1 00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:09,959 Speaker 1: Welcome to It could happen here, the podcast that's happening 2 00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:14,440 Speaker 1: here right now, in your ears, it could happen ere. 3 00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:17,480 Speaker 1: I'm Robert Evans. Um, I'm I'm not with any of 4 00:00:17,480 --> 00:00:22,680 Speaker 1: my normal UH co hosts today because because fuck them, No, 5 00:00:22,920 --> 00:00:26,080 Speaker 1: because I'm elsewhere in the world right now, hanging out 6 00:00:26,120 --> 00:00:28,080 Speaker 1: with someone you might remember from a special episode we 7 00:00:28,120 --> 00:00:33,320 Speaker 1: recently did on Molotov Cocktails. Journalist James Stout. Hi, everyone, Yeah, 8 00:00:33,360 --> 00:00:36,320 Speaker 1: I'm here with Robert in a tiny hotel room and 9 00:00:36,360 --> 00:00:39,720 Speaker 1: we've just woken up. We need to do some podcasting. Yeah, 10 00:00:39,760 --> 00:00:42,120 Speaker 1: we're not. We're not here for any specific purpose. We 11 00:00:42,159 --> 00:00:44,680 Speaker 1: just decided let's run a hotel room, cast some pods, 12 00:00:44,800 --> 00:00:48,480 Speaker 1: you know, hang out. Um, James, how do you feel 13 00:00:48,479 --> 00:00:53,440 Speaker 1: about the border? Negatively? Broadly speaking, I think the border 14 00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:56,120 Speaker 1: is a tool that we used to harm and kill 15 00:00:56,200 --> 00:00:59,240 Speaker 1: the most marginalized people in the world. I think that's 16 00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:00,960 Speaker 1: kind of borne out by stats as well. Not a 17 00:01:00,960 --> 00:01:03,520 Speaker 1: big not a big border guy. Yeah, and you and 18 00:01:03,560 --> 00:01:06,680 Speaker 1: I recently spent a decent amount of time on the 19 00:01:06,760 --> 00:01:10,840 Speaker 1: Texas Mexico chunk of the border, specifically near McAllen, Texas, 20 00:01:11,319 --> 00:01:14,200 Speaker 1: hanging out at a Butterfly sanctuary that people can learn 21 00:01:14,200 --> 00:01:15,959 Speaker 1: some things about if they google will be coming out 22 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:17,840 Speaker 1: that those episodes will be dropping in the not too 23 00:01:17,880 --> 00:01:21,080 Speaker 1: distant future. Um. But you live on the San Diego 24 00:01:21,440 --> 00:01:24,480 Speaker 1: side of the border, um, which if people don't know, 25 00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:28,720 Speaker 1: San Diego, California is basically in Mexico. Um, you can 26 00:01:28,800 --> 00:01:31,200 Speaker 1: you can hop over across for like lunch and stuff 27 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:34,640 Speaker 1: if you really want to and don't mind dealing with CBP. UM. 28 00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:37,000 Speaker 1: And Yeah, so I you've done a lot of reporting 29 00:01:37,160 --> 00:01:40,039 Speaker 1: around the border and about kind of the system of 30 00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:42,760 Speaker 1: violence that it represents. Um, I wanted to chat a 31 00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:44,880 Speaker 1: little bit like about that, and I wanted to chat 32 00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:48,040 Speaker 1: about some of the organizations that you've run into that 33 00:01:48,080 --> 00:01:50,000 Speaker 1: are doing good work out there, because there's a lot 34 00:01:50,040 --> 00:01:53,520 Speaker 1: that needs to be done. Yeah, definitely, I think, Um, 35 00:01:53,560 --> 00:01:56,000 Speaker 1: I think it's really important to like conceptualize what's happening 36 00:01:56,040 --> 00:01:58,840 Speaker 1: at the border in terms of, like the border is 37 00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:01,440 Speaker 1: a tool for state vine right to state violence against 38 00:02:01,440 --> 00:02:04,720 Speaker 1: marginalized people, and like what the good group groups helping 39 00:02:04,760 --> 00:02:07,080 Speaker 1: people on the boarder represent is like ways of us 40 00:02:07,080 --> 00:02:09,720 Speaker 1: helping each other which are outside the networks of us 41 00:02:09,760 --> 00:02:12,639 Speaker 1: having power over each other. Right, So in the broader 42 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:15,520 Speaker 1: spectrum of like neutral aid of mutual support, Like I 43 00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:18,200 Speaker 1: think they're really important to focus on rather than kind 44 00:02:18,240 --> 00:02:21,000 Speaker 1: of so many people construct the border in their minds. 45 00:02:21,040 --> 00:02:23,120 Speaker 1: Like you can see if you go back on my Twitter, 46 00:02:23,280 --> 00:02:25,160 Speaker 1: some guy just being like that is not the border. 47 00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:27,000 Speaker 1: The border does not look like that. The border is 48 00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:29,240 Speaker 1: barren and it's desert and it's full of people with 49 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:32,120 Speaker 1: guns and it's really not right. Like, so the border 50 00:02:32,160 --> 00:02:34,560 Speaker 1: exists as like this mental construct a place where we 51 00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:37,600 Speaker 1: can do like political theater, especially on the right. So 52 00:02:37,639 --> 00:02:39,240 Speaker 1: people who are actually down there on the ground and 53 00:02:39,320 --> 00:02:43,000 Speaker 1: understand it, I think it's it's vital to support them. Yeah. 54 00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:45,080 Speaker 1: One of the more striking moments to me when we 55 00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:48,240 Speaker 1: were in McAllen was hanging out near this trunk of 56 00:02:48,280 --> 00:02:53,480 Speaker 1: border fence that had been constructed unlike by volunteers effectively. Um, 57 00:02:53,560 --> 00:02:55,720 Speaker 1: and it's this, it's it's it's what you would expect, 58 00:02:55,840 --> 00:02:59,239 Speaker 1: like the stereotype of the border. It's this huge, military 59 00:02:59,320 --> 00:03:03,640 Speaker 1: industrial looking thing. The wildlife has been cleared from around 60 00:03:03,720 --> 00:03:06,040 Speaker 1: it so that you can have this towering steel edifice. 61 00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:11,000 Speaker 1: But then a hundred yards away across the rio is 62 00:03:11,040 --> 00:03:13,320 Speaker 1: the Mexican side of the border, and there's like a 63 00:03:13,320 --> 00:03:16,400 Speaker 1: couple of goat farms and like a little restaurant with 64 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:18,760 Speaker 1: a little dock so people can like you know, take 65 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:21,200 Speaker 1: their little boats out and people are drinking and there's 66 00:03:21,240 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 1: party music playing, and like it's it's nice, it's pastoral 67 00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:26,680 Speaker 1: and green. It was. It looked like a lovely place. 68 00:03:26,680 --> 00:03:28,639 Speaker 1: It looked much nicer than hanging out by the giant 69 00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:31,760 Speaker 1: steel tower. Yeah, I found that all along the border actually, 70 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:34,080 Speaker 1: like we are side of the border looks like something 71 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:36,960 Speaker 1: from a blade Runner or something like it's this giant 72 00:03:37,080 --> 00:03:41,640 Speaker 1: dystopian steel construct with with people with guns, with watch towers, 73 00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:44,600 Speaker 1: and it's horrific, right, Like it cuts through some of 74 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:48,160 Speaker 1: the most beautiful and important landscapes we have, right through 75 00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:52,640 Speaker 1: the high desert, through these very fragile places, and like 76 00:03:52,880 --> 00:03:54,680 Speaker 1: it's important. I think people understand as well what the 77 00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:57,040 Speaker 1: border wall looks like, right because you've probably seen a 78 00:03:57,040 --> 00:04:00,560 Speaker 1: photograph of giant ass wall um and that is part 79 00:04:00,560 --> 00:04:02,640 Speaker 1: of it. But they call it the border wall ecosystem. 80 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:06,960 Speaker 1: And what that involves is the wall itself, sometimes a ditch, 81 00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:10,680 Speaker 1: sometimes not a ditch, and then a road that's wide 82 00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:13,839 Speaker 1: enough for two of the f one fifty raptors, water 83 00:04:13,880 --> 00:04:17,800 Speaker 1: patrol like to drive to pass each other and then 84 00:04:17,680 --> 00:04:20,159 Speaker 1: access road to that and then genermanly there's also an 85 00:04:20,200 --> 00:04:23,000 Speaker 1: access road cut that allows construction vehicles to get to 86 00:04:23,040 --> 00:04:26,000 Speaker 1: build all of that. So it's not just some spikes 87 00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:29,680 Speaker 1: in the desert. It's fucking destroying this beautiful part of 88 00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:33,560 Speaker 1: both of Mexico and the United States. Right now, before 89 00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:37,440 Speaker 1: we get into some of these organizations, I'm wondering, first off, 90 00:04:37,440 --> 00:04:40,440 Speaker 1: when did you start reporting on the US Mexico border 91 00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:44,040 Speaker 1: And is there any kind of specific events that that 92 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:47,160 Speaker 1: you can recall that really kind of ignited your your 93 00:04:47,200 --> 00:04:51,840 Speaker 1: interest in this particular like part of the United States, 94 00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:57,080 Speaker 1: in this particular part of like our ongoing social conflict. Yeah. 95 00:04:57,080 --> 00:05:00,760 Speaker 1: Like I've always been interested in borderlands, like academically, uh 96 00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:04,080 Speaker 1: and as part of my PhD UM. But I guess 97 00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:06,960 Speaker 1: i'd probably about eight or nine years i've been reporting 98 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:11,280 Speaker 1: on the border. The thing that really sort of took 99 00:05:11,320 --> 00:05:13,680 Speaker 1: it from being like the border is sometimes I think 100 00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:15,200 Speaker 1: I write about I did a lot of outdoor writing 101 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:16,840 Speaker 1: about the border to right. It was very interesting in 102 00:05:16,839 --> 00:05:19,400 Speaker 1: getting more people to go outside in bak California. It's 103 00:05:19,440 --> 00:05:23,920 Speaker 1: amazing and you should do it. But what really sort 104 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:25,839 Speaker 1: of I guess made me be the Gulf funk. This 105 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:30,800 Speaker 1: is fucking horrible. U is quote unquote migrant caravan. Right. 106 00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:35,800 Speaker 1: So I've been down just just enjoying a weekend in 107 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:39,279 Speaker 1: fettle further south and a little further south of Tijuana 108 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:41,720 Speaker 1: and having a really good wine country there. So we've 109 00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:45,960 Speaker 1: been checking out these wine places and just enjoying ourselves. 110 00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:49,520 Speaker 1: And we come back and then these people are in 111 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:54,200 Speaker 1: um what's called the Benito Kuaida's Sports Complex. It's just 112 00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:57,560 Speaker 1: a baseball field, and it's raining and it's November, and 113 00:05:57,640 --> 00:06:00,280 Speaker 1: it looks like a fucking battle of the saw him 114 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:02,760 Speaker 1: in there. You know, it's mud. They're little children, and 115 00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:05,839 Speaker 1: I've been in these situations before, if I've seen situations 116 00:06:05,839 --> 00:06:09,920 Speaker 1: with displaced people before, but there was something that just 117 00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:13,719 Speaker 1: broke my heart about, like, so obviously we're gonna go in, right, 118 00:06:13,720 --> 00:06:15,440 Speaker 1: I'm gonna see what's going on. We're going to see 119 00:06:15,440 --> 00:06:19,720 Speaker 1: what we can do to help. And they're little kids. 120 00:06:19,720 --> 00:06:22,000 Speaker 1: Remember there was this little girl and this one still 121 00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:24,080 Speaker 1: makes me really sad. But she would find me. There 122 00:06:24,080 --> 00:06:27,000 Speaker 1: were thousands of people there. Every single time I came, 123 00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:30,360 Speaker 1: she would find me. Found me. The first day ah, 124 00:06:31,120 --> 00:06:34,160 Speaker 1: and she would like we talked for a little bit 125 00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:37,039 Speaker 1: about what she was doing, and then she was standing 126 00:06:37,080 --> 00:06:40,960 Speaker 1: like halfway up her little shins in mud, and she 127 00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:42,880 Speaker 1: didn't have any works like shower or be clean, you know. 128 00:06:42,960 --> 00:06:44,719 Speaker 1: She was living in a sort of tarp shelter and 129 00:06:44,760 --> 00:06:47,520 Speaker 1: it just fucking broke my heart. So used to she 130 00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:49,320 Speaker 1: used to like plack my hair a lot so and 131 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:54,280 Speaker 1: carry her around. And that was just like this realization 132 00:06:54,320 --> 00:06:57,560 Speaker 1: for me, like of how cruel this thing is. Shortly 133 00:06:57,560 --> 00:06:59,760 Speaker 1: there after, of course, the police stood in the parking 134 00:06:59,839 --> 00:07:02,720 Speaker 1: lot of the Tommy Hill Figure discount store in order 135 00:07:02,760 --> 00:07:05,640 Speaker 1: to fire tear gases some of the most marginalized and 136 00:07:05,720 --> 00:07:08,800 Speaker 1: desperate people certainly in that part of the world, right, 137 00:07:08,839 --> 00:07:11,400 Speaker 1: And just that it's it's a scene that like, yeah, 138 00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:13,360 Speaker 1: that would if you put that in a movie, you 139 00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:15,440 Speaker 1: would be like, it's a little bit heavy handed, right, 140 00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:18,400 Speaker 1: having them shoot from the Tommy Hill finger at the 141 00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:21,480 Speaker 1: desperate migrants. That's a little bit heavy. Yeah, yeah, it's 142 00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:24,080 Speaker 1: it's it's just dis advanced fucking parody of where we 143 00:07:24,120 --> 00:07:27,200 Speaker 1: are as a society. But yeah, the the DHS helicopter 144 00:07:27,280 --> 00:07:29,240 Speaker 1: is taking off from the Tommy Hill Figure store to 145 00:07:29,320 --> 00:07:32,200 Speaker 1: fire tear grass grenades at the children who just want 146 00:07:32,200 --> 00:07:34,480 Speaker 1: a safe place to sleep. I had a moment like 147 00:07:34,560 --> 00:07:37,960 Speaker 1: that in a protest where the Portland police We were 148 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:41,840 Speaker 1: in um uh North Portland, UM, which is like in 149 00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:44,160 Speaker 1: a neighborhood that was like one of the fairly few 150 00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:47,360 Speaker 1: like black neighborhoods in Portland, and the cops you know, 151 00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:50,240 Speaker 1: win ape Ship and started firing impact munitions down Martin 152 00:07:50,320 --> 00:07:53,960 Speaker 1: Luther King Boulevard. And I didn't catch myself at first, 153 00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:55,480 Speaker 1: and I was like, the cops are now shooting down 154 00:07:55,480 --> 00:08:10,840 Speaker 1: Martin Luther. Yeah, you've been in and around like you 155 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:14,120 Speaker 1: you live there obviously, So who are like, who are 156 00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:15,800 Speaker 1: some of the folks that you've come across that are 157 00:08:15,840 --> 00:08:18,080 Speaker 1: doing the most to actually help there? And what kind 158 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:21,160 Speaker 1: of help like is necessary? Because I feel like one 159 00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:22,720 Speaker 1: of the one of the things I think is the 160 00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:25,640 Speaker 1: primary shortcoming of it could happen here is a show 161 00:08:25,760 --> 00:08:28,640 Speaker 1: so far is that the way Garrison and I phrase 162 00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:30,720 Speaker 1: it is like a lot of our episodes are here's 163 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:33,480 Speaker 1: a problem. Goodbye, Right, We're like, here's the thing that's bad. 164 00:08:34,120 --> 00:08:38,200 Speaker 1: Off we go, like so what I guess the two 165 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:40,320 Speaker 1: chief questions I think they need to be answered, because 166 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:42,760 Speaker 1: I'm hoping pretty much everyone here is on board with 167 00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:45,880 Speaker 1: the border is a nightmare. Uh, something's got to be done. 168 00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:48,439 Speaker 1: What are the kind of things that can actually materially 169 00:08:48,480 --> 00:08:53,800 Speaker 1: improve people's lives who are being affected by this border ecosystem? 170 00:08:53,840 --> 00:08:55,880 Speaker 1: And then who are the motherfucker's who are actually out 171 00:08:55,880 --> 00:08:58,920 Speaker 1: there trying to unfuck things that to the extent that 172 00:08:59,000 --> 00:09:02,920 Speaker 1: unfucking is doable here? Yeah, So I think like just 173 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:06,240 Speaker 1: to further like make people sad first, Like, if you 174 00:09:06,280 --> 00:09:09,400 Speaker 1: look up de Colonial Atlas southern border, you can find 175 00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:11,480 Speaker 1: this map of where migrants die when they're coming to 176 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:14,319 Speaker 1: the United States, right, And we often it's constructed in 177 00:09:14,360 --> 00:09:16,800 Speaker 1: the news media is like it's dangerous crossing Mexico. It is. 178 00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:20,080 Speaker 1: It's it's dangerous coming across the Darien Gap. Sure it is, 179 00:09:20,440 --> 00:09:22,600 Speaker 1: But the vast bulk of people die within a few 180 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:26,000 Speaker 1: miles of our southern border, right. And that's because, especially 181 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:29,080 Speaker 1: now with the way we've constructed the border wall. Right 182 00:09:29,080 --> 00:09:33,040 Speaker 1: before the election, Donald Trump in a debate made claims 183 00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:35,480 Speaker 1: about how much border war he built like everything else, 184 00:09:35,480 --> 00:09:37,800 Speaker 1: he was full of shit. So they just tried to 185 00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:39,880 Speaker 1: build as much as they could between them the election, 186 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:42,400 Speaker 1: so they just skip the hard parts, skip the mountain, 187 00:09:42,440 --> 00:09:45,320 Speaker 1: to skip the valleys, and that often forces people to 188 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:47,840 Speaker 1: cross in the most arduous terrain, right, so that that's 189 00:09:47,880 --> 00:09:52,400 Speaker 1: increased the amount of people dying. So we can look 190 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:55,560 Speaker 1: broadly at like two categories of support, right, which are like, um, 191 00:09:55,840 --> 00:09:59,040 Speaker 1: I guess like direct aid and then legal aid. So 192 00:09:59,360 --> 00:10:03,120 Speaker 1: m on the legal aid side the guys who guys 193 00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:05,360 Speaker 1: and girls and other people who who have been really 194 00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:09,640 Speaker 1: really helpful to the other side right there there Legal 195 00:10:09,640 --> 00:10:13,680 Speaker 1: aid group. They were very very cool during the during 196 00:10:13,679 --> 00:10:16,880 Speaker 1: the microt care event, like they and I realized that 197 00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:18,480 Speaker 1: something about a loaded phrase, right, I'm just trying to 198 00:10:18,520 --> 00:10:21,480 Speaker 1: use a word that people will understand. They were there 199 00:10:21,520 --> 00:10:24,160 Speaker 1: constantly helping people with good course letters. They were there 200 00:10:24,160 --> 00:10:26,920 Speaker 1: filing legal briefs on their behalf. As a result of that, 201 00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:29,480 Speaker 1: many of them were illegally surveiled by the Department of 202 00:10:29,480 --> 00:10:34,520 Speaker 1: Homeland Security. We had the phones taken, the communications trace, 203 00:10:34,559 --> 00:10:39,400 Speaker 1: their movements traced, their network trace, etcetera. They are wonderful people, right, like, 204 00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:44,080 Speaker 1: they do amazing things with helping people get legal aid. Um. 205 00:10:45,160 --> 00:10:47,240 Speaker 1: And then you've got the people who are helping people 206 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:50,120 Speaker 1: while they cross, right, And there are a number of 207 00:10:50,160 --> 00:10:52,920 Speaker 1: these mutual a groups. If you're in a certain region 208 00:10:53,679 --> 00:10:56,200 Speaker 1: there at the border, there is probably someone near you. 209 00:10:56,240 --> 00:10:58,719 Speaker 1: I'm no expert on all of them, but you can 210 00:10:58,760 --> 00:11:04,079 Speaker 1: look at like no mass there is in Arizona Armados believe, 211 00:11:04,440 --> 00:11:05,880 Speaker 1: I think they. I don't know if they operate also 212 00:11:05,880 --> 00:11:09,920 Speaker 1: in Texas, but certainly in that California Arizona area. You 213 00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:12,040 Speaker 1: can look at border angels, right. Border angels are probably 214 00:11:12,080 --> 00:11:14,720 Speaker 1: the biggest, most public facing one, and they are fantastic. Right. 215 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:17,520 Speaker 1: They're out there making sure that there are cashes of 216 00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:20,160 Speaker 1: water for people who are crossing, making sure that when 217 00:11:20,160 --> 00:11:22,080 Speaker 1: it's cold at night there are warm clothes, and when 218 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:25,320 Speaker 1: it's hot, there are clothes suitable for that weather. Right, 219 00:11:25,320 --> 00:11:28,760 Speaker 1: maybe in a new backpack, canned food. They're like doing 220 00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:34,040 Speaker 1: the active stuff that stops people dying. Um, and that's invaluable, right, 221 00:11:34,040 --> 00:11:36,199 Speaker 1: And it's also important in terms of showing that like 222 00:11:36,679 --> 00:11:39,600 Speaker 1: they're often right. Things I've seen like like you're welcome, right, 223 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:43,120 Speaker 1: welcome to this country or whatever. It's showing that most 224 00:11:43,160 --> 00:11:46,760 Speaker 1: of us don't agree with this dehumanizing brutalization of migrants 225 00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:49,360 Speaker 1: that state is doing on our behalf, and so showing 226 00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:53,040 Speaker 1: that welcome. It's very important. There are lots of indigenous groups. Um. 227 00:11:53,760 --> 00:11:55,040 Speaker 1: I did ask if I could name them, but that 228 00:11:55,080 --> 00:11:56,520 Speaker 1: they didn't get back to me, so I don't want to. 229 00:11:56,600 --> 00:11:59,160 Speaker 1: But like there are groups within the toronaud Term nation 230 00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:01,240 Speaker 1: and their groups within the Umu nation, I'm sure there 231 00:12:01,240 --> 00:12:05,439 Speaker 1: are groups within other tribes whom the border crossed, right, 232 00:12:05,559 --> 00:12:09,040 Speaker 1: who lived in this area long before it was a border, 233 00:12:09,160 --> 00:12:11,600 Speaker 1: who are also out there helping people. There are also 234 00:12:11,679 --> 00:12:15,960 Speaker 1: individuals helping people out on their property, right. Um if 235 00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:18,360 Speaker 1: you if you can't find how to donate one of 236 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:19,880 Speaker 1: those groups, you can reach out to me. That's fine. 237 00:12:19,920 --> 00:12:22,640 Speaker 1: But yeah, I think the work they're doing is invaluable, 238 00:12:22,640 --> 00:12:25,080 Speaker 1: both in terms of like showing people that they are 239 00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:28,320 Speaker 1: welcome and in terms of saving lives. Right. More and 240 00:12:28,360 --> 00:12:32,240 Speaker 1: more people die at the border every year, especially with 241 00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:34,360 Speaker 1: things like Title forty two, which we can get into 242 00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:40,560 Speaker 1: with MPP sure. So Title forty two it's a public 243 00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:42,840 Speaker 1: it's part of a public health law. It's very antiquated. 244 00:12:42,840 --> 00:12:44,680 Speaker 1: I think it was last used in the nineteen thirties. 245 00:12:45,160 --> 00:12:48,480 Speaker 1: The idea behind it was to stop people with tuberculosis 246 00:12:48,520 --> 00:12:52,200 Speaker 1: coming into the United States and if they have and 247 00:12:52,640 --> 00:12:55,839 Speaker 1: um um if they have an infectious to transmissible disease 248 00:12:55,880 --> 00:12:58,360 Speaker 1: I think it's called, then they can be immediately sent 249 00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:01,440 Speaker 1: back without processing. Right. Um, this was part of a 250 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:03,439 Speaker 1: whole suite of things that they used to do to 251 00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:06,559 Speaker 1: laborers coming north. Right. They would also spray them with 252 00:13:06,920 --> 00:13:10,320 Speaker 1: all kinds of insecticides, which obviously is not good for 253 00:13:10,320 --> 00:13:14,040 Speaker 1: the health. And so title fully to the idea being 254 00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:15,840 Speaker 1: you know, you get if you present to me at 255 00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:18,760 Speaker 1: the border and I'm a border patrol guy and you're 256 00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:22,599 Speaker 1: like coughing up a lung and obviously tuberculous, cuberculous. I 257 00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:28,000 Speaker 1: don't know you have tubercule, yeah, tuberculastic, then I will 258 00:13:28,040 --> 00:13:30,640 Speaker 1: send you back and just be like no Robert oft 259 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:32,840 Speaker 1: until you're healthy. You're going to infect everyone else here, 260 00:13:32,920 --> 00:13:35,680 Speaker 1: especially if I detain you. Now, what it's being used 261 00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:40,440 Speaker 1: to do with COVID nineteen is to not process migrants right, 262 00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:42,440 Speaker 1: to do what's called catch and released, just bump them 263 00:13:42,440 --> 00:13:46,520 Speaker 1: south and let them go. What that means is that 264 00:13:46,559 --> 00:13:50,560 Speaker 1: these so normally you could cross surrender to a CBP 265 00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:52,800 Speaker 1: AG and that's another miss missunderstanding. Right, A lot of 266 00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:55,480 Speaker 1: people will want to surrender right there that they they 267 00:13:55,559 --> 00:13:59,480 Speaker 1: have no intention of not being processed um for certain 268 00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:01,720 Speaker 1: countries as being called a TPS, which I'll explain in 269 00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:03,960 Speaker 1: a second, which which there will be no reason for 270 00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:07,599 Speaker 1: them not to be processed. So these people will cross, 271 00:14:07,679 --> 00:14:10,080 Speaker 1: and now they could just get dumped on the other side. Right, 272 00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:12,400 Speaker 1: it doesn't matter if they are a person who is pregnant, 273 00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:14,240 Speaker 1: doesn't matter, if the elderly, doesn't matter, if they're medically 274 00:14:14,280 --> 00:14:17,000 Speaker 1: compromised a week. They can't just get dumped. What this 275 00:14:17,040 --> 00:14:20,600 Speaker 1: has meant is that people who are helping them cross, right, 276 00:14:20,640 --> 00:14:22,800 Speaker 1: people who maybe charge a fee for helping them cross, 277 00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:27,280 Speaker 1: are offering like crossings without limits. You we'll just try again, 278 00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:30,360 Speaker 1: try again. And it means, like I said before, because 279 00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:33,280 Speaker 1: of the combination of this and then this, this hostile 280 00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:35,840 Speaker 1: infrastructure that we're building, right, this boarder wall system, that 281 00:14:35,960 --> 00:14:39,240 Speaker 1: people will try crossing in more and more remote places. Right. 282 00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:43,680 Speaker 1: That is when people die crossing, is when they cry 283 00:14:43,680 --> 00:14:46,760 Speaker 1: and cross in in places that are are hotter, that 284 00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:50,160 Speaker 1: are more arduous. Right, it requires days of walking sometimes 285 00:14:50,360 --> 00:14:52,200 Speaker 1: in like and I've been in that terrain. I spend 286 00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:54,600 Speaker 1: a lot of my time out there, and like for 287 00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:56,440 Speaker 1: a long time, it's been more or less my job 288 00:14:56,480 --> 00:14:58,720 Speaker 1: to be outside out there, and it is hard. So 289 00:14:59,240 --> 00:15:01,120 Speaker 1: if I imagine seeing with everything I need to start 290 00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:03,240 Speaker 1: my new life and carrying my child, it's very difficult 291 00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:06,520 Speaker 1: for me. And I'm more accustomed to it than most, 292 00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:10,080 Speaker 1: so it's it's very difficult and forcing people to just 293 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:13,120 Speaker 1: kind of bounce back. Because when we drop someone in Mexico, right, 294 00:15:13,160 --> 00:15:18,320 Speaker 1: if they are Guatemalan Honduran, they don't have any network there, right, 295 00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:23,400 Speaker 1: it doesn't exactly help, like uh into like sometimes we 296 00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:27,040 Speaker 1: like this construct that like the border fuels crime, right, 297 00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:31,400 Speaker 1: like crime is like they talk about like like sometimes 298 00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:33,760 Speaker 1: cartels is far too broadly used. Nearly always it's far 299 00:15:33,800 --> 00:15:36,760 Speaker 1: too broadly used. But this idea that the board of 300 00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:41,040 Speaker 1: funds like drug running an organization such as that, well, 301 00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:43,360 Speaker 1: you don't help by dumping someone where they have no 302 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:45,560 Speaker 1: other means of making a living, right where they're going 303 00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:48,360 Speaker 1: to be very poor and now they don't have any 304 00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:49,960 Speaker 1: mate and I have anyone to go to to ask 305 00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:52,560 Speaker 1: for help, write like, I don't blame people for trying 306 00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:55,720 Speaker 1: to find a way to do something so understandably, like 307 00:15:55,880 --> 00:15:59,640 Speaker 1: if I don't think I think it's largely a lie 308 00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:03,560 Speaker 1: that any significant number of people sort of running drugs 309 00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:07,200 Speaker 1: across the border are migrants or um you know, I 310 00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:10,760 Speaker 1: think that's that's largely a racist lie. But leaving people 311 00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:15,120 Speaker 1: dislocated there is a recipe for poverty, and I can't 312 00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:18,760 Speaker 1: know things like crime do happen more. I guess when 313 00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:20,880 Speaker 1: people are poor and don't have any other options, that 314 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:23,800 Speaker 1: makes sense if we go back to TPS really quickly, 315 00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:26,680 Speaker 1: because I think that's important to temporary protected status. Right 316 00:16:26,920 --> 00:16:30,680 Speaker 1: you'll see people on Twitter talking about TPS. What that 317 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:33,280 Speaker 1: basically means is that they can't deport you back to 318 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:37,200 Speaker 1: a country. So it took Biden an obscenely long time 319 00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:40,560 Speaker 1: to grant a TPS for the people from Ukraine, right 320 00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:47,400 Speaker 1: fived something. People went into the deportation system between the 321 00:16:47,520 --> 00:16:52,800 Speaker 1: time in like November December, when Biden's administration started being 322 00:16:52,840 --> 00:16:54,840 Speaker 1: like there is going to be war in Ukraine and 323 00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:58,120 Speaker 1: Russians are going to invade Ukraine, they were still actively 324 00:16:58,120 --> 00:17:00,600 Speaker 1: in the process of sending people back to Ukraine at 325 00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:02,640 Speaker 1: that time. It wasn't until about a week into the 326 00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:05,960 Speaker 1: shooting war that they said, Okay, temporary protected status, we 327 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:08,480 Speaker 1: won't send you back. It exists for other countries, exists 328 00:17:08,520 --> 00:17:13,440 Speaker 1: for Haiti. It exists for me and mar Burma, right. Um, 329 00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:15,000 Speaker 1: I don't know if it exists for Syria or I 330 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:19,000 Speaker 1: think it does, but these countries where basically like we 331 00:17:19,080 --> 00:17:23,080 Speaker 1: won't send you back there. And TPS is very important, 332 00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:26,320 Speaker 1: right because it stops people being deported to places where 333 00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:29,560 Speaker 1: they will die. And it's important to understand that, like 334 00:17:29,560 --> 00:17:31,680 Speaker 1: you could have everything right in terms of your assilum 335 00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:35,280 Speaker 1: application and still be sent back. It's a cruel and 336 00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:38,439 Speaker 1: very impersonal system. So a TPS is important, And if 337 00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:40,639 Speaker 1: you're into sort of advocating for laws, then it's an 338 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:45,879 Speaker 1: important thing to advocate for. I think yeah, Um, in 339 00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:50,120 Speaker 1: terms of more, I think that's important because we kind 340 00:17:50,119 --> 00:17:52,320 Speaker 1: of the electoral side of things is not does not 341 00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:54,960 Speaker 1: tend to be our focus here, but it's also not useless. 342 00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:56,679 Speaker 1: Like the border is one of the areas most clearly 343 00:17:56,680 --> 00:18:00,359 Speaker 1: where you can see both how advocating and the realm 344 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:03,920 Speaker 1: can immediately improve people's lives and also how both sides 345 00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:06,600 Speaker 1: of the political spectrum use the border as a weapon 346 00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:09,200 Speaker 1: to hurt. Yeah, exactly. The boarder is definitely a stage 347 00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:11,760 Speaker 1: for both sides political theater. Like look at Joe Biden, right, 348 00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:14,040 Speaker 1: he's coming in, He's signing this declaration. On the first day, 349 00:18:14,119 --> 00:18:15,800 Speaker 1: remember the day he was inaugurated, I went out to 350 00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:18,600 Speaker 1: the border wall just sat there by myself and like 351 00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:22,120 Speaker 1: wept because it's just this horrible, ugly thing that's such 352 00:18:22,119 --> 00:18:26,920 Speaker 1: a scar on the place that I love. And he's 353 00:18:27,040 --> 00:18:29,720 Speaker 1: done funck all right, and he's deporting more people than Trump, 354 00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:31,919 Speaker 1: and he's building his own Biden barrier, which is the 355 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:34,640 Speaker 1: same thing with that nantikliin plate. But yeah, like, even 356 00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:37,520 Speaker 1: if you don't agree with the existence of laws and lawmakers, right, 357 00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:40,920 Speaker 1: there's this concept that I like a lot called normative anarchism. 358 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:43,000 Speaker 1: I think it's Wolf, the guy who wrote it. But like, 359 00:18:43,760 --> 00:18:46,159 Speaker 1: we can move towards the state doing less cruelty and 360 00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:47,760 Speaker 1: being a little more free, and that is a move 361 00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:50,400 Speaker 1: in the right direction, even if it's not the end goal. 362 00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:52,520 Speaker 1: And I think the border is a place where you 363 00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:55,280 Speaker 1: can really make a difference like that, right, Like some 364 00:18:55,400 --> 00:19:00,240 Speaker 1: small changes in how things are done would reduce used 365 00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:03,840 Speaker 1: as the cruelty to people who have done nothing wrong massively. 366 00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:05,640 Speaker 1: So I think it is an area where even those 367 00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:08,040 Speaker 1: of us who might not be generally inclined to like 368 00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:11,760 Speaker 1: electoral stuff, like you can I think I don't know 369 00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:13,880 Speaker 1: if you can make a distance because, like so many 370 00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:16,320 Speaker 1: people in Milwaukee, you're watching Fox News and are fucking 371 00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:19,679 Speaker 1: completely convinced that the border is just I don't know, 372 00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:23,200 Speaker 1: people with guns trying to smuggle children or whatever. But yeah, 373 00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:25,840 Speaker 1: it's an area where small changes in policy make a 374 00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:28,640 Speaker 1: huge Title forty two right, not even a law, it's 375 00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:31,440 Speaker 1: an executive or it's not even executive, or it's an interpretation. 376 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:35,480 Speaker 1: Uh the war right, most of that ship wasn't built 377 00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:38,040 Speaker 1: by Congress. It was built by executive orders. So like 378 00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:41,640 Speaker 1: that stuff, I think is a place where you can 379 00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:44,959 Speaker 1: you can affect positive change for people. Now. Unfortunate, we've 380 00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:46,560 Speaker 1: got to driant wall and I don't think it's coming 381 00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:49,240 Speaker 1: down anytime soon, But it doesn't mean we shouldn't actively 382 00:19:49,280 --> 00:20:01,520 Speaker 1: try to make things kinder for people coming here now. 383 00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:04,120 Speaker 1: On the direct action side of things, which I think 384 00:20:04,359 --> 00:20:06,600 Speaker 1: more of our audience tends to support, one of the 385 00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:10,520 Speaker 1: most obvious things is just like setting out, as you said, 386 00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:13,320 Speaker 1: like drops of water, food equipment. Now that's kind of 387 00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:16,000 Speaker 1: depending on where you are, can be shall always say 388 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:18,439 Speaker 1: complex from a legal standpoint. Can you talk to that 389 00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:21,440 Speaker 1: a little bit, yes, certainly. So, Like the obvious cases 390 00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:25,159 Speaker 1: are one in Arizona, right, which eventually ended up the 391 00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:29,119 Speaker 1: person was vindicated, but vindicated to your own word, but 392 00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:33,440 Speaker 1: not didn't go to prison exactly. Yeah. Yeah, what he 393 00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:36,320 Speaker 1: was doing was right from the start. But yeah, it 394 00:20:36,359 --> 00:20:38,240 Speaker 1: can be complex, I think, especially if you're in some 395 00:20:38,359 --> 00:20:42,120 Speaker 1: of these states which are like doing culture war, right 396 00:20:42,119 --> 00:20:46,399 Speaker 1: like Arizona in Texas. Yeah, the cruelty is kind of 397 00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:49,800 Speaker 1: the point. So if you are doing something to alleviate 398 00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:51,920 Speaker 1: that cruelty, making an example, if he was very much 399 00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:54,360 Speaker 1: in the interest of those cultural war politicians and judges 400 00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:57,199 Speaker 1: and other people, which is why it's important to do 401 00:20:57,240 --> 00:20:59,840 Speaker 1: it with a mutual aid group, right, Like, these groups 402 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:04,000 Speaker 1: are not just like randos, they're extremely organized. I would 403 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:07,119 Speaker 1: also just caution that, like going out into the desert 404 00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:10,119 Speaker 1: on your own is extremely fucking dangerous. The desert can 405 00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:12,199 Speaker 1: kill you with heat and day. It can kill you 406 00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:14,880 Speaker 1: with the cold nights, sometimes on the same day and night. Right, 407 00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:17,840 Speaker 1: this is a hard place. I'm not saying you shouldn't 408 00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:19,639 Speaker 1: go out there. You should. It's it's an amazing place, 409 00:21:19,720 --> 00:21:21,840 Speaker 1: but you should be careful. You should go with the group. 410 00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:25,560 Speaker 1: So if you're living somewhere along the border, there is 411 00:21:25,600 --> 00:21:27,600 Speaker 1: a group of people who are doing this. They will 412 00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:31,160 Speaker 1: understand what is legal and correct. Like, for instance, if 413 00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:33,479 Speaker 1: you are not a citizen, if you're a Green card holder, 414 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:36,000 Speaker 1: you should probably not go down to the border with 415 00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:38,240 Speaker 1: jugs of water. You should maybe do some fundraising, you 416 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:41,399 Speaker 1: should you should maybe do something else, And that's fine, right, 417 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:43,520 Speaker 1: You're still part of a system which is helping people. 418 00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:48,399 Speaker 1: But yes, there have been some prosecutions, I think in California, 419 00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:51,919 Speaker 1: there haven't been any to my knowledge for a while. Um. 420 00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:56,400 Speaker 1: There is also some interesting tech developments. One a few 421 00:21:56,480 --> 00:21:59,480 Speaker 1: a long time ago now called the Transport of Migrant Tool, 422 00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:02,560 Speaker 1: which was mapping out like what at the time, we 423 00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:04,440 Speaker 1: didn't have the border wall them right, but like water 424 00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:07,520 Speaker 1: cashier's locations of CVP checkpoints and then I guess it 425 00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:12,080 Speaker 1: was using Google Maps to make roots which it was 426 00:22:12,119 --> 00:22:14,480 Speaker 1: created by a faculty member who at the time was 427 00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:17,720 Speaker 1: at the University of California, who faced pretty terrible career 428 00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:20,679 Speaker 1: repercussions for doing it. But there are things like that 429 00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:22,159 Speaker 1: that people can do too, right, which you can do 430 00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:24,520 Speaker 1: from your bedroom, and if that's your preference, if that's 431 00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:27,200 Speaker 1: how you prefer to help. But yeah, I would caution 432 00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:30,919 Speaker 1: about just going out there. Always look for groups, right, 433 00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:33,440 Speaker 1: there are people for whom this is their entire life 434 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:37,560 Speaker 1: of activism. You can also I'm sure, I hope I'm 435 00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:39,200 Speaker 1: not putting a bunch of like work on their plate. 436 00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:44,600 Speaker 1: But Talkedado, see what they suggest, right, Altro Lado the 437 00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:47,960 Speaker 1: other side, that's this legal a group you can just 438 00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:50,080 Speaker 1: call them. I'm sure that they they thinking. They've been 439 00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:52,879 Speaker 1: very helpful to me when I've been when I've needed 440 00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:56,320 Speaker 1: help for people I'm working with. Talk to them about 441 00:22:56,359 --> 00:22:58,840 Speaker 1: what is what is legal and sensible and what's not, 442 00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:01,160 Speaker 1: Whether it's better to give your or give your time 443 00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:03,960 Speaker 1: or what you can do give them the resources available 444 00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:06,360 Speaker 1: to you, I guess. And you can also just show 445 00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:09,120 Speaker 1: kindness to refugees in your community too, that they're probably there. 446 00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:13,040 Speaker 1: Whether or not they're visible is a different question, but 447 00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:15,919 Speaker 1: that's you know, there are places where you can help people. 448 00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:19,400 Speaker 1: Another one I should mention, actually, just for folks who 449 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:22,240 Speaker 1: are inclined to help in a different way I guess, 450 00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:24,920 Speaker 1: is people just feeding people Like I really don't think 451 00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:27,080 Speaker 1: you can ever blame someone for feeding hungry persons a 452 00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:29,560 Speaker 1: food not bombs. Food not bombs are always cool, right, 453 00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:32,480 Speaker 1: if if you want to do kindness without state food 454 00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:35,000 Speaker 1: not bombs, there is one in your area. Look them up, 455 00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:40,400 Speaker 1: um and World Central Kitchen, which is jos Andreas the chef. Yeah, 456 00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:42,760 Speaker 1: he's in Ukraine. Or his guys just got sheld in Ukraine, 457 00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:44,880 Speaker 1: that's right. Yeah, yeah, a number of them got shelved 458 00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:49,960 Speaker 1: in Khakee. I think, um, those people, like I do 459 00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:52,680 Speaker 1: understand that he has some labor issues. Yeah, although I 460 00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:55,600 Speaker 1: think he's he recently like came out and said that 461 00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:58,520 Speaker 1: he had been wrong on that. I'd have to double check. Yeah, 462 00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:01,920 Speaker 1: that's impressive. Like I've said this before, this dude pivoted 463 00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:04,280 Speaker 1: his whole life after seeing what happened in Haiti to 464 00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:06,399 Speaker 1: feeding people who are hungry all over the world. So 465 00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:08,280 Speaker 1: I do believe he's capable of change, and hopefully he 466 00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:10,639 Speaker 1: can change and treat his workers with decency in respect 467 00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:14,320 Speaker 1: as well. But anywhere I am right where there is 468 00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:18,240 Speaker 1: a humanitarian crisis inside the US, outside the US, those 469 00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:20,680 Speaker 1: people are there first, there there before the Red Cross 470 00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:22,720 Speaker 1: and MS. If they don't seem to get tied up 471 00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:27,560 Speaker 1: in the bureaucratic ship. Most large global NGOs do. Like 472 00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:29,880 Speaker 1: I've been in refugee camps where MSF and Red Cross 473 00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:34,080 Speaker 1: outside not doing anything. Yeah, if you anywhere I have 474 00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:37,760 Speaker 1: been where there are large groups of refugees, refugee camps, 475 00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:42,879 Speaker 1: people dealing with violence. The most commonly cursed groups are 476 00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:46,520 Speaker 1: often in g os. Yes, yeah, yeah, there are you know, 477 00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:50,159 Speaker 1: people in white Lands, people in fancy hotel lobbies, you know, 478 00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:53,040 Speaker 1: like that makes me very angry and very sad, But 479 00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:56,159 Speaker 1: I don't see that with w c K, Like I 480 00:24:56,200 --> 00:25:00,720 Speaker 1: have consistently seen them in this is pretty my situations, 481 00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:04,679 Speaker 1: you know, like times that give me bad sleeps, you know, 482 00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:08,240 Speaker 1: and they're always there helping people. So then there are 483 00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:10,119 Speaker 1: also church groups in lots of communities. Like I'm not 484 00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:12,239 Speaker 1: a religious person, but like I really can't fault any 485 00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:14,320 Speaker 1: of these church groups that I've seen coming down from 486 00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:17,480 Speaker 1: San Diego to Tijuana to feed and help people. But 487 00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:21,359 Speaker 1: I would probably stay clear of those giant NGOs with 488 00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:24,680 Speaker 1: your giving. I've just seen them be consider bureaucratic and 489 00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:27,880 Speaker 1: less effective. Yeah, I mean one of the rules. This 490 00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:30,000 Speaker 1: is harder when it's a conflict far from home, and 491 00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:32,240 Speaker 1: you know, you see some news that makes you want 492 00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:34,520 Speaker 1: to help, but you don't have any connections. But if 493 00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:36,520 Speaker 1: you can never talk to people on the ground there, 494 00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:41,200 Speaker 1: it's always best to ask them, like, who's actually doing anything, um, 495 00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:45,159 Speaker 1: because sometimes it is MSF you know, sometimes uh it 496 00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:48,560 Speaker 1: is one of these larger organizations, but oftentimes they'll tell you, like, 497 00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:51,440 Speaker 1: you know, the group when I was in Mosle that 498 00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:53,600 Speaker 1: got the most consistent praise from people who were like 499 00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:56,720 Speaker 1: living there was the Free Burmer Rangers, right, Like there 500 00:25:56,720 --> 00:25:59,320 Speaker 1: were all these massive international organizations, but when it came 501 00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:01,760 Speaker 1: right down to the people who were like running under 502 00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:06,520 Speaker 1: gunfire to pull wounded civilians out where you know those folks, Yeah, yeah, 503 00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:09,240 Speaker 1: those those guys do some do some very brave stuff, definitely, 504 00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:11,760 Speaker 1: And yeah, it is normally you can find people on Facebook, 505 00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:14,080 Speaker 1: Like I've never been in a sort of situation with 506 00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:16,080 Speaker 1: a lot of displaced people what people were not actively 507 00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:19,399 Speaker 1: on Facebook, and you can find people there they just 508 00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:21,000 Speaker 1: just like you just want to have a chat. And again, 509 00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:23,280 Speaker 1: it's nice to have a chat. That's such an important 510 00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:25,720 Speaker 1: point too, because I think that number one people are 511 00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:28,720 Speaker 1: often and it's easier, right, Like everyone has limited time, 512 00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:32,159 Speaker 1: but you kind of leave it to whatever media you 513 00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:35,400 Speaker 1: trust to connect you to people in these desperate circumstances, 514 00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:38,800 Speaker 1: and like people tend to want to connect who are 515 00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:41,080 Speaker 1: dealing with something like that, who are fleeing violence, who 516 00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:44,120 Speaker 1: are and they also are connected, Like they're not separate 517 00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:46,800 Speaker 1: from the rest of the world just because they've had 518 00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:48,960 Speaker 1: to leave their home behind, and they're not they're generally 519 00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:54,680 Speaker 1: not excluded from the information networks that we all existed. Yeah, yeah, 520 00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:56,679 Speaker 1: I think And sometimes that portrayed is like, um, we 521 00:26:56,760 --> 00:26:59,119 Speaker 1: talk about them, not to them far too often the media, 522 00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:00,880 Speaker 1: and that makes me mad, right, Like I see that 523 00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:05,000 Speaker 1: all the time. I see that happening when I'm doing reporting, right, 524 00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:07,399 Speaker 1: I'll see people hanging out on the peripheries in these camps. 525 00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:09,520 Speaker 1: I understand some people are worried about COVID or whatever. 526 00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:13,359 Speaker 1: So of those people, right, like, uh, to be safe 527 00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:16,040 Speaker 1: and be sensible, and yeah, these people want to talk. 528 00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:18,439 Speaker 1: I remember one thing that always sticks out or they 529 00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:20,679 Speaker 1: want the same things that we want. Remember, so in 530 00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:24,640 Speaker 1: migrant caravan, they were moved from the need to quire 531 00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:27,680 Speaker 1: a sports complex to this old nightclub a bit further 532 00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:29,760 Speaker 1: south but further away from the border. Right. It was 533 00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:31,800 Speaker 1: a very weird scene. It was this big nightclub with 534 00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:36,240 Speaker 1: like the mirrors and the dancing poles and the disco balls. 535 00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:38,040 Speaker 1: But it had been like moss balls for like ten years. 536 00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:40,080 Speaker 1: It was all dusty, and they had a special room 537 00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:44,240 Speaker 1: for people who were pregnant, people people who had had children, 538 00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:47,840 Speaker 1: and and the young children themselves, right, they were sort 539 00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:50,840 Speaker 1: of just to keep them safe. And we were going 540 00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:52,000 Speaker 1: there and it was weird because there were still with 541 00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:55,879 Speaker 1: mirrors on the floor. But then I remember these kids, 542 00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:58,200 Speaker 1: you talk to them, right, you know, what do you want? 543 00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:00,119 Speaker 1: And like, first of all, one kid asked me for 544 00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:02,400 Speaker 1: a Teddy bearon It's broke my heart, Like I don't 545 00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:06,880 Speaker 1: know why, it just level me. Uh. And then they 546 00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:09,120 Speaker 1: wanted to like you know that they'd enjoyed the same 547 00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:11,600 Speaker 1: Disney films that kids here had, Right, so my buddy 548 00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:15,200 Speaker 1: managed to acquire a projector. We went into the ceiling, 549 00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:19,159 Speaker 1: rigged up this projector and just set up like Beverly 550 00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:22,000 Speaker 1: Hills Chihuahua playing on one water this nightclub. And these 551 00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:24,919 Speaker 1: kids are like it's Beverly Hills Chihuahua, Like let's go 552 00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:27,399 Speaker 1: like the you know, they were just kids watching a 553 00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:29,399 Speaker 1: film like like like they can be anywhere else, and 554 00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:31,879 Speaker 1: it's really easy to see them as like different or 555 00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:34,600 Speaker 1: week or you know the way they're portraying the media 556 00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:37,040 Speaker 1: is like people without agency and they're not like they've 557 00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:39,920 Speaker 1: taken huge amounts of agency to try and improve their lives. 558 00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:43,200 Speaker 1: And it's also so much focus is on these things 559 00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:46,200 Speaker 1: that aren't you know, medicine, food that are necessary, but 560 00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:50,760 Speaker 1: like having a normal moment where you're like a kid 561 00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:54,920 Speaker 1: watching a cartoon or playing with a toy, it's also necessary. Yeah, Like, 562 00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:59,160 Speaker 1: these children will be scarred by their experiences, right by 563 00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:01,320 Speaker 1: whatever's causing fleet, by the flight itself, and by the 564 00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:04,120 Speaker 1: process of coming to the into the country. But yeah, 565 00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:06,560 Speaker 1: we should do everything we can to protect them from 566 00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:09,800 Speaker 1: those traumatic experiences. And just like I cannot count the 567 00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:12,840 Speaker 1: amount of times I have been like ship housed in 568 00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:14,960 Speaker 1: a game of football by six year olds trying to 569 00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:17,120 Speaker 1: come to the United States, right, Like, so things like that, 570 00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:19,480 Speaker 1: Remember someone donated a couple of football goals, I too, 571 00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:21,680 Speaker 1: come down and set them up. And then yeah, just 572 00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:25,120 Speaker 1: having those moments of normalcy, those moments of fun, like 573 00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:29,400 Speaker 1: little little plastic ukuleles and stuff like, we're very important 574 00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:31,560 Speaker 1: because it let kids be kids. And then that's you know, 575 00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:34,920 Speaker 1: they have every right to do that. Well, James, I 576 00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:37,200 Speaker 1: think that's going to make a soda for us you 577 00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:40,880 Speaker 1: want to throw your plug doubles in before we roll out. Yeah, 578 00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:43,280 Speaker 1: I want to plug, like like I said before, doing 579 00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:46,080 Speaker 1: things to help people outside of networks that let people 580 00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:49,960 Speaker 1: have power over people. To do that first and then yeah, 581 00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:52,360 Speaker 1: you can put my name James Stout into Twitter and 582 00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:55,440 Speaker 1: find me have a Patreon by the same thing right 583 00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:57,720 Speaker 1: about the border a lot. You can see it in 584 00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:00,440 Speaker 1: um if I just plug one popular p O p 585 00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:04,280 Speaker 1: U l A about migrant caravan so you can read 586 00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:07,040 Speaker 1: my writing there. Uh, feel free to message me if 587 00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:08,640 Speaker 1: you want to find any of these groups and you 588 00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:12,040 Speaker 1: can't ye, all right, well that's gonna do it for us. 589 00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:20,040 Speaker 1: Go do something good. It could Happen here as a 590 00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:22,920 Speaker 1: production of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool 591 00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:25,680 Speaker 1: Zone Media, visit our website cool zone media dot com, 592 00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:27,520 Speaker 1: or check us out on the I Heart Radio app, 593 00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:30,920 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can 594 00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:33,640 Speaker 1: find sources for It could Happen here, updated monthly at 595 00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:36,920 Speaker 1: cool zone media dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.