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Speaker 1: There's a battle underway at Notre Dame over a controversial appointment.

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Speaker 1: We will be joined by a professor and a priest

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Speaker 1: of the Holy Cross Order, and the Pope calls the

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Speaker 1: US and Cuba to dialogue as the Society of Saint

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Speaker 1: Pius the Tenth is about to unilaterally ordain bishops. It's

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Speaker 1: all ahead on this Prayerful Posse. Welcome to the Prayerful Posse.

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Speaker 1: Be sure to subscribe to the show. It's a wonderful

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Speaker 1: way to support our work totally free, or visit Raymond

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Speaker 1: Royo dot com if you'd like to contribute. We'll convene

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Speaker 1: the Prayerful Posse in a moment, but first I have

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Speaker 1: to get and welcome Father Bill, Miss Campbell. He's an

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Speaker 1: historian and a priest from the University of Notre Dame.

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Speaker 1: Father Bill, thank you for being here. The University of

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Speaker 1: Notre Dame has appointed Susan Osterman. She's a political scientist

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Speaker 1: with the public record of supporting abortion rights. Now she

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Speaker 1: will be leading the Asian Studies Department. In the past,

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Speaker 1: she's equated the pro life movement with white supremacy. She

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Speaker 1: suggested that church pregnancy centers are propaganda fronts to mislead

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Speaker 1: vulnerable women that she said easy access to abortion is

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Speaker 1: an essential component of integral human development. Father Bill in

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Speaker 1: a letter to the editor of Notre Dame's Observer, the

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Speaker 1: student newspaper, you called Osterman's appointment untenable. The university says

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Speaker 1: something very different before we get to that. Why do

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Speaker 1: you say it's untenable?

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Speaker 2: Look, Raymond, anyone holding those positions that you have just

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Speaker 2: outlined so carefully and well cannot be held to be

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Speaker 2: in accord with the university's mission, which of course is

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Speaker 2: focused on our Catholic identity and character. And in the

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Speaker 2: mission statement, we give voice to the idea that we

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Speaker 2: are going to uphold fundamental Church social and moral teaching.

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Speaker 2: And of course we know of the Church's teaching on

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Speaker 2: the sanctity of human life, and there's no doubt that

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Speaker 2: Susan Ostman not simply disagrees with that teaching, but as

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Speaker 2: a vocal advocate for trying to overcome that teaching, to

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Speaker 2: oppose that teaching, and the idea that she would be

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Speaker 2: appointed to head our Asian Studies Institute when we know

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Speaker 2: of the impact of population control, forced abortion, etc. In

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Speaker 2: In China, in India, etc. It's just a travesty. I

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Speaker 2: cannot understand how the Notre Dame administration has initially made

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Speaker 2: the appointment in beggars belief, but then I'm deeply disappointed

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Speaker 2: that they haven't rescinded the appointment.

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Speaker 1: By this point, I want to share with the audience, father,

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Speaker 1: what the university is saying. Here's how they're framing this appointment.

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Speaker 1: They say, those who serve in leadership positions at Notre

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Speaker 1: Dame do so with the clear understanding that their decision

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Speaker 1: making as leaders must be guided by and consistent with

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Speaker 1: the university's Catholic mission. Notre Dame's commitment to upholding the

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Speaker 1: inherent dignity of the human person and the sanctity of

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Speaker 1: life at every stage is on wavering. Your response to that,

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Speaker 1: as a Holy Cross priest has lived most of your

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Speaker 1: life there.

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Speaker 2: Well, I certainly endorsed that that's what Notre Dame leaders

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Speaker 2: should be doing, Raymond. The trouble is that Susan Ostman

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Speaker 2: is not capable of upholding that. Her whole academic record

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Speaker 2: over these recent years numerous op eds arguing in favor

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Speaker 2: of abortion. She edits a journal that has just come

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Speaker 2: out with the latest issue on population control. All of

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Speaker 2: her academic work undercuts and it's precisely because the university

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Speaker 2: has that requirement, if you will, for those who would

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Speaker 2: take on leadership positions. She is completely unsuitable for this role.

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Speaker 2: There is no way that she can separate her pro

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Speaker 2: abortion advocacy from her leadership of this Asian Studies institute.

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Speaker 1: You know what your colleagues on the other side of

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Speaker 1: this will say. They'll say, wait a minute, she's just

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Speaker 1: leading this Asian institute. It's not about theology.

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Speaker 2: You would respond, how, there is no way that you

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Speaker 2: could say that issues regarding population would not be involved

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Speaker 2: in issues regarding Asia. Look, Raymond, you've had on your

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Speaker 2: program at different stages, folks talking about the crisis, the

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Speaker 2: demographic issues involved in Asia, China's one child policy, human

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Speaker 2: rights abuses in China, India, etc. There's no way that

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Speaker 2: anyone could argue this is an issue that can be

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Speaker 2: separated out from how a leader. We should have a

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Speaker 2: leader of that Asian Studies Institute who can look closely

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Speaker 2: at what has happened to population issues and be able

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Speaker 2: to be guided by Catholic teaching. Poor Susan Ostermann cannot

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Speaker 2: do that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Father, Here's another question I have for you. You've been

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Speaker 1: there for decades at Notre Dame. Yes, you've watched this

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Speaker 1: slow drift away from its Catholic mission. Is there something

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Speaker 1: unique about this appointment that particularly alarms you and should

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Speaker 1: alarm the faithful.

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Speaker 2: There is something I have never seen, not in the

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Speaker 2: Hesperg years, the Maloy years, even in the Jenkins years,

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Speaker 2: an appointment of someone so aggressively pro abortion named to

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Speaker 2: a leadership position at Notre Dame. If this position were

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Speaker 2: to stand, which I pray it will not, it would

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Speaker 2: essentially mean folks could hold any position contrary to church

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Speaker 2: teaching and be allowed to have a leadership position at

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Speaker 2: Notre Dame. There is something distinctive about this. I would

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Speaker 2: also clarify, though, Raymond, it's it's not simply at Notre

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Speaker 2: Dame a sort of a slow decline. We have a

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Speaker 2: battle going on here for the heart and soul of

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Speaker 2: the university. You might have noted that just this past

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Speaker 2: week we had two thousand students out on the quad

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Speaker 2: attending a mass with an ice sculpture.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, the video.

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Speaker 2: It's deep faith filled commitment on the part of students here,

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Speaker 2: our right to life. Students just came out with a

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Speaker 2: wonderful statement calling for this appointment to be rescinded. So

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Speaker 2: I want your your listeners, your viewers to understand that

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Speaker 2: there are certain people in the administration who seem to

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Speaker 2: be wanting to undercut all the good work that is

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Speaker 2: going on here on campus.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and that beautiful express I mean, there were like

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Speaker 1: two thousand kids in the freezing court. They built a

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Speaker 1: they built a little ice cathedral and had mass outdoors.

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Speaker 1: It was splendid, and it does beg the question why

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Speaker 1: would they want to undermine or undercut that kind of

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Speaker 1: organic commitment and faith from the students themselves. Father Bill,

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Speaker 1: you've written a lot about higher education. We talked about

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Speaker 1: this before we started, and the role of your fellow

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Speaker 1: Holy Cross priest, Father Theodore Hesberg, your autobiography of him,

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Speaker 1: you interviewed him. Tell us how Hesberg may have gotten

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Speaker 1: the ball rolling on an appointment like this.

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Speaker 2: One of the things that I would introduce is Father

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Speaker 2: Hesburgh's great desire for acceptance in American higher education from,

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Speaker 2: if you will, the sort of secular elite. And when

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Speaker 2: you seek after that acceptance to you know closely, you

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Speaker 2: sort of crave it. You accommodate, you appease the views

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Speaker 2: of other places. And that's where I'm pretty sure Raymond

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Speaker 2: Father Hesburg would never, never have made disappointment. But nonetheless,

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Speaker 2: in that desire to sort of gain approval of the

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Speaker 2: Ivy League crowd and Duke in Northwestern, etc. By sending

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Speaker 2: us down that path, he put at risk some elements

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Speaker 2: of the Catholic mission of the university. There was an

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Speaker 2: accommodating spirit that wasn't work, and I bring that out

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Speaker 2: in my book American Priest, his desire to accommodate to

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Speaker 2: the general norms of American higher education. But as you

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Speaker 2: know well, any Catholic institution that is going to be

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Speaker 2: worth its salt is going to focus on its Catholic

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Speaker 2: mission as its fundamental task.

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Speaker 1: give me a sense of this collapse of the historical

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Speaker 1: that we're seeing and historic literacy on college campuses. History

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Speaker 1: has become you're a history professor. History has become like

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Speaker 1: a dirty word. Tell us the implications for that, not

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Speaker 1: only on Catholicism, but on society as a whole.

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Speaker 2: Yes, well again, I would say that's where there's a

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Speaker 2: real debate taking place, just the focus on American history.

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Speaker 2: There's been a sort of a declining interest to focus

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Speaker 2: on sort of the negative without seeing the great American

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Speaker 2: story that folks should appreciate. Us. We come up for

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Speaker 2: the two hundred and fiftieth celebration of the Declaration of Independence.

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Speaker 2: Folks need to reclaim, reclaim a deep understanding of what

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Speaker 2: motivates the church, what is good, what is beautiful? What

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Speaker 2: is true about the past? And to study the past

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Speaker 2: is of course, to see the complexity of the story.

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Speaker 2: No one's saying everything has been perfect, but there's been

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Speaker 2: far too much emphasis on the negative. We have a

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Speaker 2: situation here at Notre Dame where our Columbus murals have

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Speaker 2: been covered over because somehow other Columbus is blame for

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Speaker 2: all the ills that have occurred in the United States

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Speaker 2: subsequent to fourteen ninety two. It's just nonsensical and a

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Speaker 2: total lack of appreciation for a proper understanding of history.

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Speaker 1: Well, father, Miss Campbell, we will check in with you

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Speaker 1: again about this appointment and what happens at Notre Dame.

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Speaker 1: I know you're pressing hard, but it doesn't seem as

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Speaker 1: if the administration at the moment is budgeing. Do you

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Speaker 1: see movement?

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Speaker 2: I do not at this stage. The Fellows and Trustees

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Speaker 2: are supposed to meet at the end of this week,

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Speaker 2: and I ask your listeners to keep this matter in

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Speaker 2: their prayers. Thank you Raymond, Thank you the miss of

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Speaker 2: the Posse. I appreciate it. God bless you will.

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Speaker 1: Now I want to bring in the papal posse. I'm

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Speaker 1: joined by canon lawyer and priest of the Archdiocese of

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Speaker 1: New York, Father Gerald Murray, Editor in chief of the

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Speaker 1: Catholic Thing dot Org. Also joins us Robert Royal. Thank

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Speaker 1: you both for being here. Father you first, how did

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Speaker 1: you interpret this appointment by Notre Dame? What do you

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Speaker 1: make of this?

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Speaker 3: This is more of the same.

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Speaker 4: Unfortunately, it's siding with secular values, and to call abortion

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Speaker 4: the value, of course, is a perversion of language. This

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Speaker 4: is a siding with the feminist agenda that views abortion

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Speaker 4: as being untouchable, that in order to be fully a woman,

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Speaker 4: you have to have the right to kill your child

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Speaker 4: in the womb. The Catholic Church rejects that, of course,

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Speaker 4: and so does common sense and logic. But unfortunately Notre Dame,

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Speaker 4: which is financed largely by dollars contributed over time by Catholics'

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Speaker 4: is using that money to pay the salary of someone

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Speaker 4: who holds as father. Miss Campbell was saying a very

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Speaker 4: radical position which is really contemptuous of the Church's teaching.

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Speaker 4: It makes no sense to me that if they want

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Speaker 4: to be known as a Catholic research university, that they

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Speaker 4: can't find an actual Catholic who is involved in research

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Speaker 4: on Asia to run their Asia Institute.

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Speaker 1: Well, father, here's what they say, and Bob, I'll get

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Speaker 1: your reaction to this. Professor Susan Austerman is a highly

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Speaker 1: regarded political scientist, legal scholar who's insightful research on regulatory

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Speaker 1: compliance demonstrates the rigorous interdisciplinary expertise required to lead the

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Speaker 1: LIU Institute. They say she's committed to the ideals of

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Speaker 1: the university, is she father.

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Speaker 4: Very quickly, Well, the ideals of the university include Catholic teaching,

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Speaker 4: which they say they are there to promote, and their

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Speaker 4: faculty and staff have to respect it. She doesn't respect it.

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Speaker 4: She doesn't qualify this. This is a contradiction. This is

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Speaker 4: like you know that the vegetarians of America would bring

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Speaker 4: a beef company indicator their gala events. You don't do this.

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Speaker 4: I'm saying, making it a light of it, but I'm

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Speaker 4: very serious. You do not have a Catholic university promoting

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Speaker 4: anti Catholic teachings.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you're counterprogramming the main thrust of the place itself.

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Speaker 1: Bob Susan Osterman herself said, as I step into this role,

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Speaker 1: my primary focus is to serve as a steward of

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Speaker 1: the LOU Institute for the mission in the context of

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Speaker 1: the university's large mission, maintaining an environment of academic freedom

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Speaker 1: where a plurality of voices can flourish. I want to

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Speaker 1: be clear, she says, my role as LOU director is

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Speaker 1: to support the diverse research of our scholars and students,

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Speaker 1: not to advance a personal political agenda. Your reaction.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, diverse points of view. Indeed, look, this is all

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Speaker 3: part and parcel in academic circles, which is and I

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Speaker 3: agree with father and with you. I mean, look, we

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Speaker 3: can't find another eminent scholar according to father missus Campbell.

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Speaker 3: I mean, she's got one book, and you know she's

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Speaker 3: not a bad scholar, but there isn't anybody else out

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Speaker 3: there who does those same issues and is also fully

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Speaker 3: on board with Catholicism. It's just beggar's belief. You know.

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Speaker 3: What she's done. This is quite a radical person. When

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Speaker 3: she has written outside about abortion, she has talked about

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Speaker 3: abortion as being an instrument of white supremacy and of racism.

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Speaker 3: Now this is part of that. It's called intersectionality. This

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Speaker 3: is not an inter discipline or it's intersectionality where Blacks

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Speaker 3: and LGBTs and Muslims, etc. They're all part of one group,

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Speaker 3: you think, but they're not actually that. You know, real

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Speaker 3: women don't want to have men swimming against them in

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Speaker 3: college sports. They don't want men in their locker rooms

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Speaker 3: or in their changing rooms or whatever. This is a

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Speaker 3: very radical point of view, and Notre Dame has the

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Speaker 3: history of some of this. The woman who actually created

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Speaker 3: the sixteen nineteen project at The New York Times as

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Speaker 3: a graduate of the University of Notre Dame. So there's

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Speaker 3: been this stuff around for quite a while. Why you

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Speaker 3: have to appoint somebody like this to that position? It's

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Speaker 3: you know, it's not a major position. But given that

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Speaker 3: China is a growing power in the world, do we

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Speaker 3: really want to put somebody there who is going to

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Speaker 3: be weak about an issue? You know, China's one child

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Speaker 3: policy has destroyed their demographics. There aren't enough women around

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Speaker 3: because women were aborted more often than men. Not enough

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Speaker 3: women around for the men. Their population is collapsing. It's

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Speaker 3: going to have enormous consequences for their economy. And I

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Speaker 3: don't think that this particular professor is going to be

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Speaker 3: in a good position from a Catholic point of view

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Speaker 3: to talk about those issues.

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Speaker 1: move on to pop Leo. The fourteenth, he issued a

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Speaker 1: statement calling for dialogue father between the United States and Cuba,

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Speaker 1: echoing the concerns of the Cuban Bishop's Conference. Here's what

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Speaker 1: he wrote. I joined the message of the Cuban bishops

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Speaker 1: inviting all those responsible to promote sincere and effective dialogue

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Speaker 1: in order to avoid violence and any action that could

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Speaker 1: increase the suffering of the beloved Cuban people. Boba. But

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Speaker 1: to go back to you for very quickly, what's your

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Speaker 1: read on Leo's intervention here.

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Speaker 3: Well, look, it's always going to be the case that

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Speaker 3: a pope is going to try to encourage dialogue in peace.

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Speaker 3: We've talked about this before in other circumstances, but the

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Speaker 3: case in Cuba is a really a painful. When Father

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Speaker 3: Murray and I have both been in kub We were,

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Speaker 3: in fact, we are both there together when John Paul

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Speaker 3: was there in nineteen ninety eight, and it's a country

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Speaker 3: that you can see from the architecture, etc. Once was

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Speaker 3: a wealthy, dynamic society that has gone backwards. I say,

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Speaker 3: I've never seen anything like it other than an archaeological site,

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Speaker 3: because you rarely see a civilization go backwards the way

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Speaker 3: Cuba has.

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Speaker 2: Now.

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Speaker 3: The bishops have said, there are people are suffering and

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Speaker 3: they don't need further suffering. Because of the way the

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Speaker 3: United States minds seeing to seek to limit oil imports

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Speaker 3: to the island. That's only one part of the issue. However,

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Speaker 3: the other question is liberties. The way that they are

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Speaker 3: political prisoners, the way that there's a nasty regime of

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Speaker 3: Norman Clautura, a communist Norman Claudtur that's been running that

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Speaker 3: country for sixty years. And how about that part of

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Speaker 3: the suffering of the Cuban people. So look, the dialogue, Sure,

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Speaker 3: as much as we can talk, like, but we know

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Speaker 3: this has been going on for over half a century,

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Speaker 3: it's likely not to produce very much to talk further.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, look, father Bob points out such an important point.

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Speaker 1: It's like we're ignoring that these people are in bondage.

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Speaker 1: I mean they round up children, they still have camps

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Speaker 1: where they indoctrinate the kids. I mean, this is a

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Speaker 1: communist state. And the Cuban bishops have been walking this

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Speaker 1: tightrope for decades, criticizing the regime just enough to maintain credibility,

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Speaker 1: but not so much that they get, you know, incarcerated

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Speaker 1: or under persecution. But Cuba's bishops called for an environment

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Speaker 1: of healthy plurality and mutual respect within Cuba, whatever that means. Father,

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Speaker 1: Should the Pope be pressuring the US in this way?

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Speaker 1: To soften its stance when the Cuban government literally persecutes

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Speaker 1: the faithful.

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Speaker 4: Well, I think it's always good, and I agree with

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Speaker 4: Bob when the Pope pleads for peace to avoid warfare.

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Speaker 4: But you know what's happening now is the United States

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Speaker 4: is trying to pressure the Cuban government to get into dialogue.

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Speaker 4: You know, now they are prohibiting the sale of oil

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Speaker 4: from Venezuela to Cuba, which is the main support for

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Speaker 4: the Cuban oil needs in that country. It's going to

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Speaker 4: collapse in that sense unless somebody else applies it. But

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Speaker 4: you know, as Bob says too, the main source of

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Speaker 4: suffering for the Cuban people is the Cuban government. The

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Speaker 4: Cuban government is not interested in plurality and free elections.

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Speaker 4: They don't have any political parties except for the Communist Party.

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Speaker 4: There are no independent labor unions. The Catholic Church has

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Speaker 4: been in shackles. There's no independent Catholic media, there are

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Speaker 4: political prisoners. The whole thing is a Nightmayor, and I

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Speaker 4: was there with Bob as he mentioned, and I had

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Speaker 4: the same reaction. I said, this is incredible. This was

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Speaker 4: a beautiful city and a beautiful part of the world.

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Speaker 4: But it's basically it's a prison. It's been and and

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Speaker 4: it's a dump too in the sense that the Cuban

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Speaker 4: Cuban government does nothing about sanitation and maintenance and all

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Speaker 4: the rest. It's really horrible what the Cuban government has done.

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Speaker 4: So I hope the Pope would, you know, get the

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Speaker 4: Cuban leader over to the Vatican and say, look, if

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Speaker 4: you're serious about being in favor of peace and dialogue,

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Speaker 4: sit down with President Trump and make a deal so

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Speaker 4: that the Cuban people can be as happy in Cuba

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Speaker 4: as they are in Miami and elsewhere in the US,

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Speaker 4: where they live freely and with economic prosperity.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I want to move on to the Society of Saint

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Speaker 1: Pius the Tenth. We've talked about them before after what

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Speaker 1: seemed like promising talks with the Vatican. The SSPX. Now,

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Speaker 1: this is a group that loves the traditional Latin Mass.

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Speaker 1: Sort of uh broke away and went their own way

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Speaker 1: after Vatican Two, but they've remained in some very fledgling

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Speaker 1: connection with the Catholic Church. The ssp X said they

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Speaker 1: are proceeding with episcopal ordinations ordination of bishops in July.

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Speaker 1: The society says a letter from the Holy See failed

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Speaker 1: to address their concerns and it was an unsuccessful request

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Speaker 1: for a private meeting with Leo to discuss the continuity

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Speaker 1: of their ministry. According to the pre Vatican to Liturgy Father,

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Speaker 1: this feels like deja vu all over again. I mean

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Speaker 1: this impasse between Archbishop Marcel lefeb back in nineteen eighty eight.

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Speaker 1: What happened here?

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Speaker 4: Well, I think what's happening is that the Holy See

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Speaker 4: under post Francis, made a number of concessions to the

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Speaker 4: Society of Saint Pius the Tenth. The priests received the

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Speaker 4: faculty to hear confessions. They could also witness marrigides and

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Speaker 4: dioceses with local bishops permission. They were allowed to come

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Speaker 4: into Saint Peter's when they made a Holy Year pilgrimage.

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Speaker 4: As a group, they celebrate Mass in other churches, so

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Speaker 4: there was a lot of opening to them. And then

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Speaker 4: they're hoping that they can get more results under Pope Leo.

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Speaker 4: But they haven't had that same level of interest by

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Speaker 4: Pope Leo. So I think they're pressuring, in which for

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Speaker 4: me is not a good way to go with They're

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Speaker 4: claiming is they need to have bishops so they can

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Speaker 4: have someone to ordain and perform confirmations. But you know

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Speaker 4: this is part of the broader question. Will Pope Leo

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Speaker 4: Brant more freedom to the traditional Latin Mass because there

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Speaker 4: are plenty of bishops now would be happy to perform

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Speaker 4: the sacraments in the old Rite. So I think the

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Speaker 4: Holy Sea's got to sit down and look.

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Speaker 3: At the overall issue.

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Speaker 4: Are people who like the Latin Mass going to be

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Speaker 4: given full rights in the Church or they're gonna have

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Speaker 4: to operate in the shadows with disapprobation from the Holy

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Speaker 4: See to a degree. And then sad to say rebel

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Speaker 4: movements leading to illegal ordinations of bishops. We don't need that.

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Speaker 4: We need an accord and we need a Raymond as

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Speaker 4: soon as possible.

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Speaker 1: Now, we've covered this story for decades, Bob, and every

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Speaker 1: time we get close to a reconciliation here between the

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Speaker 1: Society of Saint Pius the Tenth and the Vatican, something

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Speaker 1: blows up. What are the sticking points this time? I

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Speaker 1: know Cardinal Fernandez, who's the Vatican doctrinal chief, is meeting

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Speaker 1: with the leadership of SSPX. I believe near either next

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Speaker 1: week or later this week. Do you think Rome wants

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Speaker 1: them back in full communion.

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Speaker 3: Well, yeah, that of course is the question. We don't

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Speaker 3: really have a very clear idea of what the sticking

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Speaker 3: points are. I mean, clearly, I think the leaders of

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Speaker 3: SSPX have said some inflammatory things. I mean, they keep

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Speaker 3: saying that it's for the sake of the salvation of souls,

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Speaker 3: which of course is the greatest law in the Church

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Speaker 3: that the church exists primarily the salvation of souls. And

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Speaker 3: I agree with the principle, of course, but there's a

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Speaker 3: kind of a backhanded criticism. And I think they still

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Speaker 3: feel burned by what's happened under Pub Francis over the

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Speaker 3: past dozen years, and they're worried a little bit about

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Speaker 3: Leo because Leo has been talking about continuing in that

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Speaker 3: same direction. But they were also, you know, they were

434
00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:12,120
Speaker 3: not happy under John Paul the Second, who I think

435
00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:14,520
Speaker 3: was sympathetic to what they were trying to do, but

436
00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:17,000
Speaker 3: they didn't like the way they were doing it. They

437
00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:19,119
Speaker 3: seem to have moved in a little bit closer because

438
00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:22,119
Speaker 3: Benedict was more deft in handling these issues. I mean,

439
00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:26,000
Speaker 3: we obviously see that they they feel that there's something

440
00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:30,120
Speaker 3: that's going to ry inside the Vatican and they want

441
00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:33,760
Speaker 3: to keep themselves outside. I mean, that kind of separative

442
00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:36,880
Speaker 3: spirit is something that you can't allow, even if it's

443
00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:40,000
Speaker 3: for a good end, because it's the same kind of

444
00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:42,520
Speaker 3: thing that allows, you know, the Germans to go their

445
00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:46,720
Speaker 3: way to become schismatic, that allows the Chinese to appoint bishops.

446
00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:50,040
Speaker 3: I mean, it's a big problem once you remove yourself

447
00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:53,440
Speaker 3: from the authority of the Holy Father to appoint bishops

448
00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:55,680
Speaker 3: and then to empower priests. So a lot to see

449
00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:56,560
Speaker 3: how this plays out.

450
00:26:56,760 --> 00:27:03,280
Speaker 1: Father. If these ssp X ordinations proceed, I guess we're

451
00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:06,520
Speaker 1: looking at another generation in sism. But I mean if

452
00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:12,960
Speaker 1: Rome is demanding compromises on doctrine or liturgy, I guess

453
00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:15,040
Speaker 1: if they see that as a non to vote negotiable,

454
00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:19,680
Speaker 1: where does this leave us? And is unity possible without clarity?

455
00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:21,040
Speaker 1: Can this go on like this?

456
00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:27,280
Speaker 4: Well, a lot remains to be seen. Illegally, consecrating a

457
00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:30,640
Speaker 4: bishop is not necessarily a sismatic act and canon law

458
00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:32,720
Speaker 4: it was declared to be such in the case of

459
00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:36,000
Speaker 4: Archbishop Lefevre because he was warned not to do that,

460
00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:39,440
Speaker 4: and he did it because we had a legal say

461
00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:43,120
Speaker 4: We had consecration of bishops in Czechoslovakia for instant during

462
00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:47,359
Speaker 4: the communist period without Roman authority. Those one aren't schismatic acts.

463
00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:51,840
Speaker 4: We have had the consecration of bishops in China without

464
00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:54,959
Speaker 4: the Holy See's permission right which they never declared to

465
00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:59,160
Speaker 4: be sismatic acts or even ex comit declared excommunications they

466
00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:05,200
Speaker 4: regularized post facto. So canonically it's complicated. The spirit of separatism,

467
00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:08,280
Speaker 4: though is clear if you go ahead in defiance of

468
00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:11,720
Speaker 4: canon law and the authority of the Holy See to

469
00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:16,080
Speaker 4: do something that is not foreseen as being authorized. So

470
00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:18,200
Speaker 4: that's why we do have time now between now in

471
00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:21,400
Speaker 4: July for negotiations. I hope an agreement can be made

472
00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:24,880
Speaker 4: because it is a shame. There are I believe, more

473
00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:27,639
Speaker 4: than six hundred priests in the Society of Saint Pius

474
00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:31,399
Speaker 4: the Tenth. They have many seminarians, there are, you know,

475
00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:34,199
Speaker 4: bringing many people to the sacraments and the like. We

476
00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:37,639
Speaker 4: want to promote Catholic unity, and I you know, I

477
00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:40,160
Speaker 4: think it can. An agreement can be arrived at, but

478
00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:43,200
Speaker 4: it has to have active interest on both sides to

479
00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:47,760
Speaker 4: identify and then to clarify issues that remain unresolved.

480
00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:49,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, you need that clarity.

481
00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:50,120
Speaker 3: I agree.

482
00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:54,160
Speaker 1: Let's move on to the ongoing Bashoe trial and other

483
00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:58,240
Speaker 1: financial scandals. Defense lawyers in the Vatican's Trial of the

484
00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:03,440
Speaker 1: Century argue that Pope Francis violated the fundamental rights of

485
00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:08,800
Speaker 1: their clients by issuing four secret directives. These four secret

486
00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:14,160
Speaker 1: executive decrees were basically signed between twenty nineteen twenty twenty

487
00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:17,760
Speaker 1: during the early days of the investigation, and they gave

488
00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:23,560
Speaker 1: Vatican prosecutors the enormous wide ranging powers, including unchecked use

489
00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:27,960
Speaker 1: of wiretapping, the right to deviate from existing laws. Legal

490
00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:30,760
Speaker 1: experts have said the secrecy of the laws and their

491
00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:34,560
Speaker 1: ad hoc nature violated a basic tenant of the right

492
00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:38,400
Speaker 1: to a fair trial, requiring the equality of arms between

493
00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:42,280
Speaker 1: defense and prosecution. Even Vatican legal officials have privately conceded

494
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:47,560
Speaker 1: that Francis' failure to publish those decrees was deeply problematic.

495
00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:50,680
Speaker 1: Father very quickly, as a cannonist, what's your take on

496
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:54,479
Speaker 1: what we've learned and why weren't these decrees? Why were

497
00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:55,840
Speaker 1: they secret in the first place?

498
00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:58,840
Speaker 4: Well, I'll say I'm a cannon lawyer. We're now talking

499
00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:01,680
Speaker 4: about Vatican cities state law, so it's secular law.

500
00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:02,320
Speaker 3: For the Vatican.

501
00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:05,360
Speaker 4: But remember the Vatican's monarchy. People don't like to use

502
00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:07,360
Speaker 4: that word, but it's a monarchy, and a monarch does

503
00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:10,920
Speaker 4: not have a legislature. A monarch is the legislator, so

504
00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:15,080
Speaker 4: he has the perfect right to legislate for himself and

505
00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:19,479
Speaker 4: to change the law. Now, i'd have to in canon law,

506
00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:22,240
Speaker 4: for insan, the law doesn't take effect until it's promulgated,

507
00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:27,320
Speaker 4: and promulgated basically means publication. If these decrees changing the

508
00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:30,320
Speaker 4: law were not published, we'd have to see if existing

509
00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:34,400
Speaker 4: Vatican City state law requires promulgation. But then you also

510
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:39,920
Speaker 4: have the twists that the pope can exempt himself you need, Yeah,

511
00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:43,880
Speaker 4: he has the right to exempt himself from publishing laws. Now,

512
00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:47,320
Speaker 4: as regards basic fairness, you could say, in a modern

513
00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:50,880
Speaker 4: justice system, once a trial has begun, you don't change

514
00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:55,000
Speaker 4: the rules under which it is conducted. On the other hand,

515
00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:58,840
Speaker 4: in a monarchy, the trial everybody knows that the monarch

516
00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:03,400
Speaker 4: has power and not bound by any previous rulings of

517
00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:06,720
Speaker 4: earlier popes or even what's written in the law. So

518
00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:10,080
Speaker 4: I could see the trial judges going either way on this.

519
00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:13,480
Speaker 4: Because of course justice is at the root of why

520
00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:16,720
Speaker 4: we have Vatican City state law and you have to

521
00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:19,600
Speaker 4: see was justice really violated or these sort of like

522
00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:22,440
Speaker 4: the procedureal get out of free card stuff that people

523
00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:26,040
Speaker 4: use and then hope they now get reprosecuted on the substance.

524
00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:30,080
Speaker 1: Bob Cardinal Beshu is on trial here. He was the

525
00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:33,719
Speaker 1: Sostituto at the State Department of State for the Vatican,

526
00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:37,160
Speaker 1: Vatican Secretary of State. But he's not alone in this mess.

527
00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:40,080
Speaker 1: How deep do you think this corruption goes? One of

528
00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:42,720
Speaker 1: these defense attorneys has argued that the whole trial should

529
00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:45,160
Speaker 1: be annulled because of those secret decrees alone.

530
00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:49,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, they're legal technicalities or other less. They're very complicated

531
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:51,760
Speaker 3: and you know who knows where that's going to come out.

532
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:54,800
Speaker 3: I mean, this has kind of declined, declined into a

533
00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:58,160
Speaker 3: comedy of errors. One of the prosecutors had to resign

534
00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:01,760
Speaker 3: because he mishandled some early procedure.

535
00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:02,280
Speaker 1: Yeah.

536
00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:05,000
Speaker 3: One of the judges recently has said that they don't

537
00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:09,080
Speaker 3: want the prosecutors to mention Francis's name any longer because

538
00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:12,200
Speaker 3: they're starting to get embarrassing. Now it goes pretty deep.

539
00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:14,400
Speaker 3: I mean, there were eight other people who were indicted.

540
00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:16,840
Speaker 3: I think several of them have been found guilty and

541
00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:21,719
Speaker 3: had penalties imposed. On the secular side, we forget about this.

542
00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:26,640
Speaker 3: But Becher's brother, who runs I think a church charity

543
00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:30,600
Speaker 3: up in Sardinia, is being pursued by the carabinierity because

544
00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:33,760
Speaker 3: apparently there was some you know, misuse of funds that

545
00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:37,440
Speaker 3: bet you directed up to him. And so I mean,

546
00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:39,640
Speaker 3: I'm speaking from the outside, and we want the due

547
00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:43,120
Speaker 3: process to go ahead. But whatever that due process is,

548
00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:45,280
Speaker 3: it looks like he's guilty, and it looks like the

549
00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:48,400
Speaker 3: Pope did these things so that he wouldn't escape prosecution.

550
00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:51,320
Speaker 3: But it looks very, very bad because on the one hand,

551
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:54,240
Speaker 3: the Vatican wants to present itself as being modern and

552
00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:56,040
Speaker 3: up to date. I mean, they even use the term,

553
00:32:56,280 --> 00:32:59,480
Speaker 3: the prosecutors use the term that God given rights of

554
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:01,920
Speaker 3: the people who been accused to get a fair trial.

555
00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:04,000
Speaker 3: And then on the other hand, you've got this kind

556
00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:08,240
Speaker 3: of you know, this non hereditary monarchy question in the

557
00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:12,040
Speaker 3: background that it confuses everything. And all I can say is,

558
00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:16,440
Speaker 3: I don't think this whole process has brought any glory

559
00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:17,080
Speaker 3: to anyone.

560
00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:19,640
Speaker 1: No, it's a mess. And the fact that it's gone

561
00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:23,440
Speaker 1: on this long, years and years Pope Leo has moved

562
00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:27,200
Speaker 1: back by the way into the Apostolic Palace, that's the

563
00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:30,280
Speaker 1: old palace just outside of Saint Peter's Square, where the

564
00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:34,520
Speaker 1: pope traditionally lived. Unlike Pope Francis, who famously stayed at

565
00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:37,480
Speaker 1: the Doma Santa Marta, the hotel where the cardinals stayed

566
00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:40,400
Speaker 1: during conclave, this time the Leo will move into a

567
00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:46,120
Speaker 1: converted suite above the traditional papal apartment which John Paul

568
00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:50,040
Speaker 1: the Second and Benedicta sixteenth really Pope since eighteen seventy

569
00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:53,320
Speaker 1: have lived there. His new abode was created from former

570
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:57,440
Speaker 1: staff and guest quarters and apparently includes a small chapel

571
00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:01,440
Speaker 1: in a workout area. Father, what's the significance of this?

572
00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:04,360
Speaker 1: Is this a signal about the kind of papacy that

573
00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:05,720
Speaker 1: Leo intends to return to.

574
00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:08,520
Speaker 4: Well, I'm glad he's going back to the Apostolic Palace

575
00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:10,719
Speaker 4: because that's the home of the popes. Yes, since the

576
00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:14,400
Speaker 4: exactly the popes, uh you know, took refuge in Vatican

577
00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:19,080
Speaker 4: City after the fall of the papal states, I think

578
00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:21,160
Speaker 4: it's a sign that the pope this also has a

579
00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:23,799
Speaker 4: terrorist I'm told so, I think this is a sign

580
00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:27,359
Speaker 4: that the Pope, since he likes exercise, likes being outdoors.

581
00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:30,319
Speaker 4: It's a it's more, it's a better Let's say it's

582
00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:32,600
Speaker 4: a better apartment in the same building, you know, which

583
00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:33,879
Speaker 4: is pretty common in New York.

584
00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:35,440
Speaker 3: People do that.

585
00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:38,840
Speaker 4: And I would say renovations need to be done in

586
00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:41,240
Speaker 4: either place, So doing it in that section is good.

587
00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:41,640
Speaker 3: Now.

588
00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:44,360
Speaker 4: The problem, of course, is left to descend one floor

589
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:47,080
Speaker 4: down to go to the window on Sundays because the

590
00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:50,879
Speaker 4: papal apartments are where he gives his angelus and address from.

591
00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:54,240
Speaker 4: But that's no problem. Yeah, maybe those apartments, the rooms

592
00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:56,480
Speaker 4: on that level can be used by his secretaries.

593
00:34:57,000 --> 00:34:58,920
Speaker 1: Now he can get his steps in going down to

594
00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:03,760
Speaker 1: the to the angelis Bob. I read somewhere that because

595
00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:06,440
Speaker 1: of the abandonment, if you will, for twelve years by

596
00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:10,640
Speaker 1: Pope Francis and other age issues, that the whole place

597
00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:14,120
Speaker 1: was in collapse, the papal apartments. They had to totally

598
00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:17,040
Speaker 1: redo the wiring and the drainage system, so there was

599
00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:18,680
Speaker 1: a lot of work that needed to be done. Is

600
00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:21,160
Speaker 1: this a return to normalcy? Is that the queue here?

601
00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:25,080
Speaker 3: I think it is, But it's a new normal. As

602
00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:26,880
Speaker 3: you know, I wrote a book about the Swiss Guards

603
00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:30,120
Speaker 3: when it was a five hundredth anniversary about twenty years ago,

604
00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:33,360
Speaker 3: and one of the things that happened after Benedict was

605
00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:36,000
Speaker 3: elected was he was living on the ground floor over

606
00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:39,480
Speaker 3: at Casa Santa Marta, and the Swiss guards wanted him

607
00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:42,719
Speaker 3: up higher because they couldn't guarantee his security on the

608
00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:45,080
Speaker 3: ground floor. One of the things that seems to be

609
00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:49,440
Speaker 3: coming out in the press and particularly in Italy is

610
00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:52,200
Speaker 3: that moving him away from that front window is also

611
00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:56,160
Speaker 3: a security question. Now, those apartments up there, as we know,

612
00:35:56,280 --> 00:35:59,680
Speaker 3: the three of us know, they're pretty spartan. Anyway. People

613
00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:01,759
Speaker 3: think it's you know, it's a palace and you see

614
00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:04,920
Speaker 3: that grand staircase when you go up, and that is impressive,

615
00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:07,680
Speaker 3: but when you get up to the living quarters, they're

616
00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:10,960
Speaker 3: very simple. And he's even gone up to a probably

617
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:13,799
Speaker 3: a smaller and a simpler level up there. But it's

618
00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:18,120
Speaker 3: good that I think he's showing. We have been hearing

619
00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:20,600
Speaker 3: that they probably also have to make sure that there's

620
00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:24,400
Speaker 3: no electronic surveillance, so he's going to be that's going

621
00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:26,879
Speaker 3: to be an important point as well. But it's good

622
00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:28,839
Speaker 3: that he's up there. It's good that he's I mean

623
00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:31,520
Speaker 3: he's kind of showing that he's more active American type

624
00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:33,680
Speaker 3: of guy. I remember when John Paul the Second I

625
00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:36,840
Speaker 3: was living in Italy. When John Paul's acond was was elected,

626
00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:40,040
Speaker 3: people criticized him because he had the Vatican swimming pool

627
00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:43,320
Speaker 3: being redone and that was the year of three popes.

628
00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:46,800
Speaker 3: And he said, well, it's less expensive than having another

629
00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:53,560
Speaker 3: conflict in good shape. Let him be in good spirits

630
00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:55,680
Speaker 3: and maybe all that will do good for the church

631
00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:56,000
Speaker 3: as well.

632
00:36:56,080 --> 00:36:58,880
Speaker 1: Yell, okay, now we have to return to the United States.

633
00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:02,799
Speaker 1: Father Cardinal Blaze Zupich, your favorite is growing in influence

634
00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:06,000
Speaker 1: in shaping the American Church. According to a recent article

635
00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:09,279
Speaker 1: in the National Catholic Register, Jonathan Leedle has called it

636
00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:15,120
Speaker 1: Cardinal Supach's ever expanding coaching tree, meaning Supach's proteges and

637
00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:17,960
Speaker 1: allies seem to be spreading out across key dioceses in

638
00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:21,400
Speaker 1: the United States. Archbishop Ronald Hicks will be installed as

639
00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:23,960
Speaker 1: Archbishop of New York on February sixth, for example. But

640
00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:28,120
Speaker 1: they mentioned several others. We're seeing bishops elevated who share

641
00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:33,359
Speaker 1: a wider vision, may be more progressive and socially engaged.

642
00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:37,640
Speaker 1: How extensive do you think this network is Should Orthodox

643
00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:39,919
Speaker 1: and traditional Catholics be concerned?

644
00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:43,840
Speaker 4: Well, this is a natural phenomenon in the United States.

645
00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:46,960
Speaker 4: It goes back to Cardinal Spellman, where he appointed so

646
00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:49,920
Speaker 4: many priests and bishops auxiliary bits from New York to

647
00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:53,080
Speaker 4: other dioceses, meaning he proposed in the pious the twelve

648
00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:57,080
Speaker 4: who did that similarly, you know, Cardinal Rigali, Cardinal Hickey,

649
00:37:57,160 --> 00:38:02,319
Speaker 4: they had a similar influenced cardinal law likewise, so cardinals

650
00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:05,920
Speaker 4: do tend to have an outsized role. And then in

651
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:09,000
Speaker 4: the case of Cardinal Supik, who is who was rather

652
00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:13,239
Speaker 4: a very close friend and associated Poe Francis Poet Francis

653
00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:16,759
Speaker 4: put him on the Congregation now Dicastri for bishops, so

654
00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:20,800
Speaker 4: he has a seat at the table literally discussing American appointments.

655
00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:23,960
Speaker 4: So yes, he's appointed many men from his diocese all

656
00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:27,880
Speaker 4: over the country, including mal my new archbishop. So it

657
00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:30,560
Speaker 4: remains to be seen how many of them have the

658
00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:36,880
Speaker 4: same mindset and reactions to to public issues. Because you know,

659
00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:39,360
Speaker 4: it's the proof is in the pudding. Each man is

660
00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:42,240
Speaker 4: an independent thinker. We'll see where they, you know, steer

661
00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:43,200
Speaker 4: their dians.

662
00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:45,919
Speaker 1: I think that's the mistake of casting it this way,

663
00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:48,040
Speaker 1: you know, it's that it's that it's in this case

664
00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:52,520
Speaker 1: Cardinal Supic's coaching tree. In the case of Archbishop Hicks,

665
00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:56,080
Speaker 1: he was very close to Cardinal Francis George. So we

666
00:38:56,200 --> 00:38:59,640
Speaker 1: don't we don't quite know. I worry about broad painting

667
00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:04,680
Speaker 1: these men, Bob. I mean, Superage obviously has some influence,

668
00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:08,960
Speaker 1: but my question is what are the real world implications

669
00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:10,920
Speaker 1: despite a shared place of origin.

670
00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:14,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think we don't want to overdraw the connections.

671
00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:17,600
Speaker 3: They're there and they're important. I mean, one of the

672
00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:20,680
Speaker 3: things that I think is quite significant is that Pope

673
00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:25,000
Speaker 3: Leo at one point talked about problems within the bishop's conference,

674
00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:28,319
Speaker 3: and I think that he was with Cardinal Supage when

675
00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:30,120
Speaker 3: he was talking about that, and it had to do

676
00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:33,160
Speaker 3: with what, sometimes, at least to some of us, appears

677
00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:36,960
Speaker 3: to be the tension that exists between the large majority

678
00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:38,600
Speaker 3: of the bishops who tend to be kind of John

679
00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:41,960
Speaker 3: Paul too Benedict bishops and the more recent appointments of

680
00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:45,240
Speaker 3: Pope Francis, which are about maybe fifteen to twenty percent

681
00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:49,279
Speaker 3: of the bishops. So you know, there's that element as

682
00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:53,839
Speaker 3: well that one worries about a bit here, and we

683
00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:56,520
Speaker 3: want Leo to have a good idea of what our

684
00:39:56,560 --> 00:39:59,000
Speaker 3: bishops are up to. I hope that he's trying to

685
00:39:59,080 --> 00:40:02,440
Speaker 3: learn more about that and get more input on these voices.

686
00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:07,120
Speaker 3: We have an appointment of a new nuncio from Rome

687
00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:12,680
Speaker 3: to the United States coming up soon, and the outgoing nuncio,

688
00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:17,440
Speaker 3: Christopher Pierre, that his most recent address to the US

689
00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:21,040
Speaker 3: bishops back in November talked a lot about Francis, but

690
00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:25,920
Speaker 3: the view of Francis of cinidality, of a kind of

691
00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:31,279
Speaker 3: forward looking from Vatican two and about the current Pope.

692
00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:34,200
Speaker 3: Leo wanted to continue along that line. So I think

693
00:40:34,239 --> 00:40:37,359
Speaker 3: that's a message from Rome. We'll see if the appointment

694
00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:41,120
Speaker 3: of the nuncio, who is very important in terms of

695
00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:44,040
Speaker 3: new bishops here, whether that's going to be an element

696
00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:44,960
Speaker 3: and all of this as well.

697
00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:47,759
Speaker 1: Bob, you are like a magical segue for me. I

698
00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:50,160
Speaker 1: didn't even really have to introduce the next topic because

699
00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:55,080
Speaker 1: we're hearing rumors about Cardinal Christophe Pierre, now eighty years old,

700
00:40:55,120 --> 00:40:58,520
Speaker 1: will be replaced as papal nuncio here in the United States.

701
00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:02,279
Speaker 1: Papal nuncio is the Pope's delegate, a representative here in

702
00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:08,120
Speaker 1: the United States. Current Vaticans Sostituto Archbishop edgar Pena Patta,

703
00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:11,360
Speaker 1: as well as the Vatican's current delegate to the UN

704
00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:16,600
Speaker 1: Gabriel Giordano Chaccia, both have been mentioned as possibilities. Father,

705
00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:20,319
Speaker 1: how important is the position of the papal nuncio and

706
00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:23,680
Speaker 1: talk to us about the influence he has well.

707
00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:26,640
Speaker 4: As an American, I'll say it's very important, but even

708
00:41:26,719 --> 00:41:29,560
Speaker 4: just as a Catholic in the world, whatever happens in the.

709
00:41:29,520 --> 00:41:30,840
Speaker 3: US is very important.

710
00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:35,680
Speaker 4: And yet Cardinal Pierre stayed on between seventy five and

711
00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:38,880
Speaker 4: eighty because he was a close associate of Pope Francis.

712
00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:42,400
Speaker 4: He helped to implement Pope francis his worldview and his

713
00:41:42,520 --> 00:41:47,399
Speaker 4: nomination of bishops. The replacement, of course, is unknown at

714
00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:49,839
Speaker 4: the moment, but I think it will be coming soon.

715
00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:53,400
Speaker 4: I personally know Archbishop Kaccia because he is the current

716
00:41:54,239 --> 00:41:58,120
Speaker 4: representative of the Holy See at the United Nations in

717
00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:00,560
Speaker 4: New York, and I've gotten to know him over his

718
00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:02,560
Speaker 4: five years here in New York. I think he'd be

719
00:42:02,600 --> 00:42:06,280
Speaker 4: a wonderful choice. I hope pub Leo names him because

720
00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:08,840
Speaker 4: not just because I know him, because I know what

721
00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:10,839
Speaker 4: kind of a man he is. He's a very good man.

722
00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:14,120
Speaker 4: He's thoughtful and a good listener. So there are probably

723
00:42:14,120 --> 00:42:16,640
Speaker 4: a lot of other candidates out there, but it is

724
00:42:16,680 --> 00:42:19,880
Speaker 4: a key and important role because like it or not,

725
00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:25,120
Speaker 4: the American Church has a tremendous influence throughout the world,

726
00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:28,600
Speaker 4: and therefore the direction the hierarchy goes, we'll have a

727
00:42:28,680 --> 00:42:32,440
Speaker 4: lot of influence on the future of Catholicism so many places.

728
00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:37,640
Speaker 1: And Bob, his father alludes to the nuncio really vets

729
00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:43,279
Speaker 1: and screens candidates for dioceses to run the bishops all

730
00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:45,520
Speaker 1: over the United States. They are the ones that vet

731
00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:48,360
Speaker 1: these candidates and then submit them to Rome. Bob, what

732
00:42:48,360 --> 00:42:52,800
Speaker 1: do you think of these two candidates, Kacia and Pina Patta.

733
00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:55,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think Kochia would be a good guy too. Obviously,

734
00:42:56,040 --> 00:42:59,560
Speaker 3: he's had a pretty successful run at the un I

735
00:42:59,560 --> 00:43:03,839
Speaker 3: think for Pena Patta there is a hindrance, unfortunately from

736
00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:05,759
Speaker 3: his point of view, in the fact that he's a Venezuelan,

737
00:43:06,239 --> 00:43:09,759
Speaker 3: because clearly the next Nuncio here is going to be

738
00:43:10,040 --> 00:43:12,080
Speaker 3: placed in a position where he's going to have to

739
00:43:12,120 --> 00:43:15,240
Speaker 3: negotiate between the American government, which right now means Donald

740
00:43:15,280 --> 00:43:22,400
Speaker 3: Trump and the Vatican and because of the situation in Venezuela.

741
00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:25,680
Speaker 3: I mean, we now have the former I think illegitimate president.

742
00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:29,440
Speaker 3: I think he lost his last election. President Madulo is

743
00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:32,000
Speaker 3: now in prison in New York. I think it would

744
00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:34,040
Speaker 3: be very hard to have a Venezuelan come in while

745
00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:38,040
Speaker 3: this administration has got plans for Venezuela. And I think,

746
00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:41,040
Speaker 3: you know, it might be that it's good in that

747
00:43:41,080 --> 00:43:43,920
Speaker 3: he would know the Venezuelan situation. But I would be

748
00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:47,359
Speaker 3: very surprised that the Vatican put a Venezuelan in New

749
00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:51,960
Speaker 3: York in Washington at this point, given the administration that

750
00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:54,080
Speaker 3: we have. But look, there are other lots of other

751
00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:56,160
Speaker 3: people who are very good. I mean that people who

752
00:43:56,160 --> 00:43:59,799
Speaker 3: have served in the Vatican Diplomatic Corps and you know,

753
00:43:59,840 --> 00:44:01,960
Speaker 3: have a various strengths, and I think Leo is going

754
00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:04,319
Speaker 3: to want to have somebody who's a fairly strong and

755
00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:07,759
Speaker 3: reliable voice that he can lean on here and here

756
00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:10,319
Speaker 3: is that would be an interesting thing to see.

757
00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:12,120
Speaker 1: Well, I got to get this in before we run

758
00:44:12,120 --> 00:44:14,480
Speaker 1: out of time. The US Department of Justice has announced

759
00:44:14,480 --> 00:44:18,480
Speaker 1: an investigation into the vandalism of a Catholic church in

760
00:44:18,520 --> 00:44:22,520
Speaker 1: Long Beach, California. Holy innocence Catholic Church. It was targeted

761
00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:24,960
Speaker 1: this thing. It was horrible, a major act of vandalism.

762
00:44:25,480 --> 00:44:28,279
Speaker 1: They've headed a statue of the Virgin Mary, as you

763
00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:32,000
Speaker 1: can see from the photo. Assistant Attorney General for Civil

764
00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:35,880
Speaker 1: Rights Harmy Dillon set on X the Department of Justice's

765
00:44:35,880 --> 00:44:40,080
Speaker 1: Civil Rights Division will open an investigation into the awful crime.

766
00:44:40,280 --> 00:44:44,320
Speaker 1: End quote. Father. We've seen dozens of churches vandalized the statues.

767
00:44:44,320 --> 00:44:48,080
Speaker 1: We had Tabernacle's pride open and desecrated as they attempted here,

768
00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:52,640
Speaker 1: and yet this is one of the first serious federal investigations.

769
00:44:53,040 --> 00:44:56,680
Speaker 1: Your thoughts on this uptick in anti Christian anti Catholic

770
00:44:56,760 --> 00:45:00,120
Speaker 1: violence and vandalism. What's causing this, Well.

771
00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:02,799
Speaker 4: We don't really know until the investigation tells us. But

772
00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:07,239
Speaker 4: I can say that in a general sense, anti religious,

773
00:45:07,280 --> 00:45:13,359
Speaker 4: anti Catholic violence, meaning attacking buildings spray painting them. That

774
00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:17,040
Speaker 4: was often identified with pro abortion movement because of the

775
00:45:17,040 --> 00:45:20,359
Speaker 4: Catholic Church's support of the anti abortion movement. But we

776
00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:23,760
Speaker 4: also have superstitious people who do these kind of acts

777
00:45:24,560 --> 00:45:28,759
Speaker 4: hostility based on that. There's some mental illness issues too.

778
00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:31,279
Speaker 4: We have that problem in New York City where the

779
00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:34,480
Speaker 4: homeless go in and break statues and the like. So

780
00:45:34,520 --> 00:45:37,680
Speaker 4: we really don't know. But in a society where religion

781
00:45:37,760 --> 00:45:41,280
Speaker 4: is devalued in so many ways, which is a sad

782
00:45:41,360 --> 00:45:44,879
Speaker 4: story here in the US right now, attacks like this

783
00:45:45,080 --> 00:45:49,239
Speaker 4: need to be vigorously prosecuted by the government because we

784
00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:53,560
Speaker 4: have to uphold the constitution. The constitutional order is what

785
00:45:53,760 --> 00:45:57,520
Speaker 4: keeps this society just and in place, and if we

786
00:45:57,640 --> 00:46:02,160
Speaker 4: don't prosecute anti religion hatreds and things of this sort,

787
00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:04,600
Speaker 4: then we're slipping into a chaotic situation.

788
00:46:05,640 --> 00:46:07,960
Speaker 1: Bob, do you think this signals a shift in the

789
00:46:08,000 --> 00:46:11,120
Speaker 1: government and the way it's treating this violence. I mean,

790
00:46:11,160 --> 00:46:13,480
Speaker 1: this has been going on for a long time, and

791
00:46:13,880 --> 00:46:16,600
Speaker 1: I know the FBI has looked into some of these cases,

792
00:46:17,120 --> 00:46:18,719
Speaker 1: but what do you see here?

793
00:46:19,320 --> 00:46:23,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think this particular particular administration, of course, has

794
00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:25,600
Speaker 3: made it clear that it's going to be much more

795
00:46:25,680 --> 00:46:29,440
Speaker 3: forceful in defending Christians in this country than it has

796
00:46:29,480 --> 00:46:32,520
Speaker 3: been true in the past. This particular attack is a

797
00:46:32,640 --> 00:46:36,239
Speaker 3: very strange and beheading the Virgin Actually, when I saw this,

798
00:46:36,480 --> 00:46:38,400
Speaker 3: I was thinking, you know, there's this movement down in

799
00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:42,560
Speaker 3: Mexico called Santa Muerte. Yeah, we've actually originated in Los Angeles.

800
00:46:43,239 --> 00:46:45,799
Speaker 3: It's not clearly the genesis of this, but it's sort

801
00:46:45,840 --> 00:46:48,799
Speaker 3: of a Satanic version of Our Lady and the fact

802
00:46:48,840 --> 00:46:51,400
Speaker 3: that they attacked the statue of Our Lady, I mean,

803
00:46:51,440 --> 00:46:55,560
Speaker 3: the desecration of the tabernacle. We can you know, we're

804
00:46:55,600 --> 00:46:57,960
Speaker 3: kind of familiar with that. But this is happening in

805
00:46:58,000 --> 00:46:59,920
Speaker 3: a lot of places. The bishops are bishops in the

806
00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:02,600
Speaker 3: United States had a survey done and I think since

807
00:47:02,640 --> 00:47:05,359
Speaker 3: twenty twenty, it's only five six years, there have been

808
00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:09,040
Speaker 3: five hundred cases like this. So this is not a rarity.

809
00:47:09,120 --> 00:47:11,440
Speaker 3: This happens all over the country and it happens with

810
00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:15,200
Speaker 3: fairly regularly. It also happens in Europe. By the way,

811
00:47:15,239 --> 00:47:17,640
Speaker 3: there is a lot that has been studying this and

812
00:47:17,920 --> 00:47:20,560
Speaker 3: they have like a last year, like a thousand anti

813
00:47:20,640 --> 00:47:25,200
Speaker 3: Christian hate crimes using the criteria of the European Union itself,

814
00:47:25,239 --> 00:47:29,600
Speaker 3: so hate crimes, a thousand of them. You know, it's Muslims,

815
00:47:29,719 --> 00:47:33,279
Speaker 3: it's anti Christians, it's pro boards, it's crazy people. As

816
00:47:33,320 --> 00:47:37,399
Speaker 3: for others says, but there's something weird going on. It's

817
00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:39,960
Speaker 3: on the uptick, and it's on the uptick in a

818
00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:40,880
Speaker 3: lot of places.

819
00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:44,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, I look at it when you see the ferocity

820
00:47:44,440 --> 00:47:47,359
Speaker 1: of it. It's clearly an explosion of the demonic. I mean,

821
00:47:47,640 --> 00:47:50,680
Speaker 1: that's a piece of it driving it, because otherwise you

822
00:47:50,680 --> 00:47:54,439
Speaker 1: wouldn't attack the sacred it's not doing anything. It's in

823
00:47:54,480 --> 00:47:56,799
Speaker 1: a church for the most part, or a statue in

824
00:47:56,800 --> 00:47:58,600
Speaker 1: the garden. I mean, we even saw it here in

825
00:47:58,600 --> 00:48:01,840
Speaker 1: New Orleans. We had a perish that the outdoors, they

826
00:48:01,920 --> 00:48:05,879
Speaker 1: knocked over the statues, They stole a statue. So there's

827
00:48:05,920 --> 00:48:10,279
Speaker 1: something going on where people have this compelling interest to

828
00:48:10,360 --> 00:48:14,319
Speaker 1: go and destroy or desecrate these holy images, these holy

829
00:48:14,360 --> 00:48:16,479
Speaker 1: sacred places. Father will give you the last word.

830
00:48:17,040 --> 00:48:19,479
Speaker 4: Yeah, now you're hit on something very important here, which

831
00:48:19,520 --> 00:48:22,719
Speaker 4: is that the devil exists, and he hates God, he

832
00:48:22,840 --> 00:48:28,120
Speaker 4: hates religion, he hates religious people and religious symbols. Yeah,

833
00:48:28,160 --> 00:48:32,359
Speaker 4: the demon tries to destroy peace and society. And one

834
00:48:32,400 --> 00:48:35,920
Speaker 4: way you do that is by mocking religion and convincing

835
00:48:35,960 --> 00:48:38,719
Speaker 4: people to go ahead and do these things. So the antidote,

836
00:48:38,719 --> 00:48:41,120
Speaker 4: of course, is the power of the Cross. And we

837
00:48:41,239 --> 00:48:44,400
Speaker 4: believe in Jesus Christ as King of the universe and

838
00:48:44,480 --> 00:48:47,759
Speaker 4: infidelity to him will do acts of reparation when these

839
00:48:47,840 --> 00:48:50,960
Speaker 4: things happen, and then we'll continue to encourage people to

840
00:48:51,040 --> 00:48:55,560
Speaker 4: pray and create a society in which people don't view

841
00:48:55,600 --> 00:48:57,480
Speaker 4: this kind of activity as acceptable.

842
00:48:58,280 --> 00:49:00,759
Speaker 1: Gentlemen, Grateful to you. All is all. If you want

843
00:49:00,760 --> 00:49:03,680
Speaker 1: more of the Arroyo Grande Prayerful Posse, subscribe to the

844
00:49:03,719 --> 00:49:07,440
Speaker 1: Arroyo Grande channel at YouTube, or you can follow the

845
00:49:07,560 --> 00:49:10,480
Speaker 1: Arroyo Grande podcast wherever you get yours on haff of

846
00:49:10,560 --> 00:49:13,640
Speaker 1: Robert Royal and Father Gerald Murray. Until the Posse rides again,

847
00:49:13,840 --> 00:49:16,960
Speaker 1: Stay the course, follow the light. I'm Raymond Arroyo. We'll

848
00:49:17,000 --> 00:49:20,719
Speaker 1: see you next time. Arroyo Grande is produced in partnership

849
00:49:20,719 --> 00:49:24,680
Speaker 1: with iHeart Podcast and DP Studios, and is available on

850
00:49:24,719 --> 00:49:32,560
Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio, Apple wherever you get your podcast