WEBVTT - And, This is How Democrats Win Back Men with Jackson Katz 0:00:02.880 --> 0:00:04.880 When it comes to the issue of race and gender, 0:00:04.920 --> 0:00:08.760 when it comes to the issue of masculinity, there are 0:00:08.880 --> 0:00:12.799 few people that hold more credentials on this subject matter 0:00:13.080 --> 0:00:18.880 than my next guest. This is Gavin Newsom, and this 0:00:19.200 --> 0:00:23.520 is Jackson Katz. You've got a new book coming out 0:00:23.520 --> 0:00:26.200 at least overseas, and we'll see who comes out here. 0:00:26.200 --> 0:00:29.200 It's called every Man. But I mean that's interesting. Obama 0:00:29.240 --> 0:00:31.640 Renegade's Springsteen. So tell me a little bit more about that. 0:00:32.040 --> 0:00:33.960 Well, yeah, my book was just published in the UK 0:00:34.440 --> 0:00:36.720 in February, but it's coming out in September in the 0:00:36.800 --> 0:00:39.279 United States the American version. It's called every Man, Why 0:00:39.400 --> 0:00:41.519 violence against women is a men's issue and how you 0:00:41.520 --> 0:00:42.360 can make a difference. 0:00:42.440 --> 0:00:44.959 And Jack, just so for people that don't know you, 0:00:44.960 --> 0:00:47.800 you've been at this issue, been talking about the issue 0:00:47.840 --> 0:00:53.720 of intersection between gender race violence for decades and decades. 0:00:53.760 --> 0:00:56.000 I mean you've been in this space talking about the 0:00:56.000 --> 0:00:59.640 issues of masculinity, what's happening to young men and the 0:00:59.640 --> 0:01:04.000 relations between the sexes for twenty five plus years. 0:01:03.800 --> 0:01:06.280 Right, Oh, yeah, since I was a college student really, 0:01:06.440 --> 0:01:07.440 which is a long time ago. 0:01:07.560 --> 0:01:10.200 And what what what what originally inspired all of this 0:01:10.319 --> 0:01:13.160 and ultimately what inspired this book all these decades later, 0:01:13.200 --> 0:01:14.679 building on what the work you've been doing. 0:01:16.520 --> 0:01:19.240 Well, you know, as a young guy, and I was 0:01:19.280 --> 0:01:21.240 a big, you know, athlete in high school. I was 0:01:21.280 --> 0:01:23.600 an all star football player, and I was I came 0:01:23.600 --> 0:01:26.200 from a blue collar family, you know. If my stepfather 0:01:26.280 --> 0:01:28.520 was a truck driver and an army veteran of World 0:01:28.560 --> 0:01:31.840 War Two. My father was a medic in Germany and 0:01:31.840 --> 0:01:33.720 France in World War Two. I came from a family 0:01:33.760 --> 0:01:36.920 where you know, well, you know, it was a blue 0:01:36.920 --> 0:01:40.080 collar family, and and and and yet education was a 0:01:40.080 --> 0:01:45.920 big emphasis. And and when I was in college, I 0:01:45.959 --> 0:01:48.960 started taking courses in subjects that related to you know, 0:01:49.280 --> 0:01:51.920 gender and race and other things. And I was learning. 0:01:52.040 --> 0:01:53.760 I thought I was smart when I was a young guy, 0:01:53.800 --> 0:01:56.040 but I realized how little I knew, especially about how 0:01:56.080 --> 0:01:58.760 other people lived, because I, you know, I came from 0:01:58.760 --> 0:02:03.040 a kind of a white suburban background just north of Boston. 0:02:03.680 --> 0:02:07.480 And when I started taking classes on gender related topics 0:02:07.520 --> 0:02:10.480 and started hearing about women's experiences of violence, and I 0:02:10.160 --> 0:02:14.280 started seeing women organizing around the fear that they have 0:02:14.480 --> 0:02:16.560 so often, especially at night, you know, because that was 0:02:16.600 --> 0:02:18.959 the beginning of the take back to Night movement where 0:02:19.000 --> 0:02:21.120 women were marching to say, we have the right to 0:02:21.160 --> 0:02:23.959 walk outside at night. And I remember thinking when I 0:02:23.960 --> 0:02:26.720 saw these women, you know, sort of organizing for better 0:02:26.800 --> 0:02:31.240 lighting on campus, I remember thinking not that these women 0:02:31.280 --> 0:02:33.079 hated men, but that they felt like they had the 0:02:33.160 --> 0:02:34.960 right to walk across campus. And I felt like that 0:02:35.080 --> 0:02:37.160 was what leadership looked like. I was inspired by it. 0:02:37.200 --> 0:02:39.040 I was a young student journalist at the time, and 0:02:39.080 --> 0:02:41.720 I was inspired by women standing up and speaking up 0:02:41.720 --> 0:02:44.280 for themselves, just as I was inspired by African Americans 0:02:44.320 --> 0:02:46.480 and what we used to call, you know, the in 0:02:46.520 --> 0:02:48.640 the gay what used to be called the gay rights movement, 0:02:48.639 --> 0:02:49.679 which is now the LGBTK. 0:02:50.280 --> 0:02:52.600 And just put us in context of what year, roughly 0:02:52.639 --> 0:02:53.600 would we be talking. 0:02:53.360 --> 0:02:58.320 About, Roughly around nineteen eighty, So it's like, you know, 0:02:58.639 --> 0:03:00.960 I'm a little long in the two, but I've been 0:03:01.000 --> 0:03:03.120 doing this work so since I started speaking out then, 0:03:03.160 --> 0:03:06.320 and because I had this background in traditional male culture 0:03:06.360 --> 0:03:11.919 as a as an athlete and pretty successful, I knew 0:03:11.919 --> 0:03:13.880 that I had a platform. I knew that people were 0:03:13.919 --> 0:03:16.680 interested when I started saying, hey, you know, sexual assault 0:03:16.720 --> 0:03:19.040 and domestic violence, this is wrong, guys, this is like 0:03:19.160 --> 0:03:21.320 wrong and women should be able to shouldn't have to 0:03:21.320 --> 0:03:23.800 worry constantly about their personal safety and how would you 0:03:23.800 --> 0:03:25.200 feel if you were a woman, and how to live 0:03:25.280 --> 0:03:29.280 like that? I remember thinking, why aren't more men saying 0:03:29.280 --> 0:03:31.040 these things? Why aren't more men speaking out? Why is 0:03:31.040 --> 0:03:33.440 it always you know, women having to organize and speak 0:03:33.440 --> 0:03:37.000 out and push for, you know, reforms of the laws. 0:03:37.040 --> 0:03:39.040 Why aren't men doing this? And I know most men 0:03:39.040 --> 0:03:41.280 are not abusive, but yet most men don't speak out. 0:03:42.000 --> 0:03:43.920 And so because I knew I had a platform, I 0:03:43.920 --> 0:03:46.800 started speaking out. And honestly, I'm doing today, Governor, what 0:03:46.880 --> 0:03:49.600 I started doing as a you know, nineteen year old. 0:03:49.960 --> 0:03:52.280 I always say my hair is a lot shorter, not 0:03:52.360 --> 0:03:55.520 by choice, right, And I have nicer clothes than I 0:03:55.520 --> 0:03:57.440 did when I was a you know, a nineteen year 0:03:57.480 --> 0:04:00.320 old guy. But it's the same message. And you know, 0:04:00.440 --> 0:04:03.120 my book every Man, you know why violence against women 0:04:03.160 --> 0:04:04.840 as a men's issue is like what I've been saying 0:04:04.840 --> 0:04:10.440 for forty years. It's just because of my work and 0:04:10.560 --> 0:04:14.120 other people's work and the way the culture moves. There's 0:04:14.280 --> 0:04:16.880 you know, there's an energy now, there's a receptivity to 0:04:17.040 --> 0:04:20.560 talking about this, thinking about this. With the exception of 0:04:20.720 --> 0:04:23.000 the backsliding that we're doing in our country right now, 0:04:23.040 --> 0:04:27.839 which is a really dramatic series of steps backwards. And 0:04:27.920 --> 0:04:29.200 you know, we can talk about that as well. 0:04:29.520 --> 0:04:31.880 So what I mean when you look back forty years, 0:04:31.920 --> 0:04:33.599 I mean, did you really feel like you were the 0:04:33.640 --> 0:04:35.800 lone voice back then? I mean, were there was there 0:04:35.800 --> 0:04:39.200 any organized movement or recognition or was there any political 0:04:39.240 --> 0:04:42.159 leadership with men in this space to call out that 0:04:42.279 --> 0:04:45.800 violence against women? Or is it primarily would you describe 0:04:45.839 --> 0:04:49.520 as the feminist movement that was really organized behind the 0:04:49.560 --> 0:04:51.000 women's rights in this space or. 0:04:50.960 --> 0:04:54.280 At least yeah, it was definitely a sort of multi racial, 0:04:54.360 --> 0:04:57.520 multi ethnic feminist women led movement, and there was a 0:04:57.640 --> 0:04:59.479 tiny number of men. I mean I was, you know, 0:04:59.520 --> 0:05:02.360 I was kind of an early adapter as they would say, 0:05:03.440 --> 0:05:08.760 or adopter, like when I was twenty. I mean, there 0:05:08.839 --> 0:05:11.440 was not that many men doing this work, and now 0:05:11.480 --> 0:05:14.800 there are. I mean, there's no question that my work 0:05:14.839 --> 0:05:16.679 and a lot of other people's work over the last 0:05:16.839 --> 0:05:19.320 couple of generations has made a difference in terms of 0:05:19.360 --> 0:05:24.280 normalizing this kind of conversation. But political leadership very limited. 0:05:24.320 --> 0:05:25.960 I'm not saying it didn't exist, but it was very 0:05:26.000 --> 0:05:29.599 limited and in the public space, it was very unusual 0:05:29.640 --> 0:05:31.760 to hear men talking about any of this subject matter. 0:05:31.839 --> 0:05:33.680 And the fact that you started to say this is 0:05:33.720 --> 0:05:36.599 a man's issue, I mean, what do you mean by that? 0:05:37.040 --> 0:05:41.880 And how was that received by women that were expressing 0:05:41.920 --> 0:05:44.640 themselves and leaders in the feminist movement? Was it well 0:05:44.680 --> 0:05:47.719 received in that respect? Was it understood when you started 0:05:47.720 --> 0:05:49.960 talking initially about this being a man's issue? 0:05:51.880 --> 0:05:55.640 Generally speaking? I would say yes, because what feminist leaders 0:05:55.640 --> 0:05:58.080 were saying back then and they say this now, is 0:05:58.080 --> 0:06:00.839 that the role for men who are really know, concerned 0:06:01.279 --> 0:06:03.880 about these matters, which, by the way, all men should be. 0:06:03.960 --> 0:06:06.240 It's not something that should be a specific to me 0:06:06.440 --> 0:06:09.880 or a small number of men yourself, but a lot 0:06:09.880 --> 0:06:11.880 of the you know, a lot of the women leaders, 0:06:11.880 --> 0:06:15.400 including Bell Hooks famously, the African American, the sadly late 0:06:15.560 --> 0:06:22.200 African American feminist scholar and writer and activist, would say, 0:06:22.520 --> 0:06:24.760 would she and others would say the proper role for 0:06:24.839 --> 0:06:27.839 men in this work is to educate, organize, and politicize 0:06:27.880 --> 0:06:30.280 other men. It's not to it's not to go in 0:06:30.320 --> 0:06:32.760 and save women or even to work with women. It's 0:06:32.800 --> 0:06:35.920 to go into male culture in every racial and ethnic 0:06:36.080 --> 0:06:38.360 you know, community and every it's a global These are 0:06:38.360 --> 0:06:41.440 global problems, not local problems. I mean they're manifest locally, 0:06:41.440 --> 0:06:44.200 but their global problems. The proper role for men is 0:06:44.240 --> 0:06:47.160 to is to like, yeah, with their guys, you know 0:06:47.200 --> 0:06:49.400 what I mean, like their their friends, their colleagues, their peers, 0:06:49.400 --> 0:06:52.279 and adult men need to be providing much more over 0:06:52.320 --> 0:06:55.760 it and explicit leadership to young men. And if you 0:06:55.800 --> 0:06:57.440 stay in that lane. In other words, I think that's 0:06:57.480 --> 0:06:59.159 what women are asking. It's, by the way, it's very 0:06:59.160 --> 0:07:01.800 similar to what people of color have been saying for 0:07:01.920 --> 0:07:05.719 white people who are whether you call them allies or collaborators. 0:07:05.920 --> 0:07:08.799 It's like, you don't need white people going to black communities. 0:07:08.839 --> 0:07:11.760 You need white people organizing white people and speaking out 0:07:11.760 --> 0:07:14.000 and using the platform of influence that they have within 0:07:14.360 --> 0:07:18.840 their own sort of you know, culture or spheres of influence. 0:07:19.480 --> 0:07:21.520 It's a simple concept. It's not even that complicated. 0:07:21.760 --> 0:07:24.200 So you say, I mean for forty years you've been 0:07:24.200 --> 0:07:26.880 at this and obviously there was you know, you've had 0:07:26.920 --> 0:07:29.720 an incredibly successful career, had a lot of influence in 0:07:29.800 --> 0:07:33.280 this space. But you referenced yourself that this is there 0:07:33.280 --> 0:07:36.119 seems to be a door that's opening now in this space. 0:07:36.160 --> 0:07:38.080 But they're also a door closing, and we'll get to 0:07:38.120 --> 0:07:41.440 that in a minute in terms of some regression. But 0:07:41.560 --> 0:07:43.920 the door that's opening in terms of what consciousness in 0:07:43.960 --> 0:07:46.880 the space, a recognition of the crisis of young men. 0:07:47.360 --> 0:07:49.880 The political side of this, how do you describe from 0:07:50.080 --> 0:07:52.520 Is it a policy framework that you see shifting or 0:07:52.600 --> 0:07:54.600 political framework that's shifting. 0:07:55.960 --> 0:07:58.000 It's both, I would say, I would say I would 0:07:58.000 --> 0:08:01.240 say there's a shift in consciousness that's been happening over 0:08:01.240 --> 0:08:04.320 the last couple of generations. Really it's not a really, 0:08:04.840 --> 0:08:07.120 you know, brand new thing. I mean, whole generations of 0:08:07.160 --> 0:08:10.720 men and young men have grown up with feminist mothers, 0:08:10.760 --> 0:08:13.640 with women in the workplace as equals, with girls and 0:08:13.680 --> 0:08:17.720 women sitting next to them in school, in the professional world. 0:08:17.880 --> 0:08:21.200 I mean, my parents' generation didn't have those experiences. It 0:08:21.240 --> 0:08:24.040 was much more sex segregated, and women were excluded from 0:08:24.320 --> 0:08:28.520 mainstream sort of competition with men in so many areas. 0:08:28.720 --> 0:08:30.360 But there's a whole generations of men who have come 0:08:30.400 --> 0:08:33.600 of age in a way that it's been normalized, you know, 0:08:34.080 --> 0:08:37.080 and a lot of men have much more likely to 0:08:37.080 --> 0:08:41.560 have female friends and colleagues. And take that as just 0:08:41.800 --> 0:08:44.800 obvious as opposed to something that some radical new, you know, 0:08:45.520 --> 0:08:49.120 development that they have to adjust to. But at the 0:08:49.120 --> 0:08:51.200 same time, I think there's a whole lot of men 0:08:51.240 --> 0:08:54.520 who have done very little speaking out about men's violence 0:08:54.520 --> 0:08:58.040 against women, and a lot of men get really uncomfortable 0:08:58.040 --> 0:08:59.520 about this subject. And I think a lot of men, 0:08:59.520 --> 0:09:02.840 including powerful men, who are really incredibly articulate about a 0:09:02.840 --> 0:09:05.440 whole range of subjects, but when it comes to this subject, 0:09:05.720 --> 0:09:07.160 they are like, oh my god, I don't I don't 0:09:07.200 --> 0:09:08.760 want to go near this, or I don't know exactly 0:09:08.840 --> 0:09:11.240 what to say, or they become inarticulate. And so what 0:09:11.320 --> 0:09:13.760 ends up happening for a lot of men, including powerful men, 0:09:13.800 --> 0:09:18.480 I'm serious, Uh, what they'll do is they'll either remain 0:09:18.520 --> 0:09:20.640 silent because they don't want to screw it up, or 0:09:20.640 --> 0:09:23.520 they're or they're just so uncomfortable, or they'll defer to 0:09:23.559 --> 0:09:27.319 women and women's leadership. And I think on one level, fine, 0:09:27.520 --> 0:09:31.080 we need to, we need to, you know, uplift women's leadership. 0:09:31.120 --> 0:09:34.520 But in a sense that's that's not fair. It's not 0:09:34.559 --> 0:09:37.000 what it's not why why is it women's responsibility? It 0:09:37.000 --> 0:09:39.280 should be men's. That's that's that's a way of hoisting 0:09:39.320 --> 0:09:41.679 off of you know, putting onto women what should be 0:09:41.720 --> 0:09:43.880 what men should be carrying, especially those of us who 0:09:43.960 --> 0:09:47.840 have you know, cultural, political, economic, you know, power and influence. 0:09:48.880 --> 0:09:50.200 And so I think, I think one of the big 0:09:50.320 --> 0:09:53.199 challenges of our time is getting more men who are 0:09:53.240 --> 0:09:56.080 already there in the sense that we're uncomfortable with other 0:09:56.160 --> 0:09:59.640 men's abusive behavior. We don't like it, we know it 0:09:59.679 --> 0:10:02.040 when we see it, but we don't either know what 0:10:02.120 --> 0:10:04.760 to say or we feel uncomfortable around it and don't 0:10:04.760 --> 0:10:06.680 know what to do, and so we retreat. And I think, 0:10:06.760 --> 0:10:08.440 I think what we need to do is not that 0:10:08.480 --> 0:10:10.839 we have to quote unquote convert the men who are 0:10:10.840 --> 0:10:14.000 the most deeply you know, misogynists and angry at women. 0:10:14.400 --> 0:10:15.920 It's that we have to talk to men. I mean, 0:10:16.080 --> 0:10:17.319 that would be a good thing, but I mean that's 0:10:17.360 --> 0:10:20.280 not where I spend my time. I spend my time 0:10:20.280 --> 0:10:24.120 with men who are already knows that, who already know 0:10:24.200 --> 0:10:28.719 that gender justice, gender equality, reducing gender based violence are 0:10:28.800 --> 0:10:31.640 important things, but they don't really know how or what 0:10:31.760 --> 0:10:35.400 to do about it. My goal is to empower them 0:10:35.679 --> 0:10:38.840 and to give them, both conceptually and practically the tools 0:10:39.679 --> 0:10:42.640 to be better leaders. And to be better partners, be 0:10:42.640 --> 0:10:48.160 better you know, fathers, uncles, you know, teachers, coaches, youth workers, 0:10:48.240 --> 0:10:50.719 you know, religious leaders. There's so many men who are 0:10:50.840 --> 0:10:53.960 good men in positions of influence, especially with young people, 0:10:54.000 --> 0:10:56.800 who could be doing so much more than they're doing 0:10:57.040 --> 0:10:57.720 right now. 0:10:57.720 --> 0:11:01.080 Contextualize the issue for and just sort of, you know, 0:11:01.120 --> 0:11:03.880 bring us in a little bit on you know, one 0:11:03.920 --> 0:11:06.959 of the trend lines we've seen in the last few decades. 0:11:07.000 --> 0:11:09.600 I mean, when you started this work, was sort of 0:11:10.080 --> 0:11:13.760 was that an apex of the anxiety in this space? 0:11:14.000 --> 0:11:17.079 Was it? Was there just little data, a little research 0:11:17.120 --> 0:11:21.520 in this space. Are we seeing a diminution and violence 0:11:21.840 --> 0:11:26.160 perpetrated against or against women? Are we seeing a return 0:11:27.080 --> 0:11:30.440 to a little more misogyny? And has it been impacted 0:11:30.480 --> 0:11:34.800 by culture? Social media, has been impacted even by our 0:11:34.800 --> 0:11:35.640 politics today. 0:11:36.320 --> 0:11:38.040 All of that, I think, I think you've touched on 0:11:38.080 --> 0:11:42.160 a whole bunch of really important developments. It's a complicated thing, 0:11:42.240 --> 0:11:44.839 like social change itself is really complicated. So we're making 0:11:45.080 --> 0:11:48.200 all kinds of forward progress. There's reforms in the laws, 0:11:47.920 --> 0:11:53.240 There's a level of consciousness that seeps through, whether it's 0:11:53.280 --> 0:11:57.440 through the education system, through media. There's so many powerful 0:11:57.440 --> 0:12:01.360 and empowered women that are vocal and thoughtful around this 0:12:01.440 --> 0:12:05.920 subject matter to a lesser extent men. But at the 0:12:05.920 --> 0:12:09.880 same time, yes, we have had an enormous backlash against 0:12:09.920 --> 0:12:11.640 some of this progress, and I think, honestly, I think 0:12:11.720 --> 0:12:14.760 right wing populism in the United States and in Europe 0:12:14.800 --> 0:12:16.760 and other parts of the world. But a big part 0:12:16.840 --> 0:12:20.040 of it that doesn't get enough sort of discussion is 0:12:20.080 --> 0:12:25.040 that it's not just resistance to racial integration and immigration 0:12:25.480 --> 0:12:28.880 and the increasing you know, sort of racial and ethnic 0:12:29.960 --> 0:12:32.920 heterogeneity of some of these societies that had previously been 0:12:32.960 --> 0:12:35.160 pretty white. That's a part of it I'm saying. I mean, 0:12:35.200 --> 0:12:38.040 part of it, clearly is right wing populism feeds on 0:12:38.120 --> 0:12:42.000 that energy, that sort of racial grievance. But I think 0:12:42.000 --> 0:12:45.280 it's also a lot of men who are really put 0:12:45.320 --> 0:12:49.800 off by and decentered by feminism and by the LGBTQ revolution, 0:12:51.000 --> 0:12:55.960 which decenters sort of heteronormative heterosexual men in particular, And 0:12:56.040 --> 0:12:58.480 I think that has to be part of the conversation. 0:12:58.559 --> 0:13:00.840 I mean trump Ism, for example, me trump Ism is 0:13:00.880 --> 0:13:05.600 so much of that is about not just white backlash, 0:13:05.720 --> 0:13:13.280 but white male backlash against forward progress by by by women. Basically, 0:13:14.559 --> 0:13:19.400 and this is tricky stuff because you know, can I 0:13:19.400 --> 0:13:21.200 also say I also, I think it's really important that 0:13:21.240 --> 0:13:23.480 I say. People like me who have been doing the 0:13:23.480 --> 0:13:26.319 work that I and we have been doing, have long 0:13:26.360 --> 0:13:29.680 made the connection between men's violence against women, men's violence 0:13:29.720 --> 0:13:33.240 against other men, and men's violence against themselves, because you know, 0:13:33.280 --> 0:13:36.360 suicide is violence turned inward. So the idea that sometimes 0:13:36.440 --> 0:13:38.520 men will say, well, well you talk about violence against women, yo, okay, 0:13:38.520 --> 0:13:40.480 what about violence against men? You know you'll hear this, 0:13:41.040 --> 0:13:42.960 And I write about this in my book, of course, 0:13:43.000 --> 0:13:46.120 because this is so predictable. It's like, well, I've thought 0:13:46.120 --> 0:13:47.880 about that. Of course, we've all thought about we all 0:13:47.960 --> 0:13:50.880 understand this. My friend Michael Kaufman, who's the co founder 0:13:50.920 --> 0:13:53.319 of the White Ribbon Campaign, which is the largest global 0:13:53.360 --> 0:13:56.080 movement of men working to end men's violence against women. 0:13:56.080 --> 0:13:58.760 It's in like sixty something countries and it's a great thing. 0:13:58.800 --> 0:14:01.480 It started after the Montreal men massacre in nineteen eighty nine, 0:14:02.080 --> 0:14:04.200 where a man, a twenty five year old man, lined 0:14:04.240 --> 0:14:07.040 up fourteen women in the Institute of Technology and murdered 0:14:07.080 --> 0:14:10.360 them in cold blood. This is in nineteen eighty nine, 0:14:10.679 --> 0:14:13.920 and he left a suicide note that said feminists, you know, 0:14:14.080 --> 0:14:16.240 blaming feminists for having ruined his life, and he was 0:14:16.280 --> 0:14:18.280 going to take revenge. Well, a group of men created 0:14:18.280 --> 0:14:21.280 the White Ribbon campaign, which is this big public display 0:14:21.320 --> 0:14:23.200 two years later where a man, you know, at the 0:14:23.280 --> 0:14:27.480 end of November every year, men wear white ribbons, Michael 0:14:27.560 --> 0:14:29.440 to say that they're not going to condone men's violence 0:14:29.480 --> 0:14:31.840 against women, be silent in the face of it. Michael 0:14:31.880 --> 0:14:34.720 Kaufman wrote this essay in nineteen eighty seven where he 0:14:34.800 --> 0:14:37.760 connected men's violence against women to men's violence against other men, 0:14:37.800 --> 0:14:40.920 to men's violence against themselves because they're all connected, and 0:14:40.960 --> 0:14:44.320 so no thoughtful person in the twenty first centuries who's 0:14:44.320 --> 0:14:48.600 looking at men's violence against women fails to see that 0:14:49.080 --> 0:14:52.000 all kinds of other things in men's lives are also connected. 0:14:52.320 --> 0:14:54.240 In addition, by the way, look at all the men, 0:14:55.600 --> 0:14:57.600 I mean, who have women in our lives who have 0:14:57.600 --> 0:14:59.840 been assaulted by other men. Who look at all the 0:14:59.840 --> 0:15:02.960 men adult men who have you know, partner partnered with 0:15:03.000 --> 0:15:05.760 women who are sexual assault survivors or domestic mind and 0:15:05.960 --> 0:15:06.720 full disclosure. 0:15:06.760 --> 0:15:09.080 You know, well, my wife who's been very vocal about that, 0:15:09.160 --> 0:15:12.800 and I am what occurred with Harvey Weinstein. 0:15:12.920 --> 0:15:15.880 She has been, and she's been an incredible brave leader 0:15:15.960 --> 0:15:18.560 on this subject. And I love her leadership on this 0:15:18.680 --> 0:15:21.440 and her bravery, and I love working with her on 0:15:21.480 --> 0:15:25.360 these matters absolutely. But I'm saying there's so much I 0:15:25.400 --> 0:15:27.440 don't know what your point. Yes, I don't know any 0:15:27.440 --> 0:15:28.640 man who doesn't have women, So. 0:15:29.520 --> 0:15:31.400 I imagine you go to audiences all the time and 0:15:31.440 --> 0:15:33.840 just ask people to raise their hand. 0:15:33.480 --> 0:15:36.320 Or or or yes or just in terms of my 0:15:37.040 --> 0:15:39.360 social networks and the people that I know, I mean, 0:15:39.400 --> 0:15:41.800 I'm I'm surprised if I meet a man who doesn't 0:15:41.800 --> 0:15:43.920 have women in his life who have been assaulted by 0:15:43.920 --> 0:15:47.240 other men. It's it's not some esoteric subject matter that 0:15:47.360 --> 0:15:48.920 affects some small. 0:15:48.720 --> 0:15:50.720 Is it getting worse? Is it getting better? 0:15:53.000 --> 0:15:57.080 Again? It's a complicated question. I think we've made enormous 0:15:57.080 --> 0:16:00.800 progress until the current regime, and the level we've made 0:16:00.920 --> 0:16:07.200 enormous progress. 0:16:07.680 --> 0:16:09.480 I'm curious. I mean, you just you just put out 0:16:09.480 --> 0:16:12.000 a report that can really quantify that in terms of 0:16:12.200 --> 0:16:16.200 research dollars that are rolling back. Obviously, advocacy in the 0:16:16.280 --> 0:16:18.440 DEI space, which is not I think so much of 0:16:18.440 --> 0:16:22.280 what people focus on DEI is around racial issues, but 0:16:22.720 --> 0:16:25.520 A big part of the movement was a gender issues 0:16:25.520 --> 0:16:29.040 and obviously that's that's under assault. But what else I 0:16:29.080 --> 0:16:33.120 mean is the actual statistics in terms of acts of 0:16:33.200 --> 0:16:37.320 violence perpetuated against women. Is that increasing, decreasing or is 0:16:37.520 --> 0:16:40.240 those research dollars drying up? And we're going to finally 0:16:40.280 --> 0:16:41.880 not really have any understanding of that. 0:16:43.600 --> 0:16:45.800 All of the above, I would I would say we 0:16:45.840 --> 0:16:48.960 have been making progress. There have been some there has 0:16:49.040 --> 0:16:50.920 been some data that showed that we have been making 0:16:50.920 --> 0:16:53.520 progress over the past, you know, twenty five thirty years 0:16:53.560 --> 0:16:56.400 in reducing the incidents of domestic and sexual violence. But 0:16:56.440 --> 0:16:59.600 the flip side is you don't know fully because of 0:16:59.680 --> 0:17:02.960 the vast majority has never reported. And then when you're 0:17:03.000 --> 0:17:06.840 effective at raising consciousness, when you're effective at providing services 0:17:06.840 --> 0:17:09.119 to victims and survivors, when you create an environment in 0:17:09.160 --> 0:17:13.080 an institutional setting, whether it's in a corporation or obviously 0:17:13.160 --> 0:17:14.960 in a school or some other in the military or 0:17:14.960 --> 0:17:17.720 at some other setting, if you create an environment where 0:17:17.800 --> 0:17:22.159 people feel comfortable coming forward to access services or to 0:17:22.200 --> 0:17:24.239 say that this has happened to them, then they're going 0:17:24.280 --> 0:17:26.160 to come forward. But if you create an environment where 0:17:26.840 --> 0:17:31.040 the institution is non responsive, then they're going to remain silent. 0:17:31.280 --> 0:17:33.600 And so when all these programs are being cut, one 0:17:33.600 --> 0:17:36.640 of the effects is people won't come forward because they'll 0:17:36.720 --> 0:17:39.399 be scared that or they'll be doing a cost benefit 0:17:39.400 --> 0:17:41.320 analysis they'll say, you know what, it's not worth it 0:17:41.440 --> 0:17:44.040 because why why do I want to be re injured 0:17:44.080 --> 0:17:47.439 by the system not being responsive to my needs and 0:17:47.520 --> 0:17:51.040 put myself even more in more position of vulnerability. So 0:17:51.800 --> 0:17:54.520 it's complicated in terms of the back and forth. But 0:17:54.600 --> 0:17:56.840 also I do have to say the social media is 0:17:56.880 --> 0:17:59.240 sort of the digital revolution has created a whole new 0:17:59.280 --> 0:18:04.199 set of challenges. It's also created new possibilities obviously for 0:18:04.240 --> 0:18:07.800 connection and for solidarity and community and people connecting with 0:18:07.840 --> 0:18:11.080 each other from their isolated, you know, silos. There's no 0:18:11.200 --> 0:18:13.639 question that it's a mixed bag in terms of this 0:18:13.880 --> 0:18:17.919 subject matter. But the porn culture, the pervasiveness of like 0:18:18.280 --> 0:18:21.239 deeply misogynous, the complication. 0:18:20.760 --> 0:18:23.239 Of women, the objects ownership. 0:18:22.840 --> 0:18:25.520 Yes, and the complete sexual degradation of women in the 0:18:25.520 --> 0:18:28.960 mainstream porn culture that a lot of young people growing 0:18:29.000 --> 0:18:31.240 up with it are seeing that as normal. They're not 0:18:31.280 --> 0:18:33.480 they're not seeing this as like some oh my god, 0:18:33.600 --> 0:18:38.600 some radical you know, uh, you know, new development. They're 0:18:38.640 --> 0:18:40.679 more like, this is what sex is supposed to look like. 0:18:40.720 --> 0:18:44.879 It's it's some of it's just incredibly abusive and cruel. 0:18:45.440 --> 0:18:47.720 We're not talking about sexual expression here. We're talking about 0:18:47.720 --> 0:18:52.080 cruelty and misogyny enshrined in the sexual act. And a 0:18:52.080 --> 0:18:54.119 lot of young guys, I mean, who think that that's 0:18:54.160 --> 0:18:56.359 supposed to be that's normal. What ends up happening in 0:18:56.400 --> 0:18:58.320 some of these relationships is guys are doing things to 0:18:58.359 --> 0:19:01.840 women like in heterosexual relationships, non consensually. They're you know, 0:19:01.920 --> 0:19:04.920 they're starting to strangle them during you know, consensual non 0:19:04.960 --> 0:19:08.760 consensual strangulation during consensual sex and things, thinking that it's 0:19:08.840 --> 0:19:14.680 normal and it's unbelievable. Have you seen adolescens? 0:19:14.760 --> 0:19:16.640 Yeah, I didn't have the guts. I mean, I back 0:19:16.680 --> 0:19:19.080 to my wife Jen, she wanted me to see it, 0:19:19.080 --> 0:19:22.480 and I did the opening scene, realizing the depths of it. 0:19:22.720 --> 0:19:23.879 As a father, you know, I've. 0:19:23.720 --> 0:19:25.960 Got I mean at this age, right. 0:19:25.880 --> 0:19:28.560 I mean, I've got We've got four young kids, two 0:19:28.600 --> 0:19:32.200 boys and uh and social media is just encroaching upon 0:19:32.280 --> 0:19:33.840 their lives and our lives. 0:19:33.520 --> 0:19:36.520 And it found way well I appreciate that, and I 0:19:36.560 --> 0:19:38.879 and I'm going to say this is a spoiler alert. 0:19:38.920 --> 0:19:41.320 But but I have to say that the main actor, 0:19:41.760 --> 0:19:43.760 or one of the one of the main actors, Stephen Graham, 0:19:44.040 --> 0:19:47.560 the British actor, who is also the uh one of 0:19:47.600 --> 0:19:50.840 the creators and the co writer of the piece, brilliant. 0:19:50.880 --> 0:19:53.800 This guy is brilliant, right, I mean he talks about 0:19:53.840 --> 0:19:55.840 this publicly. He talks about it on Jimmy Fallon. So 0:19:55.840 --> 0:19:58.080 I'm not giving away something that isn't like a mainstream 0:19:58.240 --> 0:20:01.320 sort of you know, uh sort of plot point, but 0:20:01.400 --> 0:20:02.920 one of the I think one of the most powerful 0:20:02.920 --> 0:20:04.600 things about the story and one of the reasons why 0:20:04.600 --> 0:20:06.679