1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:05,920 Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff to blow your mind. From how stuff 2 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:16,480 Speaker 1: works dot com. Mind itself, this clear, void, all knowing, 3 00:00:16,640 --> 00:00:22,320 Speaker 1: all aware. It is like sky, primal clarity, voidness, indivisible 4 00:00:22,840 --> 00:00:27,120 Speaker 1: in the clarity of original intuitive wisdom. Just that determination 5 00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:31,200 Speaker 1: is reality. The reason is that all appearance and existence 6 00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:34,919 Speaker 1: is known as your own mind, and this mind itself 7 00:00:35,040 --> 00:00:43,360 Speaker 1: is realized space like in its intelligence and clarity. Hey, 8 00:00:43,479 --> 00:00:45,080 Speaker 1: welcome to stuff to blow your mind. My name is 9 00:00:45,159 --> 00:00:49,479 Speaker 1: Robert Lamb and my name is Christian Sager. I am 10 00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:52,760 Speaker 1: I have a terrible memory. I'm gonna I'm gonna confess 11 00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:55,360 Speaker 1: something here. Okay, I don't know about you, and you 12 00:00:55,400 --> 00:00:57,440 Speaker 1: don't need to admit to this if you don't want to. 13 00:00:57,520 --> 00:01:01,320 Speaker 1: But when we after we record episodes, you know, we 14 00:01:01,400 --> 00:01:04,840 Speaker 1: build them a lot of research. We record episodes, A 15 00:01:04,920 --> 00:01:08,319 Speaker 1: lot of it just goes right out of my head. Um. 16 00:01:08,360 --> 00:01:11,880 Speaker 1: I retain the basics and the of the knowledge and 17 00:01:11,920 --> 00:01:16,039 Speaker 1: the ideas that we convey, but the very fine details 18 00:01:16,080 --> 00:01:20,880 Speaker 1: like names or locations of things I lose almost immediately. 19 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:23,479 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I'm I'm I'm very similar in that regard 20 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:25,560 Speaker 1: off and tell people that I have approximate knowledge of 21 00:01:25,560 --> 00:01:28,720 Speaker 1: all things because they cover so many topics. I do 22 00:01:28,800 --> 00:01:31,280 Speaker 1: not retain all the details. I certainly don't retain the numbers, 23 00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:36,959 Speaker 1: but I retain the basic essence. So yeah, we discussed yeah, um, 24 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:41,040 Speaker 1: but today's episode is about a topic, or it's tying 25 00:01:41,080 --> 00:01:43,679 Speaker 1: two topics together that I think could help us with 26 00:01:43,720 --> 00:01:46,440 Speaker 1: that if we if we really wanted to write. Although 27 00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:50,080 Speaker 1: I'm now starting to think of the podcast as being 28 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:53,360 Speaker 1: sort of a portable memory unit as well. Yeah, or 29 00:01:53,400 --> 00:01:56,560 Speaker 1: even a mandola exactly one of the topics here today. 30 00:01:56,560 --> 00:01:58,400 Speaker 1: And that's why the quote at the top of the 31 00:01:58,440 --> 00:02:01,680 Speaker 1: episode here was m the Tibetan Book of the Dead, 32 00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:05,400 Speaker 1: because though in order to unpack the idea of the mind, 33 00:02:05,440 --> 00:02:09,040 Speaker 1: although we have to discuss Tibetan Buddhism a little bit, 34 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:12,160 Speaker 1: and and in doing that discuss Buddhism a little bit. 35 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:14,680 Speaker 1: But from there, don't worry, we're gonna get into the 36 00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:19,560 Speaker 1: idea of the memory palace in uh Western and modern traditions, 37 00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:21,800 Speaker 1: as well as a little bit into the idea of 38 00:02:21,919 --> 00:02:25,720 Speaker 1: virtual worlds. Now, in putting this together, we look to 39 00:02:25,720 --> 00:02:28,680 Speaker 1: a number of different sources. One source that I particularly 40 00:02:28,760 --> 00:02:32,840 Speaker 1: enjoyed was Robert E. Fisher's Art of Tibet because Ultimately, 41 00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:36,680 Speaker 1: we're dealing with with an artistic tradition here, and it's 42 00:02:36,720 --> 00:02:39,480 Speaker 1: great to have some wonderful images to look at while 43 00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:41,600 Speaker 1: you're learning about it. So if you're if you want 44 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:45,080 Speaker 1: to learn more about Tibetan art in general, uh, this 45 00:02:45,160 --> 00:02:47,560 Speaker 1: is worth picking up. You can find this online or 46 00:02:47,639 --> 00:02:50,799 Speaker 1: certainly at various museum stores. Yeah, I mean, I would 47 00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:52,959 Speaker 1: recommend to, like, if you're listening to this and you've 48 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:57,160 Speaker 1: never seen a mandala before in in it's intriguing you, like, 49 00:02:57,280 --> 00:03:00,680 Speaker 1: go image search for them because they there's a lot 50 00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:04,040 Speaker 1: of variety first of all, but also just they're stunning. 51 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:08,280 Speaker 1: There's and this is across there's so many different styles 52 00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:09,680 Speaker 1: of them too. That's one of the things we're going 53 00:03:09,720 --> 00:03:12,240 Speaker 1: to find out. Yeah, and we'll describe them in greater 54 00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:15,359 Speaker 1: detail later. But essentially, if you don't have one in 55 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:17,000 Speaker 1: front of you right now, if you're not looking at 56 00:03:17,040 --> 00:03:20,560 Speaker 1: our our home page, then the mandola are are these 57 00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:24,760 Speaker 1: various Tibetan pieces, and they're also mandelas outside of Tibetan tradition, 58 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:28,040 Speaker 1: where you have a figure at the center usually and 59 00:03:28,040 --> 00:03:31,840 Speaker 1: that figure is often a either a Buddha, buddhistattva or 60 00:03:31,880 --> 00:03:34,639 Speaker 1: a or a god or a goddess, and then there's 61 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:38,800 Speaker 1: there's like concentric circles and they and even squares around them. 62 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:41,800 Speaker 1: There's a lot of activity, their additional deities and figures 63 00:03:42,600 --> 00:03:48,120 Speaker 1: all just sort of flowing out from the central entity. Yeah. Yeah, 64 00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:51,640 Speaker 1: I mean I up until really, when you propose that 65 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:54,360 Speaker 1: we do this episode, was familiar with them as sort 66 00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:58,040 Speaker 1: of just like the aesthetic trappings of Tibet or India, 67 00:03:58,920 --> 00:04:01,480 Speaker 1: especially from you know, my growing up overseas. I would 68 00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:04,440 Speaker 1: see stuff like this in Singapore occasionally, but like I 69 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:13,200 Speaker 1: never realized how culturally and almost pneumonically important that they are. Yeah. 70 00:04:13,440 --> 00:04:15,880 Speaker 1: They I think I started learning about them in greater 71 00:04:15,920 --> 00:04:19,320 Speaker 1: detail a few years back when Emory University here in Atlanta, 72 00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:22,400 Speaker 1: they at least in the past, have always done Tibet 73 00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:25,240 Speaker 1: Week and they'll have some actual Tibetan monks come in 74 00:04:25,320 --> 00:04:28,560 Speaker 1: and make mandolas out of sand, out of colored sand, 75 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:32,960 Speaker 1: which is this, you know, fabulous, you know, quintessentially Buddhist 76 00:04:33,040 --> 00:04:35,720 Speaker 1: practice of creating these wonderful works about art out of 77 00:04:35,880 --> 00:04:38,440 Speaker 1: individual pieces of sand and then you just destroy it 78 00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:40,200 Speaker 1: at the end. Yeah. I have some notes about that 79 00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:43,640 Speaker 1: that will go over later. The process is fascinating. All right, 80 00:04:43,720 --> 00:04:46,760 Speaker 1: So let's let's talk for just a minute about Buddhism 81 00:04:46,839 --> 00:04:50,920 Speaker 1: and the and the Tibetan version of Buddhism. So as ROBERTI. 82 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:53,840 Speaker 1: Fisher explains in the Art of Tibet uh and and 83 00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:56,760 Speaker 1: this is also something that's come up in previous research 84 00:04:56,960 --> 00:04:59,120 Speaker 1: for me. I did a bit on sky burial for 85 00:04:59,320 --> 00:05:02,040 Speaker 1: House to Work few years ago and got to dive 86 00:05:02,120 --> 00:05:07,680 Speaker 1: into Tibetan history and Tibetan culture a little bit. Have 87 00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:09,880 Speaker 1: we have has stuffed abul your mind on the sky 88 00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:12,320 Speaker 1: burial episode, I don't know that we have. I feel 89 00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:15,560 Speaker 1: like Joe has also done research on that. Separate from this, Yeah, 90 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:18,680 Speaker 1: it would be something worth it, uh tackling. There was 91 00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:21,320 Speaker 1: a recent War and Ellis comic that was all about 92 00:05:21,360 --> 00:05:23,760 Speaker 1: sky barrel. Yeah. I mean it's a fact. Just to 93 00:05:24,040 --> 00:05:27,719 Speaker 1: explain what we're talking about. It's an exposure burial where 94 00:05:28,160 --> 00:05:30,000 Speaker 1: one takes the body of the disease. There are a 95 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:33,039 Speaker 1: few different burial practices Intobet, but this one is the 96 00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:39,520 Speaker 1: more famous because, especially to outsiders, it seems mccab that 97 00:05:39,640 --> 00:05:41,880 Speaker 1: they take the body, they break it down into pieces, 98 00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:45,160 Speaker 1: and then the vultures eat the pieces. But it is a. 99 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:49,720 Speaker 1: This is a very remote region, very mountainous, there's just 100 00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:53,120 Speaker 1: not that much soil in which to plant a body. 101 00:05:53,720 --> 00:05:55,599 Speaker 1: So this is very much an option on the table, 102 00:05:55,680 --> 00:06:01,160 Speaker 1: and it falls well in line with the older shamanistic 103 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:07,160 Speaker 1: animistic traditions, like the pre uh pre Buddhism traditions of 104 00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:10,240 Speaker 1: the bat. Yeah, and there's a which is very much 105 00:06:10,279 --> 00:06:12,119 Speaker 1: connected to what we're going to be talking about today, 106 00:06:12,640 --> 00:06:14,920 Speaker 1: although we did not intend to bring up sky burial, 107 00:06:15,760 --> 00:06:17,880 Speaker 1: but yeah, like the idea that you're sort of giving 108 00:06:18,279 --> 00:06:22,640 Speaker 1: back to the ecosystem, to the universe. Yeah. So again, 109 00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:25,240 Speaker 1: it's a remote region, it's framed by some of the 110 00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:28,320 Speaker 1: world's highest mountains, and it served as quite a fascinating 111 00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:31,680 Speaker 1: I guess you could say an incubator for foreign religion influences, 112 00:06:32,040 --> 00:06:36,239 Speaker 1: most notably that of Buddhism, which came from several different 113 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:39,760 Speaker 1: directions into Tibet in the seventh and twelfth centuries see. 114 00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:42,880 Speaker 1: And to put that at all in perspective, the historical 115 00:06:42,960 --> 00:06:47,600 Speaker 1: Buddha Sidharta Gattama or the Shakya Mooney Buddha would have 116 00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:51,600 Speaker 1: lived in the fifth century b c. And these foreign 117 00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:56,120 Speaker 1: influences flowed in on top of pre existing shamanistic bond 118 00:06:56,520 --> 00:07:00,880 Speaker 1: religious ideas in Tibet. The shamanistic part is going to 119 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:03,760 Speaker 1: come back around is it's important for me, But I 120 00:07:03,800 --> 00:07:06,560 Speaker 1: want us to get through the Mandalis stuff first. I 121 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:10,520 Speaker 1: think there's some interesting connections here between modern storytelling and 122 00:07:10,560 --> 00:07:15,560 Speaker 1: shamanistic thinking. Now, the incorporation of a foreign religion is 123 00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:19,440 Speaker 1: not an overnight sensation, as it's not just like Buddhism 124 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:21,280 Speaker 1: came and said, all right, this is our jam. Now, 125 00:07:21,760 --> 00:07:25,680 Speaker 1: as Fisher points out, we see cycles of royal import 126 00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:29,400 Speaker 1: and support for Buddhism, along with periods of persecution. But 127 00:07:29,440 --> 00:07:33,520 Speaker 1: eventually we reach this uh, this period of the Second Diffusion, 128 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:36,520 Speaker 1: a seminal period into Beetan Buddhism in the last quarter 129 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:40,400 Speaker 1: of the tenth century. Now, at this point, I want 130 00:07:40,440 --> 00:07:44,800 Speaker 1: to challenge everyone to to think about religion a little 131 00:07:44,840 --> 00:07:47,960 Speaker 1: differently for the purposes of understanding to bit and Buddhism, 132 00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:50,040 Speaker 1: or at least to understand it as much as an 133 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:54,320 Speaker 1: outsider ultimately can. I want you to think about religion 134 00:07:54,680 --> 00:07:59,679 Speaker 1: as technology now, not meaning to directly invoke scientology lingo 135 00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:04,480 Speaker 1: here or to advocate equal footing between science and technology 136 00:08:04,520 --> 00:08:07,000 Speaker 1: and religion, but rather I want you to think of 137 00:08:07,040 --> 00:08:11,080 Speaker 1: religion as a system of rights, beliefs, and mental programs 138 00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:15,480 Speaker 1: intended to bring about one or more particular ends. You know, 139 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:19,440 Speaker 1: just think about why people engage with religion, right, They 140 00:08:19,440 --> 00:08:24,160 Speaker 1: want peace, happiness, liberation, salvation, elevation to a higher human form, 141 00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:26,600 Speaker 1: what have you. You know what that reminds me of 142 00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:30,720 Speaker 1: cyborg is m Yeah, very much so, which we've discussed 143 00:08:30,760 --> 00:08:33,240 Speaker 1: at length before. If you go back, we have an 144 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:37,679 Speaker 1: episode from last year, I think last year on cyborgs. 145 00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:41,199 Speaker 1: But we definitely I think we don't. You definitely get 146 00:08:41,200 --> 00:08:43,640 Speaker 1: with the philosophy of and in a sense kind of 147 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:48,720 Speaker 1: into the religious idea. Yeah. So consider that the Mahayana 148 00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:51,560 Speaker 1: branch of Buddhism one of the three main branches and 149 00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:54,600 Speaker 1: the largest today. Okay, let's consider this one. This is 150 00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:58,079 Speaker 1: the the great path, as opposed to the lesser path 151 00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:04,160 Speaker 1: of Theravada Buddhism, which originated in Sri Lanka. The Mahayana 152 00:09:04,160 --> 00:09:08,760 Speaker 1: way of Buddhism focuses on ordered monastic life and rights, 153 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:11,840 Speaker 1: and it offers a rather long term technological solution to 154 00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:16,240 Speaker 1: life's problems, a contemplative and intellectual journey to enlightenment. They 155 00:09:16,280 --> 00:09:20,800 Speaker 1: can take eons to complete through endless rebirths across time, 156 00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:24,880 Speaker 1: until at last all livings, all living beings, might be 157 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:29,800 Speaker 1: free from suffering. Sounds good, right, But then this is 158 00:09:29,800 --> 00:09:32,560 Speaker 1: where the esoteric forms of Buddhism in or the picture 159 00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:38,319 Speaker 1: in particular the the vadrariana or diamond vehicle or thunderbolt vehicle, 160 00:09:39,080 --> 00:09:42,839 Speaker 1: the tantric corpus of Buddhism. Okay, sometimes I've seen this 161 00:09:42,960 --> 00:09:47,360 Speaker 1: referred to as apocalyptic Buddhism. So if Mahayana Buddhism was 162 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:49,920 Speaker 1: a to put this in sci fi terms, if it 163 00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:54,120 Speaker 1: was a generation ship, a generation starship trudging its way 164 00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:59,920 Speaker 1: endlessly across space towards a distant exoplanet, then the vadre 165 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:03,600 Speaker 1: Yana Buddhism is a warp drive starship. It promises a 166 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:07,600 Speaker 1: means of individual liberation from the wheel of suffering within 167 00:10:07,640 --> 00:10:11,280 Speaker 1: a single lifetime. I feel like this came up when 168 00:10:11,320 --> 00:10:16,080 Speaker 1: we were talking about um mummification of monks. Yeah, I 169 00:10:16,080 --> 00:10:18,080 Speaker 1: bet bet it did, because we talked a little bit 170 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:21,680 Speaker 1: about the bodhistoft for the future. Yeah yeah, yeah yeah, 171 00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:26,440 Speaker 1: And that bodhisoft certainly plays into a Tibetan Tibetan culture 172 00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:30,160 Speaker 1: a bit as well. But the crazy thing about this 173 00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:33,640 Speaker 1: is that this UH, this this idea of esotery Buddhism 174 00:10:33,960 --> 00:10:37,360 Speaker 1: is it's it's not a mere shortcut approach. So it's 175 00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:39,200 Speaker 1: not one of these to to sort of try and 176 00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:44,240 Speaker 1: throw it into like modern Christian terms. It's not like, Okay, 177 00:10:44,240 --> 00:10:46,040 Speaker 1: I just love Jesus and everything's gonna be okay, don't 178 00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:47,680 Speaker 1: worry about any of the steps. It's not something like 179 00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:49,680 Speaker 1: that where it's like, hey, don't do all this work, 180 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:54,000 Speaker 1: just do this now. They're the approach here is is 181 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:58,400 Speaker 1: is putting a tremendous amount of work into uh achieving 182 00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:01,280 Speaker 1: this end. The stakes are just as high, and the 183 00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:04,920 Speaker 1: amount of mental effort involved is staggering, entailing the study 184 00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:10,760 Speaker 1: and contemplation of of all these other roots, entailing additional rituals, 185 00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:14,080 Speaker 1: and the worship of two distinct pampions, the five Buddha 186 00:11:14,160 --> 00:11:18,440 Speaker 1: families of the celestial Buddhas UH each residing on one 187 00:11:18,440 --> 00:11:22,160 Speaker 1: of the pure lands, and the appropriated Hindu deities. So 188 00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:26,400 Speaker 1: you have all these different deities going on. It's um 189 00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:27,839 Speaker 1: like reading about it, I couldn't help but think of 190 00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:29,839 Speaker 1: it in terms of say a dungeons and dragons character 191 00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:32,720 Speaker 1: where you know, generally you just wanna you pick your 192 00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:35,560 Speaker 1: character class and you pursue it, and you you do 193 00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:39,680 Speaker 1: everything right, but you can dual class, you can multi class. 194 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:43,120 Speaker 1: This would be like multi class in your dn D character. UH. 195 00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:45,520 Speaker 1: And and just setting out to achieve all of his 196 00:11:45,679 --> 00:11:50,360 Speaker 1: or her goals by just quadruple classing with wizard Presoorcerer Warlock, 197 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:54,840 Speaker 1: all to just to take something that would normally take 198 00:11:55,000 --> 00:11:58,160 Speaker 1: lifetimes to achieve in a single lifetime. In the D 199 00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:01,960 Speaker 1: n D comparison, you're combining the arcane and the divine. 200 00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:04,760 Speaker 1: Fisher has a wonderful quote. I think that drives this home. 201 00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:08,080 Speaker 1: He says, belief in the awesome possibility of harnessing the 202 00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:12,720 Speaker 1: powers needed to achieve enlightenment in this existence inspired complex 203 00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:17,680 Speaker 1: and mysterious practices. Such secret doctrines, visualizations, and magical powers 204 00:12:17,679 --> 00:12:20,160 Speaker 1: were not things that could be easily spelled out in text, 205 00:12:20,640 --> 00:12:24,320 Speaker 1: and the Vadriana literature remains as complex and mysterious as 206 00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:26,960 Speaker 1: any of the world's religions. So, in other words, to 207 00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:31,080 Speaker 1: organize this vast system of beliefs and gods and ways 208 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:34,160 Speaker 1: of thinking about life in the universe, UH, to make 209 00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:39,480 Speaker 1: it manageable, practitioners developed. Practitioners developed an enormous complex visual system, 210 00:12:39,679 --> 00:12:43,480 Speaker 1: an artistic tradition complete with a host of instruments, symbols, 211 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:48,040 Speaker 1: and images. So all of this, if we take it 212 00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:52,360 Speaker 1: all together, it touches upon a lot of topics that 213 00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:54,040 Speaker 1: Robert and I have covered on stuff to blow your 214 00:12:54,040 --> 00:12:56,559 Speaker 1: mind in the last year. I'd say, like a theme 215 00:12:56,600 --> 00:13:02,920 Speaker 1: that we've been working upon is mythology, archetypes, uh sort 216 00:13:02,960 --> 00:13:08,040 Speaker 1: of cultural resonance of those things and how they allow 217 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:10,600 Speaker 1: us to make sense of the world. Right Like a 218 00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:16,120 Speaker 1: very practical, objective standpoint, human beings need all of this, 219 00:13:16,559 --> 00:13:21,720 Speaker 1: whether it's Buddhism or Christianity or jedi Ism, UH, to 220 00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:24,640 Speaker 1: help them make sense of how the world works. And 221 00:13:24,679 --> 00:13:28,359 Speaker 1: this form of Buddhism just presents a an incredibly complex 222 00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:31,280 Speaker 1: and esoteric answer to that question. And in doing so, 223 00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:34,560 Speaker 1: essentially the practitioner is saying, Look, you're gonna need to 224 00:13:34,559 --> 00:13:37,200 Speaker 1: look at a lot of charts, a lot of graphs, 225 00:13:37,559 --> 00:13:40,720 Speaker 1: a lot of pie. This is kind of the equivalent 226 00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:43,760 Speaker 1: would be like a really in depth power point presentation. 227 00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:45,520 Speaker 1: We have to look at a bunch of charts and 228 00:13:45,559 --> 00:13:49,120 Speaker 1: graphs to get the meaning of what's going on. These 229 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:52,360 Speaker 1: various symbols and artistic conditions play into that as well, 230 00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:55,800 Speaker 1: and among these one finds the mandala. Yeah, why don't 231 00:13:55,840 --> 00:13:58,240 Speaker 1: we take a break and then we come back. We're 232 00:13:58,280 --> 00:14:00,199 Speaker 1: going to define the basics of the man end to 233 00:14:00,280 --> 00:14:04,000 Speaker 1: look for you so you can understand how we're going 234 00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:12,040 Speaker 1: from power point presentation to the art. Alright, we're back. 235 00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:17,600 Speaker 1: So the basics here of the mandola. So when you're saying, like, 236 00:14:17,640 --> 00:14:20,480 Speaker 1: what is it literally, I've seen some people say have circles, 237 00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:24,160 Speaker 1: some saying arc. I've also seen it translated as quote 238 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:29,640 Speaker 1: an essence protecting environment. They're ultimately though, nothing short of 239 00:14:29,720 --> 00:14:33,520 Speaker 1: a representation of the entire sacred universe. Yeah. The way 240 00:14:33,560 --> 00:14:35,640 Speaker 1: that I've read about it is that it's a symbol 241 00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:38,760 Speaker 1: of the entire universe, and it can be represented anywhere. 242 00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:41,200 Speaker 1: It could be on a wall, or on paper or 243 00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:44,680 Speaker 1: in the sand, like we talked about earlier, or entirely 244 00:14:44,720 --> 00:14:47,840 Speaker 1: in your mind. Uh, And its purpose is to represent 245 00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:53,040 Speaker 1: an imaginary palace that is contemplated upon during meditation. Yeah. 246 00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:54,880 Speaker 1: They can be two D, they can be three D 247 00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:57,800 Speaker 1: in the form of a sculpture or even architecture, or 248 00:14:57,840 --> 00:15:00,960 Speaker 1: they can be this this mental instruct and ultimately, I 249 00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:05,560 Speaker 1: guess the physical representations are about creating the mental constructed mind. 250 00:15:06,640 --> 00:15:09,760 Speaker 1: I really like the way that Robert F. Thurman explained 251 00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:12,280 Speaker 1: it in his translation of the Tibetanan Book of the Dead, 252 00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:14,840 Speaker 1: which I read from from at the top of this episode. 253 00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:19,840 Speaker 1: He said, they are three dimensional perfected environments Buddha verses 254 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:23,359 Speaker 1: or Buddha lands, created by the enlightenment of an individual 255 00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:27,080 Speaker 1: individual as a place that expresses his or her enlightenment. 256 00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:30,480 Speaker 1: They are realms through which other beings can be incorporated 257 00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:34,880 Speaker 1: into that enlightenment perspective. So since it's kind of like, 258 00:15:34,920 --> 00:15:38,240 Speaker 1: here's a here's a picture, here's a physical representation of 259 00:15:38,280 --> 00:15:41,120 Speaker 1: my head space that allows me to make sense of 260 00:15:41,160 --> 00:15:45,320 Speaker 1: the complexities of reality. Here, gaze into it and pour 261 00:15:45,480 --> 00:15:48,480 Speaker 1: this into your mind. So I may be stretching this 262 00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:50,680 Speaker 1: a little bit, but let me continue on from what 263 00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:53,480 Speaker 1: we were talking about with Dungeons and dragons are okay 264 00:15:53,520 --> 00:15:56,960 Speaker 1: to me? What this sounds like is world building in fiction, 265 00:15:57,280 --> 00:16:00,920 Speaker 1: like science fiction or fantasy. Right that you're you're creating 266 00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:04,440 Speaker 1: an alternative to the real world, and you're giving it 267 00:16:04,520 --> 00:16:10,560 Speaker 1: its own culture and deities and economy and locations. Right, 268 00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:14,200 Speaker 1: And the mandola uh sort of encapsulates all of those 269 00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:17,480 Speaker 1: in one artistic representation. Yeah, I think I think that's 270 00:16:17,480 --> 00:16:20,520 Speaker 1: a fair comparison, because when you think of a fantasy 271 00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:23,560 Speaker 1: book in particular, or done as in Dragons Module, you 272 00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:26,680 Speaker 1: inevitably think of maps and in number, and there's a 273 00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:29,040 Speaker 1: there's a lot of map like structure in these as 274 00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:33,040 Speaker 1: we'll get into the basic cosmology of the Buddhist universe 275 00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:35,680 Speaker 1: with its Holy Mountain at the center, like that's very 276 00:16:35,760 --> 00:16:38,880 Speaker 1: much a part of it. Uh. But yeah, ultimately, their 277 00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:45,040 Speaker 1: their symbolic expressions, they're teaching devices, their externalizations of complex theologies. 278 00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:46,440 Speaker 1: You know. Way you can think of them as thumb 279 00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:49,000 Speaker 1: drives of the gods, I guess. Yeah, Well, I mean 280 00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:51,400 Speaker 1: one of the things I read about Tibetan mandolas in 281 00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:55,880 Speaker 1: particular is that the deities within them, they're represented as 282 00:16:55,920 --> 00:17:00,480 Speaker 1: embodying philosophical views. They serve as role models for us 283 00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:03,600 Speaker 1: to look at and remember, Okay, this is what has 284 00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:08,080 Speaker 1: come before me, these are the lessons learned by my ancestors. 285 00:17:08,560 --> 00:17:10,760 Speaker 1: What can I take from this to guide my life? 286 00:17:10,960 --> 00:17:15,199 Speaker 1: Getting entailed number of symbols and essentially metasymbols. Yeah, it 287 00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:18,640 Speaker 1: reminds me, Okay, this is what I think of this 288 00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:23,240 Speaker 1: idea that number one, culture is how we understand the world. Uh, 289 00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:27,200 Speaker 1: and number two, storytelling is our means of transmitting culture 290 00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:31,240 Speaker 1: to one another as human beings. And then third that 291 00:17:31,359 --> 00:17:35,320 Speaker 1: the arte types that are within such stories they teach 292 00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:39,440 Speaker 1: us lessons about the human experience from other people's perspectives. Right. 293 00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:42,640 Speaker 1: So this is where and I am sort of trying 294 00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:44,320 Speaker 1: to pull this together on my own. It's a little 295 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:46,960 Speaker 1: bit of young and stuff from what we've talked about 296 00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:52,960 Speaker 1: mythology before, but I'm starting to see storytellers as modern shamans. 297 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:56,800 Speaker 1: And the mandola seems to me like another expression of that. 298 00:17:56,880 --> 00:18:01,240 Speaker 1: It's just done with art instead of words. Yeah, I 299 00:18:01,240 --> 00:18:05,840 Speaker 1: think so words or sand even, Yeah, exactly. So we've 300 00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:10,320 Speaker 1: mentioned these sand mandolas. Um, the construction of them has 301 00:18:10,359 --> 00:18:13,399 Speaker 1: to be affirmed as a ritual, which is very shamanistic. Right. 302 00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:17,240 Speaker 1: In order for the mandala to transmit positive energy to 303 00:18:17,359 --> 00:18:21,240 Speaker 1: its viewers, it's drawn in a ceremony, and the ceremony 304 00:18:21,280 --> 00:18:25,119 Speaker 1: includes monks chanting and dancing. Uh. They use these metal 305 00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:29,280 Speaker 1: funnels that are called check per and apparently they vibrate 306 00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:32,000 Speaker 1: in such a way that it causes the colored sand 307 00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:35,520 Speaker 1: inside to flow out like a liquid. When they're making them. Yeah, 308 00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:36,840 Speaker 1: I want to say, they kind of tap them on 309 00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:39,240 Speaker 1: the side as they go with a little metal implement 310 00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:42,879 Speaker 1: and it causes the like almost the individual granules of 311 00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:45,760 Speaker 1: sand to come out, and they just make a line 312 00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:49,040 Speaker 1: with it. Yeah. And what's important to note about these 313 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:51,720 Speaker 1: is they're not permanent. They're not meant to be permanent. 314 00:18:52,080 --> 00:18:55,520 Speaker 1: They're destroyed by these same monks. It serves as a 315 00:18:55,560 --> 00:18:59,160 Speaker 1: reminder that our lives are impermanent. Uh. And the sand 316 00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:01,600 Speaker 1: itself is rich turned to an urn, which is then 317 00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:04,640 Speaker 1: that sand is then placed in water. So they see 318 00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:06,440 Speaker 1: it again going back to what we were talking about 319 00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:08,680 Speaker 1: sky burial. They see this as a gift that goes 320 00:19:08,760 --> 00:19:11,800 Speaker 1: back into the environment, back into the universe. I see 321 00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:14,520 Speaker 1: some more accidental synchronicity between this episode and the other 322 00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:18,240 Speaker 1: episode we recorded this week that on Human Bound Human 323 00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:21,680 Speaker 1: flesh Bound books, because this, the creation of the sand 324 00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:25,840 Speaker 1: Mandola is an acceptance of impermanence, that anything that we 325 00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:28,440 Speaker 1: make is just not gonna last, whereas the flesh bound 326 00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:31,320 Speaker 1: book is more in the tradition of this will last forever, 327 00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:36,600 Speaker 1: This person's flesh will be will be immortalized in this 328 00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:39,960 Speaker 1: this tone well, or it's you know, I know that 329 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:42,680 Speaker 1: I'll be gone and I will just become an object 330 00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:45,440 Speaker 1: at some point. So I want to give the parts 331 00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:49,000 Speaker 1: of my body uh to be used for other purposes, 332 00:19:49,040 --> 00:19:53,800 Speaker 1: such as holding these books of anatomy together object permanence. Uh. Now, 333 00:19:53,800 --> 00:19:55,639 Speaker 1: I do want to point out that the use of 334 00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:59,280 Speaker 1: art to convey complex religious ideas can be found many 335 00:19:59,320 --> 00:20:03,520 Speaker 1: other places. Well that the three faced Christs of medieval 336 00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:07,320 Speaker 1: art instantly come to mind. These were not super common, 337 00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:09,359 Speaker 1: but it was only a brief period of time, and 338 00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:12,640 Speaker 1: the Church eventually decided that they did not care for it. 339 00:20:13,119 --> 00:20:16,679 Speaker 1: But you have something like the Holy Trinity in Christian 340 00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:20,480 Speaker 1: Catholic traditions, how do you convey that to the lay person? Well, 341 00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:22,960 Speaker 1: one way is to have an image of Christ that 342 00:20:23,040 --> 00:20:28,760 Speaker 1: has three faces, essentially a monstrous Christ. But it tries 343 00:20:28,800 --> 00:20:33,359 Speaker 1: to encapsulate something that is very difficult to explain language. Yeah, 344 00:20:33,560 --> 00:20:38,000 Speaker 1: I'm thinking of these weird monsters from the Transformers called 345 00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:39,760 Speaker 1: the Quinto song. Oh yeah, I love the U They 346 00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:42,159 Speaker 1: had the three faces that rotated around. I wonder if 347 00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:45,000 Speaker 1: there's some connection there. I don't know, but if you 348 00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:47,000 Speaker 1: see that the picture of the three faced Christ, you 349 00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:49,680 Speaker 1: can't help but think of those guys, just no tentacles 350 00:20:51,520 --> 00:20:54,119 Speaker 1: now and then another example from Christian tradition will be 351 00:20:54,119 --> 00:20:57,640 Speaker 1: the crucifix and the cross itself. So think about this. 352 00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:02,120 Speaker 1: The prefrontal cortex as part of the mammalian brain. Uh, 353 00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:05,879 Speaker 1: this is responsible for relating symbols and abstract concepts. The 354 00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:12,080 Speaker 1: unconscious processing prior to perception usually takes around three hundred milliseconds, 355 00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:15,520 Speaker 1: So it's not that surprising that as a psychologist, Adam 356 00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:19,920 Speaker 1: Altar discovered Christians tend to behave more honestly, when they're 357 00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:23,160 Speaker 1: exposed to an image of the crucifix, even if they're 358 00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:25,680 Speaker 1: they have no conscious memory of having seen it, They're 359 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:29,040 Speaker 1: just exposed to it and just the power of the 360 00:21:29,119 --> 00:21:33,680 Speaker 1: symbol helped inform their behavior. Literally, the power of Christ 361 00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:37,080 Speaker 1: compels you, yeah, or at least the power of Christian symbolism. Uh. 362 00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:40,119 Speaker 1: And in nine there was an experiment from the University 363 00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:43,520 Speaker 1: of Michigan that found that Christians felt less virtuous after 364 00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:46,919 Speaker 1: subliminal exposure to an image of Pope John Paul the Second. 365 00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:50,280 Speaker 1: And there have been some secular experiments with this as well, 366 00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:53,119 Speaker 1: people tending to think more creatively when exposed to the 367 00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:57,399 Speaker 1: Apple computer logo or an incandescent lightbulb. So that's just 368 00:21:57,720 --> 00:21:59,760 Speaker 1: just a few examples to drive home just the power 369 00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:04,560 Speaker 1: of symbols, the power of non linguistic information, uh, even 370 00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:06,879 Speaker 1: into small examples, and if you roll it all up 371 00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:10,240 Speaker 1: into essentially a meta symbol, as we see in the Mandala, 372 00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:14,000 Speaker 1: you can see how this does really help to to 373 00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:18,560 Speaker 1: to form the mindset of the the younger Buddhist trying 374 00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:21,119 Speaker 1: to learn how to perceive reality. Yeah, I think that 375 00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:23,600 Speaker 1: this is just a version of that that we here 376 00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:26,760 Speaker 1: in the West maybe aren't as familiar with. How to 377 00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:28,399 Speaker 1: go back to what we said ere there about about 378 00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:31,200 Speaker 1: maps um the kind of mandol as we were talking 379 00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:34,240 Speaker 1: about here, it's an organized system that explains the cosmos 380 00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:36,560 Speaker 1: in terms of the body, in terms of a building, 381 00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:40,520 Speaker 1: in terms of the physical universe. So they referenced the 382 00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:45,200 Speaker 1: notion of the Buddhist cosmos as centered by Holy Mount Meru, 383 00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:48,439 Speaker 1: which is the home of gods and Buddhas, and surrounded 384 00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:52,120 Speaker 1: by seven oceans and seven concentric mountain ranges. And beyond 385 00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:55,960 Speaker 1: these ranges you find another ocean, islands that include human habitation, 386 00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:59,480 Speaker 1: and finally a great wall of rock enclosing everything. Generally, 387 00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:01,480 Speaker 1: you know, square of shape because the image itself is 388 00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:07,119 Speaker 1: question interesting. So a mandola is spatial, it's symmetrical, and 389 00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:10,639 Speaker 1: it's the presentation of all of these ideas. Yeah, so 390 00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:12,879 Speaker 1: you've got an example here of sort of how you 391 00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:15,919 Speaker 1: would build out a mandala from the my understanding, as 392 00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:19,160 Speaker 1: you start at the center and you build going out. Yeah, 393 00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:20,760 Speaker 1: I don't. I think that's or at least that's the 394 00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:22,439 Speaker 1: way that I feel like we look at them, we 395 00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:25,160 Speaker 1: tend to process them. So you have a central deity, 396 00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:28,840 Speaker 1: you know, or Buddha or other figure. You have concentric 397 00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:33,400 Speaker 1: circles of guardian deities. You have square palace grounds featuring gateways, 398 00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:36,680 Speaker 1: you know, ways to get in and out, uh circle 399 00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:42,399 Speaker 1: of create cremation grounds representing the phenomenal world direction deities. 400 00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:46,320 Speaker 1: And then the outer walls oceans, barriers at the very 401 00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:48,480 Speaker 1: edge of the image. So, in other words, we're talking 402 00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:51,520 Speaker 1: about a world generated his art so that it might 403 00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:54,720 Speaker 1: be simulated in the mind. A place where fortresses of 404 00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:57,919 Speaker 1: bone rise above a sea of blood, where a pantheon 405 00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:02,160 Speaker 1: of wrathful and serene the ease a symbol and precise arrangement. 406 00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:06,639 Speaker 1: You've got, you know, multi limbed beings, dancing cyclopean architecture, 407 00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:10,240 Speaker 1: mountains that bridge Earth to the cosmos. It's all present 408 00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:14,240 Speaker 1: and and we're serious about the seas of blood part 409 00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:17,520 Speaker 1: to Bettan art and iconography makes use of many dark 410 00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:22,040 Speaker 1: elements such as bone, blood, flamed skin. But here's just 411 00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:23,840 Speaker 1: to give you a taste of this. This is from 412 00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:28,080 Speaker 1: Himalayan art dot org uh and it's a description of 413 00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:33,560 Speaker 1: the mandola of the Yama Dharma. It describes the the 414 00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:36,320 Speaker 1: mandola in detail. But the more the most interesting part 415 00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:39,040 Speaker 1: here is all of this is encircled by a ring 416 00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:42,760 Speaker 1: of skulls, a sea of blood, and the eight Great 417 00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:47,080 Speaker 1: Charnel grounds again surrounded by a circle of Vadra's uh, 418 00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:51,720 Speaker 1: the bright orange flames of pristine awareness. So i am. 419 00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:54,520 Speaker 1: I go to a yoga studio here in Atlanta called 420 00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:59,640 Speaker 1: Tough Love Yoga, which is infamous for conducting was called 421 00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:03,440 Speaker 1: me a yoga. You do yoga listening to death metal. Um, 422 00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:07,400 Speaker 1: and the woman who started it there um she has 423 00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:12,080 Speaker 1: brought artwork like this to the st also because it 424 00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:14,959 Speaker 1: seems like it's incidental, but it's not. There's lots of 425 00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:18,399 Speaker 1: skull icronography and blood and things like that, things that 426 00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:23,000 Speaker 1: we associate with death metal in in artwork that connects 427 00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:25,680 Speaker 1: to yoga. Then they've got they've got this giant mandola 428 00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:29,440 Speaker 1: wheel painted on the wall by a local tattoo artist. 429 00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:32,199 Speaker 1: Is really cool, awesome. Yeah, I mean there's plenty of 430 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:35,320 Speaker 1: very death mentally imagery on this. I mean, what we 431 00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:38,159 Speaker 1: just describe sounds like it could be a Slayer album 432 00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:41,560 Speaker 1: covers totally. Yeah. But in looking at these mandal as, 433 00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:44,199 Speaker 1: you'll find a great deal of complexity. Sometimes there are 434 00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:48,560 Speaker 1: mandal is within mandalas. And uh Roberty Fisher at one 435 00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:52,400 Speaker 1: point and his book refers to quote a remarkable visual 436 00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:57,440 Speaker 1: litany of deities, mostly female, a programmatic sequence that can 437 00:25:57,440 --> 00:25:59,960 Speaker 1: be traced back to specific tests. I like that descript 438 00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:02,879 Speaker 1: and because it really brings the technological and the technological 439 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:04,840 Speaker 1: idea that this is. It's kind of like a program 440 00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:08,560 Speaker 1: that you're loading into your mind. And the study of 441 00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:11,479 Speaker 1: mandola art is a discipline to itself. But we can 442 00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:14,920 Speaker 1: explore a little more of their power and connection to 443 00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:19,760 Speaker 1: the human bind by considering a Western notion, that of 444 00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:23,560 Speaker 1: the memory palace. Yeah, so let's take a quick break 445 00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:27,080 Speaker 1: and then when we come back, we're gonna give you 446 00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:29,640 Speaker 1: a refresher on the memory palace. There's been a previous 447 00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:32,080 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind episode on it, but we'll 448 00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:34,080 Speaker 1: we'll dive into it a little bit and then we're 449 00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:41,720 Speaker 1: going to connect these two things together. All right, we're back. 450 00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:45,560 Speaker 1: So yeah, so you in previous host Julie did a 451 00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:47,800 Speaker 1: Memory Palace episode, is that right? We did, and then 452 00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:51,840 Speaker 1: we did rerun of it after you and Joe came 453 00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:54,800 Speaker 1: on board that featured an interview with a memory champion. 454 00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:57,240 Speaker 1: So there are two different versions of that podcast. I'll 455 00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:00,560 Speaker 1: try and link to the interview version the landing page 456 00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:02,800 Speaker 1: for this episode, because you get to hear from somebody 457 00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:07,600 Speaker 1: who uses memory palace um and uses the method of 458 00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:10,680 Speaker 1: Loki uh to a very high degree. Yeah. This came 459 00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:14,199 Speaker 1: up a lot in the literature of how memory contestants 460 00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:16,960 Speaker 1: are using this so that they can just memorize vast 461 00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:19,919 Speaker 1: amounts of information. But a lot of you out there 462 00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:22,439 Speaker 1: are probably thinking, well, there's a lot of pop culture 463 00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:25,159 Speaker 1: examples of this right now, I remember hearing about this 464 00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:29,320 Speaker 1: from somewhere. Well, uh, it's certainly in the BBC version 465 00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:32,879 Speaker 1: of Sherlock uh. And as previously discussed on Stuff to 466 00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:35,960 Speaker 1: Buil Your Mind, Uh, somebody who were interested in the 467 00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:38,919 Speaker 1: work of Maria Knakova. She has written a book on 468 00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:42,520 Speaker 1: how to Think like Sherlock Holmes. She talks about memory palaces. Uh. 469 00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:46,359 Speaker 1: In the BBC Sherlock it's called a mind palace, which 470 00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:50,800 Speaker 1: some people think was picked up from British illusionist Darren Brown, 471 00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:56,280 Speaker 1: or from Hannibal Lector in the novels or the TV series. 472 00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:59,760 Speaker 1: Now Thomas Harris, who you know wrote the original novels 473 00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:03,639 Speaker 1: that feature Hannibal lecteror he credits this idea back to 474 00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:07,200 Speaker 1: Francis Yates, who is the author of the Art of Memory. 475 00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:10,680 Speaker 1: And Yates traces the idea of the memory palace back 476 00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:16,680 Speaker 1: to uh someone named Bruno, a sixteen hundreds Dominican monk. Uh. 477 00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:19,520 Speaker 1: But that goes even further back down through the Medieval 478 00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:24,440 Speaker 1: and Renaissance era, back to the Greek poet simon IDEs Uh. 479 00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:28,080 Speaker 1: And Yates argues that the Seven Deadly Sins, or for instance, 480 00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:32,560 Speaker 1: Dante's Divine Comedy, the structures within those of Hell and 481 00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:36,359 Speaker 1: Purgatory and Heaven, those are all versions of memory palaces 482 00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:39,520 Speaker 1: and in and in turn memories of mindless. Yeah. If 483 00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:42,239 Speaker 1: I think there's a lot of comparison to be made, uh, 484 00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:46,480 Speaker 1: between a map of Dante's Inferno and the model. Yeah, 485 00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:50,320 Speaker 1: it's just different mythology. The theme of yates work is 486 00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:54,440 Speaker 1: that the Renaissance, which we view now with some skepticism 487 00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:59,680 Speaker 1: as superstitious, is actually full of quote, magical beliefs that 488 00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:03,680 Speaker 1: we now continue on into our scientific revolution. So for instance, 489 00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:06,440 Speaker 1: go cr two episodes on John d for more on 490 00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:08,440 Speaker 1: that and what we actually This is a theme that 491 00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:10,600 Speaker 1: comes up a lot for us, I think, but uh, 492 00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:13,040 Speaker 1: maybe also a little bit in the book Binding of 493 00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:16,560 Speaker 1: Human Skin that we're recording this week. But the same 494 00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:20,760 Speaker 1: idea here that um, there is stuff that seems like 495 00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:26,360 Speaker 1: it's uh superstitious or magical in nature that does actually 496 00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:30,920 Speaker 1: have some purpose to it in our current scientific methodology 497 00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:34,080 Speaker 1: of thinking. Yeah, I mean it basically the idea of 498 00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:37,000 Speaker 1: the memory palace. It basically all boils down to employing 499 00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:40,680 Speaker 1: spatial memory to memorize information by placing it all in 500 00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:45,600 Speaker 1: an imagine palace, uh, a palace filled with memorable symbols. 501 00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:47,840 Speaker 1: So you know, theres we've discussed on here before. There 502 00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:49,920 Speaker 1: are various forms of memory that we employed. There's not 503 00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:53,440 Speaker 1: just one bucket of memory, and this is essentially a 504 00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:56,600 Speaker 1: way that we tweak our mind and using spatial memory 505 00:29:56,640 --> 00:30:01,680 Speaker 1: to to remember often just sometimes numbers or or or 506 00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:04,720 Speaker 1: unimportant facts. The idea here is that humans have a 507 00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:09,080 Speaker 1: knack for remembering spatial layouts. Brain scans even show show 508 00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:11,560 Speaker 1: us that the spatial learning parts of the brain are 509 00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:15,520 Speaker 1: used by people who actually win these memory contests. It's 510 00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:18,600 Speaker 1: particularly useful for remembering things in a sequence or a list, 511 00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:22,720 Speaker 1: like groceries for example. Uh. It requires a lot of 512 00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:25,360 Speaker 1: time to establish, but once once you have it in place, 513 00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:27,400 Speaker 1: you can go back to you continue to walk through 514 00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:30,280 Speaker 1: that memory palace in order to remember the items and 515 00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:32,240 Speaker 1: the order. Yeah. And one of the things that I 516 00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:35,280 Speaker 1: saw that connects it back to the mandala is that, Uh, 517 00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:40,240 Speaker 1: someone pointed out that Buddhism uses a lot of sequence 518 00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:45,520 Speaker 1: and list type information in order to get across its philosophy. 519 00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:50,600 Speaker 1: So subsequently, the mandola's then translate really well into these 520 00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:56,480 Speaker 1: memory palaces. Now the origin Okay, so what I just 521 00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:58,320 Speaker 1: took us through brought us all the way back to 522 00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:03,200 Speaker 1: Greek poets simonade Uh. But it was first written in 523 00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:08,240 Speaker 1: the Rhetorica ad hereni Um, which in the eighties b 524 00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:12,040 Speaker 1: c e. Was written by unknown authors. Some people thought 525 00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:15,400 Speaker 1: that it might have been Cicero, but now they think 526 00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:17,760 Speaker 1: they don't know who it is. Um. Now, this is 527 00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:22,000 Speaker 1: the oldest surviving Latin book on rhetoric, and it teaches 528 00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:24,800 Speaker 1: the method of loci, which is the the the idea 529 00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:27,880 Speaker 1: of the memory palace, or the idea of using imagined, 530 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:31,600 Speaker 1: well known locations like your home to remember things. Now, 531 00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:35,040 Speaker 1: this to me reminded me of my my schooling, and 532 00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:39,400 Speaker 1: in rhetoric it seems inherently connected to the Aristotelian idea 533 00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:42,000 Speaker 1: of the peripatetic learning system. Have you heard about this 534 00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:46,560 Speaker 1: at all? So basically the idea was that Aristotle, when 535 00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:49,920 Speaker 1: he was working with his students in his his quote college, 536 00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:52,960 Speaker 1: his school, that they would learn while they were walking 537 00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:57,600 Speaker 1: and talking. Uh. And the method of loca is essentially 538 00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:02,240 Speaker 1: a walk about, so you're be remembering what you learned 539 00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:06,520 Speaker 1: by going on an imaginary walk. But here's the thing. 540 00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:10,160 Speaker 1: Other sources say, actually it was invented by Greek poet 541 00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:15,000 Speaker 1: Simon IDs uh. And this was real morbid. Apparently, after 542 00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:18,479 Speaker 1: he stepped out of a banquet hall, it collapsed and 543 00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:23,520 Speaker 1: killed everybody inside, and he was left to identify their remains. 544 00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:25,960 Speaker 1: He had to put a name to each body and 545 00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:28,400 Speaker 1: that's how he invented the method of loci. So he's 546 00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:31,320 Speaker 1: he's thinking of and stuff. All right. So Jim was 547 00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:33,680 Speaker 1: seated over there, he had he had the chicken wings, 548 00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:36,320 Speaker 1: and then and then Joe he was over here. He 549 00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:40,720 Speaker 1: was to my left, and he's piecing this all together exactly. Yeah. Well, Cicero, 550 00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:45,440 Speaker 1: though was involved. He is celebrated as popularizing it. He 551 00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:51,160 Speaker 1: wrote something down basically because writing something down at that 552 00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:54,840 Speaker 1: time was expensive. Paper was expensive. Not everybody knew how 553 00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:58,000 Speaker 1: to write. Uh. It wasn't until the printing press that 554 00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:00,959 Speaker 1: it basically the method of Look how the memory palace 555 00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:05,200 Speaker 1: became obsolete. And we've continued to see that pattern as 556 00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:08,120 Speaker 1: we've changed the ways that we can externalize memory. We 557 00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:12,120 Speaker 1: have to rely on internal memory less. Now as we 558 00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:16,240 Speaker 1: said already, it's employing spatial memory. And it makes sense 559 00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:19,160 Speaker 1: that humans would have a robust ability for spatial memory because, 560 00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:21,440 Speaker 1: as I mean, that's what we do. We live in 561 00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:24,480 Speaker 1: this physical world. And even though most of us have 562 00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:27,440 Speaker 1: probably have our patterns you know down you know to 563 00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:31,160 Speaker 1: ultimately you know of just a few varied environments, and 564 00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:32,720 Speaker 1: you know how to get there and how to get back. 565 00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:35,440 Speaker 1: You know, we're we're programmed to deal with the broader world. 566 00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:39,040 Speaker 1: We're programmed to to to make spatial sense of the 567 00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:43,000 Speaker 1: world around us, to catalog its storied away. And so 568 00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:47,080 Speaker 1: this is just taking spatial scaffolding and applying it to 569 00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:51,040 Speaker 1: a list of facts, to a theological structure, to a 570 00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:56,000 Speaker 1: cosmological viewpoint. Um. So the memory palace is not a trick. 571 00:33:56,680 --> 00:33:59,600 Speaker 1: It's it's just how we think about the world, and 572 00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:03,120 Speaker 1: we're taken the way we think about physical reality, the 573 00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:07,160 Speaker 1: way we think about spatial environments, and using it to 574 00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:12,640 Speaker 1: to remember other organized systems. Yeah, it's almost like these 575 00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:17,399 Speaker 1: other older cultures had created a learning system around how 576 00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:21,160 Speaker 1: we naturally adapt to knowledge, how we how we observe knowledge, 577 00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:24,960 Speaker 1: and then we went and somehow broke that and created 578 00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:28,680 Speaker 1: this other learning system that, especially for memorization, that's far 579 00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:33,560 Speaker 1: more difficult and not how our our biology is set 580 00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:36,960 Speaker 1: up to learn. Uh. And now now we're sort of 581 00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:39,680 Speaker 1: coming back and we're going, oh right, right, yeah, this 582 00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:43,759 Speaker 1: is spatial learning is actually much easier. Yeah, and so 583 00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:46,160 Speaker 1: again we come back to this idea of the mandola, 584 00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:48,880 Speaker 1: and to see one of these and imagine it on 585 00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:51,680 Speaker 1: the wall, it makes perfect sense. You can't just write 586 00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:54,520 Speaker 1: out everything and have these notes for everybody who's trying 587 00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:56,239 Speaker 1: to to to learn the system. But you can have 588 00:34:56,280 --> 00:34:59,920 Speaker 1: someone guiding through it, refer to this work of our 589 00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:02,239 Speaker 1: and then you look at it, you take it in, 590 00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:04,480 Speaker 1: and you're able to use this as the memory palace 591 00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:08,080 Speaker 1: for the theological ideas. Now, the thought at work here 592 00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:13,960 Speaker 1: is that memory palaces harness our evolved skill at remembering 593 00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:17,960 Speaker 1: details of locations because as hunter gatherers we used to 594 00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:21,359 Speaker 1: recall what was edible, where to find it, or how 595 00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:24,920 Speaker 1: to avoid what was poisonous because of spatial memory. Modern 596 00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:29,080 Speaker 1: research backs this up. After people viewed thousands of images 597 00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:32,239 Speaker 1: for a few seconds each, studies found that, on average, 598 00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:35,560 Speaker 1: they could distinguish eighty percent of the images from those 599 00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:38,719 Speaker 1: that they had not seen. Uh. In addition, people can 600 00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:43,640 Speaker 1: usually recall objects they've seen after seeing hundreds of intervening ones, 601 00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:47,600 Speaker 1: showing our capacity for storing visual memories in the long term. 602 00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:50,799 Speaker 1: This is I I don't know if you've heard this 603 00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:52,920 Speaker 1: a lot, but when I was in academia it was 604 00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:55,960 Speaker 1: really starting to become popular with the idea of visual thinkers. 605 00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:59,359 Speaker 1: I'm a visual thinker. I can't I can't read that 606 00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:03,560 Speaker 1: text any something visual uh is something that's making its 607 00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:08,200 Speaker 1: way through sort of just the education system. Other studies 608 00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:10,920 Speaker 1: have shown that the memory palace, or the usage of it, 609 00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:13,520 Speaker 1: it doubles the proportion of people who can remember an 610 00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:16,880 Speaker 1: eleven to twelve item grocery list. So again, sequences and 611 00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:20,080 Speaker 1: lists work really well. Students who use it in economics 612 00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:23,239 Speaker 1: outperformed those who did not when they take an exam, 613 00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:26,120 Speaker 1: and medical students who used it learned more about the 614 00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:28,960 Speaker 1: end of crime system than those who did not. It's 615 00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:33,200 Speaker 1: apparently also useful for patients who have had treatments that 616 00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:38,279 Speaker 1: can potentially impair their recall or cognitive function. Hm. Well 617 00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:40,920 Speaker 1: that makes sense. Like again, they're again they're multiple forms 618 00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:44,960 Speaker 1: of memory, and if you can cap into another form 619 00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:47,960 Speaker 1: of memory to achieve the goals of one that's damaged, 620 00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:51,040 Speaker 1: then then you can find a good bit of success. Yeah. 621 00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:53,600 Speaker 1: As I was doing the research, I immediately thought to myself, 622 00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:57,960 Speaker 1: if as I become older, I start experiencing memory loss 623 00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:00,760 Speaker 1: and or dementia, gonna have to turn to a memory 624 00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:03,680 Speaker 1: palace and just really develop one. So we've already had 625 00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:06,160 Speaker 1: a number of the parallels here between the memory palace 626 00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:09,680 Speaker 1: and the mandala um, and you know, a number of 627 00:37:09,719 --> 00:37:12,320 Speaker 1: the parallels are just obvious. Again, it's all about using 628 00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:18,000 Speaker 1: um our spatial memory to to internalize either you know, 629 00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:21,959 Speaker 1: a long list of data or a theological system. Yeah, 630 00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:24,759 Speaker 1: and it's all really brought together here for us by 631 00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:28,920 Speaker 1: an East Asian scholar named Dan o'huigan uh, and he 632 00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:33,160 Speaker 1: provides interesting commentary on the concept of the mandala being 633 00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:37,239 Speaker 1: like a memory palace. He argues the mandalas serves the 634 00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:41,560 Speaker 1: same purpose as memory palaces that Roman orders used. Uh. 635 00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:44,719 Speaker 1: For instance, they used it to help monks organize their knowledge. Now, 636 00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:47,799 Speaker 1: keep in mind that in both instances, these people had 637 00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:50,759 Speaker 1: to rely on their memories more than we do, right, um, 638 00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:54,000 Speaker 1: they didn't have paper, they didn't have flash drives, they 639 00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:59,279 Speaker 1: didn't have smartphones. His primary example is Quintillion's use of 640 00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:02,120 Speaker 1: placing some Bolck items in his home to help him 641 00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:05,440 Speaker 1: remember things about law and the courts. And then people 642 00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:09,280 Speaker 1: like Robert flood Are Giordano Bruno who I mentioned earlier. 643 00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:13,759 Speaker 1: They went on to visualize memory palaces as imagined spaces 644 00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:17,840 Speaker 1: more similar to the mandola. Ohuigan though he thinks that 645 00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:21,520 Speaker 1: these techniques were developed independently from one another, even though 646 00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:25,239 Speaker 1: they're extremely similar. Uh, and the mandola allows them to 647 00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:29,120 Speaker 1: visualize something colorful to help you remember what's going on. 648 00:38:29,239 --> 00:38:32,439 Speaker 1: And it's similar to how Buddhism uses lists to help 649 00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:35,719 Speaker 1: you remember its tenants, so mentioning earlier. Yeah, and you 650 00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:38,680 Speaker 1: see this in in in really a number of different 651 00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:44,440 Speaker 1: Asian religions. But all of these various gods and artistic motifs, 652 00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:47,520 Speaker 1: like every detail of it is important. You know, what 653 00:38:47,719 --> 00:38:50,080 Speaker 1: is what is the deity or the Buddha holding, what 654 00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:52,880 Speaker 1: position is their their body in? Like all of it 655 00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:55,719 Speaker 1: tells you something. If you know what the symbols mean. Yeah, 656 00:38:55,719 --> 00:38:59,680 Speaker 1: if you can recall that visual then you can sort 657 00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:02,520 Speaker 1: of race your way back through what what Lesson is 658 00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:05,399 Speaker 1: trying to teach. Yeah, and you'll see descriptions for these 659 00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:08,600 Speaker 1: where they're like, all right, well this particular Buddha, Bodhist 660 00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:10,839 Speaker 1: for God, or their hand is like this that means 661 00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:13,319 Speaker 1: such and such they're holding this weapon or that and 662 00:39:13,360 --> 00:39:15,840 Speaker 1: this too is a symbol. So it all comes together. 663 00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:20,360 Speaker 1: It's not just pure, you know, artistic entertainment. So Huigan 664 00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:24,439 Speaker 1: points out that new monics and memory palaces are now 665 00:39:24,520 --> 00:39:29,280 Speaker 1: replaced by libraries, computers, and paper uh. And these function 666 00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:33,320 Speaker 1: as extensions of our brains, so we don't need tools 667 00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:36,200 Speaker 1: like mandalas or memory palaces anymore. And he he goes 668 00:39:36,239 --> 00:39:38,880 Speaker 1: so far to argue that this is an area where 669 00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:43,960 Speaker 1: he says, quote humanity scholars can justify their existence by 670 00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:47,200 Speaker 1: contributing something useful to the knowledge of our culture. So 671 00:39:47,640 --> 00:39:50,960 Speaker 1: he has a little bit of a lower esteem for 672 00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:54,320 Speaker 1: the humanities, uh just throughout the piece, and generally is 673 00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:57,360 Speaker 1: kind of dismissive of academia. That's okay, I get that 674 00:39:57,440 --> 00:40:02,920 Speaker 1: sometimes too, but uh so, anyway, he started bringing these together, 675 00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:04,879 Speaker 1: but at the ultimately at the end of the day, 676 00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:07,560 Speaker 1: he says, I don't think like there was some kind 677 00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:10,640 Speaker 1: of like hidden connection that we haven't discovered yet where 678 00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:13,279 Speaker 1: these cultures came in contact with one another and we're 679 00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:17,840 Speaker 1: sharing information like this. It's just naturally how these different 680 00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:22,240 Speaker 1: cultures of humanity developed. Now, in the past, Mandela creation 681 00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:25,960 Speaker 1: has been limited by human thought but also by the 682 00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:29,200 Speaker 1: limits of art and construction. So certainly we've seen some 683 00:40:29,239 --> 00:40:33,680 Speaker 1: epic attempts to reflect Mandala schema in architecture. But modern 684 00:40:33,719 --> 00:40:38,279 Speaker 1: technology makes something even grander possible. A complete simulation of 685 00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:41,560 Speaker 1: the Mandola of virtual world based on the Mandola which 686 00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:45,720 Speaker 1: I think is kind of beautiful because essentially the Memory Palace. 687 00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:49,240 Speaker 1: Take come, the mandola is a simulated world, a world 688 00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:52,239 Speaker 1: you simulate simula in your head, and you make the 689 00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:56,200 Speaker 1: world in your head conform uh to the the shape 690 00:40:56,280 --> 00:41:00,280 Speaker 1: in this other individual's head, and the virtual word old 691 00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:03,000 Speaker 1: is is the potential to do that in this this 692 00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:06,640 Speaker 1: third mind, the mind of the machine. Yeah. I couldn't 693 00:41:06,640 --> 00:41:10,759 Speaker 1: help but imagine that when Second Life was really at 694 00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:13,520 Speaker 1: its high, there must have been somebody in their building 695 00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:18,799 Speaker 1: a mandola within the virtual world there that somehow represented 696 00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:22,479 Speaker 1: multiple things. Yeah, I mean, because there's certainly have been 697 00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:28,440 Speaker 1: a several different virtual mandala projects creating three D simulations 698 00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:32,439 Speaker 1: of these meaning laden medicymbols. Yeah. One example I've got 699 00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:36,800 Speaker 1: here is from cal mel Chen's mapping Scientific Frontiers The 700 00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:41,040 Speaker 1: Quest for Knowledge Visualization, and he talks about virtual environments 701 00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:44,200 Speaker 1: being created that are based on the mandala and using 702 00:41:44,239 --> 00:41:48,520 Speaker 1: it as an organizing metaphor for shared cyberspace. He connects 703 00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:51,080 Speaker 1: this to the idea of the Memory Palace. Up there 704 00:41:51,120 --> 00:41:53,840 Speaker 1: we go. So there's another person who put them together, 705 00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:57,520 Speaker 1: and he says Cicero was the most authoritative advisor on 706 00:41:57,560 --> 00:42:01,279 Speaker 1: that subject. But basically Lee. He says, you know, you 707 00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:04,280 Speaker 1: want to begin by imagining an very well lit place. 708 00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:06,640 Speaker 1: Then once you get to know, then you store and 709 00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:09,439 Speaker 1: retrieve objects there. So I can see how you would 710 00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:12,760 Speaker 1: both do that within your imagination and within a virtual world. 711 00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:16,560 Speaker 1: One of the things that I'm interested in as we 712 00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:19,759 Speaker 1: reach the end of the discussion here is we're at 713 00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:22,200 Speaker 1: a current place where we have, as we said, we've 714 00:42:22,239 --> 00:42:25,560 Speaker 1: we've we've gotten to abandon these memory palaces for the 715 00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:27,359 Speaker 1: most part. We've gotten to the point where we can 716 00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:33,239 Speaker 1: abandon mondolas and other religious uh paintings and and and 717 00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:37,319 Speaker 1: meta symbols that give us this information. Instead we just 718 00:42:37,520 --> 00:42:39,919 Speaker 1: we go online, right, or we go to the book UH, 719 00:42:39,960 --> 00:42:42,600 Speaker 1: and we can find lists, we can find all the 720 00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:45,520 Speaker 1: data spelled out for us. But as we get more 721 00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:50,360 Speaker 1: and more into a virtual reality age, and I'm trying 722 00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:52,840 Speaker 1: to to say that not in a like mid nineties 723 00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:55,520 Speaker 1: law and more Man sense, right, but but looking at 724 00:42:55,520 --> 00:42:58,279 Speaker 1: some of the very real virtual reality applications that are 725 00:42:58,320 --> 00:43:02,840 Speaker 1: going on out there and trying to imagine a near 726 00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:07,640 Speaker 1: future in which the virtual use of cyberspace is more ubiquitous, 727 00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:10,120 Speaker 1: are we going to see a sort of return to 728 00:43:10,239 --> 00:43:12,920 Speaker 1: some of these what we see, for instance, could we 729 00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:18,759 Speaker 1: see spatial memory employed more as an educational tool maybe. 730 00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:22,520 Speaker 1: I think that what you might see before that is 731 00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:27,840 Speaker 1: creative types maybe trying to use the medium of virtual 732 00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:32,480 Speaker 1: reality or augmented reality in such a way that it's 733 00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:36,840 Speaker 1: representative like a mandala is uh So that like it 734 00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:41,319 Speaker 1: takes you through a virtual story and you you you 735 00:43:41,480 --> 00:43:44,759 Speaker 1: learn as you go through it. I mean, we're so, 736 00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:47,320 Speaker 1: I'm going to south By Southwest in a couple of weeks, 737 00:43:47,480 --> 00:43:49,480 Speaker 1: and I was just looking at the program schedule and 738 00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:52,920 Speaker 1: I can't tell you like probably like of the panels 739 00:43:52,920 --> 00:43:56,560 Speaker 1: there are about virtual reality and augmented reality. Uh So, 740 00:43:56,719 --> 00:43:58,960 Speaker 1: it is definitely something that's coming down the road. We 741 00:43:59,080 --> 00:44:02,440 Speaker 1: know Facebook is heavily invested in it. Our other colleagues 742 00:44:02,440 --> 00:44:05,560 Speaker 1: here at how Stuff Works have covered this at nauseum. 743 00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:08,560 Speaker 1: But the Oculus rift and Palmer Lucky and all the 744 00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:10,680 Speaker 1: work that's gone into that and Facebook buying it up 745 00:44:10,680 --> 00:44:13,440 Speaker 1: and stuff. So yeah, I think that that's going to 746 00:44:13,520 --> 00:44:16,759 Speaker 1: be like a new palette for people to create on. 747 00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:19,960 Speaker 1: It's gonna take a while, though, I think for education 748 00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:22,839 Speaker 1: to catch up to it, especially when you think about it, 749 00:44:23,239 --> 00:44:27,239 Speaker 1: like education hasn't really even figured out yet, Hey, maybe 750 00:44:27,239 --> 00:44:29,880 Speaker 1: we should return back to the spatial learning system that 751 00:44:29,920 --> 00:44:35,560 Speaker 1: seems to work so well for our spatially inclined brains. Uh. There, 752 00:44:35,719 --> 00:44:38,719 Speaker 1: we have a friend of the show, uh goes by 753 00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:42,799 Speaker 1: p K who runs kingle Lux Records out of Canada. Yeah, 754 00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:47,040 Speaker 1: he's involved in a project to build a virtual space 755 00:44:47,080 --> 00:44:52,120 Speaker 1: station for like, you know, for sort of artistic musical purposes. 756 00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:55,600 Speaker 1: And he'll occasionally seen send me some some videos or 757 00:44:55,600 --> 00:44:58,919 Speaker 1: some information on the project, and I see those and 758 00:44:58,920 --> 00:45:01,800 Speaker 1: and some of the really beautiful imentry is going on there, 759 00:45:01,880 --> 00:45:04,200 Speaker 1: And as much as I can tell without being like 760 00:45:04,239 --> 00:45:07,000 Speaker 1: hooked into some sort of VR rig, it seems very 761 00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:11,120 Speaker 1: immersive to whoever is controlling these characters. So so those 762 00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:13,799 Speaker 1: those videos, when I when I view them, it does 763 00:45:13,960 --> 00:45:16,480 Speaker 1: make me think about how we're going to make use 764 00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:18,920 Speaker 1: of that territory. And I feel like maybe we're gonna 765 00:45:18,920 --> 00:45:23,040 Speaker 1: make use of that territory in ways that we can't 766 00:45:23,080 --> 00:45:25,600 Speaker 1: connect to all that much now, but we can look 767 00:45:25,640 --> 00:45:30,080 Speaker 1: back to our use of purely spatial memory in the 768 00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:33,480 Speaker 1: past and see and see some sort of hint of 769 00:45:33,520 --> 00:45:35,560 Speaker 1: where we're going. Yeah, I think it would be nice 770 00:45:35,600 --> 00:45:37,759 Speaker 1: to see your return to that. I remember when I 771 00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:41,200 Speaker 1: was working at the university, I worked out here in town. 772 00:45:41,320 --> 00:45:45,279 Speaker 1: There was maybe like a six month window there where 773 00:45:45,320 --> 00:45:49,279 Speaker 1: they were super hyped up about Second life, and they 774 00:45:49,320 --> 00:45:54,000 Speaker 1: built an actual like version of the university in second 775 00:45:54,040 --> 00:45:57,279 Speaker 1: life where students, because they thought second life was going 776 00:45:57,320 --> 00:46:00,640 Speaker 1: to be like the next big thing, uh, they had like, 777 00:46:00,920 --> 00:46:03,120 Speaker 1: you know, students could go there and like interact with 778 00:46:03,239 --> 00:46:05,239 Speaker 1: f a Q forums and stuff like that. But not 779 00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:08,400 Speaker 1: only that, but they had like a Greek lecture hall 780 00:46:08,560 --> 00:46:12,640 Speaker 1: set up where theoretically a professor could come in there 781 00:46:12,680 --> 00:46:17,600 Speaker 1: with their avatar and give a presentation to all of 782 00:46:17,640 --> 00:46:20,880 Speaker 1: the second life avatars of students that were there. So 783 00:46:21,080 --> 00:46:23,440 Speaker 1: if you get that far and you're sort of just 784 00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:26,120 Speaker 1: taking the real world analogy and applying it into the 785 00:46:26,200 --> 00:46:29,480 Speaker 1: virtual world, I would imagine then when you get to 786 00:46:29,480 --> 00:46:33,480 Speaker 1: the spatial reasoning, uh, that you would say, hey, this 787 00:46:33,560 --> 00:46:36,400 Speaker 1: is actually here's a far better way for us to 788 00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:39,480 Speaker 1: do this. Let's build the university as a memory palace 789 00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:43,040 Speaker 1: rather than just like you know, have your little avatar 790 00:46:43,080 --> 00:46:45,760 Speaker 1: go and sit down on a fake bench or something 791 00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:50,440 Speaker 1: and watch an avatar deliver a presentation to you. Well, 792 00:46:50,480 --> 00:46:54,719 Speaker 1: you know, uh, we only have a limited knowledge of 793 00:46:54,800 --> 00:46:57,520 Speaker 1: virtual worlds out there. But I know that listeners of 794 00:46:57,560 --> 00:47:01,200 Speaker 1: the show have been out there explore worring. Perhaps that 795 00:47:01,239 --> 00:47:04,000 Speaker 1: you have some examples of of the of the Mando 796 00:47:04,040 --> 00:47:06,640 Speaker 1: law or other constructures that have been recreated in the 797 00:47:06,719 --> 00:47:09,400 Speaker 1: virtual world, maybe even in Minecraft. I didn't even think 798 00:47:09,440 --> 00:47:13,000 Speaker 1: about Minecraft, would be perfectly right. Yeah, you're right. Um, 799 00:47:13,040 --> 00:47:15,560 Speaker 1: that's interesting. So we would love to hear about any 800 00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:19,080 Speaker 1: of those examples or just your general thoughts on Tibetan art, 801 00:47:19,560 --> 00:47:22,080 Speaker 1: virtual reality, or the Memory Palace. Really, this is an 802 00:47:22,080 --> 00:47:26,240 Speaker 1: episode that opens itself up to various interpretations and tidbits 803 00:47:26,280 --> 00:47:28,560 Speaker 1: from your personal life. Yeah, you can hit us up 804 00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:34,080 Speaker 1: with information about that on Facebook, Twitter, Tumbler, or Instagram, 805 00:47:34,239 --> 00:47:36,800 Speaker 1: and you can always go and visit us at stuff 806 00:47:36,840 --> 00:47:39,520 Speaker 1: to Blow your Mind dot com. That's where we've got 807 00:47:40,120 --> 00:47:43,000 Speaker 1: me and everything, all of the podcasts, all the videos 808 00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:47,239 Speaker 1: that we've done, blog posts galore. Uh, it is full 809 00:47:47,239 --> 00:47:50,040 Speaker 1: of stuff, including links back to those social media accounts. Yeah, 810 00:47:50,040 --> 00:47:52,000 Speaker 1: and I'll make sure the landing page for this episode 811 00:47:52,000 --> 00:47:53,919 Speaker 1: includes links to some of the bits that we've talked 812 00:47:53,920 --> 00:47:57,600 Speaker 1: about here, including sky Burial, the previous Memory Palette episode, 813 00:47:58,080 --> 00:48:01,640 Speaker 1: and in any other little bits of related information in 814 00:48:01,680 --> 00:48:04,600 Speaker 1: the pop shop over the years, and as always you 815 00:48:04,600 --> 00:48:17,880 Speaker 1: can email us at Blow the Mind how Stuff Works 816 00:48:17,880 --> 00:48:20,319 Speaker 1: for more on this and thousands of other topics. Is 817 00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:44,400 Speaker 1: that how stuff Works dot com