1 00:00:16,079 --> 00:00:18,920 Speaker 1: Hey, it's me Jenny Garth, one of your hosts here 2 00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:22,400 Speaker 1: at I Do Part two. We were talking with doctor 3 00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:25,400 Speaker 1: Hillary and there was just so much more that I 4 00:00:25,440 --> 00:00:29,600 Speaker 1: need to ask her, So let's jump back into that conversation. 5 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:32,720 Speaker 1: The hardest part for me was the kids of it 6 00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:36,479 Speaker 1: all and just that enormous guilt that I was ruining 7 00:00:36,520 --> 00:00:42,080 Speaker 1: their lives forever. And it was really really hard for me. 8 00:00:42,120 --> 00:00:44,520 Speaker 1: And I can remember the only thing, the only tool 9 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:49,199 Speaker 1: that I heard from somebody along the way was I 10 00:00:49,240 --> 00:00:51,800 Speaker 1: would say to them in those moments when they were 11 00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:54,880 Speaker 1: showing me how hurt and upset they were, I wish 12 00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:58,600 Speaker 1: I had a magic wand and I could wave it 13 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:01,320 Speaker 1: and everything would be okay. But I don't. 14 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:04,560 Speaker 2: But I love that you said this them, So you 15 00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:08,679 Speaker 2: did have tools that That's a version of what I'm 16 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:11,600 Speaker 2: really saying here. And this is the hard thing as 17 00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:15,840 Speaker 2: a parent that is part of the decision to divorce, 18 00:01:15,959 --> 00:01:18,680 Speaker 2: or at least had to agree to the divorce is 19 00:01:19,240 --> 00:01:23,240 Speaker 2: saying to our kids some version of I can't fix it. 20 00:01:23,240 --> 00:01:25,240 Speaker 2: It's the last thing we want to say to our kids. 21 00:01:25,319 --> 00:01:28,120 Speaker 2: But the best thing to say to our kids their 22 00:01:28,240 --> 00:01:31,200 Speaker 2: reality is that it's not okay, and They don't want 23 00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:33,600 Speaker 2: to hear all the ways that it's okay. They want 24 00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:36,160 Speaker 2: to hear that you get it, that it hurts, and 25 00:01:36,160 --> 00:01:41,040 Speaker 2: that it doesn't feel better yet. Will it feel better? Yes, absolutely, 26 00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:43,920 Speaker 2: it will feel better. It will feel better tomorrow in 27 00:01:43,959 --> 00:01:46,080 Speaker 2: a certain way, in a year, in a certain way, 28 00:01:46,080 --> 00:01:48,559 Speaker 2: in ten years, in a certain way. It will feel 29 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:52,080 Speaker 2: better along the trajectory, along the journey. We all know 30 00:01:52,360 --> 00:01:57,040 Speaker 2: adults who are children of divorce and they're okay, they 31 00:01:57,080 --> 00:02:01,760 Speaker 2: find their way right. But Parado kids have divorced find 32 00:02:01,760 --> 00:02:05,600 Speaker 2: their way much more easily if their trauma and their 33 00:02:05,640 --> 00:02:09,720 Speaker 2: ongoing pain is honored and acknowledged and validated and discussed 34 00:02:09,760 --> 00:02:15,000 Speaker 2: and not tried to make okay right, because that's their reality. 35 00:02:15,040 --> 00:02:16,560 Speaker 2: It's never going to be okay for a kid that 36 00:02:16,600 --> 00:02:18,280 Speaker 2: their mom and dad are together. I mean, there are 37 00:02:18,280 --> 00:02:21,320 Speaker 2: may be exceptions where something crazy toxic was going on, obviously, 38 00:02:21,440 --> 00:02:25,520 Speaker 2: but in general, yeah, I love that you put that 39 00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:28,880 Speaker 2: to them. So you you offer them something critical, which 40 00:02:28,919 --> 00:02:32,119 Speaker 2: is I see you, I know, and I can't fix it, 41 00:02:32,639 --> 00:02:35,120 Speaker 2: and I'm right here with you until it feels just 42 00:02:35,160 --> 00:02:36,600 Speaker 2: a little bit better. You know. 43 00:02:39,720 --> 00:02:44,040 Speaker 1: What do you think about bringing the new significant other 44 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:47,960 Speaker 1: to a holiday gathering to meet your family for the 45 00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:51,000 Speaker 1: first time. Is that appropriate or is that too much 46 00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:54,040 Speaker 1: for the new person to handle, too much for the 47 00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:55,480 Speaker 1: kids the family to handle. 48 00:02:55,880 --> 00:02:59,520 Speaker 2: Yeah. So, if you come to know me in general, 49 00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:02,640 Speaker 2: I'm a clinician that likes to hold both sides and 50 00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:04,960 Speaker 2: talk about both sides. I am not going to do 51 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:06,400 Speaker 2: that here. That is a hard no. 52 00:03:07,360 --> 00:03:13,280 Speaker 1: Oh my god, I failed. I met my new significant 53 00:03:13,320 --> 00:03:15,320 Speaker 1: other in the beginning of December and he was at 54 00:03:15,360 --> 00:03:20,160 Speaker 1: our house for Christmas. Oh man, Well. 55 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:28,760 Speaker 2: Look, having said that, are there stories where in theory 56 00:03:29,040 --> 00:03:32,160 Speaker 2: and in concept where I would say no and they 57 00:03:32,240 --> 00:03:38,160 Speaker 2: work out beautifully? Absolutely? I mean I have clients who 58 00:03:38,720 --> 00:03:40,680 Speaker 2: meet someone to introduce them to their kids, like the 59 00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:45,480 Speaker 2: next week, have them move in two weeks later, and 60 00:03:45,480 --> 00:03:51,120 Speaker 2: and how the beautiful mats became loving. So but let 61 00:03:51,160 --> 00:03:53,880 Speaker 2: me tell you why I'm saying now, and that is 62 00:03:54,640 --> 00:03:57,720 Speaker 2: the introduction. It's really about the kids. If there's no 63 00:03:57,840 --> 00:03:59,960 Speaker 2: kids involved, yeah, I mean, if there's no kids involve, 64 00:04:01,040 --> 00:04:02,960 Speaker 2: whatever feels right to the adults involved, I think it's 65 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:05,560 Speaker 2: just fine. I may have like an opinion one way 66 00:04:05,640 --> 00:04:07,560 Speaker 2: or the other, but I think it's just fine when 67 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:11,520 Speaker 2: there's kids involved, because it bumps up against what I 68 00:04:11,560 --> 00:04:14,680 Speaker 2: was just talking about, which is like something much deeper 69 00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:18,039 Speaker 2: in our minds. Were like whatever, it's like two hours 70 00:04:18,080 --> 00:04:20,760 Speaker 2: over like a turkey and a couple of like eggnogs. 71 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:23,159 Speaker 2: It's all good. Other cousins will be there, It'll be 72 00:04:23,200 --> 00:04:26,760 Speaker 2: like so fun, right. But because it bumps up against 73 00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:30,520 Speaker 2: this like deeper, this isn't my dad, my mom is 74 00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:34,760 Speaker 2: moving on it, it sort of kicks up that, like, 75 00:04:34,839 --> 00:04:39,080 Speaker 2: my mom and dad aren't together. Having your kids meet 76 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:43,040 Speaker 2: your significant other in a very small dose, in a 77 00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:48,040 Speaker 2: super chill environment is what I recommend as a first set. 78 00:04:48,279 --> 00:04:52,440 Speaker 2: So like it's in neutral territory, you know, over a 79 00:04:52,440 --> 00:04:54,839 Speaker 2: coffee or a quick ice cream, depending out of age, 80 00:04:54,880 --> 00:04:59,080 Speaker 2: and it's like an hour and it's like the discussion 81 00:04:59,120 --> 00:05:02,080 Speaker 2: beforehand is version of what I was just talking about. Like, 82 00:05:02,839 --> 00:05:06,280 Speaker 2: so you've known about Joe for a long time, but 83 00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:09,880 Speaker 2: this is different. I'm telling you he's so important to 84 00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:12,120 Speaker 2: me that I want you, who was the most important 85 00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:14,160 Speaker 2: person to be in the world, to meet him, and 86 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:17,840 Speaker 2: that that's a big message. Well bring up a lot 87 00:05:17,839 --> 00:05:21,640 Speaker 2: of feelings, you know, really, and it's adjusted for the 88 00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:24,679 Speaker 2: kids sixteen versus six, But you get what I'm saying. 89 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:28,760 Speaker 2: So wow, that's a that's a that's that's a that's 90 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:30,960 Speaker 2: a moment. You know, how do you feel about it? 91 00:05:31,360 --> 00:05:34,520 Speaker 2: Here's my idea. We're going to meet Joe at the 92 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:38,120 Speaker 2: yogurt shop tomorrow after school for an hour. We're just 93 00:05:38,160 --> 00:05:39,800 Speaker 2: gonna have an ice cream and you'll get to stay 94 00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:43,440 Speaker 2: hi and you can show him your favorite doll and 95 00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:46,600 Speaker 2: then like that's it. Then maybe we'll see him again 96 00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:49,599 Speaker 2: another time after right, And so that it's it's it's 97 00:05:49,720 --> 00:05:53,920 Speaker 2: really low pressure. It has a finite aspect to it 98 00:05:54,160 --> 00:06:00,240 Speaker 2: and feels kid centered, which I think matters that. It's like, 99 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:02,159 Speaker 2: I mean, you're not going to say what I'm going 100 00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:05,080 Speaker 2: to say right now, but some version of like your 101 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:08,599 Speaker 2: comfort matters to me, your feeling state matters to me. 102 00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:12,760 Speaker 2: So this is slow, this is intentional, This is no pressure, 103 00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:18,839 Speaker 2: and the meeting itself is really more about Joe meeting 104 00:06:18,880 --> 00:06:23,159 Speaker 2: the kids versus the kids just witnessing Mom with Joe 105 00:06:23,800 --> 00:06:26,480 Speaker 2: in their new relationship. It's a way to like bring 106 00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:29,880 Speaker 2: them in as a part of it as opposed to 107 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:30,960 Speaker 2: just like a witness of it. 108 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:34,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, because they are a part of it. 109 00:06:34,640 --> 00:06:38,680 Speaker 2: Absolutely, That's that's the intention. And so slow rolling it 110 00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:41,440 Speaker 2: in the way that I was just describing, I think 111 00:06:41,640 --> 00:06:46,400 Speaker 2: sets up the entire system for the most success, but 112 00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:51,279 Speaker 2: particularly that relationship between the kids and Joe, because it 113 00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:55,360 Speaker 2: doesn't feel like too much at once and like a here, 114 00:06:56,160 --> 00:07:01,960 Speaker 2: he's here, and accept him. Right. It's it's the initial 115 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:05,200 Speaker 2: meeting is not about the kid witnessing your connection with Joe, 116 00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:09,240 Speaker 2: or rather about Joe and the kids just get to 117 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:11,160 Speaker 2: know each other, to know each other, and then the 118 00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:14,600 Speaker 2: next time it's two hours you go bowling, and then 119 00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:17,400 Speaker 2: the next time it's a movie and dinner, and then 120 00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:22,200 Speaker 2: from there you're starting to expand. Again, this is super prescriptive. 121 00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:24,840 Speaker 2: It can work in an absence of all of this, 122 00:07:25,040 --> 00:07:27,840 Speaker 2: but from a clinical standpoint, now that we have the 123 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:31,160 Speaker 2: information we've been talking about, I imagine what I'm saying 124 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:34,040 Speaker 2: makes sense and that ideally, and if you're looking for 125 00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:36,000 Speaker 2: like a little bit of a map, that's the one 126 00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:36,720 Speaker 2: I would pick. 127 00:07:37,240 --> 00:07:41,680 Speaker 1: That's a good map. Oh I was flying mapless. Okay, 128 00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:44,800 Speaker 1: what do you think about people who have a checklist 129 00:07:44,840 --> 00:07:49,400 Speaker 1: of must haves in a partner? I know I in 130 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:52,480 Speaker 1: my work. After my divorce, I had to sit down 131 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:56,600 Speaker 1: and think about what was important to me looking forward 132 00:07:56,640 --> 00:08:00,000 Speaker 1: into another relationship, and my therapist at that time called 133 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:04,560 Speaker 1: at my non negotiables, where that there were certain things 134 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:09,040 Speaker 1: that were very very important to me to build that relationship. 135 00:08:08,480 --> 00:08:12,840 Speaker 2: On exactly the phrase I was going to introduce as well, 136 00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:16,000 Speaker 2: non negotiables and just to think more about it for 137 00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:19,240 Speaker 2: the folks listening, these are things that like they're just 138 00:08:19,280 --> 00:08:25,040 Speaker 2: deal breakers that have now decided post divorce with great 139 00:08:25,080 --> 00:08:30,040 Speaker 2: intention and analysis, you cannot live without, you cannot endure. 140 00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:34,480 Speaker 2: And I mean those might be things anything from he 141 00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:37,320 Speaker 2: lives a certain number of miles away, to he does 142 00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:40,439 Speaker 2: have kids he doesn't have kids, to he cares about communication, 143 00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:45,000 Speaker 2: to his adventures, lifestyle, whatever the things are, and that 144 00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:53,000 Speaker 2: is personal and concrete. So concretize those non negotiables, those 145 00:08:53,040 --> 00:08:55,480 Speaker 2: deal breakers for yourself. And it sounds like you did 146 00:08:55,800 --> 00:08:59,319 Speaker 2: in a way that is externalized. Don't let it be 147 00:08:59,400 --> 00:09:02,760 Speaker 2: vague and more like, really decide what are those things 148 00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:04,760 Speaker 2: and if you sit down with your piece of paper 149 00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:07,760 Speaker 2: or you're fried or your therapist, I don't know. Oh, 150 00:09:08,440 --> 00:09:11,120 Speaker 2: I think it's one thing yesterday and one thing tomorrow. 151 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:14,480 Speaker 2: That's okay. I'm not surprised you just got out of divorce. 152 00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:17,640 Speaker 2: It's static and you're trying to find your feet on 153 00:09:17,679 --> 00:09:20,160 Speaker 2: the ground. So don't despair if you don't know or 154 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:23,400 Speaker 2: it keeps changing, but don't give up on it. Right, 155 00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:26,560 Speaker 2: It's a process. And like we were talking about at 156 00:09:26,559 --> 00:09:29,240 Speaker 2: the beginning, if you think your non negotiables are you know, 157 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:31,559 Speaker 2: these top three things, and then you meet someone and 158 00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:34,120 Speaker 2: he has kids and you were sure you didn't want 159 00:09:34,160 --> 00:09:36,200 Speaker 2: to be with someone who has kids. But like all 160 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:39,240 Speaker 2: the other things are so important, let it be fluid. 161 00:09:40,760 --> 00:09:45,800 Speaker 2: Don't make it all encompassing and all powerful in a 162 00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:50,400 Speaker 2: way that disallows you to be uh, a version of 163 00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:55,280 Speaker 2: like contrived spontanet at spontaneous. Right, all those things to 164 00:09:55,360 --> 00:09:58,840 Speaker 2: shift because you will be growing and shifting post divorce. 165 00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:03,520 Speaker 2: So start the process, but allow it to flow and 166 00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:07,360 Speaker 2: shift and change, and don't shame or criticize yourself if 167 00:10:07,360 --> 00:10:08,840 Speaker 2: it does, in fact, expect it to. 168 00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:14,120 Speaker 1: Yes, should you tell the person about your non negotiables 169 00:10:14,280 --> 00:10:15,600 Speaker 1: or should you keep them to yourself? 170 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:18,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a good question. I mean I might not 171 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:20,319 Speaker 2: just like present it. 172 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:25,160 Speaker 1: It's like a list. Here, read this and then just 173 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:27,120 Speaker 1: sign at the bottom that you actually read it. 174 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:32,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, let me just text you this bullet contract. So 175 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:40,360 Speaker 2: if you are sure that you want to be with 176 00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:46,880 Speaker 2: someone who is open to having children. That seems like 177 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:50,440 Speaker 2: a non negotiable that is worthy of sharing. You know, 178 00:10:50,520 --> 00:10:51,880 Speaker 2: I'm not sure you want to use that as like 179 00:10:51,920 --> 00:10:56,720 Speaker 2: your date opener. But again, I would embody that truth 180 00:10:57,400 --> 00:11:00,000 Speaker 2: even in that first meeting, certainly by the second meeting, 181 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:03,760 Speaker 2: and it's and I would love for people to When 182 00:11:03,760 --> 00:11:05,960 Speaker 2: I use the word embody, it's very deliberate. I don't 183 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:08,079 Speaker 2: want anyone shrinking and like, well, I just kind of 184 00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:09,840 Speaker 2: want to be with some of them as kids. I 185 00:11:09,880 --> 00:11:13,679 Speaker 2: want you to sit in your truth and try it on, 186 00:11:14,520 --> 00:11:17,680 Speaker 2: even if it changes six months from now. I just 187 00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:19,560 Speaker 2: know in this season of my life, I'm really clear 188 00:11:19,600 --> 00:11:21,040 Speaker 2: I want to be with someone who wants to kids 189 00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:23,880 Speaker 2: as much as I do. It's just it's just something 190 00:11:23,920 --> 00:11:27,240 Speaker 2: I'm so clear on, which feels kind of great. Right. 191 00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:32,360 Speaker 2: There's no apology, there's no further explanation. This is my truth, 192 00:11:32,920 --> 00:11:37,079 Speaker 2: and if the person can't promise or is turned off 193 00:11:37,120 --> 00:11:40,200 Speaker 2: by that, we can thank them for giving us this 194 00:11:40,280 --> 00:11:42,959 Speaker 2: feedback quickly so we don't have to carry on any longer. 195 00:11:43,400 --> 00:11:46,120 Speaker 2: And that might be complex and disappointing and feel rejecting 196 00:11:46,160 --> 00:11:49,160 Speaker 2: in all those things. But if our goal is to 197 00:11:49,240 --> 00:11:53,200 Speaker 2: be embodied right, is to figure out what resonates for 198 00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:57,360 Speaker 2: us and live a life that finally feels like it's 199 00:11:57,480 --> 00:12:01,320 Speaker 2: uplifting and safe and grounded, we must put these things 200 00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:04,319 Speaker 2: out there in this embodied way. This is my truth 201 00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:06,880 Speaker 2: and I'm not going to apologize for it, and I 202 00:12:06,920 --> 00:12:11,760 Speaker 2: would attach that same mindset to really any non negotiable that, like, 203 00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:15,240 Speaker 2: don't apologize for it. You know, I want to be 204 00:12:15,280 --> 00:12:17,880 Speaker 2: with someone that wants to travel three times a year 205 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:21,840 Speaker 2: I do. Might seem simple, might seem small, might seem nuanced, 206 00:12:21,880 --> 00:12:25,240 Speaker 2: but that's my truth for now. How do you feel 207 00:12:25,280 --> 00:12:30,000 Speaker 2: about travel right that you're just embodying who you are 208 00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:34,080 Speaker 2: at this season and trying on how it feels to 209 00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:36,800 Speaker 2: show up that way. 210 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:48,640 Speaker 1: I had something so it felt so insignificant, but to 211 00:12:48,679 --> 00:12:52,200 Speaker 1: me it felt it was important. I didn't want to 212 00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:53,000 Speaker 1: be with a smoker. 213 00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:53,880 Speaker 2: Yep. 214 00:12:54,280 --> 00:12:56,240 Speaker 1: I didn't want to be with somebody who smoked and 215 00:12:56,280 --> 00:12:59,840 Speaker 1: then for the rest of our lives was sick from it. 216 00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:02,880 Speaker 1: Always had that smell like it was really important to 217 00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:06,320 Speaker 1: me and I and when I met Dave, he smoked, 218 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:11,560 Speaker 1: and so I immediately thought, oh, well, he's not the 219 00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:16,160 Speaker 1: one for me because he smokes silly as that is. 220 00:13:16,880 --> 00:13:22,719 Speaker 1: And I remember asking, is quitting smoking something that you 221 00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:25,520 Speaker 1: might ever be interested or open to? Do you want 222 00:13:25,520 --> 00:13:28,560 Speaker 1: to smoke forever? What what is it with you and smoking? 223 00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:33,199 Speaker 1: Like I had to instead of just shutting it off 224 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:36,320 Speaker 1: for myself, I had to do what you said, get 225 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:40,400 Speaker 1: curious and embody what I wanted, but at the same 226 00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:42,800 Speaker 1: time be curious about what he wanted so that I 227 00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:44,360 Speaker 1: could get that solid information. 228 00:13:44,960 --> 00:13:49,600 Speaker 2: Right, I know that's exactly what I'm talking about. You 229 00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:51,920 Speaker 2: have to show up for yourself and it's not easy. 230 00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:54,000 Speaker 2: That kind of self advocacy. 231 00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:54,559 Speaker 1: Is very scary. 232 00:13:54,760 --> 00:13:59,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, scary, and that feeling I want your listeners to 233 00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:02,199 Speaker 2: understand is ubiquitous. There's nothing wrong with you if that 234 00:14:02,280 --> 00:14:05,320 Speaker 2: feels scary, It is scary to stand in your own 235 00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:08,880 Speaker 2: truth and declare them with risk. Right, he could have 236 00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:12,280 Speaker 2: turned around and said, I'm going to keep doing this. 237 00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:14,680 Speaker 2: If that's a deal breaker for you, then I guess 238 00:14:14,679 --> 00:14:16,319 Speaker 2: this is where we part ways and that might have 239 00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:21,200 Speaker 2: been devastating, right, But to pursue something that is like 240 00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:24,240 Speaker 2: deeply resonating to our soul, which I think is the 241 00:14:24,880 --> 00:14:27,760 Speaker 2: pursuit post divorce. Right, If we're going to get divorced 242 00:14:27,840 --> 00:14:29,600 Speaker 2: and we're going to go through that trauma. We better 243 00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:33,840 Speaker 2: be pursuing something that is like soul worthy, right, you 244 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:35,560 Speaker 2: better be. We're going to go through all of that, 245 00:14:35,760 --> 00:14:39,440 Speaker 2: And so having a conversation like that's, yes, scary, nothing 246 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:41,640 Speaker 2: wrong with you. If it's anxiety provoking, all you got 247 00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:43,680 Speaker 2: to do is eke it out I do. You don't 248 00:14:43,680 --> 00:14:46,920 Speaker 2: have to feel confident about it, you don't have to 249 00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:48,680 Speaker 2: not feel scared about it. You just got to get 250 00:14:48,680 --> 00:14:52,320 Speaker 2: the words out right, conceice it until it starts to 251 00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:56,440 Speaker 2: feel a little less scary. But I just love that 252 00:14:56,480 --> 00:15:01,360 Speaker 2: word embodied. It's like just reflecting your truth and allowing 253 00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:03,720 Speaker 2: for that to shift and change and be influenced by 254 00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:07,160 Speaker 2: safe others in our own you know, sort of growth. 255 00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:10,560 Speaker 2: But that's the exact example, a version of the example 256 00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:11,160 Speaker 2: I had in mind. 257 00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:14,400 Speaker 1: A dating coach said that you should only go on 258 00:15:14,440 --> 00:15:16,560 Speaker 1: a date with someone once a week when you're getting 259 00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:18,800 Speaker 1: to know them. Do you think that's a good rule. 260 00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:25,400 Speaker 2: In spite of what I've just said about I've said 261 00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:29,720 Speaker 2: a number of things that are prescriptive in this case. No, 262 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:37,600 Speaker 2: I don't like over prescribing dating posts. Divorce what it 263 00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:40,480 Speaker 2: should or shouldn't look like. I think it induces a 264 00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:44,800 Speaker 2: lot of confusion and shame and self criticism. Look in 265 00:15:45,320 --> 00:15:48,920 Speaker 2: its extreme, if you're going out four to five nights 266 00:15:48,960 --> 00:15:51,720 Speaker 2: a week and not getting a lot of sleep and 267 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:56,280 Speaker 2: drinking and in and around lots of different guys, and 268 00:15:56,760 --> 00:15:59,400 Speaker 2: that dynamic starts to feel like a little messy and 269 00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:02,800 Speaker 2: overwhelmed and the opposite of grounding. I think that's something 270 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:07,200 Speaker 2: to look at. That pattern probably is an ideal in general, 271 00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:10,280 Speaker 2: and certainly not right in the aftermath of divorce. But 272 00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:14,600 Speaker 2: I think having like a once a week is the limit, 273 00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:19,080 Speaker 2: and if more, that's bad. If it less, that's bad. 274 00:16:20,240 --> 00:16:24,840 Speaker 2: It is overly prescriptive and not useful and ends up 275 00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:28,400 Speaker 2: making people feel bad. I'm not really interested in. 276 00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:33,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, the rules of it all are not Yeah, yeah. 277 00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:37,200 Speaker 2: That's right. So again intuition, you know, back to like, Yeah, 278 00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:39,760 Speaker 2: so lately I've been going out two three times a week? 279 00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:42,440 Speaker 2: How does that feel to me? Is it starting to 280 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:44,440 Speaker 2: feel like I don't have as much time for self 281 00:16:44,440 --> 00:16:49,800 Speaker 2: care or sleep or my kids? No shame, no criticism, Yeah, 282 00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:52,280 Speaker 2: maybe a little. I wonder if I should try twice 283 00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:55,360 Speaker 2: a week. I wonder what that'll feel like right, you know, 284 00:16:55,440 --> 00:17:00,520 Speaker 2: and just being curious as opposed to the rules, which 285 00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:04,679 Speaker 2: I think end up feeling confusing and shaming. I mean, 286 00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:06,520 Speaker 2: once a week get you decide that and that feels 287 00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:09,399 Speaker 2: right to you, that's great. But if you decide to 288 00:17:09,440 --> 00:17:11,440 Speaker 2: do more when you're getting to know someone, I think 289 00:17:11,480 --> 00:17:18,360 Speaker 2: that's fine. Look, there's the cliche trajectory which plays out 290 00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:23,240 Speaker 2: often enough that post divorce, you meet someone and filling 291 00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:27,119 Speaker 2: in space with that person makes you feel less hard 292 00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:31,639 Speaker 2: things and you aren't thinking about your loneliness and your 293 00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:35,280 Speaker 2: confusion and your anger and your trauma. We want to 294 00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:38,440 Speaker 2: watch out for that. If we are unable to sort 295 00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:43,119 Speaker 2: of reserve time for self reflection to feel all the 296 00:17:43,160 --> 00:17:48,000 Speaker 2: messy feelings, and the main culprit is dating and the 297 00:17:48,080 --> 00:17:52,200 Speaker 2: time spent there, that's something to consider. Getting through divorce 298 00:17:52,440 --> 00:18:00,560 Speaker 2: in a way that is healing and stabilizing requires time 299 00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:04,000 Speaker 2: to reflect and heal and feel all those tricky emotions. 300 00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:05,919 Speaker 2: I don't want to equate it to like, so if 301 00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:08,040 Speaker 2: you're going out more than once a week, that means 302 00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:10,880 Speaker 2: you can't do that. I just want to be conscious 303 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:13,719 Speaker 2: about it. Am I giving myself time and space and 304 00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:17,679 Speaker 2: mobilizing resources to help myself heal. And if the answer 305 00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:21,840 Speaker 2: is no or like a diminishing yes, we should look 306 00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:24,159 Speaker 2: at that and eliminate the things that are or at 307 00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:26,080 Speaker 2: least modify the things that are getting in the way. 308 00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:38,880 Speaker 1: Right, speaking of rules, what do you think about books 309 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:41,600 Speaker 1: like the rules or men are from Mars and women 310 00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:45,680 Speaker 1: are for wherever other planet? I can't remember Venus Venus? 311 00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:46,000 Speaker 2: Yes? 312 00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:47,920 Speaker 1: Today? Do those kinds of books help? 313 00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:51,000 Speaker 2: Look? I mean I think some of those concepts were 314 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:56,080 Speaker 2: created because of patterns that repeat over time. I mean, 315 00:18:56,320 --> 00:18:58,480 Speaker 2: none of us are strangers for the idea that like 316 00:18:58,560 --> 00:19:03,080 Speaker 2: men and women oftentimes think differently and are or less 317 00:19:03,080 --> 00:19:05,760 Speaker 2: emotional about certain things, et cetera. So I think having 318 00:19:05,800 --> 00:19:08,680 Speaker 2: like a language to talk about it is it can 319 00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:13,160 Speaker 2: be useful, like with ourselves between friends with a partner. 320 00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:18,600 Speaker 2: So they have utility because they make those things concretized 321 00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:20,440 Speaker 2: in a way that like we can wrap our brain 322 00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:22,600 Speaker 2: around as opposed to just like the feeling of all 323 00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:29,840 Speaker 2: those experiences. Having said that, I think dialogue and conversation 324 00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:33,919 Speaker 2: and nuance and like the self check in pattern that 325 00:19:33,960 --> 00:19:38,320 Speaker 2: we're talking about is your best tool, not a like 326 00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:42,439 Speaker 2: chapter three pages. 327 00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:44,400 Speaker 1: You know, let me just hold on. 328 00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:49,560 Speaker 2: This is what must be happening. Instead, look in yourself, 329 00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:52,399 Speaker 2: what is happening? What do I understand about it? How 330 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:55,199 Speaker 2: does it feel in my body? If it's confusing, can 331 00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:58,040 Speaker 2: I say more about it? And what's ever going on 332 00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:01,119 Speaker 2: with the person in front of us being able? I 333 00:20:01,119 --> 00:20:03,640 Speaker 2: mean it depends on the situation. Show I'm over generalizing, 334 00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:05,600 Speaker 2: but to do a version of what you said you 335 00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:08,600 Speaker 2: did in your circumstance, like huh, I'm feeling this thing 336 00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:11,280 Speaker 2: or I'm thinking about this thing, like I just want 337 00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:14,240 Speaker 2: to say it out loud. What do you think? You 338 00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:17,639 Speaker 2: know that we if we get our head to into 339 00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:23,600 Speaker 2: books or like Instagram quotes or it can feel very 340 00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:28,200 Speaker 2: confusing and overwhelming when the answers eventually come within ourselves 341 00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:31,879 Speaker 2: and in dialogue with our potential partners, and if our 342 00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:36,600 Speaker 2: potential partners are unable to sustain a dialogue that is 343 00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:40,360 Speaker 2: delivered in a respectful, digestible way, we need to think 344 00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:40,760 Speaker 2: about that. 345 00:20:42,040 --> 00:20:45,360 Speaker 1: If you've broken up, if you're going through a divorce 346 00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:50,520 Speaker 1: and you're having trouble, you're having a hard time getting 347 00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:53,880 Speaker 1: over your ex spouse, what should we do? I mean, 348 00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:57,560 Speaker 1: what questions should we be asking ourselves so that we 349 00:20:57,640 --> 00:21:01,800 Speaker 1: don't stay stuck. That's the worst when you just can't 350 00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:02,600 Speaker 1: get over it. 351 00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:08,679 Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yes, it is the worst. It's deeply painful 352 00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:11,439 Speaker 2: to go through all the things that we're talking about 353 00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:12,920 Speaker 2: and still of the. 354 00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:18,480 Speaker 1: Person, especially if that person is already dating someone else 355 00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:19,320 Speaker 1: moved on. 356 00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:26,560 Speaker 2: It's devastating. And I'll start there, and it's not a 357 00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:32,440 Speaker 2: pleasant concept to consider, but it's like a death that 358 00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:36,360 Speaker 2: induces an incredible amount of grief and all of the 359 00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:39,840 Speaker 2: stages that go with grief, all the anger, all the denial, 360 00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:41,880 Speaker 2: all the bargaining, you know, all that stuff that is 361 00:21:42,359 --> 00:21:45,800 Speaker 2: a little bit cliche, but like, oh so true, you know. 362 00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:49,080 Speaker 2: And there's no avoiding that. There's no amount of like 363 00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:55,960 Speaker 2: dating or bashing him, or a therapy or whatever other 364 00:21:56,119 --> 00:21:59,399 Speaker 2: tools you might mobilize that can be a shortcut of that. 365 00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:01,560 Speaker 2: You're gonna mon it, you're going to agrieve it, and 366 00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:04,399 Speaker 2: you're going to feel the things. And that season of 367 00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:06,760 Speaker 2: life is a little bit of a dark night of 368 00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:10,560 Speaker 2: the soul, right, it is really, really, really had to 369 00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:15,600 Speaker 2: get through so paradoxically, leaning in here it is here, 370 00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:18,760 Speaker 2: it is, I'm leaning in and I'm taking care of 371 00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:21,639 Speaker 2: myself in every way I can think of, and not 372 00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:25,040 Speaker 2: expecting it to feel like better or okay in the 373 00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:29,600 Speaker 2: short run. And I'm like allowing myself to sit in 374 00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:33,520 Speaker 2: it so that as it begins to pass through, which 375 00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:37,160 Speaker 2: it always does. I remind clients all the time. Name 376 00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:42,159 Speaker 2: a feeling state you've had that hasn't changed eventually, No 377 00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:46,560 Speaker 2: such thing. It does change. It does change, and more eventually, 378 00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:48,840 Speaker 2: maybe not tomorrow or even like six months from now 379 00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:52,679 Speaker 2: or twelve months now, shipped and change eventually. And so 380 00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:55,880 Speaker 2: it's about sitting in it, allowing it to come up 381 00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:58,680 Speaker 2: and out from your body in a safe way, and 382 00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:01,920 Speaker 2: just like I said, curate, cultivating as many resources as 383 00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:04,560 Speaker 2: possible as you get through it, being really kind and 384 00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:08,400 Speaker 2: graceful to yourself. And when you have time, I shouldn't 385 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:12,360 Speaker 2: say time, when you have space to start gently thinking 386 00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:17,280 Speaker 2: about why this person is not a safe choice for 387 00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:21,800 Speaker 2: you any longer. Right, And if the only thing on 388 00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:24,880 Speaker 2: the list is because they don't choose me, that's enough. 389 00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:28,640 Speaker 2: That's not a safe choice for you anymore, even if 390 00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:30,760 Speaker 2: everything else about them is amazing, which is usually not 391 00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:34,359 Speaker 2: the case. But even if it is, that renders it 392 00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:38,000 Speaker 2: an unsafe choice for you. And that doesn't mean it's 393 00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:41,719 Speaker 2: easily accepted, but it's something to start orienting yourself around. 394 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:45,200 Speaker 2: I can't choose, it doesn't choose me. I can't invest 395 00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:50,520 Speaker 2: in something that isn't reciprocated, and gently starting to understand 396 00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:52,800 Speaker 2: the part of you that's willing to do that for two. 397 00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:56,560 Speaker 1: Oover reminds me just like this hard this hard truth 398 00:23:56,600 --> 00:23:58,679 Speaker 1: that I had when I was going through it was 399 00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:02,240 Speaker 1: the therapist saying, Jenny, why would you love someone who 400 00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:06,520 Speaker 1: doesn't love you back? And that resonated for me in 401 00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:11,720 Speaker 1: my times of missing and wanting and attaching to things. 402 00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:13,919 Speaker 1: I would say that to myself and I would be like, 403 00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:17,760 Speaker 1: I would hate hearing it. Then it started to become like, Okay, 404 00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:20,280 Speaker 1: this is a feeling. It's going to pass. This is temporary. 405 00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:22,840 Speaker 1: I know this only lasts for like three minutes, this 406 00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:26,560 Speaker 1: intense feeling of hurt and pain, And then I would 407 00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:29,880 Speaker 1: replace that with he is not an option for you anymore. 408 00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:33,160 Speaker 1: In my mind, that is not an option, So look 409 00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:33,800 Speaker 1: somewhere else. 410 00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:38,400 Speaker 2: Yes, it is a deeply painful process to not be chosen, 411 00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:44,200 Speaker 2: and there's no way around that. But recognizing that truth 412 00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:48,840 Speaker 2: and building a relationship with it is critical because we 413 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:54,119 Speaker 2: can't let ourselves orient our heart, mind, body, sould is 414 00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:58,080 Speaker 2: someone who doesn't choose us. It's the ultimate self betrayal. Yeah. 415 00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:02,639 Speaker 2: So it is with great care that we continue to 416 00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:06,639 Speaker 2: like gently pick ourselves up and place ourselves on another path, 417 00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:09,639 Speaker 2: because that path we don't get to be chosen, we 418 00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:12,199 Speaker 2: don't get the love that we deserve. And it's like 419 00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:15,639 Speaker 2: with great sadness and despair to remove ourselves there. But 420 00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:16,840 Speaker 2: we must, we. 421 00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:21,600 Speaker 1: Must, we must survive. Yeah. I love our conversation. Thank 422 00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:22,280 Speaker 1: you so much. 423 00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:25,359 Speaker 2: Oh, have such a pleasure, such an important conversation you 424 00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:25,800 Speaker 2: have I live. 425 00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:29,000 Speaker 1: Yes, thank you for being with us. Yes, of course 426 00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:33,800 Speaker 1: that conversation with doctor Hillary was so incredibly helpful for 427 00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:37,320 Speaker 1: even me. I've been divorced for ten plus years and 428 00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:39,119 Speaker 1: I got so much out of it. And I really 429 00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:43,920 Speaker 1: hope that everybody listening who is in the position of 430 00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:48,760 Speaker 1: thinking about a divorce, in a divorce, just had a divorce. 431 00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:52,520 Speaker 1: I hope that you got some really good info from 432 00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:57,560 Speaker 1: this pod. And I just I know you can do this, 433 00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:01,240 Speaker 1: you will get past this, and we are here to 434 00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:04,840 Speaker 1: help you. So please please, if you want to call 435 00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:08,280 Speaker 1: us for advice one eight four four four I do pod. 436 00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:12,280 Speaker 1: That's eight four four four four three six seven sixty three, 437 00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:17,560 Speaker 1: or you can email us at idopod at iHeartRadio dot com, 438 00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:21,520 Speaker 1: follow us on Instagram and TikTok at ID Part two pod, 439 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:24,960 Speaker 1: and be sure to check out all the information in 440 00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:27,040 Speaker 1: our show notes. Make sure to rate us and review us. 441 00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:31,400 Speaker 1: I Do Part two an iHeartRadio podcast where falling in 442 00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:33,359 Speaker 1: love is the main objective.