WEBVTT - Interview: Gregory Maguire 0:00:08.285 --> 0:00:09.165 School of Humans. 0:00:11.245 --> 0:00:13.605 This episode discusses sensitive topics. 0:00:13.965 --> 0:00:15.205 Please listen with care. 0:00:16.365 --> 0:00:19.325 I said to myself, you know these stories with which 0:00:19.365 --> 0:00:23.525 you are working, the fairy Tales in particular, There's no 0:00:23.725 --> 0:00:27.205 way you can ruin them. You are just a writer 0:00:27.325 --> 0:00:31.165 writing within your particular decades for your particular audience. These 0:00:31.205 --> 0:00:35.005 stories are eternal. You couldn't wreck it, even if you 0:00:35.085 --> 0:00:38.565 wanted to. You couldn't abuse it. It is stronger than you. 0:00:39.085 --> 0:00:42.525 And long after the last copy of any known book 0:00:42.605 --> 0:00:45.565 of yours is writing in a landfill, the fairy Tales 0:00:45.565 --> 0:00:51.045 are going to exist. They're going to continue. 0:00:51.725 --> 0:00:56.045 I'm Miranda Hawkins. Welcome to the Deep Dark Woods. This 0:00:56.325 --> 0:00:59.285 is the final interview of this season, and today I 0:00:59.325 --> 0:01:03.725 speak with New York Times bestselling author Gregory Maguire. He's 0:01:03.765 --> 0:01:07.485 written several dozen books and including Wicked, which was adapted 0:01:07.525 --> 0:01:11.005 into a feature length film, Confessions of an Ugly Stepsister, 0:01:11.485 --> 0:01:15.525 and Mirror Mirror. We talked on zoom about everything from 0:01:15.605 --> 0:01:18.885 journaling to his childhood love of fairy tales, to Harriet 0:01:18.925 --> 0:01:24.885 the Spy and the challenges of publishing. So I do 0:01:25.045 --> 0:01:28.085 have to say, first of all, going through and learning 0:01:28.205 --> 0:01:31.645 a bit about you and everything for this I was like, 0:01:31.725 --> 0:01:34.125 Oh my goodness, there's so much we have in common. 0:01:34.525 --> 0:01:37.325 But one of the main things is that I ran 0:01:37.365 --> 0:01:43.725 across is that you also love Harriet the Spy. Yeah. 0:01:43.925 --> 0:01:45.245 I grew up on Harry at the Spy. 0:01:45.445 --> 0:01:48.285 I wanted to be a detective growing up, so and 0:01:48.405 --> 0:01:49.925 like Harry at the Spy, you know, I felt like 0:01:49.965 --> 0:01:52.885 she'd fit into that. And I remember watching the movie 0:01:53.085 --> 0:01:55.805 and I wanted to be just like her. And I 0:01:55.925 --> 0:01:59.125 was listening to an interview you did back in twenty twenty. 0:01:59.165 --> 0:02:01.205 It was about how you. 0:02:01.165 --> 0:02:04.005 Were like transcribing all your notes that you had had 0:02:04.045 --> 0:02:06.285 and you were upside think like a million, six hundred 0:02:06.325 --> 0:02:07.645 thousand words or something. 0:02:08.125 --> 0:02:11.605 Absolutely, it's over in the corner of my study and 0:02:12.245 --> 0:02:17.245 if you can see, there's a huge stack of papers 0:02:17.365 --> 0:02:23.685 there that my printed life journals. It's three thousand pages 0:02:23.765 --> 0:02:27.445 single space, I think, or three thousand, five hundred or something. 0:02:28.165 --> 0:02:29.045 Oh my goodness. 0:02:29.045 --> 0:02:31.805 Okay, so is that transcribing, Like that's all your journals now? 0:02:32.365 --> 0:02:35.405 All my journals from when I began them in sixth 0:02:35.925 --> 0:02:40.485 or the summer machines sixth and seventh grade up until now. 0:02:41.085 --> 0:02:43.365 For the last ten years, I've been keeping journals on 0:02:43.725 --> 0:02:47.805 the laptop instead of by hand. But yeah, so I 0:02:47.925 --> 0:02:50.165 keep doing it. It's one of my life's work, even 0:02:50.205 --> 0:02:53.045 though nobody will ever see it. It's something I started 0:02:53.045 --> 0:02:53.965 doing and I can't stop. 0:02:54.565 --> 0:02:56.605 Okay, kind of curious as to why, Like, is it 0:02:56.685 --> 0:02:58.405 just you're like something you want to make sure is 0:02:58.445 --> 0:03:00.845 like six around or well? 0:03:01.045 --> 0:03:04.725 The question of why I'm doing it is answered by 0:03:04.965 --> 0:03:09.725 the definitely sagacious old Golly, who has told Harriet at 0:03:09.725 --> 0:03:14.005 one point in that novel that description is good for 0:03:14.125 --> 0:03:17.445 the soul and clears the mind out like a laxative. 0:03:18.125 --> 0:03:21.765 And that's how I feel. I feel that I carry 0:03:21.925 --> 0:03:29.445 around my impressions and my moral conundrums and emotional concerns 0:03:30.205 --> 0:03:36.925 like heavy baggage. The Latin word for suitcases is impedimenta. 0:03:37.765 --> 0:03:41.085 And I feel as if I carry around the perceptions 0:03:41.085 --> 0:03:45.365 of my life and that apprehensions like heavy, heavy impedimenta, 0:03:45.765 --> 0:03:50.485 filled with lead bars. But if I store those lead 0:03:50.525 --> 0:03:53.805 bars in the pages of a journal, I can leave 0:03:53.845 --> 0:03:58.245 them behind and depart the writing room as it were, 0:03:58.325 --> 0:04:01.645 the writing chamber, the writing moment, with a lighter tread 0:04:01.925 --> 0:04:04.925 and a more open eye. And that is very useful 0:04:04.925 --> 0:04:07.005 to a writer. It's very useful to somebody who wants 0:04:07.045 --> 0:04:10.245 to survive being alive. And so that's why I do it. 0:04:10.325 --> 0:04:15.285 I really do it as much as a psychological assist 0:04:16.005 --> 0:04:18.845 as I do for a kind of practice and training 0:04:18.885 --> 0:04:22.485 for being a writer. So just as I have answered 0:04:22.525 --> 0:04:25.565 this question in too many words, I write in my 0:04:25.685 --> 0:04:28.565 journals with too many words, and that's why so long. 0:04:29.005 --> 0:04:30.925 Well, I think it's great to be honest. 0:04:31.085 --> 0:04:33.885 So and like I also understand the why of like, 0:04:34.205 --> 0:04:35.765 you know, it makes a soul a little lighter. 0:04:36.205 --> 0:04:38.325 Yeah, absolutely, absolutely, Yeah. 0:04:38.365 --> 0:04:40.125 So I was going to actually ask if you've used 0:04:40.165 --> 0:04:43.965 anything in those journals in your writing, you know, But 0:04:44.125 --> 0:04:47.605 it seems like that is very separate from well. 0:04:47.445 --> 0:04:50.365 It is very separate. There are several things that I 0:04:50.605 --> 0:04:53.725 can say. One is that another way of thinking about 0:04:53.805 --> 0:04:58.285 journal writing is it's a way of keeping your hand 0:04:58.365 --> 0:05:02.285 in while you aren't writing fiction. It's a way of 0:05:02.405 --> 0:05:07.445 keeping your brain supple and your capacity for manipulating language 0:05:07.445 --> 0:05:14.005 and ideas adroit and full of tensil strength. Because if 0:05:14.005 --> 0:05:16.525 you play the piano, you need to do hours of scales. 0:05:17.205 --> 0:05:21.125 Even after you're a master, if you are a runner, 0:05:21.365 --> 0:05:23.445 Olympic runner, you still have to do warm ups. You 0:05:23.485 --> 0:05:25.765 still have to do cool downs, and so I think 0:05:25.805 --> 0:05:28.845 of writing a journal. I think of doing it as 0:05:28.965 --> 0:05:32.765 kind of warm ups and keeping myself oiled and flexible 0:05:32.805 --> 0:05:35.565 and ready for when I need to use those skills 0:05:35.925 --> 0:05:37.165 for a more creative outlet. 0:05:38.285 --> 0:05:39.565 That makes absolute sense. 0:05:40.005 --> 0:05:42.165 So, you know, I talked about Harriet the Spy, which 0:05:42.165 --> 0:05:44.365 is one of your favorite books, and you've talked about, like, 0:05:44.405 --> 0:05:46.205 you know, growing up on the Wizard of Oz and 0:05:46.285 --> 0:05:47.565 like other books as well. 0:05:48.045 --> 0:05:50.445 But you know, we're here to also talk about The 0:05:50.485 --> 0:05:51.325 Brothers Grim. 0:05:51.525 --> 0:05:53.725 So I'm kind of curious, you know when you first 0:05:53.805 --> 0:05:55.685 ran across those and like, what were some of your 0:05:55.725 --> 0:05:56.565 favorite stories. 0:05:57.805 --> 0:06:01.245 Well, it's a wonderful story. And I have largely gotten 0:06:01.285 --> 0:06:04.085 tired of talking about myself, although I will do it. 0:06:04.405 --> 0:06:07.645 You know, me a drink and I'll talk about myself. 0:06:07.845 --> 0:06:09.005 Well, I appreciate it. 0:06:09.205 --> 0:06:13.605 Like any other human being on the planet. But in fact, 0:06:13.765 --> 0:06:18.485 the Brothers Grim and the related fairy tales of Parole 0:06:18.965 --> 0:06:23.125 and the invented literary fairy tales of Anderson and Oscar Wilde, 0:06:23.125 --> 0:06:27.565 et cetera, had a huge impact in my reading life 0:06:27.565 --> 0:06:31.565 as a child. Now here's where it comes. The inevitable 0:06:32.085 --> 0:06:38.085 potted picture of childhood, you know, misery. My family was 0:06:38.125 --> 0:06:45.085 not wealthy. My birth parents were not educated except in life. 0:06:45.765 --> 0:06:48.525 Neither of them got beyond high school. But they were 0:06:48.525 --> 0:06:52.325 self educated and they were very smart autodidas, as you 0:06:52.405 --> 0:06:54.725 could do in the first half of the twentieth century 0:06:54.725 --> 0:06:57.325 in a way not so easy to do now. They 0:06:57.325 --> 0:06:59.565 were not wealthy by any stretch. My mother was a 0:06:59.605 --> 0:07:02.405 Greek immigrant and my father was an out of work 0:07:02.445 --> 0:07:07.165 Irish American writer. They had four kids, and when I 0:07:07.325 --> 0:07:11.885 was born, my mother died in childbirth about seven days later, 0:07:12.925 --> 0:07:14.645 and at first I was with an aunt, and then 0:07:14.645 --> 0:07:17.205 I was put in an orphanage. My father remarried, so 0:07:17.245 --> 0:07:19.645 I had a stepmother. My goodness, I had a birth mother, 0:07:19.965 --> 0:07:23.525 a godmother, a stepmother, an orphanage, and then I was 0:07:23.525 --> 0:07:25.845 brought back into the family. I was the youngest of 0:07:25.885 --> 0:07:29.485 the four, and I had a perfectly happy childhood. But 0:07:29.605 --> 0:07:35.325 the dramatic tropes around my beginnings are the tropes of 0:07:35.405 --> 0:07:40.005 fairy tales. The mother dies in childbirth and the child 0:07:40.045 --> 0:07:42.405 has to make his or her way. Usually it's a 0:07:42.445 --> 0:07:50.645 her without proper supervision by two parents. Oftentimes the stepmother 0:07:51.005 --> 0:07:54.685 is wicked. That's how it happens in fairy tales. Now, 0:07:54.725 --> 0:07:58.845 my stepmother was anything but wicked. Indeed, I used to 0:07:58.845 --> 0:08:03.285 make a joke that my stepmother and my godmother were 0:08:03.325 --> 0:08:06.285 the same person. So depending on how I was feeling 0:08:06.285 --> 0:08:08.965 about her at any given moment, she was either the 0:08:09.005 --> 0:08:12.205 fairy godmother or the wicked stepmother. But she was never wicked, 0:08:12.525 --> 0:08:16.125 and she was well educated. She had several degrees. She 0:08:16.285 --> 0:08:21.525 and my father shared an absolute passion for reading and 0:08:21.645 --> 0:08:24.245 for the library, and that was one of the few 0:08:24.325 --> 0:08:29.085 luxuries we had, was the license to read and the 0:08:29.125 --> 0:08:35.005 permission to visit the library. And I found grim fairy tales. Well, 0:08:35.045 --> 0:08:37.605 I found other things too. I found animal stories, I 0:08:37.685 --> 0:08:43.325 found Winnie the Pooh, I found picture books and baseball 0:08:43.925 --> 0:08:47.965 sports stories and stories about little girls and dancing shoes 0:08:48.005 --> 0:08:51.365 and everything. But there was something about the fairy tales 0:08:52.165 --> 0:08:59.245 that seemed to have a slightly brighter luster when they 0:08:59.325 --> 0:09:02.285 were discovered on the library shelf. They seemed to glow 0:09:02.365 --> 0:09:05.685 a little bit more. They pulled me toward them. And 0:09:05.725 --> 0:09:10.605 I was not above reading and rereading things that I loved. 0:09:10.805 --> 0:09:13.285 I would read things, you know, on a rotation of 0:09:13.285 --> 0:09:15.645 about every three or four months, sometimes if I really 0:09:16.085 --> 0:09:19.285 liked it. Is the way people watch their favorite videos 0:09:19.325 --> 0:09:21.365 over and over again, their favorite movies over and over again. 0:09:21.405 --> 0:09:24.525 Now that was what I did with books. Fairy tales 0:09:24.885 --> 0:09:28.805 spoke to me in several ways. One of them is 0:09:29.405 --> 0:09:33.845 they are so short compared to novels. They're more like 0:09:33.885 --> 0:09:37.845 picture books in a way. They're really compressed. And they 0:09:38.565 --> 0:09:44.725 also don't spend any time, or almost no time with description. 0:09:45.685 --> 0:09:48.685 A ring is a ring. It's not a beautiful, shining ring. 0:09:48.725 --> 0:09:51.365 It's just a ring. A cloak is a cloak. You 0:09:51.365 --> 0:09:53.485 don't have to know if it's three inches off the floor, 0:09:53.485 --> 0:09:56.445 if it's last year's model, or unless it's spurt into 0:09:56.445 --> 0:09:58.405 the story. Even what is made of a cloak is 0:09:58.445 --> 0:10:01.205 a cloak. So there are lots of lessons to be 0:10:01.285 --> 0:10:05.365 learned about how to tell stories, but more so, there 0:10:05.365 --> 0:10:09.165 are lessons to be learned about how to survive the 0:10:09.245 --> 0:10:13.645 vicissitudes of life. And that is something that every child 0:10:13.725 --> 0:10:16.565 needs to know and something that I really wanted to 0:10:16.605 --> 0:10:19.285 know because I was more up against it, I think, 0:10:19.485 --> 0:10:22.925 in childhood than I was able to perceive. 0:10:26.365 --> 0:10:30.645 Yeah, so it's funny because I feel and I'm curious 0:10:30.645 --> 0:10:32.645 what your thoughts on this are, but like, do you 0:10:32.725 --> 0:10:37.205 feel like our initial interactions with the world affect the 0:10:37.285 --> 0:10:38.605 stories that were drawn. 0:10:38.365 --> 0:10:45.645 To the experience of reading definitely affects what the child understands, 0:10:45.685 --> 0:10:51.405 because what they understand is that books are community objects. 0:10:51.965 --> 0:10:57.485 Books are a community forum. A picture book, particularly, is 0:10:57.605 --> 0:11:02.205 designed to be the perfect size to spread across two laps, 0:11:02.965 --> 0:11:05.325 or to spread across one lap of a child sitting 0:11:05.365 --> 0:11:08.845 in your own But once you get to be about 0:11:08.885 --> 0:11:13.285 four and you are beginning, I think to recognize that 0:11:13.325 --> 0:11:18.805 the understanding of life requires the assemblage of building bricks 0:11:18.845 --> 0:11:23.925 of apprehension. Then what you apprehend in your driveway or 0:11:23.965 --> 0:11:28.205 on your grandmother's basement steps, and what you apprehend in 0:11:28.245 --> 0:11:30.365 the story that is told to you or that you 0:11:30.405 --> 0:11:33.805 were learning to read for yourself eventually begin to be 0:11:34.805 --> 0:11:41.045 separate building bricks useful for the same construction of apprehension. 0:11:41.285 --> 0:11:46.365 You are building yourself the palace or the hovel or 0:11:46.405 --> 0:11:51.085 the magician's tower from which you will live your life. 0:11:51.365 --> 0:11:51.925 Yeah. 0:11:52.005 --> 0:11:55.365 So, I also grew up in the library, and fairy 0:11:55.365 --> 0:11:56.725 toes are always my favorites. 0:11:57.445 --> 0:11:59.605 Hence why I think they always will be. I don't 0:11:59.605 --> 0:12:01.325 know what it is. I just yeah, I love them 0:12:01.365 --> 0:12:01.725 to death. 0:12:01.765 --> 0:12:04.085 But I would leave there with life as many books 0:12:04.125 --> 0:12:06.965 as I could, and then how. 0:12:06.805 --> 0:12:08.565 Many would you take out at a time when you 0:12:08.565 --> 0:12:11.125 were little fourth grade? 0:12:11.605 --> 0:12:14.445 Okay, oh, I think my mom cut me off at 0:12:14.445 --> 0:12:17.325 like six at a time. Well, that's what it was, 0:12:17.405 --> 0:12:19.405 just my mom and I so and I was an 0:12:19.405 --> 0:12:21.765 only child, so I spent most of my days reading 0:12:22.165 --> 0:12:24.765 like that. I was just engrossed in books. I could 0:12:24.765 --> 0:12:27.445 read a book a day. So she'd be like, you're 0:12:27.445 --> 0:12:29.485 only allowed to take this many. We will come back 0:12:29.525 --> 0:12:30.645 next week or whatever. 0:12:30.685 --> 0:12:31.365 I promise you. 0:12:31.485 --> 0:12:33.325 And you know, the things I got in trouble for 0:12:33.405 --> 0:12:37.885 in school was reading under my desk. So yeah, I 0:12:37.965 --> 0:12:40.405 was like more into the story than I don't know 0:12:40.525 --> 0:12:44.885 math at the time. After the break, Gregor maguire tells 0:12:44.965 --> 0:12:55.925 us how he comes up with his stories. Welcome back 0:12:55.965 --> 0:13:02.725 to the Deep Dark Woods. I'm talking to author Gregory McGuire. So, 0:13:03.405 --> 0:13:05.805 I know you've talked about the origins of what a 0:13:05.805 --> 0:13:09.805 couple of different times, and you said at one point 0:13:09.805 --> 0:13:12.925 that there's kind of two origins. One was like the 0:13:13.005 --> 0:13:15.365 Unconscious when you were a kid and you watch it, 0:13:15.405 --> 0:13:18.405 and then you would have the neighborhood kids like you know, 0:13:19.005 --> 0:13:21.485 basically become a troop and acted out, and then you 0:13:21.525 --> 0:13:24.765 had the conscious of the Gulf Wars nineteen ninety one 0:13:24.845 --> 0:13:28.245 and seeing the headline of Hussan possibly being you know, 0:13:28.245 --> 0:13:30.925 the next Hitler, and it really got you to thinking 0:13:30.965 --> 0:13:32.685 of you know, what, what is evil? 0:13:32.725 --> 0:13:33.485 What does that mean? 0:13:34.205 --> 0:13:37.965 And hence you know, incomes the green witch, you know, 0:13:38.045 --> 0:13:41.725 flying into your brain. So you did the adaptation of 0:13:41.765 --> 0:13:44.445 snow White with Mirror Mirror, and then did the adaptation 0:13:44.685 --> 0:13:46.525 of Cinderella. 0:13:45.965 --> 0:13:49.245 With the Confessions of an Ugly Stepsister. So I'm kind of. 0:13:49.205 --> 0:13:53.925 Wondering where you got those, where those started, what were 0:13:53.925 --> 0:13:57.365 their origins, and also not only what were the origins, 0:13:57.445 --> 0:13:59.565 but why those tales specifically. 0:14:00.725 --> 0:14:08.005 Well, when Wicked was published, nothing was more surprising to 0:14:08.085 --> 0:14:12.365 my agent and to me but that it sold very 0:14:12.405 --> 0:14:15.205 well right away. It never hit the best seller list 0:14:15.245 --> 0:14:19.485 for the first eight years, but it lived underneath the 0:14:19.485 --> 0:14:24.245 bestseller list cut off for months and months and seasons 0:14:24.245 --> 0:14:29.405 and seasons, and indeed its sales figures grew every six 0:14:29.485 --> 0:14:35.125 months for almost ten years. So of course I was 0:14:35.165 --> 0:14:37.405 interested in following up. Of course I thought it was 0:14:37.445 --> 0:14:40.925 possibly my only I was going to be one shot 0:14:41.045 --> 0:14:43.565 wonder Boy Wonder with one adult novel. I had written 0:14:43.605 --> 0:14:46.405 Chiltern's books before, but this was my first adult novel. 0:14:46.925 --> 0:14:49.965 So I wrote another novel and I sent it to 0:14:50.005 --> 0:14:54.245 my editor and my agent. It was actually it was 0:14:54.285 --> 0:14:58.045 eventually published under a different title. It was published about 0:14:58.725 --> 0:15:02.925 twenty five years later under the title The Next Queen 0:15:02.925 --> 0:15:05.205 of Heaven, but at the time that I wrote it, 0:15:05.565 --> 0:15:09.725 nineteen ninety seven or so, it was called Eating the Bible. 0:15:10.165 --> 0:15:12.805 So I sent this off to my editor and my 0:15:12.885 --> 0:15:16.765 agent and we got into her office and she said 0:15:16.765 --> 0:15:22.085 to me, Gregory, I just finished reading Eating the Bible. 0:15:22.485 --> 0:15:25.205 I love it. I'm not going to buy it. It'll 0:15:25.205 --> 0:15:27.445 never sell what else you're working on? And you know, 0:15:27.485 --> 0:15:31.005 she said that all that without one breath. And I said, well, 0:15:31.085 --> 0:15:34.205 I do have another idea, I said, and that was 0:15:34.245 --> 0:15:37.405 a lie. I didn't have any other ideas, but I 0:15:37.405 --> 0:15:41.685 couldn't bear to let her interest in me slip away. 0:15:42.645 --> 0:15:45.685 And my agent said to me, oh, you have another idea, 0:15:46.245 --> 0:15:48.725 And my editor said, oh, you have another idea, pray tell, 0:15:49.445 --> 0:15:55.005 and so I said it's it's called Confessions of an 0:15:55.045 --> 0:16:01.125 Ugly Stepsister. And the title was just born out of panic. 0:16:01.925 --> 0:16:05.885 My subconscious invented it in order to have something say, 0:16:06.605 --> 0:16:10.285 and my editor said, oh, that sounds wonderful. What is 0:16:10.325 --> 0:16:12.485 it about? My agent said, yes, you didn't mention this, 0:16:12.605 --> 0:16:15.885 what is it about? And I said, I never talk 0:16:15.925 --> 0:16:19.125 about works in progress because I didn't know what it 0:16:19.165 --> 0:16:21.365 was about. It was just a good title. But it 0:16:21.405 --> 0:16:24.045 was intrigued and intriguing title to them. And on the 0:16:24.125 --> 0:16:28.045 train back to Boston, I asked myself the question, well, 0:16:28.085 --> 0:16:30.725 what does that title mean, Confessions of an Ugly Stepsister? 0:16:31.045 --> 0:16:32.005 What is that about? 0:16:32.445 --> 0:16:32.645 Oh? 0:16:32.925 --> 0:16:37.245 Well, the ugly stepsisters are Cinderella figures. So I just 0:16:37.285 --> 0:16:38.125 followed it from there. 0:16:39.685 --> 0:16:41.045 That's absolutely great. 0:16:42.005 --> 0:16:47.685 I'm so sorry it's such it's such a revealing, desperate story. 0:16:48.725 --> 0:16:50.005 No, no, I love it. 0:16:51.325 --> 0:16:53.765 But it shows, it shows that fairy tales are there 0:16:53.805 --> 0:16:55.205 in there, like in the bedrock. 0:16:55.285 --> 0:16:57.285 That's what I was gonna say, because like for you 0:16:57.325 --> 0:16:59.245 just to just to pull that out out of nowhere 0:16:59.245 --> 0:17:00.605 and be like, this is it and then you just 0:17:00.645 --> 0:17:01.125 went with it. 0:17:01.165 --> 0:17:03.445 And I mean, it's a fantastic book. I think it 0:17:03.485 --> 0:17:05.405 was the first one I've read out of all your works. 0:17:05.525 --> 0:17:06.485 And it's funny that you. 0:17:06.405 --> 0:17:09.565 Say your adult novels, because I didn't realize until recently 0:17:09.605 --> 0:17:12.765 that you wrote Leaping Beauty and so. 0:17:13.165 --> 0:17:15.485 Yes, and I've been going through and reading those and that. 0:17:15.605 --> 0:17:18.125 Was also where you're like, yeah, it was just one 0:17:18.205 --> 0:17:20.245 night I had to sit down and I needed to 0:17:20.245 --> 0:17:22.085 like make some money, and this is what came out. 0:17:22.165 --> 0:17:26.005 But anyways, so what about Mirror Mirror then? Is it 0:17:26.045 --> 0:17:27.965 something along those lines or was that like. 0:17:28.485 --> 0:17:31.725 Well after you know, one of the reasons I resisted 0:17:31.965 --> 0:17:35.645 Confessions at first, and one of the reasons why my 0:17:35.925 --> 0:17:39.365 agent resisted me writing a sequel to Wicked right away 0:17:40.085 --> 0:17:44.125 was neither he nor I wanted me to set myself 0:17:44.205 --> 0:17:47.285 up in shop as the grown up writer who rewrites 0:17:47.405 --> 0:17:50.965 children's books for adults audience. I didn't want to be like, 0:17:51.245 --> 0:17:54.765 you know, put into that category. And also I wanted 0:17:54.765 --> 0:17:57.965 to have a career that was that was a respectable career. 0:17:58.085 --> 0:18:01.285 I didn't want to be seen to be taking my 0:18:01.525 --> 0:18:06.085 audience or even my muse for granted. On the other hand, 0:18:07.085 --> 0:18:11.725 children's stories and fairy tales particularly are deeply influential and 0:18:11.805 --> 0:18:14.885 are important to me, and so when Confessions of an 0:18:14.925 --> 0:18:17.805 all this substitute came up, I thought, well, I guess 0:18:18.085 --> 0:18:22.565 you know. I tried eating the Bible and that didn't work, 0:18:22.605 --> 0:18:26.445 and I do want to keep being published by an 0:18:26.485 --> 0:18:29.285 adult house if possible, for no other reason than that 0:18:29.325 --> 0:18:33.085 it pays about ten times better than children's books. And 0:18:33.165 --> 0:18:36.805 Confessions did very well too, like right Away did well. 0:18:36.925 --> 0:18:39.965 But after that I thought, hmm, I really want to 0:18:39.965 --> 0:18:43.525 write a ghost story now, a contemporary ghost story. This 0:18:43.565 --> 0:18:46.165 is the one that was eventually published as Lost. And 0:18:46.245 --> 0:18:50.605 my agent said, well, Judith Reagan, your publisher wants you 0:18:50.685 --> 0:18:54.125 to do another fairy tale or another children's book. Why 0:18:54.165 --> 0:18:57.605 don't you do something about Alice? And I said, Alice 0:18:57.965 --> 0:19:02.605 is a master work of English literature. The Wizard of 0:19:02.605 --> 0:19:05.285 Oz is a good book and a strong story, but 0:19:05.365 --> 0:19:07.405 it's not a master work. I mean, Analyss is up 0:19:07.445 --> 0:19:11.085 there with Virginia Woolf and with you know, Emily Dickinson 0:19:11.125 --> 0:19:13.085 and John Keats. I mean, it's a real work of 0:19:13.325 --> 0:19:17.925 absolutely brilliance, and I would have enormous hubris to think 0:19:17.965 --> 0:19:20.885 that I could improve on it or adam rate upon it. 0:19:21.365 --> 0:19:25.525 But the fairy tales, because they're old and because they're 0:19:25.565 --> 0:19:28.525 from the oral tradition, are a lot more porous and 0:19:28.605 --> 0:19:31.645 open to interpretation, so you don't have to actually change 0:19:31.685 --> 0:19:35.285 too much in order to make them more appealing. So 0:19:35.325 --> 0:19:38.045 he said, she wants you to do snow White or something, 0:19:38.085 --> 0:19:40.365 and I said, I want to do a ghost story. 0:19:40.525 --> 0:19:43.445 He said, she's not going to buy it. She didn't 0:19:43.445 --> 0:19:45.045 buy eating the Bible. She's not going to let you 0:19:45.125 --> 0:19:47.045 do a ghost story. And I said, why don't you 0:19:47.085 --> 0:19:49.045 go back to her and tell her I will do 0:19:49.725 --> 0:19:52.445 a snow White story if she takes my ghost story 0:19:52.445 --> 0:19:55.445 and publishes. At first he said she'll never say yes, 0:19:55.725 --> 0:19:59.365 but she did so my third adult novel was lost, 0:19:59.805 --> 0:20:03.005 and then I owed her a snow White story. I 0:20:03.045 --> 0:20:07.165 began Mirror mirror by thinking about and this is an 0:20:07.245 --> 0:20:11.525 analogy for all the ways that I work. I begin 0:20:11.645 --> 0:20:15.765 by remembering the story before I even read it, remembering 0:20:15.805 --> 0:20:20.245 it from childhood readings and rereadings, and thinking, what does 0:20:20.325 --> 0:20:22.685 this convey to me? What do I think it meant? 0:20:22.925 --> 0:20:24.685 What did I think it meant? What do I think 0:20:24.725 --> 0:20:28.485 it means? Now? What's the disconnect between how the story 0:20:28.565 --> 0:20:31.125 is told and what it really seems to be about? 0:20:31.845 --> 0:20:38.005 I mean, Cinderella is either about beauty or virtue or 0:20:38.045 --> 0:20:41.445 could it be about both? And what is snow White 0:20:41.485 --> 0:20:44.005 about it? It's about being endangered and falling asleep and 0:20:44.045 --> 0:20:46.965 waking up and being a different person when you wake up. 0:20:47.245 --> 0:20:51.685 That's about education, that's about surviving adolescence and becoming an 0:20:51.725 --> 0:20:54.605 agent in one's own life. The fact that she's a 0:20:54.645 --> 0:20:58.605 passive character in the fairy tale is incidental to me. 0:20:59.205 --> 0:21:04.405 So I began to think about the awakening mind of 0:21:04.805 --> 0:21:09.365 Sleeping Beauty, and then I thought, well, when what are 0:21:09.365 --> 0:21:12.565 the analogies for the awakening mind and Sleeping Beauty? And 0:21:12.605 --> 0:21:16.485 I thought, the analogy for the awakening mind in our 0:21:16.565 --> 0:21:19.925 Western culture is the Renaissance. It's when we came out 0:21:19.965 --> 0:21:22.365 of the dark ages and started to think, this can't 0:21:22.405 --> 0:21:25.525 mean that, it must mean this, and we must find 0:21:25.605 --> 0:21:28.485 new ways to appreciate and understand what the world is 0:21:28.485 --> 0:21:32.725 telling us. So that's why I set Mirror Mirror in 0:21:32.805 --> 0:21:36.085 the High Renaissance at the turn of the fifteenth into 0:21:36.125 --> 0:21:40.885 the sixteenth century. And then I began to research Lucreate, 0:21:41.005 --> 0:21:44.925 sie A Borgia and Cesare Borgia and Alexander the sixth 0:21:45.325 --> 0:21:49.245 So the meaning of the story sort of predicts where 0:21:49.285 --> 0:21:54.045 it should be set and how it wants to unfold itself. 0:21:54.365 --> 0:21:57.725 The same happened with Confessions. Initially started to set in 0:21:57.725 --> 0:22:01.165 the eighteenth century Denmark, but I realized, no, this is 0:22:01.205 --> 0:22:05.165 about something else. This is about the inflation of values 0:22:05.205 --> 0:22:07.365 of being. And so then I thought of the tulip 0:22:07.445 --> 0:22:10.085 boom and bust market in Holland in the early part 0:22:10.125 --> 0:22:13.845 of the seventeenth century, which was concurrent with the rise 0:22:14.165 --> 0:22:19.205 of the market of genre paintings and of paintings as 0:22:19.205 --> 0:22:25.085 home decoration as opposed to celebrations of medieval pomp and 0:22:25.445 --> 0:22:29.645 ecclesiastical power or religion. It was more about real people, 0:22:30.005 --> 0:22:33.365 so that you know those things sort of, I sort 0:22:33.405 --> 0:22:35.925 of work with my cultural understandings until I get the 0:22:35.965 --> 0:22:38.765 setting that makes a lot of sense. And that's where 0:22:38.805 --> 0:22:39.885 Mirror and Mary came from. 0:22:40.685 --> 0:22:41.165 Got it. 0:22:41.285 --> 0:22:43.085 And I was going to say, you've kind of spoken 0:22:43.085 --> 0:22:45.125 on and our touched upon it as I've been speaking 0:22:45.165 --> 0:22:49.365 to you, but as I'm learning more about fairy tales, 0:22:49.525 --> 0:22:51.885 you know, and where they come from and everything, it's 0:22:51.885 --> 0:22:55.525 always like snapshots of society's values, right, And so I'm 0:22:55.565 --> 0:22:56.365 kind of curious. 0:22:56.565 --> 0:23:00.325 You know, there's multiple adaptations between. 0:23:00.005 --> 0:23:03.245 Brothers Grim and where we are now, And even with 0:23:03.285 --> 0:23:05.445 your own adaptations, I feel like you're very nu once 0:23:05.845 --> 0:23:07.845 how you go about it, Like you really like have 0:23:07.885 --> 0:23:10.445 an idea and you just kind of want to dig 0:23:10.485 --> 0:23:14.085 into it. So what are you hoping that your readers 0:23:14.685 --> 0:23:17.565 get when they read these books, and like, do you 0:23:17.605 --> 0:23:18.925 think that you've accomplished that? 0:23:20.405 --> 0:23:23.725