WEBVTT - The Cod Wars

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<v Speaker 1>This episode is brought to you by square Space. Start

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<v Speaker 1>anywhere else you get your podcast. Welcome to Stuff you

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<v Speaker 1>missed in History Class from how Stuff Works dot com. Hello,

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<v Speaker 1>and welcome to the podcast. I'm Tracy B. Wilson and

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Holly Frye. When I was in Iceland back in

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<v Speaker 1>the spring, I learned a very tiny bit about the

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<v Speaker 1>Cod Wars. Uh. Long time listeners to the show will

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<v Speaker 1>probably notice some similarities between the thing that going to

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<v Speaker 1>talk about today and the Chesapeake Bay Oyster Wars, which

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<v Speaker 1>we talked about back in But while the Chesapeake Bay

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<v Speaker 1>Conflict was mostly confined to the states of Virginia and Maryland,

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<v Speaker 1>the Cod Wars were an international dispute that wound up

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<v Speaker 1>having a lot more long lasting ramifications in both the

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<v Speaker 1>United Kingdom and in Iceland. So after I got home

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<v Speaker 1>from the strip where I learned that the cod Wars

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<v Speaker 1>had happened, I put them on the potential episode list,

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<v Speaker 1>and then all of a sudden, over the last week

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<v Speaker 1>or so, multiple other people, sort of apropos of nothing,

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<v Speaker 1>said hey, would you talk about the cod wars um

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<v Speaker 1>and that included most recently Gemma and Steve. So I thought, Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>I guess I'll put cod Wars at the top of

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<v Speaker 1>the list. It had been kind of languishing there, and

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<v Speaker 1>now we're gonna do it. I do want to be

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<v Speaker 1>clear that this is definitely not the only fishing dispute

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<v Speaker 1>that has ever happened in these particular waters, but it's

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<v Speaker 1>definitely one of the most famous. Uh And in some

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<v Speaker 1>ways it's the weirdest and the most comical, even though

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<v Speaker 1>it was not actually funny to the people it was

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<v Speaker 1>happening to like it sounds funny, but a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>people's livelihoods were deeply at stake in the middle of

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<v Speaker 1>this thing that sounds sort of comedic. So to give

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<v Speaker 1>you the setup, Iceland and the United Kingdom are two

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<v Speaker 1>relatively small island nations. The UK is a little more

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<v Speaker 1>than ninety four thousand square miles and Iceland is a

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<v Speaker 1>little less than forty thousand square miles. That's about two

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<v Speaker 1>hundred and forty three thousand square kilometers and one hundred

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<v Speaker 1>three thousand square kilometers respectively. The UK, however, has much

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<v Speaker 1>more habitable land than Iceland does. The middle of Iceland

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<v Speaker 1>is mountainous, and it's covered in glaciers and also in

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<v Speaker 1>many places volcanic, so nearly all of its population lives

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<v Speaker 1>relatively close to the coast. It is completely unsurprising that

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<v Speaker 1>two relatively small island nations, one of which is only

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<v Speaker 1>really habitable along the coastline, have historically relied on fishing,

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<v Speaker 1>both as an industry and for the nation's cuisine. As

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<v Speaker 1>we discussed in our podcast about the volcanic eruption on

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<v Speaker 1>the island of Hamming, fishing is critically important to Iceland's economy. Today,

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<v Speaker 1>the fishing industry and Iceland employees about eleven thousand people,

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<v Speaker 1>which is a little more than four percent of Iceland's

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<v Speaker 1>total workforce, and the fishing industry directly contributes to about

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<v Speaker 1>eleven percent of Iceland of the icelandic GDP and indirectly

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<v Speaker 1>a full quarter of Iceland's GDP. About forty of Iceland's

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<v Speaker 1>export earnings come from fish today, with cod being a

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<v Speaker 1>primary export, and before the nineteen seventies almost nine of

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<v Speaker 1>Iceland's exports were fish. Meanwhile, Britain's fishing industry employs a

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<v Speaker 1>little under twelve thousand fishers today, so about the same

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<v Speaker 1>sizes Iceland's industry, but because the UK's population and economy

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<v Speaker 1>are so much larger, it's really a much smaller proportion

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<v Speaker 1>of the UK economy as a whole. The UK has

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<v Speaker 1>a population of sixty four million compared to three hundred

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<v Speaker 1>and twenty three thousand in Iceland. Marine fishing is about

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<v Speaker 1>zero point oh five percent of the British GDP, and

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<v Speaker 1>all forms of fishing together make up about zero point

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<v Speaker 1>zero seven percent of the British GDP. Prior to the

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<v Speaker 1>nineteen fifties, though, fishing was a much bigger part of

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<v Speaker 1>the British economy, especially in fishing ports cities like Hull,

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<v Speaker 1>Gramsby and Fleetwood. In these ports, fishing trawlers were the

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<v Speaker 1>primary employer, and most of the fishing fleet that sailed

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<v Speaker 1>from these ports did what's known as distant water fishing,

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<v Speaker 1>so boats would leave these ports in Britain and they

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<v Speaker 1>would travel hundreds of miles to fish in the waters

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<v Speaker 1>around Iceland. In addition to catching a lot of cod,

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<v Speaker 1>Brittain eight and continues to eat, for that matter, a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of cod. In the nineteen fifties and nineteen sixties,

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<v Speaker 1>four and thirty thousand tons of cod were being eaten

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<v Speaker 1>in Britain annually, overwhelmingly in the form of fish and chips.

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<v Speaker 1>Britain continues to eat more cod than anywhere else in

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<v Speaker 1>the world, a third of the cod in the world,

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<v Speaker 1>and of the cod caught in European waters. So yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>the Iceland and Britain were united by the fact that

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<v Speaker 1>there's lots of cod around Iceland and Brittain was eating

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<v Speaker 1>almost all of it, almost all the cod because fish

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<v Speaker 1>and chips. I mean, it's it's delicious and also kind

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<v Speaker 1>of astounding just how much was being eaten. Another important

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<v Speaker 1>piece of background information in all of this story has

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<v Speaker 1>to do with the idea of international waters and how

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<v Speaker 1>nations get to decide which parts of the ocean are

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<v Speaker 1>There's the idea that a nation with the coastline has

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<v Speaker 1>rights to a certain amount of the ocean around it

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<v Speaker 1>has existed for centuries, and a nation's territorial waters extend

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<v Speaker 1>a certain distance past its coast and then beyond that

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<v Speaker 1>our international waters. Starting in the seventeen hundreds, in Europe

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<v Speaker 1>and the America's, a nation's territorial waters typically extended about

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<v Speaker 1>three miles past the coastline, although there were definitely exceptions,

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<v Speaker 1>with nations claiming more or less. Prior to its independence

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<v Speaker 1>in nineteen forty four, Iceland was a part of Denmark,

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<v Speaker 1>and according to the Anglo Danish Territorial Waters Agreement, it,

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<v Speaker 1>like so many other nations, followed that three mile limit.

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<v Speaker 1>That agreement was set to expire in nineteen fifty one.

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<v Speaker 1>But when Iceland became independent from Denmark, it got to

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<v Speaker 1>work setting its own terms for where other nations could

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<v Speaker 1>fish immediately. Iceland had two primary motivations for reevaluating its

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<v Speaker 1>fishing boundaries. One was that fishing was so enormously critical

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<v Speaker 1>to its own economy that it wanted to make sure

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<v Speaker 1>its own fishing fleet had the greatest advantage. Iceland sort

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<v Speaker 1>of viewed this situation as a zero sum game. Other

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<v Speaker 1>nations that were taking fish out of the waters around

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<v Speaker 1>Iceland were taking them from Iceland because Iceland had so

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<v Speaker 1>few other industries or national or natural resources to add

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<v Speaker 1>to its economy. The other was that Iceland was becoming

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<v Speaker 1>increasingly concerned about the health of the fish stocks around

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<v Speaker 1>it and the threat of overfishing, so banning other nations

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<v Speaker 1>from fishing closer to its shores was a way to

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<v Speaker 1>try to keep Icelandic fishers fishing while ideally lowering the

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<v Speaker 1>risk of depleting those fish populations. As a result, on

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<v Speaker 1>May fifteenth, ninety two, Iceland extended the line from three

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<v Speaker 1>miles to four And this wasn't the first push of

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<v Speaker 1>its territorial water or since becoming independent, but it was

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<v Speaker 1>the first extension that affected a part of the sea

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<v Speaker 1>that Britain had been using for its fishing. Yes, some

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<v Speaker 1>of the prior extension was more to the north, which

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<v Speaker 1>was not as much of a British fishing ground. Britain

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<v Speaker 1>was not happy about this change. There was more shelter

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<v Speaker 1>available in bad weather three miles out compared to four

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<v Speaker 1>miles out. Uh And then, of course there was just

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<v Speaker 1>the principle of the thing. Britain's who had been making

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<v Speaker 1>their livelihoods through fishing for generations and who lived in

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<v Speaker 1>port cities where fishing was the biggest industry. We're basically

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<v Speaker 1>being shut out of a strip of the sea that

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<v Speaker 1>they had historically had access to. When Iceland said its

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<v Speaker 1>new line at four miles, flags flew at half mast

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<v Speaker 1>in British distant water fishing ports. The Grimsby Evening Telegraph

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<v Speaker 1>called it black Thursday. In spite of this new law,

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<v Speaker 1>the four mile zone around Iceland did not make that

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<v Speaker 1>big of a difference to British distant distant water fishing boats.

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<v Speaker 1>A lot of them had already been crossing the three

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<v Speaker 1>mile line when fish were scarce beyond it. A number

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<v Speaker 1>of captains and owners also thought that the fine that

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<v Speaker 1>came with crossing that four mile line was worth the

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<v Speaker 1>risk if it meant better fishing on the other side

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<v Speaker 1>of the line. All in all, even though there was

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<v Speaker 1>a bit of captain mouse darting around the line, British

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<v Speaker 1>captains and crews surrendered when they realized they were caught,

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<v Speaker 1>and Iceland a Coastguard personnel. We're always honest and faring

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<v Speaker 1>court cases over illegal fishing. Aside from some tomfoolery, people

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<v Speaker 1>on both sides of this dispute were generally respectful and

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<v Speaker 1>professional about it. Yeah, and in spite of all the

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<v Speaker 1>like the flying the flags that half mast and the

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<v Speaker 1>skittering back and forth across the line where people weren't

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<v Speaker 1>really supposed to be, like, you know, when the Coastguard

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<v Speaker 1>showed up and was like, you're not supposed to be here,

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<v Speaker 1>they would have been like, yeah, you're you gottus. The

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<v Speaker 1>UK also took the very reasonable of course of action

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<v Speaker 1>of taking their dispute with Iceland before the International Court

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<v Speaker 1>of Justice. When Iceland's four mile limit was upheld, Britain

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<v Speaker 1>responded by banning Icelandic fishing vessels from landing their fish

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<v Speaker 1>in Britain since Britain, as we said earlier, was buying

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<v Speaker 1>most of Iceland's cod and I mean British British cod

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<v Speaker 1>catches were not nearly enough to keep the nations supplied

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<v Speaker 1>in fish and chips. This basically was an economic santion

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<v Speaker 1>sanction against Iceland, but Iceland did not back down. And

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<v Speaker 1>this was only the first of several times that Iceland

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<v Speaker 1>would move its fishing boundary. And we're going to talk

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<v Speaker 1>about where things stopped being so sort of cordial and

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<v Speaker 1>respectful and started to really get ugly. After we have

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<v Speaker 1>enter stuff, and now you will get back to our story.

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<v Speaker 1>In nineteen fifty eight, the international community participated in the

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<v Speaker 1>first international Conference on the Law of the Sea. The

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<v Speaker 1>u n's International Law Commission had been discussing and evaluating

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<v Speaker 1>maritime international law for nearly a decade, but this was

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<v Speaker 1>the first conference that was specifically devoted to international maritime law.

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<v Speaker 1>Eighties six states participated in this conference. Fishing, we should

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<v Speaker 1>point out, was certainly not the only thing being discussed

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<v Speaker 1>at the conference. Resolutions were adopted regarding nuclear tests, radioactive

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<v Speaker 1>pollution of the oceans, and conservation, and various smaller nations

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<v Speaker 1>suggested a major expansion of the commonly used three mile

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<v Speaker 1>limit between international and territorial waters. The new proposed limit

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<v Speaker 1>a twelve mile economic exclusion zone around a nation's coast.

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<v Speaker 1>Most larger nations resisted this idea for reasons ranging from

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<v Speaker 1>economic unfairness to concerns that their navies could not effectively

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<v Speaker 1>maneuver or patrol with that much of the sea off limits. However,

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<v Speaker 1>when Iceland then expanded its exclusionary zone to twelve miles,

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<v Speaker 1>part of its argument was that that twelve miles was

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<v Speaker 1>eventually going to be international law anyway, and while that

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<v Speaker 1>previous move from three miles to four miles had been

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<v Speaker 1>met with flags at half masted in Britain's port towns,

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<v Speaker 1>the jump to twelve miles was genuinely alarming. The zone

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<v Speaker 1>between four and twelve miles from Iceland's coast was prime

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<v Speaker 1>fishing territory for Britain's distant water fishing fleet. Shutting Britain

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<v Speaker 1>out of twelve miles around Iceland had the potential to

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<v Speaker 1>completely disrupt the fishing industry. Aside from really genuine concerns

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<v Speaker 1>about the British economy, especially in these sports cities, Britain

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<v Speaker 1>was also really frustrated on principle. I understand this. I'm

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<v Speaker 1>a person who gets colossally frustrated on principle, as had

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<v Speaker 1>been the case with that four mile on the twelve

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<v Speaker 1>mile line was cutting Brittain out of waters that it

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<v Speaker 1>had historically had access to and felt entitled to. And

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<v Speaker 1>then there was an emotional way to all of it,

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<v Speaker 1>and the cities that were home to Britain's distant water

0:14:13.080 --> 0:14:16.120
<v Speaker 1>fishing fleets. Fishing was really at the heart of the

0:14:16.160 --> 0:14:20.440
<v Speaker 1>community and of people's identities, so pushing out distant water

0:14:20.560 --> 0:14:23.280
<v Speaker 1>fishing felt like it was stripping people of their way

0:14:23.280 --> 0:14:25.640
<v Speaker 1>of life and of something that they felt like was

0:14:25.680 --> 0:14:30.320
<v Speaker 1>a core part of who they were. Also, there's the

0:14:30.360 --> 0:14:34.280
<v Speaker 1>whole fish and chip thing again, which is also part

0:14:34.320 --> 0:14:38.760
<v Speaker 1>of like the identity issue. Yes, Like in the United States,

0:14:39.680 --> 0:14:42.280
<v Speaker 1>fish and chips and a lot of places they're just

0:14:42.320 --> 0:14:46.960
<v Speaker 1>like they're just sort of standard pub food, right, But

0:14:47.400 --> 0:14:50.600
<v Speaker 1>in the fifties and sixties and Britain, fish and chips

0:14:50.640 --> 0:14:55.720
<v Speaker 1>was really a working class staple and like chippies were

0:14:55.720 --> 0:14:58.640
<v Speaker 1>places that that sold fish and chips, and like there's

0:14:58.640 --> 0:15:03.920
<v Speaker 1>a whole cultural layer to the existence in the consumption

0:15:04.000 --> 0:15:07.800
<v Speaker 1>of of fish and chips that um does not have

0:15:07.880 --> 0:15:11.480
<v Speaker 1>the quite the same weight. And most of the United States,

0:15:12.040 --> 0:15:15.240
<v Speaker 1>yeah uh. And the UK was not the only nation

0:15:15.480 --> 0:15:20.600
<v Speaker 1>affected by this expansion in Iceland's territorial waters. Belgium, West

0:15:20.640 --> 0:15:23.600
<v Speaker 1>Germany and the Faroe Islands were among the other nations

0:15:23.600 --> 0:15:26.760
<v Speaker 1>fishing in that same area, But it was the British

0:15:26.760 --> 0:15:29.200
<v Speaker 1>fishing fleet that was making the most use of it

0:15:29.240 --> 0:15:32.440
<v Speaker 1>among the international community, and it was Britain that became

0:15:32.440 --> 0:15:35.880
<v Speaker 1>the most vocal in wanting continued access to that four

0:15:35.960 --> 0:15:40.440
<v Speaker 1>to twelve mile zone. Those cat and mouse shenanigans that

0:15:40.480 --> 0:15:44.080
<v Speaker 1>had happened at the four mile line kicked up several

0:15:44.280 --> 0:15:48.080
<v Speaker 1>notches in the four to twelve mile zone around Iceland.

0:15:48.600 --> 0:15:52.320
<v Speaker 1>As one might expect, Iceland deployed its Coast Guard to

0:15:52.360 --> 0:15:56.120
<v Speaker 1>try to enforce the policy, and it allowed officials to

0:15:56.280 --> 0:15:59.560
<v Speaker 1>board British ships and arrest their crews for fishing in

0:15:59.640 --> 0:16:03.360
<v Speaker 1>water where they were not supposed to be. In response,

0:16:03.720 --> 0:16:07.840
<v Speaker 1>Britain deployed ships from the Royal Navy to protect the trawlers,

0:16:07.960 --> 0:16:11.440
<v Speaker 1>essentially mandating that the trawlers fishing areas where the Royal

0:16:11.520 --> 0:16:15.080
<v Speaker 1>Navy was patrolling, and the trawlers used nets to try

0:16:15.120 --> 0:16:18.280
<v Speaker 1>to keep Icelandic inspectors from boarding, as well as spring

0:16:18.440 --> 0:16:22.240
<v Speaker 1>boarding parties with hoses and trying to use spears to

0:16:22.360 --> 0:16:25.520
<v Speaker 1>puncture the rubber digghis the coast Guard used for boarding.

0:16:26.680 --> 0:16:29.600
<v Speaker 1>When a trawler was boarded, they'd often call in the

0:16:29.680 --> 0:16:32.880
<v Speaker 1>Royal Navy to assist, and on at least one occasion,

0:16:33.040 --> 0:16:36.160
<v Speaker 1>the Royal Navy then refused to let the Icelandic Coast

0:16:36.160 --> 0:16:40.440
<v Speaker 1>Guard officials go back to their own vessel, instead kept

0:16:40.480 --> 0:16:44.720
<v Speaker 1>them on board as guests. In quotation marks of the Crown.

0:16:45.400 --> 0:16:48.160
<v Speaker 1>One boarding party was eventually put into a little boat

0:16:48.200 --> 0:16:50.720
<v Speaker 1>off the coast of Keflavik and allowed to row back

0:16:50.760 --> 0:16:55.440
<v Speaker 1>to shore there. And that's really irritated the people that were, uh,

0:16:55.600 --> 0:16:58.760
<v Speaker 1>we're working at the NATO base in Keflavik, because they

0:16:58.760 --> 0:17:00.680
<v Speaker 1>were like, what do you mean there is a British

0:17:00.720 --> 0:17:03.880
<v Speaker 1>warship right there that just dropped you off in the water.

0:17:05.760 --> 0:17:09.560
<v Speaker 1>Because Iceland had about six gunboats compared to the thirty

0:17:09.640 --> 0:17:13.560
<v Speaker 1>seven Royal Navy ships that Britain had deployed, Iceland didn't

0:17:13.600 --> 0:17:18.080
<v Speaker 1>really feel comfortable making a direct assault on the British force. Instead,

0:17:18.240 --> 0:17:21.800
<v Speaker 1>Iceland kept thorough records of the names and numbers of

0:17:21.880 --> 0:17:24.520
<v Speaker 1>all of the British ships that broke the twelve mile limit.

0:17:24.960 --> 0:17:27.320
<v Speaker 1>I kind of love fighting it with bureaucracy and I

0:17:27.400 --> 0:17:33.840
<v Speaker 1>don't even understand why. Yeah, it Yeah. This distribute wound

0:17:33.920 --> 0:17:36.920
<v Speaker 1>up being settled with a compromise in nineteen sixty one.

0:17:37.720 --> 0:17:41.240
<v Speaker 1>Britain ultimately agreed to respect the twelve mile limit and

0:17:41.320 --> 0:17:44.439
<v Speaker 1>exchanged for a three year period to phase out the

0:17:44.480 --> 0:17:47.840
<v Speaker 1>distant water fishing in the twelve mile zone. Once this

0:17:47.880 --> 0:17:51.440
<v Speaker 1>agreement was reached, Iceland destroyed all those records of who

0:17:51.480 --> 0:17:54.160
<v Speaker 1>all had been illegally fishing in the twelve mile zone,

0:17:54.200 --> 0:17:58.640
<v Speaker 1>which I also am kind of charmed by. Yes, it's

0:17:58.680 --> 0:18:01.119
<v Speaker 1>like this is going on your perman record. Okay, now

0:18:01.160 --> 0:18:05.800
<v Speaker 1>we're cool. We could get rid of that permanent record. Uh.

0:18:05.840 --> 0:18:09.000
<v Speaker 1>In the agreement, Iceland also acknowledged that it would continue

0:18:09.040 --> 0:18:12.520
<v Speaker 1>to consider extending the border even further, but would give

0:18:12.560 --> 0:18:16.239
<v Speaker 1>Britain advanced notice if this were to happen. Quote, the

0:18:16.280 --> 0:18:19.720
<v Speaker 1>Icelandic Government will continue to work for the implementation of

0:18:19.760 --> 0:18:23.119
<v Speaker 1>the al Thing Resolution of five May nineteen fifty nine

0:18:23.560 --> 0:18:28.000
<v Speaker 1>regarding the extension of fisheries jurisdiction around Iceland, but shall

0:18:28.080 --> 0:18:31.320
<v Speaker 1>give to the United Kingdom Government six months notice of

0:18:31.359 --> 0:18:35.040
<v Speaker 1>such extension, and in case of a dispute in relation

0:18:35.080 --> 0:18:38.159
<v Speaker 1>to such extension, the matter shall, at the request of

0:18:38.200 --> 0:18:43.440
<v Speaker 1>either party, be referred to the International Court of Justice. Yes,

0:18:43.560 --> 0:18:47.040
<v Speaker 1>that was basically referring to a resolution that had been

0:18:47.080 --> 0:18:49.880
<v Speaker 1>put out a couple of years before about possibly having

0:18:49.920 --> 0:18:53.360
<v Speaker 1>an even bigger exclusion zone. And then on July fourteenth

0:18:53.480 --> 0:18:56.679
<v Speaker 1>of nineteen seventy one, the government of Iceland released a

0:18:56.720 --> 0:19:00.280
<v Speaker 1>new policy statement which said, quote the fisheries agreement with

0:19:00.359 --> 0:19:03.199
<v Speaker 1>the United Kingdom and the Federal German Republic I'll be

0:19:03.320 --> 0:19:06.800
<v Speaker 1>terminated and a resolution be made about an extension of

0:19:06.920 --> 0:19:11.480
<v Speaker 1>fishery limit up to fifty nautical miles from the baselines,

0:19:11.560 --> 0:19:15.560
<v Speaker 1>effective not later than one September nineteen seventy two. So

0:19:15.600 --> 0:19:18.199
<v Speaker 1>at this point we've gone from three miles to four miles,

0:19:18.240 --> 0:19:22.240
<v Speaker 1>to twelve miles to fifty miles. Yeah, it's a big jump.

0:19:22.320 --> 0:19:25.080
<v Speaker 1>I can imagine if you are part of the fishing industry,

0:19:26.600 --> 0:19:30.320
<v Speaker 1>the knee jerk reaction could be irate at that point. Uh,

0:19:30.359 --> 0:19:32.720
<v Speaker 1>And that would explain why this is where things got

0:19:32.760 --> 0:19:36.280
<v Speaker 1>really really heated between the UK and Iceland. The United

0:19:36.359 --> 0:19:39.240
<v Speaker 1>Kingdom once again took its dispute to the International Court

0:19:39.280 --> 0:19:42.240
<v Speaker 1>of Justice in the Hague, which found in Britain's favor,

0:19:42.760 --> 0:19:46.040
<v Speaker 1>but Iceland argued that the court did not have jurisdiction.

0:19:47.280 --> 0:19:51.120
<v Speaker 1>Iceland was at this point incredibly frustrated and alarmed over

0:19:51.160 --> 0:19:55.120
<v Speaker 1>the condition of its fishing stocks. Stocks of the Icelandic

0:19:55.200 --> 0:19:59.560
<v Speaker 1>herring had dropped precipitously almost to nothing, and Iceland was

0:19:59.640 --> 0:20:02.720
<v Speaker 1>concerned learned that cod were headed for this same fate.

0:20:03.240 --> 0:20:07.399
<v Speaker 1>They had made repeated calls for international discussions on conservation

0:20:07.480 --> 0:20:10.679
<v Speaker 1>of fish stocks and sustainable fishing practices. And none of

0:20:10.680 --> 0:20:13.720
<v Speaker 1>that had gotten enough attention for Iceland to really feel

0:20:13.760 --> 0:20:18.280
<v Speaker 1>secure in the future of a nation that was basically

0:20:18.320 --> 0:20:21.240
<v Speaker 1>dependent on fishing like at this point and even still

0:20:21.280 --> 0:20:23.560
<v Speaker 1>today in a lot of ways, if the if the

0:20:23.600 --> 0:20:27.160
<v Speaker 1>fishing industry in Iceland is gone, Iceland as a nation

0:20:27.200 --> 0:20:30.879
<v Speaker 1>cannot survive. And so even though there were some nations

0:20:30.920 --> 0:20:35.119
<v Speaker 1>that were willing to talk about more conservation oriented fishing

0:20:35.160 --> 0:20:38.879
<v Speaker 1>practices at this point in the seventies, Iceland was like, no, really,

0:20:39.880 --> 0:20:41.800
<v Speaker 1>we will die as a nation if we don't look

0:20:41.840 --> 0:20:45.320
<v Speaker 1>after these fish. And to make matters worse from the

0:20:45.359 --> 0:20:48.560
<v Speaker 1>British point of view, also in nineteen seventy two, the

0:20:48.640 --> 0:20:52.000
<v Speaker 1>United Kingdom joined the Common Market, and this was basically

0:20:52.080 --> 0:20:55.160
<v Speaker 1>an approach by the European Economic Community that gave all

0:20:55.200 --> 0:20:58.240
<v Speaker 1>its members equal access to the territorial waters of all

0:20:58.280 --> 0:21:02.760
<v Speaker 1>the other members after a grace period. Iceland, not being

0:21:02.800 --> 0:21:06.000
<v Speaker 1>a member of the European Economic Community, was not affected,

0:21:06.480 --> 0:21:08.600
<v Speaker 1>but the UK was concerned about what it would mean

0:21:08.640 --> 0:21:10.800
<v Speaker 1>for its own fishing industry to give the rest of

0:21:10.800 --> 0:21:15.479
<v Speaker 1>the European Economic Community access to its fishing grounds. The

0:21:15.600 --> 0:21:19.000
<v Speaker 1>UK to the UK fishing fleet those waters off the

0:21:19.040 --> 0:21:24.200
<v Speaker 1>coast of Iceland became even more important, so the UK

0:21:24.400 --> 0:21:27.800
<v Speaker 1>once again deployed the Royal Navy to protect its distant

0:21:27.800 --> 0:21:31.560
<v Speaker 1>water trawlers. And during the previous dispute, the trawlers were

0:21:31.560 --> 0:21:34.119
<v Speaker 1>basically supposed to stick with the navy, and now they

0:21:34.119 --> 0:21:36.199
<v Speaker 1>were trying to do it the other way around. The

0:21:36.240 --> 0:21:39.159
<v Speaker 1>trawlers would go whether where they needed to fish, and

0:21:39.200 --> 0:21:43.080
<v Speaker 1>the Navy would follow them to protect them. In other words,

0:21:43.480 --> 0:21:47.240
<v Speaker 1>the UK had decided not to respect that fifty mile line.

0:21:47.760 --> 0:21:49.560
<v Speaker 1>And we're going to talk about the fallout from that

0:21:50.000 --> 0:21:52.359
<v Speaker 1>a little bit more after we once again paused for

0:21:52.359 --> 0:21:59.000
<v Speaker 1>a word from a sponsor. This is a sponsor we

0:21:59.080 --> 0:22:00.880
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0:23:40.320 --> 0:23:51.679
<v Speaker 1>me Undy's dot com slash history. The first day that

0:23:51.760 --> 0:23:55.439
<v Speaker 1>British ships made their way across the newly established fifty

0:23:55.440 --> 0:23:58.600
<v Speaker 1>mile line around Iceland, they covered up their names and

0:23:58.680 --> 0:24:03.760
<v Speaker 1>numbers on their ships and hoisted pirate flags. Iceland's coast

0:24:03.760 --> 0:24:07.439
<v Speaker 1>Guard was mostly amused at this course of action because

0:24:07.480 --> 0:24:09.879
<v Speaker 1>at this point they had been patrolling these waters with

0:24:09.960 --> 0:24:13.199
<v Speaker 1>these British trawlers for years, and they were sort of like,

0:24:13.240 --> 0:24:15.840
<v Speaker 1>do you think we really can't recognize your ship without

0:24:15.840 --> 0:24:17.800
<v Speaker 1>the name on it? Like, we know what your ship

0:24:17.840 --> 0:24:20.680
<v Speaker 1>looks like, we know who you are. It's the clark

0:24:20.760 --> 0:24:24.560
<v Speaker 1>can't glasses disguise of the sea. It was absolutely the

0:24:24.640 --> 0:24:27.119
<v Speaker 1>clark can't glasses to sect the skies of the sea.

0:24:29.720 --> 0:24:32.439
<v Speaker 1>And this time around things really did start, though, as

0:24:32.520 --> 0:24:35.439
<v Speaker 1>much as we're laughing now, they became very serious and

0:24:35.480 --> 0:24:38.760
<v Speaker 1>physical between Iceland and the UK. Towards the end of

0:24:38.760 --> 0:24:42.280
<v Speaker 1>the previous dispute, Iceland had developed a trawling net cutter,

0:24:42.840 --> 0:24:46.320
<v Speaker 1>and this was essentially a minesweeper modified with a road

0:24:46.400 --> 0:24:49.760
<v Speaker 1>grading blade that was dragged through the water behind a boat,

0:24:50.320 --> 0:24:52.879
<v Speaker 1>so when it hit the high tension trawling wires, it

0:24:52.920 --> 0:24:56.359
<v Speaker 1>would cut right through them. This was the part I

0:24:56.440 --> 0:24:58.640
<v Speaker 1>learned at a museum in Iceland, where I was like,

0:24:58.680 --> 0:25:02.200
<v Speaker 1>who the ice Slandic Coast Guard was just cutting through

0:25:02.440 --> 0:25:07.960
<v Speaker 1>trawling nets. That's fascinating. However, the cruise of the British

0:25:08.040 --> 0:25:13.000
<v Speaker 1>trawlers were horrified and alarmed at this invention. The wires

0:25:13.000 --> 0:25:16.000
<v Speaker 1>of these trawling ups. I mean, these are enormous nets

0:25:16.040 --> 0:25:18.359
<v Speaker 1>that are under the water and they fill up with fish.

0:25:18.440 --> 0:25:21.840
<v Speaker 1>They are under a whole lot of tension, so it

0:25:21.880 --> 0:25:25.119
<v Speaker 1>was within the realm of possibility that a wire that

0:25:25.200 --> 0:25:29.000
<v Speaker 1>had been cut could rebound and literally cut someone in half.

0:25:29.800 --> 0:25:33.920
<v Speaker 1>Iceland insisted that this cutting was happening far enough below

0:25:33.960 --> 0:25:36.359
<v Speaker 1>the surface of the water that this was not a risk,

0:25:36.480 --> 0:25:39.120
<v Speaker 1>and there wasn't a risk to human life because all

0:25:39.119 --> 0:25:41.840
<v Speaker 1>of this energy that was being dissipated when the wire

0:25:41.960 --> 0:25:45.840
<v Speaker 1>was cut, basically was was dissipated in the traveling through

0:25:45.880 --> 0:25:50.840
<v Speaker 1>the water. Um Even so, even if if there wasn't

0:25:51.000 --> 0:25:53.040
<v Speaker 1>a risk, and I think you can argue that either way,

0:25:53.440 --> 0:25:56.640
<v Speaker 1>the loss of the trawling net itself and of the

0:25:56.640 --> 0:25:59.800
<v Speaker 1>time and energy that you had put into putting it,

0:25:59.840 --> 0:26:02.800
<v Speaker 1>to gathering, deploying it, and whatever time you had spent

0:26:02.840 --> 0:26:06.760
<v Speaker 1>fishing with it basically meant that people were losing a

0:26:06.840 --> 0:26:12.320
<v Speaker 1>lot of work and equipment in this process. The Icelandic

0:26:12.359 --> 0:26:17.200
<v Speaker 1>Coastguard was vastly outnumbered. It had six Coastguard vessels plus

0:26:17.240 --> 0:26:21.359
<v Speaker 1>two Polish built trawlers retrofitted for the purpose. Britain, on

0:26:21.400 --> 0:26:23.760
<v Speaker 1>the other hand, had a total of twenty nine ships

0:26:23.800 --> 0:26:26.600
<v Speaker 1>earmarked for the purpose, with six to nine of them

0:26:26.640 --> 0:26:30.520
<v Speaker 1>in Icelandic water at any given time. In addition to

0:26:30.560 --> 0:26:34.680
<v Speaker 1>those frigates were seven supply ships, nine tugboats and three

0:26:34.800 --> 0:26:40.439
<v Speaker 1>artillery ships to protect its forty trawlers. Soon, in spite

0:26:40.440 --> 0:26:46.720
<v Speaker 1>of being so heavily outnumbered, Icelandic vessels started intentionally ramming

0:26:46.920 --> 0:26:50.480
<v Speaker 1>British Royal Navy ships and trawlers. That's actually there was

0:26:50.640 --> 0:26:53.040
<v Speaker 1>one collision that did lead to the death of an

0:26:53.080 --> 0:26:58.040
<v Speaker 1>Icelandic officer. Britain responded by trying to update its trawler

0:26:58.119 --> 0:27:02.080
<v Speaker 1>fleet by radio about the position of Iceland's vessels, So

0:27:02.200 --> 0:27:07.000
<v Speaker 1>the Icelandic Coastguards started recording Britain's transmissions on the positions

0:27:07.040 --> 0:27:10.320
<v Speaker 1>of where the Icelandic vessels were and then replaying them

0:27:10.359 --> 0:27:14.080
<v Speaker 1>at a later date. That's so confusion. When Britain realized

0:27:14.119 --> 0:27:16.480
<v Speaker 1>that that was happening, their ships began to spread the

0:27:16.480 --> 0:27:20.119
<v Speaker 1>word by radio to disregard the prior message. So the

0:27:20.200 --> 0:27:24.000
<v Speaker 1>Icelandic Coastguard recorded that too to replay it later on.

0:27:25.760 --> 0:27:28.400
<v Speaker 1>It's a little ghost Army esque at that point where

0:27:28.400 --> 0:27:35.400
<v Speaker 1>they're doing like these false sounds escapes and Icelandic ship

0:27:35.640 --> 0:27:40.080
<v Speaker 1>shelled a British trawler. Also in May, Iceland banned British

0:27:40.119 --> 0:27:44.280
<v Speaker 1>planes from landing at Kevlavik air Base. That October, the

0:27:44.400 --> 0:27:47.480
<v Speaker 1>UK and Iceland finally agreed to limit the number of

0:27:47.520 --> 0:27:51.359
<v Speaker 1>British ships in Icelandic waters, limit the size of the catch,

0:27:51.840 --> 0:27:57.400
<v Speaker 1>and thankfully stop ramming each other. So this is kind

0:27:57.400 --> 0:28:00.320
<v Speaker 1>of an uneasy piece that lasted for a couple of years.

0:28:00.440 --> 0:28:04.760
<v Speaker 1>But in nineteen seventy five, Iceland extended its maritime border

0:28:04.840 --> 0:28:09.520
<v Speaker 1>again to two hundred miles, so now we've gone three

0:28:09.560 --> 0:28:16.200
<v Speaker 1>four twelve fifty two hundred. Once again Britain refused to

0:28:16.200 --> 0:28:20.720
<v Speaker 1>to respect yet another expansion in the exclusionary zone around Iceland.

0:28:21.000 --> 0:28:26.160
<v Speaker 1>Negotiating negotiations really quickly broke down. Iceland threatened to close

0:28:26.200 --> 0:28:30.840
<v Speaker 1>the NATO Basic Kevlevik entirely and to end diplomatic relations

0:28:30.840 --> 0:28:35.080
<v Speaker 1>with Britain. The international community became really alarmed. All of

0:28:35.119 --> 0:28:38.080
<v Speaker 1>these conflicts were running parallel to the Cold War, and

0:28:38.120 --> 0:28:41.200
<v Speaker 1>there were some concerns that Iceland, which was strategically placed

0:28:41.200 --> 0:28:44.640
<v Speaker 1>between Russia and North America, might, under all of this

0:28:44.720 --> 0:28:48.840
<v Speaker 1>pressure and resistance from Britain just abandoned its other diplomatic

0:28:48.880 --> 0:28:54.360
<v Speaker 1>ties in favor of allying with Russia. Eventually, after numerous

0:28:54.480 --> 0:28:57.840
<v Speaker 1>rammings and even some shelling caused damage to ships on

0:28:57.920 --> 0:29:01.400
<v Speaker 1>both sides of the conflict, the Criteria General of NATO

0:29:01.680 --> 0:29:05.640
<v Speaker 1>Dr Joseph Lunz had to mediate an agreement between Iceland

0:29:05.680 --> 0:29:08.480
<v Speaker 1>and the UK, and that was signed in June of

0:29:08.560 --> 0:29:13.200
<v Speaker 1>nineteen seventy six. It upheld Iceland's two hundred mile exclusion

0:29:13.320 --> 0:29:16.480
<v Speaker 1>zone and it specified that Britain could have a maximum

0:29:16.560 --> 0:29:19.760
<v Speaker 1>of twenty four trawlers in that zone at any given time.

0:29:20.520 --> 0:29:23.920
<v Speaker 1>Conservation zones were established where no fishing would be allowed.

0:29:24.560 --> 0:29:27.280
<v Speaker 1>After six months, there would be no more fishing in

0:29:27.280 --> 0:29:30.640
<v Speaker 1>the two hundred mile zone. When those six months were up,

0:29:30.640 --> 0:29:34.280
<v Speaker 1>Britain's distant water fishing fleet was effectively put out of business.

0:29:34.520 --> 0:29:37.480
<v Speaker 1>Trawler owners were given some restitution for the loss of

0:29:37.520 --> 0:29:41.280
<v Speaker 1>their businesses, and the government had reassured the distant water

0:29:41.400 --> 0:29:45.000
<v Speaker 1>fishing industry to expect retraining for other work as well

0:29:45.040 --> 0:29:49.160
<v Speaker 1>as compensation for basically having been made redundant. However, that

0:29:49.240 --> 0:29:54.520
<v Speaker 1>support did not actually materialize. In three Britain's Fishermen's Association

0:29:54.600 --> 0:29:57.400
<v Speaker 1>was formed to start fighting for compensation, and this was

0:29:57.440 --> 0:30:00.560
<v Speaker 1>a battle that went on until July of two thousand,

0:30:00.920 --> 0:30:04.160
<v Speaker 1>when a settlement of twenty six billion pounds was was

0:30:04.240 --> 0:30:06.720
<v Speaker 1>earmarked for people who had been put out of work.

0:30:06.960 --> 0:30:12.640
<v Speaker 1>As a consequence of this international agreement, fish stocks began

0:30:12.680 --> 0:30:15.880
<v Speaker 1>to be depleted anyway, with Iceland needing to send boats

0:30:15.880 --> 0:30:19.920
<v Speaker 1>farther afield, which turned into conflict with other nations as well,

0:30:20.040 --> 0:30:24.280
<v Speaker 1>particularly Russia and Norway. Yeah, there's stocks have rebounded a

0:30:24.320 --> 0:30:27.440
<v Speaker 1>lot now, but if if you look at charts of

0:30:27.480 --> 0:30:31.960
<v Speaker 1>the fish populations around Iceland, there's like a decline over

0:30:32.040 --> 0:30:35.040
<v Speaker 1>the sixties and then a cliff and then they are

0:30:35.760 --> 0:30:39.240
<v Speaker 1>very alarmingly low and then they start to recover. Uh.

0:30:39.280 --> 0:30:43.000
<v Speaker 1>There's also a documentary it was actually an Icelandic documentary,

0:30:43.000 --> 0:30:45.080
<v Speaker 1>but it aired on the BBC and one of the

0:30:45.120 --> 0:30:48.040
<v Speaker 1>Icelandic officials that was interviewed for it talked about going

0:30:48.080 --> 0:30:50.800
<v Speaker 1>to Britain visiting some of these ports that had been

0:30:50.800 --> 0:30:54.880
<v Speaker 1>the distant water fishing ports, seeing all of these decommissioned

0:30:54.880 --> 0:30:58.280
<v Speaker 1>ships just sort of derelict there in the port, and

0:30:58.400 --> 0:31:02.200
<v Speaker 1>it reconfirming for him, Okay, seriously, we have got to

0:31:02.400 --> 0:31:04.840
<v Speaker 1>we have got to conserve our fishing stocks because as

0:31:04.840 --> 0:31:07.240
<v Speaker 1>a result of our trying to do that, all of

0:31:07.280 --> 0:31:09.320
<v Speaker 1>these people were put out of work and lost their

0:31:09.400 --> 0:31:13.840
<v Speaker 1>livelihoods um which I like, I thought was a an

0:31:13.920 --> 0:31:18.080
<v Speaker 1>interesting sentiment to come back to you because at that

0:31:18.120 --> 0:31:20.640
<v Speaker 1>point it was years after the decisions had all been made.

0:31:21.480 --> 0:31:24.120
<v Speaker 1>I like the part with the pirate flags, that's my

0:31:24.240 --> 0:31:27.520
<v Speaker 1>favorite part well, and there's also there were things about

0:31:27.560 --> 0:31:32.360
<v Speaker 1>like the British ships basically throwing potatoes at people, uh,

0:31:32.760 --> 0:31:35.440
<v Speaker 1>I mean at the at the Icelandic ships. So this

0:31:35.560 --> 0:31:39.160
<v Speaker 1>documentary documentary is really super interesting because you hear from

0:31:39.160 --> 0:31:43.160
<v Speaker 1>people who were who were on these ships and we're uh,

0:31:43.280 --> 0:31:47.120
<v Speaker 1>we're making living, making their living fishing, and it really

0:31:47.160 --> 0:31:51.200
<v Speaker 1>does seem like, especially through the first the first couple

0:31:51.240 --> 0:31:53.800
<v Speaker 1>of incidents where it moved from three miles to four

0:31:53.880 --> 0:31:56.440
<v Speaker 1>and from four to twelve that there was kind of

0:31:56.480 --> 0:32:02.840
<v Speaker 1>a weird spirit of camaraderie where where the British, the

0:32:02.880 --> 0:32:05.560
<v Speaker 1>British fishermen would be like, uh, yeah, we're gonna do

0:32:05.600 --> 0:32:08.320
<v Speaker 1>this anyway, and I also throw potatoes at you, and

0:32:08.400 --> 0:32:12.040
<v Speaker 1>Iceland was like, that's not cool, but we're gonna totally

0:32:12.040 --> 0:32:14.920
<v Speaker 1>be fair when we arrest you and take you to

0:32:14.960 --> 0:32:21.080
<v Speaker 1>court for your unsanctioned fishing activities. UM. It definitely though,

0:32:21.320 --> 0:32:25.640
<v Speaker 1>just just ruined the economy of some particular ports cities.

0:32:25.680 --> 0:32:28.400
<v Speaker 1>And then when you look at Britain's fishing industry today,

0:32:28.880 --> 0:32:33.560
<v Speaker 1>it is completely different than it was up through nineteen seventy.

0:32:33.800 --> 0:32:35.840
<v Speaker 1>And also a lot of the fish that used to

0:32:35.840 --> 0:32:38.920
<v Speaker 1>be uh used to be fished through distant water fishing

0:32:38.920 --> 0:32:43.520
<v Speaker 1>fleets are instead now uh raised through aquacultures that are

0:32:43.520 --> 0:32:48.520
<v Speaker 1>basically farmed, instead of um having this whole international agreement

0:32:48.680 --> 0:32:58.440
<v Speaker 1>to send trawlers to other international waters to try to fish. Yeah. Yeah,

0:32:58.880 --> 0:33:01.560
<v Speaker 1>do you have some listener ale that is less grown

0:33:01.600 --> 0:33:06.040
<v Speaker 1>up talk kind of? It's another thing about food. I

0:33:06.080 --> 0:33:10.480
<v Speaker 1>mean we kept saying fish and chips. Yeah, some some

0:33:10.520 --> 0:33:13.920
<v Speaker 1>fish and chips. I do love fish and chips. Um.

0:33:13.960 --> 0:33:17.240
<v Speaker 1>So uh, this is for Mindy. And every time I

0:33:17.280 --> 0:33:20.080
<v Speaker 1>think we've gotten the best email about Marjarine, we get

0:33:20.080 --> 0:33:23.840
<v Speaker 1>another email about Margarine and Mendy's email is titled the

0:33:23.880 --> 0:33:27.360
<v Speaker 1>real Jewish Aspect of OLEO Margarine. She sold it and

0:33:27.400 --> 0:33:31.080
<v Speaker 1>we're excommunicated for doing so. And it says, Dear Tracy

0:33:31.120 --> 0:33:33.720
<v Speaker 1>and Holly, I've been debating whether or not to write

0:33:33.760 --> 0:33:37.160
<v Speaker 1>you after your Butter Versus Marjarine podcast, but hearing you

0:33:37.200 --> 0:33:39.800
<v Speaker 1>read to listener emails about the Jewish aspect of this

0:33:39.840 --> 0:33:43.800
<v Speaker 1>story really clenched it. One of my friends genealogists, named

0:33:43.840 --> 0:33:46.800
<v Speaker 1>Tracy Hepps, has given a number of lectures on her

0:33:46.880 --> 0:33:51.840
<v Speaker 1>quote Jewish Margarine crime family. In her talk the Marjarine

0:33:51.880 --> 0:33:55.760
<v Speaker 1>Moonshiners from Minsk, she pointed out how this substance, which

0:33:55.880 --> 0:33:58.160
<v Speaker 1>was made from beef tallow mixed with milk, was being

0:33:58.240 --> 0:34:03.640
<v Speaker 1>sold as re butter to Kosher households. Needless to say,

0:34:03.720 --> 0:34:07.520
<v Speaker 1>the Jewish community was extremely upset with her ancestors, some

0:34:07.640 --> 0:34:10.880
<v Speaker 1>of whom ended up in Leavenworth. In fact, a brother

0:34:10.920 --> 0:34:14.120
<v Speaker 1>in law had even been excommunicated for selling Marjorine made

0:34:14.160 --> 0:34:16.359
<v Speaker 1>out of pig fat mixed with milk and claiming it

0:34:16.400 --> 0:34:20.040
<v Speaker 1>was butter. While Marjorine is now loved by practically every

0:34:20.120 --> 0:34:23.160
<v Speaker 1>Kosher household, it definitely wasn't at the time. If you

0:34:23.160 --> 0:34:25.440
<v Speaker 1>ever want to do a Marjorine follow up podcast, your

0:34:25.480 --> 0:34:28.400
<v Speaker 1>take on the Wassaki Jewish Marjorine crime Family would be

0:34:28.440 --> 0:34:30.719
<v Speaker 1>a lot of fun. And later lectures, she updates the

0:34:30.719 --> 0:34:33.319
<v Speaker 1>story to include more members than the original three she

0:34:33.360 --> 0:34:36.200
<v Speaker 1>had uncovered. By the time of her first lecture, her

0:34:36.239 --> 0:34:39.480
<v Speaker 1>Marjorine crime family spanned several states and included a large

0:34:39.560 --> 0:34:42.040
<v Speaker 1>number of her ancestors. And then she has links to

0:34:42.080 --> 0:34:46.960
<v Speaker 1>all of these lectures and UH and other information. It

0:34:47.120 --> 0:34:53.400
<v Speaker 1>is fascinating. Another thing I didn't think of, Like I

0:34:53.440 --> 0:34:57.040
<v Speaker 1>didn't think of the part about about Marjorine's place in

0:34:57.120 --> 0:35:00.920
<v Speaker 1>kosher cooking today. Also, when we talked about margarine fraud,

0:35:01.280 --> 0:35:05.480
<v Speaker 1>it did not occur to me that anyone was selling margarine,

0:35:06.719 --> 0:35:08.920
<v Speaker 1>which at the time was made out of beef, tallow

0:35:09.040 --> 0:35:13.600
<v Speaker 1>and dairy, which is like just by definition not koshert

0:35:14.160 --> 0:35:18.359
<v Speaker 1>correct to Jewish families right, And that this was specifically

0:35:19.560 --> 0:35:23.399
<v Speaker 1>uh like a Jewish crime family selling it to other

0:35:24.160 --> 0:35:26.640
<v Speaker 1>Jewish people, and then that of course people were outraged

0:35:26.680 --> 0:35:28.600
<v Speaker 1>when they learned about what was going on. It reminded

0:35:28.600 --> 0:35:31.640
<v Speaker 1>me a little bit of when Fast Food Nation came

0:35:31.680 --> 0:35:36.160
<v Speaker 1>out and it was revealed that McDonald's was flavoring their

0:35:36.160 --> 0:35:41.520
<v Speaker 1>French fries with beef. H And at that point the

0:35:41.640 --> 0:35:46.840
<v Speaker 1>state of available vegetarian options and restaurants was dramatically different

0:35:46.880 --> 0:35:50.759
<v Speaker 1>than it is today, and many vegetarian people were like,

0:35:50.880 --> 0:35:55.080
<v Speaker 1>I've been eating that and it's flavored with beef. I

0:35:55.239 --> 0:35:58.840
<v Speaker 1>was one of those people. I don't think my outrage

0:35:58.840 --> 0:36:01.040
<v Speaker 1>was nearly as the same as if I had had

0:36:01.040 --> 0:36:04.600
<v Speaker 1>a religious prohibition against eating uh meat. It was just

0:36:04.640 --> 0:36:09.279
<v Speaker 1>a personal prohibition. But still, that's fascinating, man, these emails fascinating.

0:36:09.680 --> 0:36:12.719
<v Speaker 1>I did not get to watch the longer of the lectures,

0:36:12.719 --> 0:36:15.640
<v Speaker 1>but I did watch the shorter one, and that was fascinating.

0:36:15.680 --> 0:36:18.640
<v Speaker 1>We will link to them in the show notes. Once again,

0:36:18.880 --> 0:36:22.320
<v Speaker 1>just because I was not raised in a kosher household,

0:36:22.400 --> 0:36:25.239
<v Speaker 1>it did not occur to me that anybody would be

0:36:25.280 --> 0:36:30.680
<v Speaker 1>selling margarine as butter to Jewish people. That's awful. Don't

0:36:30.719 --> 0:36:34.399
<v Speaker 1>do that. If your margarine is made out of non

0:36:34.480 --> 0:36:38.919
<v Speaker 1>kosher ingredients, that's wrong. If you would like to write

0:36:38.920 --> 0:36:40.759
<v Speaker 1>to us about this or any other podcast where a

0:36:40.840 --> 0:36:43.399
<v Speaker 1>history podcast at how stuff works dot com. We're also

0:36:43.440 --> 0:36:45.920
<v Speaker 1>on Facebook at facebook dot com slash miss in history

0:36:45.920 --> 0:36:48.520
<v Speaker 1>and on Twitter at miss in History. Are tumbler is

0:36:48.560 --> 0:36:51.000
<v Speaker 1>missing history dot tumbler dot com or also on panterest

0:36:51.040 --> 0:36:53.160
<v Speaker 1>at pantherest dot com slash miss in History and our

0:36:53.239 --> 0:36:55.920
<v Speaker 1>instagram as at miss in History. You can come to

0:36:55.920 --> 0:36:58.520
<v Speaker 1>our parent company's website, which is how stuff works dot

0:36:58.560 --> 0:37:03.360
<v Speaker 1>com and find lots of information about all kinds of stuff.

0:37:03.400 --> 0:37:05.960
<v Speaker 1>And then you can come to our website, which is

0:37:06.480 --> 0:37:09.880
<v Speaker 1>missed in History dot com. You will find show notes

0:37:09.920 --> 0:37:11.520
<v Speaker 1>for all the episodes Holly and I have done. You

0:37:11.560 --> 0:37:13.839
<v Speaker 1>will find an archive of every episode ever, so all

0:37:13.920 --> 0:37:16.040
<v Speaker 1>kinds of cool stuff at how stuff works dot com

0:37:16.160 --> 0:37:23.719
<v Speaker 1>or missed in History dot com for more onness and

0:37:23.760 --> 0:37:26.319
<v Speaker 1>thousands of other topics. Does it how stuff works dot

0:37:26.320 --> 0:37:38.640
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