Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind from how Stuff
Speaker 1: Works dot Com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind.
Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. And
Speaker 1: today we've got a very special episode for you all
Speaker 1: out there. We are doing a partnership with National Geographic YEA.
Speaker 1: So they've got a new show coming out called One
Speaker 1: Strange Rock and it is produced by Darren Aronofsky of
Speaker 1: Mini Movie Fame and all about it's all about the
Speaker 1: science of planet Earth and the sort of intricate interconnected
Speaker 1: processes both geological and biological to keep the Earth stable
Speaker 1: as a sanctuary for life as we know it. And
Speaker 1: in that sense, it has a kind of uh, ecological
Speaker 1: Alexander von Humboldt kind of vibe that I really like.
Speaker 1: I like it when you can see the large scale
Speaker 1: and small scale interconnectedness of all things to to make
Speaker 1: the world how it is. Yes, And speaking of Steve,
Speaker 1: this is a visual spectacle. Yeah, it's got a lot
Speaker 1: of really beautiful photography and it's hosted by Will Smith.
Speaker 1: I don't know if he ever says Welcome to Earth,
Speaker 1: and it kind of hope so, uh, And it it
Speaker 1: tells stories through the experiences of a large cast of
Speaker 1: real life astronauts who are the only humans ever to
Speaker 1: venture beyond the shield that protects us from the universe
Speaker 1: at large. And so because of our partnership with National
Speaker 1: Geographic for this episode, we got an opportunity to talk
Speaker 1: to one of the astronauts on the show, Dr Jeff Hoffman,
Speaker 1: who flew five Space Shuttle missions, including a Hubble Space
Speaker 1: telescope repair mission. And this is a great interview. We're
Speaker 1: just delighted to share it with everybody. Yeah. Dr Hoffman
Speaker 1: is very knowledgeable from multiple vantage points about the thing
Speaker 1: that we're gonna be focusing on today, which is the
Speaker 1: radiation risk from space and how Earth protects us. And
Speaker 1: he's knowledgeable in a couple of different domains because he's
Speaker 1: done high energy astrophysics and knows all about the radiation
Speaker 1: environment of our Solar system in the universe at large.
Speaker 1: But he also has a direct experience of what it's
Speaker 1: like to be an astronaut out in space to sort
Speaker 1: of go beyond our protective barriers. And that kind of
Speaker 1: perspective is kind of hard to come by because I
Speaker 1: would say, one thing, it's really easy to lose sight
Speaker 1: of in your day to day life, when you're reading
Speaker 1: about politics or playing with your dog or making some dinner.
Speaker 1: Is that your body is made of molecules, and in
Speaker 1: order for molecules in your body to do what they do,
Speaker 1: they have to remain what they are. And most of
Speaker 1: the time, the internal chemistry of our bodies is pretty stable, right,
Speaker 1: But we have to recognize that the chemical stability of
Speaker 1: our bodies is an enormous and unique privilege provided to
Speaker 1: us by virtue of the fact that we live on
Speaker 1: planet Earth. Yea. And this we get into a truth
Speaker 1: that we touch on quite a bit on the show,
Speaker 1: and that is that Earth is just the right planet
Speaker 1: for life as we know it. Kind of unsurprising, of course,
Speaker 1: being creatures that evolved on planet Earth, that planet Earth
Speaker 1: is just the right planet for us. But despite realizing
Speaker 1: the kind of anthropic obviousness of that fact, it is
Speaker 1: still a kind of strange and comforting feeling. Well, wait
Speaker 1: a minute, is it comforting or is it discomforting? The
Speaker 1: fact that most of the universe is going to be
Speaker 1: so hostile to us, so unbelievably hostile, so incredibly violent,
Speaker 1: that it's just impossible to even consider. And I'm not
Speaker 1: even talking about the vaporizing heat of stars or the cold,
Speaker 1: airless void of deep space. I'm talking about the fact
Speaker 1: that the universe is an acid bath of killer radiation,
Speaker 1: including ionizing radiation, which often takes the form of these
Speaker 1: high energy charged particles that blast through animal bodies, damaging
Speaker 1: and changing the molecules within them as they go along,
Speaker 1: and even changing the DNA of ourselves, altering the blueprints
Speaker 1: for cell replication and bringing about tissue damage, sterility, and cancer.
Speaker 1: And so that body integrity and chemical stability we so
Speaker 1: take for granted to keep living is only possible because
Speaker 1: of the planet, the inhabit which shields us from being
Speaker 1: blasted by the Sun nearby and by the galaxy at large. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's it's interesting to think about this that we we
Speaker 1: are creatures of the shallows. So life as we know
Speaker 1: it essentially thrives in a tide pool, protected from the
Speaker 1: full onslaught of wind and wave. You know, if you've
Speaker 1: ever been to a to a number of beach environments,
Speaker 1: you've seen those areas right where um, where that the
Speaker 1: waves are crashing but there, but but there's this pool,
Speaker 1: this uh, this area of calm water that is protected
Speaker 1: from all of that, and that's where a lot of
Speaker 1: life can thrive that otherwise would not be able to
Speaker 1: bear the hostilities beyond the rocks. And it actually reminds
Speaker 1: me of this quote by John Steinbeck Uh and and uh,
Speaker 1: he's not directly talking about what we're talking about here,
Speaker 1: but the comparison is just beautiful. He he wrote, the
Speaker 1: knowledge that all things are one thing, and then one
Speaker 1: thing is all things plankton, a shimmering phosphorescence on the sea,
Speaker 1: and the spinning planets and an expanding universe, all bound
Speaker 1: together by the elastic string of time. It is advisable
Speaker 1: to look from the tide pool to the stars and
Speaker 1: then back to the tide pool again. Yeah, our earth
Speaker 1: is protected not from wind and waves, but from the
Speaker 1: full blast of solar and cosmic radiation. Instead of rocky
Speaker 1: sea walls were protected by a robust atmosphere and most importantly,
Speaker 1: the magnetosphere. Yeah. The interesting other side to the fact
Speaker 1: that we've got this kind of connected consciousness that we're
Speaker 1: aware of, Like there is no real division between the
Speaker 1: Earth and the heavens. They're just different places. The only
Speaker 1: real division is distance, And so all the universe really
Speaker 1: is connected and does have a common origin in the
Speaker 1: Big Bang. But at the same time that connectedness, we
Speaker 1: use the word connected in such a happy way. It's
Speaker 1: like nice to be connected to things. But you can
Speaker 1: also think about that is extreme vulnerability, like you are
Speaker 1: right next door to everything in the universe that would
Speaker 1: Russian annihilate you. And what we've got standing in the
Speaker 1: way of those those crushing annihilating forces beyond our power
Speaker 1: to control, is essentially a big magnetic field and a
Speaker 1: thin layer of gas around the rocky surface of the planet.
Speaker 1: That's right. So basically what we have going on here
Speaker 1: is the Earth solid intercore and liquid outer core. They
Speaker 1: play a crucial role in protecting life as we know
Speaker 1: it from deadly deadly radiation. Differences in temperature and composition
Speaker 1: in the two core regions drive a powerful dynamo emitting
Speaker 1: Earth project protective electro magnetic field. And remember this is
Speaker 1: one of the key factors we have to consider improposed
Speaker 1: interplanetary space travel and establishing stations in other worlds. The
Speaker 1: only planets in our Solar System with some form of
Speaker 1: magnetosphere in place our Mercury, Earth, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, and Neptune. Right,
Speaker 1: so then, of course you've also on the surface of
Speaker 1: the Earth got the atmosphere to count on, because that
Speaker 1: means that there's more stuff that radiation has to get
Speaker 1: through to it to you, and so the atmosphere will
Speaker 1: block some kinds of incoming radiation. But the other big
Speaker 1: protector is the magnetosphere that keeps these particles directed away
Speaker 1: from the Earth. Some of course still get through, right,
Speaker 1: And also the magnetosphere serves to protect the atmosphere as well, Yes,
Speaker 1: because if you don't have a magnetosphere, your atmosphere over
Speaker 1: time can be stripped away, which is one of the
Speaker 1: things that they think probably happen to Mars long ago. Right.
Speaker 1: So it's our protective barrier against the elements. It's our battlements.
Speaker 1: And the only humans who have walked these battlements are
Speaker 1: astronauts such as Dr Jeff Hoffman. Now, most astronauts never
Speaker 1: even go beyond the shield that protects us, right, we
Speaker 1: know that astronauts in space are exposed to extra levels
Speaker 1: of radiation, and that's one reason you want to limit
Speaker 1: your time and space. You're like, you can't go live
Speaker 1: in the I S S forever. They want to bring
Speaker 1: you back eventually because the more time you spend up there,
Speaker 1: the more you're exposed to this dangerous radiation that could
Speaker 1: harm you in the long run. But even up in
Speaker 1: the I s s you're still you're still benefiting from
Speaker 1: a large part of the Earth's protective shield. Right. Yes,
Speaker 1: it gets a lot worse if you want to go
Speaker 1: to the Moon, right to Mars, or colonize another planet. Yeah,
Speaker 1: because then you're going beyond Earth's protection. So I guess
Speaker 1: we want to go now to our conversation with Dr
Speaker 1: Jeff Hoffman UH to talk about the radiation risks posed
Speaker 1: by the universe and what astronauts have done and can
Speaker 1: do to protect themselves. But first I guess we should
Speaker 1: give you just a little bit of background on Dr Hoffman. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So his original research interest were in high energy astrophysics,
Speaker 1: specifically cosmic gamma radiation and X ray astronomy, and then
Speaker 1: his doctoral work at Harvard entailed balloon born low energy
Speaker 1: gamma ray telescopes and the design and then the testing
Speaker 1: of this technology. From nineteen seventy to nineteen seventy five.
Speaker 1: During post doctoral work at Leicester University, he worked on
Speaker 1: several X ray astronomy rocket payloads, and then he worked
Speaker 1: in the Center for Space Research at the Massachusetts Institute
Speaker 1: of Technology from nineteen seventy five to nineteen seventy eight
Speaker 1: as projects scientist in charge of the orbiting h e
Speaker 1: A oh one A four hard X ray and gamma
Speaker 1: ray experiment, which launched in August ninety seven. But then
Speaker 1: in seventy eight he was selected to become an astronaut
Speaker 1: and he went on a total of five different Shuttle flights.
Speaker 1: So in eighty five he went up on a Discovery,
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety on Columbia, two on Atlantis, ninety three on Endeavor,
Speaker 1: and then in nine on Columbia. All told, one thousand,
Speaker 1: two hundred and eleven hours in space twenty one point
Speaker 1: five million miles. That's a lot of miles. Frequent flyer, Yeah,
Speaker 1: so he he is a not only a pedigreed scientist,
Speaker 1: of a pedigreed astronaut. Five Shuttle flights, that's impressive. That's
Speaker 1: five more than the vast majority of human beings. All right,
Speaker 1: we're gonna take a quick break and when we come back,
Speaker 1: we will be heading straight into our interview with Dr
Speaker 1: Jeff Hoffman. Thank hey, Dr Hoffman, welcome to the show.
Speaker 1: We're really glad to have you well, nice to be here,
Speaker 1: looking forward to it. I was wondering if you'd would
Speaker 1: start off by telling us a little bit about your
Speaker 1: research from before you became an astronaut. What what made
Speaker 1: you interested in high energy astrophysics and um, what were
Speaker 1: your pursuits in that field. Well, I grew up with
Speaker 1: an interest in space. I lived in or near New
Speaker 1: York City. My dad used to take me to the
Speaker 1: planetarium to see the new show every month. UM. I
Speaker 1: saw the birth of the space age. You know, I
Speaker 1: was alive whence but Nick was first launched when You're
Speaker 1: a Gagaran and John Glenn flew and so. I was
Speaker 1: also interested in human spaceflight, although it was apparent to
Speaker 1: me that all the early astronauts were military test pilots
Speaker 1: and that was not a career for me. But space
Speaker 1: in general I was fascinated with and went on to
Speaker 1: become an astronomer. I got a doctorate in an astrophysics
Speaker 1: at Harvard UM, and I was attracted by UH, what
Speaker 1: we call high energy astrophysics. It was a totally new
Speaker 1: field at the time UM the discovery of X rays
Speaker 1: from celestial objects and gamma rays. UM. It was a
Speaker 1: new branch of astronomy opening up just like radio astronomy
Speaker 1: opened up back in the nineteen thirties. And UM that
Speaker 1: struck me as being UH an area where we were
Speaker 1: almost bound to make new discoveries because we had never
Speaker 1: looked at this type of radiation before. So my professional
Speaker 1: career as an astronomer consisted in designing X ray telescopes
Speaker 1: and then putting them into space. First with I was
Speaker 1: using high altitude balloons when I did my pH d thesis,
Speaker 1: and then UM I spent three and a half years
Speaker 1: at Leicester University in England, UH and we had both
Speaker 1: sounding rocket experiments where we would put our telescopes up
Speaker 1: above the atmosphere. You have to go above the atmosphere
Speaker 1: because X rays and gamma rays are absorbed in the atmosphere,
Speaker 1: which is a good thing for us here on the ground,
Speaker 1: but it makes life difficult for astronomers because you have
Speaker 1: to go above the atmosphere to see this radiation. And
Speaker 1: and that was kind of cool as well, because I
Speaker 1: was always interested in space and rockets and and so
Speaker 1: I was combining the technological interest with what I thought
Speaker 1: was a very exciting scientific field. And then I came
Speaker 1: back to M I t and we we had actually
Speaker 1: our own X ray satellite, and the most exciting research
Speaker 1: that I was doing we discovered these things called X
Speaker 1: ray bursts. You look at an X ray object giving
Speaker 1: out relatively low level of radiation fairly constantly, you know,
Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden, you know, bam, it
Speaker 1: increases by hundreds and hundreds of times and then gradually
Speaker 1: fades away over the course of anywhere from a few
Speaker 1: seconds to a few minutes. And we we discovered lots
Speaker 1: of these, and this was a completely new phenomena, and
Speaker 1: that was probably the most exciting thing that I did scientifically,
Speaker 1: was uh, finally figure out what was what was causing these.
Speaker 1: It was actually neutron stars um orbiting around regular stars,
Speaker 1: and the gravitation of the neutron star was such that
Speaker 1: it would suck hydrogen off the regular star, and the
Speaker 1: hydrogen would accumulate in a layer on the surface of
Speaker 1: the neutron star, and then eventually the whole thing would
Speaker 1: detonate in a in a huge thermonuclear explosion. So what
Speaker 1: we were looking at were hydrogen bombs, you know, ten
Speaker 1: miles in diameter. Uh, you know, it's pretty spectacular stuff.
Speaker 1: So that was really exciting, and I was all set
Speaker 1: for a uh you know, career as an astronomer. And
Speaker 1: but that was now in the mid to late seventies
Speaker 1: when NASA was getting ready to fly what was then
Speaker 1: the brand new Space Shuttle. And neat thing about the
Speaker 1: Stay Shuttle from my point of view, was that it
Speaker 1: had a crew of seven, but they only needed two pilots.
Speaker 1: The pilots were still going to be military test pilots,
Speaker 1: but it really opened things up for engineers, scientists, and
Speaker 1: medical doctors. And when NASA put out a call for
Speaker 1: for astronauts for the Space Shuttle and and indicated that yes,
Speaker 1: they really did want scientists and engineers and doctors, um,
Speaker 1: I thought, well, I'll apply and I was lucky enough
Speaker 1: to get selected the first time around. So that basically
Speaker 1: was the end of my career and astronomy research. I
Speaker 1: had a I'd say it was quite successful, and had
Speaker 1: I not been selected, I I hope I would have
Speaker 1: had a good career as a research aster physicist. But
Speaker 1: getting selected by Nazis and astroall certainly changed my life. Interesting,
Speaker 1: before we ask you about a little bit of your
Speaker 1: spaceflight experience, I just wonder does research into high energy astrophysics, Like,
Speaker 1: if you're looking at neutron stars and bursts of X
Speaker 1: rays and gamma rays and stuff in the universe, does
Speaker 1: that change the way you feel about the sky when
Speaker 1: you look up at it and most people look up
Speaker 1: and see twinkling stars and it feels kind of nice
Speaker 1: and cool and calm. Do you do you envision the
Speaker 1: universe emotionally as one full of radiation and danger and
Speaker 1: high energy? Oh? Absolutely? I mean, you know, when you
Speaker 1: look up, just a simple look up at the stars,
Speaker 1: everything looks pretty constant and unvarying. And when you realize
Speaker 1: that there's things exploding and going off all over the
Speaker 1: place that trem in this areas of high gravitation, high
Speaker 1: magnetic fields, charge particles. Uh, yeah, the universe is a
Speaker 1: pretty violent place. Um and uh, you don't see it
Speaker 1: with your naked eye, but modern astronomy has has opened
Speaker 1: this up to us. Dr Hoffman, can you tell us
Speaker 1: about some of your your space flight experience? So what
Speaker 1: was the Hubble service mission? Like, well, let me let
Speaker 1: me start a little bit further back with my first
Speaker 1: base flight, because that, of course, for any astronaut, is
Speaker 1: is an exciting moment when you get the call from
Speaker 1: management and they say, oh, you've been You've got an
Speaker 1: assignment to your first space flight. Um. We were supposed
Speaker 1: to take up two satellites and put them into orbit
Speaker 1: and theres pop them out of the cargo bay of
Speaker 1: the shovel, which was what the shovel was doing in
Speaker 1: the early days, and then come home. It was going
Speaker 1: to be a short, relatively short mission four days or so. UM.
Speaker 1: And as it turned out, the second of the two
Speaker 1: satellites that we popped out of the Shuttle didn't turn on. UM.
Speaker 1: You know, I had nothing to do with us. All
Speaker 1: we were supposed to do was was get it out
Speaker 1: of the Shuttle into orbit. But when when we reported
Speaker 1: that it did not seem to have activated, NASA went
Speaker 1: into a big study mode and they figured out the
Speaker 1: there was only one single point failure that we could
Speaker 1: possibly do something about. There's a little switch on the
Speaker 1: outside of the satellite that maybe had gotten stuck. And
Speaker 1: so they scheduled, for the first time in NASA history,
Speaker 1: an unplanned spacewalk where my partner and I went out.
Speaker 1: See I had been trained to use space suits, but
Speaker 1: we weren't planning to do a space walk on my
Speaker 1: first flight, but they sent us out to fix it,
Speaker 1: and um, so that was a totally unexpected, uh, incredible experience,
Speaker 1: you know, getting to go out and do a spacewalk,
Speaker 1: which you know all astronauts would like to go out.
Speaker 1: It's the most intimate experience that you can have of
Speaker 1: being in space, is actually putting on a space suit
Speaker 1: and going out of the airlock and and it's you know,
Speaker 1: kind of you face to face with the rest of
Speaker 1: the universe. It's it's an incredible experience. And we did
Speaker 1: a good job. And and so um I got identified
Speaker 1: as as somebody who was good at space walking, and
Speaker 1: I worked on a lot of advanced spacesuit development and
Speaker 1: various things. And then when it came time to select
Speaker 1: a crew to go up and try to repair the
Speaker 1: Hubble telescope. And of course, nowadays, people who weren't alive
Speaker 1: at the time when Hubble was put in orbit don't
Speaker 1: don't really appreciate what a disaster it was for NASA.
Speaker 1: I mean, this billion and a half dollar telescope which
Speaker 1: had been launched with great expectations about how was going
Speaker 1: to revolutionize our view of the universe, and then to
Speaker 1: find out that it couldn't focus properly. I mean, how
Speaker 1: could NASA make a huge mistake like that? Was what
Speaker 1: everybody was was asking and it was absolutely critical. I mean,
Speaker 1: as I say, people don't remember what a disaster it was.
Speaker 1: But NASA and Hubble were the joke of late night comedians.
Speaker 1: Pubble was denounced in the halls of the U. S.
Speaker 1: Congress as a techno turkey. NASA was trying to get
Speaker 1: Congress to approve funding for the International Space Station at
Speaker 1: the time, and as you can imagine, NASA wasn't very
Speaker 1: popular with Congress, so UM, basically they were told, you know,
Speaker 1: go to something about Hubble and then come back and
Speaker 1: talk to us about the space Station. In any case,
Speaker 1: NASA wanted to do everything possible to reduce the risk
Speaker 1: of failure in this rescue mission, and one of the
Speaker 1: things that they decided was that only people who had
Speaker 1: previously done spacewalks would be eligible to do the spacewalks
Speaker 1: for the Hubble rescue. And and because of this unplanned
Speaker 1: space walk that I did way back on my first flight, UM,
Speaker 1: and I had had two subsequent flights since then, so
Speaker 1: Hubble for me was my fourth flight, and I had
Speaker 1: my spacewalkers Union cards. So I was fortunate enough to
Speaker 1: be on the crew and that was suddenly, of all
Speaker 1: the things I did as an astronaut, the one with
Speaker 1: the most lasting impact was obviously rescuing Hubble and turning
Speaker 1: it from basically nassas worst disaster um scientifically to its
Speaker 1: most successful and productive scientific mission ever. So it was
Speaker 1: a and and of course as a former astronomer, as
Speaker 1: well as being an astronaut, being able to put my
Speaker 1: two hands on the Hubble telescope up in orbit was
Speaker 1: I mean, it was the thrill of a lifetime and
Speaker 1: we fixed it and a great thing you did well.
Speaker 1: I I know that many of my former astronomy colleagues
Speaker 1: after the mission would come I can't tell you how
Speaker 1: many people would come up to me and say, oh, Jeff,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for thinking novel, because you know,
Speaker 1: my my professional career was depending on this, And all
Speaker 1: I could say was, well, it was a pleasure, you know,
Speaker 1: thank you. It was pleasure, It really was. So you
Speaker 1: mentioned that when you were out on spacewalks in in
Speaker 1: the e v A, that you had this kind of
Speaker 1: intimate experience with the universe. It was like putting you
Speaker 1: face to face with the outer universe, and I wonder
Speaker 1: about something. So there was a sci fi novel I
Speaker 1: read a couple of years ago where a character is
Speaker 1: born and lives her whole life in simulated environments inside
Speaker 1: a generation starship, and she finally at one point comes
Speaker 1: back to Earth late in life, and she's outside and
Speaker 1: discussing the idea of getting sun burned. And she's so
Speaker 1: unfamiliar with the concept of Earth and the Sun that
Speaker 1: she calls this. She's horrified, and she calls this getting
Speaker 1: burned by radiation from a star. I wonder, is there
Speaker 1: a moment in space, you know, outside vehicle activity, where
Speaker 1: you begin to think of the Sun not as the
Speaker 1: sun but as a star and other kinds of alienation effects? Now, absolutely,
Speaker 1: I mean this is something when I give public talks,
Speaker 1: I I often show a picture of the sun in space,
Speaker 1: and then I asked the audience, there's something very strange
Speaker 1: about this picture. Can you figure out what it is?
Speaker 1: And most people don't quite get it. But what you're
Speaker 1: seeing is the sun in a black sky. And think
Speaker 1: about it. You've never seen the sun in the black
Speaker 1: sky because every time the weather is clear, you go
Speaker 1: out and of course, our atmosphere scatters the blue light preferentially,
Speaker 1: and so the sky is blue, and so every human
Speaker 1: being throughout human history until the space age, has only
Speaker 1: seen the Sun in the blue sky. We see the
Speaker 1: stars in the black sky because there's not enough really
Speaker 1: from the stars to be scattered and make the sky
Speaker 1: look blue, but not the Sun. But in space, you
Speaker 1: really see the Sun as a star in a black sky.
Speaker 1: Of course, it's it's bigger and brighter than any of
Speaker 1: the other stars because it's close to us. But yeah,
Speaker 1: you really do appreciate the Sun as a star and
Speaker 1: that that that was something I didn't have to go
Speaker 1: out and it just looking out the window of the shuttle.
Speaker 1: You you get that appreciation, but it's a totally different perspective,
Speaker 1: as are so many other things that you see. I mean,
Speaker 1: that's one of the things about being off the surface
Speaker 1: of the Earth is that you look with a totally
Speaker 1: new perspective. Just like most people don't remember the first
Speaker 1: time they ever flew in an aeroplane, But if you
Speaker 1: if you pay attention and look out the window, you
Speaker 1: also get a totally new perspective on the on the Earth.
Speaker 1: Although most people don't bother to look out the window
Speaker 1: these days, but from space, we spent a lot of
Speaker 1: time looking out the windows and I never got fired
Speaker 1: of it. It was a completely um different perspective, not
Speaker 1: only on the Earth, but on on the heavens. It
Speaker 1: was great flying during the nighttime. You know, we'd start,
Speaker 1: we'd enter darkness in the northern hemisphere and you could
Speaker 1: look up and see all the familiar northern constellations, the Signus,
Speaker 1: the Swan, which is the Northern Cross. And then fifteen
Speaker 1: minutes later you'd be in the southern hemisphere and see
Speaker 1: Alpha Centauri and the Southern Cross. And that's something else
Speaker 1: that you never do when you're on the surface of
Speaker 1: the Earth, is to see the northern and the southern
Speaker 1: skies at the you know, within a half hour of
Speaker 1: one another. Would you describe this as as being a
Speaker 1: kin to the the overview effect? Well, the overview effect
Speaker 1: um maybe some of the listeners don't aren't familiar with that,
Speaker 1: but it was coined by Frank White. He's an author
Speaker 1: who thought a lot about I guess he had this
Speaker 1: kind of inspiration during an air airplane flight when he
Speaker 1: was looking at the ground and and feeling a little
Speaker 1: bit removed from the Earth. But then he started thinking about,
Speaker 1: you know, what what must it be like for the astronauts.
Speaker 1: So he came down to Houston and I was one
Speaker 1: of the first astronauts that he interviewed. And you know,
Speaker 1: the idea is it It really does change your perception
Speaker 1: of planet Earth to to look at it, uh and
Speaker 1: and actually see the Earth as a planet um to
Speaker 1: see from an airplane, you can look out the window
Speaker 1: and see entire cities spread out below you. But from
Speaker 1: an orbiting spacecraft you you can see entire countries or continents.
Speaker 1: Really the Earth is very beautiful, and so you you
Speaker 1: do get this relationship that develops between you and the planet.
Speaker 1: At the same time, you can see examples of environmental
Speaker 1: degradation caused by humanity, which is you know, now visible
Speaker 1: from a cosmic perspective, and that's pretty scary, you know,
Speaker 1: the deforestation of the Amazon, the silting up of harbors
Speaker 1: and rivers and uh, just all sorts of things. And
Speaker 1: you realize that you definitely get a feeling of the
Speaker 1: finiteness of planet Earth and this sense of what it
Speaker 1: is to be removed from the Earth and how that
Speaker 1: changes your feelings for Planet Earth. Is what Frank called
Speaker 1: the overview effect, and many astronauts have reported this. There's
Speaker 1: now actually a movie that that you can find on
Speaker 1: on YouTube or vimeo u the about the overview effect,
Speaker 1: made by a cinematographer in in the UK interviews with
Speaker 1: a lot of different astronauts, myself included. So yeah, it's
Speaker 1: um it so totally different perspective you get when you're
Speaker 1: hundreds of miles above the surface of the Earth. So uh,
Speaker 1: going back to the idea of radiation risk beyond the
Speaker 1: surface of the Earth. On the missions you flew in
Speaker 1: the eighties and nineties, what did you and the other
Speaker 1: crew members understand about radiation risk in space and what
Speaker 1: what kind of measures were in place to protect you
Speaker 1: other than just limiting the duration of missions. Shuttle flies
Speaker 1: like the International Space Station and what we call low
Speaker 1: Earth orbits. So we are basically below the Van Allen
Speaker 1: radiation belts, were inside the Earth's magnetic fields, which shields
Speaker 1: us from most h cosmic radiation. So um, it's it's
Speaker 1: a much more benign environment than when you actually left
Speaker 1: the Earth to head out to the Moon and you're
Speaker 1: outside the Earth's magnetic shield and then you're exposed to
Speaker 1: the direct um impact of galactic cosmic rays and U
Speaker 1: and charge particles coming from the sun. UM you ultra
Speaker 1: violet light, of course, is not deflected by the magnetic field,
Speaker 1: and we have to have protection against ultra violet light
Speaker 1: otherwise it would destroy our eyes, which is why the
Speaker 1: space helmet spacesuit helmets have those those gold visors which
Speaker 1: protect you. And there's ultra violet protection on all of
Speaker 1: the windows of the Space Shuttle and the International Space
Speaker 1: Station windows. So UM, you know, electromagnetic radiation, cosmic the
Speaker 1: the ultra violet rays we have to protect ourselves against.
Speaker 1: And then of course there's the infrared radiation from the sun.
Speaker 1: The heat when you're in the direct sunlight, temperatures of
Speaker 1: things exposed to direct sunlight and space can go up
Speaker 1: above the boiling point of water. And so when you're
Speaker 1: out in your space suit, you need good cooling and
Speaker 1: we do that by sublimating ice and that cools off
Speaker 1: the water, which we then circulate in in UH liquid
Speaker 1: cooling garment with lots of tubes where you can run
Speaker 1: the cold water right over your body and take away heat.
Speaker 1: UH and you can adjust that because when you go
Speaker 1: into the dark side, it gets very very cold, and
Speaker 1: there you don't want this extra cooling so um. From
Speaker 1: the electromagnetic point of view, we've got to protect ourselves
Speaker 1: against ultra violet radiation, and we've got to have good
Speaker 1: thermal control for heat for the charge particle radiation. As
Speaker 1: I say, we're in a relatively benign place. When we
Speaker 1: did our Hubble mission. Hubble was put as high up
Speaker 1: as the Shuttle could go, about four hundred miles six uh,
Speaker 1: and we were kind of scraping the bottom of the
Speaker 1: van Ellen intervan Ellen radiation belts. So it was calculated
Speaker 1: that we were going to get about ten times the
Speaker 1: normal exposure for shuttle flight, which which still was nothing
Speaker 1: to be concerned about from a cancer point of view.
Speaker 1: But but they had us where radiation monitors the whole time,
Speaker 1: and particularly when we went outside, and they tried to
Speaker 1: schedule the spacewalks so that we would not be outside
Speaker 1: when we went through what is known as the South
Speaker 1: Atlantic anomaly, which was a part of the orbit where
Speaker 1: the radiation is much higher than the rest of it.
Speaker 1: That's about all you can do, obviously, if there were
Speaker 1: ever a huge solar eruption. UH. We always had the
Speaker 1: option of coming home and and uh, you know, getting
Speaker 1: underneath the atmosphere for the extra protection, but we never
Speaker 1: had to do that. What about extended future missions, how
Speaker 1: did the change and what sort of solutions are being
Speaker 1: developed to protect future astronauts. The radiation risk is recognized
Speaker 1: as being one of the most serious if you're going
Speaker 1: to be outside the Earth's magnetic field for a long time,
Speaker 1: either on the surface of the Moon or on an
Speaker 1: extended trip to Mars. On the surface of the Moon.
Speaker 1: Actually getting to the Moon is is not such a
Speaker 1: big deal because you can get there in three days
Speaker 1: and so your exposure time is limited. But if you're
Speaker 1: gonna spend any significant amount of time on the surface
Speaker 1: of the Moon, obviously the Moon blocks about half of
Speaker 1: the galactic cosmic rays, but but you're still exposed to
Speaker 1: all the rest of them. And it may be that
Speaker 1: you know, will they're they're talking about possibly having underground
Speaker 1: habitats in waba tubes, which we know exists on the Moon.
Speaker 1: You're gonna have to do something to shield yourself from
Speaker 1: the radiation because being exposed to it for a long
Speaker 1: time is going to be dangerous. That's something that very
Speaker 1: difficult to do. If you're on a trip to Mars,
Speaker 1: because you can't carry that much mass with you to
Speaker 1: protect yourself and UM, so NASSE is interested in other ways.
Speaker 1: There are some I think very interesting research going on
Speaker 1: about UM pharmacological protection against radiation. If there were some
Speaker 1: way that we could enhance the body's ability to repair
Speaker 1: d NA UM, that would make the impact of radiation
Speaker 1: much less serious. We know that there's bacterias which can
Speaker 1: withstand hundreds of times the amount of radiation that a
Speaker 1: human can. They've developed the ability to repair much more
Speaker 1: significant damage to DNA than we're able to do. UM.
Speaker 1: There may be genetic clues about how to protect against radiation,
Speaker 1: so the point being that we've got to look for
Speaker 1: other ways besides just shielding, and of course developing better,
Speaker 1: more powerful propulsion systems so that we could get the
Speaker 1: Mars quicker would be a big help as well, not
Speaker 1: just from a radiation point of view, but logistically, you've
Speaker 1: got to carry everything you need UH. You can't get
Speaker 1: resupplied once you're on your way to Mars, so all
Speaker 1: the food, the medical equipment, the UH spare parts and everything.
Speaker 1: They quicker you can get there, the better, So there's
Speaker 1: a lot of ways that that we're looking at that
Speaker 1: will make long duration spaceflight outside the Earth's magnetic field safer.
Speaker 1: But most of these things are still works in progress
Speaker 1: right now. We we don't have those solutions available now,
Speaker 1: and and correct me if I'm wrong, But once you
Speaker 1: get to Mars on a Mars mission on the surface,
Speaker 1: you're not a whole lot better off than you are
Speaker 1: in space right as far as radiation because first of all, Mars,
Speaker 1: just like when you're on the surface of the Moon,
Speaker 1: Mars is blocking half of the radiation just by its mass.
Speaker 1: And then Mars does have a bit of an atmosphere
Speaker 1: which gives you a little bit of protection. But you're right,
Speaker 1: there's still the radiation environment on the surface of the
Speaker 1: Mars of Mars is more severe than being in lower orbit,
Speaker 1: and so radiation protection on the surface of Mars will
Speaker 1: continue to be an issue, just like it will be
Speaker 1: on the Moon. You'll have to have a certain amount
Speaker 1: of protection in your habitats. But again, the other the
Speaker 1: other thing, um, you know, there's two aspects of the
Speaker 1: dangers of radiation. One of them is that in the
Speaker 1: long term it will lead to an increased incident of
Speaker 1: cancers like leukemia. Well, one of the things that we're
Speaker 1: realizing is that our ability for early detection and treatment
Speaker 1: in cancer is continually improving, and so maybe, you know,
Speaker 1: twenty thirty years from now, that's just not going to
Speaker 1: be as much of a problem. The other UH potential
Speaker 1: problem from radiation are acute impacts. There. There have been
Speaker 1: some experiments that have shown a potential loss of cognitive
Speaker 1: capability for rats when they're exposed to radiation. Um, you
Speaker 1: certainly would not like to get to Mars and find
Speaker 1: out that your i Q is decreased by twenty points. UM.
Speaker 1: There are potential effects of acute effects of radiation on
Speaker 1: the circulatory system, on the nervous system, and that's an
Speaker 1: area of very active research now it's relatively new. Traditionally,
Speaker 1: we were just concerned with the long term impact of
Speaker 1: radiation that is ultimately causing cancer, unless, of course, you
Speaker 1: had a huge solar flare. You know, if you get
Speaker 1: enough radiation all at one time, you're going to die
Speaker 1: or have serious UH illnesses, and and um, you know,
Speaker 1: we we would like not to be in space when
Speaker 1: they have a huge solar flare. But you know, statistically
Speaker 1: those don't happen very often and so far we've been lucky.
Speaker 1: So we've discussed the ambient radiation risks in space. Obviously,
Speaker 1: within our solar system, you you've got solar radiation to
Speaker 1: worry about, and you've got charged particles from the from
Speaker 1: the galaxy of the universe to worry about. But also UM,
Speaker 1: apart from these ambient radiation risks, does it make sense
Speaker 1: to also, uh, for space farers to worry about anomalous
Speaker 1: radiation risks UM? I know, for example, like X ray
Speaker 1: bursts and gam rey bursts are extremely rare in the universe.
Speaker 1: Are they so rare that uh that we just don't
Speaker 1: have to think about that? Or will the future of
Speaker 1: space exploration needs don't really think about it? I mean
Speaker 1: if if, uh, if there were a huge black hole
Speaker 1: merger like I was observed with the gravitational radiation, you know,
Speaker 1: billions of light years away, if something like that happened
Speaker 1: right near us in the galaxy, it would be bad news.
Speaker 1: But there's absolutely nothing we can do about it, and
Speaker 1: so it's just not something that that we even bother
Speaker 1: to think about. And what about solar anomalies, I know
Speaker 1: you mentioned like a solar event solar I mean solar
Speaker 1: flairs are recognized. I mean, there was a big solar
Speaker 1: flare in nineteen seventy two in August, which just happened
Speaker 1: to occur between Apollo sixteen and Apollo seventeen. Had it
Speaker 1: occurred when astronauts were on the lunar surface, there's been
Speaker 1: a lot of discussion of whether we've would have been
Speaker 1: fatal or whether it would have just been very bad
Speaker 1: for them. But it would have been a very serious effect.
Speaker 1: But that solar flare in nineteen seventy two was not
Speaker 1: nearly the strongest solar flare that's ever existed. I mean,
Speaker 1: there was the Carryington event back in the mid nineteenth century,
Speaker 1: which was so powerful. Of course, that was we didn't
Speaker 1: have satellites, we didn't have electronics going, but they did
Speaker 1: have telegraph lines, and that solar flare collapsed the Earth's
Speaker 1: magnetic field to the extent that the moving magnetic field
Speaker 1: induced voltages in the telegraph lines, which caused fires in
Speaker 1: telegraph offices. I mean, if if a flare like that
Speaker 1: hit us today, it would cost Lloyds of London did
Speaker 1: an estimate of that. I mean, it would be like
Speaker 1: a trillion dollars worth of damage. All of our satellites
Speaker 1: would be destroyed, Electronic systems all over the world, electrical
Speaker 1: power grids would go down, and there's nothing we can
Speaker 1: do about it except that statistically something like that happens
Speaker 1: maybe once every five hudred years or so. UM. So
Speaker 1: far we've been lucky. Not too much more you can
Speaker 1: say about it. Uh, we are. People are still doing
Speaker 1: research to try to be able to predict solar flares,
Speaker 1: so far without many positive results. But I just read
Speaker 1: recently some new researches indicating that, you know, maybe they've
Speaker 1: made a breakthrough. UM. Being able to predict solar flares
Speaker 1: in advance would be a big help, so that at
Speaker 1: least you could get ready for it, and if you
Speaker 1: had astronauts on the Moon, at least they could try
Speaker 1: to get inside their shielding. But other than that, UM,
Speaker 1: it's statistics, and so far we've been lucky, all right,
Speaker 1: Dr Hoffman. In other interviews, you have stated that shimp
Speaker 1: cocktail was your favorite food in space. Can you explain
Speaker 1: for our listeners why you selected? Sure? You know, when
Speaker 1: when when you take away gravity, there's an upward migration
Speaker 1: of it from your lower body to your upper body,
Speaker 1: and so you get a lot of extra fluid in
Speaker 1: your head. It's a little bit like having sinus congestion,
Speaker 1: and it it decreases your sense of smell, so that, um,
Speaker 1: you you, the food becomes very bland. They provide extra
Speaker 1: Tabasco sauce that we can sort of spice up our food.
Speaker 1: The nice thing about the shrimp cocktailers dehydrated, so the
Speaker 1: shrimp themselves, uh, you know, there's nothing to write home
Speaker 1: about you. You put a little bit of water on
Speaker 1: them and they don't have that much taste, but they
Speaker 1: pack it in a really really hot horse radish sauce.
Speaker 1: So I found if I would eat a shrimp cocktail
Speaker 1: before dinner every night, that horse radish would kind of
Speaker 1: open up my nasal passages so that I could smell
Speaker 1: and taste the rest of the food a little bit more. So.
Speaker 1: That's why it was my favorite food, not because it
Speaker 1: intrinsically taste good. I mean, as a shrimp cocktail, it
Speaker 1: was you know, if they served it to you in
Speaker 1: a restaurant, you'd send it back, But it really opened
Speaker 1: up the nasal passages so that I can enjoy the
Speaker 1: rest of my meal. Well, I guess it's those little
Speaker 1: pleasures that make life forth living. There you go. Well,
Speaker 1: thank you so much. It's been such a privilege to
Speaker 1: talk to you, Dr Hoffman. We really appreciate your sharing
Speaker 1: your time with us. Been a pleasure, and I hope
Speaker 1: it's given maybe a new perspective to some of the
Speaker 1: listeners who haven't heard some of this stuff. So um,
Speaker 1: thanks for your interest and it's been fun. Yeah, thank
Speaker 1: you so much. Thank you. You have a great day, sir.
Speaker 1: All Right, well, thanks once more to Dr Jeff Hoffman
Speaker 1: and to National Geographic for enabling us to have this
Speaker 1: wonderful chat. We're gonna take a quick break and we
Speaker 1: come back. Joe and I will discuss the interview a
Speaker 1: little bit before we close out the episode. All right,
Speaker 1: we're back, So Robert. Dr Hoffman mentioned a few things
Speaker 1: in that interview that I thought were really interesting and
Speaker 1: we might want to follow up and talk about a
Speaker 1: little bit. One of the things you mentioned when we
Speaker 1: were talking about solar anomalies was the idea of the
Speaker 1: Carrington event or the solar storm of eighteen fifty nine,
Speaker 1: And this just stuck in my mind because this is
Speaker 1: one of the most fascinating and I think maybe lesser
Speaker 1: known crazy astronomical events in history. Yeah, and indeed it
Speaker 1: may have been the largest solar energetic particle event in
Speaker 1: the past several hundred years. So why do we call
Speaker 1: it the Carrington event? Well, it's a name for amateur
Speaker 1: astronomer Richard Carrington, who observed quote two patches of intensely
Speaker 1: bright and white light erupting from a cluster of dark
Speaker 1: sun spots. They vanished within five minutes, but then within
Speaker 1: a matter of hours, the effects of this event were
Speaker 1: felt on Earth. So what do those effects look like? Well,
Speaker 1: as a Dr Hoffman uh alluded to, telegraph communication around
Speaker 1: the world began to fail. Sparks were flying from telegraph machine.
Speaker 1: Telegraph operators were in some cases shocked, and then also
Speaker 1: colorful auras in the sky were causing the birds to
Speaker 1: chirp at night. Yeah. So the solar flaring question had
Speaker 1: the power of an estimated ten billion atomic bombs, and
Speaker 1: ice core samples reveal that the Carrington event was twice
Speaker 1: as big as any other solar storm within the last
Speaker 1: five hundred years. This is the kind of thing where
Speaker 1: if it were to hit today, the estimates are just
Speaker 1: in trillions of dollars worth of damage, it would just
Speaker 1: be a massive blow. And Dr Hoffman alluded to this
Speaker 1: as well, the idea that it would have. It would
Speaker 1: impact our satellites, it would impact technology on a scale
Speaker 1: that just simply did not exist in eighteen fifty nine.
Speaker 1: But of course it would also greatly affect any exposed
Speaker 1: astronauts or space farers that you know, we're colonists, or
Speaker 1: wherever outside of the protection of our shield that didn't
Speaker 1: didn't even fully protect us from this event. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: you know. I I actually interviewed a heliophysicist Dr c
Speaker 1: Alex Young several years ago about solar storms, and he
Speaker 1: pointed out that that our mom are an electrical grid
Speaker 1: in particular, is just highly vulnerable to this sort of thing.
Speaker 1: He told me, quote, the power grids that we have
Speaker 1: in the US and actually all over the world are
Speaker 1: interconnected in very fragile If the currents large enough, it
Speaker 1: can short out the largest of the transformers, which can
Speaker 1: knock out the power grid over the scale of a country,
Speaker 1: of a continent, or even across the whole globe. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and uh, for just a minor example of the sort
Speaker 1: of thing, in Canada's hydro Quebec power grid experienced a
Speaker 1: similar shock in nine from a particularly powerful sunstorm, and
Speaker 1: this caused the grid to go down for over nine hours,
Speaker 1: resulting in revenue losses estimated in the hundreds of millions
Speaker 1: of dollars. And that was just the small potatoes compared
Speaker 1: to something like the Carrington event. Yeah, with our earthbound minds,
Speaker 1: it's impossible for us to grasp the real power and
Speaker 1: magnitude of solar events. Like if you've never seen one
Speaker 1: of those pictures of the Earth superimposed to scale against
Speaker 1: a solar prominence, it's it's amazing solar prominence. Are these
Speaker 1: events where this monstrous loop of plasma erupts out of
Speaker 1: the photosphere, which is the apparent surface of the Sun,
Speaker 1: and then it curves through the Sun's corona guided by
Speaker 1: solar magnetic fields. And this is not even really the
Speaker 1: core of the Sun itself, is just an event. It's
Speaker 1: like weather, it's a it's an event on the surface
Speaker 1: of the Sun. But this event itself is tens of
Speaker 1: times bigger than the entire planet Earth. And you see
Speaker 1: one of these pictures. When you look at the vulnerability
Speaker 1: and tininess of human scale projects becomes absurdly apparent. The
Speaker 1: comparison that comes to My mind is if you ever
Speaker 1: been out in nature, as as I know you, you
Speaker 1: like to venture out in the nature on hikes and
Speaker 1: and so forth, you ever observe a bird's nest or
Speaker 1: a wasp nest, some sort of animal structure or nest,
Speaker 1: and you think about yourself, well, that's a horrible place
Speaker 1: to put that, don't you know, tiny bird that eventually
Speaker 1: the wind is gonna blow. Uh, don't you know that
Speaker 1: when it rains, that's that's just not a very protected place.
Speaker 1: Don't you know that's my front porch. And I'm probably
Speaker 1: gonna knock you down eventually, just because you're inconvenient to me.
Speaker 1: And then when you think about everything that that that
Speaker 1: is life on earth, and then everything that humans have built,
Speaker 1: and you think of the vulnerability that is intrinsic in
Speaker 1: all of that. Uh, we're really no different from from
Speaker 1: any wasp that decides to build its nest on the
Speaker 1: bottom of a porch. Swing on a geologic or cosmic
Speaker 1: time scale, our projects are so hilariously short sighted. But
Speaker 1: then again that that's just how we're built, right. I Mean,
Speaker 1: it's very difficult for us to seriously focus on a
Speaker 1: project that we think will take place over say a
Speaker 1: hundred thousand years or even a million years. Yeah, totally.
Speaker 1: We're just we we are short sighted as a species.
Speaker 1: That's what we've evolved to be. Now. On the subject
Speaker 1: of long time scales and and the cosmic scale of events,
Speaker 1: I asked Dr Hoffman about whether a space faring species
Speaker 1: should really worry about things like murray bursts or X
Speaker 1: ray bursts, which I think is kind of a weird
Speaker 1: question because on one hand, it's something that would pose
Speaker 1: a very serious threat, but these things are also incredibly
Speaker 1: rare in the universe, and they're incredibly rare in the galaxy,
Speaker 1: So it's hard to factor into one's idea about something
Speaker 1: like space exploration how much you should worry about something
Speaker 1: that is almost never going to happen anywhere near you,
Speaker 1: but if it did, it would be catastrophic. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: coming to It kind of reminds one of of, of course,
Speaker 1: the the seafaring explorers of old and to say, well,
Speaker 1: if you go out in that boat, you you might
Speaker 1: very well drown, you might run into a hurricane, etcetera.
Speaker 1: And the hurricanes are pretty common. Yeah, those are pretty common,
Speaker 1: and like if it was you would have to say, oh, yeah, well,
Speaker 1: I we've we may very well drown, we may very
Speaker 1: well die die on some distant island, but in the
Speaker 1: chances here are are less. But it's ultimately the same scenario,
Speaker 1: like it's it's of course it's safer to go out
Speaker 1: and explore is certainly in the short term. But are
Speaker 1: we the type of species that is going to do that?
Speaker 1: Of course, then again, if there were a nearby gamma
Speaker 1: ray burst, as unlikely as that is, that would be
Speaker 1: bad even if we were on Earth. Yeah, yeah, so
Speaker 1: these in particular, like so the gamma ray bursts um
Speaker 1: are omitted by powerful supernova that are dubbed hypernova and
Speaker 1: you can think of these is it's just like the
Speaker 1: energy shrapnel from a Titanic exploding star. And uh, you know,
Speaker 1: even though they are rare, the radiation killing zone for
Speaker 1: an exploding hyperstar has been estimated to be around six
Speaker 1: thousand light years across compared to a normal star's thirty
Speaker 1: light year kill zone, and even smaller gamma ray doses
Speaker 1: can have a serious neurological impact on an individual. Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: you don't want gamma rays no matter what. There was
Speaker 1: a Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory study on mice that found
Speaker 1: that gamma radiation targeted a particular type of stem cell
Speaker 1: and the hippocampus, the an area of the brain you
Speaker 1: know believe to be important for learning and mood control,
Speaker 1: and normal doses of space radiation also pose a serious risk.
Speaker 1: In a separate experiment, the NASA Space Radiation Laboratory dosed
Speaker 1: mice with radiation equal to the amount and astronaut might
Speaker 1: receive on a three year voyage to Mars, and scientists
Speaker 1: discovered significant damage to hympocampus stem cells responsible for repopulating
Speaker 1: the brain with new cells. So, without proper radiation shielding,
Speaker 1: lengthy space exploration might be a recipe for the kind
Speaker 1: of like cognitive and emotional breakdown that Dr Hoffman alluded to,
Speaker 1: the idea that you would have your astronauts arrived at
Speaker 1: their destination with reduced cognitive abilities, and that this is
Speaker 1: exactly the time when presumably all the hard work is
Speaker 1: right in front of them. They're gonna have to land
Speaker 1: on the planet and the planetary explorers, but have to
Speaker 1: do so with the reduced with reduced brain power, it's
Speaker 1: a daunting problem. Now. Of course, in all of this discussion,
Speaker 1: we don't want to give the impression of discouraging space
Speaker 1: exploration or anything like. No, no, no, uh, just because
Speaker 1: of all these risks. But in talking about them, it's
Speaker 1: just that we have to recognize how hard this project
Speaker 1: is and how dangerous it is, and how much investment
Speaker 1: of research and technology it's going to take to make
Speaker 1: this something that humans can safely and reasonably do. Yeah. Well,
Speaker 1: we did an episode last year we talked about proposed
Speaker 1: ways of genetically altering UH astronauts of the future so
Speaker 1: that they might be less susceptible to the damages of radiation.
Speaker 1: So there there are multiple fronts on which science, current
Speaker 1: science and future science may be able to to tweak
Speaker 1: all of this in our favor. But it is still,
Speaker 1: as you said, it's a dangerous universe and UH and
Speaker 1: we're ultimately a very fragile species. It is evolved to
Speaker 1: thrive within a very slim portion of our own UH
Speaker 1: atmosphere and within a slim portion of our own terrestrial environment.
Speaker 1: Even a large portion of the Earth will kill you,
Speaker 1: It's true. Yeah, if you were to teleport up to
Speaker 1: the top of Mount Everest, you would not be able
Speaker 1: to breathe, or if you were to suddenly appear at
Speaker 1: the bottom of the ocean and find yourself of surrounded
Speaker 1: by what three thousand atmosphere is worth of pressure, or
Speaker 1: the north or South pole, or in the middle of
Speaker 1: a desert. There's just a lot of bad places to be.
Speaker 1: But I don't mean to trash the Earth, of course.
Speaker 1: I mean this takes us back to the idea of
Speaker 1: the overview effect that we mentioned a little bit with
Speaker 1: Mr Hoffman, that having a cosmic perspective on the Earth,
Speaker 1: realizing the ultimate kind of emptiness and violence and hostility
Speaker 1: of the universe at large, and the the incredible uniqueness
Speaker 1: and privilege of this one little rock floating in space,
Speaker 1: it really should give us a perspective of thankfulness and transcendence. Uh,
Speaker 1: something that makes the petty human squabbles kind of fade
Speaker 1: away into non importance. All right, today you have it.
Speaker 1: I hope everyone enjoyed our chat with Dr Hoffman. We
Speaker 1: certainly enjoyed chatting with him. Absolutely. It was a pleasure
Speaker 1: and I don't know, he gave me a lot of
Speaker 1: stuff to think about. Yeah, this is the first time
Speaker 1: we've had an actual space traveler on the show. Uh,
Speaker 1: and it did it did not disappoint Maybe it won't
Speaker 1: be the last time. Yeah, who knows. Now, if there's
Speaker 1: anything in our discussion with Dr Hoffman that really leapt
Speaker 1: out at you and you would like to hear a
Speaker 1: whole episode of Stuff to Blow Your Mind on, let
Speaker 1: us know about that, because because he covered a lot
Speaker 1: of ground in the interview totally. Don't be shy to
Speaker 1: get in touch with us and let us know what
Speaker 1: you would like us to pick up on from that
Speaker 1: conversation in the future, right, And you can do that
Speaker 1: at our various social media accounts. We're on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram. Oh,
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Speaker 1: out to our social media accounts, as well as all
Speaker 1: the podcast episodes, some blog posts, etcetera. And hey, check
Speaker 1: out One Strange Rock. It's a really beautiful show. It
Speaker 1: definitely like HD home viewing experience. Big thanks as always
Speaker 1: to our excellent audio producers Alex Williams and Tarry Harrison.
Speaker 1: And if you want to get in touch with us
Speaker 1: directly by email, you can do so as always at
Speaker 1: Blow the Mind at how Stuff Works dot com. For
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