1 00:00:08,285 --> 00:00:09,165 Speaker 1: School of Humans. 2 00:00:11,245 --> 00:00:13,605 Speaker 2: This episode discusses sensitive topics. 3 00:00:13,965 --> 00:00:15,205 Speaker 1: Please listen with care. 4 00:00:16,365 --> 00:00:19,325 Speaker 3: I said to myself, you know these stories with which 5 00:00:19,365 --> 00:00:23,525 Speaker 3: you are working, the fairy Tales in particular, There's no 6 00:00:23,725 --> 00:00:27,205 Speaker 3: way you can ruin them. You are just a writer 7 00:00:27,325 --> 00:00:31,165 Speaker 3: writing within your particular decades for your particular audience. These 8 00:00:31,205 --> 00:00:35,005 Speaker 3: stories are eternal. You couldn't wreck it, even if you 9 00:00:35,085 --> 00:00:38,565 Speaker 3: wanted to. You couldn't abuse it. It is stronger than you. 10 00:00:39,085 --> 00:00:42,525 Speaker 3: And long after the last copy of any known book 11 00:00:42,605 --> 00:00:45,565 Speaker 3: of yours is writing in a landfill, the fairy Tales 12 00:00:45,565 --> 00:00:51,045 Speaker 3: are going to exist. They're going to continue. 13 00:00:51,725 --> 00:00:56,045 Speaker 2: I'm Miranda Hawkins. Welcome to the Deep Dark Woods. This 14 00:00:56,325 --> 00:00:59,285 Speaker 2: is the final interview of this season, and today I 15 00:00:59,325 --> 00:01:03,725 Speaker 2: speak with New York Times bestselling author Gregory Maguire. He's 16 00:01:03,765 --> 00:01:07,485 Speaker 2: written several dozen books and including Wicked, which was adapted 17 00:01:07,525 --> 00:01:11,005 Speaker 2: into a feature length film, Confessions of an Ugly Stepsister, 18 00:01:11,485 --> 00:01:15,525 Speaker 2: and Mirror Mirror. We talked on zoom about everything from 19 00:01:15,605 --> 00:01:18,885 Speaker 2: journaling to his childhood love of fairy tales, to Harriet 20 00:01:18,925 --> 00:01:24,885 Speaker 2: the Spy and the challenges of publishing. So I do 21 00:01:25,045 --> 00:01:28,085 Speaker 2: have to say, first of all, going through and learning 22 00:01:28,205 --> 00:01:31,645 Speaker 2: a bit about you and everything for this I was like, 23 00:01:31,725 --> 00:01:34,125 Speaker 2: Oh my goodness, there's so much we have in common. 24 00:01:34,525 --> 00:01:37,325 Speaker 2: But one of the main things is that I ran 25 00:01:37,365 --> 00:01:43,725 Speaker 2: across is that you also love Harriet the Spy. Yeah. 26 00:01:43,925 --> 00:01:45,245 Speaker 1: I grew up on Harry at the Spy. 27 00:01:45,445 --> 00:01:48,285 Speaker 2: I wanted to be a detective growing up, so and 28 00:01:48,405 --> 00:01:49,925 Speaker 2: like Harry at the Spy, you know, I felt like 29 00:01:49,965 --> 00:01:52,885 Speaker 2: she'd fit into that. And I remember watching the movie 30 00:01:53,085 --> 00:01:55,805 Speaker 2: and I wanted to be just like her. And I 31 00:01:55,925 --> 00:01:59,125 Speaker 2: was listening to an interview you did back in twenty twenty. 32 00:01:59,165 --> 00:02:01,205 Speaker 1: It was about how you. 33 00:02:01,165 --> 00:02:04,005 Speaker 2: Were like transcribing all your notes that you had had 34 00:02:04,045 --> 00:02:06,285 Speaker 2: and you were upside think like a million, six hundred 35 00:02:06,325 --> 00:02:07,645 Speaker 2: thousand words or something. 36 00:02:08,125 --> 00:02:11,605 Speaker 3: Absolutely, it's over in the corner of my study and 37 00:02:12,245 --> 00:02:17,245 Speaker 3: if you can see, there's a huge stack of papers 38 00:02:17,365 --> 00:02:23,685 Speaker 3: there that my printed life journals. It's three thousand pages 39 00:02:23,765 --> 00:02:27,445 Speaker 3: single space, I think, or three thousand, five hundred or something. 40 00:02:28,165 --> 00:02:29,045 Speaker 1: Oh my goodness. 41 00:02:29,045 --> 00:02:31,805 Speaker 2: Okay, so is that transcribing, Like that's all your journals now? 42 00:02:32,365 --> 00:02:35,405 Speaker 3: All my journals from when I began them in sixth 43 00:02:35,925 --> 00:02:40,485 Speaker 3: or the summer machines sixth and seventh grade up until now. 44 00:02:41,085 --> 00:02:43,365 Speaker 3: For the last ten years, I've been keeping journals on 45 00:02:43,725 --> 00:02:47,805 Speaker 3: the laptop instead of by hand. But yeah, so I 46 00:02:47,925 --> 00:02:50,165 Speaker 3: keep doing it. It's one of my life's work, even 47 00:02:50,205 --> 00:02:53,045 Speaker 3: though nobody will ever see it. It's something I started 48 00:02:53,045 --> 00:02:53,965 Speaker 3: doing and I can't stop. 49 00:02:54,565 --> 00:02:56,605 Speaker 2: Okay, kind of curious as to why, Like, is it 50 00:02:56,685 --> 00:02:58,405 Speaker 2: just you're like something you want to make sure is 51 00:02:58,445 --> 00:03:00,845 Speaker 2: like six around or well? 52 00:03:01,045 --> 00:03:04,725 Speaker 3: The question of why I'm doing it is answered by 53 00:03:04,965 --> 00:03:09,725 Speaker 3: the definitely sagacious old Golly, who has told Harriet at 54 00:03:09,725 --> 00:03:14,005 Speaker 3: one point in that novel that description is good for 55 00:03:14,125 --> 00:03:17,445 Speaker 3: the soul and clears the mind out like a laxative. 56 00:03:18,125 --> 00:03:21,765 Speaker 3: And that's how I feel. I feel that I carry 57 00:03:21,925 --> 00:03:29,445 Speaker 3: around my impressions and my moral conundrums and emotional concerns 58 00:03:30,205 --> 00:03:36,925 Speaker 3: like heavy baggage. The Latin word for suitcases is impedimenta. 59 00:03:37,765 --> 00:03:41,085 Speaker 3: And I feel as if I carry around the perceptions 60 00:03:41,085 --> 00:03:45,365 Speaker 3: of my life and that apprehensions like heavy, heavy impedimenta, 61 00:03:45,765 --> 00:03:50,485 Speaker 3: filled with lead bars. But if I store those lead 62 00:03:50,525 --> 00:03:53,805 Speaker 3: bars in the pages of a journal, I can leave 63 00:03:53,845 --> 00:03:58,245 Speaker 3: them behind and depart the writing room as it were, 64 00:03:58,325 --> 00:04:01,645 Speaker 3: the writing chamber, the writing moment, with a lighter tread 65 00:04:01,925 --> 00:04:04,925 Speaker 3: and a more open eye. And that is very useful 66 00:04:04,925 --> 00:04:07,005 Speaker 3: to a writer. It's very useful to somebody who wants 67 00:04:07,045 --> 00:04:10,245 Speaker 3: to survive being alive. And so that's why I do it. 68 00:04:10,325 --> 00:04:15,285 Speaker 3: I really do it as much as a psychological assist 69 00:04:16,005 --> 00:04:18,845 Speaker 3: as I do for a kind of practice and training 70 00:04:18,885 --> 00:04:22,485 Speaker 3: for being a writer. So just as I have answered 71 00:04:22,525 --> 00:04:25,565 Speaker 3: this question in too many words, I write in my 72 00:04:25,685 --> 00:04:28,565 Speaker 3: journals with too many words, and that's why so long. 73 00:04:29,005 --> 00:04:30,925 Speaker 1: Well, I think it's great to be honest. 74 00:04:31,085 --> 00:04:33,885 Speaker 2: So and like I also understand the why of like, 75 00:04:34,205 --> 00:04:35,765 Speaker 2: you know, it makes a soul a little lighter. 76 00:04:36,205 --> 00:04:38,325 Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely, Yeah. 77 00:04:38,365 --> 00:04:40,125 Speaker 2: So I was going to actually ask if you've used 78 00:04:40,165 --> 00:04:43,965 Speaker 2: anything in those journals in your writing, you know, But 79 00:04:44,125 --> 00:04:47,605 Speaker 2: it seems like that is very separate from well. 80 00:04:47,445 --> 00:04:50,365 Speaker 3: It is very separate. There are several things that I 81 00:04:50,605 --> 00:04:53,725 Speaker 3: can say. One is that another way of thinking about 82 00:04:53,805 --> 00:04:58,285 Speaker 3: journal writing is it's a way of keeping your hand 83 00:04:58,365 --> 00:05:02,285 Speaker 3: in while you aren't writing fiction. It's a way of 84 00:05:02,405 --> 00:05:07,445 Speaker 3: keeping your brain supple and your capacity for manipulating language 85 00:05:07,445 --> 00:05:14,005 Speaker 3: and ideas adroit and full of tensil strength. Because if 86 00:05:14,005 --> 00:05:16,525 Speaker 3: you play the piano, you need to do hours of scales. 87 00:05:17,205 --> 00:05:21,125 Speaker 3: Even after you're a master, if you are a runner, 88 00:05:21,365 --> 00:05:23,445 Speaker 3: Olympic runner, you still have to do warm ups. You 89 00:05:23,485 --> 00:05:25,765 Speaker 3: still have to do cool downs, and so I think 90 00:05:25,805 --> 00:05:28,845 Speaker 3: of writing a journal. I think of doing it as 91 00:05:28,965 --> 00:05:32,765 Speaker 3: kind of warm ups and keeping myself oiled and flexible 92 00:05:32,805 --> 00:05:35,565 Speaker 3: and ready for when I need to use those skills 93 00:05:35,925 --> 00:05:37,165 Speaker 3: for a more creative outlet. 94 00:05:38,285 --> 00:05:39,565 Speaker 1: That makes absolute sense. 95 00:05:40,005 --> 00:05:42,165 Speaker 2: So, you know, I talked about Harriet the Spy, which 96 00:05:42,165 --> 00:05:44,365 Speaker 2: is one of your favorite books, and you've talked about, like, 97 00:05:44,405 --> 00:05:46,205 Speaker 2: you know, growing up on the Wizard of Oz and 98 00:05:46,285 --> 00:05:47,565 Speaker 2: like other books as well. 99 00:05:48,045 --> 00:05:50,445 Speaker 1: But you know, we're here to also talk about The 100 00:05:50,485 --> 00:05:51,325 Speaker 1: Brothers Grim. 101 00:05:51,525 --> 00:05:53,725 Speaker 2: So I'm kind of curious, you know when you first 102 00:05:53,805 --> 00:05:55,685 Speaker 2: ran across those and like, what were some of your 103 00:05:55,725 --> 00:05:56,565 Speaker 2: favorite stories. 104 00:05:57,805 --> 00:06:01,245 Speaker 3: Well, it's a wonderful story. And I have largely gotten 105 00:06:01,285 --> 00:06:04,085 Speaker 3: tired of talking about myself, although I will do it. 106 00:06:04,405 --> 00:06:07,645 Speaker 3: You know, me a drink and I'll talk about myself. 107 00:06:07,845 --> 00:06:09,005 Speaker 1: Well, I appreciate it. 108 00:06:09,205 --> 00:06:13,605 Speaker 3: Like any other human being on the planet. But in fact, 109 00:06:13,765 --> 00:06:18,485 Speaker 3: the Brothers Grim and the related fairy tales of Parole 110 00:06:18,965 --> 00:06:23,125 Speaker 3: and the invented literary fairy tales of Anderson and Oscar Wilde, 111 00:06:23,125 --> 00:06:27,565 Speaker 3: et cetera, had a huge impact in my reading life 112 00:06:27,565 --> 00:06:31,565 Speaker 3: as a child. Now here's where it comes. The inevitable 113 00:06:32,085 --> 00:06:38,085 Speaker 3: potted picture of childhood, you know, misery. My family was 114 00:06:38,125 --> 00:06:45,085 Speaker 3: not wealthy. My birth parents were not educated except in life. 115 00:06:45,765 --> 00:06:48,525 Speaker 3: Neither of them got beyond high school. But they were 116 00:06:48,525 --> 00:06:52,325 Speaker 3: self educated and they were very smart autodidas, as you 117 00:06:52,405 --> 00:06:54,725 Speaker 3: could do in the first half of the twentieth century 118 00:06:54,725 --> 00:06:57,325 Speaker 3: in a way not so easy to do now. They 119 00:06:57,325 --> 00:06:59,565 Speaker 3: were not wealthy by any stretch. My mother was a 120 00:06:59,605 --> 00:07:02,405 Speaker 3: Greek immigrant and my father was an out of work 121 00:07:02,445 --> 00:07:07,165 Speaker 3: Irish American writer. They had four kids, and when I 122 00:07:07,325 --> 00:07:11,885 Speaker 3: was born, my mother died in childbirth about seven days later, 123 00:07:12,925 --> 00:07:14,645 Speaker 3: and at first I was with an aunt, and then 124 00:07:14,645 --> 00:07:17,205 Speaker 3: I was put in an orphanage. My father remarried, so 125 00:07:17,245 --> 00:07:19,645 Speaker 3: I had a stepmother. My goodness, I had a birth mother, 126 00:07:19,965 --> 00:07:23,525 Speaker 3: a godmother, a stepmother, an orphanage, and then I was 127 00:07:23,525 --> 00:07:25,845 Speaker 3: brought back into the family. I was the youngest of 128 00:07:25,885 --> 00:07:29,485 Speaker 3: the four, and I had a perfectly happy childhood. But 129 00:07:29,605 --> 00:07:35,325 Speaker 3: the dramatic tropes around my beginnings are the tropes of 130 00:07:35,405 --> 00:07:40,005 Speaker 3: fairy tales. The mother dies in childbirth and the child 131 00:07:40,045 --> 00:07:42,405 Speaker 3: has to make his or her way. Usually it's a 132 00:07:42,445 --> 00:07:50,645 Speaker 3: her without proper supervision by two parents. Oftentimes the stepmother 133 00:07:51,005 --> 00:07:54,685 Speaker 3: is wicked. That's how it happens in fairy tales. Now, 134 00:07:54,725 --> 00:07:58,845 Speaker 3: my stepmother was anything but wicked. Indeed, I used to 135 00:07:58,845 --> 00:08:03,285 Speaker 3: make a joke that my stepmother and my godmother were 136 00:08:03,325 --> 00:08:06,285 Speaker 3: the same person. So depending on how I was feeling 137 00:08:06,285 --> 00:08:08,965 Speaker 3: about her at any given moment, she was either the 138 00:08:09,005 --> 00:08:12,205 Speaker 3: fairy godmother or the wicked stepmother. But she was never wicked, 139 00:08:12,525 --> 00:08:16,125 Speaker 3: and she was well educated. She had several degrees. She 140 00:08:16,285 --> 00:08:21,525 Speaker 3: and my father shared an absolute passion for reading and 141 00:08:21,645 --> 00:08:24,245 Speaker 3: for the library, and that was one of the few 142 00:08:24,325 --> 00:08:29,085 Speaker 3: luxuries we had, was the license to read and the 143 00:08:29,125 --> 00:08:35,005 Speaker 3: permission to visit the library. And I found grim fairy tales. Well, 144 00:08:35,045 --> 00:08:37,605 Speaker 3: I found other things too. I found animal stories, I 145 00:08:37,685 --> 00:08:43,325 Speaker 3: found Winnie the Pooh, I found picture books and baseball 146 00:08:43,925 --> 00:08:47,965 Speaker 3: sports stories and stories about little girls and dancing shoes 147 00:08:48,005 --> 00:08:51,365 Speaker 3: and everything. But there was something about the fairy tales 148 00:08:52,165 --> 00:08:59,245 Speaker 3: that seemed to have a slightly brighter luster when they 149 00:08:59,325 --> 00:09:02,285 Speaker 3: were discovered on the library shelf. They seemed to glow 150 00:09:02,365 --> 00:09:05,685 Speaker 3: a little bit more. They pulled me toward them. And 151 00:09:05,725 --> 00:09:10,605 Speaker 3: I was not above reading and rereading things that I loved. 152 00:09:10,805 --> 00:09:13,285 Speaker 3: I would read things, you know, on a rotation of 153 00:09:13,285 --> 00:09:15,645 Speaker 3: about every three or four months, sometimes if I really 154 00:09:16,085 --> 00:09:19,285 Speaker 3: liked it. Is the way people watch their favorite videos 155 00:09:19,325 --> 00:09:21,365 Speaker 3: over and over again, their favorite movies over and over again. 156 00:09:21,405 --> 00:09:24,525 Speaker 3: Now that was what I did with books. Fairy tales 157 00:09:24,885 --> 00:09:28,805 Speaker 3: spoke to me in several ways. One of them is 158 00:09:29,405 --> 00:09:33,845 Speaker 3: they are so short compared to novels. They're more like 159 00:09:33,885 --> 00:09:37,845 Speaker 3: picture books in a way. They're really compressed. And they 160 00:09:38,565 --> 00:09:44,725 Speaker 3: also don't spend any time, or almost no time with description. 161 00:09:45,685 --> 00:09:48,685 Speaker 3: A ring is a ring. It's not a beautiful, shining ring. 162 00:09:48,725 --> 00:09:51,365 Speaker 3: It's just a ring. A cloak is a cloak. You 163 00:09:51,365 --> 00:09:53,485 Speaker 3: don't have to know if it's three inches off the floor, 164 00:09:53,485 --> 00:09:56,445 Speaker 3: if it's last year's model, or unless it's spurt into 165 00:09:56,445 --> 00:09:58,405 Speaker 3: the story. Even what is made of a cloak is 166 00:09:58,445 --> 00:10:01,205 Speaker 3: a cloak. So there are lots of lessons to be 167 00:10:01,285 --> 00:10:05,365 Speaker 3: learned about how to tell stories, but more so, there 168 00:10:05,365 --> 00:10:09,165 Speaker 3: are lessons to be learned about how to survive the 169 00:10:09,245 --> 00:10:13,645 Speaker 3: vicissitudes of life. And that is something that every child 170 00:10:13,725 --> 00:10:16,565 Speaker 3: needs to know and something that I really wanted to 171 00:10:16,605 --> 00:10:19,285 Speaker 3: know because I was more up against it, I think, 172 00:10:19,485 --> 00:10:22,925 Speaker 3: in childhood than I was able to perceive. 173 00:10:26,365 --> 00:10:30,645 Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's funny because I feel and I'm curious 174 00:10:30,645 --> 00:10:32,645 Speaker 2: what your thoughts on this are, but like, do you 175 00:10:32,725 --> 00:10:37,205 Speaker 2: feel like our initial interactions with the world affect the 176 00:10:37,285 --> 00:10:38,605 Speaker 2: stories that were drawn. 177 00:10:38,365 --> 00:10:45,645 Speaker 3: To the experience of reading definitely affects what the child understands, 178 00:10:45,685 --> 00:10:51,405 Speaker 3: because what they understand is that books are community objects. 179 00:10:51,965 --> 00:10:57,485 Speaker 3: Books are a community forum. A picture book, particularly, is 180 00:10:57,605 --> 00:11:02,205 Speaker 3: designed to be the perfect size to spread across two laps, 181 00:11:02,965 --> 00:11:05,325 Speaker 3: or to spread across one lap of a child sitting 182 00:11:05,365 --> 00:11:08,845 Speaker 3: in your own But once you get to be about 183 00:11:08,885 --> 00:11:13,285 Speaker 3: four and you are beginning, I think to recognize that 184 00:11:13,325 --> 00:11:18,805 Speaker 3: the understanding of life requires the assemblage of building bricks 185 00:11:18,845 --> 00:11:23,925 Speaker 3: of apprehension. Then what you apprehend in your driveway or 186 00:11:23,965 --> 00:11:28,205 Speaker 3: on your grandmother's basement steps, and what you apprehend in 187 00:11:28,245 --> 00:11:30,365 Speaker 3: the story that is told to you or that you 188 00:11:30,405 --> 00:11:33,805 Speaker 3: were learning to read for yourself eventually begin to be 189 00:11:34,805 --> 00:11:41,045 Speaker 3: separate building bricks useful for the same construction of apprehension. 190 00:11:41,285 --> 00:11:46,365 Speaker 3: You are building yourself the palace or the hovel or 191 00:11:46,405 --> 00:11:51,085 Speaker 3: the magician's tower from which you will live your life. 192 00:11:51,365 --> 00:11:51,925 Speaker 1: Yeah. 193 00:11:52,005 --> 00:11:55,365 Speaker 2: So, I also grew up in the library, and fairy 194 00:11:55,365 --> 00:11:56,725 Speaker 2: toes are always my favorites. 195 00:11:57,445 --> 00:11:59,605 Speaker 1: Hence why I think they always will be. I don't 196 00:11:59,605 --> 00:12:01,325 Speaker 1: know what it is. I just yeah, I love them 197 00:12:01,365 --> 00:12:01,725 Speaker 1: to death. 198 00:12:01,765 --> 00:12:04,085 Speaker 2: But I would leave there with life as many books 199 00:12:04,125 --> 00:12:06,965 Speaker 2: as I could, and then how. 200 00:12:06,805 --> 00:12:08,565 Speaker 3: Many would you take out at a time when you 201 00:12:08,565 --> 00:12:11,125 Speaker 3: were little fourth grade? 202 00:12:11,605 --> 00:12:14,445 Speaker 2: Okay, oh, I think my mom cut me off at 203 00:12:14,445 --> 00:12:17,325 Speaker 2: like six at a time. Well, that's what it was, 204 00:12:17,405 --> 00:12:19,405 Speaker 2: just my mom and I so and I was an 205 00:12:19,405 --> 00:12:21,765 Speaker 2: only child, so I spent most of my days reading 206 00:12:22,165 --> 00:12:24,765 Speaker 2: like that. I was just engrossed in books. I could 207 00:12:24,765 --> 00:12:27,445 Speaker 2: read a book a day. So she'd be like, you're 208 00:12:27,445 --> 00:12:29,485 Speaker 2: only allowed to take this many. We will come back 209 00:12:29,525 --> 00:12:30,645 Speaker 2: next week or whatever. 210 00:12:30,685 --> 00:12:31,365 Speaker 1: I promise you. 211 00:12:31,485 --> 00:12:33,325 Speaker 2: And you know, the things I got in trouble for 212 00:12:33,405 --> 00:12:37,885 Speaker 2: in school was reading under my desk. So yeah, I 213 00:12:37,965 --> 00:12:40,405 Speaker 2: was like more into the story than I don't know 214 00:12:40,525 --> 00:12:44,885 Speaker 2: math at the time. After the break, Gregor maguire tells 215 00:12:44,965 --> 00:12:55,925 Speaker 2: us how he comes up with his stories. Welcome back 216 00:12:55,965 --> 00:13:02,725 Speaker 2: to the Deep Dark Woods. I'm talking to author Gregory McGuire. So, 217 00:13:03,405 --> 00:13:05,805 Speaker 2: I know you've talked about the origins of what a 218 00:13:05,805 --> 00:13:09,805 Speaker 2: couple of different times, and you said at one point 219 00:13:09,805 --> 00:13:12,925 Speaker 2: that there's kind of two origins. One was like the 220 00:13:13,005 --> 00:13:15,365 Speaker 2: Unconscious when you were a kid and you watch it, 221 00:13:15,405 --> 00:13:18,405 Speaker 2: and then you would have the neighborhood kids like you know, 222 00:13:19,005 --> 00:13:21,485 Speaker 2: basically become a troop and acted out, and then you 223 00:13:21,525 --> 00:13:24,765 Speaker 2: had the conscious of the Gulf Wars nineteen ninety one 224 00:13:24,845 --> 00:13:28,245 Speaker 2: and seeing the headline of Hussan possibly being you know, 225 00:13:28,245 --> 00:13:30,925 Speaker 2: the next Hitler, and it really got you to thinking 226 00:13:30,965 --> 00:13:32,685 Speaker 2: of you know, what, what is evil? 227 00:13:32,725 --> 00:13:33,485 Speaker 1: What does that mean? 228 00:13:34,205 --> 00:13:37,965 Speaker 2: And hence you know, incomes the green witch, you know, 229 00:13:38,045 --> 00:13:41,725 Speaker 2: flying into your brain. So you did the adaptation of 230 00:13:41,765 --> 00:13:44,445 Speaker 2: snow White with Mirror Mirror, and then did the adaptation 231 00:13:44,685 --> 00:13:46,525 Speaker 2: of Cinderella. 232 00:13:45,965 --> 00:13:49,245 Speaker 1: With the Confessions of an Ugly Stepsister. So I'm kind of. 233 00:13:49,205 --> 00:13:53,925 Speaker 2: Wondering where you got those, where those started, what were 234 00:13:53,925 --> 00:13:57,365 Speaker 2: their origins, and also not only what were the origins, 235 00:13:57,445 --> 00:13:59,565 Speaker 2: but why those tales specifically. 236 00:14:00,725 --> 00:14:08,005 Speaker 3: Well, when Wicked was published, nothing was more surprising to 237 00:14:08,085 --> 00:14:12,365 Speaker 3: my agent and to me but that it sold very 238 00:14:12,405 --> 00:14:15,205 Speaker 3: well right away. It never hit the best seller list 239 00:14:15,245 --> 00:14:19,485 Speaker 3: for the first eight years, but it lived underneath the 240 00:14:19,485 --> 00:14:24,245 Speaker 3: bestseller list cut off for months and months and seasons 241 00:14:24,245 --> 00:14:29,405 Speaker 3: and seasons, and indeed its sales figures grew every six 242 00:14:29,485 --> 00:14:35,125 Speaker 3: months for almost ten years. So of course I was 243 00:14:35,165 --> 00:14:37,405 Speaker 3: interested in following up. Of course I thought it was 244 00:14:37,445 --> 00:14:40,925 Speaker 3: possibly my only I was going to be one shot 245 00:14:41,045 --> 00:14:43,565 Speaker 3: wonder Boy Wonder with one adult novel. I had written 246 00:14:43,605 --> 00:14:46,405 Speaker 3: Chiltern's books before, but this was my first adult novel. 247 00:14:46,925 --> 00:14:49,965 Speaker 3: So I wrote another novel and I sent it to 248 00:14:50,005 --> 00:14:54,245 Speaker 3: my editor and my agent. It was actually it was 249 00:14:54,285 --> 00:14:58,045 Speaker 3: eventually published under a different title. It was published about 250 00:14:58,725 --> 00:15:02,925 Speaker 3: twenty five years later under the title The Next Queen 251 00:15:02,925 --> 00:15:05,205 Speaker 3: of Heaven, but at the time that I wrote it, 252 00:15:05,565 --> 00:15:09,725 Speaker 3: nineteen ninety seven or so, it was called Eating the Bible. 253 00:15:10,165 --> 00:15:12,805 Speaker 3: So I sent this off to my editor and my 254 00:15:12,885 --> 00:15:16,765 Speaker 3: agent and we got into her office and she said 255 00:15:16,765 --> 00:15:22,085 Speaker 3: to me, Gregory, I just finished reading Eating the Bible. 256 00:15:22,485 --> 00:15:25,205 Speaker 3: I love it. I'm not going to buy it. It'll 257 00:15:25,205 --> 00:15:27,445 Speaker 3: never sell what else you're working on? And you know, 258 00:15:27,485 --> 00:15:31,005 Speaker 3: she said that all that without one breath. And I said, well, 259 00:15:31,085 --> 00:15:34,205 Speaker 3: I do have another idea, I said, and that was 260 00:15:34,245 --> 00:15:37,405 Speaker 3: a lie. I didn't have any other ideas, but I 261 00:15:37,405 --> 00:15:41,685 Speaker 3: couldn't bear to let her interest in me slip away. 262 00:15:42,645 --> 00:15:45,685 Speaker 3: And my agent said to me, oh, you have another idea, 263 00:15:46,245 --> 00:15:48,725 Speaker 3: And my editor said, oh, you have another idea, pray tell, 264 00:15:49,445 --> 00:15:55,005 Speaker 3: and so I said it's it's called Confessions of an 265 00:15:55,045 --> 00:16:01,125 Speaker 3: Ugly Stepsister. And the title was just born out of panic. 266 00:16:01,925 --> 00:16:05,885 Speaker 3: My subconscious invented it in order to have something say, 267 00:16:06,605 --> 00:16:10,285 Speaker 3: and my editor said, oh, that sounds wonderful. What is 268 00:16:10,325 --> 00:16:12,485 Speaker 3: it about? My agent said, yes, you didn't mention this, 269 00:16:12,605 --> 00:16:15,885 Speaker 3: what is it about? And I said, I never talk 270 00:16:15,925 --> 00:16:19,125 Speaker 3: about works in progress because I didn't know what it 271 00:16:19,165 --> 00:16:21,365 Speaker 3: was about. It was just a good title. But it 272 00:16:21,405 --> 00:16:24,045 Speaker 3: was intrigued and intriguing title to them. And on the 273 00:16:24,125 --> 00:16:28,045 Speaker 3: train back to Boston, I asked myself the question, well, 274 00:16:28,085 --> 00:16:30,725 Speaker 3: what does that title mean, Confessions of an Ugly Stepsister? 275 00:16:31,045 --> 00:16:32,005 Speaker 3: What is that about? 276 00:16:32,445 --> 00:16:32,645 Speaker 2: Oh? 277 00:16:32,925 --> 00:16:37,245 Speaker 3: Well, the ugly stepsisters are Cinderella figures. So I just 278 00:16:37,285 --> 00:16:38,125 Speaker 3: followed it from there. 279 00:16:39,685 --> 00:16:41,045 Speaker 1: That's absolutely great. 280 00:16:42,005 --> 00:16:47,685 Speaker 3: I'm so sorry it's such it's such a revealing, desperate story. 281 00:16:48,725 --> 00:16:50,005 Speaker 1: No, no, I love it. 282 00:16:51,325 --> 00:16:53,765 Speaker 3: But it shows, it shows that fairy tales are there 283 00:16:53,805 --> 00:16:55,205 Speaker 3: in there, like in the bedrock. 284 00:16:55,285 --> 00:16:57,285 Speaker 2: That's what I was gonna say, because like for you 285 00:16:57,325 --> 00:16:59,245 Speaker 2: just to just to pull that out out of nowhere 286 00:16:59,245 --> 00:17:00,605 Speaker 2: and be like, this is it and then you just 287 00:17:00,645 --> 00:17:01,125 Speaker 2: went with it. 288 00:17:01,165 --> 00:17:03,445 Speaker 1: And I mean, it's a fantastic book. I think it 289 00:17:03,485 --> 00:17:05,405 Speaker 1: was the first one I've read out of all your works. 290 00:17:05,525 --> 00:17:06,485 Speaker 1: And it's funny that you. 291 00:17:06,405 --> 00:17:09,565 Speaker 2: Say your adult novels, because I didn't realize until recently 292 00:17:09,605 --> 00:17:12,765 Speaker 2: that you wrote Leaping Beauty and so. 293 00:17:13,165 --> 00:17:15,485 Speaker 1: Yes, and I've been going through and reading those and that. 294 00:17:15,605 --> 00:17:18,125 Speaker 2: Was also where you're like, yeah, it was just one 295 00:17:18,205 --> 00:17:20,245 Speaker 2: night I had to sit down and I needed to 296 00:17:20,245 --> 00:17:22,085 Speaker 2: like make some money, and this is what came out. 297 00:17:22,165 --> 00:17:26,005 Speaker 2: But anyways, so what about Mirror Mirror then? Is it 298 00:17:26,045 --> 00:17:27,965 Speaker 2: something along those lines or was that like. 299 00:17:28,485 --> 00:17:31,725 Speaker 3: Well after you know, one of the reasons I resisted 300 00:17:31,965 --> 00:17:35,645 Speaker 3: Confessions at first, and one of the reasons why my 301 00:17:35,925 --> 00:17:39,365 Speaker 3: agent resisted me writing a sequel to Wicked right away 302 00:17:40,085 --> 00:17:44,125 Speaker 3: was neither he nor I wanted me to set myself 303 00:17:44,205 --> 00:17:47,285 Speaker 3: up in shop as the grown up writer who rewrites 304 00:17:47,405 --> 00:17:50,965 Speaker 3: children's books for adults audience. I didn't want to be like, 305 00:17:51,245 --> 00:17:54,765 Speaker 3: you know, put into that category. And also I wanted 306 00:17:54,765 --> 00:17:57,965 Speaker 3: to have a career that was that was a respectable career. 307 00:17:58,085 --> 00:18:01,285 Speaker 3: I didn't want to be seen to be taking my 308 00:18:01,525 --> 00:18:06,085 Speaker 3: audience or even my muse for granted. On the other hand, 309 00:18:07,085 --> 00:18:11,725 Speaker 3: children's stories and fairy tales particularly are deeply influential and 310 00:18:11,805 --> 00:18:14,885 Speaker 3: are important to me, and so when Confessions of an 311 00:18:14,925 --> 00:18:17,805 Speaker 3: all this substitute came up, I thought, well, I guess 312 00:18:18,085 --> 00:18:22,565 Speaker 3: you know. I tried eating the Bible and that didn't work, 313 00:18:22,605 --> 00:18:26,445 Speaker 3: and I do want to keep being published by an 314 00:18:26,485 --> 00:18:29,285 Speaker 3: adult house if possible, for no other reason than that 315 00:18:29,325 --> 00:18:33,085 Speaker 3: it pays about ten times better than children's books. And 316 00:18:33,165 --> 00:18:36,805 Speaker 3: Confessions did very well too, like right Away did well. 317 00:18:36,925 --> 00:18:39,965 Speaker 3: But after that I thought, hmm, I really want to 318 00:18:39,965 --> 00:18:43,525 Speaker 3: write a ghost story now, a contemporary ghost story. This 319 00:18:43,565 --> 00:18:46,165 Speaker 3: is the one that was eventually published as Lost. And 320 00:18:46,245 --> 00:18:50,605 Speaker 3: my agent said, well, Judith Reagan, your publisher wants you 321 00:18:50,685 --> 00:18:54,125 Speaker 3: to do another fairy tale or another children's book. Why 322 00:18:54,165 --> 00:18:57,605 Speaker 3: don't you do something about Alice? And I said, Alice 323 00:18:57,965 --> 00:19:02,605 Speaker 3: is a master work of English literature. The Wizard of 324 00:19:02,605 --> 00:19:05,285 Speaker 3: Oz is a good book and a strong story, but 325 00:19:05,365 --> 00:19:07,405 Speaker 3: it's not a master work. I mean, Analyss is up 326 00:19:07,445 --> 00:19:11,085 Speaker 3: there with Virginia Woolf and with you know, Emily Dickinson 327 00:19:11,125 --> 00:19:13,085 Speaker 3: and John Keats. I mean, it's a real work of 328 00:19:13,325 --> 00:19:17,925 Speaker 3: absolutely brilliance, and I would have enormous hubris to think 329 00:19:17,965 --> 00:19:20,885 Speaker 3: that I could improve on it or adam rate upon it. 330 00:19:21,365 --> 00:19:25,525 Speaker 3: But the fairy tales, because they're old and because they're 331 00:19:25,565 --> 00:19:28,525 Speaker 3: from the oral tradition, are a lot more porous and 332 00:19:28,605 --> 00:19:31,645 Speaker 3: open to interpretation, so you don't have to actually change 333 00:19:31,685 --> 00:19:35,285 Speaker 3: too much in order to make them more appealing. So 334 00:19:35,325 --> 00:19:38,045 Speaker 3: he said, she wants you to do snow White or something, 335 00:19:38,085 --> 00:19:40,365 Speaker 3: and I said, I want to do a ghost story. 336 00:19:40,525 --> 00:19:43,445 Speaker 3: He said, she's not going to buy it. She didn't 337 00:19:43,445 --> 00:19:45,045 Speaker 3: buy eating the Bible. She's not going to let you 338 00:19:45,125 --> 00:19:47,045 Speaker 3: do a ghost story. And I said, why don't you 339 00:19:47,085 --> 00:19:49,045 Speaker 3: go back to her and tell her I will do 340 00:19:49,725 --> 00:19:52,445 Speaker 3: a snow White story if she takes my ghost story 341 00:19:52,445 --> 00:19:55,445 Speaker 3: and publishes. At first he said she'll never say yes, 342 00:19:55,725 --> 00:19:59,365 Speaker 3: but she did so my third adult novel was lost, 343 00:19:59,805 --> 00:20:03,005 Speaker 3: and then I owed her a snow White story. I 344 00:20:03,045 --> 00:20:07,165 Speaker 3: began Mirror mirror by thinking about and this is an 345 00:20:07,245 --> 00:20:11,525 Speaker 3: analogy for all the ways that I work. I begin 346 00:20:11,645 --> 00:20:15,765 Speaker 3: by remembering the story before I even read it, remembering 347 00:20:15,805 --> 00:20:20,245 Speaker 3: it from childhood readings and rereadings, and thinking, what does 348 00:20:20,325 --> 00:20:22,685 Speaker 3: this convey to me? What do I think it meant? 349 00:20:22,925 --> 00:20:24,685 Speaker 3: What did I think it meant? What do I think 350 00:20:24,725 --> 00:20:28,485 Speaker 3: it means? Now? What's the disconnect between how the story 351 00:20:28,565 --> 00:20:31,125 Speaker 3: is told and what it really seems to be about? 352 00:20:31,845 --> 00:20:38,005 Speaker 3: I mean, Cinderella is either about beauty or virtue or 353 00:20:38,045 --> 00:20:41,445 Speaker 3: could it be about both? And what is snow White 354 00:20:41,485 --> 00:20:44,005 Speaker 3: about it? It's about being endangered and falling asleep and 355 00:20:44,045 --> 00:20:46,965 Speaker 3: waking up and being a different person when you wake up. 356 00:20:47,245 --> 00:20:51,685 Speaker 3: That's about education, that's about surviving adolescence and becoming an 357 00:20:51,725 --> 00:20:54,605 Speaker 3: agent in one's own life. The fact that she's a 358 00:20:54,645 --> 00:20:58,605 Speaker 3: passive character in the fairy tale is incidental to me. 359 00:20:59,205 --> 00:21:04,405 Speaker 3: So I began to think about the awakening mind of 360 00:21:04,805 --> 00:21:09,365 Speaker 3: Sleeping Beauty, and then I thought, well, when what are 361 00:21:09,365 --> 00:21:12,565 Speaker 3: the analogies for the awakening mind and Sleeping Beauty? And 362 00:21:12,605 --> 00:21:16,485 Speaker 3: I thought, the analogy for the awakening mind in our 363 00:21:16,565 --> 00:21:19,925 Speaker 3: Western culture is the Renaissance. It's when we came out 364 00:21:19,965 --> 00:21:22,365 Speaker 3: of the dark ages and started to think, this can't 365 00:21:22,405 --> 00:21:25,525 Speaker 3: mean that, it must mean this, and we must find 366 00:21:25,605 --> 00:21:28,485 Speaker 3: new ways to appreciate and understand what the world is 367 00:21:28,485 --> 00:21:32,725 Speaker 3: telling us. So that's why I set Mirror Mirror in 368 00:21:32,805 --> 00:21:36,085 Speaker 3: the High Renaissance at the turn of the fifteenth into 369 00:21:36,125 --> 00:21:40,885 Speaker 3: the sixteenth century. And then I began to research Lucreate, 370 00:21:41,005 --> 00:21:44,925 Speaker 3: sie A Borgia and Cesare Borgia and Alexander the sixth 371 00:21:45,325 --> 00:21:49,245 Speaker 3: So the meaning of the story sort of predicts where 372 00:21:49,285 --> 00:21:54,045 Speaker 3: it should be set and how it wants to unfold itself. 373 00:21:54,365 --> 00:21:57,725 Speaker 3: The same happened with Confessions. Initially started to set in 374 00:21:57,725 --> 00:22:01,165 Speaker 3: the eighteenth century Denmark, but I realized, no, this is 375 00:22:01,205 --> 00:22:05,165 Speaker 3: about something else. This is about the inflation of values 376 00:22:05,205 --> 00:22:07,365 Speaker 3: of being. And so then I thought of the tulip 377 00:22:07,445 --> 00:22:10,085 Speaker 3: boom and bust market in Holland in the early part 378 00:22:10,125 --> 00:22:13,845 Speaker 3: of the seventeenth century, which was concurrent with the rise 379 00:22:14,165 --> 00:22:19,205 Speaker 3: of the market of genre paintings and of paintings as 380 00:22:19,205 --> 00:22:25,085 Speaker 3: home decoration as opposed to celebrations of medieval pomp and 381 00:22:25,445 --> 00:22:29,645 Speaker 3: ecclesiastical power or religion. It was more about real people, 382 00:22:30,005 --> 00:22:33,365 Speaker 3: so that you know those things sort of, I sort 383 00:22:33,405 --> 00:22:35,925 Speaker 3: of work with my cultural understandings until I get the 384 00:22:35,965 --> 00:22:38,765 Speaker 3: setting that makes a lot of sense. And that's where 385 00:22:38,805 --> 00:22:39,885 Speaker 3: Mirror and Mary came from. 386 00:22:40,685 --> 00:22:41,165 Speaker 1: Got it. 387 00:22:41,285 --> 00:22:43,085 Speaker 2: And I was going to say, you've kind of spoken 388 00:22:43,085 --> 00:22:45,125 Speaker 2: on and our touched upon it as I've been speaking 389 00:22:45,165 --> 00:22:49,365 Speaker 2: to you, but as I'm learning more about fairy tales, 390 00:22:49,525 --> 00:22:51,885 Speaker 2: you know, and where they come from and everything, it's 391 00:22:51,885 --> 00:22:55,525 Speaker 2: always like snapshots of society's values, right, And so I'm 392 00:22:55,565 --> 00:22:56,365 Speaker 2: kind of curious. 393 00:22:56,565 --> 00:23:00,325 Speaker 1: You know, there's multiple adaptations between. 394 00:23:00,005 --> 00:23:03,245 Speaker 2: Brothers Grim and where we are now, And even with 395 00:23:03,285 --> 00:23:05,445 Speaker 2: your own adaptations, I feel like you're very nu once 396 00:23:05,845 --> 00:23:07,845 Speaker 2: how you go about it, Like you really like have 397 00:23:07,885 --> 00:23:10,445 Speaker 2: an idea and you just kind of want to dig 398 00:23:10,485 --> 00:23:14,085 Speaker 2: into it. So what are you hoping that your readers 399 00:23:14,685 --> 00:23:17,565 Speaker 2: get when they read these books, and like, do you 400 00:23:17,605 --> 00:23:18,925 Speaker 2: think that you've accomplished that? 401 00:23:20,405 --> 00:23:23,725 Speaker 3: Well, that's a really good question, and in a sense 402 00:23:23,845 --> 00:23:26,085 Speaker 3: you'd be better placed than I to answer the question 403 00:23:26,285 --> 00:23:30,165 Speaker 3: what I've accomplished. But what I did come away with 404 00:23:30,365 --> 00:23:33,725 Speaker 3: after a while is I kind of calm myself down. 405 00:23:33,845 --> 00:23:35,925 Speaker 3: I took a bromide. You know, I lay down in 406 00:23:35,965 --> 00:23:39,285 Speaker 3: a dark room with washcloth over my eyes for about 407 00:23:39,325 --> 00:23:43,725 Speaker 3: two years, and I said to myself, you know, these 408 00:23:43,765 --> 00:23:47,325 Speaker 3: stories with which you're working, the Fairy Tales in particular, 409 00:23:48,405 --> 00:23:50,645 Speaker 3: but to some extent, Alice in Wonderland too, Because I 410 00:23:50,685 --> 00:23:54,805 Speaker 3: eventually got the hubris to try a look in on Alice. 411 00:23:55,085 --> 00:23:59,565 Speaker 3: These stories are There's no way you can ruin them. 412 00:23:59,965 --> 00:24:03,125 Speaker 3: You are just a writer writing within your particular decades 413 00:24:03,165 --> 00:24:07,365 Speaker 3: for your particular audience. These stories are eternal. Alice is 414 00:24:07,405 --> 00:24:11,205 Speaker 3: a work of art. You couldn't wreck it even if 415 00:24:11,245 --> 00:24:14,485 Speaker 3: you wanted to. You couldn't abuse it. It is stronger 416 00:24:14,525 --> 00:24:18,205 Speaker 3: than you, so you have just as much right to 417 00:24:18,245 --> 00:24:21,365 Speaker 3: look at it as anybody else. A cat can look 418 00:24:21,365 --> 00:24:23,445 Speaker 3: at a king, and the same thing goes for the 419 00:24:23,445 --> 00:24:26,685 Speaker 3: fairy tales. If you can make fun of them, as 420 00:24:26,725 --> 00:24:30,205 Speaker 3: I did in Leaping Beauty. You can take them as 421 00:24:30,405 --> 00:24:35,045 Speaker 3: the settings for moral questions, as I did in Mirror 422 00:24:35,085 --> 00:24:40,165 Speaker 3: Mirror and in Confessions of Another Stepsister. But they are 423 00:24:40,525 --> 00:24:43,725 Speaker 3: much stronger than you are. And long after the last 424 00:24:43,765 --> 00:24:46,885 Speaker 3: copy of any known book of yours is writting in 425 00:24:46,925 --> 00:24:49,885 Speaker 3: a landfill, the fairy tales are going to exist. They're 426 00:24:49,885 --> 00:24:52,685 Speaker 3: going to continue, and they're going to be reinterpreted by 427 00:24:52,685 --> 00:24:54,605 Speaker 3: somebody else in fifty years or a hundred years, or 428 00:24:54,605 --> 00:24:57,605 Speaker 3: a hundred fifty years. So once I once I slotted 429 00:24:57,645 --> 00:25:02,765 Speaker 3: myself as a very minuscule player in their particular literary histories, 430 00:25:03,325 --> 00:25:06,805 Speaker 3: then I actually began to relax and thought, no, I 431 00:25:06,885 --> 00:25:10,565 Speaker 3: have as much privilege and as much right and authority 432 00:25:10,565 --> 00:25:13,685 Speaker 3: as anybody else to look at Cinderella and think, what 433 00:25:13,725 --> 00:25:16,365 Speaker 3: does Cinderella mean to me? It doesn't mean that I 434 00:25:16,405 --> 00:25:19,445 Speaker 3: have the answer to Cinderella. It just means I have 435 00:25:19,565 --> 00:25:22,445 Speaker 3: my answer, or I have my answer for right now 436 00:25:22,485 --> 00:25:24,085 Speaker 3: in my life. Maybe in twenty years I'll have a 437 00:25:24,125 --> 00:25:26,725 Speaker 3: different answer. Who knows. So I don't think I have 438 00:25:26,765 --> 00:25:29,685 Speaker 3: any particular thing I want to convey, but I do 439 00:25:29,725 --> 00:25:32,765 Speaker 3: think the overall impression I want to give is that 440 00:25:32,805 --> 00:25:35,005 Speaker 3: these things belong to all of us. They are a 441 00:25:35,125 --> 00:25:40,005 Speaker 3: UNESCO World Heritage Site. The fairy tales of the Brothers, 442 00:25:40,045 --> 00:25:44,685 Speaker 3: grim End of Buro, and basically world fairy tales belong 443 00:25:44,805 --> 00:25:49,405 Speaker 3: to all of us. And there's no reason not to 444 00:25:49,565 --> 00:25:53,085 Speaker 3: indulge in learning and enjoying and even playing with them. 445 00:25:53,285 --> 00:25:56,365 Speaker 3: And there's no fear. There should be no fear in 446 00:25:56,405 --> 00:26:00,085 Speaker 3: thinking you can accidentally ruin them. You can't, You're not 447 00:26:00,245 --> 00:26:00,925 Speaker 3: that strong. 448 00:26:03,365 --> 00:26:13,085 Speaker 2: We'll be back after the break. So I spoke with 449 00:26:13,125 --> 00:26:15,805 Speaker 2: author Greg gry maguire and had a few questions left 450 00:26:15,805 --> 00:26:18,645 Speaker 2: for him, one being if he had a favorite brother's 451 00:26:18,685 --> 00:26:19,525 Speaker 2: Groom fairy tale. 452 00:26:20,845 --> 00:26:24,525 Speaker 3: Well, I wouldn't have said either Snowhder, Cinderella, or my 453 00:26:24,605 --> 00:26:32,165 Speaker 3: favorites as a kid. There's something absolutely alluring about Rapunzel 454 00:26:32,285 --> 00:26:35,125 Speaker 3: to me. And Rapunzel I think it's kind of like 455 00:26:35,165 --> 00:26:38,405 Speaker 3: a second tier story. I don't think it's most people's 456 00:26:38,445 --> 00:26:43,205 Speaker 3: favorite grim tale, but there's something about the specificity of 457 00:26:43,245 --> 00:26:50,365 Speaker 3: that child being locked in a tower and having such 458 00:26:50,485 --> 00:26:56,525 Speaker 3: well fortified hair such well, you know, I don't know 459 00:26:56,565 --> 00:27:00,245 Speaker 3: what her hair conditioner is, but boy, she's really getting 460 00:27:00,285 --> 00:27:03,365 Speaker 3: the egg proteins in that hair. She's able to haul 461 00:27:03,485 --> 00:27:06,965 Speaker 3: up her lover night after night after night night on 462 00:27:07,325 --> 00:27:11,445 Speaker 3: the strength of her tresses. It's almost Scandinavian. It's almost 463 00:27:11,485 --> 00:27:14,805 Speaker 3: like something out of that should be happening in Valhalla, 464 00:27:15,045 --> 00:27:18,085 Speaker 3: or really in ancient Greece. You know. It's just so 465 00:27:20,045 --> 00:27:21,605 Speaker 3: I can't even think of the words for it as 466 00:27:21,605 --> 00:27:24,285 Speaker 3: I'm talking to you about it. I did once think 467 00:27:24,285 --> 00:27:27,565 Speaker 3: I might write a book called Rapunzel in America, but 468 00:27:28,005 --> 00:27:30,685 Speaker 3: I never did it. And then I saw a couple 469 00:27:30,725 --> 00:27:32,925 Speaker 3: of people had done things sort of a little bit 470 00:27:33,045 --> 00:27:34,765 Speaker 3: like what was on the edge of what I was 471 00:27:34,805 --> 00:27:37,525 Speaker 3: thinking of. So who knows if I keep writing, Maybe 472 00:27:37,525 --> 00:27:39,325 Speaker 3: I will one day. Now I have a past review. 473 00:27:39,365 --> 00:27:42,965 Speaker 3: I don't know whether in your homework for this hour 474 00:27:43,605 --> 00:27:49,525 Speaker 3: you have had a chance to read my novel from 475 00:27:49,565 --> 00:27:52,845 Speaker 3: about six or seven years ago, called Hidden Sea. 476 00:27:54,045 --> 00:27:59,965 Speaker 2: No I read the Dreams Stealer, Yeah, yeah, with all 477 00:28:00,005 --> 00:28:03,565 Speaker 2: the Russian folklore, yes yes, or that. 478 00:28:03,485 --> 00:28:08,405 Speaker 3: One yeah well, and c hid d e n See 479 00:28:09,885 --> 00:28:12,405 Speaker 3: looks a little bit like hide and Seek, but it's 480 00:28:12,485 --> 00:28:15,045 Speaker 3: also the name of an actual island off the coast 481 00:28:15,085 --> 00:28:19,885 Speaker 3: of northern Germany. And I wanted to write the life story, 482 00:28:20,285 --> 00:28:22,725 Speaker 3: just as Wicked is the life story of the wicked 483 00:28:22,725 --> 00:28:28,045 Speaker 3: Witch of the West from birth to death. Hidden c 484 00:28:28,645 --> 00:28:31,365 Speaker 3: is the life story of the man who had grow 485 00:28:31,445 --> 00:28:36,285 Speaker 3: up to be Godfather Josselmeier, who carves the nutcracker and 486 00:28:36,325 --> 00:28:39,925 Speaker 3: gives it to Clara on Christmas Eve or New Year's Eve. 487 00:28:40,245 --> 00:28:43,285 Speaker 3: And I now think and I pausit this in Hidden 488 00:28:43,245 --> 00:28:48,645 Speaker 3: and see that European fair tales, in particular, at least 489 00:28:48,645 --> 00:28:53,005 Speaker 3: in part ohe some of their genetic material to Greek 490 00:28:53,045 --> 00:28:57,485 Speaker 3: myths and to myths of all the Mediterranean base. And 491 00:28:57,645 --> 00:28:59,565 Speaker 3: this is not true just for the West too, but 492 00:28:59,645 --> 00:29:03,085 Speaker 3: the West is where the grim fairy tales emerged. So 493 00:29:03,245 --> 00:29:07,605 Speaker 3: in my book Hidden see Godfather Drossomeyer has a kind 494 00:29:07,645 --> 00:29:11,325 Speaker 3: of out of the body experience. He's actually hit by 495 00:29:11,365 --> 00:29:14,085 Speaker 3: a falling tree and he dies but comes back to life, 496 00:29:14,685 --> 00:29:18,045 Speaker 3: and he is clued into the fact that magic is 497 00:29:18,125 --> 00:29:24,805 Speaker 3: disappearing from the industrial world, and the lands of fairy, 498 00:29:25,205 --> 00:29:30,445 Speaker 3: the lands of the gods, the lands of Oberon, and 499 00:29:31,005 --> 00:29:35,965 Speaker 3: of the forest of Brasolian and of Camelot. They are 500 00:29:36,525 --> 00:29:42,165 Speaker 3: evaporating in the wake of the industrial revolution and in 501 00:29:42,205 --> 00:29:45,325 Speaker 3: the wake of the industrialization of Europe, which of course 502 00:29:45,365 --> 00:29:47,365 Speaker 3: what's happening at the beginning of the Romantic Era as 503 00:29:47,365 --> 00:29:50,125 Speaker 3: part of what fomented the Romantic Era and the rise 504 00:29:50,165 --> 00:29:56,965 Speaker 3: of fairy tales. So Drassmeyer asks his interlocutors where is 505 00:29:57,005 --> 00:30:02,525 Speaker 3: this going? And they say, humankind cannot live without its 506 00:30:02,565 --> 00:30:07,285 Speaker 3: other world. It cannot live without its and it's os 507 00:30:08,005 --> 00:30:12,165 Speaker 3: and its wonderlands. It cannot live without Purgatory and Hell 508 00:30:12,685 --> 00:30:16,605 Speaker 3: and Heaven. It cannot live without the Island of Capri 509 00:30:17,125 --> 00:30:21,205 Speaker 3: or without Atlantis. It cannot live without having an alternate 510 00:30:21,805 --> 00:30:27,085 Speaker 3: map of an imagined space. It will not survive. But 511 00:30:27,805 --> 00:30:33,445 Speaker 3: industry is crowding it out the magic forest in which 512 00:30:33,485 --> 00:30:37,085 Speaker 3: the gods lived. It has to go somewhere. Where Where 513 00:30:37,085 --> 00:30:41,645 Speaker 3: can it go? And what Drosselmeyer does is carved the nutcracker, 514 00:30:42,565 --> 00:30:46,365 Speaker 3: realizing that in the lives of children, the worlds of 515 00:30:46,485 --> 00:30:51,525 Speaker 3: magic and the magic Forest will stay potent even if 516 00:30:51,565 --> 00:30:54,045 Speaker 3: they turn their backs on it when they go to 517 00:30:54,085 --> 00:30:57,885 Speaker 3: middle school. We need it for our own mental health, 518 00:30:58,165 --> 00:30:59,525 Speaker 3: and we need it in order to be able to 519 00:30:59,525 --> 00:31:03,165 Speaker 3: survive the indignity of having been born human and so 520 00:31:04,005 --> 00:31:05,285 Speaker 3: immensely corruptible. 521 00:31:07,005 --> 00:31:10,885 Speaker 2: Wow, that's like you kind of just blew my mind there. 522 00:31:10,965 --> 00:31:13,725 Speaker 2: To be honest, I was just like, oh, wow, I 523 00:31:14,165 --> 00:31:17,005 Speaker 2: never never really thought of it that way, but that 524 00:31:17,125 --> 00:31:21,605 Speaker 2: was that was beautiful And yeah, and I absolutely agree 525 00:31:21,605 --> 00:31:21,845 Speaker 2: with you. 526 00:31:21,885 --> 00:31:23,325 Speaker 1: We definitely do need that magic. 527 00:31:23,365 --> 00:31:26,685 Speaker 2: We have to keep it so stories are for everyone, 528 00:31:26,925 --> 00:31:30,645 Speaker 2: not just kids, especially fairy tales, but adults need it 529 00:31:30,685 --> 00:31:31,045 Speaker 2: as well. 530 00:31:31,125 --> 00:31:33,565 Speaker 1: We need a little bit of magic cheap is going well? 531 00:31:33,885 --> 00:31:36,565 Speaker 3: Well, back back to your original thesis about why you 532 00:31:36,565 --> 00:31:38,285 Speaker 3: wanted to talk to me about fair tales. Men, you 533 00:31:38,325 --> 00:31:41,485 Speaker 3: and I are not in third grade. We are grown ups. 534 00:31:41,525 --> 00:31:43,565 Speaker 3: You know. We worry about the next elections, We worry 535 00:31:43,565 --> 00:31:47,245 Speaker 3: about global warming, and we worry about our retirement funds. 536 00:31:47,285 --> 00:31:49,445 Speaker 3: We worry about our kids, We worry about the next 537 00:31:49,685 --> 00:31:53,525 Speaker 3: virus and water quality, and who knows what the whole 538 00:31:53,525 --> 00:31:56,885 Speaker 3: thing is there to pester us and to bruise us 539 00:31:57,165 --> 00:32:00,405 Speaker 3: and to make us incompetent with anxiety. But here we 540 00:32:00,445 --> 00:32:04,205 Speaker 3: are talking about fair tales to two educated, grown adults. 541 00:32:04,805 --> 00:32:07,245 Speaker 3: And what I think of is that fairy tales are 542 00:32:07,285 --> 00:32:12,845 Speaker 3: a little bit like they're like parables, or like aspirins. 543 00:32:13,445 --> 00:32:20,325 Speaker 3: Maybe in this modern world, maybe they're like gummies. They're 544 00:32:20,445 --> 00:32:26,565 Speaker 3: a little portable bit of potency that we can take 545 00:32:26,685 --> 00:32:31,965 Speaker 3: and carry with us. And sometimes I carry little scraps 546 00:32:31,965 --> 00:32:35,365 Speaker 3: of poetry in my pockets. I don't necessarily take them out, 547 00:32:35,405 --> 00:32:39,045 Speaker 3: but it's something that's there in my pocket that supports me. 548 00:32:39,285 --> 00:32:41,285 Speaker 3: And I think fairy tales are like that for a 549 00:32:41,325 --> 00:32:43,365 Speaker 3: lot of people. And I also think they're like that 550 00:32:43,405 --> 00:32:45,565 Speaker 3: for a lot of people and they don't even know it, 551 00:32:45,645 --> 00:32:48,645 Speaker 3: and that's okay, that's okay, but you know it and 552 00:32:48,725 --> 00:32:49,285 Speaker 3: I know it. 553 00:32:53,845 --> 00:32:56,445 Speaker 2: To learn more about New York Times best selling author 554 00:32:56,485 --> 00:33:01,805 Speaker 2: Gregory Maguire, you can visit his website at Gregorymaguire dot com. 555 00:33:01,925 --> 00:33:05,725 Speaker 2: That g r E g O R y A g 556 00:33:06,285 --> 00:33:09,725 Speaker 2: U I r E dot com. 557 00:33:09,885 --> 00:33:11,525 Speaker 1: Next time, we get into one. 558 00:33:11,365 --> 00:33:15,445 Speaker 2: Of the darkest tales, The Brothers Grim Ever Collected the 559 00:33:15,485 --> 00:33:18,005 Speaker 2: Deep Dark Woods is a production of School of Humans 560 00:33:18,045 --> 00:33:22,125 Speaker 2: and iHeart Podcasts. It was created, written, and hosted by 561 00:33:22,165 --> 00:33:27,765 Speaker 2: me Miranda Hawkins. Senior producer is Gabby Watts. Executive producers 562 00:33:27,845 --> 00:33:32,685 Speaker 2: are Virginia Prescott, Brandon Barr, Elsie Crowley, and Maya Howard. 563 00:33:33,685 --> 00:33:37,405 Speaker 2: Theme song was composed by Jesse Niswanger, who also sound 564 00:33:37,485 --> 00:33:41,365 Speaker 2: designed and mixed this episode. You can follow the show 565 00:33:41,405 --> 00:33:44,325 Speaker 2: on Instagram at School of Humans and don't forget to 566 00:33:44,365 --> 00:33:45,925 Speaker 2: subscribe and leave a review.