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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome stuff. I

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Speaker 1: never told you a prediction of iHeartRadio, and welcome to

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Speaker 1: the pin Ultimate the pin ultimate episode of our Last

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Speaker 1: of Us Season two reaction mini series. Again, they are

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Speaker 1: not a sponsor. Shame, it's a real shame. But here

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Speaker 1: we are doing any Way out of love because the

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Speaker 1: second Game is my favorite game of all time. They

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Speaker 1: are splitting up. I read another article recently that said

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Speaker 1: into three seasons, so really, yeah, this is part one.

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Speaker 1: They said the next season is going to be longer

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Speaker 1: because I believe the exact quote was the narrative bomb

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Speaker 1: of Joel dying was too hard to get away from.

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Speaker 1: So this season is like that. Okay, but they said

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Speaker 1: that we have more room to explore in the next

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Speaker 1: season and potentially the next But anyway, spoilers. Hopefully if

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Speaker 1: you clicked on this, because I just gave you the

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Speaker 1: biggest one, you've already caught up. You're already caught up.

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Speaker 1: But we're going to spoil the most recent episode and

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Speaker 1: previous episodes of the second season of the Last of

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Speaker 1: Us show, the first season, the game, first game, parts

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Speaker 1: of the second game. But I'm trying to avoid like

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Speaker 1: big game parts. So I have to tell you, I

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Speaker 1: don't even know what they're going to do half the

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Speaker 1: time anymore, So it could I don't know who knows, Yes, yes,

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Speaker 1: this There's all only one more episode left in this season,

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Speaker 1: so during this time we are not doing our Sex

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Speaker 1: and the City, Watch React podcast or fiction ones to

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Speaker 1: give Christina some more breathing room. But we will come

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Speaker 1: back to those in June. And yeah, normally Smith and

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Speaker 1: I watched these together, we didn't get to do it

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Speaker 1: this one, which is the same because you would have

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Speaker 1: laughed at how hard I cried.

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Speaker 2: I should have been there just to take pictures.

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Speaker 1: It was bad, it was bad news. But this does

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Speaker 1: bring me to a funny story that I have. I

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Speaker 1: finally got to meet up with my mom for Mother's Day.

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Speaker 1: I know, I'm so late, but we finally got to

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Speaker 1: meet up, and I told her I was honest, and

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Speaker 1: I said, one of the reasons I've been so busy

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Speaker 1: is for doing these last of Us watch parties and

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Speaker 1: it's just like a whole day, and so I don't

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Speaker 1: have time on Sundays to do it. Anyway. She I

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Speaker 1: told her this, and we were at a restaurant and

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Speaker 1: she like rested her head back on the booth with

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Speaker 1: a groan, and then put her hands in front of

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Speaker 1: her on the table and rested her forehead on her

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Speaker 1: hands and said, how could they kill him? He's so attractive?

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Speaker 2: I mean many people would agree with her and have

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Speaker 2: agreed with her.

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Speaker 1: I was not expecting this at all. A shocking take from.

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Speaker 2: My mom, that's amazing.

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Speaker 1: I did not know she was watching it, and she

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Speaker 1: kind of she watched the last season and she loved it,

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Speaker 1: and when we got to the end, she said, oh,

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Speaker 1: it's kind of a happy ending. Joel and Ellie get

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Speaker 1: to live happily ever after together. And I stayed very silent. Betrayal.

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Speaker 1: I was like, well, she said, how could you not

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Speaker 1: tell me they.

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Speaker 3: Were going to do this betrayal?

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Speaker 1: But it was so funny. And then I told her,

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Speaker 1: I said, well, you know, Pedro Pascal is coming back,

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Speaker 1: because she hadn't caught up on the most recent episode,

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Speaker 1: and she sagged in relief and was like, oh really,

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Speaker 1: And then I said, but really only for that, right,

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Speaker 1: you know.

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Speaker 2: Not coming back for like more than like a couple

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Speaker 2: of flashbacks, especially like as we keep going, I bet

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Speaker 2: that'd bring him at least once a season.

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Speaker 1: I think they'll bring him in. If we were sticking

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Speaker 1: to the game, this would be it. We wouldn't, right,

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Speaker 1: I bet they'll bring him him from one more at

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Speaker 1: least one more flashback, but I don't think much more

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Speaker 1: than that. But she it was so funny. She was

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Speaker 1: talking to me all about it and all her thoughts.

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Speaker 1: It was a wonderful time. But I just love her.

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Speaker 1: First reaction was it.

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Speaker 2: Was to talk to you about ready to talk about it,

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Speaker 2: and then she had to give herselves a moment and

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Speaker 2: then that was the statement, I love it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And there were people in the restaurant. There were

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Speaker 1: other people like looking beautiful at it. It was great.

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Speaker 2: They were like, what's happening? People would understand, they would understand,

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Speaker 2: they would understand.

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Speaker 1: But she was very She had a moment of intense

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Speaker 1: reaction and then anger, and then we just talked about it.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, well that's where we are with this episode. Actually,

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Speaker 1: we are kind of at the eulogy. So the way

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Speaker 1: these work is Samantha gives the recap and then I

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Speaker 1: go through my thoughts. So Samantha, would you like to

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Speaker 1: give the recap?

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Speaker 2: Here we go, so we have antying opening I guess

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Speaker 2: with two children, like it took me a minute to

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Speaker 2: figure out what was going on, by the way, I

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Speaker 2: was like what, And they're like, the youngest one is

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Speaker 2: obviously brothers saying he's gonna, you know, use the belt,

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Speaker 2: He's gonna hit me all these things, and the older

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Speaker 2: ones like, no, he won't touch you, I will get hit.

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Speaker 2: So he sends him off to his room. And it

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Speaker 2: turns out it is younger Joel and Tommy, and obviously

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Speaker 2: the father is abusive. The father comes in, he's a sheriff.

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Speaker 2: You're like, what the hell or a police officer, and

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Speaker 2: I'm like, oh, bad news. And they had this hole

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Speaker 2: back and forth in which essentially Joel's challenging him. It's like,

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Speaker 2: you're not touching him. I'll take it he didn't do

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Speaker 2: anything wrong, tries to lie. The father does something unexpected

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Speaker 2: and goes like, grabs a drink, brings one for him,

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Speaker 2: and he sits down and then tells the story about

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Speaker 2: how he got punched in the face by his father,

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Speaker 2: couldn't eat for weeks and all these things, and you're like,

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Speaker 2: what the hell, And then you know a Joel responds

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Speaker 2: with and how could you do that to us if

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Speaker 2: you know how this feels. And he's like, I've never

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Speaker 2: hit y'all like that, I've never been this bad, and

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Speaker 2: I've done better than my father. And then he goes

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Speaker 2: on to say, when you have your own, my hope

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Speaker 2: is that you'll do better than me. Cut two, we

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Speaker 2: have birthday scene to Ellie. Very cute come in. He's

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Speaker 2: talking to Seth at one point and you see them

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Speaker 2: trading off because he gets legos and then he's like,

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Speaker 2: I want this by tomorrow and they're like what. I'm

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Speaker 2: sitting there like what are we getting? Amo he says

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Speaker 2: vanilla or chocolate. Vanilla is faster. He's like, fine and vanilla.

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Speaker 2: And then he also gets like a bone marrow piece

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Speaker 2: and he's working on this guitar beautifully done, and gets

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Speaker 2: a painting of or drawing which is very famous drawing

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Speaker 2: into this game and have this moment and it turns

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Speaker 2: out it is Ellie's fifteenth birthday. He gets her a

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Speaker 2: kate that's his Happy Birthday Eli, which is a whole thing,

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Speaker 2: but it gets so good. Ellie eats it with her

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Speaker 2: hands and talks about how good it is. He gives

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Speaker 2: her a present, which is the guitar with her drawing

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Speaker 2: on it, which is a moth, and they have a

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Speaker 2: little bit of a moment. It's very sweet moment. And

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Speaker 2: then we have this, oh yeah, before she had burned

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Speaker 2: her arms. This is where she's burned her arms, right,

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Speaker 2: and Tommy brings it in. She's on like painkillers and suys.

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Speaker 2: I just wanted to wear short sleeves. That's a whole

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Speaker 2: whole damn thing. And then a year later, for the

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Speaker 2: sixteenth birthday, this is where I got confused. We have

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Speaker 2: a moment and they're going exploring, and then we see

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Speaker 2: this whole cute view about how they need to go

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Speaker 2: exploring more often, all these things, and then he brings

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Speaker 2: her to the area after a fun conversation about birds

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Speaker 2: and bees and Jesse is mentioned here. And then as

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Speaker 2: they go up he has found the museum with dinosaurs

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Speaker 2: and astronauts, and they have this amazing scene, very heartfelt moment.

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Speaker 2: You love it. They love each other, having your great time.

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Speaker 2: You have the moment where she hears the takeoff in

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Speaker 2: the astronauts and gets her own helmet and beautiful and

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Speaker 2: I'm sure you're already crying by this point, right, And

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Speaker 2: it wasn't good, Okay, and moving on. We go on

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Speaker 2: to the seventeenth birthday, where it becomes a little more

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Speaker 2: awkward and he hears noises. He's got okay. He hears

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Speaker 2: noises in her bedroom, busts through and turns out.

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Speaker 3: He's with.

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Speaker 2: A girl and they've been making out. And then also

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Speaker 2: baby a tattoo was involved, and he in drugs and

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Speaker 2: he's like, you're doing all of this all at once? Why?

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Speaker 2: And then they have this like blowout, and then then

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Speaker 2: he goes away, and he goes and we see Gail

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Speaker 2: and he has a conversation about, you know, a couple

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Speaker 2: of things, including about her tattoo, which is a moth,

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Speaker 2: and he asks her what it is it's about, and

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Speaker 2: they come to realize it's about death when he, you know,

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Speaker 2: the father moment of like pretending I'm trying to figure

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Speaker 2: it out, and he thought it was a butterfly about

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Speaker 2: new life and all these things. But it is a

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Speaker 2: father daughter exchange. But it is getting more and more

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Speaker 2: awkward as the birthdays come as she is growing. We

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Speaker 2: jump ahead two years to nineteen and his birthday gets

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Speaker 2: to her after By the way, she's moved into the

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Speaker 2: garage at this point and she's practicing a whole scene

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Speaker 2: about trying to figure out what happened.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, at the hospital, right, she's written questions. She wants

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Speaker 1: to ask him about what happens.

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Speaker 2: But she doesn't quite get there yet, and we jumped

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Speaker 2: two years later and he takes her training train for

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Speaker 2: hunting and all of that stuff, and they have this

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Speaker 2: woman he kind of like, you know, he's giving her

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Speaker 2: like I would like to spend more time. This would

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Speaker 2: be nice if we could do these together. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 2: But at that point we get an emergency call about

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Speaker 2: something happening and he tries to go and tells her

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Speaker 2: to go back to Jackson and she's like, hell, no,

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Speaker 2: I'm not your daughter, I'm your partner. And he's like

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Speaker 2: all right, fine, and they go together and they come

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Speaker 2: uposus one Horde scene of a horse dragging a person

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Speaker 2: obviously who had died, had been eaten or gotten bitten,

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Speaker 2: one of those two things, And then come up and

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Speaker 2: we meet Eugene, the infamous Eugene, who is like, I'm okay,

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Speaker 2: but yeah I got bit. And at this point he's

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Speaker 2: like look, look, look, and Joel's ready, let's shoot him.

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Speaker 2: Immediately he's like, we're sorry, he's like, no, no, no,

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Speaker 2: I need to see Gil, who is his wife. He's like,

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Speaker 2: I need to see Gil. I need to talk to her.

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Speaker 2: I need to tell her something. I have to tell

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Speaker 2: her something. And Joel's like, you know I can't do that.

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Speaker 2: You're about to turn He's like no really, And then Ellie,

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Speaker 2: with her empathy, was like, wait, do these tests. Let's

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Speaker 2: see how long you got figures out he's got time.

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Speaker 2: She's like, I can go get the horse. You can

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Speaker 2: come my way and we can get him there before

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Speaker 2: he passes away and he can talk to he can

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Speaker 2: or before he becomes a zombie or needs to be shot,

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Speaker 2: and you can talk to he can talk to Gil.

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Speaker 2: And she's like, promise me. He's like I promise, and

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Speaker 2: like all these things. So she goes off to do

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Speaker 2: this and they have this moment and he, Eugene and

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Speaker 2: Joel are walking. Joel leads him to the water and

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Speaker 2: Eugene knows for what's about to happen. He's like, man,

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Speaker 2: I need to do this. He's like I'm sorry, I

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Speaker 2: can't let you. I have to protect my family. And

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Speaker 2: then he's like, what do you want to tell Gil?

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Speaker 2: And he's like, I don't want to tell Gil and

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Speaker 2: I need her to tell me that I'm okay. I

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Speaker 2: need her to talk me through this. I need her.

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Speaker 2: It was a very sweet moment, and as we like

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Speaker 2: pan away, we come back to Ellie coming back with

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Speaker 2: a horse and he is he has shot Eugene and

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Speaker 2: he lies and says, there was no way we could

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Speaker 2: do anything about this. You know, we had to do

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Speaker 2: this right. He was all these things, and then he's like,

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Speaker 2: we will tell Gil what she needs to hear, and

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Speaker 2: that's how it goes. And then they go back and

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Speaker 2: he tries to tell her all these things about how

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Speaker 2: he loved her and he was brave he shot himself,

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Speaker 2: and Ellie was not having it, and then just says

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Speaker 2: everything that he did it was a lie. And she

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Speaker 2: ends up with him saying, you swore. I've seen that

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Speaker 2: look and I know you swore, And that's kind of

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Speaker 2: how that ends. Gail gets a good slap in the

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Speaker 2: face of Joel, kind of deserved, honestly, and we have

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Speaker 2: a tried like we see the moment of what happened,

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Speaker 2: and she talking to him. Essentially at this point they

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Speaker 2: haven't talked about anything else, and he knows that he

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Speaker 2: is lost because he knows that she knows he's lying.

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Speaker 2: He's been lying all this time. They have another time

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Speaker 2: jump to that scene where she just faces him on

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Speaker 2: after the New Year's Eve incident, that all that shows

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Speaker 2: and happens, and how he is Uncle Grumpy. All the

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Speaker 2: things went down at that point, and you see him

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Speaker 2: on the porch with his coffee with his al mug,

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Speaker 2: which is also infamous in this world. And she walks up,

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Speaker 2: stands at him and looks like she goes to her

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Speaker 2: garage area, but doesn't turns around and comes back on

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Speaker 2: the porch and they have a heart to heart and

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Speaker 2: she asks them all the questions and he's like, She's like,

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Speaker 2: this is your last chance. You have to tell me

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Speaker 2: the truth, and which he does tell her, Yes he

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Speaker 2: did kill them, Yes they could have had a cure. Yes,

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Speaker 2: he selfishly made this decision. And he tells essentially, but

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Speaker 2: this is the price I will pay for what he

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Speaker 2: has done. And then he also says I would not

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Speaker 2: I would choose this again. I would choose it all

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Speaker 2: over again to save you. She says selfish, and the

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Speaker 2: end says the quote, I don't think I can ever

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Speaker 2: forgive you for this but I would like to try

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Speaker 2: cut scene and we see Ellie coming back to the theater.

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Speaker 1: And rain present day. Yep, yeah, that's what That's what

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Speaker 1: destroys me, that scene, the porch scene. I cry the

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Speaker 1: most of that scene. It wrecks me in the show,

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Speaker 1: it wrects me in the game.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So this episode is called The Price, and if you

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Speaker 1: notice in the credits, it's two figures again because it's

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Speaker 1: Joel and Ellie again. But this is, as I said,

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Speaker 1: the eulogy of Joel, this is where we're saying, like,

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Speaker 1: don't get too excited, folks, goodbye, goodbye, my friend. But

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Speaker 1: it is also all about cycles of It's both cycles

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Speaker 1: of progress but also cycles of just you're stuck in

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Speaker 1: the same thing. So the flashback that opens it with

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Speaker 1: young Joel and Tommy is not in the game. It's

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Speaker 1: alluded to very vaguely that their childhood was abusive, but

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Speaker 1: it's never made clear. It's never made specific. Tommy has

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Speaker 1: a quote where he says something like Joel's protection wasn't

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Speaker 1: worth it, and I always assumed that that meant what

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Speaker 1: they did to survive during the apocalypse, but it's possible

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Speaker 1: he was talking about further than that, and there's a

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Speaker 1: couple of other offhanded things where you could interpret it

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Speaker 1: in that way. But you kind of see him already

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Speaker 1: having this, you know, kind of understandable, honestly tendency to

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Speaker 1: lie to protect someone, to resort to violence to protect someone,

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Speaker 1: because he had started beating up the kids that were

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Speaker 1: selling drugs to Tommy. But I also think it's interesting

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Speaker 1: that his dad, who is a cop, says immediately like,

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Speaker 1: do you think I wouldn't find out about this? Like

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Speaker 1: it's a lie that had a lot of room to

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Speaker 1: fall apart. It was easy to verify that that was

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Speaker 1: not what happened, but he was willing to do it,

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Speaker 1: and he was willing to take the pain for it.

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Speaker 1: But also this whole idea of you know, I hope

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Speaker 1: you do better than me. And you do see instances

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Speaker 1: of Joel. A lot of people have written essays about

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Speaker 1: this that I've read that you see a lot of

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Speaker 1: instances of him when he's in Jackson where he's really

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Speaker 1: trying to make life instead of death, Like he's instead

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Speaker 1: of like doing violent things. He's carving all these like

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Speaker 1: owls statues, and he's making a guitar and he's brewing alcohol,

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Speaker 1: like he's a very like he's making things. So he

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Speaker 1: did have progress in that way, and we'll talk a

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Speaker 1: bit more about some of the other progress yet. But

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Speaker 1: you also see the watch, the infamous watch on his

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Speaker 1: dad's wrists, so that is being passed down. I think

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Speaker 1: it's interesting again that Ellie did not take the watch.

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Speaker 1: She took the gun, So it's sort of what are

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Speaker 1: you picking up from what's being passed down? And we

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Speaker 1: do see like a couple instances of characters with their children,

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Speaker 1: like Seth, who we met first as a homophobic character,

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Speaker 1: is talking about his grandkids and how they would love

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Speaker 1: the legos that Joel found and how he was a cop,

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Speaker 1: which is Joel visually was like oh yeah, oh no,

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Speaker 1: but like you see, he cares about his kids. And

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Speaker 1: then you see Tommy with his kid. And now you

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Speaker 1: have Joel who has really assumed the role of Ellie's father,

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Speaker 1: even though she's kind of shafing at it because like

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Speaker 1: at first it was all about protection and now he's

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Speaker 1: doing the like, oh you got a tattoo, very very

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Speaker 1: paternal kind of action. But the episode is told mostly

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Speaker 1: through at Ellie's birthdays. It's a series of flashbacks told

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Speaker 1: mostly through her birthdays, and it does start with her fifteenth,

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Speaker 1: and that's when we see I just kind of wanted

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Speaker 1: to mention I thought it was funny that Seth is

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Speaker 1: making Ellie's cake when he's homophobic, and there's kind of

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Speaker 1: that whole you know, I won't make cake for gay people,

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Speaker 1: so kind of made me laugh in the sad way.

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Speaker 1: But yes, yeah, but he's the one that makes the cake.

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Speaker 1: And that's when we do get the the relevation that

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Speaker 1: she has burned her arm purposefully because she wanted to

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Speaker 1: wear short sleeves, and she she says in there, it's

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Speaker 1: they're giving us a lot of hints about how reckless

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Speaker 1: she is, or like how she makes impulsive decisions, because

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Speaker 1: she says like I just saw it and then I

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Speaker 1: just did it, So we're seeing more of that. But

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Speaker 1: then we do have a very sweet scene where she

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Speaker 1: eats the cake with her hands, which I think is

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Speaker 1: supposed to be like she grew up in the Apocalypse

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Speaker 1: and so whatever. But then Joel plays the song the

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Speaker 1: whole song for her, the Pearl Jam song Future Days,

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Speaker 1: which she couldn't play in a previous episode because she's

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Speaker 1: still stuck in this trauma, but he plays that for

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Speaker 1: her and with the guitar that he made, which, by

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Speaker 1: the way, the bone that you mentioned is for the

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Speaker 1: bone bridge through guitar, So he made this guitar and

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Speaker 1: he has kind of a cute stumbley speech about how

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Speaker 1: much work he put into it, and she's just like, oh, God,

347
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Speaker 1: sure plays something for me. So they have this really

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Speaker 1: nice moment and then it jumps to the next birthday

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Speaker 1: and this is the one. This scene. Oh everyone knows.

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Speaker 1: Everyone knows it. Even the museum that this scene is

351
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Speaker 1: based on, was like, I can't believe, how amazing, how

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Speaker 1: did you do this? But anyway, he takes Ellie. Joel

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Speaker 1: takes Ellie to a museum that he found and there

354
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Speaker 1: is a big t Rex statue out front that Ellie

355
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Speaker 1: climbs to the top of, which, by the way, is

356
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Speaker 1: a missible thing. I missed it the first time I

357
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Speaker 1: played it, but you can climb to the top. They

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Speaker 1: did cut out I think they shot it, but they

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Speaker 1: cut out the scene where they go and look at

360
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Speaker 1: all the other dinosaurs. But that's where the Indiana Jones

361
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Speaker 1: hat easter egg that we mentioned comes from, because she

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Speaker 1: picks up a hat makes Joel wear them, and dinosaurs

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Speaker 1: wear them and all this stuff. But then they get

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Speaker 1: to the space exhibit, which is as we know, Ellie

365
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Speaker 1: loves space, and it is really sweet because it shows

366
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Speaker 1: he knows the things she loves the most. He knows

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Speaker 1: she has this interest in dinosaurs and this interest in space.

368
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Speaker 1: In the game, he started reading the comics she loved

369
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Speaker 1: Savage Starlight, which you can see posters of in her room.

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Speaker 1: But he says to her, would you like to go

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Speaker 1: to space? And then shows her this capsule that's in

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Speaker 1: the museum and says, you can't go to space without

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Speaker 1: a helmet. The helmet she chooses is from It's a

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Speaker 1: Gemini helmet, which is one of the helmets that was

375
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Speaker 1: used during the Apollo explosion that she talked about a

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Speaker 1: couple episodes ago. But so that's not the greatest symbolism.

377
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Speaker 1: But also Jemini means duality, and that's what a lot

378
00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:07,280
Speaker 1: of this season is about Ellie versus Abby. All of

379
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Speaker 1: these things. I hats off to everyone who's written about this.

380
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Speaker 1: I love it. And then he gives Ellie. He tells

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Speaker 1: her to close her eyes and gives her a tape,

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Speaker 1: a cassette tape and she puts the earbuds in, puts

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Speaker 1: in the tape and it is the sound of a launch,

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Speaker 1: a space launch, and she closes her eyes and she

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Speaker 1: has this really beautiful moment where she's in her imagination

386
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Speaker 1: and she's thinking about what it would look like to

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Speaker 1: go to space, which I think is very It's both

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Speaker 1: very like one of the last hang ons of her

389
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Speaker 1: childhood and being so interested in that, but I think

390
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Speaker 1: it's also very escapist because if you lived in that world,

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Speaker 1: I would see being like, you know what, if I

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Speaker 1: can go it out her space? Right, that sounds great,

393
00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:13,800
Speaker 1: but alas, you must come back down. Also, Samantha gave

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Speaker 1: me that tape for one of my birthdays and I

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Speaker 1: loved it.

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Speaker 3: Did you listen to it?

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Speaker 1: Yeah?

398
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Speaker 2: I didn't know if I did or not.

399
00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:29,440
Speaker 1: Yeah. Uh So they had this beautiful moment and then

400
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Speaker 1: Joel asked, did I do okay? And she says, are

401
00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:35,840
Speaker 1: you kidding me? That was like the best thing ever.

402
00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:38,600
Speaker 1: And she's like kind of teared up, and he's kind

403
00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:43,840
Speaker 1: of teared up, which I think is really sweet because

404
00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:48,920
Speaker 1: he's obviously really happy that she's happy. And it's interesting

405
00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:52,639
Speaker 1: to me because in the the actors were told not

406
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Speaker 1: to play the games. I did, right, I believe Bella did.

407
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Speaker 3: Yeah.

408
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Speaker 1: I think young Mazino has, like he had already when

409
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Speaker 1: he auditioned, so some of them have, but I know

410
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Speaker 1: Pedro Pascal has not. He tried to, and then I

411
00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:13,440
Speaker 1: think he got too scared.

412
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Speaker 2: He was too bad at it, too bad at it.

413
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Speaker 1: Yeah. But anyway, it's interesting because in his kind of

414
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Speaker 1: retelling of how why Joel was reacting this way, it

415
00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:29,919
Speaker 1: was that he was so happy. He made her happy,

416
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Speaker 1: and that's the best thing you can do for someone.

417
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Speaker 1: But I've always kind of interpreted it as he needed

418
00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:43,760
Speaker 1: the affirmation, like the he needed somebody to tell him, oh,

419
00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:49,040
Speaker 1: I'm doing okay. Yeah, yes, I am still doing the

420
00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:52,960
Speaker 1: right thing here in this story. And we'll talk about

421
00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:54,399
Speaker 1: that a little bit more later. I do think he

422
00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:56,919
Speaker 1: was happy for her. I think there was space for both,

423
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Speaker 1: but that sort of like always needing because he has

424
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Speaker 1: a bunch of other moments like that in this episode

425
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Speaker 1: where he's like, we should hang out more. This is

426
00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:08,920
Speaker 1: so fun, we should like. He just has a lot

427
00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:14,560
Speaker 1: of stuff like that, and then also, yeah, just a

428
00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:17,520
Speaker 1: hammer home. If you haven't heard the song Future Days,

429
00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:21,600
Speaker 1: look up the lyrics and you'll be the future days

430
00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:28,119
Speaker 1: never come out of the way. He just said that.

431
00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:29,760
Speaker 2: Amazing.

432
00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:37,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, but that's like that scene is one of

433
00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:40,600
Speaker 1: the most beautiful sections of the game. It does include

434
00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:45,960
Speaker 1: another part they cut out where they go to another museum. Oh,

435
00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:47,840
Speaker 1: I am sad they cut that out now that I

436
00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:51,399
Speaker 1: think about it, because they go into the museum but

437
00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:54,640
Speaker 1: Joel can't get in. Ellie's small enough to get in,

438
00:26:55,800 --> 00:27:00,359
Speaker 1: and she's trying to find another way to exit, and

439
00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:06,920
Speaker 1: this bore wild boar keeps like attacking her, and it's

440
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:10,480
Speaker 1: really scary because it's dark and you just hear this sound,

441
00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:14,040
Speaker 1: and there's all these scary messages on the wall, like

442
00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:18,240
Speaker 1: they let the children starve and all this stuff, and

443
00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:22,680
Speaker 1: you come out at one point from crawling and there's

444
00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:27,800
Speaker 1: just this all of these a statue of wolves surrounding

445
00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:32,240
Speaker 1: a moose and it's so symbolic and so creepy. And

446
00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:39,520
Speaker 1: then Ellie finds this the firefly emblem, and underneath it

447
00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:43,679
Speaker 1: said it was hope was all the lie. And then

448
00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:46,240
Speaker 1: Joel finds his way in, and it's just real awkward

449
00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:50,879
Speaker 1: because she's like, should I bring this up? And he's like,

450
00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:53,639
Speaker 1: please don't bring it up. But they kind of have

451
00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:56,240
Speaker 1: that moment in the show when she sees the fireflies

452
00:27:56,280 --> 00:28:01,400
Speaker 1: around the tree and it's like something is not right.

453
00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:05,919
Speaker 1: But yes, that scene is a beautiful scene, but it

454
00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:08,760
Speaker 1: does happen right after the whole Nora thing, where after

455
00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:15,320
Speaker 1: Ellie tortures Nora. It's that scene. So some people like

456
00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:18,240
Speaker 1: really hated that pacing. I liked it because it was like,

457
00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:32,720
Speaker 1: oh my god, I need a moment. Then we skip

458
00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:36,800
Speaker 1: to the next birthday, which is full of the teenage

459
00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:39,440
Speaker 1: stuff that you mentioned, and we get the return of

460
00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:44,760
Speaker 1: cat Kat, Ellie's X that was in the first episode,

461
00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:47,840
Speaker 1: and I was so excited because she's like a mention

462
00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:52,600
Speaker 1: in the game. She's in Ellie's journal, but you could

463
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:56,000
Speaker 1: miss it completely if you don't read her journal. So

464
00:28:56,040 --> 00:28:59,480
Speaker 1: it's kind of fun to see her. But as I said,

465
00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:02,840
Speaker 1: she is the one that gave Ellie her tat too,

466
00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:04,480
Speaker 1: and I love how she was like, it will look

467
00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:07,280
Speaker 1: better once I fill it in, as if that was

468
00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:13,160
Speaker 1: why Joel was mad. But yeah, So basically, Joel came

469
00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:17,840
Speaker 1: home early to celebrate Ellie's birthday with chocolate cake this

470
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:19,840
Speaker 1: time the fancy stuff.

471
00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:24,160
Speaker 2: The fancy one, and.

472
00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:28,240
Speaker 1: There was Kat and Ellie seemingly having an intimate physical moment,

473
00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:36,440
Speaker 1: and Ellie has gotten the tattoo, is smoking pots and

474
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:40,440
Speaker 1: he's just outraged and says, like all the teenage stuff

475
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:48,240
Speaker 1: at once. Then it is interesting because of how the

476
00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:54,239
Speaker 1: show started, with how his dad reacted to Tommy getting the

477
00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:58,520
Speaker 1: weed and that whole thing, and how he reacts, and

478
00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:03,440
Speaker 1: he is he does feel like a very like conservative

479
00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:06,960
Speaker 1: parent here. I mean, I get it. I'm not a parent,

480
00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:10,080
Speaker 1: but I understand if you come home and all this

481
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:15,880
Speaker 1: stuff that's happening, right, But they have this kind of

482
00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:22,760
Speaker 1: fight about it. He says she's experimenting with girls, which,

483
00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:24,960
Speaker 1: by the way, there was a funny scene in the

484
00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:27,280
Speaker 1: previous birthday where he was like, it's something going on

485
00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:30,240
Speaker 1: between you and Jesse and she was like oh no, no, no,

486
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:32,280
Speaker 1: no no. He was like, oh, I've got a key

487
00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:34,000
Speaker 1: and I for this, and she was like, no, you

488
00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:42,800
Speaker 1: really don't. But she says it wasn't an experiment, and

489
00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:48,760
Speaker 1: he says, I'll come back when you're more yourself. She's oof, oof,

490
00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:51,240
Speaker 1: oof oof, and that's when she tries to move into

491
00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:55,800
Speaker 1: the garage, and this I knew was going to have

492
00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:58,440
Speaker 1: a ton of Easter eggs in it, and it did

493
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:05,280
Speaker 1: because when she's like packing up her stuff. The album

494
00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:08,840
Speaker 1: cover the album you can see is an album that's

495
00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:13,920
Speaker 1: famous from being in Kill Bill. She's very famously pretty

496
00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:19,680
Speaker 1: revenge oriented story. There's a bunch of stuff like that. Also,

497
00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:22,960
Speaker 1: again shout out to the Easter egg videos that somehow

498
00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:27,600
Speaker 1: make these videos within like five hours. But anyway, that

499
00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:31,200
Speaker 1: is one of them. But he does ask about her

500
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:39,440
Speaker 1: tattoo after they have this fight, and he kind of

501
00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:42,160
Speaker 1: she says it's from it's from like a dream, a

502
00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:45,360
Speaker 1: book about dream she read. He kind of surmises it

503
00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:49,080
Speaker 1: means growth and stuff, doesn't really ask her. It's just

504
00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:51,200
Speaker 1: kind of like, oh, like growth and stuff, and she's

505
00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:57,560
Speaker 1: like like change and sure. But the next day he

506
00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:04,520
Speaker 1: finds Gail the town on Arapist and she is like,

507
00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:07,480
Speaker 1: oh no, it means death. And if you think about

508
00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:10,600
Speaker 1: the symbolism of a moth, to me, it would be

509
00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:13,280
Speaker 1: like it's death. It's drawn to light that you can

510
00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:16,960
Speaker 1: never get a lot of people have written about how

511
00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:20,160
Speaker 1: maybe it symbolizes sort of an addiction or something like

512
00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:25,240
Speaker 1: with her addiction to getting revenge. Some people think it's

513
00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:28,960
Speaker 1: the like look to the light, fireflies. Yeah, kind of

514
00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:31,840
Speaker 1: whole thing. But if you look at her sketches, because

515
00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:34,640
Speaker 1: she has a lot of sketches of this moth, which

516
00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:38,160
Speaker 1: he Joel did, I think a pretty good job when

517
00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:43,760
Speaker 1: he made it in her guitar on the bridge, it says,

518
00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:49,360
Speaker 1: on those sketches, you have greater purpose. And she puts

519
00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:55,880
Speaker 1: that tattoo over her bite, and she has been living

520
00:32:56,040 --> 00:33:00,480
Speaker 1: with this guilt and survivor's guilt of I got this

521
00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:02,160
Speaker 1: bite and I always thought I was going to die

522
00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:03,960
Speaker 1: and then I didn't, and I've been waiting to be

523
00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:07,200
Speaker 1: the next person to die and I don't. So I

524
00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:10,880
Speaker 1: think it's very purposeful that she put it over her bite.

525
00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:11,440
Speaker 3: Right.

526
00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:16,480
Speaker 1: Also, Gail's book that she's reading, Earth Abides, I think

527
00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:20,880
Speaker 1: it's called in It It is a very it's about

528
00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:24,680
Speaker 1: the apocalypse, and in it, the last man who can

529
00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:29,280
Speaker 1: read dies, and so the idea is no one will

530
00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:33,680
Speaker 1: learn how to read once he dies. And so I

531
00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:37,640
Speaker 1: think the implication is once Gail dies, they aren't going

532
00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:39,920
Speaker 1: to have mental health and I'm not going to have

533
00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:40,960
Speaker 1: a therapist. Ay.

534
00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:43,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm surprised anybody's doing mental health.

535
00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:48,160
Speaker 1: I know that is new new to the show, but

536
00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:53,200
Speaker 1: I do love Gail, so I'm very happy. So this

537
00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:58,320
Speaker 1: is like, I feel, this is sort of my soap box,

538
00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:02,640
Speaker 1: one of two I have too, but they're short, I promise.

539
00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:06,920
Speaker 1: I feel Joel wants Ellie to be who he wants

540
00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:11,880
Speaker 1: and not who she actually is. He only wanted the

541
00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:15,959
Speaker 1: answer from Gail that he wanted. He didn't actually want

542
00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:19,799
Speaker 1: the answer, He just wanted the reassurance and affirmation I

543
00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:24,759
Speaker 1: was talking about. And I think that the last of

544
00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:28,600
Speaker 1: us fandom, not all of us, obviously, but a lot

545
00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:30,439
Speaker 1: of it is kind of like this too. We all

546
00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:33,840
Speaker 1: liked Ellie when she was under his protection and looked

547
00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:36,640
Speaker 1: up to him, but now a lot of folks are

548
00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:43,319
Speaker 1: like this. I'm grateful, and I just sometimes I'm like,

549
00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:46,520
Speaker 1: did I wasn't really a rebellious teenager, but I feel

550
00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:50,120
Speaker 1: like a lot of people were, and you can't connect

551
00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:57,439
Speaker 1: with that at all. He's done his wrongs, which we'll

552
00:34:57,480 --> 00:35:01,799
Speaker 1: get into, and what he did girls like why, that's

553
00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:07,080
Speaker 1: really cool and to Eugene to his face. Yeah yeah,

554
00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:10,960
Speaker 1: and we'll get to that more too, because it was

555
00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:18,120
Speaker 1: really unnecessary for multiple reasons. But yes, people are often like, oh,

556
00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:20,480
Speaker 1: Joel saved your life, Ellie, what are you doing. But

557
00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:24,040
Speaker 1: she was ready to die. However you feel about that,

558
00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:27,120
Speaker 1: she was ready to die. She thought she was going

559
00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:30,640
Speaker 1: to die when she got bit, and she did say

560
00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:34,799
Speaker 1: she was waiting for her turn. Also, you can see

561
00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:38,320
Speaker 1: my recent episodes on Cool People Who Do Cool Stuff,

562
00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:42,320
Speaker 1: which was a two parter about vaccines. But it's frustrating

563
00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:46,839
Speaker 1: to me about how individualistic people can be about this

564
00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:50,360
Speaker 1: instead of thinking about the community. And I've been guilty

565
00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:51,680
Speaker 1: of this too for a long time. I didn't get

566
00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:53,200
Speaker 1: the flu vaccine because I was like, oh, oh, I

567
00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:55,080
Speaker 1: don't get the flu, and then somebody was like, yeah,

568
00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:59,279
Speaker 1: it's not about you, it's about other people who might

569
00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:02,439
Speaker 1: get the flu from you. But I mean, Joel could

570
00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:06,240
Speaker 1: have gotten a vaccine if it worked in this world,

571
00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:11,360
Speaker 1: and that's honestly about the best they were going to do.

572
00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:17,560
Speaker 1: And it's gone. I mean it's gone. So Joel keeps

573
00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:21,040
Speaker 1: saying like he understands, but he doesn't. He says to Ellie,

574
00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:24,799
Speaker 1: I understand that he doesn't. He says to Eugene, I

575
00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:27,839
Speaker 1: understand that he doesn't. He said that in the first

576
00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:30,320
Speaker 1: season too. You can there are different levels if I

577
00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:32,440
Speaker 1: can relate to I've had a loss and I can

578
00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:38,000
Speaker 1: relate to, but I feel like he's fundamentally actually misunderstanding

579
00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:44,719
Speaker 1: right or not willing to even try. And I did

580
00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:48,200
Speaker 1: forget one of the most important parallels in the last episode,

581
00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:52,879
Speaker 1: which was Joel's choice to save Ellie versus I called

582
00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:56,400
Speaker 1: her Eliza, But it's Elise, Elise's choice. Who is the

583
00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:58,120
Speaker 1: woman at the beginning who was like my son Leon,

584
00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:02,480
Speaker 1: we see all him and l's what he said, that's

585
00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:05,640
Speaker 1: what he asked for, and that's what we did. So

586
00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:10,000
Speaker 1: she listened to the choice he made and made this

587
00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:16,640
Speaker 1: very painful decision for the community. And that's the thing

588
00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:20,920
Speaker 1: is like the agency. I think Ellie's so angry because

589
00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:25,760
Speaker 1: agency is being taken from her at every turn, Choices

590
00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:28,360
Speaker 1: are being taken from her because even like you know,

591
00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:34,799
Speaker 1: Joel and Marlene. I think we're going to get more

592
00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:37,840
Speaker 1: of this in the next season. But there's kind of

593
00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:42,680
Speaker 1: a bigger thing that happened behind the decision to just

594
00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:49,480
Speaker 1: go ahead with the vaccine. But Marlene was like, you

595
00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:51,719
Speaker 1: know what, you're right, Let's wake her up and ask her,

596
00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:57,200
Speaker 1: and then Joel just shoots her. Shoots Marlene. So I

597
00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:03,040
Speaker 1: think that Joel loves Ellie. I believe that's true, but

598
00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:05,600
Speaker 1: I also think that whole thing was kind of about

599
00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:09,200
Speaker 1: him and not about Ellie, and I think her revenge

600
00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:13,239
Speaker 1: quest is more about her than it is about Joel.

601
00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:18,960
Speaker 1: But I have so many thoughts. I have something that

602
00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:23,200
Speaker 1: I have had. Somebody, at least one listener wrote into

603
00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:25,439
Speaker 1: me and was like, you can't understand because you don't

604
00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:30,719
Speaker 1: have a kid. I mean, I guess that's true, but

605
00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:34,919
Speaker 1: I kind of like I can be empathetic to things.

606
00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:39,759
Speaker 1: I'm not saying that would have been easy, but he

607
00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:46,719
Speaker 1: killed life thirty people, right, So But I just bring

608
00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:49,880
Speaker 1: that up because in the show, they added in a

609
00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:52,280
Speaker 1: line that Joel doesn't have in the game where he says,

610
00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:58,040
Speaker 1: you know you will never He tells Ellie you'll never understand,

611
00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:02,120
Speaker 1: basically imply because you don't have a kid, and until

612
00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:04,239
Speaker 1: you have a kid, you will never understand what I did.

613
00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:08,400
Speaker 1: But just just a reminder Ellie knew Marlene.

614
00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:13,600
Speaker 2: Just a reminder, like, and the story was even deeper

615
00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:16,760
Speaker 2: that the mother he knew her mother.

616
00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:26,239
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, connection, just just remind you, right, Yeah. But

617
00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:30,120
Speaker 1: also like I think it's I like that Dina gave

618
00:39:30,200 --> 00:39:32,399
Speaker 1: Ellie the choice that Joel took from her too. Where

619
00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:34,520
Speaker 1: she's like, I'll go back if you want. I'll go

620
00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:37,440
Speaker 1: with you if you want. But she gave that choice

621
00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:41,960
Speaker 1: to Ellie. But that does bring us to our infamous

622
00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:47,840
Speaker 1: Abby Abby Abby, because her choice was kind of taken

623
00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:51,080
Speaker 1: from her, but now she's made her own and it's

624
00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:54,080
Speaker 1: spiraled out into this whole thing that we're going to

625
00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:59,840
Speaker 1: be seeing all of the consequences of. But yes, this

626
00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:05,880
Speaker 1: does bring us two lies, the lies we tell. And

627
00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:09,680
Speaker 1: so Ellie has been stewing on this, been thinking about

628
00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:13,359
Speaker 1: there's so many holes in Joel's story. I have all

629
00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:18,080
Speaker 1: these questions. The tension is rising between them. They finally

630
00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:22,520
Speaker 1: go on patrol because he lets her. He finally is like, okay,

631
00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:27,320
Speaker 1: I'll let you go, and when something actually happens, he

632
00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:28,960
Speaker 1: tells her to turn around and she says, I'm not

633
00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:32,360
Speaker 1: your kid, Joel, I'm your partner. And so this is

634
00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:35,400
Speaker 1: when we get to Eugene's death because they find Eugene.

635
00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:38,399
Speaker 1: He's been bitten. He says, I got an hour, let's go,

636
00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:41,640
Speaker 1: let me talk to Gail and then you can kill me.

637
00:40:41,719 --> 00:40:44,680
Speaker 1: Like he was very he knew what was up, but

638
00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:48,759
Speaker 1: he wanted to hear her final words and have his

639
00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:54,000
Speaker 1: final words, and Ellie does this test and it's like, yeah,

640
00:40:54,040 --> 00:40:57,080
Speaker 1: he's got time, let's do it. And she looks at

641
00:40:57,120 --> 00:41:00,000
Speaker 1: Joel and he's like, no, I promise, we'll do it.

642
00:41:00,520 --> 00:41:02,160
Speaker 1: You go get the horses. I will walk you down.

643
00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:07,560
Speaker 1: And the thing that's really gets to me about this

644
00:41:07,719 --> 00:41:12,680
Speaker 1: scene is technically Joel was the only one at risk

645
00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:17,480
Speaker 1: of infection because Ellie was fine. So I were I

646
00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:21,200
Speaker 1: guess we're to assume he didn't want anyone to find

647
00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:25,080
Speaker 1: out she wasn't at risk of infection, or he's being

648
00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:29,680
Speaker 1: too overprotective, or he's just like set in his ways

649
00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:33,719
Speaker 1: and doesn't care, and that's it doesn't have room for

650
00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:37,560
Speaker 1: this empathy. I mean, I was even thinking about it

651
00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:40,080
Speaker 1: on my last rewatch. I was like, you know, Eugene

652
00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:43,680
Speaker 1: could have been immune. We don't know for sure, right,

653
00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:46,279
Speaker 1: I don't think he was, but he could have been.

654
00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:49,000
Speaker 2: Well. He said at one point he was cold. He

655
00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:52,839
Speaker 2: make you cold. But there could be the argument, and

656
00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:57,479
Speaker 2: I will say this that he knew bringing Eugene back.

657
00:41:57,640 --> 00:42:03,160
Speaker 2: What if he turns and then attacks Gail or Gail

658
00:42:03,200 --> 00:42:05,359
Speaker 2: does something to let him go because she doesn't want

659
00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:07,000
Speaker 2: to see him shot, and then he goes into the

660
00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:11,080
Speaker 2: village like there's there are other risks, but it does

661
00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:12,480
Speaker 2: seem rather cold.

662
00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:20,520
Speaker 1: Very yeah, very and he so he takes his Eugene

663
00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:24,799
Speaker 1: to a very scenic place and kills him, shoots him

664
00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:28,840
Speaker 1: in the back of the head, and then lies to

665
00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:33,040
Speaker 1: Gail and he tries to control what Ellie's gonna say, right,

666
00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:36,040
Speaker 1: because he's like, yeah, I had to do it, there's

667
00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:40,520
Speaker 1: no choice, and he yeah, completely makes up this whole

668
00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:43,440
Speaker 1: story for Gail, like, oh yeah, the last he just

669
00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:46,480
Speaker 1: wanted to tell you he loved you, and he did

670
00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:49,160
Speaker 1: it himself. And he keeps saying like it was the

671
00:42:49,239 --> 00:42:53,640
Speaker 1: right thing to do. Meanwhile Ellie is clearly stewing over there.

672
00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:59,000
Speaker 1: But anyway, this does recontextualize the conversation Gail had with

673
00:42:59,120 --> 00:43:02,480
Speaker 1: Ellie about last moments, because Gail says, you know, the

674
00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:06,399
Speaker 1: last moments shouldn't define our whole relationship, but they often do,

675
00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:11,200
Speaker 1: and now knowing she was robbed of that. But so

676
00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:17,200
Speaker 1: Ellie hears this and has had enough and tells Gail

677
00:43:17,239 --> 00:43:23,200
Speaker 1: what really happens, and Gail slaps Joel and then Ellie says,

678
00:43:23,239 --> 00:43:25,320
Speaker 1: you swore, which was a very purposeful choice to you

679
00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:29,680
Speaker 1: swore versus promise, because now we're referring to the fireflies

680
00:43:30,640 --> 00:43:34,520
Speaker 1: and what Joel said happened with the fireflies. And it

681
00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:41,800
Speaker 1: is also sad if you think about it, that when Eugene,

682
00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:44,640
Speaker 1: right before he dies, he says, I just want to

683
00:43:44,680 --> 00:43:48,239
Speaker 1: see her face, and Joel's like, oh, if you love someone,

684
00:43:48,280 --> 00:43:49,279
Speaker 1: you can always see their face.

685
00:43:49,640 --> 00:43:50,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was me.

686
00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:56,120
Speaker 1: And then guess what happens. The last thing Joel saw

687
00:43:56,400 --> 00:43:57,760
Speaker 1: was Ellie's face.

688
00:43:58,200 --> 00:43:59,239
Speaker 2: Yeah.

689
00:43:59,360 --> 00:44:01,799
Speaker 1: Yeah. And this is a scene that got cut out

690
00:44:01,840 --> 00:44:06,520
Speaker 1: of the game, but Ellie has a lot of tense

691
00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:09,480
Speaker 1: moments with Joel where she'll say, if only they had

692
00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:13,080
Speaker 1: a cure, right, if only they had a cure, And

693
00:44:13,360 --> 00:44:16,239
Speaker 1: this is I think her survivor was guilt of, like

694
00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:24,520
Speaker 1: if only Eugene had had a cure, he could have lived.

695
00:44:30,480 --> 00:44:35,000
Speaker 1: This brings us to the porch scene. The infamous porch scene.

696
00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:37,959
Speaker 1: You do have a moment that's not in the game

697
00:44:38,080 --> 00:44:42,880
Speaker 1: with the POV from Joel about this party, this New

698
00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:47,520
Speaker 1: Year's party where Maria and he have a suite. But

699
00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:51,720
Speaker 1: you're like, oh, well, he'll be dead tomorrow. Conversation. Tommy's

700
00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:54,560
Speaker 1: like see you next year, and I'm like nope, yeah,

701
00:44:54,800 --> 00:45:02,840
Speaker 1: oh no. Uh. But the porch conversation. I can't. It

702
00:45:02,920 --> 00:45:06,040
Speaker 1: destores me every time. This is the last memory Ellie

703
00:45:06,040 --> 00:45:08,759
Speaker 1: has of Joel. This is the last memory as an

704
00:45:08,760 --> 00:45:12,240
Speaker 1: audience will probably have of Joel unless they bring it back.

705
00:45:13,320 --> 00:45:17,320
Speaker 1: But it says she walks by, and then she comes

706
00:45:17,360 --> 00:45:21,040
Speaker 1: back to the porch to talk to Joel after they've

707
00:45:21,080 --> 00:45:26,680
Speaker 1: had this open altercation in front of everybody in the town.

708
00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:32,040
Speaker 1: And she starts it with asking about kind of small talk,

709
00:45:32,080 --> 00:45:34,160
Speaker 1: but then she starts it with asking for independence. She's like,

710
00:45:34,200 --> 00:45:36,839
Speaker 1: I never want to hear you tell me about what

711
00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:38,640
Speaker 1: patrols I can do again. I never want to do

712
00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:44,080
Speaker 1: all this. And then he asked her about Dina and

713
00:45:44,120 --> 00:45:46,359
Speaker 1: the kiss that they had, and you do see his

714
00:45:46,520 --> 00:45:49,960
Speaker 1: growth here because he doesn't seem to think it's an experiment.

715
00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:52,040
Speaker 1: He's like, oh, she would be lucky to have you.

716
00:45:52,560 --> 00:45:57,560
Speaker 1: So he did grow in that way, and he did

717
00:45:57,600 --> 00:45:59,800
Speaker 1: agree to the patrol thing. They were supposed to patrol

718
00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:01,480
Speaker 1: together the next day.

719
00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:02,960
Speaker 3: Uh.

720
00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:08,919
Speaker 1: But then she just can't pretend. Ellie can't pretend things

721
00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:12,520
Speaker 1: are normal anymore, and so she asked him a bunch

722
00:46:12,520 --> 00:46:15,640
Speaker 1: of her questions about what happened at Salt Lake City

723
00:46:15,640 --> 00:46:17,840
Speaker 1: with the fireflies and Joel still can't even say it.

724
00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:20,400
Speaker 1: In the game, he could say it, but he never

725
00:46:20,560 --> 00:46:23,719
Speaker 1: was able to voice it out loud, to say it

726
00:46:23,719 --> 00:46:26,360
Speaker 1: out loud as Gail asked him to in the first episode,

727
00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:32,879
Speaker 1: he just nods and he admits that yes, there could

728
00:46:32,920 --> 00:46:35,560
Speaker 1: have been a cure, which up ended a lot of fandom,

729
00:46:35,600 --> 00:46:39,160
Speaker 1: by the way, because they're like really like yes, but anyway,

730
00:46:41,200 --> 00:46:43,680
Speaker 1: because it was kind of did we weren't sure if

731
00:46:43,680 --> 00:46:46,160
Speaker 1: he believed there could have been a cure, but in

732
00:46:46,239 --> 00:46:48,880
Speaker 1: here it's clear he believed there could have been a

733
00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:55,680
Speaker 1: cure and killed Marlene, killed all these the fireflies, lied

734
00:46:55,719 --> 00:46:58,920
Speaker 1: to her about it, and she Ellie basically saw the

735
00:46:58,960 --> 00:47:01,920
Speaker 1: same look in his eyes when he lied about Eugene

736
00:47:02,560 --> 00:47:06,000
Speaker 1: that he had when he lied about the firefly. So

737
00:47:06,440 --> 00:47:11,920
Speaker 1: that's that was her final piece of evidence. And she says,

738
00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:14,040
Speaker 1: you took that from me. I was supposed to die there,

739
00:47:14,040 --> 00:47:15,920
Speaker 1: and you took that from me. You took that from everyone,

740
00:47:16,640 --> 00:47:19,320
Speaker 1: And he says, I know, and that's the price I'll pay.

741
00:47:20,200 --> 00:47:25,759
Speaker 1: But he also says the price in his head is

742
00:47:25,800 --> 00:47:29,080
Speaker 1: that Ellie won't want to be with him around him anymore,

743
00:47:30,080 --> 00:47:35,200
Speaker 1: when literally everyone else Abby included like all of her crew.

744
00:47:36,200 --> 00:47:38,879
Speaker 1: The price is not what you're thinking, my friend, right,

745
00:47:40,080 --> 00:47:43,880
Speaker 1: But he does say I'll do it all over again.

746
00:47:44,040 --> 00:47:46,879
Speaker 1: I do it all over again. And this is where

747
00:47:46,880 --> 00:47:50,719
Speaker 1: Ellie calls himselfish. And I do think, like going back

748
00:47:50,760 --> 00:47:55,200
Speaker 1: to what I was saying earlier, there's no doubt in

749
00:47:55,200 --> 00:47:57,759
Speaker 1: my mind that he cares about her and she cares

750
00:47:57,760 --> 00:48:01,480
Speaker 1: about him at all. But I think that he's he's

751
00:48:01,560 --> 00:48:05,720
Speaker 1: so he has so much trauma from what happened to Sarah,

752
00:48:05,840 --> 00:48:11,040
Speaker 1: his daughter, that he that's all That's why he was

753
00:48:11,120 --> 00:48:14,200
Speaker 1: like the prices, you won't want to be around me anymore.

754
00:48:15,600 --> 00:48:21,759
Speaker 1: That's what he's thinking about. He just can't stand to

755
00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:25,720
Speaker 1: lose her. And he says, you know, when it's your return,

756
00:48:26,200 --> 00:48:28,520
Speaker 1: I hope you do better than me, just like his

757
00:48:28,680 --> 00:48:34,719
Speaker 1: dad said. And this is also interesting because in the

758
00:48:34,760 --> 00:48:38,520
Speaker 1: context of Ellie's one of the big scenes from the

759
00:48:38,560 --> 00:48:41,360
Speaker 1: previous season was when she says everyone's always left me,

760
00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:46,120
Speaker 1: everyone except for you, and her fear of being alone

761
00:48:46,680 --> 00:48:51,000
Speaker 1: and having this kind of intersection of where that rubs

762
00:48:51,040 --> 00:48:55,799
Speaker 1: against each other in conflict. But yeah, as you mentioned,

763
00:48:55,840 --> 00:48:59,680
Speaker 1: there's also the famous al mug he does. He has

764
00:48:59,719 --> 00:49:01,319
Speaker 1: a car think of an owl, and there's been a

765
00:49:01,320 --> 00:49:03,799
Speaker 1: lot of breakdown of what the symbolism of that might mean,

766
00:49:04,680 --> 00:49:08,319
Speaker 1: which seems to be mostly people think Joel thinks he's

767
00:49:08,360 --> 00:49:11,240
Speaker 1: really wise, but he's really more violent than he thinks,

768
00:49:11,440 --> 00:49:14,800
Speaker 1: is right. But yes, you can interact with that. In

769
00:49:14,840 --> 00:49:17,080
Speaker 1: the game, you basically walk through his whole house and

770
00:49:17,120 --> 00:49:20,000
Speaker 1: could pick up these items that you saw that remind

771
00:49:20,040 --> 00:49:21,920
Speaker 1: you of him, and the cup is one the museum

772
00:49:22,040 --> 00:49:27,960
Speaker 1: brochures one. Oh yeah, but that's also why she put

773
00:49:28,280 --> 00:49:33,879
Speaker 1: the coffee grounds the coffee beans on Joel's grave, which

774
00:49:33,920 --> 00:49:38,880
Speaker 1: is that's also something very telling of when you lose someone,

775
00:49:38,920 --> 00:49:41,080
Speaker 1: that last thing that you talk to them with or

776
00:49:41,120 --> 00:49:44,160
Speaker 1: whatever it is, it kind of resonates with you. But

777
00:49:44,360 --> 00:49:47,319
Speaker 1: he did love coffee, so I'm sure he was a

778
00:49:47,320 --> 00:49:50,600
Speaker 1: big fan. I love that was a good good thing

779
00:49:50,640 --> 00:49:51,520
Speaker 1: to put on his grave.

780
00:49:51,680 --> 00:49:54,160
Speaker 2: Well, he does say you I would be I'm embarrassed

781
00:49:54,160 --> 00:49:56,880
Speaker 2: to what I had to trade for this, So that

782
00:49:56,920 --> 00:50:00,799
Speaker 2: does imply yes, yeah, but.

783
00:50:01,320 --> 00:50:04,080
Speaker 1: Once again I'll say it, you've never know. The last

784
00:50:04,080 --> 00:50:07,120
Speaker 1: time you'll see someone in this episode is very much

785
00:50:10,640 --> 00:50:12,880
Speaker 1: And then yeah, that brings us back to the theater.

786
00:50:14,239 --> 00:50:17,879
Speaker 1: After Ellie has said I don't know if I can

787
00:50:18,040 --> 00:50:19,839
Speaker 1: forgive you for this, but I'd like to try. And

788
00:50:19,880 --> 00:50:21,919
Speaker 1: that's one of the most painful things is she never

789
00:50:21,920 --> 00:50:26,360
Speaker 1: got to try. And again, as someone who had a

790
00:50:26,440 --> 00:50:29,560
Speaker 1: bad relationship with my dad when he died, it is

791
00:50:30,520 --> 00:50:36,120
Speaker 1: it just it's hard to let go. So one thing

792
00:50:36,120 --> 00:50:39,080
Speaker 1: about the scene that's different from the game is that

793
00:50:39,120 --> 00:50:44,320
Speaker 1: it's two scenes combined. So the porch scene is combined

794
00:50:44,360 --> 00:50:46,839
Speaker 1: with the scene that happens in the middle after Nora,

795
00:50:48,880 --> 00:50:52,799
Speaker 1: where actually Ellie ran away to Salt Lake City and

796
00:50:52,880 --> 00:50:57,040
Speaker 1: found the evidence herself and she found like all these

797
00:50:57,680 --> 00:51:01,320
Speaker 1: old tape cassettes about what happened, and then he finds

798
00:51:01,320 --> 00:51:03,759
Speaker 1: her and then it kind of plays out similarly, and

799
00:51:03,800 --> 00:51:07,080
Speaker 1: then you get the porch scene at the end of

800
00:51:07,080 --> 00:51:11,200
Speaker 1: the game. When she returns to the theater. In the game,

801
00:51:11,280 --> 00:51:14,000
Speaker 1: she is covered in blood and traumatized. I guess we'll

802
00:51:14,000 --> 00:51:20,440
Speaker 1: see she's not covered in blood, but traumatized. I would say, probably,

803
00:51:22,480 --> 00:51:26,480
Speaker 1: And yeah, I mean that's what we're gonna one more

804
00:51:26,560 --> 00:51:30,400
Speaker 1: episode left. We're gonna see is Ellie doing better than Joel.

805
00:51:30,719 --> 00:51:35,520
Speaker 1: We don't know. I do think like this whole idea

806
00:51:35,560 --> 00:51:38,200
Speaker 1: of no one knows what they're doing and justifications is

807
00:51:38,280 --> 00:51:42,759
Speaker 1: interesting because Joel's dad was very much justifying himself, and

808
00:51:42,800 --> 00:51:48,360
Speaker 1: then Joel was doing that too. And it's also interesting

809
00:51:48,440 --> 00:51:50,680
Speaker 1: because when I did forgive my dad, it was after

810
00:51:50,719 --> 00:51:53,560
Speaker 1: he died, but when I did it was in part

811
00:51:53,640 --> 00:51:57,160
Speaker 1: because I knew more of his past and I was like, oh,

812
00:51:57,480 --> 00:52:04,040
Speaker 1: I can see right where this came from. And I

813
00:52:04,080 --> 00:52:11,360
Speaker 1: also just shout out to Ellie the courage of confronting someone,

814
00:52:11,719 --> 00:52:14,640
Speaker 1: because she I think it was she did know it,

815
00:52:15,560 --> 00:52:18,160
Speaker 1: but it was nice. Like, if you're alone in the

816
00:52:18,160 --> 00:52:20,319
Speaker 1: world and there's somebody that you like and it's going

817
00:52:20,360 --> 00:52:25,560
Speaker 1: to protect you in this kind of father daughter dynamic,

818
00:52:26,960 --> 00:52:32,200
Speaker 1: then confronting that and possibly losing that is very scary.

819
00:52:33,560 --> 00:52:41,080
Speaker 1: But anyway, goodbye, goodbye, goodbye. Maybe we'll see you again.

820
00:52:42,400 --> 00:52:50,759
Speaker 1: My mom would listen. I was crying to everybody. I'm

821
00:52:50,840 --> 00:52:56,640
Speaker 1: right there with you. This is how I cope, this

822
00:52:56,680 --> 00:52:59,560
Speaker 1: is how I cope. I'm very excited, but I am

823
00:52:59,600 --> 00:53:02,000
Speaker 1: also I'm nervous because they have so far to go

824
00:53:02,160 --> 00:53:04,680
Speaker 1: and I don't know how they're gonna end it. But

825
00:53:04,800 --> 00:53:08,160
Speaker 1: I did notice the Ferris wheel is in the The

826
00:53:08,280 --> 00:53:10,600
Speaker 1: Fairest Wheel is in the next week on That's like

827
00:53:10,640 --> 00:53:16,839
Speaker 1: a big point in the game. Mm, well, you'll see listeners.

828
00:53:18,120 --> 00:53:21,960
Speaker 1: We'll stay tuned for our our take on the finale.

829
00:53:23,000 --> 00:53:26,480
Speaker 1: But yes, in the meantime, please email us if you

830
00:53:26,480 --> 00:53:28,600
Speaker 1: would like to reach us. You can email us at

831
00:53:28,719 --> 00:53:30,960
Speaker 1: Hello at stuff Iever Told You dot com. You can

832
00:53:30,960 --> 00:53:33,840
Speaker 1: find us on lue Sky, Mopster podcast, or on Instagram

833
00:53:33,840 --> 00:53:36,080
Speaker 1: and TikTok at stuff I Never Told You. We're also

834
00:53:36,080 --> 00:53:37,640
Speaker 1: on YouTube. We have a tea public store, and we

835
00:53:37,640 --> 00:53:39,440
Speaker 1: have a book you can get where we get your books.

836
00:53:39,640 --> 00:53:42,240
Speaker 1: Thanks and always to a super produced Christina, our executive

837
00:53:42,239 --> 00:53:44,360
Speaker 1: Brusa Maya, and our contructor Joey.

838
00:53:44,640 --> 00:53:46,400
Speaker 2: Thank you and thanks to you for listening.

839
00:53:46,480 --> 00:53:48,279
Speaker 1: Steffan Never Told You the projection of by Heart Radio.

840
00:53:48,320 --> 00:53:49,960
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, you can check

841
00:53:50,000 --> 00:53:51,880
Speaker 1: out the heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or if you

842
00:53:51,960 --> 00:54:01,160
Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows, Love

843
00:54:03,000 --> 00:54:03,200
Speaker 2: Yeah