1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:01,960 Speaker 1: This Day in History Class is a production of I 2 00:00:02,080 --> 00:00:07,040 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Welcome to This Day in History Class. I'm 3 00:00:07,120 --> 00:00:10,319 Speaker 1: Eves and it's the last day of March, which means 4 00:00:10,400 --> 00:00:13,360 Speaker 1: it's also the last day of Women's History Month. And 5 00:00:13,440 --> 00:00:15,880 Speaker 1: this month we've brought on a lot of special guests 6 00:00:15,960 --> 00:00:18,720 Speaker 1: to celebrate Women's History Month, and today we'll be doing 7 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:22,279 Speaker 1: the same. We'll be talking about the Motion Picture Production Code, 8 00:00:22,280 --> 00:00:25,160 Speaker 1: which is also known as the Hayes Code, and that 9 00:00:25,239 --> 00:00:29,800 Speaker 1: was ratified on March thirty one, ninety The Hayes Code 10 00:00:29,880 --> 00:00:32,920 Speaker 1: was this set of guidelines that subjected American films to 11 00:00:33,040 --> 00:00:36,800 Speaker 1: moral censorship. And you might be thinking, what does that 12 00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:39,720 Speaker 1: have to do with the celebration of women's history, But 13 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:44,600 Speaker 1: our guest today, Dr Nora Gilbert, has shown that censorship 14 00:00:44,760 --> 00:00:47,800 Speaker 1: did have benefits for women. Hi, Norah, how are you. 15 00:00:48,440 --> 00:00:51,919 Speaker 1: I'm good, How are you doing? I'm good? Good. So, Um, 16 00:00:51,920 --> 00:00:54,680 Speaker 1: I'm really really excited to talk to you today. I 17 00:00:54,760 --> 00:00:57,800 Speaker 1: honestly never thought, never thought about this angle to the 18 00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:01,080 Speaker 1: Hayes Code or two censorship in general until I saw 19 00:01:01,160 --> 00:01:06,080 Speaker 1: your work. So I'm just really so if you could 20 00:01:06,120 --> 00:01:09,679 Speaker 1: just start off by briefly breaking down what exactly the 21 00:01:09,720 --> 00:01:13,560 Speaker 1: motion picture production Code is and what it did m okay, 22 00:01:14,200 --> 00:01:17,200 Speaker 1: So a lot of people talk about pre code Hollywood 23 00:01:17,200 --> 00:01:19,640 Speaker 1: and postcode Hollywood and what they usually are meaning by 24 00:01:19,640 --> 00:01:23,039 Speaker 1: that is a breaking point that happened in nineteen thirty 25 00:01:23,080 --> 00:01:25,520 Speaker 1: four when a guy named Joseph Breen came and took 26 00:01:25,600 --> 00:01:28,119 Speaker 1: over what had already been in place for four years 27 00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:31,680 Speaker 1: by that point, which was the Production Code um and 28 00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:34,080 Speaker 1: he was the one who really enforced it in a 29 00:01:34,080 --> 00:01:35,640 Speaker 1: new way, and a lot of people think of that 30 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:37,720 Speaker 1: as the time was the code really got its teeth. 31 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:40,959 Speaker 1: But originally, back in nineteen thirty this is something that 32 00:01:41,080 --> 00:01:45,039 Speaker 1: came about because the motion picture industry did not want 33 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:48,640 Speaker 1: to have to deal with legal censorship, so censorship at 34 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:51,480 Speaker 1: the state and local levels, where people could just watch 35 00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:53,120 Speaker 1: a movie and say we're not going to screen it, 36 00:01:53,160 --> 00:01:54,960 Speaker 1: we we censor it. We're going to take out this scene, 37 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:57,480 Speaker 1: we're going to take out these words, and legally people 38 00:01:57,520 --> 00:02:00,640 Speaker 1: could do that pretty easily in nineteen thirty because motion 39 00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:03,520 Speaker 1: pictures were not considered to be covered under the First Amendment, 40 00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:06,520 Speaker 1: because they have been ruled in nineteen fifteen that Hollywood 41 00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:08,720 Speaker 1: is just a big business and it's not really art, 42 00:02:08,800 --> 00:02:10,760 Speaker 1: so we don't have to protect it in the same 43 00:02:10,800 --> 00:02:14,440 Speaker 1: way that other kinds of artists were protected, so they 44 00:02:14,440 --> 00:02:17,480 Speaker 1: could sense or anything they wanted to. The Hollywood producers 45 00:02:17,480 --> 00:02:20,400 Speaker 1: and filmmakers said, what are we gonna do to avoid this, 46 00:02:20,520 --> 00:02:22,880 Speaker 1: because there are a lot of protest groups that were complaining, 47 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:26,639 Speaker 1: especially in the nineteen twenties during the kind of scandalous 48 00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:29,680 Speaker 1: flapper era, kind of you know, Prohibition era, but when 49 00:02:29,720 --> 00:02:32,840 Speaker 1: things are kind of silent, pictures were getting kind of uh, 50 00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:34,800 Speaker 1: you know, their naked bodies on screen. There was a 51 00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:37,200 Speaker 1: lot of illifit sex going on in the screen and 52 00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:39,720 Speaker 1: a lot of drinking, and they didn't like that during Prohibition. 53 00:02:39,760 --> 00:02:42,240 Speaker 1: So they wanted to um find a way for the 54 00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:47,240 Speaker 1: movies to be made more socially acceptable and more financially lucrative. 55 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:49,640 Speaker 1: Because another thing to point out is that the stock 56 00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:52,840 Speaker 1: market crash, of course happens in and it's right after 57 00:02:52,919 --> 00:02:56,600 Speaker 1: that that the first production code UM is composed and 58 00:02:56,600 --> 00:02:59,960 Speaker 1: put into place, because they're really trying to appease their 59 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:02,280 Speaker 1: New York Wall Street backers and say, we're going to 60 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:05,920 Speaker 1: make movies as financially recruitive as possible, because we'll make 61 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:08,400 Speaker 1: them so they're safe for everyone. So everyone could go 62 00:03:08,480 --> 00:03:11,239 Speaker 1: see these movies. So in nineteen thirty, this group of 63 00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:14,240 Speaker 1: a few Catholic men got together and they said, we're 64 00:03:14,280 --> 00:03:17,919 Speaker 1: going to make this list. And it's a very comprehensive list. 65 00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:20,000 Speaker 1: It has a bunch of for you know, it has 66 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:23,400 Speaker 1: its general principles and then it's particular applications and then 67 00:03:23,440 --> 00:03:27,519 Speaker 1: just pages and pages of kind of defending why they 68 00:03:27,560 --> 00:03:30,280 Speaker 1: are objecting to the things they are and it's very 69 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:34,040 Speaker 1: you know, broad ranging and get very specific about certain things, 70 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:36,520 Speaker 1: but then also just talks some mofty terms about how 71 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:40,760 Speaker 1: they're going to save movies for America and so that 72 00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:43,120 Speaker 1: it's kind of how it got started, and it really 73 00:03:43,320 --> 00:03:46,040 Speaker 1: there were there are different audiences that it wanted to protect. 74 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:48,440 Speaker 1: It very specifically said it wanted to protect the young, 75 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:51,119 Speaker 1: so it was very afraid that young movie goers would 76 00:03:51,160 --> 00:03:54,000 Speaker 1: go and they would see these objectionable things. It was 77 00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:58,040 Speaker 1: very explicitly said that it cared about protecting people from 78 00:03:58,080 --> 00:04:01,160 Speaker 1: small communities as opposed to be cities. So back then 79 00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:03,880 Speaker 1: they were very sure that the rural folks would get 80 00:04:03,920 --> 00:04:07,720 Speaker 1: more corrupted by things than people who are in urban centers, 81 00:04:07,720 --> 00:04:11,640 Speaker 1: who are more sophisticated. And it doesn't say anything about 82 00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:14,760 Speaker 1: wanting to protect women explicitly. But my argument is that 83 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:18,359 Speaker 1: that's really underpinning a lot of what they're doing in 84 00:04:18,400 --> 00:04:21,039 Speaker 1: the code. They're very worried that women. There was a 85 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:24,839 Speaker 1: conception at the time that women were the main bulk 86 00:04:24,920 --> 00:04:27,000 Speaker 1: of movie goers and that they were the ones who 87 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:30,120 Speaker 1: were watching this stuff and getting corrupted by this stuff, 88 00:04:30,400 --> 00:04:33,560 Speaker 1: and so a lot of them these specific things that 89 00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:37,159 Speaker 1: they forbid. There was nothing that was specifically forbidden about men, 90 00:04:37,279 --> 00:04:39,839 Speaker 1: but there were things like they said, you know, dances 91 00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:42,359 Speaker 1: with movement of the breasts is forbidden to be seen 92 00:04:42,360 --> 00:04:45,479 Speaker 1: on screen, or um the sale of women or a 93 00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:48,280 Speaker 1: woman selling her virtue is to be forbidden. So it 94 00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:50,640 Speaker 1: was clear and some of the specific things they did 95 00:04:50,640 --> 00:04:53,320 Speaker 1: that they were worried more about how women were being 96 00:04:53,360 --> 00:04:56,240 Speaker 1: portrayed and what emil audiences would be getting than they 97 00:04:56,240 --> 00:04:58,839 Speaker 1: were worried about men. And the one quote that I 98 00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:02,440 Speaker 1: jotted down that I think is exemplify as what people 99 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:04,400 Speaker 1: are really thinking at the time, even though it wasn't 100 00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:08,599 Speaker 1: actually put into the code, is there's this Chicago local 101 00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:14,080 Speaker 1: film censor whose name is unbelievably major medalist Lucillus Cicero 102 00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:16,880 Speaker 1: funk Houser, Like such a mad up name that this 103 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:19,040 Speaker 1: is his name and his quote, as he says in 104 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:23,320 Speaker 1: nineties seventeen, he says his censorship policy is to eliminate 105 00:05:23,400 --> 00:05:26,719 Speaker 1: things that quote the male sex could stand, but that 106 00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:30,400 Speaker 1: might cause women to brood and lose their reason. So 107 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:33,039 Speaker 1: he's worried that women will just explode if they see 108 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:35,719 Speaker 1: this stuff on screen. And a lot of people really 109 00:05:35,720 --> 00:05:37,960 Speaker 1: were worried about that, even though that's not really written 110 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:40,359 Speaker 1: in the production code in the same way. So that 111 00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:42,960 Speaker 1: was a very long answer, but sure all things that 112 00:05:43,040 --> 00:05:45,320 Speaker 1: led up to the code being the way it was. Yeah, 113 00:05:45,320 --> 00:05:49,440 Speaker 1: So there's a ton of documentation out there about how 114 00:05:49,520 --> 00:05:54,719 Speaker 1: that censorship kind of stifled expression. And as you pointed out, 115 00:05:54,920 --> 00:05:58,560 Speaker 1: the censor was not necessarily the enemy of the artists, 116 00:05:58,600 --> 00:06:00,479 Speaker 1: but they kind of worked together with the artists to 117 00:06:00,520 --> 00:06:04,799 Speaker 1: create this subtext. So beyond that argument that the Hayes 118 00:06:04,839 --> 00:06:10,239 Speaker 1: Code restricted women's expression, what role did it play for 119 00:06:10,760 --> 00:06:14,920 Speaker 1: you know, the benefit of women in film? There? Maybe feminism? Right, So, 120 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:17,839 Speaker 1: I mean, one thing about feminism is that has all 121 00:06:17,880 --> 00:06:20,920 Speaker 1: these you know, different perspectives of course in different strands, 122 00:06:20,920 --> 00:06:23,200 Speaker 1: and you can be a feminist with very different attitude 123 00:06:23,279 --> 00:06:27,000 Speaker 1: towards a sexuality, and so there's certainly some feminists would 124 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:30,160 Speaker 1: say the more that you're trying to not show female 125 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:34,680 Speaker 1: sexuality that stifling and that's you know, hindering um women's freedom, 126 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:37,000 Speaker 1: which I can certainly see that standpoint as well. But 127 00:06:37,279 --> 00:06:41,080 Speaker 1: another standpoint is that women are very because they're so sexualized. 128 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:44,640 Speaker 1: They're objectified on screen and so very famous. A piece 129 00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:47,280 Speaker 1: of film feminist film criticism by Laura Multi from the 130 00:06:47,320 --> 00:06:50,480 Speaker 1: nineteen seventies says that you know, the cinema is has 131 00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:53,559 Speaker 1: is all about the male gaze, and it's objectifying to women, 132 00:06:53,600 --> 00:06:55,760 Speaker 1: and women are just kind of, you know, these sexual 133 00:06:55,760 --> 00:06:58,360 Speaker 1: objects to be consumed by men. So in terms of 134 00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:02,000 Speaker 1: that strain of feminism, I would say that interestingly, censorship 135 00:07:02,240 --> 00:07:05,480 Speaker 1: it was not done in the name of making women 136 00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:08,039 Speaker 1: more empowered by any means. It was created by men, 137 00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:11,040 Speaker 1: I think four men. But what it did was it 138 00:07:11,360 --> 00:07:14,520 Speaker 1: kind of tried to stifle some of the overt um 139 00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:18,920 Speaker 1: objectification and sexualization of women in terms of they're trying 140 00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:21,520 Speaker 1: to not just be a bunch of bodies on screen 141 00:07:21,520 --> 00:07:23,600 Speaker 1: and the stuff that you see in pre code Hollywood, 142 00:07:23,840 --> 00:07:26,040 Speaker 1: I mean, so much of it is wonderful and exciting 143 00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:28,400 Speaker 1: and sexy in many ways. But it also is like 144 00:07:28,440 --> 00:07:31,040 Speaker 1: if you think of like the buzzy Berkeley musicals that 145 00:07:31,080 --> 00:07:35,160 Speaker 1: are just a bunch of like women's bodies just like disembodied, 146 00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:38,000 Speaker 1: these legs that looked like a kaleidoscope going around. And 147 00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:40,920 Speaker 1: this was during the years before the Code was enforced. 148 00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:44,800 Speaker 1: Women were so hyperbolically sexualized that I think that when 149 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:47,520 Speaker 1: the Code came around, it had to make sex into 150 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:49,800 Speaker 1: something else that I didn't want to lose its sex 151 00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:52,360 Speaker 1: appeal for audiences because it still knew that sex sold. 152 00:07:52,720 --> 00:07:55,120 Speaker 1: But what it did and and the post code years, 153 00:07:55,160 --> 00:07:58,040 Speaker 1: by which I mean post nineteen thirty four, is that 154 00:07:58,720 --> 00:08:01,080 Speaker 1: we then started having this genre of films that came 155 00:08:01,080 --> 00:08:05,160 Speaker 1: about where women's sexuality was expressed through their talking and 156 00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:08,720 Speaker 1: their witty banter, the screwball comedy, the romantic comedies of 157 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:11,320 Speaker 1: the age, and women were kind of made to be 158 00:08:11,480 --> 00:08:15,160 Speaker 1: very intelligent and sexual in a way that was through there, 159 00:08:15,280 --> 00:08:18,160 Speaker 1: you know, they were desirable through um, their brains, in 160 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:20,680 Speaker 1: their bodies, you might be able to say. And so 161 00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:22,480 Speaker 1: there was a way in which the films that came 162 00:08:22,520 --> 00:08:26,760 Speaker 1: directly after the code um started to you know, expand 163 00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:29,800 Speaker 1: what women's purview was in terms of their you know, 164 00:08:30,520 --> 00:08:33,400 Speaker 1: intellectual capacities on screen, not that that hasn't always been 165 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:36,400 Speaker 1: I'm not saying that when women were sexualized they were unintelligent, 166 00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:38,400 Speaker 1: but just that there was a different way that it 167 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:42,680 Speaker 1: was the expression was happening. And so in general, my 168 00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:46,080 Speaker 1: feeling is that censorship forces the artists to be more 169 00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:49,640 Speaker 1: subtle and more subversive and get their points across in 170 00:08:49,679 --> 00:08:54,160 Speaker 1: ways that are specifically supposed to be sophisticated. I use 171 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:57,600 Speaker 1: that we're in quotes because that's what the code administrators 172 00:08:57,640 --> 00:08:59,240 Speaker 1: used that term a lot to say. We wanted to 173 00:08:59,280 --> 00:09:02,320 Speaker 1: be sophistic hata material so that only some parts of 174 00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:04,600 Speaker 1: the audience will get it, and they thought that that 175 00:09:04,640 --> 00:09:07,640 Speaker 1: meant adult versus children. They thought that that meant men 176 00:09:07,679 --> 00:09:10,600 Speaker 1: would get it and women wouldn't. But the irony is that, 177 00:09:10,760 --> 00:09:13,760 Speaker 1: you know, women found a lot of pleasure in these movies, 178 00:09:13,800 --> 00:09:16,960 Speaker 1: and obviously women were getting a lot of the subtexts 179 00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:20,120 Speaker 1: as well and finding it very pleasurable to watch movies 180 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:23,560 Speaker 1: in that way, I guess. And I would also say that, 181 00:09:23,880 --> 00:09:27,320 Speaker 1: uh so, one thing that the censorship worked very well 182 00:09:27,360 --> 00:09:29,480 Speaker 1: at is that it did a good job of squelching 183 00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:33,360 Speaker 1: certain voices, right um trying to make more radicalized voices 184 00:09:33,800 --> 00:09:36,560 Speaker 1: not be heard. But in that same tone you could 185 00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:39,680 Speaker 1: get people were starting to um find ways to get 186 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:43,240 Speaker 1: around the way that they were being officially told to 187 00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:45,959 Speaker 1: to voice things. So, for example, women directors, there were 188 00:09:46,160 --> 00:09:48,319 Speaker 1: too many in the classical Hollywood film era. There was 189 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:50,800 Speaker 1: Lois Webber who was one of the most important film 190 00:09:50,800 --> 00:09:53,199 Speaker 1: directors in the Silent era, and they d Dorothy Arsner 191 00:09:53,559 --> 00:09:56,040 Speaker 1: eventually had like Idle Lupino. But there are a lot 192 00:09:56,040 --> 00:09:58,360 Speaker 1: of women who were not able to direct because it 193 00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:01,920 Speaker 1: was just kind of very male playing field. But writing 194 00:10:02,160 --> 00:10:04,480 Speaker 1: was a very different thing, and women writers could get 195 00:10:04,520 --> 00:10:08,760 Speaker 1: their voices in, often on uncredited in ways. And so 196 00:10:08,880 --> 00:10:10,480 Speaker 1: there are a lot of these films that were that 197 00:10:10,520 --> 00:10:13,400 Speaker 1: seemed like they're being completely produced by men. They're directed 198 00:10:13,400 --> 00:10:16,839 Speaker 1: by men, officially written by men, sometime um produced by men, 199 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:19,480 Speaker 1: but women's voices were able to make their way in there. 200 00:10:19,840 --> 00:10:22,400 Speaker 1: And the other way was through the actresses themselves. And 201 00:10:22,520 --> 00:10:24,160 Speaker 1: that's the kind of the project I'm working on right 202 00:10:24,160 --> 00:10:27,680 Speaker 1: now is thinking about how the Hollywood actress herself as 203 00:10:27,760 --> 00:10:31,360 Speaker 1: an icon as an idea changed the way that women 204 00:10:31,480 --> 00:10:34,640 Speaker 1: thought about themselves in um their own lives. So the 205 00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:37,760 Speaker 1: fact that women were so strong and successful and having 206 00:10:37,800 --> 00:10:40,560 Speaker 1: these visible careers in a way that had never really 207 00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:44,040 Speaker 1: happened before. The Hollywood actress. During this time period and 208 00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:47,400 Speaker 1: from the very beginning of Hollywood, the actress reigned supreme. 209 00:10:47,520 --> 00:10:51,080 Speaker 1: So Mary Pickford was the first major Hollywood movie star 210 00:10:51,160 --> 00:10:54,439 Speaker 1: in the nineteen and she really was far more successful 211 00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:57,760 Speaker 1: in visible, and everyone obsessed over her more than people 212 00:10:57,800 --> 00:11:00,480 Speaker 1: like Charlie Chaplin, who we talked more about today. Um, 213 00:11:00,559 --> 00:11:04,600 Speaker 1: the Hollywood itself was always dominated by men, but the 214 00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:07,439 Speaker 1: women were the ones who got far more kind of 215 00:11:07,559 --> 00:11:09,720 Speaker 1: pressed time, and people were more obsessed with them. And 216 00:11:09,720 --> 00:11:12,120 Speaker 1: I think it's because the idea of a woman with 217 00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:16,520 Speaker 1: that much, you know, visible power, and she had, you know, 218 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:19,439 Speaker 1: she was disempowered in certain ways because as a studio actress, 219 00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:21,200 Speaker 1: she had to do whatever her bosses told her to 220 00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:23,840 Speaker 1: some extent. So many women fought against that and became 221 00:11:23,920 --> 00:11:27,560 Speaker 1: independent contract players. But she also was the one that was, 222 00:11:27,640 --> 00:11:30,760 Speaker 1: you know, on all the movie magazine covers and was 223 00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:32,600 Speaker 1: the one that everyone talked about. And so the way 224 00:11:32,679 --> 00:11:36,000 Speaker 1: that um, the film's postcode, how that started to play out, 225 00:11:36,080 --> 00:11:38,559 Speaker 1: is that that was the time period where more women, 226 00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:41,440 Speaker 1: more female actresses. They were starting to realize that the 227 00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:44,360 Speaker 1: movie studios needed them, and so you had actresses like 228 00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:47,679 Speaker 1: Carol Lombard and conscious that and not these people who 229 00:11:47,679 --> 00:11:50,480 Speaker 1: were stepping away from their contracts and saying, I want 230 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:52,679 Speaker 1: to run things the way I wanted. Bettie Davis fighting 231 00:11:52,760 --> 00:11:56,120 Speaker 1: very hard. So the coupling of the content of the 232 00:11:56,160 --> 00:12:00,439 Speaker 1: movies shifting to make female characters stronger, and the dresses 233 00:12:00,559 --> 00:12:03,839 Speaker 1: themselves just starting to play more and more of kind 234 00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:07,880 Speaker 1: of a rebellious role in UM the kind of sexual 235 00:12:07,920 --> 00:12:11,720 Speaker 1: political landscape of America that those couple together meant that 236 00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:13,960 Speaker 1: in the post code years, that was one of some 237 00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:18,040 Speaker 1: most exciting kind of developments for UH. The intersection of 238 00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:22,440 Speaker 1: Hollywood and feminism started to happen. So I'm wondering was 239 00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:25,200 Speaker 1: that something that movie goers recognized at the time. Did 240 00:12:25,280 --> 00:12:28,760 Speaker 1: they see that all these changes were happening behind the scenes, 241 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:31,240 Speaker 1: or was that something that people in the industry were 242 00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:33,640 Speaker 1: kind of only in the know of. Well, it was 243 00:12:33,720 --> 00:12:37,080 Speaker 1: something that the movie industry wanted very much to tout. 244 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:40,040 Speaker 1: They wanted to announce that they were censoring things. They 245 00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:42,240 Speaker 1: wanted to make it clear that they were trying to 246 00:12:42,320 --> 00:12:46,200 Speaker 1: purify these UH films to make them safer for America 247 00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:48,880 Speaker 1: because it actually I should point out another role that 248 00:12:48,920 --> 00:12:51,600 Speaker 1: women had in censorship is that even though it was 249 00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:54,640 Speaker 1: this small cohort of Catholic men who did the writing 250 00:12:54,640 --> 00:12:57,760 Speaker 1: of the production code, it was really the women who 251 00:12:57,840 --> 00:13:00,920 Speaker 1: were parts of like these uh women's clubs. So we're 252 00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:02,760 Speaker 1: called like the Federation of Women's Clubs, and there are 253 00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:06,240 Speaker 1: like thirty million members at the high point of these clubs, 254 00:13:06,280 --> 00:13:08,320 Speaker 1: and they were really some of the people who were 255 00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:13,520 Speaker 1: protesting the obscenity and the depravity of films during the Ties. 256 00:13:14,040 --> 00:13:16,240 Speaker 1: Some people thought that they were doing this for the women, 257 00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:18,200 Speaker 1: that they were trying to protect the women. At the 258 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:21,240 Speaker 1: same time, Um the way, there were articles written. There's 259 00:13:21,280 --> 00:13:24,880 Speaker 1: one from the front page of Variety that's called dirt 260 00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:28,199 Speaker 1: Craze due to women, where it talks about women loved 261 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:31,240 Speaker 1: her nothing shocks them. The bat or the better women 262 00:13:31,280 --> 00:13:33,559 Speaker 1: who make up the bulk of the picture audiences are 263 00:13:33,559 --> 00:13:36,360 Speaker 1: also the majority of readers of the tabloid scandal sheets, 264 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:39,360 Speaker 1: slashing magazines, and erotic books. It is to cater to 265 00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:42,000 Speaker 1: them all the hot stuff of the present day is 266 00:13:42,080 --> 00:13:46,079 Speaker 1: turned out. So that's what the perception was during the 267 00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:48,760 Speaker 1: right as the code is being implemented. So when it 268 00:13:48,920 --> 00:13:52,600 Speaker 1: was implemented, they wanted to say to everyone to make 269 00:13:52,640 --> 00:13:55,080 Speaker 1: all those women's club members who were protesting, they wanted 270 00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:57,680 Speaker 1: to say, we are censoring now and things are going 271 00:13:57,720 --> 00:14:00,440 Speaker 1: to be different. But then they also wanted to make 272 00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:03,520 Speaker 1: all those women who they thought were dirt crazed and 273 00:14:03,559 --> 00:14:06,320 Speaker 1: wanted to watch sexy material, they wanted to make them happy. 274 00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:08,400 Speaker 1: So it was kind of like, I think people were 275 00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:11,800 Speaker 1: very aware that the motion picture industry was trying to 276 00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:13,800 Speaker 1: change in certain ways, but then they'd go to the 277 00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:16,800 Speaker 1: theaters and they would be certainly in the what we 278 00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:19,240 Speaker 1: call the pre code years between nineteen thirty and nineteen 279 00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:22,240 Speaker 1: thirty four, they'd see that things were getting all the 280 00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:24,400 Speaker 1: more racy and exciting to them. And then in the 281 00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:27,000 Speaker 1: postport code years, I think that they were going to 282 00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:30,760 Speaker 1: the theaters and very aware like what is being allowed 283 00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:33,120 Speaker 1: to be shown to me and what isn't and it 284 00:14:33,280 --> 00:14:37,040 Speaker 1: forced them to come I think, very savvy movie goers, 285 00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:40,480 Speaker 1: so that people were always trying to read sexual material 286 00:14:40,520 --> 00:14:42,960 Speaker 1: into things that you know, all the more. This is 287 00:14:43,040 --> 00:14:46,360 Speaker 1: kind of the uh for codey and concept. Michelle Facde, 288 00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:48,920 Speaker 1: this French theorist who says that I don't think of 289 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:51,920 Speaker 1: the Victorian eras this prudish era. This was, in fact 290 00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:55,240 Speaker 1: when people were obsessed with talking about sex because it 291 00:14:55,360 --> 00:14:58,280 Speaker 1: was forbidden. As soon as something is forbidden, it's more exciting, 292 00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:00,000 Speaker 1: and then you want to talk about it all the more. 293 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:02,440 Speaker 1: War And I would say the same thing happened after 294 00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:05,000 Speaker 1: the Code is that these movies came out and people 295 00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:08,600 Speaker 1: were like thinking constantly where is the sexuality? Where is 296 00:15:08,640 --> 00:15:11,400 Speaker 1: the forbidden subtext in these films? And it made them 297 00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:14,240 Speaker 1: more pleasurable in certain ways. So there's something that's just 298 00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:17,560 Speaker 1: exciting about watching something that you think you're getting that 299 00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:19,360 Speaker 1: you shouldn't be getting, you know. And I think that 300 00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:22,560 Speaker 1: that's the kind of reading practices, particularly for women, that 301 00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:28,520 Speaker 1: emerged in the postcode era. Is there any person, any 302 00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:30,840 Speaker 1: woman are filmed that you can point to that really 303 00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:35,680 Speaker 1: illustrates how the Hayes Code era censorship encouraged like innovation 304 00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:39,600 Speaker 1: or expressiveness in cinema. Yeah, I mean, I guess in general, 305 00:15:39,640 --> 00:15:42,200 Speaker 1: I would say the genre of um what we call 306 00:15:42,320 --> 00:15:45,400 Speaker 1: now the screwball comedy, or more broadly, the romantic comedy. 307 00:15:45,480 --> 00:15:48,200 Speaker 1: The reason why I look to this genre in particular 308 00:15:48,280 --> 00:15:50,640 Speaker 1: is because it's the one where, I mean, there's some 309 00:15:50,640 --> 00:15:52,160 Speaker 1: sem of these critics that point out that in a 310 00:15:52,160 --> 00:15:55,520 Speaker 1: lot of these films women are strong and empowered for 311 00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:57,480 Speaker 1: most of the film, and then the very last few 312 00:15:57,480 --> 00:16:00,680 Speaker 1: minutes we have to kind of demobilize in some way 313 00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:03,440 Speaker 1: or make them lose their voice. And I do agree 314 00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:05,800 Speaker 1: with that reading. But I also think that, you know, 315 00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:08,400 Speaker 1: one of the things the production code did is it said, 316 00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:11,160 Speaker 1: what really matters is how the movie turns out, Like 317 00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:14,040 Speaker 1: you can do controversial stuff in the course of it, 318 00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:16,280 Speaker 1: but you have to wind up with a very kind 319 00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:19,960 Speaker 1: of conventional conservative message that the woman remains in the 320 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:22,520 Speaker 1: home and things like that. But I also think that 321 00:16:22,520 --> 00:16:24,360 Speaker 1: everyone knew that at the time, going back to your 322 00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:27,880 Speaker 1: last question, that everybody was aware of the convention that 323 00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:30,800 Speaker 1: the ending had to feel a certain way. But if 324 00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:33,880 Speaker 1: you just you know, focused on the center of the 325 00:16:33,880 --> 00:16:36,240 Speaker 1: film or the majority of the film, then you could 326 00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:39,880 Speaker 1: get these messages that were much more subversive or um 327 00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:42,480 Speaker 1: kind of progressive. And so as a full genre, I 328 00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:44,920 Speaker 1: would say, if you look at the Screwball comedy, these 329 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:48,000 Speaker 1: women characters in it, they are so much more kind 330 00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:50,640 Speaker 1: of agentive and active, and they're the ones who are 331 00:16:50,680 --> 00:16:53,840 Speaker 1: controlling the plot, controlling the atmosphere. They're the ones who 332 00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:56,520 Speaker 1: are smarter than the men usually and they're outwitting them. 333 00:16:56,840 --> 00:16:58,880 Speaker 1: And this was something that was relatively new, and that 334 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:02,400 Speaker 1: the idea that women could be this much in control 335 00:17:02,440 --> 00:17:05,480 Speaker 1: of their own identities and their own sexuality and just 336 00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:08,160 Speaker 1: again going back to sex as a trope that really 337 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:11,400 Speaker 1: gets treated differently in the postcode era in a way 338 00:17:11,440 --> 00:17:14,440 Speaker 1: that a lot of women found to be empowering to them, 339 00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:18,480 Speaker 1: so that uh, you know, actresses like Katherine Shepburn and 340 00:17:19,160 --> 00:17:23,520 Speaker 1: barbara's Sandwick and Karrol Lombard and Iren Done, these were 341 00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:26,919 Speaker 1: actresses where the reason they were so popular with female 342 00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:30,679 Speaker 1: audiences is because women felt like they were able to 343 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:32,960 Speaker 1: achieve the things that they wanted to achieve in their 344 00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:35,280 Speaker 1: own lives. But through these stories that were often very 345 00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:37,680 Speaker 1: you know, kind of their slapstick comedy. There's a lot 346 00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:41,280 Speaker 1: of falling and silliness, but the message, the undergirding messages 347 00:17:41,320 --> 00:17:44,399 Speaker 1: them is that you know, women really can and should 348 00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:48,800 Speaker 1: be in a more prominent place in the world. Do 349 00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:52,879 Speaker 1: you have any favorite scene or particular moment that just 350 00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:55,240 Speaker 1: really stands out to you that you've seen from that 351 00:17:55,359 --> 00:17:58,640 Speaker 1: era of films that you like, go back to when 352 00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:03,520 Speaker 1: you're thinking about censorship been how was the verted um 353 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:08,439 Speaker 1: not to put you on the spot or anything, but 354 00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:14,679 Speaker 1: only if you yeah. I mean one scene that highlights 355 00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:18,000 Speaker 1: the thing I was talking about, where where sexuality feels 356 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:21,120 Speaker 1: more desirable because it's forbidden. I don't know if that's 357 00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:24,240 Speaker 1: quite the it's not the female empowerment thing, but we're 358 00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:26,800 Speaker 1: seeing that that I often think of that embodies what 359 00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:29,840 Speaker 1: a code censorship did is from It Happened One Night, 360 00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:33,000 Speaker 1: which there's Clark Gable and Clade Colbert. Which happened is 361 00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:36,280 Speaker 1: filmed right in at the moment that Joseph Green takes over, 362 00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:39,160 Speaker 1: so the code is now being formalized in a new way. 363 00:18:39,560 --> 00:18:41,359 Speaker 1: And the plot of it is is that they're on 364 00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:43,600 Speaker 1: the road together. They are not married, she's married someone else. 365 00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:45,600 Speaker 1: She's both with someone and he's the reporter who's going 366 00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:47,120 Speaker 1: to get a story about it. But of course they're 367 00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:49,680 Speaker 1: falling in love and there's a lot of witty banter 368 00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:52,399 Speaker 1: between them. But um, there's a scene where they're both 369 00:18:52,440 --> 00:18:54,320 Speaker 1: staying in a hotel room together and there will be 370 00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:57,320 Speaker 1: very shocking for the time period. And so the way 371 00:18:57,320 --> 00:18:59,639 Speaker 1: that he makes this okay. Is that he hangs a 372 00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:01,720 Speaker 1: blank kids in the middle on a rope in the 373 00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:03,960 Speaker 1: middle of their room, and he says, all right, now 374 00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:06,480 Speaker 1: I can't see anything, so you're fine, and those two 375 00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:09,120 Speaker 1: starts like getting undressed, and then she just starts throwing 376 00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:11,359 Speaker 1: you know, her stockings and her clothes over at the 377 00:19:11,359 --> 00:19:13,160 Speaker 1: top of it to hang it as she's gonna put 378 00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:16,680 Speaker 1: on her pajamas, and he gets so he's like, well, now, 379 00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:18,639 Speaker 1: all I'm doing, of course, is imagining you on the 380 00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:21,199 Speaker 1: other side naked. And so the idea is that you 381 00:19:21,320 --> 00:19:23,480 Speaker 1: put up a wall, you put up a barrier, you 382 00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:25,760 Speaker 1: try to hide what's on the other side, and it 383 00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:27,679 Speaker 1: makes people think about it all the more but be 384 00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:30,919 Speaker 1: able to use their own imaginations in a way that is, 385 00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:34,159 Speaker 1: you know, very stimulating and also requires more of the 386 00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:36,360 Speaker 1: viewer and it but it puts more of the sexuality 387 00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:38,720 Speaker 1: into your mind in ways that I mean, you could 388 00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:41,040 Speaker 1: say that that makes you more kind of pervy that 389 00:19:41,080 --> 00:19:43,040 Speaker 1: you're trying to think about what's over there, but also 390 00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:45,840 Speaker 1: makes it so that the sex is more about the 391 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:48,280 Speaker 1: viewer instead of what's on the screen. And I think 392 00:19:48,280 --> 00:19:50,880 Speaker 1: for women in particularly that could feel like a way 393 00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:53,240 Speaker 1: that they could in this time when it was considered 394 00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:57,240 Speaker 1: so taboo for them to have overt sexual desires and opinions, 395 00:19:57,280 --> 00:19:59,199 Speaker 1: they could watch these movies and let it kind of 396 00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:01,640 Speaker 1: play out in their and imaginative basis in a way 397 00:20:02,119 --> 00:20:06,040 Speaker 1: that I felt really good to them. That is really smart. 398 00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:07,840 Speaker 1: I wouldn't have thought of that scene like that. It's 399 00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:10,440 Speaker 1: like they were doing things that were meta before meta 400 00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:14,240 Speaker 1: was the huge thing to do in film. But it's 401 00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:16,320 Speaker 1: so cool to think of it this way because now 402 00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:18,040 Speaker 1: I'm going to go back and look at movies in 403 00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:20,280 Speaker 1: such a different light, because I guess I always think 404 00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:22,879 Speaker 1: of censorship as this kind of thing to rally around, 405 00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:25,280 Speaker 1: as a negative thing, as a bad thing, like there's 406 00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:28,040 Speaker 1: a shadowy cabal of like overlords who are telling you 407 00:20:28,359 --> 00:20:29,959 Speaker 1: what you can and what you can put in this, 408 00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:32,159 Speaker 1: and it's bad for me as an artist or for 409 00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:35,040 Speaker 1: that person as an artist. And yeah, this just really 410 00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:37,879 Speaker 1: puts things into a different light. So those are all 411 00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:40,240 Speaker 1: the questions that I have. But if you have anything 412 00:20:40,320 --> 00:20:43,160 Speaker 1: that you want to add, bill free to I mean, yeah, 413 00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:44,880 Speaker 1: I know that what you were just saying is exactly 414 00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:46,760 Speaker 1: what I'm trying to get at. Is the idea that 415 00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:50,440 Speaker 1: I mean both the sensors. Often we're not trying as 416 00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:52,640 Speaker 1: hard as we thought to block and I think they 417 00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:55,919 Speaker 1: just wanted to make sure that it passed certain peoples 418 00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:58,760 Speaker 1: up so they were okay with movies talking to people 419 00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:01,719 Speaker 1: in different ways. But also the fact that artists are 420 00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:05,280 Speaker 1: smart and artists censorship doesn't just welch people. I mean, 421 00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:07,600 Speaker 1: of course, in some ways censorship can when it's you know, 422 00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:11,040 Speaker 1: legalized and people are you know, other voices are silence 423 00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:13,119 Speaker 1: in very real ways. But in places where we have 424 00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:17,280 Speaker 1: you know, foundational levels of freedom of speech, sometimes censorship 425 00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:22,040 Speaker 1: instead work to motivate the artists and inspire the artists 426 00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:25,560 Speaker 1: in ways that I think we don't think it's tough about. Yeah, 427 00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:29,040 Speaker 1: all right, thank you so much for talking about this today. 428 00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:31,000 Speaker 1: It's been a real pressure. All right. It's fun to 429 00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:37,880 Speaker 1: talk to you. Bye. Thank you so much for listening 430 00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:40,760 Speaker 1: to this episode today. I hope you enjoyed it, and 431 00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:42,920 Speaker 1: I hope you enjoyed all of the interviews that we've 432 00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:45,959 Speaker 1: done for Women's History Month. You can let us know 433 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:48,760 Speaker 1: how you felt about them at T D i h 434 00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:54,000 Speaker 1: C Podcast on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram. We'll see you 435 00:21:54,119 --> 00:22:04,440 Speaker 1: here in the same place tomorrow. Yeah, For more podcasts 436 00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:07,400 Speaker 1: from I heart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, 437 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:09,119 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.