1 00:00:02,240 --> 00:00:05,360 Speaker 1: Hi, it's Westkasova. The Big Take is taking a break 2 00:00:05,400 --> 00:00:08,280 Speaker 1: this week, so here's an episode you might have missed. 3 00:00:16,160 --> 00:00:18,040 Speaker 1: You may remember a couple of years ago there were 4 00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:20,800 Speaker 1: all these news stories in the US about people going 5 00:00:20,840 --> 00:00:24,560 Speaker 1: to start their cars and finding thieves had stolen their 6 00:00:24,560 --> 00:00:28,200 Speaker 1: catalytic converter. And then tons of videos popped up on 7 00:00:28,240 --> 00:00:32,240 Speaker 1: YouTube and the evening news. They showed people brazenly crawling 8 00:00:32,320 --> 00:00:36,280 Speaker 1: under cars in parking lots and sawing off catalytic converters 9 00:00:36,400 --> 00:00:37,400 Speaker 1: in broad daylight. 10 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:40,920 Speaker 2: These sixteen cars at Drivers Village in Cicero are now 11 00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:43,839 Speaker 2: sitting in park after two sneaky thieves stole each of 12 00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:45,680 Speaker 2: the vehicle's catalytic converters. 13 00:00:45,840 --> 00:00:48,640 Speaker 3: Back in mat Onya, this crew was captured on camera 14 00:00:48,800 --> 00:00:51,440 Speaker 3: by the car's owner. Look at them, jack up the 15 00:00:51,520 --> 00:00:54,040 Speaker 3: car and off they go. The owner said they had 16 00:00:54,080 --> 00:00:55,680 Speaker 3: a catalytic converter in the hand. 17 00:00:55,960 --> 00:01:00,200 Speaker 2: Turns out, unfortunately, even police vehicles are not safe from 18 00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:01,800 Speaker 2: catalytic converter thieves. 19 00:01:02,360 --> 00:01:05,120 Speaker 1: It was happening all over the country, and it kept happening. 20 00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:09,720 Speaker 1: That made Bloomberg BusinessWeek contributor Evan Ratleff wonder was this 21 00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:12,720 Speaker 1: just an uptick in petty crime? Or was there something 22 00:01:12,760 --> 00:01:15,680 Speaker 1: more going on here? So he went to find out 23 00:01:16,480 --> 00:01:19,680 Speaker 1: the short answer, yeah, there was a lot more going 24 00:01:19,720 --> 00:01:20,160 Speaker 1: on here. 25 00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:23,360 Speaker 4: People are bringing U hauls and trucks full of them, 26 00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:25,640 Speaker 4: and you know, they stand there and they price them out, 27 00:01:25,840 --> 00:01:30,520 Speaker 4: they pay them in cash, and then they're gone. 28 00:01:35,480 --> 00:01:38,800 Speaker 1: I'm West Casova today on the big take, Your catalytic 29 00:01:38,880 --> 00:01:43,440 Speaker 1: converter is worth its weight in gold or platinum to 30 00:01:43,480 --> 00:01:52,760 Speaker 1: be per sixt Evan. What is a catalytic converter. 31 00:01:53,520 --> 00:01:58,680 Speaker 4: Well, a catalytic converter is essentially a device, mechanical device. 32 00:01:58,840 --> 00:02:02,920 Speaker 4: Before your exams pipe, there's this little structure. It's like 33 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:06,520 Speaker 4: a fat pipe connected to skinny pipes. So inside the 34 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:09,400 Speaker 4: fat pipe there's what they call in the trade a core. 35 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:10,680 Speaker 3: It's usually like a. 36 00:02:10,600 --> 00:02:12,960 Speaker 4: Ceramic core, or they call it a honeycomb core because 37 00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:15,320 Speaker 4: it sort of looks like a honeycomb from a beehive. 38 00:02:15,880 --> 00:02:19,519 Speaker 4: And inside of that there are catalysts. And what those 39 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:23,079 Speaker 4: catalysts do is they clean the exhaust coming from your 40 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:26,079 Speaker 4: engine before it exits the tailpipe. So it takes really 41 00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:30,840 Speaker 4: horrible gases like nitrous oxide and carbon monoxide and converts 42 00:02:30,880 --> 00:02:34,880 Speaker 4: them to relatively harmless gases, including carbon dioxide, which is 43 00:02:35,200 --> 00:02:38,480 Speaker 4: not harmless to the environment but in terms of smog 44 00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:42,440 Speaker 4: and ground pollution. So the catalytic converter serves this important 45 00:02:42,639 --> 00:02:47,960 Speaker 4: function and the actual catalyst the chemical reactions are catalyzed 46 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:51,520 Speaker 4: by these three metals that are included in a catalytic converter, 47 00:02:51,639 --> 00:02:54,960 Speaker 4: which are roodium, palladium, and platinum. They're part of this 48 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:58,120 Speaker 4: group called platinum group metals or PGMs. You'll hear all 49 00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:00,880 Speaker 4: the time PGMs in terms of catalytic convert and so 50 00:03:01,320 --> 00:03:04,200 Speaker 4: those metals exist in sort of trace amounts less than 51 00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:07,919 Speaker 4: a quarter ounce in inside a catalytic converter, and that 52 00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:11,320 Speaker 4: is where the value lies for someone trying to steal 53 00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:12,160 Speaker 4: a converter. 54 00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:16,720 Speaker 1: And what's so fascinating about that is, for a lot 55 00:03:16,720 --> 00:03:19,320 Speaker 1: of years, as you say, like trace amounts of these 56 00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:21,600 Speaker 1: metal e who cares they go to the junk yard, 57 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:24,400 Speaker 1: No one give them a second thought, or maybe scrap 58 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:26,800 Speaker 1: metal places would take come and see what they could get. 59 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:29,040 Speaker 1: But that changed during the pandemic. 60 00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:33,360 Speaker 4: Right, the metal prices fluctuate on the open market, and 61 00:03:33,760 --> 00:03:37,600 Speaker 4: they're pretty rare metals, especially palladium and rodium, Platinum a 62 00:03:37,640 --> 00:03:41,000 Speaker 4: little less so, but platium and rodium are hard to mine, 63 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:43,440 Speaker 4: their kind of byproducts of platinum mines and other minds, 64 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:47,000 Speaker 4: so in pre pandemic times they just weren't worth all 65 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:47,480 Speaker 4: that much. 66 00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:50,800 Speaker 3: And then the pandemic struck, a lot of the mines. 67 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:53,640 Speaker 4: Were closed, particularly in South Africa, which is the predominant 68 00:03:53,680 --> 00:03:56,560 Speaker 4: place where these metals are mined, and there were also 69 00:03:56,960 --> 00:04:01,080 Speaker 4: infrastructure logistics problems, supply chain problems, so the prices shot up. 70 00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:04,080 Speaker 4: Of the metals shut up in an extraordinary way in 71 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:07,600 Speaker 4: some cases. So as the prices started going up, it 72 00:04:07,640 --> 00:04:11,040 Speaker 4: became more and more valuable to have a catalytic converter, 73 00:04:11,200 --> 00:04:14,360 Speaker 4: so those prices went up correspondingly, because if you have 74 00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:18,640 Speaker 4: a used catalytic converter, you can, through a pretty complicated process, 75 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:21,360 Speaker 4: extract the metals and sell them back to the market. 76 00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:24,920 Speaker 1: So Evan, you said, when you first started looking into this, 77 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:27,640 Speaker 1: it was kind of a local crime. But then you 78 00:04:27,640 --> 00:04:30,279 Speaker 1: started looking a little deeper, and that's when you found, No, 79 00:04:30,920 --> 00:04:32,960 Speaker 1: those people on the street are the beginning of this 80 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:38,640 Speaker 1: really big long global supply chain for the metals inside 81 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:39,800 Speaker 1: these converters. 82 00:04:40,520 --> 00:04:43,920 Speaker 4: The place where I really discovered that this was a 83 00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:48,080 Speaker 4: much bigger story. I was actually piggybacking on the back 84 00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:51,960 Speaker 4: of an investigation that was started by the police department 85 00:04:52,080 --> 00:04:55,839 Speaker 4: in Tulsa, Oklahoma. And in Tulsa they had the same 86 00:04:55,880 --> 00:04:58,080 Speaker 4: problem they had all over the United States, which is 87 00:04:58,160 --> 00:05:01,320 Speaker 4: there were a lot more catalytic convert beginning in twenty twenty. 88 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:03,160 Speaker 4: They tried to figure out what to do about it, 89 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:08,360 Speaker 4: and within the Tulsa PD, there was one particular detective 90 00:05:08,640 --> 00:05:12,719 Speaker 4: who decided that not only should they look at the 91 00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:15,680 Speaker 4: local thefts and what they call cutters, people cutting them 92 00:05:15,680 --> 00:05:18,839 Speaker 4: off the cars, but also where did they all go, 93 00:05:19,160 --> 00:05:21,400 Speaker 4: Like where were they selling them, where was the money 94 00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:25,920 Speaker 4: coming from? And he started investigation where they ended up 95 00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:29,640 Speaker 4: investigating the whole supply chain of these stolen converters. And 96 00:05:29,680 --> 00:05:32,200 Speaker 4: so I sort of decided to tell the story of 97 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:33,440 Speaker 4: how that developed. 98 00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:38,440 Speaker 1: So your story starts at in Tulsa, Oklahoma, and it's 99 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:42,160 Speaker 1: with a traffic stop, right like so many other stories 100 00:05:42,279 --> 00:05:43,280 Speaker 1: like this begin. 101 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:46,880 Speaker 4: Yeah, basically pretty routine traffic stop. Someone called in. It 102 00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:49,679 Speaker 4: was actually an off duty cops saw a pickup truck 103 00:05:49,680 --> 00:05:53,160 Speaker 4: full of catalytic converters called it in. Because after all 104 00:05:53,160 --> 00:05:55,880 Speaker 4: these thefts started happening, it became suspicious to be driving 105 00:05:55,920 --> 00:05:57,800 Speaker 4: around with a bunch of catalytic converters in the back 106 00:05:57,839 --> 00:05:59,240 Speaker 4: of the truck. It turned out there were one hundred 107 00:05:59,279 --> 00:06:02,200 Speaker 4: and twenty something in there. They pulled the truck over. 108 00:06:02,480 --> 00:06:05,200 Speaker 4: At the wheel was a guy named Tyler Curtis. And 109 00:06:05,320 --> 00:06:08,000 Speaker 4: Tyler Curtis's I think at the time he was maybe 110 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:09,359 Speaker 4: twenty four twenty five. 111 00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:11,719 Speaker 3: He had grown. 112 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:14,440 Speaker 4: Up in Oklahoma and he had gotten into the catalytic 113 00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:17,880 Speaker 4: converter business. And when he was pulled over, what he 114 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:20,240 Speaker 4: said in response to why do you have all these 115 00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:24,240 Speaker 4: catalytic converters was I'm a legitimate catalytic converter dealer. I'm 116 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:27,000 Speaker 4: a scrap metal dealer. And they didn't actually charge him 117 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:29,320 Speaker 4: with the catalytic converters. He happened to also have a 118 00:06:29,320 --> 00:06:32,200 Speaker 4: small amount of drugs in his car and an unlicensed gun, 119 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:34,000 Speaker 4: so they charged him with that, but they didn't charge 120 00:06:34,080 --> 00:06:37,760 Speaker 4: him with the catalytic converters. That traffic stop was sort 121 00:06:37,800 --> 00:06:41,520 Speaker 4: of the beginning of tracing this whole network because of 122 00:06:41,520 --> 00:06:43,840 Speaker 4: what they found out about Tyler Curtis. 123 00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:46,640 Speaker 1: Next, and so Curtis really did have this business. 124 00:06:47,240 --> 00:06:49,040 Speaker 4: Yeah, And that's one of the tricky things about this 125 00:06:49,160 --> 00:06:52,440 Speaker 4: whole industry was that Tyler Curtis had actually worked. He 126 00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:55,360 Speaker 4: had learned about the business at a legitimate scrap metal 127 00:06:55,400 --> 00:07:00,880 Speaker 4: recycling catalytic converter recycling outfit outside of Tulsa, and that's 128 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:03,080 Speaker 4: where he learned the business. And then he said, wow, 129 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:05,839 Speaker 4: this business is booming. He started his own business. But 130 00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:09,040 Speaker 4: the question with catalytic converters is how much due diligence 131 00:07:09,080 --> 00:07:11,920 Speaker 4: are you doing when people show up with these catalytic converters. 132 00:07:12,320 --> 00:07:15,680 Speaker 4: And if someone shows up with the truckload, then if 133 00:07:15,680 --> 00:07:18,200 Speaker 4: they don't have paperwork, they don't show where they came from, 134 00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:21,840 Speaker 4: you might be buying stolen converters. Now, what the authorities 135 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:24,680 Speaker 4: allege was that Tyler Curtis and the people up the 136 00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:28,920 Speaker 4: chain from him, they really leaned into buying from anyone, 137 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:33,440 Speaker 4: no matter how sketchy, even encouraging people to bring stolen 138 00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:37,400 Speaker 4: catalytic converters. That's the allegation. But it's very difficult to 139 00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:40,040 Speaker 4: tell if you just look at the catalytic converters where 140 00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:44,040 Speaker 4: they came from. 141 00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:46,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, let's talk about that for a minute, because we 142 00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:48,440 Speaker 1: talked about how you get underneath the caring and take 143 00:07:48,480 --> 00:07:50,320 Speaker 1: this thing off, but how do you take off a 144 00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:52,320 Speaker 1: catalytic converter if you're going to steal one. 145 00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:55,360 Speaker 4: Usually if they're going to steal one, they will pull 146 00:07:55,480 --> 00:07:57,440 Speaker 4: up to a parking lot driveway. 147 00:07:57,680 --> 00:07:58,640 Speaker 3: Someone will hop out. 148 00:07:58,880 --> 00:08:01,200 Speaker 4: They'll have a jack, like a hydraulic jack, or at 149 00:08:01,240 --> 00:08:04,080 Speaker 4: least a floor jack. They'll jack up the car really quickly, 150 00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:07,560 Speaker 4: crawl underneath, take out what's called a sawzle, which is 151 00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:11,040 Speaker 4: a reticular saw. It's a handheld battery powered saw, and 152 00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:13,680 Speaker 4: they'll saw the pipe on either end of the converter 153 00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:15,240 Speaker 4: and then they'll pull it out. They can do it 154 00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:17,240 Speaker 4: in a couple minutes, throw in the back of the car, 155 00:08:17,560 --> 00:08:18,160 Speaker 4: drive off. 156 00:08:18,520 --> 00:08:19,880 Speaker 3: That's the standard theft. 157 00:08:20,040 --> 00:08:22,720 Speaker 4: But once you have it off the car, there's actually 158 00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:25,720 Speaker 4: no indication where it came from. You cannot look at 159 00:08:25,760 --> 00:08:28,920 Speaker 4: a catalytic converter and say it came from this specific car. 160 00:08:29,320 --> 00:08:31,000 Speaker 3: You can say the make and model. 161 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:34,000 Speaker 4: They have a parts number essentially that you can use 162 00:08:34,040 --> 00:08:36,400 Speaker 4: to figure out, oh, this was from a Toyota Tundra, 163 00:08:36,520 --> 00:08:38,000 Speaker 4: this was from a Toyota Prius. 164 00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:41,160 Speaker 1: There's not only a VIN number on the converter. 165 00:08:41,160 --> 00:08:44,160 Speaker 3: There's not They don't come with that. So that means 166 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:45,560 Speaker 3: if you have a. 167 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:48,520 Speaker 4: Whole box full or truck full or warehouse full of 168 00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:52,280 Speaker 4: catalytic converters. Someone can't go through them and say, oh, 169 00:08:52,320 --> 00:08:54,360 Speaker 4: these are stolen in these aren't now. A lot of 170 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:57,640 Speaker 4: cops will say I can tell because they're rough cut, 171 00:08:57,679 --> 00:08:59,400 Speaker 4: which means they look like they were cut with a 172 00:08:59,440 --> 00:09:03,120 Speaker 4: saw instead of unbolted from the car. But the reality 173 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:05,960 Speaker 4: is a lot of junk yards where they legitimately cut 174 00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:06,320 Speaker 4: them off. 175 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:07,480 Speaker 3: They also use sazzles. 176 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:10,400 Speaker 4: They might cut it a little more carefully, but it's 177 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:13,000 Speaker 4: very difficult to sort of take someone in a serious 178 00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:15,320 Speaker 4: case in front of a court and use like the 179 00:09:15,480 --> 00:09:18,240 Speaker 4: saw mark as the evidence that you're using to try 180 00:09:18,280 --> 00:09:20,280 Speaker 4: to put them away, right, because if it's in. 181 00:09:20,280 --> 00:09:22,160 Speaker 1: A junkyard and the car is junked anyway, and you 182 00:09:22,280 --> 00:09:24,800 Speaker 1: legitimately want to get the kind of a converter, why 183 00:09:24,880 --> 00:09:27,280 Speaker 1: would you take time to carefully unbolt the thing. Just 184 00:09:27,480 --> 00:09:28,120 Speaker 1: take it off. 185 00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:30,880 Speaker 4: Yeah, all they're going to do is recycle it. They're 186 00:09:30,880 --> 00:09:34,040 Speaker 4: going to crush it and take the inner core dust out, 187 00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:38,319 Speaker 4: and that's going to be smelted and eventually refined back 188 00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:39,000 Speaker 4: into the metals. 189 00:09:39,040 --> 00:09:40,880 Speaker 3: So it doesn't matter how you cut it. 190 00:09:41,400 --> 00:09:43,760 Speaker 4: And not only is that a legitimate business, it's an 191 00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:46,640 Speaker 4: important business, like the recycling of these metals is actually 192 00:09:46,760 --> 00:09:50,520 Speaker 4: very important, and I think a quarter of all PGMs 193 00:09:50,600 --> 00:09:53,480 Speaker 4: are actually recycled, and it should be more. 194 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:56,400 Speaker 3: And so you have this strange mixture of this. 195 00:09:56,480 --> 00:10:00,080 Speaker 4: Legitimacy and then the illegal side of it, kind of 196 00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:02,439 Speaker 4: infiltrating into a legitimate business. 197 00:10:03,160 --> 00:10:07,280 Speaker 1: And that's exactly what drew you to Tyler Curtis. He's 198 00:10:07,400 --> 00:10:10,760 Speaker 1: running this business and the converters he's getting are probably 199 00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:13,480 Speaker 1: coming from all kinds of places, but the cops are 200 00:10:13,480 --> 00:10:16,440 Speaker 1: really suspicious, and so they decide, all right, we're going 201 00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:17,480 Speaker 1: to put our eyes on this guy. 202 00:10:18,559 --> 00:10:18,880 Speaker 3: Yeah. 203 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:21,640 Speaker 4: I mean they get suspicious of Tyler Curtis in part 204 00:10:21,720 --> 00:10:24,800 Speaker 4: because they started arresting a lot of cutters street cutters, 205 00:10:24,800 --> 00:10:27,640 Speaker 4: people who they catch cutting them off cars. And some 206 00:10:27,679 --> 00:10:31,120 Speaker 4: of those people lead them to another intermediate buyer. They're 207 00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:34,240 Speaker 4: selling to a guy, and that guy shows up at 208 00:10:34,280 --> 00:10:36,600 Speaker 4: Tyler Curtis's place. So they put a GPS on this 209 00:10:36,640 --> 00:10:38,679 Speaker 4: guy's car, and he shows up at Tyler Curtis's place 210 00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:40,920 Speaker 4: and they say, well, maybe Tyler Curtis is bigger than 211 00:10:40,920 --> 00:10:41,319 Speaker 4: we thought. 212 00:10:41,880 --> 00:10:44,920 Speaker 3: They get a warrant for his iPhone and iPad. 213 00:10:44,880 --> 00:10:48,120 Speaker 4: And then they discover oh, he's got links to some 214 00:10:48,400 --> 00:10:53,200 Speaker 4: larger network allegedly, and then they get a warrant for 215 00:10:53,280 --> 00:10:55,880 Speaker 4: what's called a pole camera, which is like it sounds 216 00:10:55,960 --> 00:10:58,720 Speaker 4: a camera that you put on a pole, but surreptitiously, 217 00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:01,480 Speaker 4: so probably like a utility guy goes out and climbs 218 00:11:01,480 --> 00:11:03,920 Speaker 4: a pole, puts it outside of his place, and then 219 00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:07,800 Speaker 4: they're watching his facility twenty four hours a day, and 220 00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:08,880 Speaker 4: they start to see. 221 00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:10,600 Speaker 3: The volume that are coming in. 222 00:11:11,160 --> 00:11:14,120 Speaker 4: Pickup trucks pulling up, U haul's pulling up, people with 223 00:11:14,200 --> 00:11:17,360 Speaker 4: trailers attached pulling up, and they've got fifty one hundred 224 00:11:17,559 --> 00:11:21,679 Speaker 4: two hundred converters in the back and he's pricing them, 225 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:23,960 Speaker 4: or someone he works for him is pricing them. They're 226 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:28,000 Speaker 4: paying them in cash, and they eventually calculate that he's 227 00:11:28,040 --> 00:11:31,960 Speaker 4: handling five thousand to six thousand converters per week. 228 00:11:32,320 --> 00:11:35,319 Speaker 3: So that's just people showing up pretty much all the. 229 00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:38,800 Speaker 4: Time with loads of converters. So he's really running a 230 00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:43,080 Speaker 4: booming business. There's millions of dollars coming through. And the 231 00:11:43,160 --> 00:11:45,360 Speaker 4: crazy thing is that all of it is in cash, 232 00:11:45,559 --> 00:11:48,560 Speaker 4: Like they're really operating in cash. It's a cash business. 233 00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:51,640 Speaker 4: And so now that's not all profit he's not making 234 00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:53,839 Speaker 4: millions of dollars of profit, but he's in the seven 235 00:11:53,880 --> 00:11:57,320 Speaker 4: to eight figures range in terms of what he's doing 236 00:11:57,400 --> 00:12:00,360 Speaker 4: over the course of less than a year. So that's 237 00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:02,280 Speaker 4: a lot of cash that you need to be dealing 238 00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:04,080 Speaker 4: with and have around all the time. 239 00:12:06,280 --> 00:12:09,119 Speaker 1: So Tulsa is in a very big place. These converters 240 00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:11,200 Speaker 1: have to be coming from all over the place. 241 00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:15,160 Speaker 4: Then, yeah, they quickly discover that they're coming from all 242 00:12:15,200 --> 00:12:19,640 Speaker 4: over the Southwest. They're coming from Texas, they're coming from Oklahoma, obviously, 243 00:12:19,679 --> 00:12:22,240 Speaker 4: but they're coming from the Midwest, like some from California. 244 00:12:22,760 --> 00:12:25,400 Speaker 4: Like they're driving in. People are bringing U hauls and 245 00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:28,040 Speaker 4: trucks full of them, and you know, they stand there 246 00:12:28,080 --> 00:12:30,439 Speaker 4: and they price them out, they pay them in cash, 247 00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:35,080 Speaker 4: and then they're gone. So then it creates this additional question, well, 248 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:35,800 Speaker 4: where's all this. 249 00:12:35,880 --> 00:12:37,000 Speaker 3: Cash coming from? 250 00:12:37,520 --> 00:12:39,440 Speaker 4: And one of the things they discover is that they're 251 00:12:39,480 --> 00:12:42,960 Speaker 4: packaging them up in these boxes and then shipping them 252 00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:45,000 Speaker 4: to New Jersey. 253 00:12:45,040 --> 00:12:48,480 Speaker 1: After the break, what happened to those catalytic converters in 254 00:12:48,559 --> 00:13:00,760 Speaker 1: New Jersey? Evan, So the cops are now tracing up 255 00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:03,080 Speaker 1: the chain. I think the phrase you use in the 256 00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:05,520 Speaker 1: pieces that they wanted to kind of get the head 257 00:13:05,559 --> 00:13:06,160 Speaker 1: of the snake. 258 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:10,600 Speaker 4: Yeah, that's what the detective in Tulsa PD, whose name, 259 00:13:10,760 --> 00:13:14,119 Speaker 4: by the way is Kansas Core, which is an incredible 260 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:18,200 Speaker 4: name for someone who's investigating catalytic converter theft, where the 261 00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:21,320 Speaker 4: prize thing that you're getting is the core and everyone 262 00:13:21,400 --> 00:13:24,040 Speaker 4: calls it the core in the business. So Kansas Corps 263 00:13:24,120 --> 00:13:26,800 Speaker 4: was the person who really spearheaded the investigation out of 264 00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:30,280 Speaker 4: Tulsa PD. He was the person who essentially said, like, 265 00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:32,920 Speaker 4: we can get to the top, and yeah, his superior 266 00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:35,559 Speaker 4: told me, we want to cut the head off the snake. 267 00:13:36,480 --> 00:13:42,400 Speaker 1: So Kansas Core traces these catalytic converters from Tulsa to 268 00:13:42,520 --> 00:13:44,559 Speaker 1: New Jersey and what do they find there? 269 00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:45,920 Speaker 3: In New Jersey? 270 00:13:45,960 --> 00:13:49,880 Speaker 4: They found this company called DJ Auto, which was operated 271 00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:53,280 Speaker 4: by a pair of brothers. The older one, his name 272 00:13:53,360 --> 00:13:56,640 Speaker 4: is Lovin Kanna. Lovin's sort of his nickname, everyone calls him. 273 00:13:56,840 --> 00:13:59,000 Speaker 4: And the two of them had been in the scrap 274 00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:01,480 Speaker 4: metal business for a lot long time, you know, recycling 275 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:05,640 Speaker 4: all kinds of things, batteries, air conditioners, that sort of thing, 276 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:10,440 Speaker 4: and they shifted into entirely dealing with catalytic converters in 277 00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:13,120 Speaker 4: twenty twenty when the prices went up and it was 278 00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:16,400 Speaker 4: clear that this was a huge business. And then pretty 279 00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:20,480 Speaker 4: quickly they started receiving converters from all around the country. 280 00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:23,880 Speaker 4: So they figured out how to sort of network with 281 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:27,680 Speaker 4: regional players like a Tyler Curtis, who would sort of 282 00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:30,560 Speaker 4: gather up all the local catalytic converters, put them in 283 00:14:30,560 --> 00:14:33,880 Speaker 4: a box, ship a bunch of palettes of those catalytic 284 00:14:33,880 --> 00:14:36,480 Speaker 4: converters to them in New Jersey, and then they would 285 00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:39,680 Speaker 4: take it the next step. They built a significant business, 286 00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:43,440 Speaker 4: not just selling the converters, but also this app that 287 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:47,040 Speaker 4: they launched where you could price catalytic converters. So one 288 00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:50,000 Speaker 4: of the hard things about legitimate or illegitimate business in 289 00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:53,440 Speaker 4: catalytic converters is that the metal prices fluctuate, so by 290 00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:55,760 Speaker 4: the time you go to sell it, the price may 291 00:14:55,800 --> 00:14:59,200 Speaker 4: be different than when you either obtained it legally or 292 00:14:59,240 --> 00:15:02,280 Speaker 4: stole it, and so on their app, you could actually 293 00:15:02,360 --> 00:15:05,280 Speaker 4: check the prices day by day. You could even lock 294 00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:07,080 Speaker 4: in prices, so you could say I want to lock 295 00:15:07,120 --> 00:15:09,920 Speaker 4: in this many converters at this price. It's called hedging, 296 00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:12,480 Speaker 4: so if the price goes down, then you're good and 297 00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:14,920 Speaker 4: you're not going to lose your shirt over whatever lot 298 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:18,440 Speaker 4: you have of catalytic converters. So they were sophisticated operation. 299 00:15:18,880 --> 00:15:22,480 Speaker 4: And they also were just making money hand over fist. 300 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:24,200 Speaker 4: I mean, this is where the money gets really big. 301 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:28,440 Speaker 4: We're talking five hundred and forty five million dollars alleged 302 00:15:28,640 --> 00:15:32,680 Speaker 4: by the Justice Department over the course of essentially less 303 00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:33,440 Speaker 4: than three years. 304 00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:34,560 Speaker 3: Again in revenue. 305 00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:36,880 Speaker 4: That's not their profits, but that's the amount of cash 306 00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:38,560 Speaker 4: that was passing through this business. 307 00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:45,840 Speaker 1: And so they were getting these converters from all over, 308 00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:50,440 Speaker 1: like when Kansas Core is talking about trying to trace 309 00:15:50,640 --> 00:15:52,800 Speaker 1: up the line. So you have these guys who are 310 00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:56,160 Speaker 1: either selling them legitimately from junk yards or other places. 311 00:15:56,320 --> 00:15:58,800 Speaker 1: We're chopping them off cars and then selling them to 312 00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:02,360 Speaker 1: another person and then selling them to an intermediary like 313 00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:06,200 Speaker 1: Tyler Curtis and Tulsa, And there are Tyler Curtises all 314 00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:10,560 Speaker 1: over the place, and then they're all funneling to New Jersey. 315 00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:14,400 Speaker 4: Yeah, So the Conna Brothers had and Digiato, they had 316 00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:17,040 Speaker 4: a facility. I went there and I interviewed some of 317 00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:19,680 Speaker 4: the other people that worked next to it, and they 318 00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:22,120 Speaker 4: said they were just coming in twenty four hours a day, 319 00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:25,720 Speaker 4: like we're talking to tractor trailers full of catalytic converters. 320 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:29,160 Speaker 4: And also they were getting shipments through major freight companies, 321 00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:32,600 Speaker 4: so they're getting pallettes and palettes of these. Eventually they 322 00:16:32,640 --> 00:16:35,040 Speaker 4: bought a junk yard, which was a larger place for 323 00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:38,440 Speaker 4: them to receive the catalytic converters. And also a junk 324 00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:40,400 Speaker 4: yard is sort of a natural place where you would 325 00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:43,880 Speaker 4: also get legal catalytic converters, so I think the authorities 326 00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:45,640 Speaker 4: would allege that they did that kind of as a cover, 327 00:16:45,760 --> 00:16:48,400 Speaker 4: but it's a great place to receive catalytic converters. So 328 00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:50,760 Speaker 4: they had these facilities, they would receive them from all 329 00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:52,920 Speaker 4: around the country, and then they take them to the 330 00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:56,360 Speaker 4: next step, which is they have in the end four 331 00:16:56,920 --> 00:17:00,000 Speaker 4: decanning machines, which are essentially things that you take the 332 00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:02,080 Speaker 4: catalytic converter and you stick it in there and it's 333 00:17:02,080 --> 00:17:04,040 Speaker 4: like a guillotine and it slices it open and then 334 00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:06,520 Speaker 4: it crushes it and all the dust from the ceramic 335 00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:09,360 Speaker 4: core falls into a box. So then you have what's 336 00:17:09,359 --> 00:17:12,320 Speaker 4: called catalytic converter dust, which is the metals are in there. 337 00:17:12,359 --> 00:17:14,800 Speaker 4: They're amidst that dust. In fact, they have a special 338 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:17,359 Speaker 4: vacuum that vacuums up the dust that kind of drifts 339 00:17:17,359 --> 00:17:20,000 Speaker 4: into the air. Because that dust that just drifts off 340 00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:21,440 Speaker 4: of it is also valuable. 341 00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:23,600 Speaker 3: You need to collect it all. So they had four 342 00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:24,400 Speaker 3: of these machines. 343 00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:27,000 Speaker 4: They're running them all the time, and they're taking all 344 00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:29,760 Speaker 4: these converters and they're putting them in boxes and they're 345 00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:32,080 Speaker 4: sending them on to a refiner based in New Jersey. 346 00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:35,439 Speaker 4: So that's where the process kind of like moves on 347 00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:39,000 Speaker 4: to its next step. And these guys were really I mean, 348 00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:40,560 Speaker 4: they were really living the high life. 349 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:40,840 Speaker 3: You know. 350 00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:45,520 Speaker 4: They bought Ferrari McLaren, you know, the highest end cars 351 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:46,480 Speaker 4: for hundreds. 352 00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:47,200 Speaker 3: Of thousands of dollars. 353 00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:49,679 Speaker 4: They bought a big house in New Jersey on a 354 00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:53,800 Speaker 4: big plot of land, and they were basically scrap metal 355 00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:56,240 Speaker 4: dealers made good, you know, they were at the top 356 00:17:56,320 --> 00:17:57,159 Speaker 4: of the industry. 357 00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:02,560 Speaker 1: With Gigi Audo. The cops who are pursuing this case 358 00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:06,359 Speaker 1: have the same kind of question as they do with 359 00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:09,480 Speaker 1: Tyler Curtis back in Tulsa, which is, how do you 360 00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:13,280 Speaker 1: tell whether this is a legit operation? How are you 361 00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:16,440 Speaker 1: able to tell where a crime may have been committed? 362 00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:20,040 Speaker 1: So how do they start to zero in on their case. 363 00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:24,360 Speaker 4: The complicated question for the cops here is they have 364 00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:28,520 Speaker 4: some intuition that these people are dealing in stolen Caldic. 365 00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:30,280 Speaker 3: Converters, but you have to be able to prove it. 366 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:32,480 Speaker 4: And first of all, you have to prove that a 367 00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:34,639 Speaker 4: certain number of them are stolen, and then you have 368 00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:36,840 Speaker 4: to be able to prove that they knew they were stolen. 369 00:18:37,119 --> 00:18:38,560 Speaker 4: Both of those things have to be true if you're 370 00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:41,280 Speaker 4: going to win the case or get indictments. Even so, 371 00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:46,040 Speaker 4: proving that there were stolen converters in there involved essentially 372 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:50,720 Speaker 4: tracking who showed up at different places, and then they 373 00:18:50,760 --> 00:18:54,840 Speaker 4: combine that with sending confidential informants in to sell to 374 00:18:54,920 --> 00:18:57,679 Speaker 4: these places, and the confidential informance would often come in 375 00:18:57,720 --> 00:19:00,719 Speaker 4: and tell some story about how I picked these up 376 00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:03,600 Speaker 4: off a guy who he was chased by the cops 377 00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:04,840 Speaker 4: and then he hit him in the woods and then 378 00:19:04,840 --> 00:19:06,760 Speaker 4: he got him back out, you know, elaborate story about 379 00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:10,720 Speaker 4: how sketchy they were, in order to establish a sort 380 00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:14,520 Speaker 4: of trail of evidence that they were buying catalytic converters 381 00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:17,680 Speaker 4: that they knew had a sketchy origin or knew were 382 00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:18,920 Speaker 4: explicitly illegal. 383 00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:20,399 Speaker 3: You know, they were stolen out of a warehouse, so 384 00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:21,080 Speaker 3: that sort of thing. 385 00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:24,720 Speaker 1: So they sent these guys in there, and did they 386 00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:25,640 Speaker 1: buy from them? 387 00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:26,359 Speaker 3: They did. 388 00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:29,000 Speaker 4: It's hard to tell if there were more cases, and 389 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:30,800 Speaker 4: I'm sure if it goes to trial, the defense might 390 00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:33,399 Speaker 4: offer more cases where they might have rejected that. It 391 00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:35,000 Speaker 4: may be the case that they sent in a bunch 392 00:19:35,160 --> 00:19:36,720 Speaker 4: and they rejected them and they. 393 00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:37,840 Speaker 3: Said, oh, I don't want to buy those. 394 00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:41,600 Speaker 4: But they certainly were able to document cases where people 395 00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:45,720 Speaker 4: came in trying to sell sketchy converters and they bought 396 00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:48,800 Speaker 4: them all gleefully, according to the indictments. 397 00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:56,679 Speaker 1: So Evan, how did this ultimately all unravel Well. 398 00:19:56,560 --> 00:20:02,200 Speaker 4: The investigation became extremely sprawling, involved the Department of Homeland Security, 399 00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:05,640 Speaker 4: It involved police departments all over the United States. 400 00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:07,280 Speaker 3: The investigation became. 401 00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:12,080 Speaker 4: So large, so unwieldy that all of these different organizations, 402 00:20:12,119 --> 00:20:15,080 Speaker 4: these police departments and the FEDS and everyone else, the 403 00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:18,520 Speaker 4: important players, had to get together in Philadelphia for three 404 00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:21,680 Speaker 4: days to sort of plot the end game of how 405 00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:23,520 Speaker 4: they were going to take these places down, because they 406 00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:26,320 Speaker 4: had locations all over the country to sort of pick 407 00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:29,160 Speaker 4: and choose from, and they wanted to do them all simultaneously, 408 00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:31,600 Speaker 4: so they came up with a code name, because cops 409 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:32,800 Speaker 4: loved to come up with a code name. 410 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:35,400 Speaker 3: They called it Operation Heavy Metal, and. 411 00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:38,680 Speaker 4: They picked a day in early November of twenty twenty 412 00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:41,560 Speaker 4: two when they were going to take everybody down at 413 00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:46,240 Speaker 4: the same time. The day came and I interviewed actually 414 00:20:46,359 --> 00:20:50,280 Speaker 4: the next door neighbor to Tyler Curtis's business, and he 415 00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:53,879 Speaker 4: had actually rented the warehouse to Tyler Curtis and believed 416 00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:57,400 Speaker 4: from all outward appearances it's a completely legitimate business. And 417 00:20:57,960 --> 00:21:00,920 Speaker 4: he was sort of described that morning in November where 418 00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:03,040 Speaker 4: he was getting a coffee and he just looked out 419 00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:05,760 Speaker 4: his window and there was a tank outside and there 420 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:09,439 Speaker 4: were like shooters on their roof next door, and he 421 00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:13,920 Speaker 4: was sort of like, what is going on? And he thought, oh, 422 00:21:14,119 --> 00:21:16,080 Speaker 4: this guy rerounded the warehouse who must be dealing with 423 00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:18,800 Speaker 4: drugs and weapons or something. And then he sort of 424 00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:20,120 Speaker 4: went out and talked to the cops and they told 425 00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:23,000 Speaker 4: him it was catalytic converters, and he said, well, I 426 00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:25,919 Speaker 4: don't know, it seems like a little overkill with the 427 00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:28,800 Speaker 4: swat teams that they brought, but they did that all 428 00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:32,160 Speaker 4: over the country. They brought in sort of their heaviest tools. 429 00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:36,040 Speaker 4: They raided the warehouse in Tulsa. They also in Nevada, 430 00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:39,520 Speaker 4: in Wisconsin, they did a rate of Virginia. They did 431 00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:42,639 Speaker 4: multiple raids in New Jersey for the Kanas, So that 432 00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:45,720 Speaker 4: included their facility and also their home where they had 433 00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:48,000 Speaker 4: all the fancy cars and their six car garage. This 434 00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:50,480 Speaker 4: Ferrari is one of several luxury car seas from this 435 00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:53,800 Speaker 4: one point seven million dollar home. Wednesday, it's where federal 436 00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:56,560 Speaker 4: agents say DG Auto LLC is based. 437 00:21:56,640 --> 00:21:57,760 Speaker 3: You're in Oklahoma. 438 00:21:57,840 --> 00:22:00,720 Speaker 2: All raid took place at a facility and Whyner County 439 00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:01,200 Speaker 2: this morning. 440 00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:03,239 Speaker 3: Analytic converter theft ring. 441 00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:05,800 Speaker 1: This might be happening in your neighborhood, it's happening all 442 00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:06,479 Speaker 1: around the country. 443 00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:09,639 Speaker 2: One of these defendants is actually has an Instagram account 444 00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:13,000 Speaker 2: with a picture wearing a necklace with a catalytic converter 445 00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:16,040 Speaker 2: on it. So big money here, big arrests, a big 446 00:22:16,119 --> 00:22:17,240 Speaker 2: case by the Department of. 447 00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:18,840 Speaker 3: Justice around the country. 448 00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:23,800 Speaker 4: They arrested twenty one different people connected to the alleged 449 00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:28,480 Speaker 4: network and the allegations are basically like interstate stolen property 450 00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:30,400 Speaker 4: and money laundering. 451 00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:36,400 Speaker 1: And so they took Tyler Curtis into custody. 452 00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:38,640 Speaker 3: They took Tyler Curtis into custody. 453 00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:40,879 Speaker 4: Actually he had pulled out right when they came with 454 00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:42,880 Speaker 4: their raid, and then he came back maybe to see 455 00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:46,280 Speaker 4: what was going on. They arrested everybody without incident, and 456 00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:48,840 Speaker 4: then Tyler Curtis was Actually he couldn't even get out 457 00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:51,479 Speaker 4: on bail for a good five months after they had 458 00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:54,000 Speaker 4: him in, and the Connas to this moment have not 459 00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:57,240 Speaker 4: gotten out on bail. They're actually still in jail, winning trial. 460 00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:01,439 Speaker 1: Tyler Curtis was in custody but made bail and is 461 00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:04,600 Speaker 1: now out awaiting trial. What does he have to say 462 00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:05,280 Speaker 1: about his case? 463 00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:09,760 Speaker 4: Well, he's pleaded not guilty, and I spoke to him briefly. 464 00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:13,159 Speaker 4: He seemed eager to talk about what had happened. I 465 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:16,200 Speaker 4: think he does have a defense that he could put 466 00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:16,960 Speaker 4: on here. 467 00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:19,280 Speaker 3: But then when he came back. 468 00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:21,240 Speaker 4: He said that he'd consulted with his lawyer and he 469 00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:23,600 Speaker 4: had to wait till the case was resolved before we 470 00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:24,560 Speaker 4: could actually talk. 471 00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:28,720 Speaker 1: What do Tyler Curtis's lawyers say about their client. 472 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:32,400 Speaker 3: His lawyer declined to speak on his behalf. 473 00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:36,160 Speaker 1: And what about the Khana brothers, what do they say 474 00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:37,879 Speaker 1: about the charges against them. 475 00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:41,640 Speaker 4: The Kanna brothers both have pleaded not guilty in California 476 00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:45,359 Speaker 4: to the federal charges against them. Love and Kanna's attorney 477 00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:49,440 Speaker 4: emphasize that he is innocent until proven guilty, of course, 478 00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:52,120 Speaker 4: that applies to both of them, and that he has 479 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:56,000 Speaker 4: the support of the community. It's worth making sure everyone 480 00:23:56,080 --> 00:24:01,560 Speaker 4: understands that everyone involved here is not guilty until proven otherwise. 481 00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:05,399 Speaker 1: I'm curious. You have so many details about what was 482 00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:09,800 Speaker 1: going on inside the investigation and what they knew. How 483 00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:10,919 Speaker 1: do you know all this stuff? 484 00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:15,040 Speaker 4: Well, some of what I know comes from the indictments, 485 00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:18,960 Speaker 4: so the indictments are pretty detailed. But then in looking 486 00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:23,000 Speaker 4: for court documents around the case, I sort of happened 487 00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:27,600 Speaker 4: upon the reality that a number of search warrant affidavits 488 00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:32,480 Speaker 4: and seizure affidavits which are filed with federal judges, were 489 00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:36,359 Speaker 4: available through the Federal Court Document system which called PACER. 490 00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:40,159 Speaker 4: They were not sealed, and typically in cases like this 491 00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:43,760 Speaker 4: they would be sealed. And then I also spent time 492 00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:46,000 Speaker 4: on the ground in Tulsa just interviewing people and talking 493 00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:48,800 Speaker 4: to people about what Tyler Curtis's business was like and 494 00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:50,880 Speaker 4: even the Tulsa PD like what they sort of went 495 00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:52,399 Speaker 4: through in trying to figure. 496 00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:55,560 Speaker 1: It out when we come back where all that dust 497 00:24:55,880 --> 00:25:07,840 Speaker 1: ends up. So after the police had moved in and 498 00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:11,800 Speaker 1: rounded up all these people, then the question became, where 499 00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:15,720 Speaker 1: did all that dust that contained these precious metals go, 500 00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:19,040 Speaker 1: that generated all that cash that was able to pay 501 00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:21,479 Speaker 1: for these converters all the way down the line, and 502 00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:25,480 Speaker 1: that's where the next step of your story went up. 503 00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:31,159 Speaker 4: From DG, there's another organization and that organization is in 504 00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:34,080 Speaker 4: the court tak position is called a refiner in Burlington, 505 00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:38,200 Speaker 4: New Jersey, and it's actually a company called Doa that's 506 00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:42,399 Speaker 4: based in Japan, and they were buying the dust that 507 00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:46,480 Speaker 4: was being sold by DG, and their expertise is taking 508 00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:49,840 Speaker 4: that dust, shipping it to Japan where they have facilities 509 00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:55,639 Speaker 4: that smelt and then refine that dust back into pgm's 510 00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:58,399 Speaker 4: platinum group metals, which they then sell to the market. 511 00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:01,920 Speaker 4: So they're ultimately where all the science lives. That's where 512 00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:04,800 Speaker 4: they really can take the inside of a catalytic converter 513 00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:08,399 Speaker 4: and turn it back into the thing that's valuable. And 514 00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:12,320 Speaker 4: again that is an important business because the recycling business 515 00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:15,560 Speaker 4: depends on smelters and refiners being able to get the 516 00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:20,200 Speaker 4: metals out. Now, in this case, DOA was buying from DG. 517 00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:23,359 Speaker 4: I mean they were buying also some catalytic converters too, 518 00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:25,119 Speaker 4: but they were buying all this dust. 519 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:27,160 Speaker 3: And if you think about the dust, the. 520 00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:30,240 Speaker 4: Dust is so far from the catalytic converter that was 521 00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:32,159 Speaker 4: on the car in terms of what you could do, 522 00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:35,120 Speaker 4: like you literally could not possibly trace this dust back 523 00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:35,880 Speaker 4: to where it came from. 524 00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:41,480 Speaker 3: It's dust. And that company is not indicted in this case. 525 00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:44,520 Speaker 1: And we should also say that company is not accused 526 00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:49,159 Speaker 1: of any wrongdoing. Its name was redacted in the indictments 527 00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:53,600 Speaker 1: and prosecutors refer to it only as an unindicted co conspirator. 528 00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:57,399 Speaker 4: Now, I went down to the company to see what 529 00:26:57,480 --> 00:26:58,160 Speaker 4: was going on there. 530 00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:00,760 Speaker 3: I talked to and assistant purchasing manager there. 531 00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:03,000 Speaker 4: He didn't really want to talk about the business, and 532 00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:05,440 Speaker 4: he didn't really want to talk about stolen catalytic converters, 533 00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:08,200 Speaker 4: and he said we would talk more later, and then 534 00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:11,720 Speaker 4: he sent me to the press liaison, who then never 535 00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:14,800 Speaker 4: responded to any of my requests. But people in the 536 00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:19,160 Speaker 4: recycling business, refiners, everybody has this problem, which is that 537 00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:22,240 Speaker 4: if you get a box of dust that's catalytic converter dust. 538 00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:25,800 Speaker 4: There's a pretty good chance that's somewhere in there fractionally 539 00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:28,800 Speaker 4: there's a stolen converter that is part of that dust, 540 00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:32,000 Speaker 4: But how could you possibly figure out where it came from, 541 00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:34,640 Speaker 4: which one it was. And so that's where the challenge 542 00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:38,160 Speaker 4: of sort of trying to pull apart the illegal business 543 00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:40,840 Speaker 4: that's infiltrated illegal business, trying to pull it back out 544 00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:44,160 Speaker 4: becomes incredibly challenging the further up the chain you go. 545 00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:49,760 Speaker 1: So Tyler Curtis and DG Mike claim, well, we didn't 546 00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:52,520 Speaker 1: do anything wrong, we were just buying a legal product 547 00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:56,240 Speaker 1: on the market. Does that argument actually hold any weight? 548 00:27:57,119 --> 00:28:01,000 Speaker 4: Well, I think there are people in the industry who 549 00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:04,520 Speaker 4: say they're just being made an example of because this 550 00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:07,679 Speaker 4: is such a huge problem and they were dealing with 551 00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:09,520 Speaker 4: it the way everyone else was dealing with it. They 552 00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:13,000 Speaker 4: were buying a ton of converters. Yes, But also I 553 00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:15,280 Speaker 4: had one person tell me if you look at the 554 00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:18,879 Speaker 4: number of stolen catalytic converters, which is anywhere from the 555 00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:21,840 Speaker 4: low end, like sixty five thousand a year to up 556 00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:23,520 Speaker 4: to one hundred and fifty thousand a year in the 557 00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:25,600 Speaker 4: United States, and you kind of. 558 00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:26,480 Speaker 3: Run the math on. 559 00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:30,240 Speaker 4: Even if they had a majority of those that were 560 00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:34,400 Speaker 4: running through let's say DG Auto, it's still not most 561 00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:37,959 Speaker 4: of their business, like most of their business was still legal. 562 00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:42,920 Speaker 4: And so the question becomes, how many illegal converters infiltrating 563 00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:46,280 Speaker 4: your business turns you into a criminal? And I think 564 00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:49,560 Speaker 4: the law is not really set up to try and 565 00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:53,160 Speaker 4: confront that. And the industry is also struggling with that 566 00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:57,760 Speaker 4: because people in the legitimate catalytic converter recycling industry, they 567 00:28:57,800 --> 00:28:59,240 Speaker 4: also want this problem dealt with. 568 00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:01,240 Speaker 3: They don't want to feel like criminals. You know. 569 00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:02,960 Speaker 4: Some of them said, I don't even tell people what 570 00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:05,880 Speaker 4: I do anymore because people think that I'm connected with 571 00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:07,720 Speaker 4: this thing that got stolen off. 572 00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:10,120 Speaker 3: Their car in their driveway and they hate me. 573 00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:13,800 Speaker 4: And so the legal recyclers are also looking for a 574 00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:16,440 Speaker 4: way to kind of get this out of the supply 575 00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:20,040 Speaker 4: chain stream, but it's extremely difficult to do. It's a 576 00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:22,400 Speaker 4: very strange criminal circumstance. 577 00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:28,880 Speaker 1: So after this dust goes to the refiner and is 578 00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:32,480 Speaker 1: turned back into metals, what happens to those metals? 579 00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:34,720 Speaker 3: They make more catalytic converters. 580 00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:38,320 Speaker 4: That's the primary use of the metals going back into 581 00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:41,280 Speaker 4: brand new catalytic converters, which was one of the things 582 00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:44,239 Speaker 4: that really just stuck with me in the story that 583 00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:48,520 Speaker 4: if your catalytic converter gets stolen from your driveway, you 584 00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:52,600 Speaker 4: get a new one. There's some chance the actual PGMs 585 00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:55,960 Speaker 4: in your catalytic converter came from a stolen catalytic converter. 586 00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:58,800 Speaker 4: They go back on the market in a totally legitimate 587 00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:01,680 Speaker 4: market and no one knows where they came from. 588 00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:05,000 Speaker 1: Kevin, what is the answer here? You said that legitimate 589 00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:10,200 Speaker 1: catalytic converter recyclers want the shady side of the business 590 00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:13,320 Speaker 1: to be shut down. But is there an answer to 591 00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:14,320 Speaker 1: fixing this problem. 592 00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:16,240 Speaker 3: There's not a great answer. 593 00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:18,640 Speaker 4: First of all, the answers are often state by state, 594 00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:21,880 Speaker 4: so states come up with things like people can get 595 00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:24,719 Speaker 4: their catalytic converters etched with a serial number so it 596 00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:26,320 Speaker 4: is actually traceable to your car. 597 00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:27,000 Speaker 3: If it gets. 598 00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:29,440 Speaker 4: Stolen, you can bolt it on better. There's kind of 599 00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:30,840 Speaker 4: a cover that you can put over it. 600 00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:33,080 Speaker 3: But then in terms of the. 601 00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:35,440 Speaker 4: Law, you know, they always kind of fall back on 602 00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:38,800 Speaker 4: changing catalytic converter theft from a misdemeanor to a felony, 603 00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:42,520 Speaker 4: or making sure that you have to have a certain 604 00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:45,200 Speaker 4: kind of paperwork. If you possess a catalytic converter, you 605 00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:46,800 Speaker 4: have to be able to say what car did it 606 00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:49,080 Speaker 4: come from? And you have to have a license to 607 00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:52,960 Speaker 4: possess catalytic converters. But that requires all the way up 608 00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:55,400 Speaker 4: the chain people keeping track of the paperwork in a 609 00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:58,680 Speaker 4: business that when you're dealing with junk yards muffler shops, 610 00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:00,840 Speaker 4: it is kind of tough to do, especially if the 611 00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:02,760 Speaker 4: laws are different for every state. Because some of the 612 00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:06,080 Speaker 4: dealers work across many states, and one told me something 613 00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:08,600 Speaker 4: that I do in one state I can get arrested 614 00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:09,520 Speaker 4: for in another state. 615 00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:14,680 Speaker 1: I guess if you look way way down the road, 616 00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:17,040 Speaker 1: electric cars don't need catalytic converters. 617 00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:18,280 Speaker 3: That's the answer. 618 00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:22,160 Speaker 4: As long as electric cars continue their rise, maybe that'll 619 00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:26,160 Speaker 4: solve the problem, although in the meantime the problem arguably 620 00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:29,840 Speaker 4: gets worse because the higher admission standards you have, the 621 00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:32,520 Speaker 4: higher concentration of PGMs you have in. 622 00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:33,400 Speaker 3: The catalytic converters. 623 00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:36,800 Speaker 4: So as the United States and other countries institute these 624 00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:40,120 Speaker 4: emission standards higher and high and hire, the catalytic converters 625 00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:43,400 Speaker 4: become worth more, so you might have a short term 626 00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:45,320 Speaker 4: problem and a long term solution. 627 00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:48,920 Speaker 1: Evan right left, Thanks so much for coming on the show. 628 00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:50,560 Speaker 3: Thank you really enjoyed it. 629 00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:55,200 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to us here at The Big Take. 630 00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:58,440 Speaker 1: It's a daily podcast from Bloomberg and iHeartRadio. For more 631 00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:02,600 Speaker 1: shows from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or 632 00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:05,040 Speaker 1: wherever you listen, and we'd love to hear from you. 633 00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:08,560 Speaker 1: Email us questions or comments to Big Take at Bloomberg 634 00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:11,920 Speaker 1: dot net. The supervising producer of the Big Take is 635 00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:16,240 Speaker 1: Vicky Virgalina. Our senior producer is Catherine Fink. Our producers 636 00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:20,600 Speaker 1: are Michael Falero and Moberrow ruffelm Sely is our engineer, 637 00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:25,760 Speaker 1: with additional production support from Abrea Ruffin. Our original music 638 00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:29,040 Speaker 1: was composed by Leo Sidrin. I'm west Kasova. We'll be 639 00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:31,000 Speaker 1: back tomorrow with another Big Take.