WEBVTT - Trump’s H-1B Visa Fee Dashes Indian Workers’ American Dreams

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<v Speaker 1>Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news.

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<v Speaker 2>Ayush is an IT consultant in his early thirties from India.

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<v Speaker 2>He lives in the US with his wife, and he

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<v Speaker 2>told Bloomberg Sun called Fatial that they like it there.

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<v Speaker 3>He and his wife have been in the US for

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<v Speaker 3>very many years. They work for NIGHTI Company, and they

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<v Speaker 3>love working for that company. The environment in that company

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<v Speaker 3>is great.

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<v Speaker 2>Last month, Ayusch was in India visiting family, but the

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<v Speaker 2>day before he was due to return to the US,

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<v Speaker 2>he woke up to a bunch of missed calls and

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<v Speaker 2>frantic text messages from.

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<v Speaker 3>Friends, friends saying where are you come back? Immediately? Did

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<v Speaker 3>you see the news?

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<v Speaker 2>Ayusch and his wife are recipients of one of the

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<v Speaker 2>most coveted visas in the world, the H one B

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<v Speaker 2>that allows highly skilled foreign nationals to live and work

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<v Speaker 2>in the United States, and on that morning, the news

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<v Speaker 2>was about a major overhaul of that program. The President

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<v Speaker 2>is said to add a new one hundred thousand dollars

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<v Speaker 2>fee for H ONEB visas in the latest one hundred

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<v Speaker 2>thousand dollars, more than ten times what the visa had

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<v Speaker 2>cost in the past. The news sent hundreds of thousands

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<v Speaker 2>of H one B visa holders worldwide into a spiral.

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<v Speaker 2>It wasn't clear who the new fee applied to or

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<v Speaker 2>whether the current visa holders like Ayush would be charged

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<v Speaker 2>upon re entering the US.

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<v Speaker 3>If you know anyone who's on it one be in

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<v Speaker 3>India right now, tell them to border the flat as

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<v Speaker 3>soon as possible.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm so mad and frustrated right now. If you're currently

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<v Speaker 1>in US with the H one B visa working as

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<v Speaker 1>a pointer, do not leave this country.

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<v Speaker 2>President Donald Trump's announcement of the new fees was especially

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<v Speaker 2>unsettling for the Indian community. That's because Indians make up

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<v Speaker 2>roughly seventy percent of H one B holders. Ayush didn't

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<v Speaker 2>want to speak to us on tape out of fear

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<v Speaker 2>that it would jeopardize his career, but he's agreed to

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<v Speaker 2>let Bloomberg sunkap Fartiel tell his story instead.

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<v Speaker 3>He told me that he was in the line for

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<v Speaker 3>immigration just a few minutes before the deadline kicked in

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<v Speaker 3>on September twenty first. Thankfully, he is admitted in.

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<v Speaker 2>For decades, the H ONEB program was a way to

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<v Speaker 2>address labor shortages in the US. The vast majority of

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<v Speaker 2>H ONEB holders work in the tech sector for the

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<v Speaker 2>likes of Meta Inphasis and Google's parent company Alphabet.

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<v Speaker 3>A lot of very famous people in the US have

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<v Speaker 3>come to the US, and H one B Zylon Musk

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<v Speaker 3>being one of them, the current Google CEO, Alphabet CEO

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<v Speaker 3>Sunda Pichai.

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<v Speaker 2>In the past and H one B visa would set

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<v Speaker 2>companies back several thousand dollars for the application fee and

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<v Speaker 2>subsequent costs. But as of September twenty first, any new

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<v Speaker 2>applications for the work visa will carry a one hundred

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<v Speaker 2>thousand dollars fee. Here's US Secretary of Commerce Howard Ludnik.

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<v Speaker 2>So the whole.

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<v Speaker 3>Idea is no more.

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<v Speaker 2>All these big tech companies or other big companies train

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<v Speaker 2>foreign workers.

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<v Speaker 3>They have to pay the government one hundred thousand dollars,

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<v Speaker 3>then they have to.

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<v Speaker 1>Pay the employee.

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<v Speaker 3>So it's it's just non economic.

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<v Speaker 2>Suncope says. This was the last straw for our Yush

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<v Speaker 2>and his family. He's now decided to leave the US

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<v Speaker 2>and is looking for jobs in Europe.

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<v Speaker 3>US is now not a place they want to be in.

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<v Speaker 3>This is not the fear that they want to live

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<v Speaker 3>with that will be kicked out or we won't be

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<v Speaker 3>admitted in He says that I'm not really sure. You know,

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<v Speaker 3>Trump is unpredictable. What if he wakes up tomorrow morning

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<v Speaker 3>with a cup of coffee, changes the rules and says, okay,

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<v Speaker 3>this rule applies to even existing H onebb's a holders.

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<v Speaker 3>I just do not want to live with that stress.

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<v Speaker 3>It's okay. I will earn less money somewhere else, but

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<v Speaker 3>at least I'll be happy.

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<v Speaker 2>This is the Big Take Asia from Bloomberg News. I'm wanha.

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<v Speaker 2>Every week we take you inside some of the world's

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<v Speaker 2>biggest and most powerful economies and the markets, tycoons, and

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<v Speaker 2>businesses that drive this ever shifting region. Today, on the

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<v Speaker 2>show the one hundred thousand dollars Visa, what Trump's new

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<v Speaker 2>visa fee means for Indian talent and could the US's

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<v Speaker 2>loss be India's game. The H one B visa program

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<v Speaker 2>was introduced in nineteen ninety to address specific labor shortages.

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<v Speaker 2>It allows companies in the US to hire college educated

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<v Speaker 2>foreign workers for specialized jobs for up to six years.

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<v Speaker 2>Since H one B is a dual intent visa, an

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<v Speaker 2>employer can sponsor the same worker for a green card,

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<v Speaker 2>which grants them permanent residency even while the worker is

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<v Speaker 2>still on the H one B Bloomberg sankalp Fartial says

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<v Speaker 2>today more than sixty percent of H one B visas

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<v Speaker 2>are used by the tech industry.

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<v Speaker 3>The US companies like Google and Microsoft and Amazon are

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<v Speaker 3>among the biggest users of H oneb's, but also Indian

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<v Speaker 3>outsourcers or IT services companies like Tata Consultancy Services or

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<v Speaker 3>Emphasis are big users. The way it works is that

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<v Speaker 3>companies see a requirement for specialized let's say, in this case,

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<v Speaker 3>engineering talent, and they don't seem to find them in

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<v Speaker 3>the US, so employers make the applications. There's a lottery

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<v Speaker 3>system every year, and once the lottery is taken out,

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<v Speaker 3>whoever gets their name in gets to go to the US.

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<v Speaker 2>About eighty five thousand new HEV visas are issued every year.

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<v Speaker 2>Sixty five thousand of them bring in general talent from abroad.

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<v Speaker 2>The remaining twenty thousand are reserved for non US citizens

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<v Speaker 2>who received advanced degrees from American universities. Since twenty eleven,

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<v Speaker 2>roughly seventy percent of the visas approved each year have

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<v Speaker 2>gone to Indian born citizens. Sankop says, for a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of educated middle class Indians going to the US has

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<v Speaker 2>been the ultimate dream, the American dream.

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<v Speaker 3>You know, like everybody else from my generation. I sat

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<v Speaker 3>for an engineering exam. Thankfully I did not get thro.

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<v Speaker 3>I would have made a terrible engineer. But common saying

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<v Speaker 3>in India that if you throw a rock up in

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<v Speaker 3>the air, it'd probably hit an engineer. We have so

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<v Speaker 3>many engineers and engining colleges here, and engineering was and

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<v Speaker 3>continues to be seen as a pathway to a better life,

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<v Speaker 3>as a pathway to go to the US, as a

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<v Speaker 3>means to get a green card or maybe settle in

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<v Speaker 3>the US, essentially a better lifestyle and a good career.

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<v Speaker 2>It also meant they learned far more than they would

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<v Speaker 2>staying in India.

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<v Speaker 3>If you look at the conversion rate of dollar to

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<v Speaker 3>the rupee, Indians would send money home and they would

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<v Speaker 3>make their savings and rupees, so effectively they're paid much more.

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<v Speaker 3>Someone with a master's degree and who's been in the

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<v Speaker 3>US on an H one B for about four years

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<v Speaker 3>could make anywhere between one hundred and fifty thousand dollars

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<v Speaker 3>to two hundred thousand dollars a year. The kind of

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<v Speaker 3>money that someone with that experience and the would make

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<v Speaker 3>would be in millions of rupees, but not as much

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<v Speaker 3>as somebody like that would make in the US.

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<v Speaker 2>But the program has come under criticism in recent years.

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<v Speaker 3>Conservatives have criticized this program for taking away US jobs

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<v Speaker 3>for cheap labor, including from India, undercutting US jobs.

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<v Speaker 2>In its statement announcing changes to the H one B

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<v Speaker 2>visa program, the White House said American workers were being

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<v Speaker 2>replaced with lower paid foreign labor and called it a

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<v Speaker 2>national security threat. The Trump administration also claimed some entry

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<v Speaker 2>LEVELHEB visa holders make about a third less than full

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<v Speaker 2>time traditional workers. That wasn't verified by Bloomberg, but a

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<v Speaker 2>Bloomberg investigation published earlier this year did find that US

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<v Speaker 2>banks and telecom companies used the visa program to hire

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<v Speaker 2>lower paid workers. They were able to do this indirectly

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<v Speaker 2>through staffing and outsourcing companies that have previously been able

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<v Speaker 2>to capture about half of the new visas allocated each year.

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<v Speaker 2>By introducing a high barrier to hiring foreign workers, the

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<v Speaker 2>hope is that companies would train and hire Americans instead,

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<v Speaker 2>but Sandhope says it's not year whether that will happen.

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<v Speaker 3>Not everybody is undercutting jobs. There may be few who

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<v Speaker 3>are undercutting American skilled workers, but the whole idea revolves

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<v Speaker 3>around the fact that America has a dearth of STEM

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<v Speaker 3>talent science, tech, engineering, and math, and Indians or Chinese

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<v Speaker 3>seem to be more skilled on those aspects. This is

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<v Speaker 3>a very conservative approach to say that these people are

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<v Speaker 3>taking away American jobs, because when these people go to

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<v Speaker 3>American companies, they're also creating more jobs. They're paying Social Security,

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<v Speaker 3>they're paying taxes, so that's fueling the economy as well.

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<v Speaker 3>The way to look at this is that this is

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<v Speaker 3>essentially putting breaks on a moving car that was doing

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<v Speaker 3>well for the US. And if you don't bring H

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<v Speaker 3>one B workers to the US to work for companies,

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<v Speaker 3>that means you're essentially raising the costs for American corporations

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<v Speaker 3>as well, because these people go there specifically to work

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<v Speaker 3>on the demand of American corporations. For Indian outsources, they

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<v Speaker 3>send these people to client sites. They're important and maintaining

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<v Speaker 3>client relationships, work for clients and sensitive projects.

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<v Speaker 2>What potentially could be the ripple effects for Indian IT

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<v Speaker 2>firms like Infosys and tatas some of the biggest who

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<v Speaker 2>do use H one bs and as well as the

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<v Speaker 2>next tier of companies right the software services firms.

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<v Speaker 3>Software services companies in India are already struggling with muted growth.

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<v Speaker 3>They also have a new challenge, journey AI. So this

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<v Speaker 3>is another kick on the backside, if I can call

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<v Speaker 3>it that, in terms of how they will whether the storm.

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<v Speaker 3>They are considering sending fewer people. At the same time,

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<v Speaker 3>employers could be willing to pay that one hundred thousand

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<v Speaker 3>dollar fee. They really want skilled talent from India to

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<v Speaker 3>go to the US. But those are the ones that

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<v Speaker 3>are really, really smart, and those are the ones that

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<v Speaker 3>employers are willing to pay for. So there'll be a

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<v Speaker 3>certain reduction in the number of people that go to

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<v Speaker 3>the US. Will h one be alone uppend the entire

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<v Speaker 3>Indian IT industry, No, I don't believe it will.

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<v Speaker 2>As the US raises barriers for foreign workers. Is the

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<v Speaker 2>American dream out of reach for Indians? And can India

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<v Speaker 2>or other countries capitalize on this opportunity to lure talent

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<v Speaker 2>for tens of thousands of Indian workers. The dream of

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<v Speaker 2>building a career in the United States may be slipping away,

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<v Speaker 2>but sanjap Partial says new opportunities are opening up elsewhere.

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<v Speaker 2>Could the policy also unintentionally in some ways benefit India

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<v Speaker 2>by retaining more skilled workers here domestically instead of them

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<v Speaker 2>going overseas.

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<v Speaker 3>It's a theory, It's a good theory, but not likely.

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<v Speaker 3>It all depends on whether India seizes the moment to

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<v Speaker 3>bring out policies that could help retain talent, because one

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<v Speaker 3>of the biggest reasons Indian talent went outside was more money.

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<v Speaker 3>But all so stable policy, good working environment, the chance

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<v Speaker 3>to work in a global company. If India is able

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<v Speaker 3>to give its talent good product and services jobs, create

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<v Speaker 3>a global work environment, maintain that healthy work life balance. Yes,

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<v Speaker 3>we could retain some talent, but one could argue that

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<v Speaker 3>good talent will always find its way to find the

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<v Speaker 3>best job.

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<v Speaker 2>I want to talk a little bit about the on

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<v Speaker 2>the ground effect, you know, impact as well. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>the H one B program has been a part of

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<v Speaker 2>this market success for a lot of Indians being able

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<v Speaker 2>to work in the US. What does this mean for

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<v Speaker 2>you know, those people and their kind of hopes and dreams.

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<v Speaker 3>I've been speaking to some of the people who've gone

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<v Speaker 3>to the US on each one BS, even some students.

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<v Speaker 3>There is a sense of extreme nervousness. I think the

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<v Speaker 3>constant flip flop on policy, which wasn't the case in

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<v Speaker 3>the US earlier, is something that terrifies people and makes

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<v Speaker 3>them extremely nervous. And so I think the whole idea

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<v Speaker 3>that US is a stable place to work for foreigners

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<v Speaker 3>or immigrants, that ideas just shattered.

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<v Speaker 2>Some countries are already moving to capitalize on the chaos.

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<v Speaker 2>After Trump announced the changes to the H and B program,

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<v Speaker 2>the UK said Britain will make it easier for companies

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<v Speaker 2>to bring in top talent.

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<v Speaker 3>Canada, UK, Australia and Eastern Europe are emerging as new

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<v Speaker 3>tech and outsourcing hubs, and even though salaries there could

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<v Speaker 3>be lower than in the Silicon Valley or the US

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<v Speaker 3>in general, these new hubs will be able to draw

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<v Speaker 3>Indian talent because of good working conditions and competitive pay packages.

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<v Speaker 2>Meanwhile, Germany's ambassador to India released a video message encouraging

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<v Speaker 2>skilled Indian professionals to consider Germany as their next destination.

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<v Speaker 1>Highly skilled Indians are welcoming Germany. Our migration policy works

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<v Speaker 1>a bit like a German car. It's reliable, it is modern,

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<v Speaker 1>it is predictable, it will go in a straight line.

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<v Speaker 2>And while this may look like a golden opportunity to

0:13:05.120 --> 0:13:09.240
<v Speaker 2>attract foreign talent, Sankop says one country could end up

0:13:09.240 --> 0:13:14.319
<v Speaker 2>missing out India itself. The country is grappling with rising

0:13:14.480 --> 0:13:18.280
<v Speaker 2>use unemployment and an underemployment crisis.

0:13:18.760 --> 0:13:22.839
<v Speaker 3>We have reported instance of college workers sitting on the bench.

0:13:22.880 --> 0:13:25.720
<v Speaker 3>They've been hired by companies, but they're not actively involved

0:13:25.720 --> 0:13:28.040
<v Speaker 3>in projects or day to day work even though they

0:13:28.040 --> 0:13:29.400
<v Speaker 3>are hired on paper.

0:13:29.480 --> 0:13:30.680
<v Speaker 2>And why is that.

0:13:30.520 --> 0:13:34.480
<v Speaker 3>If I talk specifically about IT companies, the business of

0:13:34.520 --> 0:13:38.040
<v Speaker 3>IT companies depends on work given by clients. So if

0:13:38.080 --> 0:13:41.640
<v Speaker 3>because the war in Europe, or because of the war

0:13:41.679 --> 0:13:44.960
<v Speaker 3>in the Middle East or sanctions on Russia, if companies

0:13:45.000 --> 0:13:48.880
<v Speaker 3>are pausing spence, then that directly translates to lesser work

0:13:48.920 --> 0:13:52.000
<v Speaker 3>for Indian outsources, which means that the people they've hired

0:13:52.000 --> 0:13:55.240
<v Speaker 3>from colleges have to sit back till the time they're

0:13:55.240 --> 0:13:57.679
<v Speaker 3>called for work by the Indian companies. You could call

0:13:57.720 --> 0:14:00.680
<v Speaker 3>it disguised unemployment. They're hired on pay, but they're not

0:14:00.720 --> 0:14:03.560
<v Speaker 3>getting any salaries or they're not getting any work as yet.

0:14:04.120 --> 0:14:08.120
<v Speaker 3>And also AI is a disruptor. AI will disrupt more

0:14:08.120 --> 0:14:10.840
<v Speaker 3>and more work, which means that all of the college

0:14:10.840 --> 0:14:15.000
<v Speaker 3>graduates in engineering may not immediately get jobs.

0:14:15.120 --> 0:14:18.960
<v Speaker 2>Another factor that could discourage skilled Indian professionals from staying

0:14:18.960 --> 0:14:21.200
<v Speaker 2>in India the work culture.

0:14:21.200 --> 0:14:25.000
<v Speaker 3>Our majority of businesses in India are family run. These

0:14:25.040 --> 0:14:29.800
<v Speaker 3>are not professionally run businesses, which essentially boils down to

0:14:29.880 --> 0:14:34.520
<v Speaker 3>a very toxic workplace situation or a non professional setup.

0:14:35.080 --> 0:14:37.760
<v Speaker 3>And you don't have the semblance of a work life balance.

0:14:37.920 --> 0:14:41.440
<v Speaker 3>So the idea of working in a global cooperation comes

0:14:41.440 --> 0:14:44.880
<v Speaker 3>with its compensation benefits as well as good work life balance,

0:14:44.920 --> 0:14:47.760
<v Speaker 3>a global culture, and I think that's what's lacking in

0:14:47.760 --> 0:14:48.560
<v Speaker 3>Indian companies.

0:14:49.440 --> 0:14:52.160
<v Speaker 2>Still, Sandcops says the ripple effects of H and B

0:14:52.320 --> 0:14:55.760
<v Speaker 2>visa changes might help India retain some of its talent,

0:14:56.080 --> 0:14:59.520
<v Speaker 2>at least for now. India has the third largest startup

0:14:59.560 --> 0:15:03.160
<v Speaker 2>ecosys in the world, trailing only the US and China.

0:15:03.560 --> 0:15:06.760
<v Speaker 3>If American companies continue to push hard on these global

0:15:06.760 --> 0:15:09.480
<v Speaker 3>capability centers, you could make the case that a lot

0:15:09.480 --> 0:15:11.600
<v Speaker 3>of Indian talent would otherwise go to the US on

0:15:11.760 --> 0:15:14.760
<v Speaker 3>H one bes could end up working in India with

0:15:15.160 --> 0:15:18.840
<v Speaker 3>American corporations in their innovation in their R and D centers.

0:15:19.400 --> 0:15:22.400
<v Speaker 3>Right now, everything is pretty volatile. The situation is still emerging,

0:15:22.800 --> 0:15:25.200
<v Speaker 3>but in the long run, I think things should settle

0:15:25.720 --> 0:15:27.480
<v Speaker 3>and it shouldn't be that bad.

0:15:28.040 --> 0:15:29.960
<v Speaker 2>There have been a series of blows to India from

0:15:30.120 --> 0:15:33.360
<v Speaker 2>US policy. First there were moves to restrict student visas.

0:15:33.440 --> 0:15:36.160
<v Speaker 2>Then India got hit with fifty percent tariffs, which is

0:15:36.200 --> 0:15:38.800
<v Speaker 2>among the highest of countries, and now of course h

0:15:38.880 --> 0:15:41.920
<v Speaker 2>one B's. For many years, India was seen as a

0:15:41.960 --> 0:15:45.760
<v Speaker 2>partner for the US in Asia. Do Indians now feel

0:15:45.800 --> 0:15:49.840
<v Speaker 2>like the relationship is taking this dramatic downward.

0:15:49.480 --> 0:15:52.360
<v Speaker 3>Term, Yes, of course. I mean it's quite visible to

0:15:52.440 --> 0:15:57.720
<v Speaker 3>Indians that America, which had seen India as a friend

0:15:57.720 --> 0:16:01.880
<v Speaker 3>over the decades, the sort of camaraderie that existed between

0:16:02.040 --> 0:16:06.080
<v Speaker 3>President Trump and Prime Minister Modi is definitely fading because

0:16:06.320 --> 0:16:10.120
<v Speaker 3>we've seen these punitive measures in India. And when I

0:16:10.160 --> 0:16:13.480
<v Speaker 3>talk to sources in the tech industry, when I talk

0:16:13.600 --> 0:16:18.760
<v Speaker 3>to political people, there's always a sense that the US

0:16:19.040 --> 0:16:24.200
<v Speaker 3>has not been kind to India and has been extremely

0:16:24.280 --> 0:16:29.520
<v Speaker 3>harsh and has not valued the strategic relationship that it wanted,

0:16:29.640 --> 0:16:32.920
<v Speaker 3>that the two countries wanted. I think the government certainly

0:16:33.000 --> 0:16:38.080
<v Speaker 3>is recalibrating its US policy, but Indians in general continue

0:16:38.080 --> 0:16:43.120
<v Speaker 3>to see US as a destination. Indian skill talent continues

0:16:43.160 --> 0:16:46.680
<v Speaker 3>to view US companies as a destination for their careers.

0:16:47.120 --> 0:16:51.360
<v Speaker 3>So to the general public, US and its leure is

0:16:51.400 --> 0:16:52.000
<v Speaker 3>still there.

0:16:52.640 --> 0:16:55.680
<v Speaker 2>Could this turn into a moment for India, for India

0:16:55.720 --> 0:16:58.960
<v Speaker 2>to rise, to really find a way to change its

0:16:58.960 --> 0:17:03.479
<v Speaker 2>culture to make it more appealing for the most educated,

0:17:03.840 --> 0:17:06.840
<v Speaker 2>the most talented to stay here in India and not

0:17:07.320 --> 0:17:08.800
<v Speaker 2>go overseas for opportunity.

0:17:09.280 --> 0:17:11.120
<v Speaker 3>I would certainly hope so, But I could have said

0:17:11.160 --> 0:17:14.520
<v Speaker 3>that at any point in the last twenty years. It

0:17:14.600 --> 0:17:18.960
<v Speaker 3>really depends on whether India's able to create the kind

0:17:18.960 --> 0:17:23.200
<v Speaker 3>of global environment that it's skilled professionals need, Whether India

0:17:23.240 --> 0:17:25.639
<v Speaker 3>is able to create that kind of physical as well

0:17:25.680 --> 0:17:31.840
<v Speaker 3>as digital infrastructure that global professionals need. Whether India is

0:17:31.880 --> 0:17:37.040
<v Speaker 3>able to give global companies the ease of doing business

0:17:37.040 --> 0:17:40.720
<v Speaker 3>that they find in China or in Vietnam. It really

0:17:40.720 --> 0:17:43.560
<v Speaker 3>depends on how the government wants to seize this opportunity.

0:17:43.600 --> 0:17:46.800
<v Speaker 3>Can we do better and turn India into a global

0:17:46.840 --> 0:17:50.320
<v Speaker 3>workplace bigger than it already is, Yes we can. Is

0:17:50.359 --> 0:17:53.560
<v Speaker 3>there room for improvement, yes, But you know, all of

0:17:53.600 --> 0:17:56.600
<v Speaker 3>the world's biggest corporations are already here, and I think

0:17:56.720 --> 0:18:01.640
<v Speaker 3>we are very much near to grabbing this moment and

0:18:01.640 --> 0:18:02.480
<v Speaker 3>making it ours.

0:18:08.280 --> 0:18:11.679
<v Speaker 2>This is The Big Take Asia from Bloomberg News. I'm wanha.

0:18:12.320 --> 0:18:15.040
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0:18:15.080 --> 0:18:18.120
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0:18:18.200 --> 0:18:21.760
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0:18:21.880 --> 0:18:24.560
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0:18:24.680 --> 0:18:27.680
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