1 00:00:04,440 --> 00:00:10,360 Speaker 1: Welcome to the last episode of season one of Calling Bullshit. Today, 2 00:00:10,720 --> 00:00:13,120 Speaker 1: we've decided to dig into some of the things we've 3 00:00:13,240 --> 00:00:17,120 Speaker 1: learned from our guests, from our own research, and from 4 00:00:17,120 --> 00:00:20,120 Speaker 1: our audience, and then I sit down with the founder 5 00:00:20,239 --> 00:00:25,320 Speaker 1: of Sleeping Giants, Matt Rubbins. The main theme, of course, 6 00:00:25,560 --> 00:00:27,520 Speaker 1: the thing that led us to do this show in 7 00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:33,680 Speaker 1: the first place, is trust. I think, like almost all 8 00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:39,320 Speaker 1: corporations are incredibly performative, especially during like with like Pride, 9 00:00:39,920 --> 00:00:43,600 Speaker 1: and I think also with like Black History, ronth It's 10 00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:48,519 Speaker 1: like all just very performative. In my opinion, we're suffering 11 00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:54,040 Speaker 1: through a crisis of trust. People, especially young people, are 12 00:00:54,080 --> 00:00:57,960 Speaker 1: just losing trust with institutions of all kinds, and they're 13 00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:01,760 Speaker 1: calling bullshit. We wanted to get out and ask some 14 00:01:01,880 --> 00:01:05,199 Speaker 1: folks how they feel, specifically about trust when it comes 15 00:01:05,240 --> 00:01:09,200 Speaker 1: to businesses. So our producers, Haley and Basil hit the 16 00:01:09,240 --> 00:01:15,160 Speaker 1: streets of New York. When you think of a company 17 00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:19,160 Speaker 1: that is untrustworthy, what do you think of untrustworthy? There's 18 00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:21,160 Speaker 1: a hundred different ways to look at it. When they 19 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:24,120 Speaker 1: like have all these ads like yes, try us, we're good, 20 00:01:24,240 --> 00:01:27,920 Speaker 1: and then they let you down. If a company is 21 00:01:28,440 --> 00:01:31,760 Speaker 1: pushing around funds and the money trail is a little shady. 22 00:01:32,040 --> 00:01:34,800 Speaker 1: That's my biggest thing, like saying that they're like good 23 00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:37,880 Speaker 1: and sustainable and like, but actually causing a lot of 24 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:43,720 Speaker 1: environmental harm. I think Amazon Amazon automatically think of Amazon. 25 00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:47,080 Speaker 1: I've heard that they don't actually process their returns and 26 00:01:47,080 --> 00:01:49,560 Speaker 1: they just throw them away a lot of times. It 27 00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:51,280 Speaker 1: gets a lot of flak, but I don't know enough 28 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:56,160 Speaker 1: to pass judgment and clear of the closing doors. Please 29 00:01:58,960 --> 00:02:01,240 Speaker 1: what company or come and he's are you most loyal too? 30 00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:04,880 Speaker 1: And why? I shop at Reformation a lot because they 31 00:02:04,880 --> 00:02:08,120 Speaker 1: seem like they're pretty environmentally friendly. I am most loyal 32 00:02:08,200 --> 00:02:14,239 Speaker 1: to ari e I because ari I is really good 33 00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:17,959 Speaker 1: with the environment and they have some nonprofits and it's 34 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:21,040 Speaker 1: just a lot of values that align with my values. 35 00:02:21,720 --> 00:02:25,400 Speaker 1: So definitely Trader Joe's because they have great products and 36 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:28,560 Speaker 1: I think they do try to cut out plastic where 37 00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:33,520 Speaker 1: they can. Today people are becoming increasingly activist in support 38 00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:37,360 Speaker 1: of their beliefs, for example, changing their spending habits to 39 00:02:37,440 --> 00:02:41,560 Speaker 1: align with those beliefs. When you think of conscious capitalism, 40 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:45,720 Speaker 1: like what comes to mind a business model that can 41 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:51,360 Speaker 1: make money and still do the whole capitalist thing. But 42 00:02:51,760 --> 00:02:55,160 Speaker 1: doesn't harm any groups of people or the environment or 43 00:02:55,919 --> 00:02:58,920 Speaker 1: diminish any cultures. I don't know if there's such thing 44 00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:02,680 Speaker 1: as conscious capitalist them. I think shopping at small businesses, 45 00:03:03,240 --> 00:03:05,520 Speaker 1: especially in New York City, is the only way to 46 00:03:05,560 --> 00:03:09,320 Speaker 1: go if you're truly going to be like a good citizen. 47 00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:12,920 Speaker 1: I usually research a company before I purchase anything. A 48 00:03:12,960 --> 00:03:16,480 Speaker 1: few people even told us they boycott certain companies because 49 00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:21,320 Speaker 1: of their values, like BP and Exxon, for example, Like 50 00:03:21,440 --> 00:03:24,080 Speaker 1: I will refuse to get gas there just because they've 51 00:03:24,080 --> 00:03:29,760 Speaker 1: done oil spills. I've stopped shopping at like Brandy Um 52 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:33,400 Speaker 1: Brandy Melville because of kind of like the whole body 53 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:36,440 Speaker 1: positivity movement. And one person felt like the system is 54 00:03:36,480 --> 00:03:39,880 Speaker 1: just too hopeless to even support at all. Friends or 55 00:03:39,960 --> 00:03:42,920 Speaker 1: I like, we don't feel bad about stealing from like 56 00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:45,720 Speaker 1: Walgreens or things like that because it's a corporation. I 57 00:03:45,760 --> 00:03:47,760 Speaker 1: don't think there's ever been a corporation where I'm like, damn, 58 00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:51,360 Speaker 1: that's like they're doing something good. The actual data here 59 00:03:51,600 --> 00:03:58,200 Speaker 1: is sobering. More than fifty of young people today reject capitalism. 60 00:03:58,240 --> 00:04:00,560 Speaker 1: They don't trust that it has their interest us at heart, 61 00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:05,880 Speaker 1: and they really care believe that companies have an obligation 62 00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:10,400 Speaker 1: to help solve environmental and social problems. There is a 63 00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:13,920 Speaker 1: growing list of companies out there who are doing this right, 64 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:17,960 Speaker 1: and the market rewards them. Purpose driven companies grow an 65 00:04:18,080 --> 00:04:21,800 Speaker 1: average of three times faster than their competitors, while keeping 66 00:04:21,839 --> 00:04:26,400 Speaker 1: their workforce and their customers more satisfied. In the long term, 67 00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:29,960 Speaker 1: I believe this generation will force the old school bullshitters 68 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:38,760 Speaker 1: to shape up or ship out. When we started this season, 69 00:04:38,839 --> 00:04:41,880 Speaker 1: I thought we'd chosen organizations with a wide range of 70 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:45,599 Speaker 1: BS scores. I honestly thought that more of these companies 71 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:49,119 Speaker 1: would fall somewhere in the middle. But that's not what happened. Often, 72 00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:53,280 Speaker 1: as we dug in the deeper the b S got. Overall, 73 00:04:53,360 --> 00:04:56,280 Speaker 1: we found that companies were either really low BS or 74 00:04:56,480 --> 00:04:59,600 Speaker 1: pretty high. You can see this for yourself at our 75 00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:04,240 Speaker 1: webs calling Bullshit podcast dot com. No matter where a 76 00:05:04,279 --> 00:05:06,920 Speaker 1: company falls on the B S scale, each one taught 77 00:05:06,960 --> 00:05:11,120 Speaker 1: us something new, and as we looked back, three overarching 78 00:05:11,200 --> 00:05:15,080 Speaker 1: themes emerged about how purpose led companies really require a 79 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:21,160 Speaker 1: new approach. First, purpose is not marketing. You have to 80 00:05:21,360 --> 00:05:25,560 Speaker 1: mean it. As Russell Diaz Canseco from Vital Farms told us, 81 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:29,920 Speaker 1: your purpose lives at the core of your business. You've 82 00:05:29,960 --> 00:05:32,560 Speaker 1: got to live it. You have to live it, even 83 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:34,920 Speaker 1: in your darkest moment. You gotta do it for real. 84 00:05:35,360 --> 00:05:37,800 Speaker 1: And you've got to start with the purpose and let 85 00:05:37,839 --> 00:05:40,880 Speaker 1: the business model come from that, as opposed to trying 86 00:05:40,920 --> 00:05:43,200 Speaker 1: to stick a purpose on top of a business model 87 00:05:43,200 --> 00:05:45,520 Speaker 1: that you already think is the right one. And we 88 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:49,360 Speaker 1: encountered several organizations that use purpose as a marketing tool 89 00:05:49,520 --> 00:05:54,440 Speaker 1: instead of an action driver. For example, Meta, formerly known 90 00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:57,560 Speaker 1: as Facebook, says their purpose is to give people the 91 00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:00,760 Speaker 1: power to build community and bring the world closer together, 92 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:06,080 Speaker 1: all the while prioritizing the most polarizing and often truly 93 00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:12,560 Speaker 1: harmful content. Here's Ramas Treaty Bazan. The most heinous forms 94 00:06:12,560 --> 00:06:15,839 Speaker 1: of speech are what are being most prioritized. So, you know, Tie, 95 00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:17,719 Speaker 1: it's one thing for me to say, you know, you 96 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:20,560 Speaker 1: should be able to speak how you wish and you 97 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:23,520 Speaker 1: should be able to read what you want. It's another 98 00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:25,520 Speaker 1: thing to say that, Tie, I'm just going to keep 99 00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:31,359 Speaker 1: feeding you insane, crazy and at times conspiratorial and outrageous content. 100 00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:34,279 Speaker 1: So you go crazy with a dopamine firing in your head, 101 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:37,520 Speaker 1: and it's like staring at a burning car the entire time. 102 00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:42,080 Speaker 1: But Meta definitely isn't alone in saying one thing and 103 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:44,840 Speaker 1: doing another. As Joe No Sarah pointed out in our 104 00:06:44,839 --> 00:06:47,880 Speaker 1: episode about the n c double A, the real bullshit 105 00:06:47,920 --> 00:06:49,720 Speaker 1: factor to me about the n c A is how 106 00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:55,599 Speaker 1: orwellian the language is. They screw player in a dozen 107 00:06:55,640 --> 00:06:59,520 Speaker 1: different ways, and yet they always characterize what they're doing 108 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:01,840 Speaker 1: as being the force for good, as being the people 109 00:07:01,839 --> 00:07:05,600 Speaker 1: who are trying to to save the college athlete. We'll 110 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:09,200 Speaker 1: take this story from Jamie hen about a leaked marketing 111 00:07:09,200 --> 00:07:14,120 Speaker 1: presentation from BP. Instead of outlining strategies for actually reaching 112 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:17,240 Speaker 1: their goal of net zero, it was all about messaging. 113 00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:20,720 Speaker 1: They run through this incredible series of slides about how 114 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:24,440 Speaker 1: the world changed in because of the global climate strikes 115 00:07:24,480 --> 00:07:27,440 Speaker 1: in Grettith Thunberg and everything that had happened, and BP 116 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:30,800 Speaker 1: was wasn't trusted on this important issue of climate change 117 00:07:30,840 --> 00:07:32,920 Speaker 1: that the public cared about. So they needed to do 118 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:36,640 Speaker 1: something to signal that they got it on climate change. 119 00:07:36,640 --> 00:07:38,960 Speaker 1: It could be part of the energy transition. Of course, 120 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:41,800 Speaker 1: nothing in the presentation was actually about concrete things that 121 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:45,040 Speaker 1: they would do, like stopping gass production. It was all 122 00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:49,200 Speaker 1: about the ways that they would remarket themselves. This brings 123 00:07:49,240 --> 00:07:54,680 Speaker 1: me to my second major takeaway doing is believing the 124 00:07:54,800 --> 00:07:59,160 Speaker 1: opposite of empty marketing is purposeful action. Many of our 125 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:02,800 Speaker 1: guests had sent pastic ideas for actions companies should take 126 00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:05,880 Speaker 1: to help close the gap between what they say and 127 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:09,880 Speaker 1: what they do, like this idea that Matthew Weatherley White 128 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:12,720 Speaker 1: had for black Rock. If I were Larry think I 129 00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:15,520 Speaker 1: would do one release, simple thing. I would change the 130 00:08:15,600 --> 00:08:22,640 Speaker 1: new client form to require investors to opt out sustainable 131 00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:27,640 Speaker 1: and impact investing and instead opt in. I think the 132 00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:31,360 Speaker 1: messaging alone would give Larry Fink so much power, so 133 00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:35,280 Speaker 1: much sort of political capital to force change within the 134 00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:42,880 Speaker 1: organization that that institutional operational hesitation slash resistance slash intractability. 135 00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:45,520 Speaker 1: I think it would sort of collapse on its own weight. 136 00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:51,480 Speaker 1: Or this potential action for Meta from RMA Srinivasan, What 137 00:08:51,559 --> 00:08:55,319 Speaker 1: if Facebook partnered with independent journalists in every single country 138 00:08:55,320 --> 00:08:58,640 Speaker 1: where it operated so that those journalists could actually have 139 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:04,000 Speaker 1: power over media, you know, auditing, tweaking, working with Facebook 140 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:07,160 Speaker 1: technologies so that they could reach people in those countries 141 00:09:07,160 --> 00:09:10,840 Speaker 1: in ways that are more fair. Good intentions must be 142 00:09:10,920 --> 00:09:14,559 Speaker 1: backed by action. Being purpose led isn't an end state 143 00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:18,880 Speaker 1: it's a journey. Like Andreine Clark explains, it can also 144 00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:22,160 Speaker 1: be a fight, and I say, well, then you've got 145 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:24,640 Speaker 1: to grab the bull by the horn and wrestle with 146 00:09:24,679 --> 00:09:28,520 Speaker 1: it and make it work for you. Wrestling with the 147 00:09:28,559 --> 00:09:32,280 Speaker 1: problems actually trying to solve them is what makes being 148 00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:37,199 Speaker 1: purpose led so exciting. But without trust, people just won't 149 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:40,120 Speaker 1: come along for the ride, which brings me to the 150 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:44,280 Speaker 1: third and final takeaway of this season. The key to 151 00:09:44,440 --> 00:09:49,080 Speaker 1: trust is transparency. To be transparent, you have to tell 152 00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:52,520 Speaker 1: people what's really going on. Are you achieving your purpose? 153 00:09:52,960 --> 00:09:55,560 Speaker 1: Are there problems that you've encountered that you can't solve? 154 00:09:56,160 --> 00:10:00,839 Speaker 1: Admit that private prison company Course Civic, for example, would 155 00:10:00,880 --> 00:10:06,600 Speaker 1: benefit massively from being more transparent. So I can't find 156 00:10:06,800 --> 00:10:10,560 Speaker 1: data on their website about a lot of things that 157 00:10:10,679 --> 00:10:13,160 Speaker 1: I would typically look for in measuring whether they're running 158 00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:16,320 Speaker 1: a constitutional present and there's a whole list of things 159 00:10:16,360 --> 00:10:18,960 Speaker 1: that the facility needs to be measuring to show that 160 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:23,040 Speaker 1: they're in compliance with the constitution, And you don't see 161 00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:25,520 Speaker 1: that type of data or that reporting on cours Civics 162 00:10:25,559 --> 00:10:28,640 Speaker 1: website that Sharon Brett from the a c l U 163 00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:31,920 Speaker 1: explaining just how hard it is to trust that Courcivic 164 00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:37,000 Speaker 1: is living up to its stated purpose. But just collecting 165 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:41,400 Speaker 1: data isn't enough. You have to measure what matters. In 166 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:45,000 Speaker 1: our episode about America, Andrew Yang was inspired to start 167 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:48,800 Speaker 1: a third political party to restore faith in our system, 168 00:10:48,840 --> 00:10:54,320 Speaker 1: partly based on the idea that GDP isn't everything. Right now, 169 00:10:54,360 --> 00:10:57,520 Speaker 1: you have these economic indicators that are GDP and stock 170 00:10:57,600 --> 00:11:00,439 Speaker 1: market prices, and they're going up in up, even as 171 00:11:00,480 --> 00:11:04,360 Speaker 1: more people are sinking into the dirt. So what I 172 00:11:04,400 --> 00:11:07,360 Speaker 1: believe we should do is take our human well being 173 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:09,000 Speaker 1: and look at it the same way we do stock 174 00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:11,080 Speaker 1: market prices and say, okay, how are the kids doing? 175 00:11:11,559 --> 00:11:14,720 Speaker 1: You know, how how are people doing? How are communities doing? 176 00:11:14,960 --> 00:11:17,880 Speaker 1: We should be measuring our health, our mental health, our 177 00:11:17,960 --> 00:11:22,880 Speaker 1: kids ability to learn, our environmental quality are affordability and 178 00:11:23,120 --> 00:11:28,680 Speaker 1: access to healthcare and education. Measuring what matters and making 179 00:11:28,679 --> 00:11:32,520 Speaker 1: those results public is a big part of being purpose led. 180 00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:38,080 Speaker 1: It's easy to trust that all birds cares about sustainability. 181 00:11:38,440 --> 00:11:41,360 Speaker 1: There's a comprehensive label explaining it to me on every 182 00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:45,920 Speaker 1: shoe box, and everyone's compensation is tied to hitting their 183 00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:53,280 Speaker 1: sustainability goals. CEO Joey's willinger that carbon emission reduction goal 184 00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:56,800 Speaker 1: that we stated alongside our financial didance. I'm paid on that. 185 00:11:57,480 --> 00:11:59,839 Speaker 1: If we don't hit those reduction targets for carbon and 186 00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:02,360 Speaker 1: I don't make as much money, and same for all 187 00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:05,160 Speaker 1: of the executives and and leadership team at All Birds. 188 00:12:05,240 --> 00:12:08,120 Speaker 1: We think about ourselves as a purpose native company, so 189 00:12:08,160 --> 00:12:12,280 Speaker 1: that alignment between mission and financial outcome was essential for us. 190 00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:18,760 Speaker 1: So if you want to build trust and close the 191 00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:23,280 Speaker 1: gap between word, indeed, start with a genuine purpose. Remember, 192 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:29,000 Speaker 1: actions speak louder than words. And finally, transparency will keep 193 00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:31,760 Speaker 1: you honest. And since we try to hold ourselves to 194 00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:34,600 Speaker 1: these same standards, you'll hear what it sounds like when 195 00:12:34,679 --> 00:12:49,240 Speaker 1: somebody calls BS on us right after the break welcome back. 196 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:52,800 Speaker 1: In the spirit of participation, we set up a phone 197 00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:55,200 Speaker 1: number where folks can call in and tell us what 198 00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:57,400 Speaker 1: they think of the show. Did we get a score 199 00:12:57,440 --> 00:13:02,040 Speaker 1: wrong or right? Where we maybe bullshit? Hey, it's tied 200 00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:04,800 Speaker 1: to calling Bullshit podcast. I'd love to hear what's on 201 00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:08,000 Speaker 1: your mind. And remember, if you leave a message, you 202 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:13,680 Speaker 1: might be featured on an upcoming episode. This is Whitney. 203 00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:17,360 Speaker 1: I just listened to the Albird's episode. I thought it 204 00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:20,720 Speaker 1: was super cool hearing about the materials innovations that Albert's 205 00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:24,800 Speaker 1: is leading with their sweet phone and with the tree 206 00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:28,800 Speaker 1: runner eucalyptus. And honestly, I'd never really thought much about 207 00:13:28,880 --> 00:13:32,200 Speaker 1: how a lot of our sneakers are made out of 208 00:13:32,240 --> 00:13:36,720 Speaker 1: oil or petroleum. Hey, I really like your podcast, but 209 00:13:36,760 --> 00:13:38,679 Speaker 1: I gotta say is the latest episode on All Birds 210 00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:42,679 Speaker 1: is purely a PR pluck Like there's nothing about calling bullshit. 211 00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:46,280 Speaker 1: It's all about, like you know, praising the company, interviewing 212 00:13:46,320 --> 00:13:48,280 Speaker 1: the co founder. So I would just encourage you have have 213 00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:50,880 Speaker 1: to stick to your original format because you're almost like 214 00:13:51,440 --> 00:13:54,240 Speaker 1: doing PR for other companies. Hi. There, I have to 215 00:13:54,280 --> 00:13:56,840 Speaker 1: say my favorite episode has been Vital Farms. I absolutely 216 00:13:56,880 --> 00:14:00,920 Speaker 1: love listening to the CEO's perspective about however, company is 217 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:04,839 Speaker 1: on a journey and the way to progress on that 218 00:14:04,920 --> 00:14:07,440 Speaker 1: journey is to continue to set really audacious goals and 219 00:14:07,480 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 1: to hold yourself accountable to those. Hi. I listened to 220 00:14:11,720 --> 00:14:14,880 Speaker 1: an episode for the first time regarding what it kind 221 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:19,160 Speaker 1: of means to be an American, and I really enjoyed 222 00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:23,680 Speaker 1: the many vantage points that you included in the episode, 223 00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:27,880 Speaker 1: just kind of hearing from folks that are maybe similar minded, 224 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:30,600 Speaker 1: but been also talking to folks that you know may 225 00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:34,600 Speaker 1: have had an opposite view. Hey, calling bullshit team, considering 226 00:14:34,600 --> 00:14:37,640 Speaker 1: the delta between word, indeed between the American dream and 227 00:14:37,680 --> 00:14:40,800 Speaker 1: lived experience with many Americans, you gave a score of 228 00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:44,400 Speaker 1: sixty two. I would argue that it should be even higher. 229 00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:47,800 Speaker 1: For where it's worth I'd give I'd like to hear 230 00:14:47,840 --> 00:14:50,880 Speaker 1: more about wellness companies at a mass scow that are 231 00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:54,680 Speaker 1: really challenging the stories that are fed to women in 232 00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:57,600 Speaker 1: the capital society. I'd love to see some some more 233 00:14:57,640 --> 00:15:00,640 Speaker 1: episodes on some of the big guys, the Amazons of 234 00:15:00,680 --> 00:15:03,360 Speaker 1: the world, the Google's hear what you all think about 235 00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:08,200 Speaker 1: some of these big tech giants. Another interesting episode for 236 00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:11,560 Speaker 1: company to eament could be TikTok when you start to 237 00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:15,160 Speaker 1: smell bullshit in a company? What are the telltale signs 238 00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:19,080 Speaker 1: that a company is purpose washing versus you know we've 239 00:15:19,080 --> 00:15:24,080 Speaker 1: made a mistake. Thanks so much, ye thank you everyone 240 00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:26,120 Speaker 1: who took the time to call in, and please keep 241 00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:28,760 Speaker 1: them coming. Even if we're in between seasons. The line 242 00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:31,480 Speaker 1: will be open, so if you have any thoughts or opinions, 243 00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:35,160 Speaker 1: hit us at two on to five oh five. Five. 244 00:15:38,360 --> 00:15:43,200 Speaker 1: We also received some pretty critical feedback via email that 245 00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:48,480 Speaker 1: surfaced some important questions and made some interesting suggestions. I've 246 00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:51,240 Speaker 1: asked our producer D. S. Moss to read part of 247 00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:55,920 Speaker 1: one from a listener we'll call Joe. It's hard to 248 00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:59,720 Speaker 1: take this seriously coming from marketing consultants, people working for 249 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:03,040 Speaker 1: years in a field that has largely helped corporations avoid 250 00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:07,120 Speaker 1: accountability and change rather than drive it. Why don't you 251 00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:10,760 Speaker 1: start by calling bull on marketing firms first and foremost. 252 00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:14,280 Speaker 1: They have the biggest say do gap of all. I 253 00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:16,520 Speaker 1: certainly hope that some of the experts you bring on 254 00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:20,280 Speaker 1: include activists who actually put their work and lives on 255 00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:22,920 Speaker 1: the line to get corporations to make those statements in 256 00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:25,520 Speaker 1: the first place, to show and to tell them what 257 00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:27,960 Speaker 1: they need to do in order to change in meaningful 258 00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:32,120 Speaker 1: ways instead of meaningless actions that do nothing real. You're 259 00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:34,760 Speaker 1: talking about the classics say do gap to build your 260 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:38,880 Speaker 1: brand and to get clients. Other people do it and 261 00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:41,640 Speaker 1: have done it long before you, and we'll do it 262 00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:44,600 Speaker 1: long after you move on to something else, because they 263 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:54,920 Speaker 1: spend their lives devoted to the fight for social transformation. Ouch. Honestly, though, 264 00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:58,280 Speaker 1: I thought Joe made some great points here. First, just 265 00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:02,360 Speaker 1: to be clear, your purp is is not marketing. In fact, 266 00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:05,080 Speaker 1: it's companies that think of it as marketing or as 267 00:17:05,119 --> 00:17:07,600 Speaker 1: part of their brand image that get in trouble and 268 00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:12,600 Speaker 1: maybe wind up as an episode of calling Bullshit. This 269 00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:15,199 Speaker 1: email got me thinking more deeply about the role that 270 00:17:15,240 --> 00:17:18,960 Speaker 1: advertising and marketing play in the bullshit sphere, and so 271 00:17:19,320 --> 00:17:22,000 Speaker 1: I decided I wanted to have a conversation about trust 272 00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:26,480 Speaker 1: with a real activist and also someone in advertising, the 273 00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:31,520 Speaker 1: founder of Sleeping Giants, Matt Rivets. My conversation with Matt 274 00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:48,919 Speaker 1: right after the break, welcome back. To dig more deeply 275 00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:52,080 Speaker 1: into the topic of bullshit and marketing, I called up 276 00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:57,280 Speaker 1: Matt Rivets, founder of social media activism organization Sleeping Giants. 277 00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:05,000 Speaker 1: All right, folks, I am very pleased to introduce Matt Rivets. Matt, 278 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:08,120 Speaker 1: welcome to Calling Bullshit and thank you for being here. 279 00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:11,600 Speaker 1: It's great to be here. Thanks for having me. So 280 00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:13,760 Speaker 1: to start off, I'd love it if you would tell 281 00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:17,480 Speaker 1: our listeners a little bit more about your journey in advertising, 282 00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:20,439 Speaker 1: how you got started in the business, and then maybe 283 00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:24,119 Speaker 1: a little bit more about how you began to become 284 00:18:24,119 --> 00:18:30,760 Speaker 1: more activist. Yeah, I started in nineteen I had always 285 00:18:30,840 --> 00:18:33,159 Speaker 1: kind of known that I was going to go into advertising. 286 00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:38,120 Speaker 1: I was really obsessed with the early Cliff Freeman commercials. 287 00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:41,919 Speaker 1: Little Caesar is that kind of thing, and between that 288 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:45,359 Speaker 1: and SNL, I just felt like that's something that I 289 00:18:45,359 --> 00:18:48,159 Speaker 1: would like to do. And I was lucky enough to 290 00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:52,040 Speaker 1: get a job and graduated early from college and got 291 00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:55,000 Speaker 1: my first job in Boston and just started working at 292 00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:59,000 Speaker 1: Needency there and it was just a great business to 293 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:02,520 Speaker 1: be super creative to level up. And then I moved 294 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:06,000 Speaker 1: to San Francisco and I got to work on Adidas, 295 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:08,359 Speaker 1: which I always wanted to be work on a sports brand. 296 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:11,560 Speaker 1: And then I went freelance, and I've got a great 297 00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:13,960 Speaker 1: partner that I've been working with for a long time, 298 00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:16,920 Speaker 1: and we just went and we worked at all these 299 00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:19,840 Speaker 1: places that we'd always wanted to work. So two thousand 300 00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:24,240 Speaker 1: sixteen rolled around and the election, everyone was feeling very raw, 301 00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:29,040 Speaker 1: and I was feeling like I wasn't as concerned about 302 00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:32,960 Speaker 1: Trump as I was about the rising tide of racism 303 00:19:33,040 --> 00:19:36,800 Speaker 1: in the country. And I got particularly obsessed with Steve Bannon, 304 00:19:37,119 --> 00:19:39,560 Speaker 1: who I felt like it was a really dangerous individual, 305 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:43,320 Speaker 1: and he he said at the time. It was just 306 00:19:43,359 --> 00:19:46,119 Speaker 1: after two thousand sixteen, maybe around there. He gave a 307 00:19:46,119 --> 00:19:48,600 Speaker 1: speech and he said, let them call your racist where 308 00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:52,119 Speaker 1: it is a badge of honor. And I thought that 309 00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:55,240 Speaker 1: was horrendous. These are I didn't think that existed. I 310 00:19:55,359 --> 00:19:58,520 Speaker 1: was not really tuned to that, so I got really 311 00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:00,960 Speaker 1: obsessed with him. He was at the time the president 312 00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:03,720 Speaker 1: of bright Bart News. I had never heard a bright 313 00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:06,680 Speaker 1: Bart before, and so I went online and I could 314 00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:09,160 Speaker 1: not believe what I was looking at. There were these 315 00:20:09,280 --> 00:20:12,760 Speaker 1: articles that said, hoisted high and proud, that Confederate flag 316 00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:16,520 Speaker 1: proclaims the glorious heritage, and would you rather your child 317 00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:22,520 Speaker 1: had feminism or cancer? And the real hard part about 318 00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:26,320 Speaker 1: it was looking above all those articles and seeing ads 319 00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:29,840 Speaker 1: for companies that I had worked on previously in my career, 320 00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:33,760 Speaker 1: And so right then I knew there was something wrong 321 00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:37,119 Speaker 1: to have brands that I knew as a writer. You know, 322 00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:40,720 Speaker 1: they were notoriously scared and don't want a word out 323 00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:43,400 Speaker 1: of place. And I'd spent the whole nights writing these 324 00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:46,119 Speaker 1: ads making sure that nothing was offensive at all. To 325 00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:48,840 Speaker 1: show up next to an article saying the Confederate flag 326 00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:53,560 Speaker 1: is great seemed really off to me, and I just thought, why, 327 00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:55,800 Speaker 1: why would they ever support this? And and as it 328 00:20:55,840 --> 00:20:58,320 Speaker 1: turns out, I was right. They didn't really know. My 329 00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:02,159 Speaker 1: parents were very area tune to the world, and I 330 00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:06,000 Speaker 1: learned a lot about the Holocaust growing up because I'm 331 00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:09,160 Speaker 1: a Jewish guy, and I had learned a lot about slavery, 332 00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:11,880 Speaker 1: and I learned a lot about the human rights abuses, 333 00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:15,240 Speaker 1: and they actively encouraged me to get involved whenever I could. 334 00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:18,800 Speaker 1: So that was the beginning of my journey in this. 335 00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:22,040 Speaker 1: I just felt like, alright, some action needs to be taken, 336 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:25,040 Speaker 1: and who around is going to do it except for me? 337 00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:28,600 Speaker 1: I don't know. That's that's great, and so is that 338 00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:32,359 Speaker 1: the moment that that Sleeping Giants was born. At the 339 00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:35,359 Speaker 1: exact moment, I was really scared at the time, but 340 00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:38,240 Speaker 1: I just decided to go for it. I opened up 341 00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:43,520 Speaker 1: an anonymous Gmail account and an anonymous Twitter handle. I 342 00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:45,440 Speaker 1: had had a Twitter account that I had sent ten 343 00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:49,920 Speaker 1: tweets from all about the Baltimore Ravens horrific offense, and 344 00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:52,240 Speaker 1: that was about it. That was my That was the 345 00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:55,800 Speaker 1: depth of my knowledge about Twitter. But I did know 346 00:21:56,040 --> 00:21:58,440 Speaker 1: that if you were sitting on the runway for two 347 00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:01,879 Speaker 1: hours on a plane that you could tweet at the 348 00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:05,000 Speaker 1: airline and say I've been sitting on the tarmac for 349 00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:07,480 Speaker 1: two hours, and they would they were getting in touch. 350 00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:10,760 Speaker 1: They'd respond instantly, and they would send you twenty miles 351 00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:13,160 Speaker 1: for the trouble. So I knew I could either try 352 00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:16,359 Speaker 1: to call these companies. That wasn't gonna work. So I 353 00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:20,119 Speaker 1: opened up this anonymous Twitter handle. I found some shitty 354 00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:22,439 Speaker 1: stock art to put on it, and I called it 355 00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:25,719 Speaker 1: Sleeping Giants because I wanted it to seem like it 356 00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:29,400 Speaker 1: was bigger than just one person. I put a crowd 357 00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:31,600 Speaker 1: shot on the masthead to make it seem like there 358 00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:33,880 Speaker 1: was a lot of people. There was no one following, 359 00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:37,040 Speaker 1: and I wasn't following anyone at the time, so it 360 00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:42,760 Speaker 1: was really just from scratch from scratch. So I took 361 00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:45,280 Speaker 1: a screenshot of the first at I saw. It was 362 00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:48,879 Speaker 1: for so Far, which is a progressive loan company in 363 00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:53,640 Speaker 1: San Francisco, California, next to the article proclaiming the glory 364 00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:57,560 Speaker 1: of the Confederate flag, and I tweeted it to the company, 365 00:22:57,640 --> 00:22:59,800 Speaker 1: and then I tweeted it to the CEO who was 366 00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:02,960 Speaker 1: all on Twitter, and the CEO got back to me 367 00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:06,520 Speaker 1: within thirty minutes. It was so quick, and he said, 368 00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:09,240 Speaker 1: I had no idea that our ad was on there, 369 00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:11,280 Speaker 1: and I don't even know if there's anything I can 370 00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:13,280 Speaker 1: do about it, but I'm going to try to get 371 00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:16,080 Speaker 1: it down. And I said, there's got to be something 372 00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:20,040 Speaker 1: wrong with the technology where brands don't know where they're 373 00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:23,240 Speaker 1: ending up. And that was the beginning of all of it. 374 00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:25,680 Speaker 1: I got real addicted to it. For someone that loves 375 00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:27,879 Speaker 1: to level up, it was it made a ton of 376 00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:30,919 Speaker 1: sense for me too. I'm like, okay, well now I 377 00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:33,879 Speaker 1: got really obsessed and it felt really great. Right these 378 00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:35,879 Speaker 1: this company said we're not going to advertise on this 379 00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:38,359 Speaker 1: page anymore. We don't want to support the racism on 380 00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:40,680 Speaker 1: this page. Okay, so there's got to be a bunch 381 00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:43,439 Speaker 1: of brands that believe the same thing. So I started 382 00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:46,679 Speaker 1: tweeting it every other brand that I could find. You 383 00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:49,040 Speaker 1: just refresh and there's another brand that would pop up, 384 00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:52,000 Speaker 1: really big ones. You know that we're placing ads all 385 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:53,959 Speaker 1: over the internet, and it's just one by one. They 386 00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:56,320 Speaker 1: kept coming down. Day by day. They were like two 387 00:23:56,320 --> 00:23:58,119 Speaker 1: and three that would come down. It was, you know, 388 00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:01,440 Speaker 1: a week into it, and maybe of teen advertisers left, 389 00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:05,480 Speaker 1: and did you ever get contacted by Breitbart. Did they 390 00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:08,920 Speaker 1: notice that this was taken place? No, they it took 391 00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:11,000 Speaker 1: a while to land on their radar. And all of 392 00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:12,680 Speaker 1: a sudden, I had a friend who's the New York 393 00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:15,879 Speaker 1: Times best selling author, and I said, what do you 394 00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:18,760 Speaker 1: mind sending this out to your audience? So he sent 395 00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:21,760 Speaker 1: his followers. I said, these guys are doing some interesting stuff, 396 00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:24,720 Speaker 1: and all of a sudden I had a hundred more followers, 397 00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:28,440 Speaker 1: and then two hundred, and then a thousand, and they 398 00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:31,640 Speaker 1: were all watching as these advertisers would leave one by 399 00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:34,520 Speaker 1: one and they would amplify the tweets that went out. 400 00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:38,360 Speaker 1: And then I thought, well, you know what, like these 401 00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:40,760 Speaker 1: people are all watching and they're cheering on but they could. 402 00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:43,679 Speaker 1: This is so easy. It's like taking a screenshot on 403 00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:49,520 Speaker 1: your phone tweeting it to an average everybody could. So 404 00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:53,160 Speaker 1: that kind of happened quick. I just put a set 405 00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:55,320 Speaker 1: of instructions on the pin tweet at the top of 406 00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:58,159 Speaker 1: the page, and it caught fire. All of a sudden, 407 00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:02,000 Speaker 1: there were ten advertised is leaving every hour, and I 408 00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:04,199 Speaker 1: just said to tag sleeping giants on the back so 409 00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:07,359 Speaker 1: I could keep track of them. And it just built 410 00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:10,879 Speaker 1: and built and built and built. Yeah, no, that's that's great. Well, 411 00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:15,480 Speaker 1: and this is like shame on me. I didn't become 412 00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:21,440 Speaker 1: aware of sleeping giants until later when you got engaged 413 00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:26,080 Speaker 1: with trying to get brands to boycott Facebook. When was that? 414 00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:28,760 Speaker 1: When did that? That was much later. It really became 415 00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:32,119 Speaker 1: to me an obsession about the platforms themselves. How do 416 00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:35,080 Speaker 1: you go deeper into this? It can't just be about advertisers. 417 00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:38,680 Speaker 1: It's got to be about platform accountability. These are advertising 418 00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:42,920 Speaker 1: platforms that are serving ads to two sites that really should. 419 00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:45,760 Speaker 1: There were white supremacist sites that were getting ads when 420 00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:48,919 Speaker 1: this thing started, and I sort of became obsessed with 421 00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:53,239 Speaker 1: Alex Jones, who was harassing Sandy Hook parents out of there. 422 00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:55,639 Speaker 1: His followers were harassing Sandy Hook parents out of their 423 00:25:55,640 --> 00:26:01,639 Speaker 1: homes after their children have been massacred, and yeah, it 424 00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:04,760 Speaker 1: just felt I just thought it was beyond the pale. 425 00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:08,200 Speaker 1: This person was doing this and he was a conspiracy theorist, 426 00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:11,080 Speaker 1: and he was making tons of money on YouTube from 427 00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:14,200 Speaker 1: ads and Facebook. And I was like, if an advertiser 428 00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:17,199 Speaker 1: had the option to sponsor this on TV, there's no 429 00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:19,040 Speaker 1: way way they would do it. So how are they 430 00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:22,399 Speaker 1: doing it on these platforms and I had started to 431 00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:25,920 Speaker 1: look up the terms of service on these platforms. How 432 00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:28,680 Speaker 1: nothing he was saying was matching up with their terms 433 00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:30,800 Speaker 1: of service. He should have been gone a long time ago, 434 00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:35,240 Speaker 1: according to their own rules. So I just started lobbying 435 00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:38,639 Speaker 1: effort on YouTube, and you know as sleeping giants, as 436 00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:42,320 Speaker 1: the whole sort of community started to really push this, 437 00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:45,320 Speaker 1: and there was no accountability that kept saying no, he 438 00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:47,359 Speaker 1: would get a strike here and a strike there, and 439 00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:48,800 Speaker 1: then that would go away. That was like they were 440 00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:52,720 Speaker 1: making up the rules as they went. And eventually I 441 00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:57,040 Speaker 1: got a call from a reporter that said, what do 442 00:26:57,080 --> 00:26:59,960 Speaker 1: you think about Alex Jones? And I said, what are you? 443 00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:02,680 Speaker 1: And he said, Apple just got rid of them from 444 00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:04,960 Speaker 1: their platform because they don't make their money from ads. 445 00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:08,159 Speaker 1: They're just they're a hardware company that also happens to 446 00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:11,280 Speaker 1: have some platforms, but they they're not relying on ad dollars. 447 00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:15,639 Speaker 1: And what happened after that was one by one, the 448 00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:18,840 Speaker 1: next day, YouTube got rid of them, and Facebook got 449 00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:21,359 Speaker 1: rid of them, and Twitter waited for another two weeks 450 00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:23,680 Speaker 1: and then they got rid of them. And I said, man, 451 00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:26,879 Speaker 1: that is no way to enforce your rules. Everyone should 452 00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:29,080 Speaker 1: have their own rules and they shouldn't be looking for 453 00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:31,760 Speaker 1: cover from anyone else. So that's really what got me 454 00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:34,520 Speaker 1: into the platforms. I thought that was really wrong beyond 455 00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:38,760 Speaker 1: ads supporting things, advertising supports these platforms and platforms make 456 00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:40,639 Speaker 1: up their own rules, and what we're seeing right now 457 00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:43,239 Speaker 1: in the world is they're really making it up as 458 00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:46,560 Speaker 1: they go. So that really became kind of obsession of 459 00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:51,320 Speaker 1: mind and then of sleeping giants rid large. Yeah, absolutely, yeah, 460 00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:54,120 Speaker 1: And so I mean, I'm not going to go into 461 00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:56,360 Speaker 1: the history of cod but we share a worldview. We've 462 00:27:56,359 --> 00:28:00,199 Speaker 1: taken different paths. But like you, I love to advertise thing. 463 00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:02,240 Speaker 1: I became addicted to it in a way the people 464 00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:04,880 Speaker 1: really actually it was such a fun business. And then 465 00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:08,000 Speaker 1: decided that there had to be a better way. You know, 466 00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:12,159 Speaker 1: I was becoming much more I guess, sensitized to the 467 00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:15,240 Speaker 1: damage that we were doing by just creating endless growth, 468 00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:18,800 Speaker 1: and so decided to jump out and do co collective 469 00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:22,439 Speaker 1: and you know, way led onto way we were working 470 00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:26,440 Speaker 1: with companies. I guess our thesis was, rather than tell 471 00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:29,840 Speaker 1: your story using paid media, you should do your story 472 00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:32,639 Speaker 1: through innovation and the customer experience, and that if we 473 00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:35,960 Speaker 1: could get companies to take action to make it make 474 00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:39,600 Speaker 1: their you know, their intent real through the customer experience, 475 00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:43,640 Speaker 1: we would close the gap between word indeed. And then 476 00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:46,640 Speaker 1: we decided to do this podcast because in the ten 477 00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:50,000 Speaker 1: years between the time that we started co and today, 478 00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:54,280 Speaker 1: purpose got really popular and we started to see examples 479 00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:57,120 Speaker 1: where it's like, well, that company is saying their purpose left, 480 00:28:57,200 --> 00:29:03,080 Speaker 1: they're definitely not. And the one that we became just 481 00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:06,560 Speaker 1: hyper aware of was Facebook, who says that they, you know, 482 00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:09,760 Speaker 1: want to empower everyone to build community and bring the 483 00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:14,920 Speaker 1: world closer together. Facebook is the most egregious when it 484 00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:19,640 Speaker 1: comes to that their messaging has been one of togetherness 485 00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:23,520 Speaker 1: and connecting the world while taking zero responsibility for what 486 00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:26,920 Speaker 1: they've cost. Yeah, literally doing the opposite. This is our 487 00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:30,000 Speaker 1: season wrap up episode, and so what we're trying to 488 00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:32,480 Speaker 1: do is just take stock and figure out what we've 489 00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:35,280 Speaker 1: learned so far, both from our experience just making the 490 00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:40,080 Speaker 1: show and and also about some feedback that we've received 491 00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:42,479 Speaker 1: on the show. And one of the most interesting pieces 492 00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:47,360 Speaker 1: of feedback that we've gotten is a listener who called 493 00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:52,000 Speaker 1: bs on us and me specifically for being, to use 494 00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:56,080 Speaker 1: his words, a marketing consultant who should be calling bullshit 495 00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:59,360 Speaker 1: on the marketing industry, and I thought that was a 496 00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:04,320 Speaker 1: totally or point, not like totally accurate, because marketing is 497 00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:07,440 Speaker 1: a big part of several of our episodes, Jewel and 498 00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:12,640 Speaker 1: and BP specifically, but definitely a topic worth discussing, and 499 00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:15,680 Speaker 1: so largely that's the territory I wanted to explore with 500 00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:18,160 Speaker 1: you today because you've been both like you're both a 501 00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:23,440 Speaker 1: highly awarded creative person in advertising and you're also an 502 00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:27,080 Speaker 1: activist in the advertising and marketing space. Yeah. I mean, 503 00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:29,160 Speaker 1: I'm a freelancer, so I've been really lucky. I've been 504 00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:32,960 Speaker 1: able to pick and choose the projects that I've worked on, 505 00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:35,680 Speaker 1: which has been great, but it is hard. Every time 506 00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:39,200 Speaker 1: that a job comes up, you kind of hold your 507 00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:42,560 Speaker 1: breath and go, Okay, is this gonna be the right 508 00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:45,560 Speaker 1: thing to do. Everyone's got their own code and what 509 00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:48,480 Speaker 1: they're willing to work on. How do you do that? 510 00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:52,320 Speaker 1: Math I I think I do have a line in 511 00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:54,920 Speaker 1: certain companies that I will definitely not work for on 512 00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:57,480 Speaker 1: Facebook being one of them, but there are companies that 513 00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:00,600 Speaker 1: are doing good things. The other thing is, sometimes you 514 00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:02,360 Speaker 1: feel like you can take one of these companies and 515 00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:05,480 Speaker 1: propose ideas that they you know, sometimes you need to 516 00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:08,320 Speaker 1: use the system itself to try to improve it, and 517 00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:11,520 Speaker 1: so you have an opportunity to sometimes do that, which 518 00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:13,920 Speaker 1: is great, and the companies are more open to it 519 00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:17,360 Speaker 1: now than they've been. But it is tough and it's 520 00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:19,000 Speaker 1: tough to hold the line. You know. I was an 521 00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:22,160 Speaker 1: inadvertent activist. I had no idea what I was getting into, 522 00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:25,719 Speaker 1: and that thing grew and wow. Yeah, back when I 523 00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:30,000 Speaker 1: was in more let's call it mainstream advertising, I didn't 524 00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:32,840 Speaker 1: want to do work with oil companies. I didn't want 525 00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:35,080 Speaker 1: to do work with chemical companies. I didn't want to 526 00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:40,480 Speaker 1: do work with cigarette companies. Those seemed pretty obvious to me. 527 00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:43,400 Speaker 1: And so you're right, it's sort of a personal, choose 528 00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:47,080 Speaker 1: your own adventure in that business. I was also lucky 529 00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:50,720 Speaker 1: enough to work for people who who allowed me to 530 00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:55,680 Speaker 1: recuse myself right based on my personal take, which I appreciated. 531 00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:59,520 Speaker 1: I was very energized and excited by what you were 532 00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:02,959 Speaker 1: doing with Facebook, and it got my attention that big 533 00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:06,120 Speaker 1: brands got on board for a while at least, and 534 00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:08,560 Speaker 1: and started saying we're not gonna advertise for a period 535 00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:11,440 Speaker 1: of time. Yeah, but that was that was a moment 536 00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:14,959 Speaker 1: in time that Unfortunately, you get more work done in 537 00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:18,240 Speaker 1: really tragic times. And that was on the heels of 538 00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:22,280 Speaker 1: George Floyd's murder and there were mass protests in the streets. 539 00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:26,920 Speaker 1: People were really angry, rightfully, So you just saw a 540 00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:30,240 Speaker 1: lot of these brands put a black square on their 541 00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:35,160 Speaker 1: Instagram page and say we support Black Lives Matter, and man, 542 00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:37,560 Speaker 1: that was bullshit for a lot of companies I talked 543 00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:43,960 Speaker 1: about calling bullshit. It just felt like they were being very, 544 00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:47,360 Speaker 1: very performative about their support. And we did some person 545 00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:49,760 Speaker 1: on the street interviews as a part of this episode 546 00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:52,640 Speaker 1: as well, and that word came up. People know, right 547 00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:56,480 Speaker 1: and that That's what's interesting is companies aren't fooling anybody 548 00:32:56,520 --> 00:32:58,960 Speaker 1: when they're when they do that. Not anymore. They used 549 00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:01,680 Speaker 1: to be able to do they were Information moves fast 550 00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:04,240 Speaker 1: now and there are a lot of reporters on this beat. 551 00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:09,160 Speaker 1: You can tell almost instantly if something isn't coming from 552 00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:11,320 Speaker 1: the right place, because there will be reporting on it 553 00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:13,280 Speaker 1: and we'll go out on Twitter and they will get 554 00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:15,720 Speaker 1: fil aid over it if they don't see it through 555 00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:20,040 Speaker 1: and everything they do. I I had been really interested 556 00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:22,560 Speaker 1: in doing some kind of Facebook action for about a year, 557 00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:25,960 Speaker 1: but never felt sleeping giants is not big enough to 558 00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:28,360 Speaker 1: do something like that. It was going to be throwing 559 00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:31,920 Speaker 1: a pebble in the ocean. And I got a call 560 00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:37,080 Speaker 1: from a couple of people, Jonathan Greenblatt at a d 561 00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:41,240 Speaker 1: L and Jim Styre at Common Sense Media, and they 562 00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:43,600 Speaker 1: called me and said, we kind of want to do 563 00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:46,760 Speaker 1: something about Facebook right now. I just said, I would 564 00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:48,800 Speaker 1: love to. I'm in a hunter whatever you want me 565 00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:51,200 Speaker 1: to do, Like, I'm so flatter do you even ask? 566 00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:53,959 Speaker 1: I wanted to do it for a while. But I 567 00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:57,360 Speaker 1: think they they, like I thought that we needed a 568 00:33:57,400 --> 00:34:00,440 Speaker 1: coalition to do it. We needed a much bigger show 569 00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:04,600 Speaker 1: of force from a number of different quarters for some 570 00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:07,959 Speaker 1: something on Facebook. And so I just said, look, I 571 00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:11,440 Speaker 1: think we need something definite here. We need something that's achievable. 572 00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:14,520 Speaker 1: Let's ask advertisers to take a month off. Take a 573 00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:17,680 Speaker 1: month off of Facebook, because they really were allowing this 574 00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:22,120 Speaker 1: racism to run wild, they were allowing disinformation to run wild, 575 00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:27,080 Speaker 1: especially during George Floyd. The toxicity of Facebook was egregious 576 00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:30,600 Speaker 1: and it worked. I mean, it was really a shot 577 00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:33,040 Speaker 1: in the dark. It's amazing to look back now and say, wow, 578 00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:37,600 Speaker 1: advertised was left within like a two week period, And 579 00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:41,000 Speaker 1: at first it started with the usual players like the 580 00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:45,319 Speaker 1: north Face and some more sort of conscious advertisers would lead. 581 00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:49,960 Speaker 1: And then I think we heard from Verizon and I'm like, 582 00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:53,360 Speaker 1: oh shit, this is happening now, And we all started 583 00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:56,759 Speaker 1: texting each other like this is happening. And I've just 584 00:34:56,800 --> 00:35:00,960 Speaker 1: seen enough with Fox and with bright Bar to know 585 00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:04,520 Speaker 1: that once one of those things happened, the rest come 586 00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:07,560 Speaker 1: down with it. And it was a tipping point, and 587 00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:12,200 Speaker 1: advertisers left, and we knew that they weren't going to 588 00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:14,720 Speaker 1: stay away for long, but they all made some really 589 00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:17,360 Speaker 1: good statements about it, and it was the first time 590 00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:21,359 Speaker 1: that there was some kind of dent in Facebook, and 591 00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:24,160 Speaker 1: we felt like, Okay, if we could just get people 592 00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:28,040 Speaker 1: to think about what they're supporting with their ad dollars, 593 00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:31,680 Speaker 1: then we have a chance to hold these companies accountable 594 00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:35,920 Speaker 1: long term, because advertising is ninety eight percent of Facebook's revenue, 595 00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:38,880 Speaker 1: and it's not the big advertisers, necessarily a small and 596 00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:42,000 Speaker 1: medium sized ones that really can't do business without it. Yeah, no, 597 00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:45,920 Speaker 1: it was. It was impressive. I guess it's it's slightly 598 00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:52,239 Speaker 1: disappointing to me that given the drumbeat of horrifying revelation 599 00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:57,520 Speaker 1: since then about Facebook and their practices that more companies 600 00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:01,080 Speaker 1: haven't just pulled off the platform completely. Yeah, and it 601 00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:04,680 Speaker 1: feels like Facebook they've got the world in a headlock 602 00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:09,440 Speaker 1: right there. You know, the biggest and best attention machine 603 00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:12,640 Speaker 1: in the world. And that's hard to resist if you've 604 00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:15,279 Speaker 1: got a thing that you need to sell. But it 605 00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:19,440 Speaker 1: would be great to see more clients making that a 606 00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:22,719 Speaker 1: permanent choice. There have been a few, and there have 607 00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:25,400 Speaker 1: been a few principled companies that have said we're not 608 00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:27,239 Speaker 1: going to do it anymore, and they say that it's hard. 609 00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:29,759 Speaker 1: It's hard to do it, and it really speaks to 610 00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:33,200 Speaker 1: the monopoly power of a couple of these companies. I mean, 611 00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:37,880 Speaker 1: we have basically an advertising duopoly and they own our industry, 612 00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:39,719 Speaker 1: not the way the other way around. Right now, it 613 00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:42,840 Speaker 1: should be the other way around. As advertisers, we should 614 00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:45,440 Speaker 1: we should be owning the relationship, not them. They are 615 00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:48,879 Speaker 1: wholly dependent on us. We are not wholly dependent on them, 616 00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:51,239 Speaker 1: but they've made it seem like we're wholly dependent on them. 617 00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:54,520 Speaker 1: So we need more competition in the market. We need 618 00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:56,680 Speaker 1: new platforms, we need other ways to reach people, and 619 00:36:56,719 --> 00:36:59,200 Speaker 1: we need to think about that more critically, You can't 620 00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:02,680 Speaker 1: just ask someone to wholesale leave the only way that 621 00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:05,040 Speaker 1: they can actually reach some people. That's not gonna work. 622 00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:09,040 Speaker 1: And one of the other levers is at agent season 623 00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:13,040 Speaker 1: PR companies themselves. You know, one of the activists that 624 00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:16,120 Speaker 1: we talked to this season for the VP episode was 625 00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:19,360 Speaker 1: a guy named Jamie hen who runs an organization called 626 00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:22,080 Speaker 1: Fossil Free Media. He's actually one of the co founders 627 00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:26,600 Speaker 1: of three fifty dot Org, and his thesis is that 628 00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:30,720 Speaker 1: ad agencies and PR companies are tools that bad companies 629 00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:33,560 Speaker 1: are using to do harm to the world, and so 630 00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:38,000 Speaker 1: he's overtly going directly after them. He overtly went after 631 00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:40,920 Speaker 1: Edelman for all the work that they do with Exxon, 632 00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:45,560 Speaker 1: for instance. What do you think about that? Look, I 633 00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:50,640 Speaker 1: think that the next phase of this is employee activism. 634 00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:53,319 Speaker 1: We saw it with Francis Hogan and Facebook. We've seen 635 00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:55,640 Speaker 1: it across the board, and I think the whistleblowers are 636 00:37:55,680 --> 00:37:59,959 Speaker 1: the most important people in this fight. Within the industry. 637 00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:04,279 Speaker 1: Our industry, particularly in advertising, we like the status quo 638 00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:07,320 Speaker 1: a whole lot. For an industry that loves change, loves 639 00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:10,200 Speaker 1: to tout change and say that we're changing the world. 640 00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:15,879 Speaker 1: We're really good at maintaining the status quo and and uh, 641 00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:18,400 Speaker 1: and I'd like to see that change. I'm still in advertising. 642 00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:20,040 Speaker 1: I want to be proud of what I do, and 643 00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:22,760 Speaker 1: I want to be proud of our industry. The governing 644 00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:27,480 Speaker 1: bodies of our industry are really doing a disservice to 645 00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:31,640 Speaker 1: the industry in some ways by blindly supporting Facebook and 646 00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:35,399 Speaker 1: Google all the time. When Facebook and Google are doing 647 00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:38,040 Speaker 1: us a disservice as advertisers, They're putting us next to 648 00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:41,800 Speaker 1: some really awful stuff. They're using our money to fund 649 00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:47,319 Speaker 1: information that has caused genocide and in two countries. So 650 00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:50,000 Speaker 1: I think it's really important for our industry to speak up. 651 00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:52,200 Speaker 1: I feel like it's important for people in every industry 652 00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:54,719 Speaker 1: to say raise their hand and say I think there's 653 00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:58,440 Speaker 1: something wrong with this. Yeah. And it's interesting because we 654 00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:02,080 Speaker 1: have seen whistleblowers in their industries. You mentioned Francis Hogan, 655 00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:05,760 Speaker 1: and the ad industry has had things like diet Madison Avenue, 656 00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:09,440 Speaker 1: which they were taking on toxic behavior in the workplace. 657 00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:14,040 Speaker 1: But I'm not actually aware of any whistleblowers from inside 658 00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:18,239 Speaker 1: ad agencies going after clients or client work. Have I 659 00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:21,399 Speaker 1: missed that having some of them haven't mystic because it's 660 00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:23,680 Speaker 1: not really happening. But I also don't know that a 661 00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:26,600 Speaker 1: lot of people, even people in advertising, don't understand the 662 00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:31,520 Speaker 1: mechanisms of what we support their I for sure did not, 663 00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:35,640 Speaker 1: right absolutely, we didn't. We didn't know, And I think 664 00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:38,799 Speaker 1: that was like the success of Sleeping Giants was more 665 00:39:38,840 --> 00:39:44,160 Speaker 1: of an informational nature, letting people know that advertising supports 666 00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:47,680 Speaker 1: all kinds of stuff. Right now, our entire online ecosystem 667 00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:51,520 Speaker 1: is supported by advertising. We hold up the Internet, the 668 00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:55,759 Speaker 1: free Internet. That's how everyone pays for websites, that's how 669 00:39:55,800 --> 00:40:00,400 Speaker 1: everyone pays for social networks. That's what we support. So 670 00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:03,440 Speaker 1: I think that we do need more education within the 671 00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:06,040 Speaker 1: industry to let people know what they're paying into with 672 00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:08,200 Speaker 1: their time. I don't think that we understand that, And 673 00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:10,879 Speaker 1: I also think that if they knew that, they would 674 00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:13,080 Speaker 1: speak up. And there are a lot of agencies that 675 00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:16,080 Speaker 1: won't work on certain things, and and hats off to them, 676 00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:19,160 Speaker 1: and that's great, but we do need employees to stand 677 00:40:19,239 --> 00:40:22,239 Speaker 1: up and say we shouldn't work on this right Well, 678 00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:24,480 Speaker 1: that leads to another question I had, which is do 679 00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:26,880 Speaker 1: you think the ad industry would ever circle the wagons 680 00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:30,160 Speaker 1: and refuse to do business with a particular industry or 681 00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:34,280 Speaker 1: an individual company. No or Yeah, somebody somewhere is always 682 00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:36,760 Speaker 1: willing to do that. There's always someone in every business. 683 00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:39,160 Speaker 1: I mean, advertising is no different than any business. They're 684 00:40:39,160 --> 00:40:41,719 Speaker 1: always bottom feeders in every industry. I'm not saying that, 685 00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:44,799 Speaker 1: you know, not not calling anyone a bottom feeder in particular, 686 00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:46,719 Speaker 1: but they're always going to be someone that's willing to 687 00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:49,799 Speaker 1: take the dough, especially now it's gotten really hard to 688 00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:53,520 Speaker 1: make a buck. You can't judge a company by trying 689 00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:55,520 Speaker 1: to pay their employees, you know, in the end of 690 00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:59,160 Speaker 1: the day. And and as an industry, it's really hard 691 00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:01,239 Speaker 1: to get anyone to go on anything like we were 692 00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:04,359 Speaker 1: really lucky that we got ten twelve organizations to all 693 00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:07,920 Speaker 1: be on the same page. To just go after Facebook 694 00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:11,720 Speaker 1: for a month, To get in all every adigency together 695 00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:14,200 Speaker 1: and say we're not going to support Blank anymore is 696 00:41:14,280 --> 00:41:18,240 Speaker 1: really tough to do. Yeah, Another thing that I've said 697 00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:22,320 Speaker 1: on this show, because I really believe it, is that 698 00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:29,160 Speaker 1: high BS companies and high BS industries, of which some 699 00:41:29,239 --> 00:41:33,200 Speaker 1: AD agencies and some PR companies and and marketing in 700 00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:38,080 Speaker 1: general is definitely guilty of, will begin to lose the 701 00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:41,000 Speaker 1: war for talent. Do you think that that's happening? Are 702 00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:45,440 Speaker 1: people choosing not to get into marketing, advertising pr today 703 00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:49,560 Speaker 1: young people because of this problem. I don't think that 704 00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:52,759 Speaker 1: people are as informed as they probably should be on 705 00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:55,600 Speaker 1: what they're paying into, but I think if they knew, 706 00:41:56,120 --> 00:41:58,480 Speaker 1: then they would be a little reticent. Look, we're seeing 707 00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:00,840 Speaker 1: there is there is death only there are people at 708 00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:03,480 Speaker 1: Facebook that are not happy and and sometimes you need 709 00:42:03,520 --> 00:42:07,440 Speaker 1: people internally to champion certain causes to make things happen. 710 00:42:07,520 --> 00:42:10,880 Speaker 1: But at some point some people are gonna sit up 711 00:42:10,960 --> 00:42:13,600 Speaker 1: and say, no, I want to work for a company 712 00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:15,680 Speaker 1: that's going to believe in something, that's gonna put their 713 00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:18,200 Speaker 1: foot down when it comes to doing something bad in 714 00:42:18,239 --> 00:42:20,640 Speaker 1: the world, and say I want to do something good 715 00:42:20,719 --> 00:42:23,120 Speaker 1: and and I'm really banking on that. I feel like 716 00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:26,200 Speaker 1: we need that. And I think when we have a counterbalance, 717 00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:28,160 Speaker 1: when you have an agency that's willing to stand up 718 00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:31,120 Speaker 1: and say, look, there are only certain kinds of accouncil 719 00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:33,880 Speaker 1: we will work on. Then once you have that counterbalance, 720 00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:35,239 Speaker 1: people are going to go and want to go work 721 00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:38,120 Speaker 1: for them instead. This next generation, my kids give a 722 00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:41,520 Speaker 1: ship and they look at everything critically. Now, maybe because 723 00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:44,560 Speaker 1: I've been such an asshole online for five years and 724 00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:49,200 Speaker 1: they've been listening to me. But this next generation does care. Yeah, 725 00:42:49,239 --> 00:42:52,080 Speaker 1: they do, and well it's because they're going to inherit 726 00:42:52,120 --> 00:42:55,880 Speaker 1: all the problems right, and they're acutely aware of that. 727 00:42:56,440 --> 00:42:59,719 Speaker 1: What advice would you give to creative people and strategists 728 00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:01,880 Speaker 1: and a count people working in the ad business or 729 00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:05,000 Speaker 1: the pr business who are wondering about the ethical issues 730 00:43:05,040 --> 00:43:08,320 Speaker 1: surrounding their career choice or who are trying to figure 731 00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:10,520 Speaker 1: out how to move it in a more positive direction. 732 00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:13,319 Speaker 1: I'd say, make a set of principles for yourself and 733 00:43:13,360 --> 00:43:16,239 Speaker 1: what you're willing to hold yourself to, and try to 734 00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:18,439 Speaker 1: stick to that as much as you can, and try 735 00:43:18,440 --> 00:43:21,560 Speaker 1: to encourage others to say the same thing. Yeah, I 736 00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:26,200 Speaker 1: agree on calling bullshit. We're we really believe that it's 737 00:43:26,239 --> 00:43:31,560 Speaker 1: important to try to nudge capitalism in a more sustainable direction, 738 00:43:31,680 --> 00:43:35,840 Speaker 1: and so we really believe in getting for profit companies 739 00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:39,359 Speaker 1: to change and really start to think differently about their 740 00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:43,960 Speaker 1: responsibilities to the communities that they do business in, you know, 741 00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:46,680 Speaker 1: and the planet. But my sense is that there are 742 00:43:46,719 --> 00:43:49,919 Speaker 1: folks a lot of young people among them who are 743 00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:53,720 Speaker 1: just beginning to call bs on that. So I guess 744 00:43:53,719 --> 00:43:57,319 Speaker 1: my question is, is sustainable capitalism itself just a bunch 745 00:43:57,360 --> 00:44:00,560 Speaker 1: of bullshit? No, I don't think it is. I think 746 00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:03,160 Speaker 1: we need it. I'm I'm a free market person. I 747 00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:05,760 Speaker 1: believe in the free market. I don't think it's working 748 00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:07,920 Speaker 1: right now. I think we've got a lot of monopolies. 749 00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:11,880 Speaker 1: What we're seeing with you know, the Amazons the world there. 750 00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:15,600 Speaker 1: You know, they just got their first union past, and 751 00:44:15,600 --> 00:44:18,279 Speaker 1: and so you're starting to see employees being able to 752 00:44:18,360 --> 00:44:20,839 Speaker 1: have some kind of be able to make a stand, 753 00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:22,840 Speaker 1: take a stand and make a difference. Money makes the 754 00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:26,120 Speaker 1: world go around, but I think it's incumbent upon us 755 00:44:26,160 --> 00:44:28,399 Speaker 1: to use that money in the right ways. I don't 756 00:44:28,440 --> 00:44:30,560 Speaker 1: think it's bullshit, or I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing. 757 00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:34,440 Speaker 1: I think that advertisers, you know, in our business, if 758 00:44:34,480 --> 00:44:38,560 Speaker 1: they are much more purposeful with how they spend their money, 759 00:44:38,719 --> 00:44:41,040 Speaker 1: then they're able to affect change on the platforms, and 760 00:44:41,080 --> 00:44:43,600 Speaker 1: then that in turn affects the world in a different way, 761 00:44:43,719 --> 00:44:46,200 Speaker 1: and it changes the trajectory of what we're on right now. 762 00:44:46,680 --> 00:44:51,440 Speaker 1: It's super idealistic, I know, but I'm an idealist. I 763 00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:53,520 Speaker 1: can't continue to all people without trying to come up 764 00:44:53,520 --> 00:44:57,280 Speaker 1: with a solution. Actually joined a company that is earnestly 765 00:44:57,360 --> 00:45:00,640 Speaker 1: trying to change the ad tech land escape. It's called 766 00:45:00,680 --> 00:45:03,840 Speaker 1: Noble Media, and I've been working with them for like 767 00:45:03,880 --> 00:45:06,080 Speaker 1: two years and we're just starting to get some traction. 768 00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:09,399 Speaker 1: It's nice. Can you just say more specifically what the 769 00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:13,000 Speaker 1: thesis is for Noble Media? Yeah, the the thesis is 770 00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:15,800 Speaker 1: you can't read the entire Internet, but you can try 771 00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:19,480 Speaker 1: through technology to do it. And so they're working with 772 00:45:19,480 --> 00:45:23,480 Speaker 1: a language scientists who's a professor of rhetoric to identify 773 00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:28,440 Speaker 1: signals incredible and trustworthy content and also vice versa in disinformation, 774 00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:33,880 Speaker 1: in hyperpartisan information and clickbait, and how to differentiate the 775 00:45:33,920 --> 00:45:36,359 Speaker 1: two of those things so that you can actually, as 776 00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:39,520 Speaker 1: an advertiser, you can target credibility on a page, which 777 00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:43,319 Speaker 1: gets in turn more clicks and more interaction with their 778 00:45:43,360 --> 00:45:46,480 Speaker 1: ads because it's on more trusted content. So for me, 779 00:45:46,600 --> 00:45:48,520 Speaker 1: it's an attempt to solve the problem that I've been 780 00:45:48,600 --> 00:45:51,880 Speaker 1: harping about, which is how can we help advertisers so 781 00:45:51,960 --> 00:45:54,560 Speaker 1: they can support quality content, which is what they should 782 00:45:54,560 --> 00:45:58,319 Speaker 1: be supporting anyway, and not support all the bullshit on 783 00:45:58,360 --> 00:46:00,000 Speaker 1: the rest of the Internet that they don't really need 784 00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:02,920 Speaker 1: to be supporting right now. The system doesn't allow them 785 00:46:03,000 --> 00:46:06,719 Speaker 1: to do that. This technology does m I love that. 786 00:46:06,840 --> 00:46:08,759 Speaker 1: I do too, or I wouldn't have joined. I love 787 00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:12,399 Speaker 1: it totally. That's fantastic. I hope that works me too. 788 00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:16,960 Speaker 1: Fingers crossed. I really do appreciate that you joined us today. 789 00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:20,000 Speaker 1: I totally enjoyed the conversation and thank you for the 790 00:46:20,040 --> 00:46:24,200 Speaker 1: work that you're doing both with Sleeping Giants and Noble Media. 791 00:46:24,360 --> 00:46:26,960 Speaker 1: Really appreciate it. Thanks for having me on. I mean 792 00:46:26,960 --> 00:46:29,720 Speaker 1: I really anytime you know, you can have an honest 793 00:46:29,719 --> 00:46:33,160 Speaker 1: discussion about an industry, I think it's a good opportunity 794 00:46:33,200 --> 00:46:40,279 Speaker 1: to take. So I really appreciate that. Man. So what 795 00:46:40,440 --> 00:46:44,360 Speaker 1: have we learned from all this? Are we qualified to 796 00:46:44,440 --> 00:46:50,440 Speaker 1: call bullshit? Should you, dear listener? Trust us? This podcast 797 00:46:50,560 --> 00:46:54,680 Speaker 1: is driven by maybe the optimistic belief that exposing gaps 798 00:46:54,719 --> 00:46:59,439 Speaker 1: between word indeed and then suggesting solutions is an act 799 00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:03,839 Speaker 1: of positive ativity. Talking with Matt reminded me of how 800 00:47:03,880 --> 00:47:07,399 Speaker 1: powerful information really is and how it can be used 801 00:47:07,440 --> 00:47:11,120 Speaker 1: for positive change. So we're definitely going to keep doing 802 00:47:11,120 --> 00:47:14,680 Speaker 1: what we're doing. I also want to double down on 803 00:47:14,760 --> 00:47:18,120 Speaker 1: something that we've done in every episode. If you're a 804 00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:20,640 Speaker 1: leader of a company that we featured on this show 805 00:47:21,040 --> 00:47:23,400 Speaker 1: and you want to come on and tell your side 806 00:47:23,400 --> 00:47:29,360 Speaker 1: of the story, you have an open invitation. I also 807 00:47:29,480 --> 00:47:31,360 Speaker 1: know that there are ways that we can do better. 808 00:47:31,600 --> 00:47:35,880 Speaker 1: In season two, We're going to feature more founders and 809 00:47:36,120 --> 00:47:41,000 Speaker 1: guests who are women and from marginalized groups. We're also 810 00:47:41,080 --> 00:47:46,520 Speaker 1: going to feature more companies from outside the US. Usually 811 00:47:46,640 --> 00:47:49,600 Speaker 1: I give a BS score right about now, but today 812 00:47:50,200 --> 00:47:53,799 Speaker 1: I'd like to invite you to score us. How are 813 00:47:53,840 --> 00:47:57,759 Speaker 1: we doing? Do you see any gaps between what we 814 00:47:57,880 --> 00:48:01,839 Speaker 1: say and what we do? Send us an email at 815 00:48:01,880 --> 00:48:05,920 Speaker 1: CBS podcast at co Collective dot com, or call us 816 00:48:06,040 --> 00:48:10,080 Speaker 1: at two one two five oh five five. I'm both 817 00:48:10,320 --> 00:48:17,960 Speaker 1: terrified and curious to know what you think. Thank you 818 00:48:18,120 --> 00:48:21,279 Speaker 1: for joining us today, Matt Rivets. You can find more 819 00:48:21,320 --> 00:48:25,440 Speaker 1: information on Sleeping Giants and Noble Media on our website, 820 00:48:25,880 --> 00:48:30,520 Speaker 1: Calling Bullshit Podcast dot com. And if you have ideas 821 00:48:30,560 --> 00:48:34,400 Speaker 1: for companies or organizations that we should consider for future episodes, 822 00:48:34,920 --> 00:48:38,399 Speaker 1: you can submit them on our site too. And if 823 00:48:38,440 --> 00:48:41,440 Speaker 1: we wet your appetite for another heap in help and 824 00:48:41,520 --> 00:48:45,400 Speaker 1: of BS in the fall, subscribe to the Calling Bullshit 825 00:48:45,520 --> 00:48:49,480 Speaker 1: Podcast on the I Heart Radio, App, Apple Podcasts or 826 00:48:49,520 --> 00:48:54,880 Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts. And thanks to our entire 827 00:48:55,000 --> 00:49:00,760 Speaker 1: season one production team Ethan Applebee, Susie Armitage, Hannah Beale, 828 00:49:01,320 --> 00:49:07,800 Speaker 1: Jess Fenton, Amanda Ginsburg, Andy Kim, D s Moss, Ali, 829 00:49:07,880 --> 00:49:15,320 Speaker 1: Nuen Hailey, Pascalites, MICHAELA. Reid, Lena Beck, Silison Parker Silzer, 830 00:49:15,920 --> 00:49:20,040 Speaker 1: Basil Soaper and me John Zulu. And thank you to 831 00:49:20,160 --> 00:49:23,520 Speaker 1: the whole team at co Collective for really supporting this 832 00:49:23,800 --> 00:49:29,799 Speaker 1: entire enterprise. Go Auntie Badgers Calling Bullshit was created by 833 00:49:29,840 --> 00:49:32,840 Speaker 1: co Collective and is hosted by Me Time Onto you, 834 00:49:33,360 --> 00:49:34,280 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.