WEBVTT - Part One: Roundtable on the Future of Terrorism 0:00:02.840 --> 0:00:05.960 Greetings and welcome to It could happen here. I'm Garrison Davis. 0:00:06.000 --> 0:00:10.040 I am a researcher and writer on the podcast team. 0:00:10.080 --> 0:00:14.000 Today we have a roundtable discussion with a group of 0:00:14.040 --> 0:00:18.880 researchers who look into extremism and political political violence that 0:00:19.160 --> 0:00:23.800 usually stemming from far right propagandists and people on that 0:00:23.880 --> 0:00:27.720 kind of whole sphere. So we have a discussion relating 0:00:27.720 --> 0:00:30.639 to climate change and all these other things. So that 0:00:30.720 --> 0:00:33.080 I was able to record these fine people. It's split 0:00:33.120 --> 0:00:35.520 up into two sections, so part one is coming out today, 0:00:35.640 --> 0:00:37.960 Part two is coming out to tomorrow. Highly recommend you 0:00:38.000 --> 0:00:41.360 listen to both, maybe maybe even back to back at 0:00:41.360 --> 0:00:44.080 some point because it does really give a nice rounded 0:00:44.080 --> 0:00:47.199 out um view of what we were talking about. So, 0:00:47.479 --> 0:00:51.000 without further ado, here is my discussion with I kind 0:00:51.000 --> 0:00:54.520 of know, well, not not a dozen, but of a 0:00:54.600 --> 0:00:58.520 lot a large amount of terrorism researchers. As we are 0:00:58.560 --> 0:01:01.200 all uh in the woods. As you will soon find out, 0:01:06.440 --> 0:01:09.760 Welcome to it can happened here The Daily Show. I 0:01:09.800 --> 0:01:12.479 am Garrison Davis, and I am recording in an undisclosed 0:01:12.520 --> 0:01:16.760 location in the woods. Um. We are me and a 0:01:16.760 --> 0:01:20.039 few a few internet colleagues are all hiding from the 0:01:20.040 --> 0:01:23.560 world for a week to reset our poisoned brains. But 0:01:23.720 --> 0:01:26.680 I'm gonna slightly re poison us here for about an 0:01:26.720 --> 0:01:31.800 hour to have a discussion about climate change and terrorism, 0:01:31.840 --> 0:01:34.720 because all we have a group of people here who 0:01:34.720 --> 0:01:39.000 are all well research the bad thing online a lot. 0:01:39.080 --> 0:01:41.280 So I'm going to try to try to use to 0:01:41.600 --> 0:01:45.199 take advantage of having this uh unique group of people 0:01:45.240 --> 0:01:48.280 all in one location to have this nice discussion for 0:01:48.320 --> 0:01:50.040 you guys. But yeah, specifically we want to we want 0:01:50.040 --> 0:01:52.840 to talk about how we how each of us has 0:01:52.880 --> 0:01:56.639 an you know, quote unquote expert in certain fields. Um 0:01:56.880 --> 0:02:02.920 see climate change impacting, imply acting extremism and terrorism in 0:02:02.960 --> 0:02:06.080 the next in the next few decades. Um. And yes, 0:02:06.120 --> 0:02:07.680 we are recording in the forest, So if you hear 0:02:07.720 --> 0:02:10.520 sounds like we're in the forest, that's because we are. Um. 0:02:10.800 --> 0:02:13.160 You you guys already know me, or you probably do. 0:02:13.480 --> 0:02:15.400 But I'm gonna We're gonna go around a circle, probably 0:02:15.400 --> 0:02:18.240 starting on my left, um, introducing the people, and yeah, 0:02:18.360 --> 0:02:22.680 just give a brief a brief brief bio, however detail 0:02:22.680 --> 0:02:25.800 do you want to get into. My name's Matt Taylor. 0:02:25.919 --> 0:02:30.880 I'm a journalist and researcher focusing on cults, um, conspiracy 0:02:30.919 --> 0:02:37.240 theories and extremism. And to day is my birthday, Happy Birthday, Matt. 0:02:37.320 --> 0:02:41.160 In the in the past, my name's THEO. I am 0:02:41.200 --> 0:02:44.080 a journalist and researcher as well. I mostly focused on 0:02:44.639 --> 0:02:50.040 the American militia movement and paramilitary groups. I'm toothpick Um 0:02:50.040 --> 0:02:55.720 with THEO, Matt Emmy and Big New Houses. Isn't here 0:02:55.720 --> 0:02:59.360 on terrorism? Bat that's that's a that's a podcast, by 0:02:59.400 --> 0:03:05.320 the way, self plug um. My research and reporting focuses 0:03:05.400 --> 0:03:09.200 on mainly on conspiracy theories and where that overlaps with 0:03:09.280 --> 0:03:15.480 political extremism and the focus on connections between US in Europe, 0:03:15.760 --> 0:03:20.120 especially Germany. I'm Peter Smith. I'm a journalist with the 0:03:20.120 --> 0:03:23.000 Canadian Anti Hate Network and the host of the Unusual 0:03:23.080 --> 0:03:31.079 Show podcast. I'm Lily and I focus on extermism and 0:03:31.280 --> 0:03:36.400 kind of terrorism and data analysis. And I'm Emmy. I 0:03:36.560 --> 0:03:41.840 do digital propaganda and rhetoric. That that that is our 0:03:41.920 --> 0:03:46.640 little crew. Um. Yeah, let's see what the first thing 0:03:46.680 --> 0:03:49.680 we kind of want to talk about, I'm guessing is 0:03:49.760 --> 0:03:54.160 how we see like small because like the podcast is 0:03:54.200 --> 0:03:57.400 more about like smaller local collapses, like we don't there's 0:03:57.400 --> 0:03:59.840 not gonna be one big class. Where is the small 0:04:00.000 --> 0:04:02.120 thing to start to fall apart? And how we see 0:04:02.360 --> 0:04:04.760 when small things all apart, what we do we see 0:04:04.800 --> 0:04:07.160 filling in those gaps. Specifically, I think this will tie 0:04:07.200 --> 0:04:10.600 into the militia movement a lot in a lot of ways. UM. 0:04:10.640 --> 0:04:15.840 So yeah, you guys can start sprouting off your your knowledge. Yeah. 0:04:15.960 --> 0:04:17.640 So one of the things that I've been thinking of 0:04:17.640 --> 0:04:20.160 and following it. I don't know if this has made 0:04:20.160 --> 0:04:23.400 as much of an impact in US media. UM, but 0:04:23.640 --> 0:04:26.560 in the last month UM, parts of Germany and the 0:04:26.600 --> 0:04:32.359 Netherlands experienced UM, really bad flooding UM that that literally 0:04:32.480 --> 0:04:38.080 wiped out some villages in some towns. UM. And one 0:04:38.120 --> 0:04:41.479 of the things that we've seen in Germany is you know, 0:04:41.560 --> 0:04:45.840 far right groups. UM. There isn't really a militia movement 0:04:45.839 --> 0:04:48.120 because it all laws there, but but far right groups 0:04:48.560 --> 0:04:51.760 rushing in UM and collecting aid and going for photo 0:04:51.839 --> 0:04:56.000 ops UH in those catastrophe areas. UM. And what that 0:04:56.040 --> 0:04:58.800 does make me think of and maybe THEO can talk 0:04:58.839 --> 0:05:01.400 more about this. Eyes we've seen smilar stuff in the 0:05:01.520 --> 0:05:05.039 US with the militia moving marking themselves as you know, 0:05:05.080 --> 0:05:09.520 emergency preparedness UM or marking them selves in that way 0:05:09.839 --> 0:05:14.120 and positioning themselves where when you know the government is 0:05:14.200 --> 0:05:17.240 unable to respond, that these groups are able to come 0:05:17.240 --> 0:05:20.120 in UM and also using that for their messaging and 0:05:20.120 --> 0:05:23.440 for their rhetoric. Yeah. So, I mean that is something 0:05:23.440 --> 0:05:27.279 that you see in the US. The biggest example Garrison 0:05:27.279 --> 0:05:30.719 and I talked about this earlier, but during the wildfires 0:05:30.720 --> 0:05:34.839 in Oregon last year, you saw checkpoints being established by 0:05:35.200 --> 0:05:38.520 militia groups, whether are already formed militia groups are kind 0:05:38.520 --> 0:05:43.400 of impromptu armed bands, And you also see that as 0:05:43.400 --> 0:05:45.560 like a big marketing thing. I know a lot of 0:05:45.600 --> 0:05:50.159 the Virginia based militias that I follow went out to 0:05:50.279 --> 0:05:57.360 Tennessee two one or two years ago when the tornadoes happened. Yeah, 0:05:57.360 --> 0:06:03.279 they did a bunch of kind of aid and photo ops. Yeah. So, 0:06:04.279 --> 0:06:07.680 just not to docks myself, but I'm from Nashville. And then, uh, 0:06:08.120 --> 0:06:11.760 the beginning of in March, right before you own, someone 0:06:11.880 --> 0:06:14.560 just dropped a toy gun. Great job, guys. Yeah. So 0:06:14.640 --> 0:06:18.360 in the beginning of March of last year, right before 0:06:18.640 --> 0:06:21.920 COVID hit Nashville, we had a huge tornado go through 0:06:22.160 --> 0:06:27.240 Nashville itself and wipe out like two different neighborhoods and 0:06:27.279 --> 0:06:30.520 then a rural town right outside of Nashville. But you 0:06:30.600 --> 0:06:32.560 saw a lot of like so the community that comes 0:06:32.600 --> 0:06:35.719 together in this really nice display of mutual aid to 0:06:35.839 --> 0:06:38.479 do all the clean up basically before any official cruise 0:06:38.480 --> 0:06:40.760 could get there. But with that you also sell like 0:06:40.800 --> 0:06:43.200 these far right groups coming in for photo ops and 0:06:43.279 --> 0:06:47.880 it just it normalizes their presence in heavily impacted areas 0:06:48.160 --> 0:06:52.240 and it was not not ideal. Yeah, a lot of 0:06:52.279 --> 0:06:56.000 the American militia movement, especially the modern kind of post 0:06:56.040 --> 0:07:01.480 two thous strain of it, is dedicated on this idea 0:07:01.680 --> 0:07:04.480 of a complete breakdown of order or a loss of 0:07:05.240 --> 0:07:10.000 civil order, however you conceive of that. And um, these 0:07:10.080 --> 0:07:13.000 like climate disasters that are going to hit areas are 0:07:13.040 --> 0:07:16.240 going to kind of provide a self fulfilling prophecy for 0:07:16.280 --> 0:07:17.920 these people to step in and say like, oh no, 0:07:18.040 --> 0:07:20.640 you need some sort of armed force, You need some 0:07:20.680 --> 0:07:22.320 sort of group of people to keep order and to 0:07:22.440 --> 0:07:26.360 keep law in whatever way they conceive of that. Do 0:07:26.440 --> 0:07:28.160 think it's interesting you guys talking about kind of like 0:07:28.160 --> 0:07:30.320 the photo op thing that they do, Because when the 0:07:30.320 --> 0:07:33.560 wildfire has happened in Oregon, all of the actual like 0:07:34.040 --> 0:07:36.600 relief work was done by anti fascists, like we like 0:07:36.640 --> 0:07:38.960 people in Portland, we set up, you know, these these 0:07:38.960 --> 0:07:40.840 massive camps to help we know all these like you know, 0:07:40.960 --> 0:07:43.160 much more conservative people who who have who are to 0:07:43.200 --> 0:07:45.360 that wait their back to their homes and they were 0:07:45.360 --> 0:07:47.480 all getting fed and all like their closes that were 0:07:47.520 --> 0:07:50.360 coming from anti fascists and the all the right did 0:07:50.440 --> 0:07:52.800 was do the arm checkpoints thing. But interesting that like 0:07:53.080 --> 0:07:56.080 in the South where there's less anti fascists, like you know, 0:07:56.200 --> 0:07:58.640 compared to the generals, compared to the Portland right, how 0:07:58.960 --> 0:08:00.680 some of those groups actually you do some of the 0:08:00.680 --> 0:08:03.640 relief effort um and that that's definitely not the case 0:08:03.760 --> 0:08:06.520 up here in the in the West coast. Oh yeah, 0:08:06.560 --> 0:08:10.240 I mean last year, I remember a few county level 0:08:10.280 --> 0:08:15.440 militias that I follow in Virginia. We're like seriously doing 0:08:15.480 --> 0:08:18.000 relief work, like they were gathering food, they were taking 0:08:18.000 --> 0:08:21.800 out places affected by flooding in North Carolina, but tornadoes 0:08:21.800 --> 0:08:25.160 and Tennessee. It's not I wouldn't go so far as 0:08:25.160 --> 0:08:27.200 to call it mutual aid because it lacks the kind 0:08:27.200 --> 0:08:29.640 of ideological framework for that. But they are providing some 0:08:29.720 --> 0:08:34.520 sort of infrastructure for their guys. Yeah, yeah, with yeah, 0:08:34.720 --> 0:08:37.400 with with less of like the theory side of mutually. 0:08:37.559 --> 0:08:39.040 But like, and I'm sure there's someone else who can 0:08:39.080 --> 0:08:42.440 speak more on this, but like from my perspective growing 0:08:42.520 --> 0:08:45.240 up in a super weird church, I see this in interacting, 0:08:45.320 --> 0:08:47.800 they see this like combining with local churches a lot 0:08:47.840 --> 0:08:51.000 as well. Um, I'm not sure there's anyone else here 0:08:51.040 --> 0:08:54.800 who could say something more intelligently than me about how 0:08:54.920 --> 0:09:00.439 like religion will combine with these like kind of militia efforts. Well, 0:09:00.480 --> 0:09:04.040 I was like eco eco extremists, like on the far right, 0:09:04.200 --> 0:09:07.800 on the very very fringe far right, can start to 0:09:07.880 --> 0:09:13.520 like be very esoteric about there, you know, belief in 0:09:13.840 --> 0:09:17.840 climate change, and they start to sort of frame it 0:09:17.880 --> 0:09:22.160 as like a reason for the collapse, Um, that we 0:09:22.240 --> 0:09:28.400 need collapse, are attacking infrastructure, like for the purpose of 0:09:28.440 --> 0:09:31.480 somehow save in the planet, even though it's really not 0:09:31.480 --> 0:09:34.120 going to get that anywhere. We really need to we 0:09:34.160 --> 0:09:35.600 have to do with a lot of our own work 0:09:35.679 --> 0:09:38.560 on the planet. We can't just destroy everything and see 0:09:38.559 --> 0:09:43.559 if it working. Yeah, we can definitely bring up accelerationists 0:09:43.640 --> 0:09:47.280 and accelerationism as a as an over overarching thing that 0:09:47.400 --> 0:09:50.760 is you know, not just it not to be like 0:09:50.840 --> 0:09:53.600 horseshoe theory about it, but the accelation is that pops 0:09:53.679 --> 0:09:56.040 up a whole whole lot of areas, including areas of 0:09:56.080 --> 0:09:58.880 the left, where it becomes very unuseful, um and it 0:09:58.960 --> 0:10:01.520 can lead to like a lot of wasted time and 0:10:01.520 --> 0:10:05.000 some destructive tendencies. I mean, I think that point kind 0:10:05.000 --> 0:10:08.600 of also provides an interesting through line between more mainstream 0:10:08.679 --> 0:10:14.439 militias and like the really esoteric brands of eco fascism 0:10:14.559 --> 0:10:19.480 or ecologically based extremism is that like they're both very 0:10:19.559 --> 0:10:24.240 influenced by like colonial schools of thought, like eco fascism 0:10:24.280 --> 0:10:26.559 and all that is kind of predicated on this idea 0:10:26.600 --> 0:10:30.360 of like Tera Noli's like there is this perfect empty 0:10:30.400 --> 0:10:34.080 wild land that we can have manifest destiny exactly, and 0:10:34.120 --> 0:10:37.840 like so much of the ideas of order and um 0:10:37.880 --> 0:10:41.079 like peacekeeping that you find within more mainstream militia movements 0:10:41.840 --> 0:10:44.520 come from this exact same type of thinking, where it's 0:10:44.559 --> 0:10:47.640 like a colonial order that you need to keep. Yeah, 0:10:47.679 --> 0:10:49.360 I know, there's a lot of a lot of people 0:10:49.360 --> 0:10:52.640 on the left who are in like the kind of 0:10:53.640 --> 0:10:57.240 like you know, green green, like like eCos socialist or 0:10:57.280 --> 0:10:59.120 like green anarchists kind of strange, so get very frustrated 0:10:59.120 --> 0:11:01.400 when people talk about eco fascism, which I can understand 0:11:01.600 --> 0:11:03.600 because no one really means the same thing when they 0:11:03.600 --> 0:11:06.760 talk about it. Sometimes they just mean any like any 0:11:06.840 --> 0:11:11.000 like quote unquote terrorism that has like has like an 0:11:11.040 --> 0:11:13.480 environmental purpose. Some people, you know, when they think of 0:11:13.559 --> 0:11:16.480 eco fascists, we think of like overpopulation. Um. You know, 0:11:16.480 --> 0:11:18.400 there's a lot of different things they mean mean by it. 0:11:18.400 --> 0:11:20.040 But I know, we we've all had talks about like 0:11:20.080 --> 0:11:23.680 what we personally view as like eco fascism, because it's's 0:11:23.679 --> 0:11:26.880 it's it's not just eco streamism, Like eco streamism does 0:11:26.880 --> 0:11:28.640 not equal fascism. Like there is there's a whole bunch 0:11:28.640 --> 0:11:32.400 of eco extremists who are very anti fascist. Um. And 0:11:32.480 --> 0:11:35.080 there is some who kind of bridge bridge the gap, 0:11:35.160 --> 0:11:37.120 you know, like like like id S has some more 0:11:37.160 --> 0:11:41.400 fascist tendencies, But I would not accurately call them fascist 0:11:41.440 --> 0:11:43.320 based on the type of stuff they do, with type 0:11:43.320 --> 0:11:45.280 of writing they do, they do not have, they do 0:11:45.280 --> 0:11:48.000 not check all of the boxes. Um. But then then 0:11:48.040 --> 0:11:50.280 we do have people who I would accurately describe as 0:11:50.280 --> 0:11:52.960 eco fascists who have done who've done you know, mass shootings, 0:11:52.960 --> 0:11:55.440 who have a lot of eco who have eco fascist stuff, 0:11:55.720 --> 0:11:58.520 either in the writing that they like or their own manifestos. 0:11:58.520 --> 0:12:00.480 They bring up enough points it's like, yeah, you kind 0:12:00.480 --> 0:12:14.920 of fall into this broad category. Does someone here want 0:12:14.920 --> 0:12:18.000 to give their personal definition of ego fascism? This isn't 0:12:18.040 --> 0:12:20.679 this not necessarily exactly what we used for the pod, 0:12:21.080 --> 0:12:22.559 But I just I'm interested to here's a lot of 0:12:22.600 --> 0:12:25.880 people with various backgrounds. Everyone has their own specialized knowledge. 0:12:26.080 --> 0:12:27.640 What kind of when people say that, what, what do 0:12:27.679 --> 0:12:30.080 you kind of put into that category? People believe in 0:12:30.120 --> 0:12:33.600 like this organic law and like natural order, and they 0:12:33.600 --> 0:12:37.960 believe that like there is a natural hierarchy ingrained in everything. 0:12:38.120 --> 0:12:43.920 And I think that generally, like if we return to 0:12:44.040 --> 0:12:49.760 like some kind of primitive society or like, you know, 0:12:51.120 --> 0:12:57.000 they'll assume that like everything has uh, it's own structure, 0:12:57.000 --> 0:12:58.360 and that there's going to be people who rise to 0:12:58.400 --> 0:13:04.240 the top, people who just you know, uh don't belong 0:13:04.240 --> 0:13:05.960 in that kind of society. It's going to be really 0:13:06.040 --> 0:13:09.959 damaging for like the elderly, for disabled people, And they 0:13:10.040 --> 0:13:13.400 just sort of see it as like survival of the 0:13:13.400 --> 0:13:15.880 fist um. And I think that's like a much more 0:13:16.360 --> 0:13:18.800 eco fascist point of view rather than like a more 0:13:19.040 --> 0:13:21.920 green anarchist point of view where things would sort of 0:13:21.960 --> 0:13:27.000 even out, um, rather than become a hierarchical Yeah. Yeah, 0:13:27.000 --> 0:13:29.320 I think hierarchy is an important part of that. And 0:13:29.360 --> 0:13:30.599 how we you know, there is like a lot of 0:13:30.640 --> 0:13:33.120 green anarchist who are focusing on like making their own 0:13:33.160 --> 0:13:35.959 medication for for you know, people with diabetes and stuff. 0:13:35.960 --> 0:13:37.360 That's kind of stuff that is like really interesting to 0:13:37.400 --> 0:13:39.680 look at and stuff that we should absolutely pursue because 0:13:39.720 --> 0:13:42.240 we'll become less reliance to apply chains. And we don't 0:13:42.280 --> 0:13:45.760 really see eco fascists doing that. We do not see 0:13:45.800 --> 0:13:50.120 them focusing on making medication for people. Oh no, maybe 0:13:50.160 --> 0:13:52.959 I can kind of set some people up to say 0:13:52.960 --> 0:13:54.240 more stuff if I say this is is real quickly. But 0:13:54.240 --> 0:13:56.280 one of the things that I always or that that 0:13:56.400 --> 0:13:58.800 is a red flag for me is is just you know, 0:13:58.840 --> 0:14:03.079 bring in this very traditional discussions of gender roles and 0:14:03.080 --> 0:14:09.120 and relating that to the environment. Yeah, our rhetoric, I mean, 0:14:09.120 --> 0:14:11.559 I don't we don't need to say names of specific 0:14:11.679 --> 0:14:17.720 like writers are people, but there's definitely describe the general sure, yeah, 0:14:18.280 --> 0:14:22.120 stop playing with the toy gun. Oh my god. Um, 0:14:22.480 --> 0:14:26.680 just just like establishing and it is kind of it 0:14:26.720 --> 0:14:29.000 can be kind of like an older left thing too, 0:14:29.000 --> 0:14:34.880 but establishing you know, ecological discussions within framework of traditional 0:14:35.280 --> 0:14:40.520 gender roles um and kind of like what is expected 0:14:40.560 --> 0:14:43.600 of people based on their sex. Yeah, this is this 0:14:43.640 --> 0:14:45.960 is this is the dark side of cottage core. Yes, 0:14:47.240 --> 0:14:49.560 that's one way to put it. I mean you want 0:14:49.560 --> 0:14:55.360 to get in here, oh boy, yeah, I like parts 0:14:55.360 --> 0:14:57.640 of cottage courts not want intersects with a certain strain 0:14:57.720 --> 0:15:03.000 of politics, Like queer cottage core is extremely cute, sure 0:15:04.120 --> 0:15:07.600 until yeah, well until you're not queer, and listen, you know, 0:15:08.560 --> 0:15:13.320 sometimes they still are. Now here's the thing. When we're 0:15:13.320 --> 0:15:16.720 when we're dealing with like traditional gender role stuff, it's 0:15:16.720 --> 0:15:24.440 a really like slippery slope into more aggressive strains of thought. 0:15:25.040 --> 0:15:27.360 So when we're when we're talking about the the idea 0:15:27.520 --> 0:15:38.560 of of the class, we will podcast it's mass birthday. 0:15:38.640 --> 0:15:45.400 You asked to apologize, Yeah, ripped to the editor. I 0:15:45.400 --> 0:15:50.400 wouldn't know what that's so good. So when they're talking 0:15:50.400 --> 0:15:52.760 about the claps and they want, you know, they think 0:15:53.360 --> 0:15:55.880 the rod of modernity will be gone, society will be ended. 0:15:55.920 --> 0:15:57.920 They can they can you know, rebuilt from the ground up, 0:15:57.960 --> 0:16:01.080 smaller communities and Uh, they can. They can build the 0:16:01.160 --> 0:16:04.600 society they want, which is largely a no nationalists. It's 0:16:04.640 --> 0:16:07.680 not great. The the idea that there will be this 0:16:07.840 --> 0:16:11.000 this super traditional family structure. You're going to have your 0:16:12.080 --> 0:16:17.960 this combined strong warrior also homesteading man and your cool 0:16:18.000 --> 0:16:21.920 trad wife who never ages above thirty in this society. 0:16:22.040 --> 0:16:27.960 Like I'm being generous here, assuming that at least like 0:16:28.240 --> 0:16:31.520 some of these people have a little bit of like 0:16:32.040 --> 0:16:38.440 pre planning. But they don't. They don't um, and they 0:16:38.480 --> 0:16:40.840 step on each other a lot, right because they have 0:16:42.160 --> 0:16:46.280 this this whole plan for this uh, this society free 0:16:47.000 --> 0:16:50.440 of industry, um, and they can't stop posting about it 0:16:51.000 --> 0:16:54.240 on the internet. It's really funny, right, Like they're not 0:16:54.760 --> 0:16:56.440 they're not good at it. Yeah, they're like way too 0:16:56.440 --> 0:16:59.280 addicted to posting to like actually commit to like the 0:16:59.400 --> 0:17:02.200 true no off the grid trad life. At least at 0:17:02.280 --> 0:17:05.320 least ten K was off the grid. We don't gotta 0:17:05.320 --> 0:17:08.560 hand it to you. Go ahead, We don't gotta hand 0:17:08.560 --> 0:17:11.320 it to it. You got ahead to you undergo circumstances 0:17:11.320 --> 0:17:13.960 and got a hit. Todd is divided on how much 0:17:14.000 --> 0:17:16.920 we gotta hand it to, said K. The official stands 0:17:16.920 --> 0:17:19.000 of terrorism bad? Is the terrorism is bad? Why don't 0:17:19.000 --> 0:17:20.960 we just bring them on? It is kind of a 0:17:20.960 --> 0:17:24.119 concern when they do end up when they stop posting. 0:17:24.160 --> 0:17:26.639 I mean, it's a concert when they're posting, but it's 0:17:26.720 --> 0:17:31.800 kind of more concerning posted sometimes. Yeah. Yeah, it's the 0:17:31.840 --> 0:17:33.520 same as like looking at a kid that wants to 0:17:33.560 --> 0:17:36.600 be a firefighter or something like they're just talking. They're 0:17:36.600 --> 0:17:38.639 not going to do it, but you see some of 0:17:38.600 --> 0:17:41.919 the I'm doing and when they're doing the thing, the 0:17:42.000 --> 0:17:45.919 lifestyle influencer version of fascism. Yeah, do you think that 0:17:45.960 --> 0:17:50.399 it's going to affect kind of like laws about living 0:17:50.400 --> 0:17:53.879 off grid and laws about like for for normal people. 0:17:54.400 --> 0:17:56.800 I just want to get the funk out. I actually 0:17:56.840 --> 0:17:58.800 just read something about this. There's some guy who've been 0:17:58.800 --> 0:18:01.639 living off grid in pennsylvani for like thirty years and 0:18:01.680 --> 0:18:03.400 I don't remember the details of this, and we don't 0:18:03.440 --> 0:18:08.680 have internet out here. Burn house down. Yeah, he's in 0:18:08.760 --> 0:18:10.879 jail now. He's probably gonna be in jail for the 0:18:10.920 --> 0:18:13.600 rest of his life. And I think part of whether 0:18:13.600 --> 0:18:16.200 it comes from left through the right as people kind 0:18:16.240 --> 0:18:19.000 of start to try to build resiliency within communities for 0:18:19.040 --> 0:18:21.919 disasters that are coming and start to seek ways of 0:18:21.960 --> 0:18:24.000 living that do not rely on supply chains and do 0:18:24.040 --> 0:18:26.800 not rely on the state. The state will strike back 0:18:26.840 --> 0:18:30.520 against that as a consolidation of power, because the more 0:18:30.600 --> 0:18:32.520 that people move away from it, whether on the left 0:18:32.600 --> 0:18:35.080 or right, the less power the state has. I mean, 0:18:35.080 --> 0:18:38.880 and utilizing counter terrorism an excuse to do so, Yeah, 0:18:38.880 --> 0:18:42.119 because they're giving reasons and it's not it's not going 0:18:42.200 --> 0:18:47.000 to get enforced equally. I'm sure that's gonna gonna focus 0:18:47.119 --> 0:18:50.520 uncertain people doing this and be slightly more okay with 0:18:50.600 --> 0:18:55.719 other people doing it. Yeah, what's so? I would like 0:18:55.800 --> 0:18:59.800 to talk about Canada a little bit because specifically climate 0:18:59.840 --> 0:19:02.240 change affecting Canada's can be varied. It's going to be 0:19:02.280 --> 0:19:04.639 slightly different, and most of it can go to the States, 0:19:04.680 --> 0:19:06.920 because I mean, I've been, I've been, I've been having 0:19:06.960 --> 0:19:09.920 my my waist deep in climate science books for most 0:19:09.960 --> 0:19:16.480 of UM, and Canada's gonna probably see economic boosts UM, 0:19:16.560 --> 0:19:19.240 and they're probably the state's probably just gonna get actually 0:19:19.280 --> 0:19:22.880 stronger because of how the same thing with Russia. Both 0:19:22.960 --> 0:19:25.560 Canada and Russia are going to get more economically powerful 0:19:25.640 --> 0:19:27.479 under climate change because of how much more props are 0:19:27.480 --> 0:19:31.160 gonna get moved up. How give me your thoughts to Canada, 0:19:31.160 --> 0:19:33.320 because in canada's my backup plan. It's gonna gets too 0:19:33.320 --> 0:19:35.840 spicy in the States, I'm I'm taking my Canadian passport 0:19:35.840 --> 0:19:41.480 and hiding in the woods. Um. How how it's it's 0:19:41.480 --> 0:19:44.560 interesting to hear you guys talk about American mellistic culture 0:19:44.560 --> 0:19:47.879 because we we definitely are rhetoric and propaganda that we 0:19:47.920 --> 0:19:50.720 see in Canada gets borrowed a lot the talking points 0:19:50.760 --> 0:19:54.440 from the States, like the concepts. But what we don't 0:19:54.480 --> 0:19:58.480 have are these strong organized militia groups. We had three 0:19:58.480 --> 0:20:01.320 per centers for a while, um and who still exists, 0:20:01.359 --> 0:20:04.320 but they were they were big about being off right 0:20:04.400 --> 0:20:06.879 like they were the ones who weren't posting for a 0:20:06.880 --> 0:20:09.679 long time. UM. And it seems like as much as 0:20:09.720 --> 0:20:13.280 all these people are still around, they've largely deflated, doubt 0:20:13.640 --> 0:20:16.560 because Canada has made some some efforts to call them 0:20:16.640 --> 0:20:19.520 terrorists right right. Very recently we designated them as a 0:20:19.640 --> 0:20:24.199 terrorist organization, which doesn't carry a criminal charge. But if 0:20:24.240 --> 0:20:27.360 you if you do something involved with them, you send 0:20:27.400 --> 0:20:29.800 the money like there is there are consequences of that 0:20:30.000 --> 0:20:35.600 legal enhancements, um. But are are kind of militia culture 0:20:35.680 --> 0:20:41.000 focuses on the illegitimacy of the state that Canada is founded. 0:20:41.200 --> 0:20:44.320 It's very kind of soft sit type rhetoric. But that 0:20:44.480 --> 0:20:48.359 Canada's established, minutes, it's rules, and especially with all the 0:20:48.359 --> 0:20:53.040 public health measures, it's this growing, uh, this growing kind 0:20:53.040 --> 0:20:56.840 of tired of thought in both the prairies and largely 0:20:56.880 --> 0:21:12.320 out west. I grew up a statute. Um, most of 0:21:12.320 --> 0:21:14.600 my families in Alberta. I know when when I look 0:21:14.600 --> 0:21:16.600 at when I because I keep a soft eye on 0:21:16.640 --> 0:21:19.240 some Canadian hate groups just because I'm Canadian. Most of 0:21:19.240 --> 0:21:21.920 them popped up around Alberta. Um, where do you see 0:21:21.920 --> 0:21:23.480 this stuff kind of like happening, Like do you see 0:21:23.480 --> 0:21:25.080 any of this on the East coast? If so, is 0:21:25.080 --> 0:21:27.040 it's smaller or is this mostly on like a West 0:21:27.080 --> 0:21:31.320 coast Canada thing. Well, that like that conspiratory thought we've 0:21:31.320 --> 0:21:33.760 seen kind of across the country, like on the East coast. 0:21:33.800 --> 0:21:36.360 You know, just recently we had people setting up their 0:21:36.359 --> 0:21:40.960 own version of checkpoints um as like a protest against 0:21:40.960 --> 0:21:45.520 the the public health measures, and like the whole eastern 0:21:45.520 --> 0:21:49.320 part of Canada is in its own bubble right now. Um. 0:21:49.400 --> 0:21:54.080 But yeah, you had this conspiracy based movement forming these 0:21:54.119 --> 0:21:57.600 actual checkpoints. And then the main part of it though, 0:21:57.720 --> 0:22:00.520 is probably going to be out west. That is where 0:22:00.640 --> 0:22:03.480 these ideas are the most popular or the most popular. 0:22:03.600 --> 0:22:08.000 That makes sense where mainstream politicians are moving towards, you know, 0:22:08.080 --> 0:22:11.760 amplify these types of talking points. Do you see that 0:22:11.800 --> 0:22:15.120 like is that is? Is that a mostly Alberta thing? 0:22:15.480 --> 0:22:19.959 It's the mostly like prairies Alberta, the farmland. The interesting 0:22:20.000 --> 0:22:22.360 part is that when you talk about groups is like Canada, 0:22:22.600 --> 0:22:25.880 groups are an urban phenomenon. For the most part, most 0:22:25.920 --> 0:22:29.840 of our organization takes place around the city centers, and 0:22:29.920 --> 0:22:32.040 that is very different from the States. With the States, 0:22:32.040 --> 0:22:36.320 that's it's usually the usually the opposite in some there's 0:22:36.320 --> 0:22:38.720 there's always exceptions of too minimum people live, but generally 0:22:38.720 --> 0:22:39.960 we see it as more of it's more of a 0:22:40.040 --> 0:22:42.760 rule thing which teams organized, whereas cities are more like 0:22:43.160 --> 0:22:46.600 liberal and that's what the anti fascist groups are based. Um. 0:22:46.640 --> 0:22:49.399 But it's kind of these like these little ideological pockets 0:22:49.440 --> 0:22:52.439 that exist all over and certainly that sentiment is probably shared, 0:22:52.720 --> 0:22:57.480 but the need to mobilize seems to mostly focus on 0:22:57.520 --> 0:23:00.000 the urban centers. And then we never have our group. 0:23:00.320 --> 0:23:04.040 They don't providing any kind of age that's just or 0:23:04.040 --> 0:23:07.880 even checkpoints like that's beyond these like very recent protest movements, 0:23:08.040 --> 0:23:10.720 you know, and there has been no more forest fires 0:23:10.840 --> 0:23:16.520 around BC, um, around you know what Western Alberta. Um. 0:23:16.560 --> 0:23:19.359 How do you see the government's response these types of 0:23:19.359 --> 0:23:21.679 things right now? And it can do is in a 0:23:21.680 --> 0:23:25.520 particular situation with um, the Liberals having a minority control. 0:23:26.280 --> 0:23:29.399 You know, the Canadian poet parliamentary system is probably confusing 0:23:29.400 --> 0:23:32.119 to love of Americans that they don't understand it already. UM. 0:23:32.160 --> 0:23:34.119 But yeah, how how what do you what do you 0:23:34.160 --> 0:23:36.440 see on on that front? You know, you know, trust 0:23:36.480 --> 0:23:38.560