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Speaker 1: It was in nineteen seventy two and my sisters. Charlene

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Speaker 1: had to read a book for school. To entertain us

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Speaker 1: and to get her work done, she decided to read

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Speaker 1: it to us at bedtime. The book was All Creatures

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Speaker 1: Great and Small. It was about a veterinarian who was

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Speaker 1: remarkable at taking care of animals. There was an elderly

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Speaker 1: man in the book that had a dog that was

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Speaker 1: real sick and the dog was like his only friend.

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Speaker 1: And there was a fancy dog in the book that

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Speaker 1: threw parties and had his own stationary. And then this

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Speaker 1: veterinarian would also visit with farmers that were poor and

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Speaker 1: they had scraped together their last dimes to take care

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Speaker 1: of their animals. I loved the story. So when my

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Speaker 1: second grade teacher announced that we had a book report due, honey,

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Speaker 1: I was ready because I was gonna do All Creatures

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Speaker 1: Great and Small. Well. When I announced my plan at

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Speaker 1: the supper table, I was met with just a barrage

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Speaker 1: of that'll never work. You're gonna get caught cheating. And

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Speaker 1: I'm like cheating. I mean, y'all are throwing out some

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Speaker 1: pretty severe accusations. Now, I mean, I know the book,

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Speaker 1: but they were like, you can't do a book report

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Speaker 1: on an advanced book. I mean, you're seven. And then

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Speaker 1: they were saying, your teacher's gonna know you didn't read

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Speaker 1: this book, and however you write that book report, it's

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Speaker 1: going to be real obvious. And then Charlene said, remember,

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Speaker 1: you even fell asleep during a lot of the parts

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Speaker 1: and I kept reading to Shelley, so there's big gaps

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Speaker 1: of the book you don't know. Well. I was real

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Speaker 1: disappointed because I thought I had just saved myself a

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Speaker 1: whole lot of time, but I ended up having to

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Speaker 1: do a book report on another book that I legitimately read.

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Speaker 1: I didn't realize it at the time. But what people write,

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Speaker 1: they will tell on themselves. So today we're going to

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Speaker 1: be talking about the case of Corey Ricen's. Now she

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Speaker 1: is accused of poisoning her husband. Let's just do a

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Speaker 1: quick little timeline between two thousand and fifteen and seventeen,

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Speaker 1: she is accused of purchasing four life insurance policies totaling

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Speaker 1: about two million dollars four separate policies. September of twenty twenty,

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Speaker 1: it was discovered by Corey's husband Eric that she had

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Speaker 1: obtained two hundred and fifty thousand dollars home equity line

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Speaker 1: of credit. She had also withdrawn one hundred thousand dollars

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Speaker 1: from his bank account, and she had spent more than

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Speaker 1: thirty thousand dollars in credit cards. So, y'all, we're talking

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Speaker 1: talking about a ton of money already, but I'm not done.

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Speaker 1: That same year, she had failed to make payments to

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Speaker 1: the irs for his business, totaling one hundred and thirty

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Speaker 1: four thousand dollars. In October of twenty twenty, Eric consulted

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Speaker 1: a divorce lawyer. Then he went to an estate planner.

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Speaker 1: He didn't tell his wife this, but he changed his will.

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Speaker 1: He put the control of all of his estate to

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Speaker 1: his sister, Katie. He also transferred the partnership interest in

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Speaker 1: the business and the beneficiary of his five hundred thousand

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Speaker 1: dollar life insurance policy to his business partner. January the first,

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty two, Eric and his business partner had two

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Speaker 1: million dollar life insurance policies on each other, and again

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Speaker 1: found out that Corey changed the policy and listed herself

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Speaker 1: as the beneficiary. Her husband was alerted to this change,

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Speaker 1: and of course they swapped it right back. But all

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Speaker 1: of these things were cluing him in on that something

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Speaker 1: is not right. I mean, she's literally way out of

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Speaker 1: bounds with all this money. I'm the primary target of

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Speaker 1: her stealing, basically.

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Speaker 2: So.

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Speaker 1: February twelfth, twenty twenty two, Corey Texas an acquaintance that

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Speaker 1: went by the name of cl asking for fentanyl. February fourteenth,

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty two, Valentine's Day, Corey makes Eric a sandwich.

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Speaker 1: After eating that sandwich, he broke out in hives. Was

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Speaker 1: having difficulty breathathing. He had to grab his son's EpiPen

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Speaker 1: and basically save his own life, but he told friends

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Speaker 1: at that point he honestly believed his wife was trying

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Speaker 1: to poison him. Late February of twenty twenty two, Glory

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Speaker 1: again contacts c L, saying the fentanyl pills are not

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Speaker 1: strong enough. I need stronger fentanyl. March the third of

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty two, Corey owed more than a million dollars.

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Speaker 1: March the fourth, twenty twenty two, Eric thirty nine years old,

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Speaker 1: died after he was found unresponsive in his bedroom at

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Speaker 1: his home that he shared with his wife. It was

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Speaker 1: found out through the autopsy that he had five times

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Speaker 1: the lethal dose of fentanyl in his system. Now this

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Speaker 1: is important, y'all. The fentanyl in his system was not

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Speaker 1: medical grade, so this was street fentanyl. Now, this is

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Speaker 1: where an unusual twist occurs in this case to me,

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Speaker 1: because you don't always have it. Corey, now widowed with

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Speaker 1: three boys, said the boys were having trouble coping with grief,

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Speaker 1: so she wrote with them a children's bok book called

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Speaker 1: Are You with Me? Well, I can tell you the

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Speaker 1: expert that I've got with us is a cold case

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Speaker 1: squad all by herself, doctor Jonie Johnston. Y'all, she's got

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Speaker 1: a PhD. She's a forensic psychologist, she's a private investigator,

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Speaker 1: she's a cold case expert. She's a crime writer, she's

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Speaker 1: a podcaster, and she's an author of the book Serial

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Speaker 1: Killers one on one questions true crime fans ask. And

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Speaker 1: I've asked doctor Johnson to be with us to talk

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Speaker 1: about the unusual aspect of when a killer or alleged

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Speaker 1: killer writes a book. So y'all, please help me. Welcome

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Speaker 1: doctor Jony.

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Speaker 2: What an introduction, Cheryl, that was amazing. Thank you so much.

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Speaker 2: I'm just delighted to be on your.

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Speaker 1: Show, having you here and having such an au usual

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Speaker 1: aspect to go through with you. One thing I adore

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Speaker 1: about you and respect about you is your approach to cases.

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Speaker 1: I can sometimes get so focused on this person's guilt

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Speaker 1: that I say this killer, this murderer. I rarely use

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Speaker 1: accused because I'm just focused on what I believe are

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Speaker 1: facts and what I believe transpired. You're one of those

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Speaker 1: folks that keep me grounded so that we don't throw

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Speaker 1: the wrong person somewhere. So I appreciate you, and I

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Speaker 1: cannot wait to get into this forty two page book

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Speaker 1: with you right now.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's difficult, and I will say, I mean, I've

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Speaker 2: been very lucky in my career to work with victims

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Speaker 2: as well as perpetrators and inmates, and you know, I've

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Speaker 2: realized that there are sometimes there are very complicated issues.

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Speaker 2: So you know, I have a different role than you

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Speaker 2: do sometimes, so it's easier for me, and it really

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Speaker 2: is my job to kind of stay. I can be

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Speaker 2: as objective as possible, but that doesn't mean I don't

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Speaker 2: have feelings about things, and I do, and this case

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Speaker 2: in particular, I think it's very difficult not to.

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Speaker 1: Well, I know when we talked the other day, it

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Speaker 1: was so fascinating because when you think of OJ Simpson,

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Speaker 1: Johan van Deislout, John Wayne Gacy, Danny Rowlands, the Son

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Speaker 1: of Sam, all these people have written books, and you know,

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Speaker 1: as you're writing, I mean, sometimes that's subconscious. You don't

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Speaker 1: even realize what you've said. You don't even realize you've

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Speaker 1: given yourself away in some way. So I think it's

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Speaker 1: one of those things. When I started to talk to

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Speaker 1: you about the book that this alleged killer wrote, I

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Speaker 1: just I wanted to get into it page by page

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Speaker 1: with you. You know.

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Speaker 2: One of the challenges is you and I were talking

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Speaker 2: about the other day, is that it's so difficult when

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Speaker 2: we know some of the alleged facts that are coming out.

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Speaker 2: It's so difficult to look at this book through any

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Speaker 2: kind of neutral lens because you know, if she is guilty,

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Speaker 2: then it's kind of mind boggling to think that someone

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Speaker 2: would do something like this. And if she's innocent, then

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Speaker 2: you think, well, why wouldn't she write a children's book,

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Speaker 2: you know, to help her children cope with grief? So

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Speaker 2: it's you know, one of the things I really tried

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Speaker 2: hard to do as I was reading through the book

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Speaker 2: is to kind of try to look at it from

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Speaker 2: both perspectives and also look at it as a psychologist

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Speaker 2: in terms of looking at some of the writing and

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Speaker 2: some of the languages that she used and those kinds

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Speaker 2: of things. And you made some really interesting insights about

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Speaker 2: that as well.

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Speaker 1: Let's talk first, right from jump Street, the dedication she

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Speaker 1: writes to my amazing husband and wonderful father. Now, the

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Speaker 1: first thing that leaped out at me is this was

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Speaker 1: not past tense. She's not really naming him, She's not

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Speaker 1: speaking specifically about in any way. It's just a broad stroke.

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Speaker 1: I mean, anybody can say their husband is amazing, and

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Speaker 1: anybody can say their husband is a wonderful father. You

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Speaker 1: would think that the dedication would have been different.

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Speaker 2: I think it's interesting because, you know, on the one hand,

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Speaker 2: you know, of course it makes complete sense that she

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Speaker 2: would dedicate this children's book to her deceased husband, and

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Speaker 2: yet it is not really a very personal dedication. I

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Speaker 2: would agree with you there, it's a kind of a generic,

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Speaker 2: you know, to through this amazing person. I think I

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Speaker 2: would expect maybe something more along the lines of you know,

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Speaker 2: I miss you every day, You're a role model for me,

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Speaker 2: and continuing with our children, something a little more personal

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Speaker 2: than that. Now, it is a children's book, so it's

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Speaker 2: not like she's expecting I think a lot of seven, eight, nine,

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Speaker 2: ten year old kids to understand that. But you would

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Speaker 2: think in a way for her own healing, right, she

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Speaker 2: might say something a little more personal or for the

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Speaker 2: parents of the children that are being read to.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's an excellent point. The other children that are

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Speaker 1: having this book read to them, they're coping with the

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Speaker 1: laws of someone too, So you're right. And see, I

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Speaker 1: would have thought the book is called are You with Me?

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Speaker 1: I would have thought in the dedication she would have

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Speaker 1: said you are always with us. I just found right

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Speaker 1: off the bat it was a little sterile.

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Speaker 2: You know, it is difficult, Cheryl, to tease out some

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Speaker 2: of these things because we all have our own writing styles,

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Speaker 2: we all have our own feelings, we all have our

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Speaker 2: own way of expressing ourselves. You know, it'd be nice

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Speaker 2: to talk to people who knew Corey personally and get

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Speaker 2: more of a sense of, you know, how is this

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Speaker 2: person and in terms of expressing her emotions normally.

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Speaker 1: That's an excellent point.

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Speaker 2: That'd be very helpful to us. I think, you know,

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Speaker 2: is this is somebody who is very emotional, very expressive.

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Speaker 2: That would make this even you know, a little bit odder, right,

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Speaker 2: if this is somebody who's just a very emotional person,

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Speaker 2: very expressive person. If this is somebody who's not, then

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Speaker 2: we can say, okay, maybe this is just Corey. You know,

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Speaker 2: maybe this is just Corey's somebody who has difficulty expressing

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Speaker 2: the depthness of her feelings. But if she, again, if

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Speaker 2: she isn't somebody like that, we might say, okay, maybe

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Speaker 2: she's expressing what her feelings really are, which are not

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Speaker 2: that genuine.

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Speaker 1: And speaking of that one thing that I found unusual,

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Speaker 1: there's a page where she's talking, are you with me

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Speaker 1: on my birthday? To blow out my candles? Question mark,

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Speaker 1: to celebrate another year and watch me grow, teach me

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Speaker 1: new things, and watch me make mistakes. Well, to watch

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Speaker 1: me make mistakes leaped out at me. And also there

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Speaker 1: was no question mark.

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Speaker 2: I had a really hard time understanding that. And now

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Speaker 2: I know this may be a self published book. And

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Speaker 2: so you know, you and I both have written a

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Speaker 2: lot of different things, and as a writer, I'm kind

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Speaker 2: of like, okay, items like just like an editing issue.

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Speaker 2: But it's hard to believe that, you know, because you

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Speaker 2: would think that just the basic level of going through

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Speaker 2: the book getting ready for publication, either she or somebody

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Speaker 2: else would have caught that. So it's hard to know

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Speaker 2: what to make of them, because you're right, it comes

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Speaker 2: across like she's making these statements as opposed to asking,

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Speaker 2: you know, eric questions.

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Speaker 1: Right, that are coming from a child, right, I mean,

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Speaker 1: watch me make mistakes. I just don't think the children

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Speaker 1: would be wanting their dad to watch them make mistakes.

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Speaker 1: School a soccer goal, yes, blow out birthcake candles, and

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Speaker 1: make a wish, learn to write a skateboard, sure, all

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Speaker 1: of those fun things. But I just found that an

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Speaker 1: unusual way to end that paragraph.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I have to agree with you there. I mean,

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Speaker 2: you know again, you know, we all make mistakes, Kids

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Speaker 2: make mistakes. Kids will like to know that their parents

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Speaker 2: care about them even when they make mistakes. But you're right,

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Speaker 2: I would expect that to continue at the very least,

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Speaker 2: make mistakes and helping me do better, I mean whatever,

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Speaker 2: helping me grow, helping me succeed, helping me do my best.

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Speaker 2: I think it is unusual that she ends in that way.

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Speaker 1: And then she has another sentence later in the book

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Speaker 1: where it says when I'm scared, nervous and have butterflies. Again,

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Speaker 1: you want a parent to comfort you in those times.

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Speaker 1: But this is supposed to be a book that is

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Speaker 1: comforting you through grief. And again, what's being highlighted is

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Speaker 1: the feeling of being scared, being nervous, not being at

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Speaker 1: ease in your day to day. So I don't know

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Speaker 1: how much of that is coming from her, because she's

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Speaker 1: clearly looking over her shoulder. I mean she sent emails

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Speaker 1: to the detective basically saying that. So again, this book

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Speaker 1: to me reads more from her than it does the

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Speaker 1: three boys.

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Speaker 2: I would say, I agree Cheryl that certainly some of

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Speaker 2: the language that she uses, and not that as much

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Speaker 2: because I think you know a kid, certainly a nine

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Speaker 2: year old child and her oldest was nine, can understand

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Speaker 2: what it means to have butterf flies in your stomach

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Speaker 2: or to be scared. Probably a five year old could

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Speaker 2: understand that fluttery feeling in your stomach when you get

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Speaker 2: kind of nervous. And I tried so hard because I

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Speaker 2: think it is is fair, you know, when somebody is

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Speaker 2: in any situation, and when I say fair as a psychologist,

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Speaker 2: to kind of go okay, how would I view this

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Speaker 2: as a parent? How would I view this if I

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Speaker 2: didn't know this circumstance to this book or the context

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Speaker 2: in which this book is allegedly been written under, would

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Speaker 2: I feel the same way? And that's so difficult for

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Speaker 2: any of us to do? And I kind of go, yeah,

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Speaker 2: I would agree with you. There are some parts. I mean,

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Speaker 2: number one, I do think it certainly is not only

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Speaker 2: normal but appropriate to address difficult feelings that kids have.

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Speaker 2: Kids do get scared, they do have butterflies. I don't

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Speaker 2: think there's anything amiss about that. I think, and I

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Speaker 2: do think later in the books she tries to kind

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Speaker 2: of go back, so she does start out kind of

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Speaker 2: with a lot of kind of negatives, you know, when

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Speaker 2: I'm feeling this way, when I'm feeling that way, and

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Speaker 2: then at the end, yes I do. I am with

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Speaker 2: you when you're feeling this way. Yes I am. So.

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Speaker 2: I don't think that's a bad way necessarily of structuring

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Speaker 2: the book. I do think that some of the language

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Speaker 2: in the book, and we can go bite page by page,

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Speaker 2: which we're going to, you know, it does seem like

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Speaker 2: it's written more about her and the language. I think

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Speaker 2: some of the language she uses. Makes it hard for

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Speaker 2: me to think a child would really understand that. And

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Speaker 2: a few of the things that she says, which we'll

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Speaker 2: talk about, almost sound like adult symptoms.

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Speaker 1: Glad you said that. This is the next thing I

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Speaker 1: had on my list. When my palms are sweaty, my

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Speaker 1: heart rate rapidly beating, and I need you now, I'm sorry,

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Speaker 1: Number one. That don't sound like a child. It doesn't

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Speaker 1: sound like a boy. That sounds like her, And it

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Speaker 1: sounds like her being nervous, maybe again expecting to knock

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Speaker 1: at the door that she don't want.

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Speaker 2: You have children. I have children, and it's so hard

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Speaker 2: not to have her mom hat on as well as

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Speaker 2: our professional hats on. And I found myself thinking the

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Speaker 2: same thing. I mean, number one, that is something The

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Speaker 2: language makes me think. This is an adult talking about

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Speaker 2: an adult symptom that she's almost describing like a panic attack. Yes,

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Speaker 2: you know, having sweaty palms, having her heart racing, and

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Speaker 2: those kinds of things. I don't think most kids experience

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Speaker 2: things quite that way, nor do I think they would

295
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Speaker 2: understand that. I do think in that situation, it sounds

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Speaker 2: like she's describing possibly how she's feeling.

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Speaker 1: One hundred percent. And it's funny because you're right. I

298
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Speaker 1: have two children, a girl and a boy. They're both

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Speaker 1: in their twenties now. But I will tell you, even

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Speaker 1: as a young person, my son tried to almost emulate

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Speaker 1: what he thought being a man was, so he wouldn't

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Speaker 1: want to cry. He wouldn't want to tell you he

303
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Speaker 1: was scared. He wouldn't want to tell you anything that

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Speaker 1: made him look weak in his eyes. My daughter would

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Speaker 1: have no problem crying saying she was scared. So again,

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Speaker 1: three boys, I just find this difficult to buy. I

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Speaker 1: don't see them saying this. And again, I don't see

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Speaker 1: little children being able to articulate. My heart is rapidly

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Speaker 1: beating and my farms were sweaty. Even though you may

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Speaker 1: on some level understand that's happening, I don't think you

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Speaker 1: would express it that way.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm not sure how many children of the ages

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Speaker 2: of her kids would understand that you're right or relate

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Speaker 2: to that.

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Speaker 1: So as a psychologist, here's my other question. She writes

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Speaker 1: this sentence, my heart is empty. I don't believe a

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Speaker 1: little boy said that. I don't believe that that's how

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Speaker 1: they felt. I think in some ways, now you correct

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Speaker 1: me because this is not my wheelhouse. But I lost

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Speaker 1: my parents. I lost my parents fairly young. Never did

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Speaker 1: I feel like my heart was empty. In some ways,

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Speaker 1: I felt like this overwhelming fulfilledness because I heard all

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Speaker 1: these wonderful stories about them from their friends and neighbors

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Speaker 1: and colleagues and other family members. I felt a sense

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Speaker 1: of pride the way people would talk about them that

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Speaker 1: I would not have heard if they were alive that day.

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Speaker 1: If that makes sense to you, I'm having a hard

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Speaker 1: time believe in any nine year old boy said his

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Speaker 1: heart was empty.

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Speaker 2: I kind of agree with you. I mean, you know,

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Speaker 2: if this is somebody who, again we don't know the context,

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Speaker 2: we don't know the backstory. And she is, in fact

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Speaker 2: writing this book with her boys, which I think she

334
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Speaker 2: says that she did, you would think she would be

335
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Speaker 2: asking them how it feels, and you would think that

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Speaker 2: the language in this book would reflect that. You know,

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Speaker 2: sometimes I used to work with kids a lot when

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Speaker 2: I first was first in my career, and I was

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Speaker 2: trying to think back about kids I saw that had

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Speaker 2: lost parents or siblings at these kids' age, you know, five,

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Speaker 2: seven and nine, And I mean, I think I would

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Speaker 2: expect things like sometimes my stomach hurts when I think

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Speaker 2: about you, or you know, because which is very common,

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Speaker 2: especially with boys, to have a physical kind of things

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Speaker 2: as an expression of that greed for that sadness, or

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Speaker 2: you know, I feel angry when I see other boys

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Speaker 2: with their dads.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean there's all.

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Speaker 2: Kinds of things you think that children that age would

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Speaker 2: talk about. I can't imagine a kid that I've known

351
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Speaker 2: or I have seen who would say my heart is

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Speaker 2: empty on their own. Now, their mom might say that,

353
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Speaker 2: and they might say, yeah, I feel that way too,

354
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Speaker 2: but that's coming again, more from a parent than from

355
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Speaker 2: a child.

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Speaker 1: Your heart broken, your heart shattered, but it's not empty

357
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Speaker 1: because again he's still there. You're trying to comfort them

358
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Speaker 1: and say he's still with you. You're asking the question

359
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Speaker 1: are you with me? But have you answered it? Because

360
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Speaker 1: here's the next thing. She says, I'm the chill you feel.

361
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Speaker 1: When she called nine one one, she said he was

362
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Speaker 1: cold to the touch, And now she's saying, I'm the

363
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Speaker 1: chill you feel. If I'm the chill, that sounds ominous,

364
00:20:48,119 --> 00:20:53,080
Speaker 1: that sounds negative, that sounds scary. I don't think a

365
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Speaker 1: child said it.

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Speaker 2: Well, I don't think a child said that for sure.

367
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Speaker 2: Now you know, one of the things that you and

368
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Speaker 2: I talked about the other day, which I think would

369
00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:03,360
Speaker 2: be important. I would love to know what the reaction

370
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Speaker 2: was to this book from other parents and children who

371
00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:11,520
Speaker 2: are grieving before, you know, Corey was arrested, before we

372
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Speaker 2: all found out that she was the suspect and then

373
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Speaker 2: the accused, you know, to get a sense of that,

374
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Speaker 2: you know, how did other parents feel about this book?

375
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Speaker 2: Was this book? Do they feel like the book was

376
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Speaker 2: directed more toward them as parents because the language doesn't

377
00:21:25,560 --> 00:21:28,359
Speaker 2: sound like that, particularly that child friendly. You know, what

378
00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:31,479
Speaker 2: was the reaction because all of these things, you know,

379
00:21:31,560 --> 00:21:33,960
Speaker 2: each page, Cheryl, we can pick out things and kind

380
00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:36,639
Speaker 2: of go, this is odd. But I think the bigger

381
00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:38,159
Speaker 2: picture to me, and I think it is to you

382
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Speaker 2: as well, is is, again, what would be the motive?

383
00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:45,680
Speaker 2: You know, if somebody did the things they're accused of doing,

384
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Speaker 2: which we all know right now she's innocentral proven guilty.

385
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Speaker 2: If this person did the things that she's used doing,

386
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Speaker 2: there seems to be from what we know, some compelling evidence,

387
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Speaker 2: what would be the motive for that?

388
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Speaker 1: From my perspective, if I look at her, if in fact,

389
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Speaker 1: she's guilty of this, or I look at Oja or

390
00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:04,480
Speaker 1: your hen Van der Slut or Son of Sam or

391
00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:09,879
Speaker 1: John Wayne Gacy. It's money. You are now famous to

392
00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:15,280
Speaker 1: some degree in your town, on the internet, whatever. And

393
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Speaker 1: once they think they've got a certain number of people,

394
00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:23,919
Speaker 1: if they can generate a work, and in this case books,

395
00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:27,720
Speaker 1: that's going to translate to money. Well, all you've got

396
00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:30,000
Speaker 1: to do is follow her for five minutes and you

397
00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:31,919
Speaker 1: see money, money, money, money.

398
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Speaker 2: Well, I'm certainly not going to argue with you about that,

399
00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:38,520
Speaker 2: because from what has been made public, there's a pretty

400
00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:43,880
Speaker 2: good track record of being very money motivated. I will, though,

401
00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:48,280
Speaker 2: propose Cheryl that money may have been a primary motive,

402
00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:51,760
Speaker 2: but there's more to it than that. I think if

403
00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:54,879
Speaker 2: she had not been arrested for this, she had some

404
00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:58,080
Speaker 2: pretty good money right at this point. And I also

405
00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:02,320
Speaker 2: think that there were some secondary motives as well. I

406
00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:05,639
Speaker 2: think that Corey liked the idea of getting attention, of

407
00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:09,320
Speaker 2: getting sympathy, of being seen as a victim. In some ways,

408
00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:12,520
Speaker 2: I would imagine that was a secondary motive for her,

409
00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:16,000
Speaker 2: because is this the best way to make money? No,

410
00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:18,879
Speaker 2: it's hard to make money publishing a book, especially a

411
00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:22,760
Speaker 2: children's book. So while absolutely she may been thinking, Okay,

412
00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:26,359
Speaker 2: here's another way, another revenue stream for me, I also

413
00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:28,280
Speaker 2: think it may have been, well, this is a potential

414
00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:31,960
Speaker 2: revenue stream, and look at all these other emotional benefits

415
00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:35,520
Speaker 2: or payoffs. I'm going to be seen as this heroic

416
00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:40,159
Speaker 2: widow who is coping with the unexpected and tragic loss

417
00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:44,080
Speaker 2: of my husband by helping my children cope with their grief.

418
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Speaker 2: How virtuous can you be?

419
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Speaker 1: I'm one of those folks my educational level, I would say,

420
00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:55,119
Speaker 1: if she killed her husband, and if she turned around

421
00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:59,760
Speaker 1: and wrote this book using her children for money, for fame,

422
00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:03,800
Speaker 1: for attention, whatever, that she's crazy as a rat a

423
00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:09,520
Speaker 1: coffee can. With your education, what would you tell us?

424
00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:12,520
Speaker 1: Tell me what could be going on with a person

425
00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:13,880
Speaker 1: that is doing this.

426
00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:16,159
Speaker 2: Let me get my caveats, which you always do, and

427
00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:18,560
Speaker 2: that is, I'm never going to diagnose somebody that I

428
00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:22,879
Speaker 2: have not sat down with and evaluated myself. That's number one.

429
00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:27,080
Speaker 2: Number two is very difficult to diagnose anybody, even if

430
00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:29,840
Speaker 2: I was going to in a situation like this. The

431
00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:32,200
Speaker 2: behavior that we're seeing now. Now, that doesn't mean we

432
00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:35,119
Speaker 2: can't talk about past behavior, which we will, But you know,

433
00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:37,439
Speaker 2: anything that happens in the courtroom, for example, is going

434
00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:39,720
Speaker 2: to be I think, so complicated by how she's feeling,

435
00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:41,920
Speaker 2: what's going on, the stress. So I always want to

436
00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:43,199
Speaker 2: put that out there because I do want to be

437
00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:46,160
Speaker 2: fair to kind of everybody involved. And I also think

438
00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:50,520
Speaker 2: there's this issue. I think it's so easy and understandable

439
00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:53,920
Speaker 2: when we see somebody who is accused of doing really

440
00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:57,600
Speaker 2: horrible things, and this is pretty bad. I can't think

441
00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:00,760
Speaker 2: of very many things worse than this that we automatically

442
00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:03,840
Speaker 2: think this person has got to be, as you said, Cheryl,

443
00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:06,639
Speaker 2: crazy as an inn. Well, then you kind of think, Okay,

444
00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:12,560
Speaker 2: what mental illness would cause somebody to, if these allegations

445
00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:19,840
Speaker 2: are true, to premeditatively murder their husband after having allegedly

446
00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:24,840
Speaker 2: attempted on other occasions. Is that something consistent with maybe schizophrenia,

447
00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:31,919
Speaker 2: no depression, no bipolit disorder. Definitely not. So what mental

448
00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:35,119
Speaker 2: illness are we talking about now? There are certainly some

449
00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:41,480
Speaker 2: personality disorders that, in combination with some life circumstances some

450
00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:46,320
Speaker 2: other things can result to people becoming violent, But I

451
00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:49,560
Speaker 2: don't think in the situation, so you're right, happy people

452
00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:53,639
Speaker 2: typically don't murder other people, and they don't plan to

453
00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:57,439
Speaker 2: murder other people. But because somebody is not happy, or

454
00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:02,120
Speaker 2: they're angry, or they feel entitled, those are not signs

455
00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:04,760
Speaker 2: of mental illness. They can be, as I said before,

456
00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:07,919
Speaker 2: signs of a personality disorder. But that would require a

457
00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:10,280
Speaker 2: lot more information than we have about this person.

458
00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:19,840
Speaker 1: Given all of your different jobs, all your education, all

459
00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:23,520
Speaker 1: your experience, if you were called by the prosecutor and

460
00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:25,880
Speaker 1: say hey, we need your help, would you go as

461
00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:28,440
Speaker 1: a PI or would you go as a psychologist? If

462
00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:31,040
Speaker 1: you were called by the defense, would you go as

463
00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:35,440
Speaker 1: a psychologist or a PI or would you say, Hey,

464
00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:38,880
Speaker 1: you need to look at this thing as a reporter,

465
00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:41,600
Speaker 1: and you need to put this story together like this

466
00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:45,240
Speaker 1: because to your point, there's always more than one side.

467
00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:48,040
Speaker 1: You're never going to get the whole story from anybody,

468
00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:51,560
Speaker 1: so you've got to figure out how to weave it.

469
00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:55,200
Speaker 1: So I'm just saying, if you were called by the prosecution,

470
00:26:56,680 --> 00:27:02,480
Speaker 1: which of your jobs would you see yourself doing? And

471
00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:04,560
Speaker 1: if you were called by the defense, which of your

472
00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:06,960
Speaker 1: jobs would you see yourself doing.

473
00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:11,240
Speaker 2: I think so much of it depends upon the case

474
00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:13,560
Speaker 2: because when you're looking at some of the evidence here,

475
00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:18,080
Speaker 2: I mean, it's hard to argue against the private investigator part. Right,

476
00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:23,480
Speaker 2: there seems to be so much evidence of this person's

477
00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:26,520
Speaker 2: you know, guilt based on what the information that we know.

478
00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:29,879
Speaker 2: The forensic psychology part of it, I think oftentimes comes

479
00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:32,840
Speaker 2: in after the fact, you know, after a person's been convicted,

480
00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:35,040
Speaker 2: after a person's gotten off or whatever, and then it

481
00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:37,680
Speaker 2: becomes a matter of either mitigating trying to figure out

482
00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:41,960
Speaker 2: why this happened, what's you know, from a prosecution standpoint,

483
00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:45,160
Speaker 2: looking at risk assessment or threat assessment, or looking at

484
00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:47,440
Speaker 2: it some other way. But yeah, I would definitely say,

485
00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:50,880
Speaker 2: you know, number one would be the private investigator, because

486
00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:53,000
Speaker 2: my lord, I don't know that there's just seems to

487
00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:55,480
Speaker 2: be so much evidence, like we're talking about. And then,

488
00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:58,040
Speaker 2: like I said, I do think oftentimes when we're talking about,

489
00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:01,520
Speaker 2: you know, the emotional part of it that comes after,

490
00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:05,199
Speaker 2: after the data has been done, or there's some attempt

491
00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:07,200
Speaker 2: to prevent things from happening in the future, which is

492
00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:09,040
Speaker 2: always so much more difficult.

493
00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:13,760
Speaker 1: M hm. Well, you know, Nancy Grace was my prosecutor

494
00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:15,560
Speaker 1: back in the day when I was assigned to the

495
00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:19,879
Speaker 1: Major Case Division, and she was one of the best

496
00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:23,840
Speaker 1: at putting up statements just in front of the jury,

497
00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:26,560
Speaker 1: in front of God and country, this is what this

498
00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:30,080
Speaker 1: person said, and then just letting you stare at it

499
00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:35,639
Speaker 1: until you just got absorbed by it. This prosecution, to me,

500
00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:38,120
Speaker 1: there is no way this book is not going to

501
00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:39,600
Speaker 1: be front and center at some point.

502
00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:43,920
Speaker 2: I can't imagine how much attention this book is going

503
00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:46,040
Speaker 2: to get from a prosecutor.

504
00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:49,880
Speaker 1: When I look at the book that your hand, Vanderslut

505
00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:56,520
Speaker 1: wrote and OJ Simpson wrote, there's a degree of arrogance

506
00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:59,080
Speaker 1: to me, and I kind of feel the same way

507
00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:02,360
Speaker 1: about this book. Do you see that at all? Or

508
00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:07,080
Speaker 1: do you think that's a common thread sometimes with people

509
00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:11,360
Speaker 1: that are accused or convicted of something and then go

510
00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:12,360
Speaker 1: on and write a book.

511
00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:16,680
Speaker 2: I absolutely do. First of all, I couldnot imagine murdering somebody,

512
00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:22,120
Speaker 2: because I'm the person who probably confess having not murdered somebody.

513
00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:25,680
Speaker 2: I'm not a good candidate for that. But I can

514
00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:29,640
Speaker 2: certainly tell you that most people who murder somebody else,

515
00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:32,960
Speaker 2: and even in a premeditated way, would not go on

516
00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:35,960
Speaker 2: to try to capitalize on it in this kind of way.

517
00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:38,480
Speaker 2: And you're absolutely right. I think when you talk about

518
00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:43,280
Speaker 2: certain it's particularly when you're talking about premeditated murder. It

519
00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:48,800
Speaker 2: does take certain personality traits to be willing to murder

520
00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:51,600
Speaker 2: somebody and to think and plant it out.

521
00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:55,400
Speaker 1: Especially poison, right, because this is not quick, this is

522
00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:56,320
Speaker 1: the long game.

523
00:29:56,520 --> 00:29:58,840
Speaker 2: Absolutely. You know. It's funny, Cheryl. I read an article

524
00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:02,160
Speaker 2: a few years ago on the psychological profile of a poisoner.

525
00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:06,719
Speaker 2: There were some pretty common threads that appear. You know.

526
00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:10,760
Speaker 2: One was that, you know, individuals who tend to murder

527
00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:13,040
Speaker 2: by poison, we always think of them as women, which,

528
00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:16,400
Speaker 2: as a matter of fact, that is incorrect. The more

529
00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:20,040
Speaker 2: men murdered by poison than women, but that's because men

530
00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:23,240
Speaker 2: murder a lot more often than women in general. So

531
00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:28,440
Speaker 2: when we're looking at weapon choice statistically, meaning okay, what

532
00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:33,280
Speaker 2: percentage of male murderers pick poison versus women, A lot

533
00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:36,440
Speaker 2: more women pick that, if that makes sense. So it's

534
00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:40,240
Speaker 2: more popular among female murderers. And I think there's for

535
00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:41,600
Speaker 2: a couple of reasons. So I say, when you look

536
00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:43,520
Speaker 2: at some of the personality profiles, you see people who

537
00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:49,520
Speaker 2: are somewhat immature, somewhat entitled. They're often very sneaky and manipulative.

538
00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:51,960
Speaker 2: I mean, oftentimes, when you know you have somebody who

539
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:55,040
Speaker 2: strangles somebody else. Are we surprised if there's a history

540
00:30:55,080 --> 00:31:00,280
Speaker 2: of domestic violence. No, there's often a history of anger,

541
00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:04,640
Speaker 2: of impulsivity, of kind of reactive aggression, those kinds of things.

542
00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:07,960
Speaker 2: People who tend to murder with poison, you don't see

543
00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:10,760
Speaker 2: that as much. Can't they be violent, Yes, but typically

544
00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:15,160
Speaker 2: when they're caught doing something, they're much more likely as

545
00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:18,920
Speaker 2: a group to be sneaky again, to try to manipulate

546
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:21,800
Speaker 2: the situation. They can pretend to be loving, caring or

547
00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:24,520
Speaker 2: whatever while stabbing somebody in the back, in the back

548
00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:26,600
Speaker 2: behind them. And those are the kind of you know,

549
00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:29,200
Speaker 2: the kind of personality traits we tend to see very

550
00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:33,440
Speaker 2: self centered, somewhat narcissistic in terms of their orientation to life.

551
00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:36,440
Speaker 2: I deserve things, and so they tend to tell themselves

552
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:40,320
Speaker 2: a story that I deserve these things, and when bad

553
00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:42,520
Speaker 2: things happen to me, it's never my fault.

554
00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:45,920
Speaker 1: And maybe doctor, that's what I'm seeing when I say

555
00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:50,080
Speaker 1: she's arrogant. Maybe what you just described is more on

556
00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:54,360
Speaker 1: point that she sees herself almost as a victim, like

557
00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:57,440
Speaker 1: I deserve this money, I deserve nice things. Because I

558
00:31:57,560 --> 00:32:02,160
Speaker 1: notice she doesn't say my children nanny. She says my nanny.

559
00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:05,080
Speaker 2: I think that's definitely true, that the story in her head,

560
00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:09,400
Speaker 2: if what we know about her is true, is likely

561
00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:12,960
Speaker 2: very much. I'm a victim here, and that if I

562
00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:15,640
Speaker 2: did do anything to my husband, it's because he deserved it,

563
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:19,320
Speaker 2: because he should have whatever given me all of his money,

564
00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:21,760
Speaker 2: never done a pre notp who knows what that is.

565
00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:24,840
Speaker 2: But there's probably in her head, if this is true,

566
00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:29,920
Speaker 2: a long list of grievances real or imagined in her head,

567
00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:33,120
Speaker 2: and she has confessed herself that he really deserves us.

568
00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:38,240
Speaker 1: So, keeping with that same thread, on Valentine's Day, with

569
00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:43,320
Speaker 1: that sandwich she made, she included a love note to him,

570
00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:46,440
Speaker 1: the number one. I'd love to see it. I would

571
00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:49,880
Speaker 1: love to see exactly how she worded that love note

572
00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:52,880
Speaker 1: and then cross check it with some of the things

573
00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:55,600
Speaker 1: that are written in the book. I'm fascinated by that.

574
00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:59,800
Speaker 1: If this was premeditated, and if she did it to me,

575
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:04,600
Speaker 1: including a love note is on a different level of.

576
00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:10,200
Speaker 2: Sinister speculating that again, if all these allegations are true,

577
00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:15,720
Speaker 2: I can't think of really giving somebody the finger more

578
00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:18,120
Speaker 2: effectively in a way than doing something like this on

579
00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:20,640
Speaker 2: Valentine's Day, I mean, it really does seem to be

580
00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:23,240
Speaker 2: such a sign of just rage and contempt.

581
00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:26,040
Speaker 1: One other thing that you and I talked about that

582
00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:29,120
Speaker 1: leaped out at both of us in this book is

583
00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:32,560
Speaker 1: Corey ain't in it. She doesn't depict herself reading the

584
00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:37,160
Speaker 1: book to her own children. She doesn't illustrate herself except

585
00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:40,640
Speaker 1: in one photograph where her back is to everybody as

586
00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:42,520
Speaker 1: a crime analyst. I'm going to look at that and

587
00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:45,160
Speaker 1: I'm going to say, well, that's because she's distancing herself

588
00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:47,440
Speaker 1: from the crime. She didn't want to talk about it.

589
00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:49,080
Speaker 1: She doesn't want to be a part of it. She

590
00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:52,280
Speaker 1: doesn't want anybody to see her in conjunction with what

591
00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:55,320
Speaker 1: has occurred. Do you have any feeling one way or

592
00:33:55,320 --> 00:34:01,200
Speaker 1: the other about her not including herself or her individual children?

593
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:04,120
Speaker 1: She says, the little boy in the book is a

594
00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:05,640
Speaker 1: combination of all three of them.

595
00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:08,240
Speaker 2: I have to say I thought it was very odd, Cheryl,

596
00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:10,759
Speaker 2: that she is now er in that book, you know,

597
00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:13,719
Speaker 2: even off to the side or around the Christmas tree.

598
00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:15,839
Speaker 2: That did stand out to me, And you really really

599
00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:17,600
Speaker 2: point picked up on that before I did. But I

600
00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:22,719
Speaker 2: thought that was very very significant. I can excuse or explain,

601
00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:26,080
Speaker 2: you know, three boys who are kind of represented by

602
00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:28,000
Speaker 2: these three, five, seven, and nine year olds. I mean,

603
00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:30,080
Speaker 2: I could I can kind of justify that, I guess

604
00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:33,920
Speaker 2: in my head, but they're being really no mention. It

605
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:37,560
Speaker 2: just it almost made me wonder what kind of attachment

606
00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:40,600
Speaker 2: she has to her boys or what kind of relationships

607
00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:43,440
Speaker 2: she's had with them, because there is this absence of that.

608
00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:47,319
Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about the title are you with Me?

609
00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:51,239
Speaker 1: That could also be a statement that you say to

610
00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:54,799
Speaker 1: the drug dealer, to your nanny, to anybody else that

611
00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:58,960
Speaker 1: you think should support your story, your version, your alibi.

612
00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:02,399
Speaker 1: Are you with me? Like are we together? So when

613
00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:05,759
Speaker 1: I look at other things like Gasey, you know, the

614
00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:09,000
Speaker 1: title of his book was a question of Doubt. To me,

615
00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:13,240
Speaker 1: that's just hilarious. You know that again he picked that title,

616
00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:16,279
Speaker 1: she picked that title. And if you look at other

617
00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:21,600
Speaker 1: people like Gaskins, his title Final Truth, Rollin's the maskin

618
00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:24,440
Speaker 1: of a serial Killer. The son of Sam wrote a

619
00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:27,319
Speaker 1: book and called it the Son of Hope. I mean,

620
00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:31,040
Speaker 1: all of these folks are using these books for their

621
00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:34,359
Speaker 1: own personal gain, whether it's to put their version out there,

622
00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:36,880
Speaker 1: whether it's to make money, whether it's to fool you.

623
00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:41,680
Speaker 1: Conyu whatever. But Van der Sloot, I mean, he wrote

624
00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:45,000
Speaker 1: a book and the title he gave was The Case

625
00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:50,319
Speaker 1: of Natalie Holloway, my own story about her disappearance in Aruba.

626
00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:52,160
Speaker 1: First of all, right, off the bat, he calls it

627
00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:55,279
Speaker 1: a case. He knows it's a criminal case. And then

628
00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:57,960
Speaker 1: he says he's only going to talk about her disappearance.

629
00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:00,400
Speaker 1: So he's telling you, I'm a punk, ain't going to

630
00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:02,480
Speaker 1: talk about her murder. I'm just going to talk about

631
00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:05,560
Speaker 1: her disappearance. I mean, it's just it's baffling to me.

632
00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:08,120
Speaker 1: And then, of course one of the old time favorites

633
00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:13,160
Speaker 1: ever oj if I did it so again with her,

634
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:15,560
Speaker 1: the title bothers me.

635
00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:19,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, I understand that. I do understand that, but I

636
00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:21,040
Speaker 2: think that does kind of stand out that she does

637
00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:23,760
Speaker 2: is kind of focusing on this children's book, her putting

638
00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:26,920
Speaker 2: her kids in front, like as an image versus I

639
00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:29,000
Speaker 2: don't know that I get a sense of attachment to them,

640
00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:32,120
Speaker 2: like I was saying right that, she's I think talking

641
00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:35,440
Speaker 2: about her own needs through her children, you know.

642
00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:38,600
Speaker 1: Sherlock Holms said, to a great mind, nothing is little.

643
00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:43,160
Speaker 1: That's how I feel about this book. Every single word

644
00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:47,960
Speaker 1: you chose from the title to the dedication to every

645
00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:52,759
Speaker 1: single page matters because you picked it. You could have

646
00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:56,439
Speaker 1: called this book coping without my Dad. You could call

647
00:36:56,480 --> 00:36:59,799
Speaker 1: it I miss him. But I'm going to do things

648
00:36:59,880 --> 00:37:03,160
Speaker 1: for him, right Like I'm gonna remember him by releasing

649
00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:07,560
Speaker 1: a balloon or naming my dog his nickname. Something she

650
00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:08,480
Speaker 1: didn't do that.

651
00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:12,920
Speaker 2: You know, I think this whole issue of why she

652
00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:16,280
Speaker 2: would do that, What kind of person would take advantage

653
00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:19,520
Speaker 2: of the situation or posture herself in a certain way

654
00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:22,879
Speaker 2: or whatever. I mean, all these details which are so

655
00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:26,680
Speaker 2: significant in and of themselves. It's like when you put

656
00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:30,680
Speaker 2: him together, Cheryl, it's I mean, the picture is just

657
00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:35,040
Speaker 2: it's just it's incredible. I mean, we all keep saying

658
00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:39,560
Speaker 2: that to me. Every page has little nuggets, but what

659
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:41,919
Speaker 2: it adds up to is what just bowls me over.

660
00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:44,799
Speaker 1: Well, doctor, I can't thank you enough for being with us,

661
00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:47,080
Speaker 1: and I can't thank you enough for sharing not just

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00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:51,640
Speaker 1: your knowledge and brilliance and insight, but again keeping us grounded.

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00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:54,399
Speaker 2: Well, it was an absolute pleasure. I'm a big fan

664
00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:57,480
Speaker 2: of you, as you know, so I loved it. Thank

665
00:37:57,520 --> 00:37:59,200
Speaker 2: you for having me, y'all.

666
00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:00,839
Speaker 1: I'm going to end Zone seven the way that I

667
00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:06,080
Speaker 1: always do with a quote. Tonight's quote comes from Lieutenant

668
00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:09,719
Speaker 1: Joe Kinda. You never speak to anybody and get the

669
00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:14,840
Speaker 1: truth parts of it, pieces of it, but it's always

670
00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:19,319
Speaker 1: just a little out of focus. I'm Cheryl McCollum and

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00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:20,320
Speaker 1: this is on seven