Speaker 1: By labeling your feelings, trying to understand them, trying to
Speaker 1: express them in a constructive way, you're going to really
Speaker 1: avoid a lot of fighting and a lot of arguing
Speaker 1: and conflict. Welcome to the one you feed Throughout time,
Speaker 1: great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have.
Speaker 1: Quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what
Speaker 1: you think ring true. And yet for many of us,
Speaker 1: our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity,
Speaker 1: self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't
Speaker 1: have instead of what we do. We think things that
Speaker 1: hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not
Speaker 1: just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent,
Speaker 1: and creative effort to make a life worth living. This
Speaker 1: podcast is about how other people themselves moving in the
Speaker 1: right direction, how they feed their good wolf. Thanks for
Speaker 1: joining us. Our guest on this episode is Cindy Goodman Staalberg.
Speaker 1: She's an internationally respected psychologist and director for the Institute
Speaker 1: of Interpersonal Psychotherapy. She's provided psychological assessment and counseling for individuals, couples, groups,
Speaker 1: and families for over thirty five years. Her book is
Speaker 1: Feeling Better, Beat Depression and Improve Your Relationships with Interpersonal Psychotherapy. Hi, Cindy,
Speaker 1: Welcome to the show. Hi. Thank you very much for
Speaker 1: having me on today and giving me the opportunity to
Speaker 1: talk to you and your listeners. My pleasure. Your book
Speaker 1: is called Feeling Better, Beat to Depression and Improve Your
Speaker 1: Relationships with Interpersonal Psychotherapy, and we will get into details
Speaker 1: about the book in a minute, but first let's start
Speaker 1: like we always do. There's a grandmother who's talking with
Speaker 1: her grandson and she says, in life, there are two
Speaker 1: wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One
Speaker 1: is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and
Speaker 1: bravery and love, and the other is a bad wolf,
Speaker 1: which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And
Speaker 1: the grandson stops and he thinks about it for a second,
Speaker 1: and he looks up at his grandmother says, well, grandmother,
Speaker 1: which one wins? And the grandmother says, the one you feed.
Speaker 1: It's interesting parable, isn't it. Yeah, So I'd like to
Speaker 1: start off by asking you what that parable means to
Speaker 1: you in your life and in the work that you do. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: I think, certainly as a grandmother it's it's fun for
Speaker 1: me to to think about those issues, and it speaks
Speaker 1: to really what I think is the wide range of
Speaker 1: emotions we all experience. Right, So if we were on
Speaker 1: a desert island, it wouldn't matter as much how we
Speaker 1: behaved as a result of those feelings. But because most
Speaker 1: of us really interact with so many people, you know,
Speaker 1: on a daily basis, I think it's how we deal
Speaker 1: with those feelings, those wolves, how we express or don't
Speaker 1: express our huge range of emotions. Right, Not that being
Speaker 1: unhappy or mad or angry is bad per se, but
Speaker 1: what how we express them and the impact that's going
Speaker 1: to have on our relationships that I think is the
Speaker 1: most important part of what you know, the parable says
Speaker 1: to me in my life, and really what the book
Speaker 1: is all about. Wonderful. Early on in the book, you say,
Speaker 1: we want to let you in on a secret. Your
Speaker 1: relationships hold the key to your happiness. Not your bank account,
Speaker 1: your job, a Caribbean vacation, having a baby, not having
Speaker 1: a baby, getting a promotion, building your dream kitchen, are
Speaker 1: losing ten pounds. Those things may give you a momentary boost,
Speaker 1: but it's your relationships with your friends, family, spouse, girlfriend, boyfriend,
Speaker 1: co workers, and neighbors, even your hairdresser, that will determine
Speaker 1: whether you're happy for the long term. Absolutely, I think
Speaker 1: that's what really I p t. It's interpersonal psychotherapy, which
Speaker 1: is the model that the book is based on. Is
Speaker 1: based on the premise that if you have good, meaningful,
Speaker 1: constructive relationships, you're going to feel better. And if you're
Speaker 1: struggling with depression or mood difficulties and you have good
Speaker 1: meaningful relationships, then the symptoms of the depression will reduce
Speaker 1: and diminish more quickly. So that's really the focus of
Speaker 1: what I certainly believe and I think we find when
Speaker 1: we do address um people's mood difficulties. It comes from
Speaker 1: the con flicks they're having with others, or the stresses
Speaker 1: or the disappointments, or if someone has lost a loved
Speaker 1: one in terms of the death of someone, or maybe
Speaker 1: there's been a huge transition in in moving cities or
Speaker 1: losing a job or being divorced, your relationships are are
Speaker 1: profoundly affected and it it then results in whether you
Speaker 1: feel good about situation and what's happening, or whether you
Speaker 1: don't feel very good about it. Yeah, you say that
Speaker 1: the founders of interpersonal psychotherapy saw a pattern, and that
Speaker 1: was that people who had depression were experiencing problems in
Speaker 1: at least one of four different areas when they became depressed,
Speaker 1: life transitions, complicated grief, social isolation, or interpersonal conflict. Yes,
Speaker 1: I think that's something that you can see, um for
Speaker 1: yourself or others around do. So those areas were commonly
Speaker 1: what would kind of trigger a depressive episode. So being
Speaker 1: able to look at when you became depressed or when
Speaker 1: you were having difficulty, if you could sit back and say, well, yeah,
Speaker 1: that was when um, my friend and I got into
Speaker 1: a you know, serious argument and we stopped speaking to
Speaker 1: one another. While the result is that you're lonely and
Speaker 1: you're distressed, and you're just you know, pretty sad about
Speaker 1: what you've lost um or if you've you know, if
Speaker 1: you've lost a loved one. Sometimes you know, these are
Speaker 1: common situations, but for some people they struggle with that
Speaker 1: in a more profound way. So if someone passed away
Speaker 1: a number of years ago, but you feel still almost
Speaker 1: exactly the same as you felt when they died, or
Speaker 1: you never even let yourself feel sadness or loss of that,
Speaker 1: that will affect your mood and how you're feeling, or
Speaker 1: you go through a transition, you know, if you've lost
Speaker 1: a job or you have a baby, even if it's
Speaker 1: a good thing, you know, I um, you know, I
Speaker 1: don't know what but your experience. But certainly when I
Speaker 1: had my children it was a huge adjustment. I mean
Speaker 1: I thought, here, I'm a psychologist, I know what I'm doing,
Speaker 1: and I was open for a rude awakening as to
Speaker 1: how hard it was and what a big adjustment it
Speaker 1: was in my life. Or if a person struggles with
Speaker 1: making relationships or sustaining them and feels very isolated, those
Speaker 1: things for sure you're going to see how they affect
Speaker 1: your mood. Well you probably would see that as well,
Speaker 1: don't you think. Yeah. I think this was a part
Speaker 1: of the book though, that I wrestled with a little bit,
Speaker 1: because because my experience of depression has been now again,
Speaker 1: what's difficult for me to know is like to take
Speaker 1: it all way back to where it started. It might
Speaker 1: very well have been any of those things. But when
Speaker 1: I get depression these days, it really seems to me
Speaker 1: that I can't tie it to anything right because I
Speaker 1: look and this is in my life today now, plenty
Speaker 1: of times in the past that I had depression, there
Speaker 1: were one of those four things for sure happening. But
Speaker 1: as I've grown, I find that less and less the case.
Speaker 1: I feel like those areas of my life all feel
Speaker 1: pretty good, and yet sometimes it's still there, and I
Speaker 1: think that can be the case. But I think it's
Speaker 1: interesting too when clients talk to me or or readers,
Speaker 1: they'll say, if you go back and you look at
Speaker 1: what was happening that day, what were you doing in
Speaker 1: the morning, what did you do the day before, who
Speaker 1: did you interact with? Was there something that bothered you
Speaker 1: or upset you or distressed you. So when you go
Speaker 1: back and look at it, oftentimes people can pick out
Speaker 1: something that was distress sing to them or you know,
Speaker 1: upsetting to them or frustrating or made them angry. But
Speaker 1: on the other hand, too, sometimes there's a big difference
Speaker 1: between clinical depression and feeling sad. So if you have
Speaker 1: a day where you're not feeling great and you're not
Speaker 1: even sure what's bothering you or what's bugging you, But
Speaker 1: the next day you get up and you're feeling better,
Speaker 1: then you're not necessarily need to look for what's going
Speaker 1: on in my relationships. But in this particular model, oftentimes
Speaker 1: people can pick something they can say this past week,
Speaker 1: this is what I was dealing with, this is what
Speaker 1: caused me stress, and then we help them work on
Speaker 1: how they can help themselves deal with That makes sense,
Speaker 1: and so let's talk about One of the things that
Speaker 1: interpersonal psychotherapy goes through is it's an eight to twelve
Speaker 1: week program and the book is set up to walk
Speaker 1: you through each of those weeks like you would if
Speaker 1: you were seeing uh an interpersonal psychotherapist. And so we're
Speaker 1: not going to get through all of those, but one
Speaker 1: of them is to draw your social circle and then
Speaker 1: ask yourself some questions about that. Can you sort of
Speaker 1: walk me through this exercise. I think it's very helpful
Speaker 1: for people who aren't sitting really looking and examining their
Speaker 1: relationships in details. So the social circle is really valuable
Speaker 1: in the sense of looking at relationships not as all
Speaker 1: good or all bad, which we tend to sometimes do
Speaker 1: and we say, well, that person is terrible and they
Speaker 1: did this to me and I really am mad at them.
Speaker 1: But instead, if you look at each of your significant
Speaker 1: relationships and as you say, we draw it out on
Speaker 1: a piece of paper and your name goes in the middle,
Speaker 1: and there may be three concentric circles, and you can
Speaker 1: put people who are important to you in different spots.
Speaker 1: You look at the questions are what's your contact like,
Speaker 1: what do you talk about with that person when do
Speaker 1: you see them? And then what do you like about
Speaker 1: the relationship, and what don't you like about the relationship
Speaker 1: and what would you like to be different? So the
Speaker 1: purpose is really to look at your relationships on a
Speaker 1: spectrum versus black or white, not all good or all bad, right,
Speaker 1: And also it gives you an opportunity to think about
Speaker 1: the things you would like to be different in that relationship.
Speaker 1: And it also helps you look at are their potential
Speaker 1: people in my social circle who I haven't connected with
Speaker 1: for a while, Did I really feel that they were
Speaker 1: supportive and caring? And maybe I'd like to nurture those
Speaker 1: relationships again. So the social circle is really a very
Speaker 1: dynamic piece of work, or you know, the information you
Speaker 1: gather in doing it so that those things can change.
Speaker 1: During the weeks that we work together, we either address
Speaker 1: one relationship in particular that's causing you maybe more distress
Speaker 1: or conflict or problems than another but then also you
Speaker 1: can look at the other relationships and maybe it's a
Speaker 1: place also to look for support and for care and
Speaker 1: concern from. Who are the people who I who I
Speaker 1: can lean on or can talk to, or can open
Speaker 1: up to and can help me through a difficult situation.
Speaker 1: So really, the social circle has I think has a
Speaker 1: lot of benefits and it's quite fun to do. I mean,
Speaker 1: I've done it myself as well, and it's like, well
Speaker 1: where am I going to put this person? Should I
Speaker 1: make them closer to me or further away? Those are
Speaker 1: the kind of things sometimes that are are enlightening. Some
Speaker 1: people social circles are very limited and they don't have
Speaker 1: many relationships. And for those people, we want to help
Speaker 1: them begin to expand their interpersonal networks or inventory and
Speaker 1: build relationships that will be meaningful to them. That brings
Speaker 1: up a really good question, and I think sits at
Speaker 1: the heart of a lot of this and a lot
Speaker 1: of people that listen to the show. And if you
Speaker 1: read the research statistics right across America was this epidemic
Speaker 1: of of loneliness that we're hearing about. So what are
Speaker 1: ways for people who don't have a very robust social circle,
Speaker 1: What are some of the ways you recommend to go
Speaker 1: about starting to change and build that well. I think
Speaker 1: there are steps that can be taken, especially small steps
Speaker 1: to begin with. So if you think about who you
Speaker 1: might have had contact with, and that's why we even
Speaker 1: say like the hairdresser can be helpful, or bartenders are
Speaker 1: sometimes the best people to talk to write they they
Speaker 1: they're easy people to speak if so, you really have
Speaker 1: to be prepared to kind of get out of your house.
Speaker 1: That's one thing or what I would say, And it's
Speaker 1: interesting is the idea of even connecting online, you know,
Speaker 1: people who are reluctant or someone anxious about connecting with
Speaker 1: other people. There are some benefits to online connections and
Speaker 1: groups because it gives you an opportunity to practice some
Speaker 1: of the skills of what am I going to say?
Speaker 1: How am I going to start a conversation? Right? Am
Speaker 1: I going to talk to someone and ask them if
Speaker 1: they've gone through feeling concerned about? Well, what if I
Speaker 1: approach somebody and I don't really know what to say?
Speaker 1: So we encourage those people who are isolated, who are lonely,
Speaker 1: who haven't had, you know, practiced the skills or of
Speaker 1: of engaging with others to do that, to try it out,
Speaker 1: and we have have conversation starters, so we don't tell
Speaker 1: people who are reading the book, oh, go do it.
Speaker 1: We give them some very specific, you know, sentences and
Speaker 1: statements to you know, to make so that they know
Speaker 1: what to say, you know, if they to the person
Speaker 1: who gave them coffee, or to their hairdresser when they
Speaker 1: go for a haircut, or if they go to the
Speaker 1: grocery store and they can ask the person, you know,
Speaker 1: how they're feeling, or you know, engage in in small
Speaker 1: talk there, so they're very specific strategies, or to even
Speaker 1: ask someone else, you know, have you ever had difficulty
Speaker 1: making friends? Have you ever had difficulty um sustaining some relationships?
Speaker 1: And and doing that really give you information and you
Speaker 1: sometimes find out that other people experience the same feelings
Speaker 1: that you do, and you don't feel as alone and
Speaker 1: you don't feel as isolated. So that's kind of one
Speaker 1: step for people who are you know, who are lonely,
Speaker 1: who are isolated, who are are less not as engaged
Speaker 1: with other people. So at one point in the book,
Speaker 1: you talk about the difference between feelings and moods. Can
Speaker 1: you help me understand the difference between feelings and moods, well,
Speaker 1: I think there's there's quite an overlap. I although in
Speaker 1: terms of feelings, what we encourage people to do is
Speaker 1: to um maybe label or identify their feelings. So it
Speaker 1: helps in terms of when you certainly people tend to
Speaker 1: feel angry, and it's it's it's kind of easy to
Speaker 1: get angry, but it's harder to identify what other feelings
Speaker 1: you might be experiencing underneath the anger. So besides being angry,
Speaker 1: you could be frustrated, or you could be disappointed, or
Speaker 1: you could be sad. And I think we really try
Speaker 1: to encourage people to look at more than just the
Speaker 1: one feeling. And in our book, for sure, we have
Speaker 1: a list of many, many, many feelings, so you can
Speaker 1: pick in shoes. And you've probably seen those feeling charts
Speaker 1: right with the happy faces or the faces with all
Speaker 1: the different labels on them. You all getting an example
Speaker 1: the other day, I know I had gotten annoyed at
Speaker 1: my husband for for not doing something. You know, it
Speaker 1: was a matter of meeting with a friend, and he
Speaker 1: didn't ask the questions I'd asked him to to, you know,
Speaker 1: to enquire about and instead of just getting mad, or angry.
Speaker 1: He said to me, He said, you had told me
Speaker 1: that you were over the difficulties in that relationship. And
Speaker 1: I could have gotten mad at him, and I could
Speaker 1: have gotten you know, told him he was a jerk,
Speaker 1: or why didn't he do it? But instead I thought
Speaker 1: about what he said, and I said, you know what,
Speaker 1: maybe I'm not over it. Maybe I'm still sad about it.
Speaker 1: Maybe I'm still feeling, you know, the loss or feelings
Speaker 1: of rejection. And and I thought I was more over
Speaker 1: it than I was. So by labeling your feelings, trying
Speaker 1: to understand them, trying to express them in a constructive way,
Speaker 1: you're going to really avoid a lot of fighting and
Speaker 1: a lot of arguing and conflict. But then, moods really
Speaker 1: are a conglomeration of feelings. You know, you may be
Speaker 1: in a depressed mood, and we have lots of feelings
Speaker 1: that that contribute to that. That were irritable, that we
Speaker 1: were unmotivated, that we're sad, that we're angry, that we're
Speaker 1: not interested, we don't experience joy or pleasure. So really
Speaker 1: moods can be more of a kind of broader category
Speaker 1: of a lot of different feelings. One of the things
Speaker 1: that you have is ten questions for emotional enlightenment, UM,
Speaker 1: and I and I like these. Obviously by enlightenment you
Speaker 1: mean lightening up, of course, But let's walk through these
Speaker 1: because I actually think that these are good questions that
Speaker 1: can help us to identify what we're feeling and to
Speaker 1: sort of tie what we're feeling to situations. So let's
Speaker 1: just go ahead and and walk through those ten if
Speaker 1: that's all right with you. I think there's a huge
Speaker 1: component of awareness. So being able to be as aware, UM,
Speaker 1: as much as you can in terms of you can
Speaker 1: ask yourself how my feeling, so you know, think of
Speaker 1: what it is you're experiencing. And I think it's you know,
Speaker 1: maybe I'm being stereotypical, but it's harder for guys sometimes
Speaker 1: to do this than girls, like you know, women tend
Speaker 1: to emote all over the place, but you know, being
Speaker 1: able to I say, what's making me feel this way,
Speaker 1: you know, being specific about it. What was making me
Speaker 1: feel bad the other day was that I was feeling
Speaker 1: sad and rejected by an old friendship I had had.
Speaker 1: You know, how do I usually handle this? That gives
Speaker 1: you a chance to examine how you usually respond. The
Speaker 1: next question is well, what happens when I handle things
Speaker 1: that way? So you get an opportunity to look at
Speaker 1: the way you handle your feelings. And the question that
Speaker 1: I often ask somebody is well, how's that working for you?
Speaker 1: You know? And often it isn't working for them. So
Speaker 1: by by looking at how you handle it and then
Speaker 1: asking yourself again, well, how does it make me feel
Speaker 1: when I handle it in that way? So when I'm impatient,
Speaker 1: or I'm frustrated, or I don't listen, I don't feel
Speaker 1: that good about it afterwards, So I can really evaluate
Speaker 1: and say to myself, maybe I want to learn how
Speaker 1: to handle it differently, right, And and then the other
Speaker 1: question becomes how do other people who are involved feel?
Speaker 1: So it's really important. You know, it's easy for us
Speaker 1: to you know, blame others or not take responsibility for ourselves,
Speaker 1: or or justify well, I have every reason to be
Speaker 1: mad by the way they treated me depending on how
Speaker 1: I respond, it's really useful for me to know, well,
Speaker 1: how did they feel when I was angry, when I
Speaker 1: was mad, when I was short tempered with them? So
Speaker 1: being able to understand my situation and my feelings, but
Speaker 1: also considering am is crucially important, right, because you know
Speaker 1: that its relationships are about, you know, to two people,
Speaker 1: two or more people, and how the impact of what
Speaker 1: I do and what they do has on each other. Right. So,
Speaker 1: and then I enjoy try to look at what could
Speaker 1: I do differently? So in the book we spend a
Speaker 1: lot of time trying to examine is there a different approach,
Speaker 1: is there a different idea, is there a different way?
Speaker 1: It's really the interpersonal style, and and my co author
Speaker 1: Ron tends to talk about this a lot, is what's
Speaker 1: your style of interacting? Do you interact aggressively? Do you
Speaker 1: interact by being really passive? Do you interact by trying
Speaker 1: to be clear about what you're saying? So it it
Speaker 1: makes a huge difference. And if I do interact differently,
Speaker 1: what impact or what effect might that have on other people?
Speaker 1: So it's a great way to break it down to
Speaker 1: help people take a look at what they're doing now
Speaker 1: and how could I be doing it differently and making
Speaker 1: it work better for me and the other people I'm
Speaker 1: involved with. Yeah, I really like the way that just
Speaker 1: sort of starts from how my feeling and kind of
Speaker 1: walks all the way through to how are other people feeling?
Speaker 1: And then you know, what is my habitual response to this?
Speaker 1: What happens when I respond that way habitually? And then
Speaker 1: you know one of my favorite questions of all time,
Speaker 1: and I use it in coaching work with people a lot,
Speaker 1: is what could we do differently? You know, what can
Speaker 1: you do differently? That's such a powerful question because a
Speaker 1: lot of times we get about as far as I
Speaker 1: shouldn't have done that, which is which is okay, that's good,
Speaker 1: But now what instead? Because that question what can I
Speaker 1: do differently? If we ask it in a really curious
Speaker 1: and open way, can unlock a lot of things. And
Speaker 1: if we're not sure, then the idea is to who
Speaker 1: can help us figure it out? And even if you
Speaker 1: ask the other person, if I said something to you
Speaker 1: and you didn't like the way I said it, what
Speaker 1: if I said, you know, Eric, how could I have
Speaker 1: said that differently? That would have made you feel better
Speaker 1: or wouldn't have sounded critical? So I think it's, you know,
Speaker 1: in terms of figuring out how to do something different,
Speaker 1: why not ask the other person? Right? Right? That is
Speaker 1: a great idea that to me is a really important
Speaker 1: thing to do. When we feel we want to help people,
Speaker 1: we have our own ideas of how we want to
Speaker 1: do it. But if I ask somebody what would be
Speaker 1: helpful to you? What could I do that would make
Speaker 1: us communicating better? And I think that's really important with
Speaker 1: with kids and adolescence because you know, that's fraught with
Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of problems trying to you know,
Speaker 1: trying to solve a conflict with an adolescent. You know,
Speaker 1: when you say, well, they're not listening to me, or
Speaker 1: they're not you know, doing what I've asked them to do. Well,
Speaker 1: what is it that I'm doing that isn't as effective?
Speaker 1: How could I engage differently? And the best person to
Speaker 1: ask is is to ask the kids saying is there
Speaker 1: is there a way that I could speak to you
Speaker 1: about this or discuss this topic with you that would
Speaker 1: make it easier for us not to argue right? That
Speaker 1: to me is a very valuable and And And the idea is,
Speaker 1: you know, you could feel like you're doing nothing wrong
Speaker 1: and and the kids are pain in the butt, right,
Speaker 1: But the point is doesn't matter. It does. You don't
Speaker 1: have to be right or wrong. You just have to
Speaker 1: find a way to communicate better, right, and to solve
Speaker 1: the problem. So by putting it on yourself and saying,
Speaker 1: I really don't want to argue with you. I want
Speaker 1: to understand what's going on here. Can you tell me
Speaker 1: what would work better for the both of us? Right,
Speaker 1: And those conversations are much or fruitful, I find. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's a great idea. The other thing that you say,
Speaker 1: and I think this is so important, you say, human
Speaker 1: interactions and the relationships that grow from them can't be
Speaker 1: reduced to mathematical equations. If I always do X, the
Speaker 1: end result will always be why. If we try something
Speaker 1: and it doesn't work once, it's not game over. If
Speaker 1: we intend to try something new and things go sideways,
Speaker 1: it's not a forever failure. And this makes me think
Speaker 1: back to a previous relationship of mine where our communication
Speaker 1: was disastrous and I would suddenly decide that I was
Speaker 1: going to deal with this in a new and better way,
Speaker 1: and so I would think about what that new and
Speaker 1: better way was, and I'd come to the conversation and
Speaker 1: I would trot out my new skills, and the other
Speaker 1: person would just react in the same way and you know,
Speaker 1: same anger, same fighting, and I would then be like, well,
Speaker 1: I tried something new and that didn't work, so, you know,
Speaker 1: I mean I I just I just throw away. And
Speaker 1: what I what I find realized over a period of
Speaker 1: time was that a dynamic that had been built between
Speaker 1: us didn't change because I showed up one time to
Speaker 1: do things differently. I needed to show up consistently with
Speaker 1: this new approach um. And it took me a while
Speaker 1: to figure that out because I would just get so angry,
Speaker 1: like I'm doing something different but you're not. I think
Speaker 1: that's such an important thing. You know it's not a
Speaker 1: forever failure, and now you know the next time you
Speaker 1: try something different with someone else, you're not going to
Speaker 1: expect it to work immediately. That's the good news is
Speaker 1: you know what you did, and you know what you learned,
Speaker 1: and you can take those skills and use them in
Speaker 1: future relationships as well, right, which is what I p
Speaker 1: T does. You want to focus on one area, You
Speaker 1: pick a goal and you work on that for the
Speaker 1: eight or twelve weeks, so and you know what you
Speaker 1: did that helped you feel better. And also I think
Speaker 1: partly we encourage people when they've tried something new. So
Speaker 1: if you had reported you know, I went and I
Speaker 1: figured out how to interact differently, I would say to you,
Speaker 1: no matter what the outcome, no matter what the other
Speaker 1: person does, pay attention to how you feel about when
Speaker 1: you tried it differently. So if I asked you even now,
Speaker 1: most people I would say, say, well, it felt good
Speaker 1: to try it, to to behave differently, And that's a
Speaker 1: little victory in a win as well. Right, So, if
Speaker 1: you were reluctant, if you were uncertain, if you usually
Speaker 1: behave in a way that isn't you know, you don't
Speaker 1: feel proud of but you tried something new, Well that
Speaker 1: you know, that's terrific. It's terrific that you were willing
Speaker 1: to put it out there no matter what the other
Speaker 1: person did. So that that to me is a very
Speaker 1: important and valuable piece to pay attention to. Yeah, you
Speaker 1: have a phrase that you guys use through the book
Speaker 1: over and over, and it's to ask, what's the best
Speaker 1: that could happen, what's the worst that could happen, and
Speaker 1: what's the most likely outcome? Give me some examples where
Speaker 1: that's a useful line of questioning. Well, I think it's
Speaker 1: preparing everybody to say, partly what's realistic? So I think
Speaker 1: that's that's one of the areas that's really helpful So
Speaker 1: if I, um, you know, I want to approach somebody
Speaker 1: and I want to you know, say to my kids,
Speaker 1: you know, or I want to talk to my partner
Speaker 1: about how we're dealing with the children, and and I say, well,
Speaker 1: I never want to be the best parent I can be.
Speaker 1: I never want to argue or yell at them ever again. Well,
Speaker 1: you know, and I'm trying to figure out how to
Speaker 1: do this right, how to accomplish this. Well, if I say, well,
Speaker 1: what's the best outcome that you could have by approaching
Speaker 1: your kids and saying, you know, I'm never going to
Speaker 1: argue with you again, We're going to figure this out.
Speaker 1: You know, it's gonna be Well, what's the likelihood of
Speaker 1: that happening? That's pretty unrealistic, right. Or if I say,
Speaker 1: you know, it's never going to change, it's always going
Speaker 1: to be the same, and I'm gonna you know, continue
Speaker 1: to argue and it's going to be a problem, then
Speaker 1: that's pretty discouraging. But if I say I'm going to
Speaker 1: approach my partner and we're going to have a discussion
Speaker 1: about how we're going to deal with the kids around
Speaker 1: screen time, then that's a much more realistic way to
Speaker 1: approach a conversation about how are we going to raise
Speaker 1: the kids or how are we going to deal with
Speaker 1: the extended family? Right, So, I think it's mostly in
Speaker 1: those circumstances where you're interacting with someone else and it's
Speaker 1: about your expectations. I think it's really really important to
Speaker 1: try to talk about one's own expectations in a relationship
Speaker 1: or in a family, or in a work situation or
Speaker 1: with a friend, and what their expectations are of you,
Speaker 1: so that you both are able to really understand and
Speaker 1: articulate what each person is looking for in one another
Speaker 1: and what the best possible outcome or more realists, most
Speaker 1: realistic outcome of the issue where the problem can be
Speaker 1: so u it helps in terms of preparing what what
Speaker 1: if you get a you know, a bad reaction from
Speaker 1: someone if you haven't talked to them for a long
Speaker 1: long time and you pick up the phone and say hi,
Speaker 1: we haven't spoken. Well, are they going to say, oh,
Speaker 1: I never want to speak to you again, or are
Speaker 1: they going to say, oh, you know, I've missed you
Speaker 1: so much I really want to see you, or are
Speaker 1: they going to kind of be a little surprised that
Speaker 1: you're calling, but say, how are you doing. How are
Speaker 1: things going. We haven't spoken for a while, so you're prepared.
Speaker 1: We also help people prepare for the worst outcome if
Speaker 1: someone says that, or the best outcome or the most
Speaker 1: realistic one. That's where the those three kind of questions
Speaker 1: really are helpful and kind of preparing oneself for what
Speaker 1: you might expect when you do approach someone. Yeah, you
Speaker 1: mentioned the word expectations there, and you talked about how
Speaker 1: important it is to talk about what our expectations are
Speaker 1: in a relationship and then to hear what the other
Speaker 1: person's expectations are. You guys have a tool in the
Speaker 1: book called the matrix that helps you lay this out. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I love this this tool because it lets people
Speaker 1: examine what I expect of myself, what I expect of
Speaker 1: another person soon, right, and then it lets the other
Speaker 1: person examine what their expectations are of themselves in our
Speaker 1: relationship and what they expect of me as well. So
Speaker 1: it's a good way to talk to one another, and
Speaker 1: it provides a structure where people can talk without fighting,
Speaker 1: So you don't do it necessarily when you're in the
Speaker 1: midst of the argument, but afterwards you sit down and
Speaker 1: say i'd really like to address some things that are
Speaker 1: going on with us, whether it's and if it's a
Speaker 1: romantic relationship or or you know, marriage, or you basically
Speaker 1: might want to talk about finances. You may want to
Speaker 1: talk about extended family. You may want to examine issues
Speaker 1: about intimacy or sexual relationship. You may want to talk about,
Speaker 1: you know, children and what those expectations are. So by
Speaker 1: each person identifying with those topics what they expect of
Speaker 1: them selves, what they expect of the other person, you
Speaker 1: really have a vehicle. You have a tool where you
Speaker 1: sit down and you talk to each other and try
Speaker 1: to come up with the common a kind of a
Speaker 1: master matrix that you both agree on, and you deal
Speaker 1: with it one thing at a time. You don't deal
Speaker 1: with all of them. You pick one area, one topic,
Speaker 1: one issue, and you sit down and you discuss it
Speaker 1: with one another. You know, we help people identify how
Speaker 1: to do that, and then you come to an agreement,
Speaker 1: hopefully something that's you know, you both are comfortable with doing.
Speaker 1: Let's say it's you know, do we have Sunday night
Speaker 1: dinner with my family every week? You negotiate it, you
Speaker 1: have a discussion about it. How are we going to
Speaker 1: deal with our finances. How much money are we going
Speaker 1: to bring into the family. Those are the things that
Speaker 1: the matrix is. The matrix really helps people clarify what
Speaker 1: their expectation are of the relationship. People really find it
Speaker 1: extremely valuable to use the matrix. You also go on
Speaker 1: and you talk about the psychologist Albert Ellis about how
Speaker 1: he has linked expectations to happiness, and he said that
Speaker 1: seriously unhappy people often have three rigidly held expectations. Can
Speaker 1: you walk us through what those are? Well? I think
Speaker 1: certainly any time you do have rigid expectations, and it's
Speaker 1: not hard to have those in our society right where
Speaker 1: everything is put out there and it you know, all
Speaker 1: the wonderful pictures of what the proposal should be. So
Speaker 1: when when you see on TV or magazine's a you know,
Speaker 1: flowers strewn all over the room, and if if you're
Speaker 1: you know, the person who's proposing to you in real
Speaker 1: life doesn't do all of that, you can really feel
Speaker 1: pretty disappointed that your wonderful, you know, expectation of how
Speaker 1: that was going to work would would be problematic you. Um,
Speaker 1: I also think I can give an example of with um,
Speaker 1: you know, my husband who we were going to go
Speaker 1: on a road trip. Well, we had to go to
Speaker 1: a family function that was about five hours away, and
Speaker 1: I know that he tends to be pretty quiet in
Speaker 1: the car, so I said to him when we go, let's,
Speaker 1: you know, make sure you kind of engage. Let's engage
Speaker 1: in conversation or talk about things. And he said, well,
Speaker 1: you know that's not realistic to expect of me, because
Speaker 1: you know I don't talk a lot. He said, why
Speaker 1: don't you just take the plane with the kids and
Speaker 1: they'll be happy and I'll be happy and it'll all
Speaker 1: work out right. So you know, my ex we've we've
Speaker 1: been doing this for forty five years and we found
Speaker 1: a way to, you know, to make it work. So,
Speaker 1: you know, in terms of expectations, if you're rigid about them,
Speaker 1: if you still kind of feel mad or angry about
Speaker 1: the fact that you know, after so many years, the
Speaker 1: person is a wonderful, kind, loving, terrific guy, but he's
Speaker 1: really not going to talk as much as I want
Speaker 1: them to talk, you know, So you know, you you're
Speaker 1: you have to really adjust your expectations. And another thing
Speaker 1: that I think with expectations that's so valuable, and I'd
Speaker 1: love to know. Your opinion about this is, I don't
Speaker 1: think you can expect one person to meet all your
Speaker 1: needs all the time, in the way you want them
Speaker 1: and exactly in the time you want them to be met.
Speaker 1: So you can't put that pressure or that expectation on
Speaker 1: on one person in a relationship because it's really not
Speaker 1: going to work most of the time. I think you
Speaker 1: have to have your expectations met by different people, you know,
Speaker 1: in different your friends, or your family, or your you
Speaker 1: know that it's really, you know, to put that that
Speaker 1: pressure on one person, I think is unfair to yourself
Speaker 1: and them. I agree. I think I I certainly have
Speaker 1: needs to get met from lots of different people, and
Speaker 1: that does seem to be a unique thing about modern relationships,
Speaker 1: as we expect, you know, one person to meet what
Speaker 1: used to be met by a lot of different people.
Speaker 1: And I think if we change that, if we really
Speaker 1: become more um realistic about that, and we really look
Speaker 1: at the things that someone can do and can provide
Speaker 1: versus what they don't, I think we tend to feel
Speaker 1: a lot happier we and we look at the things
Speaker 1: that are the most important to us. And I think
Speaker 1: the matrix helps this um identify the values of what's
Speaker 1: important to us. So I've you know, I think I'm
Speaker 1: I'm thinking a lot these days about what that values
Speaker 1: are crucially important and and understanding the people that we
Speaker 1: relate to and do they share the same values as
Speaker 1: we do. Do they share the ideas of being honest,
Speaker 1: of being there for you, of being compared shouldn't, of
Speaker 1: being kind, about being enthusiastic and supportive to you and
Speaker 1: each other? So to me, those expectations are really crucial
Speaker 1: in my life and also how I want to treat
Speaker 1: other people. If I want to be respectful of someone,
Speaker 1: then I assume that they will be you know, I
Speaker 1: want them to be respectful of me as well. So
Speaker 1: if those values I think are very very important in
Speaker 1: building good relationships, I agree. Well, Cindy, we are at
Speaker 1: the end of our time here. You and I are
Speaker 1: going to talk for a few more minutes in the
Speaker 1: post show conversation about some suggested conversation starters and some
Speaker 1: to be avoided conversation enders. So we're going to get
Speaker 1: kind of specific on some actual ways to make conversation
Speaker 1: go better, and we'll do that in the post show conversation. Listeners,
Speaker 1: you can get access to this one and all of those,
Speaker 1: as well as a mini episode I do each week
Speaker 1: where I give a teaching, a song and a poem.
Speaker 1: All that is at One you Feed, dot Net Slash Support. Cindy,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for taking the time to come
Speaker 1: on and I've really enjoyed talking with you. Thank you
Speaker 1: very much for the opportunity. It's been a real pleasure.
Speaker 1: Okay bye. If what you just heard was helpful to you,
Speaker 1: please consider making a donation to the One You Feed podcast.
Speaker 1: Head over to One you Feed dot Net slash Support.
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