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Speaker 1: On the Bechdel Cast.

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Speaker 2: The questions asked if movies have women and them, are

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Speaker 2: all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands, or do they

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Speaker 2: have individualism? It's the patriarchy, zeph and best start changing

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Speaker 2: it with the Bechdel Cast.

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Speaker 3: Hey, Jamie, Hey Kitlyn, I feel infinite? Do you feel infinite?

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Speaker 1: Okay? No, but okay, God, you're having a nice time.

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Speaker 1: Seems like maybe you've had a pop brownie, but like

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Speaker 1: maybe it's your first time doing this. Yeah, yeah, it'll

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Speaker 1: feel that way. Oh my god, I texted you this,

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Speaker 1: Kaitlin when we were This is very dark. But first

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Speaker 1: of all, I am a recent Pittsburgh like obsessive. I

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Speaker 1: love Pittsburgh. I went for the first time last month,

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Speaker 1: and I'm just like, Pittsburgh's amazing. So it's happy to

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Speaker 1: see Pittsburgh. However, every time they're standing up in that

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Speaker 1: damn tunnel, I'm waiting for like a hored terry moment,

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Speaker 1: I was like, this is so like Emma Watson's head is.

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Speaker 3: Gonna burst off, you know.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I couldn't stop the I rewatched Hereditary recently and

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Speaker 1: that's on me. But like every time they would stay

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Speaker 1: I was like, you, I went full. It's so fun

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Speaker 1: watching teen movies now that you're like, now that I'm

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Speaker 1: like aunt aged and I'm just like, don't you're gonna

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Speaker 1: You're gonna get hurt. Kids. Stop. I loved that scene.

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Speaker 1: This movie is so corny. I love it. Yeah, all right,

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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bechdel Cast. My name is Jamie Loftus.

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Speaker 3: My name is Caitlin Derante, and this is our show

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Speaker 3: where we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens, using

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Speaker 3: the Bechdel Test as a jumping off point to initiate

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Speaker 3: larger conversations. But Jamie, what even is that?

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Speaker 1: Oh? Well, I can tell you. The Bechdel Test was

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Speaker 1: created by queer cartoonist Alison Bechdel, sometimes called the Bechdel

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Speaker 1: Wallace Test. It was originally written as a one off joke,

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Speaker 1: a bit in Alison Bechdel's comment collection Dikes to Watch

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Speaker 1: out For, but has since become a metric that people

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Speaker 1: used to to see how much movies are interested in men.

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Speaker 1: So there's a lot of different versions of this test.

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Speaker 1: The version we use requires that two people of a

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Speaker 1: marginalized gender with names speak to each other about something

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Speaker 1: other than a man for more than two lines of dialogue.

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Speaker 1: I guess not people. It could be cartoon squirrels. I

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Speaker 1: don't know why I said people. I feel like that's

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Speaker 1: really putting movies at a box, because then car, what

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Speaker 1: about cars?

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Speaker 3: What about cars? And that's a question that only we

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Speaker 3: are brave enough to ask.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so I apologize for my misspeaking. Uh not just

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Speaker 1: people anyways, that's what the Bechdel test is.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Also, not to derail us, but your mention of

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Speaker 3: cartoon squirrels reminded me of our episode on National Treasure,

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Speaker 3: which I recently re listened to an anticipation of I

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Speaker 3: don't know, maybe are we going to cover National Treasure too.

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Speaker 1: It's almost like you texted me about it yesterday and

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Speaker 1: we're like, and I didn't answer right away, and then

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Speaker 1: you're like bump, like, oh my god.

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Speaker 3: I was like, please answer me right now. We have

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Speaker 3: to do it. But the joke we kept making in

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Speaker 3: the first National Treasure episode was about how Justin Bartha

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Speaker 3: is basically a cartoon squirrel like Disney animal sidekick person.

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Speaker 3: We were right about that, Yeah, we were right about that.

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Speaker 1: I think even honestly, Justin Bartha would agree, would agree

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Speaker 1: and maybe even be flattered. I hope I have not.

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Speaker 1: I'm you know, I'm pro Bartha. It's true, you are.

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Speaker 1: I always happened.

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Speaker 3: Well, that didn't pass the Bechdel test.

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Speaker 1: No I didn't. It did not oops, not even close.

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Speaker 4: Uh.

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Speaker 1: And today we have we have two exciting bits of news.

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Speaker 1: We have a Bartha List movie and we have an

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Speaker 1: amazing guest.

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Speaker 3: We sure do.

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Speaker 5: I'm better than Justin Bartha. That's so nice.

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Speaker 1: Better than Bartha. Ooh, new shirt in coming seems a

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Speaker 1: little mean spirited, but it's true.

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Speaker 3: Well, I also think he might agree with that.

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Speaker 1: I know, I like that. We have decided that Justin

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Speaker 1: Bartha is very humble. That's just how we characterized him

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Speaker 1: in or that's headcannon for the Bechdel cast. Justin Bartha

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Speaker 1: humble bumble.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, maybe that's.

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Speaker 1: The merch Yeah yeah, we designed sure he could Justin

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Speaker 1: Bartha not to do the Alfred Molina game, but Justin

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Speaker 1: Bartha could have played the Paul Red character in this movie.

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Speaker 1: Oh sure, Bartha. I mean not that he should have.

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Speaker 1: I feel like Paul Red Cool Teacher is like this movie.

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Speaker 1: I'm so excited to talk about it because it is

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Speaker 1: like so twenty twelve, even though it takes place in

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Speaker 1: nineteen ninety one, You're like, this is the most twenty

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Speaker 1: twelve movie that's ever come out, where like Emma Watson

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Speaker 1: can do an American accent, Paul Rudd, cool teacher, like

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Speaker 1: just there, she can't do an America.

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Speaker 5: For folks who can't say me, I did like a Soso.

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Speaker 1: Movement a Watson. You know what, what can I say? Okay?

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Speaker 6: So I think the word Alfred Molina turns up in

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Speaker 6: the history of like a search engine for Bechdel cast

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Speaker 6: like one hundred and nine tags or something like that.

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Speaker 1: That's good.

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Speaker 3: So cool.

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Speaker 1: What I hear when you say that is could be higher,

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Speaker 1: could be more. Yeah, and we've.

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Speaker 5: Still go higher. Yes you do?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, wow, Yeah, let's get to work on that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: In the meantime, the movie today is The Perks of

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Speaker 3: Being a Wallflower. Our guest is a religious, black, multiracial,

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Speaker 3: none binary suicide survivor who is currently the seventh Poet

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Speaker 3: Laureate of Portland, Maine. Air debut collection, Judas and Suicide

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Speaker 3: is available now via Game Over Books. Maya was one

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Speaker 3: of three artists of color selected to represent Maine in

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Speaker 3: the Kennedy Center's Arts across America series in twenty twenty.

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Speaker 3: They recently published essays in venues such as The Daily Beast,

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Speaker 3: Black Girl, Nerds, Honey Literary, and The Rumputs. Maya was

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Speaker 3: also selected as one of the Advocates Champions of Pride

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Speaker 3: in twenty twenty two, and you can follow more of

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Speaker 3: their work at Maya williamspoet dot com. It's Maya Williams.

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Speaker 5: Welcome. Come, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you.

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Speaker 5: I love I love listening to y'allso so much.

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Speaker 6: Y'all have gotten me through so many, so many drives

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Speaker 6: and just so much. And y'all are hilarious and y'all

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Speaker 6: are really it and thank you. And also Jamie ghost Church,

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Speaker 6: Oh my gosh, obsessed.

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Speaker 1: Thank you.

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Speaker 5: You're welcome.

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Speaker 1: The only good thing to happen in Florida kind of. Oh,

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Speaker 1: We're so happy you're here. I'm happy to be doing

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Speaker 1: this for a bit. So we're covering perks of being

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Speaker 1: a ware flower wallfire wallflower, long, long, long time requests

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Speaker 1: from our listeners.

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Speaker 5: Amazing, I did not know. Pat.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel like this is like a late millennial classic.

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Speaker 1: Oh yes, but I'm curious.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So it's Oh, now we get to hear me say

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Speaker 1: someone's last name for the first time. Written and directed

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Speaker 1: by Stephen.

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Speaker 3: Schabowski, that was my best gift.

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Speaker 1: Let's go at that. And he also wrote the book.

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Speaker 1: So I think it's it's I feel like that's very

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Speaker 1: rare where you get an adaptation where it's like, well,

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Speaker 1: it's just this guy, and usually it likes switch a

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Speaker 1: tant So I think it's like really interesting. So, Maya,

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Speaker 1: what's your history with the Perks of being a Wallflower?

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Speaker 1: The movie, the book, the Expanded Universe.

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Speaker 6: My history with it. I read the book when I

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Speaker 6: was in high school. I watched the movie, and I

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Speaker 6: remember like watching the commentaries as like a teenager too

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Speaker 6: and like being so yeah, I was so obsessed with

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Speaker 6: it at the time. And then, like, while writing my

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Speaker 6: poetry collection Judas and Suicide, had been revisiting a lot

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Speaker 6: of the movies that first brought up suicidality for me

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Speaker 6: in a formative way. So then i rewatched this movie,

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Speaker 6: rewatch the commentaries and everything, and I'm like, hmm, twenty

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Speaker 6: seven year old me still loves this, and also, huh,

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Speaker 6: fuck Charlie, fuck Patrick.

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Speaker 5: So I'm really excited to dive in.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yes, here we go, yeah.

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Speaker 1: There's oh, there's there's so much going on in this

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Speaker 1: damn movie, Jamie.

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Speaker 3: What's your relationship with it?

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Speaker 1: I really didn't have much of a relationship with this movie. Weirdly,

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Speaker 1: I think it's like a micro micro generational thing where

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Speaker 1: this came out like when I was early in college,

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Speaker 1: and I think I was like, I'm cal I like,

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Speaker 1: you've talked about this different for different movies of like

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Speaker 1: I'm in college now, I don't watch movies about high schoolers. Wow,

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Speaker 1: And so I missed this movie. I didn't. I didn't

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Speaker 1: see it, and then I just kind of never got

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Speaker 1: around watching it. And then by the time I thought

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Speaker 1: to watch it, I was like, I don't want to

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Speaker 1: watch a movie with Ezra Miller in it, right, But

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Speaker 1: it's I read it was I think last year was

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Speaker 1: the ten year anniversary of this movie, and I saw

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Speaker 1: a lot written about it, sort of as a retrospective.

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Speaker 1: And I'm really excited you brought us this movie because

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Speaker 1: I feel like this movie is doing a lot and

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Speaker 1: it's also not doing a lot. It's a it's a

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Speaker 1: pretty fascinating thing. I mean, what I will say is

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Speaker 1: I I enjoyed this movie based on it's just like

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Speaker 1: raw sincerity, and like, I feel like there's especially with

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Speaker 1: movies that are like this baldly sincere, people will always

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Speaker 1: kind of dunk on them. But yeah, I like that

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Speaker 1: if like that's teen, movies should be wildly sincere from

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Speaker 1: time to time. That's okay, It's just the other stuff

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Speaker 1: that we have to talk about, right, But yeah, I

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Speaker 1: I generally enjoyed this movie, and I think it's very

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Speaker 1: interesting to watch with twenty twenty three goggles on. I

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Speaker 1: know that if I had seen this movie when I

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Speaker 1: was twelve, I would have lost my shit. Caitlyn, what's

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Speaker 1: your history of this movie? Had you seen it before

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Speaker 1: I had?

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Speaker 3: Yes? I think I don't know, maybe three or four

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Speaker 3: years ago. I have never read the book, But this

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Speaker 3: is a book that everyone I went to high school

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Speaker 3: with and everyone I went to college with talked about

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Speaker 3: it incessantly. And I don't know if it was a

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Speaker 3: regional thing because I grew up in western Pennsylvania and

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Speaker 3: Pittsburgh is the closest major city to where I'm from. Wow,

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Speaker 3: And I went to penn State for undergrad and did

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Speaker 3: get a bachelor's degree in film and television, something that

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Speaker 3: I actually never mentioned, but because it's such a Pennsylvania

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Speaker 3: centric movie and there's lots there's lots of references, like

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Speaker 3: when she's like, you have to go to the diner

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Speaker 3: and get grilled stickies, I was like, you do have

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Speaker 3: to do that. But I just never bothered with the book.

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Speaker 3: I don't know why. And then the movie came and

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Speaker 3: went and I was like, well into adulthood, so I

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Speaker 3: was like, I don't need to be watching coming of

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Speaker 3: age stories. I've already done that. So but then a

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Speaker 3: few years ago I watched it, and then when I

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Speaker 3: started rewatching it for this episode, I realized that every

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Speaker 3: memory I have of this is actually from Edge of

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Speaker 3: seventeen because I think I watched them around the same time,

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Speaker 3: and they there's I feel like they're similar coming of

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Speaker 3: age like high school movies. Though I did see this one,

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Speaker 3: I just didn't remember anything from it, so not much

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Speaker 3: of an attachment to it except for the reference to

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Speaker 3: grilled stickies and the several references to Olive Garden.

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Speaker 1: Ough. I mean, truly, this movie is doing things that others.

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Speaker 3: The Olive Garden reference representation is at an all time high.

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Speaker 3: It's true in this movie.

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Speaker 1: And I also, I mean not that this is like,

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Speaker 1: but I was, like, how many movies take place in Pittsburgh.

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Speaker 3: It's just like, not a lot.

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Speaker 1: The dad is a Penguins fan. It's kind of fun anyways, Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: this is I mean. And also I guess for listeners

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Speaker 1: this episode and this movie if you haven't seen it before, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: there will be talk about suicidality as well as child

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Speaker 1: sex abuse in the space of this which I did

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Speaker 1: not see coming at the end of the movie I watched.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I usually watched stuff twice for the show,

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Speaker 1: but like, I definitely had to watch this movie twice

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Speaker 1: to go back and watch it with that knowledge. And

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Speaker 1: I don't know, we have so much to talk about,

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Speaker 1: but just if those are sensitive issues for you, that's

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Speaker 1: going to come up in this episode for.

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Speaker 3: Sure, Let's take a quick break and then come right

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Speaker 3: back for the recap. Okay, So the movie is set

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Speaker 3: in the early nineties in a suburb of Pittsburgh. Ever

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Speaker 3: heard of it?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we Pittsburgh number one fan Heinz Ketchup Factory.

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Speaker 6: What a Bye raw doc now by Jamie.

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Speaker 3: Exactly.

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Speaker 1: I was disappointed that they didn't mention how close they

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Speaker 1: were to a ketchup factory the whole movie, but major oversight,

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Speaker 1: something to think about for next time.

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Speaker 3: We meet Charlie played by Logan Lherman. He is writing

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Speaker 3: a letter to someone we don't know who, and I

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Speaker 3: think we never find out, right, right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: Well.

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Speaker 6: In the commentary, Stephen Chabaski says so for the book

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Speaker 6: he wants to keep dear Friend personal to him, but

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Speaker 6: for the movie, dear Friend is you as in the

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Speaker 6: viewer audience and my and my emotional ass cry.

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Speaker 1: This movie is so corny.

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Speaker 3: It is like pure American cheese, white America.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, oh god, very white.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, emphasis on the white.

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Speaker 5: There's only one black actor and he does not speak.

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Speaker 1: I was I that. I feel like that is also

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Speaker 1: a very twenty twelve instinct to be like, sure, we

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Speaker 1: can have a like an openly queer character, but then

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Speaker 1: we'll have to hedge our bets by making sure every

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Speaker 1: cast member is white. And you're like, no, you don't

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Speaker 1: have to do that, or you could just make a movie,

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Speaker 1: like you could just cast a movie to look like

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Speaker 1: a place that exists.

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Speaker 3: Wow. But then they were like, but it's twenty twelve,

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Speaker 3: which you.

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Speaker 1: Can tell from the weird Oh my god, I had

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Speaker 1: really I don't know. What a troubled time in youth fashion.

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Speaker 1: The early twenty tens was where you're seeing like I

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Speaker 1: was like, why were we wearing these like little sweaters

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Speaker 1: that were for grandma's but they were actually for teenagers.

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Speaker 1: It was so confusing how fem teenagers were just walking

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Speaker 1: around in these little sweaters.

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Speaker 3: Yes, what a moment, But again, it was set. It's

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Speaker 3: set in the early nineties, so it should be like

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Speaker 3: nineties fashion.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, I know, but I was like, that's

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Speaker 1: a twenty twelve little sweater. I know that damn sweater.

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Speaker 1: Sure it is not warm.

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Speaker 3: Okay. So he's writing a letter explaining how he spent

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Speaker 3: some time in the hospital. He alludes to some mental

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Speaker 3: health issues. He says he doesn't really have any friends,

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Speaker 3: but tomorrow is his first day of high school and

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Speaker 3: he's hoping to turn things around. So he goes to school.

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Speaker 3: His sister Candace and her boyfriend.

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Speaker 1: Nina doprev You're just like Vampire Diaries, Degrassi. I could

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Speaker 1: go on diet wine. I think that's what she's feeling

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Speaker 1: right now.

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Speaker 3: So Candace and her boyfriend Derek aka Ponytail, Derek aka

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Speaker 3: Nicholas Brawn aka cousin Greg from Succession aka recently disgraced

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Speaker 3: actor Nicholas.

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Speaker 1: Yes, not only is he a piece of shit, it's

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Speaker 1: not the first time he's played a character named Derek,

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Speaker 1: because he also played Derek and Zola.

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Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, I always forget he's in that movie.

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Speaker 1: Wow. Yeah, he plays a guy named Derek. A lot

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Speaker 1: she was anyways, you hate to see it?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, okay. So his sister and Derek won't let Charlie

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Speaker 3: sit with them at lunch because it's the Earth Club

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Speaker 3: is for seniors only, and he's a freshman and he's

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Speaker 3: a loser. Also, his friend from middle school and his

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Speaker 3: older brother's friend, Brad both ignore Charlie, so his attempts

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Speaker 3: to make friends is not working. Then in shop class,

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Speaker 3: he meets Patrick played by Ezra Miller, who is a

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Speaker 3: senior who is picking on a teacher rather than freshman

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Speaker 3: as the other seniors tend to do. So Charlie immediately

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Speaker 3: likes Patrick.

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Speaker 1: Quick comment on we'll just circle back and acknowledge it

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Speaker 1: as remeller stuff. A little later in the episode, but

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Speaker 1: the actor playing Brad I was like losing it. I

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Speaker 1: was like, what I've seen this person, I've seen this

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Speaker 1: person and it didn't come through a young Neil from

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Speaker 1: Scott Pilgrim correct and Chip from Jennifer's body. Kind of

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Speaker 1: a camp hero. Yes, this guy true name's Johnny Simmons.

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Speaker 1: Good for him.

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Speaker 6: He's the kid who He's the kid who dies in

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Speaker 6: the beginning of twenty one Jump Street.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, what a legacy.

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Speaker 3: Not to brag, but I have twenty one and twenty

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Speaker 3: two Jump Street on DVD.

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Speaker 1: So thoughts, brave, thank you, I still have not. I've

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Speaker 1: seen twenty one, I haven't seen twenty two, but people

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Speaker 1: love those movies.

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Speaker 3: I think they're very funny.

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Speaker 1: Although ACAB includes twenty one Jump Street, it.

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Speaker 5: Just does, Yes, it sure does.

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Speaker 3: It does anyway.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, what a career Johnny Simmons.

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Speaker 6: Yeap.

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Speaker 3: So, then Charlie goes to English class with his teacher,

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Speaker 3: mister Paul Rudd.

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Speaker 1: Go chal Rudd grew out his hair and is like,

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Speaker 1: to kill a bocky bird? Ever heard of it? And

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Speaker 1: you're like, this is a lot. Yes, this is so

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Speaker 1: teen movie.

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Speaker 3: Charlie knows all of the answers to mister Paul Rudd's questions,

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Speaker 3: but he doesn't participate because he's so shy. He's a wallflower.

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Speaker 3: Then at home we meet his mom and dad played

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Speaker 3: by Kate Walsh and Dylan McDermott, who reassure him that

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Speaker 3: he is going to make friends. Then at a football game,

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Speaker 3: Charlie approaches Patrick, they chat, they become friendly. Charlie also

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Speaker 3: meets Sam played by Emma Watson.

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Speaker 1: They do this shot or I mean, I just like

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Speaker 1: Halo shot. Yeah, it's just I just want to really

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Speaker 1: embrace and point out this movie's beautiful corniness where yeah,

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Speaker 1: the first shot Emma and she's framed like she's God,

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Speaker 1: and there's all these shots where she's like, Oh, it's

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Speaker 1: just so it's it's weird because I would say she's

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Speaker 1: not really a not like other girl's character because we

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Speaker 1: know a fair amount about her. I think she's like

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Speaker 1: characterized pretty well, but the way she's framed is definitely

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Speaker 1: not like other girl's characters.

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Speaker 3: Here's what I wrote in my notes, Calm Pixie dream

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Speaker 3: girl because she's not very manic, she's pretty calm, but

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Speaker 3: she is a Pixie dream girl.

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Speaker 1: She's definitely I mean, the Pixie's there, the dream Girl's there.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, she's a pretty she's pretty chill.

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Speaker 3: Chill pixie dream girl.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Also, her first line of dialogue is something like I

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Speaker 3: have a question, Oh my god, could there be anything

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Speaker 3: more disgusting than the bathrooms? Or something like that. I'm like,

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Speaker 3: are you Chandler from Friends.

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Speaker 1: Ladies and Gentlemen. Emma Watson's American accent, it's she's trying

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Speaker 1: it out and we have to deal with it.

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Speaker 5: The Harry Pottery it gets better in Little Women, it

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Speaker 5: gets better.

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Speaker 1: It does get better a Little Women. Give her seven years,

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Speaker 1: she'll figure it out. There's like she's very like, she's

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Speaker 1: like young in this movie. I'm only dunking on her

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Speaker 1: because I would dunk on any of the three main

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Speaker 1: characters in Harry Potter. All of their American accents are bad,

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Speaker 1: especially oh my god, sorry this is off the roils today.

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Speaker 1: But Rupert Grint in Knock at the Cabin, Oh my god.

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Speaker 1: They made his character from Boston for some reason, and

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Speaker 1: he's like blowing it. He's like, I don't know why.

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Speaker 1: They were like, not only are you doing an American accent,

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Speaker 1: it's like the most difficult regional accent to do. And

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Speaker 1: he's like, I'm from Waltham and you're like, oh god,

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Speaker 1: this is brutal. I loved it.

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Speaker 3: It's like when Anya Taylor Joy, who speaks English with

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Speaker 3: a British accent, was from Brockton. Brockton, right, yeah, I know.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and that was a big moment for my hometown

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Speaker 1: people thinking that Anya Taylor Joy might be from there.

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Speaker 3: What was that movie again? Something on the menu?

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Speaker 1: Right, the menu, Hot Girl cheeseburger. Anyways, Yeah, Emma, Emma

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Speaker 1: Watson is a chill Pixie dream girl. She's wearing her sweaters,

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Speaker 1: she's doing her American accent, and the movie is like,

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Speaker 1: you're in love with her, So you're like, all right.

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Speaker 3: Yes indeed. So Patrick and Sam invite Charlie to hang

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Speaker 3: out with them after the football game. They talk about music.

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Speaker 6: Oh my, the part where Patrick's like, oh, don't let

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Speaker 6: her give her music, she'll ruin your life. And Charlie's

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Speaker 6: like that's okay. I'm like, chill, that's so sick. I

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Speaker 6: have too much.

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Speaker 1: I have to keep reminding myself that Charlie's fourteen, sure,

400
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Speaker 1: because sometimes I'm just like this fucking kid. I'm like, okay,

401
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Speaker 1: he is fourteen, this fucking kid. But it's confusing because

402
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Speaker 1: like whatever Logan Lerman is visibly twenty two, So it's

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Speaker 1: hard to be like he's fourteen because you're like, but

404
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Speaker 1: that's all but that's a man. Wow. Anyways, what can

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Speaker 1: you do?

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Speaker 3: So Charlie he finds out that Patrick and Sam are

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Speaker 3: step siblings. He assumes that they're dating, but they're like tea,

408
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Speaker 3: he no, this is my stepbrother. Then they drive through

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Speaker 3: a tunnel where Sam is like standing up in the

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Speaker 3: bed of Patrick's truck while Heroes by David Bowie plays,

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Speaker 3: But they're like, oh my god, what is this song?

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Speaker 1: I love? I liked that too, because I feel like

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Speaker 1: that is such a teenage thing to hear a really

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Speaker 1: famous song for the first time and then be like

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Speaker 1: this song rules and yeah, everyone like over twenty five

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Speaker 1: is like yeah, yeah, it kind of famously does. It's see.

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Speaker 3: So then there's a scene where Charlie gets back home

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Speaker 3: from hanging out with his new friends and he sees

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Speaker 3: his sister's boyfriend being physically abusive to her, and she

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Speaker 3: makes him promise not to tell their parents, which will

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Speaker 3: become a recurring mot heath of like keeping a secret,

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Speaker 3: So we'll put a pin in that. Then it's time

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Speaker 3: for the homecoming dance and Charlie musters up the courage

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Speaker 3: to go on the dance floor where Patrick and Sam

425
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Speaker 3: are dancing to come on, Eileen.

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Speaker 1: Then she's not like the other girls, dancing big time,

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Speaker 1: going for it.

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Speaker 3: Then they go to this kid Bob's party, where Patrick

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Speaker 3: introduces Charlie to Mary Elizabeth played by May Whitman, and

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Speaker 3: Alice played by Aaron will Helmy. They're part of this

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Speaker 3: friend group as well. Charlie eats a weed brownie for

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Speaker 3: the first time, not knowing it's a weed brownie, so

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Speaker 3: he gets high and he's like, why do the marching

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Speaker 3: band get letterman jackets? It's not even a sport, And

435
00:24:56,680 --> 00:24:59,879
Speaker 3: then the other yes, but then the other kids are like,

436
00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:03,840
Speaker 3: this kid's so wild, like oh my god, and it's

437
00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:07,560
Speaker 3: just like he didn't say anything at all really.

438
00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:10,320
Speaker 1: Though he changed the game that day. Yeah, it's so

439
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:12,840
Speaker 1: funny how he's like being only a little bit weird,

440
00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:15,400
Speaker 1: he's being like five percent weird, and everyone's like, whoa

441
00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:18,520
Speaker 1: this kid? What's going on with this kid? You're right,

442
00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:21,560
Speaker 1: we got to meet more people. But maybe that's just

443
00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:22,159
Speaker 1: high school.

444
00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:23,760
Speaker 5: Yes.

445
00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:30,200
Speaker 3: He also mentions to Sam that his best friend recently

446
00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:31,360
Speaker 3: died by suicide.

447
00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:35,120
Speaker 6: That's a detail that opens up in the book as

448
00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:39,040
Speaker 6: to why he's hospitalized the death of his friend who

449
00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:39,880
Speaker 6: died by suicide.

450
00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:42,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, got it, so that that is because Yeah, in

451
00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:46,320
Speaker 1: the movie it really doesn't come up very much.

452
00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:49,600
Speaker 3: I think that's the only time it gets mentioned at

453
00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:50,600
Speaker 3: least explicitly.

454
00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:51,200
Speaker 1: Yeah.

455
00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:55,280
Speaker 3: Yeah. And then while they're still at the party, Charlie

456
00:25:55,359 --> 00:26:00,960
Speaker 3: accidentally walks in on Patrick and that guy Brad kissing,

457
00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:05,240
Speaker 3: and Patrick takes Charlie aside and asks him to promise

458
00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:08,399
Speaker 3: not to say anything like this will be our little secret,

459
00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:14,520
Speaker 3: so more of this motif. Then Patrick toasts Charlie and

460
00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:17,840
Speaker 3: he says, you're one of us. Now, you're you're our friend.

461
00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:23,560
Speaker 3: You see things, you understand, you're a wallflower, and we're like, whoo,

462
00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:25,800
Speaker 3: that's the name of the movie title.

463
00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:32,280
Speaker 6: I do find it very endearing though, with Charlie's like

464
00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:34,680
Speaker 6: what did I do and he's and Patrick's like, you

465
00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:35,800
Speaker 6: don't have to do anything.

466
00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:37,399
Speaker 5: I'm like, that's actually very fixed.

467
00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:41,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like there are many elements of this movie. They

468
00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:44,240
Speaker 1: are very sweet and like down to like the really

469
00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:47,399
Speaker 1: corny Paul Rudd being like, we accept the love we

470
00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:52,640
Speaker 1: think we deserve and you're like yeah, sure, Like very

471
00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:54,959
Speaker 1: it's like very profound in a way that you're like,

472
00:26:55,080 --> 00:27:02,200
Speaker 1: it's too profound, but I am crying, so whatever. Yeah,

473
00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:05,119
Speaker 1: I do love it. It's like he was right to

474
00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:06,480
Speaker 1: say it anyways.

475
00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:10,600
Speaker 3: I mean, I guess he's not wrong. But that also

476
00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:13,840
Speaker 3: happens in a scene where where Charlie goes to mister

477
00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:16,399
Speaker 3: Paul Rudd and he's like, why doesn't the girl I

478
00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:20,680
Speaker 3: like like me back, And I'm just like Charlie.

479
00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:21,880
Speaker 5: I think that's what was happening.

480
00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:23,800
Speaker 6: I think it was because like he saw his sister

481
00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:27,119
Speaker 6: with the abusive dude in the hallway and then he

482
00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:30,479
Speaker 6: came in. Because in the book he tells the teacher

483
00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:33,560
Speaker 6: what happened to his sister and it becomes a whole thing,

484
00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:34,320
Speaker 6: but they don't.

485
00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:34,879
Speaker 5: Do that in the movie.

486
00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:39,280
Speaker 1: Someon Wow, Okay, yeah, I would love to, you know, hear,

487
00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:41,960
Speaker 1: because it's it's I mean, I know that there's also

488
00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:46,840
Speaker 1: like producer decisions, Like it's not like Steven Schabowski has

489
00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:49,200
Speaker 1: like carte blanche with what ends up in the movie,

490
00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:51,280
Speaker 1: but because he's adapting his own work, I feel like

491
00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:53,679
Speaker 1: that's really interesting that some stuff is like opened up

492
00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:56,560
Speaker 1: on in the movies and other stuff is held back

493
00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:59,679
Speaker 1: on that's I like that. I like that much better.

494
00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:03,440
Speaker 1: M Yeah, yeah, I guess I misunderstood. I was interpreting

495
00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:07,200
Speaker 1: that as like, because this is also because Sam has

496
00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:11,199
Speaker 1: been dating this guy named Craig who says something like,

497
00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:12,800
Speaker 1: I don't write poetry.

498
00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:14,640
Speaker 3: Poetry write poetry.

499
00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:14,680
Speaker 5: Write.

500
00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:22,080
Speaker 1: Beautiful No no, Maya as a poet pictures.

501
00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:26,400
Speaker 3: I know, as a poet, may does poetry write you?

502
00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:28,240
Speaker 1: Does poetry write you?

503
00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:31,439
Speaker 5: Jesus, oh my god.

504
00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:36,840
Speaker 6: Craig is the white Cis dude at the open mic

505
00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:39,400
Speaker 6: who's all like, this isn't gonna take long, and he

506
00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:42,160
Speaker 6: exceeds the three minute timeline like.

507
00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:47,800
Speaker 1: An ah, yet it's saying nothing at all that part.

508
00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:52,120
Speaker 3: So so anyway, so Sam is dating this guy Craig,

509
00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:57,680
Speaker 3: and I was interpreting that as like, Charlie's jealous and

510
00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:01,040
Speaker 3: he likes Sam and he wants to date Sam, and

511
00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:04,240
Speaker 3: he sees that Craig isn't good for her. So that's

512
00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:07,760
Speaker 3: what I thought that comment was more about in the movie.

513
00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:12,840
Speaker 3: But in any case, Charlie has friends now and he,

514
00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:15,760
Speaker 3: like I mentioned, has a crush on Sam, who he

515
00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:20,440
Speaker 3: likes despite her quote unquote reputation which we will get

516
00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:25,760
Speaker 3: into later. He gives her a mixtape, but again she's

517
00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:29,479
Speaker 3: dating this kid named Craig. And then we get that

518
00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:32,760
Speaker 3: scene where he asks mister Paul Rudd about why do

519
00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:37,440
Speaker 3: nice people date the wrong people? And he says, we

520
00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:40,280
Speaker 3: accept the love we think we deserve.

521
00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:43,560
Speaker 1: And then every teenager in the crowd is like wow.

522
00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:49,120
Speaker 3: Meanwhile, Charlie is going with his friends to see Mary

523
00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:54,680
Speaker 3: Elizabeth's live production of Rocky Horror Picture Show. They're going

524
00:29:54,720 --> 00:30:00,320
Speaker 3: to parties together. Charlie is helping Sam study for the SATs, so.

525
00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:03,040
Speaker 6: Many like I someone who works with you, I'm just

526
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:06,480
Speaker 6: I'm just like, how how did they get away with

527
00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:09,400
Speaker 6: performing Rocky like this each time?

528
00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:13,200
Speaker 3: Especially high schoolers? Like this seems like a very involved

529
00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:16,520
Speaker 3: production that would take a lot of time and rehearsals,

530
00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:17,760
Speaker 3: and there's costumes and.

531
00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:21,120
Speaker 1: There doesn't seem like there was an adult involved in

532
00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:23,640
Speaker 1: the entire not to say that kids could not coordinate

533
00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:25,520
Speaker 1: this on their own. Yeah, I was sort of I

534
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:27,640
Speaker 1: just sort of like wrote down like was this what

535
00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:29,400
Speaker 1: the early nineties was? Like?

536
00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:32,920
Speaker 3: I don't think, I mean, the budget for it seems

537
00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:35,920
Speaker 3: pretty hot, Like I don't know, I'm like, yeah, where

538
00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:37,040
Speaker 3: are the adults? Like?

539
00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:41,600
Speaker 1: Also, was I I'm pretty sure that Emma Watson's hair

540
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:48,200
Speaker 1: length changes for just those scenes. Way, okay, yeah, because

541
00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:51,320
Speaker 1: I okay, now I can rest.

542
00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:56,360
Speaker 3: She has significantly longer. Yeah.

543
00:30:56,400 --> 00:31:00,520
Speaker 1: In the play, she's Susan Sarandon, which sure, yes.

544
00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:05,840
Speaker 3: So they're all hanging out, they're exchanging Christmas gifts. Charlie

545
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:08,520
Speaker 3: wants to be a writer when he grows up, so

546
00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:11,400
Speaker 3: Patrick gives him a suit because back in the day,

547
00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:16,360
Speaker 3: great writers always wore great suits, and Sam gives him

548
00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:19,800
Speaker 3: a typewriter. And it's around this point in the movie

549
00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:23,120
Speaker 3: when I realized that it has basically the same premise

550
00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:28,080
Speaker 3: as Almost Famous, because both movies are about like a

551
00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:32,239
Speaker 3: nerdy teen boy who wants to be a writer and

552
00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:36,160
Speaker 3: who loves music, and he falls in love with an

553
00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:39,640
Speaker 3: older girl who has a quote unquote bad reputation and

554
00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:43,240
Speaker 3: who dates shitty older guys. And then the teen boy

555
00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:48,120
Speaker 3: starts piling around with these like cooler people who introduce

556
00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:52,240
Speaker 3: him to sex, drugs, and rock and roll, And I'm like, wow,

557
00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:54,040
Speaker 3: that is both of these movies.

558
00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:57,719
Speaker 1: This is kind of like a more the Pittsburgh version

559
00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:02,200
Speaker 1: of that exactly, but yeah, there is, I mean, and

560
00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:04,680
Speaker 1: we'll talk about this too, but like both of those

561
00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:08,760
Speaker 1: the young men that are the leads of those movies. Yeah,

562
00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:11,160
Speaker 1: it's like made to seem like, oh, it's they're so

563
00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:14,600
Speaker 1: accepting that they would be interested in like a girl

564
00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:16,840
Speaker 1: who quote unquote gets around or all the you know,

565
00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:21,000
Speaker 1: kind of bizarre phrasing you here, which, well, okay, we'll

566
00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:21,760
Speaker 1: get back to it.

567
00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:27,040
Speaker 3: Right, right, right, And then Sam takes Charlie aside and

568
00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:31,040
Speaker 3: asks if he has ever kissed a girl, and he's like,

569
00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:38,280
Speaker 3: he no, So she kisses him and he's like, oh.

570
00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:42,320
Speaker 5: I'm gonna interject very quickly. Yeah, the book is is

571
00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:43,560
Speaker 5: so much more endearing.

572
00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:46,600
Speaker 6: The book is a lot more endearing because like Sam

573
00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:49,440
Speaker 6: talks about like and they briefly mentioned it in this

574
00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:51,640
Speaker 6: scene of the movie too, but but yeah, she talks

575
00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:55,200
Speaker 6: about how her how her first kiss was with someone

576
00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:59,280
Speaker 6: that her father knew that was significantly older, so there

577
00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:02,000
Speaker 6: was abuse going on in the house and she's crying

578
00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:04,760
Speaker 6: and Charlie is comforting her, and then and she's like,

579
00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:07,080
Speaker 6: I want your first kiss to be with someone who

580
00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:09,640
Speaker 6: actually loves you, because I didn't get that right. And

581
00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:11,840
Speaker 6: it's so much more endearing, and like it's so it

582
00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:14,160
Speaker 6: does disappoint me that, like this scene in the movie

583
00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:18,760
Speaker 6: is more so colored with like flirty, chill pixie dream

584
00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:20,120
Speaker 6: girl things.

585
00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:22,120
Speaker 1: And it's right, Yeah, the way you're describing it sounds

586
00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:24,360
Speaker 1: really this does make you want to read the book.

587
00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:28,120
Speaker 1: It sounds like a very sweet book. I mean, yeah,

588
00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:31,600
Speaker 1: that seems like it's certainly not like I stand out

589
00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:35,160
Speaker 1: like bad version of a scene like that, but it

590
00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:38,360
Speaker 1: sounds like it was written a little differently. That's interesting.

591
00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:45,360
Speaker 3: Yeah. So yeah, they have a kiss, and then it's

592
00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:49,960
Speaker 3: Charlie's birthday, which is the same day as Christmas Eve,

593
00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:56,400
Speaker 3: his brother Chris comes home from Penn State for the holidays, plus.

594
00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:59,760
Speaker 5: The same day that Aunt Helen dies, yes many years.

595
00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:04,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know if I've mentioned Aunt Helen yet,

596
00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:07,080
Speaker 3: but we have been getting a few flashbacks throughout the

597
00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:11,560
Speaker 3: movie of young Charlie when he's probably like six or

598
00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:16,720
Speaker 3: seven or some age around there, and his aunt Helen

599
00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:21,840
Speaker 3: played by Melanie Lynsky, who Charlie mentions was his favorite

600
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:26,520
Speaker 3: person in the world and who we learn died in

601
00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:31,160
Speaker 3: a car accident on his birthday while she was like

602
00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:34,960
Speaker 3: going to get his birthday gift. And she also refers

603
00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:39,359
Speaker 3: to something being their little secret, but we don't know

604
00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:43,840
Speaker 3: what she's talking about yet. Then Charlie tells his brother

605
00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:47,719
Speaker 3: that he plans to ask Sam out on New Year's Eve,

606
00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:53,880
Speaker 3: but she's kissing that guy, Craig, so he does acid instead.

607
00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:58,080
Speaker 3: He I think, ends up passing out outside like in

608
00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:04,840
Speaker 3: the snow He's hospital. There are more allusions to mental

609
00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:08,680
Speaker 3: health episodes he has had where he was seeing things.

610
00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:14,440
Speaker 3: Some other stuff happens, like Charlie plays Rocky in Mary

611
00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:20,360
Speaker 3: Elizabeth's production of Rocky Horror, which she asks him to

612
00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:24,239
Speaker 3: the Stadie Hawkins Dance. Then she takes him home and

613
00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:27,560
Speaker 3: kisses him and she's like, wow, I can't believe you're

614
00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:32,719
Speaker 3: my boyfriend. And he's like what, And we are like

615
00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:37,440
Speaker 3: why is a senior dating a freshman boy?

616
00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:42,040
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, I'm today. I will not be litigating

617
00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:47,600
Speaker 1: high school at age gaps in dating. I simply refuse

618
00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:54,880
Speaker 1: to enter that discourse. However, However, I love Mary Elizabeth.

619
00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:57,840
Speaker 1: There's like elements of Mary Elizabeth, especially as her story

620
00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:02,080
Speaker 1: goes on, where it's like, oh, it's so visceral and

621
00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:07,879
Speaker 1: like painful to to watch how that relationship goes. And yes, yeah, god,

622
00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:10,280
Speaker 1: there were elements of like Mary Elizabeth. I was like, oh,

623
00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:11,759
Speaker 1: that was what I was like when I was a

624
00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:16,040
Speaker 1: teenage girlfriend. And it's so devastating when you're like, wait,

625
00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:18,000
Speaker 1: you don't want to talk every single second of every

626
00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:19,800
Speaker 1: single day.

627
00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:22,919
Speaker 3: Will Yeah, she's she's a lot.

628
00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:23,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, she's a lot.

629
00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:28,640
Speaker 6: In the in the commentary, May Woman who plays her,

630
00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:31,880
Speaker 6: she she advocated for Mary Elizabeth's hair to look the

631
00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:34,479
Speaker 6: way that it does. Originally, Steven Schabaski was like nah,

632
00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:36,319
Speaker 6: and then and then, and then he was like, oh no,

633
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:37,200
Speaker 6: actually this does work.

634
00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:39,520
Speaker 1: Okay, nice, Oh that's the best.

635
00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:44,480
Speaker 3: So Charlie kind of gets trapped into this relationship that

636
00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:47,520
Speaker 3: he didn't even know he was in at first. Yeah,

637
00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:50,320
Speaker 3: and he doesn't know how to tell her that he

638
00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:53,680
Speaker 3: does not want to go out with her. It's almost

639
00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:58,600
Speaker 3: like he sees her and he's like her, that's an

640
00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:02,200
Speaker 3: arrested development reference. And then he effectively breaks up with

641
00:37:02,239 --> 00:37:06,080
Speaker 3: her during a game of Truth or Dare when Patrick

642
00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:09,280
Speaker 3: dares Charlie to kiss the prettiest girl in the room.

643
00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:12,520
Speaker 1: So this scene, it's so stressful.

644
00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:17,640
Speaker 3: So Charlie kisses Sam instead of Mary Elizabeth, who is

645
00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:22,640
Speaker 3: sitting right there, and everyone is really pissed at Charlie

646
00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:26,120
Speaker 3: and none of his friends want to see him for

647
00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:26,600
Speaker 3: a while.

648
00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:32,640
Speaker 6: In this movie, Patrick says a line to Charlie going like,

649
00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:35,759
Speaker 6: you know, there's this thing between Mary Elizabeth and Sam.

650
00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:38,279
Speaker 6: You know, they just have this thing with guys. That

651
00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:42,400
Speaker 6: shit was not in the book. Oh really, that was

652
00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:47,560
Speaker 6: not there. So I'm frustrated by this scene for that reason.

653
00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:50,960
Speaker 5: Weird, like, fuck Charlie, Fuck Patrick. It's awful.

654
00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:55,480
Speaker 3: So the movie makes Sam and Mary Elizabeth kind of

655
00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:58,360
Speaker 3: like frenemies almost in a way that the book didn't.

656
00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:03,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, sucks, I was like because I didn't. Again, that

657
00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:06,200
Speaker 1: was like something that was just said offhand once and

658
00:38:06,239 --> 00:38:10,160
Speaker 1: then that's the only insight that you get into their friendship.

659
00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:11,920
Speaker 1: I mean, that was like one of the I know that,

660
00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:14,160
Speaker 1: like Charlie is the central character of this movie, but

661
00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:17,520
Speaker 1: the fact that you don't get to see women really interact,

662
00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:20,279
Speaker 1: Like you see women near each other often, but you

663
00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:24,280
Speaker 1: don't see them talking to each other often, which is

664
00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:26,960
Speaker 1: technically a huge focus of our show. But it was

665
00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:30,239
Speaker 1: but I hated that that. I hate that that's kind

666
00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:33,839
Speaker 1: of the only insight you get into Sam and Mary

667
00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:37,560
Speaker 1: Elizabeth's friendship because we're like they've known each other their

668
00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:40,359
Speaker 1: whole lives and this is like, the the only fact

669
00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:43,560
Speaker 1: you get about this friendship is that they've like clashed

670
00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:47,759
Speaker 1: over guys, which is like the most lazy, trite way

671
00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:51,920
Speaker 1: to Yeah, right, that's that's so weird that that was added,

672
00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:56,000
Speaker 1: like especially because it's like Stephen Shrubowsky added it, right,

673
00:38:56,160 --> 00:38:57,439
Speaker 1: and for what reason? Yeah?

674
00:38:57,480 --> 00:39:00,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, it wasn't even in his original source Mato and

675
00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:02,000
Speaker 3: he's like if.

676
00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:02,800
Speaker 1: They made it worse?

677
00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:06,640
Speaker 6: Yeah, And then in that commentary, May Whitman was like, oh,

678
00:39:06,680 --> 00:39:08,880
Speaker 6: this was helpful for my character, and I'm.

679
00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:12,200
Speaker 3: Like, no, no, this is no may.

680
00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:21,560
Speaker 1: Man. God, I love I feel like Waymitman. May Whitman

681
00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:26,360
Speaker 1: doesn't get the credit she deserves for having like range,

682
00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:28,200
Speaker 1: She's got, she's got real range.

683
00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:35,440
Speaker 3: She's a past yes indeed. Okay. So meanwhile Patrick's secret boyfriend, Brad,

684
00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:42,640
Speaker 3: Brad's dad catches them twogether so they cannot see each

685
00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:47,600
Speaker 3: other anymore, and a physical fight breaks out between Patrick

686
00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:53,000
Speaker 3: and Brad at school and the like jock guys start

687
00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:58,560
Speaker 3: punching Patrick, but Charlie steps in. He seems to kind

688
00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:01,880
Speaker 3: of black out, and and when he comes to, he

689
00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:05,520
Speaker 3: has beaten the guys who were ganging up on Patrick,

690
00:40:06,200 --> 00:40:10,600
Speaker 3: effectively saving Patrick. Because of this because of like Charlie's

691
00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:15,160
Speaker 3: standing up for Patrick, his friends forgive him and let

692
00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:20,239
Speaker 3: Charlie back into the friend group. One night, Patrick confides

693
00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:24,840
Speaker 3: in Charlie about what happened between him and Brad, and

694
00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:31,680
Speaker 3: then Patrick's surprise kisses Charlie. He then apologizes, and Patrick

695
00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:35,680
Speaker 3: just seems very lonely and upset. I'm not excusing him

696
00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:39,360
Speaker 3: surprise kissing someone, but that's kind of the context of

697
00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:43,040
Speaker 3: that scene. But then things start to look up for

698
00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:47,879
Speaker 3: everyone because Mary Elizabeth has a new boyfriend she got

699
00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:51,960
Speaker 3: into Harvard. Sam is going to Penn State, Patrick is

700
00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:56,680
Speaker 3: going to the University of Washington. Everyone is excited and

701
00:40:56,719 --> 00:41:00,960
Speaker 3: they're doing great, except for Charlie, whose mental health seems

702
00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:04,239
Speaker 3: to be getting worse, especially knowing that all of his

703
00:41:04,239 --> 00:41:07,719
Speaker 3: friends are about to leave. Then it's the last day

704
00:41:07,719 --> 00:41:10,799
Speaker 3: of school. Sam is getting ready to head to Penn

705
00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:14,319
Speaker 3: State for the summer semester, which, by the way, is

706
00:41:14,320 --> 00:41:17,319
Speaker 3: something that Penn State made me do too. They're like, oh,

707
00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:19,440
Speaker 3: if you want to start at main campus, Oh, that's

708
00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:22,160
Speaker 3: a thing. Yeah, I think they I honestly think it's

709
00:41:22,160 --> 00:41:24,759
Speaker 3: actually a money making scheme, but they're just like, we

710
00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:28,279
Speaker 3: don't think you're ready for main campus yet, So you

711
00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:31,399
Speaker 3: can either come in the summer or you can go

712
00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:34,880
Speaker 3: to a branch campus for two years and then transfer

713
00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:36,000
Speaker 3: to main campus.

714
00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:36,720
Speaker 5: Wow.

715
00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:39,799
Speaker 3: And they made it seem like my grades weren't good

716
00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:42,480
Speaker 3: enough or something or I don't even know what, but

717
00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:44,879
Speaker 3: they're like, we don't think you're going to succeed here

718
00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:48,520
Speaker 3: unless you give us extra money. So I went to

719
00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:53,000
Speaker 3: I had to start early and go in the summer,

720
00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:55,239
Speaker 3: and I was so unhappy about it, But then when

721
00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:57,040
Speaker 3: I was there, I was like, oh, wait, I hate

722
00:41:57,040 --> 00:41:58,840
Speaker 3: my hometown and this is much better.

723
00:41:59,239 --> 00:42:03,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, which I I do like that. They basically have

724
00:42:03,239 --> 00:42:06,040
Speaker 1: Sam have that reaction Whereason it's like, yeah, the second

725
00:42:06,040 --> 00:42:08,279
Speaker 1: I left her, my life got way better, but it's

726
00:42:08,360 --> 00:42:12,160
Speaker 1: nice to see you. It's like, yeah, that's the best

727
00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:12,800
Speaker 1: case scenario.

728
00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:18,640
Speaker 3: Okay. So Sam is getting ready to head to Penn

729
00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:23,000
Speaker 3: State and she's like, Charlie, why didn't you ever ask

730
00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:27,880
Speaker 3: me out? And he's like, I'm shy, and then he

731
00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:32,760
Speaker 3: kisses her and then they have sex. I think it's implied.

732
00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:34,640
Speaker 5: In the book.

733
00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:39,839
Speaker 7: They start doing so, and then as she's touching him,

734
00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:43,600
Speaker 7: he's like stop and starts crying and he's like I'm

735
00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:47,960
Speaker 7: not I'm not ready and we know why right.

736
00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:51,480
Speaker 3: In the movie, they kiss and then that does happen

737
00:42:51,520 --> 00:42:54,400
Speaker 3: where she like puts her hand on his knee or

738
00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:56,840
Speaker 3: something and he's like he kind of withdraws and she's like,

739
00:42:56,920 --> 00:42:59,080
Speaker 3: what's the matter and he's like nothing, and then they

740
00:42:59,120 --> 00:43:02,320
Speaker 3: start kissing again, and then they kind of like collapse

741
00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:04,759
Speaker 3: onto the bed, and then the camera pans up the

742
00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:07,320
Speaker 3: way the camera pans up when people start having sex

743
00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:10,160
Speaker 3: in a movie. So I'm like, I think it's implied

744
00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:13,520
Speaker 3: that they have sex, but it's not totally clear either way.

745
00:43:14,040 --> 00:43:18,000
Speaker 3: They say goodbye the next day and she leaves, which

746
00:43:18,120 --> 00:43:22,240
Speaker 3: kind of triggers a flood of memories for Charlie, things

747
00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:26,160
Speaker 3: from his recent past, as well as more flashbacks of

748
00:43:26,400 --> 00:43:31,239
Speaker 3: Aunt Helen which indicate that she was sexually abusing him

749
00:43:31,440 --> 00:43:36,719
Speaker 3: as a child. He starts crying and having a breakdown.

750
00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:40,879
Speaker 3: He is blaming himself for his aunt dying because again

751
00:43:40,920 --> 00:43:43,320
Speaker 3: she was killed on her way to go get his gift.

752
00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:46,720
Speaker 3: But he's like, what if I wanted her to die

753
00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:50,440
Speaker 3: because of the abuse, And then we cut to him

754
00:43:50,520 --> 00:43:55,160
Speaker 3: in the hospital where, with the help of doctor Joan Cusack,

755
00:43:56,200 --> 00:43:57,200
Speaker 3: he starts.

756
00:43:56,840 --> 00:44:01,359
Speaker 1: To put a fun twist or we're okay. Great.

757
00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:08,120
Speaker 3: So he starts to acknowledge what happened and he starts

758
00:44:08,160 --> 00:44:13,200
Speaker 3: to heal. He goes back home with his family. Sam

759
00:44:13,239 --> 00:44:16,240
Speaker 3: comes home from Penn State to visit after a few months,

760
00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:21,439
Speaker 3: and she's like, I finally found the Tunnel song. It's

761
00:44:21,520 --> 00:44:23,480
Speaker 3: by someone I don't know if you've heard of him,

762
00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:24,440
Speaker 3: David Bowie.

763
00:44:24,920 --> 00:44:27,840
Speaker 6: Anyway, the Tunnel Song is different than the book. I

764
00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:30,480
Speaker 6: forget which one, but I know it's definitely.

765
00:44:30,160 --> 00:44:33,319
Speaker 3: Not a tape something that they couldn't get the rights to.

766
00:44:34,440 --> 00:44:37,960
Speaker 1: I read it was Landslide by fleetwood Man, which I

767
00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:40,440
Speaker 1: think would actually be kind. I don't know. I'm sure

768
00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:42,520
Speaker 1: it would be like beautiful, but I think it also

769
00:44:42,640 --> 00:44:45,319
Speaker 1: be I don't know. I think they went with a

770
00:44:45,360 --> 00:44:49,360
Speaker 1: good song for her for it. Landlid's too slow for

771
00:44:49,400 --> 00:44:50,600
Speaker 1: a Ton's a bit of a downer.

772
00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:52,080
Speaker 3: That's true.

773
00:44:52,280 --> 00:44:54,760
Speaker 6: Also in the book, they're not like standing up against

774
00:44:54,800 --> 00:45:00,000
Speaker 6: the car either, so really gotta make it worthy. I guess, yeah,

775
00:45:00,640 --> 00:45:03,719
Speaker 6: have stunt coordinators with them standing against the car.

776
00:45:04,880 --> 00:45:07,319
Speaker 3: It seems so dangerous, Like you said, Jamie, a head

777
00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:08,720
Speaker 3: could pop off at any moment.

778
00:45:08,920 --> 00:45:11,239
Speaker 5: Yeah. Throughout the commentary they were all like, don't try

779
00:45:11,320 --> 00:45:12,840
Speaker 5: this at home. There was a harness.

780
00:45:14,840 --> 00:45:16,560
Speaker 1: I want to listen to the commentary now it sounds

781
00:45:16,640 --> 00:45:17,600
Speaker 1: very wholesome.

782
00:45:19,600 --> 00:45:22,120
Speaker 3: So anyway, they go through the tunnel again and now

783
00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:27,200
Speaker 3: it's Charlie's turn to stand up as David Bowie is playing.

784
00:45:27,680 --> 00:45:32,319
Speaker 3: And that is the end of the movie. So let's

785
00:45:32,360 --> 00:45:35,120
Speaker 3: take a quick break and we'll come back to discuss,

786
00:45:42,320 --> 00:45:44,080
Speaker 3: and we're.

787
00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:50,080
Speaker 1: Back, baby. I just wanted to before we get into

788
00:45:50,560 --> 00:45:55,279
Speaker 1: the discussion, just acknowledge that this is the movie that

789
00:45:55,560 --> 00:45:59,000
Speaker 1: made as Ra Miller a star. And I don't know,

790
00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:01,719
Speaker 1: it's like often difficult to like know how to like

791
00:46:02,200 --> 00:46:04,600
Speaker 1: address stuff like this on our show and then just

792
00:46:04,640 --> 00:46:08,120
Speaker 1: go into the conversation. But like, we are very well

793
00:46:08,160 --> 00:46:14,359
Speaker 1: aware of the allegations and just proven abuses that Ezra

794
00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:19,040
Speaker 1: Miller that have surfaced about Azra Miller. We're going to

795
00:46:19,120 --> 00:46:22,680
Speaker 1: include a link in the description if you're not aware,

796
00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:24,799
Speaker 1: and do you want to sort of be brought up

797
00:46:24,840 --> 00:46:27,800
Speaker 1: to speed. I don't think that this is like really

798
00:46:27,840 --> 00:46:31,719
Speaker 1: the place to go into things in detail, but yeah,

799
00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:35,840
Speaker 1: I think it's worth acknowledging that, like Azra Miller, it

800
00:46:35,840 --> 00:46:40,160
Speaker 1: seems like a pretty spectacularly abusive person and has benefited

801
00:46:40,200 --> 00:46:44,120
Speaker 1: from so much privilege that they are still as we

802
00:46:44,120 --> 00:46:46,880
Speaker 1: were recording, like the Flash came out this weekend and

803
00:46:46,920 --> 00:46:51,480
Speaker 1: they're still, you know, headlining these huge banner movies.

804
00:46:52,320 --> 00:46:54,880
Speaker 3: And at the time of this recording, the director of

805
00:46:54,920 --> 00:46:58,080
Speaker 3: the Flash is like, yeah, I know all about the

806
00:46:58,120 --> 00:47:01,840
Speaker 3: stuff that Asra did, but I have no an attention

807
00:47:02,280 --> 00:47:05,640
Speaker 3: of recasting them, no like comment. They are going to

808
00:47:05,719 --> 00:47:11,320
Speaker 3: stay in the Flash series. So it's the classic Hollywood

809
00:47:11,360 --> 00:47:16,600
Speaker 3: story of abusers allowing to continue having a career because

810
00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:20,919
Speaker 3: people don't want to hold people accountable.

811
00:47:20,560 --> 00:47:25,920
Speaker 1: Well, and particularly white actors being shielded right from any consequence.

812
00:47:26,960 --> 00:47:30,560
Speaker 1: So I just wanted to acknowledge that at the top. Yes,

813
00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:31,399
Speaker 1: and is.

814
00:47:31,360 --> 00:47:31,919
Speaker 5: There a link?

815
00:47:32,120 --> 00:47:33,800
Speaker 6: Is there going to be a link available for Nicholas

816
00:47:33,800 --> 00:47:36,239
Speaker 6: Brown too? Because I had no idea until y'all mentioned it.

817
00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:39,799
Speaker 3: Yes, Yes, we will definitely include a link. And what

818
00:47:39,920 --> 00:47:44,000
Speaker 3: I noticed is that it hasn't been covered by the

819
00:47:44,040 --> 00:47:49,560
Speaker 3: bigger media outlets, which I wonder why that is. But yeah,

820
00:47:49,600 --> 00:47:52,640
Speaker 3: it feels like it's been kind of swept under the rug.

821
00:47:53,080 --> 00:47:56,200
Speaker 1: It was very Yeah, it did get It felt very

822
00:47:56,239 --> 00:47:59,080
Speaker 1: like media timing, like got swept under the rug because

823
00:47:59,160 --> 00:48:03,600
Speaker 1: Succession was currently airing, and now that succession is over,

824
00:48:03,719 --> 00:48:08,440
Speaker 1: it's like, okay, can we discuss this now, like for

825
00:48:08,560 --> 00:48:11,400
Speaker 1: fuck's sake? Anyways, Well, we'll include both of those links.

826
00:48:11,719 --> 00:48:15,560
Speaker 1: And there's yeah, elements of this movie that certainly age

827
00:48:15,920 --> 00:48:21,360
Speaker 1: like milk, those casting choices being two of them. Anyways,

828
00:48:21,520 --> 00:48:23,200
Speaker 1: as far as the movie goes, MAYA, where would you

829
00:48:23,880 --> 00:48:27,480
Speaker 1: like to start the discussion? Does anything jump out at you?

830
00:48:28,680 --> 00:48:32,560
Speaker 6: The scene where Charlie's on phone with his sister and

831
00:48:32,960 --> 00:48:35,640
Speaker 6: she's like, get the police to my house, Like.

832
00:48:36,360 --> 00:48:40,160
Speaker 5: Oh my god, oh my god, it's so weird.

833
00:48:40,200 --> 00:48:42,040
Speaker 6: How Like when I was younger watching this movie, I

834
00:48:42,080 --> 00:48:44,439
Speaker 6: didn't I didn't think anything of it. And then now

835
00:48:44,480 --> 00:48:47,680
Speaker 6: I watched this movie and im and I'm just like, oh,

836
00:48:47,719 --> 00:48:50,960
Speaker 6: this movie is so white. If this featured a black family,

837
00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:54,520
Speaker 6: this would not have gone well. And it's so weird.

838
00:48:54,840 --> 00:48:58,520
Speaker 6: Like the American Association of Suicide Prevention did a study

839
00:48:58,680 --> 00:49:03,120
Speaker 6: on entertain media and suicidality, and the majority of folks

840
00:49:03,120 --> 00:49:06,560
Speaker 6: that are typically showcased are white. And typically when black

841
00:49:06,560 --> 00:49:10,359
Speaker 6: people are are showcased, they're not showcased having like a

842
00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:14,040
Speaker 6: healing art or anything like that. Whereas Charlie here gets

843
00:49:14,040 --> 00:49:16,880
Speaker 6: one and of course, like all these positive interactions with

844
00:49:16,920 --> 00:49:17,480
Speaker 6: law enforcement.

845
00:49:17,560 --> 00:49:18,400
Speaker 5: And in the book.

846
00:49:18,200 --> 00:49:22,560
Speaker 6: Too, like he Charlie talks extensively about the nice cop

847
00:49:22,600 --> 00:49:26,640
Speaker 6: who comforted his mom having to report the death of

848
00:49:26,680 --> 00:49:30,000
Speaker 6: his aunt or whatever, and like god in the in

849
00:49:30,080 --> 00:49:32,560
Speaker 6: the commentary, they're all like, oh, look who made a

850
00:49:32,600 --> 00:49:35,000
Speaker 6: cameo appearance Emma Watson's bodyguard.

851
00:49:35,040 --> 00:49:40,840
Speaker 5: Ooh, former NYPD ooh, and it's at Yeah, it's a gross.

852
00:49:41,480 --> 00:49:45,440
Speaker 6: So every aspect of like law enforcement that's infiltrated in

853
00:49:45,520 --> 00:49:46,640
Speaker 6: the book in the film do.

854
00:49:46,680 --> 00:49:48,200
Speaker 5: Not sit right with me.

855
00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:52,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, there was a lot of course. Yeah, that's

856
00:49:53,200 --> 00:49:56,160
Speaker 1: I was curious of like how that was covered in

857
00:49:56,200 --> 00:49:58,440
Speaker 1: the book as well. I mean I guess like the

858
00:49:58,480 --> 00:50:01,520
Speaker 1: further back you go probably the more lightened it goes. Yeah,

859
00:50:01,560 --> 00:50:03,239
Speaker 1: because that that I feel like that is like a

860
00:50:03,280 --> 00:50:07,440
Speaker 1: showing of like the writer's hand as coming from privilege,

861
00:50:07,520 --> 00:50:11,000
Speaker 1: especially being white and also being uh what we see

862
00:50:11,040 --> 00:50:13,120
Speaker 1: in a lot of teen movies where this movie isn't

863
00:50:13,120 --> 00:50:17,239
Speaker 1: an exception where it's like they're from like a wealthy suburb, right,

864
00:50:17,560 --> 00:50:21,400
Speaker 1: doesn't mean they don't have problems, but like another wealthy suburb,

865
00:50:21,880 --> 00:50:24,080
Speaker 1: big mansion party, teenager kind of movie.

866
00:50:24,400 --> 00:50:27,640
Speaker 6: Yes, And then Charlie says like, oh, like, oh, you

867
00:50:27,640 --> 00:50:30,040
Speaker 6: gotta get me out of here. I can't afford being

868
00:50:30,200 --> 00:50:32,560
Speaker 6: hospitalized in joke. He's like, oh, don't worry about that.

869
00:50:32,640 --> 00:50:36,040
Speaker 6: I'm like, the right, yes, I'm gonna work about this.

870
00:50:36,760 --> 00:50:40,279
Speaker 1: What it's like, Yeah, And I.

871
00:50:40,239 --> 00:50:42,200
Speaker 5: Remember thinking that when I was younger too.

872
00:50:42,239 --> 00:50:44,160
Speaker 6: I remember thinking that as a teenager, that being my

873
00:50:44,200 --> 00:50:46,560
Speaker 6: main critique as a teenager, I like the fuck, yes.

874
00:50:48,480 --> 00:50:52,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's something that I wonder how Stephen. I read

875
00:50:52,719 --> 00:50:55,759
Speaker 1: a few retrospective interviews, but I didn't see that specific

876
00:50:55,880 --> 00:50:57,759
Speaker 1: point come up, and I was kind of hoping that

877
00:50:57,800 --> 00:50:59,960
Speaker 1: it would because I do think that, like, yeah, I mean,

878
00:51:00,160 --> 00:51:05,160
Speaker 1: the cops are bad at everything, perpetuate harm at every level,

879
00:51:05,280 --> 00:51:09,239
Speaker 1: but like specific like are uniquely bad at dealing with

880
00:51:09,320 --> 00:51:13,360
Speaker 1: mental health crises. It's like that's well known and I

881
00:51:13,360 --> 00:51:15,080
Speaker 1: don't know. I don't know even though it's framed in

882
00:51:15,080 --> 00:51:17,400
Speaker 1: the movie. You're like, how could this possibly be helpful?

883
00:51:17,760 --> 00:51:22,600
Speaker 1: Like they're kicking in the door and scaring him, but right, yeah,

884
00:51:22,680 --> 00:51:26,359
Speaker 1: the way that, I don't know, I'm curious how what

885
00:51:26,440 --> 00:51:29,680
Speaker 1: you think is because I feel like this movie has

886
00:51:29,760 --> 00:51:32,040
Speaker 1: its heart in the right place in like wanting to

887
00:51:32,400 --> 00:51:38,200
Speaker 1: address suicidality and wanting to start a discussion about these

888
00:51:38,280 --> 00:51:40,640
Speaker 1: issues in a genuine way. And then yeah, there's like

889
00:51:40,719 --> 00:51:44,840
Speaker 1: elements that it's just like, clearly this perspective is really

890
00:51:44,880 --> 00:51:48,200
Speaker 1: really privileged or or just like not really thought through.

891
00:51:49,560 --> 00:51:53,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, this book was so The book that this movie

892
00:51:53,960 --> 00:51:59,279
Speaker 3: is based on is controversial in the sense that it's

893
00:51:59,320 --> 00:52:03,680
Speaker 3: been banned a lot because of its material. You know,

894
00:52:03,880 --> 00:52:09,560
Speaker 3: it addresses things like suicidal ideation and queerness and drug

895
00:52:09,640 --> 00:52:13,560
Speaker 3: use among teens and different things that you know, conservative

896
00:52:13,920 --> 00:52:16,640
Speaker 3: people and parents are like, I don't want my kids

897
00:52:16,680 --> 00:52:19,480
Speaker 3: reading about this. That's why I appreciate that the book

898
00:52:19,480 --> 00:52:23,879
Speaker 3: and the movie is willing to tackle those things. Because

899
00:52:23,880 --> 00:52:27,720
Speaker 3: a lot of coming of age movies or like teen

900
00:52:27,840 --> 00:52:31,759
Speaker 3: movies are I don't know, they're either kind of like

901
00:52:31,880 --> 00:52:38,600
Speaker 3: milk toast or they aren't necessarily getting into like what

902
00:52:38,680 --> 00:52:41,000
Speaker 3: it's really like to be a teenager.

903
00:52:41,640 --> 00:52:44,719
Speaker 1: But this is a Secret Life of the American teenager

904
00:52:47,320 --> 00:52:51,919
Speaker 1: because Shalen's and not in this movie. She's in most

905
00:52:51,960 --> 00:52:53,759
Speaker 1: of the other ones. Though it's kind of shocking that

906
00:52:53,800 --> 00:52:57,799
Speaker 1: Shalene Woodley isn't in this movie, I know, right, it's

907
00:52:57,840 --> 00:53:00,200
Speaker 1: such as Shaleene Woodley coded movie.

908
00:53:01,280 --> 00:53:07,239
Speaker 3: Right, But my point is like the perspective is so

909
00:53:07,239 --> 00:53:11,400
Speaker 3: so white, and everything is told through this extremely white,

910
00:53:11,640 --> 00:53:17,560
Speaker 3: privileged lens that it isn't a like authentic teen experience

911
00:53:17,719 --> 00:53:21,799
Speaker 3: for so many people. So it's hard to stomach in

912
00:53:22,000 --> 00:53:27,560
Speaker 3: that way because even though again I appreciate its willingness

913
00:53:28,080 --> 00:53:32,400
Speaker 3: to tackle some of the darker aspects of of life,

914
00:53:32,760 --> 00:53:36,960
Speaker 3: it is done so through such a privileged lens.

915
00:53:38,040 --> 00:53:41,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, it definitely like it's and we've talked about this

916
00:53:41,360 --> 00:53:43,040
Speaker 1: on the show before too, where it's like no one

917
00:53:43,160 --> 00:53:47,880
Speaker 1: movie can address every single perspective, but this movie had

918
00:53:48,320 --> 00:53:52,279
Speaker 1: space to address far more than it chose to.

919
00:53:52,600 --> 00:53:52,920
Speaker 5: Yeah.

920
00:53:52,960 --> 00:53:55,880
Speaker 1: Where Yeah, I mean it's like you're in like Pittsburgh

921
00:53:55,920 --> 00:54:00,520
Speaker 1: is a far more diverse city than this movie like

922
00:54:00,600 --> 00:54:03,440
Speaker 1: you to believe there was certainly room for like actually

923
00:54:03,480 --> 00:54:06,680
Speaker 1: building out some of the women that appear in this

924
00:54:06,760 --> 00:54:11,719
Speaker 1: story more. There is room for class diversity within this

925
00:54:11,800 --> 00:54:14,720
Speaker 1: movie that you don't really see except kind of in passing.

926
00:54:15,640 --> 00:54:17,880
Speaker 1: So yeah, it's like it's I feel like this this

927
00:54:18,320 --> 00:54:21,839
Speaker 1: feels very like stepping Stone movie E where it's like okay.

928
00:54:21,719 --> 00:54:24,839
Speaker 5: Oh yeah for sure, yeah.

929
00:54:24,040 --> 00:54:26,400
Speaker 1: Like we'll we'll address these serious issues that should be

930
00:54:26,400 --> 00:54:30,320
Speaker 1: addressed in teen media, but everything else will be surround

931
00:54:30,400 --> 00:54:33,080
Speaker 1: like encased in whiteness and privilege.

932
00:54:33,239 --> 00:54:36,359
Speaker 6: It's like Stephen Tabaski has like had said, like, oh,

933
00:54:36,400 --> 00:54:38,719
Speaker 6: it's such a huge thing in this movie made because

934
00:54:38,760 --> 00:54:41,480
Speaker 6: like movies like this don't get don't get made, and

935
00:54:41,520 --> 00:54:43,960
Speaker 6: like on when I don't want to take away the

936
00:54:44,000 --> 00:54:44,960
Speaker 6: fact that, yes.

937
00:54:44,840 --> 00:54:46,360
Speaker 5: Movies are hard to get made.

938
00:54:46,640 --> 00:54:48,840
Speaker 6: And at the time this movie was made, the actors

939
00:54:48,920 --> 00:54:51,319
Speaker 6: weren't paid as as well as they could have been

940
00:54:51,680 --> 00:54:54,359
Speaker 6: and whatnot, because everyone cared about the movie. And at

941
00:54:54,400 --> 00:54:57,759
Speaker 6: the same time, it's like you you still got into theaters,

942
00:54:57,840 --> 00:55:01,160
Speaker 6: you still have all of these white faces, you still

943
00:55:01,200 --> 00:55:04,520
Speaker 6: received enough critical acclaim to be talked about years later,

944
00:55:04,960 --> 00:55:07,960
Speaker 6: there are very much movies like this still being made.

945
00:55:08,520 --> 00:55:11,960
Speaker 5: So it's it's just do better, truly.

946
00:55:12,120 --> 00:55:15,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, like fucking fucking dear Evan Handsome, I was about

947
00:55:15,360 --> 00:55:17,480
Speaker 1: to say, and then the fact that he clearly did

948
00:55:17,480 --> 00:55:20,400
Speaker 1: not learn very much because he went on to directly

949
00:55:20,520 --> 00:55:25,560
Speaker 1: what black person what like and in many ways, I

950
00:55:25,560 --> 00:55:29,520
Speaker 1: mean I have I honestly like I did not get

951
00:55:29,560 --> 00:55:31,720
Speaker 1: all the way through Dear Evan hants in the movie.

952
00:55:31,760 --> 00:55:33,480
Speaker 1: I was like, I'm out of here. I can't do it.

953
00:55:33,520 --> 00:55:34,600
Speaker 3: I didn't even start it.

954
00:55:34,640 --> 00:55:37,120
Speaker 1: But but it is like, in many ways, like an

955
00:55:37,200 --> 00:55:42,879
Speaker 1: even clumsier attempt to address many of the themes in

956
00:55:43,200 --> 00:55:46,319
Speaker 1: this movie. So you're like, well, I guess we know

957
00:55:46,440 --> 00:55:49,720
Speaker 1: that Steven Schabowski didn't grow as a person between twenty

958
00:55:49,760 --> 00:55:54,719
Speaker 1: twelve and twenty twenty two. Good to know, very very

959
00:55:54,800 --> 00:55:59,080
Speaker 1: bizarre es. Yeah there, maybe someday we'll punish ourselves and

960
00:55:59,080 --> 00:56:01,960
Speaker 1: cover dear Evan Hanson. It could be fun, okay, or not?

961
00:56:02,000 --> 00:56:02,960
Speaker 5: Please invite me back.

962
00:56:03,120 --> 00:56:06,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, it feels like punishment to be like, all right,

963
00:56:06,920 --> 00:56:12,360
Speaker 1: let me same themes, same amount of oppressive, rich white teenagers,

964
00:56:12,680 --> 00:56:15,480
Speaker 1: but now they sing talking about it with y'all.

965
00:56:15,520 --> 00:56:16,759
Speaker 5: I would have a really good time.

966
00:56:16,800 --> 00:56:19,400
Speaker 6: And also I have a book coming out in October,

967
00:56:19,480 --> 00:56:20,400
Speaker 6: so it's like, listen.

968
00:56:20,320 --> 00:56:20,799
Speaker 1: Let's do it.

969
00:56:21,800 --> 00:56:24,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, if you want to be our resident Stephen Chubowski

970
00:56:25,080 --> 00:56:27,480
Speaker 3: guest of by all.

971
00:56:27,320 --> 00:56:29,400
Speaker 1: Means the best.

972
00:56:30,239 --> 00:56:33,239
Speaker 3: The next thing I would like to talk about is

973
00:56:34,520 --> 00:56:41,480
Speaker 3: the several references to Sam's quote unquote bad reputation slash

974
00:56:41,520 --> 00:56:46,520
Speaker 3: shameful history. Where we first learned about it from voice over,

975
00:56:47,080 --> 00:56:50,880
Speaker 3: where Charlie said that he had asked his sister about

976
00:56:51,040 --> 00:56:55,960
Speaker 3: Sam saying that when she was a freshman, the upperclassman

977
00:56:56,400 --> 00:57:00,480
Speaker 3: would get her drunk at parties dot dot dot. I

978
00:57:00,520 --> 00:57:04,839
Speaker 3: guess she had a reputation, the implication there being that

979
00:57:05,480 --> 00:57:08,879
Speaker 3: she would get drunk and then have sex with these

980
00:57:08,880 --> 00:57:11,799
Speaker 3: people at parties. And then Charlie goes on to say,

981
00:57:12,480 --> 00:57:15,440
Speaker 3: but I don't care. I'd hate for her to judge

982
00:57:15,480 --> 00:57:18,680
Speaker 3: me based on what I used to be like and then.

983
00:57:18,680 --> 00:57:20,000
Speaker 1: Not like other boys.

984
00:57:21,960 --> 00:57:24,280
Speaker 3: Fast forward a little bit in that scene where they're

985
00:57:24,320 --> 00:57:27,800
Speaker 3: talking about having their first kiss. This is when Sam

986
00:57:27,840 --> 00:57:31,160
Speaker 3: reveals that her first kiss was when she was eleven,

987
00:57:31,880 --> 00:57:35,400
Speaker 3: and her first kiss was with her dad's boss, so

988
00:57:35,600 --> 00:57:40,280
Speaker 3: an adult man she's eleven. We're like, oh my god,

989
00:57:40,360 --> 00:57:43,680
Speaker 3: that is so awful. Yeah, and then she pushes past it,

990
00:57:43,720 --> 00:57:46,880
Speaker 3: and then she starts talking about how she's like, I

991
00:57:46,960 --> 00:57:48,919
Speaker 3: used to sleep with guys who treated me like shit

992
00:57:49,560 --> 00:57:52,320
Speaker 3: and get wasted all the time, but now I feel

993
00:57:52,400 --> 00:57:54,760
Speaker 3: like I have a chance. So she's like talking about

994
00:57:54,800 --> 00:57:58,360
Speaker 3: like turning her life around. And so the way that

995
00:57:58,400 --> 00:58:02,200
Speaker 3: she talks about her experience and the way that her

996
00:58:02,240 --> 00:58:08,280
Speaker 3: friends seemed to interpret her experience, They're all like, Wow,

997
00:58:08,840 --> 00:58:11,680
Speaker 3: she used to be on a really bad path and

998
00:58:11,720 --> 00:58:15,240
Speaker 3: it was all her fault. But look at her turning around,

999
00:58:15,800 --> 00:58:19,600
Speaker 3: and it's unclear if she was consenting or able to

1000
00:58:19,760 --> 00:58:24,160
Speaker 3: consent to the sex that she was having with these upperclassmen.

1001
00:58:24,520 --> 00:58:27,080
Speaker 1: There's like not enough information, right.

1002
00:58:26,800 --> 00:58:30,480
Speaker 6: And in the in the commentary, Steven Teabaski is all like, oh,

1003
00:58:30,480 --> 00:58:33,200
Speaker 6: it was very important for me to emphasize this redemptive

1004
00:58:33,320 --> 00:58:34,280
Speaker 6: arc for Sam.

1005
00:58:34,360 --> 00:58:39,920
Speaker 5: And I'm like, this feels gross redemption from what exactly.

1006
00:58:39,800 --> 00:58:42,640
Speaker 1: That's because Okay, that was a question that I had

1007
00:58:42,640 --> 00:58:46,919
Speaker 1: about the because I was like, is because on one hand,

1008
00:58:46,960 --> 00:58:50,400
Speaker 1: it's like, Okay, it is not inconceivable to me that

1009
00:58:50,400 --> 00:58:54,600
Speaker 1: that's how teenagers in the early nineties might talk about that,

1010
00:58:55,080 --> 00:58:57,640
Speaker 1: for sure, But if you're gonna do that, then the

1011
00:58:57,720 --> 00:59:01,959
Speaker 1: movie has to like provide some sort of commentary that

1012
00:59:01,960 --> 00:59:04,800
Speaker 1: that was an unfair way for her to be treated

1013
00:59:04,880 --> 00:59:07,680
Speaker 1: and not just like keep but it's clear that Okay, So,

1014
00:59:07,720 --> 00:59:11,240
Speaker 1: like that's just how Steven Chabaski feels, is that, like you,

1015
00:59:11,280 --> 00:59:13,560
Speaker 1: a teenage girl would need redemption.

1016
00:59:13,560 --> 00:59:18,919
Speaker 3: From potentially being having sex regularly assaulted, right, And.

1017
00:59:18,840 --> 00:59:22,000
Speaker 1: It's like, yeah, And also I think it conflates just

1018
00:59:22,040 --> 00:59:24,520
Speaker 1: the way that it's discussed in the movies so generally

1019
00:59:24,680 --> 00:59:29,640
Speaker 1: conflates situations that we're consenting versus not where for me

1020
00:59:29,680 --> 00:59:32,000
Speaker 1: at least, it was really hard to track what they

1021
00:59:32,000 --> 00:59:33,560
Speaker 1: were talking about a lot of the time because she

1022
00:59:34,000 --> 00:59:38,640
Speaker 1: described being assaulted, and then it seems like maybe also

1023
00:59:38,720 --> 00:59:42,920
Speaker 1: she's having like she's it's just like unclear what's going on.

1024
00:59:43,040 --> 00:59:46,080
Speaker 3: Right, Well, the movie frames that that when she's talking

1025
00:59:46,080 --> 00:59:49,960
Speaker 3: about it, she's speaking as though it was consensual. She's like,

1026
00:59:50,040 --> 00:59:52,200
Speaker 3: I used to get drunk and sleep with these guys

1027
00:59:52,200 --> 00:59:55,640
Speaker 3: because I was making bad decisions TIHI, And now she

1028
00:59:55,720 --> 01:00:01,040
Speaker 3: feels all this shame attached to it, which so the

1029
01:00:01,080 --> 01:00:05,200
Speaker 3: movie's framing from her point of view, the sex she

1030
01:00:05,680 --> 01:00:09,520
Speaker 3: had was consensual, which may or may not be true,

1031
01:00:09,560 --> 01:00:13,880
Speaker 3: like there's a spectrum of drunkenness where at least for me, yeah,

1032
01:00:13,920 --> 01:00:17,640
Speaker 3: you can still consent, and it is not clear where

1033
01:00:17,920 --> 01:00:18,280
Speaker 3: we just.

1034
01:00:18,320 --> 01:00:19,440
Speaker 1: Don't have enough information.

1035
01:00:19,520 --> 01:00:23,200
Speaker 3: We just don't have enough information. But even if she

1036
01:00:23,600 --> 01:00:27,320
Speaker 3: was consenting, there's still a power in balance where it's

1037
01:00:27,400 --> 01:00:30,320
Speaker 3: she was a freshman, so she's like fourteen, and we're

1038
01:00:30,320 --> 01:00:35,360
Speaker 3: talking about upperclassmen, so may you know probably like sixteen, seventeen,

1039
01:00:35,720 --> 01:00:39,800
Speaker 3: maybe eighteen year old like junior seniors were led to believe,

1040
01:00:39,960 --> 01:00:45,320
Speaker 3: so there's still a significant power and balance here. The

1041
01:00:45,360 --> 01:00:50,840
Speaker 3: point is the movie makes it seem like she was

1042
01:00:51,200 --> 01:00:55,000
Speaker 3: just making careless decisions and it's all her fault, and

1043
01:00:55,760 --> 01:01:00,200
Speaker 3: now she's turning her life around and her friends are like, oh, wow,

1044
01:01:00,600 --> 01:01:03,360
Speaker 3: that was a pretty shameful time of your past, but

1045
01:01:04,120 --> 01:01:06,240
Speaker 3: we're not gonna judge you for it. You know, you're

1046
01:01:06,280 --> 01:01:09,880
Speaker 3: you're turning yourself around now, so it's okay, right, That's

1047
01:01:09,920 --> 01:01:14,040
Speaker 3: how the movie feels. That's clearly how Stephen Schabowski, yeah, feels.

1048
01:01:14,280 --> 01:01:17,960
Speaker 6: Apparently said, and Jamie, I want to honor what you

1049
01:01:18,200 --> 01:01:20,280
Speaker 6: said about like not wanting to get too much into

1050
01:01:20,320 --> 01:01:21,800
Speaker 6: like high school age gap discourse.

1051
01:01:21,800 --> 01:01:22,840
Speaker 5: I do want to honor that.

1052
01:01:23,040 --> 01:01:27,080
Speaker 6: And it's just very telling about what what high schoolers

1053
01:01:27,120 --> 01:01:30,680
Speaker 6: tend to go through whenever you're seeking friendships, and oftentimes

1054
01:01:30,680 --> 01:01:32,720
Speaker 6: with those age gaps, it's all like, oh, you seem

1055
01:01:32,800 --> 01:01:36,320
Speaker 6: so mature for your age, and it's like and how

1056
01:01:36,360 --> 01:01:38,800
Speaker 6: that creates a sense of trauma. And also it's like,

1057
01:01:39,680 --> 01:01:42,320
Speaker 6: if I seem mature for my age, that also comes

1058
01:01:42,360 --> 01:01:45,160
Speaker 6: from trauma, and you're just putting on more trauma by

1059
01:01:45,240 --> 01:01:48,880
Speaker 6: being my friend or pretending to be my friend and like, yeah.

1060
01:01:48,680 --> 01:01:51,760
Speaker 3: Right, and then so Jamie, to your point about the

1061
01:01:51,840 --> 01:01:56,360
Speaker 3: movie's conflation with like Sam, it's presented as though what

1062
01:01:56,440 --> 01:01:59,240
Speaker 3: she was doing was consensual, it was her choice.

1063
01:01:59,360 --> 01:02:02,800
Speaker 1: And right, we're actually told that much of it is

1064
01:02:02,840 --> 01:02:11,160
Speaker 1: not consensual and is actively abuse and an assault.

1065
01:02:09,600 --> 01:02:13,080
Speaker 3: Is Yeah, because a lot of those moments are accompanied

1066
01:02:13,080 --> 01:02:16,880
Speaker 3: by the flashbacks with young Charlie and Aunt Helen, and

1067
01:02:16,920 --> 01:02:20,160
Speaker 3: then we learn that she was sexually abusing him.

1068
01:02:21,360 --> 01:02:24,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a swing and a miss on a huge issue.

1069
01:02:24,960 --> 01:02:30,560
Speaker 6: Yeah, And with Charlie having this knowledge earlier in the movie,

1070
01:02:31,000 --> 01:02:34,320
Speaker 6: why would you not only hurt Mary Elizabeth, why would

1071
01:02:34,400 --> 01:02:36,080
Speaker 6: you hurt Sam like that?

1072
01:02:36,480 --> 01:02:36,920
Speaker 3: Yeah?

1073
01:02:37,000 --> 01:02:41,680
Speaker 1: Right, it's so like it's there are ways that like

1074
01:02:41,880 --> 01:02:45,760
Speaker 1: characters can make mistakes, but the movie has to like

1075
01:02:45,800 --> 01:02:48,080
Speaker 1: it's the responsibility of the writer in the movie to

1076
01:02:48,480 --> 01:02:51,880
Speaker 1: telegraph that to their very young audience, because it just

1077
01:02:51,920 --> 01:02:57,600
Speaker 1: feels like an endorsement, like a view of consent in

1078
01:02:57,640 --> 01:02:59,919
Speaker 1: a way that's really confusing and like does not jive

1079
01:03:00,160 --> 01:03:02,800
Speaker 1: with a lot of the events and themes of the movie.

1080
01:03:03,360 --> 01:03:06,400
Speaker 1: And just like the theme of how to treat young

1081
01:03:06,440 --> 01:03:07,800
Speaker 1: people having sex at all.

1082
01:03:08,880 --> 01:03:12,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think like Sam feeling the way she feels

1083
01:03:12,880 --> 01:03:17,120
Speaker 3: like all of this shame is completely understandable because people,

1084
01:03:17,280 --> 01:03:20,160
Speaker 3: especially in this time frame, and even when the movie

1085
01:03:20,200 --> 01:03:24,240
Speaker 3: came out in twenty twelve, we were still being conditioned

1086
01:03:24,440 --> 01:03:29,720
Speaker 3: to think that, like, if we were the victim of assault,

1087
01:03:30,080 --> 01:03:31,880
Speaker 3: it was our fault, and you know, all of this

1088
01:03:32,320 --> 01:03:36,920
Speaker 3: victim blaming and slut shaming that's so pervasive because of

1089
01:03:37,040 --> 01:03:40,760
Speaker 3: rape culture. It stands to reason that Sam would be

1090
01:03:40,840 --> 01:03:44,640
Speaker 3: having these feelings of shame and that maybe even some

1091
01:03:44,720 --> 01:03:48,040
Speaker 3: of her friends would be like, yeah, I agree.

1092
01:03:47,880 --> 01:03:48,800
Speaker 1: Reinforcing them.

1093
01:03:48,880 --> 01:03:52,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, because again, we are all products of our environment

1094
01:03:52,160 --> 01:03:56,120
Speaker 3: and we are we've all been conditioned to think this way.

1095
01:03:56,280 --> 01:03:58,520
Speaker 3: But if there was at least one character who was,

1096
01:03:58,600 --> 01:04:01,360
Speaker 3: like maybe someone older or maybe you know, a parent

1097
01:04:01,480 --> 01:04:05,120
Speaker 3: or someone who could say, like, I understand why you

1098
01:04:05,160 --> 01:04:08,320
Speaker 3: feel this way, but you don't need to because like,

1099
01:04:08,480 --> 01:04:11,120
Speaker 3: this is not your fault, you are not to blame here,

1100
01:04:11,800 --> 01:04:17,000
Speaker 3: something that would make it clear that this attitude of

1101
01:04:17,080 --> 01:04:20,640
Speaker 3: like victim blaming and slut shaming is not the right attitude.

1102
01:04:20,640 --> 01:04:23,120
Speaker 3: But that's again, like we said, just clearly what Stephen

1103
01:04:23,280 --> 01:04:26,760
Speaker 3: Chebowski how he feels. So there's nothing in the movie

1104
01:04:26,800 --> 01:04:31,920
Speaker 3: that challenges this, like very toxic mentality.

1105
01:04:31,600 --> 01:04:34,840
Speaker 6: Right, Like even when it comes to Patrick is supposed

1106
01:04:34,840 --> 01:04:37,320
Speaker 6: to be like this cool step step brother to her

1107
01:04:37,440 --> 01:04:39,400
Speaker 6: and like and even he makes comments in the movies

1108
01:04:39,480 --> 01:04:42,240
Speaker 6: such as like I'll look at that toasty outfit. It's

1109
01:04:42,320 --> 01:04:45,560
Speaker 6: not like it's original or anything, or like making comments

1110
01:04:45,600 --> 01:04:47,120
Speaker 6: like like like oh my god, I.

1111
01:04:47,120 --> 01:04:49,840
Speaker 5: Told her, don't make yourself so small. It's like it's.

1112
01:04:51,480 --> 01:04:54,840
Speaker 6: Like when when gay men think it's okay that casual

1113
01:04:54,880 --> 01:04:58,200
Speaker 6: sexism is totally fine, casual sexism is way too casual

1114
01:04:58,240 --> 01:05:00,680
Speaker 6: for me, for Patrick, and it's like it's gross.

1115
01:05:00,960 --> 01:05:05,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, right, yes, yes, very much, I think, like an

1116
01:05:05,760 --> 01:05:09,840
Speaker 1: active trope and also just like bad queer representation on

1117
01:05:09,920 --> 01:05:13,520
Speaker 1: top of that. Yeah, it reminds me so much. It's

1118
01:05:13,560 --> 01:05:16,680
Speaker 1: it's this is such a weird movie to kind of

1119
01:05:16,720 --> 01:05:19,240
Speaker 1: pick apart because I think that like Steven Schabowski in

1120
01:05:19,320 --> 01:05:23,400
Speaker 1: certain cases as a writer, dodges what you kind of

1121
01:05:23,400 --> 01:05:25,480
Speaker 1: come to expect of. Like I think he wrote this

1122
01:05:25,520 --> 01:05:27,680
Speaker 1: book when he was like late twenties, early thirties, but

1123
01:05:27,920 --> 01:05:28,560
Speaker 1: essentially like I.

1124
01:05:28,560 --> 01:05:30,280
Speaker 3: Think he wrote it when he was in college.

1125
01:05:30,960 --> 01:05:36,240
Speaker 1: Okay, well that doesn't really He's writing this script as

1126
01:05:36,280 --> 01:05:39,560
Speaker 1: a man in his forties and still has the same

1127
01:05:39,720 --> 01:05:45,040
Speaker 1: opinions of young women's sexuality and the shame associated with it,

1128
01:05:45,080 --> 01:05:50,360
Speaker 1: and the complete conflation of abuse and consensual sex and

1129
01:05:50,720 --> 01:05:54,800
Speaker 1: not making really an effort to say, yeah, it's just

1130
01:05:55,000 --> 01:05:58,400
Speaker 1: it's it's unfair to Sam's character and then yeah, it's

1131
01:05:58,440 --> 01:06:03,080
Speaker 1: like it, especially because he says himself like that, Oh,

1132
01:06:03,240 --> 01:06:05,240
Speaker 1: isn't it like you know, making it seem like, oh,

1133
01:06:05,360 --> 01:06:09,120
Speaker 1: I'm so creatively generous to have the people in her

1134
01:06:09,160 --> 01:06:11,760
Speaker 1: life forgive her for this, and you're like, well, you

1135
01:06:11,840 --> 01:06:15,320
Speaker 1: haven't even given us enough information to know what you're

1136
01:06:15,360 --> 01:06:19,080
Speaker 1: allegedly forgiving her. Like but no matter what that answer is,

1137
01:06:19,760 --> 01:06:24,360
Speaker 1: she doesn't need forgiveness, like whether it's consensual or especially

1138
01:06:24,440 --> 01:06:27,240
Speaker 1: if it's abuse, Like what are you talking about? Is

1139
01:06:27,280 --> 01:06:28,280
Speaker 1: confusing exactly?

1140
01:06:28,360 --> 01:06:32,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, Like no redemption arc needed, Like it's.

1141
01:06:32,160 --> 01:06:34,320
Speaker 1: Talking about her like she's kylo Ren or some shit

1142
01:06:34,440 --> 01:06:36,200
Speaker 1: Like you're just like what are you talking about?

1143
01:06:36,560 --> 01:06:36,760
Speaker 5: Right?

1144
01:06:37,520 --> 01:06:41,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like she did not do anything wrong. All she

1145
01:06:41,320 --> 01:06:47,360
Speaker 1: wanted to do was get better sat scurse, Right, Yeah,

1146
01:06:47,400 --> 01:06:50,600
Speaker 1: I do like say I think that like that element

1147
01:06:51,000 --> 01:06:53,800
Speaker 1: of Sam is just like she's so disserviced by it,

1148
01:06:53,840 --> 01:06:56,960
Speaker 1: because I do I do like her character.

1149
01:06:58,880 --> 01:07:02,480
Speaker 3: What else would we like to talk about.

1150
01:07:03,440 --> 01:07:06,960
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, so many places we could go. I

1151
01:07:07,000 --> 01:07:10,240
Speaker 1: guess this was I didn't know very much about this movie.

1152
01:07:10,320 --> 01:07:13,800
Speaker 1: I didn't know that. And I think in a teen

1153
01:07:13,920 --> 01:07:19,640
Speaker 1: movie in twenty twelve, having out gay characters that are

1154
01:07:19,920 --> 01:07:25,040
Speaker 1: very beloved and also like main characters was pretty unique

1155
01:07:25,240 --> 01:07:28,960
Speaker 1: at the time, if I'm remembering twenty twelve correctly, And

1156
01:07:29,640 --> 01:07:32,400
Speaker 1: I'm curious of how everyone feels it was handled. It's

1157
01:07:32,400 --> 01:07:34,640
Speaker 1: tricky because it's like you have to put on your

1158
01:07:34,680 --> 01:07:38,560
Speaker 1: twenty twelve goggles and also your early nineties goggles, because

1159
01:07:38,560 --> 01:07:41,720
Speaker 1: there is like inherent I don't know. It felt kind

1160
01:07:41,720 --> 01:07:45,640
Speaker 1: of like a two hander, where on one hand, parts

1161
01:07:45,760 --> 01:07:51,080
Speaker 1: of like Patrick's experience is defined by trauma and rejection

1162
01:07:51,280 --> 01:07:54,320
Speaker 1: of like he is in love with Brad, but they

1163
01:07:54,360 --> 01:07:57,600
Speaker 1: have to keep it secret, partially for stigma and shame,

1164
01:07:57,680 --> 01:08:01,880
Speaker 1: but also for Brad's physical safety from his very religious parents.

1165
01:08:01,960 --> 01:08:06,920
Speaker 1: And that's a story that we've certainly seen over the

1166
01:08:07,000 --> 01:08:09,760
Speaker 1: years and is unfortunately like reflected in so much of

1167
01:08:09,840 --> 01:08:15,960
Speaker 1: history and so but a deeply like traumatic queer love story.

1168
01:08:16,760 --> 01:08:20,679
Speaker 1: But I also feel like Stephen Schabowski did give Patrick

1169
01:08:20,840 --> 01:08:23,599
Speaker 1: a lot of room to just like be a person

1170
01:08:23,880 --> 01:08:27,200
Speaker 1: too and like experienced joy and like that's not the

1171
01:08:27,240 --> 01:08:30,679
Speaker 1: only thing that we know about Patrick. It's a very

1172
01:08:30,960 --> 01:08:36,040
Speaker 1: like and I think that is like also true for

1173
01:08:36,920 --> 01:08:42,960
Speaker 1: Charlie and how his experience being sexually abused as a child.

1174
01:08:43,840 --> 01:08:47,320
Speaker 1: You can see that it clearly influences his life and

1175
01:08:47,920 --> 01:08:51,559
Speaker 1: makes it much more difficult, but it doesn't define his life.

1176
01:08:51,640 --> 01:08:53,559
Speaker 1: And I feel like that is something that you don't

1177
01:08:53,760 --> 01:08:56,960
Speaker 1: really I'm not saying it's perfectly done, but I appreciated

1178
01:08:57,000 --> 01:09:01,080
Speaker 1: the attempts because I feel like so often that is like, well,

1179
01:09:01,120 --> 01:09:05,840
Speaker 1: this is the trauma that defines my entire life and

1180
01:09:06,160 --> 01:09:09,200
Speaker 1: my story outside of this, like who cares?

1181
01:09:09,400 --> 01:09:12,439
Speaker 3: And well, these are male characters, so there does.

1182
01:09:12,320 --> 01:09:17,439
Speaker 8: Not Sam trauma get that same Like yeah, exactly, Yeah,

1183
01:09:17,680 --> 01:09:22,360
Speaker 8: because Sam is defined by her like being like they

1184
01:09:22,520 --> 01:09:24,599
Speaker 8: truly do make it sound like and this is like callous,

1185
01:09:24,600 --> 01:09:26,360
Speaker 8: but they make it sound like she's like cured of

1186
01:09:26,439 --> 01:09:28,599
Speaker 8: being a slut and that's why she gets to go

1187
01:09:28,640 --> 01:09:29,320
Speaker 8: to college.

1188
01:09:29,640 --> 01:09:32,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, shut the fuck up, Like what.

1189
01:09:32,240 --> 01:09:35,360
Speaker 6: Yeah, A lot of like a lot of Stevens Chabaski's

1190
01:09:35,400 --> 01:09:37,880
Speaker 6: dialogue during the commentary was like like.

1191
01:09:37,800 --> 01:09:39,880
Speaker 5: For Patrick, he was like, my number one rule for

1192
01:09:39,960 --> 01:09:42,240
Speaker 5: Patrick is like don't make him a victim, and then

1193
01:09:42,280 --> 01:09:44,439
Speaker 5: like we're talking about Sam, it's like, oh, this redemptive

1194
01:09:44,520 --> 01:09:46,400
Speaker 5: art was just so powerful for me, and it's like,

1195
01:09:46,439 --> 01:09:47,240
Speaker 5: what the fuck.

1196
01:09:49,360 --> 01:09:54,160
Speaker 1: Ridiculous, which which sucks because I generally liked the caretaken

1197
01:09:54,240 --> 01:09:57,360
Speaker 1: so that Patrick was not framed as like a tragic

1198
01:09:57,439 --> 01:10:00,559
Speaker 1: victim and does like this is a horrible eperience and

1199
01:10:00,880 --> 01:10:05,120
Speaker 1: we see that his character moves on, and that's really important.

1200
01:10:05,160 --> 01:10:09,080
Speaker 1: But also it's like it's so clear who Steven Cheboski's

1201
01:10:09,080 --> 01:10:12,280
Speaker 1: comfortable extending that too and who he's not.

1202
01:10:12,640 --> 01:10:13,160
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1203
01:10:13,200 --> 01:10:17,000
Speaker 6: I also question, because the book was written in the nineties,

1204
01:10:17,080 --> 01:10:21,000
Speaker 6: like if if Stephen Schebaski had that terminology at the time,

1205
01:10:21,040 --> 01:10:24,760
Speaker 6: would he have articulated Charlie is as queer because like

1206
01:10:24,800 --> 01:10:27,680
Speaker 6: in the book he talks about how like, oh, my

1207
01:10:27,800 --> 01:10:31,360
Speaker 6: dad's excited that I'm dating Mary Elizabeth because he got

1208
01:10:31,400 --> 01:10:33,559
Speaker 6: concerned that I kept kissing this boy.

1209
01:10:33,320 --> 01:10:34,080
Speaker 5: In the neighborhood.

1210
01:10:34,400 --> 01:10:39,000
Speaker 6: Oh wow, right, And the part where Patrick initially kisses

1211
01:10:39,080 --> 01:10:42,400
Speaker 6: Charlie without his consent, then Charlie goes like, no, really,

1212
01:10:42,439 --> 01:10:45,160
Speaker 6: it's it's okay, and they and Patrick and Charlie spent

1213
01:10:45,200 --> 01:10:47,599
Speaker 6: a lot of time kissing in the car.

1214
01:10:47,640 --> 01:10:48,400
Speaker 5: Night after night.

1215
01:10:48,680 --> 01:10:53,360
Speaker 6: But Sam does interrogate Charlie about this later because Sam's

1216
01:10:53,360 --> 01:10:55,880
Speaker 6: concern was that I don't think you were being a

1217
01:10:55,920 --> 01:10:59,280
Speaker 6: good friend to Patrick because you let him talk about

1218
01:10:59,320 --> 01:11:01,479
Speaker 6: his sorrows and you sat there and said nothing, and

1219
01:11:01,520 --> 01:11:03,680
Speaker 6: you let him kiss you and you did nothing, and

1220
01:11:03,880 --> 01:11:07,559
Speaker 6: you're not establishing your your own boundaries as a friend.

1221
01:11:07,600 --> 01:11:09,280
Speaker 6: You can And then which goes back to the movie

1222
01:11:09,280 --> 01:11:11,000
Speaker 6: where she's like, you can't just sit back and be

1223
01:11:11,280 --> 01:11:12,800
Speaker 6: quiet and call that love.

1224
01:11:12,840 --> 01:11:14,320
Speaker 5: That's not how this works.

1225
01:11:14,880 --> 01:11:19,080
Speaker 1: Right, That's so interesting. It's like, I gotta read this

1226
01:11:19,160 --> 01:11:23,559
Speaker 1: damn book because I like, because I did, I another

1227
01:11:23,680 --> 01:11:26,160
Speaker 1: like twenty twelvey thing where I was like, oh, okay,

1228
01:11:26,200 --> 01:11:31,680
Speaker 1: this movie like it is inclusive of queer people, unlike

1229
01:11:31,800 --> 01:11:34,920
Speaker 1: most teen movies were at this time. But also you're like, oh,

1230
01:11:35,200 --> 01:11:39,080
Speaker 1: this movie subscribes to there are two kinds of people.

1231
01:11:39,120 --> 01:11:41,840
Speaker 1: They're gay or they're straight. But it sounds like the

1232
01:11:42,600 --> 01:11:47,519
Speaker 1: book may have been more inclusive than that, but the

1233
01:11:47,560 --> 01:11:49,920
Speaker 1: movie didn't, or I feel like that. I don't know,

1234
01:11:50,000 --> 01:11:52,719
Speaker 1: at least movie Charlie to me, I thought was coded

1235
01:11:52,800 --> 01:11:54,480
Speaker 1: like pretty straight.

1236
01:11:54,520 --> 01:11:57,840
Speaker 3: Right right right, whereas in the book maybe he's by

1237
01:11:58,520 --> 01:12:03,280
Speaker 3: or somewhere else on the sexuality spectrum, figuring it out,

1238
01:12:03,479 --> 01:12:06,719
Speaker 3: or he's too much of a wallflower to tell someone

1239
01:12:06,760 --> 01:12:07,400
Speaker 3: he doesn't want.

1240
01:12:07,320 --> 01:12:11,600
Speaker 1: To kill them. I don't know identifies as wallflower, use

1241
01:12:11,880 --> 01:12:13,280
Speaker 1: flower like think I think.

1242
01:12:13,120 --> 01:12:15,200
Speaker 6: The term he does use it, and the book is straight.

1243
01:12:15,280 --> 01:12:18,320
Speaker 6: But still it's it's like it's like for me, it's like, is.

1244
01:12:18,680 --> 01:12:22,880
Speaker 3: He though, right, I mean, yeah, he's fourteen, he's yeah,

1245
01:12:22,920 --> 01:12:24,639
Speaker 3: probably still figuring it out.

1246
01:12:24,760 --> 01:12:27,040
Speaker 1: Right, right, And it's like not like fourteen year old

1247
01:12:27,040 --> 01:12:30,360
Speaker 1: in the early nineties were using Oh in the book,

1248
01:12:30,400 --> 01:12:31,080
Speaker 1: he's fifteen.

1249
01:12:31,479 --> 01:12:32,160
Speaker 5: He's fifteen.

1250
01:12:32,200 --> 01:12:33,760
Speaker 6: He had to stay back and great because he had

1251
01:12:33,760 --> 01:12:35,880
Speaker 6: to be hospitalized. He's fifteen, he's fifteen.

1252
01:12:35,640 --> 01:12:37,719
Speaker 3: Okay, okay, why don't they just do that in the movie?

1253
01:12:38,000 --> 01:12:39,600
Speaker 1: Well, I mean not that it makes that much of

1254
01:12:39,640 --> 01:12:43,800
Speaker 1: a difference, but it's like everyone is twenty two, which

1255
01:12:44,560 --> 01:12:47,200
Speaker 1: like you might as well say they're older than four,

1256
01:12:47,240 --> 01:12:49,240
Speaker 1: because I don't know. For some reason, like fourteen for

1257
01:12:49,320 --> 01:12:52,720
Speaker 1: me is like okay, so like a child, and I'm

1258
01:12:52,760 --> 01:12:57,760
Speaker 1: looking at Percy Jackson and it's like, but that's a man.

1259
01:12:58,600 --> 01:13:01,519
Speaker 1: Remember the Percy Jackson moved. For some reason, I did

1260
01:13:01,520 --> 01:13:03,080
Speaker 1: see those even though I think it was technically too

1261
01:13:03,120 --> 01:13:04,760
Speaker 1: old to see them, but I'm like, wow, I'm gonna

1262
01:13:04,760 --> 01:13:06,360
Speaker 1: see Percy Jackson the Lightning.

1263
01:13:06,160 --> 01:13:08,559
Speaker 3: Pief Should we cover them?

1264
01:13:09,360 --> 01:13:12,599
Speaker 1: They kind of sucked to be honest, but like, yeah,

1265
01:13:12,880 --> 01:13:14,599
Speaker 1: I don't know. I also don't really know what happened

1266
01:13:14,600 --> 01:13:16,800
Speaker 1: to Logan Lerman. Every time I hear his name, I'm like,

1267
01:13:17,000 --> 01:13:20,559
Speaker 1: sounds like sure, that's a guy, Like I'll buy it.

1268
01:13:21,080 --> 01:13:24,160
Speaker 5: He's in a show now I'm forgetting the name of it.

1269
01:13:24,439 --> 01:13:26,760
Speaker 6: And I feel bad because I have a friend and

1270
01:13:26,800 --> 01:13:30,599
Speaker 6: a fellow presbit who wrote a beautiful poem about him,

1271
01:13:30,920 --> 01:13:32,960
Speaker 6: and oh yeah, and like the importance of like Jewish

1272
01:13:33,160 --> 01:13:35,639
Speaker 6: representation and like television and stuff, and like.

1273
01:13:35,600 --> 01:13:37,559
Speaker 1: Oh, that's cool. I didn't know he's Jewish.

1274
01:13:37,880 --> 01:13:38,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, I was just like it.

1275
01:13:38,880 --> 01:13:42,160
Speaker 1: There's so many people who are currently famous. There's just

1276
01:13:42,160 --> 01:13:44,759
Speaker 1: like so many white millennial actors in this damn movie.

1277
01:13:44,880 --> 01:13:50,000
Speaker 1: There's like one one shot of Julia Garner and you're like, whoa,

1278
01:13:50,120 --> 01:13:53,160
Speaker 1: she's so famous now. But they're like they mention her

1279
01:13:53,200 --> 01:13:56,559
Speaker 1: in passing where they're like, oh, is she the friend

1280
01:13:57,040 --> 01:14:01,240
Speaker 1: Susan Susan, Yes, she was on that in Anna show.

1281
01:14:01,479 --> 01:14:06,080
Speaker 1: She played Anna Delvi. I don't know that it's an

1282
01:14:06,240 --> 01:14:09,919
Speaker 1: iconically bad Shonda Rhyme show. Angelia Garner plays a scammer

1283
01:14:09,960 --> 01:14:12,880
Speaker 1: and with this horrible accent, and she's always like why

1284
01:14:12,920 --> 01:14:17,200
Speaker 1: are you poor? And you're like like, it's just okay, Well,

1285
01:14:17,320 --> 01:14:19,640
Speaker 1: viewers have invented Okay, you're looking at me like I

1286
01:14:19,640 --> 01:14:22,599
Speaker 1: have six heads. But listeners of this show right now

1287
01:14:22,960 --> 01:14:24,240
Speaker 1: do know what I'm talking about.

1288
01:14:24,320 --> 01:14:26,200
Speaker 3: Okay, I believe you. I believe you.

1289
01:14:26,360 --> 01:14:28,800
Speaker 1: Shondaland will show up to the back to the cast,

1290
01:14:29,120 --> 01:14:29,720
Speaker 1: so help me.

1291
01:14:30,520 --> 01:14:34,880
Speaker 3: I know they will. So to go back to just

1292
01:14:34,960 --> 01:14:41,040
Speaker 3: the movie's approach to queerness, The narrative between Like the

1293
01:14:41,080 --> 01:14:44,800
Speaker 3: book and the movie was perhaps a little ahead of

1294
01:14:44,800 --> 01:14:49,080
Speaker 3: its time in its willingness to have a queer character

1295
01:14:49,760 --> 01:14:55,719
Speaker 3: and fully characterize them, and even though something traumatic happens

1296
01:14:55,720 --> 01:14:58,479
Speaker 3: to them, they are not defined by their trauma, and

1297
01:14:58,520 --> 01:15:02,639
Speaker 3: they are given an ending that is like positive and

1298
01:15:02,960 --> 01:15:05,920
Speaker 3: like it seems as though Patrick has a bright future.

1299
01:15:06,360 --> 01:15:09,599
Speaker 6: He turned the camera to him when Charlie talks about

1300
01:15:09,600 --> 01:15:12,599
Speaker 6: like and everyone's gonna become mothers and fathers, and it's like, yeah,

1301
01:15:12,720 --> 01:15:15,080
Speaker 6: queer people can be parents too, And it's.

1302
01:15:15,280 --> 01:15:25,519
Speaker 1: Like brave twenty twelve, what a time, right, But yeah,

1303
01:15:25,560 --> 01:15:26,040
Speaker 1: I don't know.

1304
01:15:26,160 --> 01:15:29,839
Speaker 3: I guess it's like, like we said, like a stepping

1305
01:15:30,120 --> 01:15:35,679
Speaker 3: stone kind of situation where there's certainly better queer representation now,

1306
01:15:36,160 --> 01:15:40,240
Speaker 3: but you know, for the time, it was maybe a

1307
01:15:40,240 --> 01:15:41,400
Speaker 3: bit ahead.

1308
01:15:41,640 --> 01:15:47,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, above above average, and then I think we should

1309
01:15:47,600 --> 01:15:51,599
Speaker 1: definitely talk about it feels kind of callous to call

1310
01:15:51,640 --> 01:15:53,240
Speaker 1: it a reveal, but that is kind of how it's

1311
01:15:53,240 --> 01:15:56,080
Speaker 1: presented in the story, especially if you're me and you

1312
01:15:56,439 --> 01:15:58,759
Speaker 1: really don't know what happens in the movie The Perks

1313
01:15:58,760 --> 01:16:03,519
Speaker 1: of Being a Wallflower, where you find out at the

1314
01:16:03,760 --> 01:16:05,640
Speaker 1: very end of the movie. It's so weird because it

1315
01:16:05,680 --> 01:16:07,240
Speaker 1: does feel like the movie's about to end, and then

1316
01:16:07,240 --> 01:16:09,800
Speaker 1: you're like, wait, there's twenty minutes what's going on where

1317
01:16:09,840 --> 01:16:15,320
Speaker 1: you find out the aunt who passed away when Charlie

1318
01:16:15,360 --> 01:16:19,559
Speaker 1: is very young had been sexually abusing him up until

1319
01:16:19,920 --> 01:16:23,680
Speaker 1: her death, and that I think it's implied and I'm

1320
01:16:23,720 --> 01:16:26,080
Speaker 1: curious how it's like talked about in the commentary and

1321
01:16:26,120 --> 01:16:29,360
Speaker 1: in the book, that this was a repressed memory that

1322
01:16:29,600 --> 01:16:34,360
Speaker 1: through his experiences in this year, and also like in

1323
01:16:34,400 --> 01:16:37,840
Speaker 1: that moment with Sam where she touches his leg, that

1324
01:16:38,000 --> 01:16:44,000
Speaker 1: it resurfaces and he understandably goes to a very dark

1325
01:16:44,439 --> 01:16:49,679
Speaker 1: place and has to be hospitalized. I yeah, I'm curious

1326
01:16:49,720 --> 01:16:53,200
Speaker 1: of how that was discussed on the commentary.

1327
01:16:53,720 --> 01:16:58,479
Speaker 6: Yeah, in the commentary, the original writing of the script

1328
01:16:58,880 --> 01:17:04,080
Speaker 6: was having their reveal take place like right after Sam

1329
01:17:04,320 --> 01:17:09,040
Speaker 6: first touches Charlie's leg, and then some entertainment had said

1330
01:17:09,120 --> 01:17:11,880
Speaker 6: like push that a little bit farther. We want we

1331
01:17:12,200 --> 01:17:15,360
Speaker 6: don't want this moment for Charlie to be interrupted or

1332
01:17:15,360 --> 01:17:16,400
Speaker 6: like something like that.

1333
01:17:16,960 --> 01:17:20,559
Speaker 1: Interesting. Yeah, that's so. And it's like I don't really

1334
01:17:20,720 --> 01:17:24,559
Speaker 1: know how to feel about it, Like there is an

1335
01:17:24,640 --> 01:17:27,280
Speaker 1: element of that like creative choice of like making it

1336
01:17:27,320 --> 01:17:32,559
Speaker 1: a reveal to be like, hmmm, why is this a twist?

1337
01:17:32,720 --> 01:17:34,479
Speaker 1: And at the end of the movie it's.

1338
01:17:34,360 --> 01:17:36,920
Speaker 5: Similarly similarly comes up in the book Too Real.

1339
01:17:37,560 --> 01:17:39,120
Speaker 1: It's like I don't know. I guess it's like if

1340
01:17:39,160 --> 01:17:41,960
Speaker 1: I'm I genuinely don't know how I feel about it,

1341
01:17:42,000 --> 01:17:45,679
Speaker 1: because in one way, it's like you see Charlie as

1342
01:17:45,880 --> 01:17:48,160
Speaker 1: you know, I feel like it's so I don't know,

1343
01:17:48,200 --> 01:17:51,080
Speaker 1: Like even especially having like gone through the whole process

1344
01:17:51,120 --> 01:17:55,120
Speaker 1: of making Walita podcast and writing and researching that topic

1345
01:17:55,280 --> 01:17:55,960
Speaker 1: so intensely.

1346
01:17:56,040 --> 01:17:59,280
Speaker 6: Another great podcast of yours two. Oh my god, so good,

1347
01:18:00,120 --> 01:18:00,439
Speaker 6: thank you.

1348
01:18:01,360 --> 01:18:04,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is the plug section of the fun and

1349
01:18:05,560 --> 01:18:08,920
Speaker 1: being very lucky to have not experienced that myself. Like,

1350
01:18:09,520 --> 01:18:11,479
Speaker 1: I don't know, I think it can be seen as

1351
01:18:11,479 --> 01:18:13,640
Speaker 1: a good thing that we get to know Charlie's so

1352
01:18:13,840 --> 01:18:18,400
Speaker 1: thoroughly outside of that context, because survivors of that kind

1353
01:18:18,439 --> 01:18:20,559
Speaker 1: of abuse. Again, it's just like, oh, this is the

1354
01:18:20,800 --> 01:18:24,720
Speaker 1: defining event of my life, or that's how it's very

1355
01:18:24,760 --> 01:18:27,800
Speaker 1: often framed. But then it's just like, it does feel

1356
01:18:27,840 --> 01:18:31,000
Speaker 1: so bizarre to have it be like the twist. But

1357
01:18:31,120 --> 01:18:32,840
Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't know what is the How

1358
01:18:32,880 --> 01:18:35,320
Speaker 1: did everyone feel about that? I just I it was

1359
01:18:35,439 --> 01:18:37,559
Speaker 1: it was a choice. It was a choice that was made,

1360
01:18:37,600 --> 01:18:39,519
Speaker 1: and I don't know. It just made me think, I

1361
01:18:39,520 --> 01:18:40,600
Speaker 1: don't know how to feel about it.

1362
01:18:41,520 --> 01:18:48,320
Speaker 3: I'm similarly uncertain, And I think it could be helpful

1363
01:18:48,520 --> 01:18:54,640
Speaker 3: for boys, teenage boys, young men, or any kind of

1364
01:18:54,800 --> 01:18:59,719
Speaker 3: mask presenting person who has experienced this type of abuse,

1365
01:18:59,760 --> 01:19:03,760
Speaker 3: because so often when we think about sexual abuse, it's

1366
01:19:03,800 --> 01:19:09,360
Speaker 3: in reference to women in fems, and it rarely gets

1367
01:19:09,400 --> 01:19:16,639
Speaker 3: explored in media unless you're talking about like spotlight or something.

1368
01:19:17,240 --> 01:19:22,240
Speaker 1: And it's also very rare in media that an adult

1369
01:19:22,320 --> 01:19:27,320
Speaker 1: woman is portrayed as the perpetrator.

1370
01:19:27,600 --> 01:19:29,120
Speaker 3: Right, because it does happen.

1371
01:19:30,760 --> 01:19:34,160
Speaker 1: I've got some not I sounded way too chipper. I

1372
01:19:34,160 --> 01:19:37,479
Speaker 1: was like, I have some stats. They're fucking horrible, but

1373
01:19:37,520 --> 01:19:40,400
Speaker 1: I do have them. This is I found. A piece

1374
01:19:41,560 --> 01:19:46,160
Speaker 1: that appears in the Colorado Coalition Against Sexual Assaults is

1375
01:19:46,160 --> 01:19:50,960
Speaker 1: written in twenty fourteen by Megan McCluskey that talks about

1376
01:19:51,160 --> 01:19:56,120
Speaker 1: the portrayal of csa survivor in Perks of Being a Wallflower.

1377
01:19:56,600 --> 01:19:58,800
Speaker 1: I believe she is talking about the book here, but

1378
01:19:58,840 --> 01:20:01,880
Speaker 1: I just wanted to sort of share this writer feels

1379
01:20:01,920 --> 01:20:06,240
Speaker 1: like it was a pretty solid portrayal of a young

1380
01:20:06,320 --> 01:20:14,320
Speaker 1: person processing that experience. So I have two chunks quote.

1381
01:20:14,560 --> 01:20:16,800
Speaker 1: Charlie concludes in his final letters in Perks that he

1382
01:20:16,840 --> 01:20:19,320
Speaker 1: was sexually abused in early childhood by his aunt, Helen,

1383
01:20:19,360 --> 01:20:22,599
Speaker 1: who is now deceased. Jabowski's decision to feature a male

1384
01:20:22,680 --> 01:20:25,759
Speaker 1: victim of sexual violence along with a female perpetrator erodes

1385
01:20:25,800 --> 01:20:29,920
Speaker 1: the persistent female victim slash male offender paradigm in actuality.

1386
01:20:29,960 --> 01:20:32,040
Speaker 1: It is likely that more than sixteen percent of men

1387
01:20:32,080 --> 01:20:35,080
Speaker 1: have survived sexual abuse by the age of eighteen, and

1388
01:20:35,120 --> 01:20:37,519
Speaker 1: while the majority of these young victims were assaulted by

1389
01:20:37,560 --> 01:20:40,800
Speaker 1: adult men. The existence of sexually abusive adult women is

1390
01:20:40,840 --> 01:20:45,080
Speaker 1: receiving increased attention. The fact that Charlie's abuse was committed

1391
01:20:45,080 --> 01:20:48,200
Speaker 1: by a trusted and beloved family member is also consistent

1392
01:20:48,240 --> 01:20:51,320
Speaker 1: with reality. More than ninety percent of juvenile sexual abuse

1393
01:20:51,400 --> 01:20:55,479
Speaker 1: victims know their perpetrators. Charlie's fondness for Aunt Helen and

1394
01:20:55,479 --> 01:20:58,240
Speaker 1: his prolonged grief over her accidental death is a poignant

1395
01:20:58,240 --> 01:21:01,400
Speaker 1: representation of the convoluted amo of many survivors of sexual

1396
01:21:01,439 --> 01:21:07,240
Speaker 1: assault experience toward those who abuse them. She goes on

1397
01:21:07,360 --> 01:21:11,840
Speaker 1: to discuss and I won't get too into it because

1398
01:21:12,000 --> 01:21:15,679
Speaker 1: it's a longer passage, but essentially says that she feels

1399
01:21:15,720 --> 01:21:19,959
Speaker 1: that Chaboski does a pretty solid job of portraying how

1400
01:21:20,040 --> 01:21:24,800
Speaker 1: that often bears out in a survivor's young life, and

1401
01:21:24,800 --> 01:21:28,479
Speaker 1: how that very likely has just like how PTSD is

1402
01:21:28,640 --> 01:21:32,640
Speaker 1: processed in teenagers, and how that very likely connects to

1403
01:21:33,080 --> 01:21:37,280
Speaker 1: the reason Charlie is so shy and connected to panic attacks,

1404
01:21:37,280 --> 01:21:40,439
Speaker 1: and how the death of his close friend could have

1405
01:21:40,560 --> 01:21:46,080
Speaker 1: exacerbated that. And I don't know, it was really interesting

1406
01:21:46,200 --> 01:21:48,240
Speaker 1: to read. I will we can link it in the

1407
01:21:48,280 --> 01:21:52,519
Speaker 1: episode as well, But that was something that I didn't see.

1408
01:21:52,560 --> 01:21:56,920
Speaker 1: I'm curious how. I mean, I can't speak to this experience,

1409
01:21:57,400 --> 01:22:00,800
Speaker 1: but it seems like it was generally well regarded and

1410
01:22:00,920 --> 01:22:04,120
Speaker 1: like how Charlie's character is treated and portrayed.

1411
01:22:04,600 --> 01:22:08,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, and again, it could be helpful for someone watching

1412
01:22:08,920 --> 01:22:12,920
Speaker 3: this who has experienced that and you know, allowed them

1413
01:22:12,960 --> 01:22:17,360
Speaker 3: to feel especially because this story is told from the

1414
01:22:17,520 --> 01:22:22,000
Speaker 3: point of view of the survivor of abuse, where when

1415
01:22:22,040 --> 01:22:24,080
Speaker 3: it is brought up in media a lot of times,

1416
01:22:24,160 --> 01:22:28,240
Speaker 3: it's not their story. It's not the survivor's story. It's

1417
01:22:28,720 --> 01:22:32,479
Speaker 3: another character who were not getting, you know, an inside

1418
01:22:32,479 --> 01:22:37,680
Speaker 3: look into their life and their feelings and their experiences.

1419
01:22:37,760 --> 01:22:45,240
Speaker 3: So yeah, I think it could easily be helpful. I

1420
01:22:45,280 --> 01:22:48,600
Speaker 3: think it could also easily be triggering for people. You know,

1421
01:22:48,680 --> 01:22:50,879
Speaker 3: it's but as far as how it's.

1422
01:22:50,880 --> 01:22:53,000
Speaker 1: Handled, definitely a movie you should go and with your

1423
01:22:53,040 --> 01:22:53,639
Speaker 1: eyes open.

1424
01:22:53,960 --> 01:22:59,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, But as far as how it's handled, nothing really

1425
01:22:59,200 --> 01:23:04,160
Speaker 3: struck me as something to really be concerned about from

1426
01:23:04,160 --> 01:23:06,680
Speaker 3: a representation point of view.

1427
01:23:06,720 --> 01:23:09,400
Speaker 1: But I mean, I think that that does circle back

1428
01:23:09,760 --> 01:23:17,639
Speaker 1: to why does Sam not receive this same grace and treatment? Yeah,

1429
01:23:17,680 --> 01:23:20,639
Speaker 1: I mean it's I think that the way it's handled

1430
01:23:20,760 --> 01:23:25,320
Speaker 1: in Charlie's character is I mean, just based on other

1431
01:23:25,400 --> 01:23:28,360
Speaker 1: ways I've seen this story portrayed like pretty well done,

1432
01:23:28,720 --> 01:23:30,880
Speaker 1: especially for its time. And I also like that they

1433
01:23:31,000 --> 01:23:33,600
Speaker 1: took the moment. I don't know if this happens in

1434
01:23:33,640 --> 01:23:35,519
Speaker 1: the book, but they took the moment to show that

1435
01:23:36,000 --> 01:23:39,960
Speaker 1: he was believed by his family and supported, because that's,

1436
01:23:40,040 --> 01:23:42,320
Speaker 1: you know, like another element that can often be re

1437
01:23:42,439 --> 01:23:45,360
Speaker 1: traumatizing if the people in your life do not believe you.

1438
01:23:45,439 --> 01:23:47,040
Speaker 1: So I like the for sure that the way this

1439
01:23:47,120 --> 01:23:50,800
Speaker 1: story bears out, he is believed and then gets you know,

1440
01:23:50,960 --> 01:23:55,599
Speaker 1: the the ending that's very like corny and cathartic and sweet,

1441
01:23:55,680 --> 01:23:59,200
Speaker 1: and you know, maybe two seconds after the camera shots off,

1442
01:23:59,439 --> 01:24:02,080
Speaker 1: he gets decay apitated within the tunnel. We don't really know.

1443
01:24:04,040 --> 01:24:07,040
Speaker 1: Hopefully it's not what happens, and he goes on to

1444
01:24:07,080 --> 01:24:10,120
Speaker 1: have a great high school experience. That's what I want

1445
01:24:10,120 --> 01:24:15,639
Speaker 1: from him, but I can't. I like, literally, that's there's

1446
01:24:15,680 --> 01:24:17,519
Speaker 1: a lot of difficult scenes in this movie, but watching

1447
01:24:17,560 --> 01:24:19,839
Speaker 1: these kids go through that damn tunnel is so stressful

1448
01:24:19,880 --> 01:24:20,080
Speaker 1: for me.

1449
01:24:21,120 --> 01:24:24,760
Speaker 3: Actually, honestly, having seen Hereditary, I assume that that's going

1450
01:24:24,800 --> 01:24:27,400
Speaker 3: to happen now for any character who just sticks their

1451
01:24:27,439 --> 01:24:28,320
Speaker 3: head out of a window.

1452
01:24:28,439 --> 01:24:31,000
Speaker 1: So say what you will about aria Aster, but he

1453
01:24:31,080 --> 01:24:35,040
Speaker 1: really does make you think about heads popping off all

1454
01:24:35,280 --> 01:24:35,719
Speaker 1: the time.

1455
01:24:36,040 --> 01:24:39,040
Speaker 3: He really sears an image into your brain that you

1456
01:24:39,080 --> 01:24:41,599
Speaker 3: will never forget or recover from.

1457
01:24:41,920 --> 01:24:48,680
Speaker 1: What a legacy. But anyways, yeah, just to sort of

1458
01:24:48,680 --> 01:24:51,519
Speaker 1: close that loop. As well done as I thought Charlie's

1459
01:24:51,560 --> 01:24:55,000
Speaker 1: story was handled in that regard and how thoughtfully it was.

1460
01:24:55,360 --> 01:25:00,360
Speaker 1: Again with Sam it's just mentioned and she still needs this.

1461
01:25:00,479 --> 01:25:03,600
Speaker 1: It's just like I just want to sit inside of

1462
01:25:03,640 --> 01:25:06,679
Speaker 1: Stephen Schabbassi's brain for a second to be like, why

1463
01:25:07,600 --> 01:25:10,000
Speaker 1: why is it so different between these two characters.

1464
01:25:10,640 --> 01:25:13,919
Speaker 3: I mean, yeah, that extends to basically all the female

1465
01:25:14,080 --> 01:25:17,520
Speaker 3: characters in the movie.

1466
01:25:17,040 --> 01:25:21,000
Speaker 4: Because his sister as well, his sister and Mary Elizabeth

1467
01:25:21,200 --> 01:25:24,200
Speaker 4: and Mary Elizabeth's friend who is sometimes in the movie.

1468
01:25:24,479 --> 01:25:29,320
Speaker 6: Yeah, speaking of Charlie's sister, Yes, there is a deleted

1469
01:25:29,479 --> 01:25:33,400
Speaker 6: scene that is from the book where Candace, Charlie's sister

1470
01:25:33,680 --> 01:25:38,280
Speaker 6: is pregnant and she needs Charlie's help when it comes

1471
01:25:38,320 --> 01:25:42,960
Speaker 6: to her getting an abortion, and it's a time where

1472
01:25:43,120 --> 01:25:45,160
Speaker 6: she and Charlie are connecting more.

1473
01:25:46,400 --> 01:25:50,040
Speaker 5: And Stephen Schabaski has said that.

1474
01:25:50,720 --> 01:25:54,599
Speaker 6: He ended up deleting it because he said it was

1475
01:25:55,040 --> 01:26:00,360
Speaker 6: too emotionally intense and wanted to prevent emotional fittigue.

1476
01:26:01,000 --> 01:26:03,800
Speaker 5: Okay, and I.

1477
01:26:02,920 --> 01:26:05,599
Speaker 6: Have feelings about that, especially when it comes to young

1478
01:26:05,640 --> 01:26:08,200
Speaker 6: people who could have really benefited from seeing that. And

1479
01:26:08,240 --> 01:26:10,840
Speaker 6: also part of me is like, are you doing that

1480
01:26:10,920 --> 01:26:13,760
Speaker 6: so that you can prevent a rated R warning? Because

1481
01:26:13,760 --> 01:26:15,160
Speaker 6: I don't think that's fair either.

1482
01:26:15,680 --> 01:26:20,280
Speaker 3: Interesting, right, because I mean abortion has always been such

1483
01:26:21,280 --> 01:26:26,160
Speaker 3: an issue that Hollywood has really avoided wanting to put

1484
01:26:26,240 --> 01:26:28,679
Speaker 3: on screen until like extremely recently.

1485
01:26:29,520 --> 01:26:32,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's that's so and does that sorry, does that

1486
01:26:32,280 --> 01:26:32,960
Speaker 1: happen in the book?

1487
01:26:33,320 --> 01:26:33,759
Speaker 5: It does?

1488
01:26:34,000 --> 01:26:38,040
Speaker 1: It? Does? That's so? Ugh? Yeah, because I totally agree,

1489
01:26:38,120 --> 01:26:41,400
Speaker 1: especially in twenty twelve. It's like there are so many

1490
01:26:41,640 --> 01:26:44,760
Speaker 1: and when the audience of this movie is obviously I

1491
01:26:44,800 --> 01:26:47,719
Speaker 1: guess teenagers, but I would actually guess closer to middle schoolers.

1492
01:26:47,720 --> 01:26:49,960
Speaker 1: I feel like stories about high schoolers are more often

1493
01:26:50,000 --> 01:26:52,320
Speaker 1: consumed by people a little bit younger who are looking

1494
01:26:52,360 --> 01:26:55,400
Speaker 1: forward to high school. And yeah, like, especially if it

1495
01:26:55,439 --> 01:26:57,880
Speaker 1: was well handled, which I don't.

1496
01:26:57,960 --> 01:26:58,280
Speaker 5: I don't know.

1497
01:26:58,320 --> 01:27:00,759
Speaker 1: It's like I don't necessarily trust him as a director

1498
01:27:00,800 --> 01:27:03,760
Speaker 1: to sure because maybe it would have just been a

1499
01:27:03,760 --> 01:27:05,679
Speaker 1: scene where Nina do Breav would have been like, I'm

1500
01:27:05,720 --> 01:27:08,519
Speaker 1: so ashamed, and then Charlie is like it's okay, I

1501
01:27:08,560 --> 01:27:09,639
Speaker 1: forgive you, and you're like.

1502
01:27:09,880 --> 01:27:14,680
Speaker 6: Yeah, it wasn't like that, but like what what what

1503
01:27:14,760 --> 01:27:16,680
Speaker 6: I do? What I do take issue with is like

1504
01:27:16,840 --> 01:27:21,759
Speaker 6: Steven Tabaski's continuously calling Nina de Brev an unsung hero,

1505
01:27:22,240 --> 01:27:26,200
Speaker 6: and how like during the actors commentary in this scene

1506
01:27:26,360 --> 01:27:29,160
Speaker 6: where she first gets hit by her boyfriend, some some

1507
01:27:29,240 --> 01:27:34,439
Speaker 6: of uh as Rebeller is as cracking a joke as

1508
01:27:34,439 --> 01:27:37,200
Speaker 6: a way to like suage the awkwardness of having to

1509
01:27:37,280 --> 01:27:39,880
Speaker 6: watch her get heart by saying by saying like, oh,

1510
01:27:39,960 --> 01:27:41,840
Speaker 6: Nina de brev could beat all our asses.

1511
01:27:41,640 --> 01:27:44,839
Speaker 5: Or whatever, and it's like, the fuck, show.

1512
01:27:44,720 --> 01:27:49,000
Speaker 1: Me a clip that's aged worse of churs.

1513
01:27:49,479 --> 01:27:49,599
Speaker 6: Uh.

1514
01:27:49,680 --> 01:27:52,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, that was I I that was another sort of

1515
01:27:52,800 --> 01:27:57,920
Speaker 1: small element of this story that I wasn't prepared for.

1516
01:27:58,479 --> 01:28:01,559
Speaker 1: That Again, I just I feel like it is a

1517
01:28:02,200 --> 01:28:07,639
Speaker 1: relevant topic of discussion and something that obviously happens all

1518
01:28:07,680 --> 01:28:10,840
Speaker 1: the time and happens to young people all the time,

1519
01:28:11,080 --> 01:28:14,040
Speaker 1: and the movie didn't really give it the space it

1520
01:28:14,120 --> 01:28:18,560
Speaker 1: needed to be discussed, because you see, yeah, and I

1521
01:28:18,600 --> 01:28:22,599
Speaker 1: don't think that that was like intentionally exploitative. But I

1522
01:28:22,640 --> 01:28:24,960
Speaker 1: just I don't like that they showed the worst of

1523
01:28:25,000 --> 01:28:27,120
Speaker 1: it and showed us physical abuse and then did not

1524
01:28:28,040 --> 01:28:33,400
Speaker 1: give her character any really on screen time to process it. Right.

1525
01:28:34,200 --> 01:28:37,920
Speaker 1: I thought it was an interesting start to having that

1526
01:28:38,000 --> 01:28:43,400
Speaker 1: conversation when she basically tries to justify the abuse to

1527
01:28:43,840 --> 01:28:46,960
Speaker 1: her brother, Like I know that's the very common part

1528
01:28:47,040 --> 01:28:50,640
Speaker 1: of an experience like that, Like I've I've been the

1529
01:28:50,640 --> 01:28:54,360
Speaker 1: person saying that to a loved one before, and like

1530
01:28:54,400 --> 01:28:57,240
Speaker 1: I think that that's an important But then that's sort

1531
01:28:57,280 --> 01:28:59,439
Speaker 1: of that's it the end of it. You just find

1532
01:28:59,439 --> 01:29:01,639
Speaker 1: out at the end, like, oh, she broke up with him,

1533
01:29:01,760 --> 01:29:06,519
Speaker 1: which great, glad, But the fact that you only you

1534
01:29:06,560 --> 01:29:09,160
Speaker 1: see abuse, you see her justifying the abuse, and then

1535
01:29:09,920 --> 01:29:14,120
Speaker 1: any journey that she has takes place off screen.

1536
01:29:14,320 --> 01:29:18,560
Speaker 3: Which I'm realizing now that all of the female characters,

1537
01:29:18,960 --> 01:29:24,040
Speaker 3: or at least like the teens, are defined by the

1538
01:29:24,040 --> 01:29:27,360
Speaker 3: boys they like or who they're dating, because you've got

1539
01:29:27,479 --> 01:29:32,519
Speaker 3: you know, the sister, she's in this abusive relationship, and

1540
01:29:32,560 --> 01:29:34,479
Speaker 3: then there's a beat where it's like she decided to

1541
01:29:34,479 --> 01:29:36,920
Speaker 3: break up with him and she went with her friends

1542
01:29:36,960 --> 01:29:39,720
Speaker 3: to prom but then the next the final beat of

1543
01:29:39,760 --> 01:29:43,600
Speaker 3: her like barely a story arc is she met a

1544
01:29:43,680 --> 01:29:46,160
Speaker 3: guy at her summer job and she's dating him now

1545
01:29:46,200 --> 01:29:46,960
Speaker 3: and he's nice.

1546
01:29:47,200 --> 01:29:49,560
Speaker 1: Yes, the same with Mary Elizabeth of like, well, she

1547
01:29:49,640 --> 01:29:52,639
Speaker 1: started dating this other guy, so she's also I mean, honestly,

1548
01:29:52,680 --> 01:29:54,840
Speaker 1: I was kind of glad that Mary Elizabeth started dating

1549
01:29:55,040 --> 01:29:59,960
Speaker 1: someone else because I was like, I don't know whether

1550
01:30:00,160 --> 01:30:00,920
Speaker 1: they're still together.

1551
01:30:01,760 --> 01:30:05,160
Speaker 5: She really advocated for.

1552
01:30:05,200 --> 01:30:07,120
Speaker 1: Wow, She's like I want a bad haircut, I want

1553
01:30:07,160 --> 01:30:09,719
Speaker 1: my boyfriend in the movie It's good for you May Whitman, Sure,

1554
01:30:09,760 --> 01:30:10,080
Speaker 1: why not?

1555
01:30:10,520 --> 01:30:14,320
Speaker 3: But like she didn't need to get with someone else, Like, no.

1556
01:30:14,400 --> 01:30:17,560
Speaker 1: She didn't. She got into Harvard, Like she's fine.

1557
01:30:17,439 --> 01:30:21,360
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, she's gonna start a romance two seconds before

1558
01:30:21,479 --> 01:30:22,639
Speaker 3: she leaves for school.

1559
01:30:22,840 --> 01:30:26,760
Speaker 1: That's silly, right, And and that like Sam, I think

1560
01:30:26,920 --> 01:30:31,600
Speaker 1: we see this a lot, like Sam is probably not

1561
01:30:31,800 --> 01:30:35,200
Speaker 1: with Charlie forever, but I feel like her ending up

1562
01:30:35,560 --> 01:30:39,760
Speaker 1: with Charlie to some extent is this simp like a

1563
01:30:39,880 --> 01:30:42,479
Speaker 1: sign that like she's left her old ways in the

1564
01:30:42,520 --> 01:30:45,960
Speaker 1: past and this relationship is symbolic that like she's gonna

1565
01:30:46,000 --> 01:30:48,680
Speaker 1: be okay. And you're like, she's a nice or she

1566
01:30:48,720 --> 01:30:52,720
Speaker 1: could just be okay, like or she could just be okay, yeah,

1567
01:30:52,920 --> 01:30:55,639
Speaker 1: but especially with his sister. Who's I keep I kept

1568
01:30:55,680 --> 01:31:01,040
Speaker 1: just being like Nina do Brev Candice, Yes, God this

1569
01:31:01,080 --> 01:31:05,280
Speaker 1: Maybe want to revisit Nina Dobrev's arcs in De Grassi,

1570
01:31:05,960 --> 01:31:08,360
Speaker 1: which is how the world met her. She dated Spinner,

1571
01:31:09,240 --> 01:31:11,120
Speaker 1: she's a teen mom. She's kind of a legend on

1572
01:31:11,160 --> 01:31:12,760
Speaker 1: the show De Grassy. Heads will know?

1573
01:31:12,920 --> 01:31:14,920
Speaker 3: Is this why I don't know her because I've never

1574
01:31:15,160 --> 01:31:16,000
Speaker 3: seen De Grassy.

1575
01:31:16,360 --> 01:31:18,960
Speaker 1: Sorry, you don't watch enough trashy TV, and that's something

1576
01:31:19,000 --> 01:31:21,760
Speaker 1: that I've wanted to talk to you about. She's kind

1577
01:31:21,760 --> 01:31:25,280
Speaker 1: of a legend of Degrassi. Is not trashy TV except

1578
01:31:25,600 --> 01:31:29,559
Speaker 1: sometimes except when it is, except what it really is,

1579
01:31:29,680 --> 01:31:32,439
Speaker 1: and that you're just like these Canadians need to relax.

1580
01:31:33,080 --> 01:31:36,400
Speaker 3: This is a part of my shameful history. But I'm

1581
01:31:36,400 --> 01:31:40,120
Speaker 3: going to turn things around and it's all my fault.

1582
01:31:41,160 --> 01:31:44,840
Speaker 1: Charlie. I forgive you for your negligent ways. And then

1583
01:31:44,880 --> 01:31:47,519
Speaker 1: she's on a show that's just straight up trash. But

1584
01:31:47,640 --> 01:31:50,800
Speaker 1: I have seen a lot of and Princess Weeks has

1585
01:31:50,800 --> 01:31:54,280
Speaker 1: made some amazing videos about the Vampire Diaries, which is

1586
01:31:55,200 --> 01:31:59,559
Speaker 1: the CW capitalizing on Twilight's popularity, but it was on

1587
01:31:59,600 --> 01:32:02,840
Speaker 1: for like fifty years, and they were like playing twenty

1588
01:32:02,840 --> 01:32:05,519
Speaker 1: two year old, but they were like forty It was wild.

1589
01:32:05,760 --> 01:32:09,120
Speaker 1: What was going on on that damn show? Anyways, that's

1590
01:32:09,280 --> 01:32:12,559
Speaker 1: where Nina dolbro because all that to say, I really

1591
01:32:12,640 --> 01:32:17,280
Speaker 1: like that actor, but as far as her arc goes,

1592
01:32:17,360 --> 01:32:23,080
Speaker 1: I really get pissed off when a filmmaker is comfortable

1593
01:32:23,120 --> 01:32:26,080
Speaker 1: showing a woman being abused and then does not make

1594
01:32:26,080 --> 01:32:29,280
Speaker 1: the space for her to have a character arc, Like

1595
01:32:29,680 --> 01:32:31,799
Speaker 1: if you don't have space for her in the movie,

1596
01:32:32,240 --> 01:32:36,120
Speaker 1: don't show her getting hit. It just feels exploitative a

1597
01:32:36,200 --> 01:32:38,439
Speaker 1: little bit, even if it wasn't intended that way. I

1598
01:32:38,439 --> 01:32:41,559
Speaker 1: feel like it. Yeah, it pisses me off. Yes, I agree.

1599
01:32:41,840 --> 01:32:45,120
Speaker 6: In the book, she's she's about to get an abortion,

1600
01:32:45,360 --> 01:32:48,240
Speaker 6: and at the time when she tells the boyfriend that

1601
01:32:48,320 --> 01:32:51,679
Speaker 6: she's pregnant, he's like, hot, not mine. And then she

1602
01:32:51,760 --> 01:32:55,360
Speaker 6: proceeds to get the abortion, connects with Charlie. She tells

1603
01:32:55,439 --> 01:32:57,880
Speaker 6: the boyfriend, tell them like, like, you know what it was,

1604
01:32:58,040 --> 01:32:58,800
Speaker 6: it was a false alarm.

1605
01:32:58,840 --> 01:33:00,519
Speaker 5: Don't worry about it. And he's like, oh, okay, great,

1606
01:33:00,520 --> 01:33:01,880
Speaker 5: and she's like, but I'm breaking up with you.

1607
01:33:02,600 --> 01:33:05,040
Speaker 6: And then like there's a description of her reading like

1608
01:33:05,120 --> 01:33:08,200
Speaker 6: self esteem books but then stopping to read the self

1609
01:33:08,320 --> 01:33:11,200
Speaker 6: esteem books because she starts dating a guy a year

1610
01:33:11,240 --> 01:33:13,280
Speaker 6: younger than her. So I'm not saying the book is

1611
01:33:13,360 --> 01:33:15,880
Speaker 6: perfect by means, but it.

1612
01:33:15,840 --> 01:33:18,200
Speaker 3: Seems to give her a little bit more characterization.

1613
01:33:18,760 --> 01:33:22,479
Speaker 1: Yeah right, I mean it sounds like it definitely does more.

1614
01:33:22,520 --> 01:33:25,679
Speaker 1: And I know that like when you're adapting, like stuff

1615
01:33:25,720 --> 01:33:27,280
Speaker 1: has to get cut down and stuff like that. But

1616
01:33:27,320 --> 01:33:29,400
Speaker 1: it's like, Okay, if you didn't have the space for

1617
01:33:29,400 --> 01:33:31,720
Speaker 1: her to be a bigger character, then don't show her

1618
01:33:31,760 --> 01:33:35,000
Speaker 1: getting abused if like yeah.

1619
01:33:34,840 --> 01:33:39,320
Speaker 3: And it's just it's very telling who this writer director

1620
01:33:39,880 --> 01:33:43,719
Speaker 3: wants to give space too, because the most characterized people

1621
01:33:43,760 --> 01:33:48,160
Speaker 3: in this movie are the boys. Like the boys we

1622
01:33:48,200 --> 01:33:52,360
Speaker 3: don't know an awful lot. I think the like Mary

1623
01:33:52,360 --> 01:33:55,439
Speaker 3: Elizabeth likes Rocky Horror Picture Show.

1624
01:33:55,400 --> 01:33:58,439
Speaker 1: Which good for her, she's right to film that way, But.

1625
01:33:58,479 --> 01:34:00,280
Speaker 3: Like, what else do we know about any of the

1626
01:34:00,320 --> 01:34:03,040
Speaker 3: girls except for like their taste in music?

1627
01:34:03,479 --> 01:34:06,519
Speaker 1: Also, like how is this Mary Elizabeth's production of Rocky Horror?

1628
01:34:06,560 --> 01:34:10,160
Speaker 1: But she's still somehow cast in a minor role. I

1629
01:34:10,200 --> 01:34:12,960
Speaker 1: was like, can we let like why can't may women

1630
01:34:13,080 --> 01:34:15,600
Speaker 1: be the main person? Like the Hollywood is allergic to

1631
01:34:15,680 --> 01:34:17,760
Speaker 1: letting her be the main person. Even she's like, this

1632
01:34:17,840 --> 01:34:20,920
Speaker 1: is my production and I'm gonna play the maid.

1633
01:34:21,080 --> 01:34:23,280
Speaker 3: I'm like why, I don't know.

1634
01:34:23,400 --> 01:34:28,160
Speaker 1: Anyways, Yeah, I wanted to shout out Mary Elizabeth as

1635
01:34:28,400 --> 01:34:30,960
Speaker 1: I don't know, I felt and always I was almost

1636
01:34:30,960 --> 01:34:32,479
Speaker 1: a little bit embarrassed about. I was like, oh, I

1637
01:34:32,479 --> 01:34:35,320
Speaker 1: felt kind of represented by her at times where it's

1638
01:34:35,400 --> 01:34:39,679
Speaker 1: just like a young woman doing the most she doesn't

1639
01:34:39,680 --> 01:34:43,800
Speaker 1: know how works, right, this is like this like just

1640
01:34:43,880 --> 01:34:46,960
Speaker 1: desperately tried to be like this, maybe this maybe I'm

1641
01:34:47,000 --> 01:34:49,840
Speaker 1: this person, or maybe I'm this person. She's like, I'm

1642
01:34:49,960 --> 01:34:52,960
Speaker 1: vegan person. No, I'm a rocky horror person. No, I'm

1643
01:34:53,040 --> 01:34:56,280
Speaker 1: book person. Like just like I get, like, I don't know.

1644
01:34:56,320 --> 01:34:59,320
Speaker 1: I was like she's a little frustrating at times and

1645
01:35:00,280 --> 01:35:02,880
Speaker 1: up her own ass, but I just I feel like

1646
01:35:03,000 --> 01:35:05,720
Speaker 1: it's you don't see characters like that a lot who

1647
01:35:05,760 --> 01:35:08,880
Speaker 1: are like also loved by their friends and like that

1648
01:35:09,080 --> 01:35:11,599
Speaker 1: you know things end up going well for her. And

1649
01:35:11,680 --> 01:35:14,000
Speaker 1: also just like that moment of like oof, just like

1650
01:35:14,120 --> 01:35:18,840
Speaker 1: he this movie does like humiliating moments pretty well in

1651
01:35:18,840 --> 01:35:21,080
Speaker 1: a way that like kind of triggered my enterteen that

1652
01:35:21,240 --> 01:35:25,320
Speaker 1: scene where oh where he I mean, there's a lot

1653
01:35:25,360 --> 01:35:28,560
Speaker 1: going on in that scene where he's surprised, kisses Sam

1654
01:35:28,600 --> 01:35:33,599
Speaker 1: and humiliates his girlfriend, who is a lot but certainly

1655
01:35:33,600 --> 01:35:38,720
Speaker 1: did not deserve that, right. You know, I wouldn't talk

1656
01:35:38,760 --> 01:35:39,800
Speaker 1: to him for two weeks either.

1657
01:35:40,560 --> 01:35:46,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, is there anything else anyone wants to talk about?

1658
01:35:46,680 --> 01:35:51,440
Speaker 5: Yes? The character Michael, the friend who dies by suicide.

1659
01:35:52,360 --> 01:35:56,000
Speaker 6: Yes, in the In the movie, he's only brought up

1660
01:35:56,120 --> 01:36:02,000
Speaker 6: super briefly while Charlie is stoned. And Stephen Schabowski had said,

1661
01:36:02,320 --> 01:36:05,200
Speaker 6: like in books, you can do multiple ghosts. In a movie,

1662
01:36:05,200 --> 01:36:06,880
Speaker 6: you only get one ghost, and I want it, And

1663
01:36:06,920 --> 01:36:09,040
Speaker 6: he said, I want that one ghost to be Aunt Helen.

1664
01:36:09,160 --> 01:36:12,439
Speaker 6: I don't want two ghosts. And then he had said,

1665
01:36:12,800 --> 01:36:15,519
Speaker 6: in the book, you open with like Charlie and a

1666
01:36:15,520 --> 01:36:18,920
Speaker 6: bunch of other kids grieving Michael's suicide before high school starts.

1667
01:36:19,840 --> 01:36:22,040
Speaker 6: And then he says, oh, I didn't want this to

1668
01:36:22,120 --> 01:36:25,479
Speaker 6: be a suicide movie and not.

1669
01:36:25,360 --> 01:36:27,400
Speaker 5: Wanting that to be the tone of the movie.

1670
01:36:27,479 --> 01:36:29,840
Speaker 6: And I'm just over here, like, but but it is

1671
01:36:30,240 --> 01:36:33,559
Speaker 6: a suicide movie and that is okay, Like you don't

1672
01:36:33,600 --> 01:36:37,240
Speaker 6: have to frame its right exactly, so you don't have

1673
01:36:37,320 --> 01:36:40,519
Speaker 6: to frame it as like that. And again going back

1674
01:36:40,560 --> 01:36:42,880
Speaker 6: to Tanuda Dobbs deleted scene, it's like what do you

1675
01:36:42,920 --> 01:36:46,760
Speaker 6: what do you mean emotionally intense? And also this this

1676
01:36:46,840 --> 01:36:50,040
Speaker 6: doesn't help that he has an extensive, like screenwriting background

1677
01:36:50,160 --> 01:36:52,200
Speaker 6: either where he's trained by a bunch of other.

1678
01:36:52,120 --> 01:36:54,160
Speaker 5: White CIS dudes, and and.

1679
01:36:54,120 --> 01:36:57,639
Speaker 6: So probably the mindset of like, oh, emotions equate bad

1680
01:36:57,640 --> 01:37:01,759
Speaker 6: writing sort of thing, which I disagree with, and how

1681
01:37:01,840 --> 01:37:03,720
Speaker 6: this is a topic that shows up in a lot

1682
01:37:03,760 --> 01:37:08,519
Speaker 6: of his work, like he I understand that there are

1683
01:37:08,520 --> 01:37:10,360
Speaker 6: a lot of there's a lot of discourse about rent,

1684
01:37:10,560 --> 01:37:13,880
Speaker 6: but uh, he he adapted that screenplay and he did

1685
01:37:14,000 --> 01:37:17,280
Speaker 6: include the suicide that was in the original Broadway production.

1686
01:37:17,400 --> 01:37:19,640
Speaker 5: But then the director is like, we're gonna cut it.

1687
01:37:19,920 --> 01:37:22,800
Speaker 6: And then you direct and write projects that that also

1688
01:37:22,840 --> 01:37:26,920
Speaker 6: contained content about suicide. It's like that is okay, that

1689
01:37:26,920 --> 01:37:29,920
Speaker 6: that's a topic that's close to you, Like, don't frame

1690
01:37:29,960 --> 01:37:31,880
Speaker 6: it in a way that that you're like, oh, you know,

1691
01:37:31,960 --> 01:37:34,360
Speaker 6: I didn't want it to be that movie and it's

1692
01:37:34,400 --> 01:37:36,799
Speaker 6: and it's like no, like there are folks who need

1693
01:37:36,800 --> 01:37:40,320
Speaker 6: that content, Like there's this there's this movie that Hugh

1694
01:37:40,400 --> 01:37:43,280
Speaker 6: Jackman is in that's based off of a play called

1695
01:37:43,360 --> 01:37:47,280
Speaker 6: The Sun, and that got bad reviews because they're all like, oh,

1696
01:37:47,280 --> 01:37:49,920
Speaker 6: it's a melancholy and whatnot, and it's like, no, this

1697
01:37:50,040 --> 01:37:55,040
Speaker 6: is actually a very real portrayal of how suicidal ideation happens,

1698
01:37:55,080 --> 01:37:57,080
Speaker 6: and also like it's able to portray it in a

1699
01:37:57,080 --> 01:38:00,400
Speaker 6: way where it's like, no, you don't need like a Typically,

1700
01:38:00,400 --> 01:38:01,920
Speaker 6: what a lot of films do is like they give

1701
01:38:02,080 --> 01:38:05,000
Speaker 6: a reason for why someone is having mental health issues.

1702
01:38:05,000 --> 01:38:07,400
Speaker 6: And what I like about The Sun is how this

1703
01:38:07,560 --> 01:38:10,160
Speaker 6: character explicitly says like I don't need a reason. I

1704
01:38:10,240 --> 01:38:13,000
Speaker 6: just don't want to be alive, and it's uh right.

1705
01:38:13,040 --> 01:38:15,040
Speaker 6: And then that movie ends up getting bad reviews because

1706
01:38:15,040 --> 01:38:16,280
Speaker 6: they're like, oh, too much emotion.

1707
01:38:18,880 --> 01:38:21,719
Speaker 1: That's I didn't even know that. I was like, I would,

1708
01:38:21,760 --> 01:38:24,639
Speaker 1: I'll watch that movie like.

1709
01:38:25,720 --> 01:38:28,240
Speaker 5: It's a it's a sad ending. I will say that

1710
01:38:28,479 --> 01:38:31,519
Speaker 5: is okay, so be prepared for that. Watch it with

1711
01:38:31,520 --> 01:38:31,880
Speaker 5: a friend.

1712
01:38:32,040 --> 01:38:34,559
Speaker 1: But that's so that's so wild though that it feels

1713
01:38:34,600 --> 01:38:38,200
Speaker 1: like and I do wonder, Yeah, what kind of like

1714
01:38:38,320 --> 01:38:40,920
Speaker 1: producer pressures there are to be like, oh, well, this

1715
01:38:41,040 --> 01:38:43,519
Speaker 1: is like this is too much for a teenage audience,

1716
01:38:43,640 --> 01:38:46,000
Speaker 1: versus like I also this says like what is considered

1717
01:38:46,040 --> 01:38:49,519
Speaker 1: too much and not too much quote unquote, Like there's

1718
01:38:49,560 --> 01:38:52,120
Speaker 1: such nebulous terms, and I feel like are so defined

1719
01:38:52,320 --> 01:38:57,000
Speaker 1: by like the money people versus like what young audiences

1720
01:38:57,000 --> 01:38:59,800
Speaker 1: would actually benefit from, because I'm sure that that would

1721
01:38:59,840 --> 01:39:02,840
Speaker 1: be And but then also you're just like, well, this

1722
01:39:02,960 --> 01:39:05,240
Speaker 1: is also the man that goes on to adapt Dear

1723
01:39:05,280 --> 01:39:09,400
Speaker 1: Evan Hanson, So you know, how do we how do

1724
01:39:09,479 --> 01:39:13,960
Speaker 1: we establish trust and what do we do?

1725
01:39:14,240 --> 01:39:17,280
Speaker 6: It's confusing and that ended up getting bad reviews and

1726
01:39:17,640 --> 01:39:18,479
Speaker 6: I'm over here like.

1727
01:39:20,640 --> 01:39:23,280
Speaker 1: Right, well, I guess he didn't write that one. He

1728
01:39:23,360 --> 01:39:26,679
Speaker 1: directed it. It's so like he helped.

1729
01:39:26,720 --> 01:39:28,400
Speaker 5: He helped with some of the writing. He and a

1730
01:39:28,400 --> 01:39:29,960
Speaker 5: few others helped with some of the writing.

1731
01:39:30,000 --> 01:39:33,519
Speaker 6: But yeah, the original like Broadway person who wrote it

1732
01:39:33,600 --> 01:39:34,800
Speaker 6: is the main writer of it.

1733
01:39:35,080 --> 01:39:35,880
Speaker 3: Got It, Got It.

1734
01:39:36,520 --> 01:39:38,519
Speaker 1: I was like, wait, I don't I don't need to

1735
01:39:38,520 --> 01:39:41,080
Speaker 1: contribute to the dunking on Deer Evan Hanson. There's there's

1736
01:39:41,120 --> 01:39:44,240
Speaker 1: a whole cottage industry around dunking on that movie.

1737
01:39:44,560 --> 01:39:47,439
Speaker 5: But so many theater people, so.

1738
01:39:47,920 --> 01:39:50,320
Speaker 1: Oh my god, it's like they've really angered the wrong

1739
01:39:50,400 --> 01:39:54,320
Speaker 1: people this time. The last thing I wanted to say

1740
01:39:55,120 --> 01:39:59,360
Speaker 1: was about Aunt Helen, where they didn't go deep into this.

1741
01:39:59,400 --> 01:40:02,840
Speaker 1: I wonder if they in the book. I wasn't mad

1742
01:40:02,840 --> 01:40:04,479
Speaker 1: about it, but I thought it was interesting that it

1743
01:40:04,560 --> 01:40:09,519
Speaker 1: was mentioned because just based on what I know, it

1744
01:40:09,600 --> 01:40:14,439
Speaker 1: did sort of seem to scan where Charlie makes a

1745
01:40:14,560 --> 01:40:18,720
Speaker 1: reference to it sounds as if Helen may have been

1746
01:40:18,800 --> 01:40:23,800
Speaker 1: abused as well, and yeah, and that he brings that

1747
01:40:23,960 --> 01:40:27,160
Speaker 1: up in like almost as like a sort of defense

1748
01:40:27,400 --> 01:40:30,920
Speaker 1: of her behavior was like, well, she was hurt, and

1749
01:40:31,280 --> 01:40:34,560
Speaker 1: that is I mean, obviously there's no prescriptive way to

1750
01:40:34,600 --> 01:40:39,200
Speaker 1: talk about this, but like that is something that frequently happens,

1751
01:40:39,320 --> 01:40:43,040
Speaker 1: is that abusers have been abused themselves. And I was

1752
01:40:43,040 --> 01:40:44,920
Speaker 1: glad they didn't harp on it. I didn't feel like

1753
01:40:44,920 --> 01:40:46,360
Speaker 1: there was really a need to, but I thought that

1754
01:40:46,400 --> 01:40:50,519
Speaker 1: it was It just felt pretty authentic that like if

1755
01:40:50,600 --> 01:40:52,960
Speaker 1: Charlie knew that that would be something where that would

1756
01:40:53,000 --> 01:40:55,720
Speaker 1: like come up for him when he was starting to

1757
01:40:55,720 --> 01:40:56,320
Speaker 1: process that.

1758
01:40:57,760 --> 01:41:02,479
Speaker 6: In the book, they talk about how both aunt Helen

1759
01:41:02,760 --> 01:41:07,000
Speaker 6: and Charlie's mom were physically abused by the by their father.

1760
01:41:07,400 --> 01:41:09,280
Speaker 5: Okay, but that but that Aunt.

1761
01:41:09,000 --> 01:41:12,519
Speaker 6: Helen was was was sexually abused by a friend of

1762
01:41:12,600 --> 01:41:15,880
Speaker 6: the father So I did find it interesting that the

1763
01:41:15,920 --> 01:41:19,559
Speaker 6: movie had decided like, oh, aunt Helen moved in because

1764
01:41:19,560 --> 01:41:22,400
Speaker 6: of bad boyfriends, because in the book they're they're all like,

1765
01:41:22,479 --> 01:41:24,439
Speaker 6: we don't know why Aunt Helen moved in, but she's

1766
01:41:24,479 --> 01:41:26,240
Speaker 6: here now until she dies.

1767
01:41:26,760 --> 01:41:31,599
Speaker 3: Interesting, Okay, I have a question. There's a moment toward

1768
01:41:31,680 --> 01:41:36,959
Speaker 3: the end where there's a flashback young Charlie is holding

1769
01:41:37,080 --> 01:41:42,200
Speaker 3: I think his mom's hand to comfort her after the

1770
01:41:42,240 --> 01:41:45,559
Speaker 3: death of Aunt Helen. I think it's his mom, but

1771
01:41:45,560 --> 01:41:45,920
Speaker 3: I'm not.

1772
01:41:45,840 --> 01:41:47,840
Speaker 5: Sure Aunt Helen's hand.

1773
01:41:48,000 --> 01:41:50,880
Speaker 3: Oh it is so because like her risk kind of

1774
01:41:50,920 --> 01:41:55,080
Speaker 3: turns over and you see scars from an apparent suicide

1775
01:41:55,080 --> 01:41:59,040
Speaker 3: attempt on her wrist. So that was Aunt Helen. Yeah, Okay,

1776
01:41:59,160 --> 01:42:01,560
Speaker 3: I wasn't sure what adult woman I was.

1777
01:42:02,400 --> 01:42:04,240
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, because I wasn't sure either, And then I

1778
01:42:04,240 --> 01:42:07,280
Speaker 1: also knew that it was already established in like, I mean,

1779
01:42:07,640 --> 01:42:12,240
Speaker 1: very very different situation. But like when he's hooking up

1780
01:42:12,240 --> 01:42:14,800
Speaker 1: with Mary Elizabeth and he's thinking about Sam that like

1781
01:42:15,280 --> 01:42:19,400
Speaker 1: faces would sometimes swap when he was like in his

1782
01:42:19,479 --> 01:42:22,479
Speaker 1: So I wasn't. I just wasn't sure. Okay, that's got

1783
01:42:22,800 --> 01:42:24,479
Speaker 1: good to know. And again it's like I I do

1784
01:42:25,439 --> 01:42:28,920
Speaker 1: I wasn't bothered that the movie didn't harp on that,

1785
01:42:29,280 --> 01:42:30,640
Speaker 1: but that it was acknowledged.

1786
01:42:33,880 --> 01:42:37,839
Speaker 3: The last thing I want to say is Sam's line

1787
01:42:38,479 --> 01:42:42,120
Speaker 3: where she says, I'm not a bulliemic, I'm a bulee

1788
01:42:42,160 --> 01:42:46,559
Speaker 3: mist Oh god, I love bulimia. I'm like, we're just

1789
01:42:46,720 --> 01:42:49,800
Speaker 3: like Stephen Schabowski, what you.

1790
01:42:49,760 --> 01:42:53,000
Speaker 1: Will pay for your crimes? Yeah, weird ass nineties dialogue.

1791
01:42:53,080 --> 01:42:56,760
Speaker 6: He wrote a line and then apparently Emma Watson asra

1792
01:42:56,800 --> 01:42:59,120
Speaker 6: Miller decided to do improv on that line, and that's

1793
01:42:59,120 --> 01:43:00,519
Speaker 6: what ended up being bood final take.

1794
01:43:01,400 --> 01:43:02,800
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh.

1795
01:43:02,840 --> 01:43:07,000
Speaker 1: It did sound very like sorry but like dumb ass

1796
01:43:07,080 --> 01:43:10,960
Speaker 1: teenager like banter, but in a way that it was like,

1797
01:43:11,200 --> 01:43:14,320
Speaker 1: did we need that? Wasn't necessarily don't wrote this? Yeah, yeah,

1798
01:43:14,400 --> 01:43:16,960
Speaker 1: don't write You're like, but but a forty five year

1799
01:43:17,000 --> 01:43:21,160
Speaker 1: old man wrote this down, so huh. Interesting.

1800
01:43:21,240 --> 01:43:23,439
Speaker 5: The two adult actors were like, this is fine.

1801
01:43:23,880 --> 01:43:25,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, the two twenty two year olds are like, let's

1802
01:43:25,800 --> 01:43:28,080
Speaker 1: riff on this, and you're like, please don't or not

1803
01:43:29,080 --> 01:43:32,519
Speaker 1: or not anyways, good job. Percy Jackson liked you in

1804
01:43:32,560 --> 01:43:37,080
Speaker 1: a movie. I thought I thought he was good like

1805
01:43:37,160 --> 01:43:44,200
Speaker 1: I enjoyed logan Lehrman's performance, and I enjoyed his performance

1806
01:43:44,240 --> 01:43:47,200
Speaker 1: as Percy Jackson, so so there.

1807
01:43:47,680 --> 01:43:52,160
Speaker 4: Brave a few to admit, absolutely, But but this is

1808
01:43:52,160 --> 01:43:53,280
Speaker 4: actually a great question.

1809
01:43:54,000 --> 01:43:57,280
Speaker 1: Does this movie pass the Bechdel test?

1810
01:43:58,160 --> 01:44:00,559
Speaker 3: Actually? Does it? I don't because, yeah, I didn't even

1811
01:44:00,560 --> 01:44:01,360
Speaker 3: pay attention.

1812
01:44:01,160 --> 01:44:04,040
Speaker 5: Because it's like, I'm not sure, because I'm not sure.

1813
01:44:04,120 --> 01:44:06,960
Speaker 6: I felt the same way if it passes because of

1814
01:44:07,040 --> 01:44:10,719
Speaker 6: like the dialogue between Mary, Elizabeth and Alice.

1815
01:44:10,760 --> 01:44:13,240
Speaker 5: But at the same time, it's it's like it's only like.

1816
01:44:13,479 --> 01:44:16,679
Speaker 9: It's very quick pieces of yes, pieces of dialogue between

1817
01:44:16,680 --> 01:44:19,160
Speaker 9: the two of them, or or does it pass when

1818
01:44:19,280 --> 01:44:23,360
Speaker 9: Charlie's mom and sister are talking about like preparing to

1819
01:44:23,439 --> 01:44:27,559
Speaker 9: shop for college, move and stuff, So I'm over here

1820
01:44:27,880 --> 01:44:30,160
Speaker 9: like like does it pass the bare minimum or does

1821
01:44:30,200 --> 01:44:34,639
Speaker 9: it pass this podcasts requirements for passing, and like it's.

1822
01:44:34,560 --> 01:44:36,840
Speaker 1: I don't know. For the first time in a long time,

1823
01:44:36,920 --> 01:44:41,200
Speaker 1: I actually really thought about the Bechdel test when watching

1824
01:44:41,320 --> 01:44:45,639
Speaker 1: this movie, because there's actually a pretty, uh, pretty robust

1825
01:44:45,720 --> 01:44:48,320
Speaker 1: discourse around whether this movie does or does not pass

1826
01:44:48,520 --> 01:44:50,920
Speaker 1: the Bechdel test, which usually in my mind just says

1827
01:44:51,120 --> 01:44:55,320
Speaker 1: it doesn't. Uh if it does by our standards, it

1828
01:44:55,439 --> 01:44:58,120
Speaker 1: does not by the original standards of the Bechtel test.

1829
01:44:58,320 --> 01:45:01,280
Speaker 1: It does, but as we say, like it should be

1830
01:45:01,400 --> 01:45:05,679
Speaker 1: an impactful line of dialect and not something throwaway. There

1831
01:45:05,720 --> 01:45:11,000
Speaker 1: is a throwaway line that I just thought was funny.

1832
01:45:11,040 --> 01:45:14,559
Speaker 1: There's just like passing conversation you hear between Mary Elizabeth

1833
01:45:14,600 --> 01:45:17,240
Speaker 1: and Alice, so we know their names, and it's when

1834
01:45:17,400 --> 01:45:20,519
Speaker 1: Charlie insults Mary Elizabeth's hair and Alice ses to Mary

1835
01:45:20,560 --> 01:45:23,559
Speaker 1: Elizabeth it's kind of true, and Mary Elizabeth says, shut

1836
01:45:23,600 --> 01:45:27,360
Speaker 1: shut up. So I would say, maybe that's a no

1837
01:45:27,600 --> 01:45:31,880
Speaker 1: for us. And then there's another thing where there's like

1838
01:45:31,960 --> 01:45:35,920
Speaker 1: a brief exchange between Mary Elizabeth and Charlie's mom, but

1839
01:45:35,920 --> 01:45:38,880
Speaker 1: we don't know what Charlie's mom's name is, so I

1840
01:45:38,920 --> 01:45:43,200
Speaker 1: would say that's a no. And also that exchange doesn't matter.

1841
01:45:43,280 --> 01:45:47,559
Speaker 3: Mary Elizabeth and Alice also talk about blue jeans where

1842
01:45:47,600 --> 01:45:49,640
Speaker 3: one of them gives them as a gift to the

1843
01:45:49,720 --> 01:45:53,040
Speaker 3: other person. Oh ha ha, you got me jeans.

1844
01:45:53,040 --> 01:45:55,320
Speaker 1: Because I just counted that as like a group setting scene.

1845
01:45:55,800 --> 01:45:58,760
Speaker 3: Yeah right, I don't know. The bottom line is that

1846
01:45:58,880 --> 01:46:02,599
Speaker 3: you would think the girls would talk to each other more,

1847
01:46:03,280 --> 01:46:08,360
Speaker 3: But the creative voice behind this story doesn't really have

1848
01:46:08,439 --> 01:46:10,720
Speaker 3: any interest in that.

1849
01:46:11,200 --> 01:46:14,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm gonna say it's a gnarry that this does

1850
01:46:14,439 --> 01:46:17,200
Speaker 1: not pass our version of the vexel test.

1851
01:46:18,320 --> 01:46:22,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's fine with me. But what about that nipple

1852
01:46:22,280 --> 01:46:25,160
Speaker 3: scale of ours? A scale where.

1853
01:46:25,320 --> 01:46:29,040
Speaker 1: What about a perfect metric that's never been wrong never ever?

1854
01:46:30,320 --> 01:46:33,320
Speaker 3: We rate the movie on a scale of zero to

1855
01:46:33,360 --> 01:46:37,880
Speaker 3: five nipples based on examining the movie through an intersectional

1856
01:46:37,920 --> 01:46:41,840
Speaker 3: feminist lens. I'm gonna do the Bechdel cast cheat code

1857
01:46:42,000 --> 01:46:45,960
Speaker 3: and split down the middle two point five because while

1858
01:46:46,240 --> 01:46:50,640
Speaker 3: it was either like ahead of its time or just

1859
01:46:50,720 --> 01:46:55,240
Speaker 3: sort of like representing certain things that a lot of

1860
01:46:55,479 --> 01:47:01,479
Speaker 3: media was hesitant to explore at this time and even

1861
01:47:01,520 --> 01:47:05,680
Speaker 3: to some extent now still, but you know, things like

1862
01:47:06,160 --> 01:47:14,000
Speaker 3: suicidal ideation and mental health issues among teenagers, openly queer

1863
01:47:14,160 --> 01:47:21,040
Speaker 3: characters who don't have a completely tragic storyline and who

1864
01:47:21,040 --> 01:47:25,000
Speaker 3: are pretty fully characterized, things like that. But then on

1865
01:47:25,040 --> 01:47:31,080
Speaker 3: the other hand, it's so painfully white, and the excuse

1866
01:47:31,200 --> 01:47:37,160
Speaker 3: that like, oh but this was an affluent suburb. No,

1867
01:47:37,400 --> 01:47:38,519
Speaker 3: I don't buy it, Like.

1868
01:47:39,200 --> 01:47:42,760
Speaker 1: Who's putting Like who is like forcing you to set

1869
01:47:42,800 --> 01:47:48,520
Speaker 1: your story there exactly? Like people in every across class

1870
01:47:48,920 --> 01:47:52,280
Speaker 1: boundaries have these problems exactly.

1871
01:47:52,560 --> 01:47:56,679
Speaker 3: So there being not a single person of color who

1872
01:47:56,760 --> 01:48:02,439
Speaker 3: speaks in the movie is glaring. The approach to the

1873
01:48:02,520 --> 01:48:08,240
Speaker 3: Sam character and her like quote unquote torrid past.

1874
01:48:07,760 --> 01:48:10,240
Speaker 1: Is so dramatic. I'm like, leave her hor.

1875
01:48:10,640 --> 01:48:16,920
Speaker 3: Handled, like really fumbled the way that's handled. And again,

1876
01:48:17,040 --> 01:48:21,879
Speaker 3: just the lack of interest of fully characterizing the girls

1877
01:48:22,040 --> 01:48:26,679
Speaker 3: in this story in general, and they're not being space

1878
01:48:26,880 --> 01:48:32,080
Speaker 3: made to just give them more interests, define them by

1879
01:48:32,240 --> 01:48:35,639
Speaker 3: things besides either their trauma or the boys they're dating.

1880
01:48:36,080 --> 01:48:40,800
Speaker 3: Things like that. It is also pretty claring. So I

1881
01:48:40,840 --> 01:48:43,760
Speaker 3: think I'll stick with two and a half. And uh,

1882
01:48:43,960 --> 01:48:46,920
Speaker 3: I'll give one nipple to the one black kid you

1883
01:48:46,960 --> 01:48:49,519
Speaker 3: see walking past the screen at school.

1884
01:48:49,960 --> 01:48:51,599
Speaker 5: Also also two black people.

1885
01:48:51,640 --> 01:48:54,200
Speaker 6: Then okay, there's there's a black doctor who doesn't speak,

1886
01:48:54,240 --> 01:48:55,759
Speaker 6: and there's a black student who doesn't speak.

1887
01:48:55,800 --> 01:48:56,320
Speaker 5: That's wild.

1888
01:48:56,520 --> 01:48:58,960
Speaker 3: I think I saw a black student, but maybe it's

1889
01:48:58,960 --> 01:49:06,400
Speaker 3: just wishful thinking. I'm not sure. And I'll give I'll

1890
01:49:06,400 --> 01:49:09,519
Speaker 3: give one nipple to May Whitman because I like her

1891
01:49:09,800 --> 01:49:13,600
Speaker 3: as an actor. And I'll give my half nipple to

1892
01:49:16,120 --> 01:49:22,519
Speaker 3: sister Candace and and her going to prom stag with

1893
01:49:22,600 --> 01:49:23,400
Speaker 3: her friends.

1894
01:49:23,600 --> 01:49:27,519
Speaker 1: Oh my god, I am justice for Candace movie Candace

1895
01:49:27,520 --> 01:49:31,640
Speaker 1: at least. Yes, Yeah, I'm gonna I'll split down the

1896
01:49:31,680 --> 01:49:34,320
Speaker 1: middle too. I think that this is a very sincere

1897
01:49:34,920 --> 01:49:40,600
Speaker 1: movie with its heart mostly in the right place. But

1898
01:49:41,320 --> 01:49:44,599
Speaker 1: I think and like, honestly, I didn't feel this as

1899
01:49:44,640 --> 01:49:47,000
Speaker 1: strongly entering this conversation. This has been like a really

1900
01:49:47,000 --> 01:49:52,360
Speaker 1: really clarifying, helpful conversation because you're both just so damn smart,

1901
01:49:52,960 --> 01:49:57,120
Speaker 1: wow and beautiful and cool. There were killing it. This

1902
01:49:57,200 --> 01:49:58,720
Speaker 1: zoom chat is electrics.

1903
01:49:58,800 --> 01:50:03,440
Speaker 3: All three of us are so good for us are infinite.

1904
01:50:04,000 --> 01:50:06,800
Speaker 1: Yes, in this moment we're infinite, and then our heads go.

1905
01:50:08,600 --> 01:50:12,439
Speaker 1: But yeah, I think that it's like, as far as

1906
01:50:12,600 --> 01:50:17,400
Speaker 1: the way this movie treats its protagonist, Charlie, I generally

1907
01:50:17,760 --> 01:50:21,280
Speaker 1: think it's a thoughtful movie that like tries to do

1908
01:50:21,400 --> 01:50:25,280
Speaker 1: right by its protagonist. You see, I mean, whitest movie

1909
01:50:25,360 --> 01:50:28,280
Speaker 1: in the world takes place in the upper middle class

1910
01:50:28,640 --> 01:50:33,640
Speaker 1: being generous. These houses are fucking ginormous. So in some

1911
01:50:33,680 --> 01:50:36,400
Speaker 1: ways it's very much the status quo of a teen movie.

1912
01:50:36,400 --> 01:50:39,240
Speaker 1: But you also see representation that you don't see in

1913
01:50:39,439 --> 01:50:43,800
Speaker 1: most teen movies, where but the representation representation you get

1914
01:50:44,160 --> 01:50:50,200
Speaker 1: is limited to white men or white boys. However, you know,

1915
01:50:50,200 --> 01:50:56,200
Speaker 1: within that, I do feel like Patrick imperfect and being

1916
01:50:56,280 --> 01:50:59,920
Speaker 1: played by Ezra Miller certainly does not help synth the

1917
01:51:00,120 --> 01:51:03,800
Speaker 1: size this character. But I did like that Patrick was

1918
01:51:03,800 --> 01:51:08,960
Speaker 1: not defined by his trauma and he gets a happy ending,

1919
01:51:09,040 --> 01:51:11,479
Speaker 1: and that's I feel like when queerness is portrayed in

1920
01:51:11,600 --> 01:51:14,479
Speaker 1: youth media, that's I mean, even if we're talking de grassy,

1921
01:51:15,080 --> 01:51:16,760
Speaker 1: very often not the case.

1922
01:51:16,880 --> 01:51:19,160
Speaker 5: And he has good parents, he has good parents. It's

1923
01:51:19,160 --> 01:51:21,679
Speaker 5: Brad who has terrible parents. He actually has good parents.

1924
01:51:21,760 --> 01:51:23,960
Speaker 1: Yeah do we meet his parents and.

1925
01:51:24,200 --> 01:51:27,519
Speaker 5: The book you hear how great they are, but like, yeah, okay, yeah.

1926
01:51:27,320 --> 01:51:29,360
Speaker 1: It's I think it is referenced in the like in

1927
01:51:29,680 --> 01:51:31,720
Speaker 1: very very much in Passing, but that his family like

1928
01:51:31,880 --> 01:51:35,759
Speaker 1: is accepting and loving of him, which like all families

1929
01:51:35,760 --> 01:51:37,599
Speaker 1: should be. But I guess like for the early nineties,

1930
01:51:37,680 --> 01:51:40,599
Speaker 1: that is like a good thing to be explicit about,

1931
01:51:40,600 --> 01:51:44,600
Speaker 1: and that you know that different queer characters in the

1932
01:51:44,640 --> 01:51:48,040
Speaker 1: movie have different backgrounds and there's not one prescriptive experience,

1933
01:51:48,720 --> 01:51:52,680
Speaker 1: and that there is I think pretty solid portrayal of

1934
01:51:53,080 --> 01:51:58,400
Speaker 1: a young male CSA survivor, which is again to this day,

1935
01:51:59,000 --> 01:52:02,920
Speaker 1: very very rare in media. And I mean we talked

1936
01:52:02,960 --> 01:52:06,120
Speaker 1: through that piece, but just I think gets a lot

1937
01:52:06,680 --> 01:52:09,080
Speaker 1: right in a way that is horrible, Like it is

1938
01:52:09,360 --> 01:52:13,280
Speaker 1: such a horrific topic to explore, but it's very important.

1939
01:52:13,479 --> 01:52:18,160
Speaker 1: And I think that the especially like that he is

1940
01:52:18,240 --> 01:52:21,160
Speaker 1: able to begin processing it and that it's clear that

1941
01:52:21,240 --> 01:52:23,920
Speaker 1: it's like not just something that it like it's an

1942
01:52:23,920 --> 01:52:27,120
Speaker 1: ongoing process. I liked that it showed that, like he's

1943
01:52:27,200 --> 01:52:29,640
Speaker 1: going to be going back to doctor Joan Cusack for

1944
01:52:29,680 --> 01:52:33,360
Speaker 1: a long time to like continue processing this experience. And

1945
01:52:33,400 --> 01:52:38,879
Speaker 1: again you see a very privileged perspective on processing CSA.

1946
01:52:39,040 --> 01:52:42,000
Speaker 1: But it's so rare that I was happy that it

1947
01:52:42,080 --> 01:52:49,120
Speaker 1: was there. However, docking it for not just the whiteness

1948
01:52:49,200 --> 01:52:51,800
Speaker 1: of this movie and the class it's sort of set in,

1949
01:52:52,640 --> 01:52:56,960
Speaker 1: but also how women do not really get the same

1950
01:52:57,360 --> 01:53:02,080
Speaker 1: benefits of grace from the story and time and uh

1951
01:53:02,360 --> 01:53:05,840
Speaker 1: from from the director and writer that the male characters do,

1952
01:53:06,320 --> 01:53:08,360
Speaker 1: which just means you're not going to do great on

1953
01:53:08,360 --> 01:53:13,920
Speaker 1: the Beattel cast. Sorry, so, uh, you know, justice for Sam.

1954
01:53:14,479 --> 01:53:16,200
Speaker 1: I do want to read the book now and see

1955
01:53:16,240 --> 01:53:18,120
Speaker 1: because I like Sam as a character and it's just

1956
01:53:18,160 --> 01:53:20,479
Speaker 1: like you just don't get quite enough and the redemption

1957
01:53:20,680 --> 01:53:24,320
Speaker 1: arc rhetoric, Oh, it just like made me turn on

1958
01:53:24,520 --> 01:53:28,080
Speaker 1: him even harder when may when you like it confirmed that,

1959
01:53:28,200 --> 01:53:31,880
Speaker 1: like and this is just how he feels, and you're like, okay,

1960
01:53:31,960 --> 01:53:36,400
Speaker 1: well now I'm angry. Okay, so I'm going to go

1961
01:53:36,560 --> 01:53:39,320
Speaker 1: two and a half on this. Uh you know, be

1962
01:53:39,560 --> 01:53:44,720
Speaker 1: for effort. Good job, Percy Jackson. I'm giving all of

1963
01:53:44,760 --> 01:53:49,920
Speaker 1: my nipples to doctor Joan Cusack. That's the real twist

1964
01:53:49,920 --> 01:53:53,280
Speaker 1: of the movie. You're like the doctor's junk key.

1965
01:53:54,400 --> 01:53:56,800
Speaker 3: She's in the opening credits, but by the time she

1966
01:53:57,040 --> 01:53:59,720
Speaker 3: shows up, you forget that shears and you're like, oh right,

1967
01:54:00,000 --> 01:54:01,320
Speaker 3: he was here all along.

1968
01:54:01,640 --> 01:54:05,320
Speaker 1: Bigger jump scare than the decapitation scene and hereditary doctor

1969
01:54:05,400 --> 01:54:10,920
Speaker 1: Joan Cusack so wild, especially because Kate Walsh It's more

1970
01:54:11,000 --> 01:54:16,800
Speaker 1: shondaland talk What's wrong with Me? That Kate Walsh aka

1971
01:54:17,200 --> 01:54:21,400
Speaker 1: Charlie's mom was famously on Gray's Anatomy and then Private Practice,

1972
01:54:21,520 --> 01:54:23,639
Speaker 1: so I'm so used to seeing her be a doctor.

1973
01:54:23,840 --> 01:54:26,120
Speaker 1: But she's not a doctor in this movie. Joan cu

1974
01:54:26,240 --> 01:54:29,000
Speaker 1: Suck's a doctor and that's an exciting twist for their

1975
01:54:29,000 --> 01:54:32,120
Speaker 1: early twenty tens. We're like, wait, that's missus doctor and

1976
01:54:32,160 --> 01:54:35,040
Speaker 1: they're like, nope, she's missus mommy. And we don't know

1977
01:54:35,080 --> 01:54:38,680
Speaker 1: what she does. We have no idea, we don't even

1978
01:54:38,720 --> 01:54:42,400
Speaker 1: know what her name is. She's missus kilmechis. Yep, well

1979
01:54:42,520 --> 01:54:46,680
Speaker 1: that's my that's my comflorating. Also justice for Candace, yes

1980
01:54:46,680 --> 01:54:48,520
Speaker 1: ma yah what say you?

1981
01:54:48,960 --> 01:54:51,120
Speaker 5: Yeah? I okay.

1982
01:54:51,640 --> 01:54:54,720
Speaker 6: I thought about this question beforehand because it's it's a

1983
01:54:54,760 --> 01:54:56,320
Speaker 6: great part of the podcast format.

1984
01:54:56,360 --> 01:54:59,680
Speaker 5: Thank you all very much. I will also give it

1985
01:54:59,720 --> 01:55:00,640
Speaker 5: to and a half.

1986
01:55:01,240 --> 01:55:06,360
Speaker 6: And there's there's so much casual, abless language in this movie.

1987
01:55:06,680 --> 01:55:08,400
Speaker 6: And and of course it's and I know that it's

1988
01:55:08,480 --> 01:55:10,320
Speaker 6: the nineties and I know they came out in twenty twelve,

1989
01:55:10,400 --> 01:55:12,560
Speaker 6: but also it's like casualable.

1990
01:55:12,560 --> 01:55:16,280
Speaker 1: Its way too casual, but you don't have to say it, yeah, yeah, exactly.

1991
01:55:16,320 --> 01:55:18,720
Speaker 3: There's a lot of like homophobic slurs as well, but

1992
01:55:18,760 --> 01:55:22,560
Speaker 3: they're always said by characters who we know are like

1993
01:55:22,640 --> 01:55:27,560
Speaker 3: bad people, and it's tricky. Sorry I continue.

1994
01:55:27,880 --> 01:55:30,680
Speaker 6: I there's a deleted scene where where junk Kusk is

1995
01:55:30,720 --> 01:55:32,879
Speaker 6: in the is in the opening because like the original

1996
01:55:32,880 --> 01:55:35,920
Speaker 6: plan was to have the film open in the hospital

1997
01:55:36,440 --> 01:55:38,280
Speaker 6: so that viewers could be like, oh, how did he

1998
01:55:38,320 --> 01:55:40,200
Speaker 6: get there or whatever, and then they and they decided

1999
01:55:40,240 --> 01:55:44,040
Speaker 6: to scrap it and My partner and I were watching

2000
01:55:44,080 --> 01:55:46,640
Speaker 6: it and he was like, Okay, so it's nice.

2001
01:55:46,440 --> 01:55:48,400
Speaker 5: That it opens with the tunnel and then it closes

2002
01:55:48,440 --> 01:55:49,120
Speaker 5: with the tunnel.

2003
01:55:52,000 --> 01:55:53,200
Speaker 1: Wow, I'm back.

2004
01:55:58,080 --> 01:56:02,240
Speaker 6: And again to say, like, I do really appreciate that

2005
01:56:02,280 --> 01:56:05,200
Speaker 6: there's a portrayal of a young person take taking medication

2006
01:56:05,600 --> 01:56:08,440
Speaker 6: and it's not framed in a way where it's like, oh,

2007
01:56:08,480 --> 01:56:11,000
Speaker 6: I stopped taking the meds because like they don't know.

2008
01:56:11,080 --> 01:56:13,480
Speaker 6: It doesn't portray who I am or whatever, because I

2009
01:56:13,520 --> 01:56:15,640
Speaker 6: see that way too often in movies, and it's nice

2010
01:56:15,640 --> 01:56:18,840
Speaker 6: that it's just it's just an objective thing.

2011
01:56:18,960 --> 01:56:21,240
Speaker 5: He just takes meds and it's fine.

2012
01:56:21,520 --> 01:56:23,840
Speaker 6: It is, and it is interesting listening to the commentary

2013
01:56:24,040 --> 01:56:28,840
Speaker 6: how like there's a producer, Russ Smith, who had advocated

2014
01:56:29,000 --> 01:56:32,240
Speaker 6: for making sure that scene remained in the movie, which

2015
01:56:32,280 --> 01:56:34,320
Speaker 6: which I find interesting, especially in the year of Like

2016
01:56:34,600 --> 01:56:36,680
Speaker 6: movie was made in twenty eleven, came out in twenty twelve,

2017
01:56:37,880 --> 01:56:40,840
Speaker 6: so I like that it normalized that for its time.

2018
01:56:41,600 --> 01:56:44,760
Speaker 6: I don't like how Junkies X character is like, oh,

2019
01:56:44,760 --> 01:56:46,480
Speaker 6: don't worry about the money, and it's like and it's

2020
01:56:46,560 --> 01:56:50,160
Speaker 6: like no, because it Steven SHABASKI like wanting to encourage

2021
01:56:50,200 --> 01:56:51,600
Speaker 6: kid's like, oh no, don't worry about the money, just

2022
01:56:51,640 --> 01:56:53,600
Speaker 6: go go to the hospital you need to, and.

2023
01:56:53,520 --> 01:56:55,360
Speaker 5: It's like no. And also again, when you.

2024
01:56:55,280 --> 01:56:58,040
Speaker 3: Think about work that for a lot of people.

2025
01:56:57,960 --> 01:56:59,800
Speaker 6: Right, when you think about kids of color and queer

2026
01:56:59,840 --> 01:57:02,600
Speaker 6: kid and trans kids who have terrible experiences in there,

2027
01:57:02,800 --> 01:57:05,400
Speaker 6: and like and how often psyche words are tied to

2028
01:57:05,560 --> 01:57:08,920
Speaker 6: the prison industrial complex. This like is not a happy

2029
01:57:09,000 --> 01:57:12,600
Speaker 6: ending for everybody, and it's and it's not accessible for everybody,

2030
01:57:12,920 --> 01:57:14,400
Speaker 6: not everyone can afford therapy.

2031
01:57:14,520 --> 01:57:17,320
Speaker 1: It's very like Puppies and Rainbow's approach to like law

2032
01:57:17,400 --> 01:57:19,440
Speaker 1: enforcement and American health care.

2033
01:57:19,920 --> 01:57:22,760
Speaker 6: Right, Yeah, and all the actors did did such a

2034
01:57:22,920 --> 01:57:25,840
Speaker 6: did such a great job, even though they're yeah, two

2035
01:57:25,920 --> 01:57:28,720
Speaker 6: actors being in it, it's like they're not great people.

2036
01:57:30,080 --> 01:57:34,320
Speaker 6: And I do appreciate that everyone's humanity is held well

2037
01:57:34,360 --> 01:57:36,800
Speaker 6: in place, because I know that in the commentary he

2038
01:57:36,960 --> 01:57:39,960
Speaker 6: was like there are no villains he kept saying, which

2039
01:57:39,960 --> 01:57:44,400
Speaker 6: I can appreciate, even when it comes to Helen's characters,

2040
01:57:44,560 --> 01:57:47,760
Speaker 6: as you were saying, like they portray her humanity without

2041
01:57:47,800 --> 01:57:49,240
Speaker 6: like excusing anything that.

2042
01:57:49,200 --> 01:57:53,880
Speaker 1: She did, right, which is like so hard to do.

2043
01:57:54,000 --> 01:57:55,760
Speaker 1: But yeah, it's felt like one of the things that

2044
01:57:56,160 --> 01:57:57,440
Speaker 1: they really succeeded at.

2045
01:57:57,840 --> 01:58:01,120
Speaker 6: Yeah, so I give it two and a half have nipples.

2046
01:58:01,440 --> 01:58:04,840
Speaker 6: One nipple is to be shared between May Whitman and

2047
01:58:04,880 --> 01:58:05,560
Speaker 6: Emma Watson.

2048
01:58:06,080 --> 01:58:08,920
Speaker 5: I was at South Advacy.

2049
01:58:08,560 --> 01:58:14,080
Speaker 6: For her, and Emma Watson overall does does a great

2050
01:58:14,160 --> 01:58:16,600
Speaker 6: performance and it's great that like this is this was

2051
01:58:16,600 --> 01:58:19,960
Speaker 6: her first movie where she gets to be a featured character.

2052
01:58:20,080 --> 01:58:22,120
Speaker 5: That was like, oh, that's like away from the Harry

2053
01:58:22,120 --> 01:58:25,920
Speaker 5: Potter franchise. I thought it was very cool that at.

2054
01:58:25,760 --> 01:58:28,200
Speaker 6: The time, for like, while prepping for press for this movie,

2055
01:58:28,200 --> 01:58:31,560
Speaker 6: Steve Schabaski was like, I don't know how to do this,

2056
01:58:31,600 --> 01:58:33,920
Speaker 6: and Emma Watson was like, oh, I have years of experience.

2057
01:58:34,000 --> 01:58:35,600
Speaker 5: Let me tell you.

2058
01:58:35,840 --> 01:58:38,080
Speaker 3: She knows how to be in a movie where she

2059
01:58:38,160 --> 01:58:41,360
Speaker 3: has two friends and both of them are both of them.

2060
01:58:42,120 --> 01:58:45,640
Speaker 1: That's true. This is Emma Watson canon and she ends

2061
01:58:45,720 --> 01:58:50,000
Speaker 1: up with one of the boys. Interesting, I've seen this before.

2062
01:58:50,840 --> 01:58:53,040
Speaker 3: And to be clear, I know we know that Ezra

2063
01:58:53,120 --> 01:58:56,440
Speaker 3: Miller is non binary. Yes, but the character of Patrick,

2064
01:58:56,760 --> 01:58:58,920
Speaker 3: you know uses he him pronouns.

2065
01:58:59,000 --> 01:59:01,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, we shuld have acknowledged that sooner.

2066
01:59:01,120 --> 01:59:04,200
Speaker 10: But anyway, So two and a half nipples, yeah, one nipples,

2067
01:59:04,200 --> 01:59:07,400
Speaker 10: shared between May Whitman and Emma Watson, so Mary Elizabeth

2068
01:59:07,440 --> 01:59:11,200
Speaker 10: and Sam one nipple that is shared between Nina doe

2069
01:59:11,200 --> 01:59:14,360
Speaker 10: Brev and Kate Walsh because there are some delete scenes

2070
01:59:14,400 --> 01:59:17,360
Speaker 10: with where Kate Walsh and Charlie interact as well that

2071
01:59:17,520 --> 01:59:18,360
Speaker 10: I'm getting.

2072
01:59:18,040 --> 01:59:20,880
Speaker 6: Deleted, which which personally I believe what was for the best.

2073
01:59:21,120 --> 01:59:23,960
Speaker 6: But still it's like Kate, Kate Walsh just deserves better

2074
01:59:24,040 --> 01:59:27,320
Speaker 6: in general, like Private Practice got canceled, Bad Judge got canceled.

2075
01:59:28,120 --> 01:59:32,480
Speaker 6: She she played, she played Hannah's mom and thirteen reasons why.

2076
01:59:32,800 --> 01:59:37,360
Speaker 1: I was like, like, she deserves so much better. Give

2077
01:59:37,440 --> 01:59:42,640
Speaker 1: this woman a role that isn't corny, challenge, like not possible. Actually,

2078
01:59:42,640 --> 01:59:45,160
Speaker 1: I haven't seen The Umbrella Academy maybe maybe really like

2079
01:59:45,760 --> 01:59:48,240
Speaker 1: but and she's in Emily in Paris. She's in every

2080
01:59:48,320 --> 01:59:50,040
Speaker 1: corny show of all time.

2081
01:59:50,120 --> 01:59:52,960
Speaker 5: And Ambrilla Academy. It's a good time. Like there are

2082
01:59:53,000 --> 01:59:54,880
Speaker 5: definitely some cheesyellas, but I had a great time.

2083
01:59:55,720 --> 01:59:57,880
Speaker 6: Oh my god, I've written about that show a lot

2084
01:59:57,960 --> 02:00:01,840
Speaker 6: last year. Anyways, And and the half nipple goes to

2085
02:00:02,040 --> 02:00:04,960
Speaker 6: Paul Rudd for shooting for twos.

2086
02:00:04,760 --> 02:00:07,640
Speaker 1: Care because he's in this Yeah, he's in the same

2087
02:00:07,720 --> 02:00:09,840
Speaker 1: room the whole time, and he's like, I need to

2088
02:00:09,880 --> 02:00:11,120
Speaker 1: cut my hair. I need something.

2089
02:00:11,200 --> 02:00:15,480
Speaker 3: He's like, Charles Dickens, great girl, My god, so correct.

2090
02:00:16,000 --> 02:00:17,720
Speaker 1: The last thing I want to say to close out

2091
02:00:17,760 --> 02:00:21,480
Speaker 1: the episode is about Pittsburgh, my new favorite American city.

2092
02:00:22,880 --> 02:00:26,720
Speaker 1: I love Pittsburgh. Pittsburgh's the best. And I was in

2093
02:00:26,760 --> 02:00:29,320
Speaker 1: Pittsburgh with Sarah Marshall and she and her friends are

2094
02:00:29,320 --> 02:00:34,040
Speaker 1: showing me this old tourism video for Pittsburgh that was

2095
02:00:34,160 --> 02:00:36,960
Speaker 1: so from like the late eighties, that was so defensive,

2096
02:00:37,480 --> 02:00:40,800
Speaker 1: like it was the most self conscious promotion of a

2097
02:00:40,880 --> 02:00:44,080
Speaker 1: city I've ever seen. But it's just like videos of

2098
02:00:44,160 --> 02:00:46,480
Speaker 1: Pittsburgh and you're and like, I think it gets a

2099
02:00:46,520 --> 02:00:49,280
Speaker 1: bad rap. But it opens with like all this all

2100
02:00:49,320 --> 02:00:51,760
Speaker 1: this voiceover that's like, why would I want to go

2101
02:00:51,800 --> 02:00:53,760
Speaker 1: to Pittsburgh.

2102
02:00:53,120 --> 02:00:58,680
Speaker 11: El Pittsburgh, Pittsburgh dip my car breakdown, and I was like,

2103
02:00:58,840 --> 02:01:02,880
Speaker 11: geez it, Like cuts to a sweeping view of Pittsburgh

2104
02:01:02,960 --> 02:01:06,400
Speaker 11: and this grand voice is like, Pittsburgh is actually a

2105
02:01:06,440 --> 02:01:09,760
Speaker 11: great American city, and then it says.

2106
02:01:10,760 --> 02:01:15,440
Speaker 1: My favorite part says Pittsburgh has the most bridges in

2107
02:01:15,560 --> 02:01:18,640
Speaker 1: any city in America or the world. And then there's

2108
02:01:18,680 --> 02:01:22,480
Speaker 1: a long pause, and then he goes except for Venice,

2109
02:01:22,640 --> 02:01:25,200
Speaker 1: and then it just goes to the next part. I

2110
02:01:25,280 --> 02:01:29,160
Speaker 1: just have never seen a more lukewarm endorsement of their

2111
02:01:29,200 --> 02:01:32,680
Speaker 1: own city. Shout out Pittsburgh. I'd like to give my

2112
02:01:32,760 --> 02:01:35,520
Speaker 1: nipples to doctor John Cusack and Pittsburgh.

2113
02:01:35,600 --> 02:01:40,200
Speaker 3: Okay beautiful, Yeah, yes, wow, well, thank you.

2114
02:01:41,960 --> 02:01:44,800
Speaker 6: Thank you so much for having me. This was delightful.

2115
02:01:45,400 --> 02:01:47,160
Speaker 6: This was incredible. Y'all are incredible.

2116
02:01:47,240 --> 02:01:50,000
Speaker 3: Come back for dear Evan Hansen.

2117
02:01:49,640 --> 02:01:53,200
Speaker 1: Oh my God, or something else or anything for something

2118
02:01:53,240 --> 02:01:54,880
Speaker 1: else that's true.

2119
02:01:55,120 --> 02:01:59,000
Speaker 6: Yeah, I will listen. I will do so much with y'all. Yeah,

2120
02:01:59,320 --> 02:02:00,000
Speaker 6: y'all are fantastic.

2121
02:02:00,800 --> 02:02:04,600
Speaker 3: Thank you so much. Where can people follow you on

2122
02:02:04,640 --> 02:02:07,960
Speaker 3: social media? Check out your work, plug your book if.

2123
02:02:07,880 --> 02:02:09,840
Speaker 5: Yeah, like yes, I would love to.

2124
02:02:10,400 --> 02:02:13,520
Speaker 6: Folks can find me at Maya Williamspoet dot com, m

2125
02:02:13,560 --> 02:02:17,000
Speaker 6: A y A Williamspoet dot com. I'm on Instagram and Twitter.

2126
02:02:17,480 --> 02:02:21,440
Speaker 6: M dub sixteen E M M dubb one six I

2127
02:02:21,440 --> 02:02:24,560
Speaker 6: have a poetry collection called Judith and Suicide. It is

2128
02:02:24,840 --> 02:02:30,120
Speaker 6: about have responding to religious related trauma and suicidality. There

2129
02:02:30,120 --> 02:02:32,480
Speaker 6: are different poems in the book that respond to different

2130
02:02:32,520 --> 02:02:35,880
Speaker 6: Bible verses. Where a completed suicide and attempted suicide or

2131
02:02:35,880 --> 02:02:40,640
Speaker 6: suicidal ideation takes place. The book also talks about how

2132
02:02:40,680 --> 02:02:44,160
Speaker 6: often do we use carceral language when discussing our mental

2133
02:02:44,200 --> 02:02:50,080
Speaker 6: health or suicidality, talks about healing from sexual violence, and

2134
02:02:50,120 --> 02:02:53,360
Speaker 6: it also involves some poems about how suicide is portrayed

2135
02:02:53,400 --> 02:02:56,440
Speaker 6: in film and TV. I write a lot of essays

2136
02:02:56,480 --> 02:03:01,640
Speaker 6: about mental health and suicide and an entertainment media. You

2137
02:03:01,640 --> 02:03:04,320
Speaker 6: can buy the game over books or at your local

2138
02:03:04,360 --> 02:03:08,000
Speaker 6: independent bookstore and they will get it for you. And

2139
02:03:08,000 --> 02:03:11,080
Speaker 6: and again wanting to do perks because again I was

2140
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Speaker 6: It's a formative movie for me when it came to

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Speaker 6: representation of suicidality, especially when it comes to the scene

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Speaker 6: where Charlie goes like, he just tell me how to

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Speaker 6: make it stop.

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Speaker 5: And that still.

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02:03:21,400 --> 02:03:24,520
Speaker 6: Resonating with me years later because it's like it doesn't stop.

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Speaker 5: Brontal. This mental health shit is.

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Speaker 6: Nonlinear and you go and learn and like. And also

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02:03:31,200 --> 02:03:34,600
Speaker 6: the book does a better Joe talking about Charlie's Catholic

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Speaker 6: upbringing as he's trying to navigate it's trying to navigate

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Speaker 6: sex and mental health, and like Mary Elizabeth's journey with

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Speaker 6: Buddhism has talked a little bit more, even though not

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Speaker 6: as well as Charlie navigating Catholicism because men think so.

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Speaker 6: I do wish that the movie had gave more of

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02:03:55,360 --> 02:03:59,760
Speaker 6: an opportunity to explore religion more. That wasn't just Mary

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02:04:00,080 --> 02:04:01,760
Speaker 6: with not knowing how ash Wednesday.

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Speaker 1: Works, right.

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Speaker 3: I wasn't sure if she just thought he had a

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02:04:05,760 --> 02:04:10,200
Speaker 3: smudge on his head or if she's just like religious anarchy.

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Speaker 3: Don't follow Mary.

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02:04:12,640 --> 02:04:15,520
Speaker 1: Oh my god, she's doing her best, but she's just

2161
02:04:15,600 --> 02:04:16,840
Speaker 1: like so much.

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02:04:20,080 --> 02:04:22,200
Speaker 5: Welly, no, go ahead.

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02:04:22,360 --> 02:04:25,480
Speaker 6: I did a video podcast series with my friend Mia

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02:04:25,560 --> 02:04:28,600
Speaker 6: Stewart Willis called Dying Laughing where we where we've talked

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Speaker 6: about the representation of suicidality and like television shows and

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02:04:32,800 --> 02:04:36,480
Speaker 6: movies and music we have. We have two more episodes

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02:04:36,560 --> 02:04:38,320
Speaker 6: coming out and then we're then we're closing it.

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Speaker 5: But yeah, that's a project I'm very proud of.

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Speaker 3: Awesome. Yes, check all of that out and you can

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02:04:44,360 --> 02:04:49,240
Speaker 3: follow us on Twitter and Instagram at Bechdel Cast. You

2171
02:04:49,280 --> 02:04:56,840
Speaker 3: can subscribe to our Patreon aka Matreon, where we cover

2172
02:04:56,960 --> 02:05:00,600
Speaker 3: two movies a month, or we do two episodes a month.

2173
02:05:01,000 --> 02:05:06,760
Speaker 3: Because earlier this month we explained the WGA strike, and

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02:05:07,000 --> 02:05:10,480
Speaker 3: we also have an episode on Newsy's coming out because

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02:05:10,600 --> 02:05:13,440
Speaker 3: it's Junie Junior.

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02:05:14,280 --> 02:05:15,920
Speaker 1: Get it in your head, get it through your head.

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02:05:15,920 --> 02:05:19,640
Speaker 1: It's really brilliant wordplay. It might not makes sense at first,

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02:05:19,720 --> 02:05:21,240
Speaker 1: but no, it's great.

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02:05:21,800 --> 02:05:24,000
Speaker 3: But that can be found at patreon dot com slash

2180
02:05:24,000 --> 02:05:27,760
Speaker 3: bectil cast five dollars a month those two bonus episodes

2181
02:05:27,880 --> 02:05:31,440
Speaker 3: every month, plus access to the entire back catalog.

2182
02:05:32,000 --> 02:05:34,560
Speaker 1: It's true. You can also go to teapublic dot com

2183
02:05:34,560 --> 02:05:39,240
Speaker 1: slash me Bechtel cast for all your merchandising needs. And

2184
02:05:39,320 --> 02:05:43,320
Speaker 1: with that, my friends, let's get into the truck and

2185
02:05:44,680 --> 02:05:47,000
Speaker 1: to wait Wait waits Hereditary.

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02:05:46,520 --> 02:05:48,640
Speaker 3: To Infinity and beyond.

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02:05:50,160 --> 02:05:55,600
Speaker 1: That's definitely what Percy Jackson said in the movie Bye

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Speaker 1: Okay Bye