Speaker 1: Welcome to Go ask Ali, a production of Shonda Land
Speaker 1: Audio and partnership with I Heart Radio Hiamali Wentworth And
Speaker 1: you're listening to Go ask Ali. Where this season I'm
Speaker 1: asking the question, how do you grow a healthy relationship
Speaker 1: with ourselves, with our loved ones? How even the ups guy?
Speaker 1: And in this episode, I'm chatting with Glennon Doyle, author, warrior, thought, provoker, activist,
Speaker 1: brilliant lady about authentic love. So I become very cynical
Speaker 1: about authentic love. I didn't think it existed. I tried
Speaker 1: in very different circumstances to create authentic love, and I
Speaker 1: found myself. At one point in my life in my
Speaker 1: early thirties, I was single, I know, which is shocking,
Speaker 1: and somebody was setting me up with my now husband,
Speaker 1: George Stephanopolis, and I sort of thought, you know what,
Speaker 1: I will on a date with him. It'll be like
Speaker 1: a great New Yorker article my date with George. But
Speaker 1: on paper, I didn't think it would work at all.
Speaker 1: He was involved in politics. I hate politics. He lived
Speaker 1: in New York. I lived in l A. We were
Speaker 1: so so different that I thought, I'm just going to
Speaker 1: do this on a waim and it'll be silly because
Speaker 1: in my mind, and I think a lot of people
Speaker 1: share this, you have this idea of what authentic love
Speaker 1: looks like. And for me, authentic love was a six
Speaker 1: ft to carpenter. So I met George, and I of
Speaker 1: course wore a black suit, so I looked really smart,
Speaker 1: and I read the New York Times, even the financial section,
Speaker 1: which I didn't understand. I don't think I shaved my
Speaker 1: legs because I didn't think it was going to end
Speaker 1: up being romantic in any way. And when I met
Speaker 1: him for lunch, I sat down at the table and
Speaker 1: we immediately started talking about what antidepressants we were on,
Speaker 1: and I just felt like I had come home. I
Speaker 1: have no other way to describe it. And when we
Speaker 1: got married, people were scratching their heads. They did not
Speaker 1: understand how the two of us had come together because
Speaker 1: we were so different. I mean, people were making bets
Speaker 1: on how long it was going to last, and to
Speaker 1: this day, I mean, the twenty years we've been married,
Speaker 1: to kids. It is authentic love because nothing about it
Speaker 1: makes sense. So when I read my guest memoir about
Speaker 1: her journey to authentic love, I felt a real kinship
Speaker 1: with her and I'm so thrilled she's here to talk
Speaker 1: about it with me. My guest is glenn and Doyle.
Speaker 1: She's the author of the number one New York Times
Speaker 1: bestseller Untamed, which has sold over one million copies in
Speaker 1: fewer than twenty weeks. She's also the author of the
Speaker 1: number one New York Times bestseller Love Warrior and Carry
Speaker 1: On Warrior. Glennon is a founder and president of Together Rising,
Speaker 1: and all women led nonprofit organization raising over twenty five
Speaker 1: million dollars for women, families and childre it in crisis.
Speaker 1: I just reread Glennon's latest book, Untamed, and the greatest
Speaker 1: part of this story is that Glennon found her true love.
Speaker 1: Her authentic love came in a package that she wouldn't
Speaker 1: otherwise unwrapped, so to speak. Her authentic love shocked her,
Speaker 1: came out of nowhere, and just like my authentic love
Speaker 1: was not the idealistic image we had in our mind,
Speaker 1: Glennon found true love with soccer superstar abbywan Back. And
Speaker 1: it is this story and how Glennan got there that
Speaker 1: has people so mesmerized and hopeful about their own lives.
Speaker 1: Hi Hi, Hi. First of all, I'm so happy to
Speaker 1: talk to you. I really am. I was talking to
Speaker 1: George early this morning. He said, are you excited to
Speaker 1: talk to Glenn And I said, you know what, I
Speaker 1: want to take a bath with her. I do, and
Speaker 1: in a very non sexual way. I want to be
Speaker 1: in a warm bath. And I just tell you all
Speaker 1: my stories. But so the reason I'm bringing you on
Speaker 1: because I could talk to you about everything, but this
Speaker 1: particular episode is about authentic love, which you've written a
Speaker 1: lot about, and believe it or not, I've been asked
Speaker 1: a lot about it because I was set up with
Speaker 1: George Stephanopolis and we were engaged two months later, and
Speaker 1: we've been married for twenty years, and we are so different, Glennon,
Speaker 1: we could not be more different as people. And I
Speaker 1: mean the only downside was my mother was thrilled just
Speaker 1: because you know, he was George Stephanopolus. But I know
Speaker 1: I tried really hard to rebel against all them, so
Speaker 1: you couldn't dig it to her at the end. Now
Speaker 1: now I know everybody was happy. He wants that. I know.
Speaker 1: I wanted to bring Joan Armitrating home. You know I didn't.
Speaker 1: This is not what I wanted, but I felt like
Speaker 1: I had found my person. And when I read your book,
Speaker 1: I thought, yeah, she's she's able to verbalize it better
Speaker 1: than I ever was. So let's talk about your authentic love.
Speaker 1: Your husband was unfaithful to you, You physically and emotionally
Speaker 1: couldn't do it anymore. You were at a convention to
Speaker 1: sell your books and in walks this woman, and you
Speaker 1: knew at that second. Yeah. So it was awkward and
Speaker 1: terrible timing because the event that I was at was
Speaker 1: the first event to launch Love Warrior, right, okay, and
Speaker 1: Love Warrior was my last memoir, and it was being
Speaker 1: touted all over the place as an epic marriage redemption story.
Speaker 1: I didn't ever say that. I don't think it's a
Speaker 1: marriage redemption story, but you know, that was the hook
Speaker 1: they were using to sell it, epic marriage redemption story.
Speaker 1: And you know, I guess in some ways, on the surface,
Speaker 1: my marriage had been redeemed, whatever that means. I mean,
Speaker 1: we were functioning, We were in the wake of infidelity,
Speaker 1: We were doing all the things you're supposed to do
Speaker 1: to earn forgiveness, you know, like just waiting for peace
Speaker 1: and love to just fall from the sky. And you
Speaker 1: liked each other. That's important to say, right, you, you
Speaker 1: would Craig like each other. We do now, we do now. Um.
Speaker 1: We we got married because it was the right thing
Speaker 1: to do, not because we were the right people for
Speaker 1: each other. And when I say right thing to do,
Speaker 1: I mean that, like with air quotes, right, it wasn't
Speaker 1: the right thing to do, actually, But I had a
Speaker 1: list of what families were supposed to look like, and
Speaker 1: I thought that we were supposed to get married, right.
Speaker 1: So whenever you start thinking about the supposed to so
Speaker 1: that's when you're about to just, yeah, walk right into
Speaker 1: some kind of cage. You're gonna have to break out eventually. Right.
Speaker 1: So we got married and we just started building this
Speaker 1: little family. And I was like four minutes sober. I
Speaker 1: mean I got sober when I found out I was
Speaker 1: pregnant Chase, and so I had been a blimic and
Speaker 1: an alcoholic for a decade and a half, and so
Speaker 1: you know, when you're freshly sober, you're just you're not
Speaker 1: even supposed to get a plant, right, And I just like, yeah, Kangbusters,
Speaker 1: you bought a jungle. Yeah, and like assigned myself as
Speaker 1: in charge of the jungle and had never grown a
Speaker 1: plant before, right, But even so, We built a great
Speaker 1: little life, you know, with three ridiculous kids. I was teaching.
Speaker 1: We were really good co parents, and you were attracted
Speaker 1: to the father he was, Yeah. You you might not
Speaker 1: wanted to crawl into bed with them, but when you
Speaker 1: saw him interact with your kids, it was something that
Speaker 1: sort of kept you there. Yeah. The people who don't
Speaker 1: know my family, I mean, you don't watch Craig with
Speaker 1: the kids and not be like, oh my god, this
Speaker 1: is exactly what every dad is supposed to be. Like,
Speaker 1: He's just amazing, and he's completely devoted to them and
Speaker 1: always husband and always will be. And you know, I
Speaker 1: think I did what a lot of women do, is
Speaker 1: I knew that there was something major missing when I
Speaker 1: saw movies about love or like even talked to friends
Speaker 1: you were really in love. I didn't know what the
Speaker 1: hell they were talking about, and really didn't, And so
Speaker 1: I just told myself that that was just bullshit. That's
Speaker 1: what I do about a lot of things. I just like, Okay,
Speaker 1: well that's just Disney stuff and it's not real anyway,
Speaker 1: and Miley is good enough. And I think that's what
Speaker 1: a lot of women do, right. I just we can't
Speaker 1: have everything I have to be grateful for what we have.
Speaker 1: It could be worse, like just sucking up butter cup. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I get a lot of that. My family voice was, well,
Speaker 1: you're lucky that you didn't dot dot dot, I mean
Speaker 1: even now. Well, yes, you're fine now, but wait till
Speaker 1: the stock market dropped and you have no money and
Speaker 1: just waiting for you to crash, and until you get
Speaker 1: this new strain of COVID, and wait till you know. Yeah,
Speaker 1: as my mother says, the wolf is always waiting outside
Speaker 1: the door. Oh that's a lot. That's my family vibe too. Yeah,
Speaker 1: my mom and I are best friends. But I was
Speaker 1: raised by football coach. Everything was no pain, no gain,
Speaker 1: suck it up. I mean I was like overly sensitive,
Speaker 1: depressed in just like poet being raised by a football coach.
Speaker 1: It's just what it wasn't gonna work, no, no, I
Speaker 1: was never going to suck it up butter I mean
Speaker 1: I did. I just sucked it up with like pantries
Speaker 1: full of food every night and then threw up like
Speaker 1: that was my way of coping with all of it. Right,
Speaker 1: and then we were Catholic on top of it, so
Speaker 1: suffering was just worshiped. Literally suffering was proof of strength
Speaker 1: of worthiness, and that becomes your comfort place. I know this,
Speaker 1: I'll stay in there night. So I knew there was
Speaker 1: you know, we sex was so I could never figure
Speaker 1: sex out, Ollie, So I'd be like, Okay, sex, it's
Speaker 1: like an oil change for a car. You just have
Speaker 1: to like do it every once in a while, even
Speaker 1: though it's so annoying, because it just keeps the car
Speaker 1: going smoothly. Like That's how I actually felt about sex
Speaker 1: inside my marriage. It was just something I had to
Speaker 1: do every once in a while, just keep everybody happy,
Speaker 1: keep the marriage going. A lot of women feel that
Speaker 1: doesn't break down, you know, so nobody's like complaining like whatever.
Speaker 1: I had a friend once say to me. She was like,
Speaker 1: I don't get sex, And I said, well, what what
Speaker 1: sort of turns you on or what gets you going
Speaker 1: with it? And she goes, I think about the oreo
Speaker 1: I'm going to get when I'm done. So she's just
Speaker 1: fixated on the oreo that she would eat when they
Speaker 1: were finished. H I get that. Yeah, I get that. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And I used to really actually dissociate, like I would
Speaker 1: just be like, Okay, I'm not here, I'm planning the
Speaker 1: grocery list. I'm already on the couch with the Netflix.
Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm not here, and I just thought there's
Speaker 1: something wrong with me. And then I found out about
Speaker 1: the infidelity, which had been going on since the beginning,
Speaker 1: since just weeks after the wedding. Huh. I was out
Speaker 1: of my mind, panicked. I was just like, oh, no, no,
Speaker 1: I did everything I was supposed to do. I was
Speaker 1: a good girl. I was a good mom. I was
Speaker 1: a good wife. I was a good I was you know,
Speaker 1: and now like it just wasn't enough. And I was
Speaker 1: so scared for my kids. You know, my parents never
Speaker 1: got divorced. I thought divorce was like the ultimate failure.
Speaker 1: If you stay married forever, you are successful, that's interesting.
Speaker 1: I'm from a million divorces, so mine was like, if
Speaker 1: the first sign of trouble get out. Well, I know
Speaker 1: plenty of people who are married, and I would never
Speaker 1: call them a success. Like to me, it's no more like, oh,
Speaker 1: a marriage of success if you stay forever, even if
Speaker 1: you're slilly dying inside. Like, no, I have completely redefined
Speaker 1: what success looks like for sure, But at the time
Speaker 1: I was terrified. At the kids were so young, and
Speaker 1: I just just like I'm gonna make this work. That
Speaker 1: was the attitude. There's a set of things that I
Speaker 1: can do that will turn this into a beautiful story.
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm a memoirist, Like that's what I'm I
Speaker 1: can work with this material, like this is just this
Speaker 1: is just the worst scene, right, Like this isn't how
Speaker 1: it ends. Like we can we'll just just you know,
Speaker 1: we'll add a bunch of like therapy and yoga and
Speaker 1: we'll just like and I didn't know if I was
Speaker 1: like writing it or living it. I know, chapter twelve
Speaker 1: they go to Hawaii, So so now we'll go to Hawaii.
Speaker 1: So we did all the things, and we really did
Speaker 1: get to a place where we were outwardly able to
Speaker 1: live together and be would have looked at us from
Speaker 1: the outside and been like, they're just a cute family,
Speaker 1: Like you know, we were functioning, but I was just
Speaker 1: still piste off all the time. Like if you had
Speaker 1: looked at an X ray of me, I was like
Speaker 1: a dormant volcano with lipstick on inside. I was just
Speaker 1: like this river of rage and it would come out
Speaker 1: when I was expected to make myself vulnerable in anyway
Speaker 1: to him, because I would be so angry that I
Speaker 1: could be expected to even pretend that I trusted again.
Speaker 1: And it became like this refrain in my head that
Speaker 1: was like how could he have done this? And one
Speaker 1: day I woke up and I was like, oh, oh,
Speaker 1: I see. The question is how could I keep doing
Speaker 1: this to me? Yeah, you're the one that keeps going
Speaker 1: and making yourself vulnerable when you know you don't feel safe,
Speaker 1: when your body is telling you don't feel safe, your
Speaker 1: heart is telling you. So I'm in this place of
Speaker 1: like what the hell am I going to do? And
Speaker 1: then I'm on the road launching an epic marriage redemption story,
Speaker 1: which is a really good time, and I'm at that
Speaker 1: first event and I just look over at the door
Speaker 1: and there's just a woman standing there. And I mean,
Speaker 1: talk about completely opposite from whatever list you've made for yourself,
Speaker 1: Like this is a completely different gendered person. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: Mine was just great, right, greaking political. Yeah. Well mine
Speaker 1: was a girl in a in an athlete, so that
Speaker 1: was like the athlete part was as much of a
Speaker 1: leap for me as the gender part. Like everything would
Speaker 1: have been the opposite of my list. But Ellie, so
Speaker 1: I'm telling you that I was the person who had
Speaker 1: told myself that love was not a real thing, right,
Speaker 1: that this romantic idea is for Disney and whatever, and
Speaker 1: my parents, my family would make fun of me for this.
Speaker 1: But I'm like, wait, love, it's like a light, okay.
Speaker 1: And some people are meant to have laser love like
Speaker 1: on one person, and some people are meant to have floodlight,
Speaker 1: just like a little bit of love for everyone. And
Speaker 1: that's how I am. I'm just more of a floodlight,
Speaker 1: so I told myself. But you know, my activism and
Speaker 1: the philanthropy and the art, that was like, I used
Speaker 1: it all up so I couldn't be like lasered in
Speaker 1: on one person. You're your own little publicist. I guess it.
Speaker 1: That's what we do. We we just we freaking rationalize
Speaker 1: our lives by explaining this and that and how we
Speaker 1: can't have everything and how we have to be grateful
Speaker 1: for what we do have, like this the flood light possibility.
Speaker 1: But when I saw her, my whole self was just like,
Speaker 1: oh shit, And just from seeing her, just her standing
Speaker 1: in the door, that was it. Yeah, there was an
Speaker 1: electric yes. And I didn't know at that moment like
Speaker 1: I'm going to marry this person. It wasn't like that.
Speaker 1: It was just like, oh, this is what's happening right
Speaker 1: now is very very important this person and is very
Speaker 1: very important. Did it feel sexual or did it feel
Speaker 1: like an enlightenment? Yeah, like like, um, you know. My
Speaker 1: friend was like, well is it was just like you know,
Speaker 1: meeting a best friend. Like I have met friends where
Speaker 1: I just meet them and I know that this is
Speaker 1: a person and I'm like no, no, no no, Like
Speaker 1: I would have been like if I can only be
Speaker 1: friends with that person, I will die, Like I would
Speaker 1: rather die than only be friends with that person. Would
Speaker 1: have been like my in my body. I was just
Speaker 1: I was very very very attracted to her, and it
Speaker 1: was just so freaking baffling. And that's just I've never
Speaker 1: I've never kissed a girl that on a date with
Speaker 1: a girl considered like I had never had I didn't
Speaker 1: have any context for the experience that I was having.
Speaker 1: Well that's the big head scratcher. Don't you think we're
Speaker 1: gonna take a short break and we'll be right back
Speaker 1: and we're back with more? Go ask Ali. You must
Speaker 1: get a million questions about, well, it's not that you
Speaker 1: had picked the wrong you were gay. I have a
Speaker 1: good friend, smart writer, and I was talking to her
Speaker 1: this morning and she said, who are you talking to you?
Speaker 1: I said Glennon Doyle And she said, God, I love
Speaker 1: her so much, But how did she go from sleeping
Speaker 1: with a man too woman? I couldn't do it, And
Speaker 1: I said, well, I think it's the person that transcends
Speaker 1: the kind of penis of vagina, mechanics of it all
Speaker 1: I would assume. I mean, I get how she could
Speaker 1: not understand it, like I understand that because I cannot
Speaker 1: understand her thinking about it, Like I just feel, well,
Speaker 1: first of all, I feel like people are just a
Speaker 1: lot gayer than they usually admit. Like people can tell
Speaker 1: me their stories honestly anyway for the last decade, but
Speaker 1: now since Abby like the stories people tell me about
Speaker 1: their insides, I just feel like I'm way too much
Speaker 1: information about everyone is fifty shades a day, all I think, Yeah, totally. So,
Speaker 1: I think it's very unusual to be a person's like
Speaker 1: I can't imagine, like really you've never imagined it? Really?
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, But that friend is probably going to
Speaker 1: come out in a few years. But to this, I
Speaker 1: would be so happy if she she she doesn't get
Speaker 1: me and George, you know, I don't think, Yeah, she's
Speaker 1: experienced that herself, so she wouldn't get it, like the
Speaker 1: boundary crossing, whole love thing, that's not that's not a
Speaker 1: check the box list exactly of a good match, right.
Speaker 1: I mean when in the beginning, I used to be
Speaker 1: like Abbey because all anyone asked me for a year,
Speaker 1: I was like, okay, so what are you like? It
Speaker 1: didn't matter what I was working on, what I was
Speaker 1: doing with the with activis, and it was like, okay,
Speaker 1: so before we get started, can you just think what
Speaker 1: are you like? Are you gay? Like you weren't? You
Speaker 1: didn't know you were gay before but now you know,
Speaker 1: or you were in the closet but you didn't. And
Speaker 1: I don't I think that most thinkers who are paying
Speaker 1: attention to like the evolution of our understanding of sexuality,
Speaker 1: because I don't think sexuality really evolves. It's the same.
Speaker 1: It's just like our understanding of what it is um
Speaker 1: is different than that. It's not like we have to
Speaker 1: be one thing. It's like much more fluid than that.
Speaker 1: Everything plays a part in it. Absolutely, our age, our experiences,
Speaker 1: our friendships, are spirituality are politics. It's like how you
Speaker 1: people are one faith and they are swear they're this
Speaker 1: one thing, and then they go somewhere or they meet somebody,
Speaker 1: or there they read a book or then then suddenly
Speaker 1: they're like, maybe it's wider than that. But it's not
Speaker 1: like they were like a fake or lying that they
Speaker 1: were a Christian before, like they really meant it. I
Speaker 1: have two teen aged daughters and we have constant arguments
Speaker 1: because you know, they're in that generation of having to
Speaker 1: label themselves and I'm very against that. I think once
Speaker 1: we get rid of those labels or trying to fit
Speaker 1: ourselves in a kennel cage of what we're supposed to be,
Speaker 1: those are the people that then go, oh my god,
Speaker 1: well then what are you, Glennan? What are you? Are? You? Persian?
Speaker 1: What you have to explain yourself to me? Because I
Speaker 1: don't really know who I am? And that's why I
Speaker 1: ended end tamed with the I Am chapter. I feel
Speaker 1: like whatever you put after I Am just ends up
Speaker 1: being a cage eventually. But I want to ask you
Speaker 1: about the journey to Abby because I sometimes think that
Speaker 1: had you met Abby twenty years earlier, you wouldn't have
Speaker 1: been able to have that physical reaction. I don't think
Speaker 1: because of the experiences and the things that you needed
Speaker 1: to go through that led you to her. I think
Speaker 1: that's right. You know, I don't think I would have
Speaker 1: been attracted to George because you know, when I was
Speaker 1: twenty years old, I was like, Oh, I'm going to
Speaker 1: marry Hugh Grant. He's going to be an advertiser and
Speaker 1: we're gonna have two kids, and this is what the
Speaker 1: Christmas card looks like. You know, I had a very
Speaker 1: sad idea, so that if my abbey walked in, I
Speaker 1: wouldn't have seen it. Yeah. So I want to know
Speaker 1: what you think about that, because I think when a
Speaker 1: lot of people talk about authentic love, I think it
Speaker 1: in some ways has to be earned by your own
Speaker 1: experience and your own willingness to understand yourself and trust yourself.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think that's the difference for me. I
Speaker 1: could have had that experience and shut it down. You know.
Speaker 1: Part of like gayness or well whatever clearness is like Okay,
Speaker 1: you have the feeling, but are you open to pursuing it? Right? Right?
Speaker 1: So there is a choice there, And people hate when
Speaker 1: you use the word choice around sexuality, but there is
Speaker 1: a choice, always a choice before you decide to like
Speaker 1: freaking go after someone right, like, there's there's a choice
Speaker 1: to be made. So I think I needed to have
Speaker 1: had the experience of having a and knowing that my
Speaker 1: faith was bigger than my religion. That is a journey
Speaker 1: that I went on for a decade before meeting Abbie,
Speaker 1: and I did a lot of it publicly and was
Speaker 1: you know, ostracized for it, was kicked out of churches,
Speaker 1: went through the hard parts of that, and then went
Speaker 1: through the beautiful parts of that, which is like, oh,
Speaker 1: none of that kills you, and who fucking cares like
Speaker 1: and now look at me. I get to live free
Speaker 1: and not pretend and not lie about what I believe
Speaker 1: and don't believe in who I hate and don't hate.
Speaker 1: They're not the boss of me anymore religious funimentalists. So
Speaker 1: I had to go through that whole experience to realize
Speaker 1: that sometimes to find your fit you have to go
Speaker 1: outside of the expectations and boundary of that particular area.
Speaker 1: I had done it in terms of religion and gone
Speaker 1: through the whole process of it and trusted myself more
Speaker 1: than all the people yelling at what I should be
Speaker 1: and who I should follow, and while it was very
Speaker 1: difficult and scary, I found a lot of freedom and
Speaker 1: peace and was comfortable in my own skin inside of
Speaker 1: faith for the first time. I mean, I think a
Speaker 1: lot of it too, is we're all sort of shackled
Speaker 1: by fear, and everything is fear motivated. I mean, now,
Speaker 1: and I'm in my late eighties, I'm trying to let
Speaker 1: go of things that scare me because I've learned so
Speaker 1: far in my life that those things didn't kill me.
Speaker 1: Once you get through it and you know you're going
Speaker 1: to survive and you're going to live, it's it's so
Speaker 1: much more freeing than having not gone through that. And
Speaker 1: it's alread either way, and it's alread either way. That's
Speaker 1: the thing. Like staying in a relationship that you know
Speaker 1: is not where you're supposed to be is really fucking hard,
Speaker 1: Like that's slowly dying inside. Like that's and I think
Speaker 1: people think, oh, I can stay and do the easy thing,
Speaker 1: or I can go and do the hard thing. And
Speaker 1: I don't mean just in terms of marriage, I mean
Speaker 1: in terms of all of the things. I mean that
Speaker 1: whole idea of leaving your relationship because you're scared of
Speaker 1: your finances, like how many I have had those thoughts
Speaker 1: so many times, like how but I can't do my
Speaker 1: own life? Yeah, I think what we have been, what
Speaker 1: women especially have been routinely sold as easy, is not
Speaker 1: at all easy. It's actually soul crushing, right, So it's
Speaker 1: kind of that, like choose your hard idea. And another
Speaker 1: part in your book that really resonated with me was
Speaker 1: I have been the bride'smaid to bride's who didn't want
Speaker 1: to get married. I mean, I've been in the limo
Speaker 1: with the bride crying, going what am I doing? What
Speaker 1: am I doing? And I'm saying, you don't have to
Speaker 1: do this, but people have been invited, you know, And
Speaker 1: then she takes his xanics and goes through with it.
Speaker 1: And I wrote about it in my last book because
Speaker 1: it was nobody's trusting their gut, nobody's listening to that inside.
Speaker 1: Those women that I was wearing these hideous colored bridesmaid
Speaker 1: dresses now are divorced. It's not a shock because even
Speaker 1: at that moment they knew somewhere in their body that
Speaker 1: this was the wrong choice. Well, good for them that
Speaker 1: they finally honored it. I mean, many people are just
Speaker 1: still married to the person that they knew they shouldn't marry,
Speaker 1: and that they know every day they're not sins to
Speaker 1: be married too. So I don't even know if it's
Speaker 1: not trusting your gut, because it's like worse than that.
Speaker 1: At that point, it's like you do know, you feel
Speaker 1: your gut, you do trust it, and you still would
Speaker 1: rather disappoint yourself than disappoint the people sitting in the views.
Speaker 1: You choose to abandon yourself so that you don't rock
Speaker 1: the boat, like that's just what we have been told
Speaker 1: to do. Well, But it's amazing to me. I think
Speaker 1: in your book you wrote about not wanting to disappoint
Speaker 1: people that were invited. But I mean, I had one
Speaker 1: friend of mine say to me, there's so much salmon moose,
Speaker 1: aren't there food pantries? You can? Can we please just
Speaker 1: use that as a metaphor forever though, Like every time
Speaker 1: one of our friends are we are about to make
Speaker 1: a stupid decision just because some plants have been made,
Speaker 1: we just have to say, you know what, we can
Speaker 1: just throw away the salmon mouse. We can defeat it
Speaker 1: to other people like who who like salmon moose? Anyway?
Speaker 1: Nobody no one, No one does, No one does. It
Speaker 1: would have been a gift to all present to cancel
Speaker 1: the damn what right. But I needed to experience abandoning
Speaker 1: everyone's expectations for me and surviving it in order to
Speaker 1: even consider leaving my marriage and being with a woman.
Speaker 1: You know, six weeks before before Age Redemption story was
Speaker 1: coming out, and like, you know, my parents, like children,
Speaker 1: my you know, my agents and editors and all people
Speaker 1: who are so invest in my career who told me
Speaker 1: that it was career suicide, like you know it just
Speaker 1: having survived everyone losing their ship around you and still
Speaker 1: being like, no, I'm gonna trust myself anyway. Is something
Speaker 1: that you have to do a few times before you
Speaker 1: can do it big. And then it's so empowering, isn't it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And then you get to the point where you see
Speaker 1: it's a pattern. They're like, oh yeah, this is the
Speaker 1: point where you lose your mind, mom. This is the
Speaker 1: point where everyone that works around me tells me this
Speaker 1: isn't gonna work. This is the point where everyone gets
Speaker 1: very upset. And then I start just doing the thing
Speaker 1: and showing everybody that it's okay, that we're all going
Speaker 1: to survive. And then everyone starts calming down. Oh, this
Speaker 1: is the part where everyone starts telling me how brave
Speaker 1: I am. When they were telling me I was that
Speaker 1: ship crazy four months ago. Right now they're proud of me.
Speaker 1: Now they're proud of me. Right. So it really, in
Speaker 1: my life is a pattern, and it's helpful when you're like, oh,
Speaker 1: this is the part where everyone tells me I'm nuts.
Speaker 1: That's okay, We'll get to the next part soon, right,
Speaker 1: There's a lot more to come after this short break.
Speaker 1: Welcome back with more go ask Gali. So, Glenn and
Speaker 1: you talk about this snow globe you had when you
Speaker 1: were younger, in a snow globe that when you shook
Speaker 1: it it would get all flurry, and then when it
Speaker 1: would settle, there'd be a dragon in the middle. And
Speaker 1: you use this imagery as so many of us, so
Speaker 1: many women in particular, we keep the globe shaken because
Speaker 1: we're always running around and we don't want it to
Speaker 1: settle because then we're going to ultimately have to face
Speaker 1: our dragons or the thing that we're avoiding. So after
Speaker 1: we settle our snow globes and we are literally facing
Speaker 1: our demons, how do we get into that next phase
Speaker 1: of knowing. You know, I have a lot of women
Speaker 1: friends and all as you do, all different situations in
Speaker 1: their life, and I see many of them, uh, And
Speaker 1: I refer to your snow globe metaphor, because so many
Speaker 1: of them keep themselves really busy because they don't want
Speaker 1: to feel right. And you know, these are badass women.
Speaker 1: I mean, these are activists and writers and actors, and
Speaker 1: they've got kids, and they're paying the mortgage and they're
Speaker 1: doing all this stuff. But they go a hundred miles
Speaker 1: an hour. And I think about what you write about
Speaker 1: the knowing and what it is to go into a
Speaker 1: closet and sit and really sort of feel yourself and
Speaker 1: your thoughts. And I think about women who want a
Speaker 1: different kind of relationship or different kind of life. How
Speaker 1: do you explain that journey? If I said to you,
Speaker 1: you know, Glennon, I read that part about knowing, and
Speaker 1: I want to do that. First of all, I got
Speaker 1: to clean out my closet because I bought too many
Speaker 1: shoes on the real wheel trying to keep your snow glups.
Speaker 1: That's one of our main strategies to buy more ship.
Speaker 1: So I get in my closet and I curl up,
Speaker 1: and now what do I do? Well, I don't know
Speaker 1: if it's the closet for everybody, right, I mean the
Speaker 1: closet journey began when I actually found myself googling what
Speaker 1: should I what should I do in my marriage? Like
Speaker 1: I was googling what do you do if your husband
Speaker 1: is a cheater but also a good dad? Like Ali, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean I get it. And at this point I'm
Speaker 1: like kind of a big deal writer. People are following
Speaker 1: my advice and I'm googling right, so and then it
Speaker 1: was like the realization of this kind of ven diagram
Speaker 1: that I live in, which is like part faith based,
Speaker 1: part feminist. The feminist one women telling me this is
Speaker 1: what you should do. You should leave. A good mother
Speaker 1: would leave, a strong woman would never put up with
Speaker 1: this ship whatever. And then the Christian side exact opposite.
Speaker 1: A good woman would stay, a strong mother would stay.
Speaker 1: About the right thing to do is whatever. And it's
Speaker 1: just a beautiful thing to happen to a woman because
Speaker 1: it's like you realize that I can't please everybody that
Speaker 1: was so helpful to me to understand oh, right and wrong,
Speaker 1: good and bad. That's all made that ship's made up.
Speaker 1: So that's when I really understood. Okay, I am like
Speaker 1: consulting every voice outside of myself. I have asked friends,
Speaker 1: friends who, by the way, I know what they don't
Speaker 1: know what the hell they're doing with their own life,
Speaker 1: but I'm going to them to ask them what I
Speaker 1: should do with my life. Okay, well, Oprah does know
Speaker 1: what we should all do with our life, so that's
Speaker 1: a little bit different. She's the exception. But like I
Speaker 1: just realized, I don't know anymore how to listen to myself,
Speaker 1: Like I have lost this connection, like somebody cut a
Speaker 1: line between myself and my intuition a long time ago.
Speaker 1: So it was really an effort to, at a desperate
Speaker 1: time of my life, to somehow figure out what I
Speaker 1: wanted so I wouldn't continue to follow other people's directions
Speaker 1: my entire life and come to the end of my
Speaker 1: life and realize that I had not lived. So I
Speaker 1: started to just sit and being still has always been
Speaker 1: very hard for me. That's why I was an addict
Speaker 1: for my whole life. Like addiction is just a constant
Speaker 1: effort to avoid the knowing all it is. So so
Speaker 1: I think I started with three minutes. Actually sitting in
Speaker 1: the closet and just like trying to be still and listen.
Speaker 1: This thing happens after a while. And I have friends
Speaker 1: who have all different kinds of little practices with that.
Speaker 1: Like I have a friend who just makes herself not
Speaker 1: turn on the radio in the car. I think that's
Speaker 1: a cool one. Yeah, walks are super important to me.
Speaker 1: Now I don't see my closet anymore, but going for
Speaker 1: a walk each day with no podcast, no, no nothing.
Speaker 1: It's amazing how all of my ideas come to me
Speaker 1: on walks. It's like my kids would say, you know,
Speaker 1: the shower, mom, It's like magic. I'm in the shower,
Speaker 1: and like, I have all of these ideas. It's just
Speaker 1: it's stillness. It's the only time, because waters pouring in
Speaker 1: your head that you're not logged into something like that.
Speaker 1: Those ideas are flowing all the time. We're just rejecting
Speaker 1: them by listening to other people's ideas constantly. So true.
Speaker 1: I have a rescue hound who I started walking six
Speaker 1: miles a day, and and now that's where I do
Speaker 1: all my best thinking. You know what I mean? Interesting,
Speaker 1: Like I I reread Untamed this week, but I processed
Speaker 1: it on the walk. You know, processing, we need processing time,
Speaker 1: all right, we just don't take that. Yeah, And I
Speaker 1: think there's something that the walking is a little bit
Speaker 1: less scary or something. For me, there's something about moving
Speaker 1: during it that makes it feel less intimidating. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: a little it's a little punished child Sibyl to be
Speaker 1: in the closet. Yeah, yeah, maybe that's what it is.
Speaker 1: I'm sick of that whole vibe of the closet alley
Speaker 1: as it were. Yes, you are very proudly kind of
Speaker 1: circles into the light, my friend, into the light circle.
Speaker 1: I'm got to end this podcast by saying my favorite
Speaker 1: part was reading Untamed and thinking, oh god, this this
Speaker 1: woman figured it out. She's really in love. You know.
Speaker 1: I like to think that I've got a good relationship going,
Speaker 1: but I feel like that if she her orgasms might
Speaker 1: be stronger than my alley. And then you get mad
Speaker 1: at Abby because in the middle of the day, she's
Speaker 1: sitting on the couch watching TV. But I was like, yes,
Speaker 1: that's exactly right. She's probably doing it right now. Ally,
Speaker 1: she's probably out there in the couch and she knows
Speaker 1: when I started podcast or something that she's got a
Speaker 1: good hour that she can watch a freaking vampire show.
Speaker 1: Or but that was so great. That was such a
Speaker 1: you know, I hate the word, but relatable little piece.
Speaker 1: You know, it was comforting to me. It was like, yes,
Speaker 1: authentic love has that too, you know what I mean?
Speaker 1: That's all of It's only a hundred percent of it,
Speaker 1: right Like, And I feel like I've talked about that
Speaker 1: a lot because because our the beginning of our love
Speaker 1: story was so intense and awesome and beautiful, and now
Speaker 1: we're like exactly the same everyone has ever been, like
Speaker 1: with our daily arguments, and our major argument is like
Speaker 1: am I too irritable or you too annoying? Yeah? Like
Speaker 1: that's what we can't figure out. Like for me, for
Speaker 1: me and George, it's wait a minute, am I the
Speaker 1: smart one and you're the idiot? Ali, I think that
Speaker 1: the world might know that you're a smart one? Okay,
Speaker 1: all right, I'll take it from you. Nobody who's as
Speaker 1: funny as you is not also brilliant. All right, Funny
Speaker 1: requires brilliant. But I will say one thing. When I
Speaker 1: closed Untamed, closed it, put it down, I thought, I
Speaker 1: think I'm in love with Abby. You do you? You
Speaker 1: paint such a great picture of her playing soccer, you know,
Speaker 1: with your daughter. I mean, she just she seems amazing.
Speaker 1: She is. She's the kindest person that I've ever met
Speaker 1: in my entire life and the most excited person, Like
Speaker 1: she's like a hot buddy elf. But that's so great.
Speaker 1: Everything is like magic. I didn't know what fun what.
Speaker 1: She's brought fun into my life as much as as
Speaker 1: much as one can enjoy. Yes, all right, hashtag Salmon
Speaker 1: moves Glenn and Doyle, thank you for talking to me.
Speaker 1: And oreos and English muffins always Oreos. English muffins get
Speaker 1: you out of a depression, but oreos will get you
Speaker 1: through sex that everything you need to do it. Thank you,
Speaker 1: thank you, thank you, thank you, Inky Ali. You know,
Speaker 1: I'm thinking about everybody who listened to this podcast, and
Speaker 1: I'm thinking how much we all strive for authentic love.
Speaker 1: And I think with Untamed Glennon takes us through her
Speaker 1: own journey of finding authentic love and helping us find
Speaker 1: our knowing and not shaking our snow globe and using
Speaker 1: some of her tools to obtain something that seemed unattainable.
Speaker 1: One of the things I love and I'm in awe
Speaker 1: about when it comes to Glennon Doyle is She's a
Speaker 1: kind of person that every book she writes you underline
Speaker 1: at least ten things a page. She could have an
Speaker 1: inspirational calendar for the next forty years. So after reading
Speaker 1: Untamed and Love Warrior, I pulled out a few of
Speaker 1: my favorites. Being human is not hard because you're doing
Speaker 1: it wrong. It's hard because you're doing it right. This
Speaker 1: life is mine alone, so I've stopped asking people for
Speaker 1: directions to places they've never been. The braver I am,
Speaker 1: the luckier I get. And my all time favorite, you
Speaker 1: are not crazy. You're a goddamn cheetah. She should start
Speaker 1: a T shirt company. She could sell millions of t
Speaker 1: shirts with these quotes. Thank you for listening to go
Speaker 1: ask Ali join me next week with guests psychotherapist Lori Gottlieb.
Speaker 1: We're laying down on the couch. Be sure to subscribe,
Speaker 1: rate and review the podcast, and follow me on social
Speaker 1: media on Twitter, Ali E Wentworth and on Instagram the
Speaker 1: Real Ali Wentworth And if you have questions or guests
Speaker 1: you'd like to hear from, I'd love to hear from you.
Speaker 1: Call or texted me at three to three four six
Speaker 1: three five six or email me Go Ask Ali podcast
Speaker 1: at gmail dot com. Go Ask Gali is a production
Speaker 1: of Shonda land Audio and partnership with I heart Radio.
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from Shondaland Audio, visit the I Heart
Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your
Speaker 1: favorite shows.