1 00:00:00,920 --> 00:00:05,200 Speaker 1: It's December twenty third. Last night, you decorated a Christmas 2 00:00:05,280 --> 00:00:08,319 Speaker 1: tree with your family. You put your two year old 3 00:00:08,320 --> 00:00:10,800 Speaker 1: on your shoulder so she could hang her favorite ornament 4 00:00:11,240 --> 00:00:14,400 Speaker 1: way up high on the tree. Your twin babies gazed 5 00:00:14,480 --> 00:00:16,639 Speaker 1: up at you from the living room floor, taking the 6 00:00:16,680 --> 00:00:20,000 Speaker 1: scene in with giggles and excited kicks of their little legs. 7 00:00:21,160 --> 00:00:24,439 Speaker 1: Later on, your wife put the kids to bed, and 8 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:26,920 Speaker 1: then you both stayed up late, finishing the tree and 9 00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:30,560 Speaker 1: cleaning up. In the morning, your wife leaves the house 10 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:33,800 Speaker 1: early for some last minute chopping for the girls. The 11 00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:36,440 Speaker 1: babies hear the door slam and start to cry, as 12 00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:39,880 Speaker 1: they typically do. You take them out of their cribs, 13 00:00:40,120 --> 00:00:41,720 Speaker 1: give them eat a bottle, and put them on the 14 00:00:41,760 --> 00:00:43,800 Speaker 1: soft play mat on the floor so they can keep 15 00:00:43,800 --> 00:00:47,120 Speaker 1: each other company. You head back to your room and 16 00:00:47,159 --> 00:00:49,640 Speaker 1: as you lay down, you hear them cooing from across 17 00:00:49,680 --> 00:00:53,800 Speaker 1: the hall. You drift off to sleep. You are to 18 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:56,959 Speaker 1: sleep long. You wake up to your two year old 19 00:00:57,040 --> 00:01:05,119 Speaker 1: daughter screaming, Daddy, Daddy. You're groggy, startled, but the terror 20 00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:08,520 Speaker 1: in her voice snaps you awake like a blaring alarm, 21 00:01:09,080 --> 00:01:13,640 Speaker 1: and then it hits you. The room is a dense 22 00:01:13,720 --> 00:01:17,560 Speaker 1: cloud of gray and black. You can barely see. You 23 00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:23,319 Speaker 1: smell charcoal, ash, smoke. Oh no, your girls. Get the 24 00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:29,480 Speaker 1: girls out of the house. It's loud. It sounds like 25 00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:35,600 Speaker 1: an angry windstorm. The entire house is crackling, popping. You 26 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:38,360 Speaker 1: make your way to the baby's room and feel around 27 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:42,480 Speaker 1: on the floor, groping in the darkness. You think you 28 00:01:42,560 --> 00:01:45,120 Speaker 1: grab one of the twins, but it's just a baby doll. 29 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:49,080 Speaker 1: Your hair is on fire. You stand up and pat 30 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:53,680 Speaker 1: it out and frantically get on the ground again. Then 31 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:56,880 Speaker 1: there's a loud crash. Something is falling from somewhere in 32 00:01:56,920 --> 00:01:59,600 Speaker 1: the house. It must be the caving in a part 33 00:01:59,600 --> 00:02:02,000 Speaker 1: of the room for a wall, but you can't see anything. 34 00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:06,880 Speaker 1: It's so hot you can't breathe. You need to catch 35 00:02:06,920 --> 00:02:10,760 Speaker 1: your breath before you pass out. You finally make your 36 00:02:10,760 --> 00:02:14,520 Speaker 1: way outside to get help. You'll come back for them. 37 00:02:14,960 --> 00:02:17,359 Speaker 1: You see your neighbor on her front lawn and scream 38 00:02:17,440 --> 00:02:20,280 Speaker 1: for her to call the fire department. She sees a 39 00:02:20,400 --> 00:02:23,840 Speaker 1: hysterical man covered in soot, and she yells back, they're 40 00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:28,040 Speaker 1: on the way. You try to get back inside, breaking 41 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:30,160 Speaker 1: the window of the baby's room with the stick you 42 00:02:30,200 --> 00:02:35,200 Speaker 1: find in the yard, flames explode from the opening. Oh God, 43 00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:40,720 Speaker 1: you can't get in. You're crying out for your children. Someone, anyone, 44 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:47,040 Speaker 1: please help. The fire department finally arrives and they have 45 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:50,359 Speaker 1: to hold you back. They find your two year old 46 00:02:50,440 --> 00:02:53,400 Speaker 1: in the bedroom on the floor. You didn't realize she 47 00:02:53,440 --> 00:02:57,200 Speaker 1: had been right there, right there. Your babies are on 48 00:02:57,240 --> 00:02:59,359 Speaker 1: the floor of their room where you had left them 49 00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:03,080 Speaker 1: with their bottle. You had been so close to finding them. 50 00:03:04,240 --> 00:03:10,919 Speaker 1: They try to do CPR, but it's too late. You're 51 00:03:11,040 --> 00:03:13,519 Speaker 1: escorted away from the house, and once the fires a 52 00:03:13,560 --> 00:03:18,840 Speaker 1: under control, investigators in protective gear head inside. There's no 53 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:23,200 Speaker 1: sense of urgency anymore. They walk through the remains and 54 00:03:23,720 --> 00:03:27,079 Speaker 1: disappear into the black and living room where you had 55 00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:32,440 Speaker 1: spent your last night together as a family. You are 56 00:03:32,600 --> 00:03:38,120 Speaker 1: dumbfounded when they arrest you for arson murder. This was 57 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:43,520 Speaker 1: your family. You would never lay a finger on your children. 58 00:03:45,280 --> 00:03:49,320 Speaker 1: At your trial, the prosecutors call expert witnesses who tell 59 00:03:49,360 --> 00:03:52,840 Speaker 1: the jury that the proven science of fire tells the 60 00:03:52,880 --> 00:03:57,040 Speaker 1: story of how you committed this crime. You pour lighter fluid, 61 00:03:57,280 --> 00:04:00,280 Speaker 1: which they referred to as an accelerant, under your baby's 62 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:04,520 Speaker 1: beds in the hallway by the front door. The burn 63 00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:07,320 Speaker 1: marks seared into the floor indicate where that light or 64 00:04:07,360 --> 00:04:11,440 Speaker 1: fluid was puddled on the carpet. They say, there's no 65 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:14,480 Speaker 1: way you tried to save your girls. If you had, 66 00:04:14,600 --> 00:04:18,360 Speaker 1: your feet would have been burned. Dripstains proved that you 67 00:04:18,440 --> 00:04:22,479 Speaker 1: poured accelerant up and down the hallway. The melted metal 68 00:04:22,520 --> 00:04:26,159 Speaker 1: door frame, the shattered glass, It all proves the fire 69 00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:30,080 Speaker 1: was so unnaturally hot that it produced temperatures that could 70 00:04:30,080 --> 00:04:34,400 Speaker 1: only have been created by chemicals that you intentionally poured 71 00:04:34,440 --> 00:04:39,800 Speaker 1: all over your home and your motive. Prosecutors argued this, 72 00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:44,160 Speaker 1: you love heavy metal music, and that indicates that you 73 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:47,599 Speaker 1: have a dark side. You have posters on the walls 74 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:50,599 Speaker 1: of your home, one of which depicts a grim reaper 75 00:04:51,160 --> 00:04:55,520 Speaker 1: that proves you're obsessed with death. You have a tattoo 76 00:04:55,680 --> 00:04:59,680 Speaker 1: of a skull and snake on your arm that indicates 77 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:04,160 Speaker 1: that you're a violent person. You have psychiatric problems, perhaps 78 00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:08,440 Speaker 1: a demonic disposition. You couldn't afford to hire a lawyer, 79 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:12,560 Speaker 1: so the court appointed you an attorney. He too, suspects 80 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:16,200 Speaker 1: that you killed your children. He tells you to plead guilty. 81 00:05:16,279 --> 00:05:19,839 Speaker 1: If you do, they'll give you life in prison instead 82 00:05:19,839 --> 00:05:24,440 Speaker 1: of the death sentence. You can't do this. This was 83 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:27,640 Speaker 1: an accident. There was no crime here. You're not going 84 00:05:27,720 --> 00:05:31,359 Speaker 1: to confess to killing your three beautiful children. You didn't 85 00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:37,159 Speaker 1: do anything wrong here. You were convicted and sentenced to 86 00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:43,080 Speaker 1: death on death row. The events of that day haunt you. 87 00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:46,560 Speaker 1: You look at the photos of your children, your wife 88 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:50,840 Speaker 1: to remember the man you were, the life you once had. 89 00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:55,520 Speaker 1: Time seems to stand still on death row, and the 90 00:05:55,560 --> 00:06:00,320 Speaker 1: whole experience is nothing short of paralyzing. The date of 91 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:04,919 Speaker 1: your execution eventually closes in. You write a letter to 92 00:06:04,960 --> 00:06:08,160 Speaker 1: your parents, telling them to never stop fighting to clear 93 00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:11,440 Speaker 1: your name, even if it's after they put you to death. 94 00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:16,200 Speaker 1: The last wars of your fellow inmates, the ones who 95 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:20,560 Speaker 1: were executed before you, one by one, were often apologies. 96 00:06:21,480 --> 00:06:25,560 Speaker 1: Sometimes they were confessions. But before you're strapped into the 97 00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:30,600 Speaker 1: gurney and given a lethal injection, you say, I am 98 00:06:30,640 --> 00:06:34,600 Speaker 1: an innocent person convicted of a crime I did not commit. 99 00:06:36,080 --> 00:06:40,320 Speaker 1: I have been persecuted for twelve years for something I 100 00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:44,400 Speaker 1: did not do. From God's dust I came, and to 101 00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:52,080 Speaker 1: dust I will return, so the earth shall become my throne. 102 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:59,200 Speaker 1: Your parents scatter your ashes over the graves of your children. 103 00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:09,440 Speaker 1: The story you just heard is based on the wrongful 104 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:14,800 Speaker 1: conviction of Cameron Todd Willingham, who was wrongfully convicted and 105 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:21,000 Speaker 1: executed in two thousand and four. I'm Josh Dubin, civil 106 00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:24,440 Speaker 1: rights and criminal defense attorney and Innocent Ambassador to the 107 00:07:24,480 --> 00:07:29,520 Speaker 1: Innocence Project in New York. Today on wrongful conviction junk science, 108 00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:45,160 Speaker 1: we examine arson evidence. In nineteen seventy three, the Nixon 109 00:07:45,200 --> 00:07:49,560 Speaker 1: administration published a report entitled America Burning. It was all 110 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:53,000 Speaker 1: about damage the fires caused in America, both in terms 111 00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:56,280 Speaker 1: of physical destruction and the billions of dollars spent to 112 00:07:56,320 --> 00:08:01,640 Speaker 1: repair and rebuild. But unfortunately, much of what was considered 113 00:08:01,760 --> 00:08:05,080 Speaker 1: fire signs in America Burning was merely a set of 114 00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:08,160 Speaker 1: core assumptions that were never subjected to the rigors of 115 00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:13,280 Speaker 1: the scientific method, that is, develop a hypothesis, test it, 116 00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:17,800 Speaker 1: confirm it, reconfirm it, and repeat until you know you 117 00:08:17,920 --> 00:08:22,840 Speaker 1: have something sound and verifiable. As a result of this study, 118 00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:26,960 Speaker 1: fire investigators were given a handbook, a guide to reading 119 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:31,480 Speaker 1: fire damage like a psychic reads tea leaves. An investigator, 120 00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:35,240 Speaker 1: having learned from this handbook, starts his investigation at the 121 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:38,679 Speaker 1: exterior of a burnt down house. He sees a V 122 00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:40,640 Speaker 1: shaped burn on what's left of the walls of the 123 00:08:40,679 --> 00:08:44,120 Speaker 1: living room. He notes this is the room where the 124 00:08:44,160 --> 00:08:48,000 Speaker 1: fire started. He walks through the home, keeping an eye 125 00:08:48,040 --> 00:08:52,800 Speaker 1: out for the telltale signs of arson. First, crazed glass 126 00:08:53,679 --> 00:08:58,040 Speaker 1: windows shattered into irregular pieces with light smoke deposits that 127 00:08:58,160 --> 00:09:01,000 Speaker 1: indicate a rapid buildup of heat that can only be 128 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:07,360 Speaker 1: caused by an accelerant. Second, alligatoring large shiny blisters on 129 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:13,920 Speaker 1: burnt wood. Fast hot fires produced by accelerants create this pattern. Third, 130 00:09:14,559 --> 00:09:18,720 Speaker 1: puddle formations and burns that look like drip trails. These 131 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:21,680 Speaker 1: are caused by the spreading of accelerant like gasoline or 132 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:25,360 Speaker 1: paint thinner throughout a house before it is intentionally set 133 00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:29,640 Speaker 1: on fire. The investigator checks all of these signs off 134 00:09:29,720 --> 00:09:39,760 Speaker 1: the list. He knows this must be arson. It turns 135 00:09:39,760 --> 00:09:42,839 Speaker 1: out the investigator only had a fifty percent chance of 136 00:09:42,920 --> 00:09:47,680 Speaker 1: being right at best, because fire science was built on 137 00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:51,480 Speaker 1: a foundation of conjecture and best guesses that were never 138 00:09:51,559 --> 00:09:56,840 Speaker 1: adequately tested and confirmed according to valid scientific principles. What 139 00:09:57,000 --> 00:10:00,760 Speaker 1: experts and prosecutors had been telling juries for decades about 140 00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:04,040 Speaker 1: how you can definitively determine that a fire was intentionally 141 00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:09,520 Speaker 1: set was completely wrong. In fact, signs that indicated to 142 00:10:09,640 --> 00:10:15,240 Speaker 1: investigators that they were dealing with arson, crazed glass, alligator patterns, 143 00:10:15,679 --> 00:10:20,200 Speaker 1: burn marks indicating drips or puddles of accelerant were actually 144 00:10:20,280 --> 00:10:24,199 Speaker 1: the same things left in the wake of an accidental fire. 145 00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:28,640 Speaker 1: So the evidence that was used to convict Cameron Todd 146 00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:34,200 Speaker 1: Willingham and so many others was deeply, deeply flawed. 147 00:10:37,960 --> 00:10:43,520 Speaker 2: It turns out that there was no evidence whatsoever that 148 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:47,000 Speaker 2: this had been a fire that was set by Todd 149 00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:51,360 Speaker 2: Willingham running up and down his home, you know, just 150 00:10:51,480 --> 00:10:55,920 Speaker 2: before Christmas, spreading accelerant in all the different rooms and 151 00:10:55,960 --> 00:10:59,840 Speaker 2: down the hallway and killing his three children. It was 152 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:03,440 Speaker 2: clear that this was junk science. And unfortunately, by this 153 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:07,200 Speaker 2: point in my career I was familiar enough with the 154 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:09,800 Speaker 2: phenomenon of junk science not to be surprised. 155 00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:15,000 Speaker 1: Joining us today to tell us about arson evidence and 156 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:18,240 Speaker 1: how it relates to cases like Cameron Todd Willingham's is 157 00:11:18,320 --> 00:11:21,959 Speaker 1: Barry Sheck, co founder of the Innocence Project and famed 158 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:26,480 Speaker 1: civil rights and criminal defense attorney. So Barry, first, thanks 159 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:29,679 Speaker 1: for being here and for our listeners. Barry is one 160 00:11:29,679 --> 00:11:33,319 Speaker 1: of my personal heroes, and I'm just ecstatic that we're 161 00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:37,959 Speaker 1: able to get you to enlighten us about arson evidence. Now, 162 00:11:38,360 --> 00:11:42,120 Speaker 1: you worked to get Cameron Todd Willingham's case overturned after 163 00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:47,080 Speaker 1: he was executed, And this might seem like somewhat of 164 00:11:47,120 --> 00:11:51,679 Speaker 1: a pointless fight to some people, since mister Willingham was 165 00:11:51,720 --> 00:11:54,920 Speaker 1: already put to death in two thousand and four. But 166 00:11:55,120 --> 00:11:59,360 Speaker 1: you are fighting for mister Willingham's final wish for his 167 00:11:59,559 --> 00:12:02,680 Speaker 1: name to be cleared and him to be declared an 168 00:12:02,679 --> 00:12:07,040 Speaker 1: innocent man by a court. I think that it's well 169 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:10,120 Speaker 1: accepted that he's an innocent man at this point. But 170 00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:13,160 Speaker 1: you're also fighting so that the kind of evidence that 171 00:12:13,280 --> 00:12:16,800 Speaker 1: was used against mister Willingham doesn't get used to convict 172 00:12:16,800 --> 00:12:22,160 Speaker 1: another innocent person. And so, to start off, Barry, if 173 00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:25,760 Speaker 1: some of the clues used an arson investigation or indeed 174 00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:29,760 Speaker 1: junk science, how did Cameron Todd Willingham get convicted in 175 00:12:29,800 --> 00:12:30,480 Speaker 1: the first place? 176 00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:35,200 Speaker 2: What the fire scientists, the arson investigators in Willingham, what 177 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:37,880 Speaker 2: they did in that case. They would go to the 178 00:12:37,920 --> 00:12:40,560 Speaker 2: scene of a fire and they would look at all 179 00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:45,760 Speaker 2: these visual cues and if they saw what was called alligatoring, 180 00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:49,600 Speaker 2: which was like the scales of an alligator on wood. 181 00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:53,880 Speaker 2: If they saw what was known as craze glass that's 182 00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:57,600 Speaker 2: like a spider type cracking of the glass. If they 183 00:12:57,679 --> 00:13:01,640 Speaker 2: saw spawling of concrete that's like little chips coming off 184 00:13:01,640 --> 00:13:05,079 Speaker 2: the concrete at the scene of the fire. If they 185 00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:10,360 Speaker 2: saw scouring on the floor, poor patterns, they immediately assumed 186 00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:16,240 Speaker 2: that all of these visual cues meant that somebody had 187 00:13:16,320 --> 00:13:21,400 Speaker 2: spread accelerant around the house and lit it and that 188 00:13:21,720 --> 00:13:24,880 Speaker 2: was the cause of the fire. And they literally said 189 00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:28,040 Speaker 2: to the jury, we look at the fire, the fire 190 00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:31,880 Speaker 2: talks to us. The fire doesn't lie. That's very powerful 191 00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:35,720 Speaker 2: to a jury. So what happened, Josh, is that when 192 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:40,600 Speaker 2: we at the Innocence Project saw what happened in the 193 00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:44,440 Speaker 2: Willingham case, we had just been involved in setting up 194 00:13:44,440 --> 00:13:48,640 Speaker 2: what's known as the Texas Forensic Science Commission. They reviewed 195 00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:52,360 Speaker 2: all the crime scene evidence in the Willingham case and 196 00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:56,360 Speaker 2: they said what was clear, and that is this is 197 00:13:56,440 --> 00:14:01,320 Speaker 2: junk science. This had been discredited by Fire Protection nine 198 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:07,760 Speaker 2: twenty one, ten years ago. The science was completely flawed, unreliable, ridiculous. 199 00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:11,319 Speaker 1: So even after all of that, the state of Texas 200 00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:15,760 Speaker 1: still refused to free Cameron Todd Willingham. And to show 201 00:14:15,880 --> 00:14:18,680 Speaker 1: just how flawed this evidence was, there was a man 202 00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:22,920 Speaker 1: named Ernest Willis who was convicted of a similar crime 203 00:14:23,480 --> 00:14:27,200 Speaker 1: with similar evidence than was used in the Willingham case. 204 00:14:27,840 --> 00:14:31,400 Speaker 1: But while Cameron Todd Willingham was put to death in 205 00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:36,000 Speaker 1: two thousand and four, Willis was declared innocent that very 206 00:14:36,040 --> 00:14:38,760 Speaker 1: same year. So how is that possible, Barry, that one 207 00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:43,080 Speaker 1: man Willingham is executed based on this junk science, while 208 00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:46,840 Speaker 1: another man, Willis, whose case was very similar, gets to 209 00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:47,400 Speaker 1: go free. 210 00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:52,920 Speaker 2: Ernest Willis went to trial, he had a completely incompetent 211 00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:56,920 Speaker 2: lawyer who was disbarred for all kinds of reasons. Willis 212 00:14:57,040 --> 00:15:00,040 Speaker 2: was so upset by the fire that you know he 213 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:05,120 Speaker 2: killed family members, that he was literally on psychotropic medication 214 00:15:06,080 --> 00:15:09,880 Speaker 2: in the witness chair, right. He was lucky because his 215 00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:13,880 Speaker 2: lawyer was so incompetent, and on his death penalty appeal 216 00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:17,040 Speaker 2: he got a patent lawyer from Letha Ben Watkins in 217 00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:21,200 Speaker 2: New York who dove into the case and was able 218 00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:25,720 Speaker 2: to get the federal courts to vacate that conviction. And 219 00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:29,440 Speaker 2: when the conviction was remanded on exactly the same evidence. 220 00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:35,960 Speaker 2: Just like the Willingham case, Willis was not only exonerated. 221 00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:39,480 Speaker 2: There was a prosecutor in Pakos County, Texas took one 222 00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:42,280 Speaker 2: look at this and said, oh my god, this was 223 00:15:42,320 --> 00:15:46,160 Speaker 2: an accidental fire. This was not an arson murderer, and 224 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:50,120 Speaker 2: he not only dismissed the case against Ernest Willis, Ernest 225 00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:54,880 Speaker 2: Willis was compensated as actually innocent by the state of Texas, 226 00:15:55,440 --> 00:16:00,000 Speaker 2: while within the same time period Cameron Todd Willingham was executed. 227 00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:03,240 Speaker 1: It's just really hard to hear this stuff right because 228 00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:07,760 Speaker 1: right away this indicates some sort of double standard, or 229 00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:10,920 Speaker 1: at least some confusion within the justice system about what 230 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:13,880 Speaker 1: arson evidence really means and how much it can be trusted. 231 00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:18,240 Speaker 1: And to be clear, by two thousand and four, there 232 00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:21,280 Speaker 1: shouldn't have been any confusion about this type of evidence, 233 00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:25,360 Speaker 1: because in the early nineties there were two incidents that 234 00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:28,800 Speaker 1: I'm going to ask you about that really proved that 235 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:31,920 Speaker 1: the kind of arson evidence used in the Cameron Todd 236 00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:36,240 Speaker 1: Willingham case was bogus. The first was the Lime Street 237 00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:38,680 Speaker 1: case in nineteen ninety, which was the case of Gerald 238 00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:42,880 Speaker 1: Wayne Lewis. Mister Lewis was accused of killing his pregnant wife, 239 00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:47,440 Speaker 1: his sister, and his sister's four children by arson. Now 240 00:16:47,520 --> 00:16:50,520 Speaker 1: Gerald always maintained his innocence, but it was actually a 241 00:16:50,560 --> 00:16:55,800 Speaker 1: prosecution expert named John Lentini who was the moving force 242 00:16:56,240 --> 00:16:57,800 Speaker 1: improving Gerald's innocence. 243 00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:03,000 Speaker 2: John Lentini was arson investigator, and he went along with 244 00:17:03,040 --> 00:17:08,800 Speaker 2: a colleague of his, John Dehan, to investigate an allegation 245 00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:13,200 Speaker 2: of arson at a home on Lime Street in Jacksonville, Florida. 246 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:17,600 Speaker 2: And they examined the crime scene and they were all ready, 247 00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:21,320 Speaker 2: by their own admission, to make a recommendation that it 248 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:26,080 Speaker 2: was an intentional arson. But they realized that right next 249 00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:29,679 Speaker 2: to the house that burned down was another house that 250 00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:33,240 Speaker 2: was abandoned, but it was the same construction. So they 251 00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:39,399 Speaker 2: rebuilt the house right next door to be identical to 252 00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:43,840 Speaker 2: the Lime Street house that burned down, and then they 253 00:17:44,359 --> 00:17:47,919 Speaker 2: basically put a cigarette on a couch. They began the 254 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:51,600 Speaker 2: fire in a way that would be completely accidental. The 255 00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:55,120 Speaker 2: whole place burned down, and they saw all the clues, 256 00:17:55,320 --> 00:18:00,800 Speaker 2: all the visual clues from the craze glass alligator burning 257 00:18:01,359 --> 00:18:06,200 Speaker 2: under furniture, a completely compartmentalized fire. They saw all these 258 00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:10,760 Speaker 2: cues and they knew that it was an accidental fire, 259 00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:15,400 Speaker 2: not a deliberate one, and so that began to change everything. 260 00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:20,680 Speaker 1: So again, this is very ironic and rare because Lentini's 261 00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:24,359 Speaker 1: a fire investigator that's working for the prosecution and he's 262 00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:27,840 Speaker 1: actually trying to prove that this Lime Street case was 263 00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:31,480 Speaker 1: in fact arson and that Gerald Wayne Lewis had actually 264 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:36,720 Speaker 1: done it. But he realizes that there was some serious 265 00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:42,040 Speaker 1: issues with his assumptions because this accidental fire actually resembled 266 00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:45,879 Speaker 1: an arson, and it resembled it in very critical ways. 267 00:18:46,760 --> 00:18:50,080 Speaker 1: And what was most shocking to me about this was 268 00:18:50,119 --> 00:18:55,240 Speaker 1: that Lentini saw puddlestains and trail marks that looked identical 269 00:18:55,920 --> 00:18:58,600 Speaker 1: to what he had been taught and so many other 270 00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:02,800 Speaker 1: investigators had been taught, or the telltale signs of someone 271 00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:07,560 Speaker 1: dripping gasoline or another accelerant throughout a house. But that 272 00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:10,040 Speaker 1: definitely was not the case here. And they knew that 273 00:19:10,520 --> 00:19:15,240 Speaker 1: because they set the fire themselves with a cigarette exactly, and. 274 00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:17,399 Speaker 2: They'd say, well, that really can't happen unless it's an 275 00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:21,360 Speaker 2: intentionally set fire. But it turns out with this phenomenon 276 00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:25,560 Speaker 2: of flashover, which is you get this hot, combustible object 277 00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:29,880 Speaker 2: in a small space, ordinarily a room, right, and then 278 00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:34,840 Speaker 2: it begins to cause this huge burst of heat and 279 00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:38,960 Speaker 2: fire in that room, and the whole place becomes engulfed. 280 00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:48,199 Speaker 2: So that's what creates the intense heat that arson investigators 281 00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:53,760 Speaker 2: had hypothesized must come from the deliberate use of accelerants. 282 00:19:54,359 --> 00:19:58,480 Speaker 2: It turns out that it could all happen in a 283 00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:02,359 Speaker 2: completely accidental fire. 284 00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:15,960 Speaker 1: So Lintini the investigator realizes that accidental fires can look 285 00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:20,719 Speaker 1: just like arson, and he does something that is actually 286 00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:24,520 Speaker 1: quite remarkable. But it shouldn't be, because whether you're working 287 00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:28,119 Speaker 1: for the prosecution or the defense, when the science tells 288 00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:32,800 Speaker 1: you something, you should not have a bias in its application. Right. 289 00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:35,960 Speaker 1: He doesn't say, Oh, this is just some weird coincidence. 290 00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:39,399 Speaker 1: I'm going to keep working for prosecutors to convict people 291 00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:43,280 Speaker 1: in arson cases based on this evidence that I now 292 00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:48,840 Speaker 1: know is clearly faulty. It's wrong. Instead, he's pretty shocked, 293 00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:52,760 Speaker 1: appalled by what he sees, and he feels like he's 294 00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:56,480 Speaker 1: been misled by this evidence for years. Right, And he 295 00:20:56,520 --> 00:21:00,800 Speaker 1: gets an opportunity to examine a bunch more more accidental 296 00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:03,240 Speaker 1: fires and make sure that his findings in the Lime 297 00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:06,520 Speaker 1: Street case were consistent with other accidental fires. 298 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:10,480 Speaker 2: I don't know if people remember, but these homes on 299 00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:13,720 Speaker 2: the in the hills in Oakland, California, began to burn down, 300 00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:17,880 Speaker 2: you know, in what was plainly a series of accidental fires. 301 00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:21,720 Speaker 2: And after all these homes were burned down, the fire 302 00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:24,800 Speaker 2: scientists went at and examined each and every one of 303 00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:29,160 Speaker 2: them and they realized, once again, here were plainly accidental fires. 304 00:21:29,560 --> 00:21:33,640 Speaker 2: But all these visual cues that arson experts had been 305 00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:37,280 Speaker 2: relying on demonstrated that it was an accident. It was 306 00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:41,520 Speaker 2: not an intentionally set fire. So take just the craze glass. 307 00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:45,200 Speaker 2: That's a simple thing to understand. You know, you look 308 00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:47,760 Speaker 2: at the glass, it's sort of spider glass, and that 309 00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:54,160 Speaker 2: supposedly an indication of suddenly intense heat that comes from 310 00:21:55,320 --> 00:22:00,280 Speaker 2: you know, an accelerant induced fire. In fact, you've had 311 00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:05,600 Speaker 2: craze glass all over in Oakland in the Lime Street fire. 312 00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:10,320 Speaker 2: Because craze glass happens when people come to put out 313 00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:13,640 Speaker 2: the fire and they put cold water on it and 314 00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:17,600 Speaker 2: the glass cracks. That's how you get crazed glass. 315 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:21,960 Speaker 1: So these arson investigators have been testifying for years and 316 00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:26,440 Speaker 1: years that the reason you see crazed glass, and it's 317 00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:28,879 Speaker 1: no pun intend that it's actually a crazy notion that 318 00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:31,280 Speaker 1: they're testifying to one thing and it turns out to 319 00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:35,119 Speaker 1: be the exact opposite. All right, So crazed glass was 320 00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:37,280 Speaker 1: caused by the cooling of the glass when they're putting 321 00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:39,719 Speaker 1: the fire out. What were some other things they were 322 00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:40,560 Speaker 1: wrong about? 323 00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:44,720 Speaker 2: They would say, oh, we're looking at mattress springs in 324 00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:47,520 Speaker 2: a bed or something and they're melted. That can only 325 00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:50,919 Speaker 2: happen if it's an intentionally set fire. But when they 326 00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:53,680 Speaker 2: went to the hills of Oakland and looked at these homes, 327 00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:56,120 Speaker 2: they saw the same thing, and the same thing at 328 00:22:56,119 --> 00:22:57,160 Speaker 2: the Lime Street fire. 329 00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:01,160 Speaker 1: I mean, you would think that would be the end 330 00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:04,800 Speaker 1: of people trying to use this kind of junk science, 331 00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:07,800 Speaker 1: this kind of false evidence, but that isn't the case. 332 00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:12,919 Speaker 2: What is really upsetting is that you see over the 333 00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:18,600 Speaker 2: next few decades, nonetheless, lots of people who were convicted 334 00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:24,240 Speaker 2: because they never did scientific validation in the first place. 335 00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:28,560 Speaker 2: You actually have to conduct experiments, you have to have hypotheses, 336 00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:32,080 Speaker 2: and you have to prove that they're true, instead of 337 00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:36,280 Speaker 2: just having you know, really you know, sort of law 338 00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:40,040 Speaker 2: enforcement people in lab codes, so to speak, or people 339 00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:44,240 Speaker 2: that have expertise by way of quote unquote experience going 340 00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:49,119 Speaker 2: to crime scenes and looking at fire scenes and really 341 00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:52,840 Speaker 2: coming up with their own hypotheses that were never demonstrated 342 00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:55,920 Speaker 2: to be true by science. That's what's so shocking about 343 00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:59,800 Speaker 2: this whole area. In other words, if you believe all 344 00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:06,040 Speaker 2: these different visual cues demonstrate that an accelerant has been used, 345 00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:08,920 Speaker 2: you should do experiments to prove the point. 346 00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:13,280 Speaker 1: Now, Barry, this isn't the case where these investigators were 347 00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:16,080 Speaker 1: out to harm people. This is just how they were trained. 348 00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:21,359 Speaker 2: I have some sympathy for a whole group of people 349 00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:25,560 Speaker 2: who had, many of them just high school graduates who 350 00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:33,000 Speaker 2: were trained in arson investigation to believe all these different 351 00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:36,960 Speaker 2: visual cues were a sign of the use of an 352 00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:43,359 Speaker 2: accelerant and intentionally set fire that was never empirically demonstrated, 353 00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:48,160 Speaker 2: and yet they were doing it, and that's how they 354 00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:51,040 Speaker 2: made a living. That's true, and they thought that they 355 00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:55,600 Speaker 2: had expertise. It's imagine how horrendous it is to believe, 356 00:24:56,080 --> 00:25:01,720 Speaker 2: as a prosecutor or as a so called know arson investigator, 357 00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:06,679 Speaker 2: that you were wrong and you destroyed people's lives. People 358 00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:10,600 Speaker 2: don't get up in the morning and say let's do that, right, 359 00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:15,639 Speaker 2: But it happens and it's very hard to admit to it. 360 00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:17,840 Speaker 1: All right, So why do you think it is that? 361 00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:21,719 Speaker 1: You know, generations of experts have all been proven to 362 00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:25,280 Speaker 1: be wrong. The assumptions they rely on turn out to 363 00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:29,000 Speaker 1: be incorrect, but there's this unwillingness to change. 364 00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:34,880 Speaker 2: Once you have invested yourself in this belief and all 365 00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:40,399 Speaker 2: these very weighty consequences follow, it's very hard to admit 366 00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:45,399 Speaker 2: that you were wrong, even when there's scientific proof that 367 00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:48,960 Speaker 2: you're wrong. John Linini and John de Haan and all 368 00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:53,240 Speaker 2: these various experts, you know, they started off as regular 369 00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:58,639 Speaker 2: ARSON investigators that we're taught to believe these things, but 370 00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:02,520 Speaker 2: engaging in real sessellience and doing these experiments, they realized 371 00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:06,120 Speaker 2: it was all wrong, and they had an enormous amount 372 00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:12,080 Speaker 2: of trouble persuading the forensic science community to stop, and 373 00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:17,040 Speaker 2: they're still fighting about it even to this day. I mean, 374 00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:20,360 Speaker 2: I think that the Willingham case and all these other 375 00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:25,920 Speaker 2: exonerations have exposed the community to it, and you literally 376 00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:31,320 Speaker 2: can see fewer ARSON convictions since that happened. But Josh, 377 00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:36,399 Speaker 2: you're absolutely right, it's mystifying. It's so upsetting that it 378 00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:38,879 Speaker 2: is taking so long to change it. 379 00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:44,160 Speaker 1: And meanwhile these convictions based on this false arson science 380 00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:48,280 Speaker 1: or there's fire evidence, just keep on coming. 381 00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:53,080 Speaker 2: Hantak Lee, whose daughter, who suffered from mental illness, was 382 00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:56,960 Speaker 2: found literally burnt to death, incinerated, you know, in a 383 00:26:56,960 --> 00:27:02,600 Speaker 2: small community in Pennsylvania. He gets convicted of killing his 384 00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:06,240 Speaker 2: daughter intentionally in a fire which did not happen. 385 00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:10,679 Speaker 1: Right. The case of Hantok Lee is just it's really 386 00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:13,320 Speaker 1: really troubling. I mean, here's a guy that spent fifteen 387 00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:16,399 Speaker 1: years in prison for a murder he did not commit. 388 00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:20,080 Speaker 1: And there's a quote that always stuck with me from 389 00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:23,399 Speaker 1: an opinion written by a judge during Hantok Lee's appeal, 390 00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:27,600 Speaker 1: and it was this quote. Much of what was presented 391 00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:31,199 Speaker 1: to Lee's jury as science is now conceded to be 392 00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:36,600 Speaker 1: little more than superstition end quote. I mean, that's so remarkable, 393 00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:39,919 Speaker 1: isn't it. And you know, again, the fact that this 394 00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:42,320 Speaker 1: is still used in the face of quotes like that, 395 00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:45,359 Speaker 1: it's just it's hard to understand. You know. He was 396 00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:49,480 Speaker 1: granted a new trial and finally exonerated, thankfully, in twenty fifteen. 397 00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:55,960 Speaker 2: Another was a Sonya Casey, who is convicted of burning 398 00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:58,560 Speaker 2: Dana house and killing I guess it was her uncle 399 00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:01,760 Speaker 2: Bill Richardson, and and of course it turned out that 400 00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:05,560 Speaker 2: Bill Richardson was actually a heavy smoker and had probably 401 00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:09,240 Speaker 2: fallen asleep with a burning cigarette. But plainly she did 402 00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:12,920 Speaker 2: not start this fire. All the same kind of junk 403 00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:17,159 Speaker 2: science was used in that case. And that's the great tragedy. 404 00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:20,960 Speaker 2: When you look at the arson cases, so many people 405 00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:25,679 Speaker 2: like Ernest Willis or Cameron Todd Willingham or a Hantock League, 406 00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:31,280 Speaker 2: you know, they're all convicted of killing with intentionally set fires. 407 00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:36,359 Speaker 2: They're loved ones. That to me is, you know, the horrible, 408 00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:39,920 Speaker 2: horrible irony of these junk science cases. 409 00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:44,800 Speaker 1: Now, for our listeners, I know, Barry, you know twenty 410 00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:50,520 Speaker 1: years and I've seen you get emotional before and passionate 411 00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:54,160 Speaker 1: about a lot of cases. But I want to go 412 00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:56,600 Speaker 1: back to the Cameron Todd Willingham case for a moment 413 00:28:56,680 --> 00:29:00,200 Speaker 1: because it seems to me that this is one that 414 00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:03,720 Speaker 1: really stuck with you. And it seems to me like 415 00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:05,840 Speaker 1: one of the two or three cases that has really 416 00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:08,840 Speaker 1: haunted you in all your innocence work. 417 00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:13,360 Speaker 2: How can it not haunt you? It should haunt everyone 418 00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:16,480 Speaker 2: in this country. I mean, this is a case that 419 00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:20,520 Speaker 2: ought to change the way the people look at capital 420 00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:25,840 Speaker 2: punishment and forensic science. I think we look we've made 421 00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:29,040 Speaker 2: a lot of progress, but we still haven't corrected the 422 00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:33,760 Speaker 2: biggest injustice of all, and that is the wrongful execution 423 00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:37,840 Speaker 2: of Cameron Todd Willingham. You see the suffering up to 424 00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:41,000 Speaker 2: the very very end, and the execution of an innocent man. 425 00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:46,959 Speaker 2: How could it not haunt you? There's so much importance 426 00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:52,479 Speaker 2: attached with the state finally admitting that it was wrong 427 00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:56,280 Speaker 2: and that an innocent person is executed, and that will 428 00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:58,760 Speaker 2: happen in Texas. It will. 429 00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:16,760 Speaker 1: Something we keep returning back to in this podcast is 430 00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:20,960 Speaker 1: the two thousand and nine National Academy of Sciences Report, 431 00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:25,920 Speaker 1: which is a report published by rigorous scientists that is 432 00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:31,160 Speaker 1: very critical of forensic sciences like arson investigation. In fact, 433 00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:33,800 Speaker 1: the only one that it's not really critical of is DNA. 434 00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:38,640 Speaker 1: And you've done a lot to try to push the 435 00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:43,760 Speaker 1: lessons of this report to overturn convictions based on junk science. 436 00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:49,640 Speaker 2: Truth is The two thousand and nine and National Academy 437 00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:54,360 Speaker 2: of Science Report recommended that there be an independent entity 438 00:30:54,640 --> 00:31:00,680 Speaker 2: in the federal government that would be dedicated to providing 439 00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:05,560 Speaker 2: a scientific basis and oversight to all these forensic science 440 00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:10,760 Speaker 2: disciplines and independent entity. The National Commission on Forensic Science 441 00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:15,280 Speaker 2: was put into place, which had independent experts from lots 442 00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:21,840 Speaker 2: of different scientific communities. When Trump was elected, he abolished 443 00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:23,880 Speaker 2: the National Commission on Forensic Science. 444 00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:29,000 Speaker 1: Look, it's really inspiring to see that, despite all that's 445 00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:32,040 Speaker 1: gone wrong and all that hasn't worked, that you're still hopeful. 446 00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:36,440 Speaker 1: Because something else that's so shocking is that this issue 447 00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:40,800 Speaker 1: about what kind of evidence should be considered scientific facts, 448 00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:43,480 Speaker 1: something that can literally determine whether or not some much 449 00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:45,960 Speaker 1: live or die based on a crime they may not 450 00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:49,840 Speaker 1: have committed. It's all still being treated like a political issue, 451 00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:54,360 Speaker 1: and you have personal experience with these political barriers. Yet 452 00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:57,880 Speaker 1: you're still hopeful despite all of the harm that's been 453 00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:03,280 Speaker 1: done and continues to be done by political officials, by presidents, 454 00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:09,040 Speaker 1: by judges who, unlike Lentini, refuse to see the light, 455 00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:09,920 Speaker 1: so to speak. 456 00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:13,520 Speaker 2: You know, it becomes this big echo chamber. Junk science 457 00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:17,480 Speaker 2: is admitted by one court, right, and all the experts 458 00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:21,160 Speaker 2: can then testify again and again and again, even though 459 00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:24,800 Speaker 2: it was never properly validated in the first place. And 460 00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:27,280 Speaker 2: we've had a lot of that, and judges really have 461 00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:30,280 Speaker 2: to be rigorous on dealing with it. And the problem 462 00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:33,600 Speaker 2: with judges is that we all went to law school 463 00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:37,280 Speaker 2: and not medical school. The judges really do have to 464 00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:42,160 Speaker 2: be better in terms of getting into the nuts and 465 00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:45,680 Speaker 2: bolts of the science. It's intimidating to them, just as 466 00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:47,600 Speaker 2: it's intimidating to a lot of lawyers. 467 00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:54,360 Speaker 1: You might be listening to this wondering what you can 468 00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:58,640 Speaker 1: do to help. I want every listener to consider that 469 00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:01,920 Speaker 1: even those who are wrongly convicted and are lucky enough 470 00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:05,280 Speaker 1: to be released from prison, their lives are just never 471 00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:09,720 Speaker 1: the same. Let's take the example of Sonia Casey. She's 472 00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:12,920 Speaker 1: the woman Barry shk mentioned who was accused of murdering 473 00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:16,280 Speaker 1: her uncle by arson. We know that miss Casey was 474 00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:20,240 Speaker 1: innocent because, amongst other evidence, it was later found during 475 00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:23,720 Speaker 1: the autopsy of her uncle that he most likely died 476 00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:26,960 Speaker 1: from a heart attack. There was no soot in his lungs, 477 00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:29,360 Speaker 1: which would have been there if he had in fact 478 00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:33,959 Speaker 1: died in the fire. Instead, there was fluid in his lungs, 479 00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:37,120 Speaker 1: so the evidence supported the conclusion that he was dead 480 00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:42,440 Speaker 1: before the fire had even spread. Nevertheless, Casey was sentenced 481 00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:47,720 Speaker 1: to ninety nine years in prison. Sonya Casey was eventually exonerated, 482 00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:51,360 Speaker 1: but the stain of her wrongful conviction meant that on 483 00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:54,560 Speaker 1: every job application or when she would try to rent 484 00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:57,080 Speaker 1: an apartment, she would either have to check a box 485 00:33:57,120 --> 00:33:59,600 Speaker 1: saying that she had been convicted of a crime, or 486 00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:02,840 Speaker 1: it would be revealed on a background check that made 487 00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:06,240 Speaker 1: it nearly impossible for her to find work or a 488 00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:10,560 Speaker 1: place to live. So, if you own a business, or 489 00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:13,799 Speaker 1: you're a landlord, or you're just in a position to 490 00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:17,560 Speaker 1: either approve or reject someone for work or a place 491 00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:20,360 Speaker 1: to live, and someone checks the box that they have 492 00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:24,040 Speaker 1: previously been convicted of a crime, please talk to them, 493 00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:28,759 Speaker 1: learn about the circumstances of their arrest, the accusations against them, 494 00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:32,600 Speaker 1: who they are now as a human being. Perhaps you'll 495 00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:35,480 Speaker 1: find that they were the victim, yes, the victim of 496 00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:39,719 Speaker 1: a wrongful conviction. Or maybe it's just that they've done 497 00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:42,640 Speaker 1: something in their past and are no longer that person. 498 00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:47,320 Speaker 1: The great civil rights attorney Brian Stevenson said it best. 499 00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:50,520 Speaker 1: Each one of us is more than the worst thing 500 00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:54,400 Speaker 1: we've ever done. The true measure of our character is 501 00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:59,280 Speaker 1: how we treat the poor, the disfavored, the accused, the incarcerated, 502 00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:02,640 Speaker 1: and the condemned. I think we can all learn something 503 00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:16,680 Speaker 1: from that. Next week will analyze hair microscopy, the profoundly 504 00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:20,160 Speaker 1: flawed junk science that attempts to use human hair to 505 00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:23,480 Speaker 1: accuse and convict people of crimes they did not commit. 506 00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:28,759 Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction Junk Science is a production of Lava for 507 00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:33,040 Speaker 1: Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number One. Thanks 508 00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:35,839 Speaker 1: to our executive producer Jason Flam and the team at 509 00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:40,160 Speaker 1: Signal Company Number one executive producer Kevin Wardis and senior 510 00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:44,600 Speaker 1: producers Karen Kornhaber and Britz Spangler. Our music was composed 511 00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:47,840 Speaker 1: by Jay Ralph. You can follow me on Instagram at 512 00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:52,440 Speaker 1: dubin Josh, follow the Wrongful Conviction podcast on Facebook and 513 00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:56,200 Speaker 1: on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Twitter at wrong 514 00:35:56,280 --> 00:35:56,680 Speaker 1: Conviction