Speaker 1: Of the law and order franchises, SVU is considered especially watchable.
Speaker 2: We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the
Speaker 2: vicious felonies.
Speaker 3: These episodes are based on. These are our stories.
Speaker 1: Done done, Hello, and welcome to That's Messed Up NSVU podcast.
Speaker 3: I'm Kara Klank and I'm Liza Traeger.
Speaker 2: And every week we talk about an episode of SVU,
Speaker 2: the true crime it's based on. And then we have
Speaker 2: a guest from the episode, and now we gab, we
Speaker 2: catch up, we chit chat. Obviously, the top of my
Speaker 2: mind is Melissa McCarthy outside of a Wiener Schnitzel getting
Speaker 2: hawks from murshahrt.
Speaker 3: Rallying, rallying support for mrsha Hard today. I didn't even
Speaker 3: know they were friends.
Speaker 2: This is like a whole new level of select friendship
Speaker 2: I needed to know about.
Speaker 3: And we need to get Melissa on the on SVU.
Speaker 2: Yes, if they're good friends, why hasn't she been on
Speaker 2: sv yet?
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 1: That's a really great question because I feel like a
Speaker 1: lot of her good friends have been on it.
Speaker 2: Get her on it, she would be an amazing criminal. Yes,
Speaker 2: she's never gotten Hillary Swank on it either. Yeah, but
Speaker 2: I think Hillary doesn't want to do it. Hillary doesn't work.
Speaker 2: When was the last time she worked?
Speaker 1: No, But Melissa McCarthy is that perfect example of like
Speaker 1: this sweet goofball and like it would be so funny
Speaker 1: to see her as like a killer or like a
Speaker 1: psycho mom or something.
Speaker 2: We've seen her as a criminal, but in a chill way. Yeah,
Speaker 2: in that forgery movie, I've watched it on a plane.
Speaker 1: Can you ever forgive me? Which I love? Which are
Speaker 1: our friend's sister directed?
Speaker 3: Really? Yeah, Emily Hiller's sister directed that. I didn't know
Speaker 3: she directed that one. She is busy. Yeah. You know
Speaker 3: what is cool? All those Emmy.
Speaker 2: Nominations came out, and I know so many people nominated
Speaker 2: for Emmy.
Speaker 3: No, I'm just like, what am I not in Hollywood?
Speaker 2: I just can'ot believe there's so many talented friends everywhere.
Speaker 1: Yeah, congratulations to all of our pals who've been nominated
Speaker 1: for Emmys. I want Nicole Bayer to win an Emmy.
Speaker 1: It just means RuPaul won't get an Emmy. But RuPaul
Speaker 1: has so many Emmys, So just give Nicole Bayer a
Speaker 1: fucking Emmy. If you're in the Academy listening and RuPaul
Speaker 1: would be happy for Nicole. I don't think RuPaul would
Speaker 1: be like, fuck that bitch, let's sliter through. I think
Speaker 1: you would be like, hell yeah, my.
Speaker 2: Girl, Yeah exactly because that video you posted of her
Speaker 2: in the wheelchair with a boot on her leg being
Speaker 2: wheeled around wipe out was that deserves an Emmy and
Speaker 2: it's I.
Speaker 3: Took many of those.
Speaker 1: I took like four of those on different days and
Speaker 1: was like, I'm going to make these into a montage
Speaker 1: for you, and I just never did it.
Speaker 2: Oh, that would be too tough. But yeah, Bowen Yang
Speaker 2: is that iceberg. He's got to win being the iceberg
Speaker 2: from Titanic.
Speaker 3: That's that's goo. Yeah.
Speaker 1: There's like also, yeah, people are nominated for like little
Speaker 1: categories that like you know, performing in a short or
Speaker 1: like in other stuff too. It's just a lot of
Speaker 1: people that are in our enter and secondary circles.
Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe I can get myself oh and Hacks her
Speaker 2: favorite show, but maybe I can get to an after party.
Speaker 3: That'll be the goal.
Speaker 1: A comic last night at my show was like safe space,
Speaker 1: and I was like sure, because you know, I love
Speaker 1: to talk shit. She was like, I don't like Hacks
Speaker 1: and I was like, I can't.
Speaker 3: Talk to you about this. I'm sorry, Like, Hacks is
Speaker 3: basically to me a perfect show.
Speaker 2: Wait, you can bleep her? Who was it? Bleep the name?
Speaker 2: Let's do who was it?
Speaker 4: Well?
Speaker 3: It was I don't know if you know her.
Speaker 2: I do know her, but I thought it was going
Speaker 2: to be our good friend Blair. And I was like,
Speaker 2: do I have to stop speaking to Blair?
Speaker 5: No?
Speaker 3: No, I don't think Blair would have a hot take
Speaker 3: on Hacks to be how but yeah, she was like,
Speaker 3: can we like?
Speaker 1: And I think she thought I was going to be like, yes,
Speaker 1: I hate it too, and I was like, oh, I
Speaker 1: really can't. I like loved it so much, and I
Speaker 1: was very public about how much I love it. So
Speaker 1: I really can't like talk shit with you right now.
Speaker 1: But I wanted to really quickly shout out to the
Speaker 1: dozens and dozens of listeners who contacted us about their
Speaker 1: pop rock fellatio experiences. I would say nine out of
Speaker 1: ten of you did not enjoy.
Speaker 3: It at all. I heard.
Speaker 1: We got a lot of stories about pop rocks getting
Speaker 1: stuck in pea holes. We got stories about guys saying
Speaker 1: it's about like sandpaper on their junk, a couple girls
Speaker 1: were like it made it taste better, or like he
Speaker 1: kind of liked it. A couple of people said they
Speaker 1: had a good time with it, but not very many.
Speaker 1: Most people thought it was a bad endeavor.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't Yeah, I don't want it's yeah, I
Speaker 2: don't get it, honestly.
Speaker 3: Like somebody also wrote that you have to get fresh
Speaker 3: pop rocks, like you can't get stale ones, Like you
Speaker 3: have to check and make sure that they're really fresh.
Speaker 3: So how do you check anyone's plint? I don't know.
Speaker 1: It's like I think you can kind of tell, maybe
Speaker 1: by shaking the package if they like are loose and
Speaker 1: they're shaken up, that they're that they're from, like they're
Speaker 1: not stuck together.
Speaker 3: You know what I mean. I don't know. I'm literally
Speaker 3: spitballing here.
Speaker 5: I don't know.
Speaker 2: I don't know if I've mentioned this on the pod before,
Speaker 2: but I remember there were rumors that a girl gave
Speaker 2: a blowjob and got bubble gum stuck in the guy's pubes.
Speaker 2: And it was I was a young age where I
Speaker 2: was like shocked that anyone's even sucking a dick and
Speaker 2: so but I remember being like, oh, I guess they're cool.
Speaker 1: Yeah that sounds like a something about Mary type of
Speaker 1: thing that would happen.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, there was so. I mean, childhood rumors are wild.
Speaker 2: There was one guy my football team. Everyone said he
Speaker 2: fucked a dog, and I was just like, yep, John
Speaker 2: fucked a dog.
Speaker 3: That's that.
Speaker 2: There was one girl where they're like, yeah an orchestra,
Speaker 2: she had pubes in her braces, and it's like, really,
Speaker 2: I don't know, just yeah, rumors are crazy, but yeah,
Speaker 2: I was.
Speaker 3: Everybody was. I love our audience is very.
Speaker 1: Like open, and everybody was just like, okay, here's what
Speaker 1: happened when I suck my boyfriend's dick. Like everybody was
Speaker 1: just very open telling us.
Speaker 3: What's up in the DMS. And I think it's it's
Speaker 3: a no for me on the Pop Rocks BJ.
Speaker 2: But I do remember for some reason, this is a
Speaker 2: vivid memory of mine from a cosmo I read when
Speaker 2: I was in high school. But it said to like
Speaker 2: put hair ties around dix and I was like, this
Speaker 2: is you don't need accessories.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I was just like they're like, take the scrunch you
Speaker 2: off your head, tie it on a dick, and I'm like,
Speaker 2: adults are crazy.
Speaker 3: Adults are crazy. I mean, this is stuck with me
Speaker 3: now for what eighteen years, Like, I can't Cosmo was
Speaker 3: like so fun to read when you were like thirteen,
Speaker 3: Like it was so.
Speaker 2: Like, if you're a grown up reading Cosmo, you need
Speaker 2: you need professional help, you need an intervention.
Speaker 3: Cosmo is for children. Yeah, you know what I.
Speaker 1: Started reading after like would I was like maybe fourteen fifteen.
Speaker 1: If i'd be like on a flight or something, I
Speaker 1: would starting some No, I would get maxim. I actually
Speaker 1: thought that the articles were really funny.
Speaker 3: Mmmm yeah. Vanity Fair to me, is that the king
Speaker 3: of well, that's the adult you know. I'm a subscriber.
Speaker 2: One day, maybe I'll get a New Yorker. And this
Speaker 2: is the thing with the New Yorker. I start an
Speaker 2: article and then I'm like, I'll finish this later. Never
Speaker 2: finish it later. Yeah, so I know, like the first
Speaker 2: four paragraphs of every New Yorker article that's geared towards me.
Speaker 3: And then I just I can't.
Speaker 1: Well, Vanity Fair and New Yorker both will do sometimes
Speaker 1: like really good long ass expose's about crimes, like they
Speaker 1: will do like really I remember reading about Amanda Knox.
Speaker 3: I think in Vanity fair.
Speaker 1: Like a lot of I've read about a lot of
Speaker 1: like kind of more obscure murders that maybe happen like
Speaker 1: abroad in those publications, and they're fun. I always like
Speaker 1: when like there's a sort of a crimey one in
Speaker 1: one of those.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a new crimeing Netflix show, but I think
Speaker 2: it's dubbed.
Speaker 3: And uh oh and in Sami about Brazil. Yeah, and
Speaker 3: what is it when the letters when it's letters.
Speaker 1: Oh, subtitles, Yeah, I don't want it. No, well, listen,
Speaker 1: it's not. I started, I started watching it. They dubbed
Speaker 1: the whole thing, so, which is other people's voices are
Speaker 1: speaking English.
Speaker 3: Okay, Okay, I can handle that. I don't think I
Speaker 3: had it with subtitles on. I don't think.
Speaker 2: I think, well, because I love a doc where the
Speaker 2: killer goes yeah I killed him.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but this is why, you know, I like.
Speaker 1: But it's kind of interesting like that we don't have
Speaker 1: that much dubbing in the US, like and so it
Speaker 1: feels like because like English.
Speaker 3: Is so you know, the main language in a lot.
Speaker 1: Of places, and like it's it's like they're are they
Speaker 1: are like voice actors. Like there's a woman that's acting
Speaker 1: as this woman who killed her husband, you know, and
Speaker 1: she's like he called me this, like he tried to
Speaker 1: take my daughter away. And it's just interests, like an
Speaker 1: interesting I don't know, like to dub for a documentary
Speaker 1: and not like you know what I mean, not for
Speaker 1: movies or like fiction.
Speaker 3: It's interesting what I did instead of watch that.
Speaker 2: As I watched, I would say, forty episodes of Manifest.
Speaker 3: Oh, yes, that's your new thing. Yeah, And I watched
Speaker 3: This is Pop. I watch that.
Speaker 2: It's like every episode's about a different story about pop music.
Speaker 2: And the one that I was telling care about this
Speaker 2: is the one that I'm the most obsessed with is
Speaker 2: the one about Sweden. It's episode three, and it's all
Speaker 2: about that record label, Max Martin, Dennis Pops and like
Speaker 2: all the Swedish hit makers up until now, Like I
Speaker 2: didn't realize that the Swedes were still doing all the
Speaker 2: Demilevado songs, all the like this is America that song,
Speaker 2: like that's a Swedish guy with long hair. And so
Speaker 2: they just talk about why Sweden is so awesome and
Speaker 2: the English so they said, like with Eurovision and everything,
Speaker 2: English is the main language and the reason the Swedish
Speaker 2: do such a good job with pop music. There's lots
Speaker 2: of theories. Is they have they don't know English that well.
Speaker 2: They do, but it's pared down and that's why the
Speaker 2: songs are so universal because it's the simplicity.
Speaker 3: Of the language where it's so cool.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they pair it all down because hit Me Baby
Speaker 2: one more Time was gonna be hit me Up. It's
Speaker 2: about a phone call, but it didn't fit in the music.
Speaker 2: Like to them, music comes first. They write the music
Speaker 2: and then fill in the words, and so hit me Baby,
Speaker 2: which we were like she wants to get slapped and
Speaker 2: it wasn't It was about like hit me up, like
Speaker 2: call me Yeah. So they just talk about like language
Speaker 2: is interesting and that's why all of them have worldwide hits.
Speaker 3: It's like simple language that everyone in the world can understand.
Speaker 3: That's so yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean, if you think of like Ace of Bass,
Speaker 1: I mean I loved all that they're Swedish.
Speaker 2: Ace of Bassis part of the documentary. Of course, I
Speaker 2: was a huge as of Bass.
Speaker 1: I used to calls you one undred in New York
Speaker 1: when I was in eighth grade all the time and
Speaker 1: ask them to play the sign.
Speaker 2: I used to like, I mean, as a recent immigrant
Speaker 2: Ace of Bass was everything like that was our families
Speaker 2: everything like I had a VHS Ace of baits like
Speaker 2: the nine Oh amazing. But they also they say the
Speaker 2: Swedes are so good because they like to show how good.
Speaker 3: They are, not talk about it.
Speaker 2: And I'm like, I don't relate, but they're just like,
Speaker 2: we like to get work done.
Speaker 3: We're not supposed to brag.
Speaker 2: No one's I did write a quote down one of
Speaker 2: the guys was goes, it's unbecoming the brag, especially when
Speaker 2: you don't have to.
Speaker 3: And I was like, that's a good one. That's a
Speaker 3: good quote. Yeah. But Manifest, let me know. I haven't
Speaker 3: finished it. But it's a soap opera but with magical powers.
Speaker 3: There's like sci fi in it.
Speaker 2: It's sci fi, it's fortune telling, it's mysticism, it's families,
Speaker 2: it's the government.
Speaker 1: Don't bring it up to Jared. We're already watching Evil.
Speaker 1: I can't get another show like that.
Speaker 2: And I don't think he would like it because it's
Speaker 2: too campy. I don't think Jara would be like this
Speaker 2: doesn't make sense, like he wouldn't.
Speaker 3: It wouldn't be linear to hand wow, I spot on
Speaker 3: impression of mine, right, he would be mad.
Speaker 2: I know you would be mad because like at one episode,
Speaker 2: it's like, it's the government, the government's after us, and
Speaker 2: our kid has cancer. Next episode, the kid doesn't have cancer,
Speaker 2: never mentioned again, and the government's taking a break, like
Speaker 2: and suddenly tarot cards are king.
Speaker 3: It's very very strange. That's really funny.
Speaker 2: But one of the characters that is is in the NYPD.
Speaker 1: So, oh, okay, maybe they'll be a crossover Manifest Is
Speaker 1: it on NBC?
Speaker 3: You're watching it on Netflix? I know, but is it
Speaker 3: an NBC show? I don't think so, is it.
Speaker 1: I'm just saying When it is, then there's more chance
Speaker 1: of across. Marishka shows up on Manifest. One of the
Speaker 1: Manifest people shows up at the sixteenth Precinct.
Speaker 3: Manifest ended. Oh it ended, okay, So this is like.
Speaker 2: My imposter thing where I'm like, I need another season
Speaker 2: and they're this ended eight years ago.
Speaker 1: I kind of love that Netflix gives shows like that,
Speaker 1: like a sort of second wave of fans.
Speaker 3: I think that's cool. Oh and let's shout out.
Speaker 2: I didn't start watching it yet, but our friend Ashling
Speaker 2: I saw biboards all across LA of her show, which
Speaker 2: I think is one of the best shows I've ever
Speaker 2: seen in my life, and season two is getting critically acclaimed. Yeah.
Speaker 3: Her show is called This Way Up.
Speaker 1: It's on Hulu here in the States, and it's on Jeez,
Speaker 1: it's in your She's Irish, so I know we have
Speaker 1: Irish listeners. It's on where you guys are in the UK.
Speaker 1: I just don't know what the channel is, but follow
Speaker 1: her Instagram as we miss be and she's so great.
Speaker 1: I loved the first season so excited for the second season.
Speaker 1: She canceled on hanging out with me in New York
Speaker 1: once so she could finish something for the second season.
Speaker 1: So make it worth make it worth me getting stood up. Okay,
Speaker 1: just watch it. It's great, Lisa.
Speaker 6: I need to save you from getting hounded online that
Speaker 6: Hillary Swank did just start in a Netflix TV show.
Speaker 6: She was in like two seasons. It's called Away. She
Speaker 6: was also just in a movie, so she is working.
Speaker 6: I'm saving you for getting today.
Speaker 3: I'm not against Hilluis Swang Swank, Army, rise up, Lisa.
Speaker 2: The last time I saw Hillary Swank working was in
Speaker 2: the Comedians and Cars getting coffee with Julia Louis Dreyfus
Speaker 2: and they're driving around and Hillary Swank was trying to
Speaker 2: get a parking spot and they accidentally ran into her.
Speaker 3: That's the last time I saw her. Well, she's back, baby,
Speaker 3: She's on Netflix in a show we've never heard of. Ye,
Speaker 3: congrats to her. Let's get started. We've got a great
Speaker 3: episode today. All right.
Speaker 1: I'm so excited to go back into the past a
Speaker 1: little bit and do this episode, which is it's called
Speaker 1: Rooftop and it is from season three, episode four, so
Speaker 1: we're the original three seasons.
Speaker 3: October nineteenth, two thousand and one. This air to this episode.
Speaker 1: Sometimes I just like to say the date so we
Speaker 1: can place ourselves in the time period, so very early aughts.
Speaker 3: Hosts nine to eleven only a month out.
Speaker 1: Yeah, a month after nine to eleven. Great, I didn't
Speaker 1: even think about that. Yes, I don't know why I
Speaker 1: didn't think about that. I don't always think of everything
Speaker 1: in context to nine to eleven, but yes, that is
Speaker 1: very close.
Speaker 2: Well, you know, my favorite tweet of all time is
Speaker 2: someone going that they were in college and someone asked,
Speaker 2: what's the biggest defining moment of the two thousands, and
Speaker 2: he's like, thank god, I didn't raise my hand. I
Speaker 2: was going to say Britney spears and it was nine
Speaker 2: to eleven and I will share it every time I
Speaker 2: see it. And yeah, nine to eleven was huge.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean Britney's pretty huge too, and she keeps enduring. Okay,
Speaker 1: so we open this episode on a couple making out
Speaker 1: on a rooftop.
Speaker 3: She looks very young.
Speaker 1: He's like, come over here, there's a better view in
Speaker 1: this part of the building. So like they're moving around
Speaker 1: this little rooftop to try to like make out with
Speaker 1: the hottest.
Speaker 3: Background I don't really know.
Speaker 1: And then they hear a door open their footsteps. It's
Speaker 1: Stabler and Benson. They're to bust up this makeout session
Speaker 1: and the guy and they go little. The girl's like,
Speaker 1: who's that and he's like, oh, it's the Sex Police,
Speaker 1: and you know that is one of my favorite nicknames
Speaker 1: for the sv crew. This guy's name is Leon, and
Speaker 1: Stabler really has it out for him. Stabler reveals that
Speaker 1: Leon has only been out of prison for two weeks
Speaker 1: and his quote already back at it. So we kind
Speaker 1: of find out that this guy's got a thing for
Speaker 1: underage girls. This girl is fourteen, and they were definitely
Speaker 1: about to have sex, and then Stabler reveals that Leon
Speaker 1: is HIV positive, which you are definitely not allowed to
Speaker 1: disclose other people's HIV status. But we all know how
Speaker 1: Stabler feels about rules, and that is going to come
Speaker 1: up a lot more times in this episode, so we
Speaker 1: can have a conversation about how unethical that is. But
Speaker 1: that is what happens, and that takes us out of
Speaker 1: the cold open into the credits, and now at the precinct,
Speaker 1: Elliott is sitting down face to face with Leon, asking like,
Speaker 1: how many little girls have you done since you got out?
Speaker 1: Leon's not here for Stabler trying to send him back
Speaker 1: to the joint, so he's just like, I was going
Speaker 1: to use protection.
Speaker 3: I don't know what you're talking about. I'm going to
Speaker 3: wait for my attorney to get here so he lawyers up.
Speaker 1: We find out that Leon was in jail for five
Speaker 1: years for a sex act with an underage girl, because
Speaker 1: Stabler finally got someone to.
Speaker 3: Testify that they had sex.
Speaker 1: Because I think he's had many many victims of underage girls,
Speaker 1: but only one was able to testify and do a
Speaker 1: bring forth real charges, so he did five years. Right
Speaker 1: at this moment in the episode, our girl, Samantha Howard
Speaker 1: Corbin aka Corbyn Miller's name pops up in the credit,
Speaker 1: so she was a consulting producer on this episode.
Speaker 3: Just a counted, just a fun little thing.
Speaker 1: I noticed a pre married I guess Samantha Howard Corbyn.
Speaker 1: Cabot is like, well, you can't arrest this guy based
Speaker 1: on something he might have done. And the show deals
Speaker 1: with this a few other times, like down the road
Speaker 1: of Like remember there's that episode where the guy has
Speaker 1: like a full kill room based in his basement of
Speaker 1: his apartment and he says he's like, I fantasize about
Speaker 1: killing children, but I've never done it, and it's like
Speaker 1: thought crime, Like can you arrest people for things that
Speaker 1: they are like about to do or might do? So
Speaker 1: that's kind of what's going on here. Cabots like, you
Speaker 1: don't really have any anything, and Stabler is like, well,
Speaker 1: you can get him on a tempted rate because of
Speaker 1: the girl's underage and reckless endangerment because of his AHIV status,
Speaker 1: and Cabot's like, listen, I might be able to do
Speaker 1: something here. I might have a little trick up my sleeve,
Speaker 1: but I need Huang and I need you to get
Speaker 1: him all the prison records and medical history over to
Speaker 1: to Huang so we can see if.
Speaker 3: It will work.
Speaker 1: This guy's rap sheet, Leon started at seven years old.
Speaker 1: He had eleven arrests by the time he was thirteen,
Speaker 1: and like no one stops to ever be like, hmm,
Speaker 1: think Leon might have had a traumatic upbringing, Like do
Speaker 1: you think this might be part of the problem, Like
Speaker 1: your rap sheet starting at seven is like that's no accident,
Speaker 1: Like something's going on, you know. So meanwhile, Craigan tells Elliott,
Speaker 1: I'm not going to let you just follow every purple
Speaker 1: around who might reoffend, And Elliott goes, this guy's penis
Speaker 1: is a deadly weapon, and he's got a thing for
Speaker 1: young girls. He's not wrong, but I think you're also
Speaker 1: not allowed as a cop to just go around telling
Speaker 1: everyone HIV status and also sort of stalking this guy.
Speaker 2: And it's also dangerous to zone in on someone because
Speaker 2: you miss out on other clues or people, like you
Speaker 2: can't just be like that's my guy, Like that's not.
Speaker 3: The police work. Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1: Now Cabbot is walking and talking to executive Ada stan Valani,
Speaker 1: who is a recurring character played by the lovely Ron Liebman.
Speaker 1: I love this actor. He has passed away and he
Speaker 1: was married to icon Jessica Walter, who also passed away
Speaker 1: this year. Love them as a little couple together, they've
Speaker 1: both been on his view. We find out that Cabot's
Speaker 1: plan is to use a mental hygiene law that could
Speaker 1: Civilly commit Leon as a danger to society, but that
Speaker 1: would set a precedent, so it's kind of a long
Speaker 1: shot at the precinct.
Speaker 3: Finn.
Speaker 1: You know, season three Finn is very different from season
Speaker 1: twenty two Finn. He's evolved a lot, and he is
Speaker 1: sort of defending statutory rapists, like, oh, what are we
Speaker 1: supposed to check their birth certificates?
Speaker 3: Like whatever? Like girls are looking old these days, Like
Speaker 3: I don't know, it's just not true. Like that's the
Speaker 3: whole thing, Like the girls looking old. It's like, nah,
Speaker 3: I see teens.
Speaker 2: Now I see people in college, and I'm like, who
Speaker 2: are these fourth graders?
Speaker 3: Right?
Speaker 2: Like it is so obvious to me. And now I
Speaker 2: even laugh at like how I used to use a
Speaker 2: fake ID to go to bars and clubs. It's like
Speaker 2: I was clearly a child, you know, everyone must have
Speaker 2: known it.
Speaker 3: Like and guys are like she was wearing a tube top.
Speaker 3: Kids don't have tube tops, Like I don't know.
Speaker 1: Like guys judge by like what they're wearing or how
Speaker 1: much makeup they have on for like how old they are,
Speaker 1: and it's like, no, you can pretty much tell.
Speaker 2: It's like you want to fuck a kid, Sorry, you're
Speaker 2: a rapists, Like there's no confusion.
Speaker 3: I just feel like teens very much look like children. Yeah.
Speaker 3: So now Cabat and Huang arrive on the scene.
Speaker 1: Huang's like, I think I can make a case that
Speaker 1: Leon has anti social personality disorder. He knows what he's
Speaker 1: doing is wrong, and he doesn't care. And uh, you know,
Speaker 1: most people that he says with HIV like act more,
Speaker 1: you know, sort of respectful of the society around them,
Speaker 1: and they disclose and they behave more carefully, and this
Speaker 1: guy's just not doing that. We find out that he
Speaker 1: contracted HIV from drugs from shooting a heroin. I think
Speaker 1: in the judge's chambers, Cabbot and Leon's lawyers are fighting
Speaker 1: it out, like they're like, you can't commit this man
Speaker 1: based on something that he might have done. And he
Speaker 1: had condoms and he was going to have he was
Speaker 1: going to have protected sex and Cabot's like, no, he's
Speaker 1: a danger. He expresses his narcissism and anger by having
Speaker 1: sex with powerless underage girls and not disclosing his HIV status.
Speaker 3: That's actually what Huang says, but that's Cabot's argument.
Speaker 2: And how amazing, Like I forget how excited like to
Speaker 2: have Stephanie Marsh and bed Wong together is nice, and
Speaker 2: now that we know that they're friends and yeah, keep
Speaker 2: in touch, it's like so exciting to see them together totally.
Speaker 1: I love, like, I love imagining that once they cut,
Speaker 1: like yell cut, they're like, want to get brunch later,
Speaker 1: like they're just friends and yeah, the judge says, you
Speaker 1: got to prove that he was going to have unprotected sex,
Speaker 1: so I don't know how they're polanning to do that.
Speaker 1: But then a rape case comes into the precinct and
Speaker 1: Elliott thinks it matches Leon's mo, so he'll take it.
Speaker 3: Olivia is like, Elliott, I have all this paperwork to do.
Speaker 1: I don't know what this is, like an episode where
Speaker 1: Olivia like can't be involved because she's there, but she
Speaker 1: doesn't really do anything.
Speaker 3: And we didn't mention this is Pixie Pixie Maurice.
Speaker 1: Oh yes, this is Pixie. I think the almost she
Speaker 1: almost got fired for it cut and Finn volunteers to
Speaker 1: go with. So a lot of this episode is like
Speaker 1: Stabler and Finn working together.
Speaker 3: In the hospital, we meet this poor tea girl.
Speaker 1: This girl's a really great actress because I feel so
Speaker 1: sad for she's like telling about her attack, like through tears,
Speaker 1: like she's really really like it's really heartbreaking.
Speaker 2: And there's something with like when an eye is covered
Speaker 2: with a bandage, it like escalates the oh no, yes
Speaker 2: so much it makes it all worse.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you're right, and Ipatri really ups the ante.
Speaker 1: So she says she met this guy down the block
Speaker 1: from where she lives. He said he was a promoter
Speaker 1: and could help her get a wrap audition, that his
Speaker 1: name was Andre, that he took her to a real restaurant,
Speaker 1: walked her home, then brought her up to the rooftop
Speaker 1: started to kiss her and when she said stop, he
Speaker 1: slapped her and pulled a knife on her and raped her.
Speaker 1: And he said that he was quote the love machine
Speaker 1: and was going to make her into a woman. And
Speaker 1: Elliot's like, I've heard that love machine line before, Ding ding,
Speaker 1: ding My encyclopedic memory for cases that go back into
Speaker 1: the early nineties. So Elliott remembers that this case from
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety three where the purpse said that, and he
Speaker 1: contacted the victim and the victim has aids.
Speaker 3: So in his mind, this is Leon.
Speaker 1: This is like something Leon's done, even though I've heard
Speaker 1: no proof so far in this episode that Leon's done
Speaker 1: anything violent to coerce these women into like to rape
Speaker 1: these women's He is statutorily raping them because they are
Speaker 1: under age, but they are all like consenting even though
Speaker 1: they're not allowed to consent. You know what I'm saying,
Speaker 1: is this like sticky language. I'm just saying he has
Speaker 1: not pulled a knife, he has not used violent force.
Speaker 2: Well, that's where the discussion in the argument comes in.
Speaker 2: Where if you have a disease like this and you
Speaker 2: unknowing like you do not tell people. It's like what
Speaker 2: Stabler said, it's a penis with a deadly weapon, So
Speaker 2: are you using it? So that is violence purposely? Try
Speaker 2: like injecting someone with HIV is violence?
Speaker 3: No?
Speaker 1: No, absolutely, What I'm saying is the ems of these
Speaker 1: crimes where this guy pulled a knife is not matching
Speaker 1: to me.
Speaker 3: That doesn't match Leon. Leon's never pulled a knife or
Speaker 3: a gun.
Speaker 1: He just sweet talks these teenagers and then yes, has
Speaker 1: sex with them and has HIV, which is horrible, but
Speaker 1: it's just to me, it's not totally matching emos. So anyway,
Speaker 1: Finn and Stabler are staking out Leon's place. Finn confides
Speaker 1: that he doesn't relate that this is like his neighborhood.
Speaker 1: He grew up ten blocks from here, ground zero for
Speaker 1: the sixty eight riots, like he lives in Harlem and
Speaker 1: this he grew up in Harlem, excuse me. And he
Speaker 1: doesn't like that somebody is like out there making his
Speaker 1: neighborhood more dangerous for young girls.
Speaker 2: And I do have to add that iced tease ponytails
Speaker 2: in full fluff.
Speaker 3: This is full fluffin full.
Speaker 1: Yeah, his ponytail is trying to get an Emmy for
Speaker 1: Best Supporting Actor here. So Leon rolls up with a
Speaker 1: seventeen year old girl once again, Stabler like pushes them
Speaker 1: off against the car, starts to arrest him, and discloses
Speaker 1: his HIV status to the seventeen year old girl, and
Speaker 1: she's like, what the fuck, Like she didn't know, so
Speaker 1: she pieces out and then they have the nineteen ninety
Speaker 1: three victim come in to do a lineup. She can't
Speaker 1: I D him. It's been you know, at this point,
Speaker 1: seven or eight years. She can't id the guy. And
Speaker 1: then they bring in the poor girl from the hospital
Speaker 1: with the ipatch. She's in a wheelchair. She can't I
Speaker 1: D him either, and she's like crying again. I thought
Speaker 1: this girl was such a good actress. That's in my notes.
Speaker 1: She is an amazing actress. Yeah, let's see if she's.
Speaker 3: She's like maybe once my eye gets better, I can see.
Speaker 1: Like it's so sad, so like, I just hate when
Speaker 1: they have to do lineups and they feel like they're
Speaker 1: failing by not being able to point out their attacker,
Speaker 1: because it's.
Speaker 2: When really the cops are failing by not having the
Speaker 2: right person in the light yet maybe right, Sorry, if
Speaker 2: I want ahead of Scotch.
Speaker 3: No, no, totally. So they have to cut Lee on loose.
Speaker 1: So now at two of this episode is where things
Speaker 1: fucking amp up. Now we're at a crime scene and
Speaker 1: a girl has been tossed from a rooftop on fire,
Speaker 1: like so horrific. Her name is Aisha Thompson. She's fourteen.
Speaker 1: The saving grace. I guess is that she was dead
Speaker 1: before he lit her on fire. I mean, he this
Speaker 1: person who killed her, uh, strangled her after she performed
Speaker 1: oral sex on him. And then suddenly this guy like
Speaker 1: bursts into the crime scene. He's hysterical and upset. His
Speaker 1: name is Rodney and this is his sister. Finn knows
Speaker 1: him from the neighborhood. He says he was up all
Speaker 1: night looking for her. She'd just been accepted to Stuyvesant.
Speaker 1: She was going to be somebody, and Rodney's like, what
Speaker 1: are you doing to solve my sister's murder? So like
Speaker 1: already you're getting this thing where Rodney's just like get
Speaker 1: on it, like fix it, you know, figure out who
Speaker 1: did this. Finn and Stabler they go talk to this
Speaker 1: corporation council I think, or you know, whoever covered Leon's
Speaker 1: cases when he was a juvenile, and the guy tells
Speaker 1: him that Leon always seemed like a serial killer in
Speaker 1: the making to him, that he tortured and killed pets,
Speaker 1: he torched the treatment facility that he was staying in
Speaker 1: at one point, and that nine of his eleven callers
Speaker 1: are for Arson. So again that's interesting, but none of
Speaker 1: that matches what he's doing now. He's like, we haven't
Speaker 1: seen him, like he hasn't like pulled weapons or done
Speaker 1: anything that seems like physically violent, aside from of course,
Speaker 1: infecting his young victims with HIV, which is horrible. At
Speaker 1: the precinct, Huang says that Arson makes two out of
Speaker 1: three for the triad of sociopathy, which apparently is killing animals,
Speaker 1: setting fires, and the third is, according to Munch, bedwetting,
Speaker 1: which means I was one out of three on the
Speaker 1: tryoud of sociopathy because I wet the bed for a while.
Speaker 3: Guy.
Speaker 2: What It also really makes these killers seem less threatening
Speaker 2: knowing that they're all pissing the bed too, you know.
Speaker 1: So Drue, Yes, I have obviously not into setting fires
Speaker 1: and have never harmed an animal, so I guess I'm
Speaker 1: not going to pass that test.
Speaker 3: Huong suggests that the cops.
Speaker 1: Following him might have set Leon off, and that's what
Speaker 1: like escalated him to murder, and Stabler's like no, no, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: like you can't blame.
Speaker 3: Us for this, like he's getting all mad and pissy.
Speaker 2: Well I also love because bd Wong response to that,
Speaker 2: and he's like, I'm profiling not accusing. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 2: like it's not about you, Stablery, can you believe that?
Speaker 1: He's like, I'm just saying my facts and doing my
Speaker 1: job and it's not always about what's going on with you.
Speaker 1: Finn and Stabler go talk to Leon's mom. She's initially
Speaker 1: like kind of like pissy at them, like, you guys
Speaker 1: are going to try to put my son in jail
Speaker 1: for no reason. And they're like, we just caught him
Speaker 1: with another teenager. So, and she's like, I don't know
Speaker 1: why he is the way he is. I tried to
Speaker 1: raise him right. And she's a legend. Actually she's an
Speaker 1: SVU legend. Yeah, she was in she's been in a
Speaker 1: few episodes, but she was in the episode this latest
Speaker 1: season where she was the judge that put away that
Speaker 1: bad NYC government official. She's the one that like is
Speaker 1: like the rules can play both sides, bitch.
Speaker 3: Adrian Lennox her name is.
Speaker 1: Adrian was yes, and she was the one that was like,
Speaker 1: even though this is what the law calls.
Speaker 3: For, I'm giving you a worse punishment.
Speaker 2: Basically because he did that to the boy that raped
Speaker 2: He was like, actually, I don't believe it. You're off
Speaker 2: And so she has like she's iconic, and she's like, hey, babe,
Speaker 2: it actually works both ways, and I don't like their
Speaker 2: sentence and I'm going to make it worse.
Speaker 3: How do you like them? Yes? Yes, yes, this is
Speaker 3: Wentworth Miller episode two.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's cool that she was in season three
Speaker 2: and season fucking twenty two, so it's really it's cool.
Speaker 3: They love to bring people back.
Speaker 1: The mom thinks that her son might be shooting dope
Speaker 1: again and said that the cops were because the cops
Speaker 1: were dogging him and he couldn't handle going back to prison.
Speaker 1: So Finn and Stabler are like, let's go check out
Speaker 1: the rooftop because we know Leon loves rooftops. Finn talks
Speaker 1: about how instead of vacations to Aruba back in the day,
Speaker 1: they would go to a roofa which was like how
Speaker 1: they would probably like lie out in the sun or whatever.
Speaker 1: In Harlem was just go on the roof and they
Speaker 1: up there. Unfortunately, they find Leon dead from an od
Speaker 1: like just up on the rooftop. And while there are
Speaker 1: discovering his body, they get a call about another body.
Speaker 1: This is another girl, another teenage girl, raped, killed, beaten
Speaker 1: with a brick and Melinda Warner is there the Emmy
Speaker 1: and she's like, this couldn't have been Leon. This girl
Speaker 1: was killed this morning and Leon died last night. So
Speaker 1: Stabler immediately is like, fuck, I was going down the
Speaker 1: wrong road and now these two girls are dead. One
Speaker 1: girl extremely like, you know, badly beaten, and you know
Speaker 1: it's like stable, Maybe if you weren't such a one
Speaker 1: track mind person, you could check out a couple different leads.
Speaker 2: I was about to be like, how do you just
Speaker 2: keep making the same mistakes over and over? But then
Speaker 2: I remembered I do that all the time, So what
Speaker 2: are you gonna do? Yeah, my stakes are just lower.
Speaker 3: Leon.
Speaker 1: Leon's mom is at the precinct and she's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: maybe you didn't kill my son, but you two, you
Speaker 1: all cops love to stick together.
Speaker 3: Don't you.
Speaker 1: She has kind of like a great final scene, and
Speaker 1: then they id the latest victim. All these victims are black, young,
Speaker 1: good students, have never been in trouble. So that basically
Speaker 1: leads Huang to conclude that this part must be well educated, attractive,
Speaker 1: and seem trustworthy, because these aren't girls that are like, yeah,
Speaker 1: let's go like do drugs or hang out.
Speaker 3: These are like good, good girls.
Speaker 1: So like why are they going off with this person?
Speaker 1: In further profiling this perp, Huang says, any challenge to
Speaker 1: his sense of control would set him off like these,
Speaker 1: Like even hearing the word no is what could just
Speaker 1: totally cause him to flip a switch.
Speaker 2: And this is an important scene because I feel that
Speaker 2: is a discussion we have even today where guys are
Speaker 2: like just say no, Just say if you don't like
Speaker 2: a guy hitting on you, just say stop. Yeah, it's
Speaker 2: like no, it's actually quite dangerous. Yeah, this, so this
Speaker 2: is like a very important scene.
Speaker 1: I think, yes, absolutely, And this is an interesting thing
Speaker 1: that I didn't really think about, but is so true
Speaker 1: if you look at like a lot of serial killers
Speaker 1: or like guys that you find out about that have
Speaker 1: wives or girlfriends like that, Guys like this, Hon says,
Speaker 1: usually have a submissive wife or girlfriend. Like I have
Speaker 1: a joke about Ted Bundy having a girlfriend the entire
Speaker 1: time they were dating, and like she was like a
Speaker 1: more of a submissive woman and she just wanted a
Speaker 1: father for her child.
Speaker 3: So she was like the perfect part.
Speaker 1: Like he never did anything to her, he never hurt her,
Speaker 1: he never did anything like violent to her, and he
Speaker 1: was the most violent serial killer. So it's interesting to
Speaker 1: me that a lot of these guys keep a wife
Speaker 1: or girlfriend around, maybe for appearances, maybe for alibis. I mean,
Speaker 1: who knows, because yeah, I think a lot of people think, oh,
Speaker 1: it's the single, creepy guy that's doing it, not the
Speaker 1: guy that has a girlfriend with a kid or whatever.
Speaker 1: You know, Like that kind of gives you what did
Speaker 1: we just we just talked about like the butcher baker
Speaker 1: from Alaska, Like no one thought about him because he
Speaker 1: was like a baker that had a wife and two kids.
Speaker 1: You know, like people definitely think that a family, kids,
Speaker 1: a wife, whatever kind of precludes you from being a
Speaker 1: killer or a psychopath, and it certainly does not.
Speaker 3: So Rodney shows up in.
Speaker 1: The precinct and he's very pissed that they still don't
Speaker 1: have the sister's killer. And then another girl is found,
Speaker 1: so this is the third murdered girl that they are
Speaker 1: finding in this episode, which is great, and it's all
Speaker 1: on rooftops and the super at.
Speaker 3: The building is like very sad. He's like, I really
Speaker 3: tried to keep the building safe, like this girl was
Speaker 3: such a good girl. And then they speak to this
Speaker 3: victim's mother and she's like, I sent my daughter to
Speaker 3: the corner store for milk and bread. And then when
Speaker 3: they go to the corner the store, Clark remembers a
Speaker 3: guy coming in behind her and saying that they knew
Speaker 3: each other. They were chit.
Speaker 1: Chatting, laughing it up, and that they left together. So
Speaker 1: that gives the cops something to go on, and uh, basically,
Speaker 1: the super puts it together with the description of the victim, like, oh,
Speaker 1: this looks like a guy in my building, Malik Harris,
Speaker 1: who has recently shaved his head and his beard, and
Speaker 1: that matches the description. So they go up to Malik's
Speaker 1: apartment and they're like, are you Malie Harris And he's
Speaker 1: like yeah, but professionally, I'm known as King, So red Flag,
Speaker 1: you're in the Kingdom.
Speaker 2: For those Sex in the City heads here, Malik Harris
Speaker 2: is in one of the most cringe worthy episodes of
Speaker 2: Sex and the City.
Speaker 3: But when Samantha dates.
Speaker 2: A black man, this is the black man that she dates. Yes,
Speaker 2: he is like the music producer, yeah, and like he
Speaker 2: has a sister, a Dina, who owns like a cool
Speaker 2: Southern fusion restaurant, and she doesn't want them dating, but
Speaker 2: they're like, Samantha just does so many embarrassing things.
Speaker 3: But he is a hot guy and he fucks Samantha.
Speaker 2: So yeah, he is very hot. So not man in
Speaker 2: this episode, not hot in this episode.
Speaker 1: No. So when they walk into his apartment, he has
Speaker 1: a girlfriend who's kind of like, who is that?
Speaker 3: He's like, no one that concerns you.
Speaker 1: Like, he's extremely rude to his girlfriend and like screams
Speaker 1: at her in front of the cops multiple times. So
Speaker 1: I think that's like red flags. We just talked about
Speaker 1: having a submissive wife or girlfriend.
Speaker 2: Well yeah, he says, you may now dialogue, Like right,
Speaker 2: I can't even imagine someone saying that in my vicinity.
Speaker 3: And the cops definitely pick up on that and they
Speaker 3: fuck with it.
Speaker 2: There would be an SVU episode based on my crime
Speaker 2: if someone said that.
Speaker 1: He told me I could dialogue, so I murdered him.
Speaker 1: He admits that he saw the girl. Yeah, she's in
Speaker 1: my lives, in my building. I saw her at the
Speaker 1: corner store. I walked her home. She shouldn't be out
Speaker 1: that late, and then his to give an alibi, he
Speaker 1: says to his girlfriend, now you may dialogue, and she
Speaker 1: alibies him now. When they're walking out of the building too,
Speaker 1: Munch and Finn are like, you may now dialogue.
Speaker 3: They're like talking shit about him as they walk out
Speaker 3: of the building. So I'm glad.
Speaker 1: The cops are also like, this is not an okay
Speaker 1: way to talk to a woman. And then Rodney, the
Speaker 1: brother of Aisha, rolls up with a big group of people,
Speaker 1: being like, these cops don't care what happens to like
Speaker 1: people in this neighborhood. I see diffuses a situation perfectly.
Speaker 1: He's like, I don't care. I'm standing right here trying
Speaker 1: to find out who did it. Why don't you talk
Speaker 1: to the media that doesn't cover the murders of three
Speaker 1: black girls in this neighborhood, you know, like, and so
Speaker 1: he tries to get Rodney to chill.
Speaker 3: He's like, I'm out here trying to help you.
Speaker 2: Well, not only does he stick them onto the media,
Speaker 2: he also says, but does anyone have information to help?
Speaker 3: And everyone's silent.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And that's also very deliberate improving, Like you know,
Speaker 2: I mean, the cops make it hard for a community
Speaker 2: to want to work with them, but like, yeah, you
Speaker 2: also have.
Speaker 3: To like snitch, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: So now Malik is their number one suspect and they're
Speaker 1: looking into him, and it turns out he was in
Speaker 1: a car accident, so he was off the grid for
Speaker 1: three years recovering, like basically learning how to walk again.
Speaker 1: His legs were shattered apparently, and then he was living
Speaker 1: with his sister in Detroit. So they're like, okay, let's
Speaker 1: contract Detroit and see if there's like other victims that
Speaker 1: match this m O in Detroit, and Craigan tries to
Speaker 1: like drag Finn for bad mouthing the media, and Finn's like,
Speaker 1: white victims get more attention, and he's like, I hear you.
Speaker 1: I see where you're coming from. And he's like, no,
Speaker 1: you don't. You're not black and you're not from the hood.
Speaker 1: Two great points. Nothing I would ever accuse Craig enough
Speaker 1: being a black or from the hood. So Finn goes
Speaker 1: to meet one of his informants and he's like, I
Speaker 1: heard you're looking to jam up King. He's kind of
Speaker 1: bullshit in the rap game. He doesn't really have the goods.
Speaker 1: He just uses it to pick up women. And he
Speaker 1: buys his dope and coke from one of my corner boys.
Speaker 1: So it turns out King is a kept man, like
Speaker 1: he smooth talks ladies into paying for his lifestyle.
Speaker 3: So who knows, maybe that woman that.
Speaker 1: He asked to dialogue is paying for everything for him,
Speaker 1: because it doesn't sound like he's this rap mogul that
Speaker 1: he claims to be. Finn tells Cabot what's up, and
Speaker 1: he's like, search his house for drugs and then anything
Speaker 1: else they find there is just gravy. So then they
Speaker 1: obviously do that, and then they head to the studio
Speaker 1: where this girl is like laying down some rap track
Speaker 1: and he's sort of like the guy behind the glass,
Speaker 1: like bopping to the beat. And then in the studio
Speaker 1: they arrest him in front of everybody, and everyone's like
Speaker 1: what's going on?
Speaker 2: And the woman is terrible at rapping. She is like
Speaker 2: a real housewife trying to put out an album, you
Speaker 2: know what I mean.
Speaker 3: Like they did that on purpose. They were like, who
Speaker 3: wants to come in and just lay down really flat
Speaker 3: bars that are not good? Like that's what happened.
Speaker 1: So at the Medical Examiner's office tomorrow, Tuoney is there
Speaker 1: Melinda Warner, and we learned something very interesting. She goes
Speaker 1: to get a DNA swab from Malik, and he says, oh,
Speaker 1: that's against my religion. I'm a Jehovah's witness, and Melinda
Speaker 1: says him, even mentioning that means I can't take the
Speaker 1: sample at all, Like there's no coercion, there's no way
Speaker 1: to get the sample.
Speaker 2: And how did Jehovah's witnesses know about DNA testing?
Speaker 3: What is how is this a rule? I have no idea.
Speaker 1: I had never heard of that before, but I'm sure
Speaker 1: this show is so well researched that it's true. And
Speaker 1: it seems like something this guy would do, Like we're
Speaker 1: getting the idea of how like how manipulative and sort
Speaker 1: of like study this guy is at like hot, yeah,
Speaker 1: and diabolical at like hiding his tracks so like he
Speaker 1: knew knows immediately, Oh, you're trying to take my da.
Speaker 1: I mean she's up to his mouth with the cotton
Speaker 1: swab when he says, oh, by the way, I'm a
Speaker 1: Jehovah's witness, like he never said that before.
Speaker 6: You know, Jehovah's witness don't give blood or receive blood.
Speaker 3: They don't believe in transfusions.
Speaker 1: Okay, so probably like taking material out of someone's body
Speaker 1: for testing is like illegal.
Speaker 3: So in their illegal in their church.
Speaker 1: So he also flirts with Melinda and is like, yo,
Speaker 1: she is choice, and I'm like, you know what, you are,
Speaker 1: a disgusting killer, but you're right tomorrow.
Speaker 3: Tuney is hot, and I don't know.
Speaker 1: Why she doesn't get hit on more often by these
Speaker 1: creeps so or why there's never like a romance with
Speaker 1: her in one of the cops. She's hot. Outside the detectives,
Speaker 1: Munch and Finn are putting Malik into a car, into
Speaker 1: the cop car and they sort of Finn pushes his
Speaker 1: head so that his glasses fall off, his sunglasses and
Speaker 1: he's like, those frames are from Italy. It's like, okay,
Speaker 1: your girlfriend bought them for you. And Finn goes to
Speaker 1: pick them up and crushes them clearly on purpose, and
Speaker 1: is like offers to replace them. So then sneaky, sneaky,
Speaker 1: they get the DNA off of his glasses and guess what,
Speaker 1: his DNA matches all six murders and eight rapes.
Speaker 3: So this guy is a serial rapist and murderer.
Speaker 1: So now they're in a sort of chambers meeting with
Speaker 1: a judge trying to argue about getting the DNA in
Speaker 1: and Cabot argues that it's the same as coffee cups
Speaker 1: or soda cans, the way that the cops always like
Speaker 1: use deception to get fingerprints or DNA from people, they
Speaker 1: did in this case. And the lawyer argues that Finn
Speaker 1: assaulted Malik and stole his glasses. It was not a
Speaker 1: discarded object the way that a coffee cup or a
Speaker 1: soda cam would be.
Speaker 3: So the judge says, yeah, you guys forced him. He
Speaker 3: didn't give up.
Speaker 1: His glasses is out, and then they say they have
Speaker 1: to drop the charges because the DNA is like the
Speaker 1: smoking guns, so this is pretty bad news. In court,
Speaker 1: Cabot asks for remand, and the judge she's one of these,
Speaker 1: she's the classic redhead judge.
Speaker 3: We've talked about her before. The judge is like, I
Speaker 3: know what you're doing, Cabot. You screwed up your murder case.
Speaker 3: Now you want me to do your dirty work for you.
Speaker 3: Not going to happen. So she sets the bail at
Speaker 3: two thousand dollars. Not a problem for this guy.
Speaker 1: So he's smirking, and then suddenly Rodney jumps out of
Speaker 1: the galley, attacks Malik and and Malik bites Rodney on
Speaker 1: the arm. Now they have his DNA for real, and
Speaker 1: they arrest him again, and Cabot is like, this is
Speaker 1: all a little bit too perfect, and she thinks Finn
Speaker 1: set the whole thing up, and he's like, do you
Speaker 1: really want me to tell you if I did, and
Speaker 1: she's like, not really. So it's kind of a fun
Speaker 1: little moment with those two. She thinks he definitely gave
Speaker 1: Rodney the idea for the attack and the bite, which
Speaker 1: he did. So when Malik's lawyer agrees it was a setup,
Speaker 1: Cabot's like, oh, we made your client bite somebody.
Speaker 3: We couldn't have done that.
Speaker 1: So Saylor enters with Malik's DNA match to five homicides
Speaker 1: and four rapes in Detroit during the time he.
Speaker 3: Was living there with his sister. So this guy's like,
Speaker 3: he knows he's caught, and he goes, I want a deal,
Speaker 3: and Finn goes, how about right before we execute you.
Speaker 1: I bring you your last meal. He's fucked and that's it,
Speaker 1: and that's dick wolf baby. So they end up like
Speaker 1: it's kind of an interesting episode because you start with
Speaker 1: this guy who is not a good guy, who is
Speaker 1: hooking up with underage girls and possibly infecting them with
Speaker 1: HIV just because he sort of wants to get his
Speaker 1: rocks off without protection and you know, doesn't care about
Speaker 1: other people's well being. But then it leads us to
Speaker 1: this way more I don't know, more heinous, but additionally.
Speaker 2: Definitely more heinous. Yeah, I think burning is ups the sure.
Speaker 1: Sure, but I mean you murder somebody quickly, or you
Speaker 1: give them a disease that was going to kill them
Speaker 1: over time.
Speaker 3: I mean they're both pretty many.
Speaker 2: Well, I mean that's the whole There's like this cases
Speaker 2: of very complex and we'll obviously get it into it,
Speaker 2: but HIV is not.
Speaker 3: A death sentence right now.
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, I think maybe in two thousand and one,
Speaker 1: the idea was more it was coming, yes in the nineties.
Speaker 2: But was the idea because of media and biases or
Speaker 2: based on science, because even science it was not you know.
Speaker 3: So we'll obviously get into the complexities of this case.
Speaker 2: So stick around, babies, Okay, So welcome back.
Speaker 3: There's actually two cases.
Speaker 2: The first one in the more media one is the
Speaker 2: case of Nashan Williams, and that is a nineteen ninety
Speaker 2: seven case of a nineteen year old black man who
Speaker 2: was accused of having sex with younger women while he
Speaker 2: was HIV positive.
Speaker 3: You can substitute sex for rape. Do not come for me.
Speaker 2: But the smaller moment that we will talk about is
Speaker 2: the courtroom assault. So this like when Rodney jumps and
Speaker 2: there's a bite and all of that, and that DNA
Speaker 2: being used to convict someone that comes from the headlines baby,
Speaker 2: So I'll just touch on that before we get into
Speaker 2: the Nashan Williams case. And basically this happened in Springfield, Massachusetts,
Speaker 2: but there's so many Springfields and it was really I
Speaker 2: like all the all the newspapers were like the Springfield Daily.
Speaker 3: I'm like, what state are you fucking? Yeah? There was
Speaker 3: you know, It's crazy.
Speaker 1: When I was a kid and I watched The Simpsons,
Speaker 1: I was always like, where is Springfield? Like I was
Speaker 1: always obsessed with knowing where Springfield was. And then I
Speaker 1: for some reason, because Springfield is the capital of Illinois,
Speaker 1: right it is, Yes, I was.
Speaker 3: Like, it's Illinois.
Speaker 1: The Simpsons is absolutely in Illinois. For some reason, that
Speaker 1: was just like in my head. But I've been to Springfield,
Speaker 1: Massachusetts many many times. It's twenty minutes from where I
Speaker 1: went to college.
Speaker 3: I'm assuming you know this.
Speaker 2: They picked Springfield on purpose, so no one knows where
Speaker 2: any it is.
Speaker 3: Okay, yes, yes. In my eleven year old brain, I
Speaker 3: was like, it's Illinois because that's where the.
Speaker 2: Cap But Matt Groni is from like the Portland area,
Speaker 2: And if you do go to Portland, a lot of
Speaker 2: the streets are like Flanders and like so the streets
Speaker 2: in Portland are a lot of characters of the Simpsons.
Speaker 3: So that's really fun. Okay, cool, very.
Speaker 2: Fun to walk around Portland and see that for me
Speaker 2: Crabapple Drive.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So, Alfred Gaynor is a serial killer and rapist who
Speaker 2: is active between nineteen ninety five and nineteen ninety eight,
Speaker 2: and he is serving life in prison, and he is
Speaker 2: especially heinous and so fucking awful like so many victims,
Speaker 2: he seems brutal. I wonder if there's like a fuller
Speaker 2: episode based on him. I don't know much about him,
Speaker 2: but I was like, fuck, this guy's bad. So on
Speaker 2: April thirtieth and nineteen ninety eight, during one of the
Speaker 2: court hearings, Gaynor was attacked by the son of one
Speaker 2: of his victims. So Eric Downs assaulted Gainor and it
Speaker 2: was wild, so he like burst into the gallery, he
Speaker 2: repeatedly punched Gaynor, climbed on his back, knocked into the floor,
Speaker 2: then picked up a chair and smashed it on top
Speaker 2: of Gainer. And then a woman grabbed Downs and was
Speaker 2: defending Gaynor, and we found out that's Gainer a sister, Kathy,
Speaker 2: and there was a third person involved. So it was
Speaker 2: like a full on courtroom scuffle and Eric was charged
Speaker 2: with assaultan contempt of court. I couldn't find his sentencing.
Speaker 2: Hopefully it was minimal and as a result of the
Speaker 2: DNA and fingerprint evidence from the attack, prosecutors were able
Speaker 2: to prove that the accused had indeed killed Rosemary Downs,
Speaker 2: Eric Downs, his mother, and three other people. So in
Speaker 2: May two thousand, Gainers found guilty and received a life
Speaker 2: sentence with no possibility of parole. But he never has
Speaker 2: admitted his guilt. So that's just a little tidbit.
Speaker 3: It's like when we.
Speaker 1: Talked about like Craig Pye or like it's like I
Speaker 1: just don't get when like they've got the evidence, man
Speaker 1: like you did it, Like I just don't. Never admitting
Speaker 1: guilt is like, so you're locked in a prison in
Speaker 1: your own mind.
Speaker 2: I feel like, yeah, So back to the Nashaun Williams case.
Speaker 2: So this is very in line with like Leon where
Speaker 2: he was like this wild, bad kid from the jump.
Speaker 2: But it's because he had a very tough life and
Speaker 2: it sucks that and that's why the police saying and
Speaker 2: that's why everyone's so mad at how the world works,
Speaker 2: because instead of just like helping people from a young
Speaker 2: age thrive, they put them in jail and make money.
Speaker 2: So it is really fucked up. But his mother was
Speaker 2: dependent on drugs. There was no father figure, and he
Speaker 2: was put into special education classes in Brooklyn public schools
Speaker 2: and nobody can pinpoint when he actually like dropped out,
Speaker 2: so he drops out of school. No one even knows
Speaker 2: when or how, so you can see that there was
Speaker 2: not much like guidance in his life in any way.
Speaker 2: There was nearly a dozen investigations of his mother conducted
Speaker 2: by the Child Welfare Agency from nineteen eighty one to
Speaker 2: nineteen eighty six, so like she like the government knew
Speaker 2: that she was not doing a good job, and his
Speaker 2: sisters were placed in other homes helped out, but no
Speaker 2: one really helped him, and he caused a lot of
Speaker 2: problems in the neighborhood. He beat an elderly man who
Speaker 2: regularly like would give him pocket change when he was
Speaker 2: a kid, Like he had kind of like no loyalty
Speaker 2: or morals or anything to anybody. And he beat the
Speaker 2: old man up who would like throw him cat like
Speaker 2: money once in a while. And then he went from
Speaker 2: like broken home to thievery to gangs to crack dens
Speaker 2: and just it's just kind of like the criminal pipeline,
Speaker 2: so to speak. Kind and then he ended up shooting
Speaker 2: a store clerk that he talked with regularly. So this guy,
Speaker 2: Colin Lawrence, was the owner of a store on No
Speaker 2: Strand Avenue. And this case was interesting to read about
Speaker 2: two because I lived a year in Crown Heights and
Speaker 2: he's around Eastern Parkway and so all of.
Speaker 3: These streets are very familiar to me.
Speaker 2: And they mentioned the Albany Projects and that was across
Speaker 2: the street from my home. So I felt like very
Speaker 2: a part not a part of the story, but I
Speaker 2: you know, I like when I covered the case from Skochie,
Speaker 2: there's just something when you can relate to what's happening.
Speaker 2: So Colin Lawrence is the owner of the store on
Speaker 2: No Strin Avenue and he used to give like naseean
Speaker 2: dollars on the weekends so he can go have fun.
Speaker 2: And he used to talk about the Knicks like they
Speaker 2: were part of the community. And in nineteen ninety three,
Speaker 2: he entered the store with a gun and shot him
Speaker 2: but in his hand.
Speaker 3: He's fine.
Speaker 2: He lived, and he ended up not pressing charges at all,
Speaker 2: and he's just lucky to be alive. And he had
Speaker 2: a quote where he was like, yeah, have someone you
Speaker 2: know comes into rob you know they're willing to kill
Speaker 2: you because they're fucking desperate, like they have nothing to
Speaker 2: lose if you know who the person is. And so
Speaker 2: he had a robbery conviction at fifteen. He also had
Speaker 2: a murder charge at seventeen, but he only sort of
Speaker 2: served a year of it because he was acquitted of
Speaker 2: the killing.
Speaker 3: So wow, that's kind of wild.
Speaker 2: In all, he amassed eight arrests and at least three
Speaker 2: convictions through his life, and detectives from the seventy seventh
Speaker 2: Precinct said he was very hated and that people were
Speaker 2: eager to give him up and offer incriminating information about him.
Speaker 2: He had no friends, Like, not only did people hate him,
Speaker 2: but then they were also scared of him, so they
Speaker 2: were committed to wanting to get him off the streets,
Speaker 2: so they were willing to work with the police because
Speaker 2: they're like, we hate this guy, like.
Speaker 3: Please block him up.
Speaker 2: The lawyer that works with him on the nineteen ninety
Speaker 2: four murder charge that he was found not like where
Speaker 2: he was found out guilty said, and all the time
Speaker 2: I represented him, no family called me, nobody came to
Speaker 2: the trial on his behalf, like nobody, nothing cared. And
Speaker 2: when they reversed the thing, he got up, never said
Speaker 2: thank you, left, talked to nobody, Like he was really
Speaker 2: a loner. Once he left jail in nineteen ninety five,
Speaker 2: he moved to Jamestown, New York, which is wild because
Speaker 2: my best friend is from there, and I've been to
Speaker 2: Jamestown many times, so it's like, hold up, We're in
Speaker 2: Crown Heights and Jamestown, how do I know everything? And
Speaker 2: there he partied with very young girls and he would
Speaker 2: cook for them and take them shopping in Buffalo or Eerie, Pennsylvania,
Speaker 2: where our friend's husband CJ is from. Like this is
Speaker 2: a wild to connect the dots of all of our friends.
Speaker 2: But yeah, like that's the whole thing with like these
Speaker 2: grown men that prey on young women. It's like, yeah,
Speaker 2: going to a real restaurant, like from the episode. Yeah,
Speaker 2: like buying something like in Buffalo is a big deal,
Speaker 2: and it wouldn't be to someone their age. So he
Speaker 2: would go back and forth from Jamestown to Brooklyn from
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety five to nineteen ninety seven.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a really good point, Lisa.
Speaker 1: If you're a guy and you're like, I can't tell
Speaker 1: how old these girls are, if they're excited that you're
Speaker 1: taking them for like a meal or like to buy
Speaker 1: them a tank top, like they're teenagers.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, they're too young.
Speaker 2: And then neighbors and acquaintances said that like sex was
Speaker 2: one of the most constant things in his life and
Speaker 2: that he was always having sex in public places or
Speaker 2: there was miserable circumstances involved, or he was bartering sex
Speaker 2: for drugs constantly. He was a drug dealer, He sold
Speaker 2: drugs and was a drug user. And so as we
Speaker 2: know with like HIV and IT, you know, like needles
Speaker 2: and sharing of those things also contribute to passing the virus.
Speaker 2: Like the crime that he became very known for is
Speaker 2: we were crimes against young women and the spread of
Speaker 2: HIV and AIDS that must might have infected dozens of people.
Speaker 2: It is really wild that, like there was this surge
Speaker 2: of HIV cases and it all can be tracked back
Speaker 2: to one man, Like that is very wild. So the
Speaker 2: New York Times there's like fourteen or so articles spanning
Speaker 2: a decade and more of time like this was a
Speaker 2: very sensationalized case, and like a fifteen and seventeen year
Speaker 2: old at the time of this article in October nineteen
Speaker 2: ninety seven said that he that like three friends all
Speaker 2: tested positive for HIV after having sex with him, So
Speaker 2: he was just like truly out there spreading HIV. And
Speaker 2: it's hard to pinpoint how many people he truly infected
Speaker 2: and were affected by this. So Chautago County authorities believed
Speaker 2: he infected ten or more people with HIV, and they
Speaker 2: were young girls, like around sixteen and as young as twelve,
Speaker 2: Like junior high teachers were like, yeah, he was always
Speaker 2: coming around, and of course, like I mentioned, with the drugs,
Speaker 2: it was like an even wider net. So it's like
Speaker 2: he's shopped like going to junior highs looking for young
Speaker 2: girls to prey on, and then like drugs too, So
Speaker 2: it's just like a lot of HIV could have been happening.
Speaker 2: So all the numbers kept growing and there's like a
Speaker 2: lot of discrepancies in it.
Speaker 3: So like in the start, there was like twenty eight.
Speaker 2: People that he had had sex with, and then county
Speaker 2: health officials said it was a total of one hundred
Speaker 2: and ten people identified that I'd had sex with him,
Speaker 2: and then he also gave nineteen more names, and like
Speaker 2: that's the thing. He was very giving and was like
Speaker 2: giving constant information and names of people and like, yeah,
Speaker 2: one of the girls was thirteen years old who contracted
Speaker 2: HIV from having statutory rape with him.
Speaker 3: I mean, the language of this is very, very hard.
Speaker 2: And then he admitted that he had sex with two
Speaker 2: hundred to three hundred women. Two of William's children in
Speaker 2: Chautauqua County were born with HIV no and then many
Speaker 2: of the women that were infected continued to have unprotected
Speaker 2: sex even after their diagnosis with other people that also
Speaker 2: spread the disease.
Speaker 3: So it was like he was the center of just.
Speaker 2: Like all the spikes in Chautaquoa County and in New
Speaker 2: York City of HIV. And then the media like really
Speaker 2: went wild and it was really sensationalized and they called
Speaker 2: him an AIDS monster and AIDS predator, and it was
Speaker 2: just like, you know, a lot of the press were
Speaker 2: super ignorant about HIV and racheal prejudice and then this
Speaker 2: is where so it also raises questions of anonymity.
Speaker 3: For those we talked about this who test positive. Like
Speaker 3: it used to.
Speaker 2: Be believed if names weren't kept secret, it would deter
Speaker 2: people from getting tested because of the stigma they would
Speaker 2: get so like it was hush hush, But that doesn't
Speaker 2: help track and stop the spread. So you know, when
Speaker 2: we're talking about Stabler like spreading all the gossip around,
Speaker 2: it's like they also need to know the names of
Speaker 2: people so they can help track it and help stop
Speaker 2: the spread, so that anonymity helps people get tested.
Speaker 3: It's just like very it's it's just very complicated.
Speaker 2: And if there wasn't the stigma of HIV and AIDS,
Speaker 2: this could have been treated in such a better way.
Speaker 2: But like if someone found out you were gay or
Speaker 2: something that could affect your life negatively, and so it's
Speaker 2: just like really complicated. And because of William's case, New
Speaker 2: York passed the law that mandated doctors and laboratories to
Speaker 2: report the names of individuals who test positive for HIV.
Speaker 2: Doctors are mandated to report the names of any known
Speaker 2: partners to the New York State Department of Health. Partners
Speaker 2: may be notified without permission of the patient, but the
Speaker 2: patient must be informed that their partners will be notified. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it's kind of like the contact tracing that they were
Speaker 2: trying to do with COVID a little bit. It's like
Speaker 2: if you had it, they were like, people were trying
Speaker 2: to contact you to be like, who have you been
Speaker 2: near to sort of get just reminding me of a
Speaker 2: little bit of that.
Speaker 3: The guy.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I was on a set where we all
Speaker 2: had to wear little contract tracer things on us, and
Speaker 2: so if anyone were to test positive, they can track
Speaker 2: who we spent the most amount of time talking about.
Speaker 3: Oh interesting. Yeah.
Speaker 2: He did plead guilty to charges of statutory rape and
Speaker 2: two counts of reckless endangerment for knowingly infecting two girls
Speaker 2: with the virus.
Speaker 3: He pled guilty in.
Speaker 2: Nineteen ninety nine and was sentenced to two prison terms
Speaker 2: of two to six years for statutory rape and another
Speaker 2: term of two to six years for reckless endangerment to
Speaker 2: start after the first terms were served that should have
Speaker 2: lasted for twelve years or until April thirteenth to twenty ten.
Speaker 2: He has completed those sentences, and then this is where
Speaker 2: it gets really fucked up, because it's not like you
Speaker 2: want to be on this guy's side, but what just
Speaker 2: went down is really mess stub So he has now
Speaker 2: served a decade longer than his original maximum sentence with
Speaker 2: no release state insight. And so now we're getting into
Speaker 2: like my sources that are from organizations that are trying
Speaker 2: to help.
Speaker 3: Him get out of being incarcerated.
Speaker 2: So I'm sure they're biased in some way, and we
Speaker 2: can all make our own decisions on how we feel
Speaker 2: about this. So in two thousand and seven, New York
Speaker 2: passed a law that allows the state to prevent the
Speaker 2: release of a very small percentage of convicted sex offenders
Speaker 2: who have had a mental abnormality and are unable to
Speaker 2: control themselves in the future. And this was done by
Speaker 2: the Elliot Spitzer administration.
Speaker 1: This is sort of like in the episode with this
Speaker 1: hygiene law that the mental hygiene law.
Speaker 2: One hundred percent one hundred percent, And so the Attorney
Speaker 2: General at the time was Cuomo uh and so Cuomo
Speaker 2: insists that Nashan's HIV status has nothing to do with
Speaker 2: his confinement, but HIV was referred to more than one
Speaker 2: thousand times during his civil commitment trial, and his HIV
Speaker 2: status was a central part of the case. So April ninth,
Speaker 2: twenty ten, four days before the end of Nashon's sentence,
Speaker 2: that New York Attorney General Cuomo filed an application to
Speaker 2: have him indefinitely civilly committed. So days before he was
Speaker 2: about to be released from prison, Cuomo filed a petition
Speaker 2: av Williams confined indefinitely at Central New York Psychiatric Center
Speaker 2: in Marcy, New York as a dangerous sex offender. If
Speaker 2: Nashan had been reckless and killed someone, even with the
Speaker 2: maximum sentence for reckless homicide, he would be free.
Speaker 3: This is basically the first time in New York.
Speaker 2: That someone has been committed like this based largely on
Speaker 2: HIV status. Wow, and it could be in the country too.
Speaker 2: They can't really define it. But it's like that's what
Speaker 2: I'm talking about with the science, where it's like you
Speaker 2: are making someone be in prison for the rest of
Speaker 2: their life because they have HIV, even though if he's
Speaker 2: on his meds and his viral load is life, so
Speaker 2: he can he will not pass it.
Speaker 3: And also he has.
Speaker 2: Committed his sentence, but maybe he is someone that can't
Speaker 2: be trusted.
Speaker 3: It it's just like really difficult.
Speaker 2: So, according to court documents, Williams failed to complete sex
Speaker 2: defender treatment and had a poor prison disciplinary record before
Speaker 2: two thousand and six. He has an antisocial personality disorder, psychopathy,
Speaker 2: and sexual preoccupation. He's now forty four years old, and
Speaker 2: so there's just a lot of fucked up shit. So
Speaker 2: they say that sometimes they don't give him his medications
Speaker 2: and like don't let him see infectious disease doctors and
Speaker 2: they fuck with his medical care. But when he is
Speaker 2: on all that care, it's like really impossible for him
Speaker 2: to transmit the virus because, like I said, the viral
Speaker 2: load is low, and it's just like an added fucked
Speaker 2: up because New York had campaigns to help end the
Speaker 2: stigma of HIV and that you can live a normal
Speaker 2: life while also saying that having AIDS makes you dangerous
Speaker 2: and you need to be locked up forever, right, And
Speaker 2: so he is still locked up, and there's a lot
Speaker 2: of people that are trying to get him out of this,
Speaker 2: like indefinite hold forever. But then it's like, if you
Speaker 2: let him out, will he go back to his old ways?
Speaker 3: Will he complete stuff? Yeah, that's what I'm wondering.
Speaker 1: I'm like to play Devil's advocate, Like this guy had
Speaker 1: no just he had no regard for people. In all
Speaker 1: these years, he could have been wearing condoms and now
Speaker 1: I know there's prep and there's all these ways you
Speaker 1: can keep your viral load and basically have it a
Speaker 1: non transmittable But would you trust this man to do
Speaker 1: that since he doesn't seem to have I think that's
Speaker 1: where the anti social personality thing comes in, is like
Speaker 1: you don't care about other people in society, is what
Speaker 1: they think they're saying about.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so if that's the case, but then his initial
Speaker 2: sentence should have been more. But he was nineteen when
Speaker 2: this happened and he's now forty four years old.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'd be interested to hear what he has to say,
Speaker 1: Like does he other interviews with him or anything or not.
Speaker 3: Really not anything new or current. Yeah, Like I'd like
Speaker 3: want to talk to him now and be like, what
Speaker 3: are your feelings like would you you know, like would you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like you know, it's really tough because when I
Speaker 2: hear this, I think it's fucked up and he should
Speaker 2: be released. To me, it's like when we read about
Speaker 2: like Julianni and Cuomo and all these people and what
Speaker 2: they did in their past, so it was all for
Speaker 2: their political careers, Like in no way in hell do
Speaker 2: I think Cuomo cared about anybody but himself and making
Speaker 2: precedent for himself for his political career. So to me,
Speaker 2: I just don't trust his motivation for doing this. I
Speaker 2: also think it is based fully on him having HIV
Speaker 2: and obviously, like I talked about earlier when we talked
Speaker 2: about that episode, that it is fucked up knowingly having
Speaker 2: HIV and like infecting people and like doing that. But
Speaker 2: are we saying that anyone with HIV should be locked
Speaker 2: away indefinitely forever, like and that they're morely worse than
Speaker 2: other people? Like No, No, you're saying it's a slippery slope,
Speaker 2: because I mean, I don't think they're talking about locking
Speaker 2: up somebody who has HIV and then has like a
Speaker 2: wanton disregard for other people people in their sexual activity,
Speaker 2: I guess for sure. But like if he if he
Speaker 2: recklessly killed someone, he would be out of prison, no problem.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so he is being held because of his HIV.
Speaker 1: So I think he's being held based on his likelihood
Speaker 1: of reoffending, which is a slippery slope. And it's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: you can't charge people for something that they like haven't
Speaker 1: done yet. He's served his time for what he's done,
Speaker 1: and now you're basically punishing for something that he hasn't
Speaker 1: done yet, but you think he will.
Speaker 2: Do because I don't know, like there's like halfway house
Speaker 2: situations or like impatient or there's like ways too that
Speaker 2: he has to go to a parole person or he
Speaker 2: can have a stabler follow his ass Like I don't I.
Speaker 3: Don't really know, but.
Speaker 2: It feels fucked up that Cuomo can just enact this
Speaker 2: and keep someone confined for the rest of their life.
Speaker 3: And it's just him. There's like not even any cases
Speaker 3: like this. There's very very easy.
Speaker 2: I think maybe there's been more since or something, but
Speaker 2: like it was the first of its kind to be
Speaker 2: like someone to be held indefinitely, because what we're saying
Speaker 2: is that we trust our leaders and we don't, right,
Speaker 2: So it's like if we're giving the power to that,
Speaker 2: like that's the whole thing it's power to the people.
Speaker 2: Like that's the whole point of this country. It's like
Speaker 2: a jury of your peers and a jury of his
Speaker 2: peers gave him the maximum sentence that he could have
Speaker 2: and he served that. And to just have some governor
Speaker 2: who was an attorney general who wants to be a
Speaker 2: political powerhouse, who we now know as like a fucking creep, yeah,
Speaker 2: and has committed weird crimes within his offices, and so
Speaker 2: it's like this fucking creep can lock up other people indefinitely.
Speaker 2: Like Cuomo's a shady character, you know, Like and all
Speaker 2: this stuff came out and all of a sudden, New
Speaker 2: York's open and weed's legal. Like he is playing a
Speaker 2: selfish game. Most politicians are. So it's just like I
Speaker 2: don't trust them. If it was a board of psychologists,
Speaker 2: if it was a board of social workers and scientists
Speaker 2: and doctors and they all came together and had a
Speaker 2: hearing and decided this guy is unsafe, that's fine.
Speaker 3: But to just have this dude, it's like fucked up.
Speaker 3: I think he's popped up.
Speaker 1: Well, it's definitely complicated, but you did find a resource
Speaker 1: that we're going to recommend later.
Speaker 3: During Sister peg.
Speaker 1: That looks really interesting if people want to sort of
Speaker 1: get more in depth than that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So that's that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And now let's talk to our guest, who I
Speaker 1: think you guys are going to be really excited about.
Speaker 3: Okay, our Camro.
Speaker 1: Returning guest, our first ever returning guest. We by popular
Speaker 1: demand have brought him back. He is a amazing show
Speaker 1: runner around executive. He show ran on Order SVU from
Speaker 1: seasons two to twelve and he's an icon. We are
Speaker 1: so excited to ask him a bunch of questions that
Speaker 1: you guys sent us.
Speaker 3: So check out our interview with mister Neil Bayer.
Speaker 2: Since we've last spoken to you, Christopher Maloney's ass has
Speaker 2: become a cultural touch point.
Speaker 4: What was that GQ or.
Speaker 2: Something interview mag that was like back in the days
Speaker 2: of OZ.
Speaker 5: That's like twenty Let's see, when I started on SVU
Speaker 5: in two thousand, Chris was on OZ and he was
Speaker 5: going back and forth like he'd shoot OZ on the weekend. Wow,
Speaker 5: that's twenty one years ago. So has his ass changed
Speaker 5: in twenty one years?
Speaker 4: I don't know.
Speaker 2: In rooftop there's kind of a classic SVU moment we
Speaker 2: would say where you know iced Tea purposely knocks down
Speaker 2: the purpse glasses and then gets to use them for DNA.
Speaker 2: And we were wondering what your favorite kind of SVU
Speaker 2: classic moments like that are.
Speaker 4: Oh, you mean like the straw trying to get people
Speaker 4: to drink soda.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's like, like I love that. Every
Speaker 2: time there's like a can, I'm like, don't drink.
Speaker 5: But pizza, you know, you know, giving them like salty, Hey,
Speaker 5: here's some chips. I think we did that, and it's
Speaker 5: like get them all like you know, parch so that
Speaker 5: they'll want something to drink, and then going through trash
Speaker 5: and we've done we did that, you know, so there's always.
Speaker 4: Like how do you get get somebody to spit at you?
Speaker 3: I mean it's like I think we did that in Rooftop.
Speaker 1: You know, they set it up so that ice well
Speaker 1: iced Tea sort of sets up the brother of this
Speaker 1: victim to attack the.
Speaker 3: Guy so that he bites him. And then when we
Speaker 3: were doing our research, there is kind of a famous
Speaker 3: case of this happening. Did you guys know about that?
Speaker 3: Was that like incorporated?
Speaker 4: Yes?
Speaker 5: Yes, because we're always we had and I presume they
Speaker 5: still do that.
Speaker 4: I don't know.
Speaker 5: We had a full time researcher, so literally just every
Speaker 5: day getting.
Speaker 4: New stuff, Like do you remember we did an episode about.
Speaker 5: A guy two different versions of this and two different episodes.
Speaker 5: A guy was a suspect and he gave his DNA
Speaker 5: his blood and it didn't match.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, we discussed this episode with.
Speaker 4: The two with two that's what.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 5: Yeah, so I read that story and I said, well,
Speaker 5: we've got to do that.
Speaker 4: So that tube guy was really like bizarre. And then the.
Speaker 5: Other version of it, in a sense was I remember
Speaker 5: talking to Michelle Fizikas and Tara Butters about this and saying, you, guys,
Speaker 5: this would be a really interesting episode where a guy
Speaker 5: gives his blood and he's not a match, but they
Speaker 5: know he's the perp.
Speaker 4: And the answer was he'd had.
Speaker 5: A bone mirror transplant, right because he had had cant
Speaker 5: he had had leukemia, and so his blood is not
Speaker 5: going to match his his uh saliva or other other things,
Speaker 5: so that's how you know. And then of course the
Speaker 5: famous one with the you know based on doctor Money.
Speaker 4: Where you don't know which they're.
Speaker 5: Identical twins at birth even though one had a botched
Speaker 5: circumcision and so you don't get their their DNA matches.
Speaker 1: We just did that one because the fans that was
Speaker 1: our most requested identity was like our most requested episode.
Speaker 5: So funny story is I have these friends who are
Speaker 5: twins in La the Inton twins, Edmund and Gary.
Speaker 4: And they looked really familiar to me when I met them,
Speaker 4: like at a.
Speaker 5: Dinner and I said, you guys look really familiar and
Speaker 5: I'm like really, and I said, you know, you try
Speaker 5: to figure out, like where did I meet you? It
Speaker 5: turned out they auditioned for the twins.
Speaker 2: So yeah, I was wondering in terms of like the
Speaker 2: victims injuries, is that like makeup and here is that direction?
Speaker 3: Is that like come off your notes? And how do
Speaker 3: you decide what they're going to look like?
Speaker 4: So it's a collaborative effort.
Speaker 5: We have what's called a constant meeting that we do
Speaker 5: right after the script comes out, and the director has
Speaker 5: seven or eight days of prep. So they prep for
Speaker 5: seven days and then they shoot for eight nine days,
Speaker 5: sometimes a little bit more.
Speaker 4: Depending on what the episode is.
Speaker 5: And sometimes we do what's called crossboarding, or we'll shoot
Speaker 5: two episodes.
Speaker 4: At once or tandeming.
Speaker 5: So we did that's how we did so many episodes
Speaker 5: some years is that we'd have Ice and Belzer doing
Speaker 5: a scene. We'd have mrsch and Chris doing a scene,
Speaker 5: then Rushtan Bellser doing a scene and Chris and Ice
Speaker 5: doing a scene, and we'd be shooting two episodes at once,
Speaker 5: so we have more more shows that season. I don't
Speaker 5: think they do that anymore. It was really hard to do,
Speaker 5: but it was fun.
Speaker 4: And so.
Speaker 5: In terms of makeup, all of these things are discussed
Speaker 5: in the concept meeting, so everybody is there, every department head,
Speaker 5: So the director, the directing producer so during my time
Speaker 5: the eleven years was Ted Kotcheff, the line producer, David
Speaker 5: de Clerk, Gail Barringer, so they're in charge of the budget,
Speaker 5: the locations person Trisha Aldessik, and then hair, makeup and wardrobe.
Speaker 4: And so when we have certain elements like a look.
Speaker 5: Of someone that would need like prosthetics or things like that,
Speaker 5: we would have sidebar conversations after we had read through
Speaker 5: the script with all of the department heads to really talk.
Speaker 5: In particular, like when we when Stephanie left the show
Speaker 5: the first time because she got blown up, we had
Speaker 5: a lot of conversation that had to blow up the car,
Speaker 5: and then I knew we had planned that it was
Speaker 5: she was put into witness protection, but you know, we
Speaker 5: didn't want to give that away right away because we thought,
Speaker 5: you know, Stephanie might want to come back, you know,
Speaker 5: and they all keep coming back over and over.
Speaker 4: You know, tomorrow Tindi comes back, and you.
Speaker 5: Know, they all they all come back, so unless they're
Speaker 5: killed like Mike Doyle's character, you know, when Stucky, when
Speaker 5: Stucky killed him, you know, we had to have a
Speaker 5: sidebar for that, like you know, the blood and all that.
Speaker 4: Sort of stuff when we stabbed him. Are we killed
Speaker 4: Sister Peg? I love si.
Speaker 3: Oh when you killed Sister Peg?
Speaker 2: Well, wildly, that's one of our friend's girlfriends. He texted me, going,
Speaker 2: my girlfriend's the one that like Stabler shot. I'm like,
Speaker 2: are you kidding me? You're dating Royalty. Speaking of bringing
Speaker 2: people back, they recently just did like Born Psychopath and
Speaker 2: they did ten years later. Is there any episodes during
Speaker 2: your time that you would love to see a continuation on?
Speaker 4: There are so many, Like in terms of when you
Speaker 4: do a show that's not really in the sort of
Speaker 4: full consciousness of the audience like we did the first
Speaker 4: show about giving a.
Speaker 5: Trans teenager hormone blockers, and so that was with Aisha Hines.
Speaker 4: That episode, I remember she played the principal.
Speaker 5: I'd like to see what happened like with that kid,
Speaker 5: because that was not even talked about.
Speaker 4: Because I'm a pediatrician, I knew about it.
Speaker 5: But you know, a good example would be from a
Speaker 5: different show where when I did ER, I worked with
Speaker 5: Gloria Rubin, who was on SPU of course as an
Speaker 5: attorney US attorney.
Speaker 4: She did like the story.
Speaker 5: She did a story, a really good one about sex
Speaker 5: trafficking kids in the US. So I asked John Wells
Speaker 5: on ER if you would bring Gloria back in year fourteen,
Speaker 5: the year before ER ended. She left in year five
Speaker 5: I think of R and he did, and he showed
Speaker 5: her as a physician, a physician assistant who was doing well.
Speaker 5: She had HI she was HIV positive, but she was
Speaker 5: taking medication.
Speaker 4: She was living a full, in active life.
Speaker 5: And people love seeing that, they love seeing that sort
Speaker 5: of positive side. So it'd be interesting, you know, to
Speaker 5: bring you know, if they could bring Belzer back or
Speaker 5: something too. You know, we brought we brought on his
Speaker 5: wife from homicide Carol Kine psychon in an episode because
Speaker 5: you know, I just think it's fun.
Speaker 4: So that's kind of.
Speaker 5: An illustration of that where we brought someone back in
Speaker 5: a sense from another show. Because Belser's character much had
Speaker 5: this continuat line.
Speaker 4: Through many different shows, and so we were able to
Speaker 4: do that we brought back.
Speaker 5: For instance, we brought Marlee Matlin back because Belzer loved.
Speaker 4: Working with her.
Speaker 5: She was nominated for an Emmy for her, so we
Speaker 5: brought her back, and so we would do that.
Speaker 4: Marcia day Harden, we love, so we brought her back.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we but for the Marley Maitland. So there are
Speaker 2: characters you could tell really at a bond. So that
Speaker 2: was written or did you see their vibe on set
Speaker 2: or it was just both.
Speaker 5: Saw on the vibe. No plan to have Marlee twice.
Speaker 5: But Richard loved working with her and he was like, wow,
Speaker 5: I just really you just said it. I vibed with
Speaker 5: her that we just said we got to bring it
Speaker 5: back and we'll make it really sad.
Speaker 1: We have a bunch of these questions from our audience
Speaker 1: and we can just ask them to you and if
Speaker 1: you want to just pass, just say pass or not
Speaker 1: doesn't make.
Speaker 3: Sense or whatever.
Speaker 1: So so one person asked, what is the biggest medical
Speaker 1: inconsistency in SVU.
Speaker 4: That the DNA comes back so quickly.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's an easy one.
Speaker 5: I mean because with Mike Doyle's character and Tamartine's character,
Speaker 5: they were.
Speaker 3: Like so quick.
Speaker 4: But but I don't think that we made stuff up.
Speaker 5: We were using the best technology that existed at the time.
Speaker 4: I think I mentioned this before that.
Speaker 5: SBU is really an amazing historical assessment of what's available.
Speaker 4: And the show kept using new techniques.
Speaker 5: So when I started, they had blackboards and then went
Speaker 5: to dry erase boards, and then we went to cell phones,
Speaker 5: and we went to GPS, and then we were taking
Speaker 5: iPads out to the scene, and so that kept refreshing
Speaker 5: the show in a way because we had new technology
Speaker 5: that moved us forward.
Speaker 4: But technology is a lot quicker. You get responses more quickly.
Speaker 1: You see this in Rooftop Too, where Stabler finds this
Speaker 1: remembers this line from an old case and he's like,
Speaker 1: this is from before we were really doing DNA testing.
Speaker 1: So and now it's like a few years later and
Speaker 1: it's like, Okay, let's put the DNA in the system.
Speaker 1: So interesting. Yeah, you're right, it is a little bit
Speaker 1: not like a time capsule, but yeah, like a historical document.
Speaker 3: Yeah, a document. Yeah.
Speaker 6: So did you ever have to change an episode last minute?
Speaker 5: Before I came on the show, there was an episode
Speaker 5: that I'll only remember. It was called Taken and Rishka
Speaker 5: has like a pacifier around her neck and a lot
Speaker 5: of glitter.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, she's like in a raver over that.
Speaker 5: So so the show turned out to be like twelve
Speaker 5: minutes too short. It was just like and it was
Speaker 5: kind of in this infraim period where there was no showrunner,
Speaker 5: and then I came on and we had to figure
Speaker 5: out how we couldn't just throw it out and so
Speaker 5: and you know, Dick has Dick Wolf has sort of
Speaker 5: very specific ideas of how he wants things to go,
Speaker 5: like no flashbacks, no, you know, speaking directly into the camera,
Speaker 5: all of these rules. I said, well, you know, I
Speaker 5: have an idea. He goes, do whatever you want. So
Speaker 5: we shot for literally around the clock all night long
Speaker 5: to get it done. And we have these it's the
Speaker 5: only time I think you'll see it. We have these
Speaker 5: interviews with each of our characters, Marishka, Benson, Stabler, Munch,
Speaker 5: Finn Craigan and they're like being interviewed. It's all interwoven
Speaker 5: into the show because we didn't have the money to
Speaker 5: go back out and shoot, reshoot, you know, and start over.
Speaker 5: Of course it's really expensive, so we just did these
Speaker 5: like strange talking to the camera interviews.
Speaker 3: It weren't it was it was Dick Mattens.
Speaker 4: No, he was like, oh that's great. It's like it's like,
Speaker 4: whatever it takes, do it.
Speaker 6: So what was the most controversial ending to an episode?
Speaker 4: The one with Shannon Sossiman and Billy Campbell.
Speaker 3: Oh, actually that was.
Speaker 5: Insane and it was like we find the defendant and
Speaker 5: then people are did something happened in my television?
Speaker 3: I know, you're like, my DV hour is broken?
Speaker 4: And is no, you got to figure out what you
Speaker 4: think this is why?
Speaker 5: You know this is obviously before me too, But it
Speaker 5: was you know, we wrote it so.
Speaker 4: That both you you would believe or disbelieve.
Speaker 5: Both of them, right, So that really pissed off a
Speaker 5: lot of people.
Speaker 1: I think just because you have us years and years
Speaker 1: with everything getting wrapped up in a bow on these episodes,
Speaker 1: even if it's a bad bow, Like even if you're
Speaker 1: like Oh my god, that's horrific or that's not what
Speaker 1: I wanted to happen, Like you always know what happens,
Speaker 1: and that's the first episode where you're like, I have
Speaker 1: to think for myself.
Speaker 4: No.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and it's like so maybe I'll maybe they'll come
Speaker 5: back and Billy Camp will be uh, you know, arrested
Speaker 5: again for doing the same thing, and you'll figure it out.
Speaker 5: You could actually kind of go back to that story
Speaker 5: and see what happened and whether or not he had
Speaker 5: ether there, you know, people coming out and saying that
Speaker 5: he had done something similar.
Speaker 4: You could do that right, and then you could give
Speaker 4: you could tie a boat on it.
Speaker 2: Are there any episodes you look back on and you're like,
Speaker 2: with now societal norms like changing that you kind of
Speaker 2: cringe out or you wish you could change or adapt.
Speaker 3: That's an audience question.
Speaker 5: Yeah, not really, I mean because some of its time.
Speaker 5: And so you know when we talked about should we
Speaker 5: have made Stabler as aggressive though that was his character,
Speaker 5: So that came up a lot during you know, the
Speaker 5: whole conversation about police and so that was something that
Speaker 5: you know, they're thinking about a lot on Blown Over
Speaker 5: Organized Chrome Now and they're actually addressing that with his character.
Speaker 5: So so there's that. But in terms of something that feels,
Speaker 5: you know, I think I would do more sort of
Speaker 5: rooftop like show was probably more exploration of the racial bias,
Speaker 5: racial inequities, if you know, we had we had on
Speaker 5: our show more female writers than male writers for most
Speaker 5: of the seasons.
Speaker 4: That I ran the show.
Speaker 5: So I think that that was a really that perspective
Speaker 5: was really welcome and a good thing.
Speaker 4: And you know, we had.
Speaker 5: African American writer, female writer Julia McCrary who wrote the
Speaker 5: most intense episodes. She wrote the ludicrous episodes and all
Speaker 5: of the really intense shows. You know, the writers had
Speaker 5: kind of specialties of intensity or more humor, or.
Speaker 4: More sort of.
Speaker 5: Family kind of things, So I would assign things different
Speaker 5: stories based on that the writer's personalities often as well.
Speaker 2: Have you ever been sued or had any legal action
Speaker 2: threatened from like a ripped from the headline situation where
Speaker 2: someone came after you, guys, or was mad not you,
Speaker 2: Neil Bear?
Speaker 3: Obviously No.
Speaker 5: We had one incident that I'll say is that it
Speaker 5: had to do with the show.
Speaker 4: The view.
Speaker 1: Okay, oh okay, I'm like writing this down to do
Speaker 1: you know an episode this is.
Speaker 3: Okay, We'll leave it at that. A lot of our
Speaker 3: questions have to do with everybody being obsessed with Obviously,
Speaker 3: Benson and Stable are getting back together. The tension between
Speaker 3: them is back in the news kind of because of
Speaker 3: organized crime, and you know now his wife has passed
Speaker 3: and everything.
Speaker 1: In your twelve years on the show or eleven years
Speaker 1: on the show, were you ever tempted to make an
Speaker 1: Olivia sorry Benson Stabler romance happen.
Speaker 4: No, but I gave everybody what they wanted when we
Speaker 4: put Mush in.
Speaker 5: Her bron pennies and Belonging in his underwear, very famous
Speaker 5: hide the monkey in the ball wildlife, So that was
Speaker 5: like what everybody wanted wildlife. Yes, everybody wanted to happen,
Speaker 5: So that was purposely written that way.
Speaker 1: There's another question from a listener that I actually never
Speaker 1: thought of it that I wonder if you have any
Speaker 1: info on, Like somebody asked, what precautions are taken when
Speaker 1: child actors have to do like these intense scenes about abuse.
Speaker 4: It's a really good question.
Speaker 5: One of another favorite episode is the one I think
Speaker 5: this has been listed like in the top ten SPUs
Speaker 5: and Judy wrote this one. This is about the girl
Speaker 5: thinks with Aiden Quinn, phenomenal actor place.
Speaker 1: Oh yes, phenomenal, the girl that has the perfect pitch.
Speaker 4: She has Williams syndrome.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, so that's you know, she has a genetic
Speaker 5: syndrome where she kind of repeats what she hears.
Speaker 4: And it was really interesting.
Speaker 5: I think there's a lot of conversation with the director
Speaker 5: and the parents because the parents are on the set
Speaker 5: and protecting I know. I remember we were doing a
Speaker 5: scene on the Er with Michael Michelle who did that.
Speaker 4: Another is the.
Speaker 5: Judmcreating another the one where Blair Underwood what burns her?
Speaker 5: Eric Lasaul directed that episode. Michael was on Er and
Speaker 5: I remember a little girl asking her some question about
Speaker 5: something about because she has she somebody's talking about something sexual.
Speaker 4: And I remember Michael Michelle.
Speaker 5: Saying, honey, you're gonna have to ask your mother about that.
Speaker 4: But that but for a scene like an.
Speaker 5: SBU, we've had, you know, we've had kids parents say
Speaker 5: they won't let their kids do scenes, which is their
Speaker 5: right to do, and we want to make sure that
Speaker 5: the kids feel comfortable and all of that. So there's
Speaker 5: a lot of conversation with the director particularly and the
Speaker 5: parents because parents are on the set and you know,
Speaker 5: the kid, she's work only a small amount. And also
Speaker 5: we have to be very careful of what we do
Speaker 5: so that we don't traumatize the kid. So right, So
Speaker 5: oftentimes we'll cast someone who is older than that age
Speaker 5: as another way around that, because we really it's not
Speaker 5: about like getting the best performance from some seven year old.
Speaker 5: It's like maybe we need to have somebody who's older.
Speaker 5: Maybe we have to write it a little bit differently
Speaker 5: so that it's not traumatizing to the kid.
Speaker 4: We don't want to do that.
Speaker 1: Well, a new You told us last time we spoke
Speaker 1: to you that you know, a lot of the episodes
Speaker 1: came from you know, you reading sort of like a
Speaker 1: medical journal or an article about some.
Speaker 3: New thing and you know, finding out about cases.
Speaker 1: So has there been anything that you've read about since
Speaker 1: you left the show that you're like, this would make
Speaker 1: a great best for you.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 5: And I actually told Peter Jenkeski and I don't know
Speaker 5: you'll know if they did this or not, but I
Speaker 5: heard about a rapist who was suing to have custody
Speaker 5: drunk custody of the child.
Speaker 3: Yes, they did do that.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 4: And I called Peter and.
Speaker 5: I said, you got to do this because I can't
Speaker 5: believe we didn't do this. But and now they've passed
Speaker 5: laws that you can't Yeah. Wow, Like whoa, It was like,
Speaker 5: that's so I certainly that was the one story that
Speaker 5: really got me like, oh my gosh, that would have
Speaker 5: made an incredible SVU. But I but I went to
Speaker 5: Peter and I called him, said, hey, you guys should
Speaker 5: do this, and here's the story.
Speaker 1: Iran, especially with like Benson's character, having her background that
Speaker 1: she has, Like, you know, if your father had wanted
Speaker 1: to sue for custody of you, would that appear exactly?
Speaker 4: So you could just see what, yeah, where that would go?
Speaker 3: Right?
Speaker 4: That would like, you know, an intense episode.
Speaker 3: I forgot. Do you still watch the show ever? Do
Speaker 3: you catch it here and there or not?
Speaker 4: Really? No, I haven't. I decided when I left ER.
Speaker 5: I did ER the first seven years and I thought,
Speaker 5: you know, it was so wonderful. I got to work
Speaker 5: with amazing actors and the same with SVU for eleven
Speaker 5: and so I just wish from the best, but I just.
Speaker 4: Move on to another show.
Speaker 5: So then I did a gift A man with Patrick Wilson,
Speaker 5: but that was only on for years.
Speaker 4: There's nothing else to watch it.
Speaker 5: And I did Under the Dome and that was three
Speaker 5: years and done, so there's nothing else to watch. And
Speaker 5: then I did Designate It, but I did the end
Speaker 5: of Designated. So I did watch the first two years
Speaker 5: of Designated because I'd never been in a position where
Speaker 5: I was taking well, I take that back, Sbu. I
Speaker 5: did watch the first season. I had watched the pilot
Speaker 5: and a few of them because Murska had been on
Speaker 5: R and were very close.
Speaker 4: And so I wanted to see what was going on.
Speaker 5: But I didn't have any idea I was going to
Speaker 5: be on SVU, so I didn't watch all of season one.
Speaker 3: But seasons thirteen through twenty two are a mystery to you.
Speaker 2: Well, I wonder if we could even ask it, So,
Speaker 2: without seeing the show for this long, how would you like?
Speaker 2: Can you even answer? How would you end it? How
Speaker 2: do you see SVU atver ending?
Speaker 4: Well, I mean that's the obvious, though you know there.
Speaker 5: Has to be some twist I would imagine to get there,
Speaker 5: but it'd be interesting to bring as many people back
Speaker 5: as possible as well.
Speaker 1: So we were wondering has anyone ever been. Have you
Speaker 1: ever written a character off the show other than for
Speaker 1: contractual reasons, like you ever just been like we got
Speaker 1: to write this person off.
Speaker 5: Yeah, not for contractual reasons, but just for storytelling. So
Speaker 5: the answer would be I called the wonderful actor Christine Lottie.
Speaker 4: And I said, we have I love you, I have
Speaker 4: another episode for you. It's that great.
Speaker 5: And she was so good on the show, and I said,
Speaker 5: and we're going to do something that I think you've.
Speaker 4: Never done before as an actor. And she's like, uh.
Speaker 5: Oh, what is that, Christine? And she goes, You're going
Speaker 5: to kill me? And I said yes, and she's like,
Speaker 5: you know, and I said, I was kind of looking
Speaker 5: and thinking about all of your work and I don't
Speaker 5: recall you ever being killed. You've done tough stuff, you know,
Speaker 5: and beautiful, beautiful film she did called Housekeeping, which if
Speaker 5: you haven't seen, is amazing based on the.
Speaker 4: Novel. She's just incredibly good in it. And so I said, yeah,
Speaker 4: we're going to.
Speaker 5: Kill you because we have Debra messing on and this
Speaker 5: whole kind of thing going on, and we just want
Speaker 5: this like the emotionality of it, and you've had this
Speaker 5: kind of relationship with Benson that stirred up issues about
Speaker 5: her mother. So she has this intense emotionality with your character.
Speaker 4: So that was a character. And also Mike Doyle, it
Speaker 4: was like, yeah.
Speaker 5: You know, and then the New York Times did an
Speaker 5: article about how many times he'd been killed off on shows.
Speaker 3: And then I just saw him in this movie called
Speaker 3: The Invitation where he gets murdered pretty badly as well.
Speaker 3: I love that movie.
Speaker 5: You know that happens to Mike, but he's wonderful actor.
Speaker 5: So and Stucky.
Speaker 3: He's the most hated character.
Speaker 2: I mean, William Lewis obviously so scary, but people hate Stucky.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he really irks people. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Well you mentioned Deborah Messing, which you know like her
Speaker 2: and marishkar are really good friends. Are there any cases
Speaker 2: where one of the main actors is like, can we
Speaker 2: just have my friend on?
Speaker 3: Like I want Deborah on?
Speaker 4: Yeah? Cool, Maria Hello? Oh whoa Yeah, fantastic episode. Oh
Speaker 4: my god, with the guy.
Speaker 1: With Calvin, that whole that was how we first started
Speaker 1: the Benson motherhood journey.
Speaker 5: And the guy who played her horrible father was from
Speaker 5: Full Metal Jacket.
Speaker 4: He was the sergeant in Full Metal Jacket.
Speaker 5: So Maria and mursh are very very close friends, and
Speaker 5: so we said, we got to get Maria on and
Speaker 5: do something really intense, and so we did.
Speaker 3: Is right, what are you working on now before we
Speaker 3: all go?
Speaker 4: I have a show that's going to be on, but
Speaker 4: I can't say what it is.
Speaker 3: Okay, okay, it's going to be on.
Speaker 5: I can't even say it's going to be on. I
Speaker 5: have an unscripted show that's going to be on in
Speaker 5: the fall. Really, so well, would you talk about it
Speaker 5: and it's on? It's going to be fun.
Speaker 3: I can't come back on when you're doing. You do
Speaker 3: that and tell us about it, and I would love it. Wow.
Speaker 1: Neil Bear, the legend, the man the meth, the legend
Speaker 1: that was so great, the Barriers of great Scoop. Yes, always,
Speaker 1: he always has great info for us.
Speaker 2: Just to bragge all of you, we did get a
Speaker 2: few off the record statements from him so.
Speaker 3: That we weren't allowed to put on the pod. Unfortunately
Speaker 3: we can't share, but know that he spilled some tea maybe.
Speaker 3: And if you guys are interested, we have one little
Speaker 3: extra tidbit on our Instagram. If you're not following us
Speaker 3: on Instagram, get over to That's messed Up pod on
Speaker 3: Instagram so that you can hear one last piece of
Speaker 3: scoop from Neil. But let's jump into our post mortem
Speaker 3: for Rooftop. What did we learn? What a dark episode?
Speaker 1: I mean, if a man tells you that you can dialogue,
Speaker 1: now it's time to walk out the door.
Speaker 3: It's time to leave.
Speaker 2: I was gonna say, if you really need evidence in
Speaker 2: a case, just hop on over and bite somebody.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, get their skin in your teeth. Yeah.
Speaker 2: From now on, now we know how to get DNA, Like,
Speaker 2: start a fight, get their DNA all over you, and
Speaker 2: go straight to a medical examiner.
Speaker 3: And I guess.
Speaker 1: Also, another thing we've learned is that if you don't
Speaker 1: want your DNA taken, you can just say you're a
Speaker 1: Jehovah's witness.
Speaker 2: Yep, that's you know, a lot of DNA evidence, I
Speaker 2: mean lessons. Yeah, why do I seem like I feel
Speaker 2: like I'm drunk but I'm not. I don't know. Also,
Speaker 2: racism sucks. Police suck, Yeah, suck.
Speaker 3: The government sucks. So that's something I'll say.
Speaker 1: It does feel like after watching this episode, though, it does,
Speaker 1: it does feel like we've come like a long way
Speaker 1: in terms of like stigma against AIDS. You know, like
Speaker 1: I feel like now more people accept that AIDS is
Speaker 1: not a death sentence. It's not like the kind of
Speaker 1: thing where you like shun people that have it. I mean,
Speaker 1: I have friends with HIV. Like, it's just not a
Speaker 1: thing that you need to you know, shy away from
Speaker 1: talking about or you know, no, it's.
Speaker 2: Really a john. I mean, most of this country is
Speaker 2: an embarrassment stain. But the way this country and Reagan
Speaker 2: and everyone handled.
Speaker 3: AIDS is so fucked up.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's really not even talked about how much
Speaker 2: of a fuck up that was, and how many people
Speaker 2: we like friendly but Woods talks about this and more.
Speaker 3: People that are smarter and no more.
Speaker 2: But it's like we truly lost the generation of people
Speaker 2: mm hmm. And that's what's happening now where people are like, ah, fuck,
Speaker 2: there's not enough job people want to sit on unemployment.
Speaker 2: Why is there a shortage of employees? And it's like
Speaker 2: I didn't think about this, but the Internet told me
Speaker 2: six hundred thousand people died gonna create some shortages, you
Speaker 2: know what I mean.
Speaker 3: Like people are so selfish.
Speaker 2: And self centered that it's like we haven't even thought about,
Speaker 2: like the reason there might be a shortage of certain
Speaker 2: jobs is because people fucking died. Yeah, you know, we
Speaker 2: just ignore it and like the whole aids like so
Speaker 2: so many talented, incredible people died and it's fucked up.
Speaker 2: It's like the Holocaust. It's like we lost generations of people.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I just speaking of the Emmys, what we
Speaker 1: were talking about earlier, very nominated the show pose like
Speaker 1: they really jump dive into that and you really get
Speaker 1: a sense of like how devastating it was in the
Speaker 1: eighties and nineties.
Speaker 2: Like yeah, and then everyone is like shading you. Doctors
Speaker 2: probably don't want to work on you, No whe understands it.
Speaker 2: You're treated like shit. It's it's just like devastating. You're
Speaker 2: like dying of a disease and no one cares, and
Speaker 2: then they blame you for it and think you're like
Speaker 2: a demon because you have it.
Speaker 3: Yeah. I don't know if that's what I got from
Speaker 3: this episode.
Speaker 1: No, I was just noticing that, like, you know, that
Speaker 1: episode just seems like a little bit like dated almost
Speaker 1: in the way that they like talk about HIV and like,
Speaker 1: you know, what we learned from this Nashan Williams case
Speaker 1: and everything. It's just it's like, it feels like we've
Speaker 1: made some strides. I don't think it's totally non discriminated against,
Speaker 1: but you know, I think we've made some strides.
Speaker 3: Well.
Speaker 1: That leads us kind of perfectly right into what would
Speaker 1: Sister Peg do?
Speaker 3: This week?
Speaker 1: This is our weekly segment where we highlight an institution
Speaker 1: or an organization that you can get more information from
Speaker 1: or donate to. And today we are highlighting the Black
Speaker 1: AIDS Institute. It's Blackaids dot Org and the Black Aids Institute.
Speaker 3: They also go by Bai So.
Speaker 1: Bai's mission is to stop the AIDS epidemic in black
Speaker 1: communities by engaging and mobilizing Black institutions and individuals to
Speaker 1: confront HIV. SO and another what was Sister Peg resource?
Speaker 1: We have two for for you this week. There is
Speaker 1: a book if you're interested in learning more about the
Speaker 1: Nashaun Williams case. There is a book called Notorious HIV
Speaker 1: The Media Spectacle of Nashaun Williams by Thomas Chevery and
Speaker 1: that is available wherever books are sold, mostly Amazon, if
Speaker 1: you like and if you're interested in learning more about
Speaker 1: the Nashaw Williams case.
Speaker 3: And join us.
Speaker 2: Next week, we will be covering the episode Peak That's
Speaker 2: p i q u e Wild Season two, Episode twenty Hulu, Peacock,
Speaker 2: the Library, all that Jazz. So enjoy watching, do your
Speaker 2: homework and we'll see you next week.
Speaker 3: Bye bye. That's Messed Up is an Exactly Right production.
Speaker 1: If you have compliments you'd like to give us or
Speaker 1: episodes you'd like us to cover, shoot us an email
Speaker 1: at That's Messed Up Pod at gmail dot com.
Speaker 2: Follow the podcast on Instagram at That's Messed Up Pod
Speaker 2: and on Twitter at messed Up Pod, and follow us
Speaker 2: personally at Karaklank.
Speaker 3: And at glitter Cheese.
Speaker 1: As always, please see our show notes for sources and
Speaker 1: more information.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much to SBU superfan and our incredible producer,
Speaker 2: Hannah Kyle Kraton.
Speaker 1: And to our sound engineer and personal hero Anali Snilson,
Speaker 1: and to.
Speaker 3: Henry Kaperski for our theme song, to Carly Jean Andrews
Speaker 3: for our artwork.
Speaker 1: Thanks to our executive producers Georgia Hardstar, Karen Kilgarriff, Daniel Kramer,
Speaker 1: and everybody at Exactly Right Media.
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