WEBVTT - Finale: What’s Next? 0:00:00.400 --> 0:00:03.920 The cheerleaders at a gym in Buffalo have been recording 0:00:03.960 --> 0:00:09.240 themselves to make a new documentary where the news reporters 0:00:09.240 --> 0:00:13.160 because one year ago a mass shooting changed their lives. 0:00:13.200 --> 0:00:15.400 He just walked around shot all the black people. The 0:00:15.480 --> 0:00:18.440 cheer squad, most of whom are black, had to figure 0:00:18.480 --> 0:00:21.160 out how to go on and how to compete. I 0:00:21.280 --> 0:00:23.840 wanted to win for them more than anything this season. 0:00:24.000 --> 0:00:28.640 Listen to the embedded podcast from NPR within the iHeartRadio app, 0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:32.720 or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Carol Fisher and 0:00:32.760 --> 0:00:36.800 I'm hosting a podcast called The Girlfriends. It's Las Vegas, 0:00:36.960 --> 0:00:40.200 it's the nineteen nineties, and it is time to find 0:00:40.240 --> 0:00:44.560 a husband. There were four Jewish doctors who were felt 0:00:44.600 --> 0:00:48.040 to be eligible bachelors. One of them was of the 0:00:48.640 --> 0:00:53.239 Baron bat On paper he was perfect, but in reality, 0:00:53.440 --> 0:00:58.080 this guy's a wacko. He shouted to the point went unconscious. 0:00:58.280 --> 0:01:00.560 I would call him and I would say, I know 0:01:00.600 --> 0:01:03.040 you killed my sister. You can listen to The girl 0:01:03.160 --> 0:01:07.440 Friends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you 0:01:07.480 --> 0:01:11.319 get your podcasts. Hello, Hello, Maltain Glovell. Here this year 0:01:11.440 --> 0:01:15.639 on Revisionist History, we're tackling more ambitious stories than ever, 0:01:16.240 --> 0:01:19.720 from how to fix education to what Americans get completely 0:01:19.720 --> 0:01:23.520 wrong about guns. We're debating with teenagers handing out awards 0:01:23.760 --> 0:01:28.920 and hunting for the perfect medical raccoon. 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This is the Pike 0:02:13.160 --> 0:02:17.720 to Massacre Return to Pike County Season two finale, What's Next? 0:02:24.200 --> 0:02:27.520 I'm Courtney Armstrong, a television producer at Katie's Studios with 0:02:27.560 --> 0:02:31.639 Stephanie Lydecker and Jeff Shane. For the finale of season two, 0:02:31.760 --> 0:02:34.560 we wanted to devote some time to answering listener questions. 0:02:35.360 --> 0:02:38.399 This season. You've really helped lead us down some interesting 0:02:38.440 --> 0:02:41.639 and unexpected roads. We culled through a bunch of submissions 0:02:41.680 --> 0:02:43.720 and picked out a few questions that we felt needed 0:02:43.720 --> 0:02:46.400 to be discussed. We also invited a group of our 0:02:46.440 --> 0:02:50.840 regular contributors to join reporters James Pilcher and Angette Levy, 0:02:50.960 --> 0:02:57.240 as well as forensics expert Joseph Morgan. Welcome to the finale. 0:02:57.520 --> 0:03:00.919 It's been quite a surprising season. It's been a shocking season, 0:03:00.960 --> 0:03:03.160 I think, yeah. I mean we started with a crazy 0:03:03.200 --> 0:03:07.160 turn of events, and now as we're learning more about 0:03:07.200 --> 0:03:10.360 the accused and the victims themselves, there's never a moment 0:03:10.360 --> 0:03:13.080 where I'm not surprised by this case and what happened. 0:03:13.080 --> 0:03:14.639 And I think as we learned more and as these 0:03:14.639 --> 0:03:17.120 trials start to happen, I think that's only going to continue. 0:03:17.639 --> 0:03:19.839 That is the thing that I think I loved most 0:03:19.919 --> 0:03:23.280 about this season is some of the unexpected turns that 0:03:23.320 --> 0:03:27.480 we took. Really, this show sort of unfolded real time, obviously, 0:03:27.520 --> 0:03:30.600 starting with the initial plea with Jake Wagner, but then 0:03:30.720 --> 0:03:34.359 also we've done a couple of stories that were guided 0:03:34.360 --> 0:03:37.200 by listeners that we dug into to really look at 0:03:37.240 --> 0:03:39.520 the area. We really spent a lot of time this 0:03:39.560 --> 0:03:43.000 week digging into questions that we've been following along the 0:03:43.040 --> 0:03:46.080 way over the course of both seasons. The three top 0:03:46.160 --> 0:03:49.000 things we got were, what are the details of what 0:03:49.040 --> 0:03:53.280 happened in Alaska? Where is Jake's wife Elizabeth? And who 0:03:53.400 --> 0:03:58.200 is the informant? And those questions drive each of us 0:03:58.240 --> 0:04:02.160 every day, and we do not know the answers, and 0:04:02.720 --> 0:04:07.480 we and journalists and experts have been digging, and the 0:04:07.600 --> 0:04:11.360 answers thus far have been impossible to come by, but 0:04:11.840 --> 0:04:13.960 that will not remain the case forever. We had a 0:04:13.960 --> 0:04:17.120 conversation today with two people that hopefully we can report 0:04:17.120 --> 0:04:20.640 back on that is mind blowing. And you know, that's 0:04:20.680 --> 0:04:22.200 a little bit of a piece of the puzzle. Right 0:04:22.600 --> 0:04:25.880 as we produce this podcast, as we produce anything, there 0:04:25.880 --> 0:04:28.160 are certain conversations that happen on the record, There are 0:04:28.200 --> 0:04:31.440 certain that happened off the record. Obviously, legally speaking, we 0:04:31.480 --> 0:04:34.080 have to have perfect releases in order for us to 0:04:34.120 --> 0:04:38.000 air certain pieces of information, you know, gossip, conjecture, things 0:04:38.000 --> 0:04:41.320 that are a matter of non fact, are not usable 0:04:41.760 --> 0:04:45.159 and because of the gag order at this exact second, 0:04:45.440 --> 0:04:49.400 it's maddening because we get to speak to certain people 0:04:49.480 --> 0:04:55.600 and we're not able to share that information. Mike from Asheville, 0:04:55.640 --> 0:04:57.880 North Carolina wrote, why did you guys do all these 0:04:57.920 --> 0:05:00.760 break off episodes like the Michael Moran story and the 0:05:00.760 --> 0:05:04.840 Curtis Francis story. Listeners wrote into us and gave us 0:05:04.839 --> 0:05:07.200 a heads up to be looking into these stories deeper, 0:05:07.360 --> 0:05:10.120 which was fascinating because truthfully, I don't know that we 0:05:10.160 --> 0:05:13.200 would have gone down that path had Listeners not reached 0:05:13.200 --> 0:05:16.320 out and alerted us to other stories that were happening 0:05:16.320 --> 0:05:18.920 in the area, which really does speak to the totality 0:05:19.120 --> 0:05:22.200 of crime in a really specific pocket of the country. 0:05:22.480 --> 0:05:26.440 They definitely spoke to this theme of injustice in the community, 0:05:26.480 --> 0:05:28.640 and I mean, these were happening in the rodent's backyard, 0:05:28.720 --> 0:05:30.840 and so to not mention them would feel like we 0:05:30.839 --> 0:05:33.920 were not telling the complete story of this community. And 0:05:34.400 --> 0:05:36.479 like the road in case, the Curtis Francis case is 0:05:36.480 --> 0:05:41.279 so complicated and so tragic, and the benefit of having 0:05:41.360 --> 0:05:44.240 a season two is really being able to explore some 0:05:44.320 --> 0:05:46.560 of these stories more. In the same way we were 0:05:46.600 --> 0:05:49.200 able to expand on the Rodents story at the Gilly story. 0:05:49.279 --> 0:05:51.520 We were able to do that with Curtis Francis, which 0:05:51.560 --> 0:05:54.080 is an honor to be able to do that. And 0:05:54.160 --> 0:05:58.640 so my question to you, James, so you report extensively 0:05:58.720 --> 0:06:01.960 on Michael Moran, why was that story important to you? 0:06:02.320 --> 0:06:04.919 And how, if it all, does it relate back to 0:06:05.120 --> 0:06:08.400 the road in case? As I said in the episode, 0:06:08.520 --> 0:06:10.960 and I still feel this that I feel I owe 0:06:11.000 --> 0:06:14.839 these women the truth that you know, there's was a 0:06:14.839 --> 0:06:18.080 part of me looking at it from my male, white 0:06:18.120 --> 0:06:22.880 privileged perspective that this stuff didn't really happen. You know, 0:06:22.920 --> 0:06:25.400 I had no idea, so I almost didn't believe it 0:06:25.440 --> 0:06:28.119 at first, and so when I found out it was true, 0:06:28.160 --> 0:06:30.960 it became like almost a mission of mine to say, 0:06:31.000 --> 0:06:33.039 you know what, more people need to know about this 0:06:33.160 --> 0:06:36.200 kind of thing. So that's for the Moran story specifically, 0:06:36.200 --> 0:06:40.760 and sex trafficking. I've done subsequent stories about sex trafficking 0:06:40.760 --> 0:06:42.960 in the numbers, state by state. So yeah, that's been 0:06:43.040 --> 0:06:47.359 a major focus of mine since I started reporting this story. 0:06:47.720 --> 0:06:50.119 As a legal disclaimer, we should note that Michael Moran 0:06:50.200 --> 0:06:53.960 has been arrested on charges including human trafficking and promoting prostitution. 0:06:54.240 --> 0:06:56.680 He has pleaded not guilty to all charges and denied 0:06:56.720 --> 0:07:00.640 any ties to sex trafficking. He's currently awaiting trial. How 0:07:00.680 --> 0:07:03.039 it relates back, you know, I wouldn't say that. You know, 0:07:03.080 --> 0:07:07.040 there's not a direct correlation between the Wagner's and Michael 0:07:07.080 --> 0:07:10.320 Moran or the Rodents and Michael Moran. I think it 0:07:10.400 --> 0:07:13.400 just gets to this aspect of rural America that most 0:07:13.400 --> 0:07:16.480 people don't see, and that law enforcement in that part 0:07:16.520 --> 0:07:18.440 of the country and these parts of the country just 0:07:18.520 --> 0:07:25.280 isn't equipped to handle these multifaceted, in depth, complicated investigations. 0:07:25.400 --> 0:07:28.239 And you guys covered it when you covered the Hopper 0:07:28.320 --> 0:07:33.000 Road episode. I completely admire what Jodie Barr did with 0:07:33.720 --> 0:07:38.160 the Hopper Roads story and how even if they don't 0:07:38.200 --> 0:07:41.680 get a conviction, at least people have an understanding of 0:07:41.720 --> 0:07:44.720 what might have happened. Out to Jodie Barr for what 0:07:44.800 --> 0:07:46.480 he did in that story, because he really did. He 0:07:46.600 --> 0:07:50.360 changed people's lives, you know exactly. You know. I saw 0:07:50.440 --> 0:07:53.360 something today. I won't name the publication, but there's a 0:07:53.400 --> 0:07:57.280 story out there saying that true crime is booming and whatever. 0:07:57.480 --> 0:08:00.600 But it is nothing more than a love letter to 0:08:00.680 --> 0:08:04.320 law enforcement. And I want to write the author and said, 0:08:04.360 --> 0:08:07.560 have you listened to any of this? Have you listened 0:08:07.600 --> 0:08:10.440 to some of the stuff that you guys have done 0:08:10.480 --> 0:08:13.040 and some other of my colleagues have done. No, this 0:08:13.120 --> 0:08:16.720 is about unsolved. Why isn't this mystery solved? So I 0:08:16.880 --> 0:08:19.520 completely You know, there are people who think, oh, true 0:08:19.520 --> 0:08:22.440 crime is nothing more than making the cops look good. Well, no, 0:08:22.760 --> 0:08:25.640 I completely disagree with that. It's as much about holding 0:08:25.640 --> 0:08:28.360 the cops accountable as it is about telling the stories 0:08:28.400 --> 0:08:30.760 of the victims. And by the way things go away 0:08:30.760 --> 0:08:33.400 in the night, if nobody's talking about something, it just 0:08:33.440 --> 0:08:36.000 gets swept under the rug. And likely when you take 0:08:36.040 --> 0:08:37.720 a closer look, which we get the benefit of doing 0:08:37.760 --> 0:08:40.760 in a podcast of again the totality of the abuse 0:08:40.800 --> 0:08:43.600 of power, or a real look at how things are 0:08:43.640 --> 0:08:46.720 being covered and are they being covered enough? And are 0:08:46.760 --> 0:08:51.199 these cases being highlighted enough? You know, oftentimes listen, investigators 0:08:51.240 --> 0:08:53.120 are investigating as much as they can and as fast 0:08:53.160 --> 0:08:54.839 as they can. We get the benefit of being a 0:08:54.880 --> 0:08:58.240 little bit courtside and taking even a closer look, with 0:08:58.640 --> 0:09:01.360 the benefit of tons of time in The hope really 0:09:01.480 --> 0:09:04.319 always is to hopefully move the needle to either move 0:09:04.320 --> 0:09:07.079 a case forward and or to make sure it doesn't 0:09:07.080 --> 0:09:14.240 happen again. Zach from Wilmington, Delaware asked have there been 0:09:14.280 --> 0:09:17.199 efforts to reach back out to the Wagner family members 0:09:17.440 --> 0:09:20.960 whatever happened to Deray, the Wagner relative from season one. 0:09:21.559 --> 0:09:24.800 We've spoken to Deray numerous times since the hearing. She 0:09:24.920 --> 0:09:27.600 was one of our first phone calls, and it is 0:09:28.080 --> 0:09:30.680 obviously very raw for her. I mean, she spent, as 0:09:30.720 --> 0:09:33.840 listeners know, a lot of time proclaiming her family's innocence, 0:09:34.120 --> 0:09:37.280 and Deray I think is heartbroken, and that is the 0:09:37.320 --> 0:09:40.160 only way to put it. And she declined to participate 0:09:40.200 --> 0:09:42.520 this season because I think she is not sure how 0:09:42.559 --> 0:09:44.720 to feel and how even if she was sure how 0:09:44.760 --> 0:09:47.120 to feel, how to even explain that to the masses. 0:09:47.559 --> 0:09:51.440 Could you imagine anything more horrifying? Of course, we defend 0:09:51.440 --> 0:09:53.560 our families, and my understanding was I'm not sure if 0:09:53.600 --> 0:09:56.720 Deray had directly spoken to Jake, but I know that 0:09:56.960 --> 0:09:59.679 Jake was giving the impression to at least his grandmother 0:09:59.720 --> 0:10:02.680 that he was innocent, and so they were shocked that 0:10:03.120 --> 0:10:05.480 all of a sudden, he's in the courtroom saying the 0:10:05.480 --> 0:10:07.719 opposite of that, So you know what I spoke to 0:10:07.800 --> 0:10:11.560 Dry the day of the hearing. She was confused. She thought, 0:10:11.600 --> 0:10:13.280 did someone put him up to this? Is he not 0:10:13.360 --> 0:10:15.360 in the right frame of mind. She wasn't sure what 0:10:15.440 --> 0:10:17.200 was going on because this was not the person that 0:10:17.280 --> 0:10:21.800 she had known for his entire life. So my question, Anginette, 0:10:22.040 --> 0:10:24.679 is what has your experience been reaching out to the 0:10:24.720 --> 0:10:28.000 Wagner family members if you have, well, I've only really 0:10:28.000 --> 0:10:32.560 reached out to the lawyer's Billy Wagner's lawyer got back 0:10:32.559 --> 0:10:36.160 to me very politely and just you know, said that 0:10:36.800 --> 0:10:39.480 anytime there's a crime with multiple defendants, you know that 0:10:39.520 --> 0:10:41.920 one of them may or may not, So you don't 0:10:41.920 --> 0:10:44.800 see that there's always that chance and they're going to 0:10:44.840 --> 0:10:47.439 look at the case that type of thing. I didn't 0:10:47.480 --> 0:10:50.840 really reach out to Frederica or anything like that. Anytime 0:10:50.840 --> 0:10:54.640 I've done that, it's not been fruitful. So I just 0:10:54.679 --> 0:10:57.600 didn't see any point I've reached after in the past, 0:10:57.840 --> 0:11:03.079 and she doesn't say anything. Frederica Wagner had been very 0:11:03.160 --> 0:11:07.199 vocal and speaking to the press, and as of today, 0:11:07.320 --> 0:11:10.160 she has not said one thing publicly about her family 0:11:10.840 --> 0:11:15.040 since Jake has played out. So I'm curious what's going 0:11:15.120 --> 0:11:19.839 on with her personally and also what the implications will 0:11:19.880 --> 0:11:24.400 be in the upcoming trials. Same with Rita Joe Nukam, 0:11:24.960 --> 0:11:29.560 Angela's mother. I'm personally fascinated by the grandmothers. Frederica seems 0:11:29.600 --> 0:11:33.600 to be a complicated person. I mean, Frederica, as we know, 0:11:34.040 --> 0:11:36.840 is a staple in the community in terms of her 0:11:36.880 --> 0:11:39.760 presence with real estate and businesses. I just think about 0:11:39.760 --> 0:11:41.800 the ripple effects of the crime and how it's going 0:11:41.840 --> 0:11:48.560 to affect Pike County for years to come. Angie from 0:11:48.600 --> 0:11:52.080 Carl's Bad New Mexico wants to know how covering this story, 0:11:52.400 --> 0:11:55.960 how has it affected you personally or professionally. I would say, 0:11:56.000 --> 0:11:58.800 I think it makes me think about trust, certainly about 0:11:58.800 --> 0:12:02.040 who you have in your life and the relationships you have, 0:12:02.200 --> 0:12:06.360 Because whether it's Jake and Hannah Roden's relationship or it's 0:12:06.400 --> 0:12:09.160 now Jake Wagner and the rest of his family, I 0:12:09.200 --> 0:12:11.800 think it is a little bit be careful who you trust. Yeah, 0:12:11.840 --> 0:12:14.559 this is one of those real cases of the boogeyman 0:12:14.800 --> 0:12:18.880 is not out there, it's in your circle. And not 0:12:18.960 --> 0:12:21.680 only in your circle. These were people that were really 0:12:21.720 --> 0:12:24.000 close friends, the Wagners, and the Rodents. We know we're 0:12:24.400 --> 0:12:28.719 extremely tight, way more than was earlier reported. So I 0:12:28.760 --> 0:12:32.560 think for all of us, that's been the nauseating element here. 0:12:32.880 --> 0:12:34.480 That's been the part that you can't kind of shake, 0:12:34.559 --> 0:12:36.640 where you think you'd have a sixth sense about it, 0:12:36.800 --> 0:12:39.959 or you would meet somebody and you would know they're 0:12:40.040 --> 0:12:42.200 bad news, they're going to bring very bad things to 0:12:42.280 --> 0:12:45.079 our family. Yet that wasn't the case at all. They 0:12:45.080 --> 0:12:48.720 were at the same wedding, hugging and chummy and you know, 0:12:48.920 --> 0:12:53.040 really shared beautiful times together. So at what point does 0:12:53.120 --> 0:12:56.960 that tip over? I think has been a real fascination 0:12:57.000 --> 0:13:01.160 of ours. And then I'd oppose the same thing to you, Joseph. 0:13:01.400 --> 0:13:04.360 Let me just say in two thy sixteen, I've been 0:13:04.960 --> 0:13:08.440 you know, kind of neck deep and covering crime for 0:13:08.480 --> 0:13:12.760 a while now on a lot of networks and whatnot, 0:13:12.880 --> 0:13:15.000 really big cases, and there there were a lot of 0:13:15.000 --> 0:13:18.560 big cases in twenty sixteen. But I have to confess 0:13:19.080 --> 0:13:23.760 when the road In case hit, I was actually covering 0:13:23.840 --> 0:13:27.440 it with HLN and Nancy Grace and we've gone on 0:13:27.520 --> 0:13:30.120 to you know, to talk about it. Nancy and I 0:13:30.160 --> 0:13:34.080 have extensively on air and particularly at that time, and 0:13:34.400 --> 0:13:36.200 one of the things that struck me about it being 0:13:36.240 --> 0:13:40.160 a guy that comes from these rural routes like I do, 0:13:40.480 --> 0:13:42.640 you know, kind of country mouse comes a big city 0:13:42.720 --> 0:13:45.680 kind of thing. I've never seen or heard of anything 0:13:45.720 --> 0:13:48.520 like that in my entire life. I was just amazed. 0:13:48.559 --> 0:13:51.880 And then when you go out to those locations, you 0:13:51.920 --> 0:13:54.600 get out and you look at this property and I 0:13:54.640 --> 0:13:58.599 don't know the word, I'd say emptiness, but there's a 0:13:59.280 --> 0:14:03.480 vacancy to it. And you know that you get out 0:14:03.520 --> 0:14:06.600 there and you see what may have been there and 0:14:06.640 --> 0:14:10.760 it's no longer there Isn't that really really something that 0:14:10.920 --> 0:14:13.240 kind of resonates with you, you know how how it 0:14:13.400 --> 0:14:16.960 leaves this this huge scar throughout that community. You know, 0:14:17.160 --> 0:14:21.400 this this vacancy. But yet it's it's haunted. It's haunted. 0:14:21.440 --> 0:14:24.080 And you know, I'm not saying that in a sense of, 0:14:24.160 --> 0:14:26.440 you know, some kind of ghost tale or something. I'm 0:14:26.440 --> 0:14:30.240 saying it's a haunted place in this sense. This is 0:14:30.240 --> 0:14:33.480 a kind of event that years from now, kids are 0:14:33.480 --> 0:14:36.440 going to be sitting around campfires, you know, fifty years 0:14:36.440 --> 0:14:38.720 from now, and they're going to be saying, hey, you 0:14:38.800 --> 0:14:41.280 want to hear a ghost story. You want to hear 0:14:41.520 --> 0:14:44.280 about the worst thing that ever happened. And so right 0:14:44.280 --> 0:14:46.560 now it's a very urgent thing. We're waiting on trials 0:14:46.560 --> 0:14:48.840 and all that sort of thing. But then it leaps 0:14:48.880 --> 0:14:52.000 over and into into the mythology of a place, and 0:14:52.040 --> 0:14:54.720 that's going to happen. That will happen, and this will 0:14:54.760 --> 0:15:02.320 be something that will be rememberable. We're going to take 0:15:02.320 --> 0:15:10.360 a quick break here. We'll be back in a moment. Oh. 0:15:10.400 --> 0:15:13.400 I'm Carol Fisher, and I'm hosting a podcast called The 0:15:13.440 --> 0:15:16.880 Girl Friends. Back in the nineteen nineties in Las Vegas, 0:15:17.160 --> 0:15:21.600 a few of us dated the most eligible bachelor in town, Bob. 0:15:22.120 --> 0:15:27.920 He spoke several languages, he did medical missionary work, and 0:15:28.200 --> 0:15:32.400 he was Jewish. He was perfect on paper, but he wasn't. 0:15:32.680 --> 0:15:36.360 He really wasn't. He shouted and to the point she 0:15:36.640 --> 0:15:41.560 went unconscious. Bob could lie about anything, but only takes 0:15:41.720 --> 0:15:45.800 the one time when somebody ends up dead. Unfortunately for Bob, 0:15:46.000 --> 0:15:49.040 us girlfriends know how to fight back. I wanted him 0:15:49.040 --> 0:15:51.760 to pay for his crime. He needed to be put 0:15:51.760 --> 0:15:53.880 to justice. I'll be honest with you. If I saw 0:15:53.920 --> 0:15:55.840 him right now, I'd spit on him. I would call 0:15:55.920 --> 0:15:58.760 him and I would say, I know you killed my sister. 0:15:59.120 --> 0:16:01.880 I will always is hound you and haunt you. You 0:16:01.920 --> 0:16:06.400 can listen to the girlfriends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, 0:16:06.680 --> 0:16:11.560 or wherever you get your podcasts. LA's reputation not so great. 0:16:12.120 --> 0:16:15.400 People from LA will have a very superficial, nice conversation 0:16:15.440 --> 0:16:17.440 with you, and they won't lift a finger to help 0:16:17.480 --> 0:16:22.120 you to people represent vapidity, stops that like oh the 0:16:22.160 --> 0:16:26.000 best calls like oh shoot leave. As someone born and 0:16:26.080 --> 0:16:28.640 raised here, I can tell you there's much more to 0:16:28.800 --> 0:16:32.840 LA than this. My name is James Kim, and I'm 0:16:32.880 --> 0:16:36.000 the creator of a new anthology fiction podcast, call You 0:16:36.080 --> 0:16:40.720 Feeling This. It's ten different stories about La and the 0:16:40.800 --> 0:16:45.240 real people who make up this city. What did you 0:16:45.360 --> 0:16:48.000 listen to my message? We're just trying to get bought. 0:16:48.360 --> 0:16:51.800 I think I was just freaking out because I'm scared 0:16:52.320 --> 0:16:55.040 by connecting with each other. I'm going to be a father. 0:16:55.400 --> 0:17:00.720 Ye Are you Feeling This? A fiction pod cast mixtape 0:17:00.800 --> 0:17:05.320 about love. Listen to it on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, 0:17:05.680 --> 0:17:10.680 or wherever you get your podcast. She's a Hollywood Western. 0:17:11.520 --> 0:17:14.959 She's Jack Harrouac, but in a nap dress with braids. 0:17:15.520 --> 0:17:20.680 She is one of the most important American children's authors 0:17:20.880 --> 0:17:24.760 of the twentieth century. She's the basis for its television show, 0:17:24.920 --> 0:17:28.720 still watched around the world. Somebody somewhere is watching A 0:17:28.720 --> 0:17:32.240 Little as the Birth. She's been called a hero, a racist, 0:17:32.560 --> 0:17:36.399 a feminist, and a propagandist. I think the harm is 0:17:36.400 --> 0:17:39.320 too great because it's just one more thing that Native 0:17:39.359 --> 0:17:44.760 children have to endure. She is Laura Ingles Wilder, author 0:17:44.800 --> 0:17:48.000 of the book series Little House on the Prairie. As 0:17:48.000 --> 0:17:51.320 a kid, I idolized Laura, and last summer I went 0:17:51.359 --> 0:17:54.280 on the road in search of the real Laura. We're 0:17:54.320 --> 0:17:59.960 literally on the prairie. What I found was a complicated 0:18:00.119 --> 0:18:05.400 person alongside the complicated country she represents. I'm Glennis McNicol 0:18:05.800 --> 0:18:10.920 in This is Wilder. Listen to Wilder on the iHeartRadio app, 0:18:11.000 --> 0:18:16.119 Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, and 0:18:16.200 --> 0:18:19.160 welcome to Bad Manners. This is the podcast that takes 0:18:19.160 --> 0:18:22.560 you inside Britain's stately homes and tells all the tales 0:18:22.800 --> 0:18:26.280 the guide books don't. My name is Tom Horton and 0:18:26.320 --> 0:18:30.240 I'll be your host. Britain is riddled with the big houses, 0:18:30.320 --> 0:18:34.959 from crumbling castles, massive mansions and stately piles. Bigger than 0:18:35.000 --> 0:18:37.960 Buckingham Palace. As a comedian, I'm not really bothered about 0:18:38.000 --> 0:18:40.200 the facts and figures. I just want the juicy stuff. 0:18:40.240 --> 0:18:42.480 So I'm on a mission to find out the frightening, 0:18:42.840 --> 0:18:46.880 filthy and downright jaw dropping stories of these stately homes 0:18:46.880 --> 0:18:51.440 and the people in them. This podcast ventures deep inside 0:18:51.440 --> 0:18:55.399 some of Britain's most incredible and outrageous buildings to spill 0:18:55.480 --> 0:19:00.439 the tea on the scandalous, scary, shocking, and hilarious tales. 0:19:00.600 --> 0:19:03.800 So if you want to get historically horrid, royally raucous 0:19:04.080 --> 0:19:07.680 and down some dirty look though that, listen to Bad 0:19:07.720 --> 0:19:11.720 Manners on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you 0:19:11.760 --> 0:19:25.119 get your podcasts. Anginette. Has covering this case had an 0:19:25.160 --> 0:19:28.400 impact on any way you report now or has it 0:19:28.440 --> 0:19:32.159 affected you personally or professionally. I think that's hard to answer. 0:19:32.240 --> 0:19:35.359 I think you know, some stories change the way you 0:19:35.440 --> 0:19:38.359 report or make you look at things differently. You know. 0:19:38.359 --> 0:19:41.080 I kind of approached this like I approached any story. 0:19:41.119 --> 0:19:43.520 I just wanted to know the truth and figure out 0:19:43.600 --> 0:19:46.520 what happened and try to help you know, if we 0:19:46.640 --> 0:19:50.920 could bring some light to what happened. So, I mean, 0:19:51.440 --> 0:19:54.080 it was very sad to me. I mean, I it 0:19:54.160 --> 0:19:56.480 was just it's just awful when you would watch the 0:19:56.520 --> 0:19:59.119 family and go individuals and stuff like that, and you 0:19:59.160 --> 0:20:01.360 would see what they we're going through. And there were 0:20:01.359 --> 0:20:03.800 sometimes where I felt like the family wasn't treated very 0:20:03.840 --> 0:20:07.840 well by some media. You know. I feel like I 0:20:07.920 --> 0:20:10.919 tried to always treat them, the family, the Roden family, 0:20:10.920 --> 0:20:13.800 with kindness, as I do everybody on a story with 0:20:14.000 --> 0:20:16.560 unless they're you know, like a politician and then you 0:20:16.680 --> 0:20:20.120 chase them these straight or whatever. But I just feel 0:20:20.119 --> 0:20:22.800 like it maybe gave me a greater appreciation for the 0:20:22.920 --> 0:20:26.440 loss that people really suffer, just because of the children 0:20:26.480 --> 0:20:29.560 involved in this, of course, but just you know, just 0:20:29.600 --> 0:20:32.719 the senseless This was like truly you hear people say, 0:20:32.760 --> 0:20:35.520 well it was senseless, Well, and all killings are pretty 0:20:35.560 --> 0:20:39.240 much senseless, but this was really really on another level, 0:20:39.880 --> 0:20:43.679 and so I think the humanity just talking to Leonard 0:20:43.720 --> 0:20:47.199 Manly and seeing the pain that it brought him and 0:20:47.280 --> 0:20:51.199 his family, and seeing Geneva Roden, and you could just 0:20:51.280 --> 0:20:54.080 see the pain on her face when she would come 0:20:54.080 --> 0:20:56.880 to court, just dutifully coming to court. You know, there's 0:20:56.920 --> 0:20:59.800 no elevator out there at the Pike County courthouse, she 0:21:00.080 --> 0:21:02.680 have to like walk up the stairs each time with 0:21:02.680 --> 0:21:05.040 her cane, and she has a bad foot, And in 0:21:05.200 --> 0:21:08.080 telling this story, just really so try to focus the 0:21:08.119 --> 0:21:10.480 best you can on the loss, or at least bring 0:21:10.480 --> 0:21:13.560 that through in the storytelling. I feel like I just 0:21:13.640 --> 0:21:16.240 I learned something from every story I cover and it 0:21:16.320 --> 0:21:19.639 probably changes me, you know in some ways, you know, 0:21:19.680 --> 0:21:25.600 you learn and e Bold, I know a couple of 0:21:25.600 --> 0:21:28.880 you are parents, and it sounds so cliche, but it's 0:21:28.880 --> 0:21:30.520 so true, Like even you know, when I have my 0:21:30.560 --> 0:21:34.400 mind in this case particularly, it really makes you grateful 0:21:34.440 --> 0:21:37.160 for what you have, knowing what can be lost like that. 0:21:37.560 --> 0:21:39.879 Oh yeah, I would agree with you one hundred percent 0:21:39.920 --> 0:21:42.639 on that. And I feel for those kids. Obviously I 0:21:42.680 --> 0:21:45.040 don't know any of these children, but just the thought 0:21:45.119 --> 0:21:49.080 of children growing up not knowing their parents now because 0:21:49.119 --> 0:21:52.080 of this that's going to happen. I try to keep 0:21:52.080 --> 0:21:54.439 my emotions separate, but it's hard. You know, sometimes you 0:21:54.480 --> 0:21:57.199 come home and you look at your own children and 0:21:57.480 --> 0:22:00.520 you just think, God, what would happen if my child 0:22:00.640 --> 0:22:03.080 was less because of that? And you try to really 0:22:03.119 --> 0:22:06.480 put yourself in that plenty, and it's just I can't 0:22:06.480 --> 0:22:09.320 even imagine. I just hope this kid are going to 0:22:09.359 --> 0:22:13.320 grow up and be okay. You know, we get up 0:22:13.320 --> 0:22:15.600 in the morning every day and think about people who 0:22:15.600 --> 0:22:19.000 we've never met, and think about families who we never 0:22:19.040 --> 0:22:21.719 will outside of the interviews that we have the benefit 0:22:21.760 --> 0:22:24.159 of doing. And I can speak for all of us 0:22:24.200 --> 0:22:26.800 to say, if you speak to a person, whether it's 0:22:26.800 --> 0:22:29.040 on a phone or on a zoom or eye to 0:22:29.119 --> 0:22:32.080 eye in the same room, and their entire family has 0:22:32.119 --> 0:22:35.280 been slaughtered, and they can sit before us and tell 0:22:35.359 --> 0:22:38.199 their tale and have the wherewithal and the composure to 0:22:38.200 --> 0:22:40.720 be able to push on in their world. Certainly we 0:22:40.760 --> 0:22:42.840 can tell their stories, and we also can push on 0:22:42.960 --> 0:22:46.320 in our world. And I think that's very inspiring in 0:22:46.560 --> 0:22:50.959 a way. We've been wildly inspired by this case in 0:22:51.000 --> 0:22:53.440 ways I can quite describe. The Rodent family has become 0:22:53.480 --> 0:22:59.000 a piece of our DNA. Do we know for sure 0:22:59.200 --> 0:23:02.160 George's trial will be next and do we know what 0:23:02.200 --> 0:23:05.120 the order is yet? All we know is that George's 0:23:05.200 --> 0:23:07.840 trial is the only one who's been scheduled. They might 0:23:07.880 --> 0:23:11.680