1 00:00:02,279 --> 00:00:04,600 Speaker 1: A member of the Wagner family, was back in the 2 00:00:04,600 --> 00:00:08,520 Speaker 1: Pike County Courthouse today. His attorneys argued, George Wagner, the 3 00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:11,720 Speaker 1: fourth did not shoot and kill any of the Rodent 4 00:00:11,800 --> 00:00:14,880 Speaker 1: family members. Judge, in our motion, we have asked the 5 00:00:14,920 --> 00:00:19,239 Speaker 1: court to Dismisscounts one through eight and or the accompanying 6 00:00:19,520 --> 00:00:23,480 Speaker 1: death specifications which make this case a death penalty. As 7 00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:26,520 Speaker 1: part of the pleadio Jake Wagner reached with prosecutors neither 8 00:00:26,600 --> 00:00:28,840 Speaker 1: he nor his brother or their parents will face the 9 00:00:28,840 --> 00:00:33,199 Speaker 1: death penalty as long as Jake testifies in court. George 10 00:00:33,360 --> 00:00:36,480 Speaker 1: did not shoot or kill anybody. He did not pull 11 00:00:36,479 --> 00:00:40,720 Speaker 1: a trigger once. Jake, on the other hand, has admitted 12 00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:45,280 Speaker 1: to killing at least five people personally and shooting a sixth. 13 00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:49,520 Speaker 1: Special Prosecutor Angie Kneppa argued the murder charges and death 14 00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:54,120 Speaker 1: penalty specifications against George Wagner should remain until Jake Wagner 15 00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:57,840 Speaker 1: testifies on the record in a courtroom. Surviving members of 16 00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:00,880 Speaker 1: the Rodent family anxiously await for a search to close 17 00:01:00,920 --> 00:01:04,039 Speaker 1: the case, but won't ever erase the heartache they feel. 18 00:01:09,680 --> 00:01:13,960 Speaker 1: This is the piped In Massacre season three, episode seven, 19 00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:19,760 Speaker 1: Breadcrumbs Courtney Armstrong, a television producer at Katie's Studios, with 20 00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:23,880 Speaker 1: Stephanie Ledecker and Jeff Shane. In this episode, we follow 21 00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:28,240 Speaker 1: the trail of breadcrumbs left behind during these hearings. Some 22 00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:30,959 Speaker 1: of them lead into very dark corners that may only 23 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:35,360 Speaker 1: be fully illuminated once the trial begins. And no issue 24 00:01:35,360 --> 00:01:38,000 Speaker 1: has cast a larger shadow over the case than what 25 00:01:38,120 --> 00:01:42,360 Speaker 1: Angela and Jake's testimony may reveal about George and Billy's involvement. 26 00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:47,240 Speaker 1: The state has made a bargain with the shooter of 27 00:01:47,400 --> 00:01:49,680 Speaker 1: at least five people to kill her at at least 28 00:01:49,680 --> 00:01:52,600 Speaker 1: five people in this case, then we believe it's own 29 00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:56,400 Speaker 1: constitutional improper and abuse are to pursue the death tony 30 00:01:56,440 --> 00:02:00,800 Speaker 1: against George. When they admitted he didn't shoot anybody. You're 31 00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:04,880 Speaker 1: not stipulating that George did not shoot anybody because you 32 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:08,840 Speaker 1: don't know that. We are simply stipulating, in sporting proper 33 00:02:09,480 --> 00:02:14,359 Speaker 1: George did not shoot anybody. Maybe that's supports distinction. Now, 34 00:02:14,440 --> 00:02:17,520 Speaker 1: Judge Deering ended up denying the defense motion filed by 35 00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:21,120 Speaker 1: George Wagner's attorney. Now, we also learned that all four 36 00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:24,040 Speaker 1: of the suspects were offered the same chance to negotiate 37 00:02:24,080 --> 00:02:27,280 Speaker 1: a deal if they agreed to tell prosecutors what happened 38 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:30,959 Speaker 1: the night the Rodent family members were killed. These murders 39 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:34,720 Speaker 1: in Pike County, Ohio. It's not something they just entered into, 40 00:02:35,040 --> 00:02:36,880 Speaker 1: you know. They're not just you know, sitting around with 41 00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:38,480 Speaker 1: a few cans of beer oup and say let's go 42 00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:41,960 Speaker 1: slaughter to Rodents. That's not what happened. This took planning. 43 00:02:42,360 --> 00:02:45,840 Speaker 1: You're talking about the murder of eight other human beings. 44 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:51,120 Speaker 1: They're gonna go into quite graphic detail about, first off, 45 00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:54,840 Speaker 1: the kids being locked up in this house with the 46 00:02:54,880 --> 00:02:59,760 Speaker 1: deceased remains of their parents. They're going to talk about 47 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:02,840 Speaker 1: the bloodstains that were on the children. They're going to 48 00:03:02,919 --> 00:03:06,080 Speaker 1: talk about how their children were weeping and crying. It's 49 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:09,960 Speaker 1: going to be incredibly impactful. It'll be like getting hit 50 00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:13,720 Speaker 1: in the chest with a ten pound slash ner. You're 51 00:03:13,760 --> 00:03:17,160 Speaker 1: not going to have a totality of the execution of 52 00:03:17,160 --> 00:03:19,640 Speaker 1: this agreement until they get up on the stand and 53 00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:22,960 Speaker 1: they do what they say that they were going to do, 54 00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:27,320 Speaker 1: you know, and absent that, then it's a game changer. 55 00:03:27,919 --> 00:03:32,520 Speaker 1: Defense attorney, former prosecutor, judge and Fox nineteen Legal analyst 56 00:03:32,639 --> 00:03:36,320 Speaker 1: Mike Allen has been following the Keys closely. We asked 57 00:03:36,360 --> 00:03:39,280 Speaker 1: them about Angela and Jake's proffers and if their testimonies 58 00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:42,560 Speaker 1: need to line up closely with the prosecutions, investigative and 59 00:03:42,640 --> 00:03:48,240 Speaker 1: forensic findings. The answer to that is yes. I mean, 60 00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:52,160 Speaker 1: if there's what they call a proper made by a defendant, 61 00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:55,160 Speaker 1: where the defendant will say, well, this is what I 62 00:03:55,160 --> 00:03:59,640 Speaker 1: would testify to, it's got to line up, not a 63 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:03,480 Speaker 1: resolutely perfectly, but generally it's got to line up with 64 00:04:03,520 --> 00:04:08,880 Speaker 1: what the prosecutions. They're probably meeting with Angela and Jake regularly. 65 00:04:09,160 --> 00:04:11,200 Speaker 1: You don't want to screw this up. You don't want 66 00:04:11,200 --> 00:04:14,200 Speaker 1: to make some kind of comment to somebody, anybody that 67 00:04:14,280 --> 00:04:17,120 Speaker 1: you're in jail with, even the prison staff, that you're 68 00:04:17,120 --> 00:04:19,479 Speaker 1: coming in contact with him in daily basis, anything that 69 00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:22,720 Speaker 1: could hamper this trial. They want to keep this thing 70 00:04:22,760 --> 00:04:26,240 Speaker 1: as pristine as they possibly can. Going into what are 71 00:04:26,240 --> 00:04:29,359 Speaker 1: the prosecution's going to do with George and Billy, here's 72 00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:33,920 Speaker 1: producer Chris Graves speaking with forensic death investigator Joseph Scott Morgan. 73 00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:39,839 Speaker 1: If those proffers are to be believed, it would seem 74 00:04:39,960 --> 00:04:43,480 Speaker 1: that Billy did the other three. Yeah, yeah, it would 75 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:47,800 Speaker 1: seem that and Jake admitted to these killings if he 76 00:04:47,880 --> 00:04:51,000 Speaker 1: facilitated the deaths of five people, which he's admitted to, 77 00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:54,000 Speaker 1: and we still have three that are unaccounted for it, 78 00:04:54,279 --> 00:04:56,680 Speaker 1: and I think Money's own Billy at this point in time, 79 00:04:56,760 --> 00:04:59,520 Speaker 1: he's front runner. I think that the State's going to 80 00:04:59,560 --> 00:05:02,120 Speaker 1: want their pound of flesh in this case because of 81 00:05:02,160 --> 00:05:06,279 Speaker 1: everything that has happened relatively, all of the deception, all 82 00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:10,520 Speaker 1: of this horror that has come down upon this little 83 00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:14,320 Speaker 1: rural county in southern Ohio. I think the people of 84 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:18,840 Speaker 1: Ohio probably are going to demand it. The Rodent family 85 00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:22,919 Speaker 1: case is going to be that case that eighty years 86 00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:24,719 Speaker 1: from now, people are going to sit around campfire and 87 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:30,760 Speaker 1: tell stories about. Another motion, Motion seventy six, filed by 88 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:34,240 Speaker 1: the defense, deals with the admissibility of specific evidence and 89 00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:37,840 Speaker 1: expert testimony that the prosecution hopes will seal the deal 90 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:43,120 Speaker 1: for convincing the jury of Georgia's involvement. The prosecution quickly 91 00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:46,120 Speaker 1: filed a memorandum stating that their case for why the 92 00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:49,600 Speaker 1: evidence should be admissible and why Motion seventy six should 93 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:54,320 Speaker 1: be struck down. Here's Chris Graves speaking with retired prosecutor 94 00:05:54,400 --> 00:06:01,599 Speaker 1: and Flan again about the shoeprint evidence. For every motion 95 00:06:01,640 --> 00:06:05,040 Speaker 1: at the defense file, there may be a response or 96 00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:08,120 Speaker 1: there may be another motion filed by the state that 97 00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:12,440 Speaker 1: seeks something. And in those motions at times that you 98 00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:15,800 Speaker 1: will glean some additional facts that maybe you have not 99 00:06:15,960 --> 00:06:20,200 Speaker 1: heard from other sources. It's like finding little breadcrumbs to 100 00:06:20,320 --> 00:06:24,080 Speaker 1: this puzzle we've all been trying to figure out. We 101 00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:26,279 Speaker 1: took this new evidence and compared it to some of 102 00:06:26,279 --> 00:06:30,480 Speaker 1: the facts already known in the case. Here's Stephanie and Jeff. 103 00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:34,400 Speaker 1: This is the relevant factual background in the memorandum. Eight 104 00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:37,120 Speaker 1: members of the Rodent family were murdered in their homes 105 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:40,920 Speaker 1: on the night of April twenty twenty sixteen. Investigators located 106 00:06:40,960 --> 00:06:44,640 Speaker 1: shoeprints at two properties four oh seven seven Union Hill 107 00:06:44,760 --> 00:06:47,840 Speaker 1: Road and three one two two Union Hill Road. These 108 00:06:47,880 --> 00:06:51,919 Speaker 1: shoe prints had pools of dried blood belonging to the victims. Okay, 109 00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:54,520 Speaker 1: so let's dig into this just a little deeper. The 110 00:06:54,640 --> 00:06:57,560 Speaker 1: locations where these prints were found were at the homes 111 00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:01,680 Speaker 1: of Chris Roden Senior and then Dana Rodin. We've been 112 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:05,400 Speaker 1: to this location and their running distance from each other. 113 00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:08,839 Speaker 1: When we visited piked In, we actually did the drive 114 00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:12,680 Speaker 1: of Union Hill Road to map out the different crime scenes. 115 00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:16,080 Speaker 1: Union Hill Road lies about twenty minutes west of downtown 116 00:07:16,200 --> 00:07:19,520 Speaker 1: piked In off of Route thirty two. You exit the highways, 117 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:22,040 Speaker 1: then double back and head into a patchwork of forests 118 00:07:22,040 --> 00:07:24,760 Speaker 1: and fields, and about half a mile up the road 119 00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:27,480 Speaker 1: on the right is when you first see three one 120 00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:30,400 Speaker 1: two two Union Hill Road, the property that Chris road 121 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:34,160 Speaker 1: And Senior bought for Dana and the kids just months 122 00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:37,440 Speaker 1: before the murders, and we talked about this. That's also 123 00:07:37,480 --> 00:07:41,920 Speaker 1: the location where Hannah May Roden had her baby shower 124 00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:45,200 Speaker 1: just leading up to the murders. So moving into this 125 00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:48,360 Speaker 1: home was a really happy and exciting thing for Dana. 126 00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:51,040 Speaker 1: Just down the road from that is four oh seven 127 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:54,360 Speaker 1: seven Union Hill Road, and that's where Chris Roden Senior 128 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:57,040 Speaker 1: was living and as we know, his cousin Gary was 129 00:07:57,080 --> 00:07:59,840 Speaker 1: staying with him. This was a very brutal crime scene. 130 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:03,720 Speaker 1: Were pools of blood everywhere, and in these pools of blood, 131 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:07,320 Speaker 1: what police found were two shoeprints, one a size ten 132 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:11,120 Speaker 1: and a half and the other a size eleven. According 133 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:14,680 Speaker 1: to the report, a size eleven Walmart Athletic Works brand 134 00:08:14,760 --> 00:08:19,320 Speaker 1: shoe left a print. Here's Joseph Scott Morgan. I went 135 00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:22,240 Speaker 1: back and I thought that brand sounded familiar. And the 136 00:08:22,320 --> 00:08:24,720 Speaker 1: reason it was familiar to me is that when my 137 00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:27,240 Speaker 1: son Noah got one of his first jobs, it was 138 00:08:27,320 --> 00:08:29,520 Speaker 1: at Chick fil A and they require you to wear 139 00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:33,400 Speaker 1: those non slip shoes. We went to Walmart to buy 140 00:08:33,520 --> 00:08:35,560 Speaker 1: him a pair, and that's what they were, and I 141 00:08:35,679 --> 00:08:40,440 Speaker 1: just looked that up. They're primarily Athletic Works shoes. Their 142 00:08:40,520 --> 00:08:43,959 Speaker 1: non slip souls is what they are. They're black in color, 143 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:47,360 Speaker 1: they kind of look like athletic shoes, and visiting their website, 144 00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:50,280 Speaker 1: they go for like thirteen bucks a pair or something 145 00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:54,160 Speaker 1: like that. It's something that's easily acquired. The size eleven 146 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:57,320 Speaker 1: shoe was actually found in both Christina and Data's home, 147 00:08:57,720 --> 00:09:01,720 Speaker 1: which is extremely significant because there's been so much speculation 148 00:09:01,760 --> 00:09:05,680 Speaker 1: about this. Did they divide up and each go to 149 00:09:05,760 --> 00:09:08,720 Speaker 1: a different location or did they do it together, and 150 00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:13,839 Speaker 1: that's what this evidence would imply. Yeah, to further knock 151 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:16,240 Speaker 1: point stuff. What they also found was that the size 152 00:09:16,280 --> 00:09:20,360 Speaker 1: eleven shoe had a mix of multiple victims blood in it, 153 00:09:20,480 --> 00:09:23,600 Speaker 1: which again speaks to your point that whoever was wearing 154 00:09:23,640 --> 00:09:28,760 Speaker 1: that shoe went to multiple road in houses for Joseph Morgan. 155 00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:35,000 Speaker 1: It brought to mind another infamous family massacre. I urge 156 00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:37,160 Speaker 1: anybody that has never read In Cold Blood to go 157 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:41,120 Speaker 1: read this book, specifically because of the forensics. Capodi did 158 00:09:41,160 --> 00:09:44,440 Speaker 1: such a fantastic job and given such a great description 159 00:09:44,440 --> 00:09:47,240 Speaker 1: of this horrible scene where this family was absolutely butchered, 160 00:09:47,640 --> 00:09:50,360 Speaker 1: not too dissimilar from what happened in Piked, and only 161 00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:53,280 Speaker 1: happened in one single home in Kansas all those years back. 162 00:09:53,679 --> 00:09:56,360 Speaker 1: They had one piece of evidence that really tied everything 163 00:09:56,400 --> 00:09:59,920 Speaker 1: together that scene. In Cold Blood is a non fiction 164 00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:03,720 Speaker 1: novel by author Truman Capote that was published in nineteen 165 00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:08,040 Speaker 1: sixty six. It details the nineteen fifty nine murders of 166 00:10:08,080 --> 00:10:11,439 Speaker 1: the Clutter family in small town, Kansas. And you might 167 00:10:11,440 --> 00:10:13,760 Speaker 1: have read this book in high school or have heard 168 00:10:13,760 --> 00:10:15,800 Speaker 1: of it. It's really one of the first true crime 169 00:10:15,880 --> 00:10:19,679 Speaker 1: stories that people sank their teeth into, and I would 170 00:10:19,760 --> 00:10:24,920 Speaker 1: surmise that any true crime TV series or podcast or 171 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:28,800 Speaker 1: documentary really should give some credit to this one, because 172 00:10:29,080 --> 00:10:30,960 Speaker 1: without it, I don't think the genre would be what 173 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:36,400 Speaker 1: it is. There are actually a lot of parallels between 174 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:39,200 Speaker 1: the piked and massacre and the clutter of family murders 175 00:10:39,720 --> 00:10:44,320 Speaker 1: one the family aspect. Also to the brutality three the 176 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:46,920 Speaker 1: victims being shot in the head, and just the sheer 177 00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:52,000 Speaker 1: amount of bloodshed. It's chilling. For those of you who 178 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:54,320 Speaker 1: aren't familiar with the story, we'll give you a little 179 00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:56,480 Speaker 1: bit of a top line about it. It all started 180 00:10:56,480 --> 00:10:58,680 Speaker 1: in the fall of nineteen fifty nine when these two 181 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:02,840 Speaker 1: x cons named Perry Smith and Richard Hiccock drove across 182 00:11:02,920 --> 00:11:05,000 Speaker 1: Kansas on a tip they had received from one of 183 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:07,280 Speaker 1: their fellow inmates when they were in jail. While the 184 00:11:07,360 --> 00:11:09,040 Speaker 1: duel was still in jail, they met a man nam 185 00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:11,840 Speaker 1: Floyd Wells, who had claimed to them he had once 186 00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:14,760 Speaker 1: worked as a farmhand for a man named Herb Clutter, who, 187 00:11:14,760 --> 00:11:17,600 Speaker 1: according to Floyd, had kept thousands of dollars in a 188 00:11:17,640 --> 00:11:21,080 Speaker 1: safe in his basement. And that is all that Smith 189 00:11:21,120 --> 00:11:24,280 Speaker 1: and Hiccock needed to hear, And eventually, when they got 190 00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:27,040 Speaker 1: out of jail, they drove four hundred miles to the 191 00:11:27,040 --> 00:11:30,400 Speaker 1: Clutter residence and snuck into the house as the family 192 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:33,880 Speaker 1: was sleeping. They started by tying up mister and Missus 193 00:11:33,880 --> 00:11:37,600 Speaker 1: Clutter and their two teenage children, Kenyon and Bonnie. It's 194 00:11:37,640 --> 00:11:42,680 Speaker 1: every parent's worst nightmare. I can't help being reminded of 195 00:11:42,720 --> 00:11:45,480 Speaker 1: what the Rodent family must have been feeling the night 196 00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:48,200 Speaker 1: that they were murdered, thinking about them in their homes 197 00:11:48,280 --> 00:11:50,640 Speaker 1: and having a loud, banging sound and all of a sudden, 198 00:11:50,640 --> 00:11:52,800 Speaker 1: there's gun in your face. And it turns out there 199 00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:55,280 Speaker 1: actually was not a safe. It was a total lie. 200 00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:58,440 Speaker 1: Or her rumor and Hiccoc, who had a very short temper, 201 00:11:58,920 --> 00:12:01,800 Speaker 1: flew into a raid. And it's so sad because they 202 00:12:01,880 --> 00:12:05,960 Speaker 1: must have decided beforehand that they wouldn't lead any witnesses alive, 203 00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:08,719 Speaker 1: so all they got away with was a radio in 204 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:11,960 Speaker 1: maybe fifty dollars, but still they decided they had to 205 00:12:12,040 --> 00:12:16,480 Speaker 1: kill the entire family. Yeah, once they made this decision, 206 00:12:16,800 --> 00:12:18,920 Speaker 1: they kind of went one by one to the family 207 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:21,200 Speaker 1: members who were in various points of the home. And 208 00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:23,800 Speaker 1: they started with mister Clutter, who was bound and gagged 209 00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:26,520 Speaker 1: on a box spring in the basement. Harry Smith slit 210 00:12:26,559 --> 00:12:29,160 Speaker 1: his throat and then shot him in the head. They 211 00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:31,920 Speaker 1: then went to the teenage son, Kenyon, who was bound 212 00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:34,319 Speaker 1: in another part of the basement and shot him to death, 213 00:12:34,559 --> 00:12:37,319 Speaker 1: and then they of course headed upstairs to kill mom 214 00:12:37,640 --> 00:12:42,520 Speaker 1: Nancy Clutter, and sadly, after hearing both her parents and 215 00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:45,720 Speaker 1: her brother being murdered, Bonnie Clutter was shot in the head. 216 00:12:46,280 --> 00:12:49,079 Speaker 1: Her hands were tied in front of her, she was gagged, 217 00:12:49,280 --> 00:12:51,800 Speaker 1: and get this, they actually tucked her into her bed. 218 00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:56,080 Speaker 1: It's almost like they were trying to make her comfortable 219 00:12:56,600 --> 00:13:01,760 Speaker 1: in the moments leading up to her murder. Another similarity 220 00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:03,880 Speaker 1: to the road in case seems to be the sheer 221 00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:07,040 Speaker 1: violence of all of this. To shoot someone and slip 222 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:11,720 Speaker 1: their throat is the definition of overkill. In the same 223 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:14,240 Speaker 1: way shooting members of the Rodan family multiple times in 224 00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:18,760 Speaker 1: the face is just violence for violences sake. Something else 225 00:13:18,760 --> 00:13:20,760 Speaker 1: that we should note that at some point in the night, 226 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:23,760 Speaker 1: Perry Smith stepped in mister Clutter's blood in the basement 227 00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:28,320 Speaker 1: and left a partial footprint that again seems eerily similar 228 00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:32,520 Speaker 1: to this footprint that we've been discussing in the Rodent homes. 229 00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:36,320 Speaker 1: A lot of creepy stuff went on in this case. Anyway, 230 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:39,520 Speaker 1: He was executed down there, and Perry, who was one 231 00:13:39,520 --> 00:13:41,800 Speaker 1: of the killers, was wearing a boot that had been 232 00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:45,160 Speaker 1: resold in this boot. When you hear this name, this 233 00:13:45,760 --> 00:13:49,680 Speaker 1: name in forensic parlance, it's a benchmark moment. It's called 234 00:13:49,679 --> 00:13:52,920 Speaker 1: the cat Paul print. When he stepped on that box, 235 00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:59,320 Speaker 1: he transferred a print to that box with his boot 236 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:03,679 Speaker 1: that had transferred from blood onto the surface, and it 237 00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:09,280 Speaker 1: left that Cat Paul print. Perry Smith's boots were later recovered. 238 00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:16,120 Speaker 1: Not so, and piked In the defense has struck gold here. Really, 239 00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:20,720 Speaker 1: I think, so, what makes you think that, Well, guess 240 00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:25,440 Speaker 1: what they found. They had Perry's boots in this case, 241 00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:29,280 Speaker 1: they ain't got nothing and Piked and they don't have 242 00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:32,120 Speaker 1: the shoes. They don't have that to compare to in 243 00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:35,840 Speaker 1: the Clutter case they did. And I'm drawing these conclusions 244 00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:38,720 Speaker 1: because I think, in my opinion at least, that this case, 245 00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:40,720 Speaker 1: much like the Clutter case, is going to be a 246 00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:45,640 Speaker 1: blood bath. The prosecution is betting that their footprint expert, 247 00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:48,920 Speaker 1: William Bosniak, can tie the bloody prints back to the 248 00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:53,120 Speaker 1: Wagners without having the actual footwear for his analysis. Bosniak 249 00:14:53,200 --> 00:14:56,480 Speaker 1: bought the same Athletic Works model size and shoe at 250 00:14:56,520 --> 00:14:59,600 Speaker 1: Walmart about a thousand miles away from piked In and 251 00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:03,120 Speaker 1: his homestate of Florida. The defense is trying to raise 252 00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:06,520 Speaker 1: doubt about the process by which Bosniak determined the match, 253 00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:11,080 Speaker 1: as well as about Bosniak's actual qualifications as an expert. 254 00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:15,280 Speaker 1: To do this, they've requested what's called a Daubard hearing 255 00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:22,680 Speaker 1: here again and Flanagan Dalbert is just the name of 256 00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:26,680 Speaker 1: a case where some guidelines were set forth by the 257 00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:30,600 Speaker 1: US Supreme Court. And it was done with the idea 258 00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:34,720 Speaker 1: that we don't want junk science going to a jury 259 00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:38,320 Speaker 1: just because someone was declared an expert and said that 260 00:15:38,360 --> 00:15:41,520 Speaker 1: this was his expert opinion. And so they gave some 261 00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:45,800 Speaker 1: guidelines for attorneys and courts, and so some of the 262 00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:49,920 Speaker 1: guidelines aren't what would be called Dalbert factors. Some of 263 00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:53,160 Speaker 1: these factors include whether the theory or technique in question 264 00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:57,040 Speaker 1: can be and has been tested, whether it has been 265 00:15:57,080 --> 00:16:01,360 Speaker 1: subject to peer review and publication, known potential error rate, 266 00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:05,520 Speaker 1: and whether it has attracted widespread acceptance within the forensic 267 00:16:05,600 --> 00:16:10,520 Speaker 1: scientific community. Well, one of the attacks that the defense 268 00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:13,040 Speaker 1: made is that this is not the shoe. The shoe 269 00:16:13,040 --> 00:16:16,280 Speaker 1: that he compared to the print is a sample shoe 270 00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:18,400 Speaker 1: that he bought later. They would want to do that 271 00:16:18,520 --> 00:16:24,520 Speaker 1: because they see that as very damaging evidence. Understand, the 272 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:28,760 Speaker 1: defense's job is to exploit these small little issues along 273 00:16:28,760 --> 00:16:30,840 Speaker 1: the way. They don't have to destroy the whole case. 274 00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:34,360 Speaker 1: You know, when you start to talk about you know, well, 275 00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:37,440 Speaker 1: they've given so much value to this piece of evidence, 276 00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:39,640 Speaker 1: they're going to try to paint it that way. If 277 00:16:39,640 --> 00:16:43,800 Speaker 1: this trial happens down there in southern Ohio and Appalachia, 278 00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:48,280 Speaker 1: people that inhabit those regions, their ears perk up when 279 00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:51,000 Speaker 1: they hear an accent from other places, or they see 280 00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:53,520 Speaker 1: people that don't quite fit in. And all he has 281 00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:55,920 Speaker 1: to do is say, you know, this s guy, he's 282 00:16:55,960 --> 00:16:57,760 Speaker 1: with the Feds. Why the hell are you going to 283 00:16:57,800 --> 00:17:01,320 Speaker 1: go outside of your own law enforcement Emily and the 284 00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:05,240 Speaker 1: crime lab there in state, in contract with an outside 285 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:10,520 Speaker 1: expert in this particular case. Ultimately, Judge Daring ruled for 286 00:17:10,560 --> 00:17:14,520 Speaker 1: the defense that the Dobbard hearing could go forward. Joseph 287 00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:17,119 Speaker 1: Scott Morgan explains that if the judge rules in favor 288 00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:20,399 Speaker 1: of the defense, a jury would never hear any of 289 00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:25,119 Speaker 1: the evidence about the shoes. Defense is writtenes sing up 290 00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:29,480 Speaker 1: to state that this gentleman is going to testify to 291 00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:33,320 Speaker 1: size ten and a half and to size eleventh athletic 292 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:38,119 Speaker 1: works shoes. He's going to testify to those items and 293 00:17:38,119 --> 00:17:41,720 Speaker 1: then he's marrying those up to the photographs of the 294 00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:47,199 Speaker 1: shoe prints that's seen to these individuals. They're saying that 295 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:51,040 Speaker 1: this isn't going to hold water forensically, then we can 296 00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:55,199 Speaker 1: conclude that perhaps that bit of evidence will be excluded. 297 00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:58,160 Speaker 1: But listen, this is the defense. This is what they do. 298 00:18:01,560 --> 00:18:05,440 Speaker 1: If I hire a defense attorney, I'm assuming that's their 299 00:18:05,560 --> 00:18:09,760 Speaker 1: job to basically throw anything against the wall and hope 300 00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:12,040 Speaker 1: that it sticks. I would imagine it's a little bit 301 00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:15,200 Speaker 1: of an upful battle defending someone like George Wagner because 302 00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:18,120 Speaker 1: there's a lot of evidence against him, and so the 303 00:18:18,119 --> 00:18:21,520 Speaker 1: defense attorney is just trying to find ways around that 304 00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:25,800 Speaker 1: and ways to cast reasonable doubt. Because with a jury, 305 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:28,159 Speaker 1: you don't need to prove that someone's innocent. All you 306 00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:30,640 Speaker 1: need to do is poke enough holes in the prosecution 307 00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:33,639 Speaker 1: story that there is a reasonable doubt that George Wagner 308 00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:37,080 Speaker 1: did not murder eight people. We think it's important to 309 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:40,640 Speaker 1: go through the different pieces of evidence that the prosecution 310 00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:44,159 Speaker 1: is allegedly putting forward because it really does play a 311 00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:47,320 Speaker 1: huge part in this case. The first thing that we 312 00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:51,920 Speaker 1: think seems very relevant is these shoe receipts. Now as 313 00:18:51,920 --> 00:18:54,600 Speaker 1: a result of a search warrant executed on the vehicles 314 00:18:54,600 --> 00:18:58,040 Speaker 1: and the trailers belonging to the Wagner family. Investigators located 315 00:18:58,119 --> 00:19:02,480 Speaker 1: a Walmart receipt for a location in Waverley, Ohio. The 316 00:19:02,560 --> 00:19:05,240 Speaker 1: data on the receipt is April seventh, twenty sixteen, which, 317 00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:07,120 Speaker 1: as we know, is just a couple of weeks before 318 00:19:07,160 --> 00:19:10,160 Speaker 1: the murders. The receipt was for two pairs of gray 319 00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:15,120 Speaker 1: men's Walmart branded shoes with belcrow straps in sizes ten 320 00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:18,159 Speaker 1: and a half and eleven. Officials were able to obtain 321 00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:21,840 Speaker 1: and preserve surveillance photographs and receipts of all recent purchases 322 00:19:22,280 --> 00:19:25,119 Speaker 1: of that model and those sizes of the shoe in 323 00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:29,120 Speaker 1: numerous Walmart stores throughout southern Ohio. At some point, an 324 00:19:29,119 --> 00:19:33,520 Speaker 1: expert review the photographs obtained from a Walmart in Waverley, Ohio, 325 00:19:34,080 --> 00:19:37,119 Speaker 1: and it included still images of the customers who purchased 326 00:19:37,359 --> 00:19:41,200 Speaker 1: athletic work shoes that day, and the customer purchasing those 327 00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:45,080 Speaker 1: shoes in this particular surveillance shot is none other than 328 00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:50,040 Speaker 1: Angela Wagner. They actually show her exiting the Waverley Walmart 329 00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:54,200 Speaker 1: on April seventh, twenty sixteen, at approximately the exact same 330 00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:57,560 Speaker 1: time on the receipt found on the Wagner property. And 331 00:19:57,640 --> 00:20:01,359 Speaker 1: this day is so significant because, as you know, Hannah 332 00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:04,880 Speaker 1: May Roden was having her baby shower at her new 333 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:07,600 Speaker 1: house where she lived with her mom, which we talked 334 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:12,119 Speaker 1: about earlier. It is pretty damning evidence, to say the least. 335 00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:16,639 Speaker 1: We were told at some point that Angela Wagner chose 336 00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:20,640 Speaker 1: those specific shoes for her boys to wear, because they 337 00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:26,040 Speaker 1: were allegedly the exact same shoes that Dana Roden's brother 338 00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:30,640 Speaker 1: wore to work. And it's been speculated that perhaps Angela 339 00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:36,119 Speaker 1: Wagner was literally trying to set up Dana Roden's brother 340 00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:40,280 Speaker 1: for these murders. I have a question, what do you 341 00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:43,000 Speaker 1: think has more weight in the courtroom, the science and 342 00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:46,520 Speaker 1: the facts of the case or Jake Wagner's version of events. Well, 343 00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:48,480 Speaker 1: it all depends on what Jake has given them at 344 00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:51,240 Speaker 1: this point. And Mama, from a forensic standpoint, I can't 345 00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:53,320 Speaker 1: wait to see this. They've already shown their hand to 346 00:20:53,359 --> 00:20:55,560 Speaker 1: a certain degree. They're saying, we're going after the forensic 347 00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:59,399 Speaker 1: evidence right now. We know it's footwear. What else is 348 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:02,160 Speaker 1: on the table, or we're gonna talk about ballistics because 349 00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:04,560 Speaker 1: that's the agency for bringing about death here. You know, 350 00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:08,480 Speaker 1: we're talking about firing multiple rounds into all of these people. 351 00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:18,000 Speaker 1: Reporter Angeanette Levy sees potential implications for George and Billy 352 00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:21,400 Speaker 1: Wagner if the evidence is allowed. I just know from 353 00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:24,520 Speaker 1: one of the hearings back in August of twenty twenty, 354 00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:27,919 Speaker 1: they were saying, you have no evidence against George the 355 00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:31,159 Speaker 1: fourth and the same with Billy. Billy's attorneys said in 356 00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:34,399 Speaker 1: court documents, you have no evidence against our guy. There's 357 00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:37,000 Speaker 1: nothing in the discovery that ties him to this. So 358 00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:38,640 Speaker 1: when you look at it, if we're looking at shoe 359 00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:42,320 Speaker 1: impression evidence, those could be things that maybe tie them 360 00:21:42,359 --> 00:21:44,679 Speaker 1: to the crime scenes because we have that whole issue 361 00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:47,879 Speaker 1: of the state saying and Angela Wagner at confirming that 362 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:51,080 Speaker 1: she purchased these shoes at Walmart for them to use. 363 00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:56,360 Speaker 1: So those items could tie George and Billy to the crimes. 364 00:21:58,119 --> 00:22:00,840 Speaker 1: Because the Dabbard hearing could affect both father and son, 365 00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:03,800 Speaker 1: Judge Deerring raised the possibility that they both appear in 366 00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:06,959 Speaker 1: court at the same time. I would think that's going 367 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:10,520 Speaker 1: to be potentially the most interesting thing to come out 368 00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:13,399 Speaker 1: of the Daubard hearing. So you're going to have the 369 00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:20,080 Speaker 1: singular hearing about the scientific evidence, and then it's going 370 00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:25,680 Speaker 1: to be presented at two separate capital murder trials. We're 371 00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:28,080 Speaker 1: going to take a break. We'll be back in a moment. 372 00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:38,159 Speaker 1: Judge Deerring decided to have two separate Dabbard cases for 373 00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:42,080 Speaker 1: George and Billy Wagner, avoiding a father son faced face 374 00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:45,200 Speaker 1: for the first time since their arrests almost four years ago. 375 00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:52,720 Speaker 1: Here's Joseph Morgan. What if they come to a conclusion, 376 00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:55,280 Speaker 1: let's just say it has to do with footwear, they 377 00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:58,800 Speaker 1: come to the conclusion X relative to the findings in 378 00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:02,600 Speaker 1: George's case and validity of the evidence and how was examined, 379 00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:05,639 Speaker 1: collected and analyzed. You've got the dynamic of a separate 380 00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:08,720 Speaker 1: legal team there. They might have a completely different view 381 00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:11,800 Speaker 1: of this. When you're accused of something, and I'm just 382 00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:14,840 Speaker 1: speaking strictly about forensics here, you have to be able 383 00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:19,199 Speaker 1: to hold forth against the entire might of the state 384 00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:23,680 Speaker 1: and what they bring to bear their forensic resources. George's 385 00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:27,480 Speaker 1: team is there to save George, they're not there to 386 00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:33,080 Speaker 1: save Billy. The morning of the trial, William Bosniak arrived 387 00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:35,640 Speaker 1: early and took a seat while the defense and prosecution 388 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:40,000 Speaker 1: organized their arguments. Bosniak is fit with a head of 389 00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:43,240 Speaker 1: silver hair. You might guess he's ten years younger than 390 00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:51,320 Speaker 1: his actual age of seventy six. Stud call, mister Tom 391 00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:53,480 Speaker 1: the testimony. You are about the institute the truth for 392 00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:58,280 Speaker 1: whole truth and nothing about the truth? Answer? And you got? 393 00:23:56,600 --> 00:24:01,879 Speaker 1: I did? Can you tell us what your vocation is. 394 00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:07,639 Speaker 1: I'm a forensic consultant and examiner. I specialize in footwear 395 00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:13,480 Speaker 1: entire impression evidence. And can you tell us how abo 396 00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:18,679 Speaker 1: you see big doing that? Since nineteen seventy three, George 397 00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:23,120 Speaker 1: the Fourth avoids eye contact with Bosniak. Angie Kneppa goes 398 00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:26,680 Speaker 1: through the very standard procedure of having an expert describe 399 00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:30,280 Speaker 1: his resume to the court. He speaks for a full 400 00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:34,120 Speaker 1: hour and a half on his qualifications. Bosniak has done 401 00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:37,480 Speaker 1: thousands of footwear impression examinations during his career with the 402 00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:40,760 Speaker 1: FBI and in the twenty plus years of consulting since 403 00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:45,679 Speaker 1: his retirement in nineteen ninety eight. Footwear shoes of people 404 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:49,480 Speaker 1: leave impressions. Some of these are on two dimensional surfaces, 405 00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:54,920 Speaker 1: where shoes acquire material like dust, dirt, mud, blood, and 406 00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:59,879 Speaker 1: so forth, and then they read deposited in subsequent steps, 407 00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:02,040 Speaker 1: typically the few step in a pool of blood. The 408 00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:05,679 Speaker 1: first few steps are pretty heavy and messy. I have 409 00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:09,320 Speaker 1: a lot of blood, and then eventually each step some 410 00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:12,560 Speaker 1: of that blood is transferred to the floor and consumed, 411 00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:18,120 Speaker 1: so the next step doesn't have as much. Bosniak explains 412 00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:21,240 Speaker 1: that he can identify specific brands, models, and sizes of 413 00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:25,400 Speaker 1: shoes even if they aren't recovered. He does this by 414 00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:29,000 Speaker 1: comparing or recovered prints to the molds used by manufacturers 415 00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:32,360 Speaker 1: to make the soles of any given shoe. In shoes 416 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:36,600 Speaker 1: that are not popular, a manufacturer may only make one 417 00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:41,000 Speaker 1: mold for most or all sizes. The basic design will 418 00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:45,800 Speaker 1: be the same. It's computer generated has been for years, 419 00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:50,199 Speaker 1: so it's overall design and its physical size of that 420 00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:54,720 Speaker 1: design from all of those molds will virtually be indistinguishable. 421 00:25:55,720 --> 00:26:00,359 Speaker 1: But in some shoe designs they also add something that 422 00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:05,399 Speaker 1: is known as generically as texture. At this point, Bosniac 423 00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:09,880 Speaker 1: fires up a video he narrated. Texture is broadly defined 424 00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:14,240 Speaker 1: as a shallow pattern sometimes found on selective surfaces of 425 00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:18,199 Speaker 1: a footwear outshole. Adding texture to a mold is a 426 00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:23,080 Speaker 1: separate process. The video shows two workers in Southeast Asia. 427 00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:25,720 Speaker 1: They each sit at their own workbench with a small 428 00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:29,640 Speaker 1: hammer and all they're punching little divots into the shoe 429 00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:32,479 Speaker 1: molds that will later be used to cast rubber soles. 430 00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:37,320 Speaker 1: During the molding process, there are two predominant methods of 431 00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:40,679 Speaker 1: adding texture to a mold surface. One of those are 432 00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:44,800 Speaker 1: shown here, involves mechanically striking a pattern into the surface 433 00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:49,000 Speaker 1: using a steel dye or similar tool. This is known 434 00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:53,320 Speaker 1: as hand stiffly. Believe it or not, those little patterns 435 00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:55,560 Speaker 1: of the fine detail on the bottom of your shoes 436 00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:59,280 Speaker 1: are mostly hand carved, and no two are alike. A 437 00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:02,280 Speaker 1: size of level and mold created by one person will 438 00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:05,800 Speaker 1: have minute differences from a size eleven created by another person. 439 00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:09,679 Speaker 1: This goes even for the same brand and model shoe. 440 00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:16,600 Speaker 1: It creates a very specific footprint. What's great about this 441 00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:20,000 Speaker 1: evidence is that it's what we call it the monstrable 442 00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:23,520 Speaker 1: And when you have demonstrable evidence, that's a big, big 443 00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:28,560 Speaker 1: test of its reliability. If you live with Florida and 444 00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:33,080 Speaker 1: you're asked to do an examinations with Florida, how can 445 00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:36,639 Speaker 1: you make a comparison to a chie print impression? It 446 00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:43,680 Speaker 1: was left because manufacturers sell their shoes all over the country, 447 00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:49,040 Speaker 1: so if they're sold at one Walmart, you're probably sold 448 00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:52,199 Speaker 1: at the majority of them. If I know they're Walmart shoes, 449 00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:55,840 Speaker 1: then that's the obvious place that I would go to first. 450 00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:02,240 Speaker 1: Angie cannep arrests. Now it's time for defense attorney Rob 451 00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:05,280 Speaker 1: Junk to convince the judge that Bosniak is not a 452 00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:09,840 Speaker 1: reliable expert. So what I'm hearing from you? Then, in 453 00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:14,560 Speaker 1: doing this test, you're required to have a mold standard 454 00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:18,040 Speaker 1: from the factories, right, No, in some cases, I just 455 00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:21,840 Speaker 1: simply go to the store and buy some or get 456 00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:25,680 Speaker 1: permission to make photographs and take standards of the shoes 457 00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:29,080 Speaker 1: they have. And why not go to the manufact That's 458 00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:33,960 Speaker 1: not always possible, they're at other countries mostly. But unless 459 00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:38,080 Speaker 1: you have obtained all of the molds, how do you 460 00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:41,440 Speaker 1: know or how can you be certain that the impression 461 00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:46,200 Speaker 1: you have is a one particular mold or shoe that 462 00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:48,440 Speaker 1: you have purchased from the store. I mean, this is 463 00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:51,760 Speaker 1: just through your experience, is that right? You don't know 464 00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:54,120 Speaker 1: this to be I know this to be certain because 465 00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:58,400 Speaker 1: I've observed it. I've worked cases like this, I've interacted 466 00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:03,480 Speaker 1: with manufacturers, numerous manufacturers. I've been in factories asking questions 467 00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:07,200 Speaker 1: like this, and I've observed it over and over again 468 00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:11,200 Speaker 1: and used this process over and over again, and it's 469 00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:16,080 Speaker 1: a certain as anything can be. The defense works tirelessly 470 00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:19,320 Speaker 1: to see if Bosniak will slip up. The defense then 471 00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:22,040 Speaker 1: moves on to the issue of not having the actual 472 00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:26,680 Speaker 1: shoes used in the crime. Can you explain to the quarters, 473 00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:30,800 Speaker 1: if we're looking at a Walmart, how reliable it is 474 00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:36,760 Speaker 1: to make a comparison ring match between a Walmart store 475 00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:42,360 Speaker 1: and Florida and a shoe that a Walmart store maybe 476 00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:45,800 Speaker 1: in California d sell. Sure they came from the same hold, 477 00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:49,120 Speaker 1: they just got distributed to all over the country. And 478 00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:52,960 Speaker 1: although the impression corresponded with the shoe that you purchased 479 00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:57,120 Speaker 1: from Walmart, you cannot say that that impression came from 480 00:29:57,280 --> 00:30:03,080 Speaker 1: the athletic work shoe or a right. Yes, it's an 481 00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:07,320 Speaker 1: athletic workshoe that has the texture that I purchased in 482 00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:11,640 Speaker 1: that I compared and they corresponds with the crime scene. 483 00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:16,840 Speaker 1: After three hours of questioning, Judge Deering has heard enough. 484 00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:19,959 Speaker 1: I think I'm just going to rule an emotion. I mean, 485 00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:23,880 Speaker 1: I could include the court concludes that the footwear impression 486 00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:29,360 Speaker 1: evidence has explained and testified too, but William Budsiac satisfies 487 00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:32,000 Speaker 1: the criteria of evidence rule seven and two and Dallart 488 00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:39,880 Speaker 1: Merrill for the admissibility of expert testimony. Let's stop here 489 00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:50,720 Speaker 1: for another break with the Dobbard hearing over and motion 490 00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:54,000 Speaker 1: seventy six denied. It's guaranteed the jury will hear the 491 00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:58,960 Speaker 1: testimony of William Bosniac his positive identification linking the shoes 492 00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:02,680 Speaker 1: bought at Walmart by Angela Wagner and the footprints at 493 00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:06,600 Speaker 1: the crime scene containing the blood of multiple victims. This 494 00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:12,640 Speaker 1: may have far rich in consequences for the entire Wagner family. Regardless, 495 00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:16,520 Speaker 1: jurors will still see Jake's plea correct, and that would 496 00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:19,640 Speaker 1: have its own narrative in and of itself, and maybe 497 00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:22,720 Speaker 1: then the defense would poke holes in that. You're gonna 498 00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:24,480 Speaker 1: get more than that from Jake. He's gonna be on 499 00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:26,200 Speaker 1: the stand. He's got to stand and deliver. That's the 500 00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:28,800 Speaker 1: only way they made to steal him and Mama gonna 501 00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:32,160 Speaker 1: be on stand. Man, You're gonna have a five time 502 00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:38,360 Speaker 1: murderer all to stand given testimony against his daddy, against 503 00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:41,720 Speaker 1: his brother, I don't ever recall that I've ever heard 504 00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:44,400 Speaker 1: of case like this, not in my memory, not in 505 00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:49,000 Speaker 1: recent history, at least anywhere in America. The stakes at 506 00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:53,720 Speaker 1: this point are so incredibly high it's unimaginable. More on 507 00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:58,480 Speaker 1: that next time. If you're enjoying The Pikes and Massacre, 508 00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:02,480 Speaker 1: listen to our other hits series, Crazy and Love. New 509 00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:06,960 Speaker 1: episodes are every Tuesday. Wherever you get your podcasts. For 510 00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:11,240 Speaker 1: more information and case photos, follow us on Instagram at 511 00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:16,280 Speaker 1: Katie Underscore Studios. The Piked and Massacre is produced by 512 00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:21,760 Speaker 1: Stephanie Lydecker, Jeff Shane, Chris Greaves, Scott de Graw, and 513 00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:25,880 Speaker 1: me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound designed by Jeff Tui. 514 00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:30,120 Speaker 1: Music by Jared Aston. The Piked and Massacre is a 515 00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:34,440 Speaker 1: production of Katie Studios and I Heartradio. For more podcasts 516 00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:39,120 Speaker 1: from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 517 00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:40,959 Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.