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Speaker 1: You're listening to Disinformed, a mini series from There Are

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Speaker 1: No Girls on the Internet. I'm Bridget Todd. If you're

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Speaker 1: anything like me, and sadly like most Americans, you've probably

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Speaker 1: encountered at least one me month Facebook pushing disinformation about COVID,

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Speaker 1: the election, or some other issue. This is not a coincidence.

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Speaker 1: Bad actors use easily accessible content on social media, like memes,

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Speaker 1: sometimes in spaces that are not explicitly political, to indoctrinate

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Speaker 1: people into believing false information. And it's pretty effective because

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Speaker 1: humor is naturally disarming. So if the battle of the

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Speaker 1: Internet is being waged in memes, currently in the forces

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Speaker 1: for good are losing. But what if there was engaging,

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Speaker 1: funny content that pushed media literacy instead of bogus, dangerous claims.

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Speaker 1: That's where twenty four year old Abbey Richards comes in.

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Speaker 1: Abby is a science communicator and a prolific TikToker who's

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Speaker 1: gone viral for making content that debunks disinformation and promotes

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Speaker 1: a much needed skill digital media literacy. Here's the taste.

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Speaker 1: What's the first train misinformation and disinformation? What innadorably naive question? Disinformation? Duh?

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Speaker 1: So what are you? I'm false information that's spread deliberately

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Speaker 1: to cause harm. Michael is to mislead the public. I'm

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Speaker 1: pure evil unlike misinformation. You can find Abbey's viral chart

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Speaker 1: breaking down conspiracy theories in the show description or a

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Speaker 1: thousand other places across the Internet, because it what megaviral.

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Speaker 1: Abbey's philosophy is that you don't need to be a

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Speaker 1: researcher or an academic to see the ways platforms can

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Speaker 1: spread dangerous, misleading content, and that we need resources that

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Speaker 1: are accessible and engaging so that everybody can be involved

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Speaker 1: in making the Internet a safer, better place. Hi, I'm

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Speaker 1: Abbey Richards. I am a science communicator who focuses on

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Speaker 1: climate change, disinformation, and conspiracy theories. I'm also a student.

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Speaker 1: So how do you think disinform ation played out in

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Speaker 1: the riots that we saw in DC earlier this month.

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Speaker 1: It's not like a one to one, right, It's not

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Speaker 1: like this person lied and now people are storming the capital.

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Speaker 1: It's it's been building up like this for years, and

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Speaker 1: it's it's built into our algorithms, it's built into like

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Speaker 1: the way that we're communicating, it's built into our our

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Speaker 1: news ecosystems. Like it's so complex, and it's been coming

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Speaker 1: like this for so long, and people who have studied

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Speaker 1: it have been saying that like this was inevitable. Um,

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Speaker 1: and I remember, like I don't I don't even like

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Speaker 1: professionally study it. I just talked to the experts and

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Speaker 1: then communicate it. And I was like kind of trying

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Speaker 1: to like shout about it this like the last few months,

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Speaker 1: and people are like, I don't know, Like it seems bad,

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Speaker 1: but uh, we'll be all right. Um, it's baked into

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Speaker 1: our systems that we use to get information that there is,

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Speaker 1: Like we don't have the media literacy that we need,

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Speaker 1: we don't have the digital literacy that we need, we

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Speaker 1: don't know the scientific literacy that we need. But like

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Speaker 1: all of those things together compounding with like bad actors

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Speaker 1: who want chaos, they want power, they want chaos, they

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Speaker 1: want to see polarization. Yeah, I mean you put that

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Speaker 1: so well. I do feel like so many researchers and

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Speaker 1: activists and organizers have been sounding the alarm that something

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Speaker 1: like this could happen for a really long time. Go

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Speaker 1: watch my videos from November, Like who could have seen

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Speaker 1: it coming? Like the entire community that was shouting about it,

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Speaker 1: Like who do you think, Oh, it's infuriating, because it's

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Speaker 1: it's not just the disinformation people, right, it's also the

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Speaker 1: extremism people, people who like study like extremist ideologies, and

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Speaker 1: the people who study the far right and fascism. They've

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Speaker 1: all been shouting for quite a long time. And then

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Speaker 1: it really took, like, you know, a bunch of just

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Speaker 1: angry people with with false worldviews storming the capital with

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Speaker 1: dangerous intent for finally people to be like, oh, maybe

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Speaker 1: there's a problem. Abby is all about being accessible. It's

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Speaker 1: one of the reasons why her videos about disinformation and

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Speaker 1: media literacy are so mega popular. Rather than publishing an

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Speaker 1: academic journals, she puts her easy to understand educational content

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Speaker 1: on TikTok or Her videos regularly get millions of views.

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Speaker 1: I got TikTok when Quarantine started and it was march um,

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Speaker 1: and I got addicted to it and started just kind

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Speaker 1: of like ship posting, just like whatever, I fucking whatever

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Speaker 1: I felt like. But at that point I had figured

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Speaker 1: out that you can communicate so much in such a

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Speaker 1: short period of time, and a TikTok, if it's done well,

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Speaker 1: like the power, it has to maybe not teach, you know,

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Speaker 1: an entire course is worth of information. But to plant

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Speaker 1: a seed in the brain and you know that person

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Speaker 1: now will remember this little fact or remember this concept

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Speaker 1: and then can go take that and look it up

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Speaker 1: or just like maybe think about it a little bit.

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Speaker 1: Like it has so much power to do that. Um

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Speaker 1: So I really really love the platform for that. So

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Speaker 1: how did you decide to use TikTok to make memes

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Speaker 1: about media literacy and disinformation? Well, it originally happened by accident.

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Speaker 1: It's just something that I always have cared about. In

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Speaker 1: the background, I did not know that much about disinformation,

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Speaker 1: Like it was something I knew a little bit about,

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Speaker 1: but not that much. And then having a platform, um,

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Speaker 1: I just kept getting weird comments, like weird stuff that

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Speaker 1: now I know is Q and on, but at the

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Speaker 1: time like they were just like spamming my comments section

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Speaker 1: and they didn't understand what's going on. And then I

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Speaker 1: made the chart that people, uh, they kind of liked that,

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Speaker 1: they liked it a bit, and um it. At the time,

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Speaker 1: I really would not have told you I had any

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Speaker 1: interest in continuing into like disinformation work, but I thought

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Speaker 1: it would be fun to continue breaking down my chart,

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Speaker 1: and as I did, that I just kind of got

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Speaker 1: further and further into the world of disinformation and and

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Speaker 1: misinformation and conspiracy theories in general, um and got linked

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Speaker 1: with experts and realized that there weren't any major people

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Speaker 1: like I did. I realized that I did not see

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Speaker 1: very many people doing the sort of communication that I

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Speaker 1: was looking for, So I just started doing that type

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Speaker 1: of communication. My background is a little bit similar to yours.

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Speaker 1: In my nine to five day job, I work on

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Speaker 1: issues like platform accountability and training folks to spot disinformation,

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Speaker 1: trying to make social media platforms curb disinformation on their platforms.

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Speaker 1: And you know, I didn't go to school for this.

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Speaker 1: I am an academic. I am not someone who has

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Speaker 1: studied this in an academic setting whatsoever. And when I

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Speaker 1: saw your TikTok, I realized we have this great need

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Speaker 1: for resources that are not just educational but also engaging

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Speaker 1: and fun and just easy to consume. And I definitely

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Speaker 1: I saw that there was a big void as far

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Speaker 1: as just like some lighthearted communication discussing this. And plus

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Speaker 1: I mean, I'm I'm getting my master's degree right now,

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Speaker 1: but like I will shoot on academia all day. Like

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Speaker 1: they get keep they keep their gates up, and like

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Speaker 1: they will use language that nobody understand. They don't understand it,

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Speaker 1: like like it's it's overly dense. It's very difficult to

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Speaker 1: get a big picture a lot of the times, Like

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Speaker 1: you can't read an article and just take away like

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Speaker 1: one big picture in the way that a TikTok in um.

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Speaker 1: Obviously nuance is so important, like I'm not trying to

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Speaker 1: like cancel academia, but there was no bridge from those

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Speaker 1: complex articles and big like you know, Twitter AI investigations

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Speaker 1: of like word usage and and the people who had

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Speaker 1: to like watch their family fall down the Q and

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Speaker 1: on rabbit hole, like there was no connection. Happy was

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Speaker 1: looking for funny, engaging content that debunked disinformation, but couldn't

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Speaker 1: find any, so she decided to start making it herself.

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Speaker 1: Working with the designer called Anti Conspiracy, Memore's Abby created

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Speaker 1: the Conspiracy TV Chart, a really great breakdown of all

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Speaker 1: different levels of conspiracy, which you can check out on

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Speaker 1: the show description at the bottom of the chart. It

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Speaker 1: starts with things that sound like conspiracies but are actually

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Speaker 1: grounded at events that actually happened, like the fact that

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Speaker 1: the FBI spied on John Lennon or that big tobacco

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Speaker 1: company needs lied about cigarettes causing cancer. Then moving up

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Speaker 1: the chart, the topics become progressively less grounded in reality

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Speaker 1: and veer into dangerous anti semitic, white supremacist territory, like

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Speaker 1: believing the furniture company Wayfair is sex trafficking children they

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Speaker 1: sold in cabinets online, that Bill Gates is microchipping people

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Speaker 1: with vaccines, or that Antifa started forest fires in California.

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Speaker 1: Her chart went megaviral and it was a really useful

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Speaker 1: tool to demonstrate how easy it is to go from

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Speaker 1: having some questions about something to believing something truly dangerous.

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Speaker 1: People have even adapted it to explain other kinds of

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Speaker 1: conspirator thinking, like the one that breaks down unfounded Star

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Speaker 1: Wars fandom speculations. So tell me about this chart. Where

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Speaker 1: did it come from? Oh my god. I was talking

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Speaker 1: to a boy on Tinder, and as all good origin

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Speaker 1: stories started, I was, yeah, we're tying on Tinder and

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Speaker 1: I was carrying the conversation no um, and I was like, so, like,

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Speaker 1: which conspiracy theory, like you had to believe in? One

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Speaker 1: would you believe in? And it took us to Um,

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Speaker 1: You're talking about all the different types of conspiracies, and

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Speaker 1: I was like, this is ridiculous, Like I want it

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Speaker 1: would be so fun to believe in lizard people and

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Speaker 1: like hollow Earth, but I know that they're anti Semitic.

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Speaker 1: I was like, so I can't. And also like there

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Speaker 1: needs to be some sort of like there needs to

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Speaker 1: be levels, There needs to be an acceptable place at

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Speaker 1: which at which you should stop look. But like they're

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Speaker 1: also needs to be just categorization. Um. And I drew

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Speaker 1: it and I sent it to my dad and I

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Speaker 1: send it like a couple of friends and they liked it,

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Speaker 1: and I posted it on TikTok and I had a

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Speaker 1: very small account at that point because I had just

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Speaker 1: started a new one. And it's like slowly kind of

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Speaker 1: blew up there. Yeah, I saw it everywhere. Even this morning.

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Speaker 1: Somebody showed me a Star Wars adaptation of your chart. Someone, Yes,

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Speaker 1: they changed it to fit Star our Wars like fandom beliefs,

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Speaker 1: I think is what it is. And it's gorgeous. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: they did a nice job. You know. Something that I

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Speaker 1: love about your chart is that it starts with these

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Speaker 1: things that actually are grounded in reality, things that we

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Speaker 1: know actually did happen, like big tobacco lying about cigarettes

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Speaker 1: causing cancer, or the n Essay spying on American citizens,

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Speaker 1: or the Tuskee experiments. You know, these are situations where

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Speaker 1: people with power actually did abuse that power and a

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Speaker 1: lie to us. So it's not like people, especially people

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Speaker 1: who are already marginalized, don't have a reason to be skeptical.

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Speaker 1: But you know, just because powerful people lie and abuse

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Speaker 1: that power does not give you license to just believe

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Speaker 1: any conspiracy theory that's out there on the internet. Why

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Speaker 1: was it important to you to include things that actually

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Speaker 1: happened in your chart. First of all, they did happen.

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Speaker 1: I'm not trying to like say that all conspiracies as

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Speaker 1: a whole are completely impossible. The conspiracies are a real

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Speaker 1: type of crime. Conspiracy theories are usually posterous. Nobody was

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Speaker 1: looking at Tuskegee and thinking, like, I bet it's a

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Speaker 1: secret group underground where like drinking blood. Like No, like,

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Speaker 1: people with power abuse their power all the time, and

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Speaker 1: that should be recognized and those like those fears, those

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Speaker 1: anxieties about that happening are super super valid um And

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Speaker 1: I think that that's a really good way to show off,

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Speaker 1: like what it actually looks like when people lie and

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Speaker 1: people abuse their power, versus what it looks like when

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Speaker 1: you imagine your worst enemy of in a weird, suspiciously

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Speaker 1: evil super group of Jews like, those are very different images.

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Speaker 1: While California was being ravaged by wildfires, Marjorie Taylor Green Now,

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Speaker 1: a Georgia congressional representative, said in a now deleted Facebook

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Speaker 1: both at the cause could have been laser beams from

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Speaker 1: space controlled by the Rothchild International Banking Firm. Now, this

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Speaker 1: is obviously not true, and it's so ridiculous, but it's

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Speaker 1: also really messed up. It's an anti Semitic lie. People

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Speaker 1: have been telling about Jewish people since the nineteenth century

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Speaker 1: that they're somehow controlling the banks, on the weather and

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Speaker 1: not to be trusted. And it's also a key plank

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Speaker 1: of disinformation. Disinformation relies on the worst stereotypes and biases

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Speaker 1: about marginalized people, and we need to recognize how often

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Speaker 1: these same marginalized people become the scapegoat who's to blame

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Speaker 1: for all life sills, saying Jewish people control the banks,

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Speaker 1: or blaming wildfires on Black Lives Matter activists. These things

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Speaker 1: aren't just dangerous because they're untrue, anti semitic and racist.

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Speaker 1: They're also dangerous because they distract us from the real problems. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's there. That's their currency. It's their currency. It's like

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Speaker 1: they're like, oh, like do you feel do you feel nervous?

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Speaker 1: Do you feel anxious? Do you feel like out of control?

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Speaker 1: Like there's something you can't answer? Man, Like, wouldn't it

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Speaker 1: be so great if you had a scapegoat right now?

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Speaker 1: Like you know, maybe our group they didn't understand, Like

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Speaker 1: it's they're there to answer a question. They're the most

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Speaker 1: simple answer to a question. Um, so yes, they very

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Speaker 1: much will consistently find the group that is the other

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Speaker 1: that is that is to blame. Let's take a quick

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Speaker 1: break and back. So before I worked on these kinds

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Speaker 1: of issues, I might have called myself like a casual

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Speaker 1: appreciator of conspiracy theories. I enjoyed a late night Wikipedia

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Speaker 1: rabbit hole. You know, I liked reading about how maybe

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Speaker 1: John but A. Ramsey wasn't actually dead, that she grew

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Speaker 1: up to be Katie Perry. I could get behind all

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Speaker 1: of that. And I think I thought of myself as

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Speaker 1: kind of appreciating conspiracy theories kind of ironically. And you know,

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Speaker 1: with your work in conspiracy theory. You seem like someone

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Speaker 1: who is at really sort of interested in conspiracy theories,

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Speaker 1: how they spread, why people get involved in them, And

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Speaker 1: I wonder do you think people get indoctrinated by conspiracy

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Speaker 1: theory by just sort of being interested in them and

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Speaker 1: before they know what they're actually true believers. Oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think in a lot of ways, it's very similar

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Speaker 1: to like the way we see like these all right

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Speaker 1: boys on four Chan experimenting with um, like testing using

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Speaker 1: hateful language, and then they'll be like, I'm joking, UM,

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Speaker 1: And I think there's a couple of things going on there. UM.

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Speaker 1: One would be you're testing what it when when they

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Speaker 1: do it? When they do when they say something racist

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Speaker 1: or sexist or anti semitic um or hateful in general, um,

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Speaker 1: and then they say that they're joking. That they're really

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Speaker 1: doing in a lot of ways is seeing what it

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Speaker 1: sounds like to say it. UM. It's a test, like

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Speaker 1: they can do it in a space where let's see

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Speaker 1: how the reaction is, like let's gauge what this feels

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Speaker 1: like for me to say this. UM. I would think

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Speaker 1: conspiracy kind of just like ha ha, it's ironic, like

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Speaker 1: depending on the person like, for some people, it might

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Speaker 1: truly just be ironic and they can sit there. For

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Speaker 1: other people it might not be like I certainly cannot

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Speaker 1: make that call um. But the other thing to take

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Speaker 1: into account, and this is especially important with misinformation disinformation,

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Speaker 1: is something called the illusory truth effect, which is essentially

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Speaker 1: that the more you see something, the more your brain

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Speaker 1: thinks it's true. And that is not avoidable with any

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Speaker 1: amount of education. Like that is your brain because what

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Speaker 1: you see is like and what information you take in

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Speaker 1: construct your reality. So if you continue to see false

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Speaker 1: information and you continue to like read conspiracies like that

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Speaker 1: could certain inly have an effect on on how you

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Speaker 1: interpret the world. Priming people to understand the kind of

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Speaker 1: disinformation they might encounter is one of the best ways

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Speaker 1: to inoculate them from its impact. So it's critical that

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Speaker 1: people understand media literacy and take responsibility for understanding the

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Speaker 1: kind of content they consume online. But we can't discount

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Speaker 1: that tech leaders have allowed dangerous falsehoods, extremest content, and

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Speaker 1: radicalization to spread on their platforms, and because of the

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Speaker 1: nature of algorithms, forever prioritizing content that gets lots of

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Speaker 1: clicks and impressions, inflammatory or misleading content thrives on social

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Speaker 1: media if companies don't enforce moderation policies. Oh my god,

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Speaker 1: social media companies have so much work to do. I

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Speaker 1: have so much work to do. Like I could show

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Speaker 1: up here just like a list of like they need

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Speaker 1: you to do this and this and this, and like,

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Speaker 1: oh god, they're they're a mess. Um. And I really

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Speaker 1: hope that collectively people are who are holding them accountable

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Speaker 1: for the position that we are in right now as

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Speaker 1: a country, because they are very a large part of

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Speaker 1: the problem. What other steps would you like to see

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Speaker 1: platforms due to crack down on disinformation and disinformation? I

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Speaker 1: want to see people who are people in accounts that

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Speaker 1: are spreading disinformation, UM, like we have like you know,

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Speaker 1: we have disinformation super spreaders, the people who are spreading

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Speaker 1: the most of it, like take them down, d platform them,

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Speaker 1: which they've started doing, you know, after the insurrection. But

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Speaker 1: I want to stress it took an insurrection, but um,

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Speaker 1: they could be doing a lot more to make sure

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Speaker 1: that they are pushing good information UM first and prioritizing

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Speaker 1: the quality of that information over um the watch time

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Speaker 1: of the user. UH. And they currently are not because

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Speaker 1: they're they're in incentivized by how much money they can

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Speaker 1: make on ad revenue, um, but that would be huge.

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Speaker 1: They need to be pushing accounts that are uh promoting

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Speaker 1: media literacy, talking about disinformation, educating. They should be pushing

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Speaker 1: all of those um. And then for for more, you're

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Speaker 1: going to have to go to people who are much

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Speaker 1: smarter than me. The problem goes further than individual platforms.

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Speaker 1: We need a radical reimagining of how we think about

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Speaker 1: what platforms can be. Well, would it looked like to

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Speaker 1: have a social media platform that didn't just measure success

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Speaker 1: by scale or clicks or how much time we all

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Speaker 1: spent with our faces at a screen. What would it

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Speaker 1: look like the center actual people or care or empathy.

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Speaker 1: I would absolutely love to see like a people first,

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Speaker 1: like ethical uh social media company come up. But I

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Speaker 1: am a little bit too pessimistic at the moment. It's

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Speaker 1: it's not looking great, um Like I want someone to

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Speaker 1: come forward with tons of money to create this platform

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Speaker 1: that will be like our perfect socialist platform. That's another

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Speaker 1: question I have for you, and it's a kind of

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Speaker 1: a tough one for me. You know, I live in

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Speaker 1: d C. So when the attacks on the Capitol happened.

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Speaker 1: They were not just attacks on democracy, they were attacks

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Speaker 1: on my community in my town, my city. And I

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Speaker 1: really kind of struggled with this duality of one wanting

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Speaker 1: the people that storm the capital to face all the

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Speaker 1: repercussions that they deserve and they have coming to them,

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Speaker 1: and to really seeing the way that they have been

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Speaker 1: misled a lot of times for profit. You know, moneyed

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Speaker 1: social media platforms made even more money by misleading them.

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Speaker 1: So I really struggled with finding a balance between wanting

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Speaker 1: these people to be fully held accountable and acknowledging the powerful, wealthy,

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Speaker 1: moneyed forces at play that lied to them and got

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Speaker 1: us here. You know, how can we hold these two

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Speaker 1: realities at the same time. Oh, It's tough. That's a

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Speaker 1: tough one. I'm glad that you're like definitely there with

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Speaker 1: like doing both, because I've seen a lot of people

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Speaker 1: who aren't ready to have the discussion at all that

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Speaker 1: these people have been manipulated. Um, and that's really it's

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Speaker 1: it's difficult because it's a hard discussion to have, right, Like,

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Speaker 1: we're angry for me. I think like a lot of

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Speaker 1: them are victims of this misinformation. They're essentially pawns in

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Speaker 1: like a much bigger game that does not excuse their actions,

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Speaker 1: like they still if you if you break the law,

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Speaker 1: like you still have to pay those consequences. Um. But

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Speaker 1: as a society, I think focusing on the narrative of

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Speaker 1: like these specific people are bad is a waste of

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Speaker 1: time because it's like it's a distraction. It's not focusing

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Speaker 1: on the problem. Um. Or do I want to hang

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Speaker 1: out with them? No, Like absolutely not. I'm I'm like,

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Speaker 1: if they're arrest still that's probably for the best. Like,

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Speaker 1: that's good. But I think that we have a much

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Speaker 1: bigger problem um to be discussing more so than just

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Speaker 1: individuals here more after a quick break, let's get right

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Speaker 1: back into it. It can be really tough in the

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Speaker 1: aftermath of everything that happened at the capital to really

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Speaker 1: remember that it is not just about these individual people

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Speaker 1: that storm the capital, but it is really about larger

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Speaker 1: systems and larger forces at play, and having those conversations

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Speaker 1: is really critical. If every person who physically stormed the

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Speaker 1: capital got locked up, we would still have these problems

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Speaker 1: to contend with in our society about how we got

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Speaker 1: there in the first place. Yeah, your information constructs your reality.

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Speaker 1: If you're getting false information. Your reality is false when

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Speaker 1: you add in like Q and On specifically, now we

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Speaker 1: have an apocalyptic internet religion who believes when they storm

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Speaker 1: that capital that the storm will happen in the apocalypse.

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Speaker 1: It's it's apocalyptic like they don't they did not necessarily

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Speaker 1: think about what would happen. Um Again, not an excuse

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Speaker 1: for their actions, but something that like makes it a

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Speaker 1: little bit easier, I think to try and think about

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Speaker 1: the big picture. So I know somebody who is involved

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Speaker 1: in Q and On her flavor of Quan, and it's

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Speaker 1: definitely the kind of save the children heavy scare quotes

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Speaker 1: around that vibe where she genuinely believes that this kind

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Speaker 1: of thinking is in opposition to this, you know, network

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Speaker 1: of evil people who are exploiting and abusing children. Obviously

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Speaker 1: that is untrue, but that is what she clearly believes,

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Speaker 1: and so I think for her, you know, there's not

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Speaker 1: really a way to say this, for I don't sound

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Speaker 1: like an asshole, but she's not someone who I would

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Speaker 1: describe as having a lot in her life to make

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Speaker 1: her life feel meaningfully full, and seeing of it from

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Speaker 1: her perspective, I can imagine that when she posts these

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Speaker 1: things about like not believing the media and not being

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Speaker 1: a sheep and you know, not just believing what they

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Speaker 1: say on CNN. She's probably being validated. She probably feels

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Speaker 1: like people are agreeing with her. When people don't agree

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Speaker 1: with her, she probably thinks she probably feels that probably

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Speaker 1: makes her to feel even more validated. And so I

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Speaker 1: feel like one aspect of this that we don't often

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Speaker 1: talk about is that for a lot of these people

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Speaker 1: almost feel like it offers a kind of community where

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Speaker 1: there was not community for them before. And for her,

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Speaker 1: I do feel like it's given her life a new

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Speaker 1: kind of meaning that it didn't have before. Unfortunately, that

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Speaker 1: that that cause and that meeting just happens to be

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Speaker 1: disgusting and abhorrent and dangerous. Yeah, not the best choice.

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Speaker 1: Could have been better? Uh yeah, No, I mean, what,

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Speaker 1: like you've just nailed it Like that is one of

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Speaker 1: that is essentially how most people get into this. It's

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Speaker 1: it's if you don't necessarily have like a strong sense

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Speaker 1: of self or you're especially if you're in the middle

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Speaker 1: of a crisis. Right, So a lot of people who

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Speaker 1: fall into conspiracy thinking in general and like go down

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Speaker 1: the rabbit hole that will happen when they're at a

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Speaker 1: crisis point, or when there's been a dramatic shift in

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Speaker 1: their life. I don't know, maybe a global pandemic, Like

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Speaker 1: I don't know, we're just we're just naming some um.

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Speaker 1: And which also means that, yes, they go in there

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Speaker 1: for the sense of community. Yes, they're going in there

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Speaker 1: because they feel smart. Right. It's a flattering experience to

415
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Speaker 1: believe that you're in on something that nobody else knows about,

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Speaker 1: especially with something like save the Children. It just gave

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Speaker 1: like all the moms, just all of them, something to do,

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Speaker 1: like something to care about, something to focus on, especially

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Speaker 1: with COVID going on, right, like the world scary and

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Speaker 1: now like here's something very specific that you can do

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Speaker 1: to fix the world. Um, never mind the fact that

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Speaker 1: it's making it worse and everybody is begging you to stop. Everybody,

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Speaker 1: everybody in the in the in the trafficking world is

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Speaker 1: begging you to stop. Um. But yeah, it gives you

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Speaker 1: that sense of purpose, which is why if you're trying

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Speaker 1: to help somebody get out, um, one of the best

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Speaker 1: things you can do is try and help them rEFInd

428
00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:41,879
Speaker 1: their purpose outside of that narrative. Yeah, I mean another

429
00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:44,840
Speaker 1: good point there is that people who do anti sex

430
00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:47,960
Speaker 1: trafficking work universally, they talk about how Q and on

431
00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:50,280
Speaker 1: and save the children, all that stuff is making their

432
00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:53,680
Speaker 1: jobs that much harder. So if you actually genuinely cared

433
00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:56,879
Speaker 1: about protecting children, getting involved in Q and on and

434
00:26:56,920 --> 00:26:59,720
Speaker 1: this kind of stuff is actually doing the opposite of that,

435
00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:02,000
Speaker 1: because you're making the jobs of people who actually prevent

436
00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:05,119
Speaker 1: that kind of thing that much harder. There are ways

437
00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:07,199
Speaker 1: to be active in that work, but choosing to do

438
00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:10,400
Speaker 1: so in a way where you're suggesting that it's more

439
00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:14,800
Speaker 1: likely that there's this huge global network of people drinking

440
00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:18,560
Speaker 1: blood and shipping babies overseas through websites and all of that,

441
00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:20,680
Speaker 1: as opposed to the fact that children are more likely

442
00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:23,000
Speaker 1: to be exploited by someone they know, a family member.

443
00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:25,639
Speaker 1: It just denies reality and service of focusing on this

444
00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:29,240
Speaker 1: horrible fantasy they've created. Yeah, because it's it's a story,

445
00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:33,440
Speaker 1: it's a game, like they it's it's so much more

446
00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:38,000
Speaker 1: fun right to be like, oh, yeah, no, they're sending

447
00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:42,280
Speaker 1: the children around in cabinets than it is to be like, yeah,

448
00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:45,119
Speaker 1: you're statistically more likely to be abused in your house

449
00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:51,639
Speaker 1: than anywhere else, Like that's a way better evil to

450
00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:55,000
Speaker 1: try and cope with of like our way easier evil.

451
00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:58,000
Speaker 1: It's like, oh, it's not it's not the people I

452
00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:03,639
Speaker 1: know and like you know, years of trauma and abuse

453
00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:11,000
Speaker 1: cycles carrying out and like an oppressive, heteronormative society and

454
00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:15,959
Speaker 1: like a church that like that, Like it's also heteronormative

455
00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:18,800
Speaker 1: and oppressive and like you know all of these things

456
00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:23,840
Speaker 1: or it could be them. Yeah, I mean, who wants

457
00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:26,160
Speaker 1: to read a bunch of boring asked books about unpacking

458
00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:28,440
Speaker 1: your trauma or like go to therapy when you can

459
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:31,240
Speaker 1: just blame the Jews or the blacks of the gays.

460
00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:35,240
Speaker 1: Oh it's easier, Like it's just ah, Like why would

461
00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:41,760
Speaker 1: you look at the intersectional complex like narrative of reality

462
00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:45,200
Speaker 1: when it could be a nightmare? So what are some

463
00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:46,960
Speaker 1: other ways to help folks off board off of this

464
00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:52,440
Speaker 1: kind of ideology? Oh? Boy, right now there's a lot

465
00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:55,840
Speaker 1: of people asking that, um, and like there's there's certain

466
00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:58,240
Speaker 1: things that we do know, right, Like there's ways to

467
00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:03,200
Speaker 1: talk to them, Um, definitely, like as best as you

468
00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:07,720
Speaker 1: possibly can, like stay compassionate and stay respectful. I mean

469
00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:09,640
Speaker 1: you can be honest and tell them whether or not

470
00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:11,360
Speaker 1: you believe in something, you don't have to pretend to

471
00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:15,560
Speaker 1: believe in something. But insulting them, mocking them is like

472
00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:18,760
Speaker 1: not going to help, um, and it'll just like push

473
00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:22,640
Speaker 1: them further into their belief and into their community, who

474
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:28,640
Speaker 1: will then just heighten their beliefs. Um. So figure out

475
00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:31,560
Speaker 1: what they believe in, figure out what your common ground is.

476
00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:33,760
Speaker 1: When you're talking to them, be like all right, so,

477
00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:37,840
Speaker 1: like do we agree that COVID exists? Like, let's start

478
00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:42,040
Speaker 1: there and work our way either backwards or forwards. Um.

479
00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:46,040
Speaker 1: And you know, if if they're really like gone, like

480
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:49,520
Speaker 1: to help them find their way back by helping them

481
00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:53,400
Speaker 1: figure out who they are, you know, outside of this

482
00:29:54,640 --> 00:30:02,000
Speaker 1: religion that they've been scooped into. Um. Do they have hobbies?

483
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:08,959
Speaker 1: Do they have kids that they care about? Like? What what? What?

484
00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:11,600
Speaker 1: What are they passionate about? Who are they at their core?

485
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:15,280
Speaker 1: What are their goals? What are their desires those sorts

486
00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:18,920
Speaker 1: of things or that's the kind of thinking that helps

487
00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:24,400
Speaker 1: someone get out of that constant panic of uh conspiracies.

488
00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:27,200
Speaker 1: That's really useful. You know. Another thing I love about

489
00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:29,560
Speaker 1: your work is that you talk about the need to

490
00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:32,920
Speaker 1: start media literacy early with with children. When do you

491
00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:34,760
Speaker 1: think it's too early to start talking to kids about

492
00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:38,880
Speaker 1: media literacy. Kids today like completely understand how to how

493
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:42,520
Speaker 1: to navigate the internet, um, and what they don't understand

494
00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:46,360
Speaker 1: necessarily to go along with that is what a good sources. Like,

495
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:50,520
Speaker 1: I think media literacy should be taught throughout school as

496
00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:53,880
Speaker 1: you age at the age appropriate level. You know, you

497
00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:56,120
Speaker 1: don't have to be like to a five year old

498
00:30:56,360 --> 00:31:00,760
Speaker 1: like so Russian intelligence. Yeah, you're talking to a five

499
00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:03,160
Speaker 1: year old about a senate in Koree. You're like, so

500
00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:06,960
Speaker 1: this is this is a troll? Uh, You're like, here,

501
00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:13,480
Speaker 1: have you seen four chan? Dude? You look at that. No,

502
00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:16,440
Speaker 1: I'm not trying to traumatize children, but like, I think,

503
00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:20,280
Speaker 1: like media literacy in general should just be like a

504
00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:25,600
Speaker 1: a mandatory skill for people in this world, more so

505
00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:30,160
Speaker 1: than memorizing something ever for a test, right, Like, it's

506
00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:33,640
Speaker 1: so much more important that we're teaching kids how to

507
00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:39,400
Speaker 1: navigate the internet safely and get genuine, like helpful information.

508
00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:42,440
Speaker 1: Then it is that we're like wasting their time having

509
00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:46,720
Speaker 1: them memorize things that they will never need to know. Yeah, listen,

510
00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:48,560
Speaker 1: I mean I remember being in school and doing a

511
00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:51,760
Speaker 1: whole unit on square dancing. I kind of feel like

512
00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:53,360
Speaker 1: if I could go back in time, I would like

513
00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:55,400
Speaker 1: to learn something that would actually stick with me and

514
00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:58,640
Speaker 1: be applicable for my actual life, like media literacy. Maybe

515
00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:01,960
Speaker 1: save the square dancing. What about like a better dance

516
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:04,800
Speaker 1: than square dancing? I just want to throw that out there.

517
00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:11,720
Speaker 1: Anything else, like teach me to foxtrot. Now, debunking disinformation

518
00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:14,360
Speaker 1: is not the only thing. Abby uses her TikTok for it.

519
00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:17,239
Speaker 1: She's also studied climate in the environment, which led her

520
00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:20,040
Speaker 1: to initially going viral on the platform for her videos

521
00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:23,360
Speaker 1: about how much she hates golf. Kind of by accident.

522
00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:26,280
Speaker 1: Here she is talking about her deep hatred for golf

523
00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:29,600
Speaker 1: while cooking. I'm running for president. I'm going to be

524
00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:32,160
Speaker 1: a single issue candidate. When I become president, I will

525
00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:35,720
Speaker 1: make golf illegal. All golf courses will become public parts,

526
00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:38,800
Speaker 1: All country clubs will become low income housing. We take

527
00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:41,480
Speaker 1: all the water that we would have used to water

528
00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:43,600
Speaker 1: the golf courses and we drink it. Now we're like

529
00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:45,960
Speaker 1: the best hydrated country on the planet. We all have

530
00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:53,720
Speaker 1: gorgeous skin, and anyone caught golfing gets eaten. Are you

531
00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:58,080
Speaker 1: still here? Just making a salad? Nothing crazy, just a seaser.

532
00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:04,200
Speaker 1: It's just gonna put the rich on top. So you

533
00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:07,000
Speaker 1: came to prominence on TikTok for your videos about how

534
00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:09,520
Speaker 1: much you hate golf. How did these videos come to be?

535
00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:15,360
Speaker 1: I just hate it, dude, I hate golf. I okay, okay,

536
00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:19,960
Speaker 1: um I was it was. It was like quarantine still,

537
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:22,520
Speaker 1: like pretty early days, like you know when it like

538
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:27,680
Speaker 1: smells like nostalgia and you're like, oh, early quarantine like then. Um.

539
00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:30,920
Speaker 1: And I was on a run because I was still

540
00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:36,160
Speaker 1: convinced I could do that, and I um was running

541
00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:38,800
Speaker 1: through a golf course and I was not supposed to.

542
00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:41,560
Speaker 1: It was like no trespassing up everywhere. And I was like,

543
00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:43,920
Speaker 1: this is so stupid. I hate golf like I did

544
00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:47,320
Speaker 1: my undergrad in environmental science and I hated golf then too,

545
00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:49,280
Speaker 1: And I was like, this is just such a waste

546
00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:53,520
Speaker 1: of everything and just symbolizes like everything that's wrong with

547
00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:58,600
Speaker 1: the world. And I had like no following at the time,

548
00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:00,240
Speaker 1: and I went home and I was like, don't know,

549
00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:02,880
Speaker 1: I'll just like post this video of me chopping lettuce

550
00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:05,040
Speaker 1: talking about how I'm gonna run for president to make

551
00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:08,680
Speaker 1: golf illegal and that anyone who plays golf gets eaten.

552
00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:14,640
Speaker 1: I think that that is a fair punishment. I've never

553
00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:16,759
Speaker 1: really thought about the environmental impact of golf. Can you

554
00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:19,839
Speaker 1: tell me more about this? Yeah, definitely. I mean they

555
00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:23,200
Speaker 1: are wasteful in their space, right, Like we've we've all

556
00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:27,000
Speaker 1: thought about how it could be housing, it could be farmland,

557
00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:30,000
Speaker 1: it could just be a park. Um. But they're also

558
00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:36,520
Speaker 1: using tremendous amounts of water, especially in like desert states right, Like,

559
00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:40,319
Speaker 1: like the amount of water in California or Arizona or

560
00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:44,600
Speaker 1: Nevada that is being used to water golf courses is ridiculous.

561
00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:49,160
Speaker 1: There's a common misconception that golf, there's a common misconception

562
00:34:49,160 --> 00:34:51,759
Speaker 1: that's the golf is to be in nature. Uh, And

563
00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:55,440
Speaker 1: that's very much not true, right. It's it's very manufactured.

564
00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:58,000
Speaker 1: It's just like a giant board game that you drive

565
00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:04,960
Speaker 1: across and all like it's all perfectly turfed and everything

566
00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:10,080
Speaker 1: has to match their like rich person aesthetic. Um. And

567
00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:14,000
Speaker 1: to do that, not only are you dumping tons of

568
00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:17,480
Speaker 1: water on there and constantly irrigating it, but you're like

569
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:23,160
Speaker 1: dumping tons of pesticides and fertilizers on um, things that

570
00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:26,719
Speaker 1: are very much required for growing food, but also have

571
00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:31,320
Speaker 1: consequences environmentally, So, uh, they're gonna run off. They're not

572
00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:33,439
Speaker 1: going to stay on that grass. They're gonna run off

573
00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:38,280
Speaker 1: into water sources. They're going to run off into other ecosystems.

574
00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:42,120
Speaker 1: The fertilizers in particular, UM will run off into bodies

575
00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:45,920
Speaker 1: of water and cause utification, which is what leads to

576
00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:48,920
Speaker 1: like ocean dead zones and what can like lead. Well,

577
00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:51,279
Speaker 1: basically you get like a big algae bloom and then

578
00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:57,920
Speaker 1: you get a dead zone. UM, and uh yeah, I

579
00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:01,440
Speaker 1: just think that I really eat them. Okay, well, let

580
00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:03,759
Speaker 1: me ask you this. You've got a magic wand you

581
00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:07,600
Speaker 1: can get rid of one thing, disinformation or goth. Which

582
00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:11,000
Speaker 1: one are you going with. I'm not associo have obviously,

583
00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:17,880
Speaker 1: I'm going with disinformation, Like, oh my god, this girl

584
00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:23,520
Speaker 1: had the opportunity to fix the world, but she was

585
00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:29,120
Speaker 1: like no, getting rid of the fake sport. Like I

586
00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:31,279
Speaker 1: was just curious, That's what I thought. What we're gonna say,

587
00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:34,000
Speaker 1: I had a feeling. I'm glad you think so highly

588
00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:38,760
Speaker 1: of me. So what are you working on debunking next?

589
00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:41,960
Speaker 1: I'm still breaking down TikTok, right, or breaking down Q

590
00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:45,000
Speaker 1: and on. So if people are interested in that, I

591
00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:49,960
Speaker 1: am doing a several parts series that is explaining Q

592
00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:53,879
Speaker 1: and on to the common person, to the normy if

593
00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:57,520
Speaker 1: you will. That is informed by experts in the field.

594
00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:00,279
Speaker 1: Um so if that's something that they're interesting, did in

595
00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:06,080
Speaker 1: that is on all of my platforms. My TikTok is topology. Uh,

596
00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:08,640
Speaker 1: my Instagram is A B s R A B B

597
00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:11,400
Speaker 1: I E s R. And my Twitter is Abby A

598
00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:13,520
Speaker 1: s R A B B I E A s R.

599
00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:16,040
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for being here today. Abby. You

600
00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:18,880
Speaker 1: know I spend so much time talking about pretty dark

601
00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:23,200
Speaker 1: ship conspiracy, cults and disinformation and all of this dark

602
00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:25,360
Speaker 1: heavy stuff on the internet, but you bring such a

603
00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:28,359
Speaker 1: lightness and accessibility and humor to this work. So really

604
00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:33,879
Speaker 1: thank you for what you're doing. Thanks. I'm trying, but yeah, yeah,

605
00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:37,839
Speaker 1: it definitely gets dark sometimes, so it's better to just

606
00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:41,040
Speaker 1: like say it with a big grin on your face

607
00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:50,560
Speaker 1: and people are like, alrighty. Then if you enjoyed this podcast,

608
00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:57,560
Speaker 1: please help us grow by subscribing. Got a story about

609
00:37:57,560 --> 00:37:59,480
Speaker 1: an interesting thing in tech, or just want to say hi.

610
00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:01,720
Speaker 1: We love to hear from you at Hello at tango

611
00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:04,440
Speaker 1: dot com. Dis Informed brought to you by There are

612
00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:06,520
Speaker 1: No Girls on the Internet. It's a production of I

613
00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:10,360
Speaker 1: Heart Radio and Unbossed Creative Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer.

614
00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:14,320
Speaker 1: Tory Harrison is our supervising producer and engineer. Michael Lamtto

615
00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:17,800
Speaker 1: is our contributing producer. I'm your host Bridget Tod. For

616
00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:20,760
Speaker 1: more great podcasts, check out the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcast,

617
00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:22,120
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts.