1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:05,200 Speaker 1: Well, we are taking a little bit of a week 2 00:00:05,559 --> 00:00:10,080 Speaker 1: off or an episode off, because some of us are 3 00:00:10,920 --> 00:00:14,280 Speaker 1: getting back into Atlanta, some of us are leaving our 4 00:00:14,320 --> 00:00:19,239 Speaker 1: affair metropolis for a bit. We're passing Noel like ships 5 00:00:19,239 --> 00:00:22,720 Speaker 1: in the night, ships in the ridiculous ships in the night. Indeed, 6 00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:26,560 Speaker 1: ships in the Tuesday, ridiculous ships in the tuesdays. Right, 7 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:29,920 Speaker 1: it is, in fact a national holiday. President's Day. What's 8 00:00:29,920 --> 00:00:31,320 Speaker 1: that one about again? Is that the one where all 9 00:00:31,320 --> 00:00:33,680 Speaker 1: the presidents were born at the same time, on the 10 00:00:33,720 --> 00:00:37,160 Speaker 1: same day. It's commemorating that time when they all went 11 00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:41,720 Speaker 1: to this same karaoke place totally on accident. God, So 12 00:00:41,760 --> 00:00:45,559 Speaker 1: we will be observing that sacred day with this classic 13 00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:48,040 Speaker 1: which is actually a fun one from way back in 14 00:00:48,159 --> 00:00:52,760 Speaker 1: the archives about the time or the scientific era where 15 00:00:52,880 --> 00:00:55,960 Speaker 1: researchers thought it was a cool idea to hide under 16 00:00:56,120 --> 00:01:01,240 Speaker 1: children's beds like the monsters. They truly were. M Yeah, 17 00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:03,680 Speaker 1: are we gonna call it an era or was it 18 00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:07,679 Speaker 1: just a very strange series of you know what, you 19 00:01:07,720 --> 00:01:10,680 Speaker 1: know what era? I think I think it was more 20 00:01:10,680 --> 00:01:14,080 Speaker 1: of a moment, you know perhaps, but well, every every 21 00:01:14,200 --> 00:01:18,160 Speaker 1: moment is an erat itself. It's very, very true it's very, 22 00:01:18,200 --> 00:01:22,000 Speaker 1: very true. But here we go with this classic episode. 23 00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:51,840 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome to the show, 24 00:01:52,040 --> 00:01:55,320 Speaker 1: Ladies and gentlemen. Not only is my name Ben, but 25 00:01:55,520 --> 00:01:59,080 Speaker 1: you have my absolute guarantee that I will not conduct 26 00:01:59,120 --> 00:02:03,320 Speaker 1: an experiment on you in this episode. Scientists be creeping 27 00:02:04,680 --> 00:02:10,720 Speaker 1: creep Ben, while you're sleeping. Yeah. Man, it's about creepy scientists. 28 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:13,520 Speaker 1: So this one's about. My name's Nolan. This is Ridiculous History, 29 00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:16,960 Speaker 1: and you know it's it's a tough one, Ben, to 30 00:02:17,480 --> 00:02:22,359 Speaker 1: you know, conduct research on people who don't know that 31 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:27,080 Speaker 1: you're doing that thing right right now. In the past, 32 00:02:27,320 --> 00:02:30,920 Speaker 1: sometimes when you and I are hanging out outside of 33 00:02:30,919 --> 00:02:35,600 Speaker 1: work or with our super producer Casey Pegraham, I have 34 00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:41,400 Speaker 1: been wont to do a little social experiments you. So 35 00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:43,640 Speaker 1: that's why I had to promise I wouldn't do anything 36 00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:46,680 Speaker 1: in this episode. And I do really appreciate you humoring 37 00:02:46,800 --> 00:02:50,360 Speaker 1: me with that stuff. Yeah, man, ladies and gentlemen, friends 38 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:53,000 Speaker 1: and neighbors. To take a quote from my dear friend 39 00:02:53,080 --> 00:02:55,560 Speaker 1: Ben Bowling, there will be times where I will turn 40 00:02:55,680 --> 00:02:57,920 Speaker 1: up to a place like a bar, restaurant or what 41 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:00,239 Speaker 1: have you, and I'll be waiting around for then to 42 00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:02,200 Speaker 1: show up, only to realize that he's been under the 43 00:03:02,240 --> 00:03:05,920 Speaker 1: table the whole time with a tiny Moleski notebook observing 44 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:10,360 Speaker 1: my every move and tick. Yeah, and I apologize for that. 45 00:03:10,440 --> 00:03:13,080 Speaker 1: I bought the next round. That's fair, and we learned 46 00:03:13,080 --> 00:03:16,040 Speaker 1: a lot. It's for science, Well, that's the thing. It's 47 00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:21,680 Speaker 1: it's a conundrum, right, because it's like this ethical quandary 48 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:25,720 Speaker 1: where in order to do behavioral research and really get 49 00:03:25,760 --> 00:03:28,840 Speaker 1: to the heart of what makes people tick and more 50 00:03:28,919 --> 00:03:35,240 Speaker 1: or less conduct these experiments, a little deception is sometimes required, right, right, 51 00:03:35,320 --> 00:03:38,720 Speaker 1: And we'll dive into this, but the top level of 52 00:03:38,720 --> 00:03:42,280 Speaker 1: it is essentially that people's behavior changes when they know 53 00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:46,119 Speaker 1: that they are being observed. There's a reason why security 54 00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:48,880 Speaker 1: cameras have a monitor that you can see at a 55 00:03:48,920 --> 00:03:51,760 Speaker 1: bank or at a gas station. It's because of this 56 00:03:51,920 --> 00:03:54,960 Speaker 1: same psychological principle. Yeah, you've ever gone into a grocery 57 00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:56,400 Speaker 1: store and you see the monitor up there and you 58 00:03:56,440 --> 00:03:59,520 Speaker 1: kind of look at yourself and realize how unnatural and 59 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:02,640 Speaker 1: strange look. That's because you're looking at yourself, looking at yourself, 60 00:04:02,640 --> 00:04:06,200 Speaker 1: and you were adjusting your look to match your expectations 61 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:08,440 Speaker 1: of what you think you should be, and that's that's 62 00:04:08,480 --> 00:04:12,440 Speaker 1: never what you really are, right. And today's story or 63 00:04:12,480 --> 00:04:18,160 Speaker 1: today's starting point is an example of exactly the conundrum, 64 00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:22,800 Speaker 1: the dilemma that Noel describes. Back in the nineteen thirties, 65 00:04:22,839 --> 00:04:27,200 Speaker 1: there were two researchers, Mary Henley and Marion B. Hubble, 66 00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:33,360 Speaker 1: and they realized that they were running into this during 67 00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:40,120 Speaker 1: their research on egocentricity in adult conversation, so essentially listening 68 00:04:40,160 --> 00:04:46,440 Speaker 1: to adults talk to measure whether they're ego centric tendencies 69 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:50,720 Speaker 1: evaporated or increased or changed how they changed since childhood. 70 00:04:50,800 --> 00:04:52,560 Speaker 1: And as it turns out, that is also the name 71 00:04:52,600 --> 00:04:55,440 Speaker 1: of my favorite Emerson, Lake and Palmer record. It is 72 00:04:55,640 --> 00:04:59,960 Speaker 1: no Oh Brain Salad Surgery. I don't know I'm fun 73 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:04,120 Speaker 1: I think I'm funny and I'm not. I think you're hilarious, buddy. Yeah, man, 74 00:05:04,240 --> 00:05:07,600 Speaker 1: I appreciate that. I well, whenever I make whenever it 75 00:05:07,640 --> 00:05:10,840 Speaker 1: crack jokes or puns that are originated by you. I 76 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:13,800 Speaker 1: also like to phrase it as that was a Noel 77 00:05:13,839 --> 00:05:16,599 Speaker 1: Brown piece. I do appreciate that, and you know that 78 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:19,719 Speaker 1: credit where credit is due in speaking of that, this 79 00:05:19,839 --> 00:05:25,640 Speaker 1: study Eccentricity in Adult Conversation by Henley and Hubble was 80 00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:29,520 Speaker 1: published in the Journal of Social Psychology in May of 81 00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:33,480 Speaker 1: nineteen thirty eight. So, as part of Henley's graduate work 82 00:05:33,560 --> 00:05:38,880 Speaker 1: in psychology, she and her associate Hubble, we're trying to 83 00:05:38,920 --> 00:05:43,600 Speaker 1: figure out whether children, over time as they age, become 84 00:05:43,760 --> 00:05:48,480 Speaker 1: less egocentric. Let's unpack that just to touch meaning less selfish, 85 00:05:48,680 --> 00:05:52,360 Speaker 1: less focused on the self, and more outwardly observant or 86 00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:54,920 Speaker 1: yeah in a way. And this is this is a 87 00:05:54,960 --> 00:06:00,880 Speaker 1: great moment to explore this. So egocentrism is essentially the 88 00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:06,800 Speaker 1: inability to differentiate between yourself and the other, whatever the 89 00:06:06,839 --> 00:06:09,640 Speaker 1: other might be. So to a lot of people, this 90 00:06:09,680 --> 00:06:13,840 Speaker 1: would sound like narcissism, right, It's different because a person 91 00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:17,760 Speaker 1: who is egocentric does believe they're the center, you know, 92 00:06:17,800 --> 00:06:20,280 Speaker 1: the protagonist of their own story, which I think most 93 00:06:20,279 --> 00:06:24,440 Speaker 1: people do if at some level. Yeah, But unlike a narcissist, 94 00:06:24,839 --> 00:06:30,039 Speaker 1: they don't receive gratification from their own admiration, like a 95 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:34,240 Speaker 1: narcissist might feel gratification when they're walking around going ah, 96 00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:36,640 Speaker 1: man talking in the mirror, I am so great. I 97 00:06:36,760 --> 00:06:39,480 Speaker 1: see this is almost subconscious where we're talking about here, right, 98 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:44,920 Speaker 1: But for egocentrist it's simply it's more like you are 99 00:06:45,440 --> 00:06:49,120 Speaker 1: a universe unto yourself, and you may not receive the 100 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:53,039 Speaker 1: same like warm fuzzies from the approval of others. You 101 00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:54,560 Speaker 1: might not need it. I guess that's what I mean 102 00:06:54,560 --> 00:06:56,599 Speaker 1: when I say subconscious. It's almost just like this innate 103 00:06:56,839 --> 00:07:02,160 Speaker 1: kind of characteristic that's very much present in kids. I mean, 104 00:07:02,279 --> 00:07:04,280 Speaker 1: if you ever spend any time around kids, you know 105 00:07:04,360 --> 00:07:07,640 Speaker 1: that they kind of live in this like wonderful little 106 00:07:07,720 --> 00:07:11,600 Speaker 1: kid bubble where everything revolves around them and to varying 107 00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:15,720 Speaker 1: degrees of awfulness, you know. And it's not malicious, That's 108 00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:18,640 Speaker 1: what I mean. Yeah, it's just it's the natural starting 109 00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:22,080 Speaker 1: point for the vast majority of human mind totally. But 110 00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:25,280 Speaker 1: there are certain kids that are just garbage kids. They're 111 00:07:25,360 --> 00:07:27,880 Speaker 1: just like, what is wrong with you? Do you not 112 00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:31,240 Speaker 1: see that your actions affect other people like at all? 113 00:07:31,760 --> 00:07:33,960 Speaker 1: I don't know. I'm speaking from the position of a 114 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:38,200 Speaker 1: parent who tries very hard to engender non selfishness in 115 00:07:38,280 --> 00:07:40,320 Speaker 1: my child. So when I see other kids that who's 116 00:07:40,360 --> 00:07:43,640 Speaker 1: friends with a school that are just oh they're the worst. 117 00:07:43,800 --> 00:07:45,920 Speaker 1: But your kid's cool. My kids cool. But you know, 118 00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:49,240 Speaker 1: she has her moments. But I think that that egocentricity, 119 00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:53,520 Speaker 1: there are varying degrees of it. So they were they 120 00:07:53,520 --> 00:07:58,720 Speaker 1: were confronting this, and they knew that egocentrism exists, is 121 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:01,600 Speaker 1: very common in children, and they wanted to see if 122 00:08:01,640 --> 00:08:03,960 Speaker 1: it declines and what that rate of decline would be. 123 00:08:04,400 --> 00:08:07,720 Speaker 1: So they immediately ran into problem number one, which is 124 00:08:07,760 --> 00:08:11,360 Speaker 1: that you can't just ask somebody when they're eight and 125 00:08:11,400 --> 00:08:14,120 Speaker 1: then go back when they're in college and say, hey, 126 00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:16,920 Speaker 1: do you how about now do you feel less selfish about? Now? 127 00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:20,040 Speaker 1: We met when you were nine and you were you 128 00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:23,800 Speaker 1: were a bad kid. So it requires a little bit 129 00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:27,200 Speaker 1: of subterfuge, right, And so they were gonna they were 130 00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:33,480 Speaker 1: gonna find the stuff out through monitoring real conversations with 131 00:08:33,920 --> 00:08:36,480 Speaker 1: college students, and they were going to do this by 132 00:08:36,480 --> 00:08:40,600 Speaker 1: any means necessary. So in their study, in order to 133 00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:47,360 Speaker 1: keep their presence a secret, what did they do, Ben, Oh, 134 00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:50,760 Speaker 1: they would eavesdrop in the dormitory smoking rooms. Keep in mind, 135 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:53,640 Speaker 1: this is the thirties, right, so there's a smoking room 136 00:08:53,640 --> 00:08:56,560 Speaker 1: in every there's probably a smoking room for kids, right right, 137 00:08:56,640 --> 00:09:01,800 Speaker 1: right right. And they were listening in the washrooms, the restrooms, 138 00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:05,280 Speaker 1: which is entirely illegal, and they tap the phones, but 139 00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:07,960 Speaker 1: the weirdest thing that you and I found was that 140 00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:13,319 Speaker 1: they physically went into these students rooms and hid under 141 00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:17,440 Speaker 1: the bed. Like how long do you do that? Yeah? 142 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:20,400 Speaker 1: I don't know. I'm just crickets in my head. It's like, 143 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:24,960 Speaker 1: WHOA whose idea is this? I mean, I guess it's 144 00:09:25,160 --> 00:09:27,960 Speaker 1: brilliant on the one hand, because you're gonna get some 145 00:09:28,640 --> 00:09:31,679 Speaker 1: real information, but like, what's the process like here? Like 146 00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:35,840 Speaker 1: as they're breaking and entering involved, they just post up 147 00:09:36,160 --> 00:09:39,240 Speaker 1: like all day and just hang out until their subjects arrive, 148 00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:41,319 Speaker 1: and then they're just on the ready, like you at 149 00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:43,880 Speaker 1: the bar, under the table with their notepads. Sure. Yeah, 150 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:48,280 Speaker 1: that's the weird thing because honestly, these are college students 151 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:52,840 Speaker 1: and physically you would have to wait until they leave 152 00:09:53,160 --> 00:09:55,679 Speaker 1: so that you can leave. But what creeps me out 153 00:09:55,720 --> 00:09:59,640 Speaker 1: about it is this entirely speculative on my part, Volks. 154 00:10:00,559 --> 00:10:03,360 Speaker 1: I am more than fifty percent certain that they probably 155 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:10,200 Speaker 1: had to lay under those beds while yeah, yeah, yeah, 156 00:10:10,240 --> 00:10:12,720 Speaker 1: you know, you know what I'm talking about, folks. Yeah, 157 00:10:12,760 --> 00:10:15,040 Speaker 1: we're a family show, but I think we're pretty clear 158 00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:17,120 Speaker 1: on that one because they're called jumping on the bed. 159 00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:21,000 Speaker 1: That's what I'm talking about. That's what we called it 160 00:10:21,080 --> 00:10:25,400 Speaker 1: in the thirties. So they didn't just stay on the 161 00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:28,120 Speaker 1: campus though, Yeah, No, they like went out into the 162 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:33,599 Speaker 1: world and eavesdropped in hotel lobbies, waiting rooms, doctor's offices, 163 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:38,160 Speaker 1: movie theaters, restaurants, even on like in to the street 164 00:10:38,240 --> 00:10:42,800 Speaker 1: car named or maybe not named Desire right, right, And 165 00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:47,520 Speaker 1: they were pursuing these subjects, so they were actively stalking 166 00:10:47,559 --> 00:10:51,160 Speaker 1: them in spine on them, and they would always have 167 00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:54,240 Speaker 1: their notepads handy so they could write down exactly what 168 00:10:54,280 --> 00:10:57,640 Speaker 1: the people were saying and then judge it on the egocentrism. 169 00:10:57,679 --> 00:10:59,880 Speaker 1: And you know what's interesting to me about this is 170 00:11:00,600 --> 00:11:03,319 Speaker 1: if any of the subjects proved to be you know, 171 00:11:03,559 --> 00:11:08,360 Speaker 1: extremely ecocentric, still, that's really interesting. They probably, you know, 172 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:10,200 Speaker 1: they may or may not like the approval of others, 173 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:12,200 Speaker 1: but I don't know if they would be as weirded 174 00:11:12,240 --> 00:11:14,640 Speaker 1: out by the stalking or if it would make sense 175 00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:17,559 Speaker 1: to them that someone else was also paying a huge 176 00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:19,679 Speaker 1: amount of attention. Yeah, it's like a Truman Show kind 177 00:11:19,679 --> 00:11:22,160 Speaker 1: of scenario, which's like, clearly this is all for me 178 00:11:22,520 --> 00:11:26,079 Speaker 1: and I am the star here. But the you know, 179 00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:28,800 Speaker 1: they weren't just taking notes, right, Ben I mean, they 180 00:11:28,800 --> 00:11:33,400 Speaker 1: were essentially word for word these conversations, you know, in 181 00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:36,559 Speaker 1: the moment. And we have a great quote here from 182 00:11:36,720 --> 00:11:40,680 Speaker 1: a clinical psychologist by the name of doctor Ali Matu 183 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:43,400 Speaker 1: who has a great YouTube show called The psych Show, 184 00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:48,840 Speaker 1: and he kind of helped shed some light on what 185 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:51,760 Speaker 1: the surrounding context of this experiment might have been. So 186 00:11:51,840 --> 00:11:56,880 Speaker 1: doctor Matu says, quote, the hallmark of psychological science is experimentation, 187 00:11:57,400 --> 00:12:02,040 Speaker 1: highly controlling an environment and only manipulating one experimental variable. 188 00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:04,200 Speaker 1: While this type of research can tell us a lot 189 00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:08,120 Speaker 1: about the relationship between cause and effect, experimental studies can 190 00:12:08,160 --> 00:12:12,480 Speaker 1: sometimes lack external validity. So give it to us, Ben, 191 00:12:12,559 --> 00:12:15,600 Speaker 1: So that makes sense. The idea that if you really 192 00:12:15,679 --> 00:12:19,880 Speaker 1: want to understand a process or a phenomenon, you want 193 00:12:19,920 --> 00:12:24,199 Speaker 1: everything else in all possible senses to be the same. 194 00:12:24,440 --> 00:12:27,040 Speaker 1: That's one of the reasons why, and this is probably 195 00:12:27,040 --> 00:12:29,240 Speaker 1: for a different episode, but that's one of the reasons 196 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:33,600 Speaker 1: why historically so many scientists were interested in experiments with 197 00:12:33,640 --> 00:12:36,800 Speaker 1: identical twins. It's closest you're going to get to the 198 00:12:36,840 --> 00:12:39,480 Speaker 1: same person, who is just two people, and then what, 199 00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:42,640 Speaker 1: you know, what kind of what kind of stuff can 200 00:12:42,679 --> 00:12:46,319 Speaker 1: you do? And that's met with some fascinating and then 201 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:49,160 Speaker 1: also disturbing results. And we certainly know that there are 202 00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:51,880 Speaker 1: versions of this that are manipulated. But it makes me 203 00:12:51,920 --> 00:12:56,040 Speaker 1: think of wildlife photographers or a documentarian that you know, 204 00:12:56,280 --> 00:12:59,079 Speaker 1: when in order to paint the most realistic picture of 205 00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:02,480 Speaker 1: an animal and it's natural habitat, you can't go poking 206 00:13:02,559 --> 00:13:04,319 Speaker 1: in with a stick. You got to stay as far 207 00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:06,400 Speaker 1: away as possible and not not let it know that 208 00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:08,640 Speaker 1: you're there. And you know, after all, we're all just 209 00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:13,920 Speaker 1: like animals basically, right, who are who are very aware 210 00:13:14,360 --> 00:13:17,959 Speaker 1: of being observed by an external source. So the problem 211 00:13:17,960 --> 00:13:22,480 Speaker 1: with an observational study wherein, if you and I were scientists, 212 00:13:22,520 --> 00:13:25,560 Speaker 1: The problem with an observational study wherein you and I 213 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:30,120 Speaker 1: are also being observed by the participants in the study, 214 00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:35,400 Speaker 1: whether or not they have consented to this. The problem 215 00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:38,439 Speaker 1: is that it will it will falsify the information, right, 216 00:13:38,480 --> 00:13:43,480 Speaker 1: it'll it'll taint. Taint. That's a great word, it's one 217 00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:48,160 Speaker 1: of your favorite words. According to doctor Matu, this is 218 00:13:48,760 --> 00:13:53,760 Speaker 1: known as objective self awareness. So we have another quote 219 00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:56,440 Speaker 1: from him where he points out this can be helpful 220 00:13:56,480 --> 00:13:59,679 Speaker 1: in a lot of situations. Banks and other high security environments. 221 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:04,040 Speaker 1: You security camera footage of yourself to trigger objective self 222 00:14:04,040 --> 00:14:07,880 Speaker 1: awareness and reduce the chances that you might do something stupid. 223 00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:10,920 Speaker 1: Don't be a dummy. You know you're being watched, right, 224 00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:15,120 Speaker 1: you know, act accordingly exactly. It definitely changes your behavior, 225 00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:19,280 Speaker 1: and that can be manipulated to get you to get 226 00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:22,160 Speaker 1: in line. Yeah, I mean, yeah exactly. And then so 227 00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:24,880 Speaker 1: if you and I are doing your hypothetical experiment and 228 00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:28,440 Speaker 1: people know that we are observing them, then they may 229 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:31,760 Speaker 1: do things differently. They may try to do what they 230 00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:35,000 Speaker 1: think we want them to do right. They may try 231 00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:41,400 Speaker 1: to act as they assume society expects them to act right, 232 00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:44,840 Speaker 1: their values, their mores, or you know, if they're if 233 00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:46,880 Speaker 1: they're being a real pill about it, they might just 234 00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:50,040 Speaker 1: do the opposite of what they think is expected. Either way, 235 00:14:50,080 --> 00:14:54,320 Speaker 1: you cannot deny that that knowledge of the observer it 236 00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:57,880 Speaker 1: has a serious effect. But in Henley and Hubble's time, 237 00:14:58,720 --> 00:15:01,840 Speaker 1: this notion wasn't really a thing. This idea of objective 238 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:06,240 Speaker 1: self awareness hadn't really been codified, and they also were 239 00:15:06,280 --> 00:15:11,440 Speaker 1: missing a very important thing that came about not do 240 00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:15,520 Speaker 1: long after this study. But it's the idea of informed 241 00:15:15,560 --> 00:15:20,520 Speaker 1: consent that was codified in the Nuremberg Code after World 242 00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:33,640 Speaker 1: War Two, and the Nuremberg Code lays out very very 243 00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:40,040 Speaker 1: explicitly what researchers are expected to share and what they're 244 00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:43,760 Speaker 1: expected to receive from their subjects in the form of 245 00:15:44,120 --> 00:15:46,840 Speaker 1: complete transparency. Let's call it so it goes. I'm just 246 00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:48,440 Speaker 1: going to read a little bit of it. The voluntary 247 00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:52,400 Speaker 1: concent of human subjectivity is absolutely essential. This means that 248 00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:55,400 Speaker 1: the person involves should have legal capacity to give consent, 249 00:15:55,800 --> 00:15:58,400 Speaker 1: should be so situated as to be able to exercise 250 00:15:58,560 --> 00:16:02,440 Speaker 1: free power of choice without the intervention of any element 251 00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:08,000 Speaker 1: of force, fraud, deceit, duress, overreaching, or other ulterior form 252 00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:11,400 Speaker 1: of constraint or coercion, and should have sufficient knowledge and 253 00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:15,160 Speaker 1: comprehension of the elements of the subject matter involved as 254 00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:19,160 Speaker 1: to enable him to make an understanding and enlightened decision, 255 00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:25,040 Speaker 1: which is super important. We cannot overemphasize this. We can't 256 00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:30,600 Speaker 1: say it enough because the idea of informed consent is 257 00:16:30,880 --> 00:16:34,280 Speaker 1: one of the foundations, one of the cornerstones of what 258 00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:39,240 Speaker 1: we would consider ethical science and experimentation. And when we 259 00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:41,560 Speaker 1: say that they have to have this power of choice 260 00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:44,920 Speaker 1: and that there shouldn't be an ulterior motive, we also 261 00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:50,960 Speaker 1: mean that consent doesn't count as agreement if it's impaired 262 00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:54,400 Speaker 1: by a number of other factors, like high levels of stress, 263 00:16:54,680 --> 00:16:59,320 Speaker 1: you know, like making someone feel that they must sign 264 00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:02,720 Speaker 1: this thing, right they have. If you have to sign 265 00:17:03,040 --> 00:17:07,040 Speaker 1: a thing in an experiment and they quote unquote make 266 00:17:07,119 --> 00:17:10,159 Speaker 1: you do it, you're not really agree. It's like a 267 00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:14,359 Speaker 1: form of coercion or intimidation almost exactly, especially if there's 268 00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:17,520 Speaker 1: pay involved. And you know, if people are submitting themselves 269 00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:22,359 Speaker 1: to studies because they need medical treatment and there is 270 00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:25,320 Speaker 1: that's involved, as as as part of being in the study, 271 00:17:25,359 --> 00:17:28,000 Speaker 1: you get treatment that you couldn't otherwise afford, or if 272 00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:30,040 Speaker 1: you're like, you know, they're these sleep studies where people 273 00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:31,960 Speaker 1: get paid. You hear about them on the you know, 274 00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:34,320 Speaker 1: college radio stations all the time. They're asking for you know, 275 00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:37,040 Speaker 1: smokers studies. There's sleep studies and you get a little 276 00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:39,960 Speaker 1: bit of money. But some people, you know, probably really 277 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:41,879 Speaker 1: need that money. And if there's a sense that you know, 278 00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:43,959 Speaker 1: you have to sign this document where you're not going 279 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:47,320 Speaker 1: to get paid, right, and that's probably could taint the 280 00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:53,199 Speaker 1: research even more. I actually found this really interesting paper 281 00:17:53,640 --> 00:17:58,439 Speaker 1: about deception and informed consent in social behavior by Michael 282 00:17:58,560 --> 00:18:02,240 Speaker 1: Chang Tech Tah who is a researcher at the chung 283 00:18:02,359 --> 00:18:08,000 Speaker 1: Shan Medical University in Taiwan, and he really concisely goes 284 00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:12,119 Speaker 1: through kind of the history of informed consent and deception 285 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:15,280 Speaker 1: and how they kind of have a relationship with each 286 00:18:15,320 --> 00:18:19,879 Speaker 1: other because, as he points out, there in some situations 287 00:18:20,520 --> 00:18:24,560 Speaker 1: a little deception is almost necessary to get the right results. 288 00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:28,920 Speaker 1: So three examples of deception in research that he points out, 289 00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:31,000 Speaker 1: one of which, you know, it's not in his list, 290 00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:32,879 Speaker 1: but the story we're talking about with you know, the 291 00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:37,000 Speaker 1: researchers hiding under beds definitely falls into this. The ones 292 00:18:37,040 --> 00:18:40,080 Speaker 1: that he points out are the Tuskegee Syphilis Study, which 293 00:18:40,119 --> 00:18:41,840 Speaker 1: is kind of which was in nineteen thirty two to 294 00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:45,120 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy two in Tuskegee, Alabama. And the idea here 295 00:18:45,359 --> 00:18:49,600 Speaker 1: was to isolate the natural progression of untreated syphilis in 296 00:18:50,080 --> 00:18:54,639 Speaker 1: rural black men who were, you know, under the poverty line. 297 00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:59,400 Speaker 1: And there were six hundred African American individuals who had 298 00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:03,040 Speaker 1: control acted syphilis and they were gathered up and included 299 00:19:03,119 --> 00:19:09,679 Speaker 1: in this study, but they were not given the knowledge 300 00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:12,640 Speaker 1: of the fact that there was already an effective treatment 301 00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:17,640 Speaker 1: for this disease and withholding that information from them put 302 00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:20,520 Speaker 1: them in serious jeopardy. Well, they were also they were 303 00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:23,879 Speaker 1: also actively lied to because they were under the impression 304 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:27,560 Speaker 1: that they were receiving treatment, but they were not, because 305 00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:30,800 Speaker 1: they were just being used as guinea pigs to study 306 00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:33,359 Speaker 1: progression of that. We've looked into this and other shows 307 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:36,760 Speaker 1: as well, and one of the big, even today controversial 308 00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:40,160 Speaker 1: things is that the official stance of the US government 309 00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:43,840 Speaker 1: is that they didn't infect people with syphilis. They just 310 00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:47,040 Speaker 1: didn't help them when they said they would, or they 311 00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:49,320 Speaker 1: said they were helping them, And then a lot of 312 00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:53,359 Speaker 1: people will question that and they'll say, no, they injected 313 00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:56,280 Speaker 1: them with syphilis and watched it happen under the guise 314 00:19:56,320 --> 00:20:01,040 Speaker 1: of some sort of other medicinal treatment. But either case, 315 00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:05,919 Speaker 1: it's villainous, it's inhuman to do that, to let these 316 00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:10,080 Speaker 1: people deteriorate while there is clearly a cure. And this 317 00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:12,879 Speaker 1: is actually covered in the Nuremberg Code as well. It 318 00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:15,840 Speaker 1: says at the end of the first rule that this 319 00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:18,760 Speaker 1: latter element requires that before the acceptance of an affirmative 320 00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:21,200 Speaker 1: decision by the experimental subject, there should be made known 321 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:23,800 Speaker 1: to him the nature, duration and purpose of the experiment, 322 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:25,920 Speaker 1: the method and means by which it is to be conducted, 323 00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:29,960 Speaker 1: all inconveniences and hazards reasonably to be expected, and the 324 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:32,840 Speaker 1: effects upon his health or a person which may possibly 325 00:20:32,840 --> 00:20:36,120 Speaker 1: come from his participation in the experiment. So I would 326 00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:40,680 Speaker 1: say that like knowingly depriving someone of a treatment that exists, 327 00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:45,320 Speaker 1: is a form of harming that person's health. Oh absolutely, 328 00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:48,200 Speaker 1: especially like I said, when the person likely entered into 329 00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:52,840 Speaker 1: the experiment because of the potential for getting help right. 330 00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:57,000 Speaker 1: And that's why you will often see in a college study. 331 00:20:57,040 --> 00:20:59,280 Speaker 1: I don't know if you participated in any of these 332 00:20:59,359 --> 00:21:02,119 Speaker 1: during your cooling years. Now. I have not, but you know, 333 00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:04,159 Speaker 1: it's never too late to try. Yeah, I did it. 334 00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:06,040 Speaker 1: It's a I did it because I thought it was 335 00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:08,360 Speaker 1: a lot of fun, and you never know if you're 336 00:21:08,359 --> 00:21:10,879 Speaker 1: going to be in one of those influential studies that 337 00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:14,560 Speaker 1: what was it. I did a number of things, and 338 00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:19,520 Speaker 1: most of them were psychological things. There was one that 339 00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:24,359 Speaker 1: was framed as a market research thing. But it became 340 00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:27,200 Speaker 1: pretty apparent to me part way through they were asking 341 00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:29,600 Speaker 1: us questions about gum, and it became apparent to me 342 00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:32,399 Speaker 1: part way through It's like, this is not about gum. 343 00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:34,359 Speaker 1: So this is exactly what we're talking about. I mean, 344 00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:37,480 Speaker 1: obviously they didn't, you know, fail to treat your late 345 00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:41,399 Speaker 1: stage syphilis, but they were withholding information you do not 346 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:44,359 Speaker 1: have late stage syphi with my juicy fruit. Yes, and 347 00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:48,000 Speaker 1: that's almost as bad. Yeah, exactly, exactly, So in this 348 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:50,520 Speaker 1: in this paper that we were talking about from Michael 349 00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:57,000 Speaker 1: Chang Tech Tie. Another example of deception in research is 350 00:21:57,040 --> 00:22:01,200 Speaker 1: what's called the Good Samaritan Behavior Study, which was a 351 00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:06,640 Speaker 1: study that was meant to observe so called bystander apathy. 352 00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:09,080 Speaker 1: There was a situation that was manufactured in a New 353 00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:13,320 Speaker 1: York subway train where a person pretended to be drunk 354 00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:17,679 Speaker 1: or be an elderly person or distress or in distress 355 00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:22,040 Speaker 1: in some way would collapse, and then the researchers measured 356 00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:25,240 Speaker 1: and you know, took notes about how helpful people were, 357 00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:29,720 Speaker 1: not helpful people were. And this actually came about because 358 00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:33,800 Speaker 1: of you know about Kitty Geneviz. Is this the sexual assault. Yeah, 359 00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:37,520 Speaker 1: she was supposedly screamed, you know, bloody murder for half 360 00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:40,680 Speaker 1: an hour while being brutally raped and murdered and being 361 00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:45,240 Speaker 1: observed by people in the nearby apartment. Yeah, exactly, exactly, 362 00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:49,920 Speaker 1: and this was another example of you know, not informing 363 00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:53,119 Speaker 1: the public about what's being done, but it could yield 364 00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:57,440 Speaker 1: positive results. Great point here as well, This is while 365 00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:01,480 Speaker 1: we're traveling into the darkest nature of the human heart. 366 00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:06,159 Speaker 1: This can be applied very easily in your own life, folks, 367 00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:08,280 Speaker 1: although I hope you never have to use this trick. 368 00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:12,159 Speaker 1: You've probably heard this before. If you are in a 369 00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:16,760 Speaker 1: situation where you are being robbed, where you are being assaulted, 370 00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:20,320 Speaker 1: where someone is attempting to do violence towards you, and 371 00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:23,960 Speaker 1: you are in a public space, you will probably have 372 00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:28,560 Speaker 1: more success if you yell fire instead of help, because 373 00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:33,520 Speaker 1: people operate under self interest and they will perk up. 374 00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:35,720 Speaker 1: They may not feel like they are the person to 375 00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:37,959 Speaker 1: help you, but they certainly do feel like they are 376 00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:40,520 Speaker 1: a person who doesn't want to burn to death, which 377 00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:44,639 Speaker 1: is depressing but valuable. Human nature is as a bugger, 378 00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:47,520 Speaker 1: isn't there. Yeah, it's a real real piece of work. 379 00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:51,760 Speaker 1: But there's one more example right there is the infamous 380 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:55,880 Speaker 1: I guess Milgram experiments. Yes, this is an interesting one 381 00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:57,840 Speaker 1: in the in the source of a lot of like 382 00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:02,760 Speaker 1: potential kind of pop culture touchstones or this can be 383 00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:04,800 Speaker 1: used in I feel like I've seen a couple of 384 00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:07,919 Speaker 1: movies that kind of try to go to great lengths 385 00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:10,680 Speaker 1: to sort of take this to the most extreme conclusion 386 00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:14,000 Speaker 1: that could possibly go to. But the Milgram Experiment was 387 00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:20,280 Speaker 1: a series of psychological experiments done at Yale by Stanley Milgram, 388 00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:25,879 Speaker 1: and they basically measured how willing the participants were to 389 00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:30,920 Speaker 1: harm in some way their fellow man and woman, right, 390 00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:35,080 Speaker 1: and this happened. The experiments began in nineteen sixty one. 391 00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:38,600 Speaker 1: Interestingly enough, this was during the trial of Adolf Eichman, 392 00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:43,040 Speaker 1: and one of the things Milgram wanted to explore was 393 00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:46,679 Speaker 1: could it possibly be true that members of the Nazi 394 00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:50,800 Speaker 1: regime we're just following or just following orders right where they? 395 00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:54,800 Speaker 1: How do people respond when an authority figure asked them 396 00:24:54,920 --> 00:25:00,240 Speaker 1: or commands them to do an escalating series of tasks? So, well, 397 00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:03,400 Speaker 1: how about we set up the Milgram experiment. What's going 398 00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:05,439 Speaker 1: on in here? Yeah? Essentially, it was sort of an 399 00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:10,080 Speaker 1: interviewer interviewee situation, much like how you and I are 400 00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:12,800 Speaker 1: arranged right at this minute, only instead of us having 401 00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:16,520 Speaker 1: a nice chat about ridiculous history, I would have a 402 00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:20,160 Speaker 1: button that I could push when you answered a question 403 00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:25,560 Speaker 1: incorrectly that in my mind delivered a quite painful electric 404 00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:31,480 Speaker 1: shock to you exactly, and you would cry out in pain, 405 00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:35,080 Speaker 1: and I would hear a sound that was associated with 406 00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:39,360 Speaker 1: this electric shock being delivered. And you know, choose whether 407 00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:42,200 Speaker 1: or not to continue this behavior. But you, in this 408 00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:45,040 Speaker 1: case would not be choosing. Someone would be telling you 409 00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:47,280 Speaker 1: to do it, excuse me, But I would be choosing 410 00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:49,600 Speaker 1: whether or not to follow those orders or not. So 411 00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:52,000 Speaker 1: there is an element of choice there. But therein lies 412 00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:55,480 Speaker 1: the crux of the experiment. But the trick is, and 413 00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:58,639 Speaker 1: the joke is that you're not actually being shocked, are you, 414 00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:02,680 Speaker 1: ben No. This is the person in this situation who 415 00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:06,480 Speaker 1: appears to be being shocked is actually a colleague of 416 00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:10,479 Speaker 1: the person who is telling the participant to push the button. 417 00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:14,960 Speaker 1: So there's the experimenter, right, And then there's the role 418 00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:17,240 Speaker 1: you would be playing in this thought experiment, would be 419 00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:19,840 Speaker 1: what they would call the teacher. And that's why you 420 00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:24,640 Speaker 1: are rewarding or punishing right correct or in correct answers, 421 00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:28,919 Speaker 1: And the learner is also working with the experimenter. And 422 00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:30,880 Speaker 1: I have been assured that I will not be held 423 00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:36,440 Speaker 1: responsible for injuring this person. And yeah, yeah, and there 424 00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:40,080 Speaker 1: is no, there's no consequence to you other than the 425 00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:44,840 Speaker 1: expectation to perform as you are instructed. And the thing 426 00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:50,000 Speaker 1: about it is the voltage of the shocks will increase, right, 427 00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:54,120 Speaker 1: And they wanted to see how far they would go, 428 00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:59,200 Speaker 1: and there was a system of verbal prompts that could 429 00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:03,639 Speaker 1: be added, you know, like please continue. The experiment requires 430 00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:07,320 Speaker 1: that you continue, and one of the most important and 431 00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:09,919 Speaker 1: one of the most problematic, you have no other choice. 432 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:13,520 Speaker 1: You must go on because a lot of people in 433 00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:16,760 Speaker 1: that role, we're saying, hey, I think this is hurting 434 00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:20,640 Speaker 1: this person. You know, I think this is going too far. 435 00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:26,760 Speaker 1: And the knobs and the voltage, right, all the instruments 436 00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:29,840 Speaker 1: to control that. We're clearly displayed in such a way 437 00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:32,440 Speaker 1: that you could see it was becoming dangerous. Oh totally, 438 00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:35,240 Speaker 1: And like it's it's you know, if you know anything, 439 00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:37,320 Speaker 1: you know that this is a study. You know, you 440 00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:39,600 Speaker 1: know that you are being you're part of some sort 441 00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:43,560 Speaker 1: of experiment. So you're not like you know, in the military, 442 00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:46,400 Speaker 1: you're not. There's there's no the stakes are are not 443 00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:50,400 Speaker 1: high in that respect. So it is a great way 444 00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:53,880 Speaker 1: of measuring, you know, what kind of jerks people can 445 00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:56,320 Speaker 1: be when they're given a little taste of power, right right, 446 00:27:56,359 --> 00:27:59,560 Speaker 1: And here's the here's the spookiest, most disturbing part of 447 00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:03,720 Speaker 1: the mill experiment. They originally predicted bilgrim in Es team 448 00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:06,679 Speaker 1: originally predicted that by the time it escalated to a 449 00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:10,440 Speaker 1: three hundred volt shock when the victim refuses to answer, 450 00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:13,880 Speaker 1: they said less than four percent of the subjects would 451 00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:17,000 Speaker 1: still continue, and they thought maybe only a little over 452 00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:20,359 Speaker 1: one tenth of one percent would administer the highest shock 453 00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:23,840 Speaker 1: on the board, which was four hundred and fifty volts. However, 454 00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:28,520 Speaker 1: in their first set of experiments, twenty six of the 455 00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:32,800 Speaker 1: forty people playing that Rolenles role I like that rhyme 456 00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:36,919 Speaker 1: that works out to about sixty five percent of the 457 00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:40,880 Speaker 1: participants did go all the way to that four hundred 458 00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:50,520 Speaker 1: and fifty volt shock and they administered it. So obviously 459 00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:53,360 Speaker 1: this is a pretty controversial field even today and their 460 00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:59,040 Speaker 1: arguments for and against using deception in research. Author AJ 461 00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:03,920 Speaker 1: Kimmel in American Psychology, in a piece entitled in Defense 462 00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:08,200 Speaker 1: of Deception, said that using deception is the only way 463 00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:12,200 Speaker 1: that you can actually get certain kinds of real data, 464 00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:17,160 Speaker 1: real information, and if you totally outlaw deception in research, 465 00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:21,120 Speaker 1: it will quote have the egregious consequence of preventing researchers 466 00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:24,800 Speaker 1: from carrying out a wide range of important studies. Right, 467 00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:28,560 Speaker 1: And it's obviously a pretty delicate balancing act. But you know, overall, 468 00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:32,400 Speaker 1: informed consent is the law of the land today. And 469 00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:36,480 Speaker 1: to bring it closer to a full circle today, which 470 00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:39,880 Speaker 1: is always beautiful when we have this opportunity, you will 471 00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:42,520 Speaker 1: be happy to know that Mary Henley and Mary and 472 00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:48,000 Speaker 1: be Hubble did complete their study. No one was injured, 473 00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:52,400 Speaker 1: no one died being crushed by a bed, which is 474 00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:58,480 Speaker 1: a possibility, and they came up with some interesting conclusions 475 00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:04,840 Speaker 1: that sound pretty solid today. They were confirming an earlier 476 00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:08,320 Speaker 1: paper that argued the young child is essentially egocentric and 477 00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:12,800 Speaker 1: becomes gradually more and more socialized, as evidenced by language 478 00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:16,000 Speaker 1: use of language. So they were confirming this thing. And 479 00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:20,320 Speaker 1: they found that although we have a common starting point 480 00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:24,760 Speaker 1: in our species, you know, a trend toward egocentricity, as 481 00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:27,640 Speaker 1: we grow, as we mature, and as we meet more 482 00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:32,000 Speaker 1: people and become more socialized, we may still have those tendencies, 483 00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:36,440 Speaker 1: but we learn how to self correct. You know, the 484 00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:39,720 Speaker 1: planet is not full of billions of billions of people 485 00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:42,120 Speaker 1: running around going me, Me, Me. I mean I always 486 00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:45,840 Speaker 1: say it's self awareness is a really important trait in 487 00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:49,400 Speaker 1: anybody that's not a total piece of trash, you know 488 00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:51,000 Speaker 1: what I mean. I mean, I think if you can 489 00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:54,560 Speaker 1: see yourself, you may still behave in an egocentric manner, 490 00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:56,760 Speaker 1: but if you have the ability to kind of take 491 00:30:56,800 --> 00:30:58,520 Speaker 1: a step back and say, oh man, maybe that was 492 00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:01,600 Speaker 1: sort of not the best way to act, you can 493 00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:03,760 Speaker 1: learn from from that. And I think that's something that 494 00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:05,960 Speaker 1: you get over time in dealing with more people and 495 00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:08,680 Speaker 1: being around more people in different perspectives. But yeah, they 496 00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:13,280 Speaker 1: did determine that we don't actually fully shed that egocentric 497 00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:16,120 Speaker 1: view at all. We just, you know, figure out different 498 00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:18,520 Speaker 1: ways to frame it, I guess, yeah, and then and 499 00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:22,560 Speaker 1: then catch ourselves catching correct. So this is not just 500 00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:26,240 Speaker 1: an example of a funny thing that happened during a study. 501 00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:30,479 Speaker 1: We've also found that there are some crucial examples throughout history. 502 00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:32,640 Speaker 1: And I wanted to add one thing that you and 503 00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:34,800 Speaker 1: I hadn't talked about off air, but I want to 504 00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:40,040 Speaker 1: get your take on this. Sure does informed consent become 505 00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:43,680 Speaker 1: more important in twenty seventeen, I would argue that it does, 506 00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:49,760 Speaker 1: especially with the manipulation of individual participants on social media platforms. Facebook, 507 00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:55,440 Speaker 1: for instance, that man yeah, has done several experiments that 508 00:31:55,800 --> 00:32:01,800 Speaker 1: do clearly breach ethical guidelines for informed I think it 509 00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:06,239 Speaker 1: was in twenty fourteen they had it was discovered they 510 00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:10,960 Speaker 1: had manipulated almost a million users news feeds to see 511 00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:13,840 Speaker 1: if that would affect their emotions, so purposely giving them 512 00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:16,880 Speaker 1: news that was meant to make you sad, and then 513 00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:19,040 Speaker 1: purposely giving other people news it was meant to make 514 00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:21,920 Speaker 1: you happy. This was with the consent of Facebook or 515 00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:25,960 Speaker 1: with the assistants. Facebook did it. It wasn't for their 516 00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:28,560 Speaker 1: own Yes, I'd like to help their algorithms or something. 517 00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:33,720 Speaker 1: Oh yes, Facebook did it, and so I would say 518 00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:38,000 Speaker 1: big time not cool, right the James Grimmelman, Professor Law 519 00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:41,920 Speaker 1: at University of Maryland, said that Facebook did not give 520 00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:47,200 Speaker 1: its users informed consent under US Human Subjects Research law, 521 00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:50,200 Speaker 1: and he said the study harm participants. This is bad 522 00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:53,560 Speaker 1: even for Facebook. But I do feel like we have 523 00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:56,720 Speaker 1: to point out Facebook's defenders, who of course all worked 524 00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:59,840 Speaker 1: for Facebook. One of the researchers, a guy named Adam Kramer. 525 00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:02,680 Speaker 1: He said it was the research was carried out because 526 00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:05,600 Speaker 1: we care about the emotional impact of Facebook and the 527 00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:08,560 Speaker 1: people that use our products. We felt it was important 528 00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:12,320 Speaker 1: to investigate the common worry that seeing friends post positive 529 00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:16,800 Speaker 1: content leads to people fully negative or left out. So 530 00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:19,680 Speaker 1: they said, we did it because we were worried about you, 531 00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:23,920 Speaker 1: because we care about you. That's why we didn't tell you. 532 00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:27,640 Speaker 1: It's for your own good. And there's there's no arguing 533 00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:31,480 Speaker 1: that they probably did walk away with some really solid data, 534 00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:34,120 Speaker 1: of course, And that's you're totally right, because I mean, 535 00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:36,000 Speaker 1: there is kind of a version of the Henley and 536 00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:38,920 Speaker 1: Hubble study that you could do today that would kind 537 00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:44,680 Speaker 1: of fall under this informed consent rule where you could say, 538 00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:49,760 Speaker 1: you know, do it any more controlled and ethical environment. Right, 539 00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:52,760 Speaker 1: So all of this has to go through institutional review boards, 540 00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:58,520 Speaker 1: and there's a lot more focus paid on protecting participants. 541 00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:03,640 Speaker 1: You know, that might have scientists creeping around under beds 542 00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:07,840 Speaker 1: and the three back alleys. So for example, studying behavior 543 00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:12,560 Speaker 1: in a public space without getting informed consent from individuals, 544 00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:18,200 Speaker 1: but without actually revealing their identity and talking about it 545 00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:20,799 Speaker 1: more in terms of an aggregate. So like if you, 546 00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:26,160 Speaker 1: for example, wanted to study public behavior in a place 547 00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:29,960 Speaker 1: like Grand Central Station in New York, you could get 548 00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:32,320 Speaker 1: a lot of great information just about how, for example, 549 00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:35,160 Speaker 1: likely people were to you know, lend a hand to 550 00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:38,960 Speaker 1: their their fellow humans or not. You could do that 551 00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:44,760 Speaker 1: and get good information without describing the specifics of each case. 552 00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:47,239 Speaker 1: So you know there there is a way to do this. 553 00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:49,720 Speaker 1: But then with the Facebook stuff, man, that really throws 554 00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:53,560 Speaker 1: me for a loot because they know everything about you already, right, 555 00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:58,680 Speaker 1: and now they're now the ideas under the stated um 556 00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:04,520 Speaker 1: goal of caring about you. Facebook users you know, worried 557 00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:09,080 Speaker 1: about you. Under under that stated goal, they are they 558 00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:15,640 Speaker 1: have found ways to trigger emotional mechanisms, which becomes dangerous 559 00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:18,080 Speaker 1: and I don't want to be too preachy about it, 560 00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:22,040 Speaker 1: but we should admit that it is a real thing. 561 00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:26,160 Speaker 1: And honestly, no, if all this stuff is happening, I 562 00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:29,840 Speaker 1: start thinking, well, why shouldn't I be able to conduct 563 00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:34,920 Speaker 1: my own guerrilla social experiments? You know you do, Ben do? 564 00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:38,839 Speaker 1: Why should I stop? Then? Because it's it makes me uncomfortable. 565 00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:45,239 Speaker 1: So so you know, one of the things that I 566 00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:47,560 Speaker 1: did a lot in the past was I love traveling 567 00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:50,319 Speaker 1: to different cities and then just choosing a different name 568 00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:54,200 Speaker 1: and background and it never came back to bite me. 569 00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:58,080 Speaker 1: But I was I was told by some friends. I'm 570 00:35:58,080 --> 00:36:00,600 Speaker 1: not going to call it an intervention. Was told by 571 00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:03,239 Speaker 1: some friends that you know, one day it might come 572 00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:06,040 Speaker 1: back to bite me, pretending to be Chris from Boston 573 00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:08,680 Speaker 1: who's just in town for the weekend. It was at 574 00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:11,160 Speaker 1: the priest with the eyepatch. No, the priests with the 575 00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:17,080 Speaker 1: eye but come on, man, so yeah, there was a 576 00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:20,080 Speaker 1: priest with an eyepatch. But this brings this brings us 577 00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:23,600 Speaker 1: to an interesting question. Do you have any social experiments 578 00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:27,400 Speaker 1: that you have conducted or have you been the subject 579 00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:31,080 Speaker 1: of a social experiment? We'd like to know, and you 580 00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:34,840 Speaker 1: can tell us directly at our email address, which is 581 00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:39,040 Speaker 1: ridiculous at HowStuffWorks dot com. But wait, there's more. There 582 00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:41,640 Speaker 1: is a little bit more. We've got Facebook, We've got Instagram. 583 00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:44,319 Speaker 1: We're still working on the vision board. I've added some 584 00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:48,240 Speaker 1: glitter and some paste and some kind of like unicorn string. 585 00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:50,840 Speaker 1: Yes I made that up. That's not real, but it's 586 00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:53,680 Speaker 1: it's really shaping up and one day, one day, we're 587 00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:56,120 Speaker 1: going to get that out on Pinterest. But not today, 588 00:36:56,200 --> 00:37:01,719 Speaker 1: my friend, not today today we are going to conclude 589 00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:05,240 Speaker 1: our episode, but of course not our show. You can 590 00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:09,560 Speaker 1: catch Nolan I on some more ridiculous adventures through history 591 00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:15,239 Speaker 1: very soon, and we hope you will have a good one. Everyone. 592 00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:23,400 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 593 00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:25,600 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.