WEBVTT - Breadcrumbs 0:00:02.279 --> 0:00:04.600 A member of the Wagner family, was back in the 0:00:04.600 --> 0:00:08.520 Pike County Courthouse today. His attorneys argued, George Wagner, the 0:00:08.600 --> 0:00:11.720 fourth did not shoot and kill any of the Rodent 0:00:11.800 --> 0:00:14.880 family members. Judge, in our motion, we have asked the 0:00:14.920 --> 0:00:19.239 court to Dismisscounts one through eight and or the accompanying 0:00:19.520 --> 0:00:23.480 death specifications which make this case a death penalty. As 0:00:23.480 --> 0:00:26.520 part of the pleadio Jake Wagner reached with prosecutors neither 0:00:26.600 --> 0:00:28.840 he nor his brother or their parents will face the 0:00:28.840 --> 0:00:33.199 death penalty as long as Jake testifies in court. George 0:00:33.360 --> 0:00:36.480 did not shoot or kill anybody. He did not pull 0:00:36.479 --> 0:00:40.720 a trigger once. Jake, on the other hand, has admitted 0:00:41.000 --> 0:00:45.280 to killing at least five people personally and shooting a sixth. 0:00:46.159 --> 0:00:49.520 Special Prosecutor Angie Kneppa argued the murder charges and death 0:00:49.520 --> 0:00:54.120 penalty specifications against George Wagner should remain until Jake Wagner 0:00:54.160 --> 0:00:57.840 testifies on the record in a courtroom. Surviving members of 0:00:57.840 --> 0:01:00.880 the Rodent family anxiously await for a search to close 0:01:00.920 --> 0:01:04.039 the case, but won't ever erase the heartache they feel. 0:01:09.680 --> 0:01:13.960 This is the piped In Massacre season three, episode seven, 0:01:14.400 --> 0:01:19.760 Breadcrumbs Courtney Armstrong, a television producer at Katie's Studios, with 0:01:19.800 --> 0:01:23.880 Stephanie Ledecker and Jeff Shane. In this episode, we follow 0:01:23.959 --> 0:01:28.240 the trail of breadcrumbs left behind during these hearings. Some 0:01:28.280 --> 0:01:30.959 of them lead into very dark corners that may only 0:01:31.000 --> 0:01:35.360 be fully illuminated once the trial begins. And no issue 0:01:35.360 --> 0:01:38.000 has cast a larger shadow over the case than what 0:01:38.120 --> 0:01:42.360 Angela and Jake's testimony may reveal about George and Billy's involvement. 0:01:44.800 --> 0:01:47.240 The state has made a bargain with the shooter of 0:01:47.400 --> 0:01:49.680 at least five people to kill her at at least 0:01:49.680 --> 0:01:52.600 five people in this case, then we believe it's own 0:01:52.600 --> 0:01:56.400 constitutional improper and abuse are to pursue the death tony 0:01:56.440 --> 0:02:00.800 against George. When they admitted he didn't shoot anybody. You're 0:02:00.880 --> 0:02:04.880 not stipulating that George did not shoot anybody because you 0:02:04.920 --> 0:02:08.840 don't know that. We are simply stipulating, in sporting proper 0:02:09.480 --> 0:02:14.359 George did not shoot anybody. Maybe that's supports distinction. Now, 0:02:14.440 --> 0:02:17.520 Judge Deering ended up denying the defense motion filed by 0:02:17.760 --> 0:02:21.120 George Wagner's attorney. Now, we also learned that all four 0:02:21.200 --> 0:02:24.040 of the suspects were offered the same chance to negotiate 0:02:24.080 --> 0:02:27.280 a deal if they agreed to tell prosecutors what happened 0:02:27.520 --> 0:02:30.959 the night the Rodent family members were killed. These murders 0:02:30.960 --> 0:02:34.720 in Pike County, Ohio. It's not something they just entered into, 0:02:35.040 --> 0:02:36.880 you know. They're not just you know, sitting around with 0:02:36.880 --> 0:02:38.480 a few cans of beer oup and say let's go 0:02:38.600 --> 0:02:41.960 slaughter to Rodents. That's not what happened. This took planning. 0:02:42.360 --> 0:02:45.840 You're talking about the murder of eight other human beings. 0:02:46.360 --> 0:02:51.120 They're gonna go into quite graphic detail about, first off, 0:02:51.400 --> 0:02:54.840 the kids being locked up in this house with the 0:02:54.880 --> 0:02:59.760 deceased remains of their parents. They're going to talk about 0:03:00.120 --> 0:03:02.840 the bloodstains that were on the children. They're going to 0:03:02.919 --> 0:03:06.080 talk about how their children were weeping and crying. It's 0:03:06.120 --> 0:03:09.960 going to be incredibly impactful. It'll be like getting hit 0:03:10.040 --> 0:03:13.720 in the chest with a ten pound slash ner. You're 0:03:13.760 --> 0:03:17.160 not going to have a totality of the execution of 0:03:17.160 --> 0:03:19.640 this agreement until they get up on the stand and 0:03:19.760 --> 0:03:22.960 they do what they say that they were going to do, 0:03:23.320 --> 0:03:27.320 you know, and absent that, then it's a game changer. 0:03:27.919 --> 0:03:32.520 Defense attorney, former prosecutor, judge and Fox nineteen Legal analyst 0:03:32.639 --> 0:03:36.320 Mike Allen has been following the Keys closely. We asked 0:03:36.360 --> 0:03:39.280 them about Angela and Jake's proffers and if their testimonies 0:03:39.320 --> 0:03:42.560 need to line up closely with the prosecutions, investigative and 0:03:42.640 --> 0:03:48.240 forensic findings. The answer to that is yes. I mean, 0:03:48.640 --> 0:03:52.160 if there's what they call a proper made by a defendant, 0:03:52.600 --> 0:03:55.160 where the defendant will say, well, this is what I 0:03:55.160 --> 0:03:59.640 would testify to, it's got to line up, not a 0:04:00.000 --> 0:04:03.480 resolutely perfectly, but generally it's got to line up with 0:04:03.520 --> 0:04:08.880 what the prosecutions. They're probably meeting with Angela and Jake regularly. 0:04:09.160 --> 0:04:11.200 You don't want to screw this up. You don't want 0:04:11.200 --> 0:04:14.200 to make some kind of comment to somebody, anybody that 0:04:14.280 --> 0:04:17.120 you're in jail with, even the prison staff, that you're 0:04:17.120 --> 0:04:19.479 coming in contact with him in daily basis, anything that 0:04:19.520 --> 0:04:22.720 could hamper this trial. They want to keep this thing 0:04:22.760 --> 0:04:26.240 as pristine as they possibly can. Going into what are 0:04:26.240 --> 0:04:29.359 the prosecution's going to do with George and Billy, here's 0:04:29.400 --> 0:04:33.920 producer Chris Graves speaking with forensic death investigator Joseph Scott Morgan. 0:04:34.960 --> 0:04:39.839 If those proffers are to be believed, it would seem 0:04:39.960 --> 0:04:43.480 that Billy did the other three. Yeah, yeah, it would 0:04:43.480 --> 0:04:47.800 seem that and Jake admitted to these killings if he 0:04:47.880 --> 0:04:51.000 facilitated the deaths of five people, which he's admitted to, 0:04:51.400 --> 0:04:54.000 and we still have three that are unaccounted for it, 0:04:54.279 --> 0:04:56.680 and I think Money's own Billy at this point in time, 0:04:56.760 --> 0:04:59.520 he's front runner. I think that the State's going to 0:04:59.560 --> 0:05:02.120 want their pound of flesh in this case because of 0:05:02.160 --> 0:05:06.279 everything that has happened relatively, all of the deception, all 0:05:06.320 --> 0:05:10.520 of this horror that has come down upon this little 0:05:10.720 --> 0:05:14.320 rural county in southern Ohio. I think the people of 0:05:14.360 --> 0:05:18.840 Ohio probably are going to demand it. The Rodent family 0:05:18.920 --> 0:05:22.919 case is going to be that case that eighty years 0:05:22.920 --> 0:05:24.719 from now, people are going to sit around campfire and 0:05:24.760 --> 0:05:30.760 tell stories about. Another motion, Motion seventy six, filed by 0:05:30.800 --> 0:05:34.240 the defense, deals with the admissibility of specific evidence and 0:05:34.400 --> 0:05:37.840 expert testimony that the prosecution hopes will seal the deal 0:05:38.080 --> 0:05:43.120 for convincing the jury of Georgia's involvement. The prosecution quickly 0:05:43.160 --> 0:05:46.120 filed a memorandum stating that their case for why the 0:05:46.160 --> 0:05:49.600 evidence should be admissible and why Motion seventy six should 0:05:49.640 --> 0:05:54.320 be struck down. Here's Chris Graves speaking with retired prosecutor 0:05:54.400 --> 0:06:01.599 and Flan again about the shoeprint evidence. For every motion 0:06:01.640 --> 0:06:05.040 at the defense file, there may be a response or 0:06:05.240 --> 0:06:08.120 there may be another motion filed by the state that 0:06:08.279 --> 0:06:12.440 seeks something. And in those motions at times that you 0:06:12.520 --> 0:06:15.800 will glean some additional facts that maybe you have not 0:06:15.960 --> 0:06:20.200 heard from other sources. It's like finding little breadcrumbs to 0:06:20.320 --> 0:06:24.080 this puzzle we've all been trying to figure out. We 0:06:24.200 --> 0:06:26.279 took this new evidence and compared it to some of 0:06:26.279 --> 0:06:30.480 the facts already known in the case. Here's Stephanie and Jeff. 0:06:30.880 --> 0:06:34.400 This is the relevant factual background in the memorandum. Eight 0:06:34.440 --> 0:06:37.120 members of the Rodent family were murdered in their homes 0:06:37.200 --> 0:06:40.920 on the night of April twenty twenty sixteen. Investigators located 0:06:40.960 --> 0:06:44.640 shoeprints at two properties four oh seven seven Union Hill 0:06:44.760 --> 0:06:47.840 Road and three one two two Union Hill Road. These 0:06:47.880 --> 0:06:51.919 shoe prints had pools of dried blood belonging to the victims. Okay, 0:06:51.960 --> 0:06:54.520 so let's dig into this just a little deeper. The 0:06:54.640 --> 0:06:57.560 locations where these prints were found were at the homes 0:06:57.600 --> 0:07:01.680 of Chris Roden Senior and then Dana Rodin. We've been 0:07:01.680 --> 0:07:05.400 to this location and their running distance from each other. 0:07:05.800 --> 0:07:08.839 When we visited piked In, we actually did the drive 0:07:09.240 --> 0:07:12.680 of Union Hill Road to map out the different crime scenes. 0:07:13.400 --> 0:07:16.080 Union Hill Road lies about twenty minutes west of downtown 0:07:16.200 --> 0:07:19.520 piked In off of Route thirty two. You exit the highways, 0:07:19.520 --> 0:07:22.040 then double back and head into a patchwork of forests 0:07:22.040 --> 0:07:24.760 and fields, and about half a mile up the road 0:07:24.920 --> 0:07:27.480 on the right is when you first see three one 0:07:27.520 --> 0:07:30.400 two two Union Hill Road, the property that Chris road 0:07:30.480 --> 0:07:34.160 And Senior bought for Dana and the kids just months 0:07:34.200 --> 0:07:37.440 before the murders, and we talked about this. That's also 0:07:37.480 --> 0:07:41.920 the location where Hannah May Roden had her baby shower 0:07:42.120 --> 0:07:45.200 just leading up to the murders. So moving into this 0:07:45.280 --> 0:07:48.360 home was a really happy and exciting thing for Dana. 0:07:48.600 --> 0:07:51.040 Just down the road from that is four oh seven 0:07:51.160 --> 0:07:54.360 seven Union Hill Road, and that's where Chris Roden Senior 0:07:54.640 --> 0:07:57.040 was living and as we know, his cousin Gary was 0:07:57.080 --> 0:07:59.840 staying with him. This was a very brutal crime scene. 0:08:00.040 --> 0:08:03.720 Were pools of blood everywhere, and in these pools of blood, 0:08:04.000 --> 0:08:07.320 what police found were two shoeprints, one a size ten 0:08:07.360 --> 0:08:11.120 and a half and the other a size eleven. According 0:08:11.160 --> 0:08:14.680 to the report, a size eleven Walmart Athletic Works brand 0:08:14.760 --> 0:08:19.320 shoe left a print. Here's Joseph Scott Morgan. I went 0:08:19.400 --> 0:08:22.240 back and I thought that brand sounded familiar. And the 0:08:22.320 --> 0:08:24.720 reason it was familiar to me is that when my 0:08:24.840 --> 0:08:27.240 son Noah got one of his first jobs, it was 0:08:27.320 --> 0:08:29.520 at Chick fil A and they require you to wear 0:08:29.600 --> 0:08:33.400 those non slip shoes. We went to Walmart to buy 0:08:33.520 --> 0:08:35.560 him a pair, and that's what they were, and I 0:08:35.679 --> 0:08:40.440 just looked that up. They're primarily Athletic Works shoes. Their 0:08:40.520 --> 0:08:43.959 non slip souls is what they are. They're black in color, 0:08:44.000 --> 0:08:47.360 they kind of look like athletic shoes, and visiting their website, 0:08:47.400 --> 0:08:50.280 they go for like thirteen bucks a pair or something 0:08:50.320 --> 0:08:54.160 like that. It's something that's easily acquired. The size eleven 0:08:54.200 --> 0:08:57.320 shoe was actually found in both Christina and Data's home, 0:08:57.720 --> 0:09:01.720 which is extremely significant because there's been so much speculation 0:09:01.760 --> 0:09:05.680 about this. Did they divide up and each go to 0:09:05.760 --> 0:09:08.720 a different location or did they do it together, and 0:09:09.160 --> 0:09:13.839 that's what this evidence would imply. Yeah, to further knock 0:09:13.880 --> 0:09:16.240 point stuff. What they also found was that the size 0:09:16.280 --> 0:09:20.360 eleven shoe had a mix of multiple victims blood in it, 0:09:20.480 --> 0:09:23.600 which again speaks to your point that whoever was wearing 0:09:23.640 --> 0:09:28.760 that shoe went to multiple road in houses for Joseph Morgan. 0:09:29.040 --> 0:09:35.000 It brought to mind another infamous family massacre. I urge 0:09:35.080 --> 0:09:37.160 anybody that has never read In Cold Blood to go 0:09:37.200 --> 0:09:41.120 read this book, specifically because of the forensics. Capodi did 0:09:41.160 --> 0:09:44.440 such a fantastic job and given such a great description 0:09:44.440 --> 0:09:47.240 of this horrible scene where this family was absolutely butchered, 0:09:47.640 --> 0:09:50.360 not too dissimilar from what happened in Piked, and only 0:09:50.480 --> 0:09:53.280 happened in one single home in Kansas all those years back. 0:09:53.679 --> 0:09:56.360 They had one piece of evidence that really tied everything 0:09:56.400 --> 0:09:59.920 together that scene. In Cold Blood is a non fiction 0:10:00.160 --> 0:10:03.720 novel by author Truman Capote that was published in nineteen 0:10:03.800 --> 0:10:08.040 sixty six. It details the nineteen fifty nine murders of 0:10:08.080 --> 0:10:11.439 the Clutter family in small town, Kansas. And you might 0:10:11.440 --> 0:10:13.760 have read this book in high school or have heard 0:10:13.760 --> 0:10:15.800 of it. It's really one of the first true crime 0:10:15.880 --> 0:10:19.679 stories that people sank their teeth into, and I would 0:10:19.760 --> 0:10:24.920 surmise that any true crime TV series or podcast or 0:10:25.000 --> 0:10:28.800 documentary really should give some credit to this one, because 0:10:29.080 --> 0:10:30.960 without it, I don't think the genre would be what 0:10:31.000 --> 0:10:36.400 it is. There are actually a lot of parallels between 0:10:36.440 --> 0:10:39.200 the piked and massacre and the clutter of family murders 0:10:39.720 --> 0:10:44.320 one the family aspect. Also to the brutality three the 0:10:44.400 --> 0:10:46.920 victims being shot in the head, and just the sheer 0:10:46.920 --> 0:10:52.000 amount of bloodshed. It's chilling. For those of you who 0:10:52.000 --> 0:10:54.320 aren't familiar with the story, we'll give you a little 0:10:54.320 --> 0:10:56.480 bit of a top line about it. It all started 0:10:56.480 --> 0:10:58.680 in the fall of nineteen fifty nine when these two 0:10:59.000 --> 0:11:02.840 x cons named Perry Smith and Richard Hiccock drove across 0:11:02.920 --> 0:11:05.000 Kansas on a tip they had received from one of 0:11:05.000 --> 0:11:07.280 their fellow inmates when they were in jail. While the 0:11:07.360 --> 0:11:09.040 duel was still in jail, they met a man nam 0:11:09.040 --> 0:11:11.840 Floyd Wells, who had claimed to them he had once 0:11:11.880 --> 0:11:14.760 worked as a farmhand for a man named Herb Clutter, who, 0:11:14.760 --> 0:11:17.600 according to Floyd, had kept thousands of dollars in a 0:11:17.640 --> 0:11:21.080 safe in his basement. And that is all that Smith 0:11:21.120 --> 0:11:24.280 and Hiccock needed to hear, And eventually, when they got 0:11:24.280 --> 0:11:27.040 out of jail, they drove four hundred miles to the 0:11:27.040 --> 0:11:30.400 Clutter residence and snuck into the house as the family 0:11:30.480 --> 0:11:33.880 was sleeping. They started by tying up mister and Missus 0:11:33.880 --> 0:11:37.600 Clutter and their two teenage children, Kenyon and Bonnie. It's 0:11:37.640 --> 0:11:42.680 every parent's worst nightmare. I can't help being reminded of 0:11:42.720 --> 0:11:45.480 what the Rodent family must have been feeling the night 0:11:45.520 --> 0:11:48.200 that they were murdered, thinking about them in their homes 0:11:48.280 --> 0:11:50.640 and having a loud, banging sound and all of a sudden, 0:11:50.640 --> 0:11:52.800 there's gun in your face. And it turns out there 0:11:52.840 --> 0:11:55.280 actually was not a safe. It was a total lie. 0:11:55.400 --> 0:11:58.440 Or her rumor and Hiccoc, who had a very short temper, 0:11:58.920 --> 0:12:01.800 flew into a raid. And it's so sad because they 0:12:01.880 --> 0:12:05.960 must have decided beforehand that they wouldn't lead any witnesses alive, 0:12:06.520 --> 0:12:08.719 so all they got away with was a radio in 0:12:08.880 --> 0:12:11.960 maybe fifty dollars, but still they decided they had to 0:12:12.040 --> 0:12:16.480 kill the entire family. Yeah, once they made this decision, 0:12:16.800 --> 0:12:18.920 they kind of went one by one to the family 0:12:19.000 --> 0:12:21.200 members who were in various points of the home. And 0:12:21.240 --> 0:12:23.800 they started with mister Clutter, who was bound and gagged 0:12:23.840 --> 0:12:26.520 on a box spring in the basement. Harry Smith slit 0:12:26.559 --> 0:12:29.160 his throat and then shot him in the head. They 0:12:29.200 --> 0:12:31.920 then went to the teenage son, Kenyon, who was bound 0:12:31.960 --> 0:12:34.319 in another part of the basement and shot him to death, 0:12:34.559 --> 0:12:37.319 and then they of course headed upstairs to kill mom 0:12:37.640 --> 0:12:42.520 Nancy Clutter, and sadly, after hearing both her parents and 0:12:42.600 --> 0:12:45.720 her brother being murdered, Bonnie Clutter was shot in the head. 0:12:46.280 --> 0:12:49.079 Her hands were tied in front of her, she was gagged, 0:12:49.280 --> 0:12:51.800 and get this, they actually tucked her into her bed. 0:12:53.400 --> 0:12:56.080 It's almost like they were trying to make her comfortable 0:12:56.600 --> 0:13:01.760 in the moments leading up to her murder. Another similarity 0:13:01.800 --> 0:13:03.880 to the road in case seems to be the sheer 0:13:04.120 --> 0:13:07.040 violence of all of this. To shoot someone and slip 0:13:07.120 --> 0:13:11.720 their throat is the definition of overkill. In the same 0:13:11.720 --> 0:13:14.240 way shooting members of the Rodan family multiple times in 0:13:14.240 --> 0:13:18.760 the face is just violence for violences sake. Something else 0:13:18.760 --> 0:13:20.760 that we should note that at some point in the night, 0:13:21.000 --> 0:13:23.760 Perry Smith stepped in mister Clutter's blood in the basement 0:13:23.760 --> 0:13:28.320 and left a partial footprint that again seems eerily similar 0:13:28.360 --> 0:13:32.520 to this footprint that we've been discussing in the Rodent homes. 0:13:34.080 --> 0:13:36.320 A lot of creepy stuff went on in this case. Anyway, 0:13:36.360 --> 0:13:39.520 He was executed down there, and Perry, who was one 0:13:39.520 --> 0:13:41.800 of the killers, was wearing a boot that had been 0:13:41.840 --> 0:13:45.160 resold in this boot. When you hear this name, this 0:13:45.760 --> 0:13:49.680 name in forensic parlance, it's a benchmark moment. It's called 0:13:49.679 --> 0:13:52.920 the cat Paul print. When he stepped on that box, 0:13:53.960 --> 0:13:59.320 he transferred a print to that box with his boot 0:14:00.040 --> 0:14:03.679 that had transferred from blood onto the surface, and it 0:14:03.840 --> 0:14:09.280 left that Cat Paul print. Perry Smith's boots were later recovered. 0:14:10.520 --> 0:14:16.120 Not so, and piked In the defense has struck gold here. Really, 0:14:16.840 --> 0:14:20.720 I think, so, what makes you think that, Well, guess 0:14:20.760 --> 0:14:25.440 what they found. They had Perry's boots in this case, 0:14:26.720 --> 0:14:29.280 they ain't got nothing and Piked and they don't have 0:14:29.320 --> 0:14:32.120 the shoes. They don't have that to compare to in 0:14:32.160 --> 0:14:35.840 the Clutter case they did. And I'm drawing these conclusions 0:14:35.840 --> 0:14:38.720 because I think, in my opinion at least, that this case, 0:14:39.120 --> 0:14:40.720 much like the Clutter case, is going to be a 0:14:40.720 --> 0:14:45.640 blood bath. The prosecution is betting that their footprint expert, 0:14:45.720 --> 0:14:48.920 William Bosniak, can tie the bloody prints back to the 0:14:48.920 --> 0:14:53.120 Wagners without having the actual footwear for his analysis. Bosniak 0:14:53.200 --> 0:14:56.480 bought the same Athletic Works model size and shoe at 0:14:56.520 --> 0:14:59.600 Walmart about a thousand miles away from piked In and 0:14:59.680 --> 0:15:03.120 his homestate of Florida. The defense is trying to raise 0:15:03.200 --> 0:15:06.520 doubt about the process by which Bosniak determined the match, 0:15:07.360 --> 0:15:11.080 as well as about Bosniak's actual qualifications as an expert. 0:15:12.000 --> 0:15:15.280 To do this, they've requested what's called a Daubard hearing 0:15:18.360 --> 0:15:22.680 here again and Flanagan Dalbert is just the name of 0:15:22.720 --> 0:15:26.680 a case where some guidelines were set forth by the 0:15:27.160 --> 0:15:30.600 US Supreme Court. And it was done with the idea 0:15:30.640 --> 0:15:34.720 that we don't want junk science going to a jury 0:15:35.280 --> 0:15:38.320 just because someone was declared an expert and said that 0:15:38.360 --> 0:15:41.520 this was his expert opinion. And so they gave some 0:15:41.680 --> 0:15:45.800 guidelines for attorneys and courts, and so some of the 0:15:45.840 --> 0:15:49.920 guidelines aren't what would be called Dalbert factors. Some of 0:15:49.920 --> 0:15:53.160 these factors include whether the theory or technique in question 0:15:53.440 --> 0:15:57.040 can be and has been tested, whether it has been 0:15:57.080 --> 0:16:01.360 subject to peer review and publication, known potential error rate, 0:16:02.120 --> 0:16:05.520 and whether it has attracted widespread acceptance within the forensic 0:16:05.600 --> 0:16:10.520 scientific community. Well, one of the attacks that the defense 0:16:10.600 --> 0:16:13.040 made is that this is not the shoe. The shoe 0:16:13.040 --> 0:16:16.280 that he compared to the print is a sample shoe 0:16:16.280 --> 0:16:18.400 that he bought later. They would want to do that 0:16:18.520 --> 0:16:24.520 because they see that as very damaging evidence. Understand, the 0:16:24.600 --> 0:16:28.760 defense's job is to exploit these small little issues along 0:16:28.760 --> 0:16:30.840 the way. They don't have to destroy the whole case. 0:16:31.840 --> 0:16:34.360 You know, when you start to talk about you know, well, 0:16:34.400 --> 0:16:37.440 they've given so much value to this piece of evidence, 0:16:37.440 --> 0:16:39.640 they're going to try to paint it that way. If 0:16:39.640 --> 0:16:43.800 this trial happens down there in southern Ohio and Appalachia, 0:16:44.160 --> 0:16:48.280 people that inhabit those regions, their ears perk up when 0:16:48.400 --> 0:16:51.000 they hear an accent from other places, or they see 0:16:51.040 --> 0:16:53.520 people that don't quite fit in. And all he has 0:16:53.560 --> 0:16:55.920 to do is say, you know, this s guy, he's 0:16:55.960 --> 0:16:57.760 with the Feds. Why the hell are you going to 0:16:57.800 --> 0:17:01.320 go outside of your own law enforcement Emily and the 0:17:01.360 --> 0:17:05.240 crime lab there in state, in contract with an outside 0:17:05.280 --> 0:17:10.520 expert in this particular case. Ultimately, Judge Daring ruled for 0:17:10.560 --> 0:17:14.520 the defense that the Dobbard hearing could go forward. Joseph 0:17:14.560 --> 0:17:17.119 Scott Morgan explains that if the judge rules in favor 0:17:17.160 --> 0:17:20.399 of the defense, a jury would never hear any of 0:17:20.400 --> 0:17:25.119 the evidence about the shoes. Defense is writtenes sing up 0:17:25.119 --> 0:17:29.480 to state that this gentleman is going to testify to 0:17:29.640 --> 0:17:33.320 size ten and a half and to size eleventh athletic 0:17:33.680 --> 0:17:38.119 works shoes. He's going to testify to those items and 0:17:38.119 --> 0:17:41.720 then he's marrying those up to the photographs of the 0:17:41.760 --> 0:17:47.199 shoe prints that's seen to these individuals. They're saying that 0:17:47.280 --> 0:17:51.040 this isn't going to hold water forensically, then we can 0:17:51.080 --> 0:17:55.199 conclude that perhaps that bit of evidence will be excluded. 0:17:55.600 --> 0:17:58.160 But listen, this is the defense. This is what they do. 0:18:01.560 --> 0:18:05.440 If I hire a defense attorney, I'm assuming that's their 0:18:05.560 --> 0:18:09.760 job to basically throw anything against the wall and hope 0:18:09.760 --> 0:18:12.040 that it sticks. I would imagine it's a little bit 0:18:12.040 --> 0:18:15.200 of an upful battle defending someone like George Wagner because 0:18:15.240 --> 0:18:18.120 there's a lot of evidence against him, and so the 0:18:18.119 --> 0:18:21.520 defense attorney is just trying to find ways around that 0:18:21.800 --> 0:18:25.800 and ways to cast reasonable doubt. Because with a jury, 0:18:26.000 --> 0:18:28.159 you don't need to prove that someone's innocent. All you 0:18:28.200 --> 0:18:30.640 need to do is poke enough holes in the prosecution 0:18:30.720 --> 0:18:33.639 story that there is a reasonable doubt that George Wagner 0:18:33.720 --> 0:18:37.080 did not murder eight people. We think it's important to 0:18:37.160 --> 0:18:40.640 go through the different pieces of evidence that the prosecution 0:18:40.960 --> 0:18:44.159 is allegedly putting forward because it really does play a 0:18:44.280 --> 0:18:47.320 huge part in this case. The first thing that we 0:18:47.400 --> 0:18:51.920 think seems very relevant is these shoe receipts. Now as 0:18:51.920 --> 0:18:54.600 a result of a search warrant executed on the vehicles 0:18:54.600 --> 0:18:58.040 and the trailers belonging to the Wagner family. Investigators located 0:18:58.119 --> 0:19:02.480 a Walmart receipt for a location in Waverley, Ohio. The 0:19:02.560 --> 0:19:05.240 data on the receipt is April seventh, twenty sixteen, which, 0:19:05.280 --> 0:19:07.120 as we know, is just a couple of weeks before 0:19:07.160 --> 0:19:10.160 the murders. The receipt was for two pairs of gray 0:19:10.359 --> 0:19:15.120 men's Walmart branded shoes with belcrow straps in sizes ten 0:19:15.160 --> 0:19:18.159 and a half and eleven. Officials were able to obtain 0:19:18.160 --> 0:19:21.840 and preserve surveillance photographs and receipts of all recent purchases 0:19:22.280 --> 0:19:25.119 of that model and those sizes of the shoe in 0:19:25.280 --> 0:19:29.120 numerous Walmart stores throughout southern Ohio. At some point, an 0:19:29.119 --> 0:19:33.520 expert review the photographs obtained from a Walmart in Waverley, Ohio, 0:19:34.080 --> 0:19:37.119 and it included still images of the customers who purchased 0:19:37.359 --> 0:19:41.200 athletic work shoes that day, and the customer purchasing those 0:19:41.200 --> 0:19:45.080 shoes in this particular surveillance shot is none other than 0:19:45.280 --> 0:19:50.040 Angela Wagner. They actually show her exiting the Waverley Walmart 0:19:50.240 --> 0:19:54.200 on April seventh, twenty sixteen, at approximately the exact same 0:19:54.240 --> 0:19:57.560 time on the receipt found on the Wagner property. And 0:19:57.640 --> 0:20:01.359 this day is so significant because, as you know, Hannah 0:20:01.359 --> 0:20:04.880 May Roden was having her baby shower at her new 0:20:04.920 --> 0:20:07.600 house where she lived with her mom, which we talked 0:20:07.600 --> 0:20:12.119 about earlier. It is pretty damning evidence, to say the least. 0:20:12.680 --> 0:20:16.639 We were told at some point that Angela Wagner chose 0:20:17.040 --> 0:20:20.640 those specific shoes for her boys to wear, because they 0:20:20.640 --> 0:20:26.040 were allegedly the exact same shoes that Dana Roden's brother 0:20:26.640 --> 0:20:30.640 wore to work. And it's been speculated that perhaps Angela 0:20:30.680 --> 0:20:36.119 Wagner was literally trying to set up Dana Roden's brother 0:20:36.320 --> 0:20:40.280 for these murders. I have a question, what do you 0:20:40.280 --> 0:20:43.000 think has more weight in the courtroom, the science and 0:20:43.080 --> 0:20:46.520 the facts of the case or Jake Wagner's version of events. Well, 0:20:46.520 --> 0:20:48.480 it all depends on what Jake has given them at 0:20:48.480 --> 0:20:51.240 this point. And Mama, from a forensic standpoint, I can't 0:20:51.240 --> 0:20:53.320 wait to see this. They've already shown their hand to 0:20:53.359 --> 0:20:55.560 a certain degree. They're saying, we're going after the forensic 0:20:55.600 --> 0:20:59.399 evidence right now. We know it's footwear. What else is 0:20:59.400 --> 0:21:02.160 on the table, or we're gonna talk about ballistics because 0:21:02.200 --> 0:21:04.560 that's the agency for bringing about death here. You know, 0:21:04.600 --> 0:21:08.480 we're talking about firing multiple rounds into all of these people. 0:21:14.240 --> 0:21:18.000 Reporter Angeanette Levy sees potential implications for George and Billy 0:21:18.040 --> 0:21:21.400 Wagner if the evidence is allowed. I just know from 0:21:21.400 --> 0:21:24.520 one of the hearings back in August of twenty twenty, 0:21:24.760 --> 0:21:27.919 they were saying, you have no evidence against George the 0:21:27.960 --> 0:21:31.159 fourth and the same with Billy. Billy's attorneys said in 0:21:31.240 --> 0:21:34.399 court documents, you have no evidence against our guy. There's 0:21:34.480 --> 0:21:37.000 nothing in the discovery that ties him to this. So 0:21:37.000 --> 0:21:38.640 when you look at it, if we're looking at shoe 0:21:38.640 --> 0:21:42.320 impression evidence, those could be things that maybe tie them 0:21:42.359 --> 0:21:44.679 to the crime scenes because we have that whole issue 0:21:44.720 --> 0:21:47.879 of the state saying and Angela Wagner at confirming that 0:21:48.000 --> 0:21:51.080 she purchased these shoes at Walmart for them to use. 0:21:51.640 --> 0:21:56.360 So those items could tie George and Billy to the crimes. 0:21:58.119 --> 0:22:00.840 Because the Dabbard hearing could affect both father and son, 0:22:01.040 --> 0:22:03.800 Judge Deerring raised the possibility that they both appear in 0:22:03.840 --> 0:22:06.959 court at the same time. I would think that's going 0:22:07.000 --> 0:22:10.520 to be potentially the most interesting thing to come out 0:22:10.520 --> 0:22:13.399 of the Daubard hearing. So you're going to have the 0:22:13.560 --> 0:22:20.080 singular hearing about the scientific evidence, and then it's going 0:22:20.119 --> 0:22:25.680 to be presented at two separate capital murder trials. We're 0:22:25.680 --> 0:22:28.080 going to take a break. We'll be back in a moment. 0:22:34.880 --> 0:22:38.159 Judge Deerring decided to have two separate Dabbard cases for 0:22:38.280 --> 0:22:42.080 George and Billy Wagner, avoiding a father son faced face 0:22:42.200 --> 0:22:45.200 for the first time since their arrests almost four years ago. 0:22:46.320 --> 0:22:52.720 Here's Joseph Morgan. What if they come to a conclusion, 0:22:52.920 --> 0:22:55.280 let's just say it has to do with footwear, they 0:22:55.320 --> 0:22:58.800 come to the conclusion X relative to the findings in 0:22:58.840 --> 0:23:02.600 George's case and validity of the evidence and how was examined, 0:23:02.720 --> 0:23:05.639 collected and analyzed. You've got the dynamic of a separate 0:23:05.720 --> 0:23:08.720 legal team there. They might have a completely different view 0:23:08.760 --> 0:23:11.800 of this. When you're accused of something, and I'm just 0:23:11.880 --> 0:23:14.840 speaking strictly about forensics here, you have to be able 0:23:14.880 --> 0:23:19.199 to hold forth against the entire might of the state 0:23:19.359 --> 0:23:23.680 and what they bring to bear their forensic resources. George's 0:23:23.760 --> 0:23:27.480 team is there to save George, they're not there to 0:23:27.520 --> 0:23:33.080 save Billy. The morning of the trial, William Bosniak arrived 0:23:33.119 --> 0:23:35.640 early and took a seat while the defense and prosecution 0:23:35.840 --> 0:23:40.000 organized their arguments. Bosniak is fit with a head of 0:23:40.040 --> 0:23:43.240 silver hair. You might guess he's ten years younger than 0:23:43.280 --> 0:23:51.320 his actual age of seventy six. Stud call, mister Tom 0:23:51.520 --> 0:23:53.480 the testimony. You are about the institute the truth for 0:23:53.520 --> 0:23:58.280 whole truth and nothing about the truth? Answer? And you got? 0:23:56.600 --> 0:24:01.879 I did? Can you tell us what your vocation is. 0:24:02.440 --> 0:24:07.639 I'm a forensic consultant and examiner. I specialize in footwear 0:24:08.040 --> 0:24:13.480 entire impression evidence. And can you tell us how abo 0:24:13.760 --> 0:24:18.679 you see big doing that? Since nineteen seventy three, George 0:24:18.720 --> 0:24:23.120 the Fourth avoids eye contact with Bosniak. Angie Kneppa goes 0:24:23.160 --> 0:24:26.680 through the very standard procedure of having an expert describe 0:24:26.680 --> 0:24:30.280 his resume to the court. He speaks for a full 0:24:30.359 --> 0:24:34.120 hour and a half on his qualifications. Bosniak has done 0:24:34.160 --> 0:24:37.480