WEBVTT - Bandon Deep Dives: Old Macdonald 0:00:00.040 --> 0:00:02.800 I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset. When 0:00:02.800 --> 0:00:04.920 I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset. 0:00:05.000 --> 0:00:05.880 And when I find my. 0:00:05.840 --> 0:00:08.720 Ball in a brid egg Friday egg, the dreaded Frida 0:00:08.720 --> 0:00:11.280 egg Frida egg, Frida egg Brian egg Frida egg. 0:00:11.160 --> 0:00:13.239 Bride egg Lie, I'm about ready to run off of 0:00:13.320 --> 0:00:13.640 the hump. 0:00:35.200 --> 0:00:38.120 All right, Hello and welcome to the Friday Podcast. My 0:00:38.200 --> 0:00:41.479 name is Garrett Morrison, and I'm here today with Andy Johnson. 0:00:41.680 --> 0:00:43.360 How you doing, Andy, I'm doing great. 0:00:43.760 --> 0:00:46.000 Just uh, you know, it's pretty cold here. 0:00:45.840 --> 0:00:47.919 In Chicago, so you're all bundled up. 0:00:48.479 --> 0:00:50.640 I had to walk across the street to the office, 0:00:50.720 --> 0:00:53.199 so it was, uh, you know, one of those it's 0:00:53.240 --> 0:00:56.160 one of those mornings where you gotta kind of be 0:00:56.160 --> 0:00:59.560 be Bundy. It's like one of those mornings your your 0:00:59.560 --> 0:01:02.760 house is letting in coal there you're just ever warm 0:01:02.920 --> 0:01:04.440 the whole day, no matter what. 0:01:05.360 --> 0:01:07.440 Yeah, we're we're getting some of the same in Oregon 0:01:07.520 --> 0:01:09.520 right now, but it's nowhere near the level of what 0:01:09.600 --> 0:01:11.959 I'm sure it is in Chicago. So I don't I 0:01:11.959 --> 0:01:13.960 don't really have a place to complain about it at 0:01:13.959 --> 0:01:15.440 the moment, but it is. 0:01:15.560 --> 0:01:18.000 It's chili yeah, plain a fake winter. 0:01:18.680 --> 0:01:21.240 I think that there's some there's a check the temperatures, 0:01:21.240 --> 0:01:23.679 there's there's a hint of real winter in the air. 0:01:24.200 --> 0:01:26.880 I did my I did my years in Chicago. It 0:01:26.920 --> 0:01:30.280 has felt similar these past couple of mornings. But I'm 0:01:30.280 --> 0:01:31.199 sure it's not as bad. 0:01:31.560 --> 0:01:32.319 Oh whatever. 0:01:33.000 --> 0:01:34.399 Yeah, we don't we don't need to. 0:01:34.600 --> 0:01:37.039 We choose, We choose where we live. So you know, 0:01:37.280 --> 0:01:39.160 that's the that's the reality. 0:01:40.080 --> 0:01:43.600 So we're talking today about Old McDonald. This is the 0:01:43.640 --> 0:01:48.360 second of our Bandon Dune's Deep Dive podcasts, and so 0:01:48.400 --> 0:01:51.920 we're going to go into detail about Old McDonald, which 0:01:51.960 --> 0:01:55.120 opened in twenty ten, was built in two thousand and 0:01:55.160 --> 0:01:59.120 eight and nine. As you may have noticed, we're doing 0:01:59.160 --> 0:02:02.800 these backwards. We started with the most recent course at 0:02:02.800 --> 0:02:05.280 the Bandon Dunes Resort, which is Sheep Ranch, and now 0:02:05.280 --> 0:02:08.440 we're too Old McDonald, which is the second most recent 0:02:08.760 --> 0:02:12.320 eighteen hole course that was built at the resort. And 0:02:12.440 --> 0:02:16.720 the architects were Tom Doak and Jim Urbina co credited. 0:02:17.360 --> 0:02:19.560 They built this in the midst of a recession. Kind 0:02:19.560 --> 0:02:22.920 of incredible that the project happened at all, but a 0:02:22.919 --> 0:02:27.320 fascinating course and looking forward to digging into it, all right, 0:02:27.360 --> 0:02:29.480 So why don't we start by talking a little bit 0:02:29.520 --> 0:02:33.760 about the origin story of old McDonald. So a lot 0:02:33.760 --> 0:02:36.079 of this information that I'm about to give I got 0:02:36.080 --> 0:02:39.160 from the book Dream Golf by Stephen Goodwin, which is 0:02:39.200 --> 0:02:44.400 a good read. So originally Kaiser, Mike Kaiser, wanted to 0:02:44.440 --> 0:02:48.480 build a replica of the Lido, which is this great 0:02:49.120 --> 0:02:52.160 lost course designed by C. B. McDonald and SETH. Rayner 0:02:52.320 --> 0:02:56.200 on Long Island. It was lost during the Depression. A 0:02:56.240 --> 0:02:57.799 lot of people at the time thought it was one 0:02:57.800 --> 0:03:00.800 of the great golf courses in the world. Mike Kaiser 0:03:00.840 --> 0:03:04.320 had gotten obsessed with it and just wanted to resurrect 0:03:04.360 --> 0:03:07.120 it on this piece of land that he had just 0:03:07.400 --> 0:03:11.240 north of Pacific Dunes at the Bandon Dunees Resort. So, yeah, 0:03:11.240 --> 0:03:14.280 his idea was to build a replica of the Lido, 0:03:15.000 --> 0:03:19.440 and he started kind of circulating this idea amongst his friends, 0:03:19.760 --> 0:03:22.520 and he didn't get the reaction that he was expecting. 0:03:22.600 --> 0:03:24.040 A lot of people thought that it would be kind 0:03:24.040 --> 0:03:26.600 of lame. They were like, a replica course, you know, 0:03:26.680 --> 0:03:30.080 that doesn't really sound that exciting. We've seen replica courses before. 0:03:30.200 --> 0:03:34.160 They're usually kind of cheesy and so Kaiser ended up 0:03:34.600 --> 0:03:39.320 shifting gears and pursuing other ideas for this property. And 0:03:39.360 --> 0:03:41.600 around the same time, this must have been in the 0:03:41.600 --> 0:03:45.280 mid two thousands or so, Tom Doak talked him into 0:03:45.320 --> 0:03:51.200 doing a course with basically fresh renditions of Cebe McDonald's 0:03:51.440 --> 0:03:56.000 ideal holes or templates as they're often called. And so 0:03:56.160 --> 0:03:59.080 before people can really understand what's going on at Old McDonald, 0:03:59.120 --> 0:04:01.640 they need to know a little bit about the templates. 0:04:01.680 --> 0:04:05.119 I think Andy, you've written about the templates pretty extensively. 0:04:05.840 --> 0:04:09.120 Could you give just a basic introduction to what the 0:04:09.200 --> 0:04:10.160 ideal holes are? 0:04:11.000 --> 0:04:11.760 Yeah, for sure. 0:04:11.840 --> 0:04:15.440 So Ceeb McDonald obviously people have probably heard of Ceb McDonald. 0:04:15.920 --> 0:04:19.640 He's considered by many the kind of like the godfather 0:04:19.760 --> 0:04:24.720 of golf in America. He was instrumental in building, you know, 0:04:25.400 --> 0:04:28.599 getting golf started in America. He had studied abroad in 0:04:28.680 --> 0:04:30.839 Saint Andrews and that's where he picked up the game. 0:04:30.880 --> 0:04:34.080 And he came back to America and kind of, you know, 0:04:34.160 --> 0:04:36.799 after years of not playing, started picking up the game 0:04:37.279 --> 0:04:41.239 in the Chicago area. So he built Chicago Golf Club, 0:04:41.720 --> 0:04:44.960 which you know, there's seventy five courses that claim to 0:04:45.000 --> 0:04:48.480 be the first golf course in America. It's one of 0:04:48.520 --> 0:04:52.840 the ones that claims that, you know, I'm not going 0:04:52.880 --> 0:04:55.560 to get into the semantics of all of them. But anyways, 0:04:56.440 --> 0:05:00.560 you know, golf architecture at that point was was pretty medial, 0:05:00.920 --> 0:05:04.800 and you know, people were building courses. And before he 0:05:04.920 --> 0:05:08.680 built National Golf Links of America, which is widely considered 0:05:08.720 --> 0:05:12.120 his greatest course, what he did is he went back 0:05:12.160 --> 0:05:15.119 over to the British Isles and studied all the great 0:05:15.160 --> 0:05:19.520 golf courses of the British Isles and some in Europe 0:05:19.680 --> 0:05:23.719 and formulated these ideal holes. Basically, he just picked out 0:05:23.720 --> 0:05:28.200 his favorite holes that all had strategies and different features 0:05:28.240 --> 0:05:32.080 about them, and that became these what now are called 0:05:32.240 --> 0:05:37.160 temple holes. Now these are inspirations off of these ideal 0:05:37.240 --> 0:05:42.800 holes from Great Britain, Ireland, maybe France, that's a debatable 0:05:42.839 --> 0:05:49.160 subject about the Burritz. And basically he came back and 0:05:49.480 --> 0:05:52.240 started building golf courses around these principles. 0:05:52.680 --> 0:05:54.640 So you see these golf holes. 0:05:54.360 --> 0:05:57.000 All over the place, whether it's the Radan, you know, 0:05:57.120 --> 0:06:02.240 the Buritz, the alps Hoole which is from Prestwick, or 0:06:02.320 --> 0:06:06.040 the you know, he got the Bottle Hole, and you 0:06:06.080 --> 0:06:09.000 have all these different hole a road hole from Saint 0:06:09.080 --> 0:06:13.880 Andrew's seventeenth which everybody would know. And and what he 0:06:13.960 --> 0:06:17.960 did was then he took you know, these holes and 0:06:18.000 --> 0:06:21.679 he and he built golf courses using these holes, which 0:06:22.000 --> 0:06:25.800 essentially was a fail safe way to you know, inject 0:06:26.120 --> 0:06:30.440 good strategic golf. Right, these are sound holes from principles 0:06:30.520 --> 0:06:34.960 and adopted them over a wide range of golf courses 0:06:34.960 --> 0:06:38.360 in different settings. And Seth Rayner was really somebody that 0:06:38.720 --> 0:06:40.159 you know, did this at a large scale. 0:06:40.160 --> 0:06:40.560 See B. M. 0:06:40.520 --> 0:06:43.760 MacDonald only built a handful of golf courses for his 0:06:43.920 --> 0:06:46.560 rich friends that he wanted to appease, and he never 0:06:46.640 --> 0:06:49.719 took a fee. So Seth Rayner then and Charles Banks 0:06:49.760 --> 0:06:53.520 later kind of replicated this model, and you still see 0:06:53.520 --> 0:06:55.640 it today. You see a lot of temples used by 0:06:55.680 --> 0:06:59.040 modern architects. So it's you know, it's not necessarily like 0:06:59.120 --> 0:07:02.080 a replica hole, if that makes sense. It's more of 0:07:02.160 --> 0:07:05.080 like principles and they're adapted to their landscape. And I 0:07:05.080 --> 0:07:07.880 think that's a good way to describe old mac because 0:07:07.920 --> 0:07:10.520 these are these do not look like Seth Rainer and 0:07:10.600 --> 0:07:15.119 CB McDonald's templates per se. The shaping is much more 0:07:15.840 --> 0:07:19.080 I don't know, modern, but much more natural. They aren't 0:07:19.120 --> 0:07:22.880 as manufactured an engineer, which makes sense, you know, today's 0:07:22.960 --> 0:07:26.080 machinery allows you to build things a little bit more 0:07:26.120 --> 0:07:28.960 subtly and fit them into the ground more than more 0:07:29.000 --> 0:07:31.400 so than when Seth Rainer and Charles Banks were building 0:07:31.440 --> 0:07:36.960 these with steam shovels. So I think the old Mac 0:07:37.200 --> 0:07:41.119 is a modern rendition of what CEB McDonald would build. 0:07:41.400 --> 0:07:44.640 Is kind of the premise behind the golf course. 0:07:45.200 --> 0:07:49.480 Tom Doak essentially did to Cbe McDonald's templates as Ceb 0:07:49.640 --> 0:07:54.840 McDonald did to the original versions of his templates, right. 0:07:54.920 --> 0:07:59.920 He took this inspiration and remixed it and made it 0:08:00.080 --> 0:08:03.400 his own, And that really is what McDonald and Rayner 0:08:03.440 --> 0:08:05.200 were doing. Rayner, by the way, I don't think we 0:08:05.240 --> 0:08:08.280 introduced as McDonald's protege. He was an engineer and he 0:08:08.360 --> 0:08:12.880 ended up building a great number of courses after his partnership, 0:08:13.000 --> 0:08:14.400 his initial partnership with Cbe. 0:08:14.840 --> 0:08:18.000 What happened is people would inquire to Stebe McDonald and 0:08:18.120 --> 0:08:20.640 Rayner would go build the course, you know, like if 0:08:20.720 --> 0:08:23.760 it wasn't one of Cebe McDonald's rich friends or somewhere 0:08:23.760 --> 0:08:26.880 he wanted to have a house, he didn't build Rayner, right. 0:08:27.880 --> 0:08:32.640 So I think that often people misunderstand McDonald and Rayner's 0:08:32.640 --> 0:08:36.600 templates in that they think that they're copies of these 0:08:36.640 --> 0:08:39.839 holes and that they're just sort of replicating them at 0:08:39.880 --> 0:08:43.439 every course they build, and that's not quite accurate. These 0:08:43.440 --> 0:08:47.839 templates are always being adapted to individual landscapes, and then 0:08:47.880 --> 0:08:51.400 the ideas for the templates themselves. What the template holes 0:08:51.440 --> 0:08:55.640 were is often very different from what the inspiration was 0:08:55.960 --> 0:08:59.520 in at whatever course it was in Great Britain and Ireland. 0:09:00.280 --> 0:09:03.600 You know, they were really C. B. MacDonald, Seth Rayner 0:09:03.800 --> 0:09:08.160 designs these template holes. They were fundamentally their ideas just 0:09:08.280 --> 0:09:11.760 based on these original examples. And so I think that 0:09:12.080 --> 0:09:14.240 a good way to understand the template holes or the 0:09:14.280 --> 0:09:18.959 ideal holes is that they were really a powerful marketing 0:09:19.000 --> 0:09:23.439 device and an educational device for the American golfing public. 0:09:23.840 --> 0:09:27.280 They're saying, you know, this is what golf architecture is. 0:09:27.320 --> 0:09:31.240 It's kind of incorporating some of these strategies into different holes, 0:09:31.679 --> 0:09:34.480 and it's a very easy way to understand what makes 0:09:34.800 --> 0:09:37.960 a well designed golf hole for a public at the 0:09:37.960 --> 0:09:41.920 time that just really wasn't very knowledgeable in general about 0:09:41.960 --> 0:09:42.839 golf architecture. 0:09:42.960 --> 0:09:43.200 Yeah. 0:09:43.240 --> 0:09:45.600 I mean, that's a great way to explain it. Because 0:09:46.120 --> 0:09:50.320 National Golf Links changed the landscape of golf architecture America. 0:09:50.440 --> 0:09:53.760 It was really like what many considered the first great 0:09:54.240 --> 0:09:57.720 golf course in America and it led to so many 0:09:57.760 --> 0:10:01.880 courses that existed being redesigned. This is kind of right 0:10:01.920 --> 0:10:05.800 when Donald Ross was starting to you know, build his 0:10:05.920 --> 0:10:09.240 design career in America, and you know, he brought a 0:10:09.240 --> 0:10:13.160 lot of ideas from being you know, living in Scotland, 0:10:13.520 --> 0:10:17.560 you know, and the this took golf out of the 0:10:17.679 --> 0:10:21.360 Victorian kind of era of golf course design. This this 0:10:21.480 --> 0:10:23.880 idea and you hit it on the nail on the head. 0:10:24.160 --> 0:10:27.319 It's about the principles and if you study the templates, 0:10:28.040 --> 0:10:31.600 you you start to understand, you know, what strategy is 0:10:31.920 --> 0:10:33.920 and the ideas of variety. 0:10:34.000 --> 0:10:34.160 You know. 0:10:34.280 --> 0:10:36.680 One of the things that the templates do, you know, 0:10:36.840 --> 0:10:38.800 with the par three's, and I think those are the 0:10:38.800 --> 0:10:42.000 holes that become most famous and synonymous a because they're 0:10:42.040 --> 0:10:44.760 easy to remember. They're one shot holes. You know, they 0:10:44.760 --> 0:10:48.160 have you know, very defined characteristics. But like one of 0:10:48.160 --> 0:10:50.520 the brilliant things about the templates and the par threes 0:10:50.640 --> 0:10:52.680 is you get one hundred and thirty yard Part three, 0:10:53.080 --> 0:10:56.640 one hundred and seventy yard part three, hundred yard par 0:10:56.760 --> 0:10:59.680 three and like a two thirty part three, you got variety. 0:10:59.800 --> 0:11:02.360 Like it's just like a simple thing like that. But 0:11:02.800 --> 0:11:05.200 it doesn't mean you're not going to have four two 0:11:05.240 --> 0:11:08.720 hundred yard part threes unless the templates are playing nothing 0:11:08.840 --> 0:11:10.440 like the principles of them, you know. 0:11:11.120 --> 0:11:15.080 Yeah, it was just a way of sneaking solid architectural 0:11:15.120 --> 0:11:18.719 principles into courses and being able to communicate what they 0:11:18.720 --> 0:11:19.280 were doing. 0:11:19.400 --> 0:11:22.840 Now, some would say, you know, there are opinions that 0:11:23.000 --> 0:11:26.120 Rayner wasn't that talented and this was a way for 0:11:26.240 --> 0:11:28.680 him to be a good architect, was just simply following 0:11:28.679 --> 0:11:31.160 these rules. But like that's the point of the templates, 0:11:31.240 --> 0:11:34.360 is like if you build these golf holes in different 0:11:34.440 --> 0:11:36.520 landscapes and you don't you know, and you just like 0:11:36.600 --> 0:11:40.400 kind of fit them to the landscape these these strategies, you're. 0:11:40.280 --> 0:11:42.000 Not going to build a bad golf course. 0:11:43.160 --> 0:11:45.480 And I think there's definitely an opinion out there that 0:11:45.600 --> 0:11:49.600 Rayner is overrated or that Rayner wasn't a very talented architect. 0:11:49.600 --> 0:11:52.720 There are definitely people who hold that opinion. I think 0:11:52.760 --> 0:11:55.760 maybe the more nuanced version of that opinion is that 0:11:56.679 --> 0:11:59.840 McDonald and Rayner represented a transitional stage and golf course 0:12:00.040 --> 0:12:05.080 architecture and the ensuing generation of golf architects in America, 0:12:05.480 --> 0:12:08.200 the golden age of golf architecture as we call it, 0:12:09.040 --> 0:12:13.400 moved beyond that, kind of took that initial breakthrough that 0:12:13.559 --> 0:12:17.920 McDonald and Rayner made in strategic golf architecture, ran with 0:12:18.000 --> 0:12:20.800 it and made something original out of it. And so 0:12:20.840 --> 0:12:23.599 there are some people who say that, yeah, McDonald and 0:12:23.679 --> 0:12:26.320 rain are important, but we've moved beyond that. Now we've 0:12:26.320 --> 0:12:29.240 moved past that, let's leave that behind. Let's come up 0:12:29.280 --> 0:12:31.400 with truly original whole ideas. 0:12:31.679 --> 0:12:34.319 Yeah, and I think, you know, that's that's a good 0:12:34.360 --> 0:12:35.040 way to put it. 0:12:35.120 --> 0:12:38.400 And one of the things with like Rainer and McDonald 0:12:38.440 --> 0:12:42.640 golf courses, every single golf course has holes that aren't 0:12:42.679 --> 0:12:46.840 tepplate holes that are you know, you know a lot 0:12:46.880 --> 0:12:49.960 of them occupy some of the best ground, you know, 0:12:50.000 --> 0:12:52.200 I think of like Saint Louis Country Club, they have 0:12:52.240 --> 0:12:54.760 a part they have five par threes and one of 0:12:54.800 --> 0:12:58.000 which is called the Crater Hole. It's the only only 0:12:58.080 --> 0:13:01.040 one of it and it's it's set into this hillside. 0:13:01.080 --> 0:13:03.480 It's a really dramatic. You play from one one ledge 0:13:03.520 --> 0:13:05.320 to the other ledge. You go to Shore Acres and 0:13:05.360 --> 0:13:08.319 you've got the eleventh hole and the fifteenth hole, two 0:13:08.360 --> 0:13:11.480 of the greatest you know holes in America that are 0:13:11.480 --> 0:13:13.960 not template holes. You know there they are you know, 0:13:14.120 --> 0:13:17.640 original designs, so you know there the templates were a guide, 0:13:17.960 --> 0:13:20.240 you know. And I think at Old mac you see 0:13:20.280 --> 0:13:23.640 the same thing, like, there are you know, template holes, 0:13:23.640 --> 0:13:26.199 but there also are a few that are not template holes. 0:13:26.520 --> 0:13:29.720 Yeah, so we could keep going down this rabbit hole 0:13:29.720 --> 0:13:31.840 for a while discussing MacDonald and Rainer. 0:13:31.960 --> 0:13:32.840 I think that's important. 0:13:32.880 --> 0:13:36.079 While we're here, we can call this out. Is our website, 0:13:36.120 --> 0:13:40.280 the fridagg dot com has extensive materials on each, not each, 0:13:40.360 --> 0:13:43.280 not every template, but maybe one day we'll get to that, 0:13:43.720 --> 0:13:45.840 get back to that, but a lot of the templates, 0:13:45.840 --> 0:13:48.240 and we have profiles on McDonald and Rayner if you 0:13:48.240 --> 0:13:49.000 want to read more. 0:13:49.800 --> 0:13:51.880 And I think, by the way, one of the reasons 0:13:51.880 --> 0:13:54.440 that you wrote this template series is that it was 0:13:54.640 --> 0:13:59.400 a relatively easy and accessible way to introduce the basic 0:13:59.480 --> 0:14:03.200 principles golf course architecture. The template series is often where 0:14:03.240 --> 0:14:06.360 people start on our website, and I think that's that's 0:14:06.440 --> 0:14:10.160 really representative of how the templates functioned for McDonald and 0:14:10.240 --> 0:14:13.160 Rayner in the first place. They were using these as 0:14:13.800 --> 0:14:18.280 educational devices, and it's pretty amazing that they still function 0:14:18.400 --> 0:14:20.880 the same way today. And one more thing that I 0:14:20.920 --> 0:14:23.920 should add before we move into old McDonald is that, 0:14:24.520 --> 0:14:27.640 you know, in this debate about whether Rayner particularly was 0:14:27.800 --> 0:14:31.680 a talented architect, I think that when you go actually 0:14:31.760 --> 0:14:36.240 play a Rainer golf course, you see why he was 0:14:36.640 --> 0:14:40.200 so well respected and why he remains so well respected. 0:14:40.720 --> 0:14:44.320 You know, the courses don't feel like a bunch of 0:14:44.720 --> 0:14:48.120 replica holes at all. They feel like these holes kind 0:14:48.120 --> 0:14:51.080 of belong in the landscape, and there are little subtle 0:14:51.120 --> 0:14:53.960 adjustments here and there that Rayner makes with every hole 0:14:54.520 --> 0:14:57.720 to adapt them to the land that he was working with. 0:14:58.160 --> 0:15:00.280 And so I think the idea of rain as a 0:15:00.280 --> 0:15:04.640 guy who just kind of pasted certain template holes on 0:15:04.760 --> 0:15:07.360 top of a landscape and didn't give much thought about 0:15:07.400 --> 0:15:11.680 how to weave them into that landscape is pretty unfair 0:15:11.920 --> 0:15:16.720 to what he actually did at these courses. This episode 0:15:16.760 --> 0:15:18.800 of the Frida Egg Podcast is brought to you by 0:15:18.880 --> 0:15:22.400 Zero Restriction. So on our trip to Bandon Dune's last 0:15:22.440 --> 0:15:26.000 November we encountered all kinds of weather. We played bandoned 0:15:26.000 --> 0:15:29.760 trails and torrential rains and gale force winds, and we 0:15:29.840 --> 0:15:34.040 played Old Mac on a beautiful, clear, but somewhat chilly day. 0:15:34.800 --> 0:15:38.040 So we needed performance apparel that was really versatile, that 0:15:38.120 --> 0:15:42.160 could handle anything that the Oregon Coast threw at us. Thankfully, 0:15:42.400 --> 0:15:46.480 we were outfitted on this trip by Zero Restriction. Zero 0:15:46.560 --> 0:15:50.520 Restriction makes excellent cutting edge outerwear, and we actually got 0:15:50.560 --> 0:15:52.600 to try a couple of new items from the ZR 0:15:52.720 --> 0:15:56.760 collection on this trip, including the Mayweather Pullover and the 0:15:56.800 --> 0:16:00.720 Wave Hybrid. 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Kind of 0:16:43.360 --> 0:16:46.680 a unique arrangement that they had here. First of all, 0:16:46.720 --> 0:16:50.960 Mike Kaiser requested that Tom Doak and Jim Orbida share 0:16:51.000 --> 0:16:54.480 the design credit. Jim Orbino was a longtime associate of 0:16:54.520 --> 0:16:57.680 Tom Doaks at Renaissance Golf Design, and this time through 0:16:57.760 --> 0:17:01.440 Kaiser said, why don't you guys design course together and 0:17:01.520 --> 0:17:05.080 you'll get a co credit on it. Essentially what happened 0:17:05.119 --> 0:17:10.240 is that Urbina supervised construction and Doak made regular visits, 0:17:10.240 --> 0:17:12.560 so it was similar to an arrangement that they might 0:17:12.600 --> 0:17:14.119 have had in the past when kind of. 0:17:14.119 --> 0:17:17.159 How he's got it set up with all of his associate. 0:17:17.080 --> 0:17:21.040 Yeah, that's absolutely the usual arrangement. Just in this case 0:17:21.119 --> 0:17:24.240 Kaiser was saying, this is a co credit, so sort 0:17:24.240 --> 0:17:26.960 of interesting. I think one of the reasons was that 0:17:27.080 --> 0:17:30.520 Kaiser at the time didn't want the same architect to 0:17:30.560 --> 0:17:34.000 design two courses at Bandon Dune's and Tom Doak had 0:17:34.040 --> 0:17:37.160 already designed Pacific Dunes, and so Kaiser was like, let's 0:17:37.160 --> 0:17:41.400 do something new. Let's have this be a dok Urbina project. Now, 0:17:41.440 --> 0:17:44.880 in addition to that, there was an old McDonald advisory 0:17:44.920 --> 0:17:49.320 panel consisting of Bradley Klein, who is a golf course writer, 0:17:50.160 --> 0:17:54.000 George Botto who was a historical researcher who wrote The 0:17:54.080 --> 0:17:57.560 Evangelist of Golf, which is a biography of C. B. MacDonald. 0:17:58.160 --> 0:18:01.199 It's really a landmark work and I think golf course writing. 0:18:02.359 --> 0:18:05.640 So he was on the advisory panel, and then Carl Olson, 0:18:05.760 --> 0:18:10.080 who was the superintendent at National Golf Links. And Olsen 0:18:10.640 --> 0:18:13.520 is one of the kind of early restorers of a 0:18:13.560 --> 0:18:16.120 classic golf course. He was doing work at National Golf 0:18:16.160 --> 0:18:19.280 Links to bring it back to the original design in 0:18:19.320 --> 0:18:22.399 the early eighties. I believe Carl Olsen was just in 0:18:22.480 --> 0:18:26.280 his capacity as a superintendent. So that was the old 0:18:26.359 --> 0:18:30.160 mac advisory panel and they were involved in this process 0:18:30.240 --> 0:18:34.800 as well. It was a very kind of collaborative design process. 0:18:34.960 --> 0:18:37.919 I think at times it was combative. You know. There 0:18:37.960 --> 0:18:41.720 are some stories in Dream Golf about debates that this 0:18:41.840 --> 0:18:44.960 team had about various features on the golf course. They 0:18:45.040 --> 0:18:48.520 all kind of had input and obviously there would be disagreements. 0:18:49.080 --> 0:18:53.560 One disagreement was about this burn or this little waterway 0:18:54.040 --> 0:18:56.800 that Jim Orbino wanted to put in on the seventeenth hole, 0:18:57.359 --> 0:19:00.399 and Urbina was really pushing hard for this. He was 0:19:00.800 --> 0:19:03.919 bringing his case directly to Mike Kaiser and saying, I 0:19:04.000 --> 0:19:07.200 really want this burns. It's daring, it it's audacious, it's 0:19:07.200 --> 0:19:10.359 a memorable feature. And then Tom Doak was on the 0:19:10.359 --> 0:19:13.160 other side of it, saying, I don't think this really 0:19:13.200 --> 0:19:15.879 belongs in this landscape. There's nothing else on the course 0:19:15.920 --> 0:19:19.320 that really tells you that this might be here. And 0:19:19.440 --> 0:19:22.520 so there was some real disagreement about this particular feature, 0:19:22.920 --> 0:19:26.040 and eventually Tom Doak's side of the argument won out, 0:19:26.160 --> 0:19:29.400 and they did not build the burn on the seventeenth hole. 0:19:29.840 --> 0:19:32.520 But if you read Dream Golf, there's a whole, really 0:19:32.640 --> 0:19:37.160 kind of in depth narrative of this disagreement that they had, 0:19:37.200 --> 0:19:39.560 and I think it gives you an idea of what 0:19:39.640 --> 0:19:42.560 this design process was like. So maybe we should get 0:19:42.600 --> 0:19:45.840 to the course itself. Now, just talking about Old Mac 0:19:46.119 --> 0:19:50.320 in general, what do you think makes it distinct from 0:19:50.680 --> 0:19:56.000 the other bandoned courses. I think, well, aside from the templates, 0:19:56.040 --> 0:19:58.880 I mean that the ideal whole, that whole concept that 0:19:58.920 --> 0:20:01.680 makes it unique. Just like if you didn't know about 0:20:01.720 --> 0:20:04.520 that walked out onto the golf course, what would be 0:20:04.560 --> 0:20:05.520 different about it? 0:20:05.520 --> 0:20:09.160 It's the biggest golf course there in the sense of 0:20:09.400 --> 0:20:12.800 it's got the biggest fairways, it's got the biggest scale. 0:20:13.080 --> 0:20:15.520 I want to you know, I think scale gets thrown 0:20:15.600 --> 0:20:17.760 around a lot. It's kind of a buzzword. But it's 0:20:17.800 --> 0:20:21.159 got the biggest scale, it's got the biggest greens. It 0:20:21.280 --> 0:20:24.680 navigates over this huge ridge that is a it's a 0:20:24.800 --> 0:20:28.040 dune that runs all the way from you know, Old 0:20:28.119 --> 0:20:32.440 mac through Pacific Dunes, through band and dunes and through 0:20:33.119 --> 0:20:36.800 bandon trails. It plays over this ridge and it's just 0:20:36.840 --> 0:20:39.760 a it's a large scale golf course where all the 0:20:39.800 --> 0:20:43.040 features are are pretty much big. You know, you have 0:20:43.119 --> 0:20:46.640 big greens, you have big wide fairways, and you have 0:20:46.680 --> 0:20:50.040 some big hills that you kind of play over, dunes 0:20:50.080 --> 0:20:51.800 that you play over and onto. 0:20:52.800 --> 0:20:54.840 And this is what you mean, by the way, when 0:20:54.840 --> 0:20:57.200 you mean when you say this course has big scale, 0:20:57.640 --> 0:21:01.080 you mean the combination of big golf course features like 0:21:01.160 --> 0:21:05.120 greens and fairways and bunkers and big landforms. You don't 0:21:05.160 --> 0:21:07.679 just mean there's big landforms, because there's big landforms on 0:21:07.760 --> 0:21:11.560 every band in Dune's course. But Old McDonald is different 0:21:11.560 --> 0:21:14.159 in the sense that the scale of the fairways and 0:21:14.200 --> 0:21:16.920 greens competes with the scale of the. 0:21:16.920 --> 0:21:21.560 Landforms exactly, so it's a big ballpark. And then you know, 0:21:21.840 --> 0:21:25.159 with that, it's the only course that doesn't like just 0:21:25.760 --> 0:21:27.879 have you on the ocean outside of trails. You know, 0:21:27.960 --> 0:21:31.080 trails kind of plays you go up into the forest, 0:21:31.160 --> 0:21:35.560 but it's the only coastal course that's not really you're 0:21:35.560 --> 0:21:36.480 not staring at. 0:21:36.320 --> 0:21:37.760 The ocean most of the day. 0:21:38.119 --> 0:21:41.280 So it's the least if you go to the resort, 0:21:41.359 --> 0:21:43.840 it's the least popular at golf course. It gets the 0:21:43.920 --> 0:21:47.480 least amount of rounds. That is very true. Should it 0:21:48.080 --> 0:21:50.920 I don't know. I don't think it should. In my book, 0:21:51.000 --> 0:21:53.399 I wouldn't have it be there. I think the conversation 0:21:54.080 --> 0:21:58.040 about Old mac always kind of tends to revolve around 0:21:58.080 --> 0:22:01.720 what it doesn't have, which is ocean views, rather than 0:22:01.840 --> 0:22:04.359 what it does have. And I think this is like 0:22:04.400 --> 0:22:08.400 an important thing with with Old McDonald and understanding it. 0:22:08.400 --> 0:22:11.520 It's arguably got the best starting holes in the best 0:22:11.560 --> 0:22:15.639 finishing holes. It also has the best playing conditions at 0:22:15.640 --> 0:22:19.760 the resort in my opinion, where it's it's fescue, it's 0:22:20.000 --> 0:22:23.240 firm and fast almost all the time. And then you 0:22:23.280 --> 0:22:26.440 know it also has the most day to day variety 0:22:26.560 --> 0:22:29.800 because of the large scale that it has, the wide 0:22:29.840 --> 0:22:33.400 fairways in these greens, they're huge. That really can set 0:22:33.440 --> 0:22:36.960 the golf course up wildly different day to day. Now, 0:22:37.880 --> 0:22:40.920