Speaker 1: Hi.
Speaker 2: Hello. This is Chelsea Handler Joy, Chelsea Joy, Chelsea Joy Handler.
Speaker 3: Hello, this is Catherine Elizabeth Lah. How are you.
Speaker 2: Oh, I'm good. I'm just sitting here in my bedroom
Speaker 2: with my big black lover, Doug, and he is so cute.
Speaker 4: Now.
Speaker 2: I came home. I was gone for two weeks. I
Speaker 2: went to my worka and I came home and he
Speaker 2: has this new thing where he just jumps on you
Speaker 2: and then puts your hand in his mouth with a
Speaker 2: light and he's not really biting, but he's trying to
Speaker 2: drag you. And I'm like, you better cut that fucking
Speaker 2: shit out, buddy, because people are not going to respond
Speaker 2: well to they I'm doing that. People who don't like
Speaker 2: dogs are gonna be scared, right, Doug, make sure Mobell
Speaker 2: tregged him to do that.
Speaker 5: While in my absence, she's like, fol of Shenanigan's that Mabel.
Speaker 1: Of course.
Speaker 2: Of course. I was just listening to Alex Cooper's interview
Speaker 2: with Kamala Harris on My Jove in. I was so
Speaker 2: so blown away that she got that interview. I texted
Speaker 2: her right away. I was like, holy shit, So that's awesome,
Speaker 2: that's amazing. I love to see that.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I also like to see candidates being real and
Speaker 5: normal in the modern world, like doing something like a podcast.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, exactly. I like when they just act like
Speaker 2: normal people, Like you don't have to always be spouting Paul,
Speaker 2: like you're a human being. I want to see the
Speaker 2: human humanity in everyone you know and be like, Okay,
Speaker 2: but anyway, I've been spending a lot of time in
Speaker 2: my hyperbaric chamber because I'm a home for two weeks
Speaker 2: and I figure I might as well regenerate and rejuvenate.
Speaker 2: Or somebody told me the other day that my skin
Speaker 2: looked incredible, and I was like, you know what, thanks
Speaker 2: for that hot tip. I'm going to keep going. I'm like,
Speaker 2: it must be the hyperbaric chamber.
Speaker 5: So I was like sleeping like a vampire in your tube,
Speaker 5: among all the other things that I do to myself.
Speaker 3: Are you reading anything exciting right now?
Speaker 2: I did. I just read a great book. I think
Speaker 2: I don't know that it's out yet, because my editor
Speaker 2: sent it to me. It's called Like Mother, Like Mother
Speaker 2: by Susan Rieger. I read that. I read Cutting for
Speaker 2: Stone Over the Break. That is long and laborious, and
Speaker 2: I would not recommend that unless you're into you because
Speaker 2: he's the one who wrote the Covenant of Water Abraham
Speaker 2: fa Yes, yeah, I did just reread Many Lives, Many Masters,
Speaker 2: because it's come up so many times on the podcast.
Speaker 2: I did much. I just reread that and then I
Speaker 2: gave it to my aunt because she could use a
Speaker 2: little spirituality booster. I gave that to her with her
Speaker 2: well bucher and that I dropped off at her house
Speaker 2: the other day. I said, start taking one of these
Speaker 2: a day every day. Please. She's like, you know, I'm
Speaker 2: not unhappy. I'm like, no, no, no one's saying you're unhappy.
Speaker 2: You just need a little bit of a moodlifter. I'm like,
Speaker 2: it's just so that you're a little bit more optimistic. Yes,
Speaker 2: And she's like, I am optimistic, but I'm also realistic.
Speaker 2: And I'm dying. I'm like, you're not dying, you're just old.
Speaker 2: We're all dying. That's my dad.
Speaker 5: He's like ever since he turned I mean, I don't know,
Speaker 5: probably thirty, but like literally every year he's like, I
Speaker 5: probably won't make it five more years.
Speaker 3: I'll probably die by the time i'm fifty.
Speaker 2: Why do people say things like that. I so either
Speaker 2: read or listened or someone told me that if we
Speaker 2: make it through the next ten to fifteen years, we're
Speaker 2: going to be able to live until we're one hundred
Speaker 2: and twenty. I'm like, no, thank you. First of all,
Speaker 2: I can't afford to live until I'm one hundred and twenty. Okay,
Speaker 2: I don't have that kind of money. You want to
Speaker 2: retire someday? Who the fuck wants to do that to
Speaker 2: one hundred and twenty.
Speaker 3: I mean, have you seen old people? It's hard to
Speaker 3: get around.
Speaker 2: Oh please, Well, apparently there's gonna have that. We're gonna
Speaker 2: be all these things to help us keep us young.
Speaker 2: But it's like I'm gonna spend most of my time
Speaker 2: in a fucking hyperbaric chamber. I already feel like crazy
Speaker 2: like a fox. Oh by the way, there are still
Speaker 2: tickets for Kansas City, Saint Louis, and Indianapolis that are
Speaker 2: coming up at the end of October October twenty fifth, sixth,
Speaker 2: and seventh. Anyway, we have a serious guest today. We
Speaker 2: have the professional today on the show No funny Stuff.
Speaker 2: This was a recommendation from my friend Yanica. So please
Speaker 2: welcome Nedra to wob Welcome Nedra to WAB Thank you
Speaker 2: so much for being here today.
Speaker 1: Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2: I have lots of questions for you. I follow you
Speaker 2: on Instagram. A lot of my friends also follow you
Speaker 2: on Instagram, so I'm not sure who turned who on
Speaker 2: to you. But I read your book Drama Free, and
Speaker 2: I've sent it to a lot of people anonymously, just
Speaker 2: so you know. I like to just send books to
Speaker 2: people without them knowing exactly where it came from. But
Speaker 2: there's a couple of things in your book that I
Speaker 2: want to touch on right away. First of all, your
Speaker 2: licensed therapist, so you have a lot of experience right
Speaker 2: with dealing with different people, different kind of dynamics and relationships.
Speaker 2: What I found very interesting, I had never really understood
Speaker 2: the term enmeshment before, and I was interested in you
Speaker 2: kind of delineating the difference between codependency and enmeshment because
Speaker 2: some of the examples in the book that you used
Speaker 2: for in meshment sounded to me like codependency. So I
Speaker 2: want to be better at knowing what the real differentiation is.
Speaker 1: Oh, that's a good one.
Speaker 6: When I think of codependency, I think of us trying
Speaker 6: to enable some unhealthy behavior, and a person trying to
Speaker 6: rescue them from some sort of outcome, trying to manage
Speaker 6: things in.
Speaker 1: Their lives so they will be better.
Speaker 6: When I think of, you know, this enmeshment that we
Speaker 6: have in our relationships, people can be very healthy in
Speaker 6: their own life and very enmeshed at the same time.
Speaker 6: It's that couple that doesn't have any outside friends. It's
Speaker 6: the siblings who won't let anybody else in. Nobody has
Speaker 6: a drug addiction, nobody needs saving from anything. But there
Speaker 6: is no outside influence. It's just us. And so the
Speaker 6: enmeshment is really like we have no boundaries because we
Speaker 6: have nothing else besides what's in this situation.
Speaker 2: So would you say it's like a little bit like isolation,
Speaker 2: like isolating someone.
Speaker 1: Well, it could be isolating a lot of people.
Speaker 6: I think you know you brought up Drama Free, which
Speaker 6: is about dysfunctional family relationships, and one of the things
Speaker 6: that happens in dysfunctional families is there is this immeshment around.
Speaker 6: We are the only people who can love us, right
Speaker 6: Like everybody else is an outsider, a friend, a teacher,
Speaker 6: everyone is an outsider. It's only us. And it doesn't
Speaker 6: mean that those people aren't healthy. For you, but it
Speaker 6: certainly breaks up that dynamic and can point out some
Speaker 6: of those things that are a bit dysfunctional, and so
Speaker 6: for the dysfunctional system to sort of continue, we have
Speaker 6: to be enmesh.
Speaker 2: Okay, because one of the examples you use for enmeshment,
Speaker 2: I think if I recall, it was about like getting
Speaker 2: accepted to a college that was far away from home,
Speaker 2: and your family desiring for you to go to college
Speaker 2: close to home, and you choosing to go out of state, say,
Speaker 2: and then having there'd be a consequence within your family
Speaker 2: about that, like how dare you go so far away
Speaker 2: from us? You're supposed to stay close. So that's a
Speaker 2: good example of enmeshment.
Speaker 6: Absolutely, when we are unable to get away from something,
Speaker 6: even if we're going to this healthier thing, even if
Speaker 6: our family has taken really great care of us, they
Speaker 6: don't want us to leave. It's very healthy for people
Speaker 6: around a certain age to leave the nest. And if
Speaker 6: you're not allowed to do that, that can be problematic
Speaker 6: for you. If you're not allowed to raise your children
Speaker 6: a little differently than how you were raised, if you're
Speaker 6: not allowed to have friends outside of the family, if
Speaker 6: you're not allowed to go on vacation with people who
Speaker 6: are other than family. Those things are problematic.
Speaker 2: That very much sounds to me like an instance of
Speaker 2: a man controlling a woman, say in a relationship where
Speaker 2: they isolate them, right, and they don't want them to
Speaker 2: have any friends, They don't want them to do anything
Speaker 2: unless it's been approved. That kind of abuse, that kind
Speaker 2: of situation that most typically leads to abuse control.
Speaker 6: Right, Yes, so it typically is a control tactic because
Speaker 6: the people we love, we want other people to love
Speaker 6: them as well. And if I am saying to you
Speaker 6: I am the only person who can love you, or
Speaker 6: we are the only people who can love you, I
Speaker 6: will pick the people that's not good for your sense
Speaker 6: of autonomy, like you don't get to you know, be
Speaker 6: at work. It maybe pick some people who are good
Speaker 6: for you because they've already been picked. And so if
Speaker 6: I am saying I am the barrier for entry of
Speaker 6: anyone else, yes, I'm trying to control your life in
Speaker 6: some sort of way.
Speaker 2: Okay, let's talk about counter dependency versus codependency. So would
Speaker 2: you say that counter dependency is basically the opposite of codependency.
Speaker 6: Well, yes, counter dependency is the isolation of people as supports,
Speaker 6: as confidantes, as emotional companions. People who are counter dependent,
Speaker 6: they tend to function pretty well in life. They have
Speaker 6: this very strong exterior. They have a mantra of I
Speaker 6: don't need anyone to really do it yourselfers they believe
Speaker 6: in this philosophy of being self made, and they have
Speaker 6: a high ability to feel very lonely because we need
Speaker 6: people in the world. When you are of the mindset
Speaker 6: that people have harmed you and the safest thing to
Speaker 6: do is stay away from people, it causes this isolation
Speaker 6: of I am the only one with me, so even
Speaker 6: if I can do it all, I still feel bad
Speaker 6: about having to do it all, even if I'm pushing
Speaker 6: people away. So sometimes, you know, we'll see this in
Speaker 6: dating as the person everything is going really well, it
Speaker 6: seems like it's a you know, really great relationship, and
Speaker 6: then it's supposed to maybe go to the next step,
Speaker 6: and they start to push you away because there's too
Speaker 6: much closeness, there's too much vulnerability. So you see that
Speaker 6: a lot with folks who are counterdependent, or and you
Speaker 6: may see them carrying a heavy load and they are
Speaker 6: unable to allow you to help them. Sometimes with our
Speaker 6: family members. This is the person who we don't see
Speaker 6: very often, the person who may not call us, the
Speaker 6: person who keeps to themselves, but they function pretty well
Speaker 6: in life, but they are very isolated from everyone else.
Speaker 2: And is there a way to be counterdependent? Because my
Speaker 2: sister and I were talking about this term over the
Speaker 2: weekend and we were saying how we were both we
Speaker 2: both became counterdependent because our parents were so well useless
Speaker 2: pretty much. I mean they were around, but they weren't
Speaker 2: really doing anything. And so we were like, oh, we're
Speaker 2: both but we weren't. We're both very much involved in
Speaker 2: our family. We're not isolated from our family. So how
Speaker 2: does that fit in? Like, if you're somebody who's very
Speaker 2: self sufficient, like I always feel like that. I'm like, oh,
Speaker 2: I'm all on my own. I've got to do everything
Speaker 2: on my own. But I've become quite used to that
Speaker 2: because that's how I grew up, Like I had to
Speaker 2: be self sufficient, but I'm not isolated from the rest
Speaker 2: of the family.
Speaker 1: Well, how do you invite people in?
Speaker 2: I've always have people around.
Speaker 1: But how do you invite people in emotionally?
Speaker 6: Because there's a difference between having people around and being
Speaker 6: around people and being able to show up in that
Speaker 6: space and allowing people to be there for you, allowing
Speaker 6: people to support you when you're going through something, not
Speaker 6: you always being the supporter, but really letting people in,
Speaker 6: letting them know what's going on. So you can have
Speaker 6: relationships and still not be evotionally available in those relationships.
Speaker 6: So I would wonder if a person is counterdependent, how
Speaker 6: are you being vulnerable or not?
Speaker 2: So coundre dependent would mean that you're not that you
Speaker 2: are being invulnerable or can you be counterdependent and be vulnerable?
Speaker 6: Counterdependent and vulnerable with a small few, with a small few.
Speaker 6: Sometimes I'm just gonna live into that category.
Speaker 3: I think that's true.
Speaker 6: Yeah, with a small few, because what I've seen with
Speaker 6: that is people who are vulnerable with a small few
Speaker 6: is it is very small. I mean it's not enough
Speaker 6: to even have a party with. It's really like I
Speaker 6: have two people, and if something happens to these two people,
Speaker 6: I don't have anyone else. There's no inviting in, there's
Speaker 6: no more opening up because you know, again, somewhere along
Speaker 6: the way, like you said, like you know, my parents
Speaker 6: were useless, So I grew accustomed to doing things on
Speaker 6: my own because I know I can do them. Well,
Speaker 6: I know things will be done, and I have not
Speaker 6: developed that trust for other people to do them. Now
Speaker 6: I can talk to people about my problems, but I
Speaker 6: don't really want people to get in there and resolve
Speaker 6: my problems for me. So I think there is some
Speaker 6: variation of how we're vulnerable with others as well. Sometimes
Speaker 6: with counterdependency, people are very vulnerable after the fact. They
Speaker 6: they talk about things as they have already resolved those things,
Speaker 6: and not necessarily maybe as they're going through those things.
Speaker 2: Okay, let's talk about the term. Is it alexathemia. That
Speaker 2: was a word I had to look up that I've
Speaker 2: learned in your book, So thank you. I love learning
Speaker 2: new words. So tell us what that means.
Speaker 6: Alexithymia is where we have like this emotional restriction. We're
Speaker 6: not aware of what we feel. We almost can't tap
Speaker 6: into our emotions. Sometimes this will show up in people
Speaker 6: saying things like I don't cry, or I don't get
Speaker 6: upset about stuff, or I don't get very angry. Well,
Speaker 6: emotions are very helpful for us. Now how we express
Speaker 6: those emotions it matters. You can be angry, but do
Speaker 6: we want you to be angry and get out of
Speaker 6: your car and yell at a driver. No, we don't
Speaker 6: want that, but it is okay to have some level
Speaker 6: of a feeling in your body. Ultimately, you know, people
Speaker 6: have to be able to identify what their feeling is.
Speaker 6: And with alexithymia, I think we see a lot of
Speaker 6: folks who don't even know what they feel. It's like,
Speaker 6: I don't know what I feel. I'm often confused about
Speaker 6: what my feeling is about this thing, or they're pocketing
Speaker 6: everything into you know, maybe two feelings. I'm angry or
Speaker 6: I'm sad. Well, let's talk about this whole wheel of
Speaker 6: other things.
Speaker 1: You might feel.
Speaker 6: You might feel disappointed, you might feel confused, you might
Speaker 6: feel lonely. So being able to communicate your feelings, especially,
Speaker 6: you know, going back to counterdependency, a lot of counterdependent
Speaker 6: folks really struggle with being able to identify what they're feeling,
Speaker 6: and so it can be challenging in your relationships with
Speaker 6: people if you can't even show feeling and then be
Speaker 6: able to recognize those feelings and other people and respond
Speaker 6: to it because you don't have them. You're like, I
Speaker 6: don't even understand why they're upset about this thing because
Speaker 6: that wouldn't upset me. Well, we have to be able
Speaker 6: to show up for people in relationships. We have to
Speaker 6: be able to acknowledge what we're feeling. And you know,
Speaker 6: as a therapist, we use things like feelings charts and
Speaker 6: you know, mood trackers to kind of help you distinguish
Speaker 6: between a happy moment, of exciting moment, a sad moment,
Speaker 6: of this moment of that moment, because most people will
Speaker 6: give you like two things, but once you break it down,
Speaker 6: it can be hopeful to know that, actually I was
Speaker 6: enraged when I did that. That was a step beyond anger.
Speaker 6: When I responded in that way, I was actually very hurt.
Speaker 6: I wasn't angry. Those can be very hopeful tools for
Speaker 6: you to be able to communicate with others and certainly
Speaker 6: to manage your behaviors.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you talk about that a little bit with a
Speaker 2: couple that like, this woman was just frustrated with her
Speaker 2: husband and not he wasn't able.
Speaker 1: She was.
Speaker 2: She was ready to leave him, and he wanted to
Speaker 2: maintain the relationship and stay in the marriage. Yet he
Speaker 2: didn't know how to He didn't know how to communicate
Speaker 2: or what the problem was because he had grown up
Speaker 2: with a family of you know, parents who were divorced
Speaker 2: or had an unhealthy dynamic, and so he didn't know
Speaker 2: how to express his emotions. And when someone is that stuck,
Speaker 2: and you talk about this also like having patients that
Speaker 2: aren't ready to make changes, you know, sometimes there's like
Speaker 2: a phase of there are several phases of going to
Speaker 2: therapy where you're curious enough to think that there is
Speaker 2: a problem. Then you go and you start talking to somebody.
Speaker 2: But I know from experience, my own therapy experience, that
Speaker 2: it is there's a phases to when you're willing to
Speaker 2: accept and learn more about yourself and actually gain self
Speaker 2: awareness about your behavior. But when someone is so stuck
Speaker 2: and is emotionally unavailable and emotionally almost uneducated, right, they
Speaker 2: have an inability to express themselves, where do you begin?
Speaker 2: How do you salvage a marriage if somebody is that
Speaker 2: far removed from their own emotions.
Speaker 6: Well, if that person is in therapy, I think a
Speaker 6: therapist would point out their feelings for them. There have
Speaker 6: been times where I say, you know, you sound very
Speaker 6: sad about your partner wanting to leave the relationship without
Speaker 6: that person being able to identify, Oh my gosh, I'm sad.
Speaker 6: I'm like, is this accurate or am I far off right?
Speaker 6: And then we'll talk about what that feeling looks like.
Speaker 6: But if that person is not in therapy, I think
Speaker 6: sometimes when we're in relationships with people, it can be
Speaker 6: really challenging to push them to the point of change
Speaker 6: because people have to want that, and there are you know,
Speaker 6: there are people who grow an age who you know,
Speaker 6: never change because it's it's so uncomfortable. It can be
Speaker 6: so uncomfortable to move away from this idea that I
Speaker 6: have to manage everything or I have to keep things
Speaker 6: really private to I'm going to be an open book
Speaker 6: with someone. For some people, they would rather that marriage
Speaker 6: in than to risk being vulnerable in that relationship, because
Speaker 6: that's way scarier. I have had some clients where it
Speaker 6: has taken you know, maybe years maybe for them to
Speaker 6: get to this point of being able to quickly recognize
Speaker 6: what they feel and act on it. Particularly in marriages.
Speaker 6: You know, a lot of marriages. You know, we kind
Speaker 6: of talk about infidelity, We talk about, you know, how
Speaker 6: you communicate when people have kids. That's a really troubling
Speaker 6: spot as well.
Speaker 2: I want to talk about this section of your Brook.
Speaker 2: I took a screen grab because I found this it
Speaker 2: resonated for a lot of situations that I've seen before
Speaker 2: signs of emotionally immature parents. So there's a list of
Speaker 2: One of the first thing says you feel lonely when
Speaker 2: you're with them, which is so sad. The relationship is
Speaker 2: one sided. They dismiss or minimize your emotions. They demand compliance,
Speaker 2: and they don't respect boundaries. Also, they make their problems
Speaker 2: seem more significant than yours, and they are unable to
Speaker 2: hold space for your feelings or problems. So it sounds
Speaker 2: that sounds also very narcissistic. Is there a correlation between
Speaker 2: being like an immature parent because all of these things
Speaker 2: are also signs they think of narcissism.
Speaker 6: No, they could be, but I think a narcissis is
Speaker 6: a little more strategic. I think an emotionally unavailable parent
Speaker 6: is maybe a little more aloof because there can be
Speaker 6: love there, like the parent can love.
Speaker 1: You, but just not have those tools to really show
Speaker 1: up in a way.
Speaker 6: Even if you tell them like the application of these things,
Speaker 6: they can't quite grasp it. So I would say what
Speaker 6: a narcissist is a little more strategic. They really don't
Speaker 6: have a desire to change. They are certainly manipulating a
Speaker 6: situation with an emotionally immature parent. There just may be
Speaker 6: a lack of understanding. Certainly they don't have a grasp
Speaker 6: on their mental health. And I think that if a
Speaker 6: narcissist or emotionally available person was a client, the emotionally
Speaker 6: unavailable parent would likely be able to change and the
Speaker 6: narcissist would not.
Speaker 2: Right, because it is that's typical, right. I remember asking
Speaker 2: my therapist if I was a narcissist, and he said,
Speaker 2: typically narcissists aren't asking for feedback.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 6: I think sometimes we confuse narcissism with like being highly
Speaker 6: concerned or putting your needs in the forefront, Like that's
Speaker 6: not necessarily narcissistic. I think there is some strategy to
Speaker 6: a narcissist that maybe we don't understand about that dynamic
Speaker 6: where someone is strategically trying to manipulate you or make
Speaker 6: you believe something is happening that's not happening.
Speaker 1: With a parent.
Speaker 6: I think what's happening is that parent probably still needs
Speaker 6: a lot of parenting themselves, so being able to show
Speaker 6: up for a child is just out of their wheelhouse.
Speaker 6: Because they're really still looking for the same things that
Speaker 6: you're looking for, which is a lot of nurturing. Kids
Speaker 6: lead a lot they need people to tune into their world,
Speaker 6: and some parents they just don't have those skills and
Speaker 6: they don't really know how to develop them because they're
Speaker 6: still trying to get it from you or to give
Speaker 6: it to themselves.
Speaker 2: And what advice would you give to children like that
Speaker 2: that are dealing with an emotionally immature parent. How do
Speaker 2: you guide that?
Speaker 6: Well, you can have a relationship with an emotionally immature parent,
Speaker 6: the relationship is not going to be ideal because you
Speaker 6: cannot change that parent. So you know, for instance, if
Speaker 6: you have a parent who doesn't respond to let's say
Speaker 6: your career successes and you're like, mom, I got a
Speaker 6: new show, or mom, I got this thing going on,
Speaker 6: and they're like, oh, okay, you may want to not
Speaker 6: share with your parent until you feel secure in the
Speaker 6: way that they might respond. You may want to share
Speaker 6: with people who can really have a warm level of
Speaker 6: excitement and then tell your parent as a formality. But
Speaker 6: going to that person who has shown that they can't support,
Speaker 6: you know, looking for that support, that's going to hurt
Speaker 6: you every time. So the strategy for being in relationships
Speaker 6: with emotionally unavailable people is really to manage how you
Speaker 6: interact with them, your expectations around what they are actually
Speaker 6: capable of. With parents, we often give them expectations that
Speaker 6: they can never achieve because you know, everybody is not
Speaker 6: prepared to parent. What is the stat like seventy percent
Speaker 6: of people have unplanned pregnancies, So you know, people are
Speaker 6: not necessarily equipped to deal with everything that you know
Speaker 6: happens with a child, even when that child is an adult.
Speaker 1: Because you'll have.
Speaker 6: A lot of adults who say, well, maybe I could
Speaker 6: understand that they didn't get it when I was a kid,
Speaker 6: but now I'm thirty, I'm forty, and they still don't
Speaker 6: get it. And it's like, why do you think that
Speaker 6: the aging process means maturing emotionally? It doesn't necessarily mean that.
Speaker 6: And you're talking about them maturing during a high stress scenario.
Speaker 6: They were raising you and working and doing all these things.
Speaker 6: That's not the time to mature. So you know this
Speaker 6: idea that our parents should be able to get it
Speaker 6: at some point, it's like, well, what work have they done?
Speaker 6: What work are they doing? Are they listening to this podcast.
Speaker 6: Are they going to seminars? Are they in therapy? Like,
Speaker 6: what are they doing? If they're not doing anything, expectation
Speaker 6: of them changing is pretty small. And if you're into
Speaker 6: this sort of self improvement work and mental health projects
Speaker 6: and all of this sort of stuff, if you're into that,
Speaker 6: then that's great for you. But it's certainly not something
Speaker 6: that is likely to rub off on a person who
Speaker 6: is uninterested, and certainly a person who doesn't seem to
Speaker 6: have a problem with themselves.
Speaker 2: Okay, that's very interesting. Not everybody is mature and just
Speaker 2: because they are getting older, right, that's an important nugget
Speaker 2: of information to remember when you're dealing with a sixty
Speaker 2: year old moron. Remember that, everybody. Okay, we're gonna take
Speaker 2: a quick break and we'll be right back to take
Speaker 2: some callers.
Speaker 1: We're back, We are back.
Speaker 2: Okay, we're back with that. You're chob Yeah.
Speaker 3: So I wanted to ask about enmeshment.
Speaker 5: And we get a lot of calls and emails from
Speaker 5: people who are having difficulty with their family, either because
Speaker 5: they have chosen to leave the religion that they grew
Speaker 5: up in, that they were raised in, or that they
Speaker 5: come out of the closet and their families have a
Speaker 5: poor reaction to that.
Speaker 3: So I wonder is that a consequence of enmeshment Leaving.
Speaker 6: A religion can be, particularly if you're unwilling to support
Speaker 6: your child and discovering the new belief, or if you
Speaker 6: are unwilling to even accept your child if they have
Speaker 6: a new belief.
Speaker 1: Particularly one that they're not joining a cult.
Speaker 6: You know, you have this sometimes like within Christian sex
Speaker 6: right like oh my gosh, you've went from Catholic to
Speaker 6: this other thing, or you went from this to that,
Speaker 6: and you know, people can have a lot of conversation
Speaker 6: around that, meaning that everyone in this family needs to
Speaker 6: be Presbyterian. Everyone in this family needs to be you know,
Speaker 6: this particular thing, and if you are not that we
Speaker 6: cannot accept it. So that is an example of enmeshment.
Speaker 6: I would say that if you have a child or
Speaker 6: some one in the family who is LGBTQ, typically that
Speaker 6: is a value challenge in families that we do not
Speaker 6: believe or we do not support this thing. Is not
Speaker 6: necessarily we all have to be this one thing. I
Speaker 6: think that is a little deeper, and it goes to
Speaker 6: you know, if you are not this thing you end
Speaker 6: up here, so it you know, I think that's a
Speaker 6: really big thing in families, and I do talk about
Speaker 6: that a bit and drama free as to what I've
Speaker 6: seen sort of backfire for families. I live in the
Speaker 6: South and so I do encounter a lot of folks
Speaker 6: who are, you know, perhaps Christian, and you know, their
Speaker 6: family does not believe in, you know, them having a
Speaker 6: certain type of lifestyle, and it is a rough road.
Speaker 6: And my suggestions there is always too one be yourself
Speaker 6: and two also recognize it. In those situations, you are
Speaker 6: redefining their idea of who they thought you were, and
Speaker 6: they have to be able to process that. Sometimes they
Speaker 6: process it with you, which is terrible because who wants
Speaker 6: to hear it. And sometimes they find, you know, a
Speaker 6: therapist or someone else to process it with. But there
Speaker 6: is this period of time where you know, in some
Speaker 6: families they do go through this like value or moral crisis,
Speaker 6: even when they love you and want to be in
Speaker 6: relationship with you. And I would say that that is
Speaker 6: you know, on the on the realm of normal to
Speaker 6: have this sort of like I thought it was this
Speaker 6: and now I'm starting to understand that you will have
Speaker 6: a different life than what I thought it was.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think that's about It's very important to
Speaker 2: remember the processing time because for someone like me, I'm
Speaker 2: very impatient. I want everything to be quick.
Speaker 1: I'm quick.
Speaker 2: I take things in quickly and I and I can
Speaker 2: spit them back out quickly and I can comprehend the situation.
Speaker 2: But a lot of people do need a duration of
Speaker 2: time to actually process whatever for new information that they've
Speaker 2: been given. So when you do get a bad reaction
Speaker 2: if you're say it is you're coming out to your
Speaker 2: family and your family isn't as receptive as you would
Speaker 2: hope they would be, there is a period of time
Speaker 2: that you have to allow people to adjust to the
Speaker 2: new information. And I think we can say, you know,
Speaker 2: I know personally, I can lose sight of that. And
Speaker 2: it's a good reminder for all of our listeners. You know,
Speaker 2: everybody processes things differently, and some people take a lot
Speaker 2: of time and some people take, you know, less time.
Speaker 2: So to be open and not looking for immediate results.
Speaker 6: Well, I think it's very similar when we restructure our
Speaker 6: boundaries in families and we change you know, Hey, I
Speaker 6: know every year I come home for Thanksgiving, but this
Speaker 6: year I'm going to do this other thing. That new
Speaker 6: information can be very problematic. Changing anything when people are
Speaker 6: used to used to it being a certain way, is
Speaker 6: you know, a problem, and there is some adjustment people
Speaker 6: have to make on their end. We have the information
Speaker 6: well before them, and so we're already adjusted and we're like,
Speaker 6: what's the problem. Like, I just told you this thing
Speaker 6: I've been thinking about for two years, why don't you
Speaker 6: love it? And it's not to be received in that
Speaker 6: way that people really do need some time to sort
Speaker 6: of figure out what they feel about it and how
Speaker 6: to show up with you.
Speaker 3: Well, should we take some questions?
Speaker 2: Yeah, let's go. I can't wait for her to drop
Speaker 2: some more wisdom, you know.
Speaker 5: Let's start with a caller. Our first caller is Lauren.
Speaker 5: She says, Dear Chelsea. Last year, my partner of fourteen
Speaker 5: years ended our relationship and moved out of our apartment.
Speaker 5: It was an adjustment to take over full rent payments.
Speaker 5: My parents offered to let me move in with them,
Speaker 5: but I was determined to stay in my home and
Speaker 5: maintain my independence. I've received my lease renewal and the
Speaker 5: rent will increase by a whopping twelve percent. I've been
Speaker 5: dipping into an inheritance left to me by my grandparents
Speaker 5: to cover any shortages. There's not much inventory in my
Speaker 5: area that's less than what I'm currently paying either, so
Speaker 5: I can't move. I've renewed my lease, but made a
Speaker 5: commitment to myself that this will be my last year
Speaker 5: in this apartment, after which i'll temporarily move in with
Speaker 5: my parents. This will allow me to pay down credit
Speaker 5: card debt I accrued while my relationship was ending and
Speaker 5: I became depressed and did some emotional overspending. I'll build
Speaker 5: my savings and eventually begin looking for a more permanent home. However,
Speaker 5: I'm afraid that moving back into my childhood bedroom at
Speaker 5: thirty eight will tip me further into a depression that
Speaker 5: I've been fighting my way out of for two years,
Speaker 5: and I'm uncertain if my self esteem can take this hit.
Speaker 5: I've felt shame in losing my relationship and struggling to
Speaker 5: afford my own home and using my grandparents' money for rent.
Speaker 5: That feeling will now be magnified by living in my
Speaker 5: childhood bedroom, and I'm scared I'll be trapped. Plus, the
Speaker 5: loss of independence is scary. How will I date as
Speaker 5: an adult from my childhood bedroom. I'm truly grateful to
Speaker 5: have the support from my family. However, I'm still finding
Speaker 5: it tough as I prepare myself for the emotional toll
Speaker 5: of leaving home and with it the chapter of my
Speaker 5: life I spent with my partner and for losing some
Speaker 5: independence in my parents' house.
Speaker 3: Thank you both. I absolutely love this podcast.
Speaker 5: Listening to your wise words of a fe to others
Speaker 5: is getting me through this tough time of my own.
Speaker 1: Lauren, Hi, Lauren, Hi, Hi.
Speaker 4: Lauren Hilsey, Hi, Catherine Hi.
Speaker 2: This is Nager Chuab. She's our special guest today. She's
Speaker 2: a licensed therapist, so you're in good hands.
Speaker 4: Hi o Hi, thanks so much.
Speaker 2: Okay, so, first off, you have a year right left?
Speaker 2: I mean to prepare for this move.
Speaker 4: Correct, Yes, I now have a year.
Speaker 2: Okay, So isn't there a possibility that within this year
Speaker 2: you can figure out a different dynamic that won't make
Speaker 2: you have all of these feelings like finding a roommate
Speaker 2: to move in with or finding a different kind of
Speaker 2: I know you said most of the apartments in your
Speaker 2: area are the same price, but I mean you have
Speaker 2: a year to kind of find another solution if moving
Speaker 2: into your parents' house represents all of these kind of
Speaker 2: misgivings you have about yourself.
Speaker 4: Yes, yes, sire, And I'm considering the roommate option as well.
Speaker 2: And possibly getting an additional job, Like what do you
Speaker 2: do for a living? Do you have time to get
Speaker 2: another job or something that you could do on the
Speaker 2: weekends for ex income.
Speaker 4: I work at an independent bookstore, and sometimes I have
Speaker 4: to work on the weekends, and that's not always easy
Speaker 4: for me to tell in advance, so it's hard to
Speaker 4: schedule a second job. But I have thought about looking
Speaker 4: into second jobs I can do from home, maybe that
Speaker 4: aren't tied to a schedule, but you know, data entry, writing,
Speaker 4: those kind of things.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that sounds a lot better. Like I
Speaker 2: would say, move into your parents if you were okay
Speaker 2: with that, but you sound like you're definitely not okay
Speaker 2: with that, And that has all of these separate meetings
Speaker 2: to you. And figuring out this situation independently before you
Speaker 2: have to move in with your parents and coming up
Speaker 2: with solutions so that you don't have to move in
Speaker 2: with your parents are going to serve you a lot
Speaker 2: better than kind of folding into a situation that you're
Speaker 2: not looking forward to Yeah.
Speaker 4: I think you're right, And part of why I decided
Speaker 4: to stay for one more year was trying to find,
Speaker 4: you know, the fortitude in myself to make changes in
Speaker 4: how I live, make changes to my budget, and see like,
Speaker 4: exactly what can I do? What can I do in
Speaker 4: a year?
Speaker 2: Yeah? What do you think, Nedra?
Speaker 6: You know, I wonder if you could reframe this from
Speaker 6: moving into my childhood home to moving in with my
Speaker 6: parents and reinventing that space talking to your parents about
Speaker 6: what living with them as an adult looks like versus
Speaker 6: living with them as you know, someone zero to eighteen.
Speaker 6: I think this is a wonderful opportunity for you to
Speaker 6: reposition yourself to be able to move out and maybe
Speaker 6: stay out for a longer period of time. But this
Speaker 6: sounds like a wonderful opportunity. I wonder if you could
Speaker 6: reframe this really as a gift to be able to
Speaker 6: have parents who have a space for you to move
Speaker 6: into where you can revisit your finances and think about
Speaker 6: how you want things to be in maybe five years
Speaker 6: or three years or whatever.
Speaker 1: The plan is.
Speaker 6: But you know, if you keep thinking of this as like,
Speaker 6: you know, little Lauren's bedroom where she had this, you know,
Speaker 6: poster on the wall, it will be a terrible experience.
Speaker 6: You are an adult, and I'm sure your apartment looks
Speaker 6: a nice, lovely way and you can recreate that. You know,
Speaker 6: look at some tiny home stuff on Penrish. You could
Speaker 6: get really creative with this space and really maximize where
Speaker 6: you are at this point. You'll have more more discretionary
Speaker 6: income to hang out with your friends, you might be
Speaker 6: able to do some of that frivolous spending that you
Speaker 6: were talking about, and you can certainly buy as many
Speaker 6: books as you like. So this is really to me,
Speaker 6: it's like, will they take more people in this house,
Speaker 6: because it's a wonderful opportunity to reposition yourself for a
Speaker 6: better situation in the future.
Speaker 5: Lauren, I'm going to tattle on you a little bit,
Speaker 5: but this is something that came out when we were
Speaker 5: having our sort of pre interview call. You know, I know,
Speaker 5: the breakup happens like eighteen months ago or so, and
Speaker 5: you're still in contact with your ex and like hanging out.
Speaker 5: I know that's been sort of difficult for.
Speaker 3: You guys and to me with that, and like having this.
Speaker 5: Extra year to sort of make a decision about moving
Speaker 5: in with your folks. It feels like maybe there's a
Speaker 5: bit of like a things are moving a little bit slowly,
Speaker 5: and I wonder, at Needra if you'd have some advice
Speaker 5: as far as like boundaries there with the ex, if
Speaker 5: it's okay to keep seeing him, if it's very painful
Speaker 5: for them, or what are good sort of next steps
Speaker 5: for Lauren.
Speaker 6: Well, I think we think about life is like this
Speaker 6: upward progression of stuff, and if we go back to
Speaker 6: some period in life, it's like a disaster. It's like
Speaker 6: go back to school, go back to my parents' house,
Speaker 6: go back to my ex. When an actuality, maybe everything
Speaker 6: is just kind of fluid and we are moving in
Speaker 6: and out of situations, and maybe this is a time
Speaker 6: with your ex where you need to evaluate how the
Speaker 6: relationship that you're establishing with your ex now is adding
Speaker 6: any value to your life or not. Is it putting
Speaker 6: you more in this space of oh my gosh, we
Speaker 6: should have been here with things, or is it like
Speaker 6: this is wonderful companionship. So you know, it's not necessarily
Speaker 6: bad to have a relationship with your ex, but what
Speaker 6: is the meaning of the relationship, How is the relationship
Speaker 6: impacting how you see yourself. Those are important things to
Speaker 6: think about as you're continuing to connect with this person.
Speaker 4: Yes, thank you. That all sounds like so many things
Speaker 4: I need to think about. I think we've had blurred
Speaker 4: lines over the nature of our relationship, him not wanting
Speaker 4: to put a label on it, and having some of
Speaker 4: his stuff still on my home. It definitely at times,
Speaker 4: I'm not really sure what we're intending. So good things
Speaker 4: to think about.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean all different and lots of different advice
Speaker 2: to think about. I mean a lot of different perspectives,
Speaker 2: or at least a couple of different perspectives. But do
Speaker 2: you feel like relation to your ex that you guys
Speaker 2: are in a do you feel like it's a healthy dynamic?
Speaker 2: What you your communication with him and your relationship with
Speaker 2: him as it stands today?
Speaker 4: You know, I'm not sure. The last time we spoke,
Speaker 4: he expressed a lot of self loathing on his part
Speaker 4: for having and died the relationship and not knowing why,
Speaker 4: and listening to him talk, I just kept thinking, you know,
Speaker 4: like he's not in good working order to start up again.
Speaker 4: You know, he needs to love himself and I want
Speaker 4: him to do that. And it's you know, at times
Speaker 4: I do feel selfish, like think, oh my gosh, he
Speaker 4: you know, he's second guessing this, or he's not sure
Speaker 4: why he did what he did. Maybe we'll go back.
Speaker 4: But I do worry that he might be returning or
Speaker 4: thinking about returning as a way to kind of boost
Speaker 4: his self esteem and not have the guilt for ending
Speaker 4: the relationship.
Speaker 6: You know, I'm less concerned about what he's doing and
Speaker 6: what you're choosing to do, Laurene. I wonder what do
Speaker 6: you want in this dynamic? I hear a lot about
Speaker 6: I think he's doing this and it's probably like this,
Speaker 6: and it's like, well, this is your life. What type
Speaker 6: of relationship do you want with a person if you're dating.
Speaker 6: I don't know if you consider this dating, But if
Speaker 6: you're dating a person, what do you.
Speaker 1: Want that dynamic to look like? And is this it?
Speaker 4: Yeah, thank you for reframing it that way. Yeah, right now,
Speaker 4: it's not it.
Speaker 6: So maybe this is just companionship for now, and whatever
Speaker 6: his desire is for the relationship, it doesn't override what
Speaker 6: your desire is for a relationship. So if you want
Speaker 6: to go to the movies with this fellow, that's fine,
Speaker 6: But what you're looking for is not what he's offering.
Speaker 6: So just being clear about that can be really helpful.
Speaker 6: It can help you draw those boundaries of I need
Speaker 6: you to get your stuff out of my apartment in
Speaker 6: thirty days, right, because you know, if I'm just if
Speaker 6: we're just companions and we're spending time together, maybe in
Speaker 6: that type of relationship, I don't allow myself to be
Speaker 6: a storage facility.
Speaker 1: Right, So you think of what that looks like.
Speaker 6: Like, Okay, so we have some sort of relationship, but
Speaker 6: what would the boundaries for this type of relationship be, right?
Speaker 4: We haven't really put boundaries on it at all, and
Speaker 4: definitely need it definitely.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it sounds like you definitely need to implement some
Speaker 2: boundaries in all of your life, you know, like to
Speaker 2: decide what you want to do, Like if you're going
Speaker 2: to go move in with your parents, commit to making
Speaker 2: that a really positive situation. And if you're not going
Speaker 2: to commit to figuring out a way to make that
Speaker 2: a really positive situation, because you're in a gray zone.
Speaker 2: So hopefully some of this stuff that we've talked about
Speaker 2: today will help you.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it is, it is so helpful. Thank you all
Speaker 4: three of you. This is this is really wonderful.
Speaker 2: Okay, well great, Well.
Speaker 3: Keep us posted on what happens with you.
Speaker 2: Okay, Lauren, pick up drama free read some There's some
Speaker 2: stuff there that will apply to you for sure.
Speaker 3: Oh we'll do all.
Speaker 5: Right, Thanks Lauren, Thank you, Lauren, thanks so much. Our
Speaker 5: next email and this is just an email, so he
Speaker 5: won't join us. But this comes for from Chris. He says,
Speaker 5: I'm a gay man in my early thirties, the youngest
Speaker 5: of three, and this involves my sister, the middle child,
Speaker 5: who's four years older. Almost ten years ago, after graduating college,
Speaker 5: I enrolled in graduate school. My older sister, after doing
Speaker 5: nothing for a few years in her twenties, enrolled two.
Speaker 5: I initially thought it would be great to have her
Speaker 5: with me during what was sure to be a stressful
Speaker 5: few years, and I quickly made a tight knit group
Speaker 5: of friends, three guys and three girls. Toward the end
Speaker 5: of grad school, my sister became increasingly close to my
Speaker 5: friend group, despite having made her own friends during our
Speaker 5: time in school. Eventually, I finished grad school and moved
Speaker 5: to a big, fun city one hour north. I was
Speaker 5: excited for a fresh start to be whoever I wanted,
Speaker 5: make gay friends and live as an outgay man for
Speaker 5: the first time in my life. Six months later, my
Speaker 5: sister moved to the same city as me. I quickly
Speaker 5: made gay friends and made up for the fun I
Speaker 5: didn't have while in grad school. Before I knew it,
Speaker 5: I had so many gay friends and was having a blast.
Speaker 5: But soon my closest friends were becoming my sister's close friends.
Speaker 5: I realized she would meet them in passing and then
Speaker 5: DM them to hang out.
Speaker 3: Now, while this might not have.
Speaker 5: Been inherently wrong, it felt suffocating to me. Soon I'd
Speaker 5: show up to gay friends' houses and she'd already be there.
Speaker 5: She'd cook dinner for my friends when I wasn't around,
Speaker 5: and she even once went on a trip with a
Speaker 5: few of my friends and I didn't find out about
Speaker 5: it until later. Shouldn't she be busy making her own
Speaker 5: friends and having her own life. I know the importance
Speaker 5: of family and how much you talk about sisterly love.
Speaker 5: I love my sister always, but I do not think that,
Speaker 5: just because we're siblings, that my sister has allowed carte
Speaker 5: blanche access to my life, especially when I've expressed wanting
Speaker 5: boundaries to have some things for myself. Am I wrong
Speaker 5: for feeling this way, Chris.
Speaker 2: I don't know it. Does that sound like enmeshment?
Speaker 1: That's right, It definitely sounds like immeshment.
Speaker 6: And I'm thinking here that Chris could do a better
Speaker 6: job of not introducing his sister to his friends. There
Speaker 6: are some things, it sounds like that need to be private,
Speaker 6: because if he's expressed that I want my friends to
Speaker 6: be my friends, please do not call them, please do not.
Speaker 6: There is something sacred that he needs to keep in
Speaker 6: place that doesn't involve her, because she's not really honoring
Speaker 6: this request to have these you know, separate relationships or
Speaker 6: you go find your own people. Doesn't sound like she's
Speaker 6: going to do that from city to city, from you know,
Speaker 6: life event to life event. She's really latching one. And
Speaker 6: so he will have to be the person to say,
Speaker 6: I will not invite you to this thing. I will
Speaker 6: not introduce you to these people, so she cannot continue
Speaker 6: to have these relationships. You know, I think it could
Speaker 6: be very hard for your friends to meet your sister,
Speaker 6: and she's a very lovely person and to say to her, hey,
Speaker 6: we can't talk anymore because i'm your brother's friend, Right,
Speaker 6: That's a really hard thing to say. But it might
Speaker 6: be something that he needs to talk about with everyone
Speaker 6: in his life that Hey, I'm in this situation with
Speaker 6: my sister. I love her dearly, but I'm really trying
Speaker 6: to help her meet her own people. She has this
Speaker 6: history of really latching on to my people. So if
Speaker 6: she DMS you, you could just let her know that
Speaker 6: we've had this conversation. Sometimes with our boundaries, we like
Speaker 6: to say things once and give people the chance to
Speaker 6: do something. And then after we say it once and
Speaker 6: we say it twice, we have to do something about it.
Speaker 6: We have to start to issue some sort of consequences.
Speaker 6: The consequence of this would be eliminating her from social things,
Speaker 6: so she no longer has that opportunity.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 6: Also, in a very loving way, you could, you know, hey,
Speaker 6: have you looked into book clubs?
Speaker 5: Hey?
Speaker 6: You know, I work with this lady who's really cool.
Speaker 6: It says like you all would be wonderful friends. Helping
Speaker 6: her meet some people could be helpful, But ultimately you
Speaker 6: will have to take things into your own hands where
Speaker 6: you say I can't even include you anymore, because I
Speaker 6: have learned the hard way over and over that you
Speaker 6: will start to absorb these things.
Speaker 1: I'm doing as your own.
Speaker 2: But this woman, the sister, sounds like she has absolutely
Speaker 2: no boundaries. I mean she's following him from city to city,
Speaker 2: is hanging out with his friends. I mean, she's not.
Speaker 1: Going to take that.
Speaker 2: Well. Obviously, we already discussed people having boundaries set that
Speaker 2: haven't had them before and their bad reaction to them.
Speaker 2: So how would you deal with someone who's going to
Speaker 2: have a hostile reaction to him trying to set a boundary,
Speaker 2: because I would disagree. I don't think it's up to
Speaker 2: him to talk to his friends about it. Like this
Speaker 2: is a her issue, you know, Like I have a
Speaker 2: lot of friends that are just nice enough to my
Speaker 2: family that they would hang out with them as a favor.
Speaker 2: So like he has to go around and basically tell
Speaker 2: all these people to stop doing it. I mean, I
Speaker 2: feel like it's a her problem, not is his friend's problem.
Speaker 1: Well, I agree with you. I think it's her problem.
Speaker 6: But I think if he has spoken to her, he
Speaker 6: may want to try something different. Speaking to the friends
Speaker 6: is just one way to to address it, and other
Speaker 6: people may not feel comfortable set in that boundary. That's
Speaker 6: why I say a lot of it will be not
Speaker 6: including his sister in on certain information or including her
Speaker 6: in these friend gatherings and social events where she has
Speaker 6: the opportunity to latch on to other people. She can't
Speaker 6: DM anyone that she doesn't know about, she can't invite
Speaker 6: people on vacation if she's never met them, and it
Speaker 6: can be known that I will not mix my friends
Speaker 6: with you anymore. And she is entitled to have whatever reaction.
Speaker 6: But it sounds like, you know, the letter writer here
Speaker 6: has a really big, important reaction as well. I meant
Speaker 6: the letter was written to say, I'm having this really
Speaker 6: big issue, so she can have whatever response she's going
Speaker 6: to have, and I think the execution of it is,
Speaker 6: I have to exclude you from certain things as a
Speaker 6: consequence of you not honoring the boundary. Because the solution
Speaker 6: is not for her to start to do these things
Speaker 6: because she hasn't done them. She has very poor boundaries.
Speaker 6: It is not really anyone's job to fix that, but
Speaker 6: it is, you know, perhaps his job to make sure
Speaker 6: that his boundary is honored.
Speaker 5: I feel like, also if you tell your friends, like
Speaker 5: if you do meet my sister, like she's a little
Speaker 5: bit clinging, she like tries to hang out with all
Speaker 5: my friends and sort of like with an eye roll,
Speaker 5: they'll they'll kind of get the gest right.
Speaker 1: They won't want to hang out with her.
Speaker 2: I think, well, yeah, I mean, but it's I feel
Speaker 2: like the issue is her. You know, she used to
Speaker 2: like cultivate her own friendships and her own relationships. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I mean, And it's hard to hear from a family member.
Speaker 2: I don't want you around all the time, you know, right,
Speaker 2: So it's like I just am thinking about like what
Speaker 2: it would feel like, you know. She thinks, probably like, oh,
Speaker 2: this is great. My brother and I have all the
Speaker 2: same friends. We're super close, we do everything together. His
Speaker 2: friends are my friends. So it's gonna be like a
Speaker 2: real loud thud when she finds out that's not the case.
Speaker 5: Yeah, but yeah, Well, let's take a quick break and
Speaker 5: we'll come back with a question to wrap up.
Speaker 2: Okay, So we'll take a break and we'll be right
Speaker 2: back to wrap up with Nedra.
Speaker 5: And we're back, and we're back, and I have one
Speaker 5: last quick caller for us. So Allison is calling in.
Speaker 5: She says, Dear Chelsea, I'm adopted. I found my birth
Speaker 5: mother more than twenty five years ago, and my birth
Speaker 5: father at the same time. Over the past twenty five
Speaker 5: plus years, I've built great relationships with my birth mother,
Speaker 5: my half sister, adopted sister, cousins, etc. I've enjoyed those
Speaker 5: relationships immensely. I met my birth father once and have
Speaker 5: no relationship with him. My question is do I approach
Speaker 5: my four half brothers on his side, his sons, who
Speaker 5: he's told me have no idea I exist, and let
Speaker 5: them know they have a half sister out here before
Speaker 5: they or I start dying. And we entirely missed the
Speaker 5: chance to meet. My adopted sister found her birth family
Speaker 5: and is loving having two new brothers. She's very encouraging
Speaker 5: of me to reach out to these people. But I'm
Speaker 5: on the fence. What do you two think? Should this
Speaker 5: family secret blow up or stay dormant?
Speaker 2: Allison, That's a tough one.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 5: The other thing that she mentioned is they all live
Speaker 5: kind of in the same area and she's worried about
Speaker 5: her kids and their kids like meeting and volume lo.
Speaker 2: Hi, Hi, Hi, Alison? How are you? Oh?
Speaker 6: Wow?
Speaker 7: Thank you, Chelsea, how are you?
Speaker 2: I'm great. This is Nedra towab our special guest today.
Speaker 2: So you've discovered some of your family members and not
Speaker 2: all of your family members CORP.
Speaker 7: I've known my birth mother and father for thirty years.
Speaker 7: I've had a relationship with my birth mother and that
Speaker 7: side of the family all this time. I have never
Speaker 7: had a relationship with my birth father, and he has
Speaker 7: four sons whom I have never met, nor do I
Speaker 7: believe they know about me.
Speaker 2: Okay, what do you think ndra about this?
Speaker 1: I have a question here, who's secret is this?
Speaker 7: It would be my birth father's secret.
Speaker 6: Okay, why do you feel the responsibility to keep someone
Speaker 6: else's secret?
Speaker 7: Is a very fair question, And I don't know. My
Speaker 7: grandmother who raised me, basically said she was very old school,
Speaker 7: and she's like, don't you ever embarrass him by coming
Speaker 7: out and you know, telling his kids about you. But
Speaker 7: my other my adopted sister, has met her family, and
Speaker 7: she's like, who cares. He's an old Like who cares?
Speaker 7: Why do you care so much? And I don't. I
Speaker 7: don't know, I shouldn't, I suppose, but I'm here to
Speaker 7: hear your feedback, so let me know.
Speaker 6: Yeah, it sounds like a lot of shame management, Like
Speaker 6: I'm I'm going to manage his shame by not allowing
Speaker 6: this thing to come out. That would make him feel
Speaker 6: some sort of way and you know, be put in
Speaker 6: position to have certain conversations and confrontations and this sort
Speaker 6: of thing. So I will try to make him feel
Speaker 6: comfortable by keeping this secret even though it's not my secret.
Speaker 7: Yep. That about sums it up.
Speaker 2: And also you can easily just reach out to them
Speaker 2: and like leave the ball in their court. You know,
Speaker 2: you're reaching out to them, you give them the information,
Speaker 2: I'm your half sister, this is what happened, and then
Speaker 2: you're covering both. I live in the same community, right,
Speaker 2: is it the same town, same community.
Speaker 7: A northern California fish.
Speaker 2: Yes, you all live in northern California.
Speaker 7: We do.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So okay, I live in this area. And it's
Speaker 2: totally up to you if you guys, because that way,
Speaker 2: you're kind of accomplishing all of the things you need
Speaker 2: to accomplish. You're not holding anyone's secret, you're not managing
Speaker 2: anyone's shame, and you're doing outreach, you know, and actually
Speaker 2: taking a step towards meeting them. And then it's in
Speaker 2: their court if they want to meet you. You know,
Speaker 2: you don't want to force that on anybody. If they're interested, great,
Speaker 2: and if they're not interested. Okay, well you tried, right.
Speaker 2: I mean, there's no harm, no foul really, and I agree.
Speaker 2: I mean, who cares about your birth father and his
Speaker 2: feelings like that? You have your own life and this
Speaker 2: is your decision.
Speaker 5: Yeah, And it sounds like you owe him very little,
Speaker 5: like he seems like maybe he was a sperm donor basically,
Speaker 5: and you know here are yeah, exactly exactly. So I
Speaker 5: don't think you owe him much.
Speaker 7: Do I give him a chance to tell them ahead
Speaker 7: by letting this other cousin know that this is my
Speaker 7: plan in like thirty days, I'm going to come out
Speaker 7: and reach out to them and give him the chance
Speaker 7: to come clean ahead of time. Or do I just
Speaker 7: lay it up and let the chips fall where they may.
Speaker 6: Well, he's had thirty years to tell them, true, that's
Speaker 6: a very long time. I don't know if he needs
Speaker 6: thirty more days understood.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like you don't really owe him anything. That's
Speaker 2: another courtesy.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I know.
Speaker 7: It's just so tied up in this whole, like, don't
Speaker 7: embarrass him, Like I don't know why he would be embarrassed.
Speaker 7: It was a mistake thirty years or fifty seven years ago.
Speaker 2: Now, Yeah, and there's not a lot of time. I
Speaker 2: mean there's I don't sorry, it just sounds so morbid.
Speaker 2: It's not that there's not a lot of time left,
Speaker 2: but like enough time has gone by, you know, like
Speaker 2: sure to avoid it. And you're saying that your grandmother
Speaker 2: said that to you, you know, don't embarrass him. And
Speaker 2: there always sentences that some adult has said to us
Speaker 2: that stick with us for the rest of our lives,
Speaker 2: that hold such little meaning. It's in a moment where
Speaker 2: they're saying something and sometimes they don't even know what
Speaker 2: they've said, or they'd have no idea how hurtful what
Speaker 2: they've said is. I can think of a couple of
Speaker 2: sentences my father said to me where I was like,
Speaker 2: I will never ever forget those two sentences. And I
Speaker 2: know he would probably want to take that back if
Speaker 2: he could, so I wouldn't put so much value in
Speaker 2: what someone said to you about another person.
Speaker 6: And if your grandmother could speak now, she might have
Speaker 6: something different to say about the situation. I mean she
Speaker 6: spoke from a place of being highly concerned about him
Speaker 6: and less concerned about you.
Speaker 1: And seeing how.
Speaker 6: You've struggled with this, probably over the last thirty years
Speaker 6: I think is you know, it's fair to say that
Speaker 6: perhaps she misspoke and your loyalty has been to her,
Speaker 6: But is she still alive? No? Okay, So that loyalty
Speaker 6: that you had with her, you know, it sounds like
Speaker 6: you've transferred it to your dad and you haven't even
Speaker 6: talked to him about this for him to say that
Speaker 6: there's any embarrassment or you know, any of these things
Speaker 6: that she assumes that he might feel. So it's you know,
Speaker 6: it's a lot of hearsay, and sometimes this is the
Speaker 6: thing that's needed to break situations open. It might explain
Speaker 6: a lot about who he is to his other children,
Speaker 6: like who knows. So I don't know if keeping this
Speaker 6: secret is something.
Speaker 1: That will feel good to you.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I love what you said about you know, she
Speaker 5: might have something different to say now because it was
Speaker 5: also probably a very different time culturally absolute when she
Speaker 5: said that, right, it was like back then it was
Speaker 5: this big, you know, shameful secret if you had a
Speaker 5: child out quote unquote out of wedlock.
Speaker 3: But you know, things are different now.
Speaker 7: Yeah, all right, all right, ladies, Okay, I guess I'm
Speaker 7: taking a plunge.
Speaker 2: Yeah, lady, go for it. Report back. Let us know
Speaker 2: how that works out. Okay, well, thank you so much
Speaker 2: for joining us. Thank you for all these wisdom pieces.
Speaker 2: I loved your book. I hope all of our listeners
Speaker 2: get it. And do you have another book?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: I have.
Speaker 1: I have a few books.
Speaker 6: I have Set Boundaries Fine Peace, I have Drama Free,
Speaker 6: and I have one coming out consider This that will
Speaker 6: be out in October.
Speaker 2: Okay, greatly exciting. Okay, well, thank you so much for
Speaker 2: being here. Ndra.
Speaker 1: You're welcome and have a great day you as well.
Speaker 2: Okay, bye, listeners, we'll here, we'll hear you and see
Speaker 2: you next week. That's from you to us, not the
Speaker 2: other way around. Okay. So upcoming shows that I have
Speaker 2: you guys, I'm coming to Texas. I'm coming to Saint
Speaker 2: Louis and Kansas City, and then I will be in
Speaker 2: Las Vegas performing at the Chelsea Theater inside the Cosmopolitan Hotel.
Speaker 2: I'm coming to Brooklyn, New York at the King's Theater
Speaker 2: on November eighth, and I have tickets on sale throughout
Speaker 2: the end of the year in December. So if you're
Speaker 2: in a city like Philadelphia or Bethlehem or San Diego
Speaker 2: or New Orleans or Omaha. Check Chelseahandler dot com for tickets. Okay,
Speaker 2: if you'd.
Speaker 5: Like advice from Chelsea, shoot us an email at Dear
Speaker 5: Chelsea podcast at gmail dot com and be sure to
Speaker 5: include your phone number. Dear Chelsea is edited and engineered
Speaker 5: by Brad Dickert executive producer Catherine Law and be sure
Speaker 5: to check out our merch at Chelseahandler dot com