WEBVTT - Family Secrets with Therapist Nedra Tawwab

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<v Speaker 1>Hi.

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<v Speaker 2>Hello. This is Chelsea Handler Joy, Chelsea Joy, Chelsea Joy Handler.

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<v Speaker 3>Hello, this is Catherine Elizabeth Lah. How are you.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh, I'm good. I'm just sitting here in my bedroom

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<v Speaker 2>with my big black lover, Doug, and he is so cute.

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<v Speaker 4>Now.

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<v Speaker 2>I came home. I was gone for two weeks. I

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<v Speaker 2>went to my worka and I came home and he

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<v Speaker 2>has this new thing where he just jumps on you

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<v Speaker 2>and then puts your hand in his mouth with a

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<v Speaker 2>light and he's not really biting, but he's trying to

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<v Speaker 2>drag you. And I'm like, you better cut that fucking

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<v Speaker 2>shit out, buddy, because people are not going to respond

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<v Speaker 2>well to they I'm doing that. People who don't like

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<v Speaker 2>dogs are gonna be scared, right, Doug, make sure Mobell

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<v Speaker 2>tregged him to do that.

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<v Speaker 5>While in my absence, she's like, fol of Shenanigan's that Mabel.

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<v Speaker 1>Of course.

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<v Speaker 2>Of course. I was just listening to Alex Cooper's interview

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<v Speaker 2>with Kamala Harris on My Jove in. I was so

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<v Speaker 2>so blown away that she got that interview. I texted

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<v Speaker 2>her right away. I was like, holy shit, So that's awesome,

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<v Speaker 2>that's amazing. I love to see that.

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<v Speaker 5>Yeah, I also like to see candidates being real and

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<v Speaker 5>normal in the modern world, like doing something like a podcast.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, exactly, exactly. I like when they just act like

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<v Speaker 2>normal people, Like you don't have to always be spouting Paul,

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<v Speaker 2>like you're a human being. I want to see the

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<v Speaker 2>human humanity in everyone you know and be like, Okay,

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<v Speaker 2>but anyway, I've been spending a lot of time in

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<v Speaker 2>my hyperbaric chamber because I'm a home for two weeks

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<v Speaker 2>and I figure I might as well regenerate and rejuvenate.

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<v Speaker 2>Or somebody told me the other day that my skin

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<v Speaker 2>looked incredible, and I was like, you know what, thanks

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<v Speaker 2>for that hot tip. I'm going to keep going. I'm like,

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<v Speaker 2>it must be the hyperbaric chamber.

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<v Speaker 5>So I was like sleeping like a vampire in your tube,

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<v Speaker 5>among all the other things that I do to myself.

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<v Speaker 3>Are you reading anything exciting right now?

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<v Speaker 2>I did. I just read a great book. I think

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know that it's out yet, because my editor

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<v Speaker 2>sent it to me. It's called Like Mother, Like Mother

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<v Speaker 2>by Susan Rieger. I read that. I read Cutting for

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<v Speaker 2>Stone Over the Break. That is long and laborious, and

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<v Speaker 2>I would not recommend that unless you're into you because

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<v Speaker 2>he's the one who wrote the Covenant of Water Abraham

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<v Speaker 2>fa Yes, yeah, I did just reread Many Lives, Many Masters,

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<v Speaker 2>because it's come up so many times on the podcast.

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<v Speaker 2>I did much. I just reread that and then I

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<v Speaker 2>gave it to my aunt because she could use a

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<v Speaker 2>little spirituality booster. I gave that to her with her

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<v Speaker 2>well bucher and that I dropped off at her house

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<v Speaker 2>the other day. I said, start taking one of these

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<v Speaker 2>a day every day. Please. She's like, you know, I'm

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<v Speaker 2>not unhappy. I'm like, no, no, no one's saying you're unhappy.

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<v Speaker 2>You just need a little bit of a moodlifter. I'm like,

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<v Speaker 2>it's just so that you're a little bit more optimistic. Yes,

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<v Speaker 2>And she's like, I am optimistic, but I'm also realistic.

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<v Speaker 2>And I'm dying. I'm like, you're not dying, you're just old.

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<v Speaker 2>We're all dying. That's my dad.

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<v Speaker 5>He's like ever since he turned I mean, I don't know,

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<v Speaker 5>probably thirty, but like literally every year he's like, I

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<v Speaker 5>probably won't make it five more years.

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<v Speaker 3>I'll probably die by the time i'm fifty.

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<v Speaker 2>Why do people say things like that. I so either

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<v Speaker 2>read or listened or someone told me that if we

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<v Speaker 2>make it through the next ten to fifteen years, we're

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<v Speaker 2>going to be able to live until we're one hundred

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<v Speaker 2>and twenty. I'm like, no, thank you. First of all,

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<v Speaker 2>I can't afford to live until I'm one hundred and twenty. Okay,

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<v Speaker 2>I don't have that kind of money. You want to

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<v Speaker 2>retire someday? Who the fuck wants to do that to

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<v Speaker 2>one hundred and twenty.

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<v Speaker 3>I mean, have you seen old people? It's hard to

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<v Speaker 3>get around.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh please, Well, apparently there's gonna have that. We're gonna

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<v Speaker 2>be all these things to help us keep us young.

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<v Speaker 2>But it's like I'm gonna spend most of my time

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<v Speaker 2>in a fucking hyperbaric chamber. I already feel like crazy

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<v Speaker 2>like a fox. Oh by the way, there are still

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<v Speaker 2>tickets for Kansas City, Saint Louis, and Indianapolis that are

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<v Speaker 2>coming up at the end of October October twenty fifth, sixth,

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<v Speaker 2>and seventh. Anyway, we have a serious guest today. We

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<v Speaker 2>have the professional today on the show No funny Stuff.

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<v Speaker 2>This was a recommendation from my friend Yanica. So please

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<v Speaker 2>welcome Nedra to wob Welcome Nedra to WAB Thank you

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<v Speaker 2>so much for being here today.

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<v Speaker 1>Thank you for having me.

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<v Speaker 2>I have lots of questions for you. I follow you

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<v Speaker 2>on Instagram. A lot of my friends also follow you

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<v Speaker 2>on Instagram, so I'm not sure who turned who on

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<v Speaker 2>to you. But I read your book Drama Free, and

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<v Speaker 2>I've sent it to a lot of people anonymously, just

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<v Speaker 2>so you know. I like to just send books to

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<v Speaker 2>people without them knowing exactly where it came from. But

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<v Speaker 2>there's a couple of things in your book that I

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<v Speaker 2>want to touch on right away. First of all, your

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<v Speaker 2>licensed therapist, so you have a lot of experience right

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<v Speaker 2>with dealing with different people, different kind of dynamics and relationships.

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<v Speaker 2>What I found very interesting, I had never really understood

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<v Speaker 2>the term enmeshment before, and I was interested in you

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<v Speaker 2>kind of delineating the difference between codependency and enmeshment because

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<v Speaker 2>some of the examples in the book that you used

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<v Speaker 2>for in meshment sounded to me like codependency. So I

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<v Speaker 2>want to be better at knowing what the real differentiation is.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh, that's a good one.

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<v Speaker 6>When I think of codependency, I think of us trying

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<v Speaker 6>to enable some unhealthy behavior, and a person trying to

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<v Speaker 6>rescue them from some sort of outcome, trying to manage

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<v Speaker 6>things in.

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<v Speaker 1>Their lives so they will be better.

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<v Speaker 6>When I think of, you know, this enmeshment that we

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<v Speaker 6>have in our relationships, people can be very healthy in

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<v Speaker 6>their own life and very enmeshed at the same time.

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<v Speaker 6>It's that couple that doesn't have any outside friends. It's

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<v Speaker 6>the siblings who won't let anybody else in. Nobody has

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<v Speaker 6>a drug addiction, nobody needs saving from anything. But there

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<v Speaker 6>is no outside influence. It's just us. And so the

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<v Speaker 6>enmeshment is really like we have no boundaries because we

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<v Speaker 6>have nothing else besides what's in this situation.

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<v Speaker 2>So would you say it's like a little bit like isolation,

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<v Speaker 2>like isolating someone.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, it could be isolating a lot of people.

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<v Speaker 6>I think you know you brought up Drama Free, which

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<v Speaker 6>is about dysfunctional family relationships, and one of the things

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<v Speaker 6>that happens in dysfunctional families is there is this immeshment around.

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<v Speaker 6>We are the only people who can love us, right

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<v Speaker 6>Like everybody else is an outsider, a friend, a teacher,

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<v Speaker 6>everyone is an outsider. It's only us. And it doesn't

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<v Speaker 6>mean that those people aren't healthy. For you, but it

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<v Speaker 6>certainly breaks up that dynamic and can point out some

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<v Speaker 6>of those things that are a bit dysfunctional, and so

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<v Speaker 6>for the dysfunctional system to sort of continue, we have

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<v Speaker 6>to be enmesh.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, because one of the examples you use for enmeshment,

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<v Speaker 2>I think if I recall, it was about like getting

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<v Speaker 2>accepted to a college that was far away from home,

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<v Speaker 2>and your family desiring for you to go to college

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<v Speaker 2>close to home, and you choosing to go out of state, say,

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<v Speaker 2>and then having there'd be a consequence within your family

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<v Speaker 2>about that, like how dare you go so far away

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<v Speaker 2>from us? You're supposed to stay close. So that's a

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<v Speaker 2>good example of enmeshment.

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<v Speaker 6>Absolutely, when we are unable to get away from something,

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<v Speaker 6>even if we're going to this healthier thing, even if

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<v Speaker 6>our family has taken really great care of us, they

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<v Speaker 6>don't want us to leave. It's very healthy for people

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<v Speaker 6>around a certain age to leave the nest. And if

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<v Speaker 6>you're not allowed to do that, that can be problematic

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<v Speaker 6>for you. If you're not allowed to raise your children

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<v Speaker 6>a little differently than how you were raised, if you're

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<v Speaker 6>not allowed to have friends outside of the family, if

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<v Speaker 6>you're not allowed to go on vacation with people who

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<v Speaker 6>are other than family. Those things are problematic.

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<v Speaker 2>That very much sounds to me like an instance of

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<v Speaker 2>a man controlling a woman, say in a relationship where

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<v Speaker 2>they isolate them, right, and they don't want them to

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<v Speaker 2>have any friends, They don't want them to do anything

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<v Speaker 2>unless it's been approved. That kind of abuse, that kind

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<v Speaker 2>of situation that most typically leads to abuse control.

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<v Speaker 6>Right, Yes, so it typically is a control tactic because

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<v Speaker 6>the people we love, we want other people to love

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<v Speaker 6>them as well. And if I am saying to you

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<v Speaker 6>I am the only person who can love you, or

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<v Speaker 6>we are the only people who can love you, I

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<v Speaker 6>will pick the people that's not good for your sense

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<v Speaker 6>of autonomy, like you don't get to you know, be

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<v Speaker 6>at work. It maybe pick some people who are good

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<v Speaker 6>for you because they've already been picked. And so if

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<v Speaker 6>I am saying I am the barrier for entry of

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<v Speaker 6>anyone else, yes, I'm trying to control your life in

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<v Speaker 6>some sort of way.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, let's talk about counter dependency versus codependency. So would

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<v Speaker 2>you say that counter dependency is basically the opposite of codependency.

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<v Speaker 6>Well, yes, counter dependency is the isolation of people as supports,

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<v Speaker 6>as confidantes, as emotional companions. People who are counter dependent,

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<v Speaker 6>they tend to function pretty well in life. They have

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<v Speaker 6>this very strong exterior. They have a mantra of I

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<v Speaker 6>don't need anyone to really do it yourselfers they believe

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<v Speaker 6>in this philosophy of being self made, and they have

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<v Speaker 6>a high ability to feel very lonely because we need

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<v Speaker 6>people in the world. When you are of the mindset

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<v Speaker 6>that people have harmed you and the safest thing to

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<v Speaker 6>do is stay away from people, it causes this isolation

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<v Speaker 6>of I am the only one with me, so even

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<v Speaker 6>if I can do it all, I still feel bad

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<v Speaker 6>about having to do it all, even if I'm pushing

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<v Speaker 6>people away. So sometimes, you know, we'll see this in

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<v Speaker 6>dating as the person everything is going really well, it

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<v Speaker 6>seems like it's a you know, really great relationship, and

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<v Speaker 6>then it's supposed to maybe go to the next step,

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<v Speaker 6>and they start to push you away because there's too

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<v Speaker 6>much closeness, there's too much vulnerability. So you see that

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<v Speaker 6>a lot with folks who are counterdependent, or and you

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<v Speaker 6>may see them carrying a heavy load and they are

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<v Speaker 6>unable to allow you to help them. Sometimes with our

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<v Speaker 6>family members. This is the person who we don't see

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<v Speaker 6>very often, the person who may not call us, the

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<v Speaker 6>person who keeps to themselves, but they function pretty well

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<v Speaker 6>in life, but they are very isolated from everyone else.

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<v Speaker 2>And is there a way to be counterdependent? Because my

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<v Speaker 2>sister and I were talking about this term over the

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<v Speaker 2>weekend and we were saying how we were both we

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<v Speaker 2>both became counterdependent because our parents were so well useless

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<v Speaker 2>pretty much. I mean they were around, but they weren't

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<v Speaker 2>really doing anything. And so we were like, oh, we're

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<v Speaker 2>both but we weren't. We're both very much involved in

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<v Speaker 2>our family. We're not isolated from our family. So how

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<v Speaker 2>does that fit in? Like, if you're somebody who's very

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<v Speaker 2>self sufficient, like I always feel like that. I'm like, oh,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm all on my own. I've got to do everything

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<v Speaker 2>on my own. But I've become quite used to that

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<v Speaker 2>because that's how I grew up, Like I had to

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<v Speaker 2>be self sufficient, but I'm not isolated from the rest

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<v Speaker 2>of the family.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, how do you invite people in?

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<v Speaker 2>I've always have people around.

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<v Speaker 1>But how do you invite people in emotionally?

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<v Speaker 6>Because there's a difference between having people around and being

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<v Speaker 6>around people and being able to show up in that

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<v Speaker 6>space and allowing people to be there for you, allowing

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<v Speaker 6>people to support you when you're going through something, not

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<v Speaker 6>you always being the supporter, but really letting people in,

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<v Speaker 6>letting them know what's going on. So you can have

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<v Speaker 6>relationships and still not be evotionally available in those relationships.

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<v Speaker 6>So I would wonder if a person is counterdependent, how

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<v Speaker 6>are you being vulnerable or not?

0:11:39.160 --> 0:11:41.520
<v Speaker 2>So coundre dependent would mean that you're not that you

0:11:41.640 --> 0:11:45.880
<v Speaker 2>are being invulnerable or can you be counterdependent and be vulnerable?

0:11:47.760 --> 0:11:53.079
<v Speaker 6>Counterdependent and vulnerable with a small few, with a small few.

0:11:53.200 --> 0:11:56.640
<v Speaker 6>Sometimes I'm just gonna live into that category.

0:11:56.760 --> 0:11:57.480
<v Speaker 3>I think that's true.

0:11:57.960 --> 0:12:00.959
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, with a small few, because what I've seen with

0:12:01.000 --> 0:12:05.199
<v Speaker 6>that is people who are vulnerable with a small few

0:12:05.600 --> 0:12:08.400
<v Speaker 6>is it is very small. I mean it's not enough

0:12:08.440 --> 0:12:14.040
<v Speaker 6>to even have a party with. It's really like I

0:12:14.120 --> 0:12:17.680
<v Speaker 6>have two people, and if something happens to these two people,

0:12:17.760 --> 0:12:20.600
<v Speaker 6>I don't have anyone else. There's no inviting in, there's

0:12:20.679 --> 0:12:24.360
<v Speaker 6>no more opening up because you know, again, somewhere along

0:12:24.440 --> 0:12:26.680
<v Speaker 6>the way, like you said, like you know, my parents

0:12:26.720 --> 0:12:30.400
<v Speaker 6>were useless, So I grew accustomed to doing things on

0:12:30.440 --> 0:12:32.760
<v Speaker 6>my own because I know I can do them. Well,

0:12:32.920 --> 0:12:35.800
<v Speaker 6>I know things will be done, and I have not

0:12:36.040 --> 0:12:39.920
<v Speaker 6>developed that trust for other people to do them. Now

0:12:39.960 --> 0:12:42.199
<v Speaker 6>I can talk to people about my problems, but I

0:12:42.240 --> 0:12:44.880
<v Speaker 6>don't really want people to get in there and resolve

0:12:44.960 --> 0:12:48.800
<v Speaker 6>my problems for me. So I think there is some

0:12:48.960 --> 0:12:54.040
<v Speaker 6>variation of how we're vulnerable with others as well. Sometimes

0:12:54.080 --> 0:13:00.120
<v Speaker 6>with counterdependency, people are very vulnerable after the fact. They

0:13:00.160 --> 0:13:03.679
<v Speaker 6>they talk about things as they have already resolved those things,

0:13:03.679 --> 0:13:07.360
<v Speaker 6>and not necessarily maybe as they're going through those things.

0:13:08.000 --> 0:13:12.280
<v Speaker 2>Okay, let's talk about the term. Is it alexathemia. That

0:13:12.440 --> 0:13:14.120
<v Speaker 2>was a word I had to look up that I've

0:13:14.520 --> 0:13:16.439
<v Speaker 2>learned in your book, So thank you. I love learning

0:13:16.480 --> 0:13:19.560
<v Speaker 2>new words. So tell us what that means.

0:13:20.160 --> 0:13:27.000
<v Speaker 6>Alexithymia is where we have like this emotional restriction. We're

0:13:27.000 --> 0:13:29.959
<v Speaker 6>not aware of what we feel. We almost can't tap

0:13:30.000 --> 0:13:33.959
<v Speaker 6>into our emotions. Sometimes this will show up in people

0:13:34.400 --> 0:13:37.960
<v Speaker 6>saying things like I don't cry, or I don't get

0:13:38.040 --> 0:13:41.920
<v Speaker 6>upset about stuff, or I don't get very angry. Well,

0:13:42.160 --> 0:13:46.480
<v Speaker 6>emotions are very helpful for us. Now how we express

0:13:46.559 --> 0:13:49.400
<v Speaker 6>those emotions it matters. You can be angry, but do

0:13:49.440 --> 0:13:51.079
<v Speaker 6>we want you to be angry and get out of

0:13:51.120 --> 0:13:52.920
<v Speaker 6>your car and yell at a driver. No, we don't

0:13:52.960 --> 0:13:55.920
<v Speaker 6>want that, but it is okay to have some level

0:13:56.559 --> 0:14:01.840
<v Speaker 6>of a feeling in your body. Ultimately, you know, people

0:14:01.920 --> 0:14:04.960
<v Speaker 6>have to be able to identify what their feeling is.

0:14:05.000 --> 0:14:07.440
<v Speaker 6>And with alexithymia, I think we see a lot of

0:14:07.480 --> 0:14:10.320
<v Speaker 6>folks who don't even know what they feel. It's like,

0:14:10.440 --> 0:14:13.360
<v Speaker 6>I don't know what I feel. I'm often confused about

0:14:13.800 --> 0:14:17.520
<v Speaker 6>what my feeling is about this thing, or they're pocketing

0:14:17.679 --> 0:14:21.040
<v Speaker 6>everything into you know, maybe two feelings. I'm angry or

0:14:21.040 --> 0:14:24.440
<v Speaker 6>I'm sad. Well, let's talk about this whole wheel of

0:14:25.080 --> 0:14:25.760
<v Speaker 6>other things.

0:14:25.800 --> 0:14:26.400
<v Speaker 1>You might feel.

0:14:26.440 --> 0:14:30.040
<v Speaker 6>You might feel disappointed, you might feel confused, you might

0:14:30.120 --> 0:14:35.600
<v Speaker 6>feel lonely. So being able to communicate your feelings, especially,

0:14:36.160 --> 0:14:40.760
<v Speaker 6>you know, going back to counterdependency, a lot of counterdependent

0:14:40.840 --> 0:14:45.800
<v Speaker 6>folks really struggle with being able to identify what they're feeling,

0:14:45.880 --> 0:14:48.680
<v Speaker 6>and so it can be challenging in your relationships with

0:14:48.760 --> 0:14:52.560
<v Speaker 6>people if you can't even show feeling and then be

0:14:52.640 --> 0:14:56.360
<v Speaker 6>able to recognize those feelings and other people and respond

0:14:56.400 --> 0:14:59.560
<v Speaker 6>to it because you don't have them. You're like, I

0:14:59.560 --> 0:15:02.560
<v Speaker 6>don't even understand why they're upset about this thing because

0:15:02.640 --> 0:15:06.320
<v Speaker 6>that wouldn't upset me. Well, we have to be able

0:15:06.360 --> 0:15:09.480
<v Speaker 6>to show up for people in relationships. We have to

0:15:09.480 --> 0:15:13.360
<v Speaker 6>be able to acknowledge what we're feeling. And you know,

0:15:13.480 --> 0:15:17.680
<v Speaker 6>as a therapist, we use things like feelings charts and

0:15:18.040 --> 0:15:21.840
<v Speaker 6>you know, mood trackers to kind of help you distinguish

0:15:21.920 --> 0:15:27.320
<v Speaker 6>between a happy moment, of exciting moment, a sad moment,

0:15:27.360 --> 0:15:30.400
<v Speaker 6>of this moment of that moment, because most people will

0:15:30.440 --> 0:15:32.840
<v Speaker 6>give you like two things, but once you break it down,

0:15:32.920 --> 0:15:35.920
<v Speaker 6>it can be hopeful to know that, actually I was

0:15:36.120 --> 0:15:39.600
<v Speaker 6>enraged when I did that. That was a step beyond anger.

0:15:40.080 --> 0:15:43.840
<v Speaker 6>When I responded in that way, I was actually very hurt.

0:15:44.040 --> 0:15:47.720
<v Speaker 6>I wasn't angry. Those can be very hopeful tools for

0:15:47.800 --> 0:15:51.000
<v Speaker 6>you to be able to communicate with others and certainly

0:15:51.080 --> 0:15:52.480
<v Speaker 6>to manage your behaviors.

0:15:53.400 --> 0:15:55.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you talk about that a little bit with a

0:15:55.040 --> 0:15:57.720
<v Speaker 2>couple that like, this woman was just frustrated with her

0:15:57.760 --> 0:15:59.160
<v Speaker 2>husband and not he wasn't able.

0:15:59.280 --> 0:15:59.520
<v Speaker 1>She was.

0:15:59.560 --> 0:16:01.480
<v Speaker 2>She was ready to leave him, and he wanted to

0:16:01.520 --> 0:16:04.360
<v Speaker 2>maintain the relationship and stay in the marriage. Yet he

0:16:04.480 --> 0:16:07.280
<v Speaker 2>didn't know how to He didn't know how to communicate

0:16:07.360 --> 0:16:09.680
<v Speaker 2>or what the problem was because he had grown up

0:16:09.680 --> 0:16:11.960
<v Speaker 2>with a family of you know, parents who were divorced

0:16:12.040 --> 0:16:14.440
<v Speaker 2>or had an unhealthy dynamic, and so he didn't know

0:16:14.480 --> 0:16:17.720
<v Speaker 2>how to express his emotions. And when someone is that stuck,

0:16:18.240 --> 0:16:20.600
<v Speaker 2>and you talk about this also like having patients that

0:16:20.640 --> 0:16:23.520
<v Speaker 2>aren't ready to make changes, you know, sometimes there's like

0:16:23.560 --> 0:16:25.840
<v Speaker 2>a phase of there are several phases of going to

0:16:25.920 --> 0:16:28.280
<v Speaker 2>therapy where you're curious enough to think that there is

0:16:28.320 --> 0:16:30.640
<v Speaker 2>a problem. Then you go and you start talking to somebody.

0:16:30.720 --> 0:16:33.480
<v Speaker 2>But I know from experience, my own therapy experience, that

0:16:33.520 --> 0:16:36.520
<v Speaker 2>it is there's a phases to when you're willing to

0:16:36.600 --> 0:16:40.160
<v Speaker 2>accept and learn more about yourself and actually gain self

0:16:40.200 --> 0:16:44.520
<v Speaker 2>awareness about your behavior. But when someone is so stuck

0:16:45.080 --> 0:16:51.480
<v Speaker 2>and is emotionally unavailable and emotionally almost uneducated, right, they

0:16:51.480 --> 0:16:55.000
<v Speaker 2>have an inability to express themselves, where do you begin?

0:16:55.720 --> 0:16:58.000
<v Speaker 2>How do you salvage a marriage if somebody is that

0:16:58.120 --> 0:17:01.280
<v Speaker 2>far removed from their own emotions.

0:17:01.000 --> 0:17:03.840
<v Speaker 6>Well, if that person is in therapy, I think a

0:17:03.960 --> 0:17:07.239
<v Speaker 6>therapist would point out their feelings for them. There have

0:17:07.359 --> 0:17:10.720
<v Speaker 6>been times where I say, you know, you sound very

0:17:10.760 --> 0:17:15.040
<v Speaker 6>sad about your partner wanting to leave the relationship without

0:17:15.080 --> 0:17:18.480
<v Speaker 6>that person being able to identify, Oh my gosh, I'm sad.

0:17:18.520 --> 0:17:22.000
<v Speaker 6>I'm like, is this accurate or am I far off right?

0:17:22.080 --> 0:17:25.520
<v Speaker 6>And then we'll talk about what that feeling looks like.

0:17:26.359 --> 0:17:29.720
<v Speaker 6>But if that person is not in therapy, I think

0:17:29.760 --> 0:17:33.000
<v Speaker 6>sometimes when we're in relationships with people, it can be

0:17:33.080 --> 0:17:37.360
<v Speaker 6>really challenging to push them to the point of change

0:17:37.880 --> 0:17:40.680
<v Speaker 6>because people have to want that, and there are you know,

0:17:40.760 --> 0:17:43.639
<v Speaker 6>there are people who grow an age who you know,

0:17:44.080 --> 0:17:48.080
<v Speaker 6>never change because it's it's so uncomfortable. It can be

0:17:48.160 --> 0:17:52.080
<v Speaker 6>so uncomfortable to move away from this idea that I

0:17:52.240 --> 0:17:54.840
<v Speaker 6>have to manage everything or I have to keep things

0:17:54.880 --> 0:17:58.440
<v Speaker 6>really private to I'm going to be an open book

0:17:58.480 --> 0:18:03.120
<v Speaker 6>with someone. For some people, they would rather that marriage

0:18:03.240 --> 0:18:07.600
<v Speaker 6>in than to risk being vulnerable in that relationship, because

0:18:07.600 --> 0:18:11.320
<v Speaker 6>that's way scarier. I have had some clients where it

0:18:11.400 --> 0:18:14.800
<v Speaker 6>has taken you know, maybe years maybe for them to

0:18:14.840 --> 0:18:18.520
<v Speaker 6>get to this point of being able to quickly recognize

0:18:18.560 --> 0:18:23.560
<v Speaker 6>what they feel and act on it. Particularly in marriages.

0:18:23.720 --> 0:18:26.280
<v Speaker 6>You know, a lot of marriages. You know, we kind

0:18:26.320 --> 0:18:29.720
<v Speaker 6>of talk about infidelity, We talk about, you know, how

0:18:29.760 --> 0:18:33.000
<v Speaker 6>you communicate when people have kids. That's a really troubling

0:18:33.080 --> 0:18:33.800
<v Speaker 6>spot as well.

0:18:34.160 --> 0:18:36.399
<v Speaker 2>I want to talk about this section of your Brook.

0:18:36.440 --> 0:18:38.719
<v Speaker 2>I took a screen grab because I found this it

0:18:38.800 --> 0:18:42.400
<v Speaker 2>resonated for a lot of situations that I've seen before

0:18:42.400 --> 0:18:46.359
<v Speaker 2>signs of emotionally immature parents. So there's a list of

0:18:46.560 --> 0:18:48.639
<v Speaker 2>One of the first thing says you feel lonely when

0:18:48.680 --> 0:18:51.760
<v Speaker 2>you're with them, which is so sad. The relationship is

0:18:51.760 --> 0:18:56.399
<v Speaker 2>one sided. They dismiss or minimize your emotions. They demand compliance,

0:18:56.440 --> 0:19:00.639
<v Speaker 2>and they don't respect boundaries. Also, they make their problems

0:19:00.680 --> 0:19:03.800
<v Speaker 2>seem more significant than yours, and they are unable to

0:19:03.840 --> 0:19:07.840
<v Speaker 2>hold space for your feelings or problems. So it sounds

0:19:08.320 --> 0:19:12.800
<v Speaker 2>that sounds also very narcissistic. Is there a correlation between

0:19:13.040 --> 0:19:16.240
<v Speaker 2>being like an immature parent because all of these things

0:19:16.280 --> 0:19:18.760
<v Speaker 2>are also signs they think of narcissism.

0:19:18.840 --> 0:19:23.560
<v Speaker 6>No, they could be, but I think a narcissis is

0:19:23.960 --> 0:19:29.520
<v Speaker 6>a little more strategic. I think an emotionally unavailable parent

0:19:30.560 --> 0:19:35.240
<v Speaker 6>is maybe a little more aloof because there can be

0:19:35.320 --> 0:19:37.600
<v Speaker 6>love there, like the parent can love.

0:19:37.400 --> 0:19:40.840
<v Speaker 1>You, but just not have those tools to really show

0:19:40.920 --> 0:19:41.520
<v Speaker 1>up in a way.

0:19:41.680 --> 0:19:46.440
<v Speaker 6>Even if you tell them like the application of these things,

0:19:47.640 --> 0:19:50.359
<v Speaker 6>they can't quite grasp it. So I would say what

0:19:50.440 --> 0:19:54.119
<v Speaker 6>a narcissist is a little more strategic. They really don't

0:19:54.160 --> 0:19:58.239
<v Speaker 6>have a desire to change. They are certainly manipulating a

0:19:58.280 --> 0:20:03.320
<v Speaker 6>situation with an emotionally immature parent. There just may be

0:20:03.440 --> 0:20:08.080
<v Speaker 6>a lack of understanding. Certainly they don't have a grasp

0:20:08.160 --> 0:20:13.280
<v Speaker 6>on their mental health. And I think that if a

0:20:13.400 --> 0:20:19.719
<v Speaker 6>narcissist or emotionally available person was a client, the emotionally

0:20:19.800 --> 0:20:23.919
<v Speaker 6>unavailable parent would likely be able to change and the

0:20:24.080 --> 0:20:25.119
<v Speaker 6>narcissist would not.

0:20:25.720 --> 0:20:29.119
<v Speaker 2>Right, because it is that's typical, right. I remember asking

0:20:29.160 --> 0:20:31.760
<v Speaker 2>my therapist if I was a narcissist, and he said,

0:20:31.800 --> 0:20:34.080
<v Speaker 2>typically narcissists aren't asking for feedback.

0:20:36.720 --> 0:20:37.040
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

0:20:37.200 --> 0:20:42.879
<v Speaker 6>I think sometimes we confuse narcissism with like being highly

0:20:42.920 --> 0:20:47.040
<v Speaker 6>concerned or putting your needs in the forefront, Like that's

0:20:47.080 --> 0:20:52.080
<v Speaker 6>not necessarily narcissistic. I think there is some strategy to

0:20:52.600 --> 0:20:56.360
<v Speaker 6>a narcissist that maybe we don't understand about that dynamic

0:20:56.400 --> 0:21:00.600
<v Speaker 6>where someone is strategically trying to manipulate you or make

0:21:00.640 --> 0:21:03.760
<v Speaker 6>you believe something is happening that's not happening.

0:21:03.760 --> 0:21:05.360
<v Speaker 1>With a parent.

0:21:06.119 --> 0:21:10.640
<v Speaker 6>I think what's happening is that parent probably still needs

0:21:10.640 --> 0:21:14.399
<v Speaker 6>a lot of parenting themselves, so being able to show

0:21:14.480 --> 0:21:17.520
<v Speaker 6>up for a child is just out of their wheelhouse.

0:21:17.680 --> 0:21:21.159
<v Speaker 6>Because they're really still looking for the same things that

0:21:21.200 --> 0:21:24.080
<v Speaker 6>you're looking for, which is a lot of nurturing. Kids

0:21:24.160 --> 0:21:27.000
<v Speaker 6>lead a lot they need people to tune into their world,

0:21:27.359 --> 0:21:30.119
<v Speaker 6>and some parents they just don't have those skills and

0:21:30.440 --> 0:21:32.880
<v Speaker 6>they don't really know how to develop them because they're

0:21:32.920 --> 0:21:36.120
<v Speaker 6>still trying to get it from you or to give

0:21:36.119 --> 0:21:37.320
<v Speaker 6>it to themselves.

0:21:38.000 --> 0:21:40.400
<v Speaker 2>And what advice would you give to children like that

0:21:40.400 --> 0:21:44.199
<v Speaker 2>that are dealing with an emotionally immature parent. How do

0:21:44.240 --> 0:21:44.879
<v Speaker 2>you guide that?

0:21:46.320 --> 0:21:49.879
<v Speaker 6>Well, you can have a relationship with an emotionally immature parent,

0:21:50.680 --> 0:21:56.439
<v Speaker 6>the relationship is not going to be ideal because you

0:21:56.560 --> 0:22:00.440
<v Speaker 6>cannot change that parent. So you know, for instance, if

0:22:00.480 --> 0:22:03.520
<v Speaker 6>you have a parent who doesn't respond to let's say

0:22:03.560 --> 0:22:06.280
<v Speaker 6>your career successes and you're like, mom, I got a

0:22:06.320 --> 0:22:08.320
<v Speaker 6>new show, or mom, I got this thing going on,

0:22:08.359 --> 0:22:12.159
<v Speaker 6>and they're like, oh, okay, you may want to not

0:22:12.359 --> 0:22:16.840
<v Speaker 6>share with your parent until you feel secure in the

0:22:16.880 --> 0:22:19.480
<v Speaker 6>way that they might respond. You may want to share

0:22:19.520 --> 0:22:22.520
<v Speaker 6>with people who can really have a warm level of

0:22:22.600 --> 0:22:25.760
<v Speaker 6>excitement and then tell your parent as a formality. But

0:22:25.960 --> 0:22:29.880
<v Speaker 6>going to that person who has shown that they can't support,

0:22:29.920 --> 0:22:32.720
<v Speaker 6>you know, looking for that support, that's going to hurt

0:22:32.760 --> 0:22:37.320
<v Speaker 6>you every time. So the strategy for being in relationships

0:22:37.359 --> 0:22:41.960
<v Speaker 6>with emotionally unavailable people is really to manage how you

0:22:42.119 --> 0:22:46.879
<v Speaker 6>interact with them, your expectations around what they are actually

0:22:46.960 --> 0:22:51.520
<v Speaker 6>capable of. With parents, we often give them expectations that

0:22:51.880 --> 0:22:56.359
<v Speaker 6>they can never achieve because you know, everybody is not

0:22:56.440 --> 0:22:59.320
<v Speaker 6>prepared to parent. What is the stat like seventy percent

0:22:59.359 --> 0:23:03.800
<v Speaker 6>of people have unplanned pregnancies, So you know, people are

0:23:03.840 --> 0:23:09.439
<v Speaker 6>not necessarily equipped to deal with everything that you know

0:23:09.600 --> 0:23:12.320
<v Speaker 6>happens with a child, even when that child is an adult.

0:23:12.680 --> 0:23:13.480
<v Speaker 1>Because you'll have.

0:23:13.400 --> 0:23:15.720
<v Speaker 6>A lot of adults who say, well, maybe I could

0:23:15.840 --> 0:23:18.000
<v Speaker 6>understand that they didn't get it when I was a kid,

0:23:18.040 --> 0:23:21.520
<v Speaker 6>but now I'm thirty, I'm forty, and they still don't

0:23:21.520 --> 0:23:24.199
<v Speaker 6>get it. And it's like, why do you think that

0:23:24.280 --> 0:23:30.320
<v Speaker 6>the aging process means maturing emotionally? It doesn't necessarily mean that.

0:23:30.400 --> 0:23:36.400
<v Speaker 6>And you're talking about them maturing during a high stress scenario.

0:23:36.560 --> 0:23:39.160
<v Speaker 6>They were raising you and working and doing all these things.

0:23:39.320 --> 0:23:42.679
<v Speaker 6>That's not the time to mature. So you know this

0:23:42.960 --> 0:23:46.280
<v Speaker 6>idea that our parents should be able to get it

0:23:46.359 --> 0:23:49.680
<v Speaker 6>at some point, it's like, well, what work have they done?

0:23:50.080 --> 0:23:52.960
<v Speaker 6>What work are they doing? Are they listening to this podcast.

0:23:53.000 --> 0:23:56.479
<v Speaker 6>Are they going to seminars? Are they in therapy? Like,

0:23:56.600 --> 0:24:00.840
<v Speaker 6>what are they doing? If they're not doing anything, expectation

0:24:01.080 --> 0:24:05.160
<v Speaker 6>of them changing is pretty small. And if you're into

0:24:05.280 --> 0:24:10.400
<v Speaker 6>this sort of self improvement work and mental health projects

0:24:10.440 --> 0:24:12.560
<v Speaker 6>and all of this sort of stuff, if you're into that,

0:24:12.920 --> 0:24:15.880
<v Speaker 6>then that's great for you. But it's certainly not something

0:24:15.920 --> 0:24:18.520
<v Speaker 6>that is likely to rub off on a person who

0:24:18.600 --> 0:24:22.439
<v Speaker 6>is uninterested, and certainly a person who doesn't seem to

0:24:22.480 --> 0:24:23.879
<v Speaker 6>have a problem with themselves.

0:24:24.320 --> 0:24:27.040
<v Speaker 2>Okay, that's very interesting. Not everybody is mature and just

0:24:27.080 --> 0:24:30.200
<v Speaker 2>because they are getting older, right, that's an important nugget

0:24:30.240 --> 0:24:34.160
<v Speaker 2>of information to remember when you're dealing with a sixty

0:24:34.240 --> 0:24:37.400
<v Speaker 2>year old moron. Remember that, everybody. Okay, we're gonna take

0:24:37.400 --> 0:24:38.960
<v Speaker 2>a quick break and we'll be right back to take

0:24:38.960 --> 0:24:39.560
<v Speaker 2>some callers.

0:24:44.600 --> 0:24:45.880
<v Speaker 1>We're back, We are back.

0:24:45.920 --> 0:24:47.960
<v Speaker 2>Okay, we're back with that. You're chob Yeah.

0:24:47.960 --> 0:24:50.440
<v Speaker 3>So I wanted to ask about enmeshment.

0:24:50.600 --> 0:24:53.080
<v Speaker 5>And we get a lot of calls and emails from

0:24:53.119 --> 0:24:56.760
<v Speaker 5>people who are having difficulty with their family, either because

0:24:56.800 --> 0:24:59.360
<v Speaker 5>they have chosen to leave the religion that they grew

0:24:59.480 --> 0:25:01.720
<v Speaker 5>up in, that they were raised in, or that they

0:25:01.720 --> 0:25:03.840
<v Speaker 5>come out of the closet and their families have a

0:25:03.880 --> 0:25:04.840
<v Speaker 5>poor reaction to that.

0:25:05.200 --> 0:25:09.040
<v Speaker 3>So I wonder is that a consequence of enmeshment Leaving.

0:25:08.800 --> 0:25:14.920
<v Speaker 6>A religion can be, particularly if you're unwilling to support

0:25:15.000 --> 0:25:17.840
<v Speaker 6>your child and discovering the new belief, or if you

0:25:17.920 --> 0:25:21.159
<v Speaker 6>are unwilling to even accept your child if they have

0:25:21.240 --> 0:25:22.359
<v Speaker 6>a new belief.

0:25:22.760 --> 0:25:25.520
<v Speaker 1>Particularly one that they're not joining a cult.

0:25:25.960 --> 0:25:30.320
<v Speaker 6>You know, you have this sometimes like within Christian sex

0:25:30.560 --> 0:25:33.439
<v Speaker 6>right like oh my gosh, you've went from Catholic to

0:25:33.560 --> 0:25:35.560
<v Speaker 6>this other thing, or you went from this to that,

0:25:35.680 --> 0:25:38.320
<v Speaker 6>and you know, people can have a lot of conversation

0:25:38.480 --> 0:25:43.080
<v Speaker 6>around that, meaning that everyone in this family needs to

0:25:43.119 --> 0:25:48.080
<v Speaker 6>be Presbyterian. Everyone in this family needs to be you know,

0:25:48.160 --> 0:25:50.560
<v Speaker 6>this particular thing, and if you are not that we

0:25:50.760 --> 0:25:55.840
<v Speaker 6>cannot accept it. So that is an example of enmeshment.

0:25:56.200 --> 0:25:59.879
<v Speaker 6>I would say that if you have a child or

0:25:59.840 --> 0:26:03.919
<v Speaker 6>some one in the family who is LGBTQ, typically that

0:26:04.240 --> 0:26:08.320
<v Speaker 6>is a value challenge in families that we do not

0:26:08.480 --> 0:26:11.000
<v Speaker 6>believe or we do not support this thing. Is not

0:26:11.240 --> 0:26:15.520
<v Speaker 6>necessarily we all have to be this one thing. I

0:26:15.560 --> 0:26:17.800
<v Speaker 6>think that is a little deeper, and it goes to

0:26:18.640 --> 0:26:20.960
<v Speaker 6>you know, if you are not this thing you end

0:26:21.040 --> 0:26:23.840
<v Speaker 6>up here, so it you know, I think that's a

0:26:23.960 --> 0:26:26.520
<v Speaker 6>really big thing in families, and I do talk about

0:26:26.560 --> 0:26:30.120
<v Speaker 6>that a bit and drama free as to what I've

0:26:30.160 --> 0:26:33.199
<v Speaker 6>seen sort of backfire for families. I live in the

0:26:33.240 --> 0:26:36.880
<v Speaker 6>South and so I do encounter a lot of folks

0:26:36.960 --> 0:26:41.200
<v Speaker 6>who are, you know, perhaps Christian, and you know, their

0:26:41.280 --> 0:26:44.840
<v Speaker 6>family does not believe in, you know, them having a

0:26:44.840 --> 0:26:47.440
<v Speaker 6>certain type of lifestyle, and it is a rough road.

0:26:47.720 --> 0:26:53.679
<v Speaker 6>And my suggestions there is always too one be yourself

0:26:54.080 --> 0:26:59.640
<v Speaker 6>and two also recognize it. In those situations, you are

0:27:00.040 --> 0:27:03.720
<v Speaker 6>redefining their idea of who they thought you were, and

0:27:03.800 --> 0:27:06.920
<v Speaker 6>they have to be able to process that. Sometimes they

0:27:07.000 --> 0:27:10.240
<v Speaker 6>process it with you, which is terrible because who wants

0:27:10.280 --> 0:27:14.520
<v Speaker 6>to hear it. And sometimes they find, you know, a

0:27:14.560 --> 0:27:18.200
<v Speaker 6>therapist or someone else to process it with. But there

0:27:18.400 --> 0:27:20.960
<v Speaker 6>is this period of time where you know, in some

0:27:21.119 --> 0:27:25.280
<v Speaker 6>families they do go through this like value or moral crisis,

0:27:25.840 --> 0:27:28.040
<v Speaker 6>even when they love you and want to be in

0:27:28.119 --> 0:27:30.679
<v Speaker 6>relationship with you. And I would say that that is

0:27:31.080 --> 0:27:33.960
<v Speaker 6>you know, on the on the realm of normal to

0:27:34.080 --> 0:27:36.160
<v Speaker 6>have this sort of like I thought it was this

0:27:36.400 --> 0:27:40.919
<v Speaker 6>and now I'm starting to understand that you will have

0:27:40.960 --> 0:27:42.720
<v Speaker 6>a different life than what I thought it was.

0:27:42.960 --> 0:27:44.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And I think that's about It's very important to

0:27:45.000 --> 0:27:47.159
<v Speaker 2>remember the processing time because for someone like me, I'm

0:27:47.280 --> 0:27:49.320
<v Speaker 2>very impatient. I want everything to be quick.

0:27:49.600 --> 0:27:50.119
<v Speaker 1>I'm quick.

0:27:50.280 --> 0:27:52.640
<v Speaker 2>I take things in quickly and I and I can

0:27:52.760 --> 0:27:55.440
<v Speaker 2>spit them back out quickly and I can comprehend the situation.

0:27:55.520 --> 0:27:57.959
<v Speaker 2>But a lot of people do need a duration of

0:27:58.000 --> 0:28:01.280
<v Speaker 2>time to actually process whatever for new information that they've

0:28:01.320 --> 0:28:04.080
<v Speaker 2>been given. So when you do get a bad reaction

0:28:04.440 --> 0:28:06.639
<v Speaker 2>if you're say it is you're coming out to your

0:28:06.680 --> 0:28:09.640
<v Speaker 2>family and your family isn't as receptive as you would

0:28:09.640 --> 0:28:12.280
<v Speaker 2>hope they would be, there is a period of time

0:28:12.280 --> 0:28:14.720
<v Speaker 2>that you have to allow people to adjust to the

0:28:14.760 --> 0:28:17.600
<v Speaker 2>new information. And I think we can say, you know,

0:28:17.680 --> 0:28:20.840
<v Speaker 2>I know personally, I can lose sight of that. And

0:28:21.040 --> 0:28:23.480
<v Speaker 2>it's a good reminder for all of our listeners. You know,

0:28:23.560 --> 0:28:27.200
<v Speaker 2>everybody processes things differently, and some people take a lot

0:28:27.240 --> 0:28:29.840
<v Speaker 2>of time and some people take, you know, less time.

0:28:29.920 --> 0:28:34.240
<v Speaker 2>So to be open and not looking for immediate results.

0:28:34.640 --> 0:28:37.639
<v Speaker 6>Well, I think it's very similar when we restructure our

0:28:37.680 --> 0:28:41.920
<v Speaker 6>boundaries in families and we change you know, Hey, I

0:28:41.960 --> 0:28:44.120
<v Speaker 6>know every year I come home for Thanksgiving, but this

0:28:44.280 --> 0:28:47.120
<v Speaker 6>year I'm going to do this other thing. That new

0:28:47.160 --> 0:28:52.360
<v Speaker 6>information can be very problematic. Changing anything when people are

0:28:52.440 --> 0:28:55.640
<v Speaker 6>used to used to it being a certain way, is

0:28:55.800 --> 0:28:58.520
<v Speaker 6>you know, a problem, and there is some adjustment people

0:28:58.600 --> 0:29:02.040
<v Speaker 6>have to make on their end. We have the information

0:29:02.360 --> 0:29:05.160
<v Speaker 6>well before them, and so we're already adjusted and we're like,

0:29:05.240 --> 0:29:07.480
<v Speaker 6>what's the problem. Like, I just told you this thing

0:29:07.520 --> 0:29:09.440
<v Speaker 6>I've been thinking about for two years, why don't you

0:29:09.520 --> 0:29:13.000
<v Speaker 6>love it? And it's not to be received in that

0:29:13.080 --> 0:29:16.840
<v Speaker 6>way that people really do need some time to sort

0:29:16.840 --> 0:29:20.000
<v Speaker 6>of figure out what they feel about it and how

0:29:20.040 --> 0:29:20.960
<v Speaker 6>to show up with you.

0:29:21.880 --> 0:29:23.200
<v Speaker 3>Well, should we take some questions?

0:29:23.240 --> 0:29:25.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, let's go. I can't wait for her to drop

0:29:26.000 --> 0:29:27.120
<v Speaker 2>some more wisdom, you know.

0:29:28.120 --> 0:29:31.480
<v Speaker 5>Let's start with a caller. Our first caller is Lauren.

0:29:32.080 --> 0:29:35.520
<v Speaker 5>She says, Dear Chelsea. Last year, my partner of fourteen

0:29:35.640 --> 0:29:38.440
<v Speaker 5>years ended our relationship and moved out of our apartment.

0:29:38.800 --> 0:29:41.240
<v Speaker 5>It was an adjustment to take over full rent payments.

0:29:41.600 --> 0:29:43.400
<v Speaker 5>My parents offered to let me move in with them,

0:29:43.480 --> 0:29:45.120
<v Speaker 5>but I was determined to stay in my home and

0:29:45.160 --> 0:29:48.520
<v Speaker 5>maintain my independence. I've received my lease renewal and the

0:29:48.520 --> 0:29:51.400
<v Speaker 5>rent will increase by a whopping twelve percent. I've been

0:29:51.440 --> 0:29:54.080
<v Speaker 5>dipping into an inheritance left to me by my grandparents

0:29:54.120 --> 0:29:56.880
<v Speaker 5>to cover any shortages. There's not much inventory in my

0:29:56.960 --> 0:29:59.280
<v Speaker 5>area that's less than what I'm currently paying either, so

0:29:59.320 --> 0:30:01.960
<v Speaker 5>I can't move. I've renewed my lease, but made a

0:30:01.960 --> 0:30:04.160
<v Speaker 5>commitment to myself that this will be my last year

0:30:04.160 --> 0:30:06.840
<v Speaker 5>in this apartment, after which i'll temporarily move in with

0:30:06.840 --> 0:30:09.240
<v Speaker 5>my parents. This will allow me to pay down credit

0:30:09.320 --> 0:30:11.760
<v Speaker 5>card debt I accrued while my relationship was ending and

0:30:11.800 --> 0:30:14.920
<v Speaker 5>I became depressed and did some emotional overspending. I'll build

0:30:14.920 --> 0:30:18.560
<v Speaker 5>my savings and eventually begin looking for a more permanent home. However,

0:30:18.600 --> 0:30:20.920
<v Speaker 5>I'm afraid that moving back into my childhood bedroom at

0:30:20.960 --> 0:30:23.120
<v Speaker 5>thirty eight will tip me further into a depression that

0:30:23.160 --> 0:30:25.160
<v Speaker 5>I've been fighting my way out of for two years,

0:30:25.440 --> 0:30:27.800
<v Speaker 5>and I'm uncertain if my self esteem can take this hit.

0:30:28.280 --> 0:30:30.960
<v Speaker 5>I've felt shame in losing my relationship and struggling to

0:30:31.000 --> 0:30:34.040
<v Speaker 5>afford my own home and using my grandparents' money for rent.

0:30:34.520 --> 0:30:36.560
<v Speaker 5>That feeling will now be magnified by living in my

0:30:36.640 --> 0:30:39.640
<v Speaker 5>childhood bedroom, and I'm scared I'll be trapped. Plus, the

0:30:39.680 --> 0:30:42.360
<v Speaker 5>loss of independence is scary. How will I date as

0:30:42.400 --> 0:30:45.520
<v Speaker 5>an adult from my childhood bedroom. I'm truly grateful to

0:30:45.600 --> 0:30:47.840
<v Speaker 5>have the support from my family. However, I'm still finding

0:30:47.840 --> 0:30:50.040
<v Speaker 5>it tough as I prepare myself for the emotional toll

0:30:50.040 --> 0:30:52.240
<v Speaker 5>of leaving home and with it the chapter of my

0:30:52.280 --> 0:30:54.440
<v Speaker 5>life I spent with my partner and for losing some

0:30:54.560 --> 0:30:56.000
<v Speaker 5>independence in my parents' house.

0:30:56.600 --> 0:30:58.800
<v Speaker 3>Thank you both. I absolutely love this podcast.

0:30:58.840 --> 0:31:00.960
<v Speaker 5>Listening to your wise words of a fe to others

0:31:01.040 --> 0:31:02.720
<v Speaker 5>is getting me through this tough time of my own.

0:31:02.880 --> 0:31:05.680
<v Speaker 1>Lauren, Hi, Lauren, Hi, Hi.

0:31:05.640 --> 0:31:08.440
<v Speaker 4>Lauren Hilsey, Hi, Catherine Hi.

0:31:08.640 --> 0:31:11.080
<v Speaker 2>This is Nager Chuab. She's our special guest today. She's

0:31:11.120 --> 0:31:13.000
<v Speaker 2>a licensed therapist, so you're in good hands.

0:31:13.200 --> 0:31:15.240
<v Speaker 4>Hi o Hi, thanks so much.

0:31:15.560 --> 0:31:18.800
<v Speaker 2>Okay, so, first off, you have a year right left?

0:31:18.880 --> 0:31:20.320
<v Speaker 2>I mean to prepare for this move.

0:31:20.480 --> 0:31:22.600
<v Speaker 4>Correct, Yes, I now have a year.

0:31:22.960 --> 0:31:26.120
<v Speaker 2>Okay, So isn't there a possibility that within this year

0:31:26.360 --> 0:31:28.960
<v Speaker 2>you can figure out a different dynamic that won't make

0:31:29.000 --> 0:31:32.640
<v Speaker 2>you have all of these feelings like finding a roommate

0:31:32.720 --> 0:31:36.080
<v Speaker 2>to move in with or finding a different kind of

0:31:36.480 --> 0:31:38.080
<v Speaker 2>I know you said most of the apartments in your

0:31:38.080 --> 0:31:40.760
<v Speaker 2>area are the same price, but I mean you have

0:31:40.840 --> 0:31:43.400
<v Speaker 2>a year to kind of find another solution if moving

0:31:43.400 --> 0:31:46.239
<v Speaker 2>into your parents' house represents all of these kind of

0:31:46.240 --> 0:31:47.960
<v Speaker 2>misgivings you have about yourself.

0:31:48.320 --> 0:31:52.880
<v Speaker 4>Yes, yes, sire, And I'm considering the roommate option as well.

0:31:53.000 --> 0:31:55.680
<v Speaker 2>And possibly getting an additional job, Like what do you

0:31:55.680 --> 0:31:57.160
<v Speaker 2>do for a living? Do you have time to get

0:31:57.200 --> 0:31:59.240
<v Speaker 2>another job or something that you could do on the

0:31:59.240 --> 0:32:00.600
<v Speaker 2>weekends for ex income.

0:32:01.040 --> 0:32:03.680
<v Speaker 4>I work at an independent bookstore, and sometimes I have

0:32:03.760 --> 0:32:06.680
<v Speaker 4>to work on the weekends, and that's not always easy

0:32:06.680 --> 0:32:08.360
<v Speaker 4>for me to tell in advance, so it's hard to

0:32:08.360 --> 0:32:11.000
<v Speaker 4>schedule a second job. But I have thought about looking

0:32:11.000 --> 0:32:13.760
<v Speaker 4>into second jobs I can do from home, maybe that

0:32:13.800 --> 0:32:17.880
<v Speaker 4>aren't tied to a schedule, but you know, data entry, writing,

0:32:17.920 --> 0:32:18.720
<v Speaker 4>those kind of things.

0:32:19.160 --> 0:32:21.320
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean that sounds a lot better. Like I

0:32:21.360 --> 0:32:23.600
<v Speaker 2>would say, move into your parents if you were okay

0:32:23.640 --> 0:32:25.840
<v Speaker 2>with that, but you sound like you're definitely not okay

0:32:25.880 --> 0:32:28.960
<v Speaker 2>with that, And that has all of these separate meetings

0:32:29.000 --> 0:32:33.840
<v Speaker 2>to you. And figuring out this situation independently before you

0:32:33.920 --> 0:32:35.959
<v Speaker 2>have to move in with your parents and coming up

0:32:36.000 --> 0:32:38.360
<v Speaker 2>with solutions so that you don't have to move in

0:32:38.400 --> 0:32:40.280
<v Speaker 2>with your parents are going to serve you a lot

0:32:40.360 --> 0:32:43.520
<v Speaker 2>better than kind of folding into a situation that you're

0:32:43.520 --> 0:32:46.320
<v Speaker 2>not looking forward to Yeah.

0:32:46.160 --> 0:32:48.720
<v Speaker 4>I think you're right, And part of why I decided

0:32:48.760 --> 0:32:50.920
<v Speaker 4>to stay for one more year was trying to find,

0:32:51.080 --> 0:32:53.080
<v Speaker 4>you know, the fortitude in myself to make changes in

0:32:53.120 --> 0:32:55.320
<v Speaker 4>how I live, make changes to my budget, and see like,

0:32:55.400 --> 0:32:57.320
<v Speaker 4>exactly what can I do? What can I do in

0:32:57.360 --> 0:32:57.680
<v Speaker 4>a year?

0:32:58.320 --> 0:32:59.480
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? What do you think, Nedra?

0:33:00.520 --> 0:33:04.720
<v Speaker 6>You know, I wonder if you could reframe this from

0:33:05.040 --> 0:33:08.640
<v Speaker 6>moving into my childhood home to moving in with my

0:33:08.800 --> 0:33:14.000
<v Speaker 6>parents and reinventing that space talking to your parents about

0:33:14.040 --> 0:33:17.719
<v Speaker 6>what living with them as an adult looks like versus

0:33:17.880 --> 0:33:21.800
<v Speaker 6>living with them as you know, someone zero to eighteen.

0:33:22.440 --> 0:33:26.280
<v Speaker 6>I think this is a wonderful opportunity for you to

0:33:26.600 --> 0:33:31.240
<v Speaker 6>reposition yourself to be able to move out and maybe

0:33:31.280 --> 0:33:35.400
<v Speaker 6>stay out for a longer period of time. But this

0:33:35.440 --> 0:33:38.360
<v Speaker 6>sounds like a wonderful opportunity. I wonder if you could

0:33:38.440 --> 0:33:41.920
<v Speaker 6>reframe this really as a gift to be able to

0:33:42.000 --> 0:33:45.080
<v Speaker 6>have parents who have a space for you to move

0:33:45.160 --> 0:33:50.480
<v Speaker 6>into where you can revisit your finances and think about

0:33:50.560 --> 0:33:52.920
<v Speaker 6>how you want things to be in maybe five years

0:33:53.000 --> 0:33:54.520
<v Speaker 6>or three years or whatever.

0:33:54.200 --> 0:33:55.080
<v Speaker 1>The plan is.

0:33:55.200 --> 0:33:57.760
<v Speaker 6>But you know, if you keep thinking of this as like,

0:33:58.320 --> 0:34:02.080
<v Speaker 6>you know, little Lauren's bedroom where she had this, you know,

0:34:02.240 --> 0:34:05.520
<v Speaker 6>poster on the wall, it will be a terrible experience.

0:34:06.120 --> 0:34:08.439
<v Speaker 6>You are an adult, and I'm sure your apartment looks

0:34:08.480 --> 0:34:11.759
<v Speaker 6>a nice, lovely way and you can recreate that. You know,

0:34:11.840 --> 0:34:15.040
<v Speaker 6>look at some tiny home stuff on Penrish. You could

0:34:15.080 --> 0:34:20.360
<v Speaker 6>get really creative with this space and really maximize where

0:34:20.400 --> 0:34:24.640
<v Speaker 6>you are at this point. You'll have more more discretionary

0:34:24.719 --> 0:34:27.120
<v Speaker 6>income to hang out with your friends, you might be

0:34:27.200 --> 0:34:30.520
<v Speaker 6>able to do some of that frivolous spending that you

0:34:30.600 --> 0:34:33.320
<v Speaker 6>were talking about, and you can certainly buy as many

0:34:33.360 --> 0:34:36.600
<v Speaker 6>books as you like. So this is really to me,

0:34:36.880 --> 0:34:40.080
<v Speaker 6>it's like, will they take more people in this house,

0:34:41.440 --> 0:34:47.400
<v Speaker 6>because it's a wonderful opportunity to reposition yourself for a

0:34:47.440 --> 0:34:49.480
<v Speaker 6>better situation in the future.

0:34:49.920 --> 0:34:51.839
<v Speaker 5>Lauren, I'm going to tattle on you a little bit,

0:34:51.920 --> 0:34:53.719
<v Speaker 5>but this is something that came out when we were

0:34:53.719 --> 0:34:56.279
<v Speaker 5>having our sort of pre interview call. You know, I know,

0:34:56.320 --> 0:34:59.440
<v Speaker 5>the breakup happens like eighteen months ago or so, and

0:34:59.480 --> 0:35:02.640
<v Speaker 5>you're still in contact with your ex and like hanging out.

0:35:02.719 --> 0:35:04.359
<v Speaker 5>I know that's been sort of difficult for.

0:35:04.320 --> 0:35:08.040
<v Speaker 3>You guys and to me with that, and like having this.

0:35:08.040 --> 0:35:10.359
<v Speaker 5>Extra year to sort of make a decision about moving

0:35:10.400 --> 0:35:13.040
<v Speaker 5>in with your folks. It feels like maybe there's a

0:35:13.080 --> 0:35:16.560
<v Speaker 5>bit of like a things are moving a little bit slowly,

0:35:17.280 --> 0:35:19.920
<v Speaker 5>and I wonder, at Needra if you'd have some advice

0:35:20.040 --> 0:35:22.239
<v Speaker 5>as far as like boundaries there with the ex, if

0:35:22.280 --> 0:35:26.040
<v Speaker 5>it's okay to keep seeing him, if it's very painful

0:35:26.080 --> 0:35:29.160
<v Speaker 5>for them, or what are good sort of next steps

0:35:29.160 --> 0:35:29.600
<v Speaker 5>for Lauren.

0:35:31.120 --> 0:35:34.680
<v Speaker 6>Well, I think we think about life is like this

0:35:35.000 --> 0:35:37.960
<v Speaker 6>upward progression of stuff, and if we go back to

0:35:38.080 --> 0:35:40.680
<v Speaker 6>some period in life, it's like a disaster. It's like

0:35:40.800 --> 0:35:43.879
<v Speaker 6>go back to school, go back to my parents' house,

0:35:43.960 --> 0:35:47.840
<v Speaker 6>go back to my ex. When an actuality, maybe everything

0:35:47.960 --> 0:35:50.360
<v Speaker 6>is just kind of fluid and we are moving in

0:35:50.440 --> 0:35:53.120
<v Speaker 6>and out of situations, and maybe this is a time

0:35:53.200 --> 0:35:56.520
<v Speaker 6>with your ex where you need to evaluate how the

0:35:56.600 --> 0:36:01.040
<v Speaker 6>relationship that you're establishing with your ex now is adding

0:36:01.120 --> 0:36:03.600
<v Speaker 6>any value to your life or not. Is it putting

0:36:03.640 --> 0:36:05.960
<v Speaker 6>you more in this space of oh my gosh, we

0:36:06.000 --> 0:36:08.759
<v Speaker 6>should have been here with things, or is it like

0:36:08.840 --> 0:36:13.160
<v Speaker 6>this is wonderful companionship. So you know, it's not necessarily

0:36:13.280 --> 0:36:16.000
<v Speaker 6>bad to have a relationship with your ex, but what

0:36:16.120 --> 0:36:19.880
<v Speaker 6>is the meaning of the relationship, How is the relationship

0:36:20.040 --> 0:36:24.000
<v Speaker 6>impacting how you see yourself. Those are important things to

0:36:24.120 --> 0:36:27.520
<v Speaker 6>think about as you're continuing to connect with this person.

0:36:28.360 --> 0:36:32.600
<v Speaker 4>Yes, thank you. That all sounds like so many things

0:36:32.600 --> 0:36:35.120
<v Speaker 4>I need to think about. I think we've had blurred

0:36:35.360 --> 0:36:38.400
<v Speaker 4>lines over the nature of our relationship, him not wanting

0:36:38.480 --> 0:36:42.080
<v Speaker 4>to put a label on it, and having some of

0:36:42.120 --> 0:36:45.919
<v Speaker 4>his stuff still on my home. It definitely at times,

0:36:45.920 --> 0:36:49.600
<v Speaker 4>I'm not really sure what we're intending. So good things

0:36:49.640 --> 0:36:50.480
<v Speaker 4>to think about.

0:36:50.680 --> 0:36:52.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean all different and lots of different advice

0:36:52.960 --> 0:36:55.799
<v Speaker 2>to think about. I mean a lot of different perspectives,

0:36:55.920 --> 0:36:58.640
<v Speaker 2>or at least a couple of different perspectives. But do

0:36:58.680 --> 0:37:01.520
<v Speaker 2>you feel like relation to your ex that you guys

0:37:01.560 --> 0:37:04.240
<v Speaker 2>are in a do you feel like it's a healthy dynamic?

0:37:04.280 --> 0:37:08.200
<v Speaker 2>What you your communication with him and your relationship with

0:37:08.280 --> 0:37:09.480
<v Speaker 2>him as it stands today?

0:37:10.680 --> 0:37:13.440
<v Speaker 4>You know, I'm not sure. The last time we spoke,

0:37:13.920 --> 0:37:17.640
<v Speaker 4>he expressed a lot of self loathing on his part

0:37:17.719 --> 0:37:21.440
<v Speaker 4>for having and died the relationship and not knowing why,

0:37:21.800 --> 0:37:24.880
<v Speaker 4>and listening to him talk, I just kept thinking, you know,

0:37:24.960 --> 0:37:28.720
<v Speaker 4>like he's not in good working order to start up again.

0:37:29.000 --> 0:37:31.920
<v Speaker 4>You know, he needs to love himself and I want

0:37:32.000 --> 0:37:33.680
<v Speaker 4>him to do that. And it's you know, at times

0:37:33.719 --> 0:37:35.799
<v Speaker 4>I do feel selfish, like think, oh my gosh, he

0:37:35.920 --> 0:37:38.000
<v Speaker 4>you know, he's second guessing this, or he's not sure

0:37:38.040 --> 0:37:40.000
<v Speaker 4>why he did what he did. Maybe we'll go back.

0:37:40.480 --> 0:37:44.400
<v Speaker 4>But I do worry that he might be returning or

0:37:44.400 --> 0:37:46.520
<v Speaker 4>thinking about returning as a way to kind of boost

0:37:46.520 --> 0:37:48.520
<v Speaker 4>his self esteem and not have the guilt for ending

0:37:48.520 --> 0:37:49.359
<v Speaker 4>the relationship.

0:37:49.840 --> 0:37:53.080
<v Speaker 6>You know, I'm less concerned about what he's doing and

0:37:53.120 --> 0:37:55.920
<v Speaker 6>what you're choosing to do, Laurene. I wonder what do

0:37:55.960 --> 0:37:58.520
<v Speaker 6>you want in this dynamic? I hear a lot about

0:37:58.600 --> 0:38:01.600
<v Speaker 6>I think he's doing this and it's probably like this,

0:38:01.800 --> 0:38:03.960
<v Speaker 6>and it's like, well, this is your life. What type

0:38:03.960 --> 0:38:07.640
<v Speaker 6>of relationship do you want with a person if you're dating.

0:38:07.719 --> 0:38:10.439
<v Speaker 6>I don't know if you consider this dating, But if

0:38:10.440 --> 0:38:12.560
<v Speaker 6>you're dating a person, what do you.

0:38:12.640 --> 0:38:15.440
<v Speaker 1>Want that dynamic to look like? And is this it?

0:38:16.239 --> 0:38:19.680
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, thank you for reframing it that way. Yeah, right now,

0:38:19.680 --> 0:38:20.279
<v Speaker 4>it's not it.

0:38:20.680 --> 0:38:24.680
<v Speaker 6>So maybe this is just companionship for now, and whatever

0:38:24.760 --> 0:38:28.759
<v Speaker 6>his desire is for the relationship, it doesn't override what

0:38:28.800 --> 0:38:32.160
<v Speaker 6>your desire is for a relationship. So if you want

0:38:32.200 --> 0:38:34.520
<v Speaker 6>to go to the movies with this fellow, that's fine,

0:38:35.000 --> 0:38:38.040
<v Speaker 6>But what you're looking for is not what he's offering.

0:38:38.120 --> 0:38:41.320
<v Speaker 6>So just being clear about that can be really helpful.

0:38:41.360 --> 0:38:44.200
<v Speaker 6>It can help you draw those boundaries of I need

0:38:44.239 --> 0:38:46.080
<v Speaker 6>you to get your stuff out of my apartment in

0:38:46.120 --> 0:38:50.759
<v Speaker 6>thirty days, right, because you know, if I'm just if

0:38:50.760 --> 0:38:54.840
<v Speaker 6>we're just companions and we're spending time together, maybe in

0:38:54.880 --> 0:38:57.840
<v Speaker 6>that type of relationship, I don't allow myself to be

0:38:57.880 --> 0:38:59.000
<v Speaker 6>a storage facility.

0:38:59.760 --> 0:39:03.160
<v Speaker 1>Right, So you think of what that looks like.

0:39:03.160 --> 0:39:06.400
<v Speaker 6>Like, Okay, so we have some sort of relationship, but

0:39:06.520 --> 0:39:10.919
<v Speaker 6>what would the boundaries for this type of relationship be, right?

0:39:11.400 --> 0:39:13.279
<v Speaker 4>We haven't really put boundaries on it at all, and

0:39:14.120 --> 0:39:16.040
<v Speaker 4>definitely need it definitely.

0:39:16.640 --> 0:39:16.920
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

0:39:17.000 --> 0:39:19.160
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it sounds like you definitely need to implement some

0:39:19.200 --> 0:39:21.840
<v Speaker 2>boundaries in all of your life, you know, like to

0:39:21.960 --> 0:39:24.120
<v Speaker 2>decide what you want to do, Like if you're going

0:39:24.200 --> 0:39:26.520
<v Speaker 2>to go move in with your parents, commit to making

0:39:26.560 --> 0:39:29.720
<v Speaker 2>that a really positive situation. And if you're not going

0:39:29.760 --> 0:39:32.200
<v Speaker 2>to commit to figuring out a way to make that

0:39:32.280 --> 0:39:35.320
<v Speaker 2>a really positive situation, because you're in a gray zone.

0:39:35.360 --> 0:39:37.600
<v Speaker 2>So hopefully some of this stuff that we've talked about

0:39:37.600 --> 0:39:38.440
<v Speaker 2>today will help you.

0:39:39.400 --> 0:39:41.600
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, it is, it is so helpful. Thank you all

0:39:41.600 --> 0:39:43.400
<v Speaker 4>three of you. This is this is really wonderful.

0:39:43.840 --> 0:39:45.320
<v Speaker 2>Okay, well great, Well.

0:39:45.440 --> 0:39:47.239
<v Speaker 3>Keep us posted on what happens with you.

0:39:47.280 --> 0:39:50.000
<v Speaker 2>Okay, Lauren, pick up drama free read some There's some

0:39:50.000 --> 0:39:51.920
<v Speaker 2>stuff there that will apply to you for sure.

0:39:52.080 --> 0:39:53.120
<v Speaker 3>Oh we'll do all.

0:39:53.120 --> 0:39:56.359
<v Speaker 5>Right, Thanks Lauren, Thank you, Lauren, thanks so much. Our

0:39:56.440 --> 0:39:58.320
<v Speaker 5>next email and this is just an email, so he

0:39:58.360 --> 0:40:01.720
<v Speaker 5>won't join us. But this comes for from Chris. He says,

0:40:02.120 --> 0:40:04.280
<v Speaker 5>I'm a gay man in my early thirties, the youngest

0:40:04.280 --> 0:40:06.640
<v Speaker 5>of three, and this involves my sister, the middle child,

0:40:06.680 --> 0:40:10.640
<v Speaker 5>who's four years older. Almost ten years ago, after graduating college,

0:40:10.680 --> 0:40:13.799
<v Speaker 5>I enrolled in graduate school. My older sister, after doing

0:40:13.840 --> 0:40:16.719
<v Speaker 5>nothing for a few years in her twenties, enrolled two.

0:40:16.800 --> 0:40:18.360
<v Speaker 5>I initially thought it would be great to have her

0:40:18.440 --> 0:40:20.200
<v Speaker 5>with me during what was sure to be a stressful

0:40:20.200 --> 0:40:22.719
<v Speaker 5>few years, and I quickly made a tight knit group

0:40:22.760 --> 0:40:25.440
<v Speaker 5>of friends, three guys and three girls. Toward the end

0:40:25.520 --> 0:40:28.480
<v Speaker 5>of grad school, my sister became increasingly close to my

0:40:28.560 --> 0:40:31.239
<v Speaker 5>friend group, despite having made her own friends during our

0:40:31.280 --> 0:40:34.480
<v Speaker 5>time in school. Eventually, I finished grad school and moved

0:40:34.520 --> 0:40:36.799
<v Speaker 5>to a big, fun city one hour north. I was

0:40:36.800 --> 0:40:39.160
<v Speaker 5>excited for a fresh start to be whoever I wanted,

0:40:39.480 --> 0:40:41.719
<v Speaker 5>make gay friends and live as an outgay man for

0:40:41.760 --> 0:40:44.319
<v Speaker 5>the first time in my life. Six months later, my

0:40:44.360 --> 0:40:47.560
<v Speaker 5>sister moved to the same city as me. I quickly

0:40:47.600 --> 0:40:49.400
<v Speaker 5>made gay friends and made up for the fun I

0:40:49.440 --> 0:40:52.040
<v Speaker 5>didn't have while in grad school. Before I knew it,

0:40:52.080 --> 0:40:54.320
<v Speaker 5>I had so many gay friends and was having a blast.

0:40:54.640 --> 0:40:57.480
<v Speaker 5>But soon my closest friends were becoming my sister's close friends.

0:40:57.960 --> 0:41:00.000
<v Speaker 5>I realized she would meet them in passing and then

0:41:00.200 --> 0:41:01.480
<v Speaker 5>DM them to hang out.

0:41:02.080 --> 0:41:03.239
<v Speaker 3>Now, while this might not have.

0:41:03.200 --> 0:41:07.040
<v Speaker 5>Been inherently wrong, it felt suffocating to me. Soon I'd

0:41:07.080 --> 0:41:09.719
<v Speaker 5>show up to gay friends' houses and she'd already be there.

0:41:10.040 --> 0:41:12.400
<v Speaker 5>She'd cook dinner for my friends when I wasn't around,

0:41:12.640 --> 0:41:14.239
<v Speaker 5>and she even once went on a trip with a

0:41:14.239 --> 0:41:16.160
<v Speaker 5>few of my friends and I didn't find out about

0:41:16.160 --> 0:41:19.040
<v Speaker 5>it until later. Shouldn't she be busy making her own

0:41:19.080 --> 0:41:21.840
<v Speaker 5>friends and having her own life. I know the importance

0:41:21.840 --> 0:41:24.080
<v Speaker 5>of family and how much you talk about sisterly love.

0:41:24.440 --> 0:41:26.640
<v Speaker 5>I love my sister always, but I do not think that,

0:41:26.760 --> 0:41:29.279
<v Speaker 5>just because we're siblings, that my sister has allowed carte

0:41:29.280 --> 0:41:32.439
<v Speaker 5>blanche access to my life, especially when I've expressed wanting

0:41:32.480 --> 0:41:34.919
<v Speaker 5>boundaries to have some things for myself. Am I wrong

0:41:34.920 --> 0:41:36.920
<v Speaker 5>for feeling this way, Chris.

0:41:36.800 --> 0:41:38.600
<v Speaker 2>I don't know it. Does that sound like enmeshment?

0:41:38.920 --> 0:41:42.520
<v Speaker 1>That's right, It definitely sounds like immeshment.

0:41:42.640 --> 0:41:46.840
<v Speaker 6>And I'm thinking here that Chris could do a better

0:41:46.960 --> 0:41:50.640
<v Speaker 6>job of not introducing his sister to his friends. There

0:41:50.680 --> 0:41:53.719
<v Speaker 6>are some things, it sounds like that need to be private,

0:41:54.160 --> 0:41:58.480
<v Speaker 6>because if he's expressed that I want my friends to

0:41:58.520 --> 0:42:01.040
<v Speaker 6>be my friends, please do not call them, please do not.

0:42:02.320 --> 0:42:05.279
<v Speaker 6>There is something sacred that he needs to keep in

0:42:05.360 --> 0:42:09.880
<v Speaker 6>place that doesn't involve her, because she's not really honoring

0:42:09.960 --> 0:42:14.239
<v Speaker 6>this request to have these you know, separate relationships or

0:42:14.239 --> 0:42:16.719
<v Speaker 6>you go find your own people. Doesn't sound like she's

0:42:16.760 --> 0:42:19.719
<v Speaker 6>going to do that from city to city, from you know,

0:42:20.160 --> 0:42:23.719
<v Speaker 6>life event to life event. She's really latching one. And

0:42:23.800 --> 0:42:26.640
<v Speaker 6>so he will have to be the person to say,

0:42:27.160 --> 0:42:29.839
<v Speaker 6>I will not invite you to this thing. I will

0:42:29.840 --> 0:42:33.960
<v Speaker 6>not introduce you to these people, so she cannot continue

0:42:34.000 --> 0:42:37.040
<v Speaker 6>to have these relationships. You know, I think it could

0:42:37.040 --> 0:42:39.880
<v Speaker 6>be very hard for your friends to meet your sister,

0:42:39.960 --> 0:42:43.600
<v Speaker 6>and she's a very lovely person and to say to her, hey,

0:42:43.640 --> 0:42:47.279
<v Speaker 6>we can't talk anymore because i'm your brother's friend, Right,

0:42:48.680 --> 0:42:51.919
<v Speaker 6>That's a really hard thing to say. But it might

0:42:52.000 --> 0:42:55.760
<v Speaker 6>be something that he needs to talk about with everyone

0:42:55.800 --> 0:42:58.160
<v Speaker 6>in his life that Hey, I'm in this situation with

0:42:58.239 --> 0:43:00.640
<v Speaker 6>my sister. I love her dearly, but I'm really trying

0:43:00.640 --> 0:43:02.960
<v Speaker 6>to help her meet her own people. She has this

0:43:03.120 --> 0:43:06.799
<v Speaker 6>history of really latching on to my people. So if

0:43:06.800 --> 0:43:09.080
<v Speaker 6>she DMS you, you could just let her know that

0:43:09.120 --> 0:43:13.040
<v Speaker 6>we've had this conversation. Sometimes with our boundaries, we like

0:43:13.120 --> 0:43:16.600
<v Speaker 6>to say things once and give people the chance to

0:43:16.680 --> 0:43:18.839
<v Speaker 6>do something. And then after we say it once and

0:43:18.880 --> 0:43:21.799
<v Speaker 6>we say it twice, we have to do something about it.

0:43:21.840 --> 0:43:24.880
<v Speaker 6>We have to start to issue some sort of consequences.

0:43:25.160 --> 0:43:30.360
<v Speaker 6>The consequence of this would be eliminating her from social things,

0:43:30.360 --> 0:43:32.600
<v Speaker 6>so she no longer has that opportunity.

0:43:33.360 --> 0:43:33.560
<v Speaker 4>You know.

0:43:33.880 --> 0:43:36.879
<v Speaker 6>Also, in a very loving way, you could, you know, hey,

0:43:37.239 --> 0:43:38.680
<v Speaker 6>have you looked into book clubs?

0:43:38.760 --> 0:43:38.960
<v Speaker 5>Hey?

0:43:39.120 --> 0:43:42.000
<v Speaker 6>You know, I work with this lady who's really cool.

0:43:42.000 --> 0:43:45.240
<v Speaker 6>It says like you all would be wonderful friends. Helping

0:43:45.280 --> 0:43:48.680
<v Speaker 6>her meet some people could be helpful, But ultimately you

0:43:48.760 --> 0:43:51.279
<v Speaker 6>will have to take things into your own hands where

0:43:51.280 --> 0:43:55.000
<v Speaker 6>you say I can't even include you anymore, because I

0:43:55.080 --> 0:43:58.400
<v Speaker 6>have learned the hard way over and over that you

0:43:58.520 --> 0:44:01.200
<v Speaker 6>will start to absorb these things.

0:44:01.200 --> 0:44:02.640
<v Speaker 1>I'm doing as your own.

0:44:03.000 --> 0:44:06.719
<v Speaker 2>But this woman, the sister, sounds like she has absolutely

0:44:06.719 --> 0:44:11.200
<v Speaker 2>no boundaries. I mean she's following him from city to city,

0:44:11.320 --> 0:44:13.560
<v Speaker 2>is hanging out with his friends. I mean, she's not.

0:44:13.480 --> 0:44:14.120
<v Speaker 1>Going to take that.

0:44:14.160 --> 0:44:17.920
<v Speaker 2>Well. Obviously, we already discussed people having boundaries set that

0:44:18.239 --> 0:44:20.879
<v Speaker 2>haven't had them before and their bad reaction to them.

0:44:21.239 --> 0:44:23.920
<v Speaker 2>So how would you deal with someone who's going to

0:44:24.040 --> 0:44:27.920
<v Speaker 2>have a hostile reaction to him trying to set a boundary,

0:44:28.040 --> 0:44:30.279
<v Speaker 2>because I would disagree. I don't think it's up to

0:44:30.880 --> 0:44:32.880
<v Speaker 2>him to talk to his friends about it. Like this

0:44:32.960 --> 0:44:35.520
<v Speaker 2>is a her issue, you know, Like I have a

0:44:35.560 --> 0:44:37.640
<v Speaker 2>lot of friends that are just nice enough to my

0:44:37.760 --> 0:44:40.000
<v Speaker 2>family that they would hang out with them as a favor.

0:44:40.360 --> 0:44:42.600
<v Speaker 2>So like he has to go around and basically tell

0:44:42.640 --> 0:44:44.440
<v Speaker 2>all these people to stop doing it. I mean, I

0:44:44.440 --> 0:44:47.680
<v Speaker 2>feel like it's a her problem, not is his friend's problem.

0:44:48.680 --> 0:44:51.520
<v Speaker 1>Well, I agree with you. I think it's her problem.

0:44:51.560 --> 0:44:55.080
<v Speaker 6>But I think if he has spoken to her, he

0:44:55.160 --> 0:44:58.680
<v Speaker 6>may want to try something different. Speaking to the friends

0:44:58.719 --> 0:45:02.080
<v Speaker 6>is just one way to to address it, and other

0:45:02.120 --> 0:45:04.719
<v Speaker 6>people may not feel comfortable set in that boundary. That's

0:45:04.719 --> 0:45:07.160
<v Speaker 6>why I say a lot of it will be not

0:45:07.400 --> 0:45:12.000
<v Speaker 6>including his sister in on certain information or including her

0:45:12.400 --> 0:45:15.640
<v Speaker 6>in these friend gatherings and social events where she has

0:45:15.680 --> 0:45:19.280
<v Speaker 6>the opportunity to latch on to other people. She can't

0:45:19.320 --> 0:45:23.080
<v Speaker 6>DM anyone that she doesn't know about, she can't invite

0:45:23.120 --> 0:45:27.000
<v Speaker 6>people on vacation if she's never met them, and it

0:45:27.040 --> 0:45:30.880
<v Speaker 6>can be known that I will not mix my friends

0:45:30.960 --> 0:45:35.400
<v Speaker 6>with you anymore. And she is entitled to have whatever reaction.

0:45:35.600 --> 0:45:39.000
<v Speaker 6>But it sounds like, you know, the letter writer here

0:45:39.080 --> 0:45:41.879
<v Speaker 6>has a really big, important reaction as well. I meant

0:45:42.520 --> 0:45:45.640
<v Speaker 6>the letter was written to say, I'm having this really

0:45:45.719 --> 0:45:49.680
<v Speaker 6>big issue, so she can have whatever response she's going

0:45:49.760 --> 0:45:52.239
<v Speaker 6>to have, and I think the execution of it is,

0:45:52.840 --> 0:45:55.840
<v Speaker 6>I have to exclude you from certain things as a

0:45:55.920 --> 0:45:59.760
<v Speaker 6>consequence of you not honoring the boundary. Because the solution

0:46:00.280 --> 0:46:02.480
<v Speaker 6>is not for her to start to do these things

0:46:02.520 --> 0:46:05.840
<v Speaker 6>because she hasn't done them. She has very poor boundaries.

0:46:05.920 --> 0:46:09.759
<v Speaker 6>It is not really anyone's job to fix that, but

0:46:09.880 --> 0:46:13.239
<v Speaker 6>it is, you know, perhaps his job to make sure

0:46:13.239 --> 0:46:14.880
<v Speaker 6>that his boundary is honored.

0:46:15.320 --> 0:46:17.200
<v Speaker 5>I feel like, also if you tell your friends, like

0:46:17.600 --> 0:46:19.560
<v Speaker 5>if you do meet my sister, like she's a little

0:46:19.560 --> 0:46:21.359
<v Speaker 5>bit clinging, she like tries to hang out with all

0:46:21.360 --> 0:46:22.879
<v Speaker 5>my friends and sort of like with an eye roll,

0:46:23.080 --> 0:46:25.560
<v Speaker 5>they'll they'll kind of get the gest right.

0:46:25.520 --> 0:46:26.640
<v Speaker 1>They won't want to hang out with her.

0:46:26.680 --> 0:46:29.160
<v Speaker 2>I think, well, yeah, I mean, but it's I feel

0:46:29.160 --> 0:46:31.000
<v Speaker 2>like the issue is her. You know, she used to

0:46:31.040 --> 0:46:34.120
<v Speaker 2>like cultivate her own friendships and her own relationships. Yeah,

0:46:34.120 --> 0:46:36.160
<v Speaker 2>I mean, And it's hard to hear from a family member.

0:46:36.200 --> 0:46:38.480
<v Speaker 2>I don't want you around all the time, you know, right,

0:46:38.520 --> 0:46:40.680
<v Speaker 2>So it's like I just am thinking about like what

0:46:40.719 --> 0:46:42.799
<v Speaker 2>it would feel like, you know. She thinks, probably like, oh,

0:46:42.800 --> 0:46:44.880
<v Speaker 2>this is great. My brother and I have all the

0:46:44.880 --> 0:46:48.080
<v Speaker 2>same friends. We're super close, we do everything together. His

0:46:48.120 --> 0:46:50.400
<v Speaker 2>friends are my friends. So it's gonna be like a

0:46:50.560 --> 0:46:53.840
<v Speaker 2>real loud thud when she finds out that's not the case.

0:46:54.360 --> 0:46:57.120
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, but yeah, Well, let's take a quick break and

0:46:57.200 --> 0:46:59.440
<v Speaker 5>we'll come back with a question to wrap up.

0:46:59.640 --> 0:47:01.520
<v Speaker 2>Okay, So we'll take a break and we'll be right

0:47:01.600 --> 0:47:03.160
<v Speaker 2>back to wrap up with Nedra.

0:47:07.920 --> 0:47:10.319
<v Speaker 5>And we're back, and we're back, and I have one

0:47:10.400 --> 0:47:13.600
<v Speaker 5>last quick caller for us. So Allison is calling in.

0:47:13.960 --> 0:47:18.120
<v Speaker 5>She says, Dear Chelsea, I'm adopted. I found my birth

0:47:18.160 --> 0:47:20.399
<v Speaker 5>mother more than twenty five years ago, and my birth

0:47:20.440 --> 0:47:23.319
<v Speaker 5>father at the same time. Over the past twenty five

0:47:23.360 --> 0:47:26.200
<v Speaker 5>plus years, I've built great relationships with my birth mother,

0:47:26.440 --> 0:47:30.279
<v Speaker 5>my half sister, adopted sister, cousins, etc. I've enjoyed those

0:47:30.320 --> 0:47:33.520
<v Speaker 5>relationships immensely. I met my birth father once and have

0:47:33.600 --> 0:47:36.920
<v Speaker 5>no relationship with him. My question is do I approach

0:47:37.040 --> 0:47:40.560
<v Speaker 5>my four half brothers on his side, his sons, who

0:47:40.640 --> 0:47:43.399
<v Speaker 5>he's told me have no idea I exist, and let

0:47:43.440 --> 0:47:45.520
<v Speaker 5>them know they have a half sister out here before

0:47:45.760 --> 0:47:48.680
<v Speaker 5>they or I start dying. And we entirely missed the

0:47:48.760 --> 0:47:51.880
<v Speaker 5>chance to meet. My adopted sister found her birth family

0:47:51.920 --> 0:47:54.560
<v Speaker 5>and is loving having two new brothers. She's very encouraging

0:47:54.600 --> 0:47:56.359
<v Speaker 5>of me to reach out to these people. But I'm

0:47:56.400 --> 0:47:59.000
<v Speaker 5>on the fence. What do you two think? Should this

0:47:59.040 --> 0:48:01.040
<v Speaker 5>family secret blow up or stay dormant?

0:48:01.800 --> 0:48:03.600
<v Speaker 2>Allison, That's a tough one.

0:48:03.760 --> 0:48:04.560
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

0:48:04.680 --> 0:48:07.759
<v Speaker 5>The other thing that she mentioned is they all live

0:48:07.840 --> 0:48:09.799
<v Speaker 5>kind of in the same area and she's worried about

0:48:09.840 --> 0:48:13.239
<v Speaker 5>her kids and their kids like meeting and volume lo.

0:48:14.680 --> 0:48:17.960
<v Speaker 2>Hi, Hi, Hi, Alison? How are you? Oh?

0:48:18.000 --> 0:48:18.200
<v Speaker 6>Wow?

0:48:18.280 --> 0:48:19.440
<v Speaker 7>Thank you, Chelsea, how are you?

0:48:19.800 --> 0:48:22.480
<v Speaker 2>I'm great. This is Nedra towab our special guest today.

0:48:23.040 --> 0:48:25.759
<v Speaker 2>So you've discovered some of your family members and not

0:48:25.840 --> 0:48:28.240
<v Speaker 2>all of your family members CORP.

0:48:28.480 --> 0:48:31.720
<v Speaker 7>I've known my birth mother and father for thirty years.

0:48:32.000 --> 0:48:34.239
<v Speaker 7>I've had a relationship with my birth mother and that

0:48:34.360 --> 0:48:36.919
<v Speaker 7>side of the family all this time. I have never

0:48:36.960 --> 0:48:39.279
<v Speaker 7>had a relationship with my birth father, and he has

0:48:39.440 --> 0:48:42.680
<v Speaker 7>four sons whom I have never met, nor do I

0:48:42.719 --> 0:48:43.799
<v Speaker 7>believe they know about me.

0:48:44.120 --> 0:48:46.719
<v Speaker 2>Okay, what do you think ndra about this?

0:48:47.600 --> 0:48:50.080
<v Speaker 1>I have a question here, who's secret is this?

0:48:51.160 --> 0:48:53.280
<v Speaker 7>It would be my birth father's secret.

0:48:54.080 --> 0:48:58.160
<v Speaker 6>Okay, why do you feel the responsibility to keep someone

0:48:58.160 --> 0:48:59.880
<v Speaker 6>else's secret?

0:49:00.160 --> 0:49:03.239
<v Speaker 7>Is a very fair question, And I don't know. My

0:49:03.280 --> 0:49:07.560
<v Speaker 7>grandmother who raised me, basically said she was very old school,

0:49:07.600 --> 0:49:10.080
<v Speaker 7>and she's like, don't you ever embarrass him by coming

0:49:10.120 --> 0:49:13.600
<v Speaker 7>out and you know, telling his kids about you. But

0:49:13.960 --> 0:49:17.920
<v Speaker 7>my other my adopted sister, has met her family, and

0:49:17.920 --> 0:49:20.960
<v Speaker 7>she's like, who cares. He's an old Like who cares?

0:49:21.239 --> 0:49:23.279
<v Speaker 7>Why do you care so much? And I don't. I

0:49:23.280 --> 0:49:26.319
<v Speaker 7>don't know, I shouldn't, I suppose, but I'm here to

0:49:26.360 --> 0:49:27.799
<v Speaker 7>hear your feedback, so let me know.

0:49:28.719 --> 0:49:32.160
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, it sounds like a lot of shame management, Like

0:49:32.520 --> 0:49:37.239
<v Speaker 6>I'm I'm going to manage his shame by not allowing

0:49:37.320 --> 0:49:39.880
<v Speaker 6>this thing to come out. That would make him feel

0:49:39.920 --> 0:49:42.400
<v Speaker 6>some sort of way and you know, be put in

0:49:42.480 --> 0:49:46.959
<v Speaker 6>position to have certain conversations and confrontations and this sort

0:49:47.000 --> 0:49:49.840
<v Speaker 6>of thing. So I will try to make him feel

0:49:49.880 --> 0:49:54.000
<v Speaker 6>comfortable by keeping this secret even though it's not my secret.

0:49:54.400 --> 0:49:55.600
<v Speaker 7>Yep. That about sums it up.

0:49:55.880 --> 0:49:59.080
<v Speaker 2>And also you can easily just reach out to them

0:49:59.160 --> 0:50:01.680
<v Speaker 2>and like leave the ball in their court. You know,

0:50:01.920 --> 0:50:04.840
<v Speaker 2>you're reaching out to them, you give them the information,

0:50:05.120 --> 0:50:08.719
<v Speaker 2>I'm your half sister, this is what happened, and then

0:50:08.719 --> 0:50:11.759
<v Speaker 2>you're covering both. I live in the same community, right,

0:50:11.880 --> 0:50:14.040
<v Speaker 2>is it the same town, same community.

0:50:14.000 --> 0:50:15.680
<v Speaker 7>A northern California fish.

0:50:15.800 --> 0:50:18.920
<v Speaker 2>Yes, you all live in northern California.

0:50:19.160 --> 0:50:19.560
<v Speaker 7>We do.

0:50:19.800 --> 0:50:23.040
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So okay, I live in this area. And it's

0:50:23.080 --> 0:50:25.160
<v Speaker 2>totally up to you if you guys, because that way,

0:50:25.200 --> 0:50:27.520
<v Speaker 2>you're kind of accomplishing all of the things you need

0:50:27.560 --> 0:50:30.840
<v Speaker 2>to accomplish. You're not holding anyone's secret, you're not managing

0:50:30.840 --> 0:50:34.200
<v Speaker 2>anyone's shame, and you're doing outreach, you know, and actually

0:50:35.040 --> 0:50:37.359
<v Speaker 2>taking a step towards meeting them. And then it's in

0:50:37.400 --> 0:50:39.560
<v Speaker 2>their court if they want to meet you. You know,

0:50:39.600 --> 0:50:42.920
<v Speaker 2>you don't want to force that on anybody. If they're interested, great,

0:50:42.960 --> 0:50:45.719
<v Speaker 2>and if they're not interested. Okay, well you tried, right.

0:50:46.160 --> 0:50:49.040
<v Speaker 2>I mean, there's no harm, no foul really, and I agree.

0:50:49.320 --> 0:50:51.560
<v Speaker 2>I mean, who cares about your birth father and his

0:50:51.600 --> 0:50:54.120
<v Speaker 2>feelings like that? You have your own life and this

0:50:54.239 --> 0:50:54.960
<v Speaker 2>is your decision.

0:50:55.400 --> 0:50:57.440
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, And it sounds like you owe him very little,

0:50:57.640 --> 0:51:00.160
<v Speaker 5>like he seems like maybe he was a sperm donor basically,

0:51:00.239 --> 0:51:06.160
<v Speaker 5>and you know here are yeah, exactly exactly. So I

0:51:06.200 --> 0:51:07.319
<v Speaker 5>don't think you owe him much.

0:51:08.200 --> 0:51:10.240
<v Speaker 7>Do I give him a chance to tell them ahead

0:51:10.400 --> 0:51:12.680
<v Speaker 7>by letting this other cousin know that this is my

0:51:12.760 --> 0:51:14.960
<v Speaker 7>plan in like thirty days, I'm going to come out

0:51:15.000 --> 0:51:17.120
<v Speaker 7>and reach out to them and give him the chance

0:51:17.160 --> 0:51:19.520
<v Speaker 7>to come clean ahead of time. Or do I just

0:51:19.719 --> 0:51:21.880
<v Speaker 7>lay it up and let the chips fall where they may.

0:51:22.120 --> 0:51:26.480
<v Speaker 6>Well, he's had thirty years to tell them, true, that's

0:51:26.520 --> 0:51:28.799
<v Speaker 6>a very long time. I don't know if he needs

0:51:28.800 --> 0:51:30.520
<v Speaker 6>thirty more days understood.

0:51:30.880 --> 0:51:33.879
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's like you don't really owe him anything. That's

0:51:33.880 --> 0:51:34.800
<v Speaker 2>another courtesy.

0:51:35.160 --> 0:51:36.840
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, I know.

0:51:36.920 --> 0:51:39.560
<v Speaker 7>It's just so tied up in this whole, like, don't

0:51:39.600 --> 0:51:43.400
<v Speaker 7>embarrass him, Like I don't know why he would be embarrassed.

0:51:43.400 --> 0:51:46.920
<v Speaker 7>It was a mistake thirty years or fifty seven years ago.

0:51:46.800 --> 0:51:50.520
<v Speaker 2>Now, Yeah, and there's not a lot of time. I

0:51:50.520 --> 0:51:53.320
<v Speaker 2>mean there's I don't sorry, it just sounds so morbid.

0:51:53.400 --> 0:51:54.919
<v Speaker 2>It's not that there's not a lot of time left,

0:51:54.920 --> 0:51:57.279
<v Speaker 2>but like enough time has gone by, you know, like

0:51:58.239 --> 0:52:02.760
<v Speaker 2>sure to avoid it. And you're saying that your grandmother

0:52:02.880 --> 0:52:05.399
<v Speaker 2>said that to you, you know, don't embarrass him. And

0:52:05.560 --> 0:52:08.520
<v Speaker 2>there always sentences that some adult has said to us

0:52:08.560 --> 0:52:10.600
<v Speaker 2>that stick with us for the rest of our lives,

0:52:10.840 --> 0:52:13.960
<v Speaker 2>that hold such little meaning. It's in a moment where

0:52:14.000 --> 0:52:16.279
<v Speaker 2>they're saying something and sometimes they don't even know what

0:52:16.320 --> 0:52:19.040
<v Speaker 2>they've said, or they'd have no idea how hurtful what

0:52:19.080 --> 0:52:21.360
<v Speaker 2>they've said is. I can think of a couple of

0:52:21.400 --> 0:52:23.560
<v Speaker 2>sentences my father said to me where I was like,

0:52:23.600 --> 0:52:26.359
<v Speaker 2>I will never ever forget those two sentences. And I

0:52:26.400 --> 0:52:28.200
<v Speaker 2>know he would probably want to take that back if

0:52:28.239 --> 0:52:31.160
<v Speaker 2>he could, so I wouldn't put so much value in

0:52:31.239 --> 0:52:33.280
<v Speaker 2>what someone said to you about another person.

0:52:34.600 --> 0:52:39.160
<v Speaker 6>And if your grandmother could speak now, she might have

0:52:39.280 --> 0:52:42.520
<v Speaker 6>something different to say about the situation. I mean she

0:52:42.760 --> 0:52:47.480
<v Speaker 6>spoke from a place of being highly concerned about him

0:52:47.520 --> 0:52:49.000
<v Speaker 6>and less concerned about you.

0:52:49.400 --> 0:52:50.440
<v Speaker 1>And seeing how.

0:52:50.280 --> 0:52:53.320
<v Speaker 6>You've struggled with this, probably over the last thirty years

0:52:53.400 --> 0:52:56.040
<v Speaker 6>I think is you know, it's fair to say that

0:52:56.800 --> 0:53:00.799
<v Speaker 6>perhaps she misspoke and your loyalty has been to her,

0:53:01.080 --> 0:53:07.840
<v Speaker 6>But is she still alive? No? Okay, So that loyalty

0:53:07.920 --> 0:53:10.600
<v Speaker 6>that you had with her, you know, it sounds like

0:53:10.600 --> 0:53:14.719
<v Speaker 6>you've transferred it to your dad and you haven't even

0:53:14.760 --> 0:53:16.560
<v Speaker 6>talked to him about this for him to say that

0:53:16.600 --> 0:53:19.480
<v Speaker 6>there's any embarrassment or you know, any of these things

0:53:19.520 --> 0:53:22.600
<v Speaker 6>that she assumes that he might feel. So it's you know,

0:53:22.640 --> 0:53:25.680
<v Speaker 6>it's a lot of hearsay, and sometimes this is the

0:53:25.760 --> 0:53:29.160
<v Speaker 6>thing that's needed to break situations open. It might explain

0:53:29.200 --> 0:53:31.440
<v Speaker 6>a lot about who he is to his other children,

0:53:31.600 --> 0:53:36.560
<v Speaker 6>like who knows. So I don't know if keeping this

0:53:36.760 --> 0:53:39.320
<v Speaker 6>secret is something.

0:53:39.000 --> 0:53:40.239
<v Speaker 1>That will feel good to you.

0:53:40.840 --> 0:53:43.560
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, I love what you said about you know, she

0:53:43.680 --> 0:53:45.600
<v Speaker 5>might have something different to say now because it was

0:53:45.600 --> 0:53:48.880
<v Speaker 5>also probably a very different time culturally absolute when she

0:53:49.040 --> 0:53:51.000
<v Speaker 5>said that, right, it was like back then it was

0:53:51.040 --> 0:53:53.799
<v Speaker 5>this big, you know, shameful secret if you had a

0:53:53.920 --> 0:53:55.800
<v Speaker 5>child out quote unquote out of wedlock.

0:53:55.880 --> 0:53:57.279
<v Speaker 3>But you know, things are different now.

0:53:57.800 --> 0:54:01.920
<v Speaker 7>Yeah, all right, all right, ladies, Okay, I guess I'm

0:54:01.960 --> 0:54:02.880
<v Speaker 7>taking a plunge.

0:54:03.120 --> 0:54:05.239
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, lady, go for it. Report back. Let us know

0:54:05.320 --> 0:54:08.160
<v Speaker 2>how that works out. Okay, well, thank you so much

0:54:08.160 --> 0:54:10.800
<v Speaker 2>for joining us. Thank you for all these wisdom pieces.

0:54:10.840 --> 0:54:13.280
<v Speaker 2>I loved your book. I hope all of our listeners

0:54:13.320 --> 0:54:15.080
<v Speaker 2>get it. And do you have another book?

0:54:15.840 --> 0:54:16.120
<v Speaker 1>Yeah?

0:54:16.200 --> 0:54:16.600
<v Speaker 2>I have.

0:54:17.000 --> 0:54:17.960
<v Speaker 1>I have a few books.

0:54:18.040 --> 0:54:21.320
<v Speaker 6>I have Set Boundaries Fine Peace, I have Drama Free,

0:54:21.360 --> 0:54:24.080
<v Speaker 6>and I have one coming out consider This that will

0:54:24.080 --> 0:54:25.359
<v Speaker 6>be out in October.

0:54:25.600 --> 0:54:28.719
<v Speaker 2>Okay, greatly exciting. Okay, well, thank you so much for

0:54:28.800 --> 0:54:29.520
<v Speaker 2>being here. Ndra.

0:54:30.080 --> 0:54:33.160
<v Speaker 1>You're welcome and have a great day you as well.

0:54:33.400 --> 0:54:36.120
<v Speaker 2>Okay, bye, listeners, we'll here, we'll hear you and see

0:54:36.160 --> 0:54:38.400
<v Speaker 2>you next week. That's from you to us, not the

0:54:38.440 --> 0:54:43.080
<v Speaker 2>other way around. Okay. So upcoming shows that I have

0:54:43.239 --> 0:54:45.680
<v Speaker 2>you guys, I'm coming to Texas. I'm coming to Saint

0:54:45.680 --> 0:54:48.120
<v Speaker 2>Louis and Kansas City, and then I will be in

0:54:48.200 --> 0:54:52.560
<v Speaker 2>Las Vegas performing at the Chelsea Theater inside the Cosmopolitan Hotel.

0:54:52.760 --> 0:54:55.520
<v Speaker 2>I'm coming to Brooklyn, New York at the King's Theater

0:54:56.040 --> 0:55:00.440
<v Speaker 2>on November eighth, and I have tickets on sale throughout

0:55:00.440 --> 0:55:03.680
<v Speaker 2>the end of the year in December. So if you're

0:55:03.680 --> 0:55:07.800
<v Speaker 2>in a city like Philadelphia or Bethlehem or San Diego

0:55:07.920 --> 0:55:12.560
<v Speaker 2>or New Orleans or Omaha. Check Chelseahandler dot com for tickets. Okay,

0:55:12.960 --> 0:55:13.520
<v Speaker 2>if you'd.

0:55:13.320 --> 0:55:15.799
<v Speaker 5>Like advice from Chelsea, shoot us an email at Dear

0:55:15.880 --> 0:55:18.520
<v Speaker 5>Chelsea podcast at gmail dot com and be sure to

0:55:18.520 --> 0:55:22.040
<v Speaker 5>include your phone number. Dear Chelsea is edited and engineered

0:55:22.040 --> 0:55:25.319
<v Speaker 5>by Brad Dickert executive producer Catherine Law and be sure

0:55:25.360 --> 0:55:30.360
<v Speaker 5>to check out our merch at Chelseahandler dot com