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Speaker 1: Then they ultimately be Craig Council's value. Then maybe he

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Speaker 1: can talk about things in a way that would be

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Speaker 1: harder for David Ross.

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Speaker 2: Welcome into North Side Territory Foul Territory Networks Cubs Podcast.

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Speaker 2: I'm Sahadev Sharma with my partner Patrick Mooney, where your

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Speaker 2: Cubs beat writers over at the Athletic Patrick. The season

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Speaker 2: is over and the Cubs have finished with eighty three wins,

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Speaker 2: the same as last year. It's not a game or

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Speaker 2: so short. They're quite a bit short of the playoffs,

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Speaker 2: but same record, similar team, right, had different issues, but

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Speaker 2: just a you know, one of those seasons where it

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Speaker 2: like the feel of the season kind of felt the same, right, Like,

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Speaker 2: it felt like they were completely out of it. They

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Speaker 2: made a push, not as hard of a push as

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Speaker 2: last year, but they kind of duped us into thinking

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Speaker 2: they were getting back into it and then kind of

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Speaker 2: fell apart there again and ended up kind of where

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Speaker 2: you and I expected, Right. I expected more wins because

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Speaker 2: I thought they'd be in it at the deadline, But

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Speaker 2: this is kind of like the talent level we saw

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Speaker 2: as far as wins entering the season. Yeah, there's some

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Speaker 2: good stories, some bad stories, but eighty three wins season

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Speaker 2: isn't good enough.

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Speaker 1: If only we could have done one of those athletic

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Speaker 1: fly on the wall stories with David Ross. I would

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Speaker 1: love to know what he is thinking. He's been mentioned

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Speaker 1: as a candidate for the Reds job. I'd imagine what

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Speaker 1: happened this year in Chicago's would probably help or at

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Speaker 1: least not hurt his candidacy if he does elect to

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Speaker 1: manage again, Because you know, I think everyone in baseball understood.

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Speaker 3: Why the Cubs hired Craig Council. I think his resume

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Speaker 3: speaks for itself.

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Speaker 1: He's extremely accomplished, experienced, even keeled, but it made no

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Speaker 1: difference to the bottom line, which is just crazy to

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Speaker 1: think after all that, after everything the Cubs went through

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Speaker 1: this just the length of the season. You're right, they

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Speaker 1: didn't like push quite as hard, and they didn't, you know, collapse.

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Speaker 1: It was at more of a softer collapse, more of

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Speaker 1: a fade. But to wind up in the exact same

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Speaker 1: place is just hilarious. And I think there is a

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Speaker 1: level of you kind of get what you pay for.

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Speaker 1: I think I thought the Cubs might win like eighty

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Speaker 1: four games or something like that.

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Speaker 3: I did and finished like a game out of the playoffs.

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Speaker 1: Again, I didn't see these other teams in the National

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Speaker 1: League kind of taking off the way they did. But

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Speaker 1: I mean to have the Brewers just totally boat race

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Speaker 1: the National League Central did not see their dominance to

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Speaker 1: that degree. I thought they would have come back a

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Speaker 1: little bit. I thought maybe the Reds would have taken

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Speaker 1: a step forward, or maybe the Pirates.

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Speaker 3: Of Skeens would have had one of those surprise seasons.

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Speaker 3: Or I know you've always been down on the Cardinals.

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Speaker 3: You're not a Saint Louis.

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Speaker 1: Guy, But I didn't write them off as quickly as

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Speaker 1: I probably should have.

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Speaker 3: And you look at this team, this roster.

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Speaker 1: Just not a whole lot of imagination or excitement, right, I.

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Speaker 2: Think, especially at the end what you said right there, excitement.

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Speaker 2: It wasn't like there were moments and it was largely

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Speaker 2: PCA and you could say showeda as far as excitement goes, right,

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Speaker 2: And I don't want that to come across as there

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Speaker 2: aren't good players like say A Suzuki and Ian App

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Speaker 2: had very good seasons, right like you, you can't like

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Speaker 2: I I believe they're good players. Are they super exciting

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Speaker 2: to follow? Like either as a writer or as a fan, like, no,

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Speaker 2: they're not super exciting in that sense. Pca is and

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Speaker 2: Shoda has this personality that allows it to be exciting.

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Speaker 2: So so there are some aspects, but it's not. It

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Speaker 2: just wasn't that exciting of a season. Of course, when

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Speaker 2: when you fall short and for much of the season

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Speaker 2: fans aren't expecting the playoffs in ten games below the

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Speaker 2: Brewers that you know, the Cardinals probably outperformed or like

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Speaker 2: their win loss record, it tells a better story than

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Speaker 2: how they actually performed. I think that's that's an organization

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Speaker 2: that for once Cubs. Cubs fans can probably feel good

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Speaker 2: right now that they're like in a better in a

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Speaker 2: better place, and the Cardinals they're kind of at a

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Speaker 2: crossroads and I don't know what's going on, what's what's

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Speaker 2: gonna happen or where where they're gonna end up. Because

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Speaker 2: that's that's an interesting, interesting situation. But it's not like

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Speaker 2: all as well with the Cubs. It's not a perfect situation.

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Speaker 2: I will say, Patrick, Saturday, it was Saturday. Yeah, Saturday

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Speaker 2: was a great moment for the fans and for a

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Speaker 2: person and player that deserved that moment. You know, like

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Speaker 2: I Kyle hendricks Uh, We've covered a lot of players

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Speaker 2: over the years. I don't know off the top of

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Speaker 2: my head who i'd have above him as like easy

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Speaker 2: to talk to, willing to talk to in good and

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Speaker 2: bad times. Just a very normal and human person, like

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Speaker 2: very like down to earth, never talking down to you

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Speaker 2: because you're not a big leaguer or don't don't play

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Speaker 2: the game, whatever it may be. Like, never felt any

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Speaker 2: of that with him. Very just like deserved it, like

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Speaker 2: very deserving of that moment. And how he got there

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Speaker 2: was you know, I think we both thought he wasn't

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Speaker 2: going to get this moment because he was going to

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Speaker 2: be gone. Yeah, and it kind of played out in

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Speaker 2: a way that it worked out for him, right, All

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Speaker 2: the injuries worked out for him in a way, because

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Speaker 2: he would probably would have been gone, Like if there

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Speaker 2: was a roster of squeeze and they have like yeah

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Speaker 2: and they had those guys healthy, he would have been

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Speaker 2: like ninth or tenth on the depth chart and without options.

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Speaker 2: So maybe the il um for an extended period of time. Whatever,

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Speaker 2: you know, what happened happened, and Saturday was was great.

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Speaker 2: You know, he he was throwing eighty seven miles per hour.

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Speaker 2: He was getting soft contact. The wind was blowing in,

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Speaker 2: so every bit of hard contact that he had stayed

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Speaker 2: in the ballpark, and I loved that. You could kind

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Speaker 2: of telegraph the moment, at least I could, maybe because

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Speaker 2: I know him and Tommy so well. I figured Tommy

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Speaker 2: was going to go out there, and I knew Counsel

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Speaker 2: wasn't going to let him go much longer. He had

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Speaker 2: the bullpen warming up. I was like, he council gets it,

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Speaker 2: Counsels to let him go out for the eighth and

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Speaker 2: let him come off the field and get his moment.

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Speaker 2: And Tommy going out there, them hugging him, hugging all

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Speaker 2: his infielders like that was. It was really special. It

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Speaker 2: felt nice, and it was like in this season that

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Speaker 2: we just talked about for whatever five ten minutes, about

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Speaker 2: how disappointing it was. I was glad fans got that.

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Speaker 2: I was glad Hendricks got that. Obviously it'd be better

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Speaker 2: if he was walking off the field in the playoff game. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: that didn't happen, So like this was the next best thing.

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Speaker 2: He deserved that moment, How to me deserve that moment?

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Speaker 2: It was? It was fun, It was nice to be

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Speaker 2: be there for that and experience it for a guy

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Speaker 2: that you know covered his entire career and he certainly

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Speaker 2: was worthy of that moment. We get it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, to echo what you said, I think he's an

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Speaker 1: all time guy who never changed after becoming rich and famous.

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Speaker 1: I honestly can't remember a single time where Kyle veered

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Speaker 1: off of like who he.

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Speaker 3: Is as just like a decent human being.

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Speaker 1: Also, adding to your point of like there's also someone

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Speaker 1: who has an Ivy League degree and never came off

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Speaker 1: as condescen. Not just the you know, I got ten

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Speaker 1: years in the big leagues, you know what was the

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Speaker 1: last time you played. Just the intelligence in a way

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Speaker 1: that was very understated, or more very I would say,

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Speaker 1: emotional intelligence of just having you know certain people's skills

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Speaker 1: and just like a baseline of like common decency. And

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Speaker 1: I think lots of young pitchers have noticed that. And

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Speaker 1: if this is it for Kyle in Chicago, I think

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Speaker 1: the Cubs are losing one. Just that like institutional memory,

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Speaker 1: like that he played in the World Series for the

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Speaker 1: Cubs and that was something that other players gravitated towards.

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Speaker 3: Just also just like the know how of like.

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Speaker 1: Pitchers who wanted to know like Okay, what are you seeing,

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Speaker 1: how do you read swings?

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Speaker 2: How would you attack this guy.

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Speaker 1: Like the conversations, the ongoing conversations he would have I

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Speaker 1: thought were extremely valuable and could be something that kind

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Speaker 1: of carries on wherever he winds up next year.

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Speaker 2: But I don't know.

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Speaker 1: Walking through that clubhouse yesterday after the game, the end

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Speaker 1: of the season, outside of Kyle, there's just not a

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Speaker 1: whole lot of like.

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Speaker 3: What we had seen in previous seasons, right or leading

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Speaker 3: up to previous trade.

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Speaker 1: Deadlines, of just that weight of like, oh, like the

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Speaker 1: windows closing end of an era. All these emotions like

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Speaker 1: these are just like a team that was designed to

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Speaker 1: win eighty three games, won eighty three games and had

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Speaker 1: been eliminated from playoff contention a week earlier, and it

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Speaker 1: was just sort of like playing out the string.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the lack of emotion, I think is a theme

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Speaker 2: we can probably carry through into the off season. I

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Speaker 2: don't like the way teams are built now, the way

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Speaker 2: the thought processes, and like when fans talk about this,

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Speaker 2: you know, and I get sometimes you have to remove

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Speaker 2: emotion when making these decisions. But fans, fans want excitement,

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Speaker 2: fans want to be entertained, and they deserve those things, right,

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Speaker 2: That's what the sport is for. That's what all sports

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Speaker 2: are for. So when they demand Juan Soto, and you

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Speaker 2: and I are so quickly dismiss it because we know

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Speaker 2: how this is on office works, yeah, and ownership and ownership.

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Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, I shouldn't exclude them, of course. It's

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Speaker 2: just like it feels a little I don't know, I

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Speaker 2: just don't feel like that. It's I guess it simply put,

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Speaker 2: it's unfair to the fans, but it just feels like

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Speaker 2: a very cold process, and it's like, that's not financially efficient,

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Speaker 2: hence we can't do it, and that like can you

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Speaker 2: imagine THEO behaving in that manner? It like Dave Dombrowski

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Speaker 2: doesn't behave in that manner. And the Phillies are going

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Speaker 2: to their third straight playoffs. If they fall off a cliff,

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Speaker 2: they fall off a cliff, right, But the Cubs maybe

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Speaker 2: fell off a cliff or came close to it, right,

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Speaker 2: And and they gave their fans three straight NLCS appearances

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Speaker 2: in a World Series. Right. I think fans enjoyed that.

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Speaker 2: Fans enjoyed, you know you, Darvish may not have led

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Speaker 2: to like a ton of playoff success, but they enjoyed

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Speaker 2: him at his best right, So when you pay for

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Speaker 2: stars and get star performance, you are you're providing your

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Speaker 2: fans with something like even if they're not winning ninety

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Speaker 2: five one hundred games, and those teams were winning ninety

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Speaker 2: five games, remember, like the disappointing twenty eighteen season was

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Speaker 2: ninety five wins. Now eighty three wins is the norm,

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Speaker 2: and there's barely like this, like this is unacceptable behavior

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Speaker 2: outside of council finally saying it right. Council said it,

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Speaker 2: and then the players echoed it, and a you know,

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Speaker 2: lad someone did. But it's it's become a very cold

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Speaker 2: process of team building and I'm not sure if it's hard.

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Speaker 2: I don't know how fan I understand how fans struggled

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Speaker 2: to get enthusiastic about it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean just walking around Wrigley yesterday, I kind

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Speaker 1: of took a lap before going into the park, and

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Speaker 1: you know, you see the DraftKings sports book and all

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Speaker 1: these signs, you know with arrows like come back here,

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Speaker 1: you know, NFL Sundays and like if you ever like

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Speaker 1: board at work, like just google like the hotel rates

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Speaker 1: at Hotel Zachary for like a weekend series at Wrigley

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Speaker 1: or even Thanksgiving week coming up like off the charts prices,

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Speaker 1: and it just doesn't always feel like the Cubs keep

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Speaker 1: the main thing the main thing. I wouldn't say the

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Speaker 1: Cubs are cheap. I wouldn't say the Cubs are necessarily

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Speaker 1: like under funded, Like you're around the luxury tax threshold,

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Speaker 1: you should be able to put together a good baseball team.

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Speaker 2: But like.

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Speaker 3: The sense of like the Cubs going all.

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Speaker 1: Out or demanding greatness or like you know, giving their

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Speaker 1: fans an amazing product, not quite there.

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Speaker 3: Rigby Field is still the star of the show.

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Speaker 1: I mean, they drew over two point nine million fans

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Speaker 1: this year. I mean, the place looks great. It's a

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Speaker 1: probably not a better place to spend you know, a

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Speaker 1: Friday afternoon in Chicago, And but it just leads to

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Speaker 1: the sense of like it almost doesn't really matter what

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Speaker 1: they put out there. Obviously they're not the White Sox,

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Speaker 1: so they're not going to get hammered in that way.

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Speaker 1: I think they have actually a lot of competence and

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Speaker 1: experience throughout the organization that kind of keeps things on

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Speaker 1: track to where they can create this either illusion of

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Speaker 1: contention or stretches of contention. But clearly they need more

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Speaker 1: and I think then they ultimately be Craig Council's value

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Speaker 1: that maybe he can talk about things in a way

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Speaker 1: that would be harder for David Ross as someone who

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Speaker 1: had less experience.

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Speaker 3: You know, obviously played.

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Speaker 1: For different teams, but no sort of management experience outside

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Speaker 1: of the Cubs. And when you see what the Brewers

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Speaker 1: have done, you've hammered this point sadev of like it's

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Speaker 1: not a one man show. Like they do a lot

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Speaker 1: of things really really well, and they almost never ever

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Speaker 1: talk about it, so like, what what's the secret sauce?

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Speaker 1: And you know, Counsel have used it as his responsibility

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Speaker 1: to help them make these decisions, not that he has

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Speaker 1: the final call, but that you know, he's gonna be

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Speaker 1: pushing a lot of buttons in the Ringleyville office building

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Speaker 1: this winter.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean he he said it is his job, right,

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Speaker 2: Like he said, I wouldn't be doing my job if

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Speaker 2: I don't like point these things out, And he wouldn't

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Speaker 2: come out and say what the issues are. He's not

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Speaker 2: gonna tell us. He's going to keep that in house.

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Speaker 2: But he definitely saw things that need to be changed

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Speaker 2: this year. How drastic that is, I don't think it's

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Speaker 2: like insanely like, here are wholesale changes that need to

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Speaker 2: be made, but there are things that aren't being run

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Speaker 2: as well as he thinks they should be. I think

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Speaker 2: we'll start to hear about it over the coming days

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Speaker 2: and weeks. What changes he's pushing uh and has already

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Speaker 2: you know, is already making. It's it's Monday as we

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Speaker 2: record this, and you know, it's typical that there's a well,

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Speaker 2: I know that they were having exit interviews with the

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Speaker 2: players in Philadelphia right that was getting done and then

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Speaker 2: and I was glad to actually see that because I

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Speaker 2: was talking to someone about that and I was like,

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Speaker 2: it's it's interesting because far too often like they push off,

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Speaker 2: push that off, and then it's like the last day

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Speaker 2: of the season and the players are like, I'm go

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Speaker 2: into kant Kun on Monday. We were eliminated two weeks ago,

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Speaker 2: and I booked it with my family like I'm not

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Speaker 2: you know, I'm not sticking around for an exit interview,

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Speaker 2: and and good, yeah, they should enjoy their free time

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Speaker 2: with their family. But like you try and do that

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Speaker 2: over zoom, it doesn't work as well. You know that

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Speaker 2: exit interviews are important. You need honesty and you need

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Speaker 2: openness and you need to be able to, you know,

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Speaker 2: engage with that person face to face, and like whether

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Speaker 2: it's the players or coaches, Like there's really good feedback

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Speaker 2: that happens there and things. You can think one thing

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Speaker 2: going into a meeting and like it'll shift the way

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Speaker 2: the front office and manager will behave towards a situation,

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Speaker 2: right that it can completely shift thinking. So these are

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Speaker 2: essential things. And definitely changes are happening, and uh, there's

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Speaker 2: going to be more. I think it's going to be

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Speaker 2: a different for an office. It's going to be you know,

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Speaker 2: I don't know how drastic the coaching staff will change,

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Speaker 2: but there's going to be new faces around it.

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Speaker 6: There.

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Speaker 2: There almost always is. I don't really remember a year

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Speaker 2: when it wasn't like at least one small change. But

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Speaker 2: I'm that's I think of all the things that are

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Speaker 2: going to happen this winter, I think counsels impact and

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Speaker 2: his desire to make change. I'm curious what what that

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Speaker 2: will actually be. We didn't really get to see it

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Speaker 2: last year because he was hired. It was like this

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Speaker 2: month that we're entering is pretty critical to making a

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Speaker 2: lot of these moves, right, Yeah, I mean what was

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Speaker 2: it rough November six like that, so we're talking about

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Speaker 2: a really long gap. Yeah, so it's a month of

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Speaker 2: stuff that you make moves like David Ross had already

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Speaker 2: like two coaches, you know, he was making he was

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Speaker 2: in the process of hiring more people. So like there's

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Speaker 2: a lot of stuff that's going to happen over these

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Speaker 2: next four weeks and then obviously November or in December

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Speaker 2: a huge for team building. Yeah, it's it's going to

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Speaker 2: be really fascinating and his impact is going to be

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Speaker 2: I'm you know, I'm very curious to you know, eager

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Speaker 2: to pick his brain and understand how he attacks an offseason.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and he's such a like measured person, it's hard

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Speaker 3: for me to imagine him just like blowing out almost

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Speaker 3: the entire coaching staff.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and even like signing off on that. But clearly

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Speaker 1: he wasn't happy. Like he's kind of the reality check

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Speaker 1: for an organization that you know, at times kind of

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Speaker 1: puffs its chest out or has you know, a TV

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Speaker 1: on network that really like pumps up you know, the

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Speaker 1: prospects or the process and like it just you know,

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Speaker 1: we did not see a lot of like anger about

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Speaker 1: this season, right.

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Speaker 3: Of just like this is unacceptable, Like, no, it was.

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Speaker 1: They were kind of in playoff contention, you know into September,

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Speaker 1: they played.

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Speaker 3: Some meaningful games.

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Speaker 1: You have a lot of veteran players in that clubhouse

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Speaker 1: who are steady, which is good, you know, who have

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Speaker 1: extremely developed routines, which is good. But it just there

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Speaker 1: was just clearly something missing. And you know, we're not

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Speaker 1: going to go down the like theo versus Madden role,

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Speaker 1: you know, managing millennials for dummies or saying they're missing

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Speaker 1: edge urgency, but like clearly like something's off. And you

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Speaker 1: know when we talked about like energy and just that bounce,

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Speaker 1: Cody Bunger just didn't provide it this year. And it

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Speaker 1: was just not like all his fault there were injuries.

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Speaker 1: It's not like he showed up with a different attitude

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Speaker 1: or anything like that. But it's just like certain seasons

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Speaker 1: where a team just like catches fire. And they had

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Speaker 1: that moment with Bellinger last summer where it just seemed

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Speaker 1: like I think Jets said this if it seemed like

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Speaker 1: every time they needed a two out clutch hit, like

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Speaker 1: he knocked the run in and Bellinger met with the

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Speaker 1: media after Sunday's game and once again said he has

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Speaker 1: not made a decision yet on his opt in or

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Speaker 1: opt out clause in his contract. He acknowledged it's a

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Speaker 1: harder decision than last year, when it was just obvious

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Speaker 1: that he was gone.

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Speaker 3: And I think players in that clubhouse are curious, Like

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Speaker 3: I don't think they know.

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Speaker 1: I'd imagine Bellinger will take some time here, and obviously

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Speaker 1: Scott Boris heavily influence that decision. But you know that's

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Speaker 1: gonna be a really big domino to fall shortly after

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Speaker 1: the World Series of as we're trying to think through,

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Speaker 1: like what can the Cubs do? What will the Cubs do?

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Speaker 1: I mean, if Bellinger's gone, it's a lot of money

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Speaker 1: coming back to the Baseball operations budget. And if he stays,

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Speaker 1: I think they're good with it. But it does create

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Speaker 1: more of that sense of sort of running it back

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Speaker 1: and adding a picture and changing things around around the

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Speaker 1: margins and crossing your fingers with the bullpen.

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Speaker 2: Right right, Yeah, No, I think so Jed Hoyer will

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Speaker 2: talk on Tuesday. We'll obviously record a podcast soon after

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Speaker 2: he speaks, and I think that's one of the pressing

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Speaker 2: things on my mind, like how much does his decision

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Speaker 2: impact the way they look at their off season, and yeah,

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Speaker 2: that's you know, it's not a bad thing if he

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Speaker 2: opts in. It just it keeps them from being as

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Speaker 2: creative if we believe they can be super creative. It

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Speaker 2: keeps them they lose flexibility and you know, and options

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Speaker 2: to do things. I don't Again, I don't think it's

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Speaker 2: a bad thing. I just I wonder what direction they

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Speaker 2: go if if he opts in, if he opts out that,

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Speaker 2: there's so many different things they could do because they

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Speaker 2: have a center fielder they have, I mean, their outfield

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Speaker 2: is pretty much set and they have a first basement.

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Speaker 2: You don't have to worry about like, oh no, we

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Speaker 2: don't have a DH like you figure that out. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: you know, you can use so many different ways. There

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Speaker 2: are so many different ways. Then you can do that

401
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Speaker 2: if you want to put Saya there and find a

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Speaker 2: right fielder whatever. That discussion we can have over the week,

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Speaker 2: coming weeks. But yeah, tomorrow is going to be interesting

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Speaker 2: with with Jed talking. We'll have another podcast for you

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Speaker 2: guys soon after that. Jed Talking is always informative, but

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Speaker 2: it's also ripe for over analyzation in my opinion, I think,

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Speaker 2: you know and and I've probably like I've learned from

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Speaker 2: it in the sense that I think what was I

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Speaker 2: there was an off season reckoning that was supposed to happen,

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Speaker 2: and they signed Daniel descalso.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe that wasn't the reckoning. That was the somewhere

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Speaker 2: along the line the offense broke and to fix that

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Speaker 2: they signed Daniel descalso.

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Speaker 1: And then there was he mentioned the reckoning, which did

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Speaker 1: eventually come It was it was a word I think

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Speaker 1: THEO said and didn't think would be recycled constantly because

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Speaker 1: it was, but it was so perfect and apt for

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Speaker 1: the situation.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So we have to be careful not to read

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Speaker 2: into like it's so easy to read into everything and

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Speaker 2: assume we know exactly what they're going to do. I wouldn't.

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Speaker 2: I wouldn't do that. I think maybe even last year

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Speaker 2: we assumed they were going to be pretty aggressive with

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Speaker 2: their off season moves and they didn't do anything till

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Speaker 2: like January fifteenth or whatever. Yeah. Yeah, so so definitely

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Speaker 2: be careful. We will try and hold back and just

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Speaker 2: like keep it to the facts. But we'll see what

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Speaker 2: we find out on Tuesday, and we'll be back at

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Speaker 2: it podcasting for all of you. Thanks so much for

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Speaker 2: listening to Northside Territory. Make sure to subscribe, rate and review,

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Speaker 2: Subscribe to the YouTube page. Subscribe to The Athletic where

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Speaker 2: we will be on top of this cub's off season.

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Speaker 2: It's going to be fascinating, that's for sure, so follow along.

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Speaker 2: Thanks so much for listening. We appreciate all of you.

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Speaker 2: Thanks to take care,