1 00:00:02,840 --> 00:00:05,960 Speaker 1: Greetings and welcome to It could happen here. I'm Garrison Davis. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:10,040 Speaker 1: I am a researcher and writer on the podcast team. 3 00:00:10,080 --> 00:00:14,000 Speaker 1: Today we have a roundtable discussion with a group of 4 00:00:14,040 --> 00:00:18,880 Speaker 1: researchers who look into extremism and political political violence that 5 00:00:19,160 --> 00:00:23,800 Speaker 1: usually stemming from far right propagandists and people on that 6 00:00:23,880 --> 00:00:27,720 Speaker 1: kind of whole sphere. So we have a discussion relating 7 00:00:27,720 --> 00:00:30,639 Speaker 1: to climate change and all these other things. So that 8 00:00:30,720 --> 00:00:33,080 Speaker 1: I was able to record these fine people. It's split 9 00:00:33,120 --> 00:00:35,520 Speaker 1: up into two sections, so part one is coming out today, 10 00:00:35,640 --> 00:00:37,960 Speaker 1: Part two is coming out to tomorrow. Highly recommend you 11 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:41,360 Speaker 1: listen to both, maybe maybe even back to back at 12 00:00:41,360 --> 00:00:44,080 Speaker 1: some point because it does really give a nice rounded 13 00:00:44,080 --> 00:00:47,199 Speaker 1: out um view of what we were talking about. So, 14 00:00:47,479 --> 00:00:51,000 Speaker 1: without further ado, here is my discussion with I kind 15 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:54,520 Speaker 1: of know, well, not not a dozen, but of a 16 00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:58,520 Speaker 1: lot a large amount of terrorism researchers. As we are 17 00:00:58,560 --> 00:01:01,200 Speaker 1: all uh in the woods. As you will soon find out, 18 00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:09,760 Speaker 1: Welcome to it can happened here The Daily Show. I 19 00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:12,479 Speaker 1: am Garrison Davis, and I am recording in an undisclosed 20 00:01:12,520 --> 00:01:16,760 Speaker 1: location in the woods. Um. We are me and a 21 00:01:16,760 --> 00:01:20,039 Speaker 1: few a few internet colleagues are all hiding from the 22 00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:23,560 Speaker 1: world for a week to reset our poisoned brains. But 23 00:01:23,720 --> 00:01:26,680 Speaker 1: I'm gonna slightly re poison us here for about an 24 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:31,800 Speaker 1: hour to have a discussion about climate change and terrorism, 25 00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:34,720 Speaker 1: because all we have a group of people here who 26 00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:39,000 Speaker 1: are all well research the bad thing online a lot. 27 00:01:39,080 --> 00:01:41,280 Speaker 1: So I'm going to try to try to use to 28 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:45,199 Speaker 1: take advantage of having this uh unique group of people 29 00:01:45,240 --> 00:01:48,280 Speaker 1: all in one location to have this nice discussion for 30 00:01:48,320 --> 00:01:50,040 Speaker 1: you guys. But yeah, specifically we want to we want 31 00:01:50,040 --> 00:01:52,840 Speaker 1: to talk about how we how each of us has 32 00:01:52,880 --> 00:01:56,639 Speaker 1: an you know, quote unquote expert in certain fields. Um 33 00:01:56,880 --> 00:02:02,920 Speaker 1: see climate change impacting, imply acting extremism and terrorism in 34 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:06,080 Speaker 1: the next in the next few decades. Um. And yes, 35 00:02:06,120 --> 00:02:07,680 Speaker 1: we are recording in the forest, So if you hear 36 00:02:07,720 --> 00:02:10,520 Speaker 1: sounds like we're in the forest, that's because we are. Um. 37 00:02:10,800 --> 00:02:13,160 Speaker 1: You you guys already know me, or you probably do. 38 00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:15,400 Speaker 1: But I'm gonna We're gonna go around a circle, probably 39 00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:18,240 Speaker 1: starting on my left, um, introducing the people, and yeah, 40 00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:22,680 Speaker 1: just give a brief a brief brief bio, however detail 41 00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:25,800 Speaker 1: do you want to get into. My name's Matt Taylor. 42 00:02:25,919 --> 00:02:30,880 Speaker 1: I'm a journalist and researcher focusing on cults, um, conspiracy 43 00:02:30,919 --> 00:02:37,240 Speaker 1: theories and extremism. And to day is my birthday, Happy Birthday, Matt. 44 00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:41,160 Speaker 1: In the in the past, my name's THEO. I am 45 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:44,080 Speaker 1: a journalist and researcher as well. I mostly focused on 46 00:02:44,639 --> 00:02:50,040 Speaker 1: the American militia movement and paramilitary groups. I'm toothpick Um 47 00:02:50,040 --> 00:02:55,720 Speaker 1: with THEO, Matt Emmy and Big New Houses. Isn't here 48 00:02:55,720 --> 00:02:59,360 Speaker 1: on terrorism? Bat that's that's a that's a podcast, by 49 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:05,320 Speaker 1: the way, self plug um. My research and reporting focuses 50 00:03:05,400 --> 00:03:09,200 Speaker 1: on mainly on conspiracy theories and where that overlaps with 51 00:03:09,280 --> 00:03:15,480 Speaker 1: political extremism and the focus on connections between US in Europe, 52 00:03:15,760 --> 00:03:20,120 Speaker 1: especially Germany. I'm Peter Smith. I'm a journalist with the 53 00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:23,000 Speaker 1: Canadian Anti Hate Network and the host of the Unusual 54 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:31,079 Speaker 1: Show podcast. I'm Lily and I focus on extermism and 55 00:03:31,280 --> 00:03:36,400 Speaker 1: kind of terrorism and data analysis. And I'm Emmy. I 56 00:03:36,560 --> 00:03:41,840 Speaker 1: do digital propaganda and rhetoric. That that that is our 57 00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:46,640 Speaker 1: little crew. Um. Yeah, let's see what the first thing 58 00:03:46,680 --> 00:03:49,680 Speaker 1: we kind of want to talk about, I'm guessing is 59 00:03:49,760 --> 00:03:54,160 Speaker 1: how we see like small because like the podcast is 60 00:03:54,200 --> 00:03:57,400 Speaker 1: more about like smaller local collapses, like we don't there's 61 00:03:57,400 --> 00:03:59,840 Speaker 1: not gonna be one big class. Where is the small 62 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:02,120 Speaker 1: thing to start to fall apart? And how we see 63 00:04:02,360 --> 00:04:04,760 Speaker 1: when small things all apart, what we do we see 64 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:07,160 Speaker 1: filling in those gaps. Specifically, I think this will tie 65 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:10,600 Speaker 1: into the militia movement a lot in a lot of ways. UM. 66 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:15,840 Speaker 1: So yeah, you guys can start sprouting off your your knowledge. Yeah. 67 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:17,640 Speaker 1: So one of the things that I've been thinking of 68 00:04:17,640 --> 00:04:20,160 Speaker 1: and following it. I don't know if this has made 69 00:04:20,160 --> 00:04:23,400 Speaker 1: as much of an impact in US media. UM, but 70 00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:26,560 Speaker 1: in the last month UM, parts of Germany and the 71 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:32,359 Speaker 1: Netherlands experienced UM, really bad flooding UM that that literally 72 00:04:32,480 --> 00:04:38,080 Speaker 1: wiped out some villages in some towns. UM. And one 73 00:04:38,120 --> 00:04:41,479 Speaker 1: of the things that we've seen in Germany is you know, 74 00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:45,840 Speaker 1: far right groups. UM. There isn't really a militia movement 75 00:04:45,839 --> 00:04:48,120 Speaker 1: because it all laws there, but but far right groups 76 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:51,760 Speaker 1: rushing in UM and collecting aid and going for photo 77 00:04:51,839 --> 00:04:56,000 Speaker 1: ops UH in those catastrophe areas. UM. And what that 78 00:04:56,040 --> 00:04:58,800 Speaker 1: does make me think of and maybe THEO can talk 79 00:04:58,839 --> 00:05:01,400 Speaker 1: more about this. Eyes we've seen smilar stuff in the 80 00:05:01,520 --> 00:05:05,039 Speaker 1: US with the militia moving marking themselves as you know, 81 00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:09,520 Speaker 1: emergency preparedness UM or marking them selves in that way 82 00:05:09,839 --> 00:05:14,120 Speaker 1: and positioning themselves where when you know the government is 83 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:17,240 Speaker 1: unable to respond, that these groups are able to come 84 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:20,120 Speaker 1: in UM and also using that for their messaging and 85 00:05:20,120 --> 00:05:23,440 Speaker 1: for their rhetoric. Yeah. So, I mean that is something 86 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:27,279 Speaker 1: that you see in the US. The biggest example Garrison 87 00:05:27,279 --> 00:05:30,719 Speaker 1: and I talked about this earlier, but during the wildfires 88 00:05:30,720 --> 00:05:34,839 Speaker 1: in Oregon last year, you saw checkpoints being established by 89 00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:38,520 Speaker 1: militia groups, whether are already formed militia groups are kind 90 00:05:38,520 --> 00:05:43,400 Speaker 1: of impromptu armed bands, And you also see that as 91 00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:45,560 Speaker 1: like a big marketing thing. I know a lot of 92 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:50,159 Speaker 1: the Virginia based militias that I follow went out to 93 00:05:50,279 --> 00:05:57,360 Speaker 1: Tennessee two one or two years ago when the tornadoes happened. Yeah, 94 00:05:57,360 --> 00:06:03,279 Speaker 1: they did a bunch of kind of aid and photo ops. Yeah. So, 95 00:06:04,279 --> 00:06:07,680 Speaker 1: just not to docks myself, but I'm from Nashville. And then, uh, 96 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:11,760 Speaker 1: the beginning of in March, right before you own, someone 97 00:06:11,880 --> 00:06:14,560 Speaker 1: just dropped a toy gun. Great job, guys. Yeah. So 98 00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:18,360 Speaker 1: in the beginning of March of last year, right before 99 00:06:18,640 --> 00:06:21,920 Speaker 1: COVID hit Nashville, we had a huge tornado go through 100 00:06:22,160 --> 00:06:27,240 Speaker 1: Nashville itself and wipe out like two different neighborhoods and 101 00:06:27,279 --> 00:06:30,520 Speaker 1: then a rural town right outside of Nashville. But you 102 00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:32,560 Speaker 1: saw a lot of like so the community that comes 103 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:35,719 Speaker 1: together in this really nice display of mutual aid to 104 00:06:35,839 --> 00:06:38,479 Speaker 1: do all the clean up basically before any official cruise 105 00:06:38,480 --> 00:06:40,760 Speaker 1: could get there. But with that you also sell like 106 00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:43,200 Speaker 1: these far right groups coming in for photo ops and 107 00:06:43,279 --> 00:06:47,880 Speaker 1: it just it normalizes their presence in heavily impacted areas 108 00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:52,240 Speaker 1: and it was not not ideal. Yeah, a lot of 109 00:06:52,279 --> 00:06:56,000 Speaker 1: the American militia movement, especially the modern kind of post 110 00:06:56,040 --> 00:07:01,480 Speaker 1: two thous strain of it, is dedicated on this idea 111 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:04,480 Speaker 1: of a complete breakdown of order or a loss of 112 00:07:05,240 --> 00:07:10,000 Speaker 1: civil order, however you conceive of that. And um, these 113 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:13,000 Speaker 1: like climate disasters that are going to hit areas are 114 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:16,240 Speaker 1: going to kind of provide a self fulfilling prophecy for 115 00:07:16,280 --> 00:07:17,920 Speaker 1: these people to step in and say like, oh no, 116 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:20,640 Speaker 1: you need some sort of armed force, You need some 117 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:22,320 Speaker 1: sort of group of people to keep order and to 118 00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:26,360 Speaker 1: keep law in whatever way they conceive of that. Do 119 00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:28,160 Speaker 1: think it's interesting you guys talking about kind of like 120 00:07:28,160 --> 00:07:30,320 Speaker 1: the photo op thing that they do, Because when the 121 00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:33,560 Speaker 1: wildfire has happened in Oregon, all of the actual like 122 00:07:34,040 --> 00:07:36,600 Speaker 1: relief work was done by anti fascists, like we like 123 00:07:36,640 --> 00:07:38,960 Speaker 1: people in Portland, we set up, you know, these these 124 00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:40,840 Speaker 1: massive camps to help we know all these like you know, 125 00:07:40,960 --> 00:07:43,160 Speaker 1: much more conservative people who who have who are to 126 00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:45,360 Speaker 1: that wait their back to their homes and they were 127 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:47,480 Speaker 1: all getting fed and all like their closes that were 128 00:07:47,520 --> 00:07:50,360 Speaker 1: coming from anti fascists and the all the right did 129 00:07:50,440 --> 00:07:52,800 Speaker 1: was do the arm checkpoints thing. But interesting that like 130 00:07:53,080 --> 00:07:56,080 Speaker 1: in the South where there's less anti fascists, like you know, 131 00:07:56,200 --> 00:07:58,640 Speaker 1: compared to the generals, compared to the Portland right, how 132 00:07:58,960 --> 00:08:00,680 Speaker 1: some of those groups actually you do some of the 133 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:03,640 Speaker 1: relief effort um and that that's definitely not the case 134 00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:06,520 Speaker 1: up here in the in the West coast. Oh yeah, 135 00:08:06,560 --> 00:08:10,240 Speaker 1: I mean last year, I remember a few county level 136 00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:15,440 Speaker 1: militias that I follow in Virginia. We're like seriously doing 137 00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:18,000 Speaker 1: relief work, like they were gathering food, they were taking 138 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:21,800 Speaker 1: out places affected by flooding in North Carolina, but tornadoes 139 00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:25,160 Speaker 1: and Tennessee. It's not I wouldn't go so far as 140 00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:27,200 Speaker 1: to call it mutual aid because it lacks the kind 141 00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:29,640 Speaker 1: of ideological framework for that. But they are providing some 142 00:08:29,720 --> 00:08:34,520 Speaker 1: sort of infrastructure for their guys. Yeah, yeah, with yeah, 143 00:08:34,720 --> 00:08:37,400 Speaker 1: with with less of like the theory side of mutually. 144 00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:39,040 Speaker 1: But like, and I'm sure there's someone else who can 145 00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:42,440 Speaker 1: speak more on this, but like from my perspective growing 146 00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:45,240 Speaker 1: up in a super weird church, I see this in interacting, 147 00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:47,800 Speaker 1: they see this like combining with local churches a lot 148 00:08:47,840 --> 00:08:51,000 Speaker 1: as well. Um, I'm not sure there's anyone else here 149 00:08:51,040 --> 00:08:54,800 Speaker 1: who could say something more intelligently than me about how 150 00:08:54,920 --> 00:09:00,439 Speaker 1: like religion will combine with these like kind of militia efforts. Well, 151 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:04,040 Speaker 1: I was like eco eco extremists, like on the far right, 152 00:09:04,200 --> 00:09:07,800 Speaker 1: on the very very fringe far right, can start to 153 00:09:07,880 --> 00:09:13,520 Speaker 1: like be very esoteric about there, you know, belief in 154 00:09:13,840 --> 00:09:17,840 Speaker 1: climate change, and they start to sort of frame it 155 00:09:17,880 --> 00:09:22,160 Speaker 1: as like a reason for the collapse, Um, that we 156 00:09:22,240 --> 00:09:28,400 Speaker 1: need collapse, are attacking infrastructure, like for the purpose of 157 00:09:28,440 --> 00:09:31,480 Speaker 1: somehow save in the planet, even though it's really not 158 00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:34,120 Speaker 1: going to get that anywhere. We really need to we 159 00:09:34,160 --> 00:09:35,600 Speaker 1: have to do with a lot of our own work 160 00:09:35,679 --> 00:09:38,560 Speaker 1: on the planet. We can't just destroy everything and see 161 00:09:38,559 --> 00:09:43,559 Speaker 1: if it working. Yeah, we can definitely bring up accelerationists 162 00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:47,280 Speaker 1: and accelerationism as a as an over overarching thing that 163 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:50,760 Speaker 1: is you know, not just it not to be like 164 00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:53,600 Speaker 1: horseshoe theory about it, but the accelation is that pops 165 00:09:53,679 --> 00:09:56,040 Speaker 1: up a whole whole lot of areas, including areas of 166 00:09:56,080 --> 00:09:58,880 Speaker 1: the left, where it becomes very unuseful, um and it 167 00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:01,520 Speaker 1: can lead to like a lot of wasted time and 168 00:10:01,520 --> 00:10:05,000 Speaker 1: some destructive tendencies. I mean, I think that point kind 169 00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:08,600 Speaker 1: of also provides an interesting through line between more mainstream 170 00:10:08,679 --> 00:10:14,439 Speaker 1: militias and like the really esoteric brands of eco fascism 171 00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:19,480 Speaker 1: or ecologically based extremism is that like they're both very 172 00:10:19,559 --> 00:10:24,240 Speaker 1: influenced by like colonial schools of thought, like eco fascism 173 00:10:24,280 --> 00:10:26,559 Speaker 1: and all that is kind of predicated on this idea 174 00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:30,360 Speaker 1: of like Tera Noli's like there is this perfect empty 175 00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:34,080 Speaker 1: wild land that we can have manifest destiny exactly, and 176 00:10:34,120 --> 00:10:37,840 Speaker 1: like so much of the ideas of order and um 177 00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:41,079 Speaker 1: like peacekeeping that you find within more mainstream militia movements 178 00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:44,520 Speaker 1: come from this exact same type of thinking, where it's 179 00:10:44,559 --> 00:10:47,640 Speaker 1: like a colonial order that you need to keep. Yeah, 180 00:10:47,679 --> 00:10:49,360 Speaker 1: I know, there's a lot of a lot of people 181 00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:52,640 Speaker 1: on the left who are in like the kind of 182 00:10:53,640 --> 00:10:57,240 Speaker 1: like you know, green green, like like eCos socialist or 183 00:10:57,280 --> 00:10:59,120 Speaker 1: like green anarchists kind of strange, so get very frustrated 184 00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:01,400 Speaker 1: when people talk about eco fascism, which I can understand 185 00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:03,600 Speaker 1: because no one really means the same thing when they 186 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:06,760 Speaker 1: talk about it. Sometimes they just mean any like any 187 00:11:06,840 --> 00:11:11,000 Speaker 1: like quote unquote terrorism that has like has like an 188 00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:13,480 Speaker 1: environmental purpose. Some people, you know, when they think of 189 00:11:13,559 --> 00:11:16,480 Speaker 1: eco fascists, we think of like overpopulation. Um. You know, 190 00:11:16,480 --> 00:11:18,400 Speaker 1: there's a lot of different things they mean mean by it. 191 00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:20,040 Speaker 1: But I know, we we've all had talks about like 192 00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:23,680 Speaker 1: what we personally view as like eco fascism, because it's's 193 00:11:23,679 --> 00:11:26,880 Speaker 1: it's it's not just eco streamism, Like eco streamism does 194 00:11:26,880 --> 00:11:28,640 Speaker 1: not equal fascism. Like there is there's a whole bunch 195 00:11:28,640 --> 00:11:32,400 Speaker 1: of eco extremists who are very anti fascist. Um. And 196 00:11:32,480 --> 00:11:35,080 Speaker 1: there is some who kind of bridge bridge the gap, 197 00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:37,120 Speaker 1: you know, like like like id S has some more 198 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:41,400 Speaker 1: fascist tendencies, But I would not accurately call them fascist 199 00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:43,320 Speaker 1: based on the type of stuff they do, with type 200 00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:45,280 Speaker 1: of writing they do, they do not have, they do 201 00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:48,000 Speaker 1: not check all of the boxes. Um. But then then 202 00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:50,280 Speaker 1: we do have people who I would accurately describe as 203 00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:52,960 Speaker 1: eco fascists who have done who've done you know, mass shootings, 204 00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:55,440 Speaker 1: who have a lot of eco who have eco fascist stuff, 205 00:11:55,720 --> 00:11:58,520 Speaker 1: either in the writing that they like or their own manifestos. 206 00:11:58,520 --> 00:12:00,480 Speaker 1: They bring up enough points it's like, yeah, you kind 207 00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:14,920 Speaker 1: of fall into this broad category. Does someone here want 208 00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:18,000 Speaker 1: to give their personal definition of ego fascism? This isn't 209 00:12:18,040 --> 00:12:20,679 Speaker 1: this not necessarily exactly what we used for the pod, 210 00:12:21,080 --> 00:12:22,559 Speaker 1: But I just I'm interested to here's a lot of 211 00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:25,880 Speaker 1: people with various backgrounds. Everyone has their own specialized knowledge. 212 00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:27,640 Speaker 1: What kind of when people say that, what, what do 213 00:12:27,679 --> 00:12:30,080 Speaker 1: you kind of put into that category? People believe in 214 00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:33,600 Speaker 1: like this organic law and like natural order, and they 215 00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:37,960 Speaker 1: believe that like there is a natural hierarchy ingrained in everything. 216 00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:43,920 Speaker 1: And I think that generally, like if we return to 217 00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:49,760 Speaker 1: like some kind of primitive society or like, you know, 218 00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:57,000 Speaker 1: they'll assume that like everything has uh, it's own structure, 219 00:12:57,000 --> 00:12:58,360 Speaker 1: and that there's going to be people who rise to 220 00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:04,240 Speaker 1: the top, people who just you know, uh don't belong 221 00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:05,960 Speaker 1: in that kind of society. It's going to be really 222 00:13:06,040 --> 00:13:09,959 Speaker 1: damaging for like the elderly, for disabled people, And they 223 00:13:10,040 --> 00:13:13,400 Speaker 1: just sort of see it as like survival of the 224 00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:15,880 Speaker 1: fist um. And I think that's like a much more 225 00:13:16,360 --> 00:13:18,800 Speaker 1: eco fascist point of view rather than like a more 226 00:13:19,040 --> 00:13:21,920 Speaker 1: green anarchist point of view where things would sort of 227 00:13:21,960 --> 00:13:27,000 Speaker 1: even out, um, rather than become a hierarchical Yeah. Yeah, 228 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:29,320 Speaker 1: I think hierarchy is an important part of that. And 229 00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:30,599 Speaker 1: how we you know, there is like a lot of 230 00:13:30,640 --> 00:13:33,120 Speaker 1: green anarchist who are focusing on like making their own 231 00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:35,959 Speaker 1: medication for for you know, people with diabetes and stuff. 232 00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:37,360 Speaker 1: That's kind of stuff that is like really interesting to 233 00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:39,680 Speaker 1: look at and stuff that we should absolutely pursue because 234 00:13:39,720 --> 00:13:42,240 Speaker 1: we'll become less reliance to apply chains. And we don't 235 00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:45,760 Speaker 1: really see eco fascists doing that. We do not see 236 00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:50,120 Speaker 1: them focusing on making medication for people. Oh no, maybe 237 00:13:50,160 --> 00:13:52,959 Speaker 1: I can kind of set some people up to say 238 00:13:52,960 --> 00:13:54,240 Speaker 1: more stuff if I say this is is real quickly. But 239 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:56,280 Speaker 1: one of the things that I always or that that 240 00:13:56,400 --> 00:13:58,800 Speaker 1: is a red flag for me is is just you know, 241 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:03,079 Speaker 1: bring in this very traditional discussions of gender roles and 242 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:09,120 Speaker 1: and relating that to the environment. Yeah, our rhetoric, I mean, 243 00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:11,559 Speaker 1: I don't we don't need to say names of specific 244 00:14:11,679 --> 00:14:17,720 Speaker 1: like writers are people, but there's definitely describe the general sure, yeah, 245 00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:22,120 Speaker 1: stop playing with the toy gun. Oh my god. Um, 246 00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:26,680 Speaker 1: just just like establishing and it is kind of it 247 00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:29,000 Speaker 1: can be kind of like an older left thing too, 248 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:34,880 Speaker 1: but establishing you know, ecological discussions within framework of traditional 249 00:14:35,280 --> 00:14:40,520 Speaker 1: gender roles um and kind of like what is expected 250 00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:43,600 Speaker 1: of people based on their sex. Yeah, this is this 251 00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:45,960 Speaker 1: is this is the dark side of cottage core. Yes, 252 00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:49,560 Speaker 1: that's one way to put it. I mean you want 253 00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:55,360 Speaker 1: to get in here, oh boy, yeah, I like parts 254 00:14:55,360 --> 00:14:57,640 Speaker 1: of cottage courts not want intersects with a certain strain 255 00:14:57,720 --> 00:15:03,000 Speaker 1: of politics, Like queer cottage core is extremely cute, sure 256 00:15:04,120 --> 00:15:07,600 Speaker 1: until yeah, well until you're not queer, and listen, you know, 257 00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:13,320 Speaker 1: sometimes they still are. Now here's the thing. When we're 258 00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:16,720 Speaker 1: when we're dealing with like traditional gender role stuff, it's 259 00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:24,440 Speaker 1: a really like slippery slope into more aggressive strains of thought. 260 00:15:25,040 --> 00:15:27,360 Speaker 1: So when we're when we're talking about the the idea 261 00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:38,560 Speaker 1: of of the class, we will podcast it's mass birthday. 262 00:15:38,640 --> 00:15:45,400 Speaker 1: You asked to apologize, Yeah, ripped to the editor. I 263 00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:50,400 Speaker 1: wouldn't know what that's so good. So when they're talking 264 00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:52,760 Speaker 1: about the claps and they want, you know, they think 265 00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:55,880 Speaker 1: the rod of modernity will be gone, society will be ended. 266 00:15:55,920 --> 00:15:57,920 Speaker 1: They can they can you know, rebuilt from the ground up, 267 00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:01,080 Speaker 1: smaller communities and Uh, they can. They can build the 268 00:16:01,160 --> 00:16:04,600 Speaker 1: society they want, which is largely a no nationalists. It's 269 00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:07,680 Speaker 1: not great. The the idea that there will be this 270 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:11,000 Speaker 1: this super traditional family structure. You're going to have your 271 00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:17,960 Speaker 1: this combined strong warrior also homesteading man and your cool 272 00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:21,920 Speaker 1: trad wife who never ages above thirty in this society. 273 00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:27,960 Speaker 1: Like I'm being generous here, assuming that at least like 274 00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:31,520 Speaker 1: some of these people have a little bit of like 275 00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:38,440 Speaker 1: pre planning. But they don't. They don't um, and they 276 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:40,840 Speaker 1: step on each other a lot, right because they have 277 00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:46,280 Speaker 1: this this whole plan for this uh, this society free 278 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:50,440 Speaker 1: of industry, um, and they can't stop posting about it 279 00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:54,240 Speaker 1: on the internet. It's really funny, right, Like they're not 280 00:16:54,760 --> 00:16:56,440 Speaker 1: they're not good at it. Yeah, they're like way too 281 00:16:56,440 --> 00:16:59,280 Speaker 1: addicted to posting to like actually commit to like the 282 00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:02,200 Speaker 1: true no off the grid trad life. At least at 283 00:17:02,280 --> 00:17:05,320 Speaker 1: least ten K was off the grid. We don't gotta 284 00:17:05,320 --> 00:17:08,560 Speaker 1: hand it to you. Go ahead, We don't gotta hand 285 00:17:08,560 --> 00:17:11,320 Speaker 1: it to it. You got ahead to you undergo circumstances 286 00:17:11,320 --> 00:17:13,960 Speaker 1: and got a hit. Todd is divided on how much 287 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:16,920 Speaker 1: we gotta hand it to, said K. The official stands 288 00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:19,000 Speaker 1: of terrorism bad? Is the terrorism is bad? Why don't 289 00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:20,960 Speaker 1: we just bring them on? It is kind of a 290 00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:24,119 Speaker 1: concern when they do end up when they stop posting. 291 00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:26,639 Speaker 1: I mean, it's a concert when they're posting, but it's 292 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:31,800 Speaker 1: kind of more concerning posted sometimes. Yeah. Yeah, it's the 293 00:17:31,840 --> 00:17:33,520 Speaker 1: same as like looking at a kid that wants to 294 00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:36,600 Speaker 1: be a firefighter or something like they're just talking. They're 295 00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:38,639 Speaker 1: not going to do it, but you see some of 296 00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:41,919 Speaker 1: the I'm doing and when they're doing the thing, the 297 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:45,919 Speaker 1: lifestyle influencer version of fascism. Yeah, do you think that 298 00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:50,399 Speaker 1: it's going to affect kind of like laws about living 299 00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:53,879 Speaker 1: off grid and laws about like for for normal people. 300 00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:56,800 Speaker 1: I just want to get the funk out. I actually 301 00:17:56,840 --> 00:17:58,800 Speaker 1: just read something about this. There's some guy who've been 302 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:01,639 Speaker 1: living off grid in pennsylvani for like thirty years and 303 00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:03,400 Speaker 1: I don't remember the details of this, and we don't 304 00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:08,680 Speaker 1: have internet out here. Burn house down. Yeah, he's in 305 00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:10,879 Speaker 1: jail now. He's probably gonna be in jail for the 306 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:13,600 Speaker 1: rest of his life. And I think part of whether 307 00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:16,200 Speaker 1: it comes from left through the right as people kind 308 00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:19,000 Speaker 1: of start to try to build resiliency within communities for 309 00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:21,919 Speaker 1: disasters that are coming and start to seek ways of 310 00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:24,000 Speaker 1: living that do not rely on supply chains and do 311 00:18:24,040 --> 00:18:26,800 Speaker 1: not rely on the state. The state will strike back 312 00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:30,520 Speaker 1: against that as a consolidation of power, because the more 313 00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:32,520 Speaker 1: that people move away from it, whether on the left 314 00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:35,080 Speaker 1: or right, the less power the state has. I mean, 315 00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:38,880 Speaker 1: and utilizing counter terrorism an excuse to do so, Yeah, 316 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:42,119 Speaker 1: because they're giving reasons and it's not it's not going 317 00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:47,000 Speaker 1: to get enforced equally. I'm sure that's gonna gonna focus 318 00:18:47,119 --> 00:18:50,520 Speaker 1: uncertain people doing this and be slightly more okay with 319 00:18:50,600 --> 00:18:55,719 Speaker 1: other people doing it. Yeah, what's so? I would like 320 00:18:55,800 --> 00:18:59,800 Speaker 1: to talk about Canada a little bit because specifically climate 321 00:18:59,840 --> 00:19:02,240 Speaker 1: change affecting Canada's can be varied. It's going to be 322 00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:04,639 Speaker 1: slightly different, and most of it can go to the States, 323 00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:06,920 Speaker 1: because I mean, I've been, I've been, I've been having 324 00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:09,920 Speaker 1: my my waist deep in climate science books for most 325 00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:16,480 Speaker 1: of UM, and Canada's gonna probably see economic boosts UM, 326 00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:19,240 Speaker 1: and they're probably the state's probably just gonna get actually 327 00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:22,880 Speaker 1: stronger because of how the same thing with Russia. Both 328 00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:25,560 Speaker 1: Canada and Russia are going to get more economically powerful 329 00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:27,479 Speaker 1: under climate change because of how much more props are 330 00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:31,160 Speaker 1: gonna get moved up. How give me your thoughts to Canada, 331 00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:33,320 Speaker 1: because in canada's my backup plan. It's gonna gets too 332 00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:35,840 Speaker 1: spicy in the States, I'm I'm taking my Canadian passport 333 00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:41,480 Speaker 1: and hiding in the woods. Um. How how it's it's 334 00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:44,560 Speaker 1: interesting to hear you guys talk about American mellistic culture 335 00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:47,879 Speaker 1: because we we definitely are rhetoric and propaganda that we 336 00:19:47,920 --> 00:19:50,720 Speaker 1: see in Canada gets borrowed a lot the talking points 337 00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:54,440 Speaker 1: from the States, like the concepts. But what we don't 338 00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:58,480 Speaker 1: have are these strong organized militia groups. We had three 339 00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:01,320 Speaker 1: per centers for a while, um and who still exists, 340 00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:04,320 Speaker 1: but they were they were big about being off right 341 00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:06,879 Speaker 1: like they were the ones who weren't posting for a 342 00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:09,679 Speaker 1: long time. UM. And it seems like as much as 343 00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:13,280 Speaker 1: all these people are still around, they've largely deflated, doubt 344 00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:16,560 Speaker 1: because Canada has made some some efforts to call them 345 00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:19,520 Speaker 1: terrorists right right. Very recently we designated them as a 346 00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:24,199 Speaker 1: terrorist organization, which doesn't carry a criminal charge. But if 347 00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:27,360 Speaker 1: you if you do something involved with them, you send 348 00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:29,800 Speaker 1: the money like there is there are consequences of that 349 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:35,600 Speaker 1: legal enhancements, um. But are are kind of militia culture 350 00:20:35,680 --> 00:20:41,000 Speaker 1: focuses on the illegitimacy of the state that Canada is founded. 351 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:44,320 Speaker 1: It's very kind of soft sit type rhetoric. But that 352 00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:48,359 Speaker 1: Canada's established, minutes, it's rules, and especially with all the 353 00:20:48,359 --> 00:20:53,040 Speaker 1: public health measures, it's this growing, uh, this growing kind 354 00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:56,840 Speaker 1: of tired of thought in both the prairies and largely 355 00:20:56,880 --> 00:21:12,320 Speaker 1: out west. I grew up a statute. Um, most of 356 00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:14,600 Speaker 1: my families in Alberta. I know when when I look 357 00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:16,600 Speaker 1: at when I because I keep a soft eye on 358 00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:19,240 Speaker 1: some Canadian hate groups just because I'm Canadian. Most of 359 00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:21,920 Speaker 1: them popped up around Alberta. Um, where do you see 360 00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:23,480 Speaker 1: this stuff kind of like happening, Like do you see 361 00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:25,080 Speaker 1: any of this on the East coast? If so, is 362 00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:27,040 Speaker 1: it's smaller or is this mostly on like a West 363 00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:31,320 Speaker 1: coast Canada thing. Well, that like that conspiratory thought we've 364 00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:33,760 Speaker 1: seen kind of across the country, like on the East coast. 365 00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:36,360 Speaker 1: You know, just recently we had people setting up their 366 00:21:36,359 --> 00:21:40,960 Speaker 1: own version of checkpoints um as like a protest against 367 00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:45,520 Speaker 1: the the public health measures, and like the whole eastern 368 00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:49,320 Speaker 1: part of Canada is in its own bubble right now. Um. 369 00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:54,080 Speaker 1: But yeah, you had this conspiracy based movement forming these 370 00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:57,600 Speaker 1: actual checkpoints. And then the main part of it though, 371 00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:00,520 Speaker 1: is probably going to be out west. That is where 372 00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:03,480 Speaker 1: these ideas are the most popular or the most popular. 373 00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:08,000 Speaker 1: That makes sense where mainstream politicians are moving towards, you know, 374 00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:11,760 Speaker 1: amplify these types of talking points. Do you see that 375 00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:15,120 Speaker 1: like is that is? Is that a mostly Alberta thing? 376 00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:19,959 Speaker 1: It's the mostly like prairies Alberta, the farmland. The interesting 377 00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:22,360 Speaker 1: part is that when you talk about groups is like Canada, 378 00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:25,880 Speaker 1: groups are an urban phenomenon. For the most part, most 379 00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:29,840 Speaker 1: of our organization takes place around the city centers, and 380 00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:32,040 Speaker 1: that is very different from the States. With the States, 381 00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:36,320 Speaker 1: that's it's usually the usually the opposite in some there's 382 00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:38,720 Speaker 1: there's always exceptions of too minimum people live, but generally 383 00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:39,960 Speaker 1: we see it as more of it's more of a 384 00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:42,760 Speaker 1: rule thing which teams organized, whereas cities are more like 385 00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:46,600 Speaker 1: liberal and that's what the anti fascist groups are based. Um. 386 00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:49,399 Speaker 1: But it's kind of these like these little ideological pockets 387 00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:52,439 Speaker 1: that exist all over and certainly that sentiment is probably shared, 388 00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:57,480 Speaker 1: but the need to mobilize seems to mostly focus on 389 00:22:57,520 --> 00:23:00,000 Speaker 1: the urban centers. And then we never have our group. 390 00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:04,040 Speaker 1: They don't providing any kind of age that's just or 391 00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:07,880 Speaker 1: even checkpoints like that's beyond these like very recent protest movements, 392 00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:10,720 Speaker 1: you know, and there has been no more forest fires 393 00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:16,520 Speaker 1: around BC, um, around you know what Western Alberta. Um. 394 00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:19,359 Speaker 1: How do you see the government's response these types of 395 00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:21,679 Speaker 1: things right now? And it can do is in a 396 00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:25,520 Speaker 1: particular situation with um, the Liberals having a minority control. 397 00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:29,399 Speaker 1: You know, the Canadian poet parliamentary system is probably confusing 398 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:32,119 Speaker 1: to love of Americans that they don't understand it already. UM. 399 00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:34,119 Speaker 1: But yeah, how how what do you what do you 400 00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:36,440 Speaker 1: see on on that front? You know, you know, trust 401 00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:38,560 Speaker 1: and true both look both true down Biden talk the 402 00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:40,720 Speaker 1: talk around like pipelines and stuff, and then do the 403 00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:43,280 Speaker 1: complete opposite. Um, how do you could have seen this 404 00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:45,399 Speaker 1: kind of stuff working right now? For for like on 405 00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:47,680 Speaker 1: the on the climate side of things, Well, yeah, our 406 00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:52,399 Speaker 1: our reaction to the firefighters or started reaction to the wildfires. Um. 407 00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:54,399 Speaker 1: I mean the government response has always looked out on 408 00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:57,639 Speaker 1: like it's always looked at poorly. UM. But none of 409 00:23:57,680 --> 00:23:59,840 Speaker 1: these people are taking this as an opportunity to kind 410 00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:03,880 Speaker 1: of change minds, kind of do pr um. There's much 411 00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:07,880 Speaker 1: less reaction to it. Most like the West. Also there's 412 00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:11,159 Speaker 1: this incredible feeling of alienation because of the way that 413 00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:15,920 Speaker 1: government is set up. They have substantially less or they 414 00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:18,560 Speaker 1: have substantially less voting power. Yeah, the same way in 415 00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:20,560 Speaker 1: the States, how you know, there's like there's acceling states 416 00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:22,120 Speaker 1: or states in the Midwest, you feel like they don't 417 00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:24,359 Speaker 1: really have any power politically. The same things for almost 418 00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:26,960 Speaker 1: the entire East, entire West Coast of Canada, everything from 419 00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:31,399 Speaker 1: like Manitoba to Alberta and parts of BC. Everyone is 420 00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:35,600 Speaker 1: very frustrated at at at the at the federal e's 421 00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:39,520 Speaker 1: um and how they really don't have control for what's happening. Like, yeah, 422 00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:42,000 Speaker 1: people in the East Coast are controlling and what what 423 00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:44,760 Speaker 1: our what our pipelines are, what our minds are doing, 424 00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:46,720 Speaker 1: and that does not fair to our workers, because yeah 425 00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:49,400 Speaker 1: it is. It does suck when you know, a mind 426 00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:51,600 Speaker 1: closes and then everyone in a small town is out 427 00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:54,000 Speaker 1: of business, like the part the part right in Canada, 428 00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:56,159 Speaker 1: almost Stanley around them, you know, used to be you know, 429 00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:59,120 Speaker 1: bustling small towns that are basically all all men ghost 430 00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:01,919 Speaker 1: towns be because stuff to close, people have to move 431 00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:07,080 Speaker 1: to either like Calgary, Edmonton, Regina, don't laugh. Um, So 432 00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:09,600 Speaker 1: you know all these specific things, you know, and we 433 00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:14,800 Speaker 1: see pockets, we see pockets, we see pockets of this 434 00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:20,440 Speaker 1: and like the good Western the States definitely also is 435 00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:24,000 Speaker 1: like manifest destination because like they are a lot of 436 00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:27,000 Speaker 1: it started with people kind of moving outward to try 437 00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:32,080 Speaker 1: and gain more land and make their borders um larger 438 00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:36,480 Speaker 1: and like live further out to like try and uh, 439 00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:38,919 Speaker 1: I don't know, I'll take me more territory. Um. And 440 00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:44,240 Speaker 1: with the like Canadian big surgeon like indigenous rights and 441 00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:47,840 Speaker 1: the big focus and shift to like sort of give 442 00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:50,560 Speaker 1: them land back or something. I'm not exactly clear on 443 00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:54,160 Speaker 1: what the Canadian stances are on that. Oh, just like 444 00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:57,160 Speaker 1: I mean we have a big movement from indigenous populations 445 00:25:57,280 --> 00:26:00,640 Speaker 1: to they seem very like the economic like well, there's 446 00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:04,080 Speaker 1: so many different bands and tribes in different types of nations, um, 447 00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:07,000 Speaker 1: like we have unseated territory, and the dynamics with which 448 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:09,080 Speaker 1: the government is supposed to deal with and has agreed 449 00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:11,719 Speaker 1: to deal with and actually does deal with them is 450 00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:16,840 Speaker 1: all vastly different. Um. But yeah, that that idea of 451 00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:20,680 Speaker 1: this focus on these particular issues, like indigenous issues, even 452 00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:24,000 Speaker 1: our attempts to you know, have a greener economy, you 453 00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:26,240 Speaker 1: know for a place that for a long time and 454 00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:30,720 Speaker 1: still is an extraction economy. Yes, Um, how does that 455 00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:35,000 Speaker 1: like a fact the oil company with healthcare more like 456 00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:39,000 Speaker 1: extremist far right groups who want to move out that way, um, 457 00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:42,240 Speaker 1: for the purpose of organizing. And you also have the 458 00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:45,879 Speaker 1: indigenous focus within the liberal government. So like, how do 459 00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:50,760 Speaker 1: those two groups do you think like interact? Uh? Like, 460 00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:54,640 Speaker 1: the general conception is that the push for indigenous rights, 461 00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:58,679 Speaker 1: especially on the farther right, is is for the dishent 462 00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:05,120 Speaker 1: franchifisement of white Europeans like it is um. And then yeah, 463 00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:08,040 Speaker 1: you do have this Western exodus where we have very 464 00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:12,280 Speaker 1: popular figures who are moving further west because they're these 465 00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:16,840 Speaker 1: stronger ideas of sovereignty. Um. I forget what exactly was pulling, 466 00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:21,840 Speaker 1: but when the Western exit or exit started, you know, 467 00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:25,880 Speaker 1: there was a significant amount of popular or at least 468 00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:29,320 Speaker 1: like not strong support, but like existing support there was 469 00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:31,480 Speaker 1: there was there was a there was a large amount 470 00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:34,359 Speaker 1: of support. Yeah. Absolutely, It'll be interesting to see what 471 00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:38,040 Speaker 1: happens though. Talking about collapse, like you know in these 472 00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:42,560 Speaker 1: small towns, in like cloistered communities, um, you know, they 473 00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:45,000 Speaker 1: already feel cut off from the government and not represented, 474 00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:47,840 Speaker 1: and then do you have a breakdown of infrastructure you know, 475 00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:49,879 Speaker 1: that will create why do we even happen in the 476 00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:52,280 Speaker 1: first place if they're not helping us? Which is which 477 00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:54,159 Speaker 1: which is true, which is like a well real thing 478 00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:57,200 Speaker 1: to think about. But their solutions are wildly different than 479 00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:00,520 Speaker 1: the actual solutions to help people. Right. How this plays 480 00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:03,719 Speaker 1: out in the past as well with UM, you know, 481 00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:07,800 Speaker 1: places where uh, the infrastructure starts to break down and 482 00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:12,639 Speaker 1: then people who have weapons kind of become the authority 483 00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:16,760 Speaker 1: just based on the fact that they have more power. Yeah. 484 00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:19,840 Speaker 1: So one of the things that I follow is a 485 00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:23,240 Speaker 1: lot of kind of like the more let's characterize it 486 00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:28,399 Speaker 1: as boomer esque conspiracy theories UM, especially with anti vax, 487 00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:34,399 Speaker 1: anti public health measures type thing UM. And one of 488 00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:38,040 Speaker 1: the things that that that really is noticeable to me 489 00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:42,360 Speaker 1: is how much more sovereign citizen stuff is creeping up 490 00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:48,160 Speaker 1: into those areas UM and especially you know, they're they're 491 00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:51,240 Speaker 1: two really big examples of you know, if there's an 492 00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:53,680 Speaker 1: anti vax protest in your city, it's probably one of 493 00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:57,320 Speaker 1: these two networks that both come from Europe UM that 494 00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:01,360 Speaker 1: I'm not going to name right now, UM and those 495 00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:04,920 Speaker 1: two networks also, you know, love to organize over the 496 00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:09,600 Speaker 1: messaging app Telegram, UM, and Telegram is tell me if 497 00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:13,000 Speaker 1: I'm stepping in it. I mean, Telegram is where you know, 498 00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:16,200 Speaker 1: so much of this ideology, this far right ideology is 499 00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:18,720 Speaker 1: able to cross mix and co mingle um. You know, 500 00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:22,040 Speaker 1: I we talked about Telegram in the pod. Okay, but 501 00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:24,600 Speaker 1: people are familiar, Yeah, stepped in it, yet keep going 502 00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:30,479 Speaker 1: yeah adjacent to yeah. So so I mean, my, my, 503 00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:32,880 Speaker 1: the biggest frame we're going to talk about this a 504 00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:35,720 Speaker 1: lot is is Telegram as kind of this technological body 505 00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:39,840 Speaker 1: of the cultic milieu because there is so like basically 506 00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:43,960 Speaker 1: no enforcement close to no enforcement on Telegram and so 507 00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:47,680 Speaker 1: you know, these these more malicious actors know that, and 508 00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:49,400 Speaker 1: they know that they can find an audience who is 509 00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:53,440 Speaker 1: interested in, you know, opposing the mainstream conspiratorial thought in 510 00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:56,840 Speaker 1: these kind of like boomer tell boomers on Telegram and 511 00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:59,959 Speaker 1: conspiracy groups and there are you know, milicitious actors plan 512 00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:03,280 Speaker 1: to go in and when these people over and you 513 00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:06,040 Speaker 1: know a lot of these molious actors are younger people 514 00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:08,040 Speaker 1: who don't have those resources, but they know that they 515 00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:10,640 Speaker 1: can win over these people who do have resources who 516 00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:13,320 Speaker 1: only and who have savings to kind of like fund 517 00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:16,040 Speaker 1: that movement if yeah, oh, I was just gonna say, 518 00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:18,120 Speaker 1: I do think that the cultic milliuse like a really 519 00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:23,320 Speaker 1: important heuristic for these kind of collapse scenarios, because the 520 00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:27,000 Speaker 1: question of what happens when kind of infrastructure and any 521 00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:30,320 Speaker 1: sort of political guidance falls away is governed a lot 522 00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:33,640 Speaker 1: by that, and like this idea that there's there are 523 00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:36,320 Speaker 1: these ideas flowing around in our society and once people 524 00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:39,480 Speaker 1: have nothing else turned to, these malicious actors will bring 525 00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:43,840 Speaker 1: this stuff in and uh yeah, to put it simply, 526 00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:48,360 Speaker 1: then we're pretty fucked. Yeah. Telegram also has recently started 527 00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:52,280 Speaker 1: to have to crack down people and um because of that, 528 00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:54,960 Speaker 1: you have this really interesting dichotomy of people who are saying, 529 00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:57,960 Speaker 1: like this means like get ready, get prepared, go off 530 00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:01,080 Speaker 1: grig guns, and you also on the other end people 531 00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:03,840 Speaker 1: who are saying, you know, create all tech platforms and 532 00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:12,160 Speaker 1: like create um more like self encryption and like, hello, 533 00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:15,000 Speaker 1: I'm trying not to step in right now. Yeah, yeah, 534 00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:19,320 Speaker 1: I'm but to be able to uh to speak more 535 00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:24,640 Speaker 1: peer like peer to peer resources. And that wraps up 536 00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:29,480 Speaker 1: part one of the Terrorism round Table discussion Thanks so 537 00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:31,920 Speaker 1: much for listening. You can find us at happen Here 538 00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:36,120 Speaker 1: pod and cool Zone Media on all of the socials UM. 539 00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:39,000 Speaker 1: You can find me at Hungry bow Tie UM, and 540 00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:42,000 Speaker 1: you can follow a decent amount of the researchers on 541 00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:45,320 Speaker 1: their podcast at Terrorism Bad, the podcast I Think I 542 00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:49,120 Speaker 1: Think It's just at Terrorism Bad anyway. Thanks for listening 543 00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:56,320 Speaker 1: to Part one, Part two drops tomorrow. Stay tuned. It 544 00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:58,640 Speaker 1: Could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media. 545 00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:01,760 Speaker 1: Well more podcasts from Zone Media. Visit our website cool 546 00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:03,800 Speaker 1: zone media dot com, or check us out on the 547 00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:06,520 Speaker 1: I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen 548 00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:09,520 Speaker 1: to podcasts. You can find sources for It could Happen Here, 549 00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:13,200 Speaker 1: updated monthly at cool zone Media dot com slash sources. 550 00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:14,080 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.