WEBVTT - Understanding why it Drew criticism

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<v Speaker 1>An attempted compliment results in complaints, which turns into controversy,

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<v Speaker 1>and it involves to the most visible and accomplished women

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<v Speaker 1>in the United States today. Hey, folks, welcome to this

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<v Speaker 1>latest episode of Amy and TJ Robes. We're recording this

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<v Speaker 1>one not from the studio per usual, but we're sitting

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<v Speaker 1>around the kitchen table right now. Which one do you

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<v Speaker 1>prefer where you most comfortable in the studio or sitting here?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I'm comfortable right now here. But typically when we

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<v Speaker 2>do podcasts, I do like to go to the studio

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<v Speaker 2>because that's just broadcast home for me. I don't know.

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<v Speaker 2>I like to have I like to go somewhere, sit down,

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<v Speaker 2>have people listening, have reaction all of that, because I

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<v Speaker 2>think we're used to being in the studio.

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<v Speaker 1>Are there some topics that you think you're more comfortable

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<v Speaker 1>discussing in our private because we've set around this actual

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<v Speaker 1>kitchen table before. It has some pretty tough discussions. Do

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<v Speaker 1>you ever feel like the type of discussion or the

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<v Speaker 1>tone is more appropriate when we're able to be this intimate.

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<v Speaker 1>There's nobody else in the house with us right now,

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<v Speaker 1>just us.

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<v Speaker 2>Except for Brodie the dog, but he even left I

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<v Speaker 2>think we bored him. Wow, he left the room and

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<v Speaker 2>we didn't even know. Yes, I hear what you're saying.

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<v Speaker 2>So when we have some more intimate conversations, and we've

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<v Speaker 2>had a couple of podcasts where we've done from home

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<v Speaker 2>and they've felt good here just because it's been about

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<v Speaker 2>something that was either personal, deeply personal, or just I

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<v Speaker 2>don't know, heavy, Yeah, heavi.

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<v Speaker 1>Are we making the right call today? Folks? Are we

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<v Speaker 1>have deciding? We'll tell you the story here in a

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<v Speaker 1>second of exactly how we ended up at the kitchen

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<v Speaker 1>table instead of in the studio. But the topic, I

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<v Speaker 1>think most folks robes are maybe up on it because

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<v Speaker 1>it's been in the headlines for almost the past certainly

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<v Speaker 1>the past several days as we're recording. But can you

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<v Speaker 1>get folks caught up if they're not on what was

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<v Speaker 1>a daytime interview that the headlines that came out of

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<v Speaker 1>it were not necessarily what either person involved in the

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<v Speaker 1>interview wanted.

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<v Speaker 2>That's right, Drew Barrymore interviewing Vice President Kamala Harris. It

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<v Speaker 2>took place last Monday, or at least it aired last

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<v Speaker 2>Monday and Monday, April twenty ninth. I believe is when

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<v Speaker 2>the interview actually took place. And you know, Drew Barrymore,

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<v Speaker 2>if you've ever watched the show, has a very unique

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<v Speaker 2>style to her interviewing. She gets she likes to be

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<v Speaker 2>up close and personal. She doesn't sit. I mean, she's

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<v Speaker 2>not a broadcaster, she's not a journalist. She's an actress

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<v Speaker 2>and she's a talk show host and she has her

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<v Speaker 2>own unique style and that's how she rolls, and it's

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<v Speaker 2>it's been very much who she is. And I've interviewed

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<v Speaker 2>her a couple of times and she wasn't any different

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<v Speaker 2>in that sense when she was interviewing Kamala Harris. She's

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<v Speaker 2>almost immediately intimate with the person she's interviewing, which is

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<v Speaker 2>off putting a lot to some I think maybe when

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<v Speaker 2>they watch it, but that is who Drew Barrymore is.

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<v Speaker 1>But she said, for folks that don't know, I don't

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<v Speaker 1>watch the show, immediately intimate. I didn't understand what that

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<v Speaker 1>meant because I'm just I'm very obviously familiar with through

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<v Speaker 1>Barra Moore's and that she has a show, but I

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<v Speaker 1>still and seeing clips over the years, didn't get that

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<v Speaker 1>she essentially almost will sit close enough to certainly hold hands,

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<v Speaker 1>but you could almost your face to face in a way.

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<v Speaker 1>And how she goes about it, it's her things.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and she does hold hands a lot of times.

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<v Speaker 2>She's touchy feely and she leans in. And if you're

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<v Speaker 2>watching it at home, and okay, someone like me, I

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<v Speaker 2>like personal space. And if anyone out there is the same,

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<v Speaker 2>if you were to have a conversation with her or

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<v Speaker 2>she she likes to be up in your personal space.

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<v Speaker 2>It's just who she is. And so she didn't make

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<v Speaker 2>any distinction when she was interviewing the Vice President of

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<v Speaker 2>the United States, which for any of us who have

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<v Speaker 2>interviewed people in certain positions, you're even more respectful in

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<v Speaker 2>a way. Just you're almost respecting the position in a

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<v Speaker 2>way and the person. And so there's a distance and

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<v Speaker 2>there's a formality that you usually see in those types

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<v Speaker 2>of interviews that Drew Barrymore just kept doing her thing

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<v Speaker 2>her way, and.

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<v Speaker 1>So to a certain degree, I wouldn't want to knock

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<v Speaker 1>her for that. No, it might not have been my call,

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<v Speaker 1>my choice how I went about it, but my style.

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<v Speaker 1>Even the fact that she's sitting with her on a couch.

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<v Speaker 1>Most people don't interview world leaders on a couch first

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<v Speaker 1>of all. But there's some part of me gives Drew

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<v Speaker 1>Berhmer a credit for sticking to who she is and

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<v Speaker 1>not deviating from that. Even if it's the vice president.

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<v Speaker 1>Some argue she should have deviated.

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<v Speaker 2>Correct And so it was just I don't think I've

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<v Speaker 2>ever seen an interview even if you had the volume

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<v Speaker 2>down and you weren't listening to what was being said.

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<v Speaker 2>Just by watching it, it would seem odd when you're

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<v Speaker 2>talking about interviewing a world leader. But to your point,

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<v Speaker 2>and what I'm saying, that is the way Drew barry

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<v Speaker 2>Moore is. She was sitting cross legged on the couch,

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<v Speaker 2>leaning into talking to the vice president. But yes, it

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<v Speaker 2>wasn't just the body language. More importantly, what made headlines

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<v Speaker 2>was what came out of the interview and the focus

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<v Speaker 2>of the interview, and specifically something that Drew Barrymore said,

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<v Speaker 2>And I actually have a quote because as they were

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<v Speaker 2>talking about her role as vice president and the state

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<v Speaker 2>of the world, Drew Barrymore said, and I'll quote her here,

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<v Speaker 2>I keep thinking in my head that we all need

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<v Speaker 2>a mom. I've been thinking that we all need a

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<v Speaker 2>tremendous hug right in the world, right now, but in

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<v Speaker 2>our country, we need you to be Mamla of the country.

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<v Speaker 2>And this all comes after Kamala Harris told Drew Barrymore

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<v Speaker 2>and she said this plenty of times that her step

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<v Speaker 2>children or her bonus children as she calls them, call

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<v Speaker 2>her Mama La. Of course she's taking her name Kamala

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<v Speaker 2>and mixing it with mom, but that's a personal name.

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<v Speaker 2>So when she says this and tells the Vice President

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<v Speaker 2>of the United States that we need her to be

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<v Speaker 2>Mamla of the country, you can immediately see Kamala's reaction.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, So if you haven't seen the interview yet and

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<v Speaker 1>you heard what Ropes just said, this is where we're

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<v Speaker 1>gonna pick it up. And this is why we are

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<v Speaker 1>sitting around a kitchen table right now and not in

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<v Speaker 1>the studio, because we will give you some insight into

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<v Speaker 1>what took place with us. We were recording another episode

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<v Speaker 1>several days ago and talking about various topics, and our

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<v Speaker 1>producer in the room at the time Emma turned her

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<v Speaker 1>while we were in the middle. We were in the

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<v Speaker 1>middle of recording. She had her laptop up and she

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<v Speaker 1>turned it to us and showed us an op ed

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<v Speaker 1>from Charles Blow Charles Mblow from The New York Times,

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<v Speaker 1>and we only saw the title of the article, which

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<v Speaker 1>was Kamala Harris is not America's Mamla, She's the vice president.

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<v Speaker 1>So that's all we saw. And they were trying to

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<v Speaker 1>signal to us, hey, is this something you all want

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<v Speaker 1>to talk about. We weren't up on it enough at

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<v Speaker 1>the time because we didn't read through the article. We

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<v Speaker 1>just saw the headline. We weren't up on it and

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<v Speaker 1>decided we just kind a gesture to her, No, we're

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<v Speaker 1>not gonna touch it right now. Thank god we didn't.

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<v Speaker 2>There was so much more to as they say, unpack.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, So we didn't touch it at the time. So

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<v Speaker 1>Robes and I then we go home. We decide to

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<v Speaker 1>do a little experiment. We didn't read the opbed, we

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<v Speaker 1>didn't google, we didn't read articles. Instead, what we decided

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<v Speaker 1>to do was watch the interview ourselves, Robes watching it

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<v Speaker 1>on her own. I watched it on my own. Then

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<v Speaker 1>we came together and decided and we're gonna talk about it.

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<v Speaker 1>So your react this interview that's people are calling cringe

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<v Speaker 1>worthy and controversial and people taking issue with Before we

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<v Speaker 1>read a single article, what was your reaction. Remind people here.

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<v Speaker 1>We've talked about it since, but initially your reaction to

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<v Speaker 1>the interview was.

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<v Speaker 2>What she stayed true to who she was. But so

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<v Speaker 2>I wanted that to be clear that I wasn't faulting

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<v Speaker 2>her in any way for her interview style, because she's

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<v Speaker 2>a TV host with her own personality and brings her

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<v Speaker 2>own way of doing things to the show, and that's

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<v Speaker 2>her business and it's her show, it's the Drew Barrymore Show.

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<v Speaker 2>But I just said it was really hard to watch,

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<v Speaker 2>incredibly uncomfortable to watch, not just because of how close

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<v Speaker 2>she was talking to her, but the fact that she

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<v Speaker 2>never once talked about any of the accolades and any

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<v Speaker 2>of the hard work and any of the really impressive

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<v Speaker 2>things that Kamala Harris has done throughout her career to

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<v Speaker 2>become vice President of the United States, what she's done

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<v Speaker 2>in office, and what she hopes to do if she

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<v Speaker 2>and Joe Biden are reelected. I mean, that is what

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<v Speaker 2>you would kind of expect for her to be able

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<v Speaker 2>to talk about what she's done, what she wants to do,

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<v Speaker 2>and you can talk about it in an uplifting female

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<v Speaker 2>way where you're talking about this is the first female

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<v Speaker 2>vice president of the United States, so many places you

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<v Speaker 2>could go, so to immediately talk about step children, bonus children,

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<v Speaker 2>being a mom, how she laughs, It just it just

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<v Speaker 2>felt really uncomfortable to me, just because there were so

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<v Speaker 2>many other more important things she could be talking to

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<v Speaker 2>her about as a powerful, intelligent, accomplished woman. So that

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<v Speaker 2>was my cringe. That was the cringiness for me. I

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<v Speaker 2>felt uncomfortable with the whole just mom centered vibe. It

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<v Speaker 2>just felt forced and it felt like a an uncomfortable

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<v Speaker 2>narrative that could have been a part of the interview,

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<v Speaker 2>but shouldn't have been the focus of the interview.

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<v Speaker 1>So that's where I will well, I will ask you

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<v Speaker 1>before we get into my reaction to the interview, I

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<v Speaker 1>will ask Kamla Harris has press, press conference. She's around

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<v Speaker 1>a press core, right. They follow her around to which

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<v Speaker 1>she's often asked questions or shouted questions. Maybe she answers

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<v Speaker 1>them or not, but she's always in some environment around press,

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<v Speaker 1>if you will, that allows her to answer or to

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<v Speaker 1>be asked at least some of those questions you speak of.

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<v Speaker 1>Why not go to a talk show where the audience's women,

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<v Speaker 1>to where it's daytime to where you got Drew Barrymore

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<v Speaker 1>and not a journalist but an entertainer across Why is

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<v Speaker 1>it still in that environment? Is it or should it

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<v Speaker 1>be okay to stay in that particular lane that she's

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<v Speaker 1>not allowed usually in her day to day to speak on. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>it's that much.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you know, and I say, I totally think that

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<v Speaker 2>that can be a part of the questions, a part

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<v Speaker 2>of the conversation. It just was odd to me that

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<v Speaker 2>it was the sole focus. And clearly to your point,

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<v Speaker 2>the White House knows what it's doing. They had Kamala

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<v Speaker 2>Harris go to Drew Barrymore's show, where they know, of

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<v Speaker 2>course they've watched her show, her interviewing style. They knew

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<v Speaker 2>she was only going to be answering softer questions where

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<v Speaker 2>she was able to show her warmth, and that's something

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<v Speaker 2>of course they wanted to do in an election year.

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<v Speaker 2>It makes a lot of sense. We understand how these

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<v Speaker 2>things work, and there's nothing accidental about her ending up

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<v Speaker 2>on that show. It was very deliberate on the part

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<v Speaker 2>of the White House and the Vice President's folks and staff.

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<v Speaker 2>They knew what they were doing and they knew the

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<v Speaker 2>kind of interview they wanted to that point. They had

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<v Speaker 2>pictures of her with her husband and her step children

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<v Speaker 2>cued up, so they knew what the conversation was going

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<v Speaker 2>to be. It just seemed incredibly odd and cringey that

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<v Speaker 2>she was just asking her to be a mom of

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<v Speaker 2>the country. It all felt inappropriate, to be honest, it

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<v Speaker 2>felt it went too far in a direction that I

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<v Speaker 2>think most people weren't prepared to hear.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, So I watched the interview separate from you, and

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<v Speaker 1>my reaction or the first thing out of my mouth

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<v Speaker 1>about it had nothing to do with anything speak of,

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<v Speaker 1>because all of that was it was. It was a

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<v Speaker 1>sidebar to what jumped out in me as the most

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<v Speaker 1>glaring issue that many people ultimately did have with it,

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<v Speaker 1>and that is, of course her calling her Mama La.

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<v Speaker 1>Of course her stepkids call her Mamla. Shouldn't that be

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<v Speaker 1>a fun moment, acute moment. But in going farther further

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<v Speaker 1>and saying that we need you to be our protector,

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<v Speaker 1>we need you to give us a hug, we need

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<v Speaker 1>you to be the mom for the whole country, that

0:12:31.000 --> 0:12:34.040
<v Speaker 1>I got incredible, Like I had a visceral reaction to

0:12:34.120 --> 0:12:40.400
<v Speaker 1>hearing that immediately, because I recognize something as a black person,

0:12:40.440 --> 0:12:44.080
<v Speaker 1>as a black man that you didn't immediately recognize, which

0:12:44.280 --> 0:12:49.720
<v Speaker 1>is that she was putting Kamala Harris, a black woman

0:12:49.840 --> 0:12:54.439
<v Speaker 1>into a category of service, putting it through a category

0:12:54.480 --> 0:12:58.080
<v Speaker 1>of being in service to others and a category of

0:12:58.120 --> 0:13:02.079
<v Speaker 1>being a servant, and in a way that so many

0:13:02.120 --> 0:13:06.800
<v Speaker 1>black women historically in this country have been stereotyped and

0:13:06.880 --> 0:13:11.160
<v Speaker 1>put into a hole in an expectation that now we

0:13:11.360 --> 0:13:16.760
<v Speaker 1>have the most powerful Black woman in the world being

0:13:17.000 --> 0:13:24.640
<v Speaker 1>reduced to mammy. And it was amazing, and I wish

0:13:24.720 --> 0:13:28.240
<v Speaker 1>more conversations we talk about this. It's impossible almost for

0:13:28.280 --> 0:13:32.200
<v Speaker 1>these to happen publicly, but in private to where you

0:13:32.240 --> 0:13:36.400
<v Speaker 1>and I got to have this full and wonderful discussion

0:13:36.480 --> 0:13:41.240
<v Speaker 1>about something that just stands out or is different between

0:13:41.280 --> 0:13:44.600
<v Speaker 1>us because of our different experiences. And that's okay. And

0:13:44.679 --> 0:13:48.760
<v Speaker 1>Drew Barrymore didn't get it. I believe in the moment

0:13:48.920 --> 0:13:52.360
<v Speaker 1>what she was saying, Obviously she didn't mean any harm,

0:13:52.480 --> 0:13:54.120
<v Speaker 1>and I think she was trying to pay a compliment.

0:13:54.840 --> 0:13:58.320
<v Speaker 1>But for so many in the country, and so many

0:13:58.360 --> 0:14:03.240
<v Speaker 1>black folks obviously imediately see that even the best and

0:14:03.360 --> 0:14:05.840
<v Speaker 1>brightest of us, and the woman sitting as the vice

0:14:05.880 --> 0:14:09.000
<v Speaker 1>president has now been reduced. It didn't help the optics

0:14:09.000 --> 0:14:12.280
<v Speaker 1>that it was a white woman sitting on that couch

0:14:12.320 --> 0:14:16.440
<v Speaker 1>with her has been reduced to nothing more than a servant,

0:14:17.160 --> 0:14:21.720
<v Speaker 1>a maid, a mammy, or what we have stereotypically seen

0:14:22.040 --> 0:14:25.680
<v Speaker 1>black women being portrayed as. And that stings to high

0:14:25.760 --> 0:14:27.280
<v Speaker 1>heaven for a lot of black folks.

0:14:27.320 --> 0:14:30.200
<v Speaker 2>And the moment you said that to me, we had

0:14:30.200 --> 0:14:33.520
<v Speaker 2>this discussion a few days ago, and just hearing you

0:14:33.640 --> 0:14:36.240
<v Speaker 2>say it again, because we've been talking about this for

0:14:36.320 --> 0:14:41.320
<v Speaker 2>several days now, I genuinely got chills once again from

0:14:41.400 --> 0:14:45.800
<v Speaker 2>head to toe because my mind when I first watched

0:14:45.840 --> 0:14:51.200
<v Speaker 2>it never went there, My reaction never went there. But

0:14:51.320 --> 0:14:55.240
<v Speaker 2>the moment you said it, a light bulb went off

0:14:55.320 --> 0:15:00.280
<v Speaker 2>and I thought, oh my god, I never e even

0:15:00.560 --> 0:15:02.720
<v Speaker 2>thought about it that way. But now that you say that,

0:15:03.760 --> 0:15:07.880
<v Speaker 2>it makes perfect sense. And this is something this example,

0:15:07.960 --> 0:15:11.800
<v Speaker 2>I feel like is something us white folks can look

0:15:11.840 --> 0:15:15.280
<v Speaker 2>at and think, this is exactly a moment where frame

0:15:15.320 --> 0:15:18.280
<v Speaker 2>of reference, my frame of reference was even as a

0:15:18.320 --> 0:15:21.320
<v Speaker 2>woman like that's I'm more than that. I'm not just

0:15:21.400 --> 0:15:23.960
<v Speaker 2>a mom, I'm not just a caregiver. I'm not just

0:15:24.040 --> 0:15:27.160
<v Speaker 2>somebody who needs to help other people feel better about

0:15:27.200 --> 0:15:30.160
<v Speaker 2>their pain. That's what we do as moms oftentimes. But

0:15:30.280 --> 0:15:33.960
<v Speaker 2>I wasn't thinking about it obviously from a black person's

0:15:34.080 --> 0:15:37.240
<v Speaker 2>or specifically a black woman's perspective. But the moment you

0:15:37.280 --> 0:15:42.560
<v Speaker 2>said it rang true. That is what we have portrayed

0:15:43.000 --> 0:15:46.200
<v Speaker 2>and treat so many Black women as in movies, in

0:15:46.240 --> 0:15:48.960
<v Speaker 2>television shows. You know, everywhere you look, you start seeing

0:15:48.960 --> 0:15:52.760
<v Speaker 2>the examples and then you can understand that reaction. But

0:15:52.840 --> 0:15:55.560
<v Speaker 2>it also is fascinating to me that I didn't have

0:15:55.640 --> 0:15:59.280
<v Speaker 2>that initially, nor did. We watched a lot of the commentary.

0:15:59.320 --> 0:16:02.440
<v Speaker 2>We've seen a lot of the reaction to the initial interview,

0:16:02.800 --> 0:16:04.560
<v Speaker 2>and you can kind of break it down. I mean,

0:16:04.600 --> 0:16:07.840
<v Speaker 2>everyone I think called it cringe worthy for the most part,

0:16:08.560 --> 0:16:11.040
<v Speaker 2>but you could break down why people thought it was

0:16:11.040 --> 0:16:15.080
<v Speaker 2>cringeworthy along racial lines, and that is fascinating to me.

0:16:15.160 --> 0:16:18.360
<v Speaker 2>It opens up a conversation, but hopefully it also can

0:16:18.440 --> 0:16:24.120
<v Speaker 2>open up a bridge so that we can understand, oh, oh,

0:16:24.320 --> 0:16:28.880
<v Speaker 2>I'm seeing it from a different perspective now, and damn wow.

0:16:28.960 --> 0:16:32.040
<v Speaker 2>We all need to check why we're thinking things how

0:16:32.080 --> 0:16:34.320
<v Speaker 2>we think, even if we intend them as compliments, which

0:16:34.320 --> 0:16:37.240
<v Speaker 2>I actually agree with you I think Drew Barrymore thought

0:16:37.280 --> 0:16:42.280
<v Speaker 2>she was giving her a compliment, and it was It

0:16:42.320 --> 0:16:43.480
<v Speaker 2>was quite the opposite, and.

0:16:43.400 --> 0:16:47.120
<v Speaker 1>It was coming from a and we get. But in

0:16:47.160 --> 0:16:49.280
<v Speaker 1>a moment like that, you have to ask, why is

0:16:49.320 --> 0:16:51.800
<v Speaker 1>it you might applaud that moment? Why isn't Why is

0:16:51.840 --> 0:16:53.480
<v Speaker 1>it that you might have said the same thing? And

0:16:54.520 --> 0:16:56.520
<v Speaker 1>that's why it's difficult to have these conversations in public.

0:16:56.560 --> 0:16:58.560
<v Speaker 1>You and I have one. Oh my god, I wish

0:16:58.600 --> 0:17:01.480
<v Speaker 1>people could see how we have our conversations in private.

0:17:02.160 --> 0:17:06.639
<v Speaker 1>But what is it about anyone who sees that moment

0:17:06.640 --> 0:17:09.240
<v Speaker 1>and would applaud it. What is it about that moment

0:17:09.240 --> 0:17:12.160
<v Speaker 1>with Drew Barrymore who thinks she's saying it never registered

0:17:12.200 --> 0:17:14.679
<v Speaker 1>to her what she was saying because and you know this,

0:17:14.760 --> 0:17:17.119
<v Speaker 1>I listened to you describe what your issues were with

0:17:17.160 --> 0:17:20.159
<v Speaker 1>the interview, and I was just waiting, like, she's going

0:17:20.200 --> 0:17:21.399
<v Speaker 1>to get to it. She's going to get to it.

0:17:21.440 --> 0:17:24.040
<v Speaker 1>And that part of it, which was the only thing

0:17:24.200 --> 0:17:27.640
<v Speaker 1>I actually reacted to, Wow, didn't even cross your mind.

0:17:27.720 --> 0:17:30.600
<v Speaker 1>It was just fascinating and I and I would encourage

0:17:30.640 --> 0:17:34.760
<v Speaker 1>anybody to have the conversation. If you have it with yourself, fine,

0:17:34.760 --> 0:17:37.360
<v Speaker 1>but have it with somebody in safety. But we try

0:17:37.359 --> 0:17:41.000
<v Speaker 1>to have these conversations publicly, they don't work because it

0:17:41.040 --> 0:17:42.800
<v Speaker 1>doesn't work in one hundred and forty or two hundred

0:17:42.800 --> 0:17:45.199
<v Speaker 1>and eighty characters, or we just we will all this

0:17:45.400 --> 0:17:47.560
<v Speaker 1>clap back we discussed before we even came on here,

0:17:47.680 --> 0:17:49.760
<v Speaker 1>like what word can I use to describe what's happening

0:17:49.760 --> 0:17:52.280
<v Speaker 1>because we're like, well, I don't want to use backlash,

0:17:52.320 --> 0:17:55.359
<v Speaker 1>don't because all these little catch words are being used

0:17:55.359 --> 0:17:57.359
<v Speaker 1>now to describe what this is. And what this is

0:17:57.520 --> 0:18:01.280
<v Speaker 1>is just a moment that we can all learn from.

0:18:01.359 --> 0:18:05.919
<v Speaker 1>It's infuriating for black folks. For one, I have to

0:18:06.040 --> 0:18:09.560
<v Speaker 1>endure the moment, and then two I have to explain

0:18:09.720 --> 0:18:13.520
<v Speaker 1>to you how to do better at that. That second

0:18:13.600 --> 0:18:15.920
<v Speaker 1>part is very difficult.

0:18:16.160 --> 0:18:18.480
<v Speaker 2>No, and I and I get it, and we we

0:18:18.640 --> 0:18:20.199
<v Speaker 2>You and I can talk about it, and it's a

0:18:20.240 --> 0:18:24.640
<v Speaker 2>safe space. There's there's obvious trust and love there between us.

0:18:24.640 --> 0:18:28.399
<v Speaker 2>So it's amazing to have these conversations and I totally

0:18:28.400 --> 0:18:31.879
<v Speaker 2>get the you know, it's like a double whammy to

0:18:31.920 --> 0:18:34.919
<v Speaker 2>then have to explain why that's offensive. But the truth

0:18:34.960 --> 0:18:37.600
<v Speaker 2>is this is really about, you know, the lens through

0:18:37.640 --> 0:18:40.640
<v Speaker 2>which we all see things, and we all immediately see

0:18:40.720 --> 0:18:44.080
<v Speaker 2>things through the lens of our own personal experiences, and

0:18:44.359 --> 0:18:47.919
<v Speaker 2>obviously I have no idea what it's like to be

0:18:47.960 --> 0:18:52.440
<v Speaker 2>black in America, and you're I am getting a much

0:18:52.560 --> 0:18:54.960
<v Speaker 2>clearer view of it. And I'll never know, obviously, but

0:18:55.080 --> 0:18:57.280
<v Speaker 2>seeing you and walking beside you and hearing you and

0:18:57.320 --> 0:19:00.600
<v Speaker 2>loving you and knowing things in a way that I

0:19:00.640 --> 0:19:02.560
<v Speaker 2>wouldn't have known even a few years ago when we

0:19:02.560 --> 0:19:05.320
<v Speaker 2>were just friends and open about lots of things. But

0:19:05.680 --> 0:19:08.480
<v Speaker 2>this is so much different now, and I just it's

0:19:08.520 --> 0:19:10.360
<v Speaker 2>a moment where we can all just take a step back,

0:19:10.400 --> 0:19:14.800
<v Speaker 2>because the reaction is to be defensive and to say, well,

0:19:14.920 --> 0:19:17.480
<v Speaker 2>you know, I don't think. I don't think about black

0:19:17.480 --> 0:19:19.680
<v Speaker 2>women that way. That's not how I view black women.

0:19:20.359 --> 0:19:24.600
<v Speaker 2>That's not what I think. But the truth is it's

0:19:24.680 --> 0:19:27.879
<v Speaker 2>in our heads. If it didn't register to me that

0:19:27.880 --> 0:19:31.760
<v Speaker 2>that was offensive, then I'm not being honest about how

0:19:32.520 --> 0:19:36.920
<v Speaker 2>black women are often portrayed, almost singularly portrayed, and how

0:19:36.960 --> 0:19:40.520
<v Speaker 2>we're all comfortable with that and it's not fair. And

0:19:40.560 --> 0:19:43.560
<v Speaker 2>so I'm so comfortable with that notion that it didn't

0:19:43.560 --> 0:19:46.119
<v Speaker 2>seem offensive to me, which is something I need to

0:19:46.200 --> 0:19:51.560
<v Speaker 2>examine and something we all need to examine as white

0:19:51.560 --> 0:19:55.119
<v Speaker 2>people because we don't understand what it's like to be

0:19:55.280 --> 0:19:58.399
<v Speaker 2>relegated to that in so many ways, and then to

0:19:58.440 --> 0:20:02.000
<v Speaker 2>think that that's just an okay thing to be. And

0:20:02.280 --> 0:20:06.359
<v Speaker 2>I learned a lot watching this clip, and I loved

0:20:06.400 --> 0:20:07.879
<v Speaker 2>how you did that. You didn't say anything to me,

0:20:07.960 --> 0:20:12.639
<v Speaker 2>You just said what did you think? And I restated

0:20:12.640 --> 0:20:14.520
<v Speaker 2>it all here at the beginning of the podcast, and

0:20:14.560 --> 0:20:18.359
<v Speaker 2>then to hear your reaction was it was mind blowing.

0:20:18.520 --> 0:20:21.399
<v Speaker 1>And again, Kamala Harry, this is bad. I mean, I

0:20:21.440 --> 0:20:25.600
<v Speaker 1>think in a lot of ways there's some effort out

0:20:25.600 --> 0:20:29.320
<v Speaker 1>there to humanize her, but a part of that, a

0:20:29.480 --> 0:20:31.480
<v Speaker 1>problem with that is that you also need to make

0:20:31.520 --> 0:20:35.359
<v Speaker 1>sure this woman is seen as capable and strong and

0:20:35.440 --> 0:20:39.680
<v Speaker 1>a potential president. And so this woman was the attorney

0:20:39.680 --> 0:20:41.639
<v Speaker 1>general the most populous state in the country, she was

0:20:41.680 --> 0:20:44.280
<v Speaker 1>a senator from the most populous state in the country.

0:20:44.320 --> 0:20:47.879
<v Speaker 1>She's the vice president and you and it just just

0:20:47.960 --> 0:20:51.320
<v Speaker 1>hug us and be our mammy. It's how it comes.

0:20:51.560 --> 0:20:54.000
<v Speaker 1>I'm not pleased. We have to be clear here. We

0:20:54.080 --> 0:20:58.199
<v Speaker 1>are not beating down on Drew barrymore for the moment

0:20:58.280 --> 0:21:01.600
<v Speaker 1>and how could you. But the moment is one that

0:21:01.760 --> 0:21:04.080
<v Speaker 1>is worth making note of and taking note of. And

0:21:04.119 --> 0:21:06.040
<v Speaker 1>we didn't want rov you and I didn't want to

0:21:06.080 --> 0:21:08.400
<v Speaker 1>just hop on and do a quick podcast. We wanted

0:21:08.440 --> 0:21:10.280
<v Speaker 1>to be deliberate and want the things to calm down

0:21:10.320 --> 0:21:11.720
<v Speaker 1>a little bit, and we wouldn't want to add to

0:21:11.760 --> 0:21:14.080
<v Speaker 1>the fire. But it is a teachable moment. It is

0:21:14.119 --> 0:21:18.520
<v Speaker 1>a moment to take note to see why. And my

0:21:18.560 --> 0:21:20.879
<v Speaker 1>first thought was Hattie McDaniel. One of my first was

0:21:20.920 --> 0:21:25.480
<v Speaker 1>Hattie McDaniel, first black person to win an oscar. She

0:21:25.600 --> 0:21:30.399
<v Speaker 1>won for Gone with Wind, She won for playing a slave.

0:21:32.640 --> 0:21:35.960
<v Speaker 1>Her name literally was Mammy in the movie. Her name

0:21:36.200 --> 0:21:39.199
<v Speaker 1>was Mammy, and it was her job to be in

0:21:39.280 --> 0:21:42.480
<v Speaker 1>service to this white family, to do it loyally with

0:21:42.600 --> 0:21:46.520
<v Speaker 1>no recognition. That is exactly the position that now so

0:21:46.600 --> 0:21:49.280
<v Speaker 1>many black women are being put in in this country

0:21:49.359 --> 0:21:52.000
<v Speaker 1>all the time of we gotta go solve the problem,

0:21:52.080 --> 0:21:55.359
<v Speaker 1>we have to go come in and be the saviors,

0:21:55.400 --> 0:21:59.320
<v Speaker 1>and we never get any recognition. It's another burden. And

0:21:59.400 --> 0:22:01.760
<v Speaker 1>to think that the vice president, the black woman, has

0:22:01.800 --> 0:22:04.679
<v Speaker 1>been reduced to that in that moment, No matter what

0:22:04.720 --> 0:22:08.199
<v Speaker 1>do you think about, Drew Barrymore was just tough and

0:22:08.280 --> 0:22:10.480
<v Speaker 1>even if you mean no harm, you can still do

0:22:10.600 --> 0:22:14.080
<v Speaker 1>some harm, and so the only way we reduce that

0:22:14.160 --> 0:22:18.400
<v Speaker 1>harm a little bit is by having just a loving

0:22:18.800 --> 0:22:21.359
<v Speaker 1>conversation about what we all just saw and how we

0:22:21.359 --> 0:22:22.960
<v Speaker 1>felt about it. And that's something you and I can

0:22:23.000 --> 0:22:25.280
<v Speaker 1>do privately. I don't know if it's happening publicly.

0:22:25.480 --> 0:22:30.520
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. And I saw someone wrote recently about just the

0:22:30.520 --> 0:22:35.760
<v Speaker 2>only maybe other strong female leader in this country that

0:22:35.760 --> 0:22:38.640
<v Speaker 2>we could point to maybe would be Hillary Clinton. I mean,

0:22:38.640 --> 0:22:40.840
<v Speaker 2>you could name some other names, but the most notable

0:22:40.880 --> 0:22:45.439
<v Speaker 2>one perhaps, And someone suggested, would anyone have asked Hillary

0:22:45.440 --> 0:22:50.080
<v Speaker 2>Clinton to be the mom of this country?

0:22:50.720 --> 0:22:53.040
<v Speaker 1>Yeah? No, I'm had to say that to me. I

0:22:53.080 --> 0:22:55.600
<v Speaker 1>don't know, because of her style and how she goes

0:22:55.600 --> 0:22:57.879
<v Speaker 1>about I don't know, but I doubt it. To you,

0:22:58.080 --> 0:22:59.159
<v Speaker 1>you're making the point.

0:22:59.640 --> 0:23:02.320
<v Speaker 2>Right, I mean, just just in case you're thinking, well,

0:23:02.320 --> 0:23:04.480
<v Speaker 2>come on, it's just something you might say to any woman.

0:23:05.280 --> 0:23:07.119
<v Speaker 2>I don't know that that's true. And I think just

0:23:07.160 --> 0:23:09.560
<v Speaker 2>to actually really think about it and sit with it

0:23:09.640 --> 0:23:14.240
<v Speaker 2>and think about what our ideas and thoughts are about

0:23:14.240 --> 0:23:17.879
<v Speaker 2>the role black women play in this country, in our lives,

0:23:17.960 --> 0:23:20.800
<v Speaker 2>in this world, and just it's worth being honest with

0:23:20.880 --> 0:23:26.160
<v Speaker 2>yourself about what our feelings are and what we've seen

0:23:26.240 --> 0:23:29.920
<v Speaker 2>and how black women have been portrayed and so it all,

0:23:30.400 --> 0:23:33.320
<v Speaker 2>you know, it all comes into play here when you

0:23:33.359 --> 0:23:37.040
<v Speaker 2>see what happened in that studio on Monday. And again

0:23:37.160 --> 0:23:39.320
<v Speaker 2>I agree, I don't think there was any ill intent,

0:23:39.960 --> 0:23:43.480
<v Speaker 2>but it is something to examine and to ask yourself.

0:23:43.800 --> 0:23:46.280
<v Speaker 1>And I go to the Oscars and it's such an

0:23:46.440 --> 0:23:50.840
<v Speaker 1>obvious case. But Hattie McDaniels, of course famously played the slave.

0:23:50.880 --> 0:23:53.560
<v Speaker 1>But you go through and look at I mean, Monique

0:23:53.720 --> 0:23:58.720
<v Speaker 1>won an Oscar for playing a welfare mother. Harry Barry

0:23:58.960 --> 0:24:02.920
<v Speaker 1>Barry be right, even with Pie Goldberg played some con

0:24:03.000 --> 0:24:06.480
<v Speaker 1>artists a charlatan by Ola Davis. Ela Davis and Octavia

0:24:06.520 --> 0:24:10.760
<v Speaker 1>Spencer both got nominations Oaktavia won it both as maids.

0:24:11.040 --> 0:24:15.119
<v Speaker 1>There's a history of this that why is it that

0:24:15.200 --> 0:24:19.600
<v Speaker 1>we are so comfortable needing black women to be in

0:24:19.800 --> 0:24:24.160
<v Speaker 1>certain roles to make us comfortable? If you're this, you're

0:24:24.160 --> 0:24:26.880
<v Speaker 1>the vice president, but I need you to be this

0:24:26.960 --> 0:24:30.520
<v Speaker 1>other thing that makes me more comfortable, and you in

0:24:30.680 --> 0:24:34.600
<v Speaker 1>service of me is how it is immediately interpreted by us.

0:24:34.640 --> 0:24:37.640
<v Speaker 1>And that's that's that's a tough one. Again, no matter

0:24:37.680 --> 0:24:42.000
<v Speaker 1>what Drew Barrymore might have thought in the moment you

0:24:42.080 --> 0:24:47.000
<v Speaker 1>made this is a very good example of how you've

0:24:47.040 --> 0:24:50.280
<v Speaker 1>watched things, or you have insight into the black community

0:24:50.320 --> 0:24:52.560
<v Speaker 1>and black folks and black men, and just being by

0:24:52.600 --> 0:24:57.679
<v Speaker 1>my side the way you have. But you know, this

0:24:57.760 --> 0:25:00.440
<v Speaker 1>drives me crazy. Is one of the most frustrated moments

0:25:00.480 --> 0:25:03.000
<v Speaker 1>I probably ever had at ABC News. But you were

0:25:03.040 --> 0:25:10.320
<v Speaker 1>there by my side during the Oscars twenty twenty two. Right, Yes, Yeah,

0:25:10.359 --> 0:25:14.560
<v Speaker 1>the slap herd around the world. We were in a

0:25:14.880 --> 0:25:17.119
<v Speaker 1>I can't remember the name of the hotel. It was

0:25:17.119 --> 0:25:18.560
<v Speaker 1>a watch party for the Oscar. We're out there the

0:25:18.560 --> 0:25:19.159
<v Speaker 1>cover of the Oscars.

0:25:19.240 --> 0:25:21.320
<v Speaker 2>Yes, we had just gotten off the red carpet.

0:25:21.440 --> 0:25:24.119
<v Speaker 1>Yes, And we go to this Oscar's watch party in

0:25:24.160 --> 0:25:27.240
<v Speaker 1>the lobby of the hotel where we all were big

0:25:27.280 --> 0:25:31.560
<v Speaker 1>screens up. The slap happens, right, Will Smith, Max, Chris Rock.

0:25:31.840 --> 0:25:33.800
<v Speaker 1>We couldn't try everybody's and shot it? Did that just happen?

0:25:33.960 --> 0:25:34.520
<v Speaker 3>Was that real?

0:25:35.160 --> 0:25:38.159
<v Speaker 1>Once we figured I was real, I was on the

0:25:38.240 --> 0:25:40.840
<v Speaker 1>phone within thirty seconds. You were right next to me.

0:25:41.040 --> 0:25:45.120
<v Speaker 1>I was, And who I called was one of my boys, Rodney,

0:25:45.160 --> 0:25:48.600
<v Speaker 1>who has been worked with Chris Rock for decades and

0:25:48.640 --> 0:25:50.280
<v Speaker 1>has been a part of some of his biggest specials

0:25:50.280 --> 0:25:51.960
<v Speaker 1>and helping him write them. But he's been a friend

0:25:52.000 --> 0:25:54.080
<v Speaker 1>for a long time. Trust his brother more than anything.

0:25:55.400 --> 0:25:59.359
<v Speaker 1>I call him immediately and he doesn't even say hello,

0:25:59.560 --> 0:26:03.240
<v Speaker 1>He just says, yeah, it was real. First thing is yeah,

0:26:03.280 --> 0:26:07.600
<v Speaker 1>it was real. But you saw a conversation take place

0:26:08.480 --> 0:26:13.639
<v Speaker 1>between two black men, like I'm literally within sixty seconds

0:26:13.640 --> 0:26:18.639
<v Speaker 1>of that slap happening. That showed that we as black

0:26:18.680 --> 0:26:22.200
<v Speaker 1>people were viewing that moment differently from you and how

0:26:22.240 --> 0:26:23.760
<v Speaker 1>you saw it and didn't even think about it in

0:26:23.800 --> 0:26:28.760
<v Speaker 1>the moment, because we saw it and immediately thought this

0:26:28.800 --> 0:26:33.600
<v Speaker 1>is bad for us, for black folks, because we got

0:26:33.640 --> 0:26:37.840
<v Speaker 1>a black producer, we got black folks nominated, we got

0:26:38.200 --> 0:26:40.520
<v Speaker 1>d Nice as the DJ at the This was the

0:26:40.600 --> 0:26:45.480
<v Speaker 1>Black Oscars and we know that to see two black

0:26:45.600 --> 0:26:49.040
<v Speaker 1>men who are on our mount rushmore essentially of entertainers

0:26:49.040 --> 0:26:52.520
<v Speaker 1>in my generation, Will Smith and Chris Rock. Can you

0:26:52.560 --> 0:26:56.120
<v Speaker 1>imagine seeing them roll around on the Oscar stage fighting

0:26:56.240 --> 0:27:00.359
<v Speaker 1>two black men. Chris Rock saved that Oscars by not

0:27:00.440 --> 0:27:04.080
<v Speaker 1>retaliating because we know this was the Black Oscars, and

0:27:04.119 --> 0:27:06.520
<v Speaker 1>white folks can now look and go see told you

0:27:06.640 --> 0:27:08.360
<v Speaker 1>see what happened when you put them in charge, see

0:27:08.359 --> 0:27:14.640
<v Speaker 1>what happens. See that was my immediate reaction that you saw,

0:27:14.840 --> 0:27:17.040
<v Speaker 1>And it never would have dawned on you that that

0:27:17.160 --> 0:27:17.680
<v Speaker 1>was happening.

0:27:17.720 --> 0:27:23.680
<v Speaker 2>You weren't just watching entertainment. You were personally devastated watching

0:27:23.680 --> 0:27:28.359
<v Speaker 2>it happen. And I would say just I think moments earlier,

0:27:28.440 --> 0:27:31.160
<v Speaker 2>we had an amazing red carpet interview with Will Packer.

0:27:31.240 --> 0:27:35.679
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, and you could see the excitement, the opportunity,

0:27:35.960 --> 0:27:40.240
<v Speaker 2>the opportunity to show the world what black people can do.

0:27:41.560 --> 0:27:47.000
<v Speaker 2>I saw the unbelievable disappointment and almost embarrassment, like you

0:27:47.040 --> 0:27:50.960
<v Speaker 2>were almost personally taking it on. And I saw that

0:27:51.800 --> 0:27:52.720
<v Speaker 2>and it was different.

0:27:53.400 --> 0:27:55.840
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so we then have to go the next morning

0:27:55.880 --> 0:27:57.919
<v Speaker 1>you saw something else. So we're getting ready to go on.

0:27:59.800 --> 0:28:01.960
<v Speaker 1>It was four am on the West coast, right the

0:28:02.000 --> 0:28:05.120
<v Speaker 1>show's live GMA at seven am on the East coast,

0:28:05.160 --> 0:28:07.520
<v Speaker 1>So we're up at four in front of a camera

0:28:07.840 --> 0:28:08.280
<v Speaker 1>up at four.

0:28:08.359 --> 0:28:09.680
<v Speaker 2>We didn't even go to bed. That I mean, we

0:28:09.800 --> 0:28:12.960
<v Speaker 2>were watching the whole thing and then the talk afterwards.

0:28:12.960 --> 0:28:15.400
<v Speaker 2>I mean, we never went to bed. We just went

0:28:15.480 --> 0:28:18.400
<v Speaker 2>straight onto the set of Good Morning America.

0:28:18.600 --> 0:28:22.000
<v Speaker 1>But starting the show before the show. There was another

0:28:22.160 --> 0:28:25.600
<v Speaker 1>another ABC talent there and we're talking. It's thirty folks

0:28:25.600 --> 0:28:28.760
<v Speaker 1>staying around between camera guys and harror and makeup and

0:28:28.880 --> 0:28:31.600
<v Speaker 1>tech folks and everybody's around, and we're standing in front

0:28:31.600 --> 0:28:35.200
<v Speaker 1>of the camera ready to go, several of us, and

0:28:35.400 --> 0:28:38.960
<v Speaker 1>we started talking about that moment, and this white counterpart

0:28:39.000 --> 0:28:45.280
<v Speaker 1>of mine said that they didn't see it that way

0:28:45.480 --> 0:28:48.600
<v Speaker 1>as we started talking about it and said, well, no,

0:28:48.640 --> 0:28:50.280
<v Speaker 1>I watched it too, and I was you know, I

0:28:50.400 --> 0:28:52.400
<v Speaker 1>was hurt, I was offend. I was just couldn't believe

0:28:52.400 --> 0:28:54.320
<v Speaker 1>and I said, no, no, but what I'm saying is

0:28:54.320 --> 0:28:57.160
<v Speaker 1>as black folks, we were watching and this means something

0:28:57.200 --> 0:29:00.320
<v Speaker 1>different to us, and da da DA shut me down.

0:29:00.360 --> 0:29:05.040
<v Speaker 1>This person did and said, no, TJ, you're making it

0:29:05.120 --> 0:29:08.080
<v Speaker 1>something it's not and you're looking at it the wrong way.

0:29:09.120 --> 0:29:11.240
<v Speaker 1>You were standing right next to yes.

0:29:12.080 --> 0:29:16.520
<v Speaker 2>This person said, we all felt it the same. You

0:29:16.560 --> 0:29:20.160
<v Speaker 2>didn't feel it any differently than me, and was actually

0:29:20.240 --> 0:29:25.840
<v Speaker 2>offended that you had or were claiming to have a

0:29:26.000 --> 0:29:29.440
<v Speaker 2>different reaction than this person. And I can tell you

0:29:29.480 --> 0:29:32.040
<v Speaker 2>watching it, and by the way, I want to actually say,

0:29:32.280 --> 0:29:38.120
<v Speaker 2>you were tasked with starting this conversation because of what

0:29:38.160 --> 0:29:41.080
<v Speaker 2>you just mentioned you were asked to talk about what

0:29:41.160 --> 0:29:43.640
<v Speaker 2>it was like for you to watch, what it was

0:29:43.800 --> 0:29:47.120
<v Speaker 2>like for you to experience, and so you were because

0:29:47.160 --> 0:29:49.840
<v Speaker 2>you don't script anything out, you were talking it through

0:29:50.440 --> 0:29:52.600
<v Speaker 2>before we went on the air, and that's when this

0:29:52.720 --> 0:29:57.960
<v Speaker 2>person told you that you couldn't have shouldn't have seen

0:29:58.000 --> 0:30:01.680
<v Speaker 2>things any differently than everyone else in the room. And

0:30:01.760 --> 0:30:04.280
<v Speaker 2>I knew what was about to happen. Ha.

0:30:05.440 --> 0:30:08.040
<v Speaker 1>Look, I had to and I had to keep it

0:30:08.080 --> 0:30:11.600
<v Speaker 1>cool at the time, But that was such a stark

0:30:12.440 --> 0:30:15.960
<v Speaker 1>illustration of it's okay for us to see things differently,

0:30:16.240 --> 0:30:19.360
<v Speaker 1>but we as black folks get really offended when we're

0:30:19.400 --> 0:30:23.240
<v Speaker 1>told by our white counterparts that we are not justified

0:30:23.280 --> 0:30:27.200
<v Speaker 1>in our unique experience in this country. And so if

0:30:27.240 --> 0:30:30.200
<v Speaker 1>anyone is looking at the Drew Barrymore Kamala Harris interview

0:30:30.200 --> 0:30:33.560
<v Speaker 1>and said, nah, you're making something that is not We're

0:30:33.600 --> 0:30:37.400
<v Speaker 1>having different experiences, and that's okay, that's actually okay. But

0:30:37.480 --> 0:30:42.280
<v Speaker 1>anytime we're denied the right, and in that moment at GMA,

0:30:42.760 --> 0:30:46.239
<v Speaker 1>on this out in the field, being told that you

0:30:46.400 --> 0:30:49.760
<v Speaker 1>are not justified, you do not have a unique experience,

0:30:49.800 --> 0:30:53.120
<v Speaker 1>you do not have the right to your own black experience,

0:30:54.800 --> 0:30:57.840
<v Speaker 1>giving you a perspective on the same thing we're watching.

0:30:58.280 --> 0:31:01.680
<v Speaker 1>I was told flat out, no, you are wrong for

0:31:01.760 --> 0:31:04.080
<v Speaker 1>how you're feeling by a white person.

0:31:04.280 --> 0:31:07.160
<v Speaker 2>You were completely invalidated, and that has to be an

0:31:07.160 --> 0:31:11.720
<v Speaker 2>incredibly frustrating thing. And I think for me to watch it,

0:31:11.800 --> 0:31:17.480
<v Speaker 2>I'm telling you my jaw dropped because to tell someone

0:31:18.120 --> 0:31:22.360
<v Speaker 2>that their experience isn't valid or real, or their feelings

0:31:22.760 --> 0:31:27.200
<v Speaker 2>don't count or the fact, or to even consider that

0:31:27.280 --> 0:31:31.040
<v Speaker 2>you could have a different perspective based on how you

0:31:31.280 --> 0:31:33.600
<v Speaker 2>have come up in the world. That is when it

0:31:33.760 --> 0:31:37.440
<v Speaker 2>really turns ugly and sad to me, because can we

0:31:37.520 --> 0:31:41.480
<v Speaker 2>all acknowledge that we see things differently? And more importantly,

0:31:41.760 --> 0:31:46.000
<v Speaker 2>we can learn from each other's perspectives and each other's experiences,

0:31:46.040 --> 0:31:48.440
<v Speaker 2>but you can't invalidate them, because then there's no place

0:31:48.480 --> 0:31:51.920
<v Speaker 2>to start from. You have to at least give someone

0:31:52.320 --> 0:31:56.880
<v Speaker 2>the credit and the understanding that they have a different

0:31:56.920 --> 0:32:01.000
<v Speaker 2>experience and it's not wrong and it's not fake. It's

0:32:01.080 --> 0:32:03.800
<v Speaker 2>just not your experience. So, yeah, that was an amazing thing.

0:32:03.800 --> 0:32:05.560
<v Speaker 2>And I remember you looked around the room and I

0:32:05.600 --> 0:32:07.600
<v Speaker 2>don't know how many people it was a big production.

0:32:07.920 --> 0:32:11.920
<v Speaker 2>Would you say there were I don't know twenty thirty people.

0:32:11.760 --> 0:32:13.000
<v Speaker 1>Oh for sure, at least thirty.

0:32:13.240 --> 0:32:17.120
<v Speaker 2>There was only one other. There was a black man

0:32:17.320 --> 0:32:22.920
<v Speaker 2>right camera, and you said hello, and you shout it

0:32:22.960 --> 0:32:25.720
<v Speaker 2>out to him, You said, can you help me out here?

0:32:25.840 --> 0:32:28.000
<v Speaker 2>Like you know, we saw things differently.

0:32:28.080 --> 0:32:30.920
<v Speaker 1>The point there is that so many times black folks,

0:32:30.960 --> 0:32:33.719
<v Speaker 1>and certainly when you get into certain environments in corporate

0:32:33.760 --> 0:32:36.400
<v Speaker 1>America where you're sitting and I'm in an environment to

0:32:36.440 --> 0:32:38.480
<v Speaker 1>where there are thirty people in a room, they're twenty

0:32:38.520 --> 0:32:42.200
<v Speaker 1>eight white. Two black guys have a particular perspective about something.

0:32:42.280 --> 0:32:45.200
<v Speaker 1>So the twenty eight white folks agree on their perspective.

0:32:45.480 --> 0:32:47.920
<v Speaker 1>So you two are the minority perspective, So you must

0:32:48.000 --> 0:32:50.840
<v Speaker 1>be wrong. There's no way twenty eight of us are

0:32:50.880 --> 0:32:53.800
<v Speaker 1>seeing it the wrong way, So you two must be wrong.

0:32:53.920 --> 0:32:57.680
<v Speaker 1>That happens so often. It happened. It was you know

0:32:57.800 --> 0:33:02.240
<v Speaker 1>this my frustration oftentimes in this world to where I

0:33:02.360 --> 0:33:05.480
<v Speaker 1>go in this world, in this media landscape, to where

0:33:05.520 --> 0:33:07.640
<v Speaker 1>you go to your morning meetings, your afternoon meetings, and

0:33:07.680 --> 0:33:09.920
<v Speaker 1>you're the only black person in the room and you're

0:33:09.960 --> 0:33:12.160
<v Speaker 1>trying to convince a whole room of folks that you

0:33:12.240 --> 0:33:15.840
<v Speaker 1>are correct when they don't get it. Because they don't

0:33:15.880 --> 0:33:18.680
<v Speaker 1>live your experience. It was the saying the GMA staff meetings,

0:33:18.800 --> 0:33:20.760
<v Speaker 1>thirty people in the room. If I didn't go, there

0:33:20.840 --> 0:33:22.720
<v Speaker 1>was really that might not be a black man in

0:33:22.760 --> 0:33:25.880
<v Speaker 1>the room at all. And I had to for years

0:33:25.960 --> 0:33:29.760
<v Speaker 1>hear people when they're pitching a story having to do

0:33:29.840 --> 0:33:34.600
<v Speaker 1>with a potential black interviewee. They would add, he speaks

0:33:34.600 --> 0:33:38.120
<v Speaker 1>so well, he's really well spoken. Yeah, this business owner

0:33:38.160 --> 0:33:41.920
<v Speaker 1>out in San Francisco. Yeah, yeah, but it's okay. He's

0:33:41.920 --> 0:33:46.200
<v Speaker 1>well spoken, but it's okay. He's a good talker. That

0:33:47.800 --> 0:33:51.000
<v Speaker 1>it happens so often. And then I finally spoke up

0:33:51.160 --> 0:33:53.480
<v Speaker 1>one day about it, and you know, the first thing

0:33:53.520 --> 0:33:56.960
<v Speaker 1>out of somebody's mouth after I stopped talking, Yeah, women

0:33:57.000 --> 0:33:58.480
<v Speaker 1>deal with this kind of thing all the time. It

0:33:58.520 --> 0:34:03.000
<v Speaker 1>immediately undercut, took away everything I said, and they went

0:34:03.080 --> 0:34:06.440
<v Speaker 1>back to their own thing. And now I didn't expect this,

0:34:06.600 --> 0:34:09.400
<v Speaker 1>and you didn't. We talked about this podcast on I

0:34:09.400 --> 0:34:11.640
<v Speaker 1>didn't expect to be vending or talking about it this way.

0:34:11.680 --> 0:34:16.120
<v Speaker 1>But I find the Drew Barrymore Kamala Harris situation a valuable, valuable,

0:34:16.239 --> 0:34:20.480
<v Speaker 1>valuable teaching moment if we will embrace it. And the

0:34:20.520 --> 0:34:23.839
<v Speaker 1>only way you can embrace it is by acknowledging. What

0:34:23.960 --> 0:34:27.160
<v Speaker 1>you Robock acknowledge is that you know what I looked

0:34:27.160 --> 0:34:29.920
<v Speaker 1>at it and that moment didn't even register to me.

0:34:30.200 --> 0:34:32.920
<v Speaker 1>So let me listen to somebody else who this did impact.

0:34:33.200 --> 0:34:35.560
<v Speaker 1>That doesn't happen enough, and it doesn't happen publicly.

0:34:35.600 --> 0:34:45.960
<v Speaker 3>I would argue, Yeah, it's time to hear her side

0:34:45.960 --> 0:34:46.600
<v Speaker 3>of the story.

0:34:46.920 --> 0:34:49.440
<v Speaker 2>I love the show so much. I was like, please

0:34:49.520 --> 0:34:50.520
<v Speaker 2>throw my name in the mix.

0:34:50.640 --> 0:34:51.799
<v Speaker 3>I need to be in on this.

0:34:52.080 --> 0:34:54.200
<v Speaker 4>We were sure she was going to be the next

0:34:54.239 --> 0:34:57.440
<v Speaker 4>bachelorette and then something changed.

0:34:57.760 --> 0:34:59.640
<v Speaker 2>I'm giving things very very hush hush.

0:35:00.000 --> 0:35:02.960
<v Speaker 4>Fans of The Bachelor know exactly what we're talking about.

0:35:03.440 --> 0:35:07.279
<v Speaker 4>Joe and Serena sit down for an intimate conversation with.

0:35:07.360 --> 0:35:09.959
<v Speaker 2>Maria Georgis on Bachelor Happy Hour.

0:35:10.239 --> 0:35:13.560
<v Speaker 4>I have to ask, I heard a rumor that you

0:35:14.160 --> 0:35:17.240
<v Speaker 4>were dating at one point one of Drake's best friends.

0:35:17.719 --> 0:35:19.120
<v Speaker 3>Oh, we have more Sami.

0:35:19.520 --> 0:35:24.040
<v Speaker 4>Listen to Bachelor Happy Hour on America's number one podcast network, iHeart,

0:35:24.280 --> 0:35:27.279
<v Speaker 4>open your free iHeart app and search Bachelor Happy Hour.

0:35:27.800 --> 0:35:30.480
<v Speaker 4>Listen now everywhere you listen to podcasts, and don't miss

0:35:30.520 --> 0:35:32.200
<v Speaker 4>part two Monday Night.

0:35:38.120 --> 0:35:42.600
<v Speaker 2>To your point, the last story you just told about,

0:35:42.680 --> 0:35:45.880
<v Speaker 2>you know, immediately referring or relating it back to what

0:35:46.000 --> 0:35:48.880
<v Speaker 2>women go through. I do think in this case, and

0:35:48.920 --> 0:35:52.319
<v Speaker 2>in so many of the cases, there is this absolute

0:35:52.400 --> 0:35:56.520
<v Speaker 2>desire to connect to your pain or to connect to

0:35:56.640 --> 0:36:02.120
<v Speaker 2>your story, but in doing so completely invalidates your point

0:36:02.280 --> 0:36:04.239
<v Speaker 2>where you just bring it back to what you know

0:36:04.440 --> 0:36:06.759
<v Speaker 2>or what you've gone through or what you've experienced. And

0:36:06.800 --> 0:36:09.759
<v Speaker 2>I know that is a human tendency, but it's incredibly

0:36:09.800 --> 0:36:15.480
<v Speaker 2>offensive and you're not actually listening. You're not actually saying, wow,

0:36:15.600 --> 0:36:18.360
<v Speaker 2>I didn't realize that. Tell me more. And I always

0:36:18.400 --> 0:36:20.440
<v Speaker 2>feel like if you can just follow up with a

0:36:20.520 --> 0:36:23.279
<v Speaker 2>question about what that person's asking, I've learned the hard way.

0:36:23.320 --> 0:36:26.000
<v Speaker 2>Instead of just relating it back to yourself or what

0:36:26.040 --> 0:36:27.520
<v Speaker 2>you could say, oh, well, I know what that feels

0:36:27.520 --> 0:36:30.560
<v Speaker 2>like too. Actually, guess what, most of the time we

0:36:30.640 --> 0:36:32.680
<v Speaker 2>don't know what it feels like. So maybe how about

0:36:32.719 --> 0:36:35.239
<v Speaker 2>follow up with a question, follow up with deeper understanding.

0:36:35.400 --> 0:36:38.640
<v Speaker 2>It's just an opportunity the next time your brain might

0:36:38.719 --> 0:36:40.960
<v Speaker 2>go to relating it back to yourself or relating it

0:36:40.960 --> 0:36:44.200
<v Speaker 2>back to something you have, maybe in the most genuine

0:36:44.200 --> 0:36:46.000
<v Speaker 2>of ways, to try and connect to people and to

0:36:46.000 --> 0:36:50.320
<v Speaker 2>be a part of something instead acknowledge that you probably

0:36:50.360 --> 0:36:53.400
<v Speaker 2>don't know anything about what this person's been through or

0:36:53.480 --> 0:36:56.680
<v Speaker 2>has gone through, and ask some questions to learn instead

0:36:56.719 --> 0:36:59.120
<v Speaker 2>of trying to bring it back to yourself or trying

0:36:59.160 --> 0:37:02.600
<v Speaker 2>to say too. And so I just feel like that

0:37:02.800 --> 0:37:05.839
<v Speaker 2>is something that we can learn from and something that

0:37:06.239 --> 0:37:10.600
<v Speaker 2>we've talked about. And I've had to actually retrain my brain.

0:37:10.640 --> 0:37:13.239
<v Speaker 2>I think it's a it's a human thing. Maybe it's

0:37:13.280 --> 0:37:15.680
<v Speaker 2>a privileged thing. I don't know, but I know that

0:37:16.360 --> 0:37:20.480
<v Speaker 2>I have had to reevaluate where my brain goes first,

0:37:21.360 --> 0:37:25.280
<v Speaker 2>and to really try to ask a question next instead

0:37:25.280 --> 0:37:27.640
<v Speaker 2>of just saying, well, here's what I think or here's

0:37:27.680 --> 0:37:30.360
<v Speaker 2>what I believe. And I think that could go a

0:37:30.440 --> 0:37:33.040
<v Speaker 2>long way in these types of conversations and viewing things,

0:37:33.080 --> 0:37:40.000
<v Speaker 2>and and also just readily acknowledging and admitting that my

0:37:40.080 --> 0:37:43.360
<v Speaker 2>brain didn't go there. I didn't think about it that way,

0:37:43.440 --> 0:37:47.040
<v Speaker 2>and that's okay. But I can learn why didn't it

0:37:47.360 --> 0:37:50.440
<v Speaker 2>and then understand why it didn't, and that goes a

0:37:50.440 --> 0:37:54.160
<v Speaker 2>long way into actually truly connecting to someone's experience.

0:37:54.600 --> 0:37:57.400
<v Speaker 1>Most of those have to possibly happen in private. I

0:37:57.480 --> 0:38:00.640
<v Speaker 1>encourage folks to have those private conversations, right, we were

0:38:00.640 --> 0:38:03.440
<v Speaker 1>not having it on a grander scale or on a

0:38:03.640 --> 0:38:07.040
<v Speaker 1>TV somewhere and these larger But you and I have

0:38:07.160 --> 0:38:11.800
<v Speaker 1>gotten so far in our conversations because they're private, because

0:38:11.840 --> 0:38:13.920
<v Speaker 1>we respect each other, because we love each other. We

0:38:14.000 --> 0:38:16.280
<v Speaker 1>know where our hearts and heads are, and it's okay

0:38:16.680 --> 0:38:19.320
<v Speaker 1>to make a mistake in private, and what you're saying,

0:38:19.320 --> 0:38:21.600
<v Speaker 1>you need to have that in safety. So my first

0:38:21.640 --> 0:38:25.080
<v Speaker 1>thought when I saw and I told you that I

0:38:25.160 --> 0:38:28.880
<v Speaker 1>wanted to When I heard it, I was so like

0:38:28.960 --> 0:38:31.479
<v Speaker 1>I said, I had a visceral reaction when she said

0:38:31.520 --> 0:38:34.960
<v Speaker 1>this to Kamala Harris, and I was so bothered. But

0:38:35.000 --> 0:38:38.920
<v Speaker 1>then it took a matter of seconds and I wanted

0:38:38.920 --> 0:38:41.040
<v Speaker 1>to take Drew Barrymore to lunch and just talk to

0:38:41.080 --> 0:38:43.920
<v Speaker 1>her in a safe place, not to educate her, but

0:38:44.360 --> 0:38:48.960
<v Speaker 1>she needs a safe place. And the biggest issue. We're

0:38:49.000 --> 0:38:53.399
<v Speaker 1>not sitting here criticizing Drew Barrymore at all, but if

0:38:53.400 --> 0:38:58.480
<v Speaker 1>there's any place we get close to criticism, our minds

0:38:58.520 --> 0:39:03.120
<v Speaker 1>are blown that no one flag this because this show

0:39:03.760 --> 0:39:06.880
<v Speaker 1>was not live, it was taped, and it was taped.

0:39:07.080 --> 0:39:10.839
<v Speaker 1>You told me this, I think yesterday. Wait, they had

0:39:10.880 --> 0:39:11.799
<v Speaker 1>how many days with this.

0:39:12.560 --> 0:39:16.320
<v Speaker 2>Well, I read that they taped this on the Wednesday before.

0:39:16.560 --> 0:39:19.080
<v Speaker 2>I know for a fact they gave clips and excerpts

0:39:19.080 --> 0:39:22.560
<v Speaker 2>to People Magazine on the Friday before, and then it

0:39:22.560 --> 0:39:25.480
<v Speaker 2>aired on Mondays. So at the very least they had

0:39:25.600 --> 0:39:31.279
<v Speaker 2>the weekend, the producers, the editors, you know, to make

0:39:31.320 --> 0:39:33.799
<v Speaker 2>sure that the best product went out. I know that

0:39:34.280 --> 0:39:35.840
<v Speaker 2>I don't know all the details of how long the

0:39:35.880 --> 0:39:38.640
<v Speaker 2>interview was, but from what I've read, Drew does long

0:39:38.680 --> 0:39:40.480
<v Speaker 2>interviews and then they cut them down and put the

0:39:40.520 --> 0:39:44.480
<v Speaker 2>best clips for the actual interview that airs, which makes

0:39:44.480 --> 0:39:46.680
<v Speaker 2>a lot of sense. We all did that in broadcasting.

0:39:46.719 --> 0:39:50.040
<v Speaker 2>That makes sense. But to think that there were I

0:39:50.080 --> 0:39:53.560
<v Speaker 2>don't know how many people in the room who had

0:39:53.600 --> 0:39:56.799
<v Speaker 2>to say in the final cut, no one flagged this,

0:39:57.080 --> 0:40:01.680
<v Speaker 2>and you pointed out in terms of I don't know

0:40:01.719 --> 0:40:04.719
<v Speaker 2>what the what the diversity is on her staff, but

0:40:04.880 --> 0:40:07.759
<v Speaker 2>it just begs the question, how did no one flag this?

0:40:07.840 --> 0:40:10.320
<v Speaker 2>How did no one see this? If you have, you know,

0:40:10.320 --> 0:40:13.040
<v Speaker 2>a bunch of me in the room, white folks, maybe yeah,

0:40:12.840 --> 0:40:15.520
<v Speaker 2>you might say, well, that's just Drew's style and that's

0:40:15.560 --> 0:40:19.160
<v Speaker 2>just what she does. But to flag the potential potential

0:40:20.239 --> 0:40:23.640
<v Speaker 2>problem that this would be for so many black folks

0:40:23.680 --> 0:40:28.480
<v Speaker 2>watching this. That's that kind of that's puzzling.

0:40:28.360 --> 0:40:33.120
<v Speaker 1>Because we know that we've been in this business television

0:40:33.120 --> 0:40:36.680
<v Speaker 1>for a long long time. There are so many especially

0:40:36.680 --> 0:40:39.640
<v Speaker 1>when a big interview, there are so many eyes on it.

0:40:39.719 --> 0:40:41.960
<v Speaker 1>But even if we don't know behind the scenes how

0:40:42.000 --> 0:40:44.439
<v Speaker 1>many got to see it, we do know this. There's

0:40:44.480 --> 0:40:51.920
<v Speaker 1>camera guys, there's stage hands, there's a stage manager, there's

0:40:51.960 --> 0:40:55.360
<v Speaker 1>an audio guy. There's a director, there's a technical director.

0:40:55.680 --> 0:40:58.600
<v Speaker 1>These folks just have to see it no matter what. Right,

0:40:58.640 --> 0:41:01.839
<v Speaker 1>So we're up to maybe six to ten people who

0:41:01.880 --> 0:41:05.560
<v Speaker 1>are not even involved in the editor editorial process, who

0:41:05.840 --> 0:41:08.640
<v Speaker 1>heard and saw this take place. Now you go to

0:41:08.719 --> 0:41:12.680
<v Speaker 1>the producers, the host, the editors sitting in the room

0:41:12.760 --> 0:41:18.920
<v Speaker 1>putting it together. It is a little baffling that nobody said, uh, guys,

0:41:18.960 --> 0:41:24.920
<v Speaker 1>this part right here. That that part is fascinating to me. Like,

0:41:25.000 --> 0:41:27.240
<v Speaker 1>no matter what you remember, I used to come around,

0:41:27.400 --> 0:41:30.160
<v Speaker 1>I wouldn't put a show on GMA or story on

0:41:30.200 --> 0:41:35.200
<v Speaker 1>GMA had to do with the LGBTQ plus community. I

0:41:35.239 --> 0:41:39.000
<v Speaker 1>would go ask DeAndre gay brother we had working there

0:41:39.000 --> 0:41:41.000
<v Speaker 1>at the time. I would go ask somebody, Hey, if

0:41:41.040 --> 0:41:43.000
<v Speaker 1>I say it this way, or can you look at

0:41:43.000 --> 0:41:45.120
<v Speaker 1>this for me? Or can you read this? I would

0:41:45.120 --> 0:41:45.800
<v Speaker 1>come to your dress.

0:41:45.880 --> 0:41:48.680
<v Speaker 2>You came into our dressing room, my dressing room all

0:41:48.680 --> 0:41:51.520
<v Speaker 2>the time asking about you know, female issues, Like what

0:41:51.560 --> 0:41:54.120
<v Speaker 2>would you say, is this okay? Would this be offensive?

0:41:54.400 --> 0:41:58.080
<v Speaker 2>I mean, that's what you do beforehand, but even after

0:41:58.160 --> 0:42:00.440
<v Speaker 2>the fact, especially when you have time and we've all

0:42:00.480 --> 0:42:03.080
<v Speaker 2>had big interviews, big heavy weighted interviews that you know

0:42:03.120 --> 0:42:04.520
<v Speaker 2>are going to get a lot of eyeballs, that you

0:42:04.600 --> 0:42:06.600
<v Speaker 2>know is going to have a lot of scrutiny. I

0:42:06.640 --> 0:42:08.560
<v Speaker 2>don't understand how no one flagged that.

0:42:09.160 --> 0:42:13.080
<v Speaker 1>I don't understand so to in that regard, I'm like, wow,

0:42:13.120 --> 0:42:16.360
<v Speaker 1>she needs like there's someone who's got to be looking

0:42:16.400 --> 0:42:18.560
<v Speaker 1>out better for her. You can argue she should have

0:42:18.640 --> 0:42:22.919
<v Speaker 1>known better. Fine, fine, fine, fine, but there's just that's

0:42:23.000 --> 0:42:27.279
<v Speaker 1>just not on her. And maybe some feel like she

0:42:27.320 --> 0:42:29.560
<v Speaker 1>didn't make a mistake at all, that there's nothing wrong

0:42:29.640 --> 0:42:32.520
<v Speaker 1>with what she said, that there it's okay, and that

0:42:32.560 --> 0:42:35.319
<v Speaker 1>people are making too much out of it. Then those

0:42:35.440 --> 0:42:39.319
<v Speaker 1>those folks, I beg you really to take a beat,

0:42:39.600 --> 0:42:42.640
<v Speaker 1>do a little reading, and try to understand a different

0:42:42.760 --> 0:42:46.520
<v Speaker 1>perspective and not just dismiss it. We can all be

0:42:46.560 --> 0:42:48.480
<v Speaker 1>looking at the exact same thing and have a different

0:42:48.480 --> 0:42:50.719
<v Speaker 1>reaction to it, as was the case with me and you.

0:42:51.000 --> 0:42:55.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and I think, what's promising about this? Or maybe

0:42:55.040 --> 0:42:58.000
<v Speaker 2>just this naive hope I might have that because there

0:42:58.080 --> 0:43:01.080
<v Speaker 2>was no mal intent, I don't, and because there was

0:43:01.400 --> 0:43:04.840
<v Speaker 2>something ugly or mean spirited that was said at all,

0:43:05.239 --> 0:43:08.279
<v Speaker 2>that actually this is a shining example of something that

0:43:08.320 --> 0:43:10.960
<v Speaker 2>we could look at and say, ah, I can see

0:43:10.960 --> 0:43:13.360
<v Speaker 2>how we can do better because no one did anything

0:43:13.400 --> 0:43:19.080
<v Speaker 2>deliberately or intentionally wrong, and yet still the messaging needs

0:43:19.120 --> 0:43:23.279
<v Speaker 2>to be addressed, needs to be acknowledged, and we need

0:43:23.280 --> 0:43:23.840
<v Speaker 2>to do better.

0:43:25.120 --> 0:43:30.000
<v Speaker 1>My last, if folks don't don't believe, I want everybody

0:43:30.040 --> 0:43:33.279
<v Speaker 1>to look up Michelle Nichols. I think I've been talking

0:43:33.280 --> 0:43:38.600
<v Speaker 1>about her for I mean, probably twenty years, but she's

0:43:38.640 --> 0:43:42.919
<v Speaker 1>somebody I thought about with this and that she played

0:43:42.960 --> 0:43:44.960
<v Speaker 1>lieutenant of her. If folks don't know she was the

0:43:45.000 --> 0:43:48.440
<v Speaker 1>original lieutenant of her was Zoe Saldana, Oh yeah, she

0:43:48.480 --> 0:43:50.880
<v Speaker 1>played lieutenant of her in the New Star Trek. But

0:43:51.000 --> 0:43:54.680
<v Speaker 1>this lady was the original old school black lady lieutenant

0:43:54.800 --> 0:43:58.439
<v Speaker 1>her own Star Trek, and she had decided to quit

0:43:58.480 --> 0:44:03.399
<v Speaker 1>the show this is the nineteen sixties. I can't remember

0:44:03.400 --> 0:44:05.759
<v Speaker 1>which year, but she decided I'm gonna quit because she

0:44:05.800 --> 0:44:07.440
<v Speaker 1>went to go to Broadway did some other thing. Broadway

0:44:07.520 --> 0:44:09.960
<v Speaker 1>was more profitable, the bigger deal, more prestigious than some

0:44:10.280 --> 0:44:13.040
<v Speaker 1>little TV show about some stuff tracks star trek Ye.

0:44:13.880 --> 0:44:18.279
<v Speaker 1>It seems crazy to think, but she just I'm gonna juggernaut, right.

0:44:18.400 --> 0:44:21.440
<v Speaker 1>She quit so she could go do Broadway. She had

0:44:21.520 --> 0:44:24.400
<v Speaker 1>a chance meeting with Martin Luther King Jr. In Detroit.

0:44:24.440 --> 0:44:27.879
<v Speaker 1>I believe it was in which he was talking about

0:44:28.440 --> 0:44:31.160
<v Speaker 1>he was a tricky. He was so excited to meet her. Say,

0:44:31.200 --> 0:44:34.520
<v Speaker 1>it's the only show that they let the King kids

0:44:34.560 --> 0:44:39.239
<v Speaker 1>stay up and watch. And she told him I'm gonna

0:44:39.280 --> 0:44:42.000
<v Speaker 1>miss it. And he said, wait, wait what she told

0:44:42.040 --> 0:44:45.279
<v Speaker 1>him she was gonna quit. He told her how she

0:44:45.320 --> 0:44:49.440
<v Speaker 1>recalls the story, you are the first black person to

0:44:49.480 --> 0:44:52.520
<v Speaker 1>be on TV that is not a maid, a slave,

0:44:52.840 --> 0:44:58.720
<v Speaker 1>a servant. It's showing us strong, intelligent, beautiful, capable black people.

0:44:59.640 --> 0:45:01.879
<v Speaker 1>You are doing just as much for us by being

0:45:01.960 --> 0:45:04.440
<v Speaker 1>on TV as we're doing out here in the streets.

0:45:04.600 --> 0:45:07.879
<v Speaker 1>You cannot quit. And she didn't quit, And the rest

0:45:07.960 --> 0:45:14.480
<v Speaker 1>is history. Doctor King understood even back then, how important

0:45:14.520 --> 0:45:18.359
<v Speaker 1>it was for black people to be seen a certain way,

0:45:20.000 --> 0:45:23.719
<v Speaker 1>and to think that this day and age, that the

0:45:23.840 --> 0:45:28.440
<v Speaker 1>vice president, a black woman, is still being reduced in

0:45:28.520 --> 0:45:34.680
<v Speaker 1>some way to nothing more than service is what I

0:45:34.800 --> 0:45:39.520
<v Speaker 1>desperately want everybody please to try to take that, to

0:45:39.640 --> 0:45:43.040
<v Speaker 1>take that in to where it's not just a matter

0:45:43.040 --> 0:45:46.400
<v Speaker 1>of somebody sitting too close on the couch or It

0:45:47.000 --> 0:45:50.600
<v Speaker 1>means so much more than just a cringey interview, and

0:45:50.640 --> 0:45:55.040
<v Speaker 1>it's a very important and valuable moment if we're willing

0:45:55.840 --> 0:45:58.880
<v Speaker 1>to be honest. Maybe not in public, but please, I

0:45:58.880 --> 0:46:02.279
<v Speaker 1>beg you to be honest private about how you really

0:46:02.320 --> 0:46:04.880
<v Speaker 1>reacted to what you saw and how you reacted to

0:46:05.000 --> 0:46:06.799
<v Speaker 1>some black people's reaction to it.

0:46:08.440 --> 0:46:11.279
<v Speaker 2>What I just don't think. I think you said it

0:46:11.320 --> 0:46:13.120
<v Speaker 2>so well. I think that's the perfect way to end,

0:46:13.120 --> 0:46:13.839
<v Speaker 2>and I think that's what.

0:46:14.000 --> 0:46:14.640
<v Speaker 1>Are you looking at me?

0:46:15.120 --> 0:46:16.759
<v Speaker 2>Well, No, I was looking at you. Actually, I was

0:46:16.840 --> 0:46:19.799
<v Speaker 2>admiring what you said, because I do. I was looking

0:46:19.800 --> 0:46:22.879
<v Speaker 2>at you with love actually, but no, and I yeah,

0:46:22.960 --> 0:46:25.600
<v Speaker 2>that was love and admiration. Did what did it look like?

0:46:26.600 --> 0:46:30.480
<v Speaker 1>It looked like I had done something wrong and.

0:46:30.200 --> 0:46:31.840
<v Speaker 2>I need to work on my facial expressions.

0:46:31.960 --> 0:46:34.560
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, look like it doesn't wrong. Oh, this wasn't It

0:46:34.600 --> 0:46:37.359
<v Speaker 1>wasn't supposed to be an emotional thing. It's just it's

0:46:37.400 --> 0:46:38.880
<v Speaker 1>one thing. If you don't get it, we're okay. If

0:46:38.920 --> 0:46:40.600
<v Speaker 1>you don't understand it, don't get it. But if you

0:46:40.640 --> 0:46:45.640
<v Speaker 1>deny us the opportunity to have our own experience, that stings. Man.

0:46:45.800 --> 0:46:49.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So that's something we can all work on. And

0:46:50.520 --> 0:46:54.120
<v Speaker 2>I love your willingness to be open about that and

0:46:54.160 --> 0:46:56.719
<v Speaker 2>to talk about it on an emotional level, because it

0:46:56.760 --> 0:46:59.799
<v Speaker 2>is it's personal. It is personal. It is emotional, and

0:46:59.840 --> 0:47:03.520
<v Speaker 2>it does matter, and little things matter and words that

0:47:03.560 --> 0:47:07.120
<v Speaker 2>you choose matter, and we just all need to be

0:47:07.160 --> 0:47:10.600
<v Speaker 2>honest with ourselves and be more intentional and more respectful.

0:47:10.880 --> 0:47:12.920
<v Speaker 1>We're scared to but I give you credit. I mean,

0:47:12.960 --> 0:47:16.960
<v Speaker 1>behind the scenes is one thing, but it's only possible

0:47:17.080 --> 0:47:21.280
<v Speaker 1>if you have a safe place to be honest about

0:47:21.320 --> 0:47:23.839
<v Speaker 1>how you're feeling. And how you're feeling sometimes or how

0:47:23.880 --> 0:47:27.960
<v Speaker 1>you view things might might get you a little scrutiny,

0:47:28.080 --> 0:47:30.160
<v Speaker 1>but you have to be willing to be open and honest,

0:47:30.160 --> 0:47:31.800
<v Speaker 1>and that's the only way we're going to solve a problem.

0:47:31.840 --> 0:47:34.520
<v Speaker 1>So thank you. I was a little worried that you

0:47:34.960 --> 0:47:37.640
<v Speaker 1>I mean, I don't want anybody to look at you

0:47:37.680 --> 0:47:41.000
<v Speaker 1>and your reaction to it as something that's that should

0:47:41.000 --> 0:47:45.760
<v Speaker 1>also be criticized, scrutinized, or it's okay.

0:47:45.600 --> 0:47:50.080
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's okay. Yeah, it's okay to admit what you

0:47:50.120 --> 0:47:52.480
<v Speaker 2>don't know, and it's okay too, And I think that's

0:47:52.480 --> 0:47:56.239
<v Speaker 2>actually where you start to learn to admit what you

0:47:56.280 --> 0:47:56.600
<v Speaker 2>don't know.

0:47:57.080 --> 0:47:59.480
<v Speaker 1>Well, well you've learned a lot, baby, I have so

0:47:59.560 --> 0:48:04.720
<v Speaker 1>much you don't. I'm sorry, I'm kidding, obviously, I'm kidding,

0:48:05.520 --> 0:48:07.720
<v Speaker 1>but yeah, we should do more around the kitchen table.

0:48:07.880 --> 0:48:10.200
<v Speaker 2>I like it, Yeah I do, and I hope you

0:48:10.280 --> 0:48:12.400
<v Speaker 2>all did too. Thank you, Thank you for listening, and

0:48:12.440 --> 0:48:15.600
<v Speaker 2>I hope that I hope that we all learned something

0:48:15.960 --> 0:48:17.200
<v Speaker 2>and we can all do better.

0:48:17.640 --> 0:48:21.360
<v Speaker 1>Alright, So, folks, you know to can always follow Robes

0:48:21.400 --> 0:48:23.520
<v Speaker 1>and I. We have our personal Instagram accounts, but the

0:48:23.560 --> 0:48:28.759
<v Speaker 1>show also on Instagram at Amy and TJ Podcast. Thank you,

0:48:28.880 --> 0:48:31.520
<v Speaker 1>as always for listening. We'll talk to y'all soon.