Speaker 1: An attempted compliment results in complaints, which turns into controversy,
Speaker 1: and it involves to the most visible and accomplished women
Speaker 1: in the United States today. Hey, folks, welcome to this
Speaker 1: latest episode of Amy and TJ Robes. We're recording this
Speaker 1: one not from the studio per usual, but we're sitting
Speaker 1: around the kitchen table right now. Which one do you
Speaker 1: prefer where you most comfortable in the studio or sitting here?
Speaker 2: Well, I'm comfortable right now here. But typically when we
Speaker 2: do podcasts, I do like to go to the studio
Speaker 2: because that's just broadcast home for me. I don't know.
Speaker 2: I like to have I like to go somewhere, sit down,
Speaker 2: have people listening, have reaction all of that, because I
Speaker 2: think we're used to being in the studio.
Speaker 1: Are there some topics that you think you're more comfortable
Speaker 1: discussing in our private because we've set around this actual
Speaker 1: kitchen table before. It has some pretty tough discussions. Do
Speaker 1: you ever feel like the type of discussion or the
Speaker 1: tone is more appropriate when we're able to be this intimate.
Speaker 1: There's nobody else in the house with us right now,
Speaker 1: just us.
Speaker 2: Except for Brodie the dog, but he even left I
Speaker 2: think we bored him. Wow, he left the room and
Speaker 2: we didn't even know. Yes, I hear what you're saying.
Speaker 2: So when we have some more intimate conversations, and we've
Speaker 2: had a couple of podcasts where we've done from home
Speaker 2: and they've felt good here just because it's been about
Speaker 2: something that was either personal, deeply personal, or just I
Speaker 2: don't know, heavy, Yeah, heavi.
Speaker 1: Are we making the right call today? Folks? Are we
Speaker 1: have deciding? We'll tell you the story here in a
Speaker 1: second of exactly how we ended up at the kitchen
Speaker 1: table instead of in the studio. But the topic, I
Speaker 1: think most folks robes are maybe up on it because
Speaker 1: it's been in the headlines for almost the past certainly
Speaker 1: the past several days as we're recording. But can you
Speaker 1: get folks caught up if they're not on what was
Speaker 1: a daytime interview that the headlines that came out of
Speaker 1: it were not necessarily what either person involved in the
Speaker 1: interview wanted.
Speaker 2: That's right, Drew Barrymore interviewing Vice President Kamala Harris. It
Speaker 2: took place last Monday, or at least it aired last
Speaker 2: Monday and Monday, April twenty ninth. I believe is when
Speaker 2: the interview actually took place. And you know, Drew Barrymore,
Speaker 2: if you've ever watched the show, has a very unique
Speaker 2: style to her interviewing. She gets she likes to be
Speaker 2: up close and personal. She doesn't sit. I mean, she's
Speaker 2: not a broadcaster, she's not a journalist. She's an actress
Speaker 2: and she's a talk show host and she has her
Speaker 2: own unique style and that's how she rolls, and it's
Speaker 2: it's been very much who she is. And I've interviewed
Speaker 2: her a couple of times and she wasn't any different
Speaker 2: in that sense when she was interviewing Kamala Harris. She's
Speaker 2: almost immediately intimate with the person she's interviewing, which is
Speaker 2: off putting a lot to some I think maybe when
Speaker 2: they watch it, but that is who Drew Barrymore is.
Speaker 1: But she said, for folks that don't know, I don't
Speaker 1: watch the show, immediately intimate. I didn't understand what that
Speaker 1: meant because I'm just I'm very obviously familiar with through
Speaker 1: Barra Moore's and that she has a show, but I
Speaker 1: still and seeing clips over the years, didn't get that
Speaker 1: she essentially almost will sit close enough to certainly hold hands,
Speaker 1: but you could almost your face to face in a way.
Speaker 1: And how she goes about it, it's her things.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and she does hold hands a lot of times.
Speaker 2: She's touchy feely and she leans in. And if you're
Speaker 2: watching it at home, and okay, someone like me, I
Speaker 2: like personal space. And if anyone out there is the same,
Speaker 2: if you were to have a conversation with her or
Speaker 2: she she likes to be up in your personal space.
Speaker 2: It's just who she is. And so she didn't make
Speaker 2: any distinction when she was interviewing the Vice President of
Speaker 2: the United States, which for any of us who have
Speaker 2: interviewed people in certain positions, you're even more respectful in
Speaker 2: a way. Just you're almost respecting the position in a
Speaker 2: way and the person. And so there's a distance and
Speaker 2: there's a formality that you usually see in those types
Speaker 2: of interviews that Drew Barrymore just kept doing her thing
Speaker 2: her way, and.
Speaker 1: So to a certain degree, I wouldn't want to knock
Speaker 1: her for that. No, it might not have been my call,
Speaker 1: my choice how I went about it, but my style.
Speaker 1: Even the fact that she's sitting with her on a couch.
Speaker 1: Most people don't interview world leaders on a couch first
Speaker 1: of all. But there's some part of me gives Drew
Speaker 1: Berhmer a credit for sticking to who she is and
Speaker 1: not deviating from that. Even if it's the vice president.
Speaker 1: Some argue she should have deviated.
Speaker 2: Correct And so it was just I don't think I've
Speaker 2: ever seen an interview even if you had the volume
Speaker 2: down and you weren't listening to what was being said.
Speaker 2: Just by watching it, it would seem odd when you're
Speaker 2: talking about interviewing a world leader. But to your point,
Speaker 2: and what I'm saying, that is the way Drew barry
Speaker 2: Moore is. She was sitting cross legged on the couch,
Speaker 2: leaning into talking to the vice president. But yes, it
Speaker 2: wasn't just the body language. More importantly, what made headlines
Speaker 2: was what came out of the interview and the focus
Speaker 2: of the interview, and specifically something that Drew Barrymore said,
Speaker 2: And I actually have a quote because as they were
Speaker 2: talking about her role as vice president and the state
Speaker 2: of the world, Drew Barrymore said, and I'll quote her here,
Speaker 2: I keep thinking in my head that we all need
Speaker 2: a mom. I've been thinking that we all need a
Speaker 2: tremendous hug right in the world, right now, but in
Speaker 2: our country, we need you to be Mamla of the country.
Speaker 2: And this all comes after Kamala Harris told Drew Barrymore
Speaker 2: and she said this plenty of times that her step
Speaker 2: children or her bonus children as she calls them, call
Speaker 2: her Mama La. Of course she's taking her name Kamala
Speaker 2: and mixing it with mom, but that's a personal name.
Speaker 2: So when she says this and tells the Vice President
Speaker 2: of the United States that we need her to be
Speaker 2: Mamla of the country, you can immediately see Kamala's reaction.
Speaker 1: Okay, So if you haven't seen the interview yet and
Speaker 1: you heard what Ropes just said, this is where we're
Speaker 1: gonna pick it up. And this is why we are
Speaker 1: sitting around a kitchen table right now and not in
Speaker 1: the studio, because we will give you some insight into
Speaker 1: what took place with us. We were recording another episode
Speaker 1: several days ago and talking about various topics, and our
Speaker 1: producer in the room at the time Emma turned her
Speaker 1: while we were in the middle. We were in the
Speaker 1: middle of recording. She had her laptop up and she
Speaker 1: turned it to us and showed us an op ed
Speaker 1: from Charles Blow Charles Mblow from The New York Times,
Speaker 1: and we only saw the title of the article, which
Speaker 1: was Kamala Harris is not America's Mamla, She's the vice president.
Speaker 1: So that's all we saw. And they were trying to
Speaker 1: signal to us, hey, is this something you all want
Speaker 1: to talk about. We weren't up on it enough at
Speaker 1: the time because we didn't read through the article. We
Speaker 1: just saw the headline. We weren't up on it and
Speaker 1: decided we just kind a gesture to her, No, we're
Speaker 1: not gonna touch it right now. Thank god we didn't.
Speaker 2: There was so much more to as they say, unpack.
Speaker 1: Yes, So we didn't touch it at the time. So
Speaker 1: Robes and I then we go home. We decide to
Speaker 1: do a little experiment. We didn't read the opbed, we
Speaker 1: didn't google, we didn't read articles. Instead, what we decided
Speaker 1: to do was watch the interview ourselves, Robes watching it
Speaker 1: on her own. I watched it on my own. Then
Speaker 1: we came together and decided and we're gonna talk about it.
Speaker 1: So your react this interview that's people are calling cringe
Speaker 1: worthy and controversial and people taking issue with Before we
Speaker 1: read a single article, what was your reaction. Remind people here.
Speaker 1: We've talked about it since, but initially your reaction to
Speaker 1: the interview was.
Speaker 2: What she stayed true to who she was. But so
Speaker 2: I wanted that to be clear that I wasn't faulting
Speaker 2: her in any way for her interview style, because she's
Speaker 2: a TV host with her own personality and brings her
Speaker 2: own way of doing things to the show, and that's
Speaker 2: her business and it's her show, it's the Drew Barrymore Show.
Speaker 2: But I just said it was really hard to watch,
Speaker 2: incredibly uncomfortable to watch, not just because of how close
Speaker 2: she was talking to her, but the fact that she
Speaker 2: never once talked about any of the accolades and any
Speaker 2: of the hard work and any of the really impressive
Speaker 2: things that Kamala Harris has done throughout her career to
Speaker 2: become vice President of the United States, what she's done
Speaker 2: in office, and what she hopes to do if she
Speaker 2: and Joe Biden are reelected. I mean, that is what
Speaker 2: you would kind of expect for her to be able
Speaker 2: to talk about what she's done, what she wants to do,
Speaker 2: and you can talk about it in an uplifting female
Speaker 2: way where you're talking about this is the first female
Speaker 2: vice president of the United States, so many places you
Speaker 2: could go, so to immediately talk about step children, bonus children,
Speaker 2: being a mom, how she laughs, It just it just
Speaker 2: felt really uncomfortable to me, just because there were so
Speaker 2: many other more important things she could be talking to
Speaker 2: her about as a powerful, intelligent, accomplished woman. So that
Speaker 2: was my cringe. That was the cringiness for me. I
Speaker 2: felt uncomfortable with the whole just mom centered vibe. It
Speaker 2: just felt forced and it felt like a an uncomfortable
Speaker 2: narrative that could have been a part of the interview,
Speaker 2: but shouldn't have been the focus of the interview.
Speaker 1: So that's where I will well, I will ask you
Speaker 1: before we get into my reaction to the interview, I
Speaker 1: will ask Kamla Harris has press, press conference. She's around
Speaker 1: a press core, right. They follow her around to which
Speaker 1: she's often asked questions or shouted questions. Maybe she answers
Speaker 1: them or not, but she's always in some environment around press,
Speaker 1: if you will, that allows her to answer or to
Speaker 1: be asked at least some of those questions you speak of.
Speaker 1: Why not go to a talk show where the audience's women,
Speaker 1: to where it's daytime to where you got Drew Barrymore
Speaker 1: and not a journalist but an entertainer across Why is
Speaker 1: it still in that environment? Is it or should it
Speaker 1: be okay to stay in that particular lane that she's
Speaker 1: not allowed usually in her day to day to speak on. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's that much.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, and I say, I totally think that
Speaker 2: that can be a part of the questions, a part
Speaker 2: of the conversation. It just was odd to me that
Speaker 2: it was the sole focus. And clearly to your point,
Speaker 2: the White House knows what it's doing. They had Kamala
Speaker 2: Harris go to Drew Barrymore's show, where they know, of
Speaker 2: course they've watched her show, her interviewing style. They knew
Speaker 2: she was only going to be answering softer questions where
Speaker 2: she was able to show her warmth, and that's something
Speaker 2: of course they wanted to do in an election year.
Speaker 2: It makes a lot of sense. We understand how these
Speaker 2: things work, and there's nothing accidental about her ending up
Speaker 2: on that show. It was very deliberate on the part
Speaker 2: of the White House and the Vice President's folks and staff.
Speaker 2: They knew what they were doing and they knew the
Speaker 2: kind of interview they wanted to that point. They had
Speaker 2: pictures of her with her husband and her step children
Speaker 2: cued up, so they knew what the conversation was going
Speaker 2: to be. It just seemed incredibly odd and cringey that
Speaker 2: she was just asking her to be a mom of
Speaker 2: the country. It all felt inappropriate, to be honest, it
Speaker 2: felt it went too far in a direction that I
Speaker 2: think most people weren't prepared to hear.
Speaker 1: Okay, So I watched the interview separate from you, and
Speaker 1: my reaction or the first thing out of my mouth
Speaker 1: about it had nothing to do with anything speak of,
Speaker 1: because all of that was it was. It was a
Speaker 1: sidebar to what jumped out in me as the most
Speaker 1: glaring issue that many people ultimately did have with it,
Speaker 1: and that is, of course her calling her Mama La.
Speaker 1: Of course her stepkids call her Mamla. Shouldn't that be
Speaker 1: a fun moment, acute moment. But in going farther further
Speaker 1: and saying that we need you to be our protector,
Speaker 1: we need you to give us a hug, we need
Speaker 1: you to be the mom for the whole country, that
Speaker 1: I got incredible, Like I had a visceral reaction to
Speaker 1: hearing that immediately, because I recognize something as a black person,
Speaker 1: as a black man that you didn't immediately recognize, which
Speaker 1: is that she was putting Kamala Harris, a black woman
Speaker 1: into a category of service, putting it through a category
Speaker 1: of being in service to others and a category of
Speaker 1: being a servant, and in a way that so many
Speaker 1: black women historically in this country have been stereotyped and
Speaker 1: put into a hole in an expectation that now we
Speaker 1: have the most powerful Black woman in the world being
Speaker 1: reduced to mammy. And it was amazing, and I wish
Speaker 1: more conversations we talk about this. It's impossible almost for
Speaker 1: these to happen publicly, but in private to where you
Speaker 1: and I got to have this full and wonderful discussion
Speaker 1: about something that just stands out or is different between
Speaker 1: us because of our different experiences. And that's okay. And
Speaker 1: Drew Barrymore didn't get it. I believe in the moment
Speaker 1: what she was saying, Obviously she didn't mean any harm,
Speaker 1: and I think she was trying to pay a compliment.
Speaker 1: But for so many in the country, and so many
Speaker 1: black folks obviously imediately see that even the best and
Speaker 1: brightest of us, and the woman sitting as the vice
Speaker 1: president has now been reduced. It didn't help the optics
Speaker 1: that it was a white woman sitting on that couch
Speaker 1: with her has been reduced to nothing more than a servant,
Speaker 1: a maid, a mammy, or what we have stereotypically seen
Speaker 1: black women being portrayed as. And that stings to high
Speaker 1: heaven for a lot of black folks.
Speaker 2: And the moment you said that to me, we had
Speaker 2: this discussion a few days ago, and just hearing you
Speaker 2: say it again, because we've been talking about this for
Speaker 2: several days now, I genuinely got chills once again from
Speaker 2: head to toe because my mind when I first watched
Speaker 2: it never went there, My reaction never went there. But
Speaker 2: the moment you said it, a light bulb went off
Speaker 2: and I thought, oh my god, I never e even
Speaker 2: thought about it that way. But now that you say that,
Speaker 2: it makes perfect sense. And this is something this example,
Speaker 2: I feel like is something us white folks can look
Speaker 2: at and think, this is exactly a moment where frame
Speaker 2: of reference, my frame of reference was even as a
Speaker 2: woman like that's I'm more than that. I'm not just
Speaker 2: a mom, I'm not just a caregiver. I'm not just
Speaker 2: somebody who needs to help other people feel better about
Speaker 2: their pain. That's what we do as moms oftentimes. But
Speaker 2: I wasn't thinking about it obviously from a black person's
Speaker 2: or specifically a black woman's perspective. But the moment you
Speaker 2: said it rang true. That is what we have portrayed
Speaker 2: and treat so many Black women as in movies, in
Speaker 2: television shows. You know, everywhere you look, you start seeing
Speaker 2: the examples and then you can understand that reaction. But
Speaker 2: it also is fascinating to me that I didn't have
Speaker 2: that initially, nor did. We watched a lot of the commentary.
Speaker 2: We've seen a lot of the reaction to the initial interview,
Speaker 2: and you can kind of break it down. I mean,
Speaker 2: everyone I think called it cringe worthy for the most part,
Speaker 2: but you could break down why people thought it was
Speaker 2: cringeworthy along racial lines, and that is fascinating to me.
Speaker 2: It opens up a conversation, but hopefully it also can
Speaker 2: open up a bridge so that we can understand, oh, oh,
Speaker 2: I'm seeing it from a different perspective now, and damn wow.
Speaker 2: We all need to check why we're thinking things how
Speaker 2: we think, even if we intend them as compliments, which
Speaker 2: I actually agree with you I think Drew Barrymore thought
Speaker 2: she was giving her a compliment, and it was It
Speaker 2: was quite the opposite, and.
Speaker 1: It was coming from a and we get. But in
Speaker 1: a moment like that, you have to ask, why is
Speaker 1: it you might applaud that moment? Why isn't Why is
Speaker 1: it that you might have said the same thing? And
Speaker 1: that's why it's difficult to have these conversations in public.
Speaker 1: You and I have one. Oh my god, I wish
Speaker 1: people could see how we have our conversations in private.
Speaker 1: But what is it about anyone who sees that moment
Speaker 1: and would applaud it. What is it about that moment
Speaker 1: with Drew Barrymore who thinks she's saying it never registered
Speaker 1: to her what she was saying because and you know this,
Speaker 1: I listened to you describe what your issues were with
Speaker 1: the interview, and I was just waiting, like, she's going
Speaker 1: to get to it. She's going to get to it.
Speaker 1: And that part of it, which was the only thing
Speaker 1: I actually reacted to, Wow, didn't even cross your mind.
Speaker 1: It was just fascinating and I and I would encourage
Speaker 1: anybody to have the conversation. If you have it with yourself, fine,
Speaker 1: but have it with somebody in safety. But we try
Speaker 1: to have these conversations publicly, they don't work because it
Speaker 1: doesn't work in one hundred and forty or two hundred
Speaker 1: and eighty characters, or we just we will all this
Speaker 1: clap back we discussed before we even came on here,
Speaker 1: like what word can I use to describe what's happening
Speaker 1: because we're like, well, I don't want to use backlash,
Speaker 1: don't because all these little catch words are being used
Speaker 1: now to describe what this is. And what this is
Speaker 1: is just a moment that we can all learn from.
Speaker 1: It's infuriating for black folks. For one, I have to
Speaker 1: endure the moment, and then two I have to explain
Speaker 1: to you how to do better at that. That second
Speaker 1: part is very difficult.
Speaker 2: No, and I and I get it, and we we
Speaker 2: You and I can talk about it, and it's a
Speaker 2: safe space. There's there's obvious trust and love there between us.
Speaker 2: So it's amazing to have these conversations and I totally
Speaker 2: get the you know, it's like a double whammy to
Speaker 2: then have to explain why that's offensive. But the truth
Speaker 2: is this is really about, you know, the lens through
Speaker 2: which we all see things, and we all immediately see
Speaker 2: things through the lens of our own personal experiences, and
Speaker 2: obviously I have no idea what it's like to be
Speaker 2: black in America, and you're I am getting a much
Speaker 2: clearer view of it. And I'll never know, obviously, but
Speaker 2: seeing you and walking beside you and hearing you and
Speaker 2: loving you and knowing things in a way that I
Speaker 2: wouldn't have known even a few years ago when we
Speaker 2: were just friends and open about lots of things. But
Speaker 2: this is so much different now, and I just it's
Speaker 2: a moment where we can all just take a step back,
Speaker 2: because the reaction is to be defensive and to say, well,
Speaker 2: you know, I don't think. I don't think about black
Speaker 2: women that way. That's not how I view black women.
Speaker 2: That's not what I think. But the truth is it's
Speaker 2: in our heads. If it didn't register to me that
Speaker 2: that was offensive, then I'm not being honest about how
Speaker 2: black women are often portrayed, almost singularly portrayed, and how
Speaker 2: we're all comfortable with that and it's not fair. And
Speaker 2: so I'm so comfortable with that notion that it didn't
Speaker 2: seem offensive to me, which is something I need to
Speaker 2: examine and something we all need to examine as white
Speaker 2: people because we don't understand what it's like to be
Speaker 2: relegated to that in so many ways, and then to
Speaker 2: think that that's just an okay thing to be. And
Speaker 2: I learned a lot watching this clip, and I loved
Speaker 2: how you did that. You didn't say anything to me,
Speaker 2: You just said what did you think? And I restated
Speaker 2: it all here at the beginning of the podcast, and
Speaker 2: then to hear your reaction was it was mind blowing.
Speaker 1: And again, Kamala Harry, this is bad. I mean, I
Speaker 1: think in a lot of ways there's some effort out
Speaker 1: there to humanize her, but a part of that, a
Speaker 1: problem with that is that you also need to make
Speaker 1: sure this woman is seen as capable and strong and
Speaker 1: a potential president. And so this woman was the attorney
Speaker 1: general the most populous state in the country, she was
Speaker 1: a senator from the most populous state in the country.
Speaker 1: She's the vice president and you and it just just
Speaker 1: hug us and be our mammy. It's how it comes.
Speaker 1: I'm not pleased. We have to be clear here. We
Speaker 1: are not beating down on Drew barrymore for the moment
Speaker 1: and how could you. But the moment is one that
Speaker 1: is worth making note of and taking note of. And
Speaker 1: we didn't want rov you and I didn't want to
Speaker 1: just hop on and do a quick podcast. We wanted
Speaker 1: to be deliberate and want the things to calm down
Speaker 1: a little bit, and we wouldn't want to add to
Speaker 1: the fire. But it is a teachable moment. It is
Speaker 1: a moment to take note to see why. And my
Speaker 1: first thought was Hattie McDaniel. One of my first was
Speaker 1: Hattie McDaniel, first black person to win an oscar. She
Speaker 1: won for Gone with Wind, She won for playing a slave.
Speaker 1: Her name literally was Mammy in the movie. Her name
Speaker 1: was Mammy, and it was her job to be in
Speaker 1: service to this white family, to do it loyally with
Speaker 1: no recognition. That is exactly the position that now so
Speaker 1: many black women are being put in in this country
Speaker 1: all the time of we gotta go solve the problem,
Speaker 1: we have to go come in and be the saviors,
Speaker 1: and we never get any recognition. It's another burden. And
Speaker 1: to think that the vice president, the black woman, has
Speaker 1: been reduced to that in that moment, No matter what
Speaker 1: do you think about, Drew Barrymore was just tough and
Speaker 1: even if you mean no harm, you can still do
Speaker 1: some harm, and so the only way we reduce that
Speaker 1: harm a little bit is by having just a loving
Speaker 1: conversation about what we all just saw and how we
Speaker 1: felt about it. And that's something you and I can
Speaker 1: do privately. I don't know if it's happening publicly.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And I saw someone wrote recently about just the
Speaker 2: only maybe other strong female leader in this country that
Speaker 2: we could point to maybe would be Hillary Clinton. I mean,
Speaker 2: you could name some other names, but the most notable
Speaker 2: one perhaps, And someone suggested, would anyone have asked Hillary
Speaker 2: Clinton to be the mom of this country?
Speaker 1: Yeah? No, I'm had to say that to me. I
Speaker 1: don't know, because of her style and how she goes
Speaker 1: about I don't know, but I doubt it. To you,
Speaker 1: you're making the point.
Speaker 2: Right, I mean, just just in case you're thinking, well,
Speaker 2: come on, it's just something you might say to any woman.
Speaker 2: I don't know that that's true. And I think just
Speaker 2: to actually really think about it and sit with it
Speaker 2: and think about what our ideas and thoughts are about
Speaker 2: the role black women play in this country, in our lives,
Speaker 2: in this world, and just it's worth being honest with
Speaker 2: yourself about what our feelings are and what we've seen
Speaker 2: and how black women have been portrayed and so it all,
Speaker 2: you know, it all comes into play here when you
Speaker 2: see what happened in that studio on Monday. And again
Speaker 2: I agree, I don't think there was any ill intent,
Speaker 2: but it is something to examine and to ask yourself.
Speaker 1: And I go to the Oscars and it's such an
Speaker 1: obvious case. But Hattie McDaniels, of course famously played the slave.
Speaker 1: But you go through and look at I mean, Monique
Speaker 1: won an Oscar for playing a welfare mother. Harry Barry
Speaker 1: Barry be right, even with Pie Goldberg played some con
Speaker 1: artists a charlatan by Ola Davis. Ela Davis and Octavia
Speaker 1: Spencer both got nominations Oaktavia won it both as maids.
Speaker 1: There's a history of this that why is it that
Speaker 1: we are so comfortable needing black women to be in
Speaker 1: certain roles to make us comfortable? If you're this, you're
Speaker 1: the vice president, but I need you to be this
Speaker 1: other thing that makes me more comfortable, and you in
Speaker 1: service of me is how it is immediately interpreted by us.
Speaker 1: And that's that's that's a tough one. Again, no matter
Speaker 1: what Drew Barrymore might have thought in the moment you
Speaker 1: made this is a very good example of how you've
Speaker 1: watched things, or you have insight into the black community
Speaker 1: and black folks and black men, and just being by
Speaker 1: my side the way you have. But you know, this
Speaker 1: drives me crazy. Is one of the most frustrated moments
Speaker 1: I probably ever had at ABC News. But you were
Speaker 1: there by my side during the Oscars twenty twenty two. Right, Yes, Yeah,
Speaker 1: the slap herd around the world. We were in a
Speaker 1: I can't remember the name of the hotel. It was
Speaker 1: a watch party for the Oscar. We're out there the
Speaker 1: cover of the Oscars.
Speaker 2: Yes, we had just gotten off the red carpet.
Speaker 1: Yes, And we go to this Oscar's watch party in
Speaker 1: the lobby of the hotel where we all were big
Speaker 1: screens up. The slap happens, right, Will Smith, Max, Chris Rock.
Speaker 1: We couldn't try everybody's and shot it? Did that just happen?
Speaker 3: Was that real?
Speaker 1: Once we figured I was real, I was on the
Speaker 1: phone within thirty seconds. You were right next to me.
Speaker 1: I was, And who I called was one of my boys, Rodney,
Speaker 1: who has been worked with Chris Rock for decades and
Speaker 1: has been a part of some of his biggest specials
Speaker 1: and helping him write them. But he's been a friend
Speaker 1: for a long time. Trust his brother more than anything.
Speaker 1: I call him immediately and he doesn't even say hello,
Speaker 1: He just says, yeah, it was real. First thing is yeah,
Speaker 1: it was real. But you saw a conversation take place
Speaker 1: between two black men, like I'm literally within sixty seconds
Speaker 1: of that slap happening. That showed that we as black
Speaker 1: people were viewing that moment differently from you and how
Speaker 1: you saw it and didn't even think about it in
Speaker 1: the moment, because we saw it and immediately thought this
Speaker 1: is bad for us, for black folks, because we got
Speaker 1: a black producer, we got black folks nominated, we got
Speaker 1: d Nice as the DJ at the This was the
Speaker 1: Black Oscars and we know that to see two black
Speaker 1: men who are on our mount rushmore essentially of entertainers
Speaker 1: in my generation, Will Smith and Chris Rock. Can you
Speaker 1: imagine seeing them roll around on the Oscar stage fighting
Speaker 1: two black men. Chris Rock saved that Oscars by not
Speaker 1: retaliating because we know this was the Black Oscars, and
Speaker 1: white folks can now look and go see told you
Speaker 1: see what happened when you put them in charge, see
Speaker 1: what happens. See that was my immediate reaction that you saw,
Speaker 1: And it never would have dawned on you that that
Speaker 1: was happening.
Speaker 2: You weren't just watching entertainment. You were personally devastated watching
Speaker 2: it happen. And I would say just I think moments earlier,
Speaker 2: we had an amazing red carpet interview with Will Packer.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, and you could see the excitement, the opportunity,
Speaker 2: the opportunity to show the world what black people can do.
Speaker 2: I saw the unbelievable disappointment and almost embarrassment, like you
Speaker 2: were almost personally taking it on. And I saw that
Speaker 2: and it was different.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so we then have to go the next morning
Speaker 1: you saw something else. So we're getting ready to go on.
Speaker 1: It was four am on the West coast, right the
Speaker 1: show's live GMA at seven am on the East coast,
Speaker 1: So we're up at four in front of a camera
Speaker 1: up at four.
Speaker 2: We didn't even go to bed. That I mean, we
Speaker 2: were watching the whole thing and then the talk afterwards.
Speaker 2: I mean, we never went to bed. We just went
Speaker 2: straight onto the set of Good Morning America.
Speaker 1: But starting the show before the show. There was another
Speaker 1: another ABC talent there and we're talking. It's thirty folks
Speaker 1: staying around between camera guys and harror and makeup and
Speaker 1: tech folks and everybody's around, and we're standing in front
Speaker 1: of the camera ready to go, several of us, and
Speaker 1: we started talking about that moment, and this white counterpart
Speaker 1: of mine said that they didn't see it that way
Speaker 1: as we started talking about it and said, well, no,
Speaker 1: I watched it too, and I was you know, I
Speaker 1: was hurt, I was offend. I was just couldn't believe
Speaker 1: and I said, no, no, but what I'm saying is
Speaker 1: as black folks, we were watching and this means something
Speaker 1: different to us, and da da DA shut me down.
Speaker 1: This person did and said, no, TJ, you're making it
Speaker 1: something it's not and you're looking at it the wrong way.
Speaker 1: You were standing right next to yes.
Speaker 2: This person said, we all felt it the same. You
Speaker 2: didn't feel it any differently than me, and was actually
Speaker 2: offended that you had or were claiming to have a
Speaker 2: different reaction than this person. And I can tell you
Speaker 2: watching it, and by the way, I want to actually say,
Speaker 2: you were tasked with starting this conversation because of what
Speaker 2: you just mentioned you were asked to talk about what
Speaker 2: it was like for you to watch, what it was
Speaker 2: like for you to experience, and so you were because
Speaker 2: you don't script anything out, you were talking it through
Speaker 2: before we went on the air, and that's when this
Speaker 2: person told you that you couldn't have shouldn't have seen
Speaker 2: things any differently than everyone else in the room. And
Speaker 2: I knew what was about to happen. Ha.
Speaker 1: Look, I had to and I had to keep it
Speaker 1: cool at the time, But that was such a stark
Speaker 1: illustration of it's okay for us to see things differently,
Speaker 1: but we as black folks get really offended when we're
Speaker 1: told by our white counterparts that we are not justified
Speaker 1: in our unique experience in this country. And so if
Speaker 1: anyone is looking at the Drew Barrymore Kamala Harris interview
Speaker 1: and said, nah, you're making something that is not We're
Speaker 1: having different experiences, and that's okay, that's actually okay. But
Speaker 1: anytime we're denied the right, and in that moment at GMA,
Speaker 1: on this out in the field, being told that you
Speaker 1: are not justified, you do not have a unique experience,
Speaker 1: you do not have the right to your own black experience,
Speaker 1: giving you a perspective on the same thing we're watching.
Speaker 1: I was told flat out, no, you are wrong for
Speaker 1: how you're feeling by a white person.
Speaker 2: You were completely invalidated, and that has to be an
Speaker 2: incredibly frustrating thing. And I think for me to watch it,
Speaker 2: I'm telling you my jaw dropped because to tell someone
Speaker 2: that their experience isn't valid or real, or their feelings
Speaker 2: don't count or the fact, or to even consider that
Speaker 2: you could have a different perspective based on how you
Speaker 2: have come up in the world. That is when it
Speaker 2: really turns ugly and sad to me, because can we
Speaker 2: all acknowledge that we see things differently? And more importantly,
Speaker 2: we can learn from each other's perspectives and each other's experiences,
Speaker 2: but you can't invalidate them, because then there's no place
Speaker 2: to start from. You have to at least give someone
Speaker 2: the credit and the understanding that they have a different
Speaker 2: experience and it's not wrong and it's not fake. It's
Speaker 2: just not your experience. So, yeah, that was an amazing thing.
Speaker 2: And I remember you looked around the room and I
Speaker 2: don't know how many people it was a big production.
Speaker 2: Would you say there were I don't know twenty thirty people.
Speaker 1: Oh for sure, at least thirty.
Speaker 2: There was only one other. There was a black man
Speaker 2: right camera, and you said hello, and you shout it
Speaker 2: out to him, You said, can you help me out here?
Speaker 2: Like you know, we saw things differently.
Speaker 1: The point there is that so many times black folks,
Speaker 1: and certainly when you get into certain environments in corporate
Speaker 1: America where you're sitting and I'm in an environment to
Speaker 1: where there are thirty people in a room, they're twenty
Speaker 1: eight white. Two black guys have a particular perspective about something.
Speaker 1: So the twenty eight white folks agree on their perspective.
Speaker 1: So you two are the minority perspective, So you must
Speaker 1: be wrong. There's no way twenty eight of us are
Speaker 1: seeing it the wrong way, So you two must be wrong.
Speaker 1: That happens so often. It happened. It was you know
Speaker 1: this my frustration oftentimes in this world to where I
Speaker 1: go in this world, in this media landscape, to where
Speaker 1: you go to your morning meetings, your afternoon meetings, and
Speaker 1: you're the only black person in the room and you're
Speaker 1: trying to convince a whole room of folks that you
Speaker 1: are correct when they don't get it. Because they don't
Speaker 1: live your experience. It was the saying the GMA staff meetings,
Speaker 1: thirty people in the room. If I didn't go, there
Speaker 1: was really that might not be a black man in
Speaker 1: the room at all. And I had to for years
Speaker 1: hear people when they're pitching a story having to do
Speaker 1: with a potential black interviewee. They would add, he speaks
Speaker 1: so well, he's really well spoken. Yeah, this business owner
Speaker 1: out in San Francisco. Yeah, yeah, but it's okay. He's
Speaker 1: well spoken, but it's okay. He's a good talker. That
Speaker 1: it happens so often. And then I finally spoke up
Speaker 1: one day about it, and you know, the first thing
Speaker 1: out of somebody's mouth after I stopped talking, Yeah, women
Speaker 1: deal with this kind of thing all the time. It
Speaker 1: immediately undercut, took away everything I said, and they went
Speaker 1: back to their own thing. And now I didn't expect this,
Speaker 1: and you didn't. We talked about this podcast on I
Speaker 1: didn't expect to be vending or talking about it this way.
Speaker 1: But I find the Drew Barrymore Kamala Harris situation a valuable, valuable,
Speaker 1: valuable teaching moment if we will embrace it. And the
Speaker 1: only way you can embrace it is by acknowledging. What
Speaker 1: you Robock acknowledge is that you know what I looked
Speaker 1: at it and that moment didn't even register to me.
Speaker 1: So let me listen to somebody else who this did impact.
Speaker 1: That doesn't happen enough, and it doesn't happen publicly.
Speaker 3: I would argue, Yeah, it's time to hear her side
Speaker 3: of the story.
Speaker 2: I love the show so much. I was like, please
Speaker 2: throw my name in the mix.
Speaker 3: I need to be in on this.
Speaker 4: We were sure she was going to be the next
Speaker 4: bachelorette and then something changed.
Speaker 2: I'm giving things very very hush hush.
Speaker 4: Fans of The Bachelor know exactly what we're talking about.
Speaker 4: Joe and Serena sit down for an intimate conversation with.
Speaker 2: Maria Georgis on Bachelor Happy Hour.
Speaker 4: I have to ask, I heard a rumor that you
Speaker 4: were dating at one point one of Drake's best friends.
Speaker 3: Oh, we have more Sami.
Speaker 4: Listen to Bachelor Happy Hour on America's number one podcast network, iHeart,
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Speaker 4: Listen now everywhere you listen to podcasts, and don't miss
Speaker 4: part two Monday Night.
Speaker 2: To your point, the last story you just told about,
Speaker 2: you know, immediately referring or relating it back to what
Speaker 2: women go through. I do think in this case, and
Speaker 2: in so many of the cases, there is this absolute
Speaker 2: desire to connect to your pain or to connect to
Speaker 2: your story, but in doing so completely invalidates your point
Speaker 2: where you just bring it back to what you know
Speaker 2: or what you've gone through or what you've experienced. And
Speaker 2: I know that is a human tendency, but it's incredibly
Speaker 2: offensive and you're not actually listening. You're not actually saying, wow,
Speaker 2: I didn't realize that. Tell me more. And I always
Speaker 2: feel like if you can just follow up with a
Speaker 2: question about what that person's asking, I've learned the hard way.
Speaker 2: Instead of just relating it back to yourself or what
Speaker 2: you could say, oh, well, I know what that feels
Speaker 2: like too. Actually, guess what, most of the time we
Speaker 2: don't know what it feels like. So maybe how about
Speaker 2: follow up with a question, follow up with deeper understanding.
Speaker 2: It's just an opportunity the next time your brain might
Speaker 2: go to relating it back to yourself or relating it
Speaker 2: back to something you have, maybe in the most genuine
Speaker 2: of ways, to try and connect to people and to
Speaker 2: be a part of something instead acknowledge that you probably
Speaker 2: don't know anything about what this person's been through or
Speaker 2: has gone through, and ask some questions to learn instead
Speaker 2: of trying to bring it back to yourself or trying
Speaker 2: to say too. And so I just feel like that
Speaker 2: is something that we can learn from and something that
Speaker 2: we've talked about. And I've had to actually retrain my brain.
Speaker 2: I think it's a it's a human thing. Maybe it's
Speaker 2: a privileged thing. I don't know, but I know that
Speaker 2: I have had to reevaluate where my brain goes first,
Speaker 2: and to really try to ask a question next instead
Speaker 2: of just saying, well, here's what I think or here's
Speaker 2: what I believe. And I think that could go a
Speaker 2: long way in these types of conversations and viewing things,
Speaker 2: and and also just readily acknowledging and admitting that my
Speaker 2: brain didn't go there. I didn't think about it that way,
Speaker 2: and that's okay. But I can learn why didn't it
Speaker 2: and then understand why it didn't, and that goes a
Speaker 2: long way into actually truly connecting to someone's experience.
Speaker 1: Most of those have to possibly happen in private. I
Speaker 1: encourage folks to have those private conversations, right, we were
Speaker 1: not having it on a grander scale or on a
Speaker 1: TV somewhere and these larger But you and I have
Speaker 1: gotten so far in our conversations because they're private, because
Speaker 1: we respect each other, because we love each other. We
Speaker 1: know where our hearts and heads are, and it's okay
Speaker 1: to make a mistake in private, and what you're saying,
Speaker 1: you need to have that in safety. So my first
Speaker 1: thought when I saw and I told you that I
Speaker 1: wanted to When I heard it, I was so like
Speaker 1: I said, I had a visceral reaction when she said
Speaker 1: this to Kamala Harris, and I was so bothered. But
Speaker 1: then it took a matter of seconds and I wanted
Speaker 1: to take Drew Barrymore to lunch and just talk to
Speaker 1: her in a safe place, not to educate her, but
Speaker 1: she needs a safe place. And the biggest issue. We're
Speaker 1: not sitting here criticizing Drew Barrymore at all, but if
Speaker 1: there's any place we get close to criticism, our minds
Speaker 1: are blown that no one flag this because this show
Speaker 1: was not live, it was taped, and it was taped.
Speaker 1: You told me this, I think yesterday. Wait, they had
Speaker 1: how many days with this.
Speaker 2: Well, I read that they taped this on the Wednesday before.
Speaker 2: I know for a fact they gave clips and excerpts
Speaker 2: to People Magazine on the Friday before, and then it
Speaker 2: aired on Mondays. So at the very least they had
Speaker 2: the weekend, the producers, the editors, you know, to make
Speaker 2: sure that the best product went out. I know that
Speaker 2: I don't know all the details of how long the
Speaker 2: interview was, but from what I've read, Drew does long
Speaker 2: interviews and then they cut them down and put the
Speaker 2: best clips for the actual interview that airs, which makes
Speaker 2: a lot of sense. We all did that in broadcasting.
Speaker 2: That makes sense. But to think that there were I
Speaker 2: don't know how many people in the room who had
Speaker 2: to say in the final cut, no one flagged this,
Speaker 2: and you pointed out in terms of I don't know
Speaker 2: what the what the diversity is on her staff, but
Speaker 2: it just begs the question, how did no one flag this?
Speaker 2: How did no one see this? If you have, you know,
Speaker 2: a bunch of me in the room, white folks, maybe yeah,
Speaker 2: you might say, well, that's just Drew's style and that's
Speaker 2: just what she does. But to flag the potential potential
Speaker 2: problem that this would be for so many black folks
Speaker 2: watching this. That's that kind of that's puzzling.
Speaker 1: Because we know that we've been in this business television
Speaker 1: for a long long time. There are so many especially
Speaker 1: when a big interview, there are so many eyes on it.
Speaker 1: But even if we don't know behind the scenes how
Speaker 1: many got to see it, we do know this. There's
Speaker 1: camera guys, there's stage hands, there's a stage manager, there's
Speaker 1: an audio guy. There's a director, there's a technical director.
Speaker 1: These folks just have to see it no matter what. Right,
Speaker 1: So we're up to maybe six to ten people who
Speaker 1: are not even involved in the editor editorial process, who
Speaker 1: heard and saw this take place. Now you go to
Speaker 1: the producers, the host, the editors sitting in the room
Speaker 1: putting it together. It is a little baffling that nobody said, uh, guys,
Speaker 1: this part right here. That that part is fascinating to me. Like,
Speaker 1: no matter what you remember, I used to come around,
Speaker 1: I wouldn't put a show on GMA or story on
Speaker 1: GMA had to do with the LGBTQ plus community. I
Speaker 1: would go ask DeAndre gay brother we had working there
Speaker 1: at the time. I would go ask somebody, Hey, if
Speaker 1: I say it this way, or can you look at
Speaker 1: this for me? Or can you read this? I would
Speaker 1: come to your dress.
Speaker 2: You came into our dressing room, my dressing room all
Speaker 2: the time asking about you know, female issues, Like what
Speaker 2: would you say, is this okay? Would this be offensive?
Speaker 2: I mean, that's what you do beforehand, but even after
Speaker 2: the fact, especially when you have time and we've all
Speaker 2: had big interviews, big heavy weighted interviews that you know
Speaker 2: are going to get a lot of eyeballs, that you
Speaker 2: know is going to have a lot of scrutiny. I
Speaker 2: don't understand how no one flagged that.
Speaker 1: I don't understand so to in that regard, I'm like, wow,
Speaker 1: she needs like there's someone who's got to be looking
Speaker 1: out better for her. You can argue she should have
Speaker 1: known better. Fine, fine, fine, fine, but there's just that's
Speaker 1: just not on her. And maybe some feel like she
Speaker 1: didn't make a mistake at all, that there's nothing wrong
Speaker 1: with what she said, that there it's okay, and that
Speaker 1: people are making too much out of it. Then those
Speaker 1: those folks, I beg you really to take a beat,
Speaker 1: do a little reading, and try to understand a different
Speaker 1: perspective and not just dismiss it. We can all be
Speaker 1: looking at the exact same thing and have a different
Speaker 1: reaction to it, as was the case with me and you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think, what's promising about this? Or maybe
Speaker 2: just this naive hope I might have that because there
Speaker 2: was no mal intent, I don't, and because there was
Speaker 2: something ugly or mean spirited that was said at all,
Speaker 2: that actually this is a shining example of something that
Speaker 2: we could look at and say, ah, I can see
Speaker 2: how we can do better because no one did anything
Speaker 2: deliberately or intentionally wrong, and yet still the messaging needs
Speaker 2: to be addressed, needs to be acknowledged, and we need
Speaker 2: to do better.
Speaker 1: My last, if folks don't don't believe, I want everybody
Speaker 1: to look up Michelle Nichols. I think I've been talking
Speaker 1: about her for I mean, probably twenty years, but she's
Speaker 1: somebody I thought about with this and that she played
Speaker 1: lieutenant of her. If folks don't know she was the
Speaker 1: original lieutenant of her was Zoe Saldana, Oh yeah, she
Speaker 1: played lieutenant of her in the New Star Trek. But
Speaker 1: this lady was the original old school black lady lieutenant
Speaker 1: her own Star Trek, and she had decided to quit
Speaker 1: the show this is the nineteen sixties. I can't remember
Speaker 1: which year, but she decided I'm gonna quit because she
Speaker 1: went to go to Broadway did some other thing. Broadway
Speaker 1: was more profitable, the bigger deal, more prestigious than some
Speaker 1: little TV show about some stuff tracks star trek Ye.
Speaker 1: It seems crazy to think, but she just I'm gonna juggernaut, right.
Speaker 1: She quit so she could go do Broadway. She had
Speaker 1: a chance meeting with Martin Luther King Jr. In Detroit.
Speaker 1: I believe it was in which he was talking about
Speaker 1: he was a tricky. He was so excited to meet her. Say,
Speaker 1: it's the only show that they let the King kids
Speaker 1: stay up and watch. And she told him I'm gonna
Speaker 1: miss it. And he said, wait, wait what she told
Speaker 1: him she was gonna quit. He told her how she
Speaker 1: recalls the story, you are the first black person to
Speaker 1: be on TV that is not a maid, a slave,
Speaker 1: a servant. It's showing us strong, intelligent, beautiful, capable black people.
Speaker 1: You are doing just as much for us by being
Speaker 1: on TV as we're doing out here in the streets.
Speaker 1: You cannot quit. And she didn't quit, And the rest
Speaker 1: is history. Doctor King understood even back then, how important
Speaker 1: it was for black people to be seen a certain way,
Speaker 1: and to think that this day and age, that the
Speaker 1: vice president, a black woman, is still being reduced in
Speaker 1: some way to nothing more than service is what I
Speaker 1: desperately want everybody please to try to take that, to
Speaker 1: take that in to where it's not just a matter
Speaker 1: of somebody sitting too close on the couch or It
Speaker 1: means so much more than just a cringey interview, and
Speaker 1: it's a very important and valuable moment if we're willing
Speaker 1: to be honest. Maybe not in public, but please, I
Speaker 1: beg you to be honest private about how you really
Speaker 1: reacted to what you saw and how you reacted to
Speaker 1: some black people's reaction to it.
Speaker 2: What I just don't think. I think you said it
Speaker 2: so well. I think that's the perfect way to end,
Speaker 2: and I think that's what.
Speaker 1: Are you looking at me?
Speaker 2: Well, No, I was looking at you. Actually, I was
Speaker 2: admiring what you said, because I do. I was looking
Speaker 2: at you with love actually, but no, and I yeah,
Speaker 2: that was love and admiration. Did what did it look like?
Speaker 1: It looked like I had done something wrong and.
Speaker 2: I need to work on my facial expressions.
Speaker 1: Yeah, look like it doesn't wrong. Oh, this wasn't It
Speaker 1: wasn't supposed to be an emotional thing. It's just it's
Speaker 1: one thing. If you don't get it, we're okay. If
Speaker 1: you don't understand it, don't get it. But if you
Speaker 1: deny us the opportunity to have our own experience, that stings. Man.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So that's something we can all work on. And
Speaker 2: I love your willingness to be open about that and
Speaker 2: to talk about it on an emotional level, because it
Speaker 2: is it's personal. It is personal. It is emotional, and
Speaker 2: it does matter, and little things matter and words that
Speaker 2: you choose matter, and we just all need to be
Speaker 2: honest with ourselves and be more intentional and more respectful.
Speaker 1: We're scared to but I give you credit. I mean,
Speaker 1: behind the scenes is one thing, but it's only possible
Speaker 1: if you have a safe place to be honest about
Speaker 1: how you're feeling. And how you're feeling sometimes or how
Speaker 1: you view things might might get you a little scrutiny,
Speaker 1: but you have to be willing to be open and honest,
Speaker 1: and that's the only way we're going to solve a problem.
Speaker 1: So thank you. I was a little worried that you
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't want anybody to look at you
Speaker 1: and your reaction to it as something that's that should
Speaker 1: also be criticized, scrutinized, or it's okay.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's okay. Yeah, it's okay to admit what you
Speaker 2: don't know, and it's okay too, And I think that's
Speaker 2: actually where you start to learn to admit what you
Speaker 2: don't know.
Speaker 1: Well, well you've learned a lot, baby, I have so
Speaker 1: much you don't. I'm sorry, I'm kidding, obviously, I'm kidding,
Speaker 1: but yeah, we should do more around the kitchen table.
Speaker 2: I like it, Yeah I do, and I hope you
Speaker 2: all did too. Thank you, Thank you for listening, and
Speaker 2: I hope that I hope that we all learned something
Speaker 2: and we can all do better.
Speaker 1: Alright, So, folks, you know to can always follow Robes
Speaker 1: and I. We have our personal Instagram accounts, but the
Speaker 1: show also on Instagram at Amy and TJ Podcast. Thank you,
Speaker 1: as always for listening. We'll talk to y'all soon.