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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 1: compelling true crimes, and I.

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Speaker 2: Weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring new insights

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Speaker 2: to old mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 2: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is buried bones.

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Speaker 2: Hey, Paul, Hi, Kate, you're wearing your glasses today.

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Speaker 1: I know my eyes were itchy and I just couldn't

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Speaker 1: do the context today. Don't shame me, listeners, Sometimes I

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Speaker 1: can't do it. So I was thinking about you and

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Speaker 1: your white jacket role at Authorm, which I know you

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Speaker 1: don't wear a white jacket when you're there, but that's

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Speaker 1: how I picture you. Oh geez, And I wanted to

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Speaker 1: ask you a little bit about what is the evolution

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Speaker 1: of forensics? Where are we heading? I always keep thinking, oh,

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Speaker 1: DNA is going to get better and better DNA analysis

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Speaker 1: will get more accurate. There has to be something sexier

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Speaker 1: than that. And I know that evolving DNA and getting

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Speaker 1: better at the analysis of DNA is important, But is

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Speaker 1: there anything else that you can talk to that that

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Speaker 1: is improving with time that we're going to be able

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Speaker 1: to use to solve crimes.

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Speaker 2: Well, you know, a lot of forensics over the years,

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Speaker 2: you know, there has been somewhat of an evolution, no

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Speaker 2: matter what type of forensic discipline that you're talking about.

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Speaker 2: Of course, god, it may have been even over a

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Speaker 2: year ago. You know, we've talked about how some of

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Speaker 2: the forensic sciences have you know, sort of taken a

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Speaker 2: back seat. They in some instance has just been completely discredited.

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Speaker 2: In others the conclusions that could be drawn from them

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Speaker 2: have been shown relatively weak. And then we're seeing today,

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Speaker 2: you know, I think, of course, starting with Golden State Killer,

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Speaker 2: sort of the huge revolution of the use of genealogy

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Speaker 2: to solve cases, and that's something that is going to

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Speaker 2: continue to move forward. The reality is is that the

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Speaker 2: types of samples that you deal with from cases, whether

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Speaker 2: they're collected at a crime scene or collected from the

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Speaker 2: victim's body, are often very poor samples, and so really

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Speaker 2: a lot of the advancement over the last six years

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Speaker 2: has been with the technology to be able to detect very,

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Speaker 2: very minute amounts of DNA, even if it's highly highly degraded.

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Speaker 2: And so that's where some cases where you think we

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Speaker 2: just don't have any thing today, we have the tools

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Speaker 2: to be able to at least generate the DNA profile.

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Speaker 2: I think, you know, across the board, the computerization that

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Speaker 2: has occurred over the course of the last three decades

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Speaker 2: or so, that's also been contributing to the advancement of

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Speaker 2: these various scientific disciplines. And of course the utilization of

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Speaker 2: artificial intelligence AI is something that I think is inescapable

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Speaker 2: to be applied to select aspects of forensics as we

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Speaker 2: move forward, whether that is helping automate the genealogy process,

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Speaker 2: or it's helping to put objective assessments of comparative sciences

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Speaker 2: and remove sort of the human bias you know that

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Speaker 2: might be present, and I could kind of see where

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Speaker 2: there may be movement that's not around the corner, but

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Speaker 2: it may be here sooner than later as time goes on.

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Speaker 2: Of course, just you can't talk about forensics without including

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Speaker 2: high tech. You know, I was on the early forefront

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Speaker 2: of high tech doing kind of a very rudimentary form

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Speaker 2: of that back in the late nineteen nineties, and then

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Speaker 2: had a criminalist assigned to the FBI's r CFL, their

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Speaker 2: Regional Computer Forensic Laboratory, and it just happened to be

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Speaker 2: the Silicon Valley site there in the Bay Area. And

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Speaker 2: I had started that back in the mid two thousands,

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Speaker 2: you know, And it's just recognizing that the pervasive aspect

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Speaker 2: of technology in our lives is a form of physical evidence.

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Speaker 2: It's not just the data of it, it's the hardware.

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Speaker 2: And as time goes on, you know, the public laboratories

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Speaker 2: and the public, you know, the law enforcement investigators, they're

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Speaker 2: just going to get better and better tools to be

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Speaker 2: able to utilize that type of evidence to help solve cases.

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Speaker 1: I had wondered, will there ever be a movement to

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Speaker 1: go through and correctly preserve evidence that is X number

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Speaker 1: of years old in cold case files across the country,

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Speaker 1: because you know, you and I talk about, oh, there

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Speaker 1: probably is biological evidence in this case from nineteen thirty

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Speaker 1: or something, particularly like a sexual assault case, but lord

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Speaker 1: knows how it's been preserved is there any kind of

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Speaker 1: an idea that this might be a good idea to

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Speaker 1: go and like correctly preserve this, not go through and

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Speaker 1: run DNA on everything, but at least preserve it so

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Speaker 1: that if money becomes available to these different departments, that

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Speaker 1: it would be you know, preserved correctly.

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Speaker 2: Well, in many instances that has happened. Okay, you know departments,

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Speaker 2: as they've you know, improved their property storage, improved their

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Speaker 2: property management, they've expanded their freezer storage, and the known

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Speaker 2: biological evidence is being put into freezers. Now, this is

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Speaker 2: not universal. In California, we had a case law people

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Speaker 2: versus Nation like nineteen eighty one eighty three timeframe which

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Speaker 2: in essence mandated law enforcement to start preserving biological evidence

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Speaker 2: in a proper way in terms of how it's packaged

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Speaker 2: as well as being in a refrigerated or frozen state.

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Speaker 2: So California, that's been going on for some time, and

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Speaker 2: that mandated departments large and small to start buying freezers

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Speaker 2: to start putting their evidence in there. Now, there are

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Speaker 2: departments that have gone you know, they get a cold

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Speaker 2: case investigator and he or she ends up going through

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Speaker 2: the evidence and now is saying, oh, this evidence a

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Speaker 2: sexual assault kit that's been you know, sitting out here

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Speaker 2: at room temperature you know, four years, needs to go

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Speaker 2: into a freezer. That type of thing does happen from

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Speaker 2: time to time. But I can think of even with

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Speaker 2: my old department. You know, there's old, old cases, commicide

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Speaker 2: cases in which there's bulky evidence things like clothing, jackets, mattresses, pillows,

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Speaker 2: sheets that you know, if they were to try to

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Speaker 2: put that into a freezer, they would rapidly run out

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Speaker 2: a freezer space. Yet those items could have biological evidence

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Speaker 2: that could solve the case. So you're you're kind of

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Speaker 2: stuck because you can't, realistically in the public sector by

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Speaker 2: a walk in freezer the size of a huge warehouse

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Speaker 2: to store all your bulky items in a frozen state

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Speaker 2: to preserve what might be present on there.

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Speaker 1: Well, I wanted to get you talking about forensics because

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Speaker 1: we have virtually no forensics in this story.

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Speaker 2: That was a bait and switch.

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Speaker 1: Well, I wanted to get it over with because I

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Speaker 1: know you missed the forensics part of this and this

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Speaker 1: is all victimology. And really what I'm going to try

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Speaker 1: to do is see as we move along, who is

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Speaker 1: the likely victim and who is the likely killer in

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Speaker 1: this scenario. In what I feel like is a very

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Speaker 1: complicated situation between several people, I will tell you this

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Speaker 1: is a story of three Emmas. Getting your pencil out,

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Speaker 1: I have.

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Speaker 2: To write this down. I'm A one, M A two,

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Speaker 2: and M A three. Huh.

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Speaker 1: Hey, that's what Marin did. Yes, and instead, because I

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Speaker 1: don't want to drive myself crazy with MM one, MMA two,

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Speaker 1: and m A three. It turns out that two out

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Speaker 1: of the three Emas actually had nicknames, so we're going

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Speaker 1: to go with their nicknames. So I just wanted you

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Speaker 1: to know that these are all three women named Emma,

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Speaker 1: and they are at the center of a really nasty story.

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Speaker 1: So let's go take a trip down to the great

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Speaker 1: state of Texas where I live, and let's set the

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Speaker 1: scene San Antonio. You know San Antonio, right.

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Speaker 2: I do. Actually I live there from fifth through the

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Speaker 2: seventh grade.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So this is nineteen tens, San Antonio, and this

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Speaker 1: happens in nineteen fourteen. Santa is the biggest city in

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Speaker 1: the state in this time period. In the decade of

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Speaker 1: the nineteen tens, the city is really exploding with its

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Speaker 1: population and the residents are wonderfully diverse, the US military

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Speaker 1: has opened flight training centers around this time period, and

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Speaker 1: there's an influx of pilots in San Antonio and a

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Speaker 1: lot of them go on to serve in World War One,

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Speaker 1: which will happen in just a few years. And on

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Speaker 1: top of that, there is a great community made up

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Speaker 1: of various cultures. On the heels of the Mexican Revolution.

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Speaker 1: We have a lot of Mexican immigrants in the city,

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Speaker 1: and there's a strong European presence, large German population, a

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Speaker 1: growing number of black residents also. So this is I

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Speaker 1: hate using the term melting pot because it feels generic,

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Speaker 1: but this really is a lot of people. It almost

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Speaker 1: feels like Gilded Age Manhattan to me, where there are

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Speaker 1: a lot of people living in a big city but

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Speaker 1: also closely together at the same time, which, as we know,

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Speaker 1: can be wonderful and it can also be tension filled.

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Speaker 1: And we've had those stories too.

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Speaker 2: Sure, you know, when you mentioned German population, all of

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Speaker 2: a sudden, I just had memories rush back into my

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Speaker 2: head about it's called the beer fest.

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Speaker 1: Is that uh huh? Yeah, it's a like worst fest, yes.

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Speaker 2: For sure, you know, and going down there and enjoying

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Speaker 2: the German food and you know as a kid, it

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Speaker 2: was probably just their their brought worst or whatever it was,

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Speaker 2: but you know it was good.

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Speaker 1: You have just I don't know how you do this

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Speaker 1: every time. You have just foreshadowed this story just with

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Speaker 1: the beer in German. You did it.

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Speaker 2: Well, there you go. Okay.

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Speaker 1: The main family that we're talking about is the Kayler

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Speaker 1: family and it's spelled k O e h l e R.

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Speaker 1: And the patriarch is Auto. He is a German immigrant.

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Speaker 1: He and his wife Emma live in San Antonio and

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Speaker 1: they are multi millionaires. We've talked about millionaires over and

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Speaker 1: over again. I feel like the last few stories we've

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Speaker 1: done are on multi millionaires. But I think these are

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Speaker 1: the first brewers that we've had on the show. Auto

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Speaker 1: runs a brewery called the San Antonio Brewing Association, which

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Speaker 1: produces a beer that they've called Pearl Beer. And it's

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Speaker 1: the largest, you know, brewery in Texas at the time.

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Speaker 1: And Pearl now is like a multi use section of

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Speaker 1: San Antonio. There's a great bookstore there. You know, it's

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Speaker 1: this great like segment of San Antonio and you can

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Speaker 1: go and there's wonderful restaurants and stuff. So I was

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Speaker 1: familiar with Pearl. When I read the story, I did

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Speaker 1: not know the origin of the story. So Atto Kaylor

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Speaker 1: and his wife live in San Antonio. He runs this brewery.

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Speaker 1: He is involved in mining and banking in real estate,

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Speaker 1: and they have just a huge amount of money. Things

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Speaker 1: take a turn in their family around nineteen ten, and

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Speaker 1: really the center of the story starts four years later.

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Speaker 1: But this is important. His wife, Emma, is involved in

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Speaker 1: a serious accident and it sounds like it was a

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Speaker 1: car accident, but I don't have any real confirmation of that.

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Speaker 1: But she needs a caregiver. Auto winds up hiring a

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Speaker 1: twenty something nurse from Germany to look after Emma. Her

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Speaker 1: name is Emma. Her full name is Emma Doomkey, but

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Speaker 1: you know we can call her Emmy. That's also a nickname,

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Speaker 1: so we're gonna go with Emmy. So Emma, the wife

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Speaker 1: is in a car accident and needs kind of full

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Speaker 1: time care. So Auto wants to hire a nurse and

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Speaker 1: he hires Emmy. Are you clear on this? Now? We've

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Speaker 1: got two Emmas, but it's really an Emma and an Emmy.

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Speaker 2: Paul, yep, I've got Emma. Emmy. Emma needs a caregiver.

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Speaker 2: Is the wife of Auto, and Emmy is a twenty

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Speaker 2: seven year old female who's the nurse that's going to

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Speaker 2: care for Emma.

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Speaker 1: Twenty something but probably twenty seven is a pretty good choice,

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Speaker 1: pretty estimation. So Emma and Emmy become close friends. But

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Speaker 1: as I know what happens times, Emmy and Auto have

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Speaker 1: a romantic relationship behind Emma's back, to a point where

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Speaker 1: he even buys a small house for her that's not

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Speaker 1: too far away from his house. The optics are pretty bad,

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Speaker 1: I think for Auto at this point, he has a

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Speaker 1: lot of money, his wife is bedridden, and he's having

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Speaker 1: an affair with the nurse, which is a story that's

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Speaker 1: very old.

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Speaker 2: I mean this happens, yeah, and he has resources in

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Speaker 2: order to be able to, you know, kind of set

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Speaker 2: up a love shack.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, bungalow, love shack. I don't know if they had

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Speaker 1: love shacks back in nineteen ten, but there's like a

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Speaker 1: love bungalow maybe, I don't know. Little house, a little

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Speaker 1: house around the corner. So Emmy decides that she needs

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Speaker 1: a roommate. Another problem here. Her name is also Emma,

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Speaker 1: but we're going with her nickname, which is Heta, so

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Speaker 1: Heda Bergemeister, and she is an attractive blonde is how

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Speaker 1: she's described in her early thirties. She is also so German,

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Speaker 1: and she is a nurse, and so Auto hires her

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Speaker 1: as an additional member of his wife's care team. So

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Speaker 1: now we've got these two attractive women working with Emma,

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Speaker 1: and Auto is very busy, of course, So I don't

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Speaker 1: know why. I think in nineteen ten this would have

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Speaker 1: never happened, but it does. The three of these people

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Speaker 1: are now in a relationship. Heta, the last nurse, Emmy,

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Speaker 1: and then Auto all behind Emma's back. They're all in

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Speaker 1: a relationship that seems sort of more transactional than romantic transactional,

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Speaker 1: I think, in meaning Auto is paying them and he

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Speaker 1: gets to have sex with them, and that is that.

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Speaker 2: And do you know, do Emmy and head to know

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Speaker 2: that Auto is engaging with both of them?

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Speaker 1: Oh? Yeah, okay, for sure.

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Speaker 2: So this is this is open and understood.

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Speaker 1: Open and understood. He deeds the small house to both

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Speaker 1: of these women, so now they're sharing the house and

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Speaker 1: they own it, and he gives them a generous monthly

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Speaker 1: stipend and in return. This is the Houston Chronicle newspaper

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Speaker 1: trying to be polite. In return. The chronicle says that

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Speaker 1: Auto is able to drop by once a week or

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Speaker 1: so for two or three hours for whatever he wants

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Speaker 1: to do. So, he is able to have two girlfriends,

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Speaker 1: he pays for a house, and he's getting nursing care

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Speaker 1: for his wife out of this. This does not seem

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Speaker 1: like a good setup for something. I don't know how

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Speaker 1: long this kind of a relationship can last. What do

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Speaker 1: you think about all this? I mean, this is not

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Speaker 1: a great and you know word true crime show. Somebody's

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Speaker 1: dead here?

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Speaker 2: Well, you know, I think, you know, this is where

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Speaker 2: we get into this relationship Auto, Emmy and Heta. At

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Speaker 2: some point, are there feelings that develop between Auto and Emmy,

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Speaker 2: or feelings that develop between Auto and Heta, or even

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Speaker 2: Emmy and Heada that can cause a level of jealousy

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Speaker 2: with the others that are part of this triangle, right,

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Speaker 2: you know, I think just from you know, a human

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Speaker 2: nature aspect at some point that potentially could come into play,

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Speaker 2: you know, And of course with those types of emotions

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Speaker 2: can often breed a level of isolence. So I'll see

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Speaker 2: how this develops.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to show you a photo first of Auto

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Speaker 1: and Emma his wife. I mean, is this guy on

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Speaker 1: the right who you're picturing having two girlfriends around the

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Speaker 1: corner from his wife who is bedridden.

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Speaker 2: Well, you know that photo makes him look very distinguished

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Speaker 2: and wealthy, you know, so I could see where, you know,

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Speaker 2: two younger women could potentially be whether or not they

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Speaker 2: find him the most physically attractive man, but most certainly

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Speaker 2: his status, if you want to put it that way,

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Speaker 2: may increase their draw to him. His wife, Emma, she

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Speaker 2: looks I mean, she looks close to elderly. She looks

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Speaker 2: like Grandma in that photo she is. Yeah, But then

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Speaker 2: I take it this as Emmy and Heda.

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Speaker 1: So Heada's an upper left and Emmy's in the center.

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Speaker 1: And I have not told you yet what's happening with

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Speaker 1: any of these people, but obviously there's a pretty big

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Speaker 1: difference between these two young women and his wife. I

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Speaker 1: feel like I just continue to be surprised by this

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Speaker 1: sort of scandalous thing happening in nineteen ten, which it

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Speaker 1: is silly, scandalous things happened so far back, but I

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Speaker 1: just felt like this was a little surprising to me

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Speaker 1: for some reason. But let's go through this. So this

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Speaker 1: arrangement seems to be fine. This happens for at least

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Speaker 1: a few years. So he is paying them to take

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Speaker 1: care of his wife. He is paying them to basically

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Speaker 1: be able to have sex with them a couple of

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Speaker 1: times a week, it sounds like, and they own a

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Speaker 1: house that he's given them. I don't know, I mean

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Speaker 1: a couple of years. That's a long time, yeah, But.

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Speaker 2: Over the course of years, I mean, you have you know,

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Speaker 2: just in relationships, the early part of the relationship is

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Speaker 2: what we often refer to as the honeymoon period, right,

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Speaker 2: you know, everybody's feeling good, emotions are high, you're in love.

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Speaker 2: Who knows with with Auto and Emmy and head to

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Speaker 2: if love is even a factor in this, As you

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Speaker 2: mentioned earlier, this may be strictly transactional on both sides.

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Speaker 2: They're benefiting through financial assets. They've gotten a house, he's

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Speaker 2: giving them a stipend. They're steadily employed. He's benefiting. He's

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Speaker 2: got these younger women that he's able to come over

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Speaker 2: and have sex with. And you know, it may be

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Speaker 2: just that, but also you know, jealousies, the emotions can develop,

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Speaker 2: you know, and it may not necessarily be somebody falls

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Speaker 2: in love with somebody else it may be where now

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Speaker 2: maybe Emmy is thinking that Head is getting more of

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Speaker 2: Auto's financial attention and now gets upset about that, or

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Speaker 2: vice versa. You know, different things can happen over the

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Speaker 2: course as the honeymoon period it fades, and now other

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Speaker 2: things are being looked at and some things go stale,

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Speaker 2: and you know, it's just this is all part of

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Speaker 2: any relationship.

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Speaker 1: We're talking about a fifty five year old man who

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Speaker 1: isn't involved with a woman in her thirties, and then

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Speaker 1: a woman in her twenties. Now things get a little complicated.

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Speaker 1: And you could tell me, based on everybody's reactions what

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Speaker 1: you think this means. Everything seems to go okay as

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Speaker 1: far as we can tell, for a couple of years

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Speaker 1: with this arrangement, it doesn't sound like Emma the wife

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Speaker 1: knows they have a really big house. Still, he's so

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Speaker 1: safe that he puts these two women in a separate

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Speaker 1: house to make sure they aren't caught, even though, no joke,

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Speaker 1: this is a massive house. They probably could have had

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Speaker 1: privacy anywhere, but I suppose he's being extra careful. A

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Speaker 1: couple of years after this arrangement starts, Emmy, the very

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Speaker 1: first nurse tells Otto that she is getting married and

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Speaker 1: she is dumping him. She has had enough. She gets

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Speaker 1: married and becomes Emmy Dunkey Dauschel, and she moves to

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Speaker 1: Saint Louis with her new husband, and we are in

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Speaker 1: San Antonio, so she clears out, she leaves. In response, now,

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Speaker 1: I need you to be a man.

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Speaker 2: So I'm not a man until you tell me you

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Speaker 2: need me to be a man.

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Speaker 1: No, I need you to think like a man. I

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Speaker 1: don't want you to think like mister investigator, think like

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Speaker 1: a guy.

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Speaker 2: Okay he Auto, in.

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Speaker 1: Response, decides to propose to heat the second nurse. He

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Speaker 1: is married to Emma. Still she is alive. They've been

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Speaker 1: married for two decades. It sounds like Auto might actually

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Speaker 1: have more emotional stake in these relationships than the women do.

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Speaker 1: Why would he do that, He's already married, and he

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Speaker 1: proposed maybe to stop her from leaving.

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Speaker 2: Maybe, well it seems odd, but you know, I kinda

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Speaker 2: take a look. He's been a relationship with Emmy, if

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Speaker 2: you will. And then she obviously was seeing somebody to

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Speaker 2: a point to where she developed emotions and was proposed

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Speaker 2: to and agreed to marry this other man. And you know,

364
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Speaker 2: Auto may not have been completely clueless that this this

365
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Speaker 2: other man existed. So I can see where he felt

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Speaker 2: some sort of attachment, but it's not necessarily like a

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Speaker 2: you know, I love you, I want to marry you

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Speaker 2: type of attachment to Emmy. But in many ways Auto

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Speaker 2: may be feeling rejected, you know, because he's been coming over,

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Speaker 2: he's been taking care of her financially, setting her up

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Speaker 2: in the house, being employed, and then now she's like, nope,

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Speaker 2: see him. So I can see where he could be

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Speaker 2: a little bit upset under those circumstances. I just don't

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Speaker 2: see where. Okay, Emmy's out of the picture, and so

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Speaker 2: that now frees him up to all of a sudden

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Speaker 2: develop some deep emotional connection to Heta. I also with

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Speaker 2: his business savvy, if you will, I wonder if marrying

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Speaker 2: Heada would somehow, I mean Heada and Emmy share the

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Speaker 2: deed on this residence, you know, And is there some

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Speaker 2: sort of financial aspect that he's tried to protect, you know,

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Speaker 2: by marrying Heada. I don't know, but I'm not even

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Speaker 2: sure how during this era, how would the courts permit

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Speaker 2: him to marry Heada if he is still legally married

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Speaker 2: to Emma.

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Speaker 1: I don't think they would, and I think that a

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Speaker 1: divorce is well, certainly a divorce was more difficult in

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Speaker 1: nineteen fourteen than it would have been, you know now,

388
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Speaker 1: it would have been difficult. My mom and I were

389
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Speaker 1: just talking about and it's not a great conversation to have,

390
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Speaker 1: I guess, but about people who just go from relationship

391
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Speaker 1: to relationship. They don't want to be alone and they

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Speaker 1: don't want to break up their pattern. I wondered if

393
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Speaker 1: he was so used to having one of those two

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Speaker 1: women or both old women available to him, that he

395
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Speaker 1: sort of freaked and didn't want to change anything. Probably

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Speaker 1: somebody who has made that amount of money. And remember

397
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Speaker 1: what I told you what he did for a living.

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Speaker 1: He was in banking and mining estate deals. He had

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Speaker 1: this brewery. This is someone who was on a very

400
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Speaker 1: specific schedule. I mean, he was accomplishing thing after thing.

401
00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:11,440
Speaker 1: He had to stay organized. And I wonder if he thought,

402
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Speaker 1: with Emmy leaving, that maybe Heda would fall in love

403
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Speaker 1: with someone and leave, and then would he ever find

404
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Speaker 1: this relationship with sorry to say, two hot young women.

405
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Speaker 1: Ever Again, probably not. I mean, maybe he was desperate.

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Speaker 2: No, I think that's that's a fair way to look

407
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Speaker 2: at it from a man's perspective, an aging man perspective.

408
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Speaker 2: So here you go, I'm giving you a guy perspective

409
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Speaker 2: if you will. I mean, Auto is in essence my age,

410
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Speaker 2: you know, so you look so much.

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Speaker 1: Younger, though, Paul, I have to say nineteen fourteen was

412
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Speaker 1: rough on men. I think he looks like he's in.

413
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Speaker 3: His six in his mid to late sixties to me, yeah,

414
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Speaker 3: you know, and that's well, that's an interesting aspect when

415
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Speaker 3: you look at photos of individuals from this time and

416
00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:02,480
Speaker 3: they look so much older than what their age actually is.

417
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Speaker 2: You know. But I'm just thinking, you know, the insecurities

418
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Speaker 2: as a guy when you get older, you know, and

419
00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:12,199
Speaker 2: now it's like, oh, I am losing I'm never going

420
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Speaker 2: to get the chance again to have this type of

421
00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:17,520
Speaker 2: relationship that he Auto is obviously enjoying over the course

422
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Speaker 2: of several years. And so maybe he is latching onto

423
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Speaker 2: Heda just to preserve that aspect.

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Speaker 1: I just in nineteen fourteen, don't see quote unquote proper women,

425
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Speaker 1: professional women like a nurse or something being willing to

426
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Speaker 1: do this. He gets to see them in the house,

427
00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:36,679
Speaker 1: maybe he gets to sneak a little you know, nookie

428
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Speaker 1: with him while they're in the house everyone, So it's

429
00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:42,600
Speaker 1: very convenient for Auto. And when this is fifty percent

430
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Speaker 1: of his resource, here is left. I think he springs

431
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Speaker 1: this question on Heda. Now she says, hell no, and

432
00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:53,480
Speaker 1: she sounds like very sweet. Actually, she sounds like a

433
00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:57,119
Speaker 1: nice woman. She said, missus Kaylor is a sick woman,

434
00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:02,480
Speaker 1: and I would never leave her behind, meaning like I

435
00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:05,000
Speaker 1: would not go and marry you and let you ditch

436
00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:08,720
Speaker 1: her when she's sick and helpless. She is not professing

437
00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:11,080
Speaker 1: her love for Auto and saying I really wish I

438
00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:13,560
Speaker 1: could marry you. What she's saying is this is not

439
00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:16,120
Speaker 1: practical and this is not nice to do to your wife.

440
00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:17,880
Speaker 1: So she said no to him. She turned him down.

441
00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:20,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, but she still does have benefit by

442
00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:25,160
Speaker 2: maintaining the financial relationship with Auto. And I'm wondering, even

443
00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:26,879
Speaker 2: though she's saying no, I don't want to marry you,

444
00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:29,600
Speaker 2: is there still going to be this, for lack of

445
00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:34,040
Speaker 2: a better term, conjugal aspect to their relationship or is

446
00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:38,120
Speaker 2: she just going nope, I'm cutting you off completely from

447
00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:40,560
Speaker 2: any type of physical interaction.

448
00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:45,879
Speaker 1: Now, that's the short answer. She is hopeful that he

449
00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:49,080
Speaker 1: wants to continue this financial arrangement and he is happy.

450
00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:49,159
Speaker 2: To do it.

451
00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:53,120
Speaker 1: Now we come to the time where we are going

452
00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:56,520
Speaker 1: to have a killer and a victim and also trying

453
00:25:56,560 --> 00:25:59,560
Speaker 1: to figure out, you know, what the motive is here.

454
00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:05,040
Speaker 1: It's November twelfth, nineteen fourteen. Emmy is back, so now

455
00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:08,840
Speaker 1: their little trio is complete. She wants to go visit Heda.

456
00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:12,000
Speaker 1: She's married though, and Auto is slated to stop by

457
00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:16,000
Speaker 1: Heada's little house that same evening like he does often.

458
00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:20,000
Speaker 1: So this has, you know, continued on. It sounds like

459
00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:22,560
Speaker 1: Auto was fine with not being able to marry her,

460
00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:26,240
Speaker 1: but that you know, as long as this arrangement continues,

461
00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:29,920
Speaker 1: that he was happy. So some of the newspaper reports

462
00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:33,360
Speaker 1: said that he owed head To some money. I don't

463
00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:35,720
Speaker 1: know if that was just like her monthly allowance. I

464
00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:38,800
Speaker 1: know she got an allowance and she got paid. But

465
00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:41,840
Speaker 1: he was going to stop by because of that and

466
00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:45,080
Speaker 1: probably for sex, we don't know. So Emmy is home

467
00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:48,920
Speaker 1: at her old house, Heada is home and Auto comes

468
00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:52,560
Speaker 1: between four o'clock and five o'clock. Shortly after he arrives,

469
00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:58,520
Speaker 1: there are three gunshots heard from the house, so neighbors

470
00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:03,720
Speaker 1: rush over and locate who the victim is at this point,

471
00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:06,639
Speaker 1: this could be one of three people. I mean, I

472
00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:08,840
Speaker 1: think the only one is who is safe in this

473
00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:11,800
Speaker 1: scenario is Emma, the wife who's at home in bed.

474
00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:15,000
Speaker 1: But you've got the woman who left who he might

475
00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:17,320
Speaker 1: have feelings for, who dumped him. You've got the woman

476
00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:19,879
Speaker 1: who turned down his marriage proposal. And then you have Auto,

477
00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:23,440
Speaker 1: who clearly is this sleazy man who is you know,

478
00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:26,000
Speaker 1: in hopes of controlling these women to a certain extent.

479
00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:28,080
Speaker 1: So if you were a betting man, and I have

480
00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:30,040
Speaker 1: no idea if you are, who would you think the

481
00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:33,000
Speaker 1: victim is in this situation? Three shots?

482
00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:36,359
Speaker 2: When you say who is the victim? I mean, is

483
00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:38,000
Speaker 2: there a chance that there's victims?

484
00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:38,600
Speaker 1: Maybe?

485
00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:41,720
Speaker 2: You know? On one hand, like you say the three

486
00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:45,879
Speaker 2: gun shots, I mean I could see a murder suicide

487
00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:49,480
Speaker 2: Auto and Emmy. I could see murder suicide Auto and Heda.

488
00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:52,640
Speaker 2: You know, okay, if I were to bet and part

489
00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:56,040
Speaker 2: of this is just being you know, the bias is

490
00:27:56,880 --> 00:28:00,240
Speaker 2: Bado's the shooter and he could be taking both these

491
00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:04,840
Speaker 2: women out. There could be as I mentioned before, the

492
00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:07,800
Speaker 2: feeling of rejection with Emmy, there may be a financial

493
00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:10,040
Speaker 2: aspect with her running off with this other man, but

494
00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:14,000
Speaker 2: also possessing, you know, fifty percent of the property he has.

495
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:19,280
Speaker 2: Heda just rejected him for marriage, and he may may

496
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:22,240
Speaker 2: be deciding that, you know what, it's time that this

497
00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:24,800
Speaker 2: comes to end. And if he feels that he can

498
00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:27,680
Speaker 2: somehow get away with taking out both these women, that

499
00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:31,040
Speaker 2: may preserve his social status, may preserve his financial assets

500
00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:33,359
Speaker 2: as long as he gets away with the crime. I

501
00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:36,240
Speaker 2: don't know. I think that's where I would lean, but

502
00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:39,880
Speaker 2: I think, you know, in this dynamic, just about any

503
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:43,760
Speaker 2: permutation of a crime in terms of somebody ending up

504
00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:45,240
Speaker 2: dead as possible.

505
00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:47,280
Speaker 1: Well, I like your guests, that's a good one, and

506
00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:50,200
Speaker 1: I think that that makes sense. When the neighbors come

507
00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:54,200
Speaker 1: after they hear the shots, they rush in and nobody's

508
00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:58,320
Speaker 1: around until they get to Heada's bedroom. Hedda is there

509
00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:02,760
Speaker 1: and Auto is is the person who was murdered. He

510
00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:06,800
Speaker 1: has been shot three times with a thirty two caliber revolver.

511
00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:11,440
Speaker 1: Hetta is discovered kneeling by Auto's body. She has a

512
00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:15,200
Speaker 1: self inflicted cut to her wrist, so the suggestion is

513
00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:17,960
Speaker 1: is that she was trying to die by suicide. There

514
00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:21,200
Speaker 1: is a bloody knife laying on the ground next to her,

515
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:26,720
Speaker 1: and two handguns are nearby. She tells the police, I'm sorry,

516
00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:29,600
Speaker 1: but I had to kill him. And this is where

517
00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:32,560
Speaker 1: the story gets complicated. If you thought a love affair

518
00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:34,880
Speaker 1: between two nurses who you're paying to come over a

519
00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:37,200
Speaker 1: couple times a week and your wife is bedridden was

520
00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:40,360
Speaker 1: not complicated enough, trying to figure out why she killed

521
00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:41,920
Speaker 1: this man is more complicated.

522
00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:47,960
Speaker 2: Huh. So, right now, this was a murder suicide where

523
00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:49,520
Speaker 2: the suicide attempt failed.

524
00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:55,840
Speaker 1: Right, Heda is immediately setting up a self defense defense here.

525
00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:58,840
Speaker 1: So first, let me tell you about the bullets. According

526
00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:02,160
Speaker 1: to reporting by these so she depressed. One bullet broke

527
00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:07,480
Speaker 1: his neck, another penetrated this skull just below the left eye,

528
00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:11,760
Speaker 1: and a third had entered his breast. It was a

529
00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:14,960
Speaker 1: I told you, thirty two caliber revolver. It was Heada's gun.

530
00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:17,520
Speaker 1: She carried a gun, and I did not know this,

531
00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:20,640
Speaker 1: but many, many, the majority of women carried guns in

532
00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:23,880
Speaker 1: this time period, which I don't know why I was surprised,

533
00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:26,000
Speaker 1: but I was. Yet again, I'm surprised by one of

534
00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:29,280
Speaker 1: our stories. So there's two guns, one is his and

535
00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:30,680
Speaker 1: one is heads.

536
00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:33,080
Speaker 2: And where would he normally carry his gun?

537
00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:37,360
Speaker 1: So it does not say where he got the gun from.

538
00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:40,640
Speaker 1: But he had a gun according to the women, on him,

539
00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:43,080
Speaker 1: and there's a gun there that doesn't belong to either

540
00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:45,200
Speaker 1: of them, and they've identified that belongs to Otto.

541
00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:48,720
Speaker 2: Okay, you know, so when you say that Hedda is

542
00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:51,720
Speaker 2: setting up a self defense, she's probably making statements that

543
00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:54,400
Speaker 2: he came into the room, he drew the gun, and

544
00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:57,480
Speaker 2: therefore she had to shoot him because he pointed the

545
00:30:57,520 --> 00:30:58,040
Speaker 2: gun at her.

546
00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:01,600
Speaker 1: It's a lot more physical than that. It's not that simple.

547
00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:05,520
Speaker 1: There is the discussion of the argument and he, they say,

548
00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:08,360
Speaker 1: becomes physical with the two of them, these two women,

549
00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:10,360
Speaker 1: and that's why it's self defense. And that's why she

550
00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:13,880
Speaker 1: said to police, I'm sorry, but I had to kill him.

551
00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:17,960
Speaker 1: So you know, we can talk about what happens next.

552
00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:20,640
Speaker 1: She is whisked off to a hospital because of the

553
00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:25,320
Speaker 1: wrist wound and put under police supervision. While her wounds

554
00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:29,000
Speaker 1: are tended to, she makes a full recovery. Emmy, who

555
00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:32,520
Speaker 1: was there, is put under surveillance, but she's never charged

556
00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:36,560
Speaker 1: with any crime related to Auto's death, so it's really

557
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:41,200
Speaker 1: all focused on Heda. According to the Houston Chronicle, the

558
00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:45,320
Speaker 1: Kayler family told one of the newspapers that there had

559
00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:49,680
Speaker 1: been a dispute over a bill that Heada had submitted

560
00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:53,240
Speaker 1: for Emma's care. Auto drove to the house to settle

561
00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:56,560
Speaker 1: the matter, and this is from his family's point of view.

562
00:31:56,680 --> 00:32:00,120
Speaker 1: When he and Heda started arguing, she got fright and

563
00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:04,360
Speaker 1: went for her gun. That's kind of what Hetta says

564
00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:07,560
Speaker 1: happened too. She says she killed him in self defense.

565
00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:12,400
Speaker 1: She said that Auto had been apparently choking Emmy. Emmy

566
00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:15,360
Speaker 1: says that she thought that Auto was going to shoot

567
00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:17,800
Speaker 1: her because he had a gun. I don't know at

568
00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:19,960
Speaker 1: what point we can call it self defense or not

569
00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:24,320
Speaker 1: when it's the only two people who survived are saying

570
00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:27,400
Speaker 1: that the victim is the one who was the aggressor.

571
00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:29,720
Speaker 1: So how do you even sort something like that out?

572
00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:32,760
Speaker 2: Well, this is you know, in terms of trying to

573
00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:38,920
Speaker 2: get you have two living individuals in this crime. Right,

574
00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:42,800
Speaker 2: Auto can't make statements, but Emmy and head It can

575
00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:46,440
Speaker 2: make statements. And of course it is going to be

576
00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:50,920
Speaker 2: dependent upon was there any cooperation and agreements made between

577
00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:53,120
Speaker 2: these two ahead of time? You know, was this a

578
00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:59,240
Speaker 2: planned homicide? However, once investigators arrive on scene or once

579
00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:02,160
Speaker 2: law enforcement rise on seeing those two absolutely have to

580
00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:06,120
Speaker 2: be separated and interviewed to try to determine, you know,

581
00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:10,200
Speaker 2: or lock in their statements early early on. But I know,

582
00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:14,120
Speaker 2: you know, we opened up this episode and saying, this

583
00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:18,960
Speaker 2: isn't a forensics case. Oh yes, it is, Oh okay,

584
00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:22,600
Speaker 2: because now we have to take a look at what

585
00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:27,280
Speaker 2: Heada is saying and what Emmy's saying, how you know

586
00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:30,280
Speaker 2: things went down, But also take a look at the

587
00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:34,280
Speaker 2: trajectories of the bullets. You know, where are they entering,

588
00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:38,320
Speaker 2: Is there any indications of distance on these wounds? What

589
00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:41,120
Speaker 2: is the the you know, the flight path you know

590
00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:46,080
Speaker 2: that these bullets took And do these trajectories and all

591
00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:49,520
Speaker 2: the other assorted firearms evidence line up with the statements

592
00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:52,920
Speaker 2: that HEADA and Emmy are saying, you know, so there

593
00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:57,120
Speaker 2: is a forensics component that could say, hold on, you're

594
00:33:57,160 --> 00:34:00,960
Speaker 2: saying you were standing over there and he's strangling Emmy

595
00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:03,440
Speaker 2: and so you took out your gun and shot him

596
00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:08,440
Speaker 2: or whatever the story is. Does that match up with

597
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:09,760
Speaker 2: the physical evidence?

598
00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:10,040
Speaker 3: You know?

599
00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:12,680
Speaker 2: So that's where you know, if I'm looking at this

600
00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:15,239
Speaker 2: case today, that's one of the things I would really

601
00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:16,080
Speaker 2: be keying in on.

602
00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:19,000
Speaker 1: One of the issues I think with this story. Also,

603
00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:21,120
Speaker 1: I mean, besides that, I don't have some of the

604
00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:24,200
Speaker 1: diagrams and everything that we're looking at here. We really

605
00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:26,960
Speaker 1: just have people's words and their descriptions what makes sense

606
00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:30,600
Speaker 1: and what doesn't. So it sounds like some of the

607
00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:34,080
Speaker 1: statements I think this must have been Emmy say that

608
00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:39,480
Speaker 1: that afternoon, Auto came in, rushed past Emmy in the

609
00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:42,800
Speaker 1: living room, and headed straight to Heada's bedroom. She was

610
00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:45,600
Speaker 1: laying on the bed with a cloth covering her eyes.

611
00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:48,400
Speaker 1: It sounds like he tried to kiss her and she

612
00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:52,680
Speaker 1: got mad. He threatens her and pulls out a gun

613
00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:56,319
Speaker 1: and she shoots him with this thirty two revolver. One

614
00:34:56,360 --> 00:34:58,239
Speaker 1: of the things the prosecutor is going to talk about

615
00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:01,960
Speaker 1: is how many shots she took and did she shoot

616
00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:04,600
Speaker 1: him when he was already on the ground. And I've

617
00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:07,000
Speaker 1: heard that in other cases too. That makes a difference, right,

618
00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:08,800
Speaker 1: Does that make a difference to jurors whether or not

619
00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:12,600
Speaker 1: it seems like the person has been incapacitated and you

620
00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:15,759
Speaker 1: continue shooting. Then it's like, all of a sudden, it's like,

621
00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:17,520
Speaker 1: oh no, that's not self defense. They were already on

622
00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:19,320
Speaker 1: the ground. What are you doing? Of course not, this

623
00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:20,080
Speaker 1: is malicious.

624
00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:23,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, it all depends on the circumstances, you know, And

625
00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:25,520
Speaker 2: I think you can make arguments in terms of, yes,

626
00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:29,319
Speaker 2: you've took it past self defense. You know, you've neutralized

627
00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:32,520
Speaker 2: the threat to the person's down on the ground. However,

628
00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:38,919
Speaker 2: you are likely dealing with a naive shooter. You don't

629
00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:41,480
Speaker 2: know if you've neutralized the threat or not, and so

630
00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:45,520
Speaker 2: now you continue to shoot, and it's not indicating that

631
00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:51,400
Speaker 2: it's wasn't initially that the shooting itself wasn't initially started

632
00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:54,919
Speaker 2: because of a self defense aspect, you know. So that's

633
00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:58,520
Speaker 2: it's almost like it's a follow through if you will,

634
00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:02,880
Speaker 2: you know. And that's that's really for prosecutors the DA's

635
00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:05,359
Speaker 2: when they're assessing a case on how to charge the case,

636
00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:08,400
Speaker 2: they are going to be assessing those types of human elements.

637
00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:12,520
Speaker 2: But you know, under that scenario where she's laying on

638
00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:14,719
Speaker 2: the bed and he comes up to kiss her and

639
00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:17,279
Speaker 2: they get mad, does she indicate while she's on the

640
00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:19,200
Speaker 2: bed and while he's that close to her, is when

641
00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:19,920
Speaker 2: she shoots him.

642
00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:22,759
Speaker 1: No, we're going to have to take a tiny, tiny

643
00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:26,719
Speaker 1: detour because she has shut up for now and she

644
00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:29,640
Speaker 1: has been charged with murder. The twist is she takes

645
00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:32,560
Speaker 1: off before the court date. She leaves and goes back

646
00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:37,359
Speaker 1: to Germany and she's gone. I know Heda, so listen

647
00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:40,759
Speaker 1: to I mean, these women, this is interesting. She has

648
00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:44,000
Speaker 1: gone for it looks like at least two to three years.

649
00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:47,319
Speaker 1: And because she's a nurse and it's World War One,

650
00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:53,040
Speaker 1: she tends to wounded soldiers during World War One, while

651
00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:55,560
Speaker 1: she is on the run from murder charges in Texas.

652
00:36:56,160 --> 00:37:00,520
Speaker 1: She decides inexplicably to go back to Texas because she

653
00:37:00,719 --> 00:37:04,600
Speaker 1: wants to have a criminal trial and declare that this

654
00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:07,440
Speaker 1: was self defense and she wants to come back, and

655
00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:09,480
Speaker 1: she says, bring it on, I want to have a

656
00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:12,239
Speaker 1: self defense case. Let's do it. That seems like an

657
00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:14,960
Speaker 1: awful idea. Why not stay in Germany? I mean, I

658
00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:17,960
Speaker 1: don't know, Well, maybe staying in Germany during World War

659
00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:19,080
Speaker 1: One is not a great idea.

660
00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:23,280
Speaker 2: That may be part of it, you know, getting to motive,

661
00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:28,440
Speaker 2: Heta loses so much by killing Otto, so from a

662
00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:33,960
Speaker 2: planned homicide standpoint, there has to be some other mitigating

663
00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:37,560
Speaker 2: factor for Heada to go. I need to take him out.

664
00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:41,640
Speaker 2: So absent any knowledge of any of that type of

665
00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:46,040
Speaker 2: mitigating factor, you know, this is where Okay was this

666
00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:50,480
Speaker 2: a self defense issue. I could see that from Heada's standpoint,

667
00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:54,960
Speaker 2: if Auto ended up becoming physically aggressive and or pulls

668
00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:58,920
Speaker 2: the gun out during this argument, that would make sense.

669
00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:04,360
Speaker 2: So it negates Head's reliance upon Auto's finances, you know,

670
00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:07,560
Speaker 2: because she loses that when he's dead. Her coming all

671
00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:10,719
Speaker 2: the way back, I mean, she's I couldn't imagine extradition

672
00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:14,399
Speaker 2: out of Germany from World War One. I don't think

673
00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:17,959
Speaker 2: that's happening. She's untouchable over there, so she was free

674
00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:21,880
Speaker 2: and clear. So for her to come back and in

675
00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:26,560
Speaker 2: essence roll the dice at trial, you know, that tends

676
00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:29,719
Speaker 2: to suggest to me that there's a level of truthfulness

677
00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:31,840
Speaker 2: to what Heada is saying happened.

678
00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:35,600
Speaker 1: Well, let's see what happens. She is rearrested. She is

679
00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:38,480
Speaker 1: unwavering in her claim that she acted in self defense

680
00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:41,799
Speaker 1: to protect her and Emmy, because Emmy was there too.

681
00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:46,200
Speaker 1: He was angry, he was aggressive, he was mad because

682
00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:49,440
Speaker 1: had has said don't kiss me for whatever reason. And

683
00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:53,160
Speaker 1: she is on the stand. Another reason she probably shouldn't

684
00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:56,440
Speaker 1: have done this. She is on the stand, which I

685
00:38:56,520 --> 00:38:58,880
Speaker 1: normally would not think is a good idea. But the

686
00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:00,960
Speaker 1: DA says to head, exactly what I had mentioned to

687
00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:04,640
Speaker 1: you before. Did you shoot him on the floor after

688
00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:07,840
Speaker 1: he was dead? I guess, indicating we're you know, this

689
00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:11,040
Speaker 1: was passion and you were mad and you were aggressive,

690
00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:14,719
Speaker 1: not him, you were aggressive. She says, I don't know.

691
00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:19,080
Speaker 1: I only know I shot him as he raised the pistol.

692
00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:22,840
Speaker 1: I thought he would get me, and I shot him again.

693
00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:25,560
Speaker 1: And then she says this, Paul, then I raised the

694
00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:28,920
Speaker 1: pistol to my head and pulled the trigger. And the

695
00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:32,040
Speaker 1: DA says how many times? And she says, I don't know.

696
00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:35,400
Speaker 1: Obviously it didn't work. I guess she unloaded all the bullets.

697
00:39:35,560 --> 00:39:38,200
Speaker 1: But he says then later on, well, it sounds like

698
00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:41,400
Speaker 1: you had better aim at mister Kayler than you did

699
00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:44,360
Speaker 1: it yourself, to which I guess she couldn't say anything. So,

700
00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:47,840
Speaker 1: if we believe Heda, she kills auto and then she

701
00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:49,560
Speaker 1: attempts to take her own life twice.

702
00:39:50,680 --> 00:39:53,040
Speaker 2: That's what the gun as well as with this incisive

703
00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:56,200
Speaker 2: injury to her wrist from the knife. Right yep, So

704
00:39:56,440 --> 00:40:00,160
Speaker 2: again there's a forensic opponent to this. She's I had

705
00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:03,560
Speaker 2: a thirty two revolver that she's putting to her head

706
00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:08,080
Speaker 2: and pulling the trigger. She says twice. Right. Depending on

707
00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:10,040
Speaker 2: the making model a gun. This is where you know,

708
00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:14,480
Speaker 2: getting a good firearms expert, sometimes you can see evidence

709
00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:19,080
Speaker 2: that there the cartridge, the round that is underneath the

710
00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:22,440
Speaker 2: hammer at the time she pulls the trigger, or the

711
00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:25,000
Speaker 2: way it rotates. When you pull the trigger on a revolver,

712
00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:29,080
Speaker 2: it rotates the live round, and then you'll see the

713
00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:33,719
Speaker 2: hammer drop and you potentially could have some evidence to show, yes,

714
00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:37,320
Speaker 2: you know that round, you know there was an attempt

715
00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:40,960
Speaker 2: to fire that round based on maybe a very subtle

716
00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:46,400
Speaker 2: firing pin impression or some other aspect. But this goes

717
00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:50,440
Speaker 2: to when that gun is initially collected, it needs to

718
00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:54,279
Speaker 2: be thoroughly documented as to you have a cylinder, and

719
00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:57,080
Speaker 2: depending on the make and model, let's say six or

720
00:40:57,200 --> 00:41:01,239
Speaker 2: six rounds in this cylinder, you have six light do

721
00:41:01,239 --> 00:41:04,680
Speaker 2: you have let's say in this her scenario, there's three

722
00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:08,640
Speaker 2: shots to auto. Are there three expended rounds out of

723
00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:11,799
Speaker 2: our thirty two? And then where are the other three

724
00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:15,600
Speaker 2: rounds located at? Is there evidence that they potentially did

725
00:41:15,800 --> 00:41:19,480
Speaker 2: have hammer strikes or firing pin strikes on them? You know?

726
00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:22,719
Speaker 2: And that's all just part of what we do routinely

727
00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:25,239
Speaker 2: in this day and age at a crime scene, or

728
00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:28,359
Speaker 2: if I've got the weapon back in the lab, I'm

729
00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:31,560
Speaker 2: documenting all of that and unloading the weapon, and then

730
00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:34,439
Speaker 2: that goes to a firearms examiner who then is able

731
00:41:34,560 --> 00:41:38,560
Speaker 2: to start to ascertain, you know, what exactly are the

732
00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:43,400
Speaker 2: dynamics that the physical evidence can answer under the scenario

733
00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:47,560
Speaker 2: of Heda not remembering how many shots she fired or

734
00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:50,640
Speaker 2: whether or not she remembered firing into him after he's

735
00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:56,160
Speaker 2: laying down, that's not an unusual occurrence in this type

736
00:41:56,160 --> 00:41:59,840
Speaker 2: of scenario. If this was truly a traumatic event for Heda,

737
00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:04,520
Speaker 2: she's doing this in self defense. Human memory is goofy.

738
00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:06,920
Speaker 2: We see this all the time with auser and ball shootings.

739
00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:09,640
Speaker 2: When you talk to the shooting officer when they're interviewed,

740
00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:12,320
Speaker 2: they don't know the number of rounds they shot. Sometimes

741
00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:15,000
Speaker 2: they put themselves in a different position out at the

742
00:42:15,080 --> 00:42:18,000
Speaker 2: crime scene than what the body cam or other video

743
00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:21,400
Speaker 2: footage shows. And this is just the normal aspect of

744
00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:28,480
Speaker 2: how human memory captures things during this traumatic and very

745
00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:31,400
Speaker 2: dynamic and very quick scenario.

746
00:42:31,960 --> 00:42:35,680
Speaker 1: Well, you know, let's talk about nineteen fourteen. I've done

747
00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:41,120
Speaker 1: stories in nineteen eighteen about a serial poisoner who no

748
00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:45,560
Speaker 1: one believed would have actually murdered people, just they could

749
00:42:45,640 --> 00:42:48,680
Speaker 1: not believe it. And I think that the DA is

750
00:42:48,760 --> 00:42:51,960
Speaker 1: in for an uphill battle here because the testimony that

751
00:42:52,040 --> 00:42:54,919
Speaker 1: she gives on the stand is compelling. The Sociated Press

752
00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:59,440
Speaker 1: says that courtroom spectators openly wept during this testimony, So

753
00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:01,400
Speaker 1: she sounds like she did a great job on the stand.

754
00:43:01,680 --> 00:43:04,440
Speaker 1: There was a recess and she walked back to the

755
00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:08,760
Speaker 1: stand and continue testifying. There's reportedly an outburst of clapping

756
00:43:09,440 --> 00:43:12,040
Speaker 1: from the men and women packed into the courtroom. The

757
00:43:12,280 --> 00:43:15,400
Speaker 1: testimony that she gave seems so compelling. It seemed like

758
00:43:15,640 --> 00:43:19,120
Speaker 1: she really framed Auto as this monster, and she was

759
00:43:19,239 --> 00:43:22,480
Speaker 1: defending herself. And it sounds like, Paul, everything you're saying

760
00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:25,680
Speaker 1: kind of lines up with why would she kill him?

761
00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:28,160
Speaker 1: You know, this doesn't make any sense unless it was

762
00:43:28,280 --> 00:43:29,000
Speaker 1: self defense.

763
00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:32,839
Speaker 2: Sure, you know, but as I mentioned, these are other

764
00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:36,960
Speaker 2: mitigating factors that existed or you haven't told me yet.

765
00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:39,160
Speaker 2: And then what has Emmy said.

766
00:43:39,640 --> 00:43:42,799
Speaker 1: Emmy backs up everything everything that hit us says, Emmy

767
00:43:42,880 --> 00:43:46,120
Speaker 1: says happened. So this is a case where you know,

768
00:43:46,239 --> 00:43:47,879
Speaker 1: you have these two women who are saying the same

769
00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:51,799
Speaker 1: thing that Auto was the aggressive one, and that they

770
00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:54,480
Speaker 1: were both scared and she saved both of their lives.

771
00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:55,640
Speaker 1: That is the opinion.

772
00:43:56,120 --> 00:44:00,480
Speaker 2: Did Auto have a life insurance policy in which they

773
00:44:00,520 --> 00:44:05,400
Speaker 2: were beneficiaries of Not that I know, Okay, I'm just

774
00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:09,120
Speaker 2: trying to look for some motive if they planned this, well,

775
00:44:09,360 --> 00:44:09,640
Speaker 2: let me.

776
00:44:09,880 --> 00:44:11,719
Speaker 1: Tell you what ends up happening. And maybe this gives

777
00:44:11,719 --> 00:44:16,160
Speaker 1: you any insight here. So I think everybody who's listening

778
00:44:16,239 --> 00:44:19,200
Speaker 1: knows where this is probably going to go. The court

779
00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:23,000
Speaker 1: in January of nineteen eighteen found that Hetta had acted

780
00:44:23,120 --> 00:44:27,280
Speaker 1: in self defense. She has declared not guilty. She turns

781
00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:31,240
Speaker 1: around and decides that she's going to sue his family

782
00:44:31,360 --> 00:44:36,440
Speaker 1: for twenty thousand dollars because he promised her twenty thousand dollars,

783
00:44:36,480 --> 00:44:38,200
Speaker 1: which by the way, is six hundred and thirty thousand

784
00:44:38,239 --> 00:44:40,239
Speaker 1: dollars today. I don't know if she received it. I

785
00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:43,160
Speaker 1: doubt it. I don't know if that was a true

786
00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:46,200
Speaker 1: claim or not. But she definitely had money on the mind.

787
00:44:46,480 --> 00:44:49,680
Speaker 1: And she ends up marrying one of the jurors. What

788
00:44:49,760 --> 00:44:51,200
Speaker 1: do you think about? I know those are two things

789
00:44:51,200 --> 00:44:53,359
Speaker 1: I smacked you in the face with the sorry.

790
00:44:53,960 --> 00:44:58,120
Speaker 2: I'm not overly concerned about her turning around and doing

791
00:44:58,480 --> 00:45:01,960
Speaker 2: the civil suit. She was fortunate and that you know,

792
00:45:02,080 --> 00:45:06,240
Speaker 2: they acquitted her of the murder charges. If she's truly innocent,

793
00:45:06,400 --> 00:45:09,920
Speaker 2: she's been run through the ringer and is now going, hey,

794
00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:13,719
Speaker 2: you guys traumatize me. You cost me my reputation, my

795
00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:17,360
Speaker 2: financial earnings, whatever it is, you know, And that doesn't

796
00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:19,880
Speaker 2: speak one way or another in my mind in terms

797
00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:25,800
Speaker 2: of Heada's you know, if there's anything suspicious now marrying

798
00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:28,719
Speaker 2: the juror, you know, of course, it comes down to

799
00:45:29,480 --> 00:45:34,120
Speaker 2: when did they first interact? Were they doing google eyes

800
00:45:34,200 --> 00:45:36,480
Speaker 2: at each other during trial? You know, is there any

801
00:45:36,520 --> 00:45:41,160
Speaker 2: observations that maybe there had been some relationship established, because obviously,

802
00:45:41,719 --> 00:45:45,840
Speaker 2: you know, that's where that juror should be dismissed and

803
00:45:46,280 --> 00:45:49,520
Speaker 2: shouldn't be weighing in on guilt when it comes to Heada.

804
00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:53,040
Speaker 2: You know, so you know, what is the story behind that.

805
00:45:53,640 --> 00:45:56,160
Speaker 1: I don't know. I wish I did. I know they

806
00:45:56,280 --> 00:45:59,719
Speaker 1: moved back into her bungalow that auto had deeded to

807
00:45:59,840 --> 00:46:02,520
Speaker 1: the to both women, and I guess probably she paid

808
00:46:02,640 --> 00:46:05,720
Speaker 1: emmy off, you know, and so now she owns his house.

809
00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:06,399
Speaker 2: Mm hmm.

810
00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:10,400
Speaker 1: I still think this sounded like self defense. But you

811
00:46:10,600 --> 00:46:13,000
Speaker 1: never know, You've got three people, one of them's dead

812
00:46:13,040 --> 00:46:15,640
Speaker 1: and the other two have a very high interest in

813
00:46:15,760 --> 00:46:16,640
Speaker 1: protecting each other.

814
00:46:17,080 --> 00:46:20,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, and that's I think the hardest thing

815
00:46:20,440 --> 00:46:23,759
Speaker 2: to be able to tease out in this case is

816
00:46:24,520 --> 00:46:28,920
Speaker 2: you do have Emmy and Heada who they're obviously got

817
00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:32,960
Speaker 2: some sort of close relationship. Yeah, they're sharing the same man.

818
00:46:33,080 --> 00:46:36,440
Speaker 2: They're getting the same financial resources from this guy. I

819
00:46:37,239 --> 00:46:39,560
Speaker 2: kind of go back to, you know, what I said

820
00:46:39,640 --> 00:46:43,880
Speaker 2: before is that you know, here we have relationships and

821
00:46:44,040 --> 00:46:49,400
Speaker 2: human nature occurring. Then we have a crime and we

822
00:46:49,520 --> 00:46:53,200
Speaker 2: have a homicide. And even though you indicated that this

823
00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:57,320
Speaker 2: isn't a forensics case, the reality is because of the

824
00:46:57,360 --> 00:47:03,200
Speaker 2: circumstances and the potential legiance between the only two witnesses

825
00:47:03,320 --> 00:47:07,439
Speaker 2: to this crime, one who's the defendant, this is where

826
00:47:07,960 --> 00:47:12,080
Speaker 2: you know, physical evidence needs to at least be assessed

827
00:47:12,719 --> 00:47:17,480
Speaker 2: and to determine is somebody lying. But right now I

828
00:47:17,560 --> 00:47:21,640
Speaker 2: think I'm with you. I think Heda was likely truthful.

829
00:47:21,840 --> 00:47:24,880
Speaker 2: This was self defense, and the most notable thing about

830
00:47:25,080 --> 00:47:28,319
Speaker 2: that is the fact that she came all the way

831
00:47:28,400 --> 00:47:32,160
Speaker 2: back from Germany to stand trial. They clear her name

832
00:47:32,239 --> 00:47:35,160
Speaker 2: in essence, and that's where I go Okay, she didn't

833
00:47:35,239 --> 00:47:35,759
Speaker 2: have to do that.

834
00:47:36,200 --> 00:47:38,200
Speaker 1: No, well, let me tell you the ending of the story.

835
00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:41,479
Speaker 1: I actually don't know what happens to and to Emmy.

836
00:47:41,560 --> 00:47:44,360
Speaker 1: I'm assuming they go on hopefully and have nice lives.

837
00:47:45,080 --> 00:47:50,279
Speaker 1: Emma Kaylor, the widow, recovers from this awful accident with

838
00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:52,080
Speaker 1: the help of I guess there nurses. I don't know.

839
00:47:52,760 --> 00:47:57,440
Speaker 1: She becomes a very sort of strong, ambitious woman. She's

840
00:47:57,480 --> 00:47:59,360
Speaker 1: healthy enough to take over the brewery and keep it

841
00:47:59,400 --> 00:48:02,200
Speaker 1: afloat prohibition and the Great Depression, which I will tell

842
00:48:02,239 --> 00:48:06,279
Speaker 1: you was no easy feat. I'm sure. She puts a

843
00:48:06,320 --> 00:48:08,560
Speaker 1: lot of her own money into the brewery and it

844
00:48:08,680 --> 00:48:13,520
Speaker 1: becomes very, very successful. Eventually she sells to Paps and

845
00:48:14,040 --> 00:48:18,719
Speaker 1: around two thousand the company the Pearl Brewery is shut down.

846
00:48:19,719 --> 00:48:22,840
Speaker 1: But not long after the developer buys the property like

847
00:48:22,880 --> 00:48:25,160
Speaker 1: I told you before, and transforms it into this wonderful

848
00:48:25,200 --> 00:48:27,440
Speaker 1: development that you have to see. I think in San

849
00:48:27,440 --> 00:48:31,359
Speaker 1: Antonio known as the Pearl, and there is a well,

850
00:48:31,400 --> 00:48:34,080
Speaker 1: I think you're gonna like this. There is a world

851
00:48:34,160 --> 00:48:38,200
Speaker 1: class hotel called the Hotel Emma, which opened in twenty fifteen.

852
00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:40,880
Speaker 1: Oh wow, okay, and it has many of the original

853
00:48:40,960 --> 00:48:43,920
Speaker 1: brewery features you know that make it feel very authentic.

854
00:48:44,160 --> 00:48:46,719
Speaker 1: So new listen, you gotta let me get through this.

855
00:48:46,840 --> 00:48:50,439
Speaker 1: You'll appreciate this. You can if you go there, get

856
00:48:50,440 --> 00:48:55,120
Speaker 1: a cocktail that honors all three Emmas in one glass. Okay,

857
00:48:55,640 --> 00:48:59,160
Speaker 1: grapefruit juice, which is Texas fruit, is the base. Then

858
00:48:59,440 --> 00:49:02,959
Speaker 1: Emma number one, the wife who owned the brewery, gets

859
00:49:03,000 --> 00:49:07,160
Speaker 1: represented with a pearl beer with rose syrup. Emmy, the

860
00:49:07,239 --> 00:49:11,920
Speaker 1: first nurse is represented by sherry and Heta. The third

861
00:49:12,400 --> 00:49:17,200
Speaker 1: is gin and the saying this is funny. The saying

862
00:49:17,360 --> 00:49:20,080
Speaker 1: goes that one is great, but three will kill you.

863
00:49:20,760 --> 00:49:24,120
Speaker 2: Yeah. I was going to say that's that's a hangover

864
00:49:24,239 --> 00:49:25,480
Speaker 2: and waiting right there.

865
00:49:27,040 --> 00:49:29,120
Speaker 1: I usually don't laugh at the end of murder stories.

866
00:49:29,280 --> 00:49:33,239
Speaker 1: But I don't know. We don't know what happened in

867
00:49:33,360 --> 00:49:35,720
Speaker 1: that house. We don't know what happened with those women.

868
00:49:36,280 --> 00:49:39,120
Speaker 1: I agree with you. I feel like the feeling is

869
00:49:39,280 --> 00:49:41,800
Speaker 1: if you're going off instinct, the feeling was self defense.

870
00:49:42,400 --> 00:49:44,759
Speaker 1: I don't know what was going through Otto's mind. I

871
00:49:44,960 --> 00:49:47,440
Speaker 1: know that he thought money could control two women, and

872
00:49:47,520 --> 00:49:50,600
Speaker 1: it did for quite a while. I think probably the

873
00:49:50,719 --> 00:49:53,959
Speaker 1: right outcome happened, and I'm glad that the pearl turned

874
00:49:53,960 --> 00:49:56,040
Speaker 1: out to be as wonderful as it was, and I'm

875
00:49:56,040 --> 00:49:59,400
Speaker 1: certainly glad that Emma, one of the victims in this circumstance,

876
00:49:59,520 --> 00:50:03,080
Speaker 1: ended up covering and became just an awesome businesswoman.

877
00:50:03,440 --> 00:50:05,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I think I'm convinced. I'm going to

878
00:50:05,640 --> 00:50:08,319
Speaker 2: go check out this Pearl area in San Antonio one

879
00:50:08,360 --> 00:50:11,080
Speaker 2: of these times. When I'm out there, maybe I'll visit

880
00:50:11,160 --> 00:50:12,960
Speaker 2: you in Austin and we can take a little road

881
00:50:13,040 --> 00:50:14,640
Speaker 2: trip down to San anton.

882
00:50:14,600 --> 00:50:16,800
Speaker 1: Along with a designated driver. If we're going to have

883
00:50:17,560 --> 00:50:21,239
Speaker 1: the three Emas, all right, folks, you heard that all

884
00:50:21,320 --> 00:50:25,520
Speaker 1: at once. One is great, but three will kill you. Okay, Well,

885
00:50:25,760 --> 00:50:27,799
Speaker 1: next week we will not have three m's. We could

886
00:50:27,840 --> 00:50:31,080
Speaker 1: have one. I don't know. Sometimes we probably every ninth episode.

887
00:50:31,080 --> 00:50:33,680
Speaker 1: I think there's an Emma throne in there. But we

888
00:50:33,800 --> 00:50:36,800
Speaker 1: will definitely have another compelling story. Maybe in Texas we

889
00:50:36,880 --> 00:50:39,480
Speaker 1: have so many of those, Maybe in Colorado, but we

890
00:50:39,600 --> 00:50:40,000
Speaker 1: will see.

891
00:50:40,320 --> 00:50:42,480
Speaker 2: All right, well again, looking forward to it.

892
00:50:42,960 --> 00:50:43,240
Speaker 3: Thanks.

893
00:50:47,520 --> 00:50:50,760
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production for our sources

894
00:50:50,840 --> 00:50:53,960
Speaker 1: and show notes go to exactly rightmedia dot com slash

895
00:50:54,040 --> 00:50:57,960
Speaker 1: Buried Bones sources. Our senior producer is Alexis Emiosi.

896
00:50:58,280 --> 00:51:02,520
Speaker 2: Research by Maren mcclashan, Ali Elkin, and Kate Winkler Dawson.

897
00:51:02,800 --> 00:51:05,040
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

898
00:51:05,360 --> 00:51:07,640
Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

899
00:51:07,880 --> 00:51:09,880
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

900
00:51:10,160 --> 00:51:14,320
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark and Danielle Kramer.

901
00:51:14,600 --> 00:51:17,920
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

902
00:51:18,080 --> 00:51:19,200
Speaker 1: Bary Bones pod.

903
00:51:19,680 --> 00:51:22,200
Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

904
00:51:22,239 --> 00:51:24,239
Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race to decote the

905
00:51:24,280 --> 00:51:26,440
Speaker 2: criminal mind, is available now, and

906
00:51:26,600 --> 00:51:30,879
Speaker 1: Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life solving America's Cold

907
00:51:30,960 --> 00:51:32,680
Speaker 1: Cases is also available now