WEBVTT - Calling Bullsh!t: Tarnished Trust? 0:00:04.440 --> 0:00:10.360 Welcome to the last episode of season one of Calling Bullshit. Today, 0:00:10.720 --> 0:00:13.120 we've decided to dig into some of the things we've 0:00:13.240 --> 0:00:17.120 learned from our guests, from our own research, and from 0:00:17.120 --> 0:00:20.120 our audience, and then I sit down with the founder 0:00:20.239 --> 0:00:25.320 of Sleeping Giants, Matt Rubbins. The main theme, of course, 0:00:25.560 --> 0:00:27.520 the thing that led us to do this show in 0:00:27.560 --> 0:00:33.680 the first place, is trust. I think, like almost all 0:00:33.760 --> 0:00:39.320 corporations are incredibly performative, especially during like with like Pride, 0:00:39.920 --> 0:00:43.600 and I think also with like Black History, ronth It's 0:00:43.640 --> 0:00:48.519 like all just very performative. In my opinion, we're suffering 0:00:48.560 --> 0:00:54.040 through a crisis of trust. People, especially young people, are 0:00:54.080 --> 0:00:57.960 just losing trust with institutions of all kinds, and they're 0:00:58.000 --> 0:01:01.760 calling bullshit. We wanted to get out and ask some 0:01:01.880 --> 0:01:05.199 folks how they feel, specifically about trust when it comes 0:01:05.240 --> 0:01:09.200 to businesses. So our producers, Haley and Basil hit the 0:01:09.240 --> 0:01:15.160 streets of New York. When you think of a company 0:01:15.200 --> 0:01:19.160 that is untrustworthy, what do you think of untrustworthy? There's 0:01:19.160 --> 0:01:21.160 a hundred different ways to look at it. When they 0:01:21.240 --> 0:01:24.120 like have all these ads like yes, try us, we're good, 0:01:24.240 --> 0:01:27.920 and then they let you down. If a company is 0:01:28.440 --> 0:01:31.760 pushing around funds and the money trail is a little shady. 0:01:32.040 --> 0:01:34.800 That's my biggest thing, like saying that they're like good 0:01:34.840 --> 0:01:37.880 and sustainable and like, but actually causing a lot of 0:01:38.000 --> 0:01:43.720 environmental harm. I think Amazon Amazon automatically think of Amazon. 0:01:44.120 --> 0:01:47.080 I've heard that they don't actually process their returns and 0:01:47.080 --> 0:01:49.560 they just throw them away a lot of times. It 0:01:49.600 --> 0:01:51.280 gets a lot of flak, but I don't know enough 0:01:51.320 --> 0:01:56.160 to pass judgment and clear of the closing doors. Please 0:01:58.960 --> 0:02:01.240 what company or come and he's are you most loyal too? 0:02:01.680 --> 0:02:04.880 And why? I shop at Reformation a lot because they 0:02:04.880 --> 0:02:08.120 seem like they're pretty environmentally friendly. I am most loyal 0:02:08.200 --> 0:02:14.239 to ari e I because ari I is really good 0:02:14.280 --> 0:02:17.959 with the environment and they have some nonprofits and it's 0:02:18.000 --> 0:02:21.040 just a lot of values that align with my values. 0:02:21.720 --> 0:02:25.400 So definitely Trader Joe's because they have great products and 0:02:25.520 --> 0:02:28.560 I think they do try to cut out plastic where 0:02:28.560 --> 0:02:33.520 they can. Today people are becoming increasingly activist in support 0:02:33.520 --> 0:02:37.360 of their beliefs, for example, changing their spending habits to 0:02:37.440 --> 0:02:41.560 align with those beliefs. When you think of conscious capitalism, 0:02:41.760 --> 0:02:45.720 like what comes to mind a business model that can 0:02:46.680 --> 0:02:51.360 make money and still do the whole capitalist thing. But 0:02:51.760 --> 0:02:55.160 doesn't harm any groups of people or the environment or 0:02:55.919 --> 0:02:58.920 diminish any cultures. I don't know if there's such thing 0:02:58.960 --> 0:03:02.680 as conscious capitalist them. I think shopping at small businesses, 0:03:03.240 --> 0:03:05.520 especially in New York City, is the only way to 0:03:05.560 --> 0:03:09.320 go if you're truly going to be like a good citizen. 0:03:09.800 --> 0:03:12.920 I usually research a company before I purchase anything. A 0:03:12.960 --> 0:03:16.480 few people even told us they boycott certain companies because 0:03:16.520 --> 0:03:21.320 of their values, like BP and Exxon, for example, Like 0:03:21.440 --> 0:03:24.080 I will refuse to get gas there just because they've 0:03:24.080 --> 0:03:29.760 done oil spills. I've stopped shopping at like Brandy Um 0:03:29.760 --> 0:03:33.400 Brandy Melville because of kind of like the whole body 0:03:33.400 --> 0:03:36.440 positivity movement. And one person felt like the system is 0:03:36.480 --> 0:03:39.880 just too hopeless to even support at all. Friends or 0:03:39.960 --> 0:03:42.920 I like, we don't feel bad about stealing from like 0:03:42.960 --> 0:03:45.720 Walgreens or things like that because it's a corporation. I 0:03:45.760 --> 0:03:47.760 don't think there's ever been a corporation where I'm like, damn, 0:03:47.800 --> 0:03:51.360 that's like they're doing something good. The actual data here 0:03:51.600 --> 0:03:58.200 is sobering. More than fifty of young people today reject capitalism. 0:03:58.240 --> 0:04:00.560 They don't trust that it has their interest us at heart, 0:04:00.640 --> 0:04:05.880 and they really care believe that companies have an obligation 0:04:06.280 --> 0:04:10.400 to help solve environmental and social problems. There is a 0:04:10.480 --> 0:04:13.920 growing list of companies out there who are doing this right, 0:04:14.000 --> 0:04:17.960 and the market rewards them. Purpose driven companies grow an 0:04:18.080 --> 0:04:21.800 average of three times faster than their competitors, while keeping 0:04:21.839 --> 0:04:26.400 their workforce and their customers more satisfied. In the long term, 0:04:26.520 --> 0:04:29.960 I believe this generation will force the old school bullshitters 0:04:30.000 --> 0:04:38.760 to shape up or ship out. When we started this season, 0:04:38.839 --> 0:04:41.880 I thought we'd chosen organizations with a wide range of 0:04:42.000 --> 0:04:45.599 BS scores. I honestly thought that more of these companies 0:04:45.600 --> 0:04:49.119 would fall somewhere in the middle. But that's not what happened. Often, 0:04:49.160 --> 0:04:53.280 as we dug in the deeper the b S got. Overall, 0:04:53.360 --> 0:04:56.280 we found that companies were either really low BS or 0:04:56.480 --> 0:04:59.600 pretty high. You can see this for yourself at our 0:04:59.640 --> 0:05:04.240 webs calling Bullshit podcast dot com. No matter where a 0:05:04.279 --> 0:05:06.920 company falls on the B S scale, each one taught 0:05:06.960 --> 0:05:11.120 us something new, and as we looked back, three overarching 0:05:11.200 --> 0:05:15.080 themes emerged about how purpose led companies really require a 0:05:15.120 --> 0:05:21.160 new approach. First, purpose is not marketing. You have to 0:05:21.360 --> 0:05:25.560 mean it. As Russell Diaz Canseco from Vital Farms told us, 0:05:25.880 --> 0:05:29.920 your purpose lives at the core of your business. You've 0:05:29.960 --> 0:05:32.560 got to live it. You have to live it, even 0:05:32.560 --> 0:05:34.920 in your darkest moment. You gotta do it for real. 0:05:35.360 --> 0:05:37.800 And you've got to start with the purpose and let 0:05:37.839 --> 0:05:40.880 the business model come from that, as opposed to trying 0:05:40.920 --> 0:05:43.200 to stick a purpose on top of a business model 0:05:43.200 --> 0:05:45.520 that you already think is the right one. And we 0:05:45.640 --> 0:05:49.360 encountered several organizations that use purpose as a marketing tool 0:05:49.520 --> 0:05:54.440 instead of an action driver. For example, Meta, formerly known 0:05:54.440 --> 0:05:57.560 as Facebook, says their purpose is to give people the 0:05:57.600 --> 0:06:00.760 power to build community and bring the world closer together, 0:06:01.240 --> 0:06:06.080 all the while prioritizing the most polarizing and often truly 0:06:06.160 --> 0:06:12.560 harmful content. Here's Ramas Treaty Bazan. The most heinous forms 0:06:12.560 --> 0:06:15.839 of speech are what are being most prioritized. So, you know, Tie, 0:06:15.920 --> 0:06:17.719 it's one thing for me to say, you know, you 0:06:18.000 --> 0:06:20.560 should be able to speak how you wish and you 0:06:20.560 --> 0:06:23.520 should be able to read what you want. It's another 0:06:23.560 --> 0:06:25.520 thing to say that, Tie, I'm just going to keep 0:06:25.560 --> 0:06:31.359 feeding you insane, crazy and at times conspiratorial and outrageous content. 0:06:31.640 --> 0:06:34.279 So you go crazy with a dopamine firing in your head, 0:06:34.560 --> 0:06:37.520 and it's like staring at a burning car the entire time. 0:06:38.560 --> 0:06:42.080 But Meta definitely isn't alone in saying one thing and 0:06:42.120 --> 0:06:44.840 doing another. As Joe No Sarah pointed out in our 0:06:44.839 --> 0:06:47.880 episode about the n c double A, the real bullshit 0:06:47.920 --> 0:06:49.720 factor to me about the n c A is how 0:06:49.920 --> 0:06:55.599 orwellian the language is. They screw player in a dozen 0:06:55.640 --> 0:06:59.520 different ways, and yet they always characterize what they're doing 0:06:59.680 --> 0:07:01.840 as being the force for good, as being the people 0:07:01.839 --> 0:07:05.600 who are trying to to save the college athlete. We'll 0:07:05.680 --> 0:07:09.200 take this story from Jamie hen about a leaked marketing 0:07:09.200 --> 0:07:14.120 presentation from BP. Instead of outlining strategies for actually reaching 0:07:14.160 --> 0:07:17.240 their goal of net zero, it was all about messaging. 0:07:17.520 --> 0:07:20.720 They run through this incredible series of slides about how 0:07:20.880 --> 0:07:24.440 the world changed in because of the global climate strikes 0:07:24.480 --> 0:07:27.440 in Grettith Thunberg and everything that had happened, and BP 0:07:27.600 --> 0:07:30.800 was wasn't trusted on this important issue of climate change 0:07:30.840 --> 0:07:32.920 that the public cared about. So they needed to do 0:07:33.000 --> 0:07:36.640 something to signal that they got it on climate change. 0:07:36.640 --> 0:07:38.960 It could be part of the energy transition. Of course, 0:07:39.000 --> 0:07:41.800 nothing in the presentation was actually about concrete things that 0:07:41.840 --> 0:07:45.040 they would do, like stopping gass production. It was all 0:07:45.080 --> 0:07:49.200 about the ways that they would remarket themselves. This brings 0:07:49.240 --> 0:07:54.680 me to my second major takeaway doing is believing the 0:07:54.800 --> 0:07:59.160 opposite of empty marketing is purposeful action. Many of our 0:07:59.200 --> 0:08:02.800 guests had sent pastic ideas for actions companies should take 0:08:02.880 --> 0:08:05.880 to help close the gap between what they say and 0:08:06.000 --> 0:08:09.880 what they do, like this idea that Matthew Weatherley White 0:08:10.000 --> 0:08:12.720 had for black Rock. If I were Larry think I 0:08:12.720 --> 0:08:15.520 would do one release, simple thing. I would change the 0:08:15.600 --> 0:08:22.640 new client form to require investors to opt out sustainable 0:08:22.760 --> 0:08:27.640 and impact investing and instead opt in. I think the 0:08:27.720 --> 0:08:31.360 messaging alone would give Larry Fink so much power, so 0:08:31.440 --> 0:08:35.280 much sort of political capital to force change within the 0:08:35.360 --> 0:08:42.880 organization that that institutional operational hesitation slash resistance slash intractability. 0:08:43.360 --> 0:08:45.520 I think it would sort of collapse on its own weight. 0:08:46.600 --> 0:08:51.480 Or this potential action for Meta from RMA Srinivasan, What 0:08:51.559 --> 0:08:55.319 if Facebook partnered with independent journalists in every single country 0:08:55.320 --> 0:08:58.640 where it operated so that those journalists could actually have 0:08:58.800 --> 0:09:04.000 power over media, you know, auditing, tweaking, working with Facebook 0:09:04.000 --> 0:09:07.160 technologies so that they could reach people in those countries 0:09:07.160 --> 0:09:10.840 in ways that are more fair. Good intentions must be 0:09:10.920 --> 0:09:14.559 backed by action. Being purpose led isn't an end state 0:09:14.800 --> 0:09:18.880 it's a journey. Like Andreine Clark explains, it can also 0:09:18.920 --> 0:09:22.160 be a fight, and I say, well, then you've got 0:09:22.200 --> 0:09:24.640 to grab the bull by the horn and wrestle with 0:09:24.679 --> 0:09:28.520 it and make it work for you. Wrestling with the 0:09:28.559 --> 0:09:32.280 problems actually trying to solve them is what makes being 0:09:32.320 --> 0:09:37.199 purpose led so exciting. But without trust, people just won't 0:09:37.200 --> 0:09:40.120 come along for the ride, which brings me to the 0:09:40.200 --> 0:09:44.280 third and final takeaway of this season. The key to 0:09:44.440 --> 0:09:49.080 trust is transparency. To be transparent, you have to tell 0:09:49.120 --> 0:09:52.520 people what's really going on. Are you achieving your purpose? 0:09:52.960 --> 0:09:55.560 Are there problems that you've encountered that you can't solve? 0:09:56.160 --> 0:10:00.839 Admit that private prison company Course Civic, for example, would 0:10:00.880 --> 0:10:06.600 benefit massively from being more transparent. So I can't find 0:10:06.800 --> 0:10:10.560 data on their website about a lot of things that 0:10:10.679 --> 0:10:13.160 I would typically look for in measuring whether they're running 0:10:13.200 --> 0:10:16.320 a constitutional present and there's a whole list of things 0:10:16.360 --> 0:10:18.960 that the facility needs to be measuring to show that 0:10:19.000 --> 0:10:23.040 they're in compliance with the constitution, And you don't see 0:10:23.040 --> 0:10:25.520 that type of data or that reporting on cours Civics 0:10:25.559 --> 0:10:28.640 website that Sharon Brett from the a c l U 0:10:28.880 --> 0:10:31.920 explaining just how hard it is to trust that Courcivic 0:10:32.080 --> 0:10:37.000 is living up to its stated purpose. But just collecting 0:10:37.080 --> 0:10:41.400 data isn't enough. You have to measure what matters. In 0:10:41.400 --> 0:10:45.000 our episode about America, Andrew Yang was inspired to start 0:10:45.000 --> 0:10:48.800 a third political party to restore faith in our system, 0:10:48.840 --> 0:10:54.320 partly based on the idea that GDP isn't everything. Right now, 0:10:54.360 --> 0:10:57.520 you have these economic indicators that are GDP and stock 0:10:57.600 --> 0:11:00.439 market prices, and they're going up in up, even as 0:11:00.480 --> 0:11:04.360 more people are sinking into the dirt. So what I 0:11:04.400 --> 0:11:07.360 believe we should do is take our human well being 0:11:07.440 --> 0:11:09.000 and look at it the same way we do stock 0:11:09.040 --> 0:11:11.080 market prices and say, okay, how are the kids doing? 0:11:11.559 --> 0:11:14.720 You know, how how are people doing? How are communities doing? 0:11:14.960 --> 0:11:17.880 We should be measuring our health, our mental health, our 0:11:17.960 --> 0:11:22.880 kids ability to learn, our environmental quality are affordability and 0:11:23.120 --> 0:11:28.680 access to healthcare and education. Measuring what matters and making 0:11:28.679 --> 0:11:32.520 those results public is a big part of being purpose led. 0:11:34.360 --> 0:11:38.080 It's easy to trust that all birds cares about sustainability. 0:11:38.440 --> 0:11:41.360 There's a comprehensive label explaining it to me on every 0:11:41.400 --> 0:11:45.920 shoe box, and everyone's compensation is tied to hitting their 0:11:45.920 --> 0:11:53.280 sustainability goals. CEO Joey's willinger that carbon emission reduction goal 0:11:53.360 --> 0:11:56.800 that we stated alongside our financial didance. I'm paid on that. 0:11:57.480 --> 0:11:59.839 If we don't hit those reduction targets for carbon and 0:12:00.240 --> 0:12:02.360 I don't make as much money, and same for all 0:12:02.360 --> 0:12:05.160 of the executives and and leadership team at All Birds. 0:12:05.240 --> 0:12:08.120 We think about ourselves as a purpose native company, so 0:12:08.160 --> 0:12:12.280 that alignment between mission and financial outcome was essential for us. 0:12:15.600 --> 0:12:18.760 So if you want to build trust and close the 0:12:18.800 --> 0:12:23.280 gap between word, indeed, start with a genuine purpose. Remember, 0:12:23.400 --> 0:12:29.000 actions speak louder than words. And finally, transparency will keep 0:12:29.040 --> 0:12:31.760 you honest. And since we try to hold ourselves to 0:12:31.840 --> 0:12:34.600 these same standards, you'll hear what it sounds like when 0:12:34.679 --> 0:12:49.240 somebody calls BS on us right after the break welcome back. 0:12:50.200 --> 0:12:52.800 In the spirit of participation, we set up a phone 0:12:52.880 --> 0:12:55.200 number where folks can call in and tell us what 0:12:55.240 --> 0:12:57.400 they think of the show. Did we get a score 0:12:57.440 --> 0:13:02.040 wrong or right? Where we maybe bullshit? Hey, it's tied 0:13:02.120 --> 0:13:04.800 to calling Bullshit podcast. I'd love to hear what's on 0:13:04.840 --> 0:13:08.000 your mind. And remember, if you leave a message, you 0:13:08.120 --> 0:13:13.680 might be featured on an upcoming episode. This is Whitney. 0:13:13.720 --> 0:13:17.360 I just listened to the Albird's episode. I thought it 0:13:17.400 --> 0:13:20.720 was super cool hearing about the materials innovations that Albert's 0:13:20.760 --> 0:13:24.800 is leading with their sweet phone and with the tree 0:13:24.920 --> 0:13:28.800 runner eucalyptus. And honestly, I'd never really thought much about 0:13:28.880 --> 0:13:32.200 how a lot of our sneakers are made out of 0:13:32.240 --> 0:13:36.720 oil or petroleum. Hey, I really like your podcast, but 0:13:36.760 --> 0:13:38.679 I gotta say is the latest episode on All Birds 0:13:38.800 --> 0:13:42.679 is purely a PR pluck Like there's nothing about calling bullshit. 0:13:42.800 --> 0:13:46.280 It's all about, like you know, praising the company, interviewing 0:13:46.320 --> 0:13:48.280 the co founder. So I would just encourage you have have 0:13:48.360 --> 0:13:50.880 to stick to your original format because you're almost like 0:13:51.440 --> 0:13:54.240 doing PR for other companies. Hi. There, I have to 0:13:54.280 --> 0:13:56.840 say my favorite episode has been Vital Farms. I absolutely 0:13:56.880 --> 0:14:00.920 love listening to the CEO's perspective about however, company is 0:14:01.040 --> 0:14:04.839 on a journey and the way to progress on that 0:14:04.920 --> 0:14:07.440 journey is to continue to set really audacious goals and 0:14:07.480 --> 0:14:11.520 to hold yourself accountable to those. Hi. I listened to 0:14:11.720 --> 0:14:14.880 an episode for the first time regarding what it kind 0:14:14.880 --> 0:14:19.160 of means to be an American, and I really enjoyed 0:14:19.320 --> 0:14:23.680 the many vantage points that you included in the episode, 0:14:23.760 --> 0:14:27.880 just kind of hearing from folks that are maybe similar minded, 0:14:28.000 --> 0:14:30.600 but been also talking to folks that you know may 0:14:30.600 --> 0:14:34.600 have had an opposite view. Hey, calling bullshit team, considering 0:14:34.600 --> 0:14:37.640 the delta between word, indeed between the American dream and 0:14:37.680 --> 0:14:40.800 lived experience with many Americans, you gave a score of 0:14:41.040 --> 0:14:44.400 sixty two. I would argue that it should be even higher. 0:14:44.640 --> 0:14:47.800 For where it's worth I'd give I'd like to hear 0:14:47.840 --> 0:14:50.880 more about wellness companies at a mass scow that are 0:14:50.880 --> 0:14:54.680 really challenging the stories that are fed to women in 0:14:54.680 --> 0:14:57.600 the capital society. I'd love to see some some more 0:14:57.640 --> 0:15:00.640 episodes on some of the big guys, the Amazons of 0:15:00.680 --> 0:15:03.360 the world, the Google's hear what you all think about 0:15:03.400 --> 0:15:08.200 some of these big tech giants. Another interesting episode for 0:15:08.280 --> 0:15:11.560 company to eament could be TikTok when you start to 0:15:11.600 --> 0:15:15.160 smell bullshit in a company? What are the telltale signs 0:15:15.160 --> 0:15:19.080 that a company is purpose washing versus you know we've 0:15:19.080 --> 0:15:24.080 made a mistake. Thanks so much, ye thank you everyone 0:15:24.080 --> 0:15:26.120 who took the time to call in, and please keep 0:15:26.160 --> 0:15:28.760 them coming. Even if we're in between seasons. The line 0:15:28.800 --> 0:15:31.480 will be open, so if you have any thoughts or opinions, 0:15:31.680 --> 0:15:35.160 hit us at two on to five oh five. Five. 0:15:38.360 --> 0:15:43.200 We also received some pretty critical feedback via email that 0:15:43.320 --> 0:15:48.480 surfaced some important questions and made some interesting suggestions. I've 0:15:48.520 --> 0:15:51.240 asked our producer D. S. Moss to read part of 0:15:51.280 --> 0:15:55.920 one from a listener we'll call Joe. It's hard to 0:15:55.960 --> 0:15:59.720 take this seriously coming from marketing consultants, people working for 0:16:00.040 --> 0:16:03.040 years in a field that has largely helped corporations avoid 0:16:03.080 --> 0:16:07.120 accountability and change rather than drive it. Why don't you 0:16:07.240 --> 0:16:10.760 start by calling bull on marketing firms first and foremost. 0:16:11.240 --> 0:16:14.280 They have the biggest say do gap of all. I 0:16:14.320 --> 0:16:16.520 certainly hope that some of the experts you bring on 0:16:16.680 --> 0:16:20.280 include activists who actually put their work and lives on 0:16:20.320 --> 0:16:22.920 the line to get corporations to make those statements in 0:16:22.960 --> 0:16:25.520 the first place, to show and to tell them what 0:16:25.560 --> 0:16:27.960 they need to do in order to change in meaningful 0:16:27.960 --> 0:16:32.120 ways instead of meaningless actions that do nothing real. You're 0:16:32.120 --> 0:16:34.760 talking about the classics say do gap to build your 0:16:34.800 --> 0:16:38.880 brand and to get clients. Other people do it and 0:16:38.960 --> 0:16:41.640 have done it long before you, and we'll do it 0:16:41.840 --> 0:16:44.600 long after you move on to something else, because they 0:16:44.600 --> 0:16:54.920 spend their lives devoted to the fight for social transformation. Ouch. Honestly, though, 0:16:55.080 --> 0:16:58.280 I thought Joe made some great points here. First, just 0:16:58.360 --> 0:17:02.360 to be clear, your purp is is not marketing. In fact, 0:17:02.600 --> 0:17:05.080 it's companies that think of it as marketing or as 0:17:05.119 --> 0:17:07.600 part of their brand image that get in trouble and 0:17:07.920 --> 0:17:12.600 maybe wind up as an episode of calling Bullshit. This 0:17:12.680 --> 0:17:15.199 email got me thinking more deeply about the role that 0:17:15.240 --> 0:17:18.960 advertising and marketing play in the bullshit sphere, and so 0:17:19.320 --> 0:17:22.000 I decided I wanted to have a conversation about trust 0:17:22.160 --> 0:17:26.480 with a real activist and also someone in advertising, the 0:17:26.520 --> 0:17:31.520 founder of Sleeping Giants, Matt Rivets. My conversation with Matt 0:17:32.160 --> 0:17:48.919 right after the break, welcome back. To dig more deeply 0:17:48.920 --> 0:17:52.080 into the topic of bullshit and marketing, I called up 0:17:52.160 --> 0:17:57.280 Matt Rivets, founder of social media activism organization Sleeping Giants. 0:17:59.160 --> 0:18:05.000 All right, folks, I am very pleased to introduce Matt Rivets. Matt, 0:18:05.200 --> 0:18:08.120 welcome to Calling Bullshit and thank you for being here. 0:18:08.600 --> 0:18:11.600 It's great to be here. Thanks for having me. So 0:18:11.760 --> 0:18:13.760 to start off, I'd love it if you would tell 0:18:13.800 --> 0:18:17.480 our listeners a little bit more about your journey in advertising, 0:18:17.680 --> 0:18:20.439 how you got started in the business, and then maybe 0:18:20.880 --> 0:18:24.119 a little bit more about how you began to become 0:18:24.119 --> 0:18:30.760 more activist. Yeah, I started in nineteen I had always 0:18:30.840 --> 0:18:33.159 kind of known that I was going to go into advertising. 0:18:33.200 --> 0:18:38.120 I was really obsessed with the early Cliff Freeman commercials. 0:18:38.480 --> 0:18:41.919 Little Caesar is that kind of thing, and between that 0:18:42.000 --> 0:18:45.359 and SNL, I just felt like that's something that I 0:18:45.359 --> 0:18:48.159 would like to do. And I was lucky enough to 0:18:48.200 --> 0:18:52.040 get a job and graduated early from college and got 0:18:52.200 --> 0:18:55.000 my first job in Boston and just started working at 0:18:55.200 --> 0:18:59.000 Needency there and it was just a great business to 0:19:00.119 --> 0:19:02.520 be super creative to level up. And then I moved 0:19:02.520 --> 0:19:06.000 to San Francisco and I got to work on Adidas, 0:19:06.040 --> 0:19:08.359 which I always wanted to be work on a sports brand. 0:19:08.680 --> 0:19:11.560 And then I went freelance, and I've got a great 0:19:11.560 --> 0:19:13.960 partner that I've been working with for a long time, 0:19:14.080 --> 0:19:16.920 and we just went and we worked at all these 0:19:16.920 --> 0:19:19.840 places that we'd always wanted to work. So two thousand 0:19:19.880 --> 0:19:24.240 sixteen rolled around and the election, everyone was feeling very raw, 0:19:24.440 --> 0:19:29.040 and I was feeling like I wasn't as concerned about 0:19:29.240 --> 0:19:32.960 Trump as I was about the rising tide of racism 0:19:33.040 --> 0:19:36.800 in the country. And I got particularly obsessed with Steve Bannon, 0:19:37.119 --> 0:19:39.560 who I felt like it was a really dangerous individual, 0:19:39.840 --> 0:19:43.320 and he he said at the time. It was just 0:19:43.359 --> 0:19:46.119 after two thousand sixteen, maybe around there. He gave a 0:19:46.119 --> 0:19:48.600 speech and he said, let them call your racist where 0:19:48.600 --> 0:19:52.119 it is a badge of honor. And I thought that 0:19:52.200 --> 0:19:55.240 was horrendous. These are I didn't think that existed. I 0:19:55.359 --> 0:19:58.520 was not really tuned to that, so I got really 0:19:58.520 --> 0:20:00.960 obsessed with him. He was at the time the president 0:20:01.080 --> 0:20:03.720 of bright Bart News. I had never heard a bright 0:20:03.760 --> 0:20:06.680 Bart before, and so I went online and I could 0:20:06.720 --> 0:20:09.160 not believe what I was looking at. There were these 0:20:09.280 --> 0:20:12.760 articles that said, hoisted high and proud, that Confederate flag 0:20:12.840 --> 0:20:16.520 proclaims the glorious heritage, and would you rather your child 0:20:16.600 --> 0:20:22.520 had feminism or cancer? And the real hard part about 0:20:22.560 --> 0:20:26.320 it was looking above all those articles and seeing ads 0:20:26.400 --> 0:20:29.840 for companies that I had worked on previously in my career, 0:20:30.640 --> 0:20:33.760 And so right then I knew there was something wrong 0:20:33.960 --> 0:20:37.119 to have brands that I knew as a writer. You know, 0:20:37.680 --> 0:20:40.720 they were notoriously scared and don't want a word out 0:20:40.720 --> 0:20:43.400 of place. And I'd spent the whole nights writing these 0:20:43.400 --> 0:20:46.119 ads making sure that nothing was offensive at all. To 0:20:46.160 --> 0:20:48.840 show up next to an article saying the Confederate flag 0:20:48.880 --> 0:20:53.560 is great seemed really off to me, and I just thought, why, 0:20:53.560 --> 0:20:55.800 why would they ever support this? And and as it 0:20:55.840 --> 0:20:58.320 turns out, I was right. They didn't really know. My 0:20:58.400 --> 0:21:02.159 parents were very area tune to the world, and I 0:21:02.359 --> 0:21:06.000 learned a lot about the Holocaust growing up because I'm 0:21:06.000 --> 0:21:09.160 a Jewish guy, and I had learned a lot about slavery, 0:21:09.200 --> 0:21:11.880 and I learned a lot about the human rights abuses, 0:21:11.960 --> 0:21:15.240 and they actively encouraged me to get involved whenever I could. 0:21:15.960 --> 0:21:18.800 So that was the beginning of my journey in this. 0:21:19.000 --> 0:21:22.040 I just felt like, alright, some action needs to be taken, 0:21:22.480 --> 0:21:25.040 and who around is going to do it except for me? 0:21:25.160 --> 0:21:28.600 I don't know. That's that's great, and so is that 0:21:28.680 --> 0:21:32.359 the moment that that Sleeping Giants was born. At the 0:21:32.400 --> 0:21:35.359 exact moment, I was really scared at the time, but 0:21:35.440 --> 0:21:38.240 I just decided to go for it. I opened up 0:21:38.400 --> 0:21:43.520 an anonymous Gmail account and an anonymous Twitter handle. I 0:21:43.600 --> 0:21:45.440 had had a Twitter account that I had sent ten 0:21:45.440 --> 0:21:49.920 tweets from all about the Baltimore Ravens horrific offense, and 0:21:49.960 --> 0:21:52.240 that was about it. That was my That was the 0:21:52.280 --> 0:21:55.800 depth of my knowledge about Twitter. But I did know 0:21:56.040 --> 0:21:58.440 that if you were sitting on the runway for two 0:21:58.440 --> 0:22:01.879 hours on a plane that you could tweet at the 0:22:01.920 --> 0:22:05.000 airline and say I've been sitting on the tarmac for 0:22:05.000 --> 0:22:07.480 two hours, and they would they were getting in touch. 0:22:07.560 --> 0:22:10.760 They'd respond instantly, and they would send you twenty miles 0:22:10.760 --> 0:22:13.160 for the trouble. So I knew I could either try 0:22:13.160 --> 0:22:16.359 to call these companies. That wasn't gonna work. So I 0:22:16.400 --> 0:22:20.119 opened up this anonymous Twitter handle. I found some shitty 0:22:20.119 --> 0:22:22.439 stock art to put on it, and I called it 0:22:22.600 --> 0:22:25.719 Sleeping Giants because I wanted it to seem like it 0:22:25.760 --> 0:22:29.400 was bigger than just one person. I put a crowd 0:22:29.560 --> 0:22:31.600 shot on the masthead to make it seem like there 0:22:31.640 --> 0:22:33.880 was a lot of people. There was no one following, 0:22:33.960 --> 0:22:37.040 and I wasn't following anyone at the time, so it 0:22:37.080 --> 0:22:42.760 was really just from scratch from scratch. So I took 0:22:42.800 --> 0:22:45.280 a screenshot of the first at I saw. It was 0:22:45.320 --> 0:22:48.879 for so Far, which is a progressive loan company in 0:22:48.920 --> 0:22:53.640 San Francisco, California, next to the article proclaiming the glory 0:22:53.680 --> 0:22:57.560 of the Confederate flag, and I tweeted it to the company, 0:22:57.640 --> 0:22:59.800 and then I tweeted it to the CEO who was 0:22:59.840 --> 0:23:02.960 all on Twitter, and the CEO got back to me 0:23:03.000 --> 0:23:06.520 within thirty minutes. It was so quick, and he said, 0:23:06.880 --> 0:23:09.240 I had no idea that our ad was on there, 0:23:09.359 --> 0:23:11.280 and I don't even know if there's anything I can 0:23:11.320 --> 0:23:13.280 do about it, but I'm going to try to get 0:23:13.280 --> 0:23:16.080 it down. And I said, there's got to be something 0:23:16.119 --> 0:23:20.040 wrong with the technology where brands don't know where they're 0:23:20.119 --> 0:23:23.240 ending up. And that was the beginning of all of it. 0:23:23.400 --> 0:23:25.680 I got real addicted to it. For someone that loves 0:23:25.720 --> 0:23:27.879 to level up, it was it made a ton of 0:23:27.920 --> 0:23:30.919 sense for me too. I'm like, okay, well now I 0:23:30.960 --> 0:23:33.879 got really obsessed and it felt really great. Right these 0:23:33.880 --> 0:23:35.879 this company said we're not going to advertise on this 0:23:35.920 --> 0:23:38.359 page anymore. We don't want to support the racism on 0:23:38.359 --> 0:23:40.680 this page. Okay, so there's got to be a bunch 0:23:40.680 --> 0:23:43.439 of brands that believe the same thing. So I started 0:23:43.440 --> 0:23:46.679 tweeting it every other brand that I could find. You 0:23:46.760 --> 0:23:49.040 just refresh and there's another brand that would pop up, 0:23:49.040 --> 0:23:52.000 really big ones. You know that we're placing ads all 0:23:52.000 --> 0:23:53.959 over the internet, and it's just one by one. They 0:23:54.160 --> 0:23:56.320 kept coming down. Day by day. They were like two 0:23:56.320 --> 0:23:58.119 and three that would come down. It was, you know, 0:23:58.160 --> 0:24:01.440 a week into it, and maybe of teen advertisers left, 0:24:02.320 --> 0:24:05.480 and did you ever get contacted by Breitbart. Did they 0:24:05.600 --> 0:24:08.920 notice that this was taken place? No, they it took 0:24:08.960 --> 0:24:11.000 a while to land on their radar. And all of 0:24:11.040 --> 0:24:12.680 a sudden, I had a friend who's the New York 0:24:12.680 --> 0:24:15.879 Times best selling author, and I said, what do you 0:24:15.880 --> 0:24:18.760 mind sending this out to your audience? So he sent 0:24:18.920 --> 0:24:21.760 his followers. I said, these guys are doing some interesting stuff, 0:24:21.880 --> 0:24:24.720 and all of a sudden I had a hundred more followers, 0:24:24.760 --> 0:24:28.440 and then two hundred, and then a thousand, and they 0:24:28.480 --> 0:24:31.640 were all watching as these advertisers would leave one by 0:24:31.680 --> 0:24:34.520 one and they would amplify the tweets that went out. 0:24:35.200 --> 0:24:38.360 And then I thought, well, you know what, like these 0:24:38.400 --> 0:24:40.760