1 00:00:00,760 --> 00:00:03,280 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to Cool People Did Cool Stuff. I'm 2 00:00:03,320 --> 00:00:05,800 Speaker 1: your host, Margaret Kiljoy, and every week I talk about 3 00:00:06,120 --> 00:00:09,920 Speaker 1: various rebels in history, and sometimes I have to spend 4 00:00:09,920 --> 00:00:13,200 Speaker 1: the entire first episode telling you about absolutely terrible things, 5 00:00:14,320 --> 00:00:18,880 Speaker 1: like this week, which my guest is Sarah Marshall, who's 6 00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:21,200 Speaker 1: not is on the cool People, not the terrible things 7 00:00:21,640 --> 00:00:22,120 Speaker 1: side of it. 8 00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:27,320 Speaker 2: Hi say hello, I'm so happy to be here feeling 9 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:31,080 Speaker 2: deeply distressed my favorite show to feel deeply distressed on. 10 00:00:32,720 --> 00:00:34,320 Speaker 1: I feel like usually I get to be the like 11 00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:38,600 Speaker 1: fun show. It's just a it's a week. It's it's 12 00:00:38,600 --> 00:00:41,040 Speaker 1: a week, that's all. I'm so happy to be here. 13 00:00:40,880 --> 00:00:45,560 Speaker 2: For your you know you're extremely unfun week. I I'm 14 00:00:46,560 --> 00:00:49,720 Speaker 2: I would imagine that perhaps my reputation precedes me as 15 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:56,960 Speaker 2: miss unfun topic, and I'm so happy that that's maybe. 16 00:00:57,280 --> 00:00:58,640 Speaker 1: Our producer is Sophie. 17 00:00:58,720 --> 00:01:03,280 Speaker 3: Hi, Sophie, Hi Meg Hi, Hi Sarah, Hi, Sophie. 18 00:01:03,280 --> 00:01:05,039 Speaker 2: I'm so happy to be in your presence. 19 00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:08,480 Speaker 3: I know it's so nice. 20 00:01:08,720 --> 00:01:12,240 Speaker 2: We couldn't have dinner tonight and so but instead we're zooming. 21 00:01:12,520 --> 00:01:14,000 Speaker 3: I know it was I was like, I was like, 22 00:01:14,040 --> 00:01:15,840 Speaker 3: I still kind of get to see you today. 23 00:01:17,240 --> 00:01:20,640 Speaker 1: We're having. We're snacking in a dinner. I ruined their 24 00:01:20,680 --> 00:01:23,000 Speaker 1: dinner plans. No, you're telling me you did not. 25 00:01:23,560 --> 00:01:25,720 Speaker 3: You did not ruin our dinner plans. This is your 26 00:01:25,800 --> 00:01:30,640 Speaker 3: your innocent okay, but yeah, in a way, are we 27 00:01:30,720 --> 00:01:32,040 Speaker 3: not having dinner right now? 28 00:01:32,840 --> 00:01:37,240 Speaker 2: We're so having dinner market a beautiful sunlight sugar. 29 00:01:37,959 --> 00:01:42,400 Speaker 3: Margaret is filling us up with knowledge. 30 00:01:42,600 --> 00:01:47,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, and the person who's editing the knowledge together and 31 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:50,080 Speaker 1: changing my words around. And if I ever sound like 32 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:55,800 Speaker 1: I'm stumbling or lost in thought, it's actually Ian maliciously 33 00:01:56,200 --> 00:02:05,000 Speaker 1: editing to make what sound broken Hien and our music was, Oh, 34 00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:07,960 Speaker 1: hi Ian. We can't go forward to everyone say Hien, 35 00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:15,239 Speaker 1: hi Ian. Thanks love that. I like hearing from listeners 36 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:18,120 Speaker 1: who told me that their office looks at them funny 37 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:21,320 Speaker 1: whenever they say Hi Ian, Because listeners, you're not off 38 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:23,120 Speaker 1: the hook either. Yeah, you got it. 39 00:02:23,160 --> 00:02:25,200 Speaker 2: If you don't say Hiian, then note we'll just sit 40 00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:28,680 Speaker 2: here silently. Yeah, and the rest of your life might 41 00:02:28,760 --> 00:02:32,440 Speaker 2: even be fun. Yeah, that's true. It could be like 42 00:02:32,480 --> 00:02:33,320 Speaker 2: a silent retreat. 43 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:34,160 Speaker 3: Man. 44 00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:36,840 Speaker 1: That's the real money, Sophie. Can I do a podcast 45 00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:41,480 Speaker 1: that's just a silent meditation where sure, I don't do anything. 46 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:45,200 Speaker 1: I would use it. I would listen to it. Cool. 47 00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:48,880 Speaker 1: Our theme music for this show, not The Silent Retreat, 48 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:53,480 Speaker 1: but possibly the Silent Retreat too, is by Unwoman. And 49 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:55,560 Speaker 1: this is part two of a two parter where we 50 00:02:55,600 --> 00:02:58,760 Speaker 1: are talking about the survivors and the escapees and the 51 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:02,920 Speaker 1: people fighting against the Magdalen Laundries in Ireland and against 52 00:03:02,919 --> 00:03:08,800 Speaker 1: the theocracy in Ireland more generally. And it's not going 53 00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:10,960 Speaker 1: to make any sense if you don't go back and 54 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:17,960 Speaker 1: listen to part one. So oh, we'll wait, okay, and 55 00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:25,480 Speaker 1: you're back. Yay. So back to the laundries. Women and 56 00:03:25,520 --> 00:03:27,959 Speaker 1: girls were getting sent to the laundries of that formal sentencing. 57 00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:30,600 Speaker 1: The stories of how people ended up there, each one 58 00:03:30,639 --> 00:03:33,760 Speaker 1: is heartbreaking. Survivors of sexual abuse, starving girls stealing a 59 00:03:33,760 --> 00:03:36,880 Speaker 1: loaf of bread, girls who were seen as promiscuous, literally 60 00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:40,120 Speaker 1: just because old men were attracted to them. You could 61 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:44,400 Speaker 1: straight up go to jail for being too pretty, which 62 00:03:44,440 --> 00:03:46,119 Speaker 1: I'm just going to say, I'm glad they stopped before 63 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:46,800 Speaker 1: I came around. 64 00:03:48,280 --> 00:03:49,800 Speaker 2: I know you really and it was like it was 65 00:03:50,080 --> 00:03:52,520 Speaker 2: it was really close, right they changed that line right 66 00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:53,440 Speaker 2: before you were born. 67 00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:58,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, I guess I was fourteen when they ended. Yeah, 68 00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:03,720 Speaker 1: I don't live in Ireland because of but the the. 69 00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:06,760 Speaker 3: Lore of your beauty was just it was too much. 70 00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:13,800 Speaker 1: For them, I know, I know. So obviously they're practicing 71 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:18,480 Speaker 1: as Jesus taught, which is, if you see someone who's attractive, 72 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:21,960 Speaker 1: instead of plucking out your own eye, you should destroy 73 00:04:22,040 --> 00:04:23,160 Speaker 1: the life of that child. 74 00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:27,320 Speaker 2: Jesus did say that. Yeah, remember when Jesus was like, 75 00:04:27,520 --> 00:04:30,680 Speaker 2: look at the lilies of the field, do they have jobs? 76 00:04:30,839 --> 00:04:34,120 Speaker 2: And that hot girl put her in jail. Yeah, exactly. 77 00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:39,120 Speaker 1: Girls with disabilities mental and physical, who couldn't live independently 78 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:41,960 Speaker 1: were sent there as well. And of course some of 79 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:46,080 Speaker 1: the unadopted children were sent there, which gets into the 80 00:04:46,200 --> 00:04:48,960 Speaker 1: like there's like all these reports where the church is like, oh, 81 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:51,160 Speaker 1: and there was no racism as part of any of it. 82 00:04:51,240 --> 00:04:55,360 Speaker 1: And then like some people were like, how come white 83 00:04:55,680 --> 00:04:58,120 Speaker 1: children had a close to one hundred percent adoption rate 84 00:04:58,160 --> 00:05:00,520 Speaker 1: but mixed race children who were born in the laundries 85 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:04,520 Speaker 1: had a forty eight percent adoption rate and a fifty 86 00:05:04,560 --> 00:05:10,040 Speaker 1: two murder rate. Yeah, I don't even know. About twenty 87 00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:12,960 Speaker 1: six percent of all inmates at the Magdalen Laundries in 88 00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:18,320 Speaker 1: Ireland were referred there by the state itself. And the 89 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:21,680 Speaker 1: funny thing is the girls and women were told they 90 00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:26,840 Speaker 1: were free. This was not a formal sentence. You weren't 91 00:05:26,839 --> 00:05:30,080 Speaker 1: allowed to leave, and if you run away, the police 92 00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:35,760 Speaker 1: will bring you back. But you're free and free of 93 00:05:35,800 --> 00:05:42,240 Speaker 1: what parabends. And so if once you got out, you 94 00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:46,840 Speaker 1: had to flee the country, but it wasn't illegal, you're friend. 95 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:49,479 Speaker 2: Like Steve McQueen is freeing the Great Escape. You just 96 00:05:49,520 --> 00:05:53,480 Speaker 2: gotta leap your motorcycle over the border and you're good 97 00:05:53,480 --> 00:05:53,880 Speaker 2: to go. 98 00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:58,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, but not the border to northern Ireland because 99 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:04,159 Speaker 1: he got to get the soup pot and paddle fast. Yeah. 100 00:06:05,279 --> 00:06:11,040 Speaker 1: Most kids were released the you could be released if 101 00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:15,560 Speaker 1: someone came claiming responsibility for you, but people without families 102 00:06:15,760 --> 00:06:19,600 Speaker 1: were more often stuck. Most girls spent about a year 103 00:06:19,720 --> 00:06:21,880 Speaker 1: or two in confinement. I don't think that's the average. 104 00:06:21,880 --> 00:06:25,719 Speaker 1: I think that's the median m h. Because the average 105 00:06:25,760 --> 00:06:28,920 Speaker 1: would get fucked by all the people who were there 106 00:06:28,960 --> 00:06:32,080 Speaker 1: for sixty years or whatever. And these institutions are secret 107 00:06:32,120 --> 00:06:35,080 Speaker 1: of as fuck. Is very hard to get actual information, 108 00:06:35,120 --> 00:06:38,000 Speaker 1: although the Irish government did do a very in depth 109 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:42,760 Speaker 1: investigation in the past ten years. There's only one at 110 00:06:42,760 --> 00:06:46,520 Speaker 1: the time report about what people saw in there. Besides 111 00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:49,960 Speaker 1: like that, I was able to find at least Halliday 112 00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:52,760 Speaker 1: Sutherland wrote about them in the nineteen fifties. And he 113 00:06:52,839 --> 00:06:54,960 Speaker 1: is an interesting guy. I'm not going to quite put 114 00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:58,440 Speaker 1: him into the like hall of cool people did cool stuff, 115 00:06:58,440 --> 00:07:02,080 Speaker 1: but I'm not going to not. And he's okay, So 116 00:07:02,880 --> 00:07:06,080 Speaker 1: he's interesting here. He was interesting now he's dead. He 117 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:08,719 Speaker 1: was a Scottish Man who converted to Catholicism, and he 118 00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:11,280 Speaker 1: spent his whole life doing the single best thing a 119 00:07:11,360 --> 00:07:16,360 Speaker 1: cool person on this show can do. He fought tuberculosis. 120 00:07:19,920 --> 00:07:22,080 Speaker 2: Really pandering to you, I might add. 121 00:07:22,040 --> 00:07:27,600 Speaker 1: I know, I know. He founded a tuberculosis clinic in 122 00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:31,520 Speaker 1: nineteen eleven, and he produced the first British public health film, 123 00:07:31,760 --> 00:07:36,000 Speaker 1: which was about I think tuberculosis. He fought in World 124 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:37,720 Speaker 1: War One and then he came back and he wrote 125 00:07:37,760 --> 00:07:41,679 Speaker 1: a ton of books, mostly about tuberculosis, except he also 126 00:07:41,760 --> 00:07:47,280 Speaker 1: wrote a couple of books against birth control. But it 127 00:07:47,320 --> 00:07:51,720 Speaker 1: gets weirder, right, it always does. We've covered birth control 128 00:07:51,720 --> 00:07:53,120 Speaker 1: a bunch of times in the show, and like, look 129 00:07:53,200 --> 00:07:54,920 Speaker 1: at all these amazing people. They were a little bit 130 00:07:54,920 --> 00:07:57,000 Speaker 1: eugenesis too. That was really weird and mixed up. In 131 00:07:57,000 --> 00:08:02,440 Speaker 1: the early twentieth century, he his books as being anti 132 00:08:02,480 --> 00:08:06,280 Speaker 1: eugenics books, and specifically they would have titles with like 133 00:08:06,800 --> 00:08:11,920 Speaker 1: against Neo Malthusianism. He wrote that overpopulation isn't the problem. 134 00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:16,600 Speaker 1: He explicitly named industrial capitalism as the problem. It as 135 00:08:16,640 --> 00:08:19,480 Speaker 1: the ideology that profits from eugenics and a belief in 136 00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:23,280 Speaker 1: scarcity rather than abundance. So many of the heroes of 137 00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:24,600 Speaker 1: the show have been on the other side of this 138 00:08:24,640 --> 00:08:28,480 Speaker 1: coin since early feminism and birth control advocates often fell 139 00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:32,160 Speaker 1: for eugenics, but also he fought against birth control. That 140 00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:36,640 Speaker 1: sucks and politics are so fucking messy and no one 141 00:08:36,679 --> 00:08:39,480 Speaker 1: wants to acknowledge it. And that's like the funniest most 142 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:42,360 Speaker 1: interesting shit about reading. People can't see my wide eyed 143 00:08:42,360 --> 00:08:44,400 Speaker 1: face as I talk about this, but like, this is 144 00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:46,120 Speaker 1: a shit that I like call my friends and I'm like, 145 00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:48,800 Speaker 1: oh my god, I found the opposite side of the 146 00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:54,640 Speaker 1: people I'm usually writing about. Eugenicists were claiming that tuberculosis 147 00:08:54,679 --> 00:08:59,920 Speaker 1: was hereditary. So by stopping tuberculodes people there's a word, 148 00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:04,240 Speaker 1: I don't know, by stopping those people from having kids, 149 00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:05,600 Speaker 1: we can get rid of the disease. 150 00:09:06,440 --> 00:09:10,120 Speaker 2: Oh what a great plan. There was also a guy 151 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:12,760 Speaker 2: I always think of this. I'm pretty sure there was 152 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:15,800 Speaker 2: a guy who during the age of alchemy, was like, 153 00:09:15,920 --> 00:09:20,240 Speaker 2: you know, when you think about it, urine is kind 154 00:09:20,280 --> 00:09:21,640 Speaker 2: of the same color as gold. 155 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:22,640 Speaker 1: So what if. 156 00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:28,440 Speaker 2: What if gold is his some form of urine? And 157 00:09:28,480 --> 00:09:31,679 Speaker 2: so he like collected so much urine and just like 158 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:35,920 Speaker 2: let it sit forever to evaporate. And I forget the details, 159 00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:40,320 Speaker 2: but he basically accidentally invented the material used to create 160 00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:44,160 Speaker 2: matches because it turned out extremely dehydrated urine is also 161 00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:47,440 Speaker 2: very flammable for reasons I forget. Because I read about 162 00:09:47,440 --> 00:09:48,319 Speaker 2: this fifteen years ago. 163 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:49,000 Speaker 1: I wonder if there was. 164 00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:51,480 Speaker 2: Like that's science at the time, You're like, what if 165 00:09:51,640 --> 00:09:55,319 Speaker 2: this what You're like, I had an idea, let's try it. 166 00:09:55,320 --> 00:09:56,760 Speaker 1: It's like people approach. 167 00:09:56,480 --> 00:09:58,319 Speaker 2: Science like they were writing a poem. 168 00:09:58,720 --> 00:10:02,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, totally. But Sutherland had a different idea about what 169 00:10:03,120 --> 00:10:08,000 Speaker 1: caused tuberculosis, a wild idea that left him out. His 170 00:10:08,120 --> 00:10:10,240 Speaker 1: idea was that tuberculosis was an infection. 171 00:10:11,640 --> 00:10:14,800 Speaker 2: What No, don't be silly. 172 00:10:14,960 --> 00:10:18,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's not the point here. It just gives you 173 00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:20,120 Speaker 1: a sense of who he is. He's a Catholic doctor 174 00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:22,800 Speaker 1: who hates capitalism but also hates a woman's right to choose. 175 00:10:23,520 --> 00:10:25,440 Speaker 1: He is also the only writer who has ever allowed 176 00:10:25,480 --> 00:10:28,960 Speaker 1: to observe conditions in the Irish laundry that I believe, 177 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:31,880 Speaker 1: specifically that in Galway, which is the centerpiece of a 178 00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:34,880 Speaker 1: bunch of it, was the centerpiece of the Twam story. 179 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:38,520 Speaker 1: Galway has a lot of the stories. Also, a lot 180 00:10:38,520 --> 00:10:40,040 Speaker 1: of people broke out of the Galway one, and we'll 181 00:10:40,080 --> 00:10:41,440 Speaker 1: get to that. That's my favorite part of all this. 182 00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:45,640 Speaker 1: So he visited the mother and Baby home at Twam 183 00:10:45,760 --> 00:10:47,959 Speaker 1: where all those infants were dying, and he visited the 184 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:51,679 Speaker 1: Galway Magdalen Laundry in nineteen fifty five. He had to 185 00:10:51,679 --> 00:10:54,680 Speaker 1: get permission from the local bishop, and he had to 186 00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:57,720 Speaker 1: agree to let the Mother Superior censor his report in 187 00:10:57,840 --> 00:10:59,959 Speaker 1: order to be allowed in because they weren't letting journals. 188 00:11:00,679 --> 00:11:02,520 Speaker 1: But the fact that he's like a good Catholic and 189 00:11:02,559 --> 00:11:05,080 Speaker 1: a well known writer, and they're like, uh, maybe, but 190 00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:09,280 Speaker 1: we get to censor it. In twenty thirteen, some people 191 00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:12,480 Speaker 1: stumbled upon an unedited version of his manuscript and a 192 00:11:12,520 --> 00:11:16,000 Speaker 1: basement in a suitcase, and so we get to know 193 00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:22,280 Speaker 1: his uncensored thoughts eventually, but even in his censored report, 194 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:25,240 Speaker 1: he was clear about the condemnation of Catholic theocracy in Ireland. 195 00:11:25,559 --> 00:11:27,520 Speaker 1: This is a quote from the introduction to the nineteen 196 00:11:27,559 --> 00:11:30,400 Speaker 1: fifty eight American edition, where he felt like he could 197 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:33,080 Speaker 1: be a little bit more free in what he said. 198 00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:37,240 Speaker 1: In my opinion, the Irish secular clergy have too much 199 00:11:37,280 --> 00:11:40,400 Speaker 1: political power. They hold themselves aloof from their people, and 200 00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:42,960 Speaker 1: are too fond of money. In the bad old days, 201 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:45,480 Speaker 1: when Ireland was subject to the foreign power of England, 202 00:11:45,760 --> 00:11:48,480 Speaker 1: the parish priest was probably the only educated man in 203 00:11:48,520 --> 00:11:51,840 Speaker 1: the Irish village. The foreign power has been driven out, 204 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:54,800 Speaker 1: the people are bed or educated, but the parish priest 205 00:11:54,960 --> 00:11:59,440 Speaker 1: is loath to relinquish his political power. And so some 206 00:11:59,520 --> 00:12:01,120 Speaker 1: of the things that I learned from his report on 207 00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:04,360 Speaker 1: the Magdalen schools, and awful lot of the girls who 208 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:06,600 Speaker 1: get out go immediately to England to get a fuck 209 00:12:06,640 --> 00:12:10,760 Speaker 1: away from the theocracy that imprisoned them. Seventy percent of 210 00:12:10,800 --> 00:12:13,720 Speaker 1: the girls in the Galway laundry were unwhen mothers. The 211 00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:16,120 Speaker 1: others were mostly children who had grown up in industrial 212 00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:20,200 Speaker 1: schools that the stolen kids attended, And so some people 213 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:23,240 Speaker 1: were born lived and died as slaves to the Catholic 214 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:26,840 Speaker 1: Church doing laundry. Those who stay for life were called 215 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:32,679 Speaker 1: consecrated penitents. And while I'm at it as an aside, 216 00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:36,439 Speaker 1: where all the priests and nuns are coming from themselves, 217 00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:40,800 Speaker 1: not really always volunteers. At that point in Irish history, 218 00:12:40,840 --> 00:12:43,280 Speaker 1: your family wasn't respectable unless one of your kids became 219 00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:47,360 Speaker 1: a nun or a priest. So a lot of these 220 00:12:47,480 --> 00:12:51,400 Speaker 1: nuns and priests. One of the reasons are so shitty 221 00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:54,120 Speaker 1: and bitter is that they're bitter about the life of 222 00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:56,400 Speaker 1: celibacy that got forced upon them and like the life 223 00:12:57,120 --> 00:13:02,679 Speaker 1: of whatever. Anyway, back to Halliday. One of the censored 224 00:13:02,720 --> 00:13:06,560 Speaker 1: lines includes from a conversation with the Mother Superior. He asks, 225 00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:09,880 Speaker 1: do the girls try to escape? She answers, last year 226 00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:13,079 Speaker 1: a girl climbed a twenty foot drain pipe at the top, 227 00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:15,800 Speaker 1: she lost her nerve and fell. She was fortunate she 228 00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:20,079 Speaker 1: only broke her pelvis. She won't try it again. Oh God, 229 00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:22,280 Speaker 1: And this is after like the Mother Superior is like, 230 00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:26,360 Speaker 1: I mean, they're free, they just can't leave, right. All 231 00:13:26,400 --> 00:13:28,240 Speaker 1: of the women and girls told them that they were 232 00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:31,120 Speaker 1: happy there. They knew that the Mother Superior was going 233 00:13:31,160 --> 00:13:33,680 Speaker 1: to read it, and some wouldn't look him in the 234 00:13:33,679 --> 00:13:37,320 Speaker 1: face when they were like, oh, yeah, I'm totally happy. 235 00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:42,600 Speaker 1: This is the life I always dreamed of. But there's 236 00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:46,880 Speaker 1: an interesting side to the girls dejer free but de 237 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:51,600 Speaker 1: facto imprisoned. It wasn't actually illegal to rescue the girls 238 00:13:51,640 --> 00:13:55,800 Speaker 1: who were called Maggie's, which like all the best women 239 00:13:56,840 --> 00:13:57,680 Speaker 1: were called Maggies. 240 00:13:59,280 --> 00:13:59,439 Speaker 3: Rue. 241 00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:01,680 Speaker 1: Yes, this is this is known. 242 00:14:01,920 --> 00:14:02,520 Speaker 2: It is known. 243 00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:06,679 Speaker 1: Yeah, even though cops would try to stop you, it was. 244 00:14:06,800 --> 00:14:10,880 Speaker 1: There was no actual crime to break Maggie's out. 245 00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:13,960 Speaker 2: Right, because what would the lobby like, you cannot spring 246 00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:20,040 Speaker 2: imprisoned youths from their illegal nun prison, right. So this 247 00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:22,840 Speaker 2: now we get to enter some of our best heroes 248 00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:25,800 Speaker 2: of the week, the like no holds barred. I just 249 00:14:25,840 --> 00:14:29,760 Speaker 2: fucking love these people. The mckintee family of Galway City. 250 00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:35,120 Speaker 2: Ina McKinty was a free and married woman with three sons. 251 00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:37,920 Speaker 2: In nineteen sixty three, she took a job at the 252 00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:40,440 Speaker 2: Galway laundry. Like she wasn't an inmate. She just like 253 00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:43,280 Speaker 2: worked there and got like paid, you know, And she 254 00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:45,560 Speaker 2: told her family about the conditions there, like at dinner. 255 00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:47,280 Speaker 2: She'd come home and be like Oh, that's kind of 256 00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:51,600 Speaker 2: kind of fucked up, you know. So she had three 257 00:14:51,640 --> 00:14:56,040 Speaker 2: preteen boys. They range from like ten to thirteen. Her 258 00:14:56,040 --> 00:15:01,160 Speaker 2: preteen children hatched a scheme and they the three boys 259 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:03,160 Speaker 2: worked out all of the details about how they were 260 00:15:03,160 --> 00:15:05,520 Speaker 2: going to do it and presented their plan to their parents. 261 00:15:06,280 --> 00:15:08,880 Speaker 2: And their parents looked at their kids, listened to their 262 00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:11,160 Speaker 2: plan and were like, yeah, fuck it. 263 00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:16,880 Speaker 1: Let's do it. What was their plan? It's so good. 264 00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:20,240 Speaker 1: And also it's worth pointing out no one knows that 265 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:23,280 Speaker 1: it's not illegal to break these people out of prison, 266 00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:25,160 Speaker 1: Like this is a plan that people that when the 267 00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:27,840 Speaker 1: people are doing this, they're like, we go to prison 268 00:15:27,880 --> 00:15:30,000 Speaker 1: for this. They think that they are breaking someone out 269 00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:33,120 Speaker 1: of prison. You got to listen to the boys. Yeah, 270 00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:36,160 Speaker 1: So one day Ina stays late at work. She has 271 00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:38,840 Speaker 1: the keys to the place, right because she's a free worker, 272 00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:41,800 Speaker 1: and so she opens the back door and lets four 273 00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:45,040 Speaker 1: girls out. Two of her sons, the two older boys, 274 00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:46,880 Speaker 1: take the girls by the hand and just like run 275 00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:51,040 Speaker 1: for their fucking lives. They run past the church, terrified 276 00:15:51,040 --> 00:15:54,080 Speaker 1: that they'll be seen. Dad is down the block, parked 277 00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:56,600 Speaker 1: in the van he borrowed from his job with only 278 00:15:56,720 --> 00:15:58,920 Speaker 1: with the youngest son poised to open the door. As 279 00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:01,760 Speaker 1: soon as the OWD show up, they all jump into 280 00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:04,400 Speaker 1: the van. They like peel off the four girls and 281 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:06,920 Speaker 1: the three boys. They have to drive right in front 282 00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:09,280 Speaker 1: of the laundry in order to get back home. They 283 00:16:09,280 --> 00:16:11,160 Speaker 1: make it back to their house, they all pile into 284 00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:13,040 Speaker 1: the one bedroom right because all of the kids share 285 00:16:13,040 --> 00:16:15,120 Speaker 1: one bedroom in this house, and so now there's like 286 00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:18,480 Speaker 1: seven kids in the bedroom and they just start laughing. 287 00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:22,920 Speaker 1: They're just like, holy shit, we did it, you know. 288 00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:28,280 Speaker 1: And I rarely try to be like okay. I recommend 289 00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:30,320 Speaker 1: you can listen to one of the suns give a 290 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:33,400 Speaker 1: first hand account on the podcast Criminal, and I highly 291 00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:36,960 Speaker 1: recommend listening to him talk about this. They thought that 292 00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:39,560 Speaker 1: the sky was going to fall right, that the long 293 00:16:39,680 --> 00:16:41,760 Speaker 1: arm of the law is going to come down. Ino 294 00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:46,480 Speaker 1: went to work the next day, nothing no word about 295 00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:51,280 Speaker 1: the four girls going missing. So Dad starts working on financing. 296 00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:53,920 Speaker 1: The family is poor as shit, but they scrounged up 297 00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:56,400 Speaker 1: benefactors enough to get the four girls on a boat 298 00:16:56,440 --> 00:17:01,240 Speaker 1: to England. And I think there's like this subt I 299 00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:07,280 Speaker 1: think the people of Galway regularly help escaped laundresses or 300 00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:10,959 Speaker 1: help escape maggies get to England and like pull together, 301 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:14,600 Speaker 1: and so they scrounge up enough money and they get 302 00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:16,840 Speaker 1: the four girls sent out, and then they're like, well, 303 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:23,399 Speaker 1: that went really well. We should do it again. So 304 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:25,800 Speaker 1: they did it again, and then they did it a 305 00:17:25,840 --> 00:17:28,720 Speaker 1: third time, and then they did it a fourth time, 306 00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:35,520 Speaker 1: the exact same plan, four different times. Fifteen girls. Yeah, 307 00:17:35,920 --> 00:17:41,520 Speaker 1: finally the laundry figured out what happens, so they sent 308 00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:44,840 Speaker 1: Ina mcintry a certified letter with her wages and notice 309 00:17:44,840 --> 00:17:50,800 Speaker 1: of termination. Oh no, and like and it's not like nothing, right, 310 00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:53,000 Speaker 1: it's like a family that's pouring enough that the mom 311 00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:56,919 Speaker 1: has to work, and we thought we were going to prison, 312 00:17:58,240 --> 00:17:59,160 Speaker 1: right yeah. 313 00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:02,080 Speaker 2: And yeah, I love that there's so little they can do. 314 00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:06,119 Speaker 1: Yeah, And so they like went and like apparently like 315 00:18:06,119 --> 00:18:07,640 Speaker 1: guinness had just hit the scene, and they like went 316 00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:09,520 Speaker 1: and got a Guinness and cracked open a Guinness and 317 00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:12,399 Speaker 1: it was like so carbonated that the beer hit the ceiling. 318 00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:13,080 Speaker 2: And then the like. 319 00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:19,639 Speaker 1: And and as more girls would escape, so they couldn't 320 00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:23,000 Speaker 1: keep doing that anymore, right, But as more girls would escape, 321 00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:24,880 Speaker 1: they'd show up at the Mick and Try House where 322 00:18:24,880 --> 00:18:30,720 Speaker 1: they were whisked away to freedom, posthumously, Ino was granted 323 00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:33,080 Speaker 1: freedom of the City of Galway, basically like the keys 324 00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:35,399 Speaker 1: of the city. They're like, hey, you're a hero, and 325 00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:37,640 Speaker 1: her son says it's the proudest day of his life, 326 00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:40,080 Speaker 1: second only to the days where his kids were born. 327 00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:41,880 Speaker 3: Mm hmm. 328 00:18:42,320 --> 00:18:45,239 Speaker 1: There's a plaque in Galway in honor of Ena and 329 00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:47,840 Speaker 1: of a local playwright who wrote a play exposing the 330 00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:48,800 Speaker 1: horrors of the laundry. 331 00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:53,719 Speaker 2: I feel like so many stories the heroic figure is 332 00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:59,160 Speaker 2: like Area Mom. Yeah, totally, especially like Marey of Love 333 00:18:59,200 --> 00:18:59,880 Speaker 2: Canal to. 334 00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:03,679 Speaker 1: Wait, I don't I Love Canal is Love Canal. 335 00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:07,840 Speaker 2: It is the first super fund site, and super fun 336 00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:10,720 Speaker 2: sites were created as a concept, and like cleaning up 337 00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:15,680 Speaker 2: after you know, massive pollution was created as a concept 338 00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:19,919 Speaker 2: because an Area mom was like, hey, my kids go 339 00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:23,879 Speaker 2: to that school, and just like hell, yeah, you know 340 00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:29,959 Speaker 2: Area Mom. Yeah, the unsung hero of history. And one 341 00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:32,199 Speaker 2: of the themes I keep returning to is how hard I 342 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:35,320 Speaker 2: have to work to find women in history. Not this episode, 343 00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:38,040 Speaker 2: almost everyone involved in the story, both good and bad, 344 00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:41,960 Speaker 2: girls of them. But yeah, we can't steal credit from 345 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:44,359 Speaker 2: women for doing horrible things as well. 346 00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:48,119 Speaker 1: Yeah, but if you're a woman and you've had credits 347 00:19:48,119 --> 00:19:54,000 Speaker 1: stolen from you. I recommend a mace. You can't go wrong. 348 00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:58,840 Speaker 1: They come in all different types. I personally have a 349 00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:02,400 Speaker 1: fondness for the Gothic mace, which is flanged. It's particularly 350 00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:06,560 Speaker 1: useful for bashing in armor. If you're facing an armored opponent, 351 00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:12,480 Speaker 1: a mace might be a very good tool. And that's 352 00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:24,320 Speaker 1: the only ad. And we're back. So most of the 353 00:20:24,359 --> 00:20:29,520 Speaker 1: girls and women who escape these places, they do it themselves. 354 00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:32,680 Speaker 1: Dinah Crowen was sent to a laundry at eight years 355 00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:36,840 Speaker 1: old by foster parents. She's possibly the youngest Magdalene. Although 356 00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:39,720 Speaker 1: every time I read something it's like the youngest or 357 00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:43,280 Speaker 1: the first, or any support superlative. I'm always like, I'm 358 00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:47,199 Speaker 1: going to find another one who's younger. But whatever, she 359 00:20:47,280 --> 00:20:50,920 Speaker 1: was sent at eight years old. She worked there barely fed. 360 00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:55,360 Speaker 1: They got two meals a day. She woke up, went 361 00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:57,920 Speaker 1: to mass, went to work doing laundry for the city government. 362 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:02,639 Speaker 1: No breaks, none's a company. You the toilet, then evening prayer, 363 00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:06,719 Speaker 1: then clean the dormitory, then sleep. She was left handed, 364 00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:09,240 Speaker 1: and God knows you should never be left hand in 365 00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:13,480 Speaker 1: front of a nun. They forced her to work right 366 00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:17,000 Speaker 1: handed and beat her constantly for not perfectly folding laundry 367 00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:20,560 Speaker 1: that she was folding with her non dominant hand. No 368 00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:23,639 Speaker 1: one was allowed to talk to each other. The girls 369 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:26,879 Speaker 1: were encouraged to snitch each other out constantly, and they 370 00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:30,840 Speaker 1: were fed two meals a day. When she was twelve 371 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:34,240 Speaker 1: or thirteen, she had like the only person she talked 372 00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:36,520 Speaker 1: to really was the girl in the bed next to her. 373 00:21:37,119 --> 00:21:39,960 Speaker 1: I believe it's two physical beds that are apart, and 374 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:42,040 Speaker 1: they whisper late at night, and they come up with plants. 375 00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:44,480 Speaker 1: And she never learns this girl's name, but they break 376 00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:48,480 Speaker 1: out together. These two were the two who took the 377 00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:51,439 Speaker 1: laundry out to the van. So they took the laundry 378 00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:54,919 Speaker 1: out to the van, got in the van. I believe. 379 00:21:55,119 --> 00:21:57,680 Speaker 1: I think they probably hid in the laundry baskets because 380 00:21:57,680 --> 00:21:59,199 Speaker 1: I kept reading this is like one of the main 381 00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:01,400 Speaker 1: ways that girls were break out, as in the laundry baskets. 382 00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:03,560 Speaker 1: But I watched this woman tell her story, and she 383 00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:06,399 Speaker 1: didn't give the details. But that's my guess. I always 384 00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:11,480 Speaker 1: one of the details of prison breaks. Oh someday, yeah, exactly. 385 00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:18,920 Speaker 1: So her and her accomplice split up and she never 386 00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:21,159 Speaker 1: sees her again. And you can tell that there's like 387 00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:23,520 Speaker 1: sorrow in her voice when she's eighty and talking about 388 00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:28,040 Speaker 1: this right, that she never sees her accomplice again. And 389 00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:31,200 Speaker 1: then she walks a fucking hundred miles to Doublin by herself. 390 00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:34,720 Speaker 1: How old is she at this point? Twelve or thirteen 391 00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:37,840 Speaker 1: different versions of the story I give different ages. She 392 00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:40,720 Speaker 1: eats raw turnips that she pulls out of the field, 393 00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:45,320 Speaker 1: She drinks from roadside wells, and the main people who 394 00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:48,040 Speaker 1: take care of her, who help her are the travelers, 395 00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:53,640 Speaker 1: which are well, they're they're traveling in horse drawn carriages 396 00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:55,639 Speaker 1: and they give her tea and they help her on 397 00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:58,720 Speaker 1: her way to freedom. And so she goes from basically 398 00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:01,080 Speaker 1: like caravans site to care van site that's where she 399 00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:04,200 Speaker 1: stays each night. And they knew she was like, hey, 400 00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:05,639 Speaker 1: I'm on the run from the nuns. And then the 401 00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:08,840 Speaker 1: travelers who are actually mostly Catholic, right, But they're like, yeah, 402 00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:10,160 Speaker 1: of course, we're not going to fucking turn you into 403 00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:14,040 Speaker 1: the fucking nuns. Because as I keep going on and 404 00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:15,439 Speaker 1: on about the show, I swear I'm going to cover 405 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:19,479 Speaker 1: a different country soon. There's a difference between Catholic as 406 00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:24,480 Speaker 1: a cultural identification and Roman Catholic adherence to the hierarchy 407 00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:29,439 Speaker 1: and just as an aside, the Irish Travelers are a 408 00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:32,680 Speaker 1: distinct ethnic group within Ireland that finally want its acknowledgment 409 00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:36,720 Speaker 1: as such in twenty seventeen. It's not exactly known when 410 00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:39,040 Speaker 1: they became culturally distinct from the rest of Irish culture. 411 00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:44,600 Speaker 1: The various guesses they differ by literally thousands of years. 412 00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:48,760 Speaker 1: It is possible that they are pre Celtic. It is 413 00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:51,080 Speaker 1: possible that they split off in the sixteen fifties when 414 00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:57,399 Speaker 1: Cromwell invaded. It's amazing to not know, I know something 415 00:23:57,480 --> 00:23:59,439 Speaker 1: so may here it kind of I don't know. I 416 00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:03,080 Speaker 1: love that we can't figure everything out through carbon dating. Yeah, 417 00:24:03,359 --> 00:24:05,680 Speaker 1: And it's like and I think the main way that 418 00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:08,280 Speaker 1: people are trying to figure it out right now is 419 00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:10,960 Speaker 1: is like DNA testing, genetic testing and stuff. And it's like, 420 00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:16,480 Speaker 1: but that's not answering everything, right, because it's not. It's 421 00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:22,960 Speaker 1: there is some like DNA difference variation, right, but overall 422 00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:26,560 Speaker 1: you're talking about a different culture within Irish culture, you know, right. 423 00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:30,639 Speaker 1: So these are the people will help her until she 424 00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:34,399 Speaker 1: gets to Dublin, when at some point she tries to 425 00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:36,399 Speaker 1: like get on a bus and the bus drivers like 426 00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:38,000 Speaker 1: you and got him money. Get the fuck off, right, 427 00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:41,920 Speaker 1: So she walks one hundred fucking miles. No one came 428 00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:44,840 Speaker 1: after her, no one was looking for her. She gets 429 00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:46,960 Speaker 1: to Dublin. She goes up to a dorman and she's like, hey, 430 00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:49,080 Speaker 1: where can I stay? And he's like, why do you 431 00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:51,520 Speaker 1: have any money? And she's like no, and he sends 432 00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:53,119 Speaker 1: her to a hostel and gives her enough money for 433 00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:57,920 Speaker 1: the hostel and she started a new life. She stayed religious, 434 00:24:57,960 --> 00:24:59,680 Speaker 1: but she has no nice words to say about the 435 00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:04,120 Speaker 1: people kept her in captivity, And when she was interviewed 436 00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:06,440 Speaker 1: about it when she was eighty, she had one message 437 00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:08,119 Speaker 1: she wanted to get through to the audience. So I 438 00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:10,840 Speaker 1: just feel like it's like worth repeating. Whether you're a 439 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:12,359 Speaker 1: man or a woman, or a boy or a girl, 440 00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:15,359 Speaker 1: everybody is equal. This is what she wants you to know, 441 00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:20,440 Speaker 1: because she's fucking cool. Okay, She's just cool, And she's 442 00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:24,800 Speaker 1: not the only person who broke out. In the nineteen fifties, 443 00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:28,439 Speaker 1: there was a mass escape from the Galway the Galway 444 00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:31,600 Speaker 1: laundry by a workman's ladder, where thirty women made it out, 445 00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:37,160 Speaker 1: some of them which I know. I think I read 446 00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:38,919 Speaker 1: a couple different times the numbers of people who are 447 00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:41,520 Speaker 1: at these things. I think that's like most are all 448 00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:44,679 Speaker 1: of the girls, and so these things where they're like, oh, 449 00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:49,159 Speaker 1: everyone's happy to be here, Like, motherfucker, thirty people just 450 00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:53,159 Speaker 1: broke out. No one's happy to be some muction liberal 451 00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:58,480 Speaker 1: arts colleges. Yeah, totally. We just drop out one by one, 452 00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:05,639 Speaker 1: not all together generally. Yeah, some of these thirty women 453 00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:08,399 Speaker 1: were recaptured. Some made it to Dublin or England with 454 00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:11,000 Speaker 1: help from families who gave them money in clothes. This 455 00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:13,679 Speaker 1: is where I get the like belief that Galway had 456 00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:15,680 Speaker 1: a culture of like, yeah. 457 00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:15,760 Speaker 3: We. 458 00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:20,680 Speaker 1: You see something, you don't say something. You know, you 459 00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:26,720 Speaker 1: see something, you help it makes sense. Yeah, And others 460 00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:29,440 Speaker 1: got out in laundry baskets or climbed down from the 461 00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:31,520 Speaker 1: roof and heavy rain like you do in heavy rain, 462 00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:33,520 Speaker 1: it's like harder for people to follow you. It's like 463 00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:37,840 Speaker 1: one of the direct action tips with Margaret. One of 464 00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:41,320 Speaker 1: the things that I learned by doing forest defense is 465 00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:43,840 Speaker 1: that if the police are chasing you, you always run uphill. 466 00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:47,000 Speaker 1: And the reason is that you always want to get 467 00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:49,639 Speaker 1: away more than someone wants to catch you and running 468 00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:56,800 Speaker 1: uphill is really really annoying. Yeah, yeah, God, I'm gonna 469 00:26:56,840 --> 00:27:01,600 Speaker 1: remember that. Yeah. In nineteen ninety three, this is like 470 00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:05,399 Speaker 1: the last escapee that I'm aware of. There was a 471 00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:08,640 Speaker 1: girl named Jenny who doesn't give she's alive. She does 472 00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:11,760 Speaker 1: not give her real or last name to the press 473 00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:15,080 Speaker 1: about this. She broke out of the laundry at fifteen 474 00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:18,679 Speaker 1: And this is the same laundry I think that Shenad 475 00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:22,280 Speaker 1: O'Connor was at, because Snead O'Connor was at the last 476 00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:24,040 Speaker 1: one to close, and this Jenny was at the last 477 00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:27,960 Speaker 1: one to close. She had tried to escape time after time, 478 00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:30,159 Speaker 1: and each time she was brought back by the police, 479 00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:33,440 Speaker 1: even though you know she was free. This woman is 480 00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:37,080 Speaker 1: basically my age now, like she's in her early forties. Wow. 481 00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:40,560 Speaker 1: And she was an inmate at the last laundry in Ireland. 482 00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:42,800 Speaker 1: She'd been sent into the system when she was nine 483 00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:48,679 Speaker 1: or ten by a dying mother. Six years later, she 484 00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:52,040 Speaker 1: stole some money from the nun's office, then bribed her 485 00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:54,600 Speaker 1: fellows with fruit. She didn't spend the money on this, 486 00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:58,080 Speaker 1: She had it all fucking planned out. She gets some money, 487 00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:00,240 Speaker 1: she bribes her fellows with fruit so that she could 488 00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:03,080 Speaker 1: be near the front door when the mother superior came in. 489 00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:06,639 Speaker 1: And then when the mother superior came in, she just 490 00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:10,879 Speaker 1: fucking ran through that old lady like it's like what 491 00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:13,439 Speaker 1: she talks about. She's like, I don't think I pushed 492 00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:19,160 Speaker 1: her too hard. She didn't, She didn't go flying. She 493 00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:22,320 Speaker 1: totally just fucking like just fucking knocked that lady flat 494 00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:26,479 Speaker 1: and kept running neck and then just took off. And 495 00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:29,640 Speaker 1: her theory, which proved true, is that kids run faster than. 496 00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:34,480 Speaker 2: Adults, especially old nuns who set around abusing children all day. 497 00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:39,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, so she sprinted two fucking miles before she stopped 498 00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:42,360 Speaker 1: to collect herself. Her uniform would give her away, so 499 00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:45,120 Speaker 1: she shoplifted some jeans and a shirt and slept in 500 00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:48,000 Speaker 1: a park. She made her way to the port. The 501 00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:50,840 Speaker 1: next day she bought tickets to England and she went 502 00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:53,360 Speaker 1: off to London, not knowing a fucking soul in the world. 503 00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:57,320 Speaker 1: This was really hard, right, They really fucked her by 504 00:28:57,320 --> 00:28:59,560 Speaker 1: putting her in this situation. She told the Irish Times, 505 00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:01,600 Speaker 1: who sent sort of the cuss words she's about to say. 506 00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:05,040 Speaker 1: The nuns were bitches and cunts, but London on your own. 507 00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:08,120 Speaker 1: The convent was a breeze compared to living homeless in London. 508 00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:12,240 Speaker 1: But so she had a rough go of it for 509 00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:15,640 Speaker 1: a good long while. But eventually her and her kids 510 00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:18,120 Speaker 1: moved to a small town in rural Island, where she 511 00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:22,160 Speaker 1: lives to this day. And I think she's found some peace. 512 00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:27,160 Speaker 1: The last laund go ahead. Sorry, god, no. 513 00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:29,640 Speaker 2: This reminds me of something I believe, which is women 514 00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:34,240 Speaker 2: can survive anything, but should we have to totally? 515 00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:40,600 Speaker 1: Totally? Yeah? Like, and it's it's like all of the 516 00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:44,440 Speaker 1: she had to commit crimes in order to get away, right, 517 00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:47,200 Speaker 1: And I'm sure people would use this against her. You're like, oh, 518 00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:49,920 Speaker 1: you stole from the nuns, you shoplifted jeans, you like, 519 00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:53,440 Speaker 1: did all kinds of stuff to survive in London, you know, 520 00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:58,480 Speaker 1: like yeah, when she was nine, she was given to 521 00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:04,040 Speaker 1: a hell nightmare land. Yeah, like right, fuck do you want? 522 00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:06,840 Speaker 2: Right? And it feels like one of the you know, 523 00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:09,479 Speaker 2: one of the more horrible things about aspects of history 524 00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:11,479 Speaker 2: like this is that the things you have to do 525 00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:15,720 Speaker 2: to survive being placed in the category you're placed in 526 00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:19,720 Speaker 2: by society are then used to reinforce people's document about 527 00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:20,600 Speaker 2: why you should be there. 528 00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:24,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think that's probably why she's not like, 529 00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:28,000 Speaker 1: you know, like the article I read where she's talking 530 00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:30,040 Speaker 1: about it, her photo is her back turned, you know, 531 00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:33,720 Speaker 1: and she's not using her name, just like people would 532 00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:35,840 Speaker 1: get mad that she talks about the stuff that she 533 00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:39,280 Speaker 1: had to do in order to fucking survive, you know. Yeah, 534 00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:46,360 Speaker 1: and yeah, so the last laundry in Ireland was probably 535 00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:49,480 Speaker 1: the last Magdalen laundry that in the world. I don't 536 00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:52,880 Speaker 1: know whatever, anytime I'm like the last, the first, I've 537 00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:54,720 Speaker 1: been over this bunch of times. I just hate it. 538 00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:56,800 Speaker 1: It was closed on the twenty fifth of September nineteen 539 00:30:56,840 --> 00:31:00,240 Speaker 1: ninety six in Waterford, a city in the South Feast 540 00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:02,360 Speaker 1: of Ireland, and. 541 00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:05,600 Speaker 2: Which is like that's the year the bird Cake came out, you. 542 00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:12,320 Speaker 1: Know, yeah, totally, Like I was in I don't remember 543 00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:13,760 Speaker 1: if I went to high school in nineteen ninety six 544 00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:16,400 Speaker 1: or nineteen ninety seven, but because I'm bad at math, 545 00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:19,520 Speaker 1: but like, yeah, like I. 546 00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:22,840 Speaker 2: Were like having sentient political thoughts at that age. 547 00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:25,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, they were bad ones, but yeah, but 548 00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:26,440 Speaker 1: they were thoughts. 549 00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:28,520 Speaker 2: But right, but yes, the idea of like this within 550 00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:32,760 Speaker 2: our lifetimes is uh, yeah, astounding, totally. Yeah, at this 551 00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:34,400 Speaker 2: point it makes I believe it. 552 00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:36,600 Speaker 1: And so we're talking about runaways from the fifties, and 553 00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:40,320 Speaker 1: we're talking about runaways who are like, you know, young 554 00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:45,960 Speaker 1: middle aged people now you know. Yeah, And it would 555 00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:48,800 Speaker 1: have happened without fanfare, the last closure, and it would 556 00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:52,640 Speaker 1: have been memory Hold, probably except when the Sisterhood sold 557 00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:55,200 Speaker 1: the building, which they sold because they like couldn't account 558 00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:58,440 Speaker 1: for some debts or something. They also couldn't account for 559 00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:02,000 Speaker 1: all the bodies in the graveyard. Nuns never can can 560 00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:05,440 Speaker 1: they They're like, oh, who put that there? There was 561 00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:11,160 Speaker 1: like fifteen bonus corpses. Oh my god. And it became 562 00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:16,320 Speaker 1: a scandal. Right in twenty eleven, the government put together 563 00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:19,080 Speaker 1: a thousand page report detailing the nightmare of the laundryes, 564 00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:24,120 Speaker 1: with a call for apologies and reparations. You'll be shocked. 565 00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:27,280 Speaker 1: This is gonna prepare yourself for the most shocking news 566 00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:30,520 Speaker 1: of the week. The US has done no such thing. 567 00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:36,240 Speaker 1: There have been no acknowledgments, and the US isn't apologize. No, 568 00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:41,200 Speaker 1: we certainly don't pay reparations, even though we're entirely built 569 00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:46,320 Speaker 1: on anyway. We don't have any money. It's in it's 570 00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:52,840 Speaker 1: all tied up in unusable weapons. Honey, Yeah, totally and 571 00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:55,960 Speaker 1: not cool weapons. This isn't an ad break god. No, 572 00:32:56,760 --> 00:32:59,000 Speaker 1: not the real genius laser or anything like that. 573 00:32:59,240 --> 00:32:59,440 Speaker 3: No. 574 00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:02,200 Speaker 1: And you want to know how I know. One of 575 00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:03,920 Speaker 1: the ways that I know that it was never about 576 00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:05,920 Speaker 1: helping women besides, of course all the things that they 577 00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:11,400 Speaker 1: did to women, because of how they ended most Magdalen laundries, 578 00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:15,160 Speaker 1: especially in the US, they shut down in the nineteen sixties. 579 00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:18,560 Speaker 1: And this wasn't because like the US was like a 580 00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:21,880 Speaker 1: women are people and we shouldn't get treated this way, right, 581 00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:26,440 Speaker 1: They shut down because of the automated washing machine. 582 00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:34,040 Speaker 2: Ah, I want to go. I want to go walk 583 00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:41,880 Speaker 2: around the block because it's like, right, of course, we 584 00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:45,640 Speaker 2: like never realized that we should stop being really evil. 585 00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:48,920 Speaker 2: We're like, oh my god, this has stopped being profitable. 586 00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:50,360 Speaker 2: Got a king cartoon. 587 00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:56,200 Speaker 1: Yeah. See the fact that an industrialized economy doesn't work 588 00:33:56,200 --> 00:34:01,080 Speaker 1: as well with chattel slavery as an agricultural one. And 589 00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:02,160 Speaker 1: there are many. 590 00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:05,600 Speaker 2: Many racists in the North, and there's all the immigrants 591 00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:09,280 Speaker 2: you can maim up in New York City, Yeah, totally, 592 00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:14,560 Speaker 2: or steal and self at a profit. There's so many 593 00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:17,960 Speaker 2: things you can so so many ways to derive profit. Yeah, 594 00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:21,880 Speaker 2: that's yeah. 595 00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:29,960 Speaker 1: I'm so sad the uh the automatic washing machine I 596 00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:32,680 Speaker 1: now know about. I've spent a while researching the history 597 00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:35,640 Speaker 1: of the washing machine after this. The electric ones have 598 00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:37,560 Speaker 1: been around for a while, but like automated ones and 599 00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:39,840 Speaker 1: like stop and go and are like fancy or whatever. 600 00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:42,160 Speaker 1: They hit the scene in the nineteen fifties and they 601 00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:45,560 Speaker 1: destroyed the profit margin on the laundries. And in Ireland 602 00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:48,799 Speaker 1: the laundry is kept going using washing machines because home 603 00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:53,239 Speaker 1: washing machine adoption was slower and. 604 00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:56,080 Speaker 2: Because your white skut wider. If you have a kidnapped 605 00:34:56,120 --> 00:34:57,880 Speaker 2: teenage girl, press the button. 606 00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:03,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, totally. In twenty thirteen, the government of Ireland 607 00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:06,920 Speaker 1: issued a formal apology to survivors and started paying out compensation. 608 00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:10,960 Speaker 1: The religious institutions involved have kept documents sealed and have 609 00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:14,600 Speaker 1: refused to help compensate their victims, and so it's like 610 00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:17,480 Speaker 1: all on the government or whatever, you know. In twenty eleven, 611 00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:19,680 Speaker 1: the town of Ennis put up a plaque in honor 612 00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:23,600 Speaker 1: of the not the victims of it, the perpetrators of it. 613 00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:25,400 Speaker 1: The town of n has put up a plaque in 614 00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:27,520 Speaker 1: honor of the Sisters of Mercy, not the cool band, 615 00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:32,720 Speaker 1: but the Order of Nuns with the plaque specifically honored 616 00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:36,400 Speaker 1: them for their for profit no due process torture prison. 617 00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:38,560 Speaker 1: It didn't phrase it that way. It was about like 618 00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:44,040 Speaker 1: helping wayward souls or whatever the fuck. I believe all 619 00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:51,000 Speaker 1: Sisters of Mercy plaques should just say, what's a I 620 00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:53,000 Speaker 1: listened to Sisters of Mercy once a week at least, 621 00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:56,880 Speaker 1: and how do I not know any Sisters of Mercy lyrics? 622 00:35:56,920 --> 00:36:00,399 Speaker 1: Off of the top of my head. Here you come, 623 00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:03,480 Speaker 1: your marching men with callers wrapped around. There you go. 624 00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:05,880 Speaker 1: That's what the Sisters of Mercy plaques should say. And 625 00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:08,880 Speaker 1: if you want a custom plaque, are we are? We? 626 00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:14,040 Speaker 1: Did you get the custom plac sponsorship, Sophie. 627 00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:14,520 Speaker 2: I mean don't. 628 00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:17,839 Speaker 3: Doesn't that automatically happen with a podcast like this? 629 00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:21,000 Speaker 1: I think so. But if we don't, if we're not 630 00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:24,000 Speaker 1: paid by custom plaques, then fuck custom plaques. You should 631 00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:30,759 Speaker 1: only get pre manufactured plaques with specific trait sayings on them, 632 00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:40,279 Speaker 1: like women fear fish and men dot dot dot. That's 633 00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:43,640 Speaker 1: a really popular plaque. I like that. 634 00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:45,799 Speaker 2: I love the idea of ending something with men dot 635 00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:48,400 Speaker 2: dot dot. We just haven't figured it out yet. Metare 636 00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:52,160 Speaker 2: from Mars. Women are from dot dot dot dot. 637 00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:59,200 Speaker 1: We don't know. Yeah, women are from Ellipsis. And if 638 00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:01,399 Speaker 1: we are a sponsor by custom plaques, then I take 639 00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:04,080 Speaker 1: it back and you should get plaques that say anything 640 00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:07,120 Speaker 1: you want. Did you know you can just get custom 641 00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:09,200 Speaker 1: plaques and then install them around the city and people 642 00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:12,120 Speaker 1: will think that they're legitimate. They could say anything you want. 643 00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:19,960 Speaker 1: Custom plats are recently affordable. Wow, here's some other ads 644 00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:23,800 Speaker 1: and we're back. 645 00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:24,560 Speaker 2: Hi. 646 00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:30,320 Speaker 1: Hello, I want to talk about the most famous survivor 647 00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:34,600 Speaker 1: of the Magdalen laundries. His recent death is the thing 648 00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:36,920 Speaker 1: that spurred me into research in the first place. I 649 00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:39,520 Speaker 1: was like totally, like, I've done so many Ireland episodes lately, 650 00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:43,120 Speaker 1: and I've been like, I'm moving to talk about other places, 651 00:37:43,239 --> 00:37:47,600 Speaker 1: and then I don't know. How was it for you 652 00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:50,480 Speaker 1: when you heard shnado Connor die? You did an episode 653 00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:53,000 Speaker 1: about shnado' connor. You're wrong by Shnado Connor, like only 654 00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:55,879 Speaker 1: a couple months ago, right, yeah, like three months ago, 655 00:37:56,000 --> 00:37:56,480 Speaker 1: I think. 656 00:37:56,560 --> 00:38:02,840 Speaker 2: And I it was, as you said, you have listened 657 00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:06,680 Speaker 2: to me in this episode more recently than I have 658 00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:09,520 Speaker 2: been myself hearing what I said in it. But I 659 00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:12,400 Speaker 2: believe that, you know, we ended up talking about how 660 00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:16,040 Speaker 2: you know, we ended it on a really hopeful note, 661 00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:19,680 Speaker 2: and I remember quoted, you know, one of her recent songs, 662 00:38:19,719 --> 00:38:21,920 Speaker 2: and I don't. It's not as if I feel like 663 00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:24,719 Speaker 2: this is a reversal of that, because no, I think 664 00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:27,920 Speaker 2: whatever piece you're able to find in your life is 665 00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:32,200 Speaker 2: points the way toward hope for everybody, and it is 666 00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:36,960 Speaker 2: worth recognizing. But I guess I think what my first 667 00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:40,600 Speaker 2: coherent thought was that the American media is also to 668 00:38:40,640 --> 00:38:43,040 Speaker 2: blame in all this, and that we did things to 669 00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:45,480 Speaker 2: her that we could never make right, not that we tried. 670 00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:52,000 Speaker 1: I think that that is absolutely true. Yeah, so this 671 00:38:52,040 --> 00:38:53,840 Speaker 1: isn't going to be a deep dive in Shnad O'Connor. 672 00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:56,640 Speaker 1: Those are available worth looking into. I liked you wrong 673 00:38:56,640 --> 00:38:59,839 Speaker 1: about shnado' connor. People probably figured out that out by now. 674 00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:04,400 Speaker 1: I would argue Shinead O'Connor was famous for three things, 675 00:39:04,719 --> 00:39:06,640 Speaker 1: and I'm going to do this in order of what 676 00:39:06,680 --> 00:39:11,520 Speaker 1: I knew about her. One having a shaved head, two 677 00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:13,839 Speaker 1: having one of the strongest voices God has ever put 678 00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:17,160 Speaker 1: onto this earth, and three ripping up a picture of 679 00:39:17,160 --> 00:39:19,279 Speaker 1: the Pope on live TV and having everyone get mad 680 00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:21,280 Speaker 1: about it and not understand what she was doing. 681 00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:27,279 Speaker 2: Yeah, as immortalized on the Mark McGrath hosted VH one's 682 00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:29,560 Speaker 2: one hundred Most Shocking Moments in Rock. 683 00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:33,839 Speaker 1: I mean, like it's funny because I'm like, what belongs there, 684 00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:37,279 Speaker 1: doesn't belong to be shamed and yelled at. But it 685 00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:40,880 Speaker 1: was a certainly an effective and eye opening and shocking 686 00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:41,680 Speaker 1: thing that happened. 687 00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:45,320 Speaker 2: It was, although I will say, because I have recently 688 00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:48,080 Speaker 2: gone back and studied Mark McGrath's delivery, that it was 689 00:39:48,160 --> 00:39:51,680 Speaker 2: like framed kind of as if it was like too 690 00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:57,319 Speaker 2: dangerous to ever watch that footage again. God, and an 691 00:39:57,320 --> 00:40:00,480 Speaker 2: you know it's not exactly eating the head off of 692 00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:03,400 Speaker 2: a bat or whatever that was. 693 00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:09,000 Speaker 1: I mean, that's the like that story is up there 694 00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:11,080 Speaker 1: with like Marilyn Manson removing his ribs. To me, I 695 00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:13,920 Speaker 1: don't know what's true. Yeah, well actually I think that 696 00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:15,759 Speaker 1: the bad thing might be true and the rib thing isn't, 697 00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:17,440 Speaker 1: but like it's just. 698 00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:21,640 Speaker 2: A mythologys Yeah, but yeah, that I don't know, and 699 00:40:21,640 --> 00:40:24,960 Speaker 2: that it felt like it also, you know, if you 700 00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:27,759 Speaker 2: become notorious for one moment of your career, which many 701 00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:30,799 Speaker 2: people do, then like that always flattens you know, the 702 00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:32,280 Speaker 2: whole of who you are as a person. 703 00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:36,640 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And then people like always yelled at her 704 00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:39,040 Speaker 1: for being a good artist. She talks about this sometimes. 705 00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:41,160 Speaker 1: This is I'm now offscript. She would talk about this 706 00:40:41,160 --> 00:40:44,160 Speaker 1: sometimes where she was like, people get mad at me 707 00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:47,120 Speaker 1: for being vulnerable, but I'm I'm an artist. That is 708 00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:50,160 Speaker 1: my job. My job is to like channel emotions, right, 709 00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:53,399 Speaker 1: and like, you shouldn't have to be have a thick 710 00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:57,280 Speaker 1: skin in order to create art. In fact, specifically having 711 00:40:57,280 --> 00:41:00,319 Speaker 1: a thin skin is useful for the creation of art. 712 00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:03,439 Speaker 1: And like, one of the things that I think about 713 00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:05,960 Speaker 1: again and again and how she was treated, I mean, 714 00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:09,839 Speaker 1: society is doing to her, what American society and media 715 00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:14,120 Speaker 1: did to her, what Irish society did about respectability, politics 716 00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:17,480 Speaker 1: and shit. She like, she was diagnosed as bipolar, and 717 00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:18,880 Speaker 1: so she would like told people she was like, oh, 718 00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:20,839 Speaker 1: I was diagnosed as bipolar. But then she got second 719 00:41:20,880 --> 00:41:22,720 Speaker 1: and third and fourth opinion and all the other opinions 720 00:41:22,760 --> 00:41:25,719 Speaker 1: were like, you don't have a fucking bipolar Like, but 721 00:41:26,719 --> 00:41:29,200 Speaker 1: because she was honest about something she was going through, 722 00:41:29,239 --> 00:41:31,680 Speaker 1: everyone was like, ah, it's crazy, bitch, you know, And 723 00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:35,880 Speaker 1: not that anyone who had bipolar deserved to have what 724 00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:39,560 Speaker 1: happened to her. What happened to her. But okay, so 725 00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:42,239 Speaker 1: to me, what stands out about Shnada Connors that she 726 00:41:42,320 --> 00:41:44,360 Speaker 1: was two things. So she was a fighter and she 727 00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:47,000 Speaker 1: was a seeker. She was a fighter against inequality and 728 00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:50,600 Speaker 1: oppression everywhere she saw it. And I think theologically she 729 00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:53,760 Speaker 1: was a seeker. She never lost faith in the Divine, 730 00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:56,160 Speaker 1: which most of her life she referred to as the 731 00:41:56,160 --> 00:41:59,440 Speaker 1: Holy Spirit, even though she spent her entire life fighting 732 00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:02,240 Speaker 1: against the end institutions that wielded the Divine like a cudgel. 733 00:42:03,040 --> 00:42:04,840 Speaker 1: At the end of her life, her name was Shuhata 734 00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:08,879 Speaker 1: Sadakat because her theological journey led her, like so many 735 00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:11,960 Speaker 1: people that I've covered on this show, to Islam. I'm 736 00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:13,920 Speaker 1: using the name Shanade here because it seems like she 737 00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:17,520 Speaker 1: accepted that as a usable name for her right including 738 00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:20,759 Speaker 1: at the end of her life like that. That's my understanding. 739 00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:25,279 Speaker 1: I hope I'm not being disrespectful. And she was the 740 00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:27,880 Speaker 1: middle child of five. She was born in nineteen sixty 741 00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:31,360 Speaker 1: six to a Catholic family. Her father was the chairperson 742 00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:33,960 Speaker 1: of the Divorce Action Group, which was dedicated to trying 743 00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:36,960 Speaker 1: to allow divorce in the Republic of Ireland, because we 744 00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:39,880 Speaker 1: really only scratched the surface on the theocratic bullshit about Ireland. 745 00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:44,040 Speaker 1: Her mother was abusive to her, and when she was 746 00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:47,480 Speaker 1: fourteen or fifteen, she was caught shoplifting. So her father 747 00:42:48,600 --> 00:42:51,320 Speaker 1: paid the nuns to take her to a Magdalen laundry. 748 00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:54,600 Speaker 1: And she claims, and I believe her, that he did 749 00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:57,840 Speaker 1: not know what a nightmare of the place was. He 750 00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:02,799 Speaker 1: thought he was doing what was right to help his 751 00:43:03,520 --> 00:43:09,560 Speaker 1: daughter get back on the straight and arrow, right and okay. 752 00:43:09,600 --> 00:43:10,799 Speaker 1: And then one of the things I'm really mad at 753 00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:12,600 Speaker 1: the press about, I'm just like mad about everything about 754 00:43:12,640 --> 00:43:15,319 Speaker 1: the way that Shenad O'Connor stories talked about. When I 755 00:43:15,360 --> 00:43:17,560 Speaker 1: was like researching about her time in the Magdalen laundries, 756 00:43:17,719 --> 00:43:20,200 Speaker 1: all the surface level stuff you find is all about 757 00:43:20,200 --> 00:43:23,319 Speaker 1: how positive it is. It's all like, oh, you know, 758 00:43:23,719 --> 00:43:28,920 Speaker 1: like the nun like she got special treatment and one 759 00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:31,160 Speaker 1: of the nuns like gave her a guitar and gave 760 00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:35,799 Speaker 1: her music lessons and stuff. You know, Oh great, And 761 00:43:36,160 --> 00:43:40,080 Speaker 1: clearly these people did not ask Shnad O'Connor her opinion 762 00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:44,280 Speaker 1: about what happened to her. She told the Irish son quote. 763 00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:49,040 Speaker 1: We were girls in there, not women, just children really, 764 00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:51,920 Speaker 1: and the girls in their cried every day. It was 765 00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:55,080 Speaker 1: a prison. We didn't see our families. We were locked in, 766 00:43:55,480 --> 00:43:59,080 Speaker 1: cut off from life, deprived of a normal childhood. We 767 00:43:59,080 --> 00:44:01,520 Speaker 1: were told that we were there because we were bad people. 768 00:44:02,040 --> 00:44:03,640 Speaker 1: Some of the girls had been raped at home and 769 00:44:03,719 --> 00:44:05,960 Speaker 1: not believed. One girl was in because she had a 770 00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:07,600 Speaker 1: bad hip and her family didn't know what to do 771 00:44:07,680 --> 00:44:11,080 Speaker 1: with her. She does specifically say that she doesn't consider 772 00:44:11,080 --> 00:44:13,879 Speaker 1: her experience their abuse because it wasn't nearly so bad 773 00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:17,400 Speaker 1: as the earlier days of the laundries. But I mean whatever, 774 00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:20,840 Speaker 1: if she misbehaved, she was sent up as punishment to 775 00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:23,400 Speaker 1: sleep in the room with the older dying penitence, like 776 00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:29,359 Speaker 1: the concentrated penitence. She worked unpaid as a laundress. One 777 00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:31,480 Speaker 1: nun there gave her first guitar and set up with 778 00:44:31,560 --> 00:44:34,680 Speaker 1: music lessons as if she and they talk about this 779 00:44:34,680 --> 00:44:37,280 Speaker 1: because it's like basically, it's like, look at this ungrateful 780 00:44:37,280 --> 00:44:39,279 Speaker 1: bitch is like mad at the Catholic church. But they're 781 00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:42,200 Speaker 1: the ones who gave her her start. She wouldn't have 782 00:44:42,239 --> 00:44:44,680 Speaker 1: been a pop star if it wasn't for the mane 783 00:44:44,800 --> 00:44:48,920 Speaker 1: not trauma. What could she have written all those songs about. Yeah, 784 00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:52,840 Speaker 1: it was a really trauma. I mean, like, certainly she 785 00:44:52,840 --> 00:44:56,480 Speaker 1: didn't have complex PTSD that people often misdiagnos as these 786 00:44:56,480 --> 00:45:03,560 Speaker 1: other personality disorders. Heavens now. She was released after eighteen months, 787 00:45:03,640 --> 00:45:06,920 Speaker 1: because most most girls were. She was released to a 788 00:45:06,920 --> 00:45:10,759 Speaker 1: boarding school, and soon enough she became a pop star. 789 00:45:11,160 --> 00:45:13,359 Speaker 1: Her cover of Nothing Compares to You a Prince Song 790 00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:16,600 Speaker 1: became the number one song worldwide in nineteen ninety. 791 00:45:17,160 --> 00:45:19,560 Speaker 2: Also the number one song I listened to the first 792 00:45:19,640 --> 00:45:22,160 Speaker 2: time I fell in love with a complete moron in 793 00:45:22,239 --> 00:45:23,280 Speaker 2: two thousand and six. 794 00:45:24,520 --> 00:45:27,560 Speaker 1: Hell yeah, I can't believe you're talking about your spouse 795 00:45:27,600 --> 00:45:36,640 Speaker 1: that way. I didn't like Shinead O'Connor much when I 796 00:45:36,680 --> 00:45:41,520 Speaker 1: was a teenager, but I do now. My tastes have 797 00:45:41,560 --> 00:45:45,759 Speaker 1: evolved and gotten better, but I always but I was 798 00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:48,960 Speaker 1: like so torn because I loved her image. Right. She 799 00:45:49,040 --> 00:45:51,400 Speaker 1: had fucking boots, she had a shaved head, she was 800 00:45:51,440 --> 00:45:54,240 Speaker 1: a no apollo like. I loved everything about the aesthetics 801 00:45:54,280 --> 00:45:57,640 Speaker 1: she was selling, and like or I perceived as being whatever. 802 00:45:57,840 --> 00:45:59,439 Speaker 1: She wasn't actually out there trying to make a book. 803 00:45:59,480 --> 00:46:02,120 Speaker 1: You know, she was actually really fucking authentic, and I 804 00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:04,799 Speaker 1: think that that came across, you know, which is why 805 00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:08,000 Speaker 1: people liked to try and get money out of her. 806 00:46:08,480 --> 00:46:12,320 Speaker 1: But she used that platform. She took incredible amounts of 807 00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:16,560 Speaker 1: risk to be in the public eye that we we 808 00:46:16,680 --> 00:46:19,799 Speaker 1: don't know how she died, but I'm sure that the 809 00:46:19,800 --> 00:46:23,120 Speaker 1: way she was treated impacted her health. Is I think 810 00:46:23,160 --> 00:46:26,239 Speaker 1: that I don't want to make assumptions about how she died, 811 00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:27,399 Speaker 1: but you. 812 00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:30,799 Speaker 2: Know, being kicked around by the public does tend to 813 00:46:30,840 --> 00:46:32,800 Speaker 2: shorten your lifespan in one way or another. 814 00:46:32,880 --> 00:46:37,319 Speaker 1: Yeah, and she did it to help people like that? 815 00:46:37,440 --> 00:46:43,719 Speaker 1: Is she fucking like like I just like she took 816 00:46:43,920 --> 00:46:48,160 Speaker 1: the hit so that other people didn't have to. She 817 00:46:48,200 --> 00:46:50,560 Speaker 1: immediately used the attention she got to draw attention to 818 00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:53,560 Speaker 1: other issues. In nineteen eighty nine, she appeared at the 819 00:46:53,560 --> 00:46:55,440 Speaker 1: Grammys for the first time I think maybe the only time. 820 00:46:55,440 --> 00:46:58,719 Speaker 1: I'm not actually sure, and Rap had been excluded from 821 00:46:58,719 --> 00:47:01,719 Speaker 1: being televised. They had finally like condescended to give Rap 822 00:47:01,760 --> 00:47:05,560 Speaker 1: a like award Best Rap Album, but they were like, oh, 823 00:47:05,640 --> 00:47:07,719 Speaker 1: we can't like televise. It's just this flash in the 824 00:47:07,760 --> 00:47:10,200 Speaker 1: pan thing for you know, people of color or whatever. 825 00:47:10,360 --> 00:47:13,960 Speaker 1: I'm sure they didn't use that terminology, and so Shinad 826 00:47:14,000 --> 00:47:16,480 Speaker 1: O'Connor performed with the Public Enemy logo painted on her 827 00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:20,839 Speaker 1: shaved head. And I love her. 828 00:47:21,040 --> 00:47:21,200 Speaker 3: I know. 829 00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:23,839 Speaker 1: It's so fucking cool, I know. And there's all these 830 00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:25,920 Speaker 1: like photos of her just like hanging out with punks 831 00:47:25,920 --> 00:47:29,440 Speaker 1: while wearing a like by any means necessary, Malcolm XX shirt. 832 00:47:29,880 --> 00:47:37,160 Speaker 1: You know whose spiritual journey she followed essentially, you know, 833 00:47:37,480 --> 00:47:39,399 Speaker 1: Malcolm X. We've covered him a little bit on this show. 834 00:47:39,440 --> 00:47:42,600 Speaker 1: Started off as sort of being like, whodwinked by a 835 00:47:42,719 --> 00:47:46,400 Speaker 1: Khan religion the Nation of Islam and ended up actually 836 00:47:46,560 --> 00:47:54,880 Speaker 1: Islamic and the Nation of Islam killed him for it. Uh. Anyway, 837 00:47:55,480 --> 00:47:57,680 Speaker 1: and all of this time she's reading about the church, 838 00:47:58,239 --> 00:48:00,440 Speaker 1: and I actually had assumed. I was like, oh it 839 00:48:00,480 --> 00:48:02,640 Speaker 1: was people say that the pope thing was about child abuse, 840 00:48:02,680 --> 00:48:04,800 Speaker 1: but it's actually probably about her own experiences. It was 841 00:48:04,840 --> 00:48:10,160 Speaker 1: actually about the child abuse. She read about the child 842 00:48:10,160 --> 00:48:14,640 Speaker 1: abuse scandals that weren't broken widely yet, but people fucking knew, 843 00:48:15,000 --> 00:48:20,120 Speaker 1: you know. Oh yeah, And so she read about the 844 00:48:20,200 --> 00:48:23,560 Speaker 1: rampant pedophilia and the church. So she went on Saturday 845 00:48:23,600 --> 00:48:26,440 Speaker 1: Night Live in nineteen ninety two, she did an acoustic 846 00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:29,160 Speaker 1: cover of a Bob Marley song called War. She took 847 00:48:29,200 --> 00:48:31,760 Speaker 1: her abusive mother's photo of the pope out and ripped 848 00:48:31,760 --> 00:48:34,359 Speaker 1: it up, staring at the camera and saying, fight the 849 00:48:34,360 --> 00:48:39,400 Speaker 1: real enemy. And everything went great for her and everyone 850 00:48:39,480 --> 00:48:43,400 Speaker 1: realized they just needed a wake up call. She was 851 00:48:43,520 --> 00:48:47,960 Speaker 1: universally reviled, nearly universally reviled, like even like Bob Dylan 852 00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:50,560 Speaker 1: didn't stand up for her, but like Chris Christofferson did, 853 00:48:52,560 --> 00:48:57,120 Speaker 1: and she was right. The child abuse scandals, the cash 854 00:48:57,120 --> 00:48:59,520 Speaker 1: for Kids programs, and the horrors of the laundry had 855 00:48:59,600 --> 00:49:02,239 Speaker 1: yet to be revealed to the world, so people didn't 856 00:49:02,239 --> 00:49:05,080 Speaker 1: know what the fuck she was on about. You know, 857 00:49:05,280 --> 00:49:08,840 Speaker 1: it seemed like someone going up and just like attacking 858 00:49:08,840 --> 00:49:12,840 Speaker 1: a religious symbol. And as far as I can tell, 859 00:49:12,880 --> 00:49:16,080 Speaker 1: this is the first widely viewed statement about the abuse 860 00:49:16,480 --> 00:49:20,280 Speaker 1: in the Catholic Church. And it seems too gets completely 861 00:49:20,320 --> 00:49:27,400 Speaker 1: bounced off people. Yeah yeah, and uh yeah. Losing her 862 00:49:27,480 --> 00:49:29,960 Speaker 1: megastartom didn't stop her from singing, It didn't stop her 863 00:49:29,960 --> 00:49:32,600 Speaker 1: from fighting, It didn't stop her from her seeking her 864 00:49:32,680 --> 00:49:35,680 Speaker 1: theological wisdom. And want to I want to talk a 865 00:49:35,680 --> 00:49:39,080 Speaker 1: little bit about how okay from She wrote an article 866 00:49:39,080 --> 00:49:41,120 Speaker 1: about some of this stuff in the Washington Post in 867 00:49:41,120 --> 00:49:45,279 Speaker 1: twenty ten. I'm gonna quote the very people who say 868 00:49:45,320 --> 00:49:47,760 Speaker 1: they are the keepers of the Holy Spirit are stamping 869 00:49:48,239 --> 00:49:51,960 Speaker 1: all over everything. The Holy Spirit truly is. Pope Benedict 870 00:49:51,960 --> 00:49:55,040 Speaker 1: criminally misrepresents the God we adore. We all know in 871 00:49:55,040 --> 00:49:57,640 Speaker 1: our bones that the Holy Spirit is truth. That's how 872 00:49:57,640 --> 00:49:59,600 Speaker 1: we can tell that Christ is not with these people 873 00:49:59,640 --> 00:50:03,080 Speaker 1: who so frequently invoke him. Irish Catholics are in a 874 00:50:03,160 --> 00:50:07,360 Speaker 1: dysfunctional relationship with an abusive organization in Ireland. It is 875 00:50:07,440 --> 00:50:10,239 Speaker 1: time we separated our God from our religion and our 876 00:50:10,239 --> 00:50:14,239 Speaker 1: faith from its alleged leaders. All I regretted was that 877 00:50:14,280 --> 00:50:17,120 Speaker 1: people assumed I didn't believe in God. That's not the 878 00:50:17,200 --> 00:50:20,480 Speaker 1: case at all. I'm Catholic by birth and culture and 879 00:50:20,520 --> 00:50:22,239 Speaker 1: would be the first at the church door if the 880 00:50:22,320 --> 00:50:29,239 Speaker 1: Vatican offered sincere reconciliation, and like that makes sense that 881 00:50:29,239 --> 00:50:31,040 Speaker 1: that's like the one thing. She was like, ah shit. 882 00:50:31,120 --> 00:50:33,560 Speaker 1: People thought it was like I hate God thing, you know, 883 00:50:33,840 --> 00:50:35,160 Speaker 1: so it'd be like, no, I hate the Pope. It 884 00:50:35,160 --> 00:50:39,399 Speaker 1: was a picture of the Pope that was you know, right, well, right, 885 00:50:39,440 --> 00:50:41,440 Speaker 1: I guess this idea that tearing up a picture of 886 00:50:41,440 --> 00:50:44,279 Speaker 1: the Pope. I feel like still in the like I 887 00:50:44,320 --> 00:50:47,000 Speaker 1: feel like still in the Mark McGrath presentation of it's 888 00:50:47,040 --> 00:50:51,520 Speaker 1: the idea that it's somehow like sacrilegious, dangerous, right vaguely satanic, 889 00:50:51,560 --> 00:50:53,880 Speaker 1: and it's like the Pope is a guy. Yeah, just 890 00:50:54,000 --> 00:50:56,280 Speaker 1: a guy. Yeah, you know, totally. 891 00:50:56,400 --> 00:50:57,600 Speaker 2: Yeah. 892 00:50:57,719 --> 00:50:59,640 Speaker 1: So Shineida Connor didn't live as long as she could have. 893 00:51:00,280 --> 00:51:02,680 Speaker 1: She died in July twenty twenty three at fifty six 894 00:51:02,800 --> 00:51:07,319 Speaker 1: years old, but she lived fully and like, yeah, she 895 00:51:07,400 --> 00:51:10,799 Speaker 1: was married four times. She had four children, not necessarily 896 00:51:10,800 --> 00:51:15,040 Speaker 1: with those it doesn't line up smoothly. She released like 897 00:51:15,080 --> 00:51:17,960 Speaker 1: ten albums. She continued to tour and continued to fight 898 00:51:18,040 --> 00:51:20,640 Speaker 1: for basically everything work, fighting for work with basically every 899 00:51:20,719 --> 00:51:24,080 Speaker 1: musician with enough integrity to have her. And then some 900 00:51:24,120 --> 00:51:27,759 Speaker 1: of my favorite stories that came out was that at 901 00:51:27,760 --> 00:51:29,640 Speaker 1: one point, after she gained some weight, she called up 902 00:51:29,640 --> 00:51:31,839 Speaker 1: a trans charity and was like, Hey, I've got all 903 00:51:31,880 --> 00:51:33,879 Speaker 1: these clothes that some trans girl might need that don't 904 00:51:33,920 --> 00:51:38,560 Speaker 1: fit me anymore. Do you want them? And another trans 905 00:51:38,640 --> 00:51:43,600 Speaker 1: charity she called and anonymously donated all over makeup. So 906 00:51:45,000 --> 00:51:47,920 Speaker 1: just fucking on the right side of everything. Yeah, she 907 00:51:48,080 --> 00:51:52,200 Speaker 1: wrote three different popes to request excommunication from the church. 908 00:51:54,120 --> 00:51:56,920 Speaker 1: For a while, she joined an independent Catholic organization that 909 00:51:56,920 --> 00:51:59,520 Speaker 1: had no loyalty to the Roman Catholic Church, and then 910 00:51:59,560 --> 00:52:02,560 Speaker 1: in twenty eighteen, she converted to Sunni Islam with a 911 00:52:02,680 --> 00:52:06,200 Speaker 1: ceremony performed buying a mom named Umar Al Khadri, who 912 00:52:06,320 --> 00:52:09,840 Speaker 1: champions abortion access in Ireland and organizes Muslims to protect 913 00:52:10,320 --> 00:52:14,560 Speaker 1: protest isis Just in case anyone was like, ah, she 914 00:52:14,960 --> 00:52:18,840 Speaker 1: in case some Islamophobia makes people think that, well, hopefully 915 00:52:18,840 --> 00:52:21,200 Speaker 1: anyone who just listened to this episode doesn't think that 916 00:52:21,719 --> 00:52:32,800 Speaker 1: Islam is inherently more conservative than any other religion. But yeah, okay, 917 00:52:32,800 --> 00:52:34,759 Speaker 1: any last thoughts on Shinead O'Connor before I get to 918 00:52:34,760 --> 00:52:39,600 Speaker 1: the last topic. Yeah, I mean, I guess I am. 919 00:52:41,680 --> 00:52:42,279 Speaker 1: I love her. 920 00:52:42,800 --> 00:52:46,959 Speaker 2: I feel like we as a society generally punish people 921 00:52:47,000 --> 00:52:50,400 Speaker 2: who tell the truth pretty harshly, especially if they are 922 00:52:50,400 --> 00:52:53,800 Speaker 2: among the first to try and do it. And yeah, 923 00:52:54,200 --> 00:52:56,880 Speaker 2: I just hope that we can take better care of 924 00:52:58,800 --> 00:53:03,680 Speaker 2: souls like her. Yeah, and I'm sure people listening have 925 00:53:03,760 --> 00:53:08,080 Speaker 2: the power to help do that totally. 926 00:53:08,800 --> 00:53:14,200 Speaker 1: And when you hear a bandwagon attacking someone about some nonsense, 927 00:53:15,320 --> 00:53:23,560 Speaker 1: it's not a good bandwagon totally. Yeah. So one final 928 00:53:23,840 --> 00:53:28,439 Speaker 1: thought about Irish folks fighting against the theocracy, and it's 929 00:53:28,480 --> 00:53:31,239 Speaker 1: one that people in the US should probably take particular 930 00:53:31,280 --> 00:53:35,400 Speaker 1: note of. Right now. Abortion state illegal in Ireland for 931 00:53:35,400 --> 00:53:40,440 Speaker 1: almost a century after independence, with limited abortion services legalized 932 00:53:40,440 --> 00:53:45,919 Speaker 1: in twenty nineteen. Well okay, like really limited a little 933 00:53:45,960 --> 00:53:48,319 Speaker 1: bit before that, but currently abortion up to the twelve 934 00:53:48,360 --> 00:53:52,680 Speaker 1: weeks is legal in the Republic of Ireland, which brings 935 00:53:52,719 --> 00:53:54,680 Speaker 1: us to our final cool people, I want to shout 936 00:53:54,680 --> 00:53:57,880 Speaker 1: out on the show all of the groups that organized 937 00:53:57,880 --> 00:54:01,120 Speaker 1: to help thousands of Irish people travel to to have 938 00:54:01,160 --> 00:54:05,760 Speaker 1: the ability to control their own bodies, and between nineteen 939 00:54:05,800 --> 00:54:09,279 Speaker 1: sixty eight and two thousand and eight, an estimated is 940 00:54:09,320 --> 00:54:11,040 Speaker 1: the same number I apparently I don't know how to read. 941 00:54:11,120 --> 00:54:14,040 Speaker 1: One hundred and fifty thousand people from the Republic of 942 00:54:14,040 --> 00:54:17,400 Speaker 1: Ireland and fifty three thousand people from Northern Ireland traveled 943 00:54:17,400 --> 00:54:19,959 Speaker 1: to England and Wales to be able to express bodyly 944 00:54:20,000 --> 00:54:24,920 Speaker 1: autonomy and have access to abortion services. And the people 945 00:54:24,920 --> 00:54:28,240 Speaker 1: who did that, who helped them get there, by and large, 946 00:54:28,520 --> 00:54:33,080 Speaker 1: were Irish feminists in exile. Because how bad do you 947 00:54:33,120 --> 00:54:36,719 Speaker 1: have to fuck up? As a recently free colony that 948 00:54:36,760 --> 00:54:39,560 Speaker 1: people seeking in freedom have to go to the fucking 949 00:54:39,760 --> 00:54:44,040 Speaker 1: country that you just had to break up with God. Yeah, 950 00:54:44,040 --> 00:54:47,920 Speaker 1: it's really embarrassing, isn't it. Yeah, And there's this like 951 00:54:47,960 --> 00:54:50,279 Speaker 1: people get like matt at Nat O'Connor because like she 952 00:54:50,360 --> 00:54:54,719 Speaker 1: Nad O'Connor always supported Irish independence and Irish unification. She 953 00:54:54,840 --> 00:54:59,080 Speaker 1: wasn't like, hooray the IRA during the troubles, was like 954 00:54:59,120 --> 00:55:03,200 Speaker 1: always the good guys, right, m but that's fair, that's 955 00:55:03,200 --> 00:55:06,680 Speaker 1: probably the position I take. But at one point. 956 00:55:06,440 --> 00:55:09,520 Speaker 2: It's hard to find a good guy in an ongoing 957 00:55:09,560 --> 00:55:11,080 Speaker 2: civil war at a certain point. 958 00:55:11,280 --> 00:55:13,719 Speaker 1: Yeah, and there's like people, I'm still going to be 959 00:55:13,760 --> 00:55:19,560 Speaker 1: like overall, I'm more on this side, right, But at 960 00:55:19,640 --> 00:55:24,279 Speaker 1: one point she made a statement that was like it 961 00:55:24,320 --> 00:55:27,280 Speaker 1: would be better for Ireland to have stayed with England 962 00:55:27,400 --> 00:55:31,120 Speaker 1: than to become the theocracy it became. And I'm paraphrasing, 963 00:55:32,000 --> 00:55:35,319 Speaker 1: and people were like, oh, she hates Irish independence. Like 964 00:55:35,400 --> 00:55:38,600 Speaker 1: she has been very consistent that she is pro Irish independence. 965 00:55:38,760 --> 00:55:42,120 Speaker 1: She is making a point about how Ireland didn't become free, 966 00:55:42,280 --> 00:55:48,719 Speaker 1: it became pawns of the Catholic Church anyway. So you've 967 00:55:48,760 --> 00:55:51,200 Speaker 1: got the Irish Women's Support Group which was founded in 968 00:55:51,200 --> 00:55:54,200 Speaker 1: the early nineteen eighties, and they sent funds. They met 969 00:55:54,200 --> 00:55:58,200 Speaker 1: women at airports and escorted them to clinics. The code 970 00:55:58,239 --> 00:56:00,239 Speaker 1: name is you'd call a number in England and ask 971 00:56:00,320 --> 00:56:04,440 Speaker 1: for Amelda, which is the kind of like the Jane Collective, 972 00:56:04,440 --> 00:56:06,680 Speaker 1: which was an underground abortion clinic in Chicago and the 973 00:56:07,520 --> 00:56:10,160 Speaker 1: night late nineteen sixties, early seventies. You'd like call and 974 00:56:10,200 --> 00:56:12,719 Speaker 1: ask for Jane. Basically this is the same thing. You 975 00:56:12,800 --> 00:56:16,040 Speaker 1: call and ask for Amelda, and the Ameldas would show 976 00:56:16,120 --> 00:56:17,480 Speaker 1: up and meet you at the airport and they would 977 00:56:17,480 --> 00:56:19,920 Speaker 1: wear red skirts so that they knew that the folks 978 00:56:19,960 --> 00:56:23,960 Speaker 1: coming from Ireland could recognize them, and they would like 979 00:56:25,719 --> 00:56:28,320 Speaker 1: you'd stay with them. They'd come with you to the clinic. 980 00:56:28,400 --> 00:56:30,200 Speaker 1: They'd just like help take care of everything, and if 981 00:56:30,239 --> 00:56:31,880 Speaker 1: you didn't have enough money for the abortion, they'd give 982 00:56:31,920 --> 00:56:34,719 Speaker 1: you enough money for the abortion. And they raised the 983 00:56:34,760 --> 00:56:39,120 Speaker 1: money by what they call the usual ways quote letters 984 00:56:39,120 --> 00:56:43,720 Speaker 1: to charities, begging letters to the rich. Among us sponsored swims, 985 00:56:43,800 --> 00:56:48,120 Speaker 1: walks and benefits. What are the swims like? I don't know, 986 00:56:48,160 --> 00:56:50,240 Speaker 1: and I'm really annoyed because I ran across two different 987 00:56:50,280 --> 00:56:52,840 Speaker 1: references that were just like, oh, you know, like a 988 00:56:52,920 --> 00:56:56,480 Speaker 1: charity swim and I'm like, is that a thing? 989 00:56:56,920 --> 00:56:59,759 Speaker 2: Let's do more charity swimming in this country. That sounds great. 990 00:57:00,080 --> 00:57:01,600 Speaker 2: One has to swim more as it is. 991 00:57:01,840 --> 00:57:05,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's true, Yeah, all right, all right, if you're 992 00:57:05,640 --> 00:57:12,319 Speaker 1: listening to this, start a charity swim for anything. MACES 993 00:57:12,600 --> 00:57:18,600 Speaker 1: for people who need access to abortions. Maybe abortion access 994 00:57:18,600 --> 00:57:20,320 Speaker 1: for the people who need access to abortions. But if 995 00:57:20,320 --> 00:57:25,880 Speaker 1: things get bad enough, maces and then not everyone in 996 00:57:26,880 --> 00:57:30,000 Speaker 1: the Irish. The Irish Women' Support Group was in England. 997 00:57:30,200 --> 00:57:32,120 Speaker 1: A lot of them, the auxiliaries were in Ireland and 998 00:57:32,160 --> 00:57:34,240 Speaker 1: they would pass out information about how to get abortion 999 00:57:34,320 --> 00:57:37,000 Speaker 1: access on the other island, and they'd put up stickers 1000 00:57:37,000 --> 00:57:40,120 Speaker 1: in all the public bathrooms everywhere. And they started doing 1001 00:57:40,120 --> 00:57:43,000 Speaker 1: this one. This was hella illegal for like a decade 1002 00:57:43,120 --> 00:57:45,640 Speaker 1: or more. They were running around passing out pamphlets about 1003 00:57:45,640 --> 00:57:49,000 Speaker 1: how you can access to abortion services, which was crazy illegal. 1004 00:57:50,040 --> 00:57:52,560 Speaker 1: In nineteen ninety five, it became legal to tell people 1005 00:57:52,560 --> 00:57:55,320 Speaker 1: about abortion access in other countries. Basically around the turn 1006 00:57:55,360 --> 00:57:57,600 Speaker 1: of the millennia, you have this slow move away where 1007 00:57:57,600 --> 00:58:00,200 Speaker 1: people are like, wait, what if we were, if we 1008 00:58:00,200 --> 00:58:02,360 Speaker 1: were a proper country, will remain our own laws instead 1009 00:58:02,400 --> 00:58:06,760 Speaker 1: of just listening to the church. Because in twenty eighteen, 1010 00:58:07,320 --> 00:58:11,720 Speaker 1: the Irish people voted overwhelmingly to overturn their eighth Amendment, 1011 00:58:11,800 --> 00:58:15,040 Speaker 1: which banned abortion. It's still not great. It's hard to 1012 00:58:15,080 --> 00:58:18,520 Speaker 1: get an abortion after twelve weeks, but it is better 1013 00:58:18,720 --> 00:58:22,120 Speaker 1: than what twenty five million women in the US live 1014 00:58:22,200 --> 00:58:24,720 Speaker 1: with acts because twenty five million in the US live 1015 00:58:24,840 --> 00:58:31,160 Speaker 1: in states without access to abortion services. Because this is 1016 00:58:31,160 --> 00:58:34,040 Speaker 1: my fun, not cheery, but hopefully we can Okay. My 1017 00:58:34,160 --> 00:58:36,840 Speaker 1: note I'm ending on is that theocracy is on the 1018 00:58:36,880 --> 00:58:38,800 Speaker 1: rise in the US, and it is not the Catholic 1019 00:58:38,920 --> 00:58:42,520 Speaker 1: Church this time. It is evangelical Christian like Christian nationalists. 1020 00:58:43,600 --> 00:58:46,560 Speaker 1: And this is a decentralized enemy, which in some ways 1021 00:58:46,560 --> 00:58:50,160 Speaker 1: is harder to confront, but confront it we will, and 1022 00:58:50,200 --> 00:58:55,040 Speaker 1: we're going to win. Yeah, we are, huh, especially if 1023 00:58:55,040 --> 00:59:04,280 Speaker 1: everyone has maces crucial. That's that's my Uh. Cool people 1024 00:59:04,320 --> 00:59:05,840 Speaker 1: who fought theocracy. 1025 00:59:06,960 --> 00:59:10,080 Speaker 3: So what's an interesting one thinks it's beautiful. A lot 1026 00:59:10,240 --> 00:59:12,720 Speaker 3: a lot of bad shit, but a lot of cool 1027 00:59:12,720 --> 00:59:13,240 Speaker 3: shit too. 1028 00:59:13,920 --> 00:59:16,360 Speaker 1: Yeah. I like about halfway through, I was like, oh 1029 00:59:16,440 --> 00:59:18,480 Speaker 1: my god, I really this is not usually the direction 1030 00:59:18,520 --> 00:59:20,960 Speaker 1: I try and take things. But it's like when I 1031 00:59:21,000 --> 00:59:23,000 Speaker 1: do an episode about like people breaking out of prison, 1032 00:59:23,280 --> 00:59:26,120 Speaker 1: I can just be like prison, prison's bad, and people 1033 00:59:26,160 --> 00:59:28,600 Speaker 1: are like, yeah, prison sucks. You're like in jail, right, 1034 00:59:30,800 --> 00:59:32,160 Speaker 1: And so I feel like when I want to talk 1035 00:59:32,200 --> 00:59:35,760 Speaker 1: about people thirty people escaping out down a ladder, you 1036 00:59:35,800 --> 00:59:39,560 Speaker 1: know in Galway and Shinead O'Connor ripping up a letter 1037 00:59:39,560 --> 00:59:40,800 Speaker 1: to the Pope, I don't want people to just be 1038 00:59:40,840 --> 00:59:42,600 Speaker 1: like yeah, like I mean, like Pope sucks. He like 1039 00:59:42,600 --> 00:59:44,520 Speaker 1: tells peop what to do. That like sucks. What if 1040 00:59:44,520 --> 00:59:46,680 Speaker 1: we were like free and cool and Nikasius or whatever, 1041 00:59:46,760 --> 00:59:50,920 Speaker 1: you know, And like I feel like it's like the 1042 00:59:51,000 --> 00:59:53,960 Speaker 1: context was darker than usual. That's all I'm gonna say. 1043 00:59:55,840 --> 00:59:56,120 Speaker 3: It was. 1044 00:59:56,200 --> 00:59:58,720 Speaker 2: But I that felt I don't know, I felt genuine 1045 00:59:58,880 --> 01:00:02,640 Speaker 2: hope and excitement and determination at the end. So there 1046 01:00:02,680 --> 01:00:06,800 Speaker 2: you go, oh good, yeah, because it's it's nice to 1047 01:00:06,840 --> 01:00:11,400 Speaker 2: be told, you know, hey, this is what things get to. Yeah. 1048 01:00:11,480 --> 01:00:15,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, Sare you have anything you'd like to uh mentioned 1049 01:00:15,160 --> 01:00:15,840 Speaker 3: here at the end? 1050 01:00:16,560 --> 01:00:21,480 Speaker 2: Hmmm. If it's warm where you are, try chopping up 1051 01:00:21,520 --> 01:00:23,920 Speaker 2: a watermelon and putting it in the blender and then 1052 01:00:23,920 --> 01:00:27,120 Speaker 2: you can drink that or maybe mix it with some vodka. 1053 01:00:27,960 --> 01:00:29,959 Speaker 2: It's perfect watermelon drink. 1054 01:00:30,240 --> 01:00:36,640 Speaker 3: Watermelon's the best Magpie. Anything you got tofu? 1055 01:00:37,480 --> 01:00:39,640 Speaker 1: I like tofu. You gotta put it in the press 1056 01:00:39,640 --> 01:00:41,640 Speaker 1: first if you're gonna if you're gonna store a fry tofu. 1057 01:00:41,760 --> 01:00:43,520 Speaker 1: If you think you hate tofu. I used to hate tofu, 1058 01:00:44,320 --> 01:00:46,480 Speaker 1: but it has to be seasoned and you have to 1059 01:00:46,480 --> 01:00:49,840 Speaker 1: cook it right. But once you know, and it's like 1060 01:00:49,960 --> 01:00:54,320 Speaker 1: all you want. I used to know someone with tofu 1061 01:00:54,360 --> 01:00:57,080 Speaker 1: time tattooed on their knuckles. If you're listening, I like 1062 01:00:57,120 --> 01:01:04,240 Speaker 1: your tattoo. I love tofu too. An I'm on substack 1063 01:01:04,360 --> 01:01:08,160 Speaker 1: and you can google me. Hell yeah, what you got? 1064 01:01:09,120 --> 01:01:10,720 Speaker 1: Sophie Lickterman food? 1065 01:01:11,160 --> 01:01:13,400 Speaker 3: I would like to plug Magpie? What food am I 1066 01:01:13,400 --> 01:01:15,480 Speaker 3: going to plug? What food am I going to plug? That? 1067 01:01:15,520 --> 01:01:16,320 Speaker 2: I love so much? 1068 01:01:16,560 --> 01:01:18,280 Speaker 1: Oh? But I don't know how to pronounce it. I 1069 01:01:18,320 --> 01:01:19,600 Speaker 1: don't want to mispronounce it on there. 1070 01:01:21,960 --> 01:01:24,760 Speaker 3: I'm gonna plug asa E bowls because I think they're 1071 01:01:24,960 --> 01:01:32,160 Speaker 3: awesome and refreshing and delicious and are usually vegan and 1072 01:01:32,240 --> 01:01:35,720 Speaker 3: gluten free, which is nice for people that I either 1073 01:01:35,760 --> 01:01:40,479 Speaker 3: have food allergies and are usually dairy free, also nice 1074 01:01:40,480 --> 01:01:43,520 Speaker 3: for all, nice for All's what I'm saying yeah. And 1075 01:01:43,560 --> 01:01:47,080 Speaker 3: then I would like to plug my dog Anderson, whose 1076 01:01:47,120 --> 01:01:49,360 Speaker 3: photos I post on social media. You know where to 1077 01:01:49,400 --> 01:01:50,880 Speaker 3: find me. She's cute. 1078 01:01:52,080 --> 01:01:56,720 Speaker 1: See you next week. Bye bye. 1079 01:01:57,680 --> 01:02:00,160 Speaker 3: Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff is a production of 1080 01:02:00,200 --> 01:02:03,280 Speaker 3: cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, 1081 01:02:03,440 --> 01:02:06,640 Speaker 3: visit our website coolzonmedia dot com, or check us out 1082 01:02:06,800 --> 01:02:10,160 Speaker 3: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get 1083 01:02:10,200 --> 01:02:11,000 Speaker 3: your podcasts.