WEBVTT - A Field Guide to Wealth & Purpose in Your 20s w/ Jack Raines #1175 0:00:00.040 --> 0:00:03.160 Welcome to Had of Money. I'm Joel, and today we're 0:00:03.200 --> 0:00:06.560 talking about a field guide to Wealth and Purpose in 0:00:06.600 --> 0:00:28.600 your twenties with Jack Reins. So there's a lot packed 0:00:28.600 --> 0:00:31.040 into your twenties, Jack, Right, you're getting an education, formal 0:00:31.200 --> 0:00:35.720 or otherwise. You're figuring out what you believe about work, money, relationships, success, 0:00:35.760 --> 0:00:38.080 and who you want to become. And that process doesn't 0:00:38.120 --> 0:00:41.519 stop when you hit thirty. But your twenties are especially formative, 0:00:41.720 --> 0:00:44.400 and there's no shortage of advice aimed at young adults. 0:00:44.440 --> 0:00:44.559 Right. 0:00:44.560 --> 0:00:47.800 There's the commencement speeches, like some of them are tough 0:00:47.800 --> 0:00:51.560 to watch. There's the career gurus, there's the personal finance influencers. 0:00:51.640 --> 0:00:53.960 I don't know if I consider myself an influencer or not, 0:00:54.120 --> 0:00:57.240 but I guess maybe I am somehow. But a lot 0:00:57.280 --> 0:00:59.520 of the advice misses like the deeper question of what 0:00:59.600 --> 0:01:02.680 actually matters. And so in a world full of noise, 0:01:02.720 --> 0:01:06.039 it's just getting harder to separate wisdom from status signaling. 0:01:06.280 --> 0:01:08.399 That's why today I'm bringing Jack rains On. He's a 0:01:08.440 --> 0:01:11.479 young guy who young adult young man. 0:01:12.040 --> 0:01:13.600 I'm twenty nine, so I don't need to wear that. 0:01:13.880 --> 0:01:15.479 In New York, I get told that I'm a baby, 0:01:15.480 --> 0:01:17.640 and then Atlanta I get told that I'm totally washed, 0:01:17.680 --> 0:01:19.600 so like it's very geographic specific. 0:01:19.680 --> 0:01:22.080 And then how interesting how it happens. I was an 0:01:22.080 --> 0:01:25.720 intern at my first job, and they the nicknames I 0:01:25.760 --> 0:01:27.920 got like and I, and that stuck with me for 0:01:27.959 --> 0:01:29.840 a decade and a half of working there. I was like, 0:01:29.840 --> 0:01:33.959 they still think I'm the intern. I'm not. But dude, 0:01:34.080 --> 0:01:36.840 your new book is called Young Money. It's part memoir, 0:01:36.840 --> 0:01:40.160 part guidebook for the generation coming behind you. And I'm 0:01:40.200 --> 0:01:41.959 super excited to chat with you today, man, so thanks 0:01:42.000 --> 0:01:42.440 for joining me. 0:01:42.520 --> 0:01:44.480 Yeah, dude, I'm excited to dig in. All right. 0:01:44.520 --> 0:01:47.520 First question I ask everybody is what's your spoige? What's 0:01:47.520 --> 0:01:49.320 your craft beer equivalent? What are you spending money on. 0:01:49.360 --> 0:01:52.080 I know you're not being a complete idiot, and you know, 0:01:52.480 --> 0:01:55.120 frittering away all the money that comes in, you're saving 0:01:55.120 --> 0:01:57.240 something for your future, But what are you splurging on 0:01:57.280 --> 0:01:57.720 in particular? 0:01:57.760 --> 0:01:57.920 Right now? 0:01:58.000 --> 0:01:58.880 Let's bring in a lot of joy. 0:01:58.960 --> 0:02:02.600 So excluding the the thing I'm actually splurging the most 0:02:02.640 --> 0:02:05.120 on is rent in New York. That's not because that's 0:02:05.120 --> 0:02:06.840 not because I have a penthouse apartment. It's because I 0:02:06.880 --> 0:02:09.480 have a studio in the center of Manhattan. But since 0:02:09.520 --> 0:02:12.160 I now have no roommates and an elevator and a 0:02:12.200 --> 0:02:15.080 door guy, actually like my rent is like it's it's 0:02:15.080 --> 0:02:17.240 a little over four thousand dollars a month for a studio. 0:02:17.280 --> 0:02:18.520 We were talking about this earlier. 0:02:18.560 --> 0:02:23.080 It's like the New York rental market is insane excluding 0:02:23.400 --> 0:02:24.160 necessities I. 0:02:24.120 --> 0:02:24.760 Need to survive. 0:02:24.840 --> 0:02:26.920 If you see in the background, I like build a 0:02:26.960 --> 0:02:30.040 bookshelf in my apartment. So it used to be a 0:02:30.040 --> 0:02:33.359 big Kindle guy because it's like ebook. It's like it's 0:02:33.639 --> 0:02:35.400 it's just easier to take with you. It takes up 0:02:35.480 --> 0:02:38.399 less space whatever. I have gone full circle and I'm 0:02:38.480 --> 0:02:40.600 so in on physical books. 0:02:40.639 --> 0:02:42.840 I guess, having now written one, it's about to come out. 0:02:43.800 --> 0:02:45.960 I've bought like fifty or sixty books in the last 0:02:45.960 --> 0:02:47.959 two months, and I'm probably only going to read maybe 0:02:48.000 --> 0:02:49.639 a third of them. But I'm trying to fill out 0:02:49.639 --> 0:02:54.680 the bookshelf. It does yeah, yeah, So the it's one 0:02:54.760 --> 0:03:00.200 of those like intellectual status signaling. I have a bookshelf, 0:03:00.240 --> 0:03:03.560 but the most recent splurge has one hundred percent ben like, 0:03:03.639 --> 0:03:05.440 let's fill out the shelf with physical bucks. 0:03:05.560 --> 0:03:06.919 Ken Will just doesn't look that cool. 0:03:07.200 --> 0:03:09.120 If I'm like having a zoom call in front of 0:03:09.120 --> 0:03:10.880 my coffee table over there, I want. 0:03:10.720 --> 0:03:13.400 A ton of books in the background. Yeah, so physical books. 0:03:13.520 --> 0:03:16.519 I like it. Okay, physical books and Manhattan rent, which 0:03:16.560 --> 0:03:18.919 is not cheap, but it's it's a choice, right, and 0:03:18.960 --> 0:03:21.440 it's a quality of lifestyle choice. And so much of 0:03:21.600 --> 0:03:24.600 what you're writing about in your new book is kind 0:03:24.600 --> 0:03:27.400 of how you think about that trade off between finances 0:03:27.400 --> 0:03:30.840 and quality of life in your twenties. And there is 0:03:31.040 --> 0:03:34.080 I think some advice that people have given throughout the 0:03:34.120 --> 0:03:37.560 years that could lead to a twenties where you're being 0:03:37.600 --> 0:03:39.680 super frugal and you're investing a lot for your future, 0:03:40.400 --> 0:03:42.600 but you're not necessarily living life to the fullest in 0:03:42.640 --> 0:03:44.920 your twenties. And you kind of argue for a blend, 0:03:45.720 --> 0:03:48.800 but you're talking more about really like living your twenties up. 0:03:49.120 --> 0:03:51.000 One of the I think the first line in your book, 0:03:51.040 --> 0:03:54.080 you write, everyone, every person should blow up their life 0:03:54.320 --> 0:03:56.520 at least once, And I'm curious to hear what you 0:03:56.560 --> 0:03:58.640 mean by that, because i will say I've seen some 0:03:58.640 --> 0:04:01.920 people blow up their lives spectacularly and it wasn't pretty, 0:04:02.000 --> 0:04:03.720 and they probably should have thought twice about that. 0:04:03.800 --> 0:04:06.960 Yeah, so so I would like to add one one qualifier. 0:04:07.000 --> 0:04:08.800 It's every young person should blow up the right at 0:04:08.880 --> 0:04:12.080 least once. The like the kind of the you know, 0:04:12.120 --> 0:04:14.119 there's like there's part of the book is like there's 0:04:14.120 --> 0:04:16.719 some financial advice, career advice, whatever, But the kind of 0:04:16.839 --> 0:04:19.200 underlying ethos is I think young people should be a 0:04:19.240 --> 0:04:22.520 lot more risk on and that that includes everything from 0:04:22.520 --> 0:04:25.920 like career paths, relationships, just like how you make choices, 0:04:26.040 --> 0:04:28.640 because I think it's you know, I think when people 0:04:28.680 --> 0:04:32.040 graduate from college, there's a lot of uncertainty. You don't 0:04:32.080 --> 0:04:33.920 know anything, you're at the bottom of the totem poll, 0:04:34.200 --> 0:04:38.960 and it's it's very easy to it's almost pattern match 0:04:38.960 --> 0:04:42.120 off of like what you have seen working with like 0:04:42.160 --> 0:04:44.040 people older than you for what career. 0:04:43.760 --> 0:04:44.880 Path you should do whatever. 0:04:45.480 --> 0:04:51.080 And I think it's really easy to misconstrue uncertainty for 0:04:51.320 --> 0:04:53.279 risk and you're just like full of like you don't 0:04:53.279 --> 0:04:55.120 actually you don't know anything when you're twenty two coming 0:04:55.120 --> 0:04:56.320 out of college. 0:04:56.200 --> 0:04:58.560 But you think you know a lot correct. Correct. 0:04:58.839 --> 0:05:01.200 So when I say that every young person should blow 0:05:01.240 --> 0:05:03.200 up their life at least once, a big part of 0:05:03.240 --> 0:05:06.800 that is, like I think when you're young, like basically 0:05:06.839 --> 0:05:09.520 forcing yourself to have a pretty diverse experience set and 0:05:09.520 --> 0:05:10.240 getting out of your. 0:05:10.120 --> 0:05:11.320 Comfort zone is valuable. 0:05:11.360 --> 0:05:14.119 For one, like it just gives you more comparison points 0:05:14.120 --> 0:05:16.679 of like like things you could be doing with your life, 0:05:16.720 --> 0:05:18.680 so you're not just in an echo chamber of like 0:05:19.240 --> 0:05:20.880 people you went to school with what you did with 0:05:20.920 --> 0:05:23.800 your first career. And two it's I actually think it's 0:05:23.800 --> 0:05:27.680 a legitimate skill knowing how to lean into discomfort and 0:05:27.839 --> 0:05:29.320 learn from it and come out on the other side 0:05:29.360 --> 0:05:33.320 of its stronger. So like it just makes you I 0:05:33.360 --> 0:05:36.599 think it makes you like anti fragile if you've gone 0:05:36.640 --> 0:05:39.640 through early in life, like just kind of throwing calls 0:05:39.680 --> 0:05:41.480 in the wind and doing something different. And to your 0:05:41.480 --> 0:05:43.719 point on people have blown up their lives and they 0:05:43.760 --> 0:05:47.800 probably shouldn't have the actual risk of, like I say, 0:05:47.839 --> 0:05:50.360 blowing up your life. I don't mean like developing like 0:05:50.520 --> 0:05:52.960 a like a crippling drug addiction or going deep into 0:05:53.000 --> 0:05:56.640 credit card debt, but like just kind of doing something 0:05:56.680 --> 0:05:58.000 totally different at twenty four. 0:05:58.520 --> 0:06:01.680 You just have time to recover. Nobody's gonna hold that. 0:06:01.600 --> 0:06:04.040 Against you when you're like twenty six that you took 0:06:04.080 --> 0:06:07.159 the random startup job instead of the steadier path of 0:06:07.200 --> 0:06:08.159 the consulting firm or. 0:06:08.160 --> 0:06:09.360 YadA, YadA, YadA. 0:06:09.920 --> 0:06:12.200 Again's much harder to do that when you're thirty five 0:06:12.240 --> 0:06:15.120 than when you're twenty five. So the whole takeaway is, like, 0:06:15.760 --> 0:06:19.120 I don't think people time weight life decisions as much 0:06:19.160 --> 0:06:21.560 as they should, and like you can take bigger shots 0:06:21.600 --> 0:06:24.320 with like lower risk of loss in your twenties than 0:06:24.360 --> 0:06:26.880 you can later. Therefore, if you have those shots you 0:06:26.920 --> 0:06:28.560 want to take, you should totally do them when you're 0:06:28.600 --> 0:06:30.760 young to your point, so you don't blow up your 0:06:30.800 --> 0:06:33.360 life at like thirty five and end up divorced or 0:06:33.400 --> 0:06:36.880 unemployed or whatever that looks like for that person. 0:06:37.040 --> 0:06:42.320 I quit my first job after six months and to 0:06:42.360 --> 0:06:44.200 take a road trip around the country for three months. 0:06:44.400 --> 0:06:45.640 And it was like one of the best things I've 0:06:45.680 --> 0:06:48.359 ever done. And it didn't cost me very much money. 0:06:48.760 --> 0:06:50.920 I'd saved up a few thousand dollars and that was 0:06:51.040 --> 0:06:53.159 enough to kind of get me around the United States 0:06:53.400 --> 0:06:56.800 with like a giant Costco bag of rice and one 0:06:56.800 --> 0:07:00.880 of those camp stoves. And so yeah, did I eat well? No, like, 0:07:01.240 --> 0:07:02.960 but I did I see the whole country? I did, 0:07:03.320 --> 0:07:05.880 and it was interesting. Like a week or two after 0:07:05.920 --> 0:07:08.239 I left a lot of people where I was working, 0:07:08.279 --> 0:07:10.160 got let go anyway, and I was like, gosh, this 0:07:10.240 --> 0:07:12.320 just feels like confirmation that I made that I made 0:07:12.360 --> 0:07:14.160 the right move. But I'm curious to hear from you. 0:07:14.400 --> 0:07:17.360 What's the difference between like you only live once sort 0:07:17.400 --> 0:07:20.520 of mentality and the mistake you can make there or 0:07:20.560 --> 0:07:23.520 making what seems like an extreme but an intentional pivot. 0:07:23.800 --> 0:07:25.960 What you don't want to do is be impulsive, right, Like, 0:07:26.000 --> 0:07:28.600 I think there's a level of intentionality you need to have. 0:07:28.800 --> 0:07:31.160 Like my example of this, you did a road trip 0:07:31.160 --> 0:07:33.640 around the country. I bought one way take it to Barcelona. 0:07:33.800 --> 0:07:36.600 I've been working for a year and a half, but 0:07:36.640 --> 0:07:38.280 I was twenty four. I'd saved up a little bit 0:07:38.320 --> 0:07:39.800 of money, and I was like, I think it would 0:07:39.800 --> 0:07:41.760 be very cool to go see like a lot of 0:07:41.760 --> 0:07:44.800 the world that I haven't seen before. But the risk 0:07:44.840 --> 0:07:46.120 you run with that is, like you don't want to 0:07:46.120 --> 0:07:48.360 be the guy who spends like five years vagabonding and 0:07:48.400 --> 0:07:50.480 like never gets his stuff together and then he's just 0:07:50.560 --> 0:07:53.400 like thirty and it's kind of just been a nomad. 0:07:53.720 --> 0:07:55.400 Some people do want to do that, that's fine if 0:07:55.440 --> 0:07:57.320 you do, but like, I don't think that's for most people. 0:07:58.160 --> 0:08:00.080 For me, I had gotten in a business school. I 0:08:00.120 --> 0:08:01.440 knew I was going to go to grad school the 0:08:01.440 --> 0:08:03.280 following year, and it was like, Okay, I've kind of 0:08:03.320 --> 0:08:06.760 gotten this this finite window of like a d risk 0:08:06.920 --> 0:08:10.280 year at twenty four where my two options are kind 0:08:10.320 --> 0:08:13.640 of do another year in corporate finance, which is fine 0:08:13.760 --> 0:08:17.720 but not really that intellectually stimulating, or go have a 0:08:17.720 --> 0:08:20.960 lot of fun doing like crazy adventures knowing I'm going 0:08:21.040 --> 0:08:23.960 to business school and realistically like my career opportunities are 0:08:23.960 --> 0:08:26.160 going to be downstream of what I choose to do 0:08:26.280 --> 0:08:29.280 during and after graduate school. And that was the right move, 0:08:29.280 --> 0:08:33.040 but it was like there was a like finite window 0:08:33.040 --> 0:08:35.240 where I could do that and had to defind endpoint 0:08:35.280 --> 0:08:37.560 where it's like, Okay, you want to go take this shot, 0:08:37.960 --> 0:08:40.680 do it. And I've heard people say similar things about 0:08:41.360 --> 0:08:44.560 they have like a very like well off job and 0:08:44.600 --> 0:08:47.120 making five hundred thousand dollars more and they want to 0:08:47.160 --> 0:08:47.680 go join. 0:08:47.559 --> 0:08:49.200 A startup or try something new or whatever. 0:08:49.440 --> 0:08:51.480 If they have ample savings and they want to do that, 0:08:51.640 --> 0:08:55.079 it's go take that shot. For a budget out, are 0:08:55.080 --> 0:08:57.400 you willing to like take that pay cut or cut 0:08:57.559 --> 0:09:00.200 your savings for one year, two years, try the thing, and. 0:09:00.240 --> 0:09:03.400 If it doesn't work, like go back and do something else. 0:09:03.440 --> 0:09:05.280 But I just I think if you do the planning 0:09:05.360 --> 0:09:07.560 up front for this is the thing I want to do, 0:09:07.600 --> 0:09:09.760 and this is the window of opportunity to do it, 0:09:09.760 --> 0:09:11.959 it's totally fine. What you don't want to do is 0:09:12.040 --> 0:09:16.240 like fall into doing something that sounds fun and as 0:09:16.280 --> 0:09:18.040 impulsive and then two muth said, and you're like, this 0:09:18.160 --> 0:09:20.520 was a total mistake that I shouldn't have done. It's 0:09:20.640 --> 0:09:24.120 just having a level of intentionality that goes into the 0:09:24.160 --> 0:09:25.439 decision making that matters. 0:09:25.840 --> 0:09:27.559 I think what you're getting at two a little bit 0:09:27.600 --> 0:09:29.880 is that, like the stakes are just lower. Right when 0:09:30.720 --> 0:09:34.920 I've got three kids and I can't I guess I 0:09:34.920 --> 0:09:36.360 could quite my job and take them on a road 0:09:36.360 --> 0:09:38.120 trip around the country, But that's just different. Right then, 0:09:38.120 --> 0:09:39.880 I'm like talking about pulling them out of school, and 0:09:39.880 --> 0:09:42.200 I mean, there's like a million different logistics, but when 0:09:42.240 --> 0:09:46.319 you're in your early to mid twenties, there are very 0:09:46.320 --> 0:09:49.439 few logistics. And it's so it's kind of like, Okay, man, 0:09:49.480 --> 0:09:52.080 I could even like a get a part time job 0:09:52.120 --> 0:09:53.599 at a waffle house in a random town if I 0:09:53.679 --> 0:09:56.440 need it to like those. That's the kind of gumption 0:09:56.679 --> 0:09:57.679 you can exhibit. 0:09:57.679 --> 0:09:59.800 It's funny you mentioned that because my dad little when 0:09:59.840 --> 0:10:02.160 I i'd like, taught him about this whole I want 0:10:02.160 --> 0:10:03.520 to go to Europe and do this and do that. 0:10:03.679 --> 0:10:07.320 He was like his his line was he wanted to 0:10:07.320 --> 0:10:10.440 do a road trip around America like right after law school, 0:10:10.520 --> 0:10:12.800 either after underground after law school, but then didn't do 0:10:12.840 --> 0:10:16.000 it logistics, whatever life happened. Wish you would have done that. 0:10:16.280 --> 0:10:18.240 What he told me was like, you can go do 0:10:18.280 --> 0:10:20.960 whatever you want. He's like, I'm not gonna pay for it, though, 0:10:21.120 --> 0:10:23.240 and if you run out of money, you do, like 0:10:23.440 --> 0:10:24.920 you're gonna have to go work at like a waffle 0:10:24.960 --> 0:10:26.360 house or come work on the we have we have 0:10:26.400 --> 0:10:27.600 a farm, bat come come work. 0:10:27.440 --> 0:10:28.240 On the farm. Whatever. 0:10:28.559 --> 0:10:30.080 So that was in the back of my head, like 0:10:30.120 --> 0:10:32.560 I could always go be a waffle house cook. 0:10:32.360 --> 0:10:34.640 For just don't be a freeloader. It's basically what you're saying, 0:10:34.720 --> 0:10:36.679 like don't do it, but like don't don't expept me 0:10:36.720 --> 0:10:39.880 to like, uh, you know, Western Union need some money. 0:10:40.120 --> 0:10:40.280 Right. 0:10:40.640 --> 0:10:42.199 One of the things to you you highlighted in the 0:10:42.200 --> 0:10:44.120 book you found like you were wasting time in your 0:10:44.120 --> 0:10:47.080 early career, is what you called it. How does someone 0:10:47.120 --> 0:10:48.959 know if they're if they're like putting in they got 0:10:48.960 --> 0:10:51.080 this job, they're putting in grunt work to eventually achieve 0:10:51.160 --> 0:10:54.480 something greater, versus what you kind of seem to allude 0:10:54.520 --> 0:10:57.439 to as being this like perpetual meaningless toil. 0:10:57.960 --> 0:10:58.360 I don't know. 0:10:58.440 --> 0:11:00.680 I think when you're like very early your career, there's 0:11:00.720 --> 0:11:03.480 there's obviously like every single job has grunt work. 0:11:03.520 --> 0:11:05.920 And I think one of the one of the. 0:11:05.360 --> 0:11:09.280 Bigger disservices that like social media hustle culture has like 0:11:09.320 --> 0:11:13.079 told young people is that you should be passionate about 0:11:13.080 --> 0:11:16.120 your work and like that you can just give this 0:11:16.360 --> 0:11:18.599 completely misguided perception of I should be in love with 0:11:18.640 --> 0:11:20.559 every minute of what I do, and like every. 0:11:20.400 --> 0:11:22.760 Job has a level of just mundane iss to it 0:11:22.760 --> 0:11:23.880 that you can't avoid. 0:11:23.920 --> 0:11:26.680 Even the jobs you love, right, And I can attest 0:11:26.720 --> 0:11:28.640 to that. There's I love my job, and there are 0:11:28.720 --> 0:11:30.760 days where I'm like, I don't really want to go in. Hey, 0:11:30.880 --> 0:11:32.480 I want to talk to Jack today, but maybe I 0:11:32.480 --> 0:11:33.880 don't want to talk to that other guy next week, 0:11:33.920 --> 0:11:34.400 you know, I. 0:11:34.320 --> 0:11:36.520 Mean, the the amount of is like admin work involved 0:11:36.520 --> 0:11:38.120 in any job just like sucks. 0:11:38.160 --> 0:11:39.840 There's no way around it doesn't matter what you do. 0:11:40.040 --> 0:11:42.720 That's a thing. The thing for me was. 0:11:42.640 --> 0:11:45.600 Like my again, like part of my issue was my 0:11:45.640 --> 0:11:48.040 first job is during COVID, which just sucked because it 0:11:48.120 --> 0:11:51.440 was like, look, I was not passionate about like corporate 0:11:51.480 --> 0:11:52.520 Finance FP and A. 0:11:53.400 --> 0:11:54.800 I did like the team I worked with a. 0:11:54.720 --> 0:11:57.000 Lot, but then when you're doing that remote over zoom, 0:11:57.160 --> 0:11:59.400 you just like that was a big part of the 0:11:59.400 --> 0:12:02.080 problem was being in the cycle like zoom calls this 0:12:02.160 --> 0:12:04.200 and that you're never seeing anybody. You don't really know 0:12:04.200 --> 0:12:06.080 if you're learning that much because you're just not in 0:12:06.120 --> 0:12:09.120 the mix of people. Like that's not a great feeling. 0:12:10.200 --> 0:12:12.920 But a big part of it was like that wasn't 0:12:13.000 --> 0:12:15.120 the world that I wanted to stay in. And I'd 0:12:15.120 --> 0:12:17.400 also gotten in a graduate school with a plan that 0:12:17.480 --> 0:12:19.280 I was going to like pivot and. 0:12:19.320 --> 0:12:22.120 Do something else after. So the trade for me was either. 0:12:21.960 --> 0:12:26.000 A keep doing this job for another year, that's not 0:12:26.040 --> 0:12:27.960 the thing I'm gonna want to do after grad school, 0:12:28.440 --> 0:12:31.920 or b both go have a lot of fun abroad, 0:12:32.040 --> 0:12:35.360 which was like objectively the right choice, but also like 0:12:35.640 --> 0:12:37.679 by quitting my job, I had a lot more bandwidth 0:12:37.760 --> 0:12:39.720 to pursue a bunch of other like side interest, Like 0:12:40.080 --> 0:12:42.320 I started writing a newsletter, I started working for a 0:12:42.360 --> 0:12:44.360 media startup, like I did a lot of different stuff 0:12:44.440 --> 0:12:47.720 during that period where it was if the thing I 0:12:47.760 --> 0:12:49.720 was doing wasn't what I want to do long term, 0:12:49.760 --> 0:12:51.720 and it also wasn't the thing that led to the 0:12:51.720 --> 0:12:54.240 thing I want to do long term, the correct move 0:12:54.440 --> 0:12:57.280 was just drop it and give myself the like mental 0:12:57.280 --> 0:13:00.960 and physical bandwidth to just like lore a lot of stuff. 0:13:01.520 --> 0:13:04.800 And I think that, like, again, that's a much easier 0:13:04.800 --> 0:13:07.320 thing to do at twenty four than at like thirty two. 0:13:07.800 --> 0:13:10.679 Well, it sounds like you were experimenting, yes, and you're like, 0:13:10.760 --> 0:13:12.280 let me try this thing and see if I like it. 0:13:12.320 --> 0:13:14.240 And hey, actually, it turns out if I stick with 0:13:14.280 --> 0:13:17.560 this writing thing for a while, people are responding to it. 0:13:17.600 --> 0:13:20.120 I'm growing like maybe this is a part time maybe 0:13:20.120 --> 0:13:21.880 it becomes a full time thing. Maybe I write a book. 0:13:21.920 --> 0:13:24.520 And if you hadn't like stuck with those things and experimented, 0:13:24.800 --> 0:13:27.120 you wouldn't have figured that out. And then talk to 0:13:27.160 --> 0:13:30.440 me too about one just trying things out, but like 0:13:30.840 --> 0:13:33.040 the relationships, what you learn about yourself and then the 0:13:33.080 --> 0:13:34.920 relationships you built while you were experimenting. 0:13:35.280 --> 0:13:39.199 Yeah, I mean it's funny, Like I'd always liked writing 0:13:39.440 --> 0:13:41.800 growing up. When I was an undergrad, we had a 0:13:42.360 --> 0:13:43.640 I went to Mercery University. 0:13:43.720 --> 0:13:44.840 We were the Mercer Bears. 0:13:44.920 --> 0:13:47.800 We had like a finance and economics newsletter called the 0:13:47.840 --> 0:13:50.560 Bear Market. I wrote for that, like it was. This 0:13:50.640 --> 0:13:53.720 has always been a thing that I enjoyed. But when 0:13:54.400 --> 0:13:57.000 like I fly to Barcelona, I start writing a substack 0:13:57.080 --> 0:13:59.240 and I cover two things I'm writing about. 0:13:59.280 --> 0:14:01.880 I've always thought, like investing in financial markets are interesting. 0:14:01.920 --> 0:14:04.440 So I'm writing a like finance blog and I'm writing 0:14:04.480 --> 0:14:07.560 a travel blog twice a week, just like detailing all 0:14:07.600 --> 0:14:09.520 the dumb stuff I'm doing abroad, Who I. 0:14:09.520 --> 0:14:10.680 Met, who I went out with. 0:14:11.080 --> 0:14:12.920 My grandma thought I was going out way too much. 0:14:12.960 --> 0:14:15.319 She was probably right, but I was twenty four in Europe, 0:14:15.360 --> 0:14:18.679 so I didn't care. But the things that stuck out 0:14:18.679 --> 0:14:22.200 were one like how much fun I was having just 0:14:22.240 --> 0:14:25.640 like turning thoughts into stories basically, and then two like 0:14:25.760 --> 0:14:28.480 how you just never really know where there's like long 0:14:28.480 --> 0:14:30.240 tail connections are gonna come from from the internet. 0:14:30.320 --> 0:14:31.320 Who's reading your stuff? 0:14:31.360 --> 0:14:34.200 And I just met a lot of super interesting people 0:14:34.400 --> 0:14:37.560 downstream with my newsletter, and those connections continue to compound 0:14:37.560 --> 0:14:40.600 over time. It just gave me like firsthand exposure to 0:14:40.800 --> 0:14:44.120 how valuable like distribution is the connectivity of the Internet, 0:14:44.200 --> 0:14:45.880 and a lot of people like resonated with what I 0:14:45.920 --> 0:14:49.320 was saying, and I was like, okay, like all these 0:14:49.400 --> 0:14:53.160 human like all of my experiences and thoughts and like 0:14:53.800 --> 0:14:56.120 just all the musings I was putting on the Internet 0:14:56.400 --> 0:14:58.240 resonated with a lot of people, and it's like a 0:14:58.240 --> 0:15:00.240 lot of what I'm thinking about at the state in 0:15:00.280 --> 0:15:05.160 life is these are kind of universal human experiences and 0:15:05.240 --> 0:15:07.560 that like actually led to the book deal a few 0:15:07.640 --> 0:15:10.120 years later, but that was a big thing. And then 0:15:10.160 --> 0:15:12.480 also it was just like it was pretty refreshing to 0:15:12.480 --> 0:15:15.280 get out of my bubble both physically, like in other countries. 0:15:15.320 --> 0:15:17.200 I met a lot of people from like all. 0:15:17.120 --> 0:15:19.240 Over the US and all over the world where you're 0:15:19.280 --> 0:15:21.000 like sharing a buck bed in the hospital and this 0:15:21.040 --> 0:15:23.520 guy's from Berlin and now like we still chat. 0:15:23.320 --> 0:15:27.400 Once a month, but even like online. 0:15:26.880 --> 0:15:31.600 Through the newsletter, Twitter LinkedIn all this, like I just 0:15:31.640 --> 0:15:33.960 started chatting with a lot of people doing all sorts 0:15:34.000 --> 0:15:37.440 of random wacky stuff tech world, investing, world media, and 0:15:37.480 --> 0:15:40.680 It was just like, because for that year I wasn't 0:15:40.680 --> 0:15:43.040 on a normal work schedule in my office, I had 0:15:43.080 --> 0:15:45.600 way more time to just engage with different people doing stuff, 0:15:45.640 --> 0:15:48.840 and those relationships have compounded over time. We can get 0:15:48.880 --> 0:15:50.240 into this in a little bit, like I work for 0:15:50.240 --> 0:15:51.200 a venture capital fund. 0:15:51.280 --> 0:15:53.360 Now. Our whole game is. 0:15:53.360 --> 0:15:56.560 Like you try to find interesting people building interesting companies 0:15:56.600 --> 0:15:59.440 and give them money. Most of my network, which is 0:15:59.520 --> 0:16:02.160 very value well in this industry, is downstream of I've 0:16:02.160 --> 0:16:04.240 been writing a newsletter and yapping on the internet for 0:16:04.280 --> 0:16:08.480 a while, so there's been like so many compounding downstream 0:16:08.520 --> 0:16:10.840 effects that I just didn't see coming initially, and it's 0:16:10.880 --> 0:16:14.200 all because I had a year to explore. 0:16:14.680 --> 0:16:18.880 Yeah, I really want to dial in on kind of 0:16:18.920 --> 0:16:23.240 some of the advice you give around optimizing for money, 0:16:23.360 --> 0:16:26.080 like in your twenties and you say, you say, and 0:16:26.200 --> 0:16:28.440 I agree with this, that the worst mistake twenty somethings 0:16:28.680 --> 0:16:30.640 can make is to spend their first the first decade 0:16:30.640 --> 0:16:32.040 of adulthood optimizing for money. 0:16:32.120 --> 0:16:32.280 Yeah. 0:16:32.280 --> 0:16:35.400 I think there's a lot of wisdom there and and 0:16:35.560 --> 0:16:37.560 just a lot like there's a lot of pressure, I 0:16:37.560 --> 0:16:40.760 think on young people to get started and like you've 0:16:40.760 --> 0:16:43.520 heard about compounding returns being the eighth wonder of the world. 0:16:43.560 --> 0:16:45.800 And you're like, man, I should have started when I 0:16:45.840 --> 0:16:48.000 was twelve. What what am I up to? Like I'm 0:16:48.280 --> 0:16:51.280 already behind the eight ball on this one. But also, 0:16:51.360 --> 0:16:54.600 like not thinking about money is not a great approach either, 0:16:54.680 --> 0:16:56.680 So how do you think about kind of splitting splitt 0:16:56.680 --> 0:16:57.120 in that baby? 0:16:57.240 --> 0:16:59.320 It's it's easy to fall on like the two extreme 0:16:59.360 --> 0:17:01.760 camps of like you should optimize for saving every dollar 0:17:01.800 --> 0:17:04.040 because everybody seemed the chart of like if you invest 0:17:04.040 --> 0:17:06.520 ten thousand dollars at age twenty two, then by retirement 0:17:06.560 --> 0:17:09.480 it'll be worth like, however many hundreds of thousands, assuming 0:17:09.560 --> 0:17:12.520 like an eight or nine percent compounding return. Cool, Like 0:17:13.160 --> 0:17:15.760 everybody knows that, and I also know that, Like a 0:17:15.760 --> 0:17:18.159 lot of people have trouble actually like following that and 0:17:18.200 --> 0:17:22.239 putting any money back for retirement. My perspective on this is, like, 0:17:22.840 --> 0:17:26.200 career slope is so much more important than savings rate 0:17:26.240 --> 0:17:29.040