1 00:00:04,600 --> 00:00:07,680 Speaker 1: So the big question is this, how do investors like 2 00:00:07,880 --> 00:00:11,800 Speaker 1: us get access to the ideas, information, and most importantly, 3 00:00:12,039 --> 00:00:14,880 Speaker 1: the right people that give us the tools and information 4 00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:19,000 Speaker 1: we need to make informed and educated decisions to have success. 5 00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:22,319 Speaker 1: That is the question, and this podcast will give us 6 00:00:22,400 --> 00:00:25,480 Speaker 1: the answers. This is Mark Moss, your host. Let's get 7 00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:29,880 Speaker 1: this started. Welcome to another episode of the Market Disruptors podcast. Today, 8 00:00:29,920 --> 00:00:32,519 Speaker 1: I'm sitting down with Dan Handem here is the CEO 9 00:00:32,760 --> 00:00:35,839 Speaker 1: of zen Ledger, which is a cryptocurrency tax company. Is 10 00:00:35,840 --> 00:00:39,280 Speaker 1: also the c IO of Handhem Capital Management. He's got 11 00:00:39,280 --> 00:00:42,960 Speaker 1: a long track record inside the financial system, inside Wall 12 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:45,440 Speaker 1: Street as well, has going way back into the early 13 00:00:45,479 --> 00:00:49,880 Speaker 1: days of cryptocurrencies. Um super insightful information that we talked about, 14 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:53,600 Speaker 1: different risk management strategies, different ways to look at bitcoin 15 00:00:53,640 --> 00:00:56,800 Speaker 1: and other crypto assets. We dive into the taxes of course, 16 00:00:56,880 --> 00:00:59,520 Speaker 1: and so many other good topics. A really good conversation. 17 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:01,560 Speaker 1: I really joined it and you will too, So let's 18 00:01:01,560 --> 00:01:04,360 Speaker 1: go ahead and jump right into it. Everyone. Welcome to 19 00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:07,920 Speaker 1: another episode of the Market Disruptors show. I am sitting 20 00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:10,959 Speaker 1: down today with Dan Junam. He is the CEO of 21 00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:15,000 Speaker 1: zen Ledger, which is a tax management solution. He's also 22 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:17,760 Speaker 1: the c i O Chief Investment Officer of an UM 23 00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:23,560 Speaker 1: Capital Management, which is a crypto management company asset asset company. Anyway, Dan, 24 00:01:23,680 --> 00:01:27,080 Speaker 1: We've had several good conversations, including before we hit record 25 00:01:27,120 --> 00:01:29,440 Speaker 1: on this right now, but always a pleasure to talk 26 00:01:29,480 --> 00:01:33,600 Speaker 1: to you. Welcome, absolutely, Mark, It's pleasure to be here. So, UM, 27 00:01:33,800 --> 00:01:35,520 Speaker 1: we were just kinda were talked about a bunch of 28 00:01:35,560 --> 00:01:37,399 Speaker 1: different subjects before we went live. We were just kind 29 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:40,520 Speaker 1: of um starting to talk about, UM, some of the 30 00:01:40,720 --> 00:01:45,760 Speaker 1: problems that some of these crypto asset companies management companies 31 00:01:45,800 --> 00:01:52,040 Speaker 1: have because they don't have the traditional investment knowledge or background. UM. 32 00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:54,400 Speaker 1: And you're about to tell me about your background, So 33 00:01:54,440 --> 00:01:56,720 Speaker 1: why don't we start with why don't you introduce yourself 34 00:01:56,760 --> 00:01:58,880 Speaker 1: to people who don't know who you are? Yeah, happy 35 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:02,440 Speaker 1: to UM. So my backgrounds largely traditional finance. Went to 36 00:02:02,520 --> 00:02:05,160 Speaker 1: the University of South Carolina, UM, got my NBA there, 37 00:02:05,680 --> 00:02:07,320 Speaker 1: went up to New York and started working at Goldman 38 00:02:07,320 --> 00:02:10,919 Speaker 1: sax and Morgan Stanley was there for about three years 39 00:02:11,200 --> 00:02:13,560 Speaker 1: UM until it was introduced to a couple of buddies 40 00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:17,040 Speaker 1: that were starting to work very heavily in the crypto 41 00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:20,440 Speaker 1: industry and was able to get a position at Blotching 42 00:02:20,520 --> 00:02:23,520 Speaker 1: Capital H so left New York, went out to the 43 00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:26,680 Speaker 1: West Coast and really kind of had to forget a 44 00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:28,960 Speaker 1: lot of the things that I learned UM on traditional 45 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:33,040 Speaker 1: asset management and kind of understand how to not only 46 00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:36,720 Speaker 1: look at a crypto project, but look at kind of 47 00:02:36,760 --> 00:02:38,760 Speaker 1: what are what are the right tools, right, are the 48 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:41,120 Speaker 1: right teams, right, are the right skill sets, what's the 49 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:44,919 Speaker 1: right timing, especially from a venture perspective UM to really 50 00:02:44,919 --> 00:02:48,800 Speaker 1: be able to allocate capital efficiently into into the crypto industry. 51 00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:51,880 Speaker 1: So was there for about two years, really learned a 52 00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:54,080 Speaker 1: lot of like the ins and outs UM. This was 53 00:02:54,160 --> 00:02:59,639 Speaker 1: in late fourteen, almost like early sixteen UM, so at 54 00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:02,200 Speaker 1: that time there really wasn't that many funds in the space. 55 00:03:02,200 --> 00:03:04,480 Speaker 1: There really wasn't that many projects that were actually seeking 56 00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:08,600 Speaker 1: venture capital UM, so it was a really good opportunity 57 00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:11,760 Speaker 1: to kind of broaden out the network, really learn about 58 00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:15,440 Speaker 1: crypto in general, learn about venture specific to crypto, and 59 00:03:15,480 --> 00:03:19,600 Speaker 1: then really just start building out that rolodex of of partners, teammates, 60 00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:22,440 Speaker 1: co investors, and things like that. UM then was at 61 00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:25,160 Speaker 1: the right place at the right time in early tuzen sixteen, 62 00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:27,520 Speaker 1: UM when I was around a couple of high networth 63 00:03:27,560 --> 00:03:31,160 Speaker 1: individuals that were looking to gain exposure to the crypto industry. 64 00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:34,840 Speaker 1: Kind of figure to be the best timing that I 65 00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:36,680 Speaker 1: probably would get to be able to venture out on 66 00:03:36,720 --> 00:03:38,640 Speaker 1: my own and kind of start my own fund and 67 00:03:39,080 --> 00:03:40,840 Speaker 1: be able to use some of the learnings that I've 68 00:03:40,880 --> 00:03:42,840 Speaker 1: had along the way. UM so were able to start 69 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:45,560 Speaker 1: our first fund back then. UM had four LPs in 70 00:03:45,600 --> 00:03:48,240 Speaker 1: the first fund, same four in our second fund. Haven't 71 00:03:48,320 --> 00:03:55,040 Speaker 1: raised any capital outside capital since probably October, and I've 72 00:03:55,040 --> 00:03:58,080 Speaker 1: been managing that capital based for our LPs ever since. 73 00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:01,120 Speaker 1: UH like you mentioned, were worth venture specifics that we 74 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:04,120 Speaker 1: don't invest in liquid assets or we're not day trading 75 00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:06,960 Speaker 1: or anything like that. So we're typically looking for seed 76 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:10,400 Speaker 1: or Series A startups in the crypto space, crypto specific 77 00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:14,040 Speaker 1: UM that are either providing infrastructure or providing ways to 78 00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:17,320 Speaker 1: either be onboarded or off boarded into UH into crypto. 79 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:19,839 Speaker 1: And then also how do we not only get people 80 00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:21,800 Speaker 1: in crypto, but once they're in there, how do they 81 00:04:21,920 --> 00:04:24,520 Speaker 1: use different services and different products and different features to 82 00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:27,599 Speaker 1: really kind of map out that ecosystem. So that's large 83 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:30,120 Speaker 1: to what we're doing day to day UM on the 84 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:32,600 Speaker 1: cent leader side joined the team about nine months ago. 85 00:04:33,160 --> 00:04:36,320 Speaker 1: They just raised UH five and a half million dollar 86 00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:39,200 Speaker 1: seed round UM and we're building out a crypto tax 87 00:04:39,240 --> 00:04:43,320 Speaker 1: platform UM as UH not only as an investor through 88 00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:45,159 Speaker 1: the fund, but as a personal investor. I was always 89 00:04:45,200 --> 00:04:48,080 Speaker 1: looking for a platform to use that could aggregate all 90 00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:50,760 Speaker 1: of my trades through all of different wallets and API 91 00:04:50,839 --> 00:04:53,240 Speaker 1: s and things like that, and and looking at some 92 00:04:53,279 --> 00:04:55,839 Speaker 1: of the different providers, they, in my opinion, provided the 93 00:04:55,839 --> 00:04:58,880 Speaker 1: best software and UM. I'd always been looking to kind 94 00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:01,680 Speaker 1: of get my hands dirty UM on the entrepreneurial side 95 00:05:01,680 --> 00:05:03,520 Speaker 1: and kind of use some of these skills and and 96 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:06,000 Speaker 1: things that I acquired on the investment side UM to 97 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:08,680 Speaker 1: apply it towards the business and kind of a good 98 00:05:08,680 --> 00:05:12,680 Speaker 1: fit in in a good timing to to join the team. Awesome. Awesome, 99 00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:17,160 Speaker 1: Well that's a quite a diverse background. So we were 100 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:22,000 Speaker 1: talking about UM how recently a couple of one big 101 00:05:22,040 --> 00:05:26,000 Speaker 1: notable fund, Adaptive Capital, kind of decided to close up shop. UM. 102 00:05:26,080 --> 00:05:29,760 Speaker 1: Some other ones are UM potentially closing up shop here 103 00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:35,760 Speaker 1: as well, and they've ran into some problems. Obviously running 104 00:05:35,760 --> 00:05:38,440 Speaker 1: out of money, I guess is the big problem. UM. 105 00:05:38,520 --> 00:05:40,720 Speaker 1: And we were talking about how UM, it was a 106 00:05:40,760 --> 00:05:45,120 Speaker 1: little bit shocking because you know, even though they supposedly 107 00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:48,000 Speaker 1: we're doing really really well, they kind of lost big 108 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:52,880 Speaker 1: and how like, UM, traditional finance uses more risk management 109 00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:55,960 Speaker 1: and hedging and things like that. UM, what were your 110 00:05:56,000 --> 00:06:00,640 Speaker 1: thoughts on that? Yeah, I mean the first thing that 111 00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:03,760 Speaker 1: I would say is, I think you need to be 112 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:05,840 Speaker 1: an Indian before you can be a chief per se. 113 00:06:06,040 --> 00:06:09,120 Speaker 1: And I think like I wouldn't be able to allocate 114 00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:11,640 Speaker 1: capital like I do now without going through those steps 115 00:06:11,640 --> 00:06:14,360 Speaker 1: and not being the boss but being the lowman on 116 00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:16,839 Speaker 1: the totem pole. So started off my career as an 117 00:06:16,880 --> 00:06:20,279 Speaker 1: analyst and really understanding how to how to properly analyze 118 00:06:20,279 --> 00:06:22,880 Speaker 1: the company, how to look through cash floads and and 119 00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:26,039 Speaker 1: different metrics that we use through the firm. So I 120 00:06:26,040 --> 00:06:28,640 Speaker 1: think that was something that really helped me out, is 121 00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:31,800 Speaker 1: really kind of putting the ego aside and really just 122 00:06:32,040 --> 00:06:36,160 Speaker 1: learning being a sponge and understanding how large institutions that 123 00:06:36,200 --> 00:06:39,159 Speaker 1: are managing trillions of dollars of capital really work and 124 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:43,600 Speaker 1: the reasons other than the O A O eight bailout, 125 00:06:44,080 --> 00:06:46,720 Speaker 1: they're typically pretty smart about how to be very risk 126 00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:50,320 Speaker 1: risk adverse. UM, I need deploy risk how to how 127 00:06:50,320 --> 00:06:53,040 Speaker 1: to properly allocate that and and use that in your 128 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:56,039 Speaker 1: model to see kind of where that risk factor is UM. 129 00:06:56,120 --> 00:07:00,600 Speaker 1: So long a story short. I think having experience UM 130 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:02,800 Speaker 1: in traditional markets kind of gives you a framework and 131 00:07:02,839 --> 00:07:05,359 Speaker 1: a structure to learn from UM. So I think my 132 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:08,680 Speaker 1: experience in traditional finance and then through botching capital of 133 00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:11,080 Speaker 1: not actually allocating capital but just doing a lot of 134 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:14,280 Speaker 1: the gruntwork really helped me kind of understand the process 135 00:07:14,280 --> 00:07:16,640 Speaker 1: and understand the right and wrong things to do. I 136 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:19,640 Speaker 1: don't have direct details as far as adaptive and what 137 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:23,160 Speaker 1: risk management they had or had not UM, as I'm 138 00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:25,760 Speaker 1: sure we've seen, it doesn't sound like there was much 139 00:07:25,880 --> 00:07:30,440 Speaker 1: risk management or UM or some hedging ability. So I 140 00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:32,400 Speaker 1: guess my my my take from that is, I think 141 00:07:32,440 --> 00:07:36,640 Speaker 1: having having experienced UM at an established firm before you 142 00:07:36,640 --> 00:07:39,840 Speaker 1: start your own can really publie some of the problems 143 00:07:39,840 --> 00:07:41,480 Speaker 1: and issues that that some of these funds are now 144 00:07:41,560 --> 00:07:45,080 Speaker 1: running into. I know, UM, you know on that day 145 00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:47,520 Speaker 1: when bitcoin took that nasty plunge, the day the whole 146 00:07:47,520 --> 00:07:50,920 Speaker 1: market took that nasty plunge, Bitcoin took that nasty plunge, 147 00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:53,800 Speaker 1: and you know it's been reported that UM a lot 148 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:56,200 Speaker 1: of that was caused by bought trading, which I think 149 00:07:56,240 --> 00:08:00,680 Speaker 1: happened across every market, traditional markets as well. UM, and 150 00:08:00,760 --> 00:08:04,080 Speaker 1: it's specifically really hit Bitcoin hard. A lot of that 151 00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:06,640 Speaker 1: might have been with bit Mex having some problems I 152 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:10,280 Speaker 1: think as well, there was reports of their exchange going down. UM. 153 00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:13,880 Speaker 1: Do you think that like losing Adaptive and maybe a 154 00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:17,560 Speaker 1: couple of these other funds might help bitcoin in the 155 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:19,880 Speaker 1: long run where you don't have all these people constantly 156 00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:24,840 Speaker 1: trying to pile on the shorts. I think. I think 157 00:08:24,880 --> 00:08:28,320 Speaker 1: it's like a two sided answer. UM. I think in 158 00:08:28,360 --> 00:08:31,520 Speaker 1: the in the short run it might, um distance we're 159 00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:34,560 Speaker 1: kind of hitting some interesting price levels and and and 160 00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:38,200 Speaker 1: seeing some different support and resistant mestrics. UM. But I 161 00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:41,480 Speaker 1: think long term, I think in my opinion that the 162 00:08:41,520 --> 00:08:43,640 Speaker 1: more people that we have looking at these models. I 163 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:48,800 Speaker 1: know we talked talked about before Chris Berninsky and his 164 00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:51,120 Speaker 1: book Cryptogothts, I think the more people that are willing 165 00:08:51,160 --> 00:08:53,679 Speaker 1: to share their learnings and share how they're thinking about 166 00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:56,200 Speaker 1: the markets and share what models are using, helps other 167 00:08:56,200 --> 00:08:58,520 Speaker 1: people use those models and adapt them and build on them. 168 00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:01,040 Speaker 1: So I think we're kind of in the space where 169 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:04,240 Speaker 1: you need Unfortunately to have some people fail for the 170 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:08,240 Speaker 1: the entire asset space to move forward. Um, it's kind 171 00:09:08,240 --> 00:09:10,160 Speaker 1: of like the way I look at it. So I 172 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:12,880 Speaker 1: think they're the in the adaptive sense. I think that 173 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:15,320 Speaker 1: the entire team is really smart. I think they'll all 174 00:09:15,400 --> 00:09:16,760 Speaker 1: land on their feet, and I think they'll learn a 175 00:09:16,800 --> 00:09:19,160 Speaker 1: lot from this scenario, which I think will eventually move 176 00:09:19,559 --> 00:09:23,480 Speaker 1: not only their ability to have better risk management protocols, 177 00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:27,520 Speaker 1: but then also the entire like investor spectrum, will will 178 00:09:27,600 --> 00:09:31,520 Speaker 1: continue to adapt um no pun intended, but continue to 179 00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:35,360 Speaker 1: adapt and evolve, and we'll get better models and better people. UM. 180 00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:36,800 Speaker 1: So I think there's a lot of good that came 181 00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:41,319 Speaker 1: out of it. UM. I guess that's my take on it. Yeah, yeah, 182 00:09:41,400 --> 00:09:44,199 Speaker 1: good stuff. I'm curious, like, so, you've been in this 183 00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:46,360 Speaker 1: space for quite a while. I think you said you 184 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:49,280 Speaker 1: went to blockchain Capital and like two thousand fourteen or 185 00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:51,880 Speaker 1: two thousand fifteen. I mean that's super early on. That 186 00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:54,679 Speaker 1: was like basically just Bitcoin at the time. I mean, 187 00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:58,079 Speaker 1: etheroryum maybe just starting to surface. Um, maybe you're starting 188 00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:00,120 Speaker 1: to see a coin base or something like that pop 189 00:10:00,280 --> 00:10:02,200 Speaker 1: up super early. It's hard to remember that far back, 190 00:10:02,240 --> 00:10:05,920 Speaker 1: even UM, and then you go through you know, the 191 00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:11,839 Speaker 1: really boom where there was you know, tokens dropped into 192 00:10:11,880 --> 00:10:15,240 Speaker 1: the market. I think today there's like five thousand or something. 193 00:10:15,280 --> 00:10:18,400 Speaker 1: I can't even keep track anymore. But I'm curious how 194 00:10:18,559 --> 00:10:22,760 Speaker 1: your thought processs changed, um, going back from that time 195 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:26,600 Speaker 1: at block Blockchain Capital UM through to now having your 196 00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:29,800 Speaker 1: own fun going through and to today. And I guess 197 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:32,560 Speaker 1: specifically to kind of bring that question down, how has 198 00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:34,800 Speaker 1: it changed in a sense where like it seemed like 199 00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:38,760 Speaker 1: the technology was so new and the opportunities were so big. 200 00:10:39,160 --> 00:10:42,400 Speaker 1: But to me, it seems like today the clear winners 201 00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:46,319 Speaker 1: have kind of emerged and I don't see the two 202 00:10:46,360 --> 00:10:49,080 Speaker 1: thousand coins having an open plane field anymore. I'm just 203 00:10:49,120 --> 00:10:52,680 Speaker 1: curious what your viewpoint is on that. Yeah, no interesting question. 204 00:10:52,679 --> 00:10:55,360 Speaker 1: I mean when I was at Blocking Capital, I worked 205 00:10:55,360 --> 00:10:57,360 Speaker 1: with Brock and day Or while it's on master coin, 206 00:10:57,440 --> 00:10:58,920 Speaker 1: which is one of the first I c O s 207 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:01,160 Speaker 1: ever um, so kind of being on the front lines 208 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:03,560 Speaker 1: of that was an interesting glimpse into how to raise 209 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:05,920 Speaker 1: nonvolute of capital and how to kind of structure that 210 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:08,120 Speaker 1: in the right way. I think that was like a 211 00:11:08,160 --> 00:11:12,319 Speaker 1: really fascinating experience. Uh. The way that I kind of 212 00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:15,040 Speaker 1: sum it up is I think people start off with bitcoin, 213 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:20,079 Speaker 1: then they expand because what they see is inefficiencies instead 214 00:11:20,120 --> 00:11:21,600 Speaker 1: of trade offs. And I think that's the way that 215 00:11:21,640 --> 00:11:24,280 Speaker 1: I view it is there's calculated trade offs between what 216 00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:26,360 Speaker 1: bitcoin is and what bitcoin isn't. And I think people 217 00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:29,960 Speaker 1: were always talking about scalability or throughput or kind of 218 00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:32,520 Speaker 1: all these other metrics of what bitcoins should be or 219 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:36,680 Speaker 1: trying to adapt like Satoshi's messages back on Bitcoin Forum 220 00:11:36,720 --> 00:11:39,120 Speaker 1: and two thousand nine, two thousand ten and say this 221 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:41,080 Speaker 1: is what this means, and this is what that means. 222 00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:43,520 Speaker 1: So I think there's just a lot of money being 223 00:11:43,520 --> 00:11:46,199 Speaker 1: thrown at different projects. I think there's a lot of 224 00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:48,400 Speaker 1: people trying to solve different aspects kind of at the 225 00:11:48,400 --> 00:11:51,160 Speaker 1: same time. UM. But what I've tend to see is 226 00:11:51,200 --> 00:11:54,679 Speaker 1: people kind of start off with bitcoin, explore into all coins, 227 00:11:54,760 --> 00:11:57,240 Speaker 1: and then typically kind of find their way back into bitcoin. 228 00:11:57,280 --> 00:11:58,839 Speaker 1: And I think they kind of do that once you 229 00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:02,760 Speaker 1: start understanding be calculated trade offs in the calculated um 230 00:12:03,160 --> 00:12:07,120 Speaker 1: descisions of why bitcoin is what it is. UM. Yeah, 231 00:12:07,520 --> 00:12:09,400 Speaker 1: hopefully they answered some of that. I mean, that's that's 232 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:11,400 Speaker 1: that's that's a good response. And I was talking to 233 00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:15,559 Speaker 1: someone about that earlier where you know, uh, what is better, right, 234 00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:18,560 Speaker 1: what features are you optimizing for? And so if you're 235 00:12:18,559 --> 00:12:22,480 Speaker 1: optimizing for censorship, resistance and mutability, um and things like that, 236 00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:24,960 Speaker 1: then I mean than bitcoin. If you're trying to optimize 237 00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:28,360 Speaker 1: for throughput, then maybe something else, right. But I think 238 00:12:28,400 --> 00:12:30,840 Speaker 1: at the same time, right, I think if you understand 239 00:12:30,960 --> 00:12:33,240 Speaker 1: the way technology cycles work, and you know, you go 240 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:36,160 Speaker 1: back and study them throughout history, Uh, they kind of 241 00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:39,080 Speaker 1: moving predictable patterns, and so you know the newest, the 242 00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:41,080 Speaker 1: most recent one, like the Internet, and it was super 243 00:12:41,120 --> 00:12:44,480 Speaker 1: slow in the beginning, and every time you got faster, 244 00:12:44,840 --> 00:12:46,760 Speaker 1: the band was got sucked up because more stuff got 245 00:12:46,880 --> 00:12:49,160 Speaker 1: put onto it. Uh. And we still have that problem 246 00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:50,600 Speaker 1: today and now five G is gonna come out and 247 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:53,719 Speaker 1: make it even faster, etcetera. Um, So there's never enough 248 00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:56,439 Speaker 1: band with and I think, you know bitcoin, we've seen 249 00:12:56,480 --> 00:12:59,800 Speaker 1: that next layer now where now with lightning we have 250 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:05,880 Speaker 1: unlimited throutput for no cost um. So all those people 251 00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:08,840 Speaker 1: that were faster and cheaper, like, did they lose their 252 00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:13,800 Speaker 1: their use case? As you think it's consolidated around bitcoin now, Uh, 253 00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:16,120 Speaker 1: I think it's like it's multi fasciting because I think 254 00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:20,239 Speaker 1: a lot of the the founders quote unquote or engineers 255 00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:22,680 Speaker 1: of these protocols and of these coin types. I think 256 00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:25,360 Speaker 1: what they were looking for is an exit back into FIA. 257 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:29,240 Speaker 1: So they were looking to release whatever ABC coin, enough 258 00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:31,800 Speaker 1: people involved and then be able to have an exit 259 00:13:31,840 --> 00:13:37,000 Speaker 1: event where they could accelerate their their wealth through that liquidity. UM. 260 00:13:37,080 --> 00:13:38,600 Speaker 1: So I think that's kind of like the one thing 261 00:13:38,679 --> 00:13:40,520 Speaker 1: that I look at as well is a lot of 262 00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:42,960 Speaker 1: people in bitcoint I'm sure you know are are not 263 00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:46,040 Speaker 1: really looking at bitcoin returns in the sense of dollar values, 264 00:13:46,080 --> 00:13:48,240 Speaker 1: but truly in the sense of having kind of bitcoin 265 00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:51,240 Speaker 1: become the standard and and being able to use to totis, 266 00:13:51,280 --> 00:13:53,560 Speaker 1: to to accept, to be able to operate and things 267 00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:56,120 Speaker 1: like that. So, like you said, whether it's Lightning network 268 00:13:56,200 --> 00:13:58,719 Speaker 1: or other layer two technologies, UM, there's a lot of 269 00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:01,320 Speaker 1: stuff being built on the core protocol UM, which I 270 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:05,280 Speaker 1: think is really fascinating for me. But so I think 271 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:08,000 Speaker 1: that's kind of one of the steps is I think 272 00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:10,600 Speaker 1: as you see in a lot of quote unquote gold rush, 273 00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:13,120 Speaker 1: as you see people come in and try to kind 274 00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:16,600 Speaker 1: of use the market um and accelerate their own approaches, 275 00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:19,040 Speaker 1: And so I think that's kind of like one piece 276 00:14:19,160 --> 00:14:22,640 Speaker 1: is just just seeing a lot of teams that came 277 00:14:22,680 --> 00:14:25,000 Speaker 1: in and um and kind of knew that they could 278 00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:27,600 Speaker 1: have a have a token sail and then kind of 279 00:14:27,680 --> 00:14:31,320 Speaker 1: dump on resaiale and rents and repeat and do that again. Um. 280 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:35,720 Speaker 1: Since the beginning of time, they've been trying to do alchemy, right, 281 00:14:35,760 --> 00:14:39,040 Speaker 1: trying to turn a lead into gold. And so I 282 00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:41,480 Speaker 1: think that continues today, right, always trying to do that. 283 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:44,840 Speaker 1: We were talking about before we went live, we were 284 00:14:44,880 --> 00:14:49,360 Speaker 1: talking about, you know, the virus that's affecting everything right now. Um. 285 00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:52,760 Speaker 1: It pretty much dominates every conversation. You can't seem to 286 00:14:52,760 --> 00:14:55,720 Speaker 1: talk to anybody without talking about it right now. Um. 287 00:14:55,760 --> 00:14:59,480 Speaker 1: And there's so many different impacts to everything, from the 288 00:14:59,520 --> 00:15:01,360 Speaker 1: way that we're working to the way that we're making money, 289 00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:04,840 Speaker 1: customer base. When the recovery blah blah blah. Um. But 290 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:07,640 Speaker 1: when we've gone through other crashes like this in the past, 291 00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:09,800 Speaker 1: like well not not virus induced, but like in two 292 00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:14,760 Speaker 1: thousand and eight for example, UM, the reaction of the FED, 293 00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:19,120 Speaker 1: the reaction of the central banks to government, et cetera. Um, 294 00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:22,160 Speaker 1: you know, seems to then make a further use case 295 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:24,480 Speaker 1: for gold, which has been a sound money that's on, 296 00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:28,080 Speaker 1: you know, on manipulated, not not able to be manipulated. 297 00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:31,360 Speaker 1: And in two thousand and eight, based off that response, 298 00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:34,480 Speaker 1: we were given bitcoin. And it seems like today we're 299 00:15:34,480 --> 00:15:37,840 Speaker 1: seeing the same thing, right, unlimited quee. They they've called 300 00:15:37,880 --> 00:15:41,200 Speaker 1: for now you know, two trillions, six trillion dollars stimulus, 301 00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:43,480 Speaker 1: ten trillion, who knows, thirty chillion fire by the time 302 00:15:43,520 --> 00:15:47,840 Speaker 1: they're done um And and at the same time, they're 303 00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:51,560 Speaker 1: kind of proving the use case of bitcoin because they're 304 00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:53,440 Speaker 1: inflating the money supply at the same time. And at 305 00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:56,640 Speaker 1: the exact same time, we're gonna witness bitcoin reduce its 306 00:15:56,640 --> 00:15:59,720 Speaker 1: inflation rate. Do you think that's gonna be like a 307 00:15:59,760 --> 00:16:01,840 Speaker 1: big kind of marketing push, maybe a big wake up 308 00:16:01,840 --> 00:16:06,560 Speaker 1: call for the market. Yes, in the sense that I 309 00:16:06,560 --> 00:16:09,120 Speaker 1: think that the people that I've been paying attention are, 310 00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:11,880 Speaker 1: or typically the people that I understand the significance of 311 00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:15,239 Speaker 1: the having impact even yesterday of having the mining difficulty 312 00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:18,760 Speaker 1: UM decreased. So I think there's a lot of things 313 00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:21,320 Speaker 1: that are like in the weeds of where the general 314 00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:25,520 Speaker 1: public may not understand the significance UM. I I personally 315 00:16:26,120 --> 00:16:28,040 Speaker 1: come from the sense, as we talked about kind of 316 00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:31,640 Speaker 1: at the beginning of the conversation is I don't truly 317 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:34,200 Speaker 1: believe that enough people are gonna say, Okay, here's my 318 00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:36,400 Speaker 1: seven hundred bucks or my twelve bucks, and I'm gonna 319 00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:38,960 Speaker 1: put it all into bitcoin. They're they're gonna pay their bills, 320 00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:41,640 Speaker 1: they're gonna say for rent, They're gonna hopefully be a 321 00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:47,400 Speaker 1: little bit more um more prepared with with the next crisis, 322 00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:50,760 Speaker 1: for the next impact so um. So, I think that's 323 00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:53,360 Speaker 1: kind of like the first thing is, I think we 324 00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:55,880 Speaker 1: get a lot of hype in especially on crypto Twitter, 325 00:16:55,920 --> 00:16:58,400 Speaker 1: of everyone's gonna buy into bitcoin and this is the 326 00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:00,640 Speaker 1: best event, and like, what are the odds that this 327 00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:03,160 Speaker 1: happens during like the having moments and things like that. 328 00:17:03,320 --> 00:17:06,359 Speaker 1: So I think over time people will be able to 329 00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:10,080 Speaker 1: look back and kind of see what happens during the 330 00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:13,080 Speaker 1: next two to three to four months of bitcoin price 331 00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:15,800 Speaker 1: um and things like that. I just personally don't believe 332 00:17:15,840 --> 00:17:18,880 Speaker 1: that we're gonna see this like magical takeoff event where 333 00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:22,440 Speaker 1: everyone's gonna put in their their extra dollars into into bitcoin. 334 00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:25,000 Speaker 1: I just don't think enough people in the general public 335 00:17:25,080 --> 00:17:28,280 Speaker 1: have done enough research on bitcoin, the advantages that bitcoin 336 00:17:28,359 --> 00:17:31,639 Speaker 1: presents to gold, and especially I mean, you look at 337 00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:35,400 Speaker 1: that now people are index funds and the rest are 338 00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:39,520 Speaker 1: are using some sort of um of broker dealer to 339 00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:41,920 Speaker 1: to to make their trade and make their investments for them. 340 00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:44,480 Speaker 1: So I have a feeling that gold will probably see 341 00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:46,560 Speaker 1: a bounce before bitcoin does. But I think over time, 342 00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:49,120 Speaker 1: as we continue to educate the public on the tradeoffs 343 00:17:49,119 --> 00:17:52,160 Speaker 1: and the advantages of using bitcoin over gold, it's only 344 00:17:52,280 --> 00:17:54,920 Speaker 1: rational to believe that people will tryd to turn towards 345 00:17:55,119 --> 00:17:57,320 Speaker 1: a more sound form of money. And in my opinion, 346 00:17:57,320 --> 00:17:59,800 Speaker 1: there's no better sound form of money than bitcoin, or 347 00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:03,520 Speaker 1: a currency or money that has better monetary properties and values. 348 00:18:04,119 --> 00:18:06,159 Speaker 1: So I think over time we'll see that adoption. I 349 00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:08,159 Speaker 1: just I just don't know if in the middle of 350 00:18:08,200 --> 00:18:10,800 Speaker 1: this chaos, if enough people are going to go, you 351 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:13,080 Speaker 1: know what, I'd rather not pay my rent, I'm gonna 352 00:18:13,080 --> 00:18:15,440 Speaker 1: put in my twelve bucks into bitcoin. I just don't 353 00:18:15,440 --> 00:18:18,520 Speaker 1: see that happening. Yeah, I don't see that happening in 354 00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:21,400 Speaker 1: they in any world either, And I've I've often said 355 00:18:21,520 --> 00:18:24,560 Speaker 1: what I what I always say is don't confuse what 356 00:18:24,760 --> 00:18:28,199 Speaker 1: something is today from what it could be in the future. 357 00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:30,679 Speaker 1: It's like looking at like a three year old Lebron 358 00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:34,000 Speaker 1: James and going that kid's never gonna play basketball. That's ridiculous, right, Like, 359 00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:36,520 Speaker 1: don't confuse what they are now. This little tree is 360 00:18:36,560 --> 00:18:39,040 Speaker 1: not going to grow into a big tree. Um. And 361 00:18:39,320 --> 00:18:41,560 Speaker 1: I would agree that bitcoin is not ready. First of all, 362 00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:43,800 Speaker 1: the people right aren't ready, and bitcoin is not ready 363 00:18:43,840 --> 00:18:45,959 Speaker 1: to instantly just take over the world. It's not it's 364 00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:49,040 Speaker 1: not ready for that. Um, it's a gradual process. But 365 00:18:49,119 --> 00:18:52,919 Speaker 1: I think, um, you know, I think think about gold, right, 366 00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:54,960 Speaker 1: it's a tentrally into all our asset class, but yet 367 00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:57,840 Speaker 1: not that many people really talk about our own gold. 368 00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:01,520 Speaker 1: So it's not like we have to have global adoption 369 00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:04,439 Speaker 1: of bitcoin, like I mean, Gold's got ten chilion and 370 00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:07,600 Speaker 1: doesn't even have global adoption, right, So, um, we don't 371 00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:09,359 Speaker 1: need that. But I think it will be interesting to 372 00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:11,640 Speaker 1: see these things happening in real time. And I think 373 00:19:12,080 --> 00:19:16,120 Speaker 1: what I guess specifically I'm more thinking about, is um, 374 00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:19,480 Speaker 1: you you were talking about before we went live, Um, 375 00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:22,000 Speaker 1: the virus and what's going on, and you talked about 376 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:24,200 Speaker 1: like the loss of a lot of our civil liberties, 377 00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:28,159 Speaker 1: and um, we're losing a lot of freedom, a lot 378 00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:30,840 Speaker 1: of liberties and a lot of areas. Um, a lot 379 00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:33,359 Speaker 1: of them relating to money, right, So they're inflating the 380 00:19:33,359 --> 00:19:37,639 Speaker 1: money supply infinitely infinitely and at the same time tightening 381 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:41,199 Speaker 1: up banking laws and restrictions. And we're seeing around the 382 00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:44,320 Speaker 1: world then getting rid of cash. Right China supposedly picked 383 00:19:44,359 --> 00:19:46,880 Speaker 1: up six billion dollars for the cash and burned it. Um, 384 00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:50,760 Speaker 1: We're seeing places, uh right now in the US where 385 00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:53,040 Speaker 1: they don't want to accept cash. And then f D 386 00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:56,720 Speaker 1: I see even put out a press release yesterday reassuring 387 00:19:56,760 --> 00:19:58,640 Speaker 1: everyone to keep their money in the bank, which wasn't 388 00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:03,439 Speaker 1: very reassuring wild So do is it is? Is it 389 00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:07,440 Speaker 1: more of those events that start making people think maybe 390 00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:10,879 Speaker 1: I need a life raft here, like an alternative. Yeah. 391 00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:13,960 Speaker 1: I mean, I think, unfortunately, what typically happens is there's 392 00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:16,119 Speaker 1: some major event where people start questioning things, and I 393 00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:18,600 Speaker 1: think we we've just lived through such a prosperous time 394 00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:21,359 Speaker 1: and history where people didn't have to question things. Um, 395 00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:23,720 Speaker 1: you knew kind of if you were employed, you knew 396 00:20:23,720 --> 00:20:25,760 Speaker 1: that you're getting a paycheck, and you knew kind of 397 00:20:26,040 --> 00:20:27,800 Speaker 1: in a relative sense, you knew that you were somewhat 398 00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:30,399 Speaker 1: taken care of. So I think unfortunately you need some 399 00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:34,040 Speaker 1: of these kind of global aspects or global kind of meltdowns, 400 00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:37,360 Speaker 1: whether it's virus, whether it's um like the Great Financial 401 00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:40,720 Speaker 1: Crisis of eight ten, or even like after nine eleven. 402 00:20:40,760 --> 00:20:44,280 Speaker 1: I think people don't question things until they're confronted with them. 403 00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:46,440 Speaker 1: So I think when the effect of this it's people 404 00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:49,399 Speaker 1: are gonna start questioning more of who controls money? What 405 00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:52,119 Speaker 1: is money? How are how is this being asked? What 406 00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:55,080 Speaker 1: am I losing from this? And the amount of people 407 00:20:55,119 --> 00:20:57,560 Speaker 1: that just have no idea how money works is is 408 00:20:57,640 --> 00:20:59,439 Speaker 1: kind of shocking, but I think that's how the system 409 00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:01,960 Speaker 1: is a has been allowed to just continue to function 410 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:04,239 Speaker 1: because the no one questions it. So I think, in 411 00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:06,040 Speaker 1: my opinion that the best impact of this is are 412 00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:09,000 Speaker 1: people gonna start questioning what is money? How is this 413 00:21:09,119 --> 00:21:11,399 Speaker 1: being valued for me? And then going into like the 414 00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:14,160 Speaker 1: actual politics of this is people are starting to realize 415 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:16,280 Speaker 1: not only did you have kind of like Kelly Loffler 416 00:21:16,359 --> 00:21:19,000 Speaker 1: and some of the some of our own congressman and 417 00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:21,600 Speaker 1: senators in our in our state, but you've had people 418 00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:23,560 Speaker 1: that had closed doors meetings that came out and then 419 00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:26,360 Speaker 1: sold stock and made quite a bit of money on private, 420 00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:29,720 Speaker 1: confidential meetings that then became broadcast to the public. So 421 00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:32,679 Speaker 1: I think people are starting to lose trust in governments, 422 00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:37,200 Speaker 1: in money, in um in in in things that I 423 00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:39,119 Speaker 1: have always kind of been told to don't trust it 424 00:21:39,119 --> 00:21:40,880 Speaker 1: will work. And I think that's kind of the first 425 00:21:40,920 --> 00:21:43,160 Speaker 1: step of getting kind of what what's what's the TOSTI 426 00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:45,480 Speaker 1: said back in a eight of of kind of having 427 00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:48,919 Speaker 1: the the chance on the sense of brink um in 428 00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:51,679 Speaker 1: in like the original uh in the original block. So 429 00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:54,879 Speaker 1: I think one more Chancellor is on the brink of 430 00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:57,760 Speaker 1: it of a second bailout. Yeah. Um So, I think 431 00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:00,280 Speaker 1: when when when people start questioning that and they actually 432 00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:02,800 Speaker 1: starts seeing the impact on themselves, they'll start looking for 433 00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:05,880 Speaker 1: for better alternatives. And I think once you start down 434 00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:10,080 Speaker 1: the rabbit hole, you typically end up at bitcoin. Um So, 435 00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:13,320 Speaker 1: I guess that's kind of my take on it. Yeah, yeah, 436 00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:15,560 Speaker 1: I I agree, And I think I said this just 437 00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:17,879 Speaker 1: on an earlier interview, um that I think, you know, 438 00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:20,320 Speaker 1: even if bitcoin would have failed today, I think the 439 00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:22,960 Speaker 1: greatest gift that it's given everybody is that it's opened 440 00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:25,600 Speaker 1: up people's minds and has started people down this path 441 00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:28,800 Speaker 1: of of wanting to learn more and opening up and 442 00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:32,240 Speaker 1: thinking critically and things like that. So, um, there's there's 443 00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:35,119 Speaker 1: definitely something there. And uh, I just think that you know, 444 00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:38,560 Speaker 1: with everything with with this crisis that's going on, like uh, 445 00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:42,800 Speaker 1: it's it's accelerating things very rapidly. Like you said, people 446 00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:45,960 Speaker 1: weren't really thinking about this before, but now they are. Um, 447 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:47,840 Speaker 1: so all of a sudden, people are like, oh, shoot, 448 00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:49,840 Speaker 1: what about my money? Is my money even safe? I 449 00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:52,119 Speaker 1: don't know. I better go get money out right? But 450 00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:54,199 Speaker 1: then what so now I pull the cash out and 451 00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:56,160 Speaker 1: I put it in my mattress. Well that's dangerous because 452 00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:59,239 Speaker 1: what if my house gets robbed or what if none 453 00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:01,480 Speaker 1: of the stories will take like cash? So now I 454 00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:03,320 Speaker 1: went and pulled a hundred thousand dollars of cash out 455 00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:04,920 Speaker 1: the bank and now I can't spend anywhere in the bank. 456 00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:07,480 Speaker 1: Will let me deposit it back in? Yep? Now what 457 00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:12,000 Speaker 1: did I do? So people are fearful. We're seeing it. 458 00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:13,960 Speaker 1: That's why the fd i C made that that that 459 00:23:14,119 --> 00:23:17,480 Speaker 1: that video, um, and they're naturally going to be looking 460 00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:21,119 Speaker 1: for every option that they can think of. I agree, 461 00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:23,640 Speaker 1: and just a time in real quick. I think that's 462 00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:25,720 Speaker 1: another aspect of when you dig into like the gold 463 00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:28,639 Speaker 1: risk bitcoin analogy when people start researching like what happened 464 00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:31,000 Speaker 1: in nineteen thirty three and then what happened in nineteen 465 00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:33,679 Speaker 1: seventy one with gold of in thirty three are government 466 00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:37,200 Speaker 1: confiscating gold and not allowing private citizens to own gold 467 00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:39,359 Speaker 1: and then actually going off the gold standards. So like 468 00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:43,760 Speaker 1: there there's precedent for gold basically being used for for 469 00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:47,680 Speaker 1: monetary purposes and and for government purposes already, where there 470 00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:50,359 Speaker 1: hasn't been a use case where bitcoin has been mandatory, 471 00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:53,080 Speaker 1: and there's in my opinion, it's not possible for them 472 00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:56,280 Speaker 1: to confiscate bitcoin or confiscate that. So I just want 473 00:23:56,280 --> 00:23:57,720 Speaker 1: to time in on that as well, because I think 474 00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:00,840 Speaker 1: people will typically turn from fee to gold and then 475 00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:03,760 Speaker 1: gold to bitcoin. But I just don't think gold to 476 00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:05,199 Speaker 1: say that's a lot of people make it out to be, 477 00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:11,000 Speaker 1: especially given previous history of government acquisition and and basically 478 00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:14,600 Speaker 1: the government taking big taking gold out of out of 479 00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:17,960 Speaker 1: private citizens hands, which just happened before as well. Yeah, 480 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:21,600 Speaker 1: and there's there's definitely that risk. And then you have 481 00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:25,760 Speaker 1: the never ending manipulation of gold with paper contracts as well, 482 00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:29,480 Speaker 1: so you have that which is a problem as well. Um, 483 00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:31,760 Speaker 1: everything has risks, right, and you just have to understand 484 00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:33,120 Speaker 1: what those risks are. And that kind of goes back 485 00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:36,000 Speaker 1: to what we originally opened up with, which is risk management. 486 00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:41,920 Speaker 1: So for example, bitcoin has a much greater reward potential 487 00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:47,160 Speaker 1: than gold does, but it also has a higher risk level. Right, Um, 488 00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:50,720 Speaker 1: gold has a lower risk but also a lower return profile. 489 00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:55,879 Speaker 1: Cash has probably the lower risk and almost no return profile. 490 00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:59,040 Speaker 1: You're almost guaranteed to lose holding cash, but it's less risky. 491 00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:01,200 Speaker 1: But then the FDA c makes us feel like maybe 492 00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:03,520 Speaker 1: it's not. Um, So you just gonna have to understand 493 00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:06,880 Speaker 1: the different risk returns. Right, How how would you How 494 00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:09,320 Speaker 1: would you think is an easy framework for people to 495 00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:14,800 Speaker 1: kind of think about those risk reward reward profiles. Yeah? Um, 496 00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:16,960 Speaker 1: I mean that's that's a tough one. I think there's 497 00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:19,159 Speaker 1: there's so many different variables in play on each one 498 00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:21,439 Speaker 1: of them. Um. I mean when you think about like FIAT, 499 00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:24,119 Speaker 1: you look at there's a ton of countries overseas that 500 00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:27,200 Speaker 1: and now have negative interest rates where you literally lose 501 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:29,880 Speaker 1: money by storing it in a bank. Um, And people 502 00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:32,240 Speaker 1: aren't really questioning that yet. So are they gonna start 503 00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:34,159 Speaker 1: questioning it when it gets to one percent, five percent, 504 00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:38,080 Speaker 1: ten percent? Like so just holding fiat it's not the 505 00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:40,880 Speaker 1: safest thing, as we've seen UM with gold, Like you said, 506 00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:43,120 Speaker 1: not only the confiscate ability, I don't know if that's 507 00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:45,800 Speaker 1: even a word, UM, But then also, like you said, 508 00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:49,120 Speaker 1: this past week, we've seen multiple reports where people are 509 00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:52,640 Speaker 1: not satisfied with redeeming io us or paper receipts of gold, 510 00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:54,560 Speaker 1: and they want actual bullion and they want to actually 511 00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:56,919 Speaker 1: hold it, and they're not able to do that, and 512 00:25:56,960 --> 00:25:58,800 Speaker 1: that's throwing a big rench into the market. So I 513 00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:01,879 Speaker 1: think that's as as anyone in kind of crypto or 514 00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:03,639 Speaker 1: bitcoin has heard, not your keys, not your coins. I 515 00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:05,919 Speaker 1: think that's one of the best things about crypto is 516 00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:08,840 Speaker 1: the ability to use a bare asset and actually redeem 517 00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:11,119 Speaker 1: that acid and be the only one that can access 518 00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:13,880 Speaker 1: at I think that that kind of, in my opinion, 519 00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:17,359 Speaker 1: de escalate some of the risk involved UM. And I 520 00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:20,080 Speaker 1: think especially now as we've seen, whether it's six trillion, 521 00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:22,320 Speaker 1: whether it's ten trillion, whether it's twenty trillion, like, the 522 00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:24,399 Speaker 1: ability to print money is not going to stop, and 523 00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:26,919 Speaker 1: as we've seen over between the last twelve years, it 524 00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:29,879 Speaker 1: only continues and the next time something happens, we'll just 525 00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:31,920 Speaker 1: add on an extra couple of zeros to the end, 526 00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:36,040 Speaker 1: and and that that'll kind of continue to confiscate wealth 527 00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:37,679 Speaker 1: through that way. I'm sure you know if like the 528 00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:40,560 Speaker 1: contillion effect where kind of the new money flows to 529 00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:43,560 Speaker 1: UM to to the risk before it flows down to 530 00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:46,439 Speaker 1: the poor. So, like I said, I think there's a 531 00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:49,040 Speaker 1: ton of risk involved in bitcoin. It it's definitely not 532 00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:54,440 Speaker 1: UM not riskless. I think it's definitely very binary where 533 00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:57,200 Speaker 1: it's either going to failure, it's going to succeed. UM. 534 00:26:57,320 --> 00:27:00,359 Speaker 1: The the acceleration of how long will that take, I 535 00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:04,240 Speaker 1: think it's being influenced by some of these external factors. UM. 536 00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:07,920 Speaker 1: I personally believe that not only will my paper returns 537 00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:12,520 Speaker 1: or returns denominated in fiat accelerate and achieve better returns 538 00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:16,160 Speaker 1: through bitcoin anyways, UM, but I believe in a world 539 00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:18,840 Speaker 1: will where you will we will use bitcoin as the 540 00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:21,880 Speaker 1: monetary base UM and be able to transact whether it's 541 00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:24,639 Speaker 1: on layer to it, it's on lightning UM. There's a 542 00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:27,240 Speaker 1: ton of work being done to privacy as well. So 543 00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:30,320 Speaker 1: I think that's the The other aspect is you're seeing 544 00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:32,919 Speaker 1: the Japanese, you seeing the Chinese that are converting to 545 00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:36,119 Speaker 1: central bank digital currencies which are getting some applause, But 546 00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:38,240 Speaker 1: I think that's really another aspect of being able to 547 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:41,480 Speaker 1: track money, being able to turn off and on faucets 548 00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:44,679 Speaker 1: to individuals. We've seen a bunch of people get like 549 00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:47,200 Speaker 1: zero heads. We've seen countless times where people are d 550 00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:50,199 Speaker 1: platformed and they're de incentivized and they're demonetized where they 551 00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:53,120 Speaker 1: can accept funds. I think that's the beautiful part about 552 00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:56,560 Speaker 1: bitcoin is to to say it only works for criminals, 553 00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:59,040 Speaker 1: is to say it works for everyone. Um. You know 554 00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:02,119 Speaker 1: that that that proves the use case of it exactly. 555 00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:04,520 Speaker 1: So that's like the beauty of it is. In my opinion, 556 00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:07,199 Speaker 1: the risk has been the risk is apparent in the 557 00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:10,119 Speaker 1: traditional systems. It goes back to what we talked about earlier, 558 00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:15,000 Speaker 1: just there's not enough people who won give a give 559 00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:17,000 Speaker 1: a ship and then two are going to spend enough 560 00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:20,120 Speaker 1: time and energy to understand how the system works UM 561 00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:23,720 Speaker 1: and understand kind of the benefits at bitcoin um evolves. 562 00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:25,439 Speaker 1: But like I said, I think the people that do 563 00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:27,239 Speaker 1: take that road and take that time and go down 564 00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:29,679 Speaker 1: the rabbit hole, they tend to kind of swiftly go 565 00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:32,720 Speaker 1: back to bitcoin. So I know that's not uh, the 566 00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:34,960 Speaker 1: exact answer that you're looking for of kind of how 567 00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:37,200 Speaker 1: do we make this or what are the risks involved? 568 00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:39,320 Speaker 1: But in my opinion, I think there's more risk of 569 00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:42,160 Speaker 1: holding your your dollars and then there isn't holding U 570 00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:44,920 Speaker 1: t x O S or holding private keys to your bitcoin. Yeah, 571 00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:49,440 Speaker 1: all right, let's move into another topic that maybe you 572 00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:53,800 Speaker 1: have some good insight about, UM, and that is what 573 00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:59,000 Speaker 1: I believe is probably the number one barrier, well at 574 00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:01,760 Speaker 1: least one of the top bearer years to bitcoin adoption, 575 00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:07,760 Speaker 1: and that is taxes. UM. I don't like to spend 576 00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:11,680 Speaker 1: my bitcoin. Uh. Back in the seventeen days, I was, 577 00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:13,520 Speaker 1: I was tossing those bitcoin around like they are a 578 00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:15,520 Speaker 1: little chicklets, you know, and then all of a sudden 579 00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:16,880 Speaker 1: they're worth a lot of money, and they're like, what 580 00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:19,640 Speaker 1: did I do? I had so many bitcoin at one time. 581 00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:22,400 Speaker 1: I can't believe it, right, Um, And I've thought of 582 00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:24,600 Speaker 1: all the time I've spent bitcoin. Oh, here's a couple, 583 00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:26,520 Speaker 1: here's four bitcoin, there's five bitcoin, you know, when there 584 00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:29,200 Speaker 1: are a couple hundred bucks each. Um. But I never 585 00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:31,120 Speaker 1: replaced them, and now I don't have them. So I 586 00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:34,240 Speaker 1: never like to spend my bitcoin. But beyond that, I 587 00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:36,360 Speaker 1: would never want to spend bitcoin because it's a taxable 588 00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:39,200 Speaker 1: event every single time. So you know, the old you 589 00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:40,840 Speaker 1: know goes go buy a cup of coffee with it. 590 00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:42,080 Speaker 1: I go buy a cup of coffee, and now I 591 00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:44,160 Speaker 1: gotta figure out what was my cost basis and what 592 00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:45,880 Speaker 1: was my profit or loss, and then I got to 593 00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:48,000 Speaker 1: file a tax form. So that seems to be a 594 00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:52,160 Speaker 1: really big barrier. And seeing as zen Ledger handles the 595 00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:54,480 Speaker 1: tax implications, what do you think. Do you think that's 596 00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:59,080 Speaker 1: a big drawback or maybe an obstacle to bitcoin success? 597 00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:02,160 Speaker 1: I do, and I think, in my opinion, goes back 598 00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:04,800 Speaker 1: to research, and it goes back to people being educated 599 00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:07,080 Speaker 1: on the topic. And when you look at what bitcoin 600 00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:10,360 Speaker 1: or digital currency is being associated with right now, it's 601 00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:13,200 Speaker 1: being associated as property, not currency, not a commodity, not 602 00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:15,680 Speaker 1: a bond, out of stock, not of security. So in 603 00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:18,000 Speaker 1: that in itself, you start seeing a lot of these 604 00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:21,040 Speaker 1: aspects of of taxes involved. Whether it's at ten thirty 605 00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:23,680 Speaker 1: one like kind exchange, where in property you're able to 606 00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:26,560 Speaker 1: not have a capital gain or a tax will event 607 00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:29,360 Speaker 1: occur when you spot between properties. That's not the same 608 00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:31,880 Speaker 1: thing in crypto. So if you make a hundred trades 609 00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:34,680 Speaker 1: that's a hundred tax will events times up by tend by, 610 00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:38,000 Speaker 1: you know, so it adds up frequently. I think taxation 611 00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:41,720 Speaker 1: is a big aspecting crypto that leaves a lot to 612 00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:44,520 Speaker 1: be solved. I think what we try to do from 613 00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:47,600 Speaker 1: a Zalagy perspective is kind of play in the middle ground, 614 00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:49,360 Speaker 1: where we don't make the rules. We try to comply 615 00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:51,480 Speaker 1: with the rules and and provide software to allow people 616 00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:53,960 Speaker 1: who are willing to comply and are looking to pay 617 00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:56,560 Speaker 1: their taxes have the quickest and simplest and easiest way 618 00:30:56,600 --> 00:31:00,520 Speaker 1: to do so. UM. We work with coin Center. We spoken, 619 00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:01,760 Speaker 1: we were at the I R S sum it a 620 00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:03,640 Speaker 1: couple of weeks ago. So we're trying to work with 621 00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:06,120 Speaker 1: legislators to to get them to understand what this is 622 00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:08,480 Speaker 1: and what it's not and how to actually make proper 623 00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:12,000 Speaker 1: legislation and proper rules and guidance and that Really what 624 00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:15,680 Speaker 1: we first got was guidance back and then then a 625 00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:18,000 Speaker 1: little bit of guidance in the last couple of months 626 00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:21,880 Speaker 1: around virtual currencies. UM, but there hasn't really been like 627 00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:24,240 Speaker 1: a very thought out process of how are we gonna 628 00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:26,600 Speaker 1: how are we gonna tax this, and what's the most 629 00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:28,680 Speaker 1: efficient way to do so. Um, So I think that 630 00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:31,200 Speaker 1: kind of creates a problem. Um. But yeah, I mean, 631 00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:33,600 Speaker 1: I think the adoption of a bitcoin and other assets 632 00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:36,320 Speaker 1: is definitely hampered by the fact that you either have 633 00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:38,240 Speaker 1: to use a software like x Ledger or you have 634 00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:41,680 Speaker 1: to pretty much have meticulous records to calculate cost faces. 635 00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:43,480 Speaker 1: But I think we do a great job of of 636 00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:46,720 Speaker 1: is giving people the option of choosing between Hypho lifehone 637 00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:49,280 Speaker 1: fi fiel, which canna have a great impact on your 638 00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:52,840 Speaker 1: What was that you said? Hypo fifione and life felt 639 00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:55,360 Speaker 1: so highest and first out last and first out and 640 00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:57,400 Speaker 1: first and first out, which is like the three common 641 00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:02,160 Speaker 1: accepted accounting methods in cryptotaxation. Um. And that can have 642 00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:04,600 Speaker 1: a big change on things too, Like you said, for 643 00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:08,880 Speaker 1: some of our for some of our like bigger clients, 644 00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:13,760 Speaker 1: um that I've been participating in cryptosin fourteen, they bought 645 00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:16,520 Speaker 1: a lot of their bitcoin at eighty bucks a hundred bucks, 646 00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:19,560 Speaker 1: two hundred bucks. So when when they're transacting that five 647 00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:22,400 Speaker 1: dollars for their coffee, that's the cost basis of between 648 00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:24,760 Speaker 1: the eighty bucks that they purchase the after that and 649 00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:28,640 Speaker 1: let's say the six seven, whatever round number lists to 650 00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:30,800 Speaker 1: make it ten grand that they sold that aster that 651 00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:33,200 Speaker 1: So even the accounting method can change because you can 652 00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:35,240 Speaker 1: have highest in verse out, which will take the highest 653 00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:37,360 Speaker 1: coin that you bought and be the cost basis for 654 00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:40,160 Speaker 1: that exchange. So there's different things that we do on 655 00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:42,920 Speaker 1: from like an accounting standpoint that can actually alleviate some 656 00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:46,240 Speaker 1: of those cost basis concerns. Tax loss harvesting is a 657 00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:48,760 Speaker 1: big thing where you can actually write off assets that 658 00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:50,840 Speaker 1: are at a loss that will offset any capital games 659 00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:53,440 Speaker 1: that you have. So there's some like very intuitive and 660 00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:56,920 Speaker 1: pretty kind of advanced accounting methods that you can use 661 00:32:56,960 --> 00:32:59,080 Speaker 1: to kind of offset some of your gains and things 662 00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:01,400 Speaker 1: like that. But like I said, in my opinion, I 663 00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:03,040 Speaker 1: think it stems from the fact that the I R 664 00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:06,040 Speaker 1: S doesn't have and it's not a question of do 665 00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:08,560 Speaker 1: they have manpower, do they budget, but do they have 666 00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:13,320 Speaker 1: the the the ability to kind of think outside the 667 00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:16,320 Speaker 1: box and really understand what they're doing, And in my opinion, 668 00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:18,240 Speaker 1: they haven't been able to do that yet and we're 669 00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:21,040 Speaker 1: still using guide ins at five six years old. That 670 00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:24,120 Speaker 1: doesn't really apply to what a virtual currency or digital 671 00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:28,480 Speaker 1: currency should be accounted as from an accounting perspective, So 672 00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:32,240 Speaker 1: um was zen ledger M, I guess it would hook 673 00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:34,120 Speaker 1: into my wallet. So let's say that I had like 674 00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:37,440 Speaker 1: a hot wallet on my phone and somehow I could 675 00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:40,320 Speaker 1: integrate with that, so then I could transfer half a 676 00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:43,960 Speaker 1: bitcoin or whatever on my wallet. So it's that's like 677 00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:46,200 Speaker 1: that'd be essentially like going to the bank and withdrawing 678 00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:47,560 Speaker 1: cash and putting it, like going to the a t 679 00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:49,480 Speaker 1: M putting cash in my wallet, and now I have 680 00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:51,200 Speaker 1: a little bit of walking around money and as I 681 00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:55,120 Speaker 1: go spend um, it's creating taxable events on everything. But 682 00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:57,680 Speaker 1: would zen ledger then be able to capture all that 683 00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:01,200 Speaker 1: and go, oh coffee and newspaper and T shirt and 684 00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:04,360 Speaker 1: then like figure all that out for me. Yeah. So 685 00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:09,040 Speaker 1: we we support over four hundred different exchanges over different 686 00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:11,560 Speaker 1: coin types and every single wallet type, so it makes 687 00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:13,200 Speaker 1: it super easy for you to come in. Most of 688 00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:15,480 Speaker 1: the largest exchanges, we have one click API s with 689 00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:18,719 Speaker 1: so like coin based finance crack in bitmas, most of 690 00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:21,080 Speaker 1: those bigger exchanges, you can come in and quickly have 691 00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:23,560 Speaker 1: a one click API integration which will draw in all 692 00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:26,240 Speaker 1: of your historical data. Same thing with a wallet address. 693 00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:29,200 Speaker 1: I think that's one of the beautiful parts about bitcoin 694 00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:31,319 Speaker 1: is is using a wallet address, you can use block 695 00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:33,560 Speaker 1: explorers and other things to actually look and see exactly 696 00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:36,439 Speaker 1: what's happened throughout that address, where funds were sent, when 697 00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:39,480 Speaker 1: they were received, the value blah blah blah blah blah um. 698 00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:42,200 Speaker 1: So it's very easy, and that's literally the first step 699 00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:44,759 Speaker 1: of using laws. You're signing up importing all of your 700 00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:46,839 Speaker 1: wallets and importing all of your exchange accounts, and then 701 00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:49,640 Speaker 1: we basically do the rest for you. Will produce your 702 00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:52,480 Speaker 1: eighty nine nine, your Schedule D, your Schedule one. If 703 00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:55,440 Speaker 1: you have overseas holdings like if you're using binance or 704 00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:59,360 Speaker 1: if you're using bitmax or um a foreign exchange um, 705 00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:01,680 Speaker 1: you'll have to and if it's over ten thousand, you 706 00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:04,279 Speaker 1: have to file what's called the Vincent one fourteen or 707 00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:07,080 Speaker 1: your f bar. And then over fifty thousand at any 708 00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:09,320 Speaker 1: point throughout the season the tax year, you have to 709 00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:13,800 Speaker 1: file what's called a facta UM. So anyways, long story short, Basically, 710 00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:16,360 Speaker 1: once you import and aggregate all of your wallet accounts, 711 00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:19,399 Speaker 1: all your wallet addresses, we support x pub z pub 712 00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:22,239 Speaker 1: wy pub back thirty two addresses, so very easy to 713 00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:24,440 Speaker 1: get everything in and then our system does arrest. We 714 00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:27,880 Speaker 1: automatically put together your tax forms. You can invite your 715 00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:29,960 Speaker 1: cp A into the account tactually file them for you. 716 00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:32,000 Speaker 1: You can download, you can print um. And then just 717 00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:35,160 Speaker 1: recently we teamed up with with Andrew Gordon, who's out 718 00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:38,520 Speaker 1: of Chicago, one of the leading crypto tax accountants and 719 00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:41,520 Speaker 1: his firm to provide fully prepared CPA plans as well. 720 00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:43,959 Speaker 1: So we do have customers that don't want to mess 721 00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:45,480 Speaker 1: with any of this stuff. They don't want to, they 722 00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:47,640 Speaker 1: just want to make sure that they're complying hands off. 723 00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:49,840 Speaker 1: So we've partnered with a cp A firm where you 724 00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:52,120 Speaker 1: can get not only your crypto but your non crypto 725 00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:56,040 Speaker 1: pactice filed um using a cp A as well. So 726 00:35:56,080 --> 00:35:58,920 Speaker 1: we're trying to provide not only the best do it 727 00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:01,520 Speaker 1: yourself option, but and for the customers that don't want 728 00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:03,520 Speaker 1: to do it themselves and want to have a c 729 00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:06,480 Speaker 1: p A on account, sign off and approve and look 730 00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:09,640 Speaker 1: over the returns, we offer that option as well. So 731 00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:11,839 Speaker 1: then basically what you're saying is I could just walk 732 00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:13,400 Speaker 1: around and spend all the bitcoin I want and not 733 00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:14,839 Speaker 1: have to worry about it, because then leg It will 734 00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:18,120 Speaker 1: take care of all the taxes for me um. I 735 00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:21,040 Speaker 1: don't know if i'd recommend it, but you could. You 736 00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:23,000 Speaker 1: wouldn't recommend it because it can't track it that well, 737 00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:25,239 Speaker 1: or because you shouldn't be spending your bitcoin. I just 738 00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:28,360 Speaker 1: I just think that's always like the interesting part of 739 00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:30,720 Speaker 1: taking myself out of his own letter. Personally, I don't 740 00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:33,279 Speaker 1: think that it's very wise to be spending bitcoin at all. 741 00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:35,560 Speaker 1: I think we're in the in the position right now where, 742 00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:38,040 Speaker 1: in my opinion, it's smarter to accumulate and hold your 743 00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:40,719 Speaker 1: bitcoin over long term. Can you spend your fee at 744 00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:44,480 Speaker 1: stack your stats or use any of the countless air drops, 745 00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:47,239 Speaker 1: whether it's bs B or b c H or if 746 00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:49,920 Speaker 1: you've used any other ethereum based token and you have 747 00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:52,640 Speaker 1: x y z coin and abc coin, use some of 748 00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:54,520 Speaker 1: those coins. If if you really want to go through 749 00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:57,719 Speaker 1: the process of using cryptocurrency to purchase items, there's other 750 00:36:57,719 --> 00:37:00,400 Speaker 1: ways around it than using bitcoin. Some they call me 751 00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:02,440 Speaker 1: a maximalist, some may some may say I'm out of 752 00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:05,480 Speaker 1: my mind, but that's I truly believe that bitcoin um 753 00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:08,480 Speaker 1: is a long term investment that shouldn't be spent right away. 754 00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:12,240 Speaker 1: But if you wanted to, you could easily spend, however, 755 00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:15,040 Speaker 1: many transactions that you had in countless different places, and 756 00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:17,879 Speaker 1: we'd easily be able to integrate and automate those into 757 00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:22,279 Speaker 1: your tax poms for you. Nice. All right, that's good information. 758 00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:24,640 Speaker 1: So we're gonna wrap it up with that. I appreciate 759 00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:26,399 Speaker 1: you sharing that. Like I said, you know, I think 760 00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:29,560 Speaker 1: that the tax situation is one of the biggest obstacles 761 00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:32,839 Speaker 1: to using it as a currency, and I don't think 762 00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:35,680 Speaker 1: Bitcoin needs to have that have success. Gold isn't used 763 00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:39,120 Speaker 1: to buy cups of coffee. Um. Offshore bank accounts are 764 00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:41,320 Speaker 1: forty trillion dollars and you're not using offshore ban accounts 765 00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:44,160 Speaker 1: to buy cups of coffee. So um. But at the 766 00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:46,320 Speaker 1: same time, if it ever did want to become a currency, 767 00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:48,200 Speaker 1: then we need to resolve the cash I'm sorry, the 768 00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:50,279 Speaker 1: tax thing, but knowing that zin Ledger could help with that, 769 00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:54,200 Speaker 1: you know, it's nice nice to have it there. So um. Yeah, Dan, 770 00:37:54,239 --> 00:37:57,120 Speaker 1: I appreciate you uh answering that for us, and so 771 00:37:57,440 --> 00:37:59,359 Speaker 1: we'll link to your stuff so everyone can see it. 772 00:37:59,840 --> 00:38:01,279 Speaker 1: And other than that, we're gonna wrap it up. Thanks 773 00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:04,160 Speaker 1: for thanks for joining in full marketing. If you like 774 00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:07,920 Speaker 1: this episode of the market Disruptors Podcast. Please help us 775 00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:10,400 Speaker 1: take this to the top of the podcast charts. Just 776 00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:13,520 Speaker 1: please do me a favor and rate, review and subscribe. 777 00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:16,480 Speaker 1: Taking fifteen seconds to just leave a quick review goes 778 00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:18,880 Speaker 1: a long way and helping us reach more people and 779 00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:22,080 Speaker 1: disrupt more markets. I really appreciate you listening and I'll 780 00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:24,480 Speaker 1: see you next time on the Market Distructors Podcast.