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Speaker 1: Hi.

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Speaker 2: Hello. This is Chelsea Handler Joy, Chelsea Joy, Chelsea Joy Handler.

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Speaker 3: Hello, this is Catherine Elizabeth Lah. How are you.

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Speaker 2: Oh, I'm good. I'm just sitting here in my bedroom

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Speaker 2: with my big black lover, Doug, and he is so cute.

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Speaker 4: Now.

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Speaker 2: I came home. I was gone for two weeks. I

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Speaker 2: went to my worka and I came home and he

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Speaker 2: has this new thing where he just jumps on you

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Speaker 2: and then puts your hand in his mouth with a

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Speaker 2: light and he's not really biting, but he's trying to

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Speaker 2: drag you. And I'm like, you better cut that fucking

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Speaker 2: shit out, buddy, because people are not going to respond

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Speaker 2: well to they I'm doing that. People who don't like

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Speaker 2: dogs are gonna be scared, right, Doug, make sure Mobell

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Speaker 2: tregged him to do that.

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Speaker 5: While in my absence, she's like, fol of Shenanigan's that Mabel.

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Speaker 1: Of course.

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Speaker 2: Of course. I was just listening to Alex Cooper's interview

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Speaker 2: with Kamala Harris on My Jove in. I was so

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Speaker 2: so blown away that she got that interview. I texted

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Speaker 2: her right away. I was like, holy shit, So that's awesome,

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Speaker 2: that's amazing. I love to see that.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I also like to see candidates being real and

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Speaker 5: normal in the modern world, like doing something like a podcast.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, exactly. I like when they just act like

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Speaker 2: normal people, Like you don't have to always be spouting Paul,

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Speaker 2: like you're a human being. I want to see the

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Speaker 2: human humanity in everyone you know and be like, Okay,

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Speaker 2: but anyway, I've been spending a lot of time in

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Speaker 2: my hyperbaric chamber because I'm a home for two weeks

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Speaker 2: and I figure I might as well regenerate and rejuvenate.

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Speaker 2: Or somebody told me the other day that my skin

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Speaker 2: looked incredible, and I was like, you know what, thanks

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Speaker 2: for that hot tip. I'm going to keep going. I'm like,

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Speaker 2: it must be the hyperbaric chamber.

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Speaker 5: So I was like sleeping like a vampire in your tube,

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Speaker 5: among all the other things that I do to myself.

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Speaker 3: Are you reading anything exciting right now?

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Speaker 2: I did. I just read a great book. I think

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Speaker 2: I don't know that it's out yet, because my editor

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Speaker 2: sent it to me. It's called Like Mother, Like Mother

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Speaker 2: by Susan Rieger. I read that. I read Cutting for

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Speaker 2: Stone Over the Break. That is long and laborious, and

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Speaker 2: I would not recommend that unless you're into you because

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Speaker 2: he's the one who wrote the Covenant of Water Abraham

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Speaker 2: fa Yes, yeah, I did just reread Many Lives, Many Masters,

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Speaker 2: because it's come up so many times on the podcast.

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Speaker 2: I did much. I just reread that and then I

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Speaker 2: gave it to my aunt because she could use a

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Speaker 2: little spirituality booster. I gave that to her with her

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Speaker 2: well bucher and that I dropped off at her house

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Speaker 2: the other day. I said, start taking one of these

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Speaker 2: a day every day. Please. She's like, you know, I'm

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Speaker 2: not unhappy. I'm like, no, no, no one's saying you're unhappy.

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Speaker 2: You just need a little bit of a moodlifter. I'm like,

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Speaker 2: it's just so that you're a little bit more optimistic. Yes,

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Speaker 2: And she's like, I am optimistic, but I'm also realistic.

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Speaker 2: And I'm dying. I'm like, you're not dying, you're just old.

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Speaker 2: We're all dying. That's my dad.

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Speaker 5: He's like ever since he turned I mean, I don't know,

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Speaker 5: probably thirty, but like literally every year he's like, I

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Speaker 5: probably won't make it five more years.

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Speaker 3: I'll probably die by the time i'm fifty.

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Speaker 2: Why do people say things like that. I so either

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Speaker 2: read or listened or someone told me that if we

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Speaker 2: make it through the next ten to fifteen years, we're

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Speaker 2: going to be able to live until we're one hundred

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Speaker 2: and twenty. I'm like, no, thank you. First of all,

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Speaker 2: I can't afford to live until I'm one hundred and twenty. Okay,

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Speaker 2: I don't have that kind of money. You want to

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Speaker 2: retire someday? Who the fuck wants to do that to

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Speaker 2: one hundred and twenty.

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Speaker 3: I mean, have you seen old people? It's hard to

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Speaker 3: get around.

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Speaker 2: Oh please, Well, apparently there's gonna have that. We're gonna

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Speaker 2: be all these things to help us keep us young.

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Speaker 2: But it's like I'm gonna spend most of my time

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Speaker 2: in a fucking hyperbaric chamber. I already feel like crazy

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Speaker 2: like a fox. Oh by the way, there are still

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Speaker 2: tickets for Kansas City, Saint Louis, and Indianapolis that are

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Speaker 2: coming up at the end of October October twenty fifth, sixth,

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Speaker 2: and seventh. Anyway, we have a serious guest today. We

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Speaker 2: have the professional today on the show No funny Stuff.

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Speaker 2: This was a recommendation from my friend Yanica. So please

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Speaker 2: welcome Nedra to wob Welcome Nedra to WAB Thank you

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Speaker 2: so much for being here today.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for having me.

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Speaker 2: I have lots of questions for you. I follow you

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Speaker 2: on Instagram. A lot of my friends also follow you

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Speaker 2: on Instagram, so I'm not sure who turned who on

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Speaker 2: to you. But I read your book Drama Free, and

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Speaker 2: I've sent it to a lot of people anonymously, just

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Speaker 2: so you know. I like to just send books to

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Speaker 2: people without them knowing exactly where it came from. But

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Speaker 2: there's a couple of things in your book that I

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Speaker 2: want to touch on right away. First of all, your

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Speaker 2: licensed therapist, so you have a lot of experience right

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Speaker 2: with dealing with different people, different kind of dynamics and relationships.

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Speaker 2: What I found very interesting, I had never really understood

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Speaker 2: the term enmeshment before, and I was interested in you

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Speaker 2: kind of delineating the difference between codependency and enmeshment because

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Speaker 2: some of the examples in the book that you used

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Speaker 2: for in meshment sounded to me like codependency. So I

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Speaker 2: want to be better at knowing what the real differentiation is.

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Speaker 1: Oh, that's a good one.

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Speaker 6: When I think of codependency, I think of us trying

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Speaker 6: to enable some unhealthy behavior, and a person trying to

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Speaker 6: rescue them from some sort of outcome, trying to manage

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Speaker 6: things in.

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Speaker 1: Their lives so they will be better.

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Speaker 6: When I think of, you know, this enmeshment that we

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Speaker 6: have in our relationships, people can be very healthy in

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Speaker 6: their own life and very enmeshed at the same time.

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Speaker 6: It's that couple that doesn't have any outside friends. It's

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Speaker 6: the siblings who won't let anybody else in. Nobody has

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Speaker 6: a drug addiction, nobody needs saving from anything. But there

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Speaker 6: is no outside influence. It's just us. And so the

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Speaker 6: enmeshment is really like we have no boundaries because we

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Speaker 6: have nothing else besides what's in this situation.

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Speaker 2: So would you say it's like a little bit like isolation,

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Speaker 2: like isolating someone.

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Speaker 1: Well, it could be isolating a lot of people.

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Speaker 6: I think you know you brought up Drama Free, which

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Speaker 6: is about dysfunctional family relationships, and one of the things

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Speaker 6: that happens in dysfunctional families is there is this immeshment around.

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Speaker 6: We are the only people who can love us, right

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Speaker 6: Like everybody else is an outsider, a friend, a teacher,

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Speaker 6: everyone is an outsider. It's only us. And it doesn't

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Speaker 6: mean that those people aren't healthy. For you, but it

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Speaker 6: certainly breaks up that dynamic and can point out some

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Speaker 6: of those things that are a bit dysfunctional, and so

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Speaker 6: for the dysfunctional system to sort of continue, we have

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Speaker 6: to be enmesh.

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Speaker 2: Okay, because one of the examples you use for enmeshment,

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Speaker 2: I think if I recall, it was about like getting

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Speaker 2: accepted to a college that was far away from home,

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Speaker 2: and your family desiring for you to go to college

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Speaker 2: close to home, and you choosing to go out of state, say,

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Speaker 2: and then having there'd be a consequence within your family

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Speaker 2: about that, like how dare you go so far away

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Speaker 2: from us? You're supposed to stay close. So that's a

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Speaker 2: good example of enmeshment.

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Speaker 6: Absolutely, when we are unable to get away from something,

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Speaker 6: even if we're going to this healthier thing, even if

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Speaker 6: our family has taken really great care of us, they

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Speaker 6: don't want us to leave. It's very healthy for people

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Speaker 6: around a certain age to leave the nest. And if

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Speaker 6: you're not allowed to do that, that can be problematic

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Speaker 6: for you. If you're not allowed to raise your children

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Speaker 6: a little differently than how you were raised, if you're

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Speaker 6: not allowed to have friends outside of the family, if

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Speaker 6: you're not allowed to go on vacation with people who

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Speaker 6: are other than family. Those things are problematic.

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Speaker 2: That very much sounds to me like an instance of

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Speaker 2: a man controlling a woman, say in a relationship where

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Speaker 2: they isolate them, right, and they don't want them to

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Speaker 2: have any friends, They don't want them to do anything

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Speaker 2: unless it's been approved. That kind of abuse, that kind

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Speaker 2: of situation that most typically leads to abuse control.

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Speaker 6: Right, Yes, so it typically is a control tactic because

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Speaker 6: the people we love, we want other people to love

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Speaker 6: them as well. And if I am saying to you

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Speaker 6: I am the only person who can love you, or

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Speaker 6: we are the only people who can love you, I

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Speaker 6: will pick the people that's not good for your sense

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Speaker 6: of autonomy, like you don't get to you know, be

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Speaker 6: at work. It maybe pick some people who are good

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Speaker 6: for you because they've already been picked. And so if

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Speaker 6: I am saying I am the barrier for entry of

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Speaker 6: anyone else, yes, I'm trying to control your life in

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Speaker 6: some sort of way.

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Speaker 2: Okay, let's talk about counter dependency versus codependency. So would

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Speaker 2: you say that counter dependency is basically the opposite of codependency.

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Speaker 6: Well, yes, counter dependency is the isolation of people as supports,

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Speaker 6: as confidantes, as emotional companions. People who are counter dependent,

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Speaker 6: they tend to function pretty well in life. They have

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Speaker 6: this very strong exterior. They have a mantra of I

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Speaker 6: don't need anyone to really do it yourselfers they believe

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Speaker 6: in this philosophy of being self made, and they have

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Speaker 6: a high ability to feel very lonely because we need

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Speaker 6: people in the world. When you are of the mindset

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Speaker 6: that people have harmed you and the safest thing to

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Speaker 6: do is stay away from people, it causes this isolation

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Speaker 6: of I am the only one with me, so even

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Speaker 6: if I can do it all, I still feel bad

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Speaker 6: about having to do it all, even if I'm pushing

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Speaker 6: people away. So sometimes, you know, we'll see this in

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Speaker 6: dating as the person everything is going really well, it

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Speaker 6: seems like it's a you know, really great relationship, and

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Speaker 6: then it's supposed to maybe go to the next step,

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Speaker 6: and they start to push you away because there's too

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Speaker 6: much closeness, there's too much vulnerability. So you see that

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Speaker 6: a lot with folks who are counterdependent, or and you

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Speaker 6: may see them carrying a heavy load and they are

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Speaker 6: unable to allow you to help them. Sometimes with our

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Speaker 6: family members. This is the person who we don't see

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Speaker 6: very often, the person who may not call us, the

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Speaker 6: person who keeps to themselves, but they function pretty well

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Speaker 6: in life, but they are very isolated from everyone else.

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Speaker 2: And is there a way to be counterdependent? Because my

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Speaker 2: sister and I were talking about this term over the

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Speaker 2: weekend and we were saying how we were both we

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Speaker 2: both became counterdependent because our parents were so well useless

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Speaker 2: pretty much. I mean they were around, but they weren't

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Speaker 2: really doing anything. And so we were like, oh, we're

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Speaker 2: both but we weren't. We're both very much involved in

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Speaker 2: our family. We're not isolated from our family. So how

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Speaker 2: does that fit in? Like, if you're somebody who's very

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Speaker 2: self sufficient, like I always feel like that. I'm like, oh,

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Speaker 2: I'm all on my own. I've got to do everything

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Speaker 2: on my own. But I've become quite used to that

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Speaker 2: because that's how I grew up, Like I had to

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Speaker 2: be self sufficient, but I'm not isolated from the rest

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Speaker 2: of the family.

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Speaker 1: Well, how do you invite people in?

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Speaker 2: I've always have people around.

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Speaker 1: But how do you invite people in emotionally?

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Speaker 6: Because there's a difference between having people around and being

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Speaker 6: around people and being able to show up in that

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Speaker 6: space and allowing people to be there for you, allowing

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Speaker 6: people to support you when you're going through something, not

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Speaker 6: you always being the supporter, but really letting people in,

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Speaker 6: letting them know what's going on. So you can have

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Speaker 6: relationships and still not be evotionally available in those relationships.

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Speaker 6: So I would wonder if a person is counterdependent, how

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Speaker 6: are you being vulnerable or not?

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Speaker 2: So coundre dependent would mean that you're not that you

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Speaker 2: are being invulnerable or can you be counterdependent and be vulnerable?

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Speaker 6: Counterdependent and vulnerable with a small few, with a small few.

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Speaker 6: Sometimes I'm just gonna live into that category.

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Speaker 3: I think that's true.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, with a small few, because what I've seen with

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Speaker 6: that is people who are vulnerable with a small few

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Speaker 6: is it is very small. I mean it's not enough

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Speaker 6: to even have a party with. It's really like I

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Speaker 6: have two people, and if something happens to these two people,

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Speaker 6: I don't have anyone else. There's no inviting in, there's

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Speaker 6: no more opening up because you know, again, somewhere along

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Speaker 6: the way, like you said, like you know, my parents

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Speaker 6: were useless, So I grew accustomed to doing things on

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Speaker 6: my own because I know I can do them. Well,

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Speaker 6: I know things will be done, and I have not

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Speaker 6: developed that trust for other people to do them. Now

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Speaker 6: I can talk to people about my problems, but I

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Speaker 6: don't really want people to get in there and resolve

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Speaker 6: my problems for me. So I think there is some

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Speaker 6: variation of how we're vulnerable with others as well. Sometimes

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Speaker 6: with counterdependency, people are very vulnerable after the fact. They

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Speaker 6: they talk about things as they have already resolved those things,

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Speaker 6: and not necessarily maybe as they're going through those things.

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Speaker 2: Okay, let's talk about the term. Is it alexathemia. That

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Speaker 2: was a word I had to look up that I've

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Speaker 2: learned in your book, So thank you. I love learning

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Speaker 2: new words. So tell us what that means.

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Speaker 6: Alexithymia is where we have like this emotional restriction. We're

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Speaker 6: not aware of what we feel. We almost can't tap

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Speaker 6: into our emotions. Sometimes this will show up in people

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Speaker 6: saying things like I don't cry, or I don't get

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Speaker 6: upset about stuff, or I don't get very angry. Well,

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Speaker 6: emotions are very helpful for us. Now how we express

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Speaker 6: those emotions it matters. You can be angry, but do

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Speaker 6: we want you to be angry and get out of

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Speaker 6: your car and yell at a driver. No, we don't

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Speaker 6: want that, but it is okay to have some level

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Speaker 6: of a feeling in your body. Ultimately, you know, people

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Speaker 6: have to be able to identify what their feeling is.

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Speaker 6: And with alexithymia, I think we see a lot of

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Speaker 6: folks who don't even know what they feel. It's like,

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Speaker 6: I don't know what I feel. I'm often confused about

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Speaker 6: what my feeling is about this thing, or they're pocketing

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Speaker 6: everything into you know, maybe two feelings. I'm angry or

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Speaker 6: I'm sad. Well, let's talk about this whole wheel of

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Speaker 6: other things.

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Speaker 1: You might feel.

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Speaker 6: You might feel disappointed, you might feel confused, you might

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Speaker 6: feel lonely. So being able to communicate your feelings, especially,

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Speaker 6: you know, going back to counterdependency, a lot of counterdependent

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Speaker 6: folks really struggle with being able to identify what they're feeling,

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Speaker 6: and so it can be challenging in your relationships with

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Speaker 6: people if you can't even show feeling and then be

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Speaker 6: able to recognize those feelings and other people and respond

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Speaker 6: to it because you don't have them. You're like, I

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Speaker 6: don't even understand why they're upset about this thing because

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Speaker 6: that wouldn't upset me. Well, we have to be able

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Speaker 6: to show up for people in relationships. We have to

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Speaker 6: be able to acknowledge what we're feeling. And you know,

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Speaker 6: as a therapist, we use things like feelings charts and

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Speaker 6: you know, mood trackers to kind of help you distinguish

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Speaker 6: between a happy moment, of exciting moment, a sad moment,

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Speaker 6: of this moment of that moment, because most people will

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Speaker 6: give you like two things, but once you break it down,

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Speaker 6: it can be hopeful to know that, actually I was

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Speaker 6: enraged when I did that. That was a step beyond anger.

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Speaker 6: When I responded in that way, I was actually very hurt.

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Speaker 6: I wasn't angry. Those can be very hopeful tools for

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Speaker 6: you to be able to communicate with others and certainly

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Speaker 6: to manage your behaviors.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you talk about that a little bit with a

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Speaker 2: couple that like, this woman was just frustrated with her

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Speaker 2: husband and not he wasn't able.

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Speaker 1: She was.

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Speaker 2: She was ready to leave him, and he wanted to

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Speaker 2: maintain the relationship and stay in the marriage. Yet he

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Speaker 2: didn't know how to He didn't know how to communicate

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Speaker 2: or what the problem was because he had grown up

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Speaker 2: with a family of you know, parents who were divorced

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Speaker 2: or had an unhealthy dynamic, and so he didn't know

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Speaker 2: how to express his emotions. And when someone is that stuck,

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Speaker 2: and you talk about this also like having patients that

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Speaker 2: aren't ready to make changes, you know, sometimes there's like

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Speaker 2: a phase of there are several phases of going to

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Speaker 2: therapy where you're curious enough to think that there is

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Speaker 2: a problem. Then you go and you start talking to somebody.

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Speaker 2: But I know from experience, my own therapy experience, that

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Speaker 2: it is there's a phases to when you're willing to

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Speaker 2: accept and learn more about yourself and actually gain self

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Speaker 2: awareness about your behavior. But when someone is so stuck

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Speaker 2: and is emotionally unavailable and emotionally almost uneducated, right, they

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Speaker 2: have an inability to express themselves, where do you begin?

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Speaker 2: How do you salvage a marriage if somebody is that

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Speaker 2: far removed from their own emotions.

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Speaker 6: Well, if that person is in therapy, I think a

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Speaker 6: therapist would point out their feelings for them. There have

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Speaker 6: been times where I say, you know, you sound very

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Speaker 6: sad about your partner wanting to leave the relationship without

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Speaker 6: that person being able to identify, Oh my gosh, I'm sad.

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Speaker 6: I'm like, is this accurate or am I far off right?

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Speaker 6: And then we'll talk about what that feeling looks like.

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Speaker 6: But if that person is not in therapy, I think

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Speaker 6: sometimes when we're in relationships with people, it can be

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Speaker 6: really challenging to push them to the point of change

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Speaker 6: because people have to want that, and there are you know,

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Speaker 6: there are people who grow an age who you know,

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Speaker 6: never change because it's it's so uncomfortable. It can be

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Speaker 6: so uncomfortable to move away from this idea that I

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Speaker 6: have to manage everything or I have to keep things

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Speaker 6: really private to I'm going to be an open book

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Speaker 6: with someone. For some people, they would rather that marriage

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Speaker 6: in than to risk being vulnerable in that relationship, because

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Speaker 6: that's way scarier. I have had some clients where it

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Speaker 6: has taken you know, maybe years maybe for them to

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Speaker 6: get to this point of being able to quickly recognize

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Speaker 6: what they feel and act on it. Particularly in marriages.

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Speaker 6: You know, a lot of marriages. You know, we kind

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Speaker 6: of talk about infidelity, We talk about, you know, how

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Speaker 6: you communicate when people have kids. That's a really troubling

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Speaker 6: spot as well.

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Speaker 2: I want to talk about this section of your Brook.

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Speaker 2: I took a screen grab because I found this it

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Speaker 2: resonated for a lot of situations that I've seen before

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Speaker 2: signs of emotionally immature parents. So there's a list of

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Speaker 2: One of the first thing says you feel lonely when

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Speaker 2: you're with them, which is so sad. The relationship is

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Speaker 2: one sided. They dismiss or minimize your emotions. They demand compliance,

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Speaker 2: and they don't respect boundaries. Also, they make their problems

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Speaker 2: seem more significant than yours, and they are unable to

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Speaker 2: hold space for your feelings or problems. So it sounds

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Speaker 2: that sounds also very narcissistic. Is there a correlation between

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Speaker 2: being like an immature parent because all of these things

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Speaker 2: are also signs they think of narcissism.

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Speaker 6: No, they could be, but I think a narcissis is

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Speaker 6: a little more strategic. I think an emotionally unavailable parent

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Speaker 6: is maybe a little more aloof because there can be

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Speaker 6: love there, like the parent can love.

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Speaker 1: You, but just not have those tools to really show

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Speaker 1: up in a way.

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Speaker 6: Even if you tell them like the application of these things,

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Speaker 6: they can't quite grasp it. So I would say what

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Speaker 6: a narcissist is a little more strategic. They really don't

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Speaker 6: have a desire to change. They are certainly manipulating a

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Speaker 6: situation with an emotionally immature parent. There just may be

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Speaker 6: a lack of understanding. Certainly they don't have a grasp

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Speaker 6: on their mental health. And I think that if a

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Speaker 6: narcissist or emotionally available person was a client, the emotionally

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Speaker 6: unavailable parent would likely be able to change and the

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Speaker 6: narcissist would not.

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Speaker 2: Right, because it is that's typical, right. I remember asking

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Speaker 2: my therapist if I was a narcissist, and he said,

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Speaker 2: typically narcissists aren't asking for feedback.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 6: I think sometimes we confuse narcissism with like being highly

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Speaker 6: concerned or putting your needs in the forefront, Like that's

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Speaker 6: not necessarily narcissistic. I think there is some strategy to

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Speaker 6: a narcissist that maybe we don't understand about that dynamic

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Speaker 6: where someone is strategically trying to manipulate you or make

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Speaker 6: you believe something is happening that's not happening.

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Speaker 1: With a parent.

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Speaker 6: I think what's happening is that parent probably still needs

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Speaker 6: a lot of parenting themselves, so being able to show

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Speaker 6: up for a child is just out of their wheelhouse.

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Speaker 6: Because they're really still looking for the same things that

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Speaker 6: you're looking for, which is a lot of nurturing. Kids

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Speaker 6: lead a lot they need people to tune into their world,

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Speaker 6: and some parents they just don't have those skills and

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Speaker 6: they don't really know how to develop them because they're

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Speaker 6: still trying to get it from you or to give

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Speaker 6: it to themselves.

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Speaker 2: And what advice would you give to children like that

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Speaker 2: that are dealing with an emotionally immature parent. How do

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Speaker 2: you guide that?

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Speaker 6: Well, you can have a relationship with an emotionally immature parent,

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Speaker 6: the relationship is not going to be ideal because you

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Speaker 6: cannot change that parent. So you know, for instance, if

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Speaker 6: you have a parent who doesn't respond to let's say

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Speaker 6: your career successes and you're like, mom, I got a

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Speaker 6: new show, or mom, I got this thing going on,

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Speaker 6: and they're like, oh, okay, you may want to not

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Speaker 6: share with your parent until you feel secure in the

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Speaker 6: way that they might respond. You may want to share

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Speaker 6: with people who can really have a warm level of

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Speaker 6: excitement and then tell your parent as a formality. But

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Speaker 6: going to that person who has shown that they can't support,

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Speaker 6: you know, looking for that support, that's going to hurt

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Speaker 6: you every time. So the strategy for being in relationships

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Speaker 6: with emotionally unavailable people is really to manage how you

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Speaker 6: interact with them, your expectations around what they are actually

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Speaker 6: capable of. With parents, we often give them expectations that

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Speaker 6: they can never achieve because you know, everybody is not

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Speaker 6: prepared to parent. What is the stat like seventy percent

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Speaker 6: of people have unplanned pregnancies, So you know, people are

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Speaker 6: not necessarily equipped to deal with everything that you know

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Speaker 6: happens with a child, even when that child is an adult.

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Speaker 1: Because you'll have.

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Speaker 6: A lot of adults who say, well, maybe I could

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Speaker 6: understand that they didn't get it when I was a kid,

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Speaker 6: but now I'm thirty, I'm forty, and they still don't

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Speaker 6: get it. And it's like, why do you think that

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Speaker 6: the aging process means maturing emotionally? It doesn't necessarily mean that.

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Speaker 6: And you're talking about them maturing during a high stress scenario.

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Speaker 6: They were raising you and working and doing all these things.

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Speaker 6: That's not the time to mature. So you know this

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Speaker 6: idea that our parents should be able to get it

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Speaker 6: at some point, it's like, well, what work have they done?

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Speaker 6: What work are they doing? Are they listening to this podcast.

436
00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:56,479
Speaker 6: Are they going to seminars? Are they in therapy? Like,

437
00:23:56,600 --> 00:24:00,840
Speaker 6: what are they doing? If they're not doing anything, expectation

438
00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:05,160
Speaker 6: of them changing is pretty small. And if you're into

439
00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:10,400
Speaker 6: this sort of self improvement work and mental health projects

440
00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:12,560
Speaker 6: and all of this sort of stuff, if you're into that,

441
00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:15,880
Speaker 6: then that's great for you. But it's certainly not something

442
00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:18,520
Speaker 6: that is likely to rub off on a person who

443
00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:22,439
Speaker 6: is uninterested, and certainly a person who doesn't seem to

444
00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:23,879
Speaker 6: have a problem with themselves.

445
00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:27,040
Speaker 2: Okay, that's very interesting. Not everybody is mature and just

446
00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:30,200
Speaker 2: because they are getting older, right, that's an important nugget

447
00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:34,160
Speaker 2: of information to remember when you're dealing with a sixty

448
00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:37,400
Speaker 2: year old moron. Remember that, everybody. Okay, we're gonna take

449
00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:38,960
Speaker 2: a quick break and we'll be right back to take

450
00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:39,560
Speaker 2: some callers.

451
00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:45,880
Speaker 1: We're back, We are back.

452
00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:47,960
Speaker 2: Okay, we're back with that. You're chob Yeah.

453
00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:50,440
Speaker 3: So I wanted to ask about enmeshment.

454
00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:53,080
Speaker 5: And we get a lot of calls and emails from

455
00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:56,760
Speaker 5: people who are having difficulty with their family, either because

456
00:24:56,800 --> 00:24:59,360
Speaker 5: they have chosen to leave the religion that they grew

457
00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:01,720
Speaker 5: up in, that they were raised in, or that they

458
00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:03,840
Speaker 5: come out of the closet and their families have a

459
00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:04,840
Speaker 5: poor reaction to that.

460
00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:09,040
Speaker 3: So I wonder is that a consequence of enmeshment Leaving.

461
00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:14,920
Speaker 6: A religion can be, particularly if you're unwilling to support

462
00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:17,840
Speaker 6: your child and discovering the new belief, or if you

463
00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:21,159
Speaker 6: are unwilling to even accept your child if they have

464
00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:22,359
Speaker 6: a new belief.

465
00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:25,520
Speaker 1: Particularly one that they're not joining a cult.

466
00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:30,320
Speaker 6: You know, you have this sometimes like within Christian sex

467
00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:33,439
Speaker 6: right like oh my gosh, you've went from Catholic to

468
00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:35,560
Speaker 6: this other thing, or you went from this to that,

469
00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:38,320
Speaker 6: and you know, people can have a lot of conversation

470
00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:43,080
Speaker 6: around that, meaning that everyone in this family needs to

471
00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:48,080
Speaker 6: be Presbyterian. Everyone in this family needs to be you know,

472
00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:50,560
Speaker 6: this particular thing, and if you are not that we

473
00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:55,840
Speaker 6: cannot accept it. So that is an example of enmeshment.

474
00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:59,879
Speaker 6: I would say that if you have a child or

475
00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:03,919
Speaker 6: some one in the family who is LGBTQ, typically that

476
00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:08,320
Speaker 6: is a value challenge in families that we do not

477
00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:11,000
Speaker 6: believe or we do not support this thing. Is not

478
00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:15,520
Speaker 6: necessarily we all have to be this one thing. I

479
00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:17,800
Speaker 6: think that is a little deeper, and it goes to

480
00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:20,960
Speaker 6: you know, if you are not this thing you end

481
00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:23,840
Speaker 6: up here, so it you know, I think that's a

482
00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:26,520
Speaker 6: really big thing in families, and I do talk about

483
00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:30,120
Speaker 6: that a bit and drama free as to what I've

484
00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:33,199
Speaker 6: seen sort of backfire for families. I live in the

485
00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:36,880
Speaker 6: South and so I do encounter a lot of folks

486
00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:41,200
Speaker 6: who are, you know, perhaps Christian, and you know, their

487
00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:44,840
Speaker 6: family does not believe in, you know, them having a

488
00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:47,440
Speaker 6: certain type of lifestyle, and it is a rough road.

489
00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:53,679
Speaker 6: And my suggestions there is always too one be yourself

490
00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:59,640
Speaker 6: and two also recognize it. In those situations, you are

491
00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:03,720
Speaker 6: redefining their idea of who they thought you were, and

492
00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:06,920
Speaker 6: they have to be able to process that. Sometimes they

493
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:10,240
Speaker 6: process it with you, which is terrible because who wants

494
00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:14,520
Speaker 6: to hear it. And sometimes they find, you know, a

495
00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:18,200
Speaker 6: therapist or someone else to process it with. But there

496
00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:20,960
Speaker 6: is this period of time where you know, in some

497
00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:25,280
Speaker 6: families they do go through this like value or moral crisis,

498
00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:28,040
Speaker 6: even when they love you and want to be in

499
00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:30,679
Speaker 6: relationship with you. And I would say that that is

500
00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:33,960
Speaker 6: you know, on the on the realm of normal to

501
00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:36,160
Speaker 6: have this sort of like I thought it was this

502
00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:40,919
Speaker 6: and now I'm starting to understand that you will have

503
00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:42,720
Speaker 6: a different life than what I thought it was.

504
00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:44,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think that's about It's very important to

505
00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:47,159
Speaker 2: remember the processing time because for someone like me, I'm

506
00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:49,320
Speaker 2: very impatient. I want everything to be quick.

507
00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:50,119
Speaker 1: I'm quick.

508
00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:52,640
Speaker 2: I take things in quickly and I and I can

509
00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:55,440
Speaker 2: spit them back out quickly and I can comprehend the situation.

510
00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:57,959
Speaker 2: But a lot of people do need a duration of

511
00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:01,280
Speaker 2: time to actually process whatever for new information that they've

512
00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:04,080
Speaker 2: been given. So when you do get a bad reaction

513
00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:06,639
Speaker 2: if you're say it is you're coming out to your

514
00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:09,640
Speaker 2: family and your family isn't as receptive as you would

515
00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:12,280
Speaker 2: hope they would be, there is a period of time

516
00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:14,720
Speaker 2: that you have to allow people to adjust to the

517
00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:17,600
Speaker 2: new information. And I think we can say, you know,

518
00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:20,840
Speaker 2: I know personally, I can lose sight of that. And

519
00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:23,480
Speaker 2: it's a good reminder for all of our listeners. You know,

520
00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:27,200
Speaker 2: everybody processes things differently, and some people take a lot

521
00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:29,840
Speaker 2: of time and some people take, you know, less time.

522
00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:34,240
Speaker 2: So to be open and not looking for immediate results.

523
00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:37,639
Speaker 6: Well, I think it's very similar when we restructure our

524
00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:41,920
Speaker 6: boundaries in families and we change you know, Hey, I

525
00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:44,120
Speaker 6: know every year I come home for Thanksgiving, but this

526
00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:47,120
Speaker 6: year I'm going to do this other thing. That new

527
00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:52,360
Speaker 6: information can be very problematic. Changing anything when people are

528
00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:55,640
Speaker 6: used to used to it being a certain way, is

529
00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:58,520
Speaker 6: you know, a problem, and there is some adjustment people

530
00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:02,040
Speaker 6: have to make on their end. We have the information

531
00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:05,160
Speaker 6: well before them, and so we're already adjusted and we're like,

532
00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:07,480
Speaker 6: what's the problem. Like, I just told you this thing

533
00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:09,440
Speaker 6: I've been thinking about for two years, why don't you

534
00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:13,000
Speaker 6: love it? And it's not to be received in that

535
00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:16,840
Speaker 6: way that people really do need some time to sort

536
00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:20,000
Speaker 6: of figure out what they feel about it and how

537
00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:20,960
Speaker 6: to show up with you.

538
00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:23,200
Speaker 3: Well, should we take some questions?

539
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:25,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, let's go. I can't wait for her to drop

540
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:27,120
Speaker 2: some more wisdom, you know.

541
00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:31,480
Speaker 5: Let's start with a caller. Our first caller is Lauren.

542
00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:35,520
Speaker 5: She says, Dear Chelsea. Last year, my partner of fourteen

543
00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:38,440
Speaker 5: years ended our relationship and moved out of our apartment.

544
00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:41,240
Speaker 5: It was an adjustment to take over full rent payments.

545
00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:43,400
Speaker 5: My parents offered to let me move in with them,

546
00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:45,120
Speaker 5: but I was determined to stay in my home and

547
00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:48,520
Speaker 5: maintain my independence. I've received my lease renewal and the

548
00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:51,400
Speaker 5: rent will increase by a whopping twelve percent. I've been

549
00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:54,080
Speaker 5: dipping into an inheritance left to me by my grandparents

550
00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:56,880
Speaker 5: to cover any shortages. There's not much inventory in my

551
00:29:56,960 --> 00:29:59,280
Speaker 5: area that's less than what I'm currently paying either, so

552
00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:01,960
Speaker 5: I can't move. I've renewed my lease, but made a

553
00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:04,160
Speaker 5: commitment to myself that this will be my last year

554
00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:06,840
Speaker 5: in this apartment, after which i'll temporarily move in with

555
00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:09,240
Speaker 5: my parents. This will allow me to pay down credit

556
00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:11,760
Speaker 5: card debt I accrued while my relationship was ending and

557
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:14,920
Speaker 5: I became depressed and did some emotional overspending. I'll build

558
00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:18,560
Speaker 5: my savings and eventually begin looking for a more permanent home. However,

559
00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:20,920
Speaker 5: I'm afraid that moving back into my childhood bedroom at

560
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:23,120
Speaker 5: thirty eight will tip me further into a depression that

561
00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:25,160
Speaker 5: I've been fighting my way out of for two years,

562
00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:27,800
Speaker 5: and I'm uncertain if my self esteem can take this hit.

563
00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:30,960
Speaker 5: I've felt shame in losing my relationship and struggling to

564
00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:34,040
Speaker 5: afford my own home and using my grandparents' money for rent.

565
00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:36,560
Speaker 5: That feeling will now be magnified by living in my

566
00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:39,640
Speaker 5: childhood bedroom, and I'm scared I'll be trapped. Plus, the

567
00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:42,360
Speaker 5: loss of independence is scary. How will I date as

568
00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:45,520
Speaker 5: an adult from my childhood bedroom. I'm truly grateful to

569
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:47,840
Speaker 5: have the support from my family. However, I'm still finding

570
00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:50,040
Speaker 5: it tough as I prepare myself for the emotional toll

571
00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:52,240
Speaker 5: of leaving home and with it the chapter of my

572
00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:54,440
Speaker 5: life I spent with my partner and for losing some

573
00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:56,000
Speaker 5: independence in my parents' house.

574
00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:58,800
Speaker 3: Thank you both. I absolutely love this podcast.

575
00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:00,960
Speaker 5: Listening to your wise words of a fe to others

576
00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:02,720
Speaker 5: is getting me through this tough time of my own.

577
00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:05,680
Speaker 1: Lauren, Hi, Lauren, Hi, Hi.

578
00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:08,440
Speaker 4: Lauren Hilsey, Hi, Catherine Hi.

579
00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:11,080
Speaker 2: This is Nager Chuab. She's our special guest today. She's

580
00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:13,000
Speaker 2: a licensed therapist, so you're in good hands.

581
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:15,240
Speaker 4: Hi o Hi, thanks so much.

582
00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:18,800
Speaker 2: Okay, so, first off, you have a year right left?

583
00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:20,320
Speaker 2: I mean to prepare for this move.

584
00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:22,600
Speaker 4: Correct, Yes, I now have a year.

585
00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:26,120
Speaker 2: Okay, So isn't there a possibility that within this year

586
00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:28,960
Speaker 2: you can figure out a different dynamic that won't make

587
00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:32,640
Speaker 2: you have all of these feelings like finding a roommate

588
00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:36,080
Speaker 2: to move in with or finding a different kind of

589
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:38,080
Speaker 2: I know you said most of the apartments in your

590
00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:40,760
Speaker 2: area are the same price, but I mean you have

591
00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:43,400
Speaker 2: a year to kind of find another solution if moving

592
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:46,239
Speaker 2: into your parents' house represents all of these kind of

593
00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:47,960
Speaker 2: misgivings you have about yourself.

594
00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:52,880
Speaker 4: Yes, yes, sire, And I'm considering the roommate option as well.

595
00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:55,680
Speaker 2: And possibly getting an additional job, Like what do you

596
00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:57,160
Speaker 2: do for a living? Do you have time to get

597
00:31:57,200 --> 00:31:59,240
Speaker 2: another job or something that you could do on the

598
00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:00,600
Speaker 2: weekends for ex income.

599
00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:03,680
Speaker 4: I work at an independent bookstore, and sometimes I have

600
00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:06,680
Speaker 4: to work on the weekends, and that's not always easy

601
00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:08,360
Speaker 4: for me to tell in advance, so it's hard to

602
00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:11,000
Speaker 4: schedule a second job. But I have thought about looking

603
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:13,760
Speaker 4: into second jobs I can do from home, maybe that

604
00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:17,880
Speaker 4: aren't tied to a schedule, but you know, data entry, writing,

605
00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:18,720
Speaker 4: those kind of things.

606
00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:21,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that sounds a lot better. Like I

607
00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:23,600
Speaker 2: would say, move into your parents if you were okay

608
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:25,840
Speaker 2: with that, but you sound like you're definitely not okay

609
00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:28,960
Speaker 2: with that, And that has all of these separate meetings

610
00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:33,840
Speaker 2: to you. And figuring out this situation independently before you

611
00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:35,959
Speaker 2: have to move in with your parents and coming up

612
00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:38,360
Speaker 2: with solutions so that you don't have to move in

613
00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:40,280
Speaker 2: with your parents are going to serve you a lot

614
00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:43,520
Speaker 2: better than kind of folding into a situation that you're

615
00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:46,320
Speaker 2: not looking forward to Yeah.

616
00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:48,720
Speaker 4: I think you're right, And part of why I decided

617
00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:50,920
Speaker 4: to stay for one more year was trying to find,

618
00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:53,080
Speaker 4: you know, the fortitude in myself to make changes in

619
00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:55,320
Speaker 4: how I live, make changes to my budget, and see like,

620
00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:57,320
Speaker 4: exactly what can I do? What can I do in

621
00:32:57,360 --> 00:32:57,680
Speaker 4: a year?

622
00:32:58,320 --> 00:32:59,480
Speaker 2: Yeah? What do you think, Nedra?

623
00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:04,720
Speaker 6: You know, I wonder if you could reframe this from

624
00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:08,640
Speaker 6: moving into my childhood home to moving in with my

625
00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:14,000
Speaker 6: parents and reinventing that space talking to your parents about

626
00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:17,719
Speaker 6: what living with them as an adult looks like versus

627
00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:21,800
Speaker 6: living with them as you know, someone zero to eighteen.

628
00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:26,280
Speaker 6: I think this is a wonderful opportunity for you to

629
00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:31,240
Speaker 6: reposition yourself to be able to move out and maybe

630
00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:35,400
Speaker 6: stay out for a longer period of time. But this

631
00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:38,360
Speaker 6: sounds like a wonderful opportunity. I wonder if you could

632
00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:41,920
Speaker 6: reframe this really as a gift to be able to

633
00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:45,080
Speaker 6: have parents who have a space for you to move

634
00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:50,480
Speaker 6: into where you can revisit your finances and think about

635
00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:52,920
Speaker 6: how you want things to be in maybe five years

636
00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:54,520
Speaker 6: or three years or whatever.

637
00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:55,080
Speaker 1: The plan is.

638
00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:57,760
Speaker 6: But you know, if you keep thinking of this as like,

639
00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:02,080
Speaker 6: you know, little Lauren's bedroom where she had this, you know,

640
00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:05,520
Speaker 6: poster on the wall, it will be a terrible experience.

641
00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:08,439
Speaker 6: You are an adult, and I'm sure your apartment looks

642
00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:11,759
Speaker 6: a nice, lovely way and you can recreate that. You know,

643
00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:15,040
Speaker 6: look at some tiny home stuff on Penrish. You could

644
00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:20,360
Speaker 6: get really creative with this space and really maximize where

645
00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:24,640
Speaker 6: you are at this point. You'll have more more discretionary

646
00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:27,120
Speaker 6: income to hang out with your friends, you might be

647
00:34:27,200 --> 00:34:30,520
Speaker 6: able to do some of that frivolous spending that you

648
00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:33,320
Speaker 6: were talking about, and you can certainly buy as many

649
00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:36,600
Speaker 6: books as you like. So this is really to me,

650
00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:40,080
Speaker 6: it's like, will they take more people in this house,

651
00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:47,400
Speaker 6: because it's a wonderful opportunity to reposition yourself for a

652
00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:49,480
Speaker 6: better situation in the future.

653
00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:51,839
Speaker 5: Lauren, I'm going to tattle on you a little bit,

654
00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:53,719
Speaker 5: but this is something that came out when we were

655
00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:56,279
Speaker 5: having our sort of pre interview call. You know, I know,

656
00:34:56,320 --> 00:34:59,440
Speaker 5: the breakup happens like eighteen months ago or so, and

657
00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:02,640
Speaker 5: you're still in contact with your ex and like hanging out.

658
00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:04,359
Speaker 5: I know that's been sort of difficult for.

659
00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:08,040
Speaker 3: You guys and to me with that, and like having this.

660
00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:10,359
Speaker 5: Extra year to sort of make a decision about moving

661
00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:13,040
Speaker 5: in with your folks. It feels like maybe there's a

662
00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:16,560
Speaker 5: bit of like a things are moving a little bit slowly,

663
00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:19,920
Speaker 5: and I wonder, at Needra if you'd have some advice

664
00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:22,239
Speaker 5: as far as like boundaries there with the ex, if

665
00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:26,040
Speaker 5: it's okay to keep seeing him, if it's very painful

666
00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:29,160
Speaker 5: for them, or what are good sort of next steps

667
00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:29,600
Speaker 5: for Lauren.

668
00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:34,680
Speaker 6: Well, I think we think about life is like this

669
00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:37,960
Speaker 6: upward progression of stuff, and if we go back to

670
00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:40,680
Speaker 6: some period in life, it's like a disaster. It's like

671
00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:43,879
Speaker 6: go back to school, go back to my parents' house,

672
00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:47,840
Speaker 6: go back to my ex. When an actuality, maybe everything

673
00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:50,360
Speaker 6: is just kind of fluid and we are moving in

674
00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:53,120
Speaker 6: and out of situations, and maybe this is a time

675
00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:56,520
Speaker 6: with your ex where you need to evaluate how the

676
00:35:56,600 --> 00:36:01,040
Speaker 6: relationship that you're establishing with your ex now is adding

677
00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:03,600
Speaker 6: any value to your life or not. Is it putting

678
00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:05,960
Speaker 6: you more in this space of oh my gosh, we

679
00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:08,759
Speaker 6: should have been here with things, or is it like

680
00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:13,160
Speaker 6: this is wonderful companionship. So you know, it's not necessarily

681
00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:16,000
Speaker 6: bad to have a relationship with your ex, but what

682
00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:19,880
Speaker 6: is the meaning of the relationship, How is the relationship

683
00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:24,000
Speaker 6: impacting how you see yourself. Those are important things to

684
00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:27,520
Speaker 6: think about as you're continuing to connect with this person.

685
00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:32,600
Speaker 4: Yes, thank you. That all sounds like so many things

686
00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:35,120
Speaker 4: I need to think about. I think we've had blurred

687
00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:38,400
Speaker 4: lines over the nature of our relationship, him not wanting

688
00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:42,080
Speaker 4: to put a label on it, and having some of

689
00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:45,919
Speaker 4: his stuff still on my home. It definitely at times,

690
00:36:45,920 --> 00:36:49,600
Speaker 4: I'm not really sure what we're intending. So good things

691
00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:50,480
Speaker 4: to think about.

692
00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:52,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean all different and lots of different advice

693
00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:55,799
Speaker 2: to think about. I mean a lot of different perspectives,

694
00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:58,640
Speaker 2: or at least a couple of different perspectives. But do

695
00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:01,520
Speaker 2: you feel like relation to your ex that you guys

696
00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:04,240
Speaker 2: are in a do you feel like it's a healthy dynamic?

697
00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:08,200
Speaker 2: What you your communication with him and your relationship with

698
00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:09,480
Speaker 2: him as it stands today?

699
00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:13,440
Speaker 4: You know, I'm not sure. The last time we spoke,

700
00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:17,640
Speaker 4: he expressed a lot of self loathing on his part

701
00:37:17,719 --> 00:37:21,440
Speaker 4: for having and died the relationship and not knowing why,

702
00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:24,880
Speaker 4: and listening to him talk, I just kept thinking, you know,

703
00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:28,720
Speaker 4: like he's not in good working order to start up again.

704
00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:31,920
Speaker 4: You know, he needs to love himself and I want

705
00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:33,680
Speaker 4: him to do that. And it's you know, at times

706
00:37:33,719 --> 00:37:35,799
Speaker 4: I do feel selfish, like think, oh my gosh, he

707
00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:38,000
Speaker 4: you know, he's second guessing this, or he's not sure

708
00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:40,000
Speaker 4: why he did what he did. Maybe we'll go back.

709
00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:44,400
Speaker 4: But I do worry that he might be returning or

710
00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:46,520
Speaker 4: thinking about returning as a way to kind of boost

711
00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:48,520
Speaker 4: his self esteem and not have the guilt for ending

712
00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:49,359
Speaker 4: the relationship.

713
00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:53,080
Speaker 6: You know, I'm less concerned about what he's doing and

714
00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:55,920
Speaker 6: what you're choosing to do, Laurene. I wonder what do

715
00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:58,520
Speaker 6: you want in this dynamic? I hear a lot about

716
00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:01,600
Speaker 6: I think he's doing this and it's probably like this,

717
00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:03,960
Speaker 6: and it's like, well, this is your life. What type

718
00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:07,640
Speaker 6: of relationship do you want with a person if you're dating.

719
00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:10,439
Speaker 6: I don't know if you consider this dating, But if

720
00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:12,560
Speaker 6: you're dating a person, what do you.

721
00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:15,440
Speaker 1: Want that dynamic to look like? And is this it?

722
00:38:16,239 --> 00:38:19,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, thank you for reframing it that way. Yeah, right now,

723
00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:20,279
Speaker 4: it's not it.

724
00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:24,680
Speaker 6: So maybe this is just companionship for now, and whatever

725
00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:28,759
Speaker 6: his desire is for the relationship, it doesn't override what

726
00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:32,160
Speaker 6: your desire is for a relationship. So if you want

727
00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:34,520
Speaker 6: to go to the movies with this fellow, that's fine,

728
00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:38,040
Speaker 6: But what you're looking for is not what he's offering.

729
00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:41,320
Speaker 6: So just being clear about that can be really helpful.

730
00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:44,200
Speaker 6: It can help you draw those boundaries of I need

731
00:38:44,239 --> 00:38:46,080
Speaker 6: you to get your stuff out of my apartment in

732
00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:50,759
Speaker 6: thirty days, right, because you know, if I'm just if

733
00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:54,840
Speaker 6: we're just companions and we're spending time together, maybe in

734
00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:57,840
Speaker 6: that type of relationship, I don't allow myself to be

735
00:38:57,880 --> 00:38:59,000
Speaker 6: a storage facility.

736
00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:03,160
Speaker 1: Right, So you think of what that looks like.

737
00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:06,400
Speaker 6: Like, Okay, so we have some sort of relationship, but

738
00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:10,919
Speaker 6: what would the boundaries for this type of relationship be, right?

739
00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:13,279
Speaker 4: We haven't really put boundaries on it at all, and

740
00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:16,040
Speaker 4: definitely need it definitely.

741
00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:16,920
Speaker 1: Yeah.

742
00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:19,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, it sounds like you definitely need to implement some

743
00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:21,840
Speaker 2: boundaries in all of your life, you know, like to

744
00:39:21,960 --> 00:39:24,120
Speaker 2: decide what you want to do, Like if you're going

745
00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:26,520
Speaker 2: to go move in with your parents, commit to making

746
00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:29,720
Speaker 2: that a really positive situation. And if you're not going

747
00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:32,200
Speaker 2: to commit to figuring out a way to make that

748
00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:35,320
Speaker 2: a really positive situation, because you're in a gray zone.

749
00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:37,600
Speaker 2: So hopefully some of this stuff that we've talked about

750
00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:38,440
Speaker 2: today will help you.

751
00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:41,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, it is, it is so helpful. Thank you all

752
00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:43,400
Speaker 4: three of you. This is this is really wonderful.

753
00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:45,320
Speaker 2: Okay, well great, Well.

754
00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:47,239
Speaker 3: Keep us posted on what happens with you.

755
00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:50,000
Speaker 2: Okay, Lauren, pick up drama free read some There's some

756
00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:51,920
Speaker 2: stuff there that will apply to you for sure.

757
00:39:52,080 --> 00:39:53,120
Speaker 3: Oh we'll do all.

758
00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:56,359
Speaker 5: Right, Thanks Lauren, Thank you, Lauren, thanks so much. Our

759
00:39:56,440 --> 00:39:58,320
Speaker 5: next email and this is just an email, so he

760
00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:01,720
Speaker 5: won't join us. But this comes for from Chris. He says,

761
00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:04,280
Speaker 5: I'm a gay man in my early thirties, the youngest

762
00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:06,640
Speaker 5: of three, and this involves my sister, the middle child,

763
00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:10,640
Speaker 5: who's four years older. Almost ten years ago, after graduating college,

764
00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:13,799
Speaker 5: I enrolled in graduate school. My older sister, after doing

765
00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:16,719
Speaker 5: nothing for a few years in her twenties, enrolled two.

766
00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:18,360
Speaker 5: I initially thought it would be great to have her

767
00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:20,200
Speaker 5: with me during what was sure to be a stressful

768
00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:22,719
Speaker 5: few years, and I quickly made a tight knit group

769
00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:25,440
Speaker 5: of friends, three guys and three girls. Toward the end

770
00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:28,480
Speaker 5: of grad school, my sister became increasingly close to my

771
00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:31,239
Speaker 5: friend group, despite having made her own friends during our

772
00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:34,480
Speaker 5: time in school. Eventually, I finished grad school and moved

773
00:40:34,520 --> 00:40:36,799
Speaker 5: to a big, fun city one hour north. I was

774
00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:39,160
Speaker 5: excited for a fresh start to be whoever I wanted,

775
00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:41,719
Speaker 5: make gay friends and live as an outgay man for

776
00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:44,319
Speaker 5: the first time in my life. Six months later, my

777
00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:47,560
Speaker 5: sister moved to the same city as me. I quickly

778
00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:49,400
Speaker 5: made gay friends and made up for the fun I

779
00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:52,040
Speaker 5: didn't have while in grad school. Before I knew it,

780
00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:54,320
Speaker 5: I had so many gay friends and was having a blast.

781
00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:57,480
Speaker 5: But soon my closest friends were becoming my sister's close friends.

782
00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:00,000
Speaker 5: I realized she would meet them in passing and then

783
00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:01,480
Speaker 5: DM them to hang out.

784
00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:03,239
Speaker 3: Now, while this might not have.

785
00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:07,040
Speaker 5: Been inherently wrong, it felt suffocating to me. Soon I'd

786
00:41:07,080 --> 00:41:09,719
Speaker 5: show up to gay friends' houses and she'd already be there.

787
00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:12,400
Speaker 5: She'd cook dinner for my friends when I wasn't around,

788
00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:14,239
Speaker 5: and she even once went on a trip with a

789
00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:16,160
Speaker 5: few of my friends and I didn't find out about

790
00:41:16,160 --> 00:41:19,040
Speaker 5: it until later. Shouldn't she be busy making her own

791
00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:21,840
Speaker 5: friends and having her own life. I know the importance

792
00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:24,080
Speaker 5: of family and how much you talk about sisterly love.

793
00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:26,640
Speaker 5: I love my sister always, but I do not think that,

794
00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:29,279
Speaker 5: just because we're siblings, that my sister has allowed carte

795
00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:32,439
Speaker 5: blanche access to my life, especially when I've expressed wanting

796
00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:34,919
Speaker 5: boundaries to have some things for myself. Am I wrong

797
00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:36,920
Speaker 5: for feeling this way, Chris.

798
00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:38,600
Speaker 2: I don't know it. Does that sound like enmeshment?

799
00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:42,520
Speaker 1: That's right, It definitely sounds like immeshment.

800
00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:46,840
Speaker 6: And I'm thinking here that Chris could do a better

801
00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:50,640
Speaker 6: job of not introducing his sister to his friends. There

802
00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:53,719
Speaker 6: are some things, it sounds like that need to be private,

803
00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:58,480
Speaker 6: because if he's expressed that I want my friends to

804
00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:01,040
Speaker 6: be my friends, please do not call them, please do not.

805
00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:05,279
Speaker 6: There is something sacred that he needs to keep in

806
00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:09,880
Speaker 6: place that doesn't involve her, because she's not really honoring

807
00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:14,239
Speaker 6: this request to have these you know, separate relationships or

808
00:42:14,239 --> 00:42:16,719
Speaker 6: you go find your own people. Doesn't sound like she's

809
00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:19,719
Speaker 6: going to do that from city to city, from you know,

810
00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:23,719
Speaker 6: life event to life event. She's really latching one. And

811
00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:26,640
Speaker 6: so he will have to be the person to say,

812
00:42:27,160 --> 00:42:29,839
Speaker 6: I will not invite you to this thing. I will

813
00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:33,960
Speaker 6: not introduce you to these people, so she cannot continue

814
00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:37,040
Speaker 6: to have these relationships. You know, I think it could

815
00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:39,880
Speaker 6: be very hard for your friends to meet your sister,

816
00:42:39,960 --> 00:42:43,600
Speaker 6: and she's a very lovely person and to say to her, hey,

817
00:42:43,640 --> 00:42:47,279
Speaker 6: we can't talk anymore because i'm your brother's friend, Right,

818
00:42:48,680 --> 00:42:51,919
Speaker 6: That's a really hard thing to say. But it might

819
00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:55,760
Speaker 6: be something that he needs to talk about with everyone

820
00:42:55,800 --> 00:42:58,160
Speaker 6: in his life that Hey, I'm in this situation with

821
00:42:58,239 --> 00:43:00,640
Speaker 6: my sister. I love her dearly, but I'm really trying

822
00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:02,960
Speaker 6: to help her meet her own people. She has this

823
00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:06,799
Speaker 6: history of really latching on to my people. So if

824
00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:09,080
Speaker 6: she DMS you, you could just let her know that

825
00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:13,040
Speaker 6: we've had this conversation. Sometimes with our boundaries, we like

826
00:43:13,120 --> 00:43:16,600
Speaker 6: to say things once and give people the chance to

827
00:43:16,680 --> 00:43:18,839
Speaker 6: do something. And then after we say it once and

828
00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:21,799
Speaker 6: we say it twice, we have to do something about it.

829
00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:24,880
Speaker 6: We have to start to issue some sort of consequences.

830
00:43:25,160 --> 00:43:30,360
Speaker 6: The consequence of this would be eliminating her from social things,

831
00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:32,600
Speaker 6: so she no longer has that opportunity.

832
00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:33,560
Speaker 4: You know.

833
00:43:33,880 --> 00:43:36,879
Speaker 6: Also, in a very loving way, you could, you know, hey,

834
00:43:37,239 --> 00:43:38,680
Speaker 6: have you looked into book clubs?

835
00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:38,960
Speaker 5: Hey?

836
00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:42,000
Speaker 6: You know, I work with this lady who's really cool.

837
00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:45,240
Speaker 6: It says like you all would be wonderful friends. Helping

838
00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:48,680
Speaker 6: her meet some people could be helpful, But ultimately you

839
00:43:48,760 --> 00:43:51,279
Speaker 6: will have to take things into your own hands where

840
00:43:51,280 --> 00:43:55,000
Speaker 6: you say I can't even include you anymore, because I

841
00:43:55,080 --> 00:43:58,400
Speaker 6: have learned the hard way over and over that you

842
00:43:58,520 --> 00:44:01,200
Speaker 6: will start to absorb these things.

843
00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:02,640
Speaker 1: I'm doing as your own.

844
00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:06,719
Speaker 2: But this woman, the sister, sounds like she has absolutely

845
00:44:06,719 --> 00:44:11,200
Speaker 2: no boundaries. I mean she's following him from city to city,

846
00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:13,560
Speaker 2: is hanging out with his friends. I mean, she's not.

847
00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:14,120
Speaker 1: Going to take that.

848
00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:17,920
Speaker 2: Well. Obviously, we already discussed people having boundaries set that

849
00:44:18,239 --> 00:44:20,879
Speaker 2: haven't had them before and their bad reaction to them.

850
00:44:21,239 --> 00:44:23,920
Speaker 2: So how would you deal with someone who's going to

851
00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:27,920
Speaker 2: have a hostile reaction to him trying to set a boundary,

852
00:44:28,040 --> 00:44:30,279
Speaker 2: because I would disagree. I don't think it's up to

853
00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:32,880
Speaker 2: him to talk to his friends about it. Like this

854
00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:35,520
Speaker 2: is a her issue, you know, Like I have a

855
00:44:35,560 --> 00:44:37,640
Speaker 2: lot of friends that are just nice enough to my

856
00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:40,000
Speaker 2: family that they would hang out with them as a favor.

857
00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:42,600
Speaker 2: So like he has to go around and basically tell

858
00:44:42,640 --> 00:44:44,440
Speaker 2: all these people to stop doing it. I mean, I

859
00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:47,680
Speaker 2: feel like it's a her problem, not is his friend's problem.

860
00:44:48,680 --> 00:44:51,520
Speaker 1: Well, I agree with you. I think it's her problem.

861
00:44:51,560 --> 00:44:55,080
Speaker 6: But I think if he has spoken to her, he

862
00:44:55,160 --> 00:44:58,680
Speaker 6: may want to try something different. Speaking to the friends

863
00:44:58,719 --> 00:45:02,080
Speaker 6: is just one way to to address it, and other

864
00:45:02,120 --> 00:45:04,719
Speaker 6: people may not feel comfortable set in that boundary. That's

865
00:45:04,719 --> 00:45:07,160
Speaker 6: why I say a lot of it will be not

866
00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:12,000
Speaker 6: including his sister in on certain information or including her

867
00:45:12,400 --> 00:45:15,640
Speaker 6: in these friend gatherings and social events where she has

868
00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:19,280
Speaker 6: the opportunity to latch on to other people. She can't

869
00:45:19,320 --> 00:45:23,080
Speaker 6: DM anyone that she doesn't know about, she can't invite

870
00:45:23,120 --> 00:45:27,000
Speaker 6: people on vacation if she's never met them, and it

871
00:45:27,040 --> 00:45:30,880
Speaker 6: can be known that I will not mix my friends

872
00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:35,400
Speaker 6: with you anymore. And she is entitled to have whatever reaction.

873
00:45:35,600 --> 00:45:39,000
Speaker 6: But it sounds like, you know, the letter writer here

874
00:45:39,080 --> 00:45:41,879
Speaker 6: has a really big, important reaction as well. I meant

875
00:45:42,520 --> 00:45:45,640
Speaker 6: the letter was written to say, I'm having this really

876
00:45:45,719 --> 00:45:49,680
Speaker 6: big issue, so she can have whatever response she's going

877
00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:52,239
Speaker 6: to have, and I think the execution of it is,

878
00:45:52,840 --> 00:45:55,840
Speaker 6: I have to exclude you from certain things as a

879
00:45:55,920 --> 00:45:59,760
Speaker 6: consequence of you not honoring the boundary. Because the solution

880
00:46:00,280 --> 00:46:02,480
Speaker 6: is not for her to start to do these things

881
00:46:02,520 --> 00:46:05,840
Speaker 6: because she hasn't done them. She has very poor boundaries.

882
00:46:05,920 --> 00:46:09,759
Speaker 6: It is not really anyone's job to fix that, but

883
00:46:09,880 --> 00:46:13,239
Speaker 6: it is, you know, perhaps his job to make sure

884
00:46:13,239 --> 00:46:14,880
Speaker 6: that his boundary is honored.

885
00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:17,200
Speaker 5: I feel like, also if you tell your friends, like

886
00:46:17,600 --> 00:46:19,560
Speaker 5: if you do meet my sister, like she's a little

887
00:46:19,560 --> 00:46:21,359
Speaker 5: bit clinging, she like tries to hang out with all

888
00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:22,879
Speaker 5: my friends and sort of like with an eye roll,

889
00:46:23,080 --> 00:46:25,560
Speaker 5: they'll they'll kind of get the gest right.

890
00:46:25,520 --> 00:46:26,640
Speaker 1: They won't want to hang out with her.

891
00:46:26,680 --> 00:46:29,160
Speaker 2: I think, well, yeah, I mean, but it's I feel

892
00:46:29,160 --> 00:46:31,000
Speaker 2: like the issue is her. You know, she used to

893
00:46:31,040 --> 00:46:34,120
Speaker 2: like cultivate her own friendships and her own relationships. Yeah,

894
00:46:34,120 --> 00:46:36,160
Speaker 2: I mean, And it's hard to hear from a family member.

895
00:46:36,200 --> 00:46:38,480
Speaker 2: I don't want you around all the time, you know, right,

896
00:46:38,520 --> 00:46:40,680
Speaker 2: So it's like I just am thinking about like what

897
00:46:40,719 --> 00:46:42,799
Speaker 2: it would feel like, you know. She thinks, probably like, oh,

898
00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:44,880
Speaker 2: this is great. My brother and I have all the

899
00:46:44,880 --> 00:46:48,080
Speaker 2: same friends. We're super close, we do everything together. His

900
00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:50,400
Speaker 2: friends are my friends. So it's gonna be like a

901
00:46:50,560 --> 00:46:53,840
Speaker 2: real loud thud when she finds out that's not the case.

902
00:46:54,360 --> 00:46:57,120
Speaker 5: Yeah, but yeah, Well, let's take a quick break and

903
00:46:57,200 --> 00:46:59,440
Speaker 5: we'll come back with a question to wrap up.

904
00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:01,520
Speaker 2: Okay, So we'll take a break and we'll be right

905
00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:03,160
Speaker 2: back to wrap up with Nedra.

906
00:47:07,920 --> 00:47:10,319
Speaker 5: And we're back, and we're back, and I have one

907
00:47:10,400 --> 00:47:13,600
Speaker 5: last quick caller for us. So Allison is calling in.

908
00:47:13,960 --> 00:47:18,120
Speaker 5: She says, Dear Chelsea, I'm adopted. I found my birth

909
00:47:18,160 --> 00:47:20,399
Speaker 5: mother more than twenty five years ago, and my birth

910
00:47:20,440 --> 00:47:23,319
Speaker 5: father at the same time. Over the past twenty five

911
00:47:23,360 --> 00:47:26,200
Speaker 5: plus years, I've built great relationships with my birth mother,

912
00:47:26,440 --> 00:47:30,279
Speaker 5: my half sister, adopted sister, cousins, etc. I've enjoyed those

913
00:47:30,320 --> 00:47:33,520
Speaker 5: relationships immensely. I met my birth father once and have

914
00:47:33,600 --> 00:47:36,920
Speaker 5: no relationship with him. My question is do I approach

915
00:47:37,040 --> 00:47:40,560
Speaker 5: my four half brothers on his side, his sons, who

916
00:47:40,640 --> 00:47:43,399
Speaker 5: he's told me have no idea I exist, and let

917
00:47:43,440 --> 00:47:45,520
Speaker 5: them know they have a half sister out here before

918
00:47:45,760 --> 00:47:48,680
Speaker 5: they or I start dying. And we entirely missed the

919
00:47:48,760 --> 00:47:51,880
Speaker 5: chance to meet. My adopted sister found her birth family

920
00:47:51,920 --> 00:47:54,560
Speaker 5: and is loving having two new brothers. She's very encouraging

921
00:47:54,600 --> 00:47:56,359
Speaker 5: of me to reach out to these people. But I'm

922
00:47:56,400 --> 00:47:59,000
Speaker 5: on the fence. What do you two think? Should this

923
00:47:59,040 --> 00:48:01,040
Speaker 5: family secret blow up or stay dormant?

924
00:48:01,800 --> 00:48:03,600
Speaker 2: Allison, That's a tough one.

925
00:48:03,760 --> 00:48:04,560
Speaker 3: Yeah.

926
00:48:04,680 --> 00:48:07,759
Speaker 5: The other thing that she mentioned is they all live

927
00:48:07,840 --> 00:48:09,799
Speaker 5: kind of in the same area and she's worried about

928
00:48:09,840 --> 00:48:13,239
Speaker 5: her kids and their kids like meeting and volume lo.

929
00:48:14,680 --> 00:48:17,960
Speaker 2: Hi, Hi, Hi, Alison? How are you? Oh?

930
00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:18,200
Speaker 6: Wow?

931
00:48:18,280 --> 00:48:19,440
Speaker 7: Thank you, Chelsea, how are you?

932
00:48:19,800 --> 00:48:22,480
Speaker 2: I'm great. This is Nedra towab our special guest today.

933
00:48:23,040 --> 00:48:25,759
Speaker 2: So you've discovered some of your family members and not

934
00:48:25,840 --> 00:48:28,240
Speaker 2: all of your family members CORP.

935
00:48:28,480 --> 00:48:31,720
Speaker 7: I've known my birth mother and father for thirty years.

936
00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:34,239
Speaker 7: I've had a relationship with my birth mother and that

937
00:48:34,360 --> 00:48:36,919
Speaker 7: side of the family all this time. I have never

938
00:48:36,960 --> 00:48:39,279
Speaker 7: had a relationship with my birth father, and he has

939
00:48:39,440 --> 00:48:42,680
Speaker 7: four sons whom I have never met, nor do I

940
00:48:42,719 --> 00:48:43,799
Speaker 7: believe they know about me.

941
00:48:44,120 --> 00:48:46,719
Speaker 2: Okay, what do you think ndra about this?

942
00:48:47,600 --> 00:48:50,080
Speaker 1: I have a question here, who's secret is this?

943
00:48:51,160 --> 00:48:53,280
Speaker 7: It would be my birth father's secret.

944
00:48:54,080 --> 00:48:58,160
Speaker 6: Okay, why do you feel the responsibility to keep someone

945
00:48:58,160 --> 00:48:59,880
Speaker 6: else's secret?

946
00:49:00,160 --> 00:49:03,239
Speaker 7: Is a very fair question, And I don't know. My

947
00:49:03,280 --> 00:49:07,560
Speaker 7: grandmother who raised me, basically said she was very old school,

948
00:49:07,600 --> 00:49:10,080
Speaker 7: and she's like, don't you ever embarrass him by coming

949
00:49:10,120 --> 00:49:13,600
Speaker 7: out and you know, telling his kids about you. But

950
00:49:13,960 --> 00:49:17,920
Speaker 7: my other my adopted sister, has met her family, and

951
00:49:17,920 --> 00:49:20,960
Speaker 7: she's like, who cares. He's an old Like who cares?

952
00:49:21,239 --> 00:49:23,279
Speaker 7: Why do you care so much? And I don't. I

953
00:49:23,280 --> 00:49:26,319
Speaker 7: don't know, I shouldn't, I suppose, but I'm here to

954
00:49:26,360 --> 00:49:27,799
Speaker 7: hear your feedback, so let me know.

955
00:49:28,719 --> 00:49:32,160
Speaker 6: Yeah, it sounds like a lot of shame management, Like

956
00:49:32,520 --> 00:49:37,239
Speaker 6: I'm I'm going to manage his shame by not allowing

957
00:49:37,320 --> 00:49:39,880
Speaker 6: this thing to come out. That would make him feel

958
00:49:39,920 --> 00:49:42,400
Speaker 6: some sort of way and you know, be put in

959
00:49:42,480 --> 00:49:46,959
Speaker 6: position to have certain conversations and confrontations and this sort

960
00:49:47,000 --> 00:49:49,840
Speaker 6: of thing. So I will try to make him feel

961
00:49:49,880 --> 00:49:54,000
Speaker 6: comfortable by keeping this secret even though it's not my secret.

962
00:49:54,400 --> 00:49:55,600
Speaker 7: Yep. That about sums it up.

963
00:49:55,880 --> 00:49:59,080
Speaker 2: And also you can easily just reach out to them

964
00:49:59,160 --> 00:50:01,680
Speaker 2: and like leave the ball in their court. You know,

965
00:50:01,920 --> 00:50:04,840
Speaker 2: you're reaching out to them, you give them the information,

966
00:50:05,120 --> 00:50:08,719
Speaker 2: I'm your half sister, this is what happened, and then

967
00:50:08,719 --> 00:50:11,759
Speaker 2: you're covering both. I live in the same community, right,

968
00:50:11,880 --> 00:50:14,040
Speaker 2: is it the same town, same community.

969
00:50:14,000 --> 00:50:15,680
Speaker 7: A northern California fish.

970
00:50:15,800 --> 00:50:18,920
Speaker 2: Yes, you all live in northern California.

971
00:50:19,160 --> 00:50:19,560
Speaker 7: We do.

972
00:50:19,800 --> 00:50:23,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, So okay, I live in this area. And it's

973
00:50:23,080 --> 00:50:25,160
Speaker 2: totally up to you if you guys, because that way,

974
00:50:25,200 --> 00:50:27,520
Speaker 2: you're kind of accomplishing all of the things you need

975
00:50:27,560 --> 00:50:30,840
Speaker 2: to accomplish. You're not holding anyone's secret, you're not managing

976
00:50:30,840 --> 00:50:34,200
Speaker 2: anyone's shame, and you're doing outreach, you know, and actually

977
00:50:35,040 --> 00:50:37,359
Speaker 2: taking a step towards meeting them. And then it's in

978
00:50:37,400 --> 00:50:39,560
Speaker 2: their court if they want to meet you. You know,

979
00:50:39,600 --> 00:50:42,920
Speaker 2: you don't want to force that on anybody. If they're interested, great,

980
00:50:42,960 --> 00:50:45,719
Speaker 2: and if they're not interested. Okay, well you tried, right.

981
00:50:46,160 --> 00:50:49,040
Speaker 2: I mean, there's no harm, no foul really, and I agree.

982
00:50:49,320 --> 00:50:51,560
Speaker 2: I mean, who cares about your birth father and his

983
00:50:51,600 --> 00:50:54,120
Speaker 2: feelings like that? You have your own life and this

984
00:50:54,239 --> 00:50:54,960
Speaker 2: is your decision.

985
00:50:55,400 --> 00:50:57,440
Speaker 5: Yeah, And it sounds like you owe him very little,

986
00:50:57,640 --> 00:51:00,160
Speaker 5: like he seems like maybe he was a sperm donor basically,

987
00:51:00,239 --> 00:51:06,160
Speaker 5: and you know here are yeah, exactly exactly. So I

988
00:51:06,200 --> 00:51:07,319
Speaker 5: don't think you owe him much.

989
00:51:08,200 --> 00:51:10,240
Speaker 7: Do I give him a chance to tell them ahead

990
00:51:10,400 --> 00:51:12,680
Speaker 7: by letting this other cousin know that this is my

991
00:51:12,760 --> 00:51:14,960
Speaker 7: plan in like thirty days, I'm going to come out

992
00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:17,120
Speaker 7: and reach out to them and give him the chance

993
00:51:17,160 --> 00:51:19,520
Speaker 7: to come clean ahead of time. Or do I just

994
00:51:19,719 --> 00:51:21,880
Speaker 7: lay it up and let the chips fall where they may.

995
00:51:22,120 --> 00:51:26,480
Speaker 6: Well, he's had thirty years to tell them, true, that's

996
00:51:26,520 --> 00:51:28,799
Speaker 6: a very long time. I don't know if he needs

997
00:51:28,800 --> 00:51:30,520
Speaker 6: thirty more days understood.

998
00:51:30,880 --> 00:51:33,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like you don't really owe him anything. That's

999
00:51:33,880 --> 00:51:34,800
Speaker 2: another courtesy.

1000
00:51:35,160 --> 00:51:36,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I know.

1001
00:51:36,920 --> 00:51:39,560
Speaker 7: It's just so tied up in this whole, like, don't

1002
00:51:39,600 --> 00:51:43,400
Speaker 7: embarrass him, Like I don't know why he would be embarrassed.

1003
00:51:43,400 --> 00:51:46,920
Speaker 7: It was a mistake thirty years or fifty seven years ago.

1004
00:51:46,800 --> 00:51:50,520
Speaker 2: Now, Yeah, and there's not a lot of time. I

1005
00:51:50,520 --> 00:51:53,320
Speaker 2: mean there's I don't sorry, it just sounds so morbid.

1006
00:51:53,400 --> 00:51:54,919
Speaker 2: It's not that there's not a lot of time left,

1007
00:51:54,920 --> 00:51:57,279
Speaker 2: but like enough time has gone by, you know, like

1008
00:51:58,239 --> 00:52:02,760
Speaker 2: sure to avoid it. And you're saying that your grandmother

1009
00:52:02,880 --> 00:52:05,399
Speaker 2: said that to you, you know, don't embarrass him. And

1010
00:52:05,560 --> 00:52:08,520
Speaker 2: there always sentences that some adult has said to us

1011
00:52:08,560 --> 00:52:10,600
Speaker 2: that stick with us for the rest of our lives,

1012
00:52:10,840 --> 00:52:13,960
Speaker 2: that hold such little meaning. It's in a moment where

1013
00:52:14,000 --> 00:52:16,279
Speaker 2: they're saying something and sometimes they don't even know what

1014
00:52:16,320 --> 00:52:19,040
Speaker 2: they've said, or they'd have no idea how hurtful what

1015
00:52:19,080 --> 00:52:21,360
Speaker 2: they've said is. I can think of a couple of

1016
00:52:21,400 --> 00:52:23,560
Speaker 2: sentences my father said to me where I was like,

1017
00:52:23,600 --> 00:52:26,359
Speaker 2: I will never ever forget those two sentences. And I

1018
00:52:26,400 --> 00:52:28,200
Speaker 2: know he would probably want to take that back if

1019
00:52:28,239 --> 00:52:31,160
Speaker 2: he could, so I wouldn't put so much value in

1020
00:52:31,239 --> 00:52:33,280
Speaker 2: what someone said to you about another person.

1021
00:52:34,600 --> 00:52:39,160
Speaker 6: And if your grandmother could speak now, she might have

1022
00:52:39,280 --> 00:52:42,520
Speaker 6: something different to say about the situation. I mean she

1023
00:52:42,760 --> 00:52:47,480
Speaker 6: spoke from a place of being highly concerned about him

1024
00:52:47,520 --> 00:52:49,000
Speaker 6: and less concerned about you.

1025
00:52:49,400 --> 00:52:50,440
Speaker 1: And seeing how.

1026
00:52:50,280 --> 00:52:53,320
Speaker 6: You've struggled with this, probably over the last thirty years

1027
00:52:53,400 --> 00:52:56,040
Speaker 6: I think is you know, it's fair to say that

1028
00:52:56,800 --> 00:53:00,799
Speaker 6: perhaps she misspoke and your loyalty has been to her,

1029
00:53:01,080 --> 00:53:07,840
Speaker 6: But is she still alive? No? Okay, So that loyalty

1030
00:53:07,920 --> 00:53:10,600
Speaker 6: that you had with her, you know, it sounds like

1031
00:53:10,600 --> 00:53:14,719
Speaker 6: you've transferred it to your dad and you haven't even

1032
00:53:14,760 --> 00:53:16,560
Speaker 6: talked to him about this for him to say that

1033
00:53:16,600 --> 00:53:19,480
Speaker 6: there's any embarrassment or you know, any of these things

1034
00:53:19,520 --> 00:53:22,600
Speaker 6: that she assumes that he might feel. So it's you know,

1035
00:53:22,640 --> 00:53:25,680
Speaker 6: it's a lot of hearsay, and sometimes this is the

1036
00:53:25,760 --> 00:53:29,160
Speaker 6: thing that's needed to break situations open. It might explain

1037
00:53:29,200 --> 00:53:31,440
Speaker 6: a lot about who he is to his other children,

1038
00:53:31,600 --> 00:53:36,560
Speaker 6: like who knows. So I don't know if keeping this

1039
00:53:36,760 --> 00:53:39,320
Speaker 6: secret is something.

1040
00:53:39,000 --> 00:53:40,239
Speaker 1: That will feel good to you.

1041
00:53:40,840 --> 00:53:43,560
Speaker 5: Yeah, I love what you said about you know, she

1042
00:53:43,680 --> 00:53:45,600
Speaker 5: might have something different to say now because it was

1043
00:53:45,600 --> 00:53:48,880
Speaker 5: also probably a very different time culturally absolute when she

1044
00:53:49,040 --> 00:53:51,000
Speaker 5: said that, right, it was like back then it was

1045
00:53:51,040 --> 00:53:53,799
Speaker 5: this big, you know, shameful secret if you had a

1046
00:53:53,920 --> 00:53:55,800
Speaker 5: child out quote unquote out of wedlock.

1047
00:53:55,880 --> 00:53:57,279
Speaker 3: But you know, things are different now.

1048
00:53:57,800 --> 00:54:01,920
Speaker 7: Yeah, all right, all right, ladies, Okay, I guess I'm

1049
00:54:01,960 --> 00:54:02,880
Speaker 7: taking a plunge.

1050
00:54:03,120 --> 00:54:05,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, lady, go for it. Report back. Let us know

1051
00:54:05,320 --> 00:54:08,160
Speaker 2: how that works out. Okay, well, thank you so much

1052
00:54:08,160 --> 00:54:10,800
Speaker 2: for joining us. Thank you for all these wisdom pieces.

1053
00:54:10,840 --> 00:54:13,280
Speaker 2: I loved your book. I hope all of our listeners

1054
00:54:13,320 --> 00:54:15,080
Speaker 2: get it. And do you have another book?

1055
00:54:15,840 --> 00:54:16,120
Speaker 1: Yeah?

1056
00:54:16,200 --> 00:54:16,600
Speaker 2: I have.

1057
00:54:17,000 --> 00:54:17,960
Speaker 1: I have a few books.

1058
00:54:18,040 --> 00:54:21,320
Speaker 6: I have Set Boundaries Fine Peace, I have Drama Free,

1059
00:54:21,360 --> 00:54:24,080
Speaker 6: and I have one coming out consider This that will

1060
00:54:24,080 --> 00:54:25,359
Speaker 6: be out in October.

1061
00:54:25,600 --> 00:54:28,719
Speaker 2: Okay, greatly exciting. Okay, well, thank you so much for

1062
00:54:28,800 --> 00:54:29,520
Speaker 2: being here. Ndra.

1063
00:54:30,080 --> 00:54:33,160
Speaker 1: You're welcome and have a great day you as well.

1064
00:54:33,400 --> 00:54:36,120
Speaker 2: Okay, bye, listeners, we'll here, we'll hear you and see

1065
00:54:36,160 --> 00:54:38,400
Speaker 2: you next week. That's from you to us, not the

1066
00:54:38,440 --> 00:54:43,080
Speaker 2: other way around. Okay. So upcoming shows that I have

1067
00:54:43,239 --> 00:54:45,680
Speaker 2: you guys, I'm coming to Texas. I'm coming to Saint

1068
00:54:45,680 --> 00:54:48,120
Speaker 2: Louis and Kansas City, and then I will be in

1069
00:54:48,200 --> 00:54:52,560
Speaker 2: Las Vegas performing at the Chelsea Theater inside the Cosmopolitan Hotel.

1070
00:54:52,760 --> 00:54:55,520
Speaker 2: I'm coming to Brooklyn, New York at the King's Theater

1071
00:54:56,040 --> 00:55:00,440
Speaker 2: on November eighth, and I have tickets on sale throughout

1072
00:55:00,440 --> 00:55:03,680
Speaker 2: the end of the year in December. So if you're

1073
00:55:03,680 --> 00:55:07,800
Speaker 2: in a city like Philadelphia or Bethlehem or San Diego

1074
00:55:07,920 --> 00:55:12,560
Speaker 2: or New Orleans or Omaha. Check Chelseahandler dot com for tickets. Okay,

1075
00:55:12,960 --> 00:55:13,520
Speaker 2: if you'd.

1076
00:55:13,320 --> 00:55:15,799
Speaker 5: Like advice from Chelsea, shoot us an email at Dear

1077
00:55:15,880 --> 00:55:18,520
Speaker 5: Chelsea podcast at gmail dot com and be sure to

1078
00:55:18,520 --> 00:55:22,040
Speaker 5: include your phone number. Dear Chelsea is edited and engineered

1079
00:55:22,040 --> 00:55:25,319
Speaker 5: by Brad Dickert executive producer Catherine Law and be sure

1080
00:55:25,360 --> 00:55:30,360
Speaker 5: to check out our merch at Chelseahandler dot com