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Speaker 1: An attempted compliment results in complaints, which turns into controversy,

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Speaker 1: and it involves to the most visible and accomplished women

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Speaker 1: in the United States today. Hey, folks, welcome to this

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Speaker 1: latest episode of Amy and TJ Robes. We're recording this

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Speaker 1: one not from the studio per usual, but we're sitting

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Speaker 1: around the kitchen table right now. Which one do you

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Speaker 1: prefer where you most comfortable in the studio or sitting here?

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Speaker 2: Well, I'm comfortable right now here. But typically when we

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Speaker 2: do podcasts, I do like to go to the studio

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Speaker 2: because that's just broadcast home for me. I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I like to have I like to go somewhere, sit down,

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Speaker 2: have people listening, have reaction all of that, because I

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Speaker 2: think we're used to being in the studio.

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Speaker 1: Are there some topics that you think you're more comfortable

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Speaker 1: discussing in our private because we've set around this actual

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Speaker 1: kitchen table before. It has some pretty tough discussions. Do

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Speaker 1: you ever feel like the type of discussion or the

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Speaker 1: tone is more appropriate when we're able to be this intimate.

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Speaker 1: There's nobody else in the house with us right now,

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Speaker 1: just us.

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Speaker 2: Except for Brodie the dog, but he even left I

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Speaker 2: think we bored him. Wow, he left the room and

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Speaker 2: we didn't even know. Yes, I hear what you're saying.

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Speaker 2: So when we have some more intimate conversations, and we've

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Speaker 2: had a couple of podcasts where we've done from home

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Speaker 2: and they've felt good here just because it's been about

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Speaker 2: something that was either personal, deeply personal, or just I

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Speaker 2: don't know, heavy, Yeah, heavi.

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Speaker 1: Are we making the right call today? Folks? Are we

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Speaker 1: have deciding? We'll tell you the story here in a

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Speaker 1: second of exactly how we ended up at the kitchen

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Speaker 1: table instead of in the studio. But the topic, I

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Speaker 1: think most folks robes are maybe up on it because

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Speaker 1: it's been in the headlines for almost the past certainly

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Speaker 1: the past several days as we're recording. But can you

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Speaker 1: get folks caught up if they're not on what was

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Speaker 1: a daytime interview that the headlines that came out of

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Speaker 1: it were not necessarily what either person involved in the

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Speaker 1: interview wanted.

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Speaker 2: That's right, Drew Barrymore interviewing Vice President Kamala Harris. It

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Speaker 2: took place last Monday, or at least it aired last

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Speaker 2: Monday and Monday, April twenty ninth. I believe is when

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Speaker 2: the interview actually took place. And you know, Drew Barrymore,

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Speaker 2: if you've ever watched the show, has a very unique

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Speaker 2: style to her interviewing. She gets she likes to be

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Speaker 2: up close and personal. She doesn't sit. I mean, she's

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Speaker 2: not a broadcaster, she's not a journalist. She's an actress

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Speaker 2: and she's a talk show host and she has her

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Speaker 2: own unique style and that's how she rolls, and it's

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Speaker 2: it's been very much who she is. And I've interviewed

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Speaker 2: her a couple of times and she wasn't any different

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Speaker 2: in that sense when she was interviewing Kamala Harris. She's

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Speaker 2: almost immediately intimate with the person she's interviewing, which is

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Speaker 2: off putting a lot to some I think maybe when

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Speaker 2: they watch it, but that is who Drew Barrymore is.

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Speaker 1: But she said, for folks that don't know, I don't

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Speaker 1: watch the show, immediately intimate. I didn't understand what that

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Speaker 1: meant because I'm just I'm very obviously familiar with through

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Speaker 1: Barra Moore's and that she has a show, but I

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Speaker 1: still and seeing clips over the years, didn't get that

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Speaker 1: she essentially almost will sit close enough to certainly hold hands,

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Speaker 1: but you could almost your face to face in a way.

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Speaker 1: And how she goes about it, it's her things.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and she does hold hands a lot of times.

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Speaker 2: She's touchy feely and she leans in. And if you're

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Speaker 2: watching it at home, and okay, someone like me, I

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Speaker 2: like personal space. And if anyone out there is the same,

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Speaker 2: if you were to have a conversation with her or

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Speaker 2: she she likes to be up in your personal space.

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Speaker 2: It's just who she is. And so she didn't make

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Speaker 2: any distinction when she was interviewing the Vice President of

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Speaker 2: the United States, which for any of us who have

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Speaker 2: interviewed people in certain positions, you're even more respectful in

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Speaker 2: a way. Just you're almost respecting the position in a

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Speaker 2: way and the person. And so there's a distance and

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Speaker 2: there's a formality that you usually see in those types

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Speaker 2: of interviews that Drew Barrymore just kept doing her thing

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Speaker 2: her way, and.

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Speaker 1: So to a certain degree, I wouldn't want to knock

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Speaker 1: her for that. No, it might not have been my call,

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Speaker 1: my choice how I went about it, but my style.

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Speaker 1: Even the fact that she's sitting with her on a couch.

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Speaker 1: Most people don't interview world leaders on a couch first

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Speaker 1: of all. But there's some part of me gives Drew

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Speaker 1: Berhmer a credit for sticking to who she is and

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Speaker 1: not deviating from that. Even if it's the vice president.

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Speaker 1: Some argue she should have deviated.

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Speaker 2: Correct And so it was just I don't think I've

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Speaker 2: ever seen an interview even if you had the volume

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Speaker 2: down and you weren't listening to what was being said.

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Speaker 2: Just by watching it, it would seem odd when you're

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Speaker 2: talking about interviewing a world leader. But to your point,

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Speaker 2: and what I'm saying, that is the way Drew barry

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Speaker 2: Moore is. She was sitting cross legged on the couch,

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Speaker 2: leaning into talking to the vice president. But yes, it

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Speaker 2: wasn't just the body language. More importantly, what made headlines

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Speaker 2: was what came out of the interview and the focus

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Speaker 2: of the interview, and specifically something that Drew Barrymore said,

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Speaker 2: And I actually have a quote because as they were

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Speaker 2: talking about her role as vice president and the state

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Speaker 2: of the world, Drew Barrymore said, and I'll quote her here,

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Speaker 2: I keep thinking in my head that we all need

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Speaker 2: a mom. I've been thinking that we all need a

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Speaker 2: tremendous hug right in the world, right now, but in

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Speaker 2: our country, we need you to be Mamla of the country.

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Speaker 2: And this all comes after Kamala Harris told Drew Barrymore

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Speaker 2: and she said this plenty of times that her step

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Speaker 2: children or her bonus children as she calls them, call

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Speaker 2: her Mama La. Of course she's taking her name Kamala

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Speaker 2: and mixing it with mom, but that's a personal name.

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Speaker 2: So when she says this and tells the Vice President

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Speaker 2: of the United States that we need her to be

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Speaker 2: Mamla of the country, you can immediately see Kamala's reaction.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So if you haven't seen the interview yet and

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Speaker 1: you heard what Ropes just said, this is where we're

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Speaker 1: gonna pick it up. And this is why we are

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Speaker 1: sitting around a kitchen table right now and not in

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Speaker 1: the studio, because we will give you some insight into

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Speaker 1: what took place with us. We were recording another episode

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Speaker 1: several days ago and talking about various topics, and our

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Speaker 1: producer in the room at the time Emma turned her

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Speaker 1: while we were in the middle. We were in the

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Speaker 1: middle of recording. She had her laptop up and she

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Speaker 1: turned it to us and showed us an op ed

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Speaker 1: from Charles Blow Charles Mblow from The New York Times,

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Speaker 1: and we only saw the title of the article, which

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Speaker 1: was Kamala Harris is not America's Mamla, She's the vice president.

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Speaker 1: So that's all we saw. And they were trying to

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Speaker 1: signal to us, hey, is this something you all want

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Speaker 1: to talk about. We weren't up on it enough at

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Speaker 1: the time because we didn't read through the article. We

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Speaker 1: just saw the headline. We weren't up on it and

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Speaker 1: decided we just kind a gesture to her, No, we're

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Speaker 1: not gonna touch it right now. Thank god we didn't.

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Speaker 2: There was so much more to as they say, unpack.

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Speaker 1: Yes, So we didn't touch it at the time. So

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Speaker 1: Robes and I then we go home. We decide to

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Speaker 1: do a little experiment. We didn't read the opbed, we

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Speaker 1: didn't google, we didn't read articles. Instead, what we decided

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Speaker 1: to do was watch the interview ourselves, Robes watching it

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Speaker 1: on her own. I watched it on my own. Then

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Speaker 1: we came together and decided and we're gonna talk about it.

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Speaker 1: So your react this interview that's people are calling cringe

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Speaker 1: worthy and controversial and people taking issue with Before we

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Speaker 1: read a single article, what was your reaction. Remind people here.

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Speaker 1: We've talked about it since, but initially your reaction to

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Speaker 1: the interview was.

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Speaker 2: What she stayed true to who she was. But so

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Speaker 2: I wanted that to be clear that I wasn't faulting

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Speaker 2: her in any way for her interview style, because she's

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Speaker 2: a TV host with her own personality and brings her

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Speaker 2: own way of doing things to the show, and that's

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Speaker 2: her business and it's her show, it's the Drew Barrymore Show.

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Speaker 2: But I just said it was really hard to watch,

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Speaker 2: incredibly uncomfortable to watch, not just because of how close

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Speaker 2: she was talking to her, but the fact that she

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Speaker 2: never once talked about any of the accolades and any

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Speaker 2: of the hard work and any of the really impressive

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Speaker 2: things that Kamala Harris has done throughout her career to

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Speaker 2: become vice President of the United States, what she's done

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Speaker 2: in office, and what she hopes to do if she

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Speaker 2: and Joe Biden are reelected. I mean, that is what

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Speaker 2: you would kind of expect for her to be able

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Speaker 2: to talk about what she's done, what she wants to do,

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Speaker 2: and you can talk about it in an uplifting female

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Speaker 2: way where you're talking about this is the first female

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Speaker 2: vice president of the United States, so many places you

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Speaker 2: could go, so to immediately talk about step children, bonus children,

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Speaker 2: being a mom, how she laughs, It just it just

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Speaker 2: felt really uncomfortable to me, just because there were so

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Speaker 2: many other more important things she could be talking to

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Speaker 2: her about as a powerful, intelligent, accomplished woman. So that

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Speaker 2: was my cringe. That was the cringiness for me. I

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Speaker 2: felt uncomfortable with the whole just mom centered vibe. It

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Speaker 2: just felt forced and it felt like a an uncomfortable

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Speaker 2: narrative that could have been a part of the interview,

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Speaker 2: but shouldn't have been the focus of the interview.

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Speaker 1: So that's where I will well, I will ask you

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Speaker 1: before we get into my reaction to the interview, I

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Speaker 1: will ask Kamla Harris has press, press conference. She's around

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Speaker 1: a press core, right. They follow her around to which

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Speaker 1: she's often asked questions or shouted questions. Maybe she answers

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Speaker 1: them or not, but she's always in some environment around press,

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Speaker 1: if you will, that allows her to answer or to

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Speaker 1: be asked at least some of those questions you speak of.

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Speaker 1: Why not go to a talk show where the audience's women,

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Speaker 1: to where it's daytime to where you got Drew Barrymore

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Speaker 1: and not a journalist but an entertainer across Why is

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Speaker 1: it still in that environment? Is it or should it

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Speaker 1: be okay to stay in that particular lane that she's

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Speaker 1: not allowed usually in her day to day to speak on. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's that much.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, and I say, I totally think that

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Speaker 2: that can be a part of the questions, a part

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Speaker 2: of the conversation. It just was odd to me that

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Speaker 2: it was the sole focus. And clearly to your point,

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Speaker 2: the White House knows what it's doing. They had Kamala

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Speaker 2: Harris go to Drew Barrymore's show, where they know, of

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Speaker 2: course they've watched her show, her interviewing style. They knew

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Speaker 2: she was only going to be answering softer questions where

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Speaker 2: she was able to show her warmth, and that's something

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Speaker 2: of course they wanted to do in an election year.

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Speaker 2: It makes a lot of sense. We understand how these

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Speaker 2: things work, and there's nothing accidental about her ending up

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Speaker 2: on that show. It was very deliberate on the part

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Speaker 2: of the White House and the Vice President's folks and staff.

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Speaker 2: They knew what they were doing and they knew the

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Speaker 2: kind of interview they wanted to that point. They had

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Speaker 2: pictures of her with her husband and her step children

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Speaker 2: cued up, so they knew what the conversation was going

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Speaker 2: to be. It just seemed incredibly odd and cringey that

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Speaker 2: she was just asking her to be a mom of

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Speaker 2: the country. It all felt inappropriate, to be honest, it

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Speaker 2: felt it went too far in a direction that I

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Speaker 2: think most people weren't prepared to hear.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So I watched the interview separate from you, and

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Speaker 1: my reaction or the first thing out of my mouth

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Speaker 1: about it had nothing to do with anything speak of,

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Speaker 1: because all of that was it was. It was a

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Speaker 1: sidebar to what jumped out in me as the most

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Speaker 1: glaring issue that many people ultimately did have with it,

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Speaker 1: and that is, of course her calling her Mama La.

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Speaker 1: Of course her stepkids call her Mamla. Shouldn't that be

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Speaker 1: a fun moment, acute moment. But in going farther further

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Speaker 1: and saying that we need you to be our protector,

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Speaker 1: we need you to give us a hug, we need

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Speaker 1: you to be the mom for the whole country, that

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Speaker 1: I got incredible, Like I had a visceral reaction to

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Speaker 1: hearing that immediately, because I recognize something as a black person,

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Speaker 1: as a black man that you didn't immediately recognize, which

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Speaker 1: is that she was putting Kamala Harris, a black woman

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Speaker 1: into a category of service, putting it through a category

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Speaker 1: of being in service to others and a category of

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Speaker 1: being a servant, and in a way that so many

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Speaker 1: black women historically in this country have been stereotyped and

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Speaker 1: put into a hole in an expectation that now we

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Speaker 1: have the most powerful Black woman in the world being

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Speaker 1: reduced to mammy. And it was amazing, and I wish

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Speaker 1: more conversations we talk about this. It's impossible almost for

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Speaker 1: these to happen publicly, but in private to where you

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Speaker 1: and I got to have this full and wonderful discussion

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Speaker 1: about something that just stands out or is different between

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Speaker 1: us because of our different experiences. And that's okay. And

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Speaker 1: Drew Barrymore didn't get it. I believe in the moment

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Speaker 1: what she was saying, Obviously she didn't mean any harm,

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Speaker 1: and I think she was trying to pay a compliment.

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Speaker 1: But for so many in the country, and so many

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Speaker 1: black folks obviously imediately see that even the best and

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Speaker 1: brightest of us, and the woman sitting as the vice

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Speaker 1: president has now been reduced. It didn't help the optics

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Speaker 1: that it was a white woman sitting on that couch

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Speaker 1: with her has been reduced to nothing more than a servant,

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Speaker 1: a maid, a mammy, or what we have stereotypically seen

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Speaker 1: black women being portrayed as. And that stings to high

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Speaker 1: heaven for a lot of black folks.

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Speaker 2: And the moment you said that to me, we had

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Speaker 2: this discussion a few days ago, and just hearing you

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Speaker 2: say it again, because we've been talking about this for

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Speaker 2: several days now, I genuinely got chills once again from

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Speaker 2: head to toe because my mind when I first watched

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Speaker 2: it never went there, My reaction never went there. But

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Speaker 2: the moment you said it, a light bulb went off

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Speaker 2: and I thought, oh my god, I never e even

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Speaker 2: thought about it that way. But now that you say that,

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Speaker 2: it makes perfect sense. And this is something this example,

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Speaker 2: I feel like is something us white folks can look

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Speaker 2: at and think, this is exactly a moment where frame

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Speaker 2: of reference, my frame of reference was even as a

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Speaker 2: woman like that's I'm more than that. I'm not just

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Speaker 2: a mom, I'm not just a caregiver. I'm not just

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Speaker 2: somebody who needs to help other people feel better about

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Speaker 2: their pain. That's what we do as moms oftentimes. But

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Speaker 2: I wasn't thinking about it obviously from a black person's

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Speaker 2: or specifically a black woman's perspective. But the moment you

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Speaker 2: said it rang true. That is what we have portrayed

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Speaker 2: and treat so many Black women as in movies, in

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Speaker 2: television shows. You know, everywhere you look, you start seeing

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Speaker 2: the examples and then you can understand that reaction. But

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Speaker 2: it also is fascinating to me that I didn't have

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Speaker 2: that initially, nor did. We watched a lot of the commentary.

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Speaker 2: We've seen a lot of the reaction to the initial interview,

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Speaker 2: and you can kind of break it down. I mean,

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Speaker 2: everyone I think called it cringe worthy for the most part,

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Speaker 2: but you could break down why people thought it was

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Speaker 2: cringeworthy along racial lines, and that is fascinating to me.

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Speaker 2: It opens up a conversation, but hopefully it also can

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Speaker 2: open up a bridge so that we can understand, oh, oh,

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Speaker 2: I'm seeing it from a different perspective now, and damn wow.

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Speaker 2: We all need to check why we're thinking things how

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Speaker 2: we think, even if we intend them as compliments, which

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Speaker 2: I actually agree with you I think Drew Barrymore thought

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Speaker 2: she was giving her a compliment, and it was It

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Speaker 2: was quite the opposite, and.

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Speaker 1: It was coming from a and we get. But in

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Speaker 1: a moment like that, you have to ask, why is

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Speaker 1: it you might applaud that moment? Why isn't Why is

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Speaker 1: it that you might have said the same thing? And

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Speaker 1: that's why it's difficult to have these conversations in public.

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Speaker 1: You and I have one. Oh my god, I wish

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Speaker 1: people could see how we have our conversations in private.

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Speaker 1: But what is it about anyone who sees that moment

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Speaker 1: and would applaud it. What is it about that moment

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Speaker 1: with Drew Barrymore who thinks she's saying it never registered

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Speaker 1: to her what she was saying because and you know this,

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Speaker 1: I listened to you describe what your issues were with

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Speaker 1: the interview, and I was just waiting, like, she's going

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Speaker 1: to get to it. She's going to get to it.

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Speaker 1: And that part of it, which was the only thing

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Speaker 1: I actually reacted to, Wow, didn't even cross your mind.

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Speaker 1: It was just fascinating and I and I would encourage

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Speaker 1: anybody to have the conversation. If you have it with yourself, fine,

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Speaker 1: but have it with somebody in safety. But we try

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Speaker 1: to have these conversations publicly, they don't work because it

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Speaker 1: doesn't work in one hundred and forty or two hundred

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Speaker 1: and eighty characters, or we just we will all this

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Speaker 1: clap back we discussed before we even came on here,

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Speaker 1: like what word can I use to describe what's happening

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Speaker 1: because we're like, well, I don't want to use backlash,

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Speaker 1: don't because all these little catch words are being used

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Speaker 1: now to describe what this is. And what this is

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Speaker 1: is just a moment that we can all learn from.

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Speaker 1: It's infuriating for black folks. For one, I have to

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Speaker 1: endure the moment, and then two I have to explain

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Speaker 1: to you how to do better at that. That second

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Speaker 1: part is very difficult.

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Speaker 2: No, and I and I get it, and we we

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Speaker 2: You and I can talk about it, and it's a

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Speaker 2: safe space. There's there's obvious trust and love there between us.

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Speaker 2: So it's amazing to have these conversations and I totally

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Speaker 2: get the you know, it's like a double whammy to

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Speaker 2: then have to explain why that's offensive. But the truth

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Speaker 2: is this is really about, you know, the lens through

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Speaker 2: which we all see things, and we all immediately see

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Speaker 2: things through the lens of our own personal experiences, and

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Speaker 2: obviously I have no idea what it's like to be

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Speaker 2: black in America, and you're I am getting a much

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Speaker 2: clearer view of it. And I'll never know, obviously, but

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Speaker 2: seeing you and walking beside you and hearing you and

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Speaker 2: loving you and knowing things in a way that I

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Speaker 2: wouldn't have known even a few years ago when we

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Speaker 2: were just friends and open about lots of things. But

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Speaker 2: this is so much different now, and I just it's

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Speaker 2: a moment where we can all just take a step back,

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Speaker 2: because the reaction is to be defensive and to say, well,

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Speaker 2: you know, I don't think. I don't think about black

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Speaker 2: women that way. That's not how I view black women.

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Speaker 2: That's not what I think. But the truth is it's

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Speaker 2: in our heads. If it didn't register to me that

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Speaker 2: that was offensive, then I'm not being honest about how

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Speaker 2: black women are often portrayed, almost singularly portrayed, and how

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Speaker 2: we're all comfortable with that and it's not fair. And

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Speaker 2: so I'm so comfortable with that notion that it didn't

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Speaker 2: seem offensive to me, which is something I need to

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Speaker 2: examine and something we all need to examine as white

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Speaker 2: people because we don't understand what it's like to be

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Speaker 2: relegated to that in so many ways, and then to

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Speaker 2: think that that's just an okay thing to be. And

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Speaker 2: I learned a lot watching this clip, and I loved

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Speaker 2: how you did that. You didn't say anything to me,

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Speaker 2: You just said what did you think? And I restated

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Speaker 2: it all here at the beginning of the podcast, and

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Speaker 2: then to hear your reaction was it was mind blowing.

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Speaker 1: And again, Kamala Harry, this is bad. I mean, I

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Speaker 1: think in a lot of ways there's some effort out

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Speaker 1: there to humanize her, but a part of that, a

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Speaker 1: problem with that is that you also need to make

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Speaker 1: sure this woman is seen as capable and strong and

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Speaker 1: a potential president. And so this woman was the attorney

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Speaker 1: general the most populous state in the country, she was

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Speaker 1: a senator from the most populous state in the country.

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Speaker 1: She's the vice president and you and it just just

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Speaker 1: hug us and be our mammy. It's how it comes.

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Speaker 1: I'm not pleased. We have to be clear here. We

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Speaker 1: are not beating down on Drew barrymore for the moment

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Speaker 1: and how could you. But the moment is one that

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Speaker 1: is worth making note of and taking note of. And

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Speaker 1: we didn't want rov you and I didn't want to

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Speaker 1: just hop on and do a quick podcast. We wanted

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Speaker 1: to be deliberate and want the things to calm down

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Speaker 1: a little bit, and we wouldn't want to add to

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Speaker 1: the fire. But it is a teachable moment. It is

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Speaker 1: a moment to take note to see why. And my

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Speaker 1: first thought was Hattie McDaniel. One of my first was

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Speaker 1: Hattie McDaniel, first black person to win an oscar. She

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Speaker 1: won for Gone with Wind, She won for playing a slave.

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Speaker 1: Her name literally was Mammy in the movie. Her name

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Speaker 1: was Mammy, and it was her job to be in

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Speaker 1: service to this white family, to do it loyally with

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Speaker 1: no recognition. That is exactly the position that now so

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Speaker 1: many black women are being put in in this country

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Speaker 1: all the time of we gotta go solve the problem,

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Speaker 1: we have to go come in and be the saviors,

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Speaker 1: and we never get any recognition. It's another burden. And

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Speaker 1: to think that the vice president, the black woman, has

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Speaker 1: been reduced to that in that moment, No matter what

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Speaker 1: do you think about, Drew Barrymore was just tough and

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Speaker 1: even if you mean no harm, you can still do

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Speaker 1: some harm, and so the only way we reduce that

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Speaker 1: harm a little bit is by having just a loving

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Speaker 1: conversation about what we all just saw and how we

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Speaker 1: felt about it. And that's something you and I can

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Speaker 1: do privately. I don't know if it's happening publicly.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. And I saw someone wrote recently about just the

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Speaker 2: only maybe other strong female leader in this country that

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Speaker 2: we could point to maybe would be Hillary Clinton. I mean,

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Speaker 2: you could name some other names, but the most notable

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Speaker 2: one perhaps, And someone suggested, would anyone have asked Hillary

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Speaker 2: Clinton to be the mom of this country?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? No, I'm had to say that to me. I

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Speaker 1: don't know, because of her style and how she goes

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Speaker 1: about I don't know, but I doubt it. To you,

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Speaker 1: you're making the point.

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Speaker 2: Right, I mean, just just in case you're thinking, well,

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Speaker 2: come on, it's just something you might say to any woman.

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Speaker 2: I don't know that that's true. And I think just

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Speaker 2: to actually really think about it and sit with it

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Speaker 2: and think about what our ideas and thoughts are about

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Speaker 2: the role black women play in this country, in our lives,

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Speaker 2: in this world, and just it's worth being honest with

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Speaker 2: yourself about what our feelings are and what we've seen

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Speaker 2: and how black women have been portrayed and so it all,

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Speaker 2: you know, it all comes into play here when you

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Speaker 2: see what happened in that studio on Monday. And again

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Speaker 2: I agree, I don't think there was any ill intent,

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Speaker 2: but it is something to examine and to ask yourself.

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Speaker 1: And I go to the Oscars and it's such an

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Speaker 1: obvious case. But Hattie McDaniels, of course famously played the slave.

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Speaker 1: But you go through and look at I mean, Monique

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Speaker 1: won an Oscar for playing a welfare mother. Harry Barry

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Speaker 1: Barry be right, even with Pie Goldberg played some con

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Speaker 1: artists a charlatan by Ola Davis. Ela Davis and Octavia

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Speaker 1: Spencer both got nominations Oaktavia won it both as maids.

433
00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:15,119
Speaker 1: There's a history of this that why is it that

434
00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:19,600
Speaker 1: we are so comfortable needing black women to be in

435
00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:24,160
Speaker 1: certain roles to make us comfortable? If you're this, you're

436
00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:26,880
Speaker 1: the vice president, but I need you to be this

437
00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:30,520
Speaker 1: other thing that makes me more comfortable, and you in

438
00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:34,600
Speaker 1: service of me is how it is immediately interpreted by us.

439
00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:37,640
Speaker 1: And that's that's that's a tough one. Again, no matter

440
00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:42,000
Speaker 1: what Drew Barrymore might have thought in the moment you

441
00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:47,000
Speaker 1: made this is a very good example of how you've

442
00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:50,280
Speaker 1: watched things, or you have insight into the black community

443
00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:52,560
Speaker 1: and black folks and black men, and just being by

444
00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:57,679
Speaker 1: my side the way you have. But you know, this

445
00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:00,440
Speaker 1: drives me crazy. Is one of the most frustrated moments

446
00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:03,000
Speaker 1: I probably ever had at ABC News. But you were

447
00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:10,320
Speaker 1: there by my side during the Oscars twenty twenty two. Right, Yes, Yeah,

448
00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:14,560
Speaker 1: the slap herd around the world. We were in a

449
00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:17,119
Speaker 1: I can't remember the name of the hotel. It was

450
00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:18,560
Speaker 1: a watch party for the Oscar. We're out there the

451
00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:19,159
Speaker 1: cover of the Oscars.

452
00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:21,320
Speaker 2: Yes, we had just gotten off the red carpet.

453
00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:24,119
Speaker 1: Yes, And we go to this Oscar's watch party in

454
00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:27,240
Speaker 1: the lobby of the hotel where we all were big

455
00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:31,560
Speaker 1: screens up. The slap happens, right, Will Smith, Max, Chris Rock.

456
00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:33,800
Speaker 1: We couldn't try everybody's and shot it? Did that just happen?

457
00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:34,520
Speaker 3: Was that real?

458
00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:38,159
Speaker 1: Once we figured I was real, I was on the

459
00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:40,840
Speaker 1: phone within thirty seconds. You were right next to me.

460
00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:45,120
Speaker 1: I was, And who I called was one of my boys, Rodney,

461
00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:48,600
Speaker 1: who has been worked with Chris Rock for decades and

462
00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:50,280
Speaker 1: has been a part of some of his biggest specials

463
00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:51,960
Speaker 1: and helping him write them. But he's been a friend

464
00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:54,080
Speaker 1: for a long time. Trust his brother more than anything.

465
00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:59,359
Speaker 1: I call him immediately and he doesn't even say hello,

466
00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:03,240
Speaker 1: He just says, yeah, it was real. First thing is yeah,

467
00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:07,600
Speaker 1: it was real. But you saw a conversation take place

468
00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:13,639
Speaker 1: between two black men, like I'm literally within sixty seconds

469
00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:18,639
Speaker 1: of that slap happening. That showed that we as black

470
00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:22,200
Speaker 1: people were viewing that moment differently from you and how

471
00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:23,760
Speaker 1: you saw it and didn't even think about it in

472
00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:28,760
Speaker 1: the moment, because we saw it and immediately thought this

473
00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:33,600
Speaker 1: is bad for us, for black folks, because we got

474
00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:37,840
Speaker 1: a black producer, we got black folks nominated, we got

475
00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:40,520
Speaker 1: d Nice as the DJ at the This was the

476
00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:45,480
Speaker 1: Black Oscars and we know that to see two black

477
00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:49,040
Speaker 1: men who are on our mount rushmore essentially of entertainers

478
00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:52,520
Speaker 1: in my generation, Will Smith and Chris Rock. Can you

479
00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:56,120
Speaker 1: imagine seeing them roll around on the Oscar stage fighting

480
00:26:56,240 --> 00:27:00,359
Speaker 1: two black men. Chris Rock saved that Oscars by not

481
00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:04,080
Speaker 1: retaliating because we know this was the Black Oscars, and

482
00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:06,520
Speaker 1: white folks can now look and go see told you

483
00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:08,360
Speaker 1: see what happened when you put them in charge, see

484
00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:14,640
Speaker 1: what happens. See that was my immediate reaction that you saw,

485
00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:17,040
Speaker 1: And it never would have dawned on you that that

486
00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:17,680
Speaker 1: was happening.

487
00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:23,680
Speaker 2: You weren't just watching entertainment. You were personally devastated watching

488
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:28,359
Speaker 2: it happen. And I would say just I think moments earlier,

489
00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:31,160
Speaker 2: we had an amazing red carpet interview with Will Packer.

490
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:35,679
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, and you could see the excitement, the opportunity,

491
00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:40,240
Speaker 2: the opportunity to show the world what black people can do.

492
00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:47,000
Speaker 2: I saw the unbelievable disappointment and almost embarrassment, like you

493
00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:50,960
Speaker 2: were almost personally taking it on. And I saw that

494
00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:52,720
Speaker 2: and it was different.

495
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:55,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, so we then have to go the next morning

496
00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:57,919
Speaker 1: you saw something else. So we're getting ready to go on.

497
00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:01,960
Speaker 1: It was four am on the West coast, right the

498
00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:05,120
Speaker 1: show's live GMA at seven am on the East coast,

499
00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:07,520
Speaker 1: So we're up at four in front of a camera

500
00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:08,280
Speaker 1: up at four.

501
00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:09,680
Speaker 2: We didn't even go to bed. That I mean, we

502
00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:12,960
Speaker 2: were watching the whole thing and then the talk afterwards.

503
00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:15,400
Speaker 2: I mean, we never went to bed. We just went

504
00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:18,400
Speaker 2: straight onto the set of Good Morning America.

505
00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:22,000
Speaker 1: But starting the show before the show. There was another

506
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:25,600
Speaker 1: another ABC talent there and we're talking. It's thirty folks

507
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:28,760
Speaker 1: staying around between camera guys and harror and makeup and

508
00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:31,600
Speaker 1: tech folks and everybody's around, and we're standing in front

509
00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:35,200
Speaker 1: of the camera ready to go, several of us, and

510
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:38,960
Speaker 1: we started talking about that moment, and this white counterpart

511
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:45,280
Speaker 1: of mine said that they didn't see it that way

512
00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:48,600
Speaker 1: as we started talking about it and said, well, no,

513
00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:50,280
Speaker 1: I watched it too, and I was you know, I

514
00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:52,400
Speaker 1: was hurt, I was offend. I was just couldn't believe

515
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:54,320
Speaker 1: and I said, no, no, but what I'm saying is

516
00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:57,160
Speaker 1: as black folks, we were watching and this means something

517
00:28:57,200 --> 00:29:00,320
Speaker 1: different to us, and da da DA shut me down.

518
00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:05,040
Speaker 1: This person did and said, no, TJ, you're making it

519
00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:08,080
Speaker 1: something it's not and you're looking at it the wrong way.

520
00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:11,240
Speaker 1: You were standing right next to yes.

521
00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:16,520
Speaker 2: This person said, we all felt it the same. You

522
00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:20,160
Speaker 2: didn't feel it any differently than me, and was actually

523
00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:25,840
Speaker 2: offended that you had or were claiming to have a

524
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:29,440
Speaker 2: different reaction than this person. And I can tell you

525
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:32,040
Speaker 2: watching it, and by the way, I want to actually say,

526
00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:38,120
Speaker 2: you were tasked with starting this conversation because of what

527
00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:41,080
Speaker 2: you just mentioned you were asked to talk about what

528
00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:43,640
Speaker 2: it was like for you to watch, what it was

529
00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:47,120
Speaker 2: like for you to experience, and so you were because

530
00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:49,840
Speaker 2: you don't script anything out, you were talking it through

531
00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:52,600
Speaker 2: before we went on the air, and that's when this

532
00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:57,960
Speaker 2: person told you that you couldn't have shouldn't have seen

533
00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:01,680
Speaker 2: things any differently than everyone else in the room. And

534
00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:04,280
Speaker 2: I knew what was about to happen. Ha.

535
00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:08,040
Speaker 1: Look, I had to and I had to keep it

536
00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:11,600
Speaker 1: cool at the time, But that was such a stark

537
00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:15,960
Speaker 1: illustration of it's okay for us to see things differently,

538
00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:19,360
Speaker 1: but we as black folks get really offended when we're

539
00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:23,240
Speaker 1: told by our white counterparts that we are not justified

540
00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:27,200
Speaker 1: in our unique experience in this country. And so if

541
00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:30,200
Speaker 1: anyone is looking at the Drew Barrymore Kamala Harris interview

542
00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:33,560
Speaker 1: and said, nah, you're making something that is not We're

543
00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:37,400
Speaker 1: having different experiences, and that's okay, that's actually okay. But

544
00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:42,280
Speaker 1: anytime we're denied the right, and in that moment at GMA,

545
00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:46,239
Speaker 1: on this out in the field, being told that you

546
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:49,760
Speaker 1: are not justified, you do not have a unique experience,

547
00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:53,120
Speaker 1: you do not have the right to your own black experience,

548
00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:57,840
Speaker 1: giving you a perspective on the same thing we're watching.

549
00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:01,680
Speaker 1: I was told flat out, no, you are wrong for

550
00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:04,080
Speaker 1: how you're feeling by a white person.

551
00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:07,160
Speaker 2: You were completely invalidated, and that has to be an

552
00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:11,720
Speaker 2: incredibly frustrating thing. And I think for me to watch it,

553
00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:17,480
Speaker 2: I'm telling you my jaw dropped because to tell someone

554
00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:22,360
Speaker 2: that their experience isn't valid or real, or their feelings

555
00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:27,200
Speaker 2: don't count or the fact, or to even consider that

556
00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:31,040
Speaker 2: you could have a different perspective based on how you

557
00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:33,600
Speaker 2: have come up in the world. That is when it

558
00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:37,440
Speaker 2: really turns ugly and sad to me, because can we

559
00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:41,480
Speaker 2: all acknowledge that we see things differently? And more importantly,

560
00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:46,000
Speaker 2: we can learn from each other's perspectives and each other's experiences,

561
00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:48,440
Speaker 2: but you can't invalidate them, because then there's no place

562
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:51,920
Speaker 2: to start from. You have to at least give someone

563
00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:56,880
Speaker 2: the credit and the understanding that they have a different

564
00:31:56,920 --> 00:32:01,000
Speaker 2: experience and it's not wrong and it's not fake. It's

565
00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:03,800
Speaker 2: just not your experience. So, yeah, that was an amazing thing.

566
00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:05,560
Speaker 2: And I remember you looked around the room and I

567
00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:07,600
Speaker 2: don't know how many people it was a big production.

568
00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:11,920
Speaker 2: Would you say there were I don't know twenty thirty people.

569
00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:13,000
Speaker 1: Oh for sure, at least thirty.

570
00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:17,120
Speaker 2: There was only one other. There was a black man

571
00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:22,920
Speaker 2: right camera, and you said hello, and you shout it

572
00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:25,720
Speaker 2: out to him, You said, can you help me out here?

573
00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:28,000
Speaker 2: Like you know, we saw things differently.

574
00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:30,920
Speaker 1: The point there is that so many times black folks,

575
00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:33,719
Speaker 1: and certainly when you get into certain environments in corporate

576
00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:36,400
Speaker 1: America where you're sitting and I'm in an environment to

577
00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:38,480
Speaker 1: where there are thirty people in a room, they're twenty

578
00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:42,200
Speaker 1: eight white. Two black guys have a particular perspective about something.

579
00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:45,200
Speaker 1: So the twenty eight white folks agree on their perspective.

580
00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:47,920
Speaker 1: So you two are the minority perspective, So you must

581
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:50,840
Speaker 1: be wrong. There's no way twenty eight of us are

582
00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:53,800
Speaker 1: seeing it the wrong way, So you two must be wrong.

583
00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:57,680
Speaker 1: That happens so often. It happened. It was you know

584
00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:02,240
Speaker 1: this my frustration oftentimes in this world to where I

585
00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:05,480
Speaker 1: go in this world, in this media landscape, to where

586
00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:07,640
Speaker 1: you go to your morning meetings, your afternoon meetings, and

587
00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:09,920
Speaker 1: you're the only black person in the room and you're

588
00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:12,160
Speaker 1: trying to convince a whole room of folks that you

589
00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:15,840
Speaker 1: are correct when they don't get it. Because they don't

590
00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:18,680
Speaker 1: live your experience. It was the saying the GMA staff meetings,

591
00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:20,760
Speaker 1: thirty people in the room. If I didn't go, there

592
00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:22,720
Speaker 1: was really that might not be a black man in

593
00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:25,880
Speaker 1: the room at all. And I had to for years

594
00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:29,760
Speaker 1: hear people when they're pitching a story having to do

595
00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:34,600
Speaker 1: with a potential black interviewee. They would add, he speaks

596
00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:38,120
Speaker 1: so well, he's really well spoken. Yeah, this business owner

597
00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:41,920
Speaker 1: out in San Francisco. Yeah, yeah, but it's okay. He's

598
00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:46,200
Speaker 1: well spoken, but it's okay. He's a good talker. That

599
00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:51,000
Speaker 1: it happens so often. And then I finally spoke up

600
00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:53,480
Speaker 1: one day about it, and you know, the first thing

601
00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:56,960
Speaker 1: out of somebody's mouth after I stopped talking, Yeah, women

602
00:33:57,000 --> 00:33:58,480
Speaker 1: deal with this kind of thing all the time. It

603
00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:03,000
Speaker 1: immediately undercut, took away everything I said, and they went

604
00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:06,440
Speaker 1: back to their own thing. And now I didn't expect this,

605
00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:09,400
Speaker 1: and you didn't. We talked about this podcast on I

606
00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:11,640
Speaker 1: didn't expect to be vending or talking about it this way.

607
00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:16,120
Speaker 1: But I find the Drew Barrymore Kamala Harris situation a valuable, valuable,

608
00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:20,480
Speaker 1: valuable teaching moment if we will embrace it. And the

609
00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:23,839
Speaker 1: only way you can embrace it is by acknowledging. What

610
00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:27,160
Speaker 1: you Robock acknowledge is that you know what I looked

611
00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:29,920
Speaker 1: at it and that moment didn't even register to me.

612
00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:32,920
Speaker 1: So let me listen to somebody else who this did impact.

613
00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:35,560
Speaker 1: That doesn't happen enough, and it doesn't happen publicly.

614
00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:45,960
Speaker 3: I would argue, Yeah, it's time to hear her side

615
00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:46,600
Speaker 3: of the story.

616
00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:49,440
Speaker 2: I love the show so much. I was like, please

617
00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:50,520
Speaker 2: throw my name in the mix.

618
00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:51,799
Speaker 3: I need to be in on this.

619
00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:54,200
Speaker 4: We were sure she was going to be the next

620
00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:57,440
Speaker 4: bachelorette and then something changed.

621
00:34:57,760 --> 00:34:59,640
Speaker 2: I'm giving things very very hush hush.

622
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:02,960
Speaker 4: Fans of The Bachelor know exactly what we're talking about.

623
00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:07,279
Speaker 4: Joe and Serena sit down for an intimate conversation with.

624
00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:09,959
Speaker 2: Maria Georgis on Bachelor Happy Hour.

625
00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:13,560
Speaker 4: I have to ask, I heard a rumor that you

626
00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:17,240
Speaker 4: were dating at one point one of Drake's best friends.

627
00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:19,120
Speaker 3: Oh, we have more Sami.

628
00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:24,040
Speaker 4: Listen to Bachelor Happy Hour on America's number one podcast network, iHeart,

629
00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:27,279
Speaker 4: open your free iHeart app and search Bachelor Happy Hour.

630
00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:30,480
Speaker 4: Listen now everywhere you listen to podcasts, and don't miss

631
00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:32,200
Speaker 4: part two Monday Night.

632
00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:42,600
Speaker 2: To your point, the last story you just told about,

633
00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:45,880
Speaker 2: you know, immediately referring or relating it back to what

634
00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:48,880
Speaker 2: women go through. I do think in this case, and

635
00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:52,319
Speaker 2: in so many of the cases, there is this absolute

636
00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:56,520
Speaker 2: desire to connect to your pain or to connect to

637
00:35:56,640 --> 00:36:02,120
Speaker 2: your story, but in doing so completely invalidates your point

638
00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:04,239
Speaker 2: where you just bring it back to what you know

639
00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:06,759
Speaker 2: or what you've gone through or what you've experienced. And

640
00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:09,759
Speaker 2: I know that is a human tendency, but it's incredibly

641
00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:15,480
Speaker 2: offensive and you're not actually listening. You're not actually saying, wow,

642
00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:18,360
Speaker 2: I didn't realize that. Tell me more. And I always

643
00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:20,440
Speaker 2: feel like if you can just follow up with a

644
00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:23,279
Speaker 2: question about what that person's asking, I've learned the hard way.

645
00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:26,000
Speaker 2: Instead of just relating it back to yourself or what

646
00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:27,520
Speaker 2: you could say, oh, well, I know what that feels

647
00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:30,560
Speaker 2: like too. Actually, guess what, most of the time we

648
00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:32,680
Speaker 2: don't know what it feels like. So maybe how about

649
00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:35,239
Speaker 2: follow up with a question, follow up with deeper understanding.

650
00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:38,640
Speaker 2: It's just an opportunity the next time your brain might

651
00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:40,960
Speaker 2: go to relating it back to yourself or relating it

652
00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:44,200
Speaker 2: back to something you have, maybe in the most genuine

653
00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:46,000
Speaker 2: of ways, to try and connect to people and to

654
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:50,320
Speaker 2: be a part of something instead acknowledge that you probably

655
00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:53,400
Speaker 2: don't know anything about what this person's been through or

656
00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:56,680
Speaker 2: has gone through, and ask some questions to learn instead

657
00:36:56,719 --> 00:36:59,120
Speaker 2: of trying to bring it back to yourself or trying

658
00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:02,600
Speaker 2: to say too. And so I just feel like that

659
00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:05,839
Speaker 2: is something that we can learn from and something that

660
00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:10,600
Speaker 2: we've talked about. And I've had to actually retrain my brain.

661
00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:13,239
Speaker 2: I think it's a it's a human thing. Maybe it's

662
00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:15,680
Speaker 2: a privileged thing. I don't know, but I know that

663
00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:20,480
Speaker 2: I have had to reevaluate where my brain goes first,

664
00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:25,280
Speaker 2: and to really try to ask a question next instead

665
00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:27,640
Speaker 2: of just saying, well, here's what I think or here's

666
00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:30,360
Speaker 2: what I believe. And I think that could go a

667
00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:33,040
Speaker 2: long way in these types of conversations and viewing things,

668
00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:40,000
Speaker 2: and and also just readily acknowledging and admitting that my

669
00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:43,360
Speaker 2: brain didn't go there. I didn't think about it that way,

670
00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:47,040
Speaker 2: and that's okay. But I can learn why didn't it

671
00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:50,440
Speaker 2: and then understand why it didn't, and that goes a

672
00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:54,160
Speaker 2: long way into actually truly connecting to someone's experience.

673
00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:57,400
Speaker 1: Most of those have to possibly happen in private. I

674
00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:00,640
Speaker 1: encourage folks to have those private conversations, right, we were

675
00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:03,440
Speaker 1: not having it on a grander scale or on a

676
00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:07,040
Speaker 1: TV somewhere and these larger But you and I have

677
00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:11,800
Speaker 1: gotten so far in our conversations because they're private, because

678
00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:13,920
Speaker 1: we respect each other, because we love each other. We

679
00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:16,280
Speaker 1: know where our hearts and heads are, and it's okay

680
00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:19,320
Speaker 1: to make a mistake in private, and what you're saying,

681
00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:21,600
Speaker 1: you need to have that in safety. So my first

682
00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:25,080
Speaker 1: thought when I saw and I told you that I

683
00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:28,880
Speaker 1: wanted to When I heard it, I was so like

684
00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:31,479
Speaker 1: I said, I had a visceral reaction when she said

685
00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:34,960
Speaker 1: this to Kamala Harris, and I was so bothered. But

686
00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:38,920
Speaker 1: then it took a matter of seconds and I wanted

687
00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:41,040
Speaker 1: to take Drew Barrymore to lunch and just talk to

688
00:38:41,080 --> 00:38:43,920
Speaker 1: her in a safe place, not to educate her, but

689
00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:48,960
Speaker 1: she needs a safe place. And the biggest issue. We're

690
00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:53,399
Speaker 1: not sitting here criticizing Drew Barrymore at all, but if

691
00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:58,480
Speaker 1: there's any place we get close to criticism, our minds

692
00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:03,120
Speaker 1: are blown that no one flag this because this show

693
00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:06,880
Speaker 1: was not live, it was taped, and it was taped.

694
00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:10,839
Speaker 1: You told me this, I think yesterday. Wait, they had

695
00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:11,799
Speaker 1: how many days with this.

696
00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:16,320
Speaker 2: Well, I read that they taped this on the Wednesday before.

697
00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:19,080
Speaker 2: I know for a fact they gave clips and excerpts

698
00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:22,560
Speaker 2: to People Magazine on the Friday before, and then it

699
00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:25,480
Speaker 2: aired on Mondays. So at the very least they had

700
00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:31,279
Speaker 2: the weekend, the producers, the editors, you know, to make

701
00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:33,799
Speaker 2: sure that the best product went out. I know that

702
00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:35,840
Speaker 2: I don't know all the details of how long the

703
00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:38,640
Speaker 2: interview was, but from what I've read, Drew does long

704
00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:40,480
Speaker 2: interviews and then they cut them down and put the

705
00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:44,480
Speaker 2: best clips for the actual interview that airs, which makes

706
00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:46,680
Speaker 2: a lot of sense. We all did that in broadcasting.

707
00:39:46,719 --> 00:39:50,040
Speaker 2: That makes sense. But to think that there were I

708
00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:53,560
Speaker 2: don't know how many people in the room who had

709
00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:56,799
Speaker 2: to say in the final cut, no one flagged this,

710
00:39:57,080 --> 00:40:01,680
Speaker 2: and you pointed out in terms of I don't know

711
00:40:01,719 --> 00:40:04,719
Speaker 2: what the what the diversity is on her staff, but

712
00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:07,759
Speaker 2: it just begs the question, how did no one flag this?

713
00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:10,320
Speaker 2: How did no one see this? If you have, you know,

714
00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:13,040
Speaker 2: a bunch of me in the room, white folks, maybe yeah,

715
00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:15,520
Speaker 2: you might say, well, that's just Drew's style and that's

716
00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:19,160
Speaker 2: just what she does. But to flag the potential potential

717
00:40:20,239 --> 00:40:23,640
Speaker 2: problem that this would be for so many black folks

718
00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:28,480
Speaker 2: watching this. That's that kind of that's puzzling.

719
00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:33,120
Speaker 1: Because we know that we've been in this business television

720
00:40:33,120 --> 00:40:36,680
Speaker 1: for a long long time. There are so many especially

721
00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:39,640
Speaker 1: when a big interview, there are so many eyes on it.

722
00:40:39,719 --> 00:40:41,960
Speaker 1: But even if we don't know behind the scenes how

723
00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:44,439
Speaker 1: many got to see it, we do know this. There's

724
00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:51,920
Speaker 1: camera guys, there's stage hands, there's a stage manager, there's

725
00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:55,360
Speaker 1: an audio guy. There's a director, there's a technical director.

726
00:40:55,680 --> 00:40:58,600
Speaker 1: These folks just have to see it no matter what. Right,

727
00:40:58,640 --> 00:41:01,839
Speaker 1: So we're up to maybe six to ten people who

728
00:41:01,880 --> 00:41:05,560
Speaker 1: are not even involved in the editor editorial process, who

729
00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:08,640
Speaker 1: heard and saw this take place. Now you go to

730
00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:12,680
Speaker 1: the producers, the host, the editors sitting in the room

731
00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:18,920
Speaker 1: putting it together. It is a little baffling that nobody said, uh, guys,

732
00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:24,920
Speaker 1: this part right here. That that part is fascinating to me. Like,

733
00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:27,240
Speaker 1: no matter what you remember, I used to come around,

734
00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:30,160
Speaker 1: I wouldn't put a show on GMA or story on

735
00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:35,200
Speaker 1: GMA had to do with the LGBTQ plus community. I

736
00:41:35,239 --> 00:41:39,000
Speaker 1: would go ask DeAndre gay brother we had working there

737
00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:41,000
Speaker 1: at the time. I would go ask somebody, Hey, if

738
00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:43,000
Speaker 1: I say it this way, or can you look at

739
00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:45,120
Speaker 1: this for me? Or can you read this? I would

740
00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:45,800
Speaker 1: come to your dress.

741
00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:48,680
Speaker 2: You came into our dressing room, my dressing room all

742
00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:51,520
Speaker 2: the time asking about you know, female issues, Like what

743
00:41:51,560 --> 00:41:54,120
Speaker 2: would you say, is this okay? Would this be offensive?

744
00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:58,080
Speaker 2: I mean, that's what you do beforehand, but even after

745
00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:00,440
Speaker 2: the fact, especially when you have time and we've all

746
00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:03,080
Speaker 2: had big interviews, big heavy weighted interviews that you know

747
00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:04,520
Speaker 2: are going to get a lot of eyeballs, that you

748
00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:06,600
Speaker 2: know is going to have a lot of scrutiny. I

749
00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:08,560
Speaker 2: don't understand how no one flagged that.

750
00:42:09,160 --> 00:42:13,080
Speaker 1: I don't understand so to in that regard, I'm like, wow,

751
00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:16,360
Speaker 1: she needs like there's someone who's got to be looking

752
00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:18,560
Speaker 1: out better for her. You can argue she should have

753
00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:22,919
Speaker 1: known better. Fine, fine, fine, fine, but there's just that's

754
00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:27,279
Speaker 1: just not on her. And maybe some feel like she

755
00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:29,560
Speaker 1: didn't make a mistake at all, that there's nothing wrong

756
00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:32,520
Speaker 1: with what she said, that there it's okay, and that

757
00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:35,319
Speaker 1: people are making too much out of it. Then those

758
00:42:35,440 --> 00:42:39,319
Speaker 1: those folks, I beg you really to take a beat,

759
00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:42,640
Speaker 1: do a little reading, and try to understand a different

760
00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:46,520
Speaker 1: perspective and not just dismiss it. We can all be

761
00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:48,480
Speaker 1: looking at the exact same thing and have a different

762
00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:50,719
Speaker 1: reaction to it, as was the case with me and you.

763
00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:55,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think, what's promising about this? Or maybe

764
00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:58,000
Speaker 2: just this naive hope I might have that because there

765
00:42:58,080 --> 00:43:01,080
Speaker 2: was no mal intent, I don't, and because there was

766
00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:04,840
Speaker 2: something ugly or mean spirited that was said at all,

767
00:43:05,239 --> 00:43:08,279
Speaker 2: that actually this is a shining example of something that

768
00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:10,960
Speaker 2: we could look at and say, ah, I can see

769
00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:13,360
Speaker 2: how we can do better because no one did anything

770
00:43:13,400 --> 00:43:19,080
Speaker 2: deliberately or intentionally wrong, and yet still the messaging needs

771
00:43:19,120 --> 00:43:23,279
Speaker 2: to be addressed, needs to be acknowledged, and we need

772
00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:23,840
Speaker 2: to do better.

773
00:43:25,120 --> 00:43:30,000
Speaker 1: My last, if folks don't don't believe, I want everybody

774
00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:33,279
Speaker 1: to look up Michelle Nichols. I think I've been talking

775
00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:38,600
Speaker 1: about her for I mean, probably twenty years, but she's

776
00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:42,919
Speaker 1: somebody I thought about with this and that she played

777
00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:44,960
Speaker 1: lieutenant of her. If folks don't know she was the

778
00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:48,440
Speaker 1: original lieutenant of her was Zoe Saldana, Oh yeah, she

779
00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:50,880
Speaker 1: played lieutenant of her in the New Star Trek. But

780
00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:54,680
Speaker 1: this lady was the original old school black lady lieutenant

781
00:43:54,800 --> 00:43:58,439
Speaker 1: her own Star Trek, and she had decided to quit

782
00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:03,399
Speaker 1: the show this is the nineteen sixties. I can't remember

783
00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:05,759
Speaker 1: which year, but she decided I'm gonna quit because she

784
00:44:05,800 --> 00:44:07,440
Speaker 1: went to go to Broadway did some other thing. Broadway

785
00:44:07,520 --> 00:44:09,960
Speaker 1: was more profitable, the bigger deal, more prestigious than some

786
00:44:10,280 --> 00:44:13,040
Speaker 1: little TV show about some stuff tracks star trek Ye.

787
00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:18,279
Speaker 1: It seems crazy to think, but she just I'm gonna juggernaut, right.

788
00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:21,440
Speaker 1: She quit so she could go do Broadway. She had

789
00:44:21,520 --> 00:44:24,400
Speaker 1: a chance meeting with Martin Luther King Jr. In Detroit.

790
00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:27,879
Speaker 1: I believe it was in which he was talking about

791
00:44:28,440 --> 00:44:31,160
Speaker 1: he was a tricky. He was so excited to meet her. Say,

792
00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:34,520
Speaker 1: it's the only show that they let the King kids

793
00:44:34,560 --> 00:44:39,239
Speaker 1: stay up and watch. And she told him I'm gonna

794
00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:42,000
Speaker 1: miss it. And he said, wait, wait what she told

795
00:44:42,040 --> 00:44:45,279
Speaker 1: him she was gonna quit. He told her how she

796
00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:49,440
Speaker 1: recalls the story, you are the first black person to

797
00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:52,520
Speaker 1: be on TV that is not a maid, a slave,

798
00:44:52,840 --> 00:44:58,720
Speaker 1: a servant. It's showing us strong, intelligent, beautiful, capable black people.

799
00:44:59,640 --> 00:45:01,879
Speaker 1: You are doing just as much for us by being

800
00:45:01,960 --> 00:45:04,440
Speaker 1: on TV as we're doing out here in the streets.

801
00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:07,879
Speaker 1: You cannot quit. And she didn't quit, And the rest

802
00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:14,480
Speaker 1: is history. Doctor King understood even back then, how important

803
00:45:14,520 --> 00:45:18,359
Speaker 1: it was for black people to be seen a certain way,

804
00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:23,719
Speaker 1: and to think that this day and age, that the

805
00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:28,440
Speaker 1: vice president, a black woman, is still being reduced in

806
00:45:28,520 --> 00:45:34,680
Speaker 1: some way to nothing more than service is what I

807
00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:39,520
Speaker 1: desperately want everybody please to try to take that, to

808
00:45:39,640 --> 00:45:43,040
Speaker 1: take that in to where it's not just a matter

809
00:45:43,040 --> 00:45:46,400
Speaker 1: of somebody sitting too close on the couch or It

810
00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:50,600
Speaker 1: means so much more than just a cringey interview, and

811
00:45:50,640 --> 00:45:55,040
Speaker 1: it's a very important and valuable moment if we're willing

812
00:45:55,840 --> 00:45:58,880
Speaker 1: to be honest. Maybe not in public, but please, I

813
00:45:58,880 --> 00:46:02,279
Speaker 1: beg you to be honest private about how you really

814
00:46:02,320 --> 00:46:04,880
Speaker 1: reacted to what you saw and how you reacted to

815
00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:06,799
Speaker 1: some black people's reaction to it.

816
00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:11,279
Speaker 2: What I just don't think. I think you said it

817
00:46:11,320 --> 00:46:13,120
Speaker 2: so well. I think that's the perfect way to end,

818
00:46:13,120 --> 00:46:13,839
Speaker 2: and I think that's what.

819
00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:14,640
Speaker 1: Are you looking at me?

820
00:46:15,120 --> 00:46:16,759
Speaker 2: Well, No, I was looking at you. Actually, I was

821
00:46:16,840 --> 00:46:19,799
Speaker 2: admiring what you said, because I do. I was looking

822
00:46:19,800 --> 00:46:22,879
Speaker 2: at you with love actually, but no, and I yeah,

823
00:46:22,960 --> 00:46:25,600
Speaker 2: that was love and admiration. Did what did it look like?

824
00:46:26,600 --> 00:46:30,480
Speaker 1: It looked like I had done something wrong and.

825
00:46:30,200 --> 00:46:31,840
Speaker 2: I need to work on my facial expressions.

826
00:46:31,960 --> 00:46:34,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, look like it doesn't wrong. Oh, this wasn't It

827
00:46:34,600 --> 00:46:37,359
Speaker 1: wasn't supposed to be an emotional thing. It's just it's

828
00:46:37,400 --> 00:46:38,880
Speaker 1: one thing. If you don't get it, we're okay. If

829
00:46:38,920 --> 00:46:40,600
Speaker 1: you don't understand it, don't get it. But if you

830
00:46:40,640 --> 00:46:45,640
Speaker 1: deny us the opportunity to have our own experience, that stings. Man.

831
00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:49,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, So that's something we can all work on. And

832
00:46:50,520 --> 00:46:54,120
Speaker 2: I love your willingness to be open about that and

833
00:46:54,160 --> 00:46:56,719
Speaker 2: to talk about it on an emotional level, because it

834
00:46:56,760 --> 00:46:59,799
Speaker 2: is it's personal. It is personal. It is emotional, and

835
00:46:59,840 --> 00:47:03,520
Speaker 2: it does matter, and little things matter and words that

836
00:47:03,560 --> 00:47:07,120
Speaker 2: you choose matter, and we just all need to be

837
00:47:07,160 --> 00:47:10,600
Speaker 2: honest with ourselves and be more intentional and more respectful.

838
00:47:10,880 --> 00:47:12,920
Speaker 1: We're scared to but I give you credit. I mean,

839
00:47:12,960 --> 00:47:16,960
Speaker 1: behind the scenes is one thing, but it's only possible

840
00:47:17,080 --> 00:47:21,280
Speaker 1: if you have a safe place to be honest about

841
00:47:21,320 --> 00:47:23,839
Speaker 1: how you're feeling. And how you're feeling sometimes or how

842
00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:27,960
Speaker 1: you view things might might get you a little scrutiny,

843
00:47:28,080 --> 00:47:30,160
Speaker 1: but you have to be willing to be open and honest,

844
00:47:30,160 --> 00:47:31,800
Speaker 1: and that's the only way we're going to solve a problem.

845
00:47:31,840 --> 00:47:34,520
Speaker 1: So thank you. I was a little worried that you

846
00:47:34,960 --> 00:47:37,640
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't want anybody to look at you

847
00:47:37,680 --> 00:47:41,000
Speaker 1: and your reaction to it as something that's that should

848
00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:45,760
Speaker 1: also be criticized, scrutinized, or it's okay.

849
00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:50,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's okay. Yeah, it's okay to admit what you

850
00:47:50,120 --> 00:47:52,480
Speaker 2: don't know, and it's okay too, And I think that's

851
00:47:52,480 --> 00:47:56,239
Speaker 2: actually where you start to learn to admit what you

852
00:47:56,280 --> 00:47:56,600
Speaker 2: don't know.

853
00:47:57,080 --> 00:47:59,480
Speaker 1: Well, well you've learned a lot, baby, I have so

854
00:47:59,560 --> 00:48:04,720
Speaker 1: much you don't. I'm sorry, I'm kidding, obviously, I'm kidding,

855
00:48:05,520 --> 00:48:07,720
Speaker 1: but yeah, we should do more around the kitchen table.

856
00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:10,200
Speaker 2: I like it, Yeah I do, and I hope you

857
00:48:10,280 --> 00:48:12,400
Speaker 2: all did too. Thank you, Thank you for listening, and

858
00:48:12,440 --> 00:48:15,600
Speaker 2: I hope that I hope that we all learned something

859
00:48:15,960 --> 00:48:17,200
Speaker 2: and we can all do better.

860
00:48:17,640 --> 00:48:21,360
Speaker 1: Alright, So, folks, you know to can always follow Robes

861
00:48:21,400 --> 00:48:23,520
Speaker 1: and I. We have our personal Instagram accounts, but the

862
00:48:23,560 --> 00:48:28,759
Speaker 1: show also on Instagram at Amy and TJ Podcast. Thank you,

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Speaker 1: as always for listening. We'll talk to y'all soon.