WEBVTT - How You Can Help At The Border 0:00:06.160 --> 0:00:09.959 Welcome to It could happen here, the podcast that's happening 0:00:10.000 --> 0:00:14.440 here right now, in your ears, it could happen ere. 0:00:14.720 --> 0:00:17.480 I'm Robert Evans. Um, I'm I'm not with any of 0:00:17.480 --> 0:00:22.680 my normal UH co hosts today because because fuck them, No, 0:00:22.920 --> 0:00:26.080 because I'm elsewhere in the world right now, hanging out 0:00:26.120 --> 0:00:28.080 with someone you might remember from a special episode we 0:00:28.120 --> 0:00:33.320 recently did on Molotov Cocktails. Journalist James Stout. Hi, everyone, Yeah, 0:00:33.360 --> 0:00:36.320 I'm here with Robert in a tiny hotel room and 0:00:36.360 --> 0:00:39.720 we've just woken up. We need to do some podcasting. Yeah, 0:00:39.760 --> 0:00:42.120 we're not. We're not here for any specific purpose. We 0:00:42.159 --> 0:00:44.680 just decided let's run a hotel room, cast some pods, 0:00:44.800 --> 0:00:48.480 you know, hang out. Um, James, how do you feel 0:00:48.479 --> 0:00:53.440 about the border? Negatively? Broadly speaking, I think the border 0:00:53.560 --> 0:00:56.120 is a tool that we used to harm and kill 0:00:56.200 --> 0:00:59.240 the most marginalized people in the world. I think that's 0:00:59.280 --> 0:01:00.960 kind of borne out by stats as well. Not a 0:01:00.960 --> 0:01:03.520 big not a big border guy. Yeah, and you and 0:01:03.560 --> 0:01:06.680 I recently spent a decent amount of time on the 0:01:06.760 --> 0:01:10.840 Texas Mexico chunk of the border, specifically near McAllen, Texas, 0:01:11.319 --> 0:01:14.200 hanging out at a Butterfly sanctuary that people can learn 0:01:14.200 --> 0:01:15.959 some things about if they google will be coming out 0:01:16.000 --> 0:01:17.840 that those episodes will be dropping in the not too 0:01:17.880 --> 0:01:21.080 distant future. Um. But you live on the San Diego 0:01:21.440 --> 0:01:24.480 side of the border, um, which if people don't know, 0:01:24.560 --> 0:01:28.720 San Diego, California is basically in Mexico. Um, you can 0:01:28.800 --> 0:01:31.200 you can hop over across for like lunch and stuff 0:01:31.200 --> 0:01:34.640 if you really want to and don't mind dealing with CBP. UM. 0:01:34.840 --> 0:01:37.000 And Yeah, so I you've done a lot of reporting 0:01:37.160 --> 0:01:40.039 around the border and about kind of the system of 0:01:40.080 --> 0:01:42.760 violence that it represents. Um, I wanted to chat a 0:01:42.840 --> 0:01:44.880 little bit like about that, and I wanted to chat 0:01:44.880 --> 0:01:48.040 about some of the organizations that you've run into that 0:01:48.080 --> 0:01:50.000 are doing good work out there, because there's a lot 0:01:50.040 --> 0:01:53.520 that needs to be done. Yeah, definitely, I think, Um, 0:01:53.560 --> 0:01:56.000 I think it's really important to like conceptualize what's happening 0:01:56.040 --> 0:01:58.840 at the border in terms of, like the border is 0:01:58.880 --> 0:02:01.440 a tool for state vine right to state violence against 0:02:01.440 --> 0:02:04.720 marginalized people, and like what the good group groups helping 0:02:04.760 --> 0:02:07.080 people on the boarder represent is like ways of us 0:02:07.080 --> 0:02:09.720 helping each other which are outside the networks of us 0:02:09.760 --> 0:02:12.639 having power over each other. Right, So in the broader 0:02:12.680 --> 0:02:15.520 spectrum of like neutral aid of mutual support, Like I 0:02:15.520 --> 0:02:18.200 think they're really important to focus on rather than kind 0:02:18.240 --> 0:02:21.000 of so many people construct the border in their minds. 0:02:21.040 --> 0:02:23.120 Like you can see if you go back on my Twitter, 0:02:23.280 --> 0:02:25.160 some guy just being like that is not the border. 0:02:25.240 --> 0:02:27.000 The border does not look like that. The border is 0:02:27.120 --> 0:02:29.240 barren and it's desert and it's full of people with 0:02:29.280 --> 0:02:32.120 guns and it's really not right. Like, so the border 0:02:32.160 --> 0:02:34.560 exists as like this mental construct a place where we 0:02:34.560 --> 0:02:37.600 can do like political theater, especially on the right. So 0:02:37.639 --> 0:02:39.240 people who are actually down there on the ground and 0:02:39.320 --> 0:02:43.000 understand it, I think it's it's vital to support them. Yeah. 0:02:43.040 --> 0:02:45.080 One of the more striking moments to me when we 0:02:45.080 --> 0:02:48.240 were in McAllen was hanging out near this trunk of 0:02:48.280 --> 0:02:53.480 border fence that had been constructed unlike by volunteers effectively. Um, 0:02:53.560 --> 0:02:55.720 and it's this, it's it's it's what you would expect, 0:02:55.840 --> 0:02:59.239 like the stereotype of the border. It's this huge, military 0:02:59.320 --> 0:03:03.640 industrial looking thing. The wildlife has been cleared from around 0:03:03.720 --> 0:03:06.040 it so that you can have this towering steel edifice. 0:03:06.440 --> 0:03:11.000 But then a hundred yards away across the rio is 0:03:11.040 --> 0:03:13.320 the Mexican side of the border, and there's like a 0:03:13.320 --> 0:03:16.400 couple of goat farms and like a little restaurant with 0:03:16.600 --> 0:03:18.760 a little dock so people can like you know, take 0:03:18.800 --> 0:03:21.200 their little boats out and people are drinking and there's 0:03:21.240 --> 0:03:24.560 party music playing, and like it's it's nice, it's pastoral 0:03:24.680 --> 0:03:26.680 and green. It was. It looked like a lovely place. 0:03:26.680 --> 0:03:28.639 It looked much nicer than hanging out by the giant 0:03:28.680 --> 0:03:31.760 steel tower. Yeah, I found that all along the border actually, 0:03:31.800 --> 0:03:34.080 like we are side of the border looks like something 0:03:34.160 --> 0:03:36.960 from a blade Runner or something like it's this giant 0:03:37.080 --> 0:03:41.640 dystopian steel construct with with people with guns, with watch towers, 0:03:41.720 --> 0:03:44.600 and it's horrific, right, Like it cuts through some of 0:03:44.640 --> 0:03:48.160 the most beautiful and important landscapes we have, right through 0:03:48.160 --> 0:03:52.640 the high desert, through these very fragile places, and like 0:03:52.880 --> 0:03:54.680 it's important. I think people understand as well what the 0:03:54.720 --> 0:03:57.040 border wall looks like, right because you've probably seen a 0:03:57.040 --> 0:04:00.560 photograph of giant ass wall um and that is part 0:04:00.560 --> 0:04:02.640 of it. But they call it the border wall ecosystem. 0:04:02.680 --> 0:04:06.960 And what that involves is the wall itself, sometimes a ditch, 0:04:07.080 --> 0:04:10.680 sometimes not a ditch, and then a road that's wide 0:04:10.760 --> 0:04:13.839 enough for two of the f one fifty raptors, water 0:04:13.880 --> 0:04:17.800 patrol like to drive to pass each other and then 0:04:17.680 --> 0:04:20.159 access road to that and then genermanly there's also an 0:04:20.200 --> 0:04:23.000 access road cut that allows construction vehicles to get to 0:04:23.040 --> 0:04:26.000 build all of that. So it's not just some spikes 0:04:26.000 --> 0:04:29.680 in the desert. It's fucking destroying this beautiful part of 0:04:30.320 --> 0:04:33.560 both of Mexico and the United States. Right now, before 0:04:33.600 --> 0:04:37.440 we get into some of these organizations, I'm wondering, first off, 0:04:37.440 --> 0:04:40.440 when did you start reporting on the US Mexico border 0:04:40.920 --> 0:04:44.040 And is there any kind of specific events that that 0:04:44.080 --> 0:04:47.160 you can recall that really kind of ignited your your 0:04:47.200 --> 0:04:51.840 interest in this particular like part of the United States, 0:04:51.880 --> 0:04:57.080 in this particular part of like our ongoing social conflict. Yeah. 0:04:57.080 --> 0:05:00.760 Like I've always been interested in borderlands, like academically, uh 0:05:00.800 --> 0:05:04.080 and as part of my PhD UM. But I guess 0:05:04.080 --> 0:05:06.960 i'd probably about eight or nine years i've been reporting 0:05:07.000 --> 0:05:11.280 on the border. The thing that really sort of took 0:05:11.320 --> 0:05:13.680 it from being like the border is sometimes I think 0:05:13.680 --> 0:05:15.200 I write about I did a lot of outdoor writing 0:05:15.240 --> 0:05:16.840 about the border to right. It was very interesting in 0:05:16.839 --> 0:05:19.400 getting more people to go outside in bak California. It's 0:05:19.440 --> 0:05:23.920 amazing and you should do it. But what really sort 0:05:23.960 --> 0:05:25.839 of I guess made me be the Gulf funk. This 0:05:25.880 --> 0:05:30.800 is fucking horrible. U is quote unquote migrant caravan. Right. 0:05:31.480 --> 0:05:35.800 So I've been down just just enjoying a weekend in 0:05:36.560 --> 0:05:39.279 fettle further south and a little further south of Tijuana 0:05:39.400 --> 0:05:41.720 and having a really good wine country there. So we've 0:05:41.720 --> 0:05:45.960 been checking out these wine places and just enjoying ourselves. 0:05:47.240 --> 0:05:49.520 And we come back and then these people are in 0:05:50.040 --> 0:05:54.200 um what's called the Benito Kuaida's Sports Complex. It's just 0:05:54.240 --> 0:05:57.560 a baseball field, and it's raining and it's November, and 0:05:57.640 --> 0:06:00.280 it looks like a fucking battle of the saw him 0:06:00.320 --> 0:06:02.760 in there. You know, it's mud. They're little children, and 0:06:02.920 --> 0:06:05.839 I've been in these situations before, if I've seen situations 0:06:05.839 --> 0:06:09.920 with displaced people before, but there was something that just 0:06:10.040 --> 0:06:13.719 broke my heart about, like, so obviously we're gonna go in, right, 0:06:13.720 --> 0:06:15.440 I'm gonna see what's going on. We're going to see 0:06:15.440 --> 0:06:19.720 what we can do to help. And they're little kids. 0:06:19.720 --> 0:06:22.000 Remember there was this little girl and this one still 0:06:22.040 --> 0:06:24.080 makes me really sad. But she would find me. There 0:06:24.080 --> 0:06:27.000 were thousands of people there. Every single time I came, 0:06:27.120 --> 0:06:30.360 she would find me. Found me. The first day ah, 0:06:31.120 --> 0:06:34.160 and she would like we talked for a little bit 0:06:34.200 --> 0:06:37.039 about what she was doing, and then she was standing 0:06:37.080 --> 0:06:40.960 like halfway up her little shins in mud, and she 0:06:41.040 --> 0:06:42.880 didn't have any works like shower or be clean, you know. 0:06:42.960 --> 0:06:44.719 She was living in a sort of tarp shelter and 0:06:44.760 --> 0:06:47.520 it just fucking broke my heart. So used to she 0:06:47.600 --> 0:06:49.320 used to like plack my hair a lot so and 0:06:49.360 --> 0:06:54.280 carry her around. And that was just like this realization 0:06:54.320 --> 0:06:57.560 for me, like of how cruel this thing is. Shortly 0:06:57.560 --> 0:06:59.760 there after, of course, the police stood in the parking 0:06:59.839 --> 0:07:02.720 lot of the Tommy Hill Figure discount store in order 0:07:02.760 --> 0:07:05.640 to fire tear gases some of the most marginalized and 0:07:05.720 --> 0:07:08.800 desperate people certainly in that part of the world, right, 0:07:08.839 --> 0:07:11.400 And just that it's it's a scene that like, yeah, 0:07:11.440 --> 0:07:13.360 that would if you put that in a movie, you 0:07:13.400 --> 0:07:15.440 would be like, it's a little bit heavy handed, right, 0:07:15.800 --> 0:07:18.400 having them shoot from the Tommy Hill finger at the 0:07:18.480 --> 0:07:21.480 desperate migrants. That's a little bit heavy. Yeah, yeah, it's 0:07:21.480 --> 0:07:24.080 it's it's just dis advanced fucking parody of where we 0:07:24.120 --> 0:07:27.200 are as a society. But yeah, the the DHS helicopter 0:07:27.280 --> 0:07:29.240 is taking off from the Tommy Hill Figure store to 0:07:29.320 --> 0:07:32.200 fire tear grass grenades at the children who just want 0:07:32.200 --> 0:07:34.480 a safe place to sleep. I had a moment like 0:07:34.560 --> 0:07:37.960 that in a protest where the Portland police We were 0:07:38.000 --> 0:07:41.840 in um uh North Portland, UM, which is like in 0:07:41.880 --> 0:07:44.160 a neighborhood that was like one of the fairly few 0:07:44.240 --> 0:07:47.360 like black neighborhoods in Portland, and the cops you know, 0:07:47.400 --> 0:07:50.240 win ape Ship and started firing impact munitions down Martin 0:07:50.320 --> 0:07:53.960 Luther King Boulevard. And I didn't catch myself at first, 0:07:53.960 --> 0:07:55.480 and I was like, the cops are now shooting down 0:07:55.480 --> 0:08:10.840 Martin Luther. Yeah, you've been in and around like you 0:08:10.840 --> 0:08:14.120 you live there obviously, So who are like, who are 0:08:14.160 --> 0:08:15.800 some of the folks that you've come across that are 0:08:15.840 --> 0:08:18.080 doing the most to actually help there? And what kind 0:08:18.120 --> 0:08:21.160 of help like is necessary? Because I feel like one 0:08:21.200 --> 0:08:22.720 of the one of the things I think is the 0:08:22.760 --> 0:08:25.640 primary shortcoming of it could happen here is a show 0:08:25.760 --> 0:08:28.640 so far is that the way Garrison and I phrase 0:08:28.720 --> 0:08:30.720 it is like a lot of our episodes are here's 0:08:30.720 --> 0:08:33.480 a problem. Goodbye, Right, We're like, here's the thing that's bad. 0:08:34.120 --> 0:08:38.200 Off we go, like so what I guess the two 0:08:38.320 --> 0:08:40.320 chief questions I think they need to be answered, because 0:08:40.360 --> 0:08:42.760 I'm hoping pretty much everyone here is on board with 0:08:43.000 --> 0:08:45.880 the border is a nightmare. Uh, something's got to be done. 0:08:46.040 --> 0:08:48.439 What are the kind of things that can actually materially 0:08:48.480 --> 0:08:53.800 improve people's lives who are being affected by this border ecosystem? 0:08:53.840 --> 0:08:55.880 And then who are the motherfucker's who are actually out 0:08:55.880 --> 0:08:58.920 there trying to unfuck things that to the extent that 0:08:59.000 --> 0:09:02.920 unfucking is doable here? Yeah, So I think like just 0:09:03.080 --> 0:09:06.240 to further like make people sad first, Like, if you 0:09:06.280 --> 0:09:09.400 look up de Colonial Atlas southern border, you can find 0:09:09.400 --> 0:09:11.480 this map of where migrants die when they're coming to 0:09:11.480 --> 0:09:14.319 the United States, right, And we often it's constructed in 0:09:14.360 --> 0:09:16.800 the news media is like it's dangerous crossing Mexico. It is. 0:09:16.880 --> 0:09:20.080 It's it's dangerous coming across the Darien Gap. Sure it is, 0:09:20.440 --> 0:09:22.600 But the vast bulk of people die within a few 0:09:22.600 --> 0:09:26.000 miles of our southern border, right. And that's because, especially 0:09:26.080 --> 0:09:29.080 now with the way we've constructed the border wall. Right 0:09:29.080 --> 0:09:33.040 before the election, Donald Trump in a debate made claims 0:09:33.040 --> 0:09:35.480 about how much border war he built like everything else, 0:09:35.480 --> 0:09:37.800 he was full of shit. So they just tried to 0:09:37.800 --> 0:09:39.880 build as much as they could between them the election, 0:09:40.000 --> 0:09:42.400 so they just skip the hard parts, skip the mountain, 0:09:42.440 --> 0:09:45.320 to skip the valleys, and that often forces people to 0:09:45.320 --> 0:09:47.840 cross in the most arduous terrain, right, so that that's 0:09:47.880 --> 0:09:52.400 increased the amount of people dying. So we can look 0:09:52.440 --> 0:09:55.560 broadly at like two categories of support, right, which are like, um, 0:09:55.840 --> 0:09:59.040 I guess like direct aid and then legal aid. So 0:09:59.360 --> 0:10:03.120 m on the legal aid side the guys who guys 0:10:03.240 --> 0:10:05.360 and girls and other people who who have been really 0:10:05.360 --> 0:10:09.640 really helpful to the other side right there there Legal 0:10:09.640 --> 0:10:13.680 aid group. They were very very cool during the during 0:10:13.679 --> 0:10:16.880 the microt care event, like they and I realized that 0:10:16.960 --> 0:10:18.480 something about a loaded phrase, right, I'm just trying to 0:10:18.520 --> 0:10:21.480 use a word that people will understand. They were there 0:10:21.520 --> 0:10:24.160 constantly helping people with good course letters. They were there 0:10:24.160 --> 0:10:26.920 filing legal briefs on their behalf. As a result of that, 0:10:26.960 --> 0:10:29.480 many of them were illegally surveiled by the Department of 0:10:29.480 --> 0:10:34.520 Homeland Security. We had the phones taken, the communications trace, 0:10:34.559 --> 0:10:39.400 their movements traced, their network trace, etcetera. They are wonderful people, right, like, 0:10:39.440 --> 0:10:44.080 they do amazing things with helping people get legal aid. Um. 0:10:45.160 --> 0:10:47.240 And then you've got the people who are helping people 0:10:48.360 --> 0:10:50.120 while they cross, right, And there are a number of 0:10:50.160 --> 0:10:52.920 these mutual a groups. If you're in a certain region 0:10:53.679 --> 0:10:56.200 there at the border, there is probably someone near you. 0:10:56.240 --> 0:10:58.719 I'm no expert on all of them, but you can 0:10:58.760 --> 0:11:04.079 look at like no mass there is in Arizona Armados believe, 0:11:04.440 --> 0:11:05.880 I think they. I don't know if they operate also 0:11:05.880 --> 0:11:09.920 in Texas, but certainly in that California Arizona area. You 0:11:09.960 --> 0:11:12.040 can look at border angels, right. Border angels are probably 0:11:12.080 --> 0:11:14.720 the biggest, most public facing one, and they are fantastic. Right. 0:11:14.720 --> 0:11:17.520 They're out there making sure that there are cashes of 0:11:17.520 --> 0:11:20.160 water for people who are crossing, making sure that when 0:11:20.160 --> 0:11:22.080 it's cold at night there are warm clothes, and when 0:11:22.120 --> 0:11:25.320 it's hot, there are clothes suitable for that weather. Right, 0:11:25.320 --> 0:11:28.760 maybe in a new backpack, canned food. They're like doing 0:11:28.840 --> 0:11:34.040 the active stuff that stops people dying. Um, and that's invaluable, right, 0:11:34.040 --> 0:11:36.199 And it's also important in terms of showing that like 0:11:36.679 --> 0:11:39.600 they're often right. Things I've seen like like you're welcome, right, 0:11:39.720 --> 0:11:43.120 welcome to this country or whatever. It's showing that most 0:11:43.160 --> 0:11:46.760 of us don't agree with this dehumanizing brutalization of migrants 0:11:46.760 --> 0:11:49.360 that state is doing on our behalf, and so showing 0:11:49.400 --> 0:11:53.040 that welcome. It's very important. There are lots of indigenous groups. Um. 0:11:53.760 --> 0:11:55.040 I did ask if I could name them, but that 0:11:55.080 --> 0:11:56.520 they didn't get back to me, so I don't want to. 0:11:56.600 --> 0:11:59.160 But like there are groups within the toronaud Term nation 0:11:59.200 --> 0:12:01.240 and their groups within the Umu nation, I'm sure there 0:12:01.240 --> 0:12:05.439 are groups within other tribes whom the border crossed, right, 0:12:05.559 --> 0:12:09.040 who lived in this area long before it was a border, 0:12:09.160 --> 0:12:11.600 who are also out there helping people. There are also 0:12:11.679 --> 0:12:15.960 individuals helping people out on their property, right. Um if 0:12:16.040 --> 0:12:18.360 you if you can't find how to donate one of 0:12:18.360 --> 0:12:19.880 those groups, you can reach out to me. That's fine. 0:12:19.920 --> 0:12:22.640 But yeah, I think the work they're doing is invaluable, 0:12:22.640 --> 0:12:25.080 both in terms of like showing people that they are 0:12:25.200 --> 0:12:28.320 welcome and in terms of saving lives. Right. More and 0:12:28.360 --> 0:12:32.240 more people die at the border every year, especially with 0:12:32.320 --> 0:12:34.360 things like Title forty two, which we can get into 0:12:35.040 --> 0:12:40.560 with MPP sure. So Title forty two it's a public 0:12:40.600 --> 0:12:42.840 it's part of a public health law. It's very antiquated. 0:12:42.840 --> 0:12:44.680 I think it was last used in the nineteen thirties. 0:12:45.160 --> 0:12:48.480 The idea behind it was to stop people with tuberculosis 0:12:48.520 --> 0:12:52.200 coming into the United States and if they have and 0:12:52.640 --> 0:12:55.839 um um if they have an infectious to transmissible disease 0:12:55.880 --> 0:12:58.360 I think it's called, then they can be immediately sent 0:12:58.400 --> 0:13:01.440 back without processing. Right. Um, this was part of a 0:13:01.480 --> 0:13:03.439 whole suite of things that they used to do to 0:13:03.920 --> 0:13:06.559 laborers coming north. Right. They would also spray them with 0:13:06.920 --> 0:13:10.320 all kinds of insecticides, which obviously is not good for 0:13:10.320 --> 0:13:14.040 the health. And so title fully to the idea being 0:13:14.080 --> 0:13:15.840 you know, you get if you present to me at 0:13:15.880 --> 0:13:18.760 the border and I'm a border patrol guy and you're 0:13:18.800 --> 0:13:22.599 like coughing up a lung and obviously tuberculous, cuberculous. I 0:13:22.640 --> 0:13:28.000 don't know you have tubercule, yeah, tuberculastic, then I will 0:13:28.040 --> 0:13:30.640 send you back and just be like no Robert oft 0:13:30.720 --> 0:13:32.840 until you're healthy. You're going to infect everyone else here, 0:13:32.920 --> 0:13:35.680 especially if I detain you. Now, what it's being used 0:13:35.720 --> 0:13:40.440 to do with COVID nineteen is to not process migrants right, 0:13:40.480 --> 0:13:42.440 to do what's called catch and released, just bump them 0:13:42.440 --> 0:13:46.520 south and let them go. What that means is that 0:13:46.559 --> 0:13:50.560 these so normally you could cross surrender to a CBP 0:13:50.600 --> 0:13:52.800 AG and that's another miss missunderstanding. Right, A lot of 0:13:52.840 --> 0:13:55.480 people will want to surrender right there that they they 0:13:55.559 --> 0:13:59.480 have no intention of not being processed um for certain 0:13:59.520 --> 0:14:01.720 countries as being called a TPS, which I'll explain in 0:14:01.720 --> 0:14:03.960 a second, which which there will be no reason for 0:14:03.960 --> 0:14:07.599 them not to be processed. So these people will cross, 0:14:07.679 --> 0:14:10.080 and now they could just get dumped on the other side. Right, 0:14:10.080 --> 0:14:12.400 it doesn't matter if they are a person who is pregnant, 0:14:12.400 --> 0:14:14.240 doesn't matter, if the elderly, doesn't matter, if they're medically 0:14:14.280 --> 0:14:17.000 compromised a week. They can't just get dumped. What this 0:14:17.040 --> 0:14:20.600 has meant is that people who are helping them cross, right, 0:14:20.640 --> 0:14:22.800 people who maybe charge a fee for helping them cross, 0:14:23.360 --> 0:14:27.280 are offering like crossings without limits. You we'll just try again, 0:14:27.960 --> 0:14:30.360 try again. And it means, like I said before, because 0:14:30.440 --> 0:14:33.280 of the combination of this and then this, this hostile 0:14:33.320 --> 0:14:35.840 infrastructure that we're building, right, this boarder wall system, that 0:14:35.960 --> 0:14:39.240 people will try crossing in more and more remote places. Right. 0:14:40.320 --> 0:14:43.680 That is when people die crossing, is when they cry 0:14:43.680 --> 0:14:46.760 and cross in in places that are are hotter, that 0:14:46.840 --> 0:14:50.160 are more arduous. Right, it requires days of walking sometimes 0:14:50.360 --> 0:14:52.200 in like and I've been in that terrain. I spend 0:14:52.400 --> 0:14:54.600 a lot of my time out there, and like for 0:14:54.640 --> 0:14:56.440 a long time, it's been more or less my job 0:14:56.480 --> 0:14:58.720 to be outside out there, and it is hard. So 0:14:59.240 --> 0:15:01.120 if I imagine seeing with everything I need to start 0:15:01.120 --> 0:15:03.240 my new life and carrying my child, it's very difficult 0:15:03.240 --> 0:15:06.520 for me. And I'm more accustomed to it than most, 0:15:06.720 --> 0:15:10.080 so it's it's very difficult and forcing people to just 0:15:10.160 --> 0:15:13.120 kind of bounce back. Because when we drop someone in Mexico, right, 0:15:13.160 --> 0:15:18.320 if they are Guatemalan Honduran, they don't have any network there, right, 0:15:19.240 --> 0:15:23.400 it doesn't exactly help, like uh into like sometimes we 0:15:23.440 --> 0:15:27.040 like this construct that like the border fuels crime, right, 0:15:27.600 --> 0:15:31.400 like crime is like they talk about like like sometimes 0:15:31.400 --> 0:15:33.760 cartels is far too broadly used. Nearly always it's far 0:15:33.800 --> 0:15:36.760 too broadly used. But this idea that the board of 0:15:36.800 --> 0:15:41.040 funds like drug running an organization such as that, well, 0:15:41.080 --> 0:15:43.360 you don't help by dumping someone where they have no 0:15:43.400 --> 0:15:45.560 other means of making a living, right where they're going 0:15:45.600 --> 0:15:48.360 to be very poor and now they don't have any 0:15:48.360 --> 0:15:49.960 mate and I have anyone to go to to ask 0:15:50.000 --> 0:15:52.560 for help, write like, I don't blame people for trying 0:15:52.600 --> 0:15:55.720 to find a way to do something so understandably, like 0:15:55.880 --> 0:15:59.640 if I don't think I think it's largely a lie 0:15:59.720 --> 0:16:03.560 that any significant number of people sort of running drugs 0:16:03.560 --> 0:16:07.200 across the border are migrants or um you know, I 0:16:07.200 --> 0:16:10.760 think that's that's largely a racist lie. But leaving people 0:16:10.760 --> 0:16:15.120 dislocated there is a recipe for poverty, and I can't 0:16:15.600 --> 0:16:18.760 know things like crime do happen more. I guess when 0:16:18.800 --> 0:16:20.880 people are poor and don't have any other options, that 0:16:21.000 --> 0:16:23.800 makes sense if we go back to TPS really quickly, 0:16:23.800 --> 0:16:26.680 because I think that's important to temporary protected status. Right 0:16:26.920 --> 0:16:30.680 you'll see people on Twitter talking about TPS. What that 0:16:30.800 --> 0:16:33.280 basically means is that they can't deport you back to 0:16:33.360 --> 0:16:37.200 a country. So it took Biden an obscenely long time 0:16:37.240 --> 0:16:40.560 to grant a TPS for the people from Ukraine, right 0:16:40.960 --> 0:16:47.400 fived something. People went into the deportation system between the 0:16:47.520 --> 0:16:52.800 time in like November December, when Biden's administration started being 0:16:52.840 --> 0:16:54.840 like there is going to be war in Ukraine and 0:16:54.880 --> 0:16:58.120 Russians are going to invade Ukraine, they were still actively 0:16:58.120 --> 0:17:00.600 in the process of sending people back to Ukraine at 0:17:00.600 --> 0:17:02.640 that time. It wasn't until about a week into the 0:17:02.640 --> 0:17:05.960 shooting war that they said, Okay, temporary protected status, we 0:17:06.000 --> 0:17:08.480 won't send you back. It exists for other countries, exists 0:17:08.520 --> 0:17:13.440 for Haiti. It exists for me and mar Burma, right. Um, 0:17:13.480 --> 0:17:15.000 I don't know if it exists for Syria or I 0:17:15.000 --> 0:17:19.000 think it does, but these countries where basically like we 0:17:19.080 --> 0:17:23.080 won't send you back there. And TPS is very important, 0:17:23.400 --> 0:17:26.320 right because it stops people being deported to places where 0:17:26.359 --> 0:17:29.560 they will die. And it's important to understand that, like 0:17:29.560 --> 0:17:31.680 you could have everything right in terms of your assilum 0:17:31.720 --> 0:17:35.280 application and still be sent back. It's a cruel and 0:17:35.480 --> 0:17:38.439 very impersonal system. So a TPS is important, And if 0:17:38.480 --> 0:17:40.639 you're into sort of advocating for laws, then it's an 0:17:40.640 --> 0:17:45.879 important thing to advocate for. I think yeah, Um, in 0:17:45.960 --> 0:17:50.120 terms of more, I think that's important because we kind 0:17:50.119 --> 0:17:52.320 of the electoral side of things is not does not 0:17:52.440 --> 0:17:54.960 tend to be our focus here, but it's also not useless. 0:17:55.000 --> 0:17:56.679 Like the border is one of the areas most clearly 0:17:56.680 --> 0:18:00.359 where you can see both how advocating and the realm 0:18:00.440 --> 0:18:03.920 can immediately improve people's lives and also how both sides 0:18:03.960 --> 0:18:06.600 of the political spectrum use the border as a weapon 0:18:06.600 --> 0:18:09.200 to hurt. Yeah, exactly. The boarder is definitely a stage 0:18:09.200 --> 0:18:11.760 for both sides political theater. Like look at Joe Biden, right, 0:18:11.760 --> 0:18:14.040 he's coming in, He's signing this declaration. On the first day, 0:18:14.119 --> 0:18:15.800 remember the day he was inaugurated, I went out to 0:18:15.840 --> 0:18:18.600 the border wall just sat there by myself and like 0:18:18.760 --> 0:18:22.120 wept because it's just this horrible, ugly thing that's such 0:18:22.119 --> 0:18:26.920 a scar on the place that I love. And he's 0:18:27.040 --> 0:18:29.720 done funck all right, and he's deporting more people than Trump, 0:18:29.760 --> 0:18:31.919 and he's building his own Biden barrier, which is the 0:18:31.960 --> 0:18:34.640 same thing with that nantikliin plate. But yeah, like, even 0:18:34.680 --> 0:18:37.520 if you don't agree with the existence of laws and lawmakers, right, 0:18:37.560 --> 0:18:40.920 there's this concept that I like a lot called normative anarchism. 0:18:40.920 --> 0:18:43.000 I think it's Wolf, the guy who wrote it. But like, 0:18:43.760 --> 0:18:46.159 we can move towards the state doing less cruelty and 0:18:46.200 --> 0:18:47.760 being a little more free, and that is a move 0:18:47.800 --> 0:18:50.400 in the right direction, even if it's not the end goal. 0:18:50.520 --> 0:18:52.520 And I think the border is a place where you 0:18:52.520 --> 0:18:55.280 can really make a difference like that, right, Like some 0:18:55.400 --> 0:19:00.240 small changes in how things are done would reduce used 0:19:00.240 --> 0:19:03.840 as the cruelty to people who have done nothing wrong massively. 0:19:03.920 --> 0:19:05.640 So I think it is an area where even those 0:19:05.680 --> 0:19:08.040 of us who might not be generally inclined to like 0:19:08.080 --> 0:19:11.760 electoral stuff, like you can I think I don't know 0:19:11.920 --> 0:19:13.880 if you can make a distance because, like so many 0:19:13.880 --> 0:19:16.320 people in Milwaukee, you're watching Fox News and are fucking 0:19:16.440 --> 0:19:19.679 completely convinced that the border is just I don't know, 0:19:19.720 --> 0:19:23.200 people with guns trying to smuggle children or whatever. But yeah, 0:19:23.240 --> 0:19:25.840 it's an area where small changes in policy make a 0:19:25.920 --> 0:19:28.640 huge Title forty two right, not even a law, it's 0:19:28.680 --> 0:19:31.440 an executive or it's not even executive, or it's an interpretation. 0:19:32.400 --> 0:19:35.480 Uh the war right, most of that ship wasn't built 0:19:35.480 --> 0:19:38.040 by Congress. It was built by executive orders. So like 0:19:38.400 --> 0:19:41.640 that stuff, I think is a place where you can 0:19:41.840 --> 0:19:44.959 you can affect positive change for people. Now. Unfortunate, we've 0:19:44.960 --> 0:19:46.560 got to driant wall and I don't think it's coming 0:19:46.560 --> 0:19:49.240 down anytime soon, But it doesn't mean we shouldn't actively 0:19:49.280 --> 0:20:01.520 try to make things kinder for people coming here now. 0:20:01.520 --> 0:20:04.120 On the direct action side of things, which I think 0:20:04.359 --> 0:20:06.600 more of our audience tends to support, one of the 0:20:06.640 --> 0:20:10.520 most obvious things is just like setting out, as you said, 0:20:10.560 --> 0:20:13.320 like drops of water, food equipment. Now that's kind of 0:20:13.680 --> 0:20:16.000 depending on where you are, can be shall always say 0:20:16.000 --> 0:20:18.439 complex from a legal standpoint. Can you talk to that 0:20:18.520 --> 0:20:21.440 a little bit, yes, certainly. So, Like the obvious cases 0:20:21.440 --> 0:20:25.159 are one in Arizona, right, which eventually ended up the 0:20:25.200 --> 0:20:29.119 person was vindicated, but vindicated to your own word, but 0:20:29.640 --> 0:20:33.440 not didn't go to prison exactly. Yeah. Yeah, what he 0:20:33.520 --> 0:20:36.320 was doing was right from the start. But yeah, it 0:20:36.359 --> 0:20:38.240 can be complex, I think, especially if you're in some 0:20:38.359 --> 0:20:42.120 of these states which are like doing culture war, right 0:20:42.119 --> 0:20:46.399 like Arizona in Texas. Yeah, the cruelty is kind of 0:20:46.440 --> 0:20:49.800 the point. So if you are doing something to alleviate 0:20:49.840 --> 0:20:51.920 that cruelty, making an example, if he was very much 0:20:51.920 --> 0:20:54.360 in the interest of those cultural war politicians and judges 0:20:54.440 --> 0:20:57.199 and other people, which is why it's important to do 0:20:57.240 --> 0:20:59.840