1 00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:07,520 Speaker 1: Oh man, guys, folks, friends and neighbors. In these crazy times, 2 00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:11,440 Speaker 1: I think we all love taking a little bit of 3 00:00:11,440 --> 00:00:14,480 Speaker 1: a break from the headlines and go it into you know, 4 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:20,079 Speaker 1: conspiracies of yesteryear, hidden history, paranormal stuff, things like that, 5 00:00:20,280 --> 00:00:23,840 Speaker 1: right Krakatoa, Yeah, yeah, stuff that. 6 00:00:23,880 --> 00:00:32,080 Speaker 2: Can't hurt of Oh my bad creatine. But agree like 7 00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:35,600 Speaker 2: stuff that can't hurt us right now, right, It's it's mysterious. 8 00:00:35,800 --> 00:00:38,800 Speaker 2: There's a mystery to be solved, but not going to 9 00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:41,760 Speaker 2: affect us as we walk around drinking all this coffee. 10 00:00:41,920 --> 00:00:42,559 Speaker 2: It's true. 11 00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:46,639 Speaker 1: We yes, I do drink a lot of coffee too. 12 00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:48,680 Speaker 2: Finally finished, I need more. 13 00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:52,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's happening as soon as we roll the tape 14 00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:55,040 Speaker 1: on what really happened to the Lost Colony of Roanoke? 15 00:00:56,280 --> 00:01:00,720 Speaker 3: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies, history is 16 00:01:00,800 --> 00:01:05,120 Speaker 3: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 17 00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:08,200 Speaker 3: learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A 18 00:01:08,280 --> 00:01:11,319 Speaker 3: production of iHeart Radios How Stuff Works. 19 00:01:20,360 --> 00:01:21,959 Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back to the show. 20 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:24,000 Speaker 1: My name is Matt, they call me Ben, and we 21 00:01:24,040 --> 00:01:27,240 Speaker 1: are joined as always with our super producer Paul, Mission 22 00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:31,199 Speaker 1: Control Deck, and most importantly, you are you you are here, 23 00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:33,920 Speaker 1: and that makes this stuff. They don't want you to 24 00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:37,600 Speaker 1: know this. This is a weird one. We've been doing 25 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:40,760 Speaker 1: some hidden history recently, Matt. 26 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:43,560 Speaker 2: Yes, we have, and it's some of our favorite topics 27 00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:46,120 Speaker 2: that we ever cover on the show. I think, personally 28 00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:48,080 Speaker 2: for the two of us, am I speaking for you 29 00:01:48,160 --> 00:01:50,480 Speaker 2: too much here? I feel like I feel like when 30 00:01:50,480 --> 00:01:55,440 Speaker 2: we hit a historical mystery like this, I can see 31 00:01:55,480 --> 00:01:59,080 Speaker 2: your gears turning and I can feel mine turning. And uh, 32 00:01:59,640 --> 00:02:02,640 Speaker 2: this one is certainly no exception. This is a topic 33 00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:05,280 Speaker 2: that I'm really surprised we haven't covered before in the past. 34 00:02:05,440 --> 00:02:08,839 Speaker 1: I was surprised too. And it's funny because on our 35 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:12,880 Speaker 1: Facebook page, here's where it gets crazy. Today's topic was 36 00:02:12,919 --> 00:02:15,640 Speaker 1: actually a subject of conversation. Did you see that? 37 00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:17,640 Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, No, I didn't even look. 38 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:22,239 Speaker 1: Yes, here's where it gets crazy our Facebook community page. Hello, 39 00:02:22,440 --> 00:02:27,760 Speaker 1: Maddie B. Maddie recently said, have they meaning us? Matt 40 00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:31,920 Speaker 1: done a good episode about Roanoke and I like that. 41 00:02:32,440 --> 00:02:35,680 Speaker 1: Maddie said, good, good, Yes, you qualify a. 42 00:02:35,639 --> 00:02:38,520 Speaker 2: Good one about that yet well, and then John H 43 00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:40,720 Speaker 2: came through and said, like Croatian Roanoke. 44 00:02:42,440 --> 00:02:45,680 Speaker 1: So so I responded there and said we have not, 45 00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:48,600 Speaker 1: but stay tuned for an upcoming episode. Hopefully it will 46 00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:51,880 Speaker 1: be a good one. And this is that episode. We 47 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:54,800 Speaker 1: were working on it. We didn't want to spoil the surprise. 48 00:02:54,919 --> 00:02:57,440 Speaker 1: We're not sure when this comes out, but we are 49 00:02:57,600 --> 00:03:03,160 Speaker 1: finally doing an episode investigate the strange story of the 50 00:03:03,240 --> 00:03:08,400 Speaker 1: Lost Colony of Roanoke. So everybody growing up in the US, 51 00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:12,760 Speaker 1: here's some version of this story, typically in middle school, right. Yes, 52 00:03:12,919 --> 00:03:15,919 Speaker 1: it's like a middle school story that's spooky enough to 53 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:18,040 Speaker 1: get the attention of even the class clown. 54 00:03:18,360 --> 00:03:21,720 Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, and it's as you're learning your first learning 55 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:27,240 Speaker 2: about the British colonies within you know, in North America, 56 00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:29,359 Speaker 2: and you start learning about a lot of these and 57 00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:33,320 Speaker 2: you're going through you know, it's interesting stuff. It really is. 58 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:37,640 Speaker 2: When you think about the hardships, the genocide. There's like 59 00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:39,840 Speaker 2: all kinds of crazy stuff that was happening at the time. 60 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:44,840 Speaker 2: But the mystery really hits when you start talking about Roanoke. 61 00:03:45,440 --> 00:03:49,080 Speaker 1: Yes, a story that, depending on who you ask, has 62 00:03:49,240 --> 00:03:54,040 Speaker 1: not been resolved even in these our modern days. So 63 00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:59,720 Speaker 1: here are the facts. This tale really begins in fifteen 64 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:03,680 Speaker 1: when a gentleman named Sir Walter Raleigh makes a deal 65 00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:08,400 Speaker 1: with Queen Elizabeth, the first to establish an English colony 66 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:11,480 Speaker 1: in you know, in North America. 67 00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:14,400 Speaker 2: Right, And he was given a timeframe. It wasn't like 68 00:04:14,520 --> 00:04:16,920 Speaker 2: just okay, you have carte blanche, go out there and 69 00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:20,120 Speaker 2: just make a colony. He was given ten years to 70 00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:24,279 Speaker 2: do it. And the whole concept here was that whatever 71 00:04:24,400 --> 00:04:27,679 Speaker 2: is recovered, whatever's found once, you know, as this colony 72 00:04:27,760 --> 00:04:32,080 Speaker 2: is being established, would be shared between Sir Walter and 73 00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:34,880 Speaker 2: his people as well as it would be shared with 74 00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:37,040 Speaker 2: him and the Crown essentially. 75 00:04:37,240 --> 00:04:42,280 Speaker 1: And yeah, make no mistake, he's kind of working on commission. 76 00:04:42,200 --> 00:04:44,080 Speaker 2: Yeah right, because that's exactly what it is. 77 00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:48,800 Speaker 1: If they don't find anything, then all of that money, time, 78 00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:51,800 Speaker 1: all his resources will have been for not And that 79 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:57,200 Speaker 1: would sound like a very risky endeavor unless we consider 80 00:04:57,480 --> 00:05:02,560 Speaker 1: the other ulterior motive for the establishment of colonies in 81 00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:05,720 Speaker 1: this part of the world, which was, of course it 82 00:05:05,760 --> 00:05:07,039 Speaker 1: was a military application. 83 00:05:07,279 --> 00:05:12,360 Speaker 2: There we go, because England and Great Britain they were 84 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:16,440 Speaker 2: fighting Spain as they were, you know, fighting other world 85 00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:18,800 Speaker 2: powers a lot during those times. 86 00:05:19,480 --> 00:05:23,839 Speaker 1: And this would give this would give sort of a beachhead, 87 00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:28,320 Speaker 1: sort of a home away from home for English military 88 00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:32,920 Speaker 1: and naval operations to be based at and Raleigh himself 89 00:05:32,960 --> 00:05:37,600 Speaker 1: did not personally travel across the Atlantic to establish the colony. 90 00:05:37,520 --> 00:05:39,680 Speaker 2: As we know, that would be a that is a 91 00:05:39,720 --> 00:05:40,839 Speaker 2: treacherous journey. 92 00:05:40,920 --> 00:05:43,120 Speaker 1: Oh yes, Yeah. And one of the myths that we 93 00:05:43,200 --> 00:05:46,039 Speaker 1: have to bust, a misperception that a lot of people 94 00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:51,240 Speaker 1: share about the so called lost Colony of Roanoke is 95 00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:56,760 Speaker 1: the idea that these people just landed there randomly, came 96 00:05:56,800 --> 00:06:00,520 Speaker 1: out of nowhere, made some bad decisions, and disappeared. Yeah, 97 00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:03,480 Speaker 1: here's what happens. There's a lot that leads up to this. 98 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:10,680 Speaker 1: There is a initial exploratory expedition. They sail in fifteen 99 00:06:10,760 --> 00:06:14,640 Speaker 1: eighty four. They're not attempting to establish a permanent base 100 00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:19,000 Speaker 1: of operations. They're not attempting to start a colony with families. 101 00:06:19,160 --> 00:06:23,000 Speaker 1: These are due who are kind of scouting out a 102 00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:24,480 Speaker 1: suitable location. 103 00:06:24,640 --> 00:06:28,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, they're literally location scouts. And that's what this whole 104 00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:30,680 Speaker 2: first expedition was about. 105 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:35,320 Speaker 1: And they were successful. They found a small island they 106 00:06:35,440 --> 00:06:39,680 Speaker 1: decided to call it Roanoke. It's located inside what are 107 00:06:39,720 --> 00:06:42,279 Speaker 1: known as the Outer Banks. The Outer Banks are a 108 00:06:42,279 --> 00:06:47,120 Speaker 1: long stream of these narrow islands that shelter half the 109 00:06:47,160 --> 00:06:50,400 Speaker 1: coast of North Carolina, or what we call North Carolina today. 110 00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:53,320 Speaker 2: If you look at a map from above, it looks 111 00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:56,760 Speaker 2: as though it would just be the entire land mass 112 00:06:56,920 --> 00:07:00,480 Speaker 2: edge basically, and that got flooded. That's what it looks 113 00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:02,400 Speaker 2: like from a map. 114 00:07:03,080 --> 00:07:08,520 Speaker 1: And Roanoke itself is pretty attractive to these dudes because 115 00:07:08,560 --> 00:07:13,760 Speaker 1: as fertile soil, it has easily defensible positions. It's it's 116 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:20,040 Speaker 1: well wooded, there's also wildlife. The geography of the island 117 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:23,840 Speaker 1: is such that ships can anchor there safely, which is 118 00:07:23,840 --> 00:07:27,040 Speaker 1: a huge deal, and be easily protected. 119 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:32,800 Speaker 2: But as was a common situation back in those times, 120 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:38,200 Speaker 2: as settlers from Eastern Lands came over to this area, 121 00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:44,240 Speaker 2: these guys started making all kinds of enemies, especially with 122 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:48,120 Speaker 2: the indigenous peoples there. They charged members of one of 123 00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:51,880 Speaker 2: the local tribes or one of the communities there, they 124 00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:56,840 Speaker 2: charged them with theft, and they beheaded the chief of 125 00:07:56,880 --> 00:07:59,600 Speaker 2: one of these groups, and they burned a village to 126 00:07:59,640 --> 00:08:04,720 Speaker 2: the ground. And that's, you know, not not an initial 127 00:08:04,760 --> 00:08:06,560 Speaker 2: way you make friends, right. 128 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:09,320 Speaker 1: Not a good look. No, And keep in mind they 129 00:08:09,320 --> 00:08:13,240 Speaker 1: were doing this while they were also becoming increasingly reliant 130 00:08:13,400 --> 00:08:18,240 Speaker 1: on the native population for food, yeah, so that's a 131 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:24,200 Speaker 1: terrible first impression. Sir Francis Drake happened to be pirating 132 00:08:24,760 --> 00:08:31,080 Speaker 1: along the area and he found this exploratory group and 133 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:33,160 Speaker 1: he says, you know what, I'll give you a lift 134 00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:35,920 Speaker 1: back to England. So that is the end of that 135 00:08:35,960 --> 00:08:39,800 Speaker 1: first exploratory thing. They say we found The first expedition 136 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:44,400 Speaker 1: says we found a good place and the geography is fine. 137 00:08:44,760 --> 00:08:47,920 Speaker 1: And then you know, the British say well, how's the neighborhood, 138 00:08:47,920 --> 00:08:50,560 Speaker 1: and they go, it's a little intense. Not gonna lie, 139 00:08:50,960 --> 00:08:51,840 Speaker 1: a little intense. 140 00:08:52,200 --> 00:08:55,959 Speaker 2: You know, we had a hand in the tensions for sure. 141 00:08:56,160 --> 00:08:59,920 Speaker 1: And ahead and ahead and the tensions. So what they 142 00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:02,839 Speaker 1: didn't know, you know, the phrase ships in the night right, 143 00:09:02,880 --> 00:09:04,920 Speaker 1: we've all heard that in English. What they didn't know 144 00:09:05,040 --> 00:09:07,120 Speaker 1: is that they were in a literal ships in the 145 00:09:07,200 --> 00:09:12,280 Speaker 1: night situation. Because while Drake is sailing back to Europe 146 00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:15,480 Speaker 1: with that first crew, with that first crew, there is 147 00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:19,920 Speaker 1: a second ship that is sailing to what they called 148 00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:22,720 Speaker 1: the New World. These two ships pass one another in 149 00:09:22,760 --> 00:09:27,600 Speaker 1: the Atlantic. The new group on that second ship, it's 150 00:09:27,679 --> 00:09:33,160 Speaker 1: about one hundred men, and they they find this abandoned settlement. 151 00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:36,720 Speaker 1: They live on the island for ten months, and at 152 00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:38,880 Speaker 1: the end of the ten months, most of them returned 153 00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:41,680 Speaker 1: to England, but they left a small garrison and probably 154 00:09:41,679 --> 00:09:44,760 Speaker 1: about fifteen men on Rowano to keep the seat warm, 155 00:09:44,920 --> 00:09:45,520 Speaker 1: you know what I mean. 156 00:09:45,679 --> 00:09:49,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, and to essentially, I guess, as a as 157 00:09:49,800 --> 00:09:53,600 Speaker 2: a last defense of the area that they're currently controlling 158 00:09:53,800 --> 00:09:59,000 Speaker 2: right now. This next group of fellows who ended up 159 00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:02,720 Speaker 2: showing up on the island, they had no idea just 160 00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:05,320 Speaker 2: how bad of a situation they were entering as far 161 00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:09,000 Speaker 2: as you know, diplomatic relations with the indigenous peoples were going. 162 00:10:09,520 --> 00:10:16,360 Speaker 2: So they, you know, unfortunately, also continued being uh pills. 163 00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:18,760 Speaker 1: Let's say, Yeah, there were real pills. 164 00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:23,280 Speaker 2: They're being real pills, real jerks themselves. And it should 165 00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:27,439 Speaker 2: come as no surprise that these guys, the second group 166 00:10:27,480 --> 00:10:31,959 Speaker 2: of people that went over to Roanoke, disappeared. They were 167 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:33,720 Speaker 2: never seen or heard from again. 168 00:10:35,160 --> 00:10:39,319 Speaker 1: Fast forward fifteen eighty seven, around one hundred and seventeen 169 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:41,880 Speaker 1: one and fifteen one hundred and seventeen men, women and 170 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:46,480 Speaker 1: children arrive on the third expedition. They settle on Roanoke 171 00:10:46,559 --> 00:10:51,360 Speaker 1: Island and what would later be called North Carolina. They 172 00:10:51,480 --> 00:10:55,760 Speaker 1: found the skeletal remains of one of the fifteen soldiers 173 00:10:55,840 --> 00:11:00,959 Speaker 1: from the earlier expedition, and that's it. We don't know 174 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:06,200 Speaker 1: what happened to the other fourteen. This third expedition had 175 00:11:06,240 --> 00:11:08,800 Speaker 1: the best shot of the three. It was larger in 176 00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:11,920 Speaker 1: terms of population and in terms of supplies, and they 177 00:11:11,920 --> 00:11:15,720 Speaker 1: have better supplies too. They were led by a Roanoke veteran, 178 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:20,360 Speaker 1: a cartographer and artist named John White. This is also 179 00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:25,199 Speaker 1: the first group to include substantial amount of women and children, so. 180 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:29,000 Speaker 2: A real chance of settling down and expanding the population 181 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:30,400 Speaker 2: right reproducing. 182 00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:36,000 Speaker 1: And they attempted to reconcile with the native communities. They 183 00:11:36,040 --> 00:11:39,000 Speaker 1: had mixed results because there was just too much bad blood. 184 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:43,439 Speaker 1: They managed to repair relations with one nearby tribe, Powatans 185 00:11:43,520 --> 00:11:48,680 Speaker 1: living on nearby Croatan Island, but the other tribes in 186 00:11:48,679 --> 00:11:52,480 Speaker 1: the area saot a hostile aloof distance. We hear you 187 00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:54,480 Speaker 1: burn villages, You know what I mean? 188 00:11:54,679 --> 00:11:55,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. 189 00:11:55,920 --> 00:11:59,840 Speaker 1: The colonists were vastly outnumbered despite the size of their call, 190 00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:04,520 Speaker 1: and they were terrified that the next small skirmish with 191 00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:08,280 Speaker 1: any member of the native population could escalate, It could 192 00:12:08,280 --> 00:12:11,480 Speaker 1: grow into an all out battle, and that battle would 193 00:12:11,559 --> 00:12:14,200 Speaker 1: inevitably just based on the numbers be a massacre. 194 00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:18,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, so you know, what does he do. Let's go 195 00:12:18,520 --> 00:12:22,600 Speaker 2: ask the guy who was in charge here at least officially, 196 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:26,720 Speaker 2: Sir Walter Raleigh. So he gets in a ship and 197 00:12:26,760 --> 00:12:29,480 Speaker 2: heads back to England to talk to Raleigh in person, 198 00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:32,120 Speaker 2: because you know, if you have that kind of meeting 199 00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:35,400 Speaker 2: in person, you could maybe convey a little better the 200 00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:39,920 Speaker 2: fears and the stakes that are involved. Rather than sending 201 00:12:39,920 --> 00:12:42,160 Speaker 2: a message somehow across the sea. 202 00:12:42,280 --> 00:12:46,359 Speaker 1: You could also at this time avoid errors in communication. 203 00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:49,840 Speaker 2: Yes, right, that would be. That's a huge factor here. 204 00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:53,600 Speaker 1: So as weird as it sounds nowadays to say the 205 00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:57,040 Speaker 1: guys sailed back across the Atlantic to just get in 206 00:12:57,080 --> 00:12:59,200 Speaker 1: a room with Sir Walter Raleigh and talk to him 207 00:12:59,640 --> 00:13:02,080 Speaker 1: at that time, we have to remember being able to 208 00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:05,840 Speaker 1: have that conversation in instantly field answers to questions, because 209 00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:07,920 Speaker 1: of course they're going to be follow up questions. Yeah, 210 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:10,200 Speaker 1: that's probably the most efficient thing to do. 211 00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:18,760 Speaker 2: It is almost inconceivable at this point with communication, you know, 212 00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:22,079 Speaker 2: in the past hundreds of years being so immediate. 213 00:13:22,200 --> 00:13:28,520 Speaker 1: Right, And he had to plan ahead. So John White said, look, 214 00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:33,000 Speaker 1: we know things are not terrible yet, but they're not 215 00:13:33,679 --> 00:13:39,520 Speaker 1: in the best position. You might have to relocate to 216 00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:46,920 Speaker 1: survive while I'm gone, while I'm gaining favor and organizing 217 00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:52,320 Speaker 1: a rescue mission. Essentially, so let's figure out symbols that 218 00:13:52,360 --> 00:13:54,640 Speaker 1: we will leave, signs so that we will return, and 219 00:13:54,679 --> 00:13:59,320 Speaker 1: if anything goes wrong, it'll be something that just we 220 00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:02,120 Speaker 1: call in a will understand. He said, if you do 221 00:14:02,280 --> 00:14:05,640 Speaker 1: move in my absence, carve your destination on this tree. 222 00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:08,520 Speaker 1: You point out a specific tree, and if you're in trouble, 223 00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:13,280 Speaker 1: also carve a Maltese cross. So he gets to England. 224 00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:18,360 Speaker 1: He's got a good plan, and he finds that surprise, surprise, 225 00:14:19,160 --> 00:14:25,160 Speaker 1: time and distance have made the Empire's goals a little bit, 226 00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:29,360 Speaker 1: you know, they they've diverged. The Empire and the colonies 227 00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:32,000 Speaker 1: have different goals. Now. The people in the colonies trying 228 00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:35,400 Speaker 1: to survive, yes, people in the Empire try to win 229 00:14:35,480 --> 00:14:37,400 Speaker 1: this war with Spain, and. 230 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:42,080 Speaker 2: So in the strategic position of you know, potentially Roanoak 231 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:44,520 Speaker 2: isn't a high priority anymore. 232 00:14:44,760 --> 00:14:47,920 Speaker 1: Right, So John White shows up and says, hey, we 233 00:14:47,960 --> 00:14:51,680 Speaker 1: need help and across the ocean and they say, all right, 234 00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:54,880 Speaker 1: well we're we're really we're doing this Spain thing. Now, 235 00:14:55,360 --> 00:14:58,120 Speaker 1: that's what this episode of our Our Empire is about 236 00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:02,400 Speaker 1: we're spent. You're very much ab story right now. And 237 00:15:03,880 --> 00:15:09,840 Speaker 1: this means that he doesn't return to Roanoke for three years. Yeah, 238 00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:13,320 Speaker 1: three years, it's a long pause. But when he does 239 00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:17,360 Speaker 1: return to Roanoke, he's got armed soldiers, he's got the 240 00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:21,920 Speaker 1: supplies they need. He is ready. The cavalry, as they say, 241 00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:23,360 Speaker 1: has arrived. 242 00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:28,120 Speaker 2: Yes late, but it's arriving. And we'll tell you what 243 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:30,400 Speaker 2: happened right after a word from our sponsor. 244 00:15:38,120 --> 00:15:42,600 Speaker 1: So let's paint the picture. Let's speculate a little bit 245 00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:49,320 Speaker 1: about what John White encountered when he disembarked. Imagine how 246 00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:51,760 Speaker 1: strange it must have been for him to return to 247 00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:57,320 Speaker 1: the settlement. His wife, is child, his son in law, 248 00:15:57,480 --> 00:16:01,720 Speaker 1: his grandchild had all lived there and it's been three years. 249 00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:05,239 Speaker 1: But the air is eerily quiet. There are no sounds 250 00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:09,440 Speaker 1: of you know, someone clanging iron on a. 251 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:12,640 Speaker 2: Forge, wood being chopped somewhere in the distance. 252 00:16:13,080 --> 00:16:16,000 Speaker 1: There's none of that, just the sounds of nature, the 253 00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:20,480 Speaker 1: ocean and the empty wind. The houses were gone, they 254 00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:23,400 Speaker 1: had been taken down. There was one thing he noticed, 255 00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:27,320 Speaker 1: which was a roughly built fort surrounding the former settlement. 256 00:16:28,120 --> 00:16:31,040 Speaker 1: And when we say, roughly built. It looked like it 257 00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:33,760 Speaker 1: had been made in a hurry, Yeah, as a reaction 258 00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:41,200 Speaker 1: to something. And then on a post he found one 259 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:43,280 Speaker 1: of two clues what was it? 260 00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:49,560 Speaker 2: They were carvings, first the word crow a toin so 261 00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:54,760 Speaker 2: croa t a n. And then on another tree he 262 00:16:54,840 --> 00:16:59,320 Speaker 2: found the carving croo and it was not in the 263 00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:02,400 Speaker 2: places where he was expecting it to be, right. 264 00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:06,159 Speaker 1: I believe. So the cannons and boats were supposed to 265 00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:10,160 Speaker 1: be at the bay nearby, they were gone. White had 266 00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:15,520 Speaker 1: buried a couple of chests earlier with drawings, maps, and books. 267 00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:18,159 Speaker 1: He found these, but they were torn apart. They had 268 00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:21,160 Speaker 1: been ruined at some point over the past three years 269 00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:25,120 Speaker 1: by the weather. He found no bones, he found no corpses, 270 00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:28,560 Speaker 1: found no evidence, one way or another to show what 271 00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:34,639 Speaker 1: had happened to the colonists, other than of course that fortress, 272 00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:38,680 Speaker 1: the fort they had built around themselves. So it appears 273 00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:43,200 Speaker 1: that sometime between fifteen eighty seven and fifteen ninety one 274 00:17:43,240 --> 00:17:48,679 Speaker 1: hundred and seventeen souls of the Roanoke Colony had simply disappeared. 275 00:17:50,080 --> 00:17:53,880 Speaker 2: And our big question today is what happened to them? 276 00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:59,639 Speaker 1: Here's where it gets crazy. So when we explored this 277 00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:03,520 Speaker 1: top we find that there are some people who are 278 00:18:03,560 --> 00:18:08,080 Speaker 1: convinced it's been solved. The problem is that not everybody agrees. 279 00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:08,920 Speaker 2: Yes. 280 00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:13,359 Speaker 1: That's why technically this still remains a mystery today with 281 00:18:13,560 --> 00:18:18,240 Speaker 1: no shortage of what we might call conspiracy theories from 282 00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:21,960 Speaker 1: in your earlier age, from before the term conspiracy theory existed. 283 00:18:23,080 --> 00:18:25,760 Speaker 1: So if we ask ourselves what could have happened, we 284 00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:30,280 Speaker 1: have to note it looks like they didn't leave under duress. 285 00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:35,679 Speaker 2: Yeah, but the fortress thing alone would lead you to 286 00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:39,960 Speaker 2: believe that they were trying to protect themselves somehow and quickly. Right. 287 00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:43,679 Speaker 2: But because you don't have the evidence of bones or 288 00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:47,160 Speaker 2: you know, anything that would show like a body somewhere, 289 00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:52,040 Speaker 2: doesn't show that they were leaving under someone either forcing 290 00:18:52,080 --> 00:18:54,680 Speaker 2: them with physical action, right. 291 00:18:54,760 --> 00:18:58,840 Speaker 1: Or I would say, equally importantly, the Maltese cross is nice. 292 00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:02,080 Speaker 1: That was supposed to be as a signal of trouble. 293 00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:06,560 Speaker 1: And now we have to ask ourselves we've been thrown 294 00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:09,600 Speaker 1: around the words. So they carved out the word croatoin, right, 295 00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:12,720 Speaker 1: Sometimes I say crootin, but I think it's just a 296 00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:16,120 Speaker 1: mnemonic plot twist that's happened to me along the way 297 00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:17,080 Speaker 1: when I was learning this. 298 00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:23,080 Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure. I'm pretty sure my brain read Croatin. 299 00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:25,920 Speaker 2: Earlier when we were discussing the Here's where it gets 300 00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:31,960 Speaker 2: Crazy thing, it saw Croatan, but it read Croatian. So 301 00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:36,280 Speaker 2: apologies for that. Everybody has been like raising their fists 302 00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:37,680 Speaker 2: in the air this entire episode. 303 00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:41,320 Speaker 1: I'm aware now this is plot twisted. There's going to 304 00:19:41,359 --> 00:19:43,479 Speaker 1: be a second Here's where it gets crazy, and it's 305 00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:46,359 Speaker 1: all about how they went to Croatia. Yeah, I think 306 00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:51,080 Speaker 1: about it. People, No, So the here here's what you 307 00:19:51,119 --> 00:19:56,600 Speaker 1: need to know. So Croaton is a barrier island, another 308 00:19:56,640 --> 00:19:59,320 Speaker 1: island on these outer banks that you described earlier, Matt. 309 00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:04,600 Speaker 1: Now it's called Hatteras Island. It's about thirty five miles 310 00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:09,280 Speaker 1: south of Roanoke, the thirty five nautical miles. It's called 311 00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:15,639 Speaker 1: Croton because it's home of the Crootan people, the native community, 312 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:20,640 Speaker 1: and they this is important, they were friendly to English colonists. 313 00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:26,960 Speaker 1: So based on that, it seems logical to say if 314 00:20:27,080 --> 00:20:30,520 Speaker 1: the colonists had run out of food on Roanoke, or 315 00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:34,040 Speaker 1: if there had been some maybe a problem with sanitation 316 00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:37,560 Speaker 1: or disease or something that made it unlivable, it would 317 00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:41,680 Speaker 1: make sense for them to go to the friendly communities, right, 318 00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:47,080 Speaker 1: And John White knew that. That's the thing about history. 319 00:20:47,119 --> 00:20:50,560 Speaker 1: Every time we relate these tales and these narratives, we 320 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:54,960 Speaker 1: have to remember that people born in living hundreds and 321 00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:58,679 Speaker 1: hundreds of years ago were just as intelligent as the 322 00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:02,480 Speaker 1: people you meet today. That is both a compliment and 323 00:21:02,520 --> 00:21:05,160 Speaker 1: a criticism, you know what I mean. They weren't dumb, 324 00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:06,480 Speaker 1: They just had different tools. 325 00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:10,040 Speaker 2: So and we're not dumb either, we just have different tools. 326 00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:12,879 Speaker 1: Juries up for debate, you know. I think it's up 327 00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:18,119 Speaker 1: to future historians. But John White. I say all that 328 00:21:18,119 --> 00:21:20,480 Speaker 1: about intelligence because John White and his crew and the 329 00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:24,240 Speaker 1: captain he had hired understood that the next logical move 330 00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:26,840 Speaker 1: would be to go to the other islands. Yet they 331 00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:30,840 Speaker 1: never searched that island. John White never searched that island, 332 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:32,959 Speaker 1: even though his family had disappeared. 333 00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:38,080 Speaker 2: And for minor issues. Right, the weather was a factor 334 00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:40,760 Speaker 2: preventing them from going over to that island. And they 335 00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:43,280 Speaker 2: also lost an anchor at some point in one of 336 00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:46,520 Speaker 2: their ships, and it made it, you know, at least 337 00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:50,680 Speaker 2: in their minds and in reality, almost impossible to safely 338 00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:54,600 Speaker 2: get over there because they've got all these barrier islands 339 00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:58,600 Speaker 2: across this whole section. You've got pieces of land that 340 00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:00,640 Speaker 2: are up high enough to where or if you don't 341 00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:02,320 Speaker 2: know where those islands are, you're going to run your 342 00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:06,359 Speaker 2: ship on something, probably capsize, if you know, not completely 343 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:07,320 Speaker 2: destroy your ship. 344 00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:09,920 Speaker 1: And you have to be able to land or send 345 00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:14,320 Speaker 1: You have to be able to keep chiefly harbor. Yeah, 346 00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:19,280 Speaker 1: even to send out a launch boat. So John White 347 00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:23,120 Speaker 1: is not able to investigate, and he hasked to return 348 00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:27,639 Speaker 1: to England. There are later expeditions that claim to search 349 00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:33,120 Speaker 1: for the lost colony. They are either incredibly unsuccessful, they 350 00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:38,840 Speaker 1: profoundly fail, or they are undertaken with an ulterior motive. 351 00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:41,080 Speaker 1: There were people who said they were searching for this 352 00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:45,240 Speaker 1: lost colony, but really they were conducting acts of piracy, 353 00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:48,400 Speaker 1: or they were trying to, you know, move some product 354 00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:52,040 Speaker 1: of one sort or another. In fact, it wasn't until 355 00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:55,480 Speaker 1: the Jamestown Colony was established way later in sixteen oh 356 00:22:55,520 --> 00:23:01,359 Speaker 1: seven that there were actual, semi successful, good searches to 357 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:07,560 Speaker 1: discover the fate of the lost colonists in Roanoke. Here's 358 00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:10,440 Speaker 1: the other thing. Now, not only we were talking about 359 00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:16,760 Speaker 1: the colonists, right, and the tragedy, the unanswered questions that 360 00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:19,040 Speaker 1: are left in the wake of their disappearance. But we 361 00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:23,000 Speaker 1: have to remember the colony itself disappeared. 362 00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:28,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, the buildings, Like how crazy is that the buildings 363 00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:31,479 Speaker 2: were taken down, So you know, if you're heading if 364 00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:33,639 Speaker 2: you were to head out to that island, even if 365 00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:36,200 Speaker 2: you're John White and you know essentially where everything is, 366 00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:40,360 Speaker 2: the evidence is gone save for that fortress, right. 367 00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:44,879 Speaker 1: And White and other members of the leadership of the 368 00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:48,560 Speaker 1: colony were not super great at keeping records. Oh yeah, 369 00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:50,840 Speaker 1: and there's there are a couple of reasons for this, 370 00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:54,320 Speaker 1: so we'll get into in a moment. But they were 371 00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:57,320 Speaker 1: so bad at keeping records that people never knew the 372 00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:02,480 Speaker 1: exact location or whereabouts of that colony. There were numerous 373 00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:06,760 Speaker 1: digs in the intervening centuries that have failed to produce 374 00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:11,760 Speaker 1: evidence of the lost colony. Someone discovered remnants of that 375 00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:16,240 Speaker 1: settlement we mentioned from fifteen eighty five, but there's no 376 00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:20,119 Speaker 1: evidence of the lost colony that's ever been found. And 377 00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:22,680 Speaker 1: one of the big problems is with this is that 378 00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:31,040 Speaker 1: the primary sources, the contemporaneous accounts, contradict one another. They 379 00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:35,200 Speaker 1: don't agree. So according to John White, the second settlement, 380 00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:40,560 Speaker 1: the one that's lost, should have been located near the 381 00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:44,720 Speaker 1: north end of the island, but there was an affidavit 382 00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:48,120 Speaker 1: from a Spanish sailor in fifteen eighty nine that said 383 00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:51,159 Speaker 1: the settlement was actually near the center of the island, 384 00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:53,040 Speaker 1: where they had stationed some cannons. 385 00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:55,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, and it would make sense for there to be 386 00:24:56,119 --> 00:25:03,120 Speaker 2: small you know, small not in camp cons but basically 387 00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:07,720 Speaker 2: cells of the settlement would be, you know, in various 388 00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:09,919 Speaker 2: places depending on what you're going to use them for. 389 00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:11,520 Speaker 2: If you're going to be fishing, you're going to have 390 00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:14,959 Speaker 2: some stuff that's closer to the water. If you're you know, 391 00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:17,479 Speaker 2: protecting something, it would make sense to put it towards 392 00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:21,680 Speaker 2: the center of the island. That all makes sense. The 393 00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:25,639 Speaker 2: problem is if you're going to do an historic dig, 394 00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:28,280 Speaker 2: you kind of have to do the whole island then 395 00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:31,119 Speaker 2: at this point to really like figure it out. So 396 00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:33,360 Speaker 2: there were a couple other things that were found. There 397 00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:36,199 Speaker 2: was an old well and one small cannon that was 398 00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:39,560 Speaker 2: found near the bay area, not San Francisco in this case, 399 00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:43,080 Speaker 2: the Roanoke Bay area, and that was basically in support 400 00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:47,439 Speaker 2: of the deposition that was given by that Spanish salor. 401 00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:51,159 Speaker 2: But then some some historians now believe that the what 402 00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:56,080 Speaker 2: was it The fifteen eighty seven settlement actually is underwater. 403 00:25:56,600 --> 00:26:05,320 Speaker 1: Right right, that centuries of have submerged the settlement, and 404 00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:07,560 Speaker 1: that we should be looking under the waves for it 405 00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:11,320 Speaker 1: instead of under the ground. Ultimately, right now, no one 406 00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:14,280 Speaker 1: is sure what happened to the Roanoke colonists. Through again, 407 00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:18,200 Speaker 1: no one agrees on their theory about what happens. When 408 00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:21,040 Speaker 1: it comes to the story of the lost colony. We 409 00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:23,480 Speaker 1: have a lot of theories, we just don't have a 410 00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:27,760 Speaker 1: ton of hard evidence. So let's just quickly go to 411 00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:33,520 Speaker 1: the initial theory. What did Governor John White think? So 412 00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:36,800 Speaker 1: he is the first person who officially discovered the colonists 413 00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:40,160 Speaker 1: have disappeared. He reports everything he sees in a letter. 414 00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:42,679 Speaker 1: He says, there are no bones like those that they 415 00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:45,080 Speaker 1: found in the fifteen eighty five colony where they found 416 00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:48,480 Speaker 1: the remnants of that one soldier. And Governor White said, 417 00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:51,280 Speaker 1: the houses have been taken down. They had not been destroyed, 418 00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:55,280 Speaker 1: they had not been burned. They have been disassembled in 419 00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:58,760 Speaker 1: theory to be reassembled somewhere who knows. Who knows? 420 00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:00,680 Speaker 2: That would be the only thing that makes sense to me. 421 00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:02,080 Speaker 2: But let's continue. 422 00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:06,639 Speaker 1: In White's opinion, they moved and we have the quote 423 00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:10,720 Speaker 1: here fifty miles into the main meaning that they have 424 00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:16,159 Speaker 1: moved inland into the forest of North Carolina. Proper. Historians 425 00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:22,040 Speaker 1: like this idea for numerous reasons over the years. But 426 00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:24,960 Speaker 1: when they get to when you get to the part 427 00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:28,680 Speaker 1: of the narrative where you say why did they move inland? 428 00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:32,720 Speaker 1: What happened to them afterwards, that's when you see more 429 00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:37,240 Speaker 1: and more and more debate. We're going to pause for 430 00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:40,159 Speaker 1: a word from our sponsor and then we'll return with 431 00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:49,359 Speaker 1: more theories after the break, and. 432 00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:52,639 Speaker 2: We're back now. Just let's I want to have a 433 00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:57,720 Speaker 2: quick comment on there about this concept to the perhaps 434 00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:01,320 Speaker 2: the colonists moved inward towards the main The only thing 435 00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:04,760 Speaker 2: I would put forward here is that food had always 436 00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:08,840 Speaker 2: been an issue in this settlement. And if you are moving, 437 00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:12,800 Speaker 2: you know, to the mainland and not an island that's 438 00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:16,919 Speaker 2: so separated from probably populations of certain mammals that are 439 00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:21,040 Speaker 2: walking around and birds and other things, it would make 440 00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:23,520 Speaker 2: sense that they would move inland to have a better 441 00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:26,919 Speaker 2: food source. There are a lot of problems here. The 442 00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:31,119 Speaker 2: main one would be that the indigenous populations may not 443 00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:34,160 Speaker 2: like that very much. That they're encroaching in that way. 444 00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:37,600 Speaker 2: But well, let's get into all this stuff, because it 445 00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:42,040 Speaker 2: really is conceivable overall that the colonists met a much 446 00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:46,560 Speaker 2: less violent fate. Then maybe you would think, you know, 447 00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:50,080 Speaker 2: having all of their stuff gone and just disappearing, because 448 00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:53,520 Speaker 2: the first thing, at least I think of, is, oh, something, 449 00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:57,560 Speaker 2: most foul occurred here. But perhaps that's not the case. 450 00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:02,480 Speaker 1: Right. The Jamestown colonists when they when they conducted that 451 00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:06,520 Speaker 1: search sixteen hundreds, they surnounted a couple of different parties 452 00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:10,400 Speaker 1: to hunt down members of the lost Colony, and it 453 00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:15,000 Speaker 1: became a common thing, standard operating procedure for them to 454 00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:19,080 Speaker 1: question any members of native communities when they may contact. 455 00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:21,520 Speaker 1: It was one of the things they always asked them about, 456 00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:25,560 Speaker 1: you know what I mean, how's the weather? You know, 457 00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:30,920 Speaker 1: how is the fishing good? Have you seen any people 458 00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:36,080 Speaker 1: who look like us? And if so, what's what's their deal? 459 00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:42,520 Speaker 1: So we're paraphrasing some of the people that these colonists 460 00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:47,840 Speaker 1: talked to said, there are settlements further down the coast 461 00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:51,520 Speaker 1: with people who look like you, and they have two 462 00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:57,239 Speaker 1: story thatched roof houses that look like and you know 463 00:29:57,280 --> 00:30:00,080 Speaker 1: from the descriptions Europeans would think, well, that sounds like 464 00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:02,760 Speaker 1: the kind of stuff we would build, And then other 465 00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:07,640 Speaker 1: groups told of nearby tribes that could read English and 466 00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:12,920 Speaker 1: dressed in a similar method manner to Europeans. The most 467 00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:17,520 Speaker 1: I think the most dramatic report in the record is 468 00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:22,280 Speaker 1: the story that someone cited a child who is dressed 469 00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:25,800 Speaker 1: in the manner of a native group, and this child 470 00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:29,920 Speaker 1: had blonde hair and was fair skinned. So they thought 471 00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:35,280 Speaker 1: maybe maybe something terrible happens, like maybe a disease or 472 00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:39,000 Speaker 1: some sort of natural disaster, and that due to that, 473 00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:43,560 Speaker 1: the surviving members of the colony were adopted or assimilated 474 00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:48,440 Speaker 1: into a native population. I do want to pause while 475 00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:54,120 Speaker 1: we're talking native populations. So the island is crootoin the 476 00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:58,880 Speaker 1: community is Croatan Croatan. Yeah, yeah, okay, So that's that. 477 00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:01,479 Speaker 1: If you hear if you hear us of doing some 478 00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:03,840 Speaker 1: word juggling, if you hear me doing that, it's just 479 00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:06,080 Speaker 1: my mind's playing tricks on me. 480 00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:08,400 Speaker 2: And if you if you hear me say Croatian, is 481 00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:09,200 Speaker 2: just because I'm wrong. 482 00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:12,720 Speaker 1: Still, we don't know. We have to hold out for 483 00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:20,200 Speaker 1: that theory. So this this mention of assimilation from European 484 00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:26,479 Speaker 1: survivors into a native American community has doubtlessly, doubtlessly had 485 00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:29,840 Speaker 1: a ring of familiarity to some of our fellow listeners, 486 00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:33,640 Speaker 1: and if you're from the area, if you're from North Carolina, 487 00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:36,160 Speaker 1: then you're very familiar with what we're about to say, 488 00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:39,360 Speaker 1: which is, of course the story of the Lumbe l 489 00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:46,080 Speaker 1: U m b E. These reports from the from the 490 00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:49,480 Speaker 1: early days of the Jamestown investigations to the modern day 491 00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:53,720 Speaker 1: is to corroborate one of the most popular theories about 492 00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:57,560 Speaker 1: what became of these colonists, that they assimilated into these tribes, 493 00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:01,920 Speaker 1: and the idea is that over the core of multiple generations, 494 00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:09,320 Speaker 1: intermarriage between these groups would produce a different, distinct group 495 00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:14,880 Speaker 1: that had elements from both communities, and this group is 496 00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:19,720 Speaker 1: called the Lumbee tribe by people who believe this theory. 497 00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:24,080 Speaker 1: The Lumbee tribe is native to North Carolina, but according 498 00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:29,720 Speaker 1: to the stories, no one can really pin down their origin, 499 00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:33,520 Speaker 1: and you can see a number of different theories about 500 00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:37,800 Speaker 1: their origin with varying degrees of credibility. But they have 501 00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:38,560 Speaker 1: an oral. 502 00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:42,920 Speaker 2: History, right yeah own. That oral history actually links them 503 00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:48,160 Speaker 2: to Roanoak settlers, or at least two aspects of those settlers, 504 00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:52,120 Speaker 2: so that oral tradition is supported by some of the 505 00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:56,560 Speaker 2: surnames within the tribe, which is really interesting, and it 506 00:32:57,360 --> 00:33:00,680 Speaker 2: was the tribe itself was unique because several of the members, 507 00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:05,240 Speaker 2: a lot of the members could speak English. And then 508 00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:07,280 Speaker 2: if you again we're talking about the surnames, you look 509 00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:09,760 Speaker 2: at the family names of some of the Roanoke Colonists, 510 00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:14,640 Speaker 2: You've got people like Hyatt Taylor Dial. The Lumbee tribe 511 00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:18,320 Speaker 2: members or at least members of the Lumbee tribe shared 512 00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:21,560 Speaker 2: these names as early as the seventeen hundreds. I think 513 00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:24,440 Speaker 2: seventeen nineteen is the first date that we're aware of 514 00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:29,840 Speaker 2: there and other settlers who would come through make their way, 515 00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:34,960 Speaker 2: you know, and interact with these tribes, they would, you know, 516 00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:38,880 Speaker 2: they would be pretty astonished that these groups of people 517 00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:43,120 Speaker 2: had gray eyes. Several times they would speak English, and 518 00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:47,200 Speaker 2: there was even It's really interesting because even if you're 519 00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:49,520 Speaker 2: if you're talking to members within the group, or if 520 00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:52,160 Speaker 2: you have reports from members within the Lumbee tribe, they 521 00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:56,600 Speaker 2: cannot come to a full conclusion on whether or not 522 00:33:57,200 --> 00:34:00,520 Speaker 2: there was a true link to the Roanoke Colonists. 523 00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:02,240 Speaker 1: Right, that's correct. 524 00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:05,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's come to be called a thing. It's been 525 00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:07,440 Speaker 2: called the Lumbye connection. 526 00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:09,960 Speaker 1: Which is I love that as the title of something, 527 00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:13,080 Speaker 1: you know, the Lumby connection, the sequel to the French connection. 528 00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:18,000 Speaker 1: I'm not sure. Yeah, it remains intriguing because if that is, 529 00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:21,480 Speaker 1: if it is true, if there's sands to this theory, 530 00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:26,120 Speaker 1: then the Roanoke colonists aren't lost. Their genes are still 531 00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:30,360 Speaker 1: around today in Robeson County, North Carolina. And if you 532 00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:34,080 Speaker 1: are listening, you are a member of a group like 533 00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:38,160 Speaker 1: this Lumby or related communities of which there are several. 534 00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:42,880 Speaker 1: We would love to know your take on this, especially 535 00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:48,960 Speaker 1: with the advent of DNA testing, which dramatically changed the 536 00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:54,600 Speaker 1: conversation around the origin of the Malunging community. There's another 537 00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:58,640 Speaker 1: set of theories which says that the Roanoke settlers fell 538 00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:04,200 Speaker 1: victim not to a Native American community, but to the 539 00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:08,120 Speaker 1: Spanish Empire, because the Spanish had a settlement just down 540 00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:10,640 Speaker 1: the coast in Florida, right, And we know that the 541 00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:16,080 Speaker 1: Spanish forces in the West Indies were aware that there 542 00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:20,239 Speaker 1: were English colonists around. They weren't happy about it, but they. 543 00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:24,920 Speaker 2: Knew, yeah, exactly. And there's actually a tale here that 544 00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:29,520 Speaker 2: was told by Darby Gland, GLA and Dee. This was 545 00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:35,279 Speaker 2: a Roanoake settler. He left the fifteen eighty seven expedition 546 00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:40,520 Speaker 2: after it set ashore in Puerto Rico to take on supply. 547 00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:42,359 Speaker 2: So they were going to stop in Puerto Rico pick 548 00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:47,040 Speaker 2: up supplies, right. He later reported that he told Spanish 549 00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:50,160 Speaker 2: officials there when he was making this transaction in Puerto 550 00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:54,920 Speaker 2: Rico about the Roanoake settlement exactly where it was, almost 551 00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:58,200 Speaker 2: as in, I don't know, an act of espionage. 552 00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:01,879 Speaker 1: So that's the thing, right when we talk about when 553 00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:06,280 Speaker 1: we talk about the bad record keeping a student, listeners 554 00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:08,680 Speaker 1: will notice that we also pointed out John White was 555 00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:12,640 Speaker 1: a professional cartographer. Yeah, so why would a professional map 556 00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:18,640 Speaker 1: maker do such a pissport job of you know, mapping things. 557 00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:23,800 Speaker 1: It probably was not because of incompetence. It was more 558 00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:30,880 Speaker 1: likely that this vagueness was a matter of state security, hmm, 559 00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:35,400 Speaker 1: So that the Empire couldn't find out, you know, the 560 00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:38,920 Speaker 1: Spanish Empire forces couldn't find out about the colony and 561 00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:43,839 Speaker 1: then attack it before the British could send someone over 562 00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:45,360 Speaker 1: across the ocean. 563 00:36:45,920 --> 00:36:49,239 Speaker 2: It really does make you game out the whole scenario 564 00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:52,680 Speaker 2: when you think about it in that light. Yeah, as 565 00:36:53,200 --> 00:37:00,319 Speaker 2: as a counter intelligence act of cartography. Counterintelligence cartography. That's 566 00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:00,799 Speaker 2: a new thing. 567 00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:02,040 Speaker 1: That's good. I like it. 568 00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:07,080 Speaker 2: Oh man, dude, that's so crazy because what if it 569 00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:11,800 Speaker 2: was never located there ever, Oh, right on that island. 570 00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:15,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, or you know, also, I want to say, the 571 00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:25,520 Speaker 1: idea of a a renegade cartographer is fantastic, mister white 572 00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:30,960 Speaker 1: renegade cartographer. Yes, it's con rogue. There are other theories 573 00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:36,080 Speaker 1: that the colonists were innocent bystanders in a entering in 574 00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:42,279 Speaker 1: media arrests into a greater conflict between rival native communities. 575 00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:46,719 Speaker 1: There's an anthropologist John Hopkins University named Lee Miller who 576 00:37:46,719 --> 00:37:51,480 Speaker 1: says the colonists wandered into a violent shift of the 577 00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:55,880 Speaker 1: balance of power amongst the tribes that lived inland because 578 00:37:55,960 --> 00:38:00,400 Speaker 1: Roanoke is geographically located in the crux of what was 579 00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:05,240 Speaker 1: at the time intense socio political friction between two groups. 580 00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:09,200 Speaker 1: There was the Secotan, who were you know, who had 581 00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:14,080 Speaker 1: dominion over Roanoke. There's another group, the Chowanooke, who controlled 582 00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:19,080 Speaker 1: the waterways that were nearby. And again, you know, not 583 00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:24,400 Speaker 1: Native speakers, so we're not intentionally mispronouncing the names natives 584 00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:28,719 Speaker 1: that the colonists were friendly with began to lose control 585 00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:32,799 Speaker 1: over the area and native communities that were hostile to 586 00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:36,920 Speaker 1: the settlers, again with pretty good reason to be. They 587 00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:41,520 Speaker 1: took over the area, they gained more control. So before 588 00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:45,480 Speaker 1: the Jamestown colonists arrived, or maybe right around the same time, 589 00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:48,480 Speaker 1: either around the same time or right before the Poetan 590 00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:53,359 Speaker 1: had attacked and destroyed the Chesapeake. 591 00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:59,560 Speaker 2: Hmm, waits then that tribe, is it the Powatan Polatan? 592 00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:00,759 Speaker 2: That's how familiar to me? 593 00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:05,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, it should that is where that is where the 594 00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:10,880 Speaker 1: famous Pocahontas is from. Oh yeah, it's not all paint 595 00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:13,320 Speaker 1: with painting with all the colors of the wind. 596 00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:13,680 Speaker 2: Yeah. 597 00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:18,840 Speaker 1: They they very much wanted to kill the Chesapeake. So 598 00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:24,960 Speaker 1: relationships between the English colonists and the Paletan were let's 599 00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:30,759 Speaker 1: say cold, sure. But even then, even with that, the 600 00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:33,480 Speaker 1: English forces were able to get a little bit of 601 00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:38,719 Speaker 1: information about what happened to the Roanoke colony, or they 602 00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:42,440 Speaker 1: were able to learn something. Who knows if it was true. 603 00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:47,000 Speaker 1: If the Roanoke colonists had gone inland in the midst 604 00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:52,320 Speaker 1: of this conflict, then the men would have been killed, 605 00:39:52,640 --> 00:39:55,440 Speaker 1: the women and children probably would have been captured as slaves. 606 00:39:55,680 --> 00:39:57,879 Speaker 1: And if they had been captured as slaves, they would 607 00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:02,279 Speaker 1: have been traded along established roots that span the US 608 00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:09,240 Speaker 1: coast from Virginia to Georgia. And this is important because 609 00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:13,480 Speaker 1: if we look at the timeline, the idea would be 610 00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:19,000 Speaker 1: that the somewhere in that intervening three years, the Roanoke 611 00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:23,280 Speaker 1: colonists assimilate to another tribe. But then that tribe is attacked, 612 00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:26,160 Speaker 1: and when that tribe is attacked, the attacking tribe doesn't 613 00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:28,040 Speaker 1: care if the people look kind of different, you know 614 00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:33,360 Speaker 1: what I mean, It's rules of war at that point. 615 00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:38,399 Speaker 2: Jeez. Well, so those are some of the big theories, right, 616 00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:45,359 Speaker 2: And with as those theories were being generated, and as 617 00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:50,799 Speaker 2: they continued, you know, for decades and centuries, people in 618 00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:54,960 Speaker 2: the more modern day we have been trying to, you know, 619 00:40:55,840 --> 00:40:58,440 Speaker 2: prove that one of these is true, right, or at 620 00:40:58,520 --> 00:41:02,200 Speaker 2: least disprove a few of these. We're scientific methoding this thing, 621 00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:07,960 Speaker 2: you guys. And you know, despite over a century of 622 00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:11,360 Speaker 2: going on that island, digging all over the place, trying 623 00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:15,360 Speaker 2: to find some remnant of the colony that would show us, 624 00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:18,680 Speaker 2: like some tiny clue, a little flashlight in the dark 625 00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:22,880 Speaker 2: that would show us this picture here, we have really 626 00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:26,239 Speaker 2: found nothing right now. 627 00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:31,399 Speaker 1: In the nineteen nineties, archaeologists working for the Colonial Williamsburg 628 00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:36,879 Speaker 1: Foundation in Virginia found what they're pretty sure is a 629 00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:40,880 Speaker 1: workshop from the fifteen eighty five expedition. That's why a 630 00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:46,120 Speaker 1: guy named Joaquim Gans had tested rocks for precious metals. 631 00:41:46,160 --> 00:41:49,759 Speaker 1: Other people at the workshop studied plants to figure out 632 00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:52,919 Speaker 1: their properties. They studied tobacco, things like that, how can 633 00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:55,359 Speaker 1: we make money off this? What can be used for 634 00:41:55,880 --> 00:42:01,640 Speaker 1: gons is interesting because he was a Bohemian expert. Is 635 00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:07,799 Speaker 1: the first recorded Jewish person in colonial America, and he's 636 00:42:07,840 --> 00:42:14,400 Speaker 1: also the first Bohemian in colonial America. This workshop looked 637 00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:18,279 Speaker 1: a lot like an alchemist out you know, outfit or establishment. 638 00:42:18,360 --> 00:42:21,760 Speaker 2: Oh sure, they found crucibles, you know crucibles right. 639 00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:27,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, classic classic alchemical paraphernalia. 640 00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:33,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, pharmaceutical let's call them jars. Glassware was littered 641 00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:38,040 Speaker 2: all across the floor. There were bricks that were probably 642 00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:41,359 Speaker 2: used or seemed to be have been used in a 643 00:42:41,400 --> 00:42:46,160 Speaker 2: special furnace situation for you know, manipulating and some of 644 00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:50,560 Speaker 2: the ingredients we're talking about here. The layout itself resembled 645 00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:54,200 Speaker 2: those of sixteenth century woodcuts that we that we have 646 00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:59,280 Speaker 2: of these German alchemical workshops that were kind of describing 647 00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:02,680 Speaker 2: here where it looks as though, if you know, you 648 00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:05,520 Speaker 2: took one of these woodcuts, if you could, if you 649 00:43:05,560 --> 00:43:08,719 Speaker 2: could enter it somehow and be inside the area of 650 00:43:08,719 --> 00:43:11,360 Speaker 2: the woodcut, and then just destroyed all the stuff that 651 00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:13,400 Speaker 2: you saw, yeah, and let it sit there for a 652 00:43:13,400 --> 00:43:15,520 Speaker 2: long time. That's what they think they found. 653 00:43:15,760 --> 00:43:18,840 Speaker 1: I see. So now, officially, as of the nineteen nineties, 654 00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:22,080 Speaker 1: experts have only found the remains of that workshop and 655 00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:25,360 Speaker 1: an earthen fort that may have been built at a 656 00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:32,279 Speaker 1: later day and time. Diggs conducted near this earthwork. The 657 00:43:32,320 --> 00:43:35,120 Speaker 1: fort we just mentioned in the eighteen nineties and nineteen 658 00:43:35,160 --> 00:43:38,520 Speaker 1: forties didn't really give us a bunch of stuff to 659 00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:41,799 Speaker 1: go on. They don't really change our understanding or help 660 00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:46,080 Speaker 1: it evolve. Excavations continue in the modern day. In twenty eighteen, 661 00:43:46,719 --> 00:43:50,759 Speaker 1: an archaeologist named Eric Klingelhoffer and as vice president for 662 00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:55,400 Speaker 1: research at the nonprofit First Colony Foundation in Durham, said, 663 00:43:55,600 --> 00:43:59,200 Speaker 1: I firmly believe that our program of re excavation will 664 00:43:59,239 --> 00:44:02,880 Speaker 1: provide answers to the vexing questions that past field work 665 00:44:03,239 --> 00:44:07,640 Speaker 1: has left us. I love that quote, so, I mean 666 00:44:07,680 --> 00:44:11,120 Speaker 1: it's good. You know, they're pretty open about the fact 667 00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:15,240 Speaker 1: that they are going to return to some previous excavations. 668 00:44:15,360 --> 00:44:20,600 Speaker 1: Maybe improvements and technology will help us, will help us 669 00:44:20,600 --> 00:44:22,120 Speaker 1: find things we missed the first time. 670 00:44:23,680 --> 00:44:26,200 Speaker 2: That's the returning to the moon kind. 671 00:44:26,040 --> 00:44:30,000 Speaker 1: Of speak, right, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, shout out to 672 00:44:30,040 --> 00:44:30,600 Speaker 1: the mooners. 673 00:44:30,840 --> 00:44:34,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, all these vexing questions about the dark side of 674 00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:34,759 Speaker 2: the Moon. 675 00:44:37,120 --> 00:44:40,120 Speaker 1: The other problem is that it may be too late. 676 00:44:40,320 --> 00:44:43,880 Speaker 1: There may be an expiration date on discovering the settlement, 677 00:44:43,960 --> 00:44:48,000 Speaker 1: and that expiration date may have passed. Some geologists believe 678 00:44:48,120 --> 00:44:50,680 Speaker 1: it is vanished under the waves. Like you said earlier. 679 00:44:50,719 --> 00:44:54,560 Speaker 1: Matt JP Walsh from the University of North Carolina says 680 00:44:54,560 --> 00:44:58,319 Speaker 1: that recent studies suggests shifting currents and rising waters inundated 681 00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:01,920 Speaker 1: the site in the past couple of cent trees. He 682 00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:06,480 Speaker 1: estimates the island's north end again one of the locations. 683 00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:08,600 Speaker 2: Are purported locations. 684 00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:10,560 Speaker 1: From John White. He estimates to the north end of 685 00:45:10,560 --> 00:45:13,360 Speaker 1: the islands lost about seven hundred and fifty meters in 686 00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:16,920 Speaker 1: the past four hundred years, and their currents and hurricanes 687 00:45:16,960 --> 00:45:20,719 Speaker 1: could bury any artifacts. But not everybody buys this explanation. 688 00:45:21,160 --> 00:45:23,960 Speaker 2: No, there's a guy who has a wonderful name named 689 00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:28,960 Speaker 2: Guy Prentice. It just feels right, feel it feels like 690 00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:33,880 Speaker 2: a play on Apprentice, But it's Guy Apprentice. He's his 691 00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:39,359 Speaker 2: archaeologist from NPS's Southeast Archaeological Center in Tallahassee. And we've 692 00:45:39,400 --> 00:45:41,400 Speaker 2: got a quote from him here. He says, if you 693 00:45:41,520 --> 00:45:44,560 Speaker 2: look at the maps from the seventeen hundreds, the island's 694 00:45:44,600 --> 00:45:48,719 Speaker 2: geography has not changed much. I just don't buy that 695 00:45:48,800 --> 00:45:53,239 Speaker 2: a couple of thousand yards are gone. So he's estimating, 696 00:45:53,880 --> 00:45:57,120 Speaker 2: you know, again at seven and fifty meters. It's it's 697 00:45:57,200 --> 00:46:01,440 Speaker 2: a lot. That's a lot of that would just be gone. 698 00:46:01,480 --> 00:46:07,239 Speaker 2: And I understand why Guy Prnus would say, yeah, I 699 00:46:07,239 --> 00:46:13,279 Speaker 2: don't buy it. However, it becomes a matter of kind 700 00:46:13,280 --> 00:46:17,479 Speaker 2: of who you believe and bearing out the science, because 701 00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:20,319 Speaker 2: you'd have to figure out exactly how much you know, 702 00:46:20,360 --> 00:46:23,920 Speaker 2: how do you even if you've got two experts that 703 00:46:23,960 --> 00:46:27,960 Speaker 2: are competing in that way on belief about where the 704 00:46:28,080 --> 00:46:31,719 Speaker 2: water has gone on this island and how much water 705 00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:34,440 Speaker 2: has actually approached the you know, the center of the 706 00:46:34,440 --> 00:46:38,640 Speaker 2: island itself, and how far you realize that, oh, something 707 00:46:38,680 --> 00:46:40,399 Speaker 2: is wrong here. We don't have enough data or something, 708 00:46:40,440 --> 00:46:44,320 Speaker 2: because we should be able to have an exact answer 709 00:46:44,320 --> 00:46:44,960 Speaker 2: to that question. 710 00:46:46,480 --> 00:46:53,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's strange because according to a couple of 711 00:46:54,719 --> 00:47:00,440 Speaker 1: different tests for various theories, the Lumbye DNA may not 712 00:47:00,520 --> 00:47:05,440 Speaker 1: be itself native American, maybe European and African. This genetic 713 00:47:05,520 --> 00:47:09,600 Speaker 1: testing can always always runs the risk of leaving people 714 00:47:09,600 --> 00:47:14,960 Speaker 1: with more questions than answers. And now we're looking at 715 00:47:15,040 --> 00:47:20,120 Speaker 1: the use of things like magnetometers, ground penetrating radar, things 716 00:47:20,120 --> 00:47:23,600 Speaker 1: that people just didn't have earlier, and of course their investigations. 717 00:47:23,600 --> 00:47:27,840 Speaker 1: So it is completely possible that we may be able 718 00:47:28,000 --> 00:47:33,920 Speaker 1: to reconstruct the order of events that led to the 719 00:47:33,960 --> 00:47:44,920 Speaker 1: disappearance of the colonists at Roano. And that's our classic 720 00:47:45,040 --> 00:47:48,800 Speaker 1: episode for this evening. We can't wait to hear your thoughts. 721 00:47:48,840 --> 00:47:50,359 Speaker 1: It's right, let us know what you think. You can reach. 722 00:47:50,360 --> 00:47:52,759 Speaker 1: You to the handl Conspiracy Stuff where we exist on 723 00:47:52,800 --> 00:47:57,200 Speaker 1: Facebook x and YouTube on Instagram and TikTok or Conspiracy 724 00:47:57,200 --> 00:47:57,719 Speaker 1: Stuff Show. 725 00:47:57,760 --> 00:48:02,560 Speaker 2: If you want to call us dial one eight STDWYTK 726 00:48:02,719 --> 00:48:05,840 Speaker 2: that's our voicemail system. You've got three minutes, give yourself 727 00:48:05,840 --> 00:48:07,759 Speaker 2: a cool nickname and let us know if we can 728 00:48:07,840 --> 00:48:10,120 Speaker 2: use your name and message on the air. If you 729 00:48:10,200 --> 00:48:12,160 Speaker 2: got more to say than can fit in that voicemail, 730 00:48:12,160 --> 00:48:15,120 Speaker 2: why not instead send us a good old fashioned email. 731 00:48:15,360 --> 00:48:18,239 Speaker 1: We are the entities that read every single piece of 732 00:48:18,280 --> 00:48:19,600 Speaker 1: correspondence we receive. 733 00:48:20,120 --> 00:48:23,640 Speaker 4: Be aware, yet not afraid. Sometimes the void writes back 734 00:48:23,840 --> 00:48:45,799 Speaker 4: conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com. 735 00:48:45,960 --> 00:48:48,040 Speaker 2: Stuff they don't want you to know. Is a production 736 00:48:48,160 --> 00:48:52,680 Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 737 00:48:52,760 --> 00:48:55,960 Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.