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Speaker 1: Welcome to the short stuff. I'm josh, there's shock, We

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Speaker 1: got a clam diggers on and we're ready to go

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Speaker 1: to do a little mud larking, which just happens to

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Speaker 1: be the subject of this short stuff. Have you ever

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Speaker 1: heard of this term? I want to say yes, but

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Speaker 1: sometimes my brain makes up memories just to be cool.

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Speaker 2: I'm not sure I would assume that etymology edic even

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Speaker 2: look it up, because I just assumed that mud larking

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Speaker 2: was just having a lark in the mud. It's got

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Speaker 2: to be it, right, Or.

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Speaker 1: Maybe you flitter about from one place to another like

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Speaker 1: a lark in the mud. Okay, I like them both.

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Speaker 1: Can we both win like a soccer game? Sure? I

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Speaker 1: love it.

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Speaker 2: I love it. Mud larking is a thing that we're

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Speaker 2: talking about that. It's a term you probably hear in

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Speaker 2: England more readily and specifically even maybe London. Originally in

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Speaker 2: the eighteenth or nineteenth century, and back then it was

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Speaker 2: basically when people of lesser means would walk along the

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Speaker 2: mud banks at low tide of the river Thames.

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Speaker 1: It's Thames right, Thames, Thames.

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Speaker 2: Thames, the Thames and collect stuff to try and sell.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, everything from little bits of rope to coins. If

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Speaker 1: they were lucky, anything somebody would buy. That's how some

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Speaker 1: people actually supported themselves in the nineteenth century. Fast forward

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Speaker 1: to today, I'm guessing starting around the seventies, maybe the eighties.

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Speaker 1: Now it's just a pastime. I don't think anybody supports

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Speaker 1: themselves mudlarking any longer. It's just a hobby, akin to

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Speaker 1: people who are beachcombers with metal detectors on.

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Speaker 2: The bill, or like magnet fishing.

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Speaker 1: Yes, similar to that. We actually did a short stuff

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Speaker 1: on that, remember that. Yeah, this is like that, but

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Speaker 1: there are definite nuances that distinguish it from either one

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Speaker 1: of those two things.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. And the reason why this has become a pastime

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Speaker 2: or i guess a sort of a hobby now on

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Speaker 2: the Thames is because the Thames was a garbage dumping

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Speaker 2: ground for many, many years. People would just you know,

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Speaker 2: we did our thing on New York City trash and

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Speaker 2: how previous to trash collection, people would just dump it

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Speaker 2: on the sidewalks and in the rivers there in New York.

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Speaker 2: They did the same thing in London and it was

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Speaker 2: a junky, nasty polluted river until about you know, sixty

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Speaker 2: something years ago, when they took great, great efforts to

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Speaker 2: really clean up that river, and now apparently, at least

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Speaker 2: as far as urban rivers goes, it's one of the

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Speaker 2: cleanest ones, right, But there is still because it happened

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Speaker 2: for so many years, and because so much happened in

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Speaker 2: London over those years, there's just you know, thousands of

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Speaker 2: years of potential gold and sometimes real gold in those

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Speaker 2: muddy banks.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, because a lot of people have lived densely in

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Speaker 1: the London area on the Thames for like you said,

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Speaker 1: multiple thousands of years. So there's just a lot of

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Speaker 1: stuff there that separates the Thames in and of itself

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Speaker 1: from other rivers. But one of the other things that

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Speaker 1: really makes the Thames so great for mudlarking is the

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Speaker 1: tidal action that it goes through every day, four times

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Speaker 1: a day. Two high tides two low tides are so

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Speaker 1: pronounced that when low tide goes out, it exposes a

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Speaker 1: tremendous amount of the Thames to open air for people

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Speaker 1: to walk around and look for stuff. That's part one.

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Speaker 1: The other part is that when the tide comes back in,

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Speaker 1: it comes back in with such force that it actually

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Speaker 1: can scour the river bottom deposit stuff up on what

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Speaker 1: will soon be the shore at low tide, and then

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Speaker 1: when the water goes back out there you go oppressed

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Speaker 1: of something that was thrown in the river five hundred

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Speaker 1: years ago is now at your feet mudlarker.

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Speaker 2: That's right, and if you remember. Actually, I don't know

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Speaker 2: if this has kind of come out before that with

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Speaker 2: how our publishing works, but there's a thing that we

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Speaker 2: either discussed or will discuss in our No, I think

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Speaker 2: it's already out actually our episode on the Silurian hypothesis.

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Speaker 2: Then it came out today, and that is the fact

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Speaker 2: that something stuck down in mud can survive in better shape,

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Speaker 2: much much longer than something subjected to the forces of

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Speaker 2: wind and erosion and things like that. So a lot

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Speaker 2: of the stuff that these mudlarkers are finding in the

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Speaker 2: mud on the Thames is in great shape.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. I mean like really really old stuff.

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Speaker 1: I saw somebody who found a tutor shoe and it

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Speaker 1: was in such great shape that you could see where

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Speaker 1: like the person wearing at their heel or like the

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Speaker 1: side of their big toe had like shaped the shoe

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Speaker 1: around it. Those impressions were still there.

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Speaker 2: Isn't They had a corn.

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Speaker 1: Or maybe even a bunyon. If you're a lucky mud

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Speaker 1: larker and you find a tutor shoe, we.

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Speaker 2: Should do a short corns and bunions. Sure, all right,

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Speaker 2: So if you are in England and you want to

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Speaker 2: do this before the break, we should tell you that

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Speaker 2: you do need a permit. You have to get a

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Speaker 2: permit from the Port of London Authority. Apparently it takes

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Speaker 2: about a month or longer and we'll cost you about

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Speaker 2: about thirty five quid and you will get a standard

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Speaker 2: license to dig about three inches deep. You can't go

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Speaker 2: in there with your shovel or your backo and dig

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Speaker 2: like six eight feet down. You just can't do that.

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Speaker 2: You still want to not disturb the Thames that much.

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Speaker 2: They're trying to protect that thing, so you can go

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Speaker 2: about three inches down.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Well, let's take a break and we'll come back

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Speaker 1: and talk about some amazing stuff that people have found.

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Speaker 1: All right, Chuck, you talked about digging maybe three inches

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Speaker 1: down tops. I've seen there's some places where you can't

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Speaker 1: dig it all, but you can pick stuff up if

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Speaker 1: it's sitting on the surface of the mud bank right

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Speaker 1: the foreshore is what they call it. But there are

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Speaker 1: other parts along the Thames where you can't even go.

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Speaker 1: They're protected like cultural sites the Tower of London. You

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Speaker 1: can't mudlark along. There's a Roman doc area that was

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Speaker 1: later developed by Alfred the Great and the Seven Hundreds,

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Speaker 1: and that was later used by Charles the Second and

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Speaker 1: to survey the damage of the Great Fire of London

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Speaker 1: in sixteen sixty six, called Queen hythe I don't know

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Speaker 1: if I got that right or not, but that's how

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Speaker 1: it's That's how it's spelled, at least if you're an American.

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Speaker 1: That's what you would say if you saw this word

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Speaker 1: spell out like this? Am I getting that across? I think? So, okay,

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Speaker 1: it's just such a cultural treasure and an archaeological site essentially.

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Speaker 1: If they're like, don't even go near.

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Speaker 2: This, that's right. But let's say my friend, you're mudlarking

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Speaker 2: there on the Thames. You pull something out and you're like, oh,

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Speaker 2: this might be worth a well treasure. What would you

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Speaker 2: do with that item?

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Speaker 1: I would go on eBay and sell it.

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Speaker 2: But you can't do that.

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Speaker 1: Well, let's see what else can I do? I would

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Speaker 1: hide it under my bed for a decade until the

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Speaker 1: heat went down.

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Speaker 2: No that's not what you're going to do either, what

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Speaker 2: you're supposed to do. They have laws in England that

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Speaker 2: basically said they like these treasure laws where hey, if

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Speaker 2: you find something like that, something from antiquity that's worth,

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Speaker 2: something that belongs to the people of England, my friend,

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Speaker 2: and you have to go to the fines liaison officer

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Speaker 2: and you have to give it to them and they

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Speaker 2: will help you identify and determine what that is and

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Speaker 2: what it's worth. And do you sell it? No, no, no,

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Speaker 2: they have to record it in their Portable Antiquities Scheme,

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Speaker 2: which is basically a British museum project that just keeps

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Speaker 2: track of all that stuff. And then finally, if it

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Speaker 2: does have value, a museum has the right to buy

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Speaker 2: that and you could potentially be compensated for that.

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Speaker 1: Sure. And then if they're like this is totally valueless,

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Speaker 1: get this out of our face, you get to keep

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Speaker 1: ebe sure if you can find a chump who wants

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Speaker 1: this extraordinarily common thing. Apparently clay pipes from like the

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Speaker 1: sixteenth century are a dime a dozen in the tens nothing. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And the reason why, I mean, you look at these things,

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Speaker 1: you're like that seems like that's a pretty cool archaeological find.

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Speaker 1: It's not, because at the time, starting from about the

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Speaker 1: fifteen hundreds onward, they were essentially treated like cigarette butts

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Speaker 1: are today. Like you've just finished using the pipe and

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Speaker 1: you just throw it, like you just throw it at

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Speaker 1: ever use. Yes, from what I saw orf, or maybe

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Speaker 1: a couple of uses, whenever you got tired of carrying

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Speaker 1: it around. Okay, And probably I would guess have formerly

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Speaker 1: smoked a pipe at two separate times in my life, right,

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Speaker 1: I would say that you probably tossed it when it

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Speaker 1: started to get gummed up with like tar.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that makes sense. I think they had

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Speaker 2: pretty little thin stem, so it probably got gumped.

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Speaker 1: Up pretty quick. Probably.

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Speaker 2: So before we get onto what we really want to

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Speaker 2: talk about, which is some of the cool stuff they

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Speaker 2: found in the Thames, we should say to be careful.

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Speaker 2: This is something you want to get into. That tidal

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Speaker 2: action is pretty severe. It can come in pretty quickly,

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Speaker 2: and sometimes you're just so into what you're doing out

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Speaker 2: there in the mud that you might look up and

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Speaker 2: be like, oh, krad, I'm now stranded here and the

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Speaker 2: water is coming at me. And there have been people

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Speaker 2: who had to been rescued. That are mudlarking out there

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Speaker 2: because the water's coming at them.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Some other hazards are You can slip on rocks

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Speaker 1: because they're wet and covered in algae, so you want

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Speaker 1: to be careful walking around. You also want to wear gloves,

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Speaker 1: You want to wear boots. You do not want to

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Speaker 1: wear clam diggers. Like I said, you want to kind

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Speaker 1: of keep your skin covered as best as possible. Because

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Speaker 1: there's all sorts of communicable diseases you can catch still

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Speaker 1: by digging around on the Thames Foreshore. One of them

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Speaker 1: is called Wheels disease and it is transmitted through water

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Speaker 1: via rat urine. It's transmitted from rat urine via water.

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Speaker 1: Either way, rat urine's involved in your getting a disease

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Speaker 1: from it. You don't want that.

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Speaker 2: I'm surprised there are rats in London.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. What else?

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Speaker 2: Well, I think we should talk about some of the

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Speaker 2: things they found, because you know, we could go on

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Speaker 2: and on about these. I just picked out a few.

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Speaker 2: I don't know if you found any other ones, but

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Speaker 2: for my money, I would love to talk about the

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Speaker 2: Doves Press typeface or the Doves type or Doves Roman

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Speaker 2: because it was an actual typeface that was found and

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Speaker 2: recovered from the Thames, a long lost, forgotten, well not forgotten,

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Speaker 2: but a long lost typeface from this company called the

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Speaker 2: Doves Press, and it was co owned and I believe

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Speaker 2: it was the early twentieth century. It was a guy

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Speaker 2: named TJ. Cobden Sanderson and Emery Walker, and apparently they

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Speaker 2: dissolved their partnership. Eventually the press closed in nineteen seventeen.

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Speaker 2: When they were dissolving the partnership, they came up with

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Speaker 2: an agreement where Cobden Sanderson was like, that typeface is mine.

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Speaker 2: This is what we print all our stuff in. When

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Speaker 2: I die, then you can have it. I'm assuming he

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Speaker 2: was older, but I'm not sure why Walker would agree

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Speaker 2: to that, unless CS was a little closer to death.

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Speaker 2: But at any rate, that was what happened after the

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Speaker 2: final publication CS. Apparently it just did not go down

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Speaker 2: well between them, and he said, I bequeathed the spot

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Speaker 2: to the bed of the Thames, and over one hundred

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Speaker 2: and seventy trips threw these metal molds into the river.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, two hundred thousand pieces. He threw the Tire proprietary

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Speaker 1: typeface into the Thames, and there were no other copies

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Speaker 1: of it. So this beautiful typeface that there are plenty

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Speaker 1: of examples of because this publishing house that used it

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Speaker 1: was around for a while, it was just lost forever.

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Speaker 1: And that really got in the crawl of a modern

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Speaker 1: designer named Robert Green, who, based on examples of it

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Speaker 1: from like books or something like that, created a digitized

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Speaker 1: version of it. But he was like, this can be better.

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Speaker 1: And I'm not sure if he got into mud larking

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Speaker 1: or to find these type I'm not sure what you

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Speaker 1: call them, the little dye that you would actually use

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Speaker 1: to on the printing press, the molds, the molts, or

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Speaker 1: if he ran across mudlarkers who had found him or something.

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Speaker 1: But he became you could probably say, obsessed with finding

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Speaker 1: these original molds and did he launched like some expeditions

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Speaker 1: on the temps to find him. He came up with

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Speaker 1: like one hundred and fifty or so of them and

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Speaker 1: used them to really drive home the digitized version of

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Speaker 1: doves type that he created.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, do you know what he did in twenty fourteen

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Speaker 2: He got the Port Authority Port of London Authorities dive

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Speaker 2: team to go get this stuff.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, pretty neat.

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Speaker 2: And they did it, and now we have Doves Roman again.

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Speaker 2: And as you know, I'm a Times New Roman guy.

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Speaker 2: We each have our fonts that we print our various

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Speaker 2: stuff in, and I've always been a Times New Roman guy.

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Speaker 2: But boy, this Dove's Roman is beautiful.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I love it. Give me Calibri or give me death.

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Speaker 2: There's more things that people have found. That was the

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Speaker 2: coolest story, so you can just go check it out

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Speaker 2: and look up more things that have been found mudlarking.

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Speaker 2: A lot of cool old things from antiquity.

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Speaker 1: Yep, very cool. And if this you got the mudlarking

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Speaker 1: bug and you go to London, make sure you get

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Speaker 1: a permit first. And I guess since we talked about permits,

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Speaker 1: the means short Stuff's out. Stuff you should Know is

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