1 00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:03,920 Speaker 1: The cheerleaders at a gym in Buffalo have been recording 2 00:00:03,960 --> 00:00:09,240 Speaker 1: themselves to make a new documentary where the news reporters 3 00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:13,160 Speaker 1: because one year ago a mass shooting changed their lives. 4 00:00:13,200 --> 00:00:15,400 Speaker 1: He just walked around shot all the black people. The 5 00:00:15,480 --> 00:00:18,440 Speaker 1: cheer squad, most of whom are black, had to figure 6 00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:21,160 Speaker 1: out how to go on and how to compete. I 7 00:00:21,280 --> 00:00:23,840 Speaker 1: wanted to win for them more than anything this season. 8 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:28,640 Speaker 1: Listen to the embedded podcast from NPR within the iHeartRadio app, 9 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:32,720 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Carol Fisher and 10 00:00:32,760 --> 00:00:36,800 Speaker 1: I'm hosting a podcast called The Girlfriends. It's Las Vegas, 11 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:40,200 Speaker 1: it's the nineteen nineties, and it is time to find 12 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:44,560 Speaker 1: a husband. There were four Jewish doctors who were felt 13 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:48,040 Speaker 1: to be eligible bachelors. One of them was of the 14 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:53,239 Speaker 1: Baron bat On paper he was perfect, but in reality, 15 00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:58,080 Speaker 1: this guy's a wacko. He shouted to the point went unconscious. 16 00:00:58,280 --> 00:01:00,560 Speaker 1: I would call him and I would say, I know 17 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:03,040 Speaker 1: you killed my sister. You can listen to The girl 18 00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 1: Friends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you 19 00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:11,319 Speaker 1: get your podcasts. Hello, Hello, Maltain Glovell. Here this year 20 00:01:11,440 --> 00:01:15,639 Speaker 1: on Revisionist History, we're tackling more ambitious stories than ever, 21 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:19,720 Speaker 1: from how to fix education to what Americans get completely 22 00:01:19,720 --> 00:01:23,520 Speaker 1: wrong about guns. We're debating with teenagers handing out awards 23 00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:28,920 Speaker 1: and hunting for the perfect medical raccoon. This is, after all, 24 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:33,160 Speaker 1: a podcast about you overlooked and misunderstood. Find revisionist history 25 00:01:33,319 --> 00:01:37,840 Speaker 1: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get 26 00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:42,720 Speaker 1: your podcasts. Hello, this is Laverne Cox. I'm an actress, 27 00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:46,080 Speaker 1: producer and host of The Laverne Cox Shack. Do you 28 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:49,720 Speaker 1: like your tea with lemon or honey? History making Broadway 29 00:01:49,760 --> 00:01:53,240 Speaker 1: performer Alex Newell. When I sing the Holy Girl shows Up, 30 00:01:53,360 --> 00:01:55,600 Speaker 1: that's my ministry and I know that well about me. 31 00:01:56,000 --> 00:01:59,200 Speaker 1: That's the tea honey. Whoever it is, you can bet 32 00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:01,280 Speaker 1: we get into it, my guest and I we go 33 00:02:01,360 --> 00:02:05,000 Speaker 1: there every single time. I can't help it. Listen to 34 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:08,799 Speaker 1: The Laverne Cox Show on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast 35 00:02:09,040 --> 00:02:13,079 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcast. This is the Pike 36 00:02:13,160 --> 00:02:17,720 Speaker 1: to Massacre Return to Pike County Season two finale, What's Next? 37 00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:27,520 Speaker 1: I'm Courtney Armstrong, a television producer at Katie's Studios with 38 00:02:27,560 --> 00:02:31,639 Speaker 1: Stephanie Lydecker and Jeff Shane. For the finale of season two, 39 00:02:31,760 --> 00:02:34,560 Speaker 1: we wanted to devote some time to answering listener questions. 40 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:38,399 Speaker 1: This season. You've really helped lead us down some interesting 41 00:02:38,440 --> 00:02:41,639 Speaker 1: and unexpected roads. We culled through a bunch of submissions 42 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:43,720 Speaker 1: and picked out a few questions that we felt needed 43 00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:46,400 Speaker 1: to be discussed. We also invited a group of our 44 00:02:46,440 --> 00:02:50,840 Speaker 1: regular contributors to join reporters James Pilcher and Angette Levy, 45 00:02:50,960 --> 00:02:57,240 Speaker 1: as well as forensics expert Joseph Morgan. Welcome to the finale. 46 00:02:57,520 --> 00:03:00,919 Speaker 1: It's been quite a surprising season. It's been a shocking season, 47 00:03:00,960 --> 00:03:03,160 Speaker 1: I think, yeah. I mean we started with a crazy 48 00:03:03,200 --> 00:03:07,160 Speaker 1: turn of events, and now as we're learning more about 49 00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:10,360 Speaker 1: the accused and the victims themselves, there's never a moment 50 00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:13,080 Speaker 1: where I'm not surprised by this case and what happened. 51 00:03:13,080 --> 00:03:14,639 Speaker 1: And I think as we learned more and as these 52 00:03:14,639 --> 00:03:17,120 Speaker 1: trials start to happen, I think that's only going to continue. 53 00:03:17,639 --> 00:03:19,839 Speaker 1: That is the thing that I think I loved most 54 00:03:19,919 --> 00:03:23,280 Speaker 1: about this season is some of the unexpected turns that 55 00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:27,480 Speaker 1: we took. Really, this show sort of unfolded real time, obviously, 56 00:03:27,520 --> 00:03:30,600 Speaker 1: starting with the initial plea with Jake Wagner, but then 57 00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:34,359 Speaker 1: also we've done a couple of stories that were guided 58 00:03:34,360 --> 00:03:37,200 Speaker 1: by listeners that we dug into to really look at 59 00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:39,520 Speaker 1: the area. We really spent a lot of time this 60 00:03:39,560 --> 00:03:43,000 Speaker 1: week digging into questions that we've been following along the 61 00:03:43,040 --> 00:03:46,080 Speaker 1: way over the course of both seasons. The three top 62 00:03:46,160 --> 00:03:49,000 Speaker 1: things we got were, what are the details of what 63 00:03:49,040 --> 00:03:53,280 Speaker 1: happened in Alaska? Where is Jake's wife Elizabeth? And who 64 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:58,200 Speaker 1: is the informant? And those questions drive each of us 65 00:03:58,240 --> 00:04:02,160 Speaker 1: every day, and we do not know the answers, and 66 00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:07,480 Speaker 1: we and journalists and experts have been digging, and the 67 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:11,360 Speaker 1: answers thus far have been impossible to come by, but 68 00:04:11,840 --> 00:04:13,960 Speaker 1: that will not remain the case forever. We had a 69 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:17,120 Speaker 1: conversation today with two people that hopefully we can report 70 00:04:17,120 --> 00:04:20,640 Speaker 1: back on that is mind blowing. And you know, that's 71 00:04:20,680 --> 00:04:22,200 Speaker 1: a little bit of a piece of the puzzle. Right 72 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:25,880 Speaker 1: as we produce this podcast, as we produce anything, there 73 00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:28,160 Speaker 1: are certain conversations that happen on the record, There are 74 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:31,440 Speaker 1: certain that happened off the record. Obviously, legally speaking, we 75 00:04:31,480 --> 00:04:34,080 Speaker 1: have to have perfect releases in order for us to 76 00:04:34,120 --> 00:04:38,000 Speaker 1: air certain pieces of information, you know, gossip, conjecture, things 77 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:41,320 Speaker 1: that are a matter of non fact, are not usable 78 00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:45,159 Speaker 1: and because of the gag order at this exact second, 79 00:04:45,440 --> 00:04:49,400 Speaker 1: it's maddening because we get to speak to certain people 80 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:55,600 Speaker 1: and we're not able to share that information. Mike from Asheville, 81 00:04:55,640 --> 00:04:57,880 Speaker 1: North Carolina wrote, why did you guys do all these 82 00:04:57,920 --> 00:05:00,760 Speaker 1: break off episodes like the Michael Moran story and the 83 00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:04,840 Speaker 1: Curtis Francis story. Listeners wrote into us and gave us 84 00:05:04,839 --> 00:05:07,200 Speaker 1: a heads up to be looking into these stories deeper, 85 00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:10,120 Speaker 1: which was fascinating because truthfully, I don't know that we 86 00:05:10,160 --> 00:05:13,200 Speaker 1: would have gone down that path had Listeners not reached 87 00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:16,320 Speaker 1: out and alerted us to other stories that were happening 88 00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:18,920 Speaker 1: in the area, which really does speak to the totality 89 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:22,200 Speaker 1: of crime in a really specific pocket of the country. 90 00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:26,440 Speaker 1: They definitely spoke to this theme of injustice in the community, 91 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:28,640 Speaker 1: and I mean, these were happening in the rodent's backyard, 92 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:30,840 Speaker 1: and so to not mention them would feel like we 93 00:05:30,839 --> 00:05:33,920 Speaker 1: were not telling the complete story of this community. And 94 00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:36,479 Speaker 1: like the road in case, the Curtis Francis case is 95 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:41,279 Speaker 1: so complicated and so tragic, and the benefit of having 96 00:05:41,360 --> 00:05:44,240 Speaker 1: a season two is really being able to explore some 97 00:05:44,320 --> 00:05:46,560 Speaker 1: of these stories more. In the same way we were 98 00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:49,200 Speaker 1: able to expand on the Rodents story at the Gilly story. 99 00:05:49,279 --> 00:05:51,520 Speaker 1: We were able to do that with Curtis Francis, which 100 00:05:51,560 --> 00:05:54,080 Speaker 1: is an honor to be able to do that. And 101 00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:58,640 Speaker 1: so my question to you, James, so you report extensively 102 00:05:58,720 --> 00:06:01,960 Speaker 1: on Michael Moran, why was that story important to you? 103 00:06:02,320 --> 00:06:04,919 Speaker 1: And how, if it all, does it relate back to 104 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:08,400 Speaker 1: the road in case? As I said in the episode, 105 00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:10,960 Speaker 1: and I still feel this that I feel I owe 106 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:14,839 Speaker 1: these women the truth that you know, there's was a 107 00:06:14,839 --> 00:06:18,080 Speaker 1: part of me looking at it from my male, white 108 00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:22,880 Speaker 1: privileged perspective that this stuff didn't really happen. You know, 109 00:06:22,920 --> 00:06:25,400 Speaker 1: I had no idea, so I almost didn't believe it 110 00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:28,119 Speaker 1: at first, and so when I found out it was true, 111 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:30,960 Speaker 1: it became like almost a mission of mine to say, 112 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:33,039 Speaker 1: you know what, more people need to know about this 113 00:06:33,160 --> 00:06:36,200 Speaker 1: kind of thing. So that's for the Moran story specifically, 114 00:06:36,200 --> 00:06:40,760 Speaker 1: and sex trafficking. I've done subsequent stories about sex trafficking 115 00:06:40,760 --> 00:06:42,960 Speaker 1: in the numbers, state by state. So yeah, that's been 116 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:47,359 Speaker 1: a major focus of mine since I started reporting this story. 117 00:06:47,720 --> 00:06:50,119 Speaker 1: As a legal disclaimer, we should note that Michael Moran 118 00:06:50,200 --> 00:06:53,960 Speaker 1: has been arrested on charges including human trafficking and promoting prostitution. 119 00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:56,680 Speaker 1: He has pleaded not guilty to all charges and denied 120 00:06:56,720 --> 00:07:00,640 Speaker 1: any ties to sex trafficking. He's currently awaiting trial. How 121 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:03,039 Speaker 1: it relates back, you know, I wouldn't say that. You know, 122 00:07:03,080 --> 00:07:07,040 Speaker 1: there's not a direct correlation between the Wagner's and Michael 123 00:07:07,080 --> 00:07:10,320 Speaker 1: Moran or the Rodents and Michael Moran. I think it 124 00:07:10,400 --> 00:07:13,400 Speaker 1: just gets to this aspect of rural America that most 125 00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:16,480 Speaker 1: people don't see, and that law enforcement in that part 126 00:07:16,520 --> 00:07:18,440 Speaker 1: of the country and these parts of the country just 127 00:07:18,520 --> 00:07:25,280 Speaker 1: isn't equipped to handle these multifaceted, in depth, complicated investigations. 128 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:28,239 Speaker 1: And you guys covered it when you covered the Hopper 129 00:07:28,320 --> 00:07:33,000 Speaker 1: Road episode. I completely admire what Jodie Barr did with 130 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:38,160 Speaker 1: the Hopper Roads story and how even if they don't 131 00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:41,680 Speaker 1: get a conviction, at least people have an understanding of 132 00:07:41,720 --> 00:07:44,720 Speaker 1: what might have happened. Out to Jodie Barr for what 133 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:46,480 Speaker 1: he did in that story, because he really did. He 134 00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:50,360 Speaker 1: changed people's lives, you know exactly. You know. I saw 135 00:07:50,440 --> 00:07:53,360 Speaker 1: something today. I won't name the publication, but there's a 136 00:07:53,400 --> 00:07:57,280 Speaker 1: story out there saying that true crime is booming and whatever. 137 00:07:57,480 --> 00:08:00,600 Speaker 1: But it is nothing more than a love letter to 138 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:04,320 Speaker 1: law enforcement. And I want to write the author and said, 139 00:08:04,360 --> 00:08:07,560 Speaker 1: have you listened to any of this? Have you listened 140 00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:10,440 Speaker 1: to some of the stuff that you guys have done 141 00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:13,040 Speaker 1: and some other of my colleagues have done. No, this 142 00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:16,720 Speaker 1: is about unsolved. Why isn't this mystery solved? So I 143 00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:19,520 Speaker 1: completely You know, there are people who think, oh, true 144 00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:22,440 Speaker 1: crime is nothing more than making the cops look good. Well, no, 145 00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:25,640 Speaker 1: I completely disagree with that. It's as much about holding 146 00:08:25,640 --> 00:08:28,360 Speaker 1: the cops accountable as it is about telling the stories 147 00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:30,760 Speaker 1: of the victims. And by the way things go away 148 00:08:30,760 --> 00:08:33,400 Speaker 1: in the night, if nobody's talking about something, it just 149 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:36,000 Speaker 1: gets swept under the rug. And likely when you take 150 00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:37,720 Speaker 1: a closer look, which we get the benefit of doing 151 00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:40,760 Speaker 1: in a podcast of again the totality of the abuse 152 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:43,600 Speaker 1: of power, or a real look at how things are 153 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:46,720 Speaker 1: being covered and are they being covered enough? And are 154 00:08:46,760 --> 00:08:51,199 Speaker 1: these cases being highlighted enough? You know, oftentimes listen, investigators 155 00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:53,120 Speaker 1: are investigating as much as they can and as fast 156 00:08:53,160 --> 00:08:54,839 Speaker 1: as they can. We get the benefit of being a 157 00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:58,240 Speaker 1: little bit courtside and taking even a closer look, with 158 00:08:58,640 --> 00:09:01,360 Speaker 1: the benefit of tons of time in The hope really 159 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:04,319 Speaker 1: always is to hopefully move the needle to either move 160 00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:07,079 Speaker 1: a case forward and or to make sure it doesn't 161 00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:14,240 Speaker 1: happen again. Zach from Wilmington, Delaware asked have there been 162 00:09:14,280 --> 00:09:17,199 Speaker 1: efforts to reach back out to the Wagner family members 163 00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:20,960 Speaker 1: whatever happened to Deray, the Wagner relative from season one. 164 00:09:21,559 --> 00:09:24,800 Speaker 1: We've spoken to Deray numerous times since the hearing. She 165 00:09:24,920 --> 00:09:27,600 Speaker 1: was one of our first phone calls, and it is 166 00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:30,680 Speaker 1: obviously very raw for her. I mean, she spent, as 167 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:33,840 Speaker 1: listeners know, a lot of time proclaiming her family's innocence, 168 00:09:34,120 --> 00:09:37,280 Speaker 1: and Deray I think is heartbroken, and that is the 169 00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:40,160 Speaker 1: only way to put it. And she declined to participate 170 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:42,520 Speaker 1: this season because I think she is not sure how 171 00:09:42,559 --> 00:09:44,720 Speaker 1: to feel and how even if she was sure how 172 00:09:44,760 --> 00:09:47,120 Speaker 1: to feel, how to even explain that to the masses. 173 00:09:47,559 --> 00:09:51,440 Speaker 1: Could you imagine anything more horrifying? Of course, we defend 174 00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:53,560 Speaker 1: our families, and my understanding was I'm not sure if 175 00:09:53,600 --> 00:09:56,720 Speaker 1: Deray had directly spoken to Jake, but I know that 176 00:09:56,960 --> 00:09:59,679 Speaker 1: Jake was giving the impression to at least his grandmother 177 00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:02,680 Speaker 1: that he was innocent, and so they were shocked that 178 00:10:03,120 --> 00:10:05,480 Speaker 1: all of a sudden, he's in the courtroom saying the 179 00:10:05,480 --> 00:10:07,719 Speaker 1: opposite of that, So you know what I spoke to 180 00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:11,560 Speaker 1: Dry the day of the hearing. She was confused. She thought, 181 00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:13,280 Speaker 1: did someone put him up to this? Is he not 182 00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:15,360 Speaker 1: in the right frame of mind. She wasn't sure what 183 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:17,200 Speaker 1: was going on because this was not the person that 184 00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:21,800 Speaker 1: she had known for his entire life. So my question, Anginette, 185 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:24,679 Speaker 1: is what has your experience been reaching out to the 186 00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:28,000 Speaker 1: Wagner family members if you have, well, I've only really 187 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:32,560 Speaker 1: reached out to the lawyer's Billy Wagner's lawyer got back 188 00:10:32,559 --> 00:10:36,160 Speaker 1: to me very politely and just you know, said that 189 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:39,480 Speaker 1: anytime there's a crime with multiple defendants, you know that 190 00:10:39,520 --> 00:10:41,920 Speaker 1: one of them may or may not, So you don't 191 00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:44,800 Speaker 1: see that there's always that chance and they're going to 192 00:10:44,840 --> 00:10:47,439 Speaker 1: look at the case that type of thing. I didn't 193 00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:50,840 Speaker 1: really reach out to Frederica or anything like that. Anytime 194 00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:54,640 Speaker 1: I've done that, it's not been fruitful. So I just 195 00:10:54,679 --> 00:10:57,600 Speaker 1: didn't see any point I've reached after in the past, 196 00:10:57,840 --> 00:11:03,079 Speaker 1: and she doesn't say anything. Frederica Wagner had been very 197 00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:07,199 Speaker 1: vocal and speaking to the press, and as of today, 198 00:11:07,320 --> 00:11:10,160 Speaker 1: she has not said one thing publicly about her family 199 00:11:10,840 --> 00:11:15,040 Speaker 1: since Jake has played out. So I'm curious what's going 200 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:19,839 Speaker 1: on with her personally and also what the implications will 201 00:11:19,880 --> 00:11:24,400 Speaker 1: be in the upcoming trials. Same with Rita Joe Nukam, 202 00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:29,560 Speaker 1: Angela's mother. I'm personally fascinated by the grandmothers. Frederica seems 203 00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:33,600 Speaker 1: to be a complicated person. I mean, Frederica, as we know, 204 00:11:34,040 --> 00:11:36,840 Speaker 1: is a staple in the community in terms of her 205 00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:39,760 Speaker 1: presence with real estate and businesses. I just think about 206 00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:41,800 Speaker 1: the ripple effects of the crime and how it's going 207 00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:48,560 Speaker 1: to affect Pike County for years to come. Angie from 208 00:11:48,600 --> 00:11:52,080 Speaker 1: Carl's Bad New Mexico wants to know how covering this story, 209 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:55,960 Speaker 1: how has it affected you personally or professionally. I would say, 210 00:11:56,000 --> 00:11:58,800 Speaker 1: I think it makes me think about trust, certainly about 211 00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:02,040 Speaker 1: who you have in your life and the relationships you have, 212 00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:06,360 Speaker 1: Because whether it's Jake and Hannah Roden's relationship or it's 213 00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:09,160 Speaker 1: now Jake Wagner and the rest of his family, I 214 00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:11,800 Speaker 1: think it is a little bit be careful who you trust. Yeah, 215 00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:14,559 Speaker 1: this is one of those real cases of the boogeyman 216 00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:18,880 Speaker 1: is not out there, it's in your circle. And not 217 00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:21,680 Speaker 1: only in your circle. These were people that were really 218 00:12:21,720 --> 00:12:24,000 Speaker 1: close friends, the Wagners, and the Rodents. We know we're 219 00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:28,719 Speaker 1: extremely tight, way more than was earlier reported. So I 220 00:12:28,760 --> 00:12:32,560 Speaker 1: think for all of us, that's been the nauseating element here. 221 00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:34,480 Speaker 1: That's been the part that you can't kind of shake, 222 00:12:34,559 --> 00:12:36,640 Speaker 1: where you think you'd have a sixth sense about it, 223 00:12:36,800 --> 00:12:39,959 Speaker 1: or you would meet somebody and you would know they're 224 00:12:40,040 --> 00:12:42,200 Speaker 1: bad news, they're going to bring very bad things to 225 00:12:42,280 --> 00:12:45,079 Speaker 1: our family. Yet that wasn't the case at all. They 226 00:12:45,080 --> 00:12:48,720 Speaker 1: were at the same wedding, hugging and chummy and you know, 227 00:12:48,920 --> 00:12:53,040 Speaker 1: really shared beautiful times together. So at what point does 228 00:12:53,120 --> 00:12:56,960 Speaker 1: that tip over? I think has been a real fascination 229 00:12:57,000 --> 00:13:01,160 Speaker 1: of ours. And then I'd oppose the same thing to you, Joseph. 230 00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:04,360 Speaker 1: Let me just say in two thy sixteen, I've been 231 00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:08,440 Speaker 1: you know, kind of neck deep and covering crime for 232 00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:12,760 Speaker 1: a while now on a lot of networks and whatnot, 233 00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:15,000 Speaker 1: really big cases, and there there were a lot of 234 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:18,560 Speaker 1: big cases in twenty sixteen. But I have to confess 235 00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:23,760 Speaker 1: when the road In case hit, I was actually covering 236 00:13:23,840 --> 00:13:27,440 Speaker 1: it with HLN and Nancy Grace and we've gone on 237 00:13:27,520 --> 00:13:30,120 Speaker 1: to you know, to talk about it. Nancy and I 238 00:13:30,160 --> 00:13:34,080 Speaker 1: have extensively on air and particularly at that time, and 239 00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:36,200 Speaker 1: one of the things that struck me about it being 240 00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:40,160 Speaker 1: a guy that comes from these rural routes like I do, 241 00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:42,640 Speaker 1: you know, kind of country mouse comes a big city 242 00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:45,680 Speaker 1: kind of thing. I've never seen or heard of anything 243 00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:48,520 Speaker 1: like that in my entire life. I was just amazed. 244 00:13:48,559 --> 00:13:51,880 Speaker 1: And then when you go out to those locations, you 245 00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:54,600 Speaker 1: get out and you look at this property and I 246 00:13:54,640 --> 00:13:58,599 Speaker 1: don't know the word, I'd say emptiness, but there's a 247 00:13:59,280 --> 00:14:03,480 Speaker 1: vacancy to it. And you know that you get out 248 00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:06,600 Speaker 1: there and you see what may have been there and 249 00:14:06,640 --> 00:14:10,760 Speaker 1: it's no longer there Isn't that really really something that 250 00:14:10,920 --> 00:14:13,240 Speaker 1: kind of resonates with you, you know how how it 251 00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:16,960 Speaker 1: leaves this this huge scar throughout that community. You know, 252 00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:21,400 Speaker 1: this this vacancy. But yet it's it's haunted. It's haunted. 253 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:24,080 Speaker 1: And you know, I'm not saying that in a sense of, 254 00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:26,440 Speaker 1: you know, some kind of ghost tale or something. I'm 255 00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:30,240 Speaker 1: saying it's a haunted place in this sense. This is 256 00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:33,480 Speaker 1: a kind of event that years from now, kids are 257 00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:36,440 Speaker 1: going to be sitting around campfires, you know, fifty years 258 00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:38,720 Speaker 1: from now, and they're going to be saying, hey, you 259 00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:41,280 Speaker 1: want to hear a ghost story. You want to hear 260 00:14:41,520 --> 00:14:44,280 Speaker 1: about the worst thing that ever happened. And so right 261 00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:46,560 Speaker 1: now it's a very urgent thing. We're waiting on trials 262 00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:48,840 Speaker 1: and all that sort of thing. But then it leaps 263 00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:52,000 Speaker 1: over and into into the mythology of a place, and 264 00:14:52,040 --> 00:14:54,720 Speaker 1: that's going to happen. That will happen, and this will 265 00:14:54,760 --> 00:15:02,320 Speaker 1: be something that will be rememberable. We're going to take 266 00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:10,360 Speaker 1: a quick break here. We'll be back in a moment. Oh. 267 00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:13,400 Speaker 1: I'm Carol Fisher, and I'm hosting a podcast called The 268 00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:16,880 Speaker 1: Girl Friends. Back in the nineteen nineties in Las Vegas, 269 00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:21,600 Speaker 1: a few of us dated the most eligible bachelor in town, Bob. 270 00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:27,920 Speaker 1: He spoke several languages, he did medical missionary work, and 271 00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:32,400 Speaker 1: he was Jewish. He was perfect on paper, but he wasn't. 272 00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:36,360 Speaker 1: He really wasn't. He shouted and to the point she 273 00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:41,560 Speaker 1: went unconscious. Bob could lie about anything, but only takes 274 00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:45,800 Speaker 1: the one time when somebody ends up dead. Unfortunately for Bob, 275 00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:49,040 Speaker 1: us girlfriends know how to fight back. I wanted him 276 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:51,760 Speaker 1: to pay for his crime. He needed to be put 277 00:15:51,760 --> 00:15:53,880 Speaker 1: to justice. I'll be honest with you. If I saw 278 00:15:53,920 --> 00:15:55,840 Speaker 1: him right now, I'd spit on him. I would call 279 00:15:55,920 --> 00:15:58,760 Speaker 1: him and I would say, I know you killed my sister. 280 00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:01,880 Speaker 1: I will always is hound you and haunt you. You 281 00:16:01,920 --> 00:16:06,400 Speaker 1: can listen to the girlfriends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, 282 00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:11,560 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. LA's reputation not so great. 283 00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:15,400 Speaker 1: People from LA will have a very superficial, nice conversation 284 00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:17,440 Speaker 1: with you, and they won't lift a finger to help 285 00:16:17,480 --> 00:16:22,120 Speaker 1: you to people represent vapidity, stops that like oh the 286 00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:26,000 Speaker 1: best calls like oh shoot leave. As someone born and 287 00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:28,640 Speaker 1: raised here, I can tell you there's much more to 288 00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:32,840 Speaker 1: LA than this. My name is James Kim, and I'm 289 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:36,000 Speaker 1: the creator of a new anthology fiction podcast, call You 290 00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:40,720 Speaker 1: Feeling This. It's ten different stories about La and the 291 00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:45,240 Speaker 1: real people who make up this city. What did you 292 00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:48,000 Speaker 1: listen to my message? We're just trying to get bought. 293 00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:51,800 Speaker 1: I think I was just freaking out because I'm scared 294 00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:55,040 Speaker 1: by connecting with each other. I'm going to be a father. 295 00:16:55,400 --> 00:17:00,720 Speaker 1: Ye Are you Feeling This? A fiction pod cast mixtape 296 00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:05,320 Speaker 1: about love. Listen to it on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, 297 00:17:05,680 --> 00:17:10,680 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcast. She's a Hollywood Western. 298 00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:14,959 Speaker 1: She's Jack Harrouac, but in a nap dress with braids. 299 00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:20,680 Speaker 1: She is one of the most important American children's authors 300 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:24,760 Speaker 1: of the twentieth century. She's the basis for its television show, 301 00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:28,720 Speaker 1: still watched around the world. Somebody somewhere is watching A 302 00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:32,240 Speaker 1: Little as the Birth. She's been called a hero, a racist, 303 00:17:32,560 --> 00:17:36,399 Speaker 1: a feminist, and a propagandist. I think the harm is 304 00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:39,320 Speaker 1: too great because it's just one more thing that Native 305 00:17:39,359 --> 00:17:44,760 Speaker 1: children have to endure. She is Laura Ingles Wilder, author 306 00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:48,000 Speaker 1: of the book series Little House on the Prairie. As 307 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:51,320 Speaker 1: a kid, I idolized Laura, and last summer I went 308 00:17:51,359 --> 00:17:54,280 Speaker 1: on the road in search of the real Laura. We're 309 00:17:54,320 --> 00:17:59,960 Speaker 1: literally on the prairie. What I found was a complicated 310 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:05,400 Speaker 1: person alongside the complicated country she represents. I'm Glennis McNicol 311 00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:10,920 Speaker 1: in This is Wilder. Listen to Wilder on the iHeartRadio app, 312 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:16,119 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, and 313 00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:19,160 Speaker 1: welcome to Bad Manners. This is the podcast that takes 314 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:22,560 Speaker 1: you inside Britain's stately homes and tells all the tales 315 00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:26,280 Speaker 1: the guide books don't. My name is Tom Horton and 316 00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:30,240 Speaker 1: I'll be your host. Britain is riddled with the big houses, 317 00:18:30,320 --> 00:18:34,959 Speaker 1: from crumbling castles, massive mansions and stately piles. Bigger than 318 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:37,960 Speaker 1: Buckingham Palace. As a comedian, I'm not really bothered about 319 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:40,200 Speaker 1: the facts and figures. I just want the juicy stuff. 320 00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:42,480 Speaker 1: So I'm on a mission to find out the frightening, 321 00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:46,880 Speaker 1: filthy and downright jaw dropping stories of these stately homes 322 00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:51,440 Speaker 1: and the people in them. This podcast ventures deep inside 323 00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:55,399 Speaker 1: some of Britain's most incredible and outrageous buildings to spill 324 00:18:55,480 --> 00:19:00,439 Speaker 1: the tea on the scandalous, scary, shocking, and hilarious tales. 325 00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:03,800 Speaker 1: So if you want to get historically horrid, royally raucous 326 00:19:04,080 --> 00:19:07,680 Speaker 1: and down some dirty look though that, listen to Bad 327 00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:11,720 Speaker 1: Manners on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you 328 00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:25,119 Speaker 1: get your podcasts. Anginette. Has covering this case had an 329 00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:28,400 Speaker 1: impact on any way you report now or has it 330 00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:32,159 Speaker 1: affected you personally or professionally. I think that's hard to answer. 331 00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:35,359 Speaker 1: I think you know, some stories change the way you 332 00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:38,359 Speaker 1: report or make you look at things differently. You know. 333 00:19:38,359 --> 00:19:41,080 Speaker 1: I kind of approached this like I approached any story. 334 00:19:41,119 --> 00:19:43,520 Speaker 1: I just wanted to know the truth and figure out 335 00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:46,520 Speaker 1: what happened and try to help you know, if we 336 00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:50,920 Speaker 1: could bring some light to what happened. So, I mean, 337 00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:54,080 Speaker 1: it was very sad to me. I mean, I it 338 00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:56,480 Speaker 1: was just it's just awful when you would watch the 339 00:19:56,520 --> 00:19:59,119 Speaker 1: family and go individuals and stuff like that, and you 340 00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:01,360 Speaker 1: would see what they we're going through. And there were 341 00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:03,800 Speaker 1: sometimes where I felt like the family wasn't treated very 342 00:20:03,840 --> 00:20:07,840 Speaker 1: well by some media. You know. I feel like I 343 00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:10,919 Speaker 1: tried to always treat them, the family, the Roden family, 344 00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:13,800 Speaker 1: with kindness, as I do everybody on a story with 345 00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:16,560 Speaker 1: unless they're you know, like a politician and then you 346 00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:20,120 Speaker 1: chase them these straight or whatever. But I just feel 347 00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:22,800 Speaker 1: like it maybe gave me a greater appreciation for the 348 00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:26,440 Speaker 1: loss that people really suffer, just because of the children 349 00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:29,560 Speaker 1: involved in this, of course, but just you know, just 350 00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:32,719 Speaker 1: the senseless This was like truly you hear people say, 351 00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:35,520 Speaker 1: well it was senseless, Well, and all killings are pretty 352 00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:39,240 Speaker 1: much senseless, but this was really really on another level, 353 00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:43,679 Speaker 1: and so I think the humanity just talking to Leonard 354 00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:47,199 Speaker 1: Manly and seeing the pain that it brought him and 355 00:20:47,280 --> 00:20:51,199 Speaker 1: his family, and seeing Geneva Roden, and you could just 356 00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:54,080 Speaker 1: see the pain on her face when she would come 357 00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:56,880 Speaker 1: to court, just dutifully coming to court. You know, there's 358 00:20:56,920 --> 00:20:59,800 Speaker 1: no elevator out there at the Pike County courthouse, she 359 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:02,680 Speaker 1: have to like walk up the stairs each time with 360 00:21:02,680 --> 00:21:05,040 Speaker 1: her cane, and she has a bad foot, And in 361 00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:08,080 Speaker 1: telling this story, just really so try to focus the 362 00:21:08,119 --> 00:21:10,480 Speaker 1: best you can on the loss, or at least bring 363 00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:13,560 Speaker 1: that through in the storytelling. I feel like I just 364 00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:16,240 Speaker 1: I learned something from every story I cover and it 365 00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:19,639 Speaker 1: probably changes me, you know in some ways, you know, 366 00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:25,600 Speaker 1: you learn and e Bold, I know a couple of 367 00:21:25,600 --> 00:21:28,880 Speaker 1: you are parents, and it sounds so cliche, but it's 368 00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:30,520 Speaker 1: so true, Like even you know, when I have my 369 00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:34,400 Speaker 1: mind in this case particularly, it really makes you grateful 370 00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:37,160 Speaker 1: for what you have, knowing what can be lost like that. 371 00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:39,879 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I would agree with you one hundred percent 372 00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:42,639 Speaker 1: on that. And I feel for those kids. Obviously I 373 00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:45,040 Speaker 1: don't know any of these children, but just the thought 374 00:21:45,119 --> 00:21:49,080 Speaker 1: of children growing up not knowing their parents now because 375 00:21:49,119 --> 00:21:52,080 Speaker 1: of this that's going to happen. I try to keep 376 00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:54,439 Speaker 1: my emotions separate, but it's hard. You know, sometimes you 377 00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:57,199 Speaker 1: come home and you look at your own children and 378 00:21:57,480 --> 00:22:00,520 Speaker 1: you just think, God, what would happen if my child 379 00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:03,080 Speaker 1: was less because of that? And you try to really 380 00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:06,480 Speaker 1: put yourself in that plenty, and it's just I can't 381 00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:09,320 Speaker 1: even imagine. I just hope this kid are going to 382 00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:13,320 Speaker 1: grow up and be okay. You know, we get up 383 00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:15,600 Speaker 1: in the morning every day and think about people who 384 00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:19,000 Speaker 1: we've never met, and think about families who we never 385 00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:21,719 Speaker 1: will outside of the interviews that we have the benefit 386 00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:24,159 Speaker 1: of doing. And I can speak for all of us 387 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:26,800 Speaker 1: to say, if you speak to a person, whether it's 388 00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:29,040 Speaker 1: on a phone or on a zoom or eye to 389 00:22:29,119 --> 00:22:32,080 Speaker 1: eye in the same room, and their entire family has 390 00:22:32,119 --> 00:22:35,280 Speaker 1: been slaughtered, and they can sit before us and tell 391 00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:38,199 Speaker 1: their tale and have the wherewithal and the composure to 392 00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:40,720 Speaker 1: be able to push on in their world. Certainly we 393 00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:42,840 Speaker 1: can tell their stories, and we also can push on 394 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:46,320 Speaker 1: in our world. And I think that's very inspiring in 395 00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:50,959 Speaker 1: a way. We've been wildly inspired by this case in 396 00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:53,440 Speaker 1: ways I can quite describe. The Rodent family has become 397 00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:59,000 Speaker 1: a piece of our DNA. Do we know for sure 398 00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:02,160 Speaker 1: George's trial will be next and do we know what 399 00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:05,120 Speaker 1: the order is yet? All we know is that George's 400 00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:07,840 Speaker 1: trial is the only one who's been scheduled. They might 401 00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:11,680 Speaker 1: schedule Mom and Dad earlier than that. They could still 402 00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:13,919 Speaker 1: do that. They very well could still do that, But 403 00:23:14,440 --> 00:23:16,840 Speaker 1: as of right now, the only one we know of 404 00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:21,479 Speaker 1: is next spring, we're going to have a trial unless 405 00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:24,520 Speaker 1: there's a plea deal. These prosecutors have been dealing with 406 00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:28,960 Speaker 1: this case for years, so I assume they've got some 407 00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:32,800 Speaker 1: type of game plan, or they think they know who 408 00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:36,479 Speaker 1: could go next, or who they want to potentially offer 409 00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:39,680 Speaker 1: something too next. I mean, I'm sure they have a plan. 410 00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:42,040 Speaker 1: I don't know that they have a plan. I'm just 411 00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:45,160 Speaker 1: kind of surmising, you know, I'm sure they've thought about 412 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:48,399 Speaker 1: this over the years. I think it's so compelling to 413 00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:53,119 Speaker 1: better understand how one trial will influence the other. It 414 00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:58,000 Speaker 1: is unusual to have four now trials of family members 415 00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:01,680 Speaker 1: back to back, so a man in one trial of 416 00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:04,879 Speaker 1: course impacts the other, and the bombs that come along 417 00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:09,359 Speaker 1: with that, particularly Jake Wadner facing off for the first time, 418 00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:13,120 Speaker 1: as now stipulated in his plea agreement, that he will 419 00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:16,560 Speaker 1: testify against his own mother, his own brother, his own father, 420 00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:20,840 Speaker 1: is mind blowing. There's no way this can play out 421 00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:23,679 Speaker 1: in any universe that is not shocking. If they are 422 00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:26,520 Speaker 1: turning on each other, that is a piece of the 423 00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:29,480 Speaker 1: equation that we really never thought would happen until Jake 424 00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:32,600 Speaker 1: appeared at that hearing. How do you throw your son 425 00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:35,800 Speaker 1: under the bus, And how does your son throw his 426 00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:40,159 Speaker 1: own mother under the legal bus. That is a legal mess, 427 00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:42,800 Speaker 1: and I'm so curious to see how it plays out. 428 00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:51,720 Speaker 1: Let's stop here for another quick break. We'll be back 429 00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:59,439 Speaker 1: in a moment. Oh. I'm Carol Fisher, and I'm hosting 430 00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:02,119 Speaker 1: a podcast ask called The girl Friends. Back in the 431 00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:05,399 Speaker 1: nineteen nineties in Las Vegas, a few of us dated 432 00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:11,520 Speaker 1: the most eligible bachelor in town, Bob. He spoke several languages, 433 00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:16,760 Speaker 1: he did medical missionary work, and he was Jewish. He 434 00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:21,359 Speaker 1: was perfect on paper, but he wasn't. He really wasn't. 435 00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:25,560 Speaker 1: He shouted into the point that she went unconscious. Bob 436 00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:29,640 Speaker 1: could lie about anything, but only takes the one time 437 00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:34,040 Speaker 1: when somebody ends up dead. Unfortunately for Bob, us girlfriends 438 00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:36,639 Speaker 1: know how to fight back. I wanted him to pay 439 00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:39,680 Speaker 1: for his crime. He needed to be put to justice. 440 00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:41,520 Speaker 1: I'll be honest with you. If I saw him right now, 441 00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:43,840 Speaker 1: I'd spit on him. I would call him and I 442 00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:46,680 Speaker 1: would say, I know you killed my sister. I will 443 00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:49,720 Speaker 1: always hound you and haunt you. You can listen to 444 00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:54,360 Speaker 1: The Girlfriends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever 445 00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:59,560 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. Ella's reputation not so great. People 446 00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:02,560 Speaker 1: from out I will have a very superficial, nice conversation 447 00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:04,720 Speaker 1: with you, and I won't lift a finger to help you. 448 00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:09,600 Speaker 1: To La, people represent vapidity, stops that like oh, the best, 449 00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:13,760 Speaker 1: calls like ah Shoot. As someone born and raised here, 450 00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:16,520 Speaker 1: I can tell you there's much more to La than this. 451 00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:20,600 Speaker 1: My name is James Kim and I'm the creator of 452 00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:25,880 Speaker 1: a new anthology fiction podcast called You Feeling This. It's 453 00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:28,960 Speaker 1: ten different stories about La and the real people who 454 00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:33,560 Speaker 1: make up this city. What did you listen to my message? 455 00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:36,040 Speaker 1: Who were just trying to get bought? I think I 456 00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:40,240 Speaker 1: was just freaking out because I'm scared by connecting with 457 00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:45,359 Speaker 1: each other. I'm going to be a father. Are You 458 00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:49,720 Speaker 1: Feeling This? A fiction podcast mixtape about love. Listen to 459 00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:53,520 Speaker 1: it on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you 460 00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:58,800 Speaker 1: get your podcast. Hello and welcome to Bad Manners. This 461 00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:01,679 Speaker 1: is the podcast that takes you inside Britain's stately homes 462 00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:05,880 Speaker 1: and tells all the tales the guide books don't. My 463 00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:08,880 Speaker 1: name is Tom Burton and I'll be your host. Britain 464 00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:13,400 Speaker 1: is riddled with the big houses, from crumbling castles, massive 465 00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:17,840 Speaker 1: mansions and stately piles bigger than Buckingham Palace. As a comedian, 466 00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:19,800 Speaker 1: I'm not really bothered about the facts and figures. I 467 00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:21,960 Speaker 1: just want the juicy stuff. So I'm on a mission 468 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:25,800 Speaker 1: to find out the frightening, filthy and downright jaw dropping 469 00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:29,720 Speaker 1: stories of these stately homes and the people in them. 470 00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:33,920 Speaker 1: This podcast ventures deep inside some of Britain's most incredible 471 00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:39,320 Speaker 1: and outrageous buildings to spill the tea on the scandalous, scary, shocking, 472 00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:43,359 Speaker 1: and hilarious tales. So if you want to get historically horrid, 473 00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:48,159 Speaker 1: Royally raucus and Downton dirty, look no further. Listen to 474 00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:52,399 Speaker 1: Bad Manners on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 475 00:27:52,440 --> 00:28:05,840 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. Colleen from Aspen, Colorado asked, what 476 00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:07,879 Speaker 1: do you think is going to be the end result 477 00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:09,800 Speaker 1: of the case when all is said and done? Are 478 00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:12,760 Speaker 1: there going to be any more surprises? I would predict 479 00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:15,200 Speaker 1: at this point they're all found guilty, and I think 480 00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:16,800 Speaker 1: there's probably no plea deal and we're going to see 481 00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:19,960 Speaker 1: these trials happen one after the other, starting with George. 482 00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:23,040 Speaker 1: I think it'll be starting with Angela Wagner and George 483 00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:27,879 Speaker 1: will follow and Angela's trial will set the stage for 484 00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:32,679 Speaker 1: the remaining two. If Jake is lying, Is that a 485 00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:36,119 Speaker 1: possibility to anybody that Jake is lying? I don't know. 486 00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:38,480 Speaker 1: I mean, if what they said is true over that 487 00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:41,840 Speaker 1: ten to eighteen hour confession, if that's indeed you know 488 00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:44,640 Speaker 1: the story, and he said it was all true, and 489 00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:48,080 Speaker 1: he led them the murder weapons and the vehicle used, 490 00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:52,720 Speaker 1: that's some pretty compelling evidence. So you know, there may 491 00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:55,600 Speaker 1: be another domino or two to fall, and maybe there 492 00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:59,440 Speaker 1: will be somebody that fix it out and says, now 493 00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:00,960 Speaker 1: I'm going to roll the dice, can go to trial. 494 00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:03,800 Speaker 1: I said it before they're either, you know, with Jake's deal, 495 00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:07,560 Speaker 1: that's parent leaves off the table. So you either plead 496 00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:10,720 Speaker 1: guilty and get life in prison, or you roll the 497 00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:13,160 Speaker 1: dice and get convicted and get life in prison, or 498 00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:15,600 Speaker 1: you roll the dice and get a hung jury. So 499 00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:19,600 Speaker 1: but kind of how I look at it, James, will 500 00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:23,160 Speaker 1: there be any more surprises? Well, I think it depends 501 00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:27,600 Speaker 1: on your definition of surprise. Jake pleading guilty a few 502 00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:31,720 Speaker 1: months ago that was a surprise. At this point with 503 00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:35,640 Speaker 1: that on the table, I don't think anything would be surprising. 504 00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:41,480 Speaker 1: I don't necessarily think someone deciding to stick it out 505 00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:44,360 Speaker 1: to say yeah, I'm going to go to trial would 506 00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:49,600 Speaker 1: be surprising, or pleading out would be surprising. I think 507 00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:55,440 Speaker 1: it's going to depend on how hard and which we 508 00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:59,080 Speaker 1: link the prosecutors decide to push on where they see 509 00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:01,960 Speaker 1: the weak links, if they see a week link, I mean, 510 00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:04,680 Speaker 1: they're all being kept in separate prisons, and they're all 511 00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:09,080 Speaker 1: being kept with separate counsel. Now those counsel can talk 512 00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:13,440 Speaker 1: to each other, but the Wagoners can't. So I don't 513 00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:17,880 Speaker 1: know at this point. Nothing surprised would surprised me in 514 00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:21,240 Speaker 1: this case anymore apart from they went to trial and 515 00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:26,480 Speaker 1: got a not guilty verdict, that would be a shocker. 516 00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:41,200 Speaker 1: A really really sincere thanks for your time, information, passion, 517 00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:45,160 Speaker 1: all of it really on behalf of Katie Studios. Just 518 00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:48,440 Speaker 1: thank you to the listeners. You know, we hit number 519 00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:52,560 Speaker 1: one in all categories because people kept tuning in and 520 00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:54,640 Speaker 1: as we talked about, led us in the right direction 521 00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:57,560 Speaker 1: in terms of other things to be discussing and unpacking. 522 00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:07,400 Speaker 1: So thank you. As we bring season two to a close, 523 00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:10,400 Speaker 1: one piece of the puzzle has been solved. Jake Wagner 524 00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:13,120 Speaker 1: changed his leaded guilty and said he was responsible for 525 00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:16,200 Speaker 1: five of the eight Rodent family member deaths. What plead 526 00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:22,800 Speaker 1: you wished to hit her? In JELF seven Your Heart. 527 00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:27,160 Speaker 1: Jake Wagner faces life behind bars and has disclosed details 528 00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:29,600 Speaker 1: of the plot to kill the Rodent family to authorities. 529 00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:32,360 Speaker 1: He told us letters to discover some evidence that had 530 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:35,320 Speaker 1: yet to be recovered, specifically the weapons that were used 531 00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:38,480 Speaker 1: in these offenses. He's also implicated his family and the 532 00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:42,200 Speaker 1: Gruesome murders. Billy Wagner, Angela Wagner, and George Wagner the 533 00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:46,080 Speaker 1: Fourth all still face charges, including aggravated murder. Jake Wagner 534 00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:49,960 Speaker 1: has actually agreed to testify against his mother, his father, 535 00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:54,720 Speaker 1: and his older brother, while Angela, Billy, and George Wagner 536 00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:58,880 Speaker 1: continue to maintain their innocence. Questions remain. Angela Wagner was 537 00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:01,800 Speaker 1: a suspected master mind if the conspiracy to kill eight 538 00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:04,600 Speaker 1: members of the Rodent and Gillie family. Prosecutors say the 539 00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:08,160 Speaker 1: Wagners lived an insular life focused on control of children 540 00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:12,200 Speaker 1: and the young women who entered their lives. But with 541 00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:15,120 Speaker 1: judgment day for Accu's brother, George Wagner the Fourth just 542 00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:17,800 Speaker 1: around the corner, George Wagner's trial date has been said 543 00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:20,720 Speaker 1: for April fourth, twenty two. What will happen in the 544 00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:26,440 Speaker 1: meantime is anyone's guests. Will there be another plea deal? 545 00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:29,400 Speaker 1: It'll be interesting to see where this case goes from here. 546 00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:32,640 Speaker 1: Now they have someone who is cooperating, they have someone 547 00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:36,200 Speaker 1: who can give them specific evidence. What exactly is Jake 548 00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:37,800 Speaker 1: going to say in the stand. It's going to be 549 00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:41,840 Speaker 1: interesting to watch what happens with a few Could grandmother 550 00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:44,720 Speaker 1: Rita Nucam make an appearance on the witness stand. Nucom 551 00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:48,760 Speaker 1: is a notary, and prosecutors say she forged guardianship documents 552 00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:51,760 Speaker 1: three weeks before the Rodents were murdered. The fine details 553 00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:54,240 Speaker 1: of this plea agreement are under sealed with the court, 554 00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:57,080 Speaker 1: so it's still a question about whether or not Newcome 555 00:32:57,120 --> 00:33:00,800 Speaker 1: will be required to testify at the trials, or will 556 00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:03,480 Speaker 1: grandmother freder Rico Wagner end up back in court. The 557 00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:06,760 Speaker 1: seventy seven year old Wagner faced two felony charges, obstructing 558 00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:10,560 Speaker 1: justice and perjury. I've never lied about anything. I was innocent. 559 00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:13,320 Speaker 1: They had no evidence against me. She can be charged 560 00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:17,480 Speaker 1: again in this case later. Perhaps most importantly, will the victims, 561 00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:20,720 Speaker 1: families finally see closure in the case. Our family will 562 00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:24,640 Speaker 1: never stop trying to bring whoever did this to justice. 563 00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:27,760 Speaker 1: One thing is for sure, There's much more on the 564 00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:30,720 Speaker 1: horizon in this case just keeps on coming. I still 565 00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:32,600 Speaker 1: wonder if there was much more to this that we 566 00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:35,440 Speaker 1: don't know, and what would drive someone to do what 567 00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:41,760 Speaker 1: happened here. There's still to me a whole lot of 568 00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:54,920 Speaker 1: un answer questions here. More on that next season, but 569 00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:57,040 Speaker 1: check in next week when we'll be bringing you a 570 00:33:57,080 --> 00:34:02,240 Speaker 1: special bonus episode before the Break. For more information on 571 00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:05,400 Speaker 1: the case and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram at 572 00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:09,600 Speaker 1: Katie Underscore Studios. The Piked and Massacre Returned to Pike 573 00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:13,640 Speaker 1: County is executive produced by Stephanie Lydecker and me Courtney Armstrong. 574 00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:17,920 Speaker 1: Editing and sound designed by executive producer Jared Aston. Additional 575 00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:21,640 Speaker 1: producing by Jeff Shane, Andrew Becker and Chris Graves. The 576 00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:24,360 Speaker 1: Piked and Massacre Returned to Pike County is a production 577 00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:28,440 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio and Katie Studios. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, 578 00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:32,160 Speaker 1: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen 579 00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:38,240 Speaker 1: to your favorite shows. I'm Carol Fisher and I'm hosting 580 00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:42,160 Speaker 1: a podcast called The Girlfriends. It's Las Vegas, it's the 581 00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:45,720 Speaker 1: nineteen nineties, and it is time to find a husband. 582 00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:49,680 Speaker 1: There were four Jewish doctors who were felt to be 583 00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:55,120 Speaker 1: eligible bachelors. One of them was Bob Baron bat On paper. 584 00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:59,480 Speaker 1: He was perfect, but in reality, this guy's a wacko. 585 00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:03,759 Speaker 1: Shouted to the point she went unconscious. I would call 586 00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:06,400 Speaker 1: him and I would say, I know you killed my sister. 587 00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:10,080 Speaker 1: You can listen to The girl Friends on the iHeartRadio app, 588 00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:14,200 Speaker 1: Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, Hello, 589 00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:18,320 Speaker 1: maltoin Globo. Here. This year on Revisionist History, we're tackling 590 00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:22,600 Speaker 1: more ambitious stories than ever, from how to fix education 591 00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:26,400 Speaker 1: to what Americans get completely wrong about guns. We're debating 592 00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:30,280 Speaker 1: with teenagers, handing out awards and hunting for the perfect 593 00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:34,920 Speaker 1: medical raccoon. This is, after all, a podcast about you 594 00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:39,520 Speaker 1: overlooked and missunderstood. Find Revisionist History on the iHeartRadio app, 595 00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:45,480 Speaker 1: Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello. This 596 00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:49,040 Speaker 1: is Laverne Cox. I'm an actress, producer and host of 597 00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:51,680 Speaker 1: The Laverne Cox Shack. Do you like your tea with 598 00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:56,640 Speaker 1: women or Honey? History? Making Broadway performer Alex Newell when 599 00:35:56,680 --> 00:35:59,279 Speaker 1: asking the Holy Girl shows up, that's my ministry and 600 00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:02,080 Speaker 1: I know that all about me. That's the g honey, 601 00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:04,840 Speaker 1: whoever it is, you can bet we get into it. 602 00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:08,080 Speaker 1: My guest tonight, we go there every single time. I 603 00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:11,160 Speaker 1: can't help it. Listen to the Verne Cox Show on 604 00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:15,680 Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. 605 00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:18,239 Speaker 1: I want to learn how to be a master of 606 00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:21,480 Speaker 1: business without going back to school. This summer, the Planet 607 00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:25,680 Speaker 1: Money podcast is offering its very own MBA. Enjoy classic 608 00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:28,719 Speaker 1: Planet Money stories about the fundamentals of business, and here 609 00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:31,600 Speaker 1: a fancy pants business school professor break down the concepts. 610 00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:33,840 Speaker 1: Whether you want to start your own side hustle or 611 00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:36,680 Speaker 1: just survive in the job you have a little business 612 00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:39,920 Speaker 1: know how will make you richer at least a knowledge. 613 00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:43,000 Speaker 1: Every Wednesday till Labor Day, listen to Planet Money from 614 00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:46,680 Speaker 1: NPR on the iHeartRadio app, or wherever you get your podcasts.