Speaker 1: On the Bechdel Cast.
Speaker 2: The questions asked if movies have women and them, are
Speaker 2: all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands, or do they
Speaker 2: have individualism?
Speaker 1: It's a patriarchy. Zeph and Vest start changing with the
Speaker 1: Bechdel Cast.
Speaker 3: Hey, Jamie, Hey Caitlin, how many layers of Indian do
Speaker 3: you think we have between us?
Speaker 2: What's a polite answer.
Speaker 3: I think it's eight thousand or more.
Speaker 2: Ooh, okay, let's go for it. Yes, we are connected
Speaker 2: in unprecedented way.
Speaker 3: We're basically married, so we are spiritually married. It's true.
Speaker 2: That is actually I do think that that is true.
Speaker 3: I think so.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that is true.
Speaker 2: There is nothing stronger than the bond between two podcasters.
Speaker 3: We know so much about each other.
Speaker 2: It's true. It's true.
Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bechdel Cast.
Speaker 3: My name is Jamie Loftus, my name is Caitlin Toronte,
Speaker 3: and this is our show where we examine movies through
Speaker 3: an intersection feminist lens, using the Bechdel Test simply as
Speaker 3: a jumping off point to initiate much larger conversations. But
Speaker 3: what is the Bechdel test, Jamie?
Speaker 2: Well, it is a media metric created by queer cartoonist
Speaker 2: Alison Bechdel often called the Bechdel Wallace test because it
Speaker 2: was co created with her friend Liz Wallace. There's a
Speaker 2: lot of different versions of this test. It was originally
Speaker 2: just made as a one off kind of gag in
Speaker 2: her Wonderful Comics collection Dikes to Watch out For, and
Speaker 2: it's sort of evolved over the years. The version of
Speaker 2: the test that we use require that two characters of
Speaker 2: a marginalized gender with names speak to each other about
Speaker 2: something other than a man for more than two lines
Speaker 2: of dialogue, and they should be meaningful lines of dialogue,
Speaker 2: no how would you like your burger cooked? Type of
Speaker 2: random interaction. We don't let movies get away with a
Speaker 2: barely pass, and also we kind of barely talk about
Speaker 2: it because it's just a jumping off point for discussion.
Speaker 2: There's so many things to talk about with movies, but
Speaker 2: for a long time and still often this bare minimum
Speaker 2: never takes place.
Speaker 3: So it is true and there is a lot to
Speaker 3: talk about. In today's movie, which is Past Lives that
Speaker 3: came out last year.
Speaker 2: I feel like every single person who listened to this
Speaker 2: show requested this movie. Yeah, it's been out for I
Speaker 2: think it's been out for over a year now, but
Speaker 2: it felt like throughout last year, as it became more
Speaker 2: available and theater is more available on streaming, that people
Speaker 2: were discovering it. And yeah, I'm so excited. The day
Speaker 2: has come. It's Past Lives Day on the Bechdel Cast.
Speaker 3: It sure is, and we have a wonderful guest here
Speaker 3: with us to chat about it. She is a sociologist
Speaker 3: and author of Real Inequality, Hollywood Actors and Racism. It's
Speaker 3: Nancy wong Yun.
Speaker 1: Hello, Hi, so it gets you here.
Speaker 3: Thanks for joining us.
Speaker 2: Welcome, And just because this is an audio medium, it's
Speaker 2: want to shout out Nancy's everything everywhere, all at once.
Speaker 2: Post that is behind her just an important addition to
Speaker 2: every home.
Speaker 3: Exactly.
Speaker 1: Is that a show that you've talked about on your podcast?
Speaker 3: Not yet, we haven't covered it yet.
Speaker 2: There's a few movies that we're sort of like, we're
Speaker 2: gonna make the listeners wait and wait and wait and
Speaker 2: then surprise them one day.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: This movie, however, we got so many requests that were like,
Speaker 2: we cannot play the long game with Past Lives. So
Speaker 2: to start, we're curious. I know it's a fairly recent movie,
Speaker 2: but what is your history with this movie?
Speaker 1: You know, I was attending Sundance virtually the year that
Speaker 1: it screened in Sundance, I think, I think, actually maybe
Speaker 1: it was supposed to do it over the pandemic, and
Speaker 1: there was delays, and it finally screened in Utah and Sundance,
Speaker 1: but because I was only joining on line virtually, I
Speaker 1: couldn't see it, and it built up all this anticipation
Speaker 1: for myself. I was like, Oh my gosh, that's like
Speaker 1: the one movie I really want to see. But they
Speaker 1: were you know, sometimes they just do in person screenings
Speaker 1: and they don't allow for online viewing for journalists and
Speaker 1: general audience. And so that was the year that it
Speaker 1: came out. But A twenty four had contacted me with
Speaker 1: an early press screening I think soon after it premiered
Speaker 1: at Sundance, and so I drove all the way out
Speaker 1: to La I'm in the suburbs, and I was just
Speaker 1: sitting in a screening room. There were only maybe four
Speaker 1: or five other journalists, but it was a very small
Speaker 1: screening room, and I remember watching it and being emotionally
Speaker 1: drained and excited and just something that I had never
Speaker 1: seen that I would expect to kind of reflect my
Speaker 1: own experience and enlighten my own experience and speak to it.
Speaker 1: So I was, yeah, I was really I had a
Speaker 1: deep connection with the film since the first time I
Speaker 1: saw it, and.
Speaker 3: Then you spoke to Selene's song and wrote a piece
Speaker 3: about it, which is how we Yes do.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So I then pitched an interview with Elle, and
Speaker 1: you know, pitched my idea because after I saw the film,
Speaker 1: I thought that it was a film about immigration for sure,
Speaker 1: but that the entire metaphor of the relationship had to
Speaker 1: do with kind of immigrant lives, and so that was
Speaker 1: how I pitched it. And I ended up talking to
Speaker 1: Selene very long about it. And it's so funny because
Speaker 1: she and I talked about are In Young, just like
Speaker 1: you all talked about yours, and she really really believes
Speaker 1: in it, and I felt like I was so also
Speaker 1: enlightened about ying Young through Selene and her saying that
Speaker 1: she and I had Eyan Young too, because I actually
Speaker 1: saw her on before I interviewed her. I saw her
Speaker 1: very very briefly at this thing called the Gold Gala.
Speaker 1: She was It was an Asian American and kind of
Speaker 1: award show, and she was walking the Gold carpet, and
Speaker 1: I like flagged her down. I said, oh, Selene, I'm
Speaker 1: going to be interviewing you suit oh for all and
Speaker 1: thinking about, I guess, all the moments where we happen
Speaker 1: to meet up with one another, right, all the different
Speaker 1: potential and unrealized and realized connections. All of that is
Speaker 1: to think about as part of kind of a larger
Speaker 1: I don't know, fabric of some sort. It was very
Speaker 1: beautiful to think about.
Speaker 2: That's really beautiful.
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, I love it. Well, Jamie, what is
Speaker 3: your relationship with this movie?
Speaker 2: I have a kind of funny relationship with this movie.
Speaker 2: I mean it's Selene Song's debut film. I wasn't familiar
Speaker 2: with her work prior to this, but I was really
Speaker 2: excited to see as a longtime Greta Lee fan. Who
Speaker 2: is I mean, it's so funny because I primarily thought
Speaker 2: of her as a comic actress because she's done so
Speaker 2: many great TV roles over the years. I always think
Speaker 2: of how great she was in Russian Doll. But I mean,
Speaker 2: she's been in so much over the years, and like
Speaker 2: rarely gets to properly lead. So I was very excited
Speaker 2: to see her and I was going to see it
Speaker 2: when it first came into theaters, and I texted my
Speaker 2: brother like, I'm going to go see Past Lives and
Speaker 2: he had just seen it and he knew I was
Speaker 2: going through a gnarly breakup and he literally texted me, Jamie,
Speaker 2: I don't think you're in a good emotional place to
Speaker 2: see Past Lives right now. I remember this, Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: And I was like, Wow, my brother has never said
Speaker 2: anything remotely like that to me. I guess I'll listen.
Speaker 2: And so I didn't see it until a couple of
Speaker 2: months ago when I checked in with him and he
Speaker 2: said he thought I, in fact was now in a
Speaker 2: good enough emotional place to see Past Lives, and I
Speaker 2: think he was right. But yeah, I mean, I loved
Speaker 2: this movie. I loved this movie. It will get into it,
Speaker 2: but it's so beautiful and I feel like it's really
Speaker 2: rare to find a movie that is both extremely specific
Speaker 2: but any viewer can feel their own lived experience through it.
Speaker 2: And just like these ships passing in the night, types
Speaker 2: of relationships are so heart wrenching and rare to see
Speaker 2: done thoughtfully on screen. And I just think this movie
Speaker 2: is so beautiful and I'm excited to talk about it, Caitlin,
Speaker 2: what's your history with Past Lives?
Speaker 3: I saw it in theaters and I really enjoyed it,
Speaker 3: and I really appreciate it when we're doing an episode
Speaker 3: on a movie that there's like nothing bad to say
Speaker 3: about the movie, because most of our job is wow,
Speaker 3: everything was so problematic or the things that were interesting
Speaker 3: and subversive are sort of overshadowed by all of the
Speaker 3: other problematic things that are happening, And this movie is
Speaker 3: just like pure wonderfulness, you know. And I appreciate movies
Speaker 3: like that, episodes like this because it's a brother of
Speaker 3: fresh air. But yeah, so I'm also excited to talk
Speaker 3: about it. And should we just get into the recap
Speaker 3: and go from there.
Speaker 2: Let's do it.
Speaker 3: Let's take a quick break first, and then we'll come
Speaker 3: back for the recap and we're back. Okay, So here
Speaker 3: is Past Lives. We open on three people who are
Speaker 3: having a drink at a bar. It's an Asian man,
Speaker 3: an Asian woman, and a white man, and we hear
Speaker 3: nearby people speculating on what these three people's dynamic must be.
Speaker 3: They're like, oh, are two of them in a relationship?
Speaker 3: Are any of them related to each other? Are they
Speaker 3: just colleagues? Well, we're about to find out.
Speaker 1: Can I say something. I actually was just in Boston
Speaker 1: and I went to a restaurant and I could only
Speaker 1: be seated at the bar, and I literally saw three
Speaker 1: people that look like the three people the way. I
Speaker 1: even snapped a photo, but then I was like, I
Speaker 1: felt uncomfortable posting it because you know, I didn't do
Speaker 1: it like with their consent. The Asian woman even has
Speaker 1: short hairs, just like Greta Ellie's character and Nora, and
Speaker 1: I just I just thought, what are the chances that
Speaker 1: maybe there are a lot of people that you know
Speaker 1: the kind of you know, three people and you don't
Speaker 1: know what their relationships are to each other. But this
Speaker 1: literally happened, I think two days ago, and I thought,
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, I'm gotta be talking about past lives
Speaker 1: and I can't believe I'm seeing potentially a real life
Speaker 1: past lives moment in front of me.
Speaker 2: Cilian song opened our third eye. This dynamic is everywhere.
Speaker 1: Exactly the thing that you don't notice, and all of
Speaker 1: a sudden, it's everywhere. Yes, that is the Asian woman
Speaker 1: with the Asian man and a white man. Who what
Speaker 1: happens all over the country, but this is uh it
Speaker 1: was cool to witness in real life.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I wonder what their dynamic was, but no idea.
Speaker 1: I didn't. I didn't feel comfortable enough to get like, hey,
Speaker 1: you'll remind you pass lies your ex from your home country.
Speaker 1: That would have been terrible. The woman would be like,
Speaker 1: are you racist? What are you doing now? I'm just
Speaker 1: a huge past life fad.
Speaker 3: That's hilarious. Okay, So we see them in the present day,
Speaker 3: but then we cut to twenty four years earlier. We
Speaker 3: are in Seoul, Korea, and we meet two twelve year
Speaker 3: old kids, Now Young and her friend hey Sung, and
Speaker 3: they are friends and classmates. Hey Sung always walks home
Speaker 3: with now Young after school. Niong is upset because she's
Speaker 3: used to getting like the top grades in her class,
Speaker 3: but hay Sung has outperformed her today, so she's crying
Speaker 3: about it and he's trying to comfort her. Very sweet
Speaker 3: interaction between kids, and then Niong arrives home. Her family
Speaker 3: is gearing up to immigrate to Canada. I think Toronto
Speaker 3: is where they're going, and she and her younger sister
Speaker 3: are picking out English names. Niong goes with Nora. Her
Speaker 3: little sister goes with Michelle, and then Niong tells her
Speaker 3: mom about Hey Sung how she'll probably marry him someday,
Speaker 3: and her mom asks if she wants to go on
Speaker 3: a date with him, So her mom takes the two
Speaker 3: of them to the park for a little kid date.
Speaker 3: Haysong's mom is also there. Naiong's mom wants to make
Speaker 3: good memories for her before the family leaves for Canada,
Speaker 3: so that's why they're kind of chaperone this date. And
Speaker 3: they have a nice time on the date. They even
Speaker 3: hold hands.
Speaker 2: It's so cute.
Speaker 3: It's adorable.
Speaker 1: And the two moms have a conversation too.
Speaker 3: Yes, Heysong's mom is asking why they're immigrating, especially because
Speaker 3: Niong's mother is an artist and her father is a
Speaker 3: film director, and she's like, why would you leave all
Speaker 3: that behind? And I think she responds with, well, when
Speaker 3: you leave something behind, you also gain something.
Speaker 1: So I love that. That's really deep. It's such a
Speaker 1: deep kind of immigration or just you know, life kind of.
Speaker 1: It's such a simple conversation, but I remember feeling the
Speaker 1: ways of that. I want to write. I want to
Speaker 1: write that down and think about that some more.
Speaker 3: M hmm totally. And then Haysong finds out that Nyong
Speaker 3: will be leaving soon and he's sad and we're sad.
Speaker 3: And then Nay Young and her mom, dad, and sister
Speaker 3: moved to Canada. We see her briefly at school. She
Speaker 3: seems to be feeling out of place, and then we
Speaker 3: cut to twelve years later. So now it's twenty twelve. Nyong,
Speaker 3: who goes by Nora now, is living in New York City.
Speaker 3: Ever heard of it. She's played by Greta Lee, and
Speaker 3: she's chatting on the phone with her mom and they're
Speaker 3: joking around and like looking up people that they used
Speaker 3: to know on Facebook, and Nora is like, well, what
Speaker 3: about that boy? I had a huge crush on hey song,
Speaker 3: And so she looks him up and she sees a
Speaker 3: post of his on Facebook from a few months prior
Speaker 3: where he's like asking about her and looking for her.
Speaker 3: So Norah messages him on Facebook being like, Hi, it's me.
Speaker 4: God.
Speaker 2: That's already such wish fulfillment to be like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 2: you're crush from when you're twelve, they're looking for you,
Speaker 2: they still love you, right sequences. I mean, they're beautiful narratively,
Speaker 2: but I also is just like wow, Selene's song nailed
Speaker 2: like there were a few twenty twelve details that were
Speaker 2: kind of triggering. The like sound of a Skype call,
Speaker 2: You're like, uh, like, I haven't. It's been eighty four
Speaker 2: years since I've heard the sound of a Skype call,
Speaker 2: or like the Facebook messenger interface. You're like, god, this
Speaker 2: is like, this is where I made so many mistakes
Speaker 2: on this exact interface.
Speaker 3: Wi It has been eighty four years and I can
Speaker 3: still see the grainy video quality. So Hey song now
Speaker 3: played by Tayo. You gets the message from Nora and
Speaker 3: he's all excited, and then they start corresponding back and forth.
Speaker 3: They do a Skype call and he's like, I've been
Speaker 3: trying really hard to find you, and he was having
Speaker 3: trouble finding her because she had changed her name to
Speaker 3: Nora and catch up. She tells him that she's a playwright.
Speaker 3: He is in school studying engineering, and then he gets
Speaker 3: very kind of Erna tells her that he has missed her,
Speaker 3: and she's like me too, who And they continue meeting
Speaker 3: up pretty regularly over Skype, and she tells him about
Speaker 3: this upcoming month long artist residency that she will be
Speaker 3: doing on Long Island, I think. And he says, oh, well,
Speaker 3: I'm going to China soon to learn Mandarin. And she's like, oh,
Speaker 3: you should come to New York and learn English. And
Speaker 3: he says that he may be able to come visit,
Speaker 3: but it would probably be like a year and a
Speaker 3: half from then, and she's like, well, it probably won't
Speaker 3: be a year at least until I would be able
Speaker 3: to come back to Seoul to visit. And so she
Speaker 3: decides that she wants them to stop talking for a
Speaker 3: while because she wants to commit to her life in
Speaker 3: New York and accomplished something there, and she feels as
Speaker 3: though her like considering this visit to Korea to see
Speaker 3: him is sort of like distracting her from her goals.
Speaker 2: That is the point in the Vivia is like, Okay,
Speaker 2: she is stronger than me.
Speaker 1: She is stronger than me.
Speaker 2: I would be like, let's do long distance forever.
Speaker 1: Why not?
Speaker 2: What's the worst that could happen? And I was like, wow,
Speaker 2: good healthy boundaries. Love to see it.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think there were a lot of like technical difficulties
Speaker 1: where they're missing each other because of the time difference,
Speaker 1: and you know, tech drops and you know, someone's sleeping,
Speaker 1: someone's hill calling in. I think it's like the kind
Speaker 1: of typical long distance and also across time zones issues.
Speaker 3: For sure, And so you know, Nora communicates this boundary
Speaker 3: to him and he understands, but he's really sad about
Speaker 3: it and they say goodbye. Then nor heads to that
Speaker 3: artist residency retreat and it's at this house where she
Speaker 3: meets Arthur, another writer played by John Macgaro.
Speaker 2: Yes, the future author of Boner Boner.
Speaker 1: Oh, I think I missed that.
Speaker 2: Oh his book is named Boner, which I is one
Speaker 2: of my favorite details in the movie.
Speaker 3: So funny. Is it nonfiction? Is it fiction? I don't
Speaker 3: really care. I love that his book is named Boner.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I have no beef with Arthur, but I just think
Speaker 2: that that is the funniest Like Brett Easton ellis vibe ripoff,
Speaker 2: like white guy novel, Like it's called Boner.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Oh I love that detail.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, I think I paid no attention to him
Speaker 1: at all. I was like, could you just maybe go
Speaker 1: away so that two people that deserve to be with
Speaker 1: each other are together.
Speaker 2: Like he just speaks to my level of maturity, where
Speaker 2: if the word boner's on screen, my eye is go
Speaker 2: and drift there and alaser focus. Yeah, I was like,
Speaker 2: oh there.
Speaker 1: Seriously, I saw I think I've seen the movie at
Speaker 1: least three times, and I never saw that.
Speaker 3: You see it In that scene where they're at a bookstore,
Speaker 3: I think he's doing a book signing, and so there's
Speaker 3: stacks of his book and I forget what's on the cover.
Speaker 1: What's on the cover? Did I even miss that? It's
Speaker 1: just words, right, it's just words.
Speaker 3: It says Boner. And then there's a photo that I
Speaker 3: think has nothing to do with boner, but the title
Speaker 3: is very visible.
Speaker 2: Also, just another shout out to Celine Song's restraint at
Speaker 2: having that be the title and having no one pointed
Speaker 2: out I would not be able to shut up if
Speaker 2: my weird husband wrote a book called Boner. But it's
Speaker 2: not what the movie's about.
Speaker 3: No, But where's the sequel in which that is all
Speaker 3: they talk about?
Speaker 2: Where's this to screen adaptation of what if? That's Selene
Speaker 2: Song's next project? The adaptation of Bone of bon kidding,
Speaker 2: just kidding, watch just enough of Arthur in this movie.
Speaker 2: But that was just like a great detail.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I agree.
Speaker 1: Oh and we never mentioned that all of this is
Speaker 1: based on her real life, right, it's loosely based on
Speaker 1: selling songs real life.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yes, she also met I think her husband at an
Speaker 1: artist thing and he is a writer, and she did
Speaker 1: have a childhood love and the whole bar scene actually
Speaker 1: happened in her real life. That is when it was
Speaker 1: like during the bar scene that you start thinking about, Oh,
Speaker 1: I wonder what people think of us, and I'm going
Speaker 1: to make this into it.
Speaker 3: This is a movie. Yeah, yeah, I love that. Okay.
Speaker 3: So Nora and Arthur meet and they get to chatting.
Speaker 3: They hit it off. She tells him about a word
Speaker 3: in Korean in young which which means providence or fate,
Speaker 3: but it specifically refers to relationships between people. For example,
Speaker 3: it's in Yuan. If two strangers pass on the street
Speaker 3: and their clothes accidentally brush, it means there must have
Speaker 3: been something between them in their past lives that's the
Speaker 3: name of the movie. Or if, for example, two people
Speaker 3: get married, it's said that there must have been eight
Speaker 3: thousand layers of in Yuan over the course of like
Speaker 3: eight thousand lifetimes. And then Nora is like, TIHI, I
Speaker 3: don't really believe in this. It's just something Koreans say
Speaker 3: to seduce someone and then he's like oh, and then
Speaker 3: they smooch. Meanwhile, Hayesan heads to China for this language
Speaker 3: exchange program, but he's not smooching anyone.
Speaker 1: He's sitting next to someone. He's sitting next to someone eating. Yes,
Speaker 1: there's a luck.
Speaker 3: Yes they're eyeing each other.
Speaker 1: Yeah, probably maybe you know more culturally, it's not like
Speaker 1: you smooch someone on the first Well, I'm not going
Speaker 1: to smooch on the first night. But I guess the
Speaker 1: artists colony is different than meeting a restaurant.
Speaker 3: True. People are so horny during artists residencies, so it seems.
Speaker 1: To be true.
Speaker 2: I know it feels like adult summer cap kind of right.
Speaker 3: I think that's why people go on them. They're like, sure,
Speaker 3: i'll write a little bit, but I'm here to fuck.
Speaker 2: I wrote forty words and I fucked everyone, and you're like.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 3: So then we cut to another twelve years later, so
Speaker 3: we are now in present day. Nora and Arthur are married.
Speaker 3: They still live in New York City. Nourra is an
Speaker 3: accomplished playwright, and Arthur has a book published called Boner.
Speaker 3: And then we learn that Haisung is coming to New
Speaker 3: York to be there on vacation, and he wants to
Speaker 3: link up with Nora, although he does know that Nora
Speaker 3: is married, so it's not like that will be a
Speaker 3: surprise to him. And so he arrives in New York
Speaker 3: and he and Nora meet up. They have a tender reunion.
Speaker 3: They walk around the city and catch up.
Speaker 2: My god, it's so good, it's so beautiful, Like the
Speaker 2: second they see each other, I'm crying for the rest
Speaker 2: of the movie.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but there isn't anything cheesy in terms of like
Speaker 1: it's not like, you know, all of a sudden they
Speaker 1: embrace and they go into a passionate kiss. Now because
Speaker 1: she is married, she's happily married, and yet there is
Speaker 1: this tension that is so visceral just by them looking
Speaker 1: at each other, speaking in and laughing and giggling and
Speaker 1: small little touches and oh it's it's it's better, right.
Speaker 1: It's like it's like how ca dramas are in terms of,
Speaker 1: you know, more of a slow burn, very slow burn.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, just the casting in this movie is
Speaker 2: off the chart, like and just how subtle the performances are,
Speaker 2: because it like there is this base part of me
Speaker 2: that is like kiss but it's like but they're really
Speaker 2: it's just like so well done. And again, like Selene
Speaker 2: Song has incredible like restraint and like how she paces
Speaker 2: these sequences.
Speaker 3: It's so beautiful. There's a scene where they're sitting in
Speaker 3: front of like a Merry go Round kind of thing,
Speaker 3: and yeah, she's talking and he's like staring very intently
Speaker 3: at her, and I'm so conditioned from watching movies that
Speaker 3: I thought he was gonna kind of like lunge at
Speaker 3: her and kiss her during like a lull in their conversation,
Speaker 3: because like we've seen something like that so many times
Speaker 3: and it never happens. And that's not the type of
Speaker 3: thing that would happen in this movie, because this movie
Speaker 3: doesn't like adhere to any of those Hollywood tropy sappy,
Speaker 3: corny moments like.
Speaker 1: That and problematic moments exactly.
Speaker 2: Y yeah, yeah, God, it's like, yeah, that's like what
Speaker 2: we've been talking about every week for eight years, is
Speaker 2: like the conditioning to surprise kiss someone and there's no
Speaker 2: consent and there's you know, it's all of this you know, patriarchal.
Speaker 3: Wish fulfillment for sure.
Speaker 2: And I mean I think That's probably part of why
Speaker 2: I wasn't emotionally prepared to see it at the time,
Speaker 2: is because it feels so authentic for sure.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because even at one point Nora's husband says, gosh,
Speaker 1: I'm the white husband like third wheel here. It's something
Speaker 1: like that, right where he actually exactly names the thing
Speaker 1: that we're all all the audiences thinking, yeah, and he
Speaker 1: actually says it rather than I think embody some sort
Speaker 1: of toxic masculinity where he starts to be suspicious of
Speaker 1: her or questioning or whatever that we're used to in
Speaker 1: terms of Hollywood troms.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, I'm really excited to talk about like the
Speaker 3: men's reactions to things because it's I think very interesting.
Speaker 3: But in any case, so Nora and Hayesan are catching up.
Speaker 3: He tells her about his girlfriend, who he is not
Speaker 3: currently with because he feels as though he should make
Speaker 3: more money and be less ordinary before like it's appropriate
Speaker 3: for them to get married. And Norah asks him why
Speaker 3: he was looking for her all those years ago, and
Speaker 3: he's like, well, you disappeared so suddenly from my life,
Speaker 3: and he was upset about it, and he clearly like
Speaker 3: didn't get any closure from it, and so then Nora
Speaker 3: returns home to Arthur and she's like, you were right,
Speaker 3: he did come here to see me, and she goes
Speaker 3: on to say that he has very like Korean views
Speaker 3: and lives a very Korean lifestyle, and that when she's
Speaker 3: with him, she somehow feels both less and more Korean,
Speaker 3: which is something I'm interested in talking about further. And
Speaker 3: then they also talk about their relationship, Nora and Arthur's relationship,
Speaker 3: and you know, whether or not she's happy with the
Speaker 3: life they've built together. And this is when Arthur's kind
Speaker 3: of joking about a fictional version of this story where
Speaker 3: you know, two childhood lovers reunite and run away together
Speaker 3: after all these years and there's an evil white American
Speaker 3: husband who's trying to stop them and all this stuff.
Speaker 3: And Norah's like, that's not going to happen. I've built
Speaker 3: my life here with you and I love you. And
Speaker 3: he's like, okay, tight, tight, tight, And.
Speaker 1: She also says, I'm not going to give up my play,
Speaker 1: you know, rehearsal, Yeah, which I love because it's not like, oh,
Speaker 1: I'm either with you or with him. No, it's I
Speaker 1: have my own career and you know, I'm not giving
Speaker 1: that up. That was actually I think the most important
Speaker 1: point that she made.
Speaker 3: Yeah, she says something like I'm not gonna miss my
Speaker 3: rehearsals for some dude, preferring to as like, you know,
Speaker 3: long lost child love of hers as some dude, which
Speaker 3: is pretty funny.
Speaker 2: Well, I also like that Arthur is trying to play
Speaker 2: off being insecure, but like he is so insecure that
Speaker 2: he's not the key about her career and she has
Speaker 2: to be like, well, hold on, you know, like love
Speaker 2: you and everything, but like you're just saying, Nancy, like
Speaker 2: you are not the only reason that my life is
Speaker 2: here now, Like I've busted my ass to have my
Speaker 2: life be here for a lot of reasons.
Speaker 3: Yep. Okay. So the next day, Nora and he Sung
Speaker 3: meet up again and it's his last day in New
Speaker 3: York before he heads back to Soul and he meets
Speaker 3: Arthur too. They go out for pasta and for drinks,
Speaker 3: and then we reach that scene that's the opening scene
Speaker 3: of the movie, where the three of them are together
Speaker 3: and people are, you know, trying to guess their dynamic,
Speaker 3: and the conversation is a little awkward because of this
Speaker 3: language barrier between Haysung and Arthur, Nora is having to
Speaker 3: translate quite a bit, and then Haysung gets serious for
Speaker 3: a moment and he tells Nora that seeing how much
Speaker 3: she loves her husband, he didn't realize how much that
Speaker 3: would hurt him. He also says he's having all these
Speaker 3: thoughts of, oh, what if I did come to see
Speaker 3: you twelve years ago in New York, or what if
Speaker 3: you had never left Soul when you were a kid.
Speaker 3: But they both acknowledge that what was supposed to happen happened,
Speaker 3: though Nora does wonder if there was something in their
Speaker 3: past lives that brought them back together in Yuan, of course,
Speaker 3: and they talk about how in Yuan brought Nora and
Speaker 3: Arthur together and how there's even in Yon between Arthur
Speaker 3: and Haysong.
Speaker 1: I love that.
Speaker 2: M hm.
Speaker 1: That was like my favorite, right that it's always I
Speaker 1: think the love triangle is always represented so one dimensionally,
Speaker 1: and here there is a connection, right, there is a
Speaker 1: connection even between the two men.
Speaker 3: Definitely. Yeah, what we're used to seeing is the not
Speaker 3: to be bringing up Titanic again, but the Billy Zane
Speaker 3: Leonardo DiCaprio of it all where they're both hero villain. Yeah,
Speaker 3: so yeah, this was far more nuanced.
Speaker 2: No one punching anybody here, No, no punching, no shooting,
Speaker 2: no shipwreck, no.
Speaker 1: But heartache, a lot of heartache, heartache. And I think
Speaker 1: someone says that, you know, I didn't even hurt him
Speaker 1: to even like Arthur, right that it's kind of like
Speaker 1: because it's like, you want, you want the idea that oh,
Speaker 1: she's married to with some terrible person, I'm gonna be
Speaker 1: able to whisker her away, but instead, no, she's happy
Speaker 1: with a really good guy. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And just the fact that Cilian Song clearly has
Speaker 2: so much love for all three of these characters and
Speaker 2: it takes the time to explore how they all feel
Speaker 2: about each other. It's just it's so.
Speaker 3: Rare, totally okay. So, as they're parting ways, Nora waits
Speaker 3: with his song as he's waiting for his uber, and
Speaker 3: they stare intently at each other, and then he says,
Speaker 3: what if this is a past life two and we're
Speaker 3: already something else to each other in our next life
Speaker 3: And she's like, yeah, maybe, and he's like, well, see
Speaker 3: you then, and then he gets in his uber and leaves,
Speaker 3: and then Norah walks the few steps back home and
Speaker 3: she's crying, and Arthur is there and he embraces her,
Speaker 3: and we're crying. Everyone's crying. It's very emotional. And that's
Speaker 3: the end of the movie. So let's take another quick
Speaker 3: break and we will come back to discuss and we're back.
Speaker 2: Nancy. I want to start with talking with you about
Speaker 2: your connection to this movie and also just the process
Speaker 2: of writing this beautiful piece.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So when I saw the movie that first time
Speaker 1: I had during the pandemic thought about going back to Taiwan,
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, there's all this anti Asian hate.
Speaker 1: I'm you know, I didn't even choose to come here.
Speaker 1: I was like, like Nora's character, you know, came as
Speaker 1: a child. Although when I talked to Selene, she did
Speaker 1: feel like she had a choice, right. I came when
Speaker 1: I was younger, and I felt like, you know, my
Speaker 1: parents just brought me. It was not my choice. I
Speaker 1: left behind a lot of loved ones. No childhood, sweetheart,
Speaker 1: but my grandparents who raised me, who were basically the
Speaker 1: only people that I really loved because I didn't actually
Speaker 1: know my parents. So slightly different immigration story than the movie,
Speaker 1: but still a feeling of kind of longing for a
Speaker 1: place that I had left. And at one point, I
Speaker 1: think the first time she comes back from meeting Haysan's,
Speaker 1: she says to Arthur that she was emotional. She's like,
Speaker 1: I think I just missed Korea. And when she said that,
Speaker 1: I was like, yes, I just missed Taiwan. I really
Speaker 1: really missed Taiwan. And I actually went this past winter.
Speaker 1: It had just opened up just recently, and I went
Speaker 1: and I just felt this kind of longing that I
Speaker 1: haven't felt actually so strongly. And I think the movie
Speaker 1: really capture that that it's not just about relationships, but
Speaker 1: it's a life that you might have had if you
Speaker 1: hadn't left, right. And I think Korea and Taiwan these
Speaker 1: are countries that are democracies where we're not fleeing war.
Speaker 1: At least when I came, I wasn't fleeing poverty. So
Speaker 1: it's like, why am I even here? Why, you know,
Speaker 1: why can't I be somewhere where there's public health, you know,
Speaker 1: there's health, health care for everybody around exactly so. But
Speaker 1: when I talked to Seley, she was much more focused on,
Speaker 1: you know, we are where we are meant to be, right,
Speaker 1: And I think that the longing that is captured. It
Speaker 1: really triggered stuff for me. But I think she was
Speaker 1: she I mean, she's fine with audiences taking away whatever
Speaker 1: they She just said that people asked her like or
Speaker 1: to start to talk to her about exes and how
Speaker 1: some people went back to exes and other people were
Speaker 1: like appreciating what they had, so that people had all
Speaker 1: sorts of relationship reactions, you know, because like you said,
Speaker 1: it was very specific but super universal in the idea
Speaker 1: of past loves. But for me, I definitely came to it,
Speaker 1: and the interview really about centered on the immigration story
Speaker 1: and Caitlin you had asked about how why you know
Speaker 1: she would feel simultaneously more and less Korean when she
Speaker 1: was with Hayesung. When I went to Taiwan this past winter,
Speaker 1: That's how I felt. I felt more Taiwanese but also
Speaker 1: less right. So I realized the cultural differences. I realized
Speaker 1: there were language I didn't know. But by the time
Speaker 1: I was leaving after two weeks, I felt like, oh
Speaker 1: I am I feel now more time whin needs, you know,
Speaker 1: because I had connected with parts of my culture and
Speaker 1: realized that I knew I understood it. More memories of
Speaker 1: it coming back more than I would think of when
Speaker 1: I'm here in the States. So it is this kind
Speaker 1: of when you're in between, when you're a young immigrant,
Speaker 1: you have dual identities that you know that are always
Speaker 1: kind of shuffling back and forth, and I think that
Speaker 1: the film really captures that both viscerally through you know,
Speaker 1: a relationship, but also just her kind of reflection on it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it's such a familiar experience and feeling
Speaker 3: for a lot of immigrants, especially those who immigrated as
Speaker 3: young people are also just children of immigrants who feel
Speaker 3: they belong to two different places, but also in some
Speaker 3: cases feel like they don't really belong to either place.
Speaker 3: And you know, the feeling of not being able to
Speaker 3: say a proper goodbye to the community and the place
Speaker 3: you left behind, and the kind of wonder of what
Speaker 3: would things have been if I had never left, and
Speaker 3: all of these things that the movie I think handles
Speaker 3: really thoughtfully and beautifully.
Speaker 2: Yeah, your piece is just the conversation is so beautiful,
Speaker 2: and you both sort of make this connection that I
Speaker 2: think I was so swept up in the emotion on
Speaker 2: my first viewing, but watching it the second time, it's
Speaker 2: like the inherent connection of hayesung to her home and
Speaker 2: like how it is this deep emotional relationship, but also
Speaker 2: he represents more than that, and like, how do you
Speaker 2: navigate that sort of split and how do you navigate
Speaker 2: like what you are understandably connecting to someone and then separating, Well,
Speaker 2: who are they and who am I in relation to them?
Speaker 2: And it's just it's beautiful. I feel like this movie
Speaker 2: really rewards on rewatching absolutely and gives you another chance
Speaker 2: to see Boner. It's the it's very temper of the book.
Speaker 2: Thank you for saying that.
Speaker 1: Selene talks about like their memories of each other who
Speaker 1: they were as children was kind of frozen, right because
Speaker 1: of the kind of very fast parting, And so when
Speaker 1: they come together, you know physically, right, they see each
Speaker 1: other through Skype throughout the year, but this is twenty
Speaker 1: seven years later, and that kind of connection because of
Speaker 1: that memory of who they were, and then and then
Speaker 1: the kind of shock at oh you are different, right,
Speaker 1: He's so Korean, And it's like when I go to Taiwan,
Speaker 1: I'm like, wow, they are culturally distinct, you know, from
Speaker 1: from where I came from. And then wondering is that
Speaker 1: connection still there? Is that possible because there is this
Speaker 1: this golf because you know, I've been raised in another
Speaker 1: culture and yet this longing for that and memory that
Speaker 1: I once was here. So it's this it's so complicated,
Speaker 1: and then and it's wrapped up in one's identity, right,
Speaker 1: and then you're kind of like you're searching within yourself.
Speaker 1: So so many layers of emotions that come up for
Speaker 1: this kind of immigration love.
Speaker 3: Story totally, and Jamie to speak to your point about
Speaker 3: the sort of like universality of it, even for people
Speaker 3: who aren't like separated by a cultural difference. Even if
Speaker 3: you just like reconnect with someone from your childhood who
Speaker 3: you were once very close with, but then you're separated
Speaker 3: by you know, twenty or so years of not having
Speaker 3: spoken and not keeping up to date with the other person.
Speaker 3: This has happened to me where like I've reconnected with
Speaker 3: high school friends many years later and then I'm like, oh,
Speaker 3: we don't. It's kind of weird, isn't it is. We're
Speaker 3: very different people now and we don't have that much
Speaker 3: in common anymore and that much to talk about. Not
Speaker 3: that that's necessarily what's happening exactly with Nora and Haysong,
Speaker 3: but you get like kind of glimpses of that where
Speaker 3: there are these cultural differences or just like personality differences.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you just change as you get older, Like I
Speaker 2: think about yeah, like questioning and I thought this before,
Speaker 2: and just reconnecting with someone from the past, like does
Speaker 2: it make sense for me to be in this person's
Speaker 2: life or do we just miss who we were when
Speaker 2: we knew each other and or like where we were
Speaker 2: when we knew each other. And it's like a kind
Speaker 2: of a painful question because sometimes the answer is like, yeah,
Speaker 2: maybe our time in each other's lives, like it might
Speaker 2: not make any sense anymore. And it's nice to reconnect,
Speaker 2: but like and I think, especially when it's like a
Speaker 2: romantic connection, it's even harder to parse out because you're
Speaker 2: a horny and so that's challenging.
Speaker 4: But to be like, you know, you can see even
Speaker 4: though at no point in the movie was I thinking
Speaker 4: like Nora is going to leave with Hayesung, there are
Speaker 4: moments that you can or at least maybe I'm projecting
Speaker 4: a dart, but you can see her trying to like
Speaker 4: game out like well, what does that look like a
Speaker 4: year from now?
Speaker 2: Like how would it actually work? And that's like a
Speaker 2: necessary but like painful thing to watch a character navigate
Speaker 2: on both ends.
Speaker 3: There's another piece I found about this movie that I
Speaker 3: also thought was great. It's by Sylvia Jiholi, published in
Speaker 3: Little White Lies. It's entitled Past Lives finally pushes the
Speaker 3: Asian American diaspora genre into the present. And I want
Speaker 3: to kind of like half quote half paraphrase this, but
Speaker 3: it opens with quote. It's no secret that Hollywood loves
Speaker 3: the formula. When Asianama American stories proved marketable to Western
Speaker 3: audiences in the nineties with Wayne Wang's Joylot Club and
Speaker 3: Angli's Father Knows Best trilogy, a new cliche similarly arose
Speaker 3: to counterbalance its unconventional subject, Asian Americans as walking oxymorons,
Speaker 3: the only identity in the world to be labeled with
Speaker 3: the ethnicities they weren't enough of. A classic protagonist symbolized
Speaker 3: the split between East and West, someone who was too
Speaker 3: Asian to fully fit in with work colleagues, but to
Speaker 3: American to adopt their parents' values as gospel. The resulting
Speaker 3: conflict was one that inherently viewed the motherland as an
Speaker 3: impediment to true assimilation, implying a life perpetually lived in
Speaker 3: service to either Asian approval or white validation. These films
Speaker 3: potentially resonated with an earlier generation whose immigration was inherently
Speaker 3: predicated on conforming to white but is no longer the
Speaker 3: case for someone like me who came of age in
Speaker 3: the same country with little care for that sort of acceptance.
Speaker 3: A modern approach to Asian diasporic diasporic Which way do
Speaker 3: you say that diasporic filmmaking should push self definition beyond
Speaker 3: this binary something I see in Saline Songs Past Lives unquote.
Speaker 3: I know that was a long excerpt from that, but yeah,
Speaker 3: the piece goes on to examine the kind of emotions
Speaker 3: and nuances that surround the act of leaving your home country,
Speaker 3: of assimilating into a new culture and mindset, of missing
Speaker 3: your home, and how a person's feelings toward those things
Speaker 3: evolve as you mature. And yeah, I just thought this
Speaker 3: was like such a great piece that touches on so
Speaker 3: much of what the is doing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there isn't kind of a East versus West. There
Speaker 1: isn't actually even much talk about that so much in
Speaker 1: that Oh my gosh, even though she says, you know,
Speaker 1: I think I missed Korea. It's not you don't hit
Speaker 1: over the head with the immigrant story. You see her
Speaker 1: as a young immigrant. You see where she's at, and
Speaker 1: you see how you know, she and both Hayes wonder
Speaker 1: about what their lives could have been she if she
Speaker 1: hadn't immigrated. But it's really centered on the relationship, right,
Speaker 1: and it's not about like you see her parents too,
Speaker 1: but her parents are not tortured in any way, and
Speaker 1: that her parents, I mean her parents who are artists.
Speaker 1: She's an artist those that's kind of anti stereotype already,
Speaker 1: because I think there's a lot of one singular representation
Speaker 1: of immigrants, even though a lot of immigrants from East
Speaker 1: Asia are coming from you know, actually because of the laws,
Speaker 1: they had to be highly educated because those were the
Speaker 1: ones that were they you know, the United States was
Speaker 1: letting in posting and that their artists, which is not
Speaker 1: something I think that Asian Americans are typically portrayed as,
Speaker 1: especially in the immigrant generation, and that they didn't leave
Speaker 1: because of a push factor, but they just wanted to
Speaker 1: try something new. That's very universal, right, It's like just
Speaker 1: people moving through their lives and making choices. And I
Speaker 1: think that that is true because I think about I
Speaker 1: think my parents just wanted to come here because that
Speaker 1: was the thing to do for educated Taiwanese Americans. It
Speaker 1: wasn't like they didn't have jobs back at home. They
Speaker 1: just wanted to do. They wanted to be like overachievers
Speaker 1: and do what everybody and it was a trend or something,
Speaker 1: you know. It was just if you could do it,
Speaker 1: you do it. And none of them said that they
Speaker 1: came here to make a better life for me. That's
Speaker 1: not like like those stories and those tropes never resonated
Speaker 1: with me. I mean, I grew up kind of dysfunctionally too,
Speaker 1: so I never think of like I owe my parents
Speaker 1: or anything like that. And that wasn't represented in this
Speaker 1: story either, Right. Her mom and her just had a
Speaker 1: great relationship. They talked about you know, I just talked
Speaker 1: and they visited and it wasn't it wasn't a big deal.
Speaker 1: And I think that it is a very modern representation.
Speaker 1: There's no tension between that and there isn't any kind
Speaker 1: of white worshiping in this sense because she's literally sitting
Speaker 1: between these two people that she is you know that
Speaker 1: she has loved and now she loves and it's just life.
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, Yeah, so many tropes subverted in this movie,
Speaker 3: and again it's so refreshing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's just like effortless to what the story is.
Speaker 2: Where I like that, I don't know. I feel like
Speaker 2: often in stories, I'm like, I want to see this
Speaker 2: character's dynamic with their family more, which I wouldn't have
Speaker 2: disliked it in this story, but it felt like where
Speaker 2: this story lies is so confidently with these three characters,
Speaker 2: and more specifically these two characters, and I really appreciate how.
Speaker 2: And it also is like it doesn't work if Celia's
Speaker 2: song isn't an amazing writer, which she is, and there's
Speaker 2: no I feel like there's a lot of writing that
Speaker 2: self consciously kind of over explains, like what happened in
Speaker 2: the interceding twelve years, but you're just showing it and
Speaker 2: you know you don't know everything, but you know enough
Speaker 2: to be deeply invested in what's going on with these characters,
Speaker 2: because it wasn't I don't think until my second or
Speaker 2: third viewing where I was like, I wonder.
Speaker 1: What are sister's up to?
Speaker 2: But like it's are the story is so book?
Speaker 1: Where's Michelle? Where's Michelle?
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's what I want, And I mean, instead of Boner,
Speaker 2: is what's Michelle up to? But in a lesser movie
Speaker 2: that would have pinged for me. But it's like this
Speaker 2: movie is just completely we are with Nora, and I
Speaker 2: really really love.
Speaker 3: That same And like we've mentioned, the movie cares enough
Speaker 3: about the other characters besides Nora to really kind of
Speaker 3: fully explore their emotions as they relate to the events
Speaker 3: of the story in a way that I thought was
Speaker 3: also interesting, because you know, a big component of this
Speaker 3: movie is examining how Nora feels about her circumstances, but
Speaker 3: there's also a decent emphasis on the men's feelings. And
Speaker 3: not to talk about men on the Bechdel cast, but
Speaker 3: these are two men who I think are i would say,
Speaker 3: more emotionally intelligent and expressive than a typical Hollywood movie
Speaker 3: male character, and I really appreciated that. I was so
Speaker 3: blown away by the scene where Nora and her husband
Speaker 3: Arthur are having a conversation where she has just come
Speaker 3: from her first day of hanging out with Heysong and
Speaker 3: Arthur says is he attractive? And she's like, yeah, I
Speaker 3: think so, and then he's like, well, are you attracted
Speaker 3: to him, and then she like pauses to ponder this
Speaker 3: and then says, I don't think so. It's just that
Speaker 3: he was, you know, a memory from my childhood, and
Speaker 3: then he was an image on my laptop and now
Speaker 3: he's a physical person and that's very intense. But I
Speaker 3: don't think it's attraction. And you can tell that Arthur
Speaker 3: isn't necessarily like thrilled about this situation, and he seems
Speaker 3: insecure about it. But I also feel like he's handling
Speaker 3: it fairly maturely. He doesn't fly into a jealous rage,
Speaker 3: which is what I'm accustomed to seeing in real life
Speaker 3: and in movies, which is really more of an indication
Speaker 3: of the low bar for men's behavior than it is
Speaker 3: for anything else.
Speaker 2: But right, because he's not perfect either, and I think
Speaker 2: that that's equally important. You can tell he's insecure, you
Speaker 2: can tell when he feels awkward and out of place,
Speaker 2: and even at some point times I think annoyed. I'm
Speaker 2: sure every viewer feels a little different about his reactions,
Speaker 2: and I kind of felt different from viewing to viewing,
Speaker 2: where sometimes I'm like, ah, that I get Wyatt, and
Speaker 2: the other times I'm just like, let them have their
Speaker 2: moment get.
Speaker 3: Out leave, yeah, get out of the way. But all
Speaker 3: this to say that I felt like that conversation between
Speaker 3: the two of them was one of the most honest
Speaker 3: and mature conversations I've seen on screen between a married couple.
Speaker 3: Kind of Ever, like characters are never that honest and
Speaker 3: open with each other about because you would normally see, oh,
Speaker 3: are you attracted to him? Of course not. No, I
Speaker 3: only have eyes for you, baby, You're the only person
Speaker 3: I've ever been attracted to, and blah blah blah. And
Speaker 3: it's just like, that's not real life. Conversations like that
Speaker 3: might happen, but it's between people who aren't mature enough
Speaker 3: to be open and honest with each other and to
Speaker 3: accept other people's honesty. I was like blown away by
Speaker 3: how profoundly honest and open it was. I loved it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it was real if for people who have
Speaker 1: healthy long term relationships, right, it's I definitely. I actually
Speaker 1: with my partner, my husband, and we've been married many,
Speaker 1: many years, over two decades, and thank you, and I
Speaker 1: have actually had a very similar conversation like they did.
Speaker 1: And because if it's based on mutual respect, you don't
Speaker 1: want to accuse someone you know, ye, you've known forever,
Speaker 1: but you want to ask those questions just to make
Speaker 1: sure because of that, you know, that tiny bit of doubt,
Speaker 1: and also making sure things are appropriate, right, but that's
Speaker 1: negotiable as well, right if you trust each other. And
Speaker 1: I think that it is realistic, and I'm sure it's
Speaker 1: probably based on what happened right in her in her
Speaker 1: real life. And that's and I think that's the beauty
Speaker 1: of this film. It resonates so much because I think
Speaker 1: it is rooted in reality rather than, like you said,
Speaker 1: these Hollywood tropes. But you know what's really interesting is
Speaker 1: that at the very very end, you know how Arthur
Speaker 1: waits for Nora. I was talking to someone and they said, oh,
Speaker 1: it's because he didn't trust her, and I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: that's not how I read it at all. I thought
Speaker 1: he was waiting for her because he knew she would
Speaker 1: be emotional and would need support. But this is the
Speaker 1: whole Jamie, what you were saying that you know, a
Speaker 1: lot is left unsead. So you know, this person I
Speaker 1: was talking to know had a totally different interpretation of that,
Speaker 1: because you don't even hear them say anything. You just
Speaker 1: hear it. You just see him holding her as she's
Speaker 1: you know, bawling at the end, and it's like I
Speaker 1: thought he was standing for all of us who are bolling,
Speaker 1: Like I need that hung too, Arthur, because this lovely
Speaker 1: man just left and I don't know what to do.
Speaker 1: And so yeah, so I think this, I don't know
Speaker 1: people's expectations of what, Yeah, the jealous husband is supposed
Speaker 1: to look like.
Speaker 3: Totally yeah. And he describes it in this like fictional
Speaker 3: Hollywood version of the story that could play it out
Speaker 3: in a very Hollywood way where it's, you know, two
Speaker 3: people reconnect after a long time and discover their love
Speaker 3: for each other again and the woman leaves her evil
Speaker 3: husband to be with her childhoods sweetheart and that's like
Speaker 3: again the very like fantasy Hollywood version of that story.
Speaker 3: And he's like joking about it because like this movie
Speaker 3: is the antithesis of like a typical Hollywood narrative like that.
Speaker 3: And again, like.
Speaker 2: Selin Song finds these really funny visuals that she doesn't
Speaker 2: call out, but like the scene where Nora comes home
Speaker 2: and she's had one of the most emotionally challenging days
Speaker 2: of her life, reconnecting with Haysong and her husband is
Speaker 2: gaming and you're just like, oh my god.
Speaker 3: He's playing Call of Booty or something.
Speaker 2: Right, and you're just like that he's trying to distract himself.
Speaker 1: I was thinking, you know, he really needed because he's
Speaker 1: like thinking about, you know, his wife out. Yeah, exactly,
Speaker 1: so he has to game in order to like distract himself.
Speaker 1: That I thought that was my interpretation of that. Yeah, totally. Again,
Speaker 1: it's just like.
Speaker 2: Showing, not telling of like, Okay, they are both having
Speaker 2: a day. And also it's just like kind of this
Speaker 2: domestic scene and getting back to what you were talking about, Nancy,
Speaker 2: about their relationship. There were moments in and yeah, I think,
Speaker 2: you know, there's like an understandable tendency to project your
Speaker 2: own relationship history onto this movie. But I really appreciated
Speaker 2: that they had enough mutual respect that when he asked
Speaker 2: her challenging questions, where it probably would have been more
Speaker 2: calming or and more soothing to hear the like, no,
Speaker 2: it's nothing, I feel nothing, like Nora is like I
Speaker 2: don't know, like I'm trying to figure out how I
Speaker 2: feel about it. I'm not sure, and like doesn't give
Speaker 2: the reflexive comfort that I think in a lot of
Speaker 2: hetero relationships, women are conditioned to give men of just
Speaker 2: and that does go both ways, but I think more
Speaker 2: so in that direction of like well, no, of course,
Speaker 2: and like rest assured blah blah blah. And but instead
Speaker 2: this is like a true partnership that is going to
Speaker 2: have to weather some challenging shit, and that he is
Speaker 2: considerate enough of her to know that, like he can't
Speaker 2: understand the set of emotions she's navigating, and what his
Speaker 2: job is is to be present for her in the
Speaker 2: way that she needs. And that's like his test here,
Speaker 2: and I think he does his best. I don't know,
Speaker 2: and I agree with your read at the end, Nancy
Speaker 2: that it's just like I'm sure he was a little anxious,
Speaker 2: but it's also like, I mean, if there's any time
Speaker 2: you're gonna need a hug, that's the time.
Speaker 3: That's it.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And when he's sitting next to her on the bar,
Speaker 1: just kind of sitting and letting the two of them
Speaker 1: talk bout in of itself, I thought was a was
Speaker 1: really showing his support.
Speaker 3: For sure. So many straight white men would do whatever
Speaker 3: they could to try to insert themselves into that situation
Speaker 3: and just like be obnoxious about it, but he's like.
Speaker 2: He's sitting there thinking about the plot of Boner two.
Speaker 1: Laying his gaming.
Speaker 2: Call of Duty highlights, just playing passively in his mind
Speaker 2: or touches like lot. Even though they, like all three
Speaker 2: of them, are in not easily navigated situation, it's weirdly soothing,
Speaker 2: I think, to see characters in a movie and just
Speaker 2: know that you're like, everyone is doing their best. Everyone's
Speaker 2: doing their best, and it's nice even though it's like
Speaker 2: it's an impossible thing to do perfectly, because there's no
Speaker 2: such thing as a perfect way for this scenario to go.
Speaker 2: But everyone's doing their best, and that made me feel
Speaker 2: even though it's a difficult watch if you're not emotionally
Speaker 2: prepared for it, it is nice to feel like, well,
Speaker 2: these three characters did their absolute best to get through
Speaker 2: it with respect for themselves and for the other people,
Speaker 2: which is just kind of a rare thing to.
Speaker 3: See totally, because with his song, he is a character
Speaker 3: who even from childhood, he is sensitive, he's easily emotionally affected,
Speaker 3: but you also see him like maturing over the years
Speaker 3: as far as like how he processes and expresses his emotions,
Speaker 3: and I'm not saying he's necessarily like a beacon of
Speaker 3: emotional intelligence.
Speaker 2: But what man is?
Speaker 3: What man is? Number one? Number two, We are so
Speaker 3: used to seeing men on screen who are extremely emotionally repressed,
Speaker 3: and that doesn't come from nothing. Obviously, there's a real
Speaker 3: life precedent for that. Or we see a man who's
Speaker 3: you know, made emotion that they express is aggression. But
Speaker 3: we see this character who is far more sensitive than
Speaker 3: you know, your typical male movie character, where when he's
Speaker 3: learning that Nyong is moving away, he's visibly upset by it.
Speaker 3: He's like trying his best to comfort her in different
Speaker 3: situations and be supportive, but he's also twelve and he
Speaker 3: doesn't really know how to navigate that. And then when
Speaker 3: he's in his twenties, there's a scene where he's out
Speaker 3: drinking with his friends and one of them is upset
Speaker 3: because he's just broken up with his girlfriend, and I
Speaker 3: Sung embraces him and he's like, let it out, buddy,
Speaker 3: It's okay to cry, and I'm like, that's such a
Speaker 3: nice thing to see. And then different times he tells
Speaker 3: Nora like, it wasn't a joke for me to look
Speaker 3: for you. I actually missed you. And I tried really hard.
Speaker 3: And when she tells him she wants to stop speaking
Speaker 3: for a while, he starts like softly crying, and then
Speaker 3: he goes, why am I like this? Because he's, you know,
Speaker 3: a man navigating having emotions in a patriarchal world which
Speaker 3: encourages men to not express their emotions, and so you know,
Speaker 3: I understand his reaction, but you know, he's like openly upset,
Speaker 3: but also respecting her boundaries, which is a thing we
Speaker 3: also never see men doing. Yes, And then finally, you know,
Speaker 3: when they reunite in their thirties, I think they must
Speaker 3: be like thirty six. He is talking about, you know,
Speaker 3: how sad he was when she abruptly left, and how
Speaker 3: he didn't know it would be this hard to see
Speaker 3: how much she likes her husband, But he's also acknowledging that, like,
Speaker 3: this is where you're supposed to be, Nora like, and
Speaker 3: I feel like he's implying that any hope he has
Speaker 3: of them being together or winding up together, he knows
Speaker 3: is unrealistic. And again, that's such a mature way to
Speaker 3: handle that whole situation, And it was really encouraging for
Speaker 3: me to see these two different characters who are men
Speaker 3: handling these complicated situations with the level of maturity and
Speaker 3: emotional intelligence that they display.
Speaker 1: So no red flags. There's just two green flag men I.
Speaker 2: Know, which is like God. Then it becomes like a
Speaker 2: fantasy genre when in my life has there been two
Speaker 2: good options interesting?
Speaker 3: Usually there are zero.
Speaker 1: Yes, no.
Speaker 2: But I really appreciate like, even though Hey, Sung, I
Speaker 2: think like says much less because we're navigating Nora's relationships centrally.
Speaker 2: It's interesting on the rewatch when you sort of stop,
Speaker 2: can remove yourself from the like pie and wanting these
Speaker 2: two characters to be together and like, you can see
Speaker 2: it a little more clearly of how the types of
Speaker 2: attachments they have to each other. Where it seems like
Speaker 2: for Nora, Hayesung is representative of both her childhood and
Speaker 2: her home, and in the reverse, Nora seems to represent
Speaker 2: sort of this I don't know, I mean because I
Speaker 2: feel like I've had versions of this experience of someone
Speaker 2: who exists in your brain only as a kid, and
Speaker 2: there's all of this potential for yourself that you attached
Speaker 2: to people that you knew when you were younger. And
Speaker 2: because we know that he doesn't seem quite as sure
Speaker 2: of his professional path as Nora does. He feels like,
Speaker 2: I mean, he's doing well, but there are insecurities he
Speaker 2: feels about his income, about his career. It seems like
Speaker 2: in the professional sense he feels a little more untethered
Speaker 2: than Nora does, who is very confident and passionate that
Speaker 2: this is she's doing the right thing. And again, it's
Speaker 2: just like the writing in this movie is fucking incredible
Speaker 2: because it's never stated, but you can.
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 2: The more I watched it, the more it was like, Oh,
Speaker 2: there's like a part of him that is like when
Speaker 2: I was close with her when I was a child,
Speaker 2: I had all of this potential and none of this uncertainty,
Speaker 2: and it's like a longing to reconnect with that too.
Speaker 2: Or I don't know, maybe I'm overthinking it, but I
Speaker 2: was like, I've definitely thought.
Speaker 1: That I totally agree because I think that he says
Speaker 1: that he keeps track of her prizes that she wants
Speaker 1: to win. Right, you know, what's what's the prize you
Speaker 1: want now, Pulitzer, A you know, a whatever whatever? Then yes, yes, exactly,
Speaker 1: And it's I feel like he was living a little
Speaker 1: bit vicariously through her and maybe she represents something aspirational,
Speaker 1: and he does ask would I have looked for you
Speaker 1: if you hadn't left? Like, would he feel the same way.
Speaker 1: It's like she presents something that, yeah, like a unfulfilled
Speaker 1: aspiration life that he might have had. And that is
Speaker 1: so universal, right, it's kind of like, you know, unfulfilled wishes.
Speaker 1: So I love that, Jamie, because I think I see
Speaker 1: that now. I didn't think about his his I think
Speaker 1: I just saw everything from you know, Nora's perspective and
Speaker 1: really centered on her, which is great because we don't
Speaker 1: even have enough films or we could do that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and so why not? So do I even care about
Speaker 1: why he likes her and why why her husband is
Speaker 1: you know, playing games is still there. I didn't even
Speaker 1: care about his book. That's how little like about their perspectives.
Speaker 1: I didn't even see the boner, didn't.
Speaker 2: Fare We're weird for noticing.
Speaker 1: No, no, no, you know it's it was because I
Speaker 1: really was just I was able to see myself, I think,
Speaker 1: in Naura and and that's so rare, and to be
Speaker 1: able to kind of just fully love that part was
Speaker 1: just exciting.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I feel like it just like speaks to
Speaker 2: how strong this movie is. That you can look almost
Speaker 2: anywhere in terms of like what character you're giving deference to,
Speaker 2: and you're viewing where you're like and it's like a
Speaker 2: rewarding and like heart wrenching experience no matter where you're looking.
Speaker 2: And I cannot wait for Selene Sung to make a
Speaker 2: million movies, as many movies as she wants. This is
Speaker 2: just a fun fact I did not know about her
Speaker 2: because I didn't know much about her before this movie
Speaker 2: came out. That she I mean, because this is sort
Speaker 2: of an auto fiction kind of screenplay. She is a playwright,
Speaker 2: but that during Lockdown she directed a live production of
Speaker 2: Chekhov's The Seagull using the SIMS four on Twitch And
Speaker 2: I just think that's one of the best sentences I've
Speaker 2: ever read. And so few people manage should do something
Speaker 2: artistically fun and interesting during lockdown, and I was like, Wow,
Speaker 2: she really is the goat. How does the brain think
Speaker 2: of that perfect idea?
Speaker 3: Tell me about it. I just have a couple stray observations,
Speaker 3: which the first one being I appreciated seeing a married
Speaker 3: couple who are in their mid thirties who don't have kids,
Speaker 3: and there's no mention of them trying to have kids. Obviously,
Speaker 3: I'm not sure what this fictional couple's future holds. Maybe
Speaker 3: they'll have kids down the road. But as a child
Speaker 3: free by choice adult myself, I appreciate seeing on screen
Speaker 3: representation of other child free adults who are close to
Speaker 3: my age. So stray observation number one. Another thing I
Speaker 3: would say, like, maybe my only note for this movie
Speaker 3: is that Nora and Haisan calling each other something in
Speaker 3: Korean that translates to a pretty ablest word in English.
Speaker 3: I don't know if it has the same ablest connotation
Speaker 3: in Korean, but I guess just a reminder that, you know,
Speaker 3: we on the podcast encourage people to be mindful of
Speaker 3: the language they use, and even if it is in
Speaker 3: a joking context, to be aware of anything that has
Speaker 3: ablest under or overtones. So that's my little speech about that.
Speaker 3: And then the third and final thing I have for
Speaker 3: this movie is this Onions have layers.
Speaker 2: I knew that's just gonna happen.
Speaker 3: And Indians have layers.
Speaker 2: I knew it. As like I didn't want to do
Speaker 2: it at the beginning, but I'm like Caitlin, I trust
Speaker 2: I'd see this speaks to our Inian and our deep
Speaker 2: connection that I knew you were going to bring it
Speaker 2: to Shrek and it was really just a matter of time.
Speaker 3: It was a matter of time, and I saved it
Speaker 3: for the end. And yes, you're welcome everybody.
Speaker 1: Were we actually going to talk about whether it passes
Speaker 1: the Buchdel test?
Speaker 3: Yes, we can do that now, unless you have anything
Speaker 3: else you'd like to say about the movie before we
Speaker 3: start to wrap up.
Speaker 1: Oh gosh. I thought that it deserved Best Picture. I
Speaker 1: knew it wouldn't because of the momentum, but instead they
Speaker 1: rewarded a film about men behaving really.
Speaker 2: Badly to say the least.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Toddler esque backstabbing. And I thought, because there
Speaker 1: were a lot of talk about why maybe Past Lives
Speaker 1: was going to be looked over because it had no
Speaker 1: real conflict and no real toxicity. And I thought, and
Speaker 1: then that's when it made me realize, Wow, Appenheimer is
Speaker 1: all about toxicity, right that to me, the whole relationships
Speaker 1: between all the men were how they were going to
Speaker 1: screw each other over. And I realized that that's not
Speaker 1: a movie for me. That's not a movie that I'm
Speaker 1: attracted to. I don't like that watching that it doesn't
Speaker 1: give me any pleasure and it doesn't make society a
Speaker 1: better place. So I really felt that that contrast between
Speaker 1: exactly what we're talking about today, that kind of emotional
Speaker 1: maturity of the men and just relationships in general, and
Speaker 1: the objuctification of course of women you know, in that movie,
Speaker 1: and I just thought, Wow, we're not going to give
Speaker 1: it to the healthy, wonderful representation that actually can you know,
Speaker 1: elevate our world. But anyway, that was that was my
Speaker 1: thought about the Awards season. Yeah, it did win Best
Speaker 1: Independent Film though.
Speaker 2: Award, So yes, I was like, they would never let
Speaker 2: two good movies win in a row. And so because
Speaker 2: everything everywhere, all at once won Best Picture in twenty
Speaker 2: twenty three, I'm like, whatever win's in twenty twenty.
Speaker 1: Four, it's not going to be for me.
Speaker 2: That was my prediction. And you know, the Oscars are dogshit.
Speaker 2: But yeah, in terms of of the Bexel test, I
Speaker 2: believe it.
Speaker 3: Is a pass.
Speaker 1: Yes, it passes.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Nora talks to her mom about you know, her English
Speaker 3: name that she chooses. They also talk later when Nora
Speaker 3: is in her twenties, and the conversation does quickly turn
Speaker 3: to like, oh, let me look up this boy I
Speaker 3: had a crush on. So you know, it's not necessarily
Speaker 3: a movie that passes constantly or consistently. It's pretty fleeting moments.
Speaker 3: But also, like again, as we always talk about, a
Speaker 3: movie can like not pass the Bechdel Test or barely pass,
Speaker 3: and it can still be a poignant, thoughtful feminist movie
Speaker 3: with good representation, right, And many movies that do pass
Speaker 3: the Bechdel Test can still be problematic pieces of shit.
Speaker 2: So yeah, like kind of due by accident are like
Speaker 2: not thoughtfully Yeah, I mean there's nothing more. I feel
Speaker 2: like we have to say this every so often just
Speaker 2: to remind people because I will never forget over the
Speaker 2: like whatever dust up on Twitter where people were like
Speaker 2: Fire Island doesn't pass the Bechdel Test, and you're like, god,
Speaker 2: oh my god, Like it is not the law, but spiritually,
Speaker 2: I sometimes I'm just like the Bechdel test is a
Speaker 2: more of a vibe check, which this movie passes handily
Speaker 2: because yeah, you get the technical past when Nora talks
Speaker 2: with her mom. But also this is a movie that
Speaker 2: is written and directed by a woman, that centers on
Speaker 2: a woman's experiences, thoughts, feelings, relationships. Yeah, no, notes.
Speaker 1: There's also there's a beautiful scene on the airplane between
Speaker 1: Nyong and her sister. That's right, and they are speaking
Speaker 1: in English with each other, how are you? I am fine?
Speaker 1: And you and you and you. I feel like that
Speaker 1: scene in of itself should be embodying the Bechdel Test
Speaker 1: in that because that scene represents their relationship. Also this
Speaker 1: huge transition that they're going to make between you know,
Speaker 1: immigrating from Korea to America, and the kind of humor,
Speaker 1: but also yeah, just kids trying to make light of
Speaker 1: something that is gonna it's like a huge thing that's
Speaker 1: going to change their lives forever. Right, So I thought
Speaker 1: she really is an amazing writer because, yeah, that one
Speaker 1: little scene of them practicing English and laughing about the
Speaker 1: kind of I don't know, I think anyone who's taken
Speaker 1: any kind of language course can really relate where you
Speaker 1: kind of are silly on a very basic level with
Speaker 1: a new language. And it's a way to kind of
Speaker 1: assuage the anxiety you may have about, you know, having
Speaker 1: to try something new and communicate with people that you
Speaker 1: know how you're gonna barely be able to communicate with,
Speaker 1: and the safety of doing that with a sister. Really,
Speaker 1: I think captures all of that so beautifully. So that
Speaker 1: scene no boys, no men, no one, you know, and
Speaker 1: then it's not you're gonna get a transition to that.
Speaker 1: It's really just about the two of them. I thought
Speaker 1: that was a really beautiful, beautiful scene.
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, thank you for reminding me of that. I
Speaker 3: almost forgot about that scene, but it's so adorable.
Speaker 2: It's so tender. The last thing I wanted to shout
Speaker 2: out with this movie is because I feel like sometimes
Speaker 2: we kind of forget to shout out the crew, and
Speaker 2: Cillian Song worked with an incredibly diverse crew in terms
Speaker 2: of gender, in terms of race. I mean, it's just
Speaker 2: like it really seems like it was and just based
Speaker 2: on what I read and saw about behind the scenes,
Speaker 2: just like a really beautiful group effort. And also for
Speaker 2: all my twenty twelve heads out there, if you were
Speaker 2: a fan of the band Grizzly Bear, which I was
Speaker 2: when I was in college, they did the score for
Speaker 2: this movie, So yeah, that's the shout out for my
Speaker 2: college radio heads.
Speaker 3: Very nice.
Speaker 1: And I think the producer, the big producer, is the
Speaker 1: same producer that did Paris as well. Yes, so I
Speaker 1: thought that was amazing, Like, oh wow, Parasite and Past Lives,
Speaker 1: it's kind of very different movies. Yeah, but it's like
Speaker 1: that woman can really spot them, you know, in terms
Speaker 1: of great, great films.
Speaker 3: Totally.
Speaker 2: And then the cinematographer, I hope I'm getting his name
Speaker 2: right as Shabi or Kirchner, who most famously works with
Speaker 2: Steve McQueen as well and almost exclusively in features. And
Speaker 2: I want to chut this out because I feel like,
Speaker 2: you know, he is a male cinematographer who almost exclusively
Speaker 2: works with women directors, which is again just a rare find.
Speaker 2: So a shout out to him for being able to
Speaker 2: work with women. Most men are bad at that.
Speaker 3: Certainly. That brings us to our metric, the famous nipple scale,
Speaker 3: the most important metric of all time, a scale where
Speaker 3: we rate the movie zero to five nipples based on
Speaker 3: examining it through an intersectional feminist lens. And I'm going
Speaker 3: to give this movie the full five nipples. A rare
Speaker 3: instance on the show, but this is a movie that
Speaker 3: not only centers a woman, it centers a woman of color,
Speaker 3: It centers an immigrant. It is written and directed by
Speaker 3: a woman who also has that exact experience and that
Speaker 3: is why the movie is so well handled and thoughtfully done.
Speaker 3: And yeah, I love just the exploration of Nora and
Speaker 3: her journey with her experience as an immigrant, and also
Speaker 3: the two men around her. Again not to be like, wow,
Speaker 3: the male characters are awesome, but in this movie, like,
Speaker 3: they're really thoughtfully written and characterized in a way that
Speaker 3: I found to be really refreshing. And I hope that
Speaker 3: men see this movie and learn a thing or two
Speaker 3: from it. So yeah, so much to like, so many
Speaker 3: things that were so well done about this movie. So
Speaker 3: I'm gonna give it five nipples, and I'm gonna give
Speaker 3: them to Selene's Song and Greta Lee and also Nora's
Speaker 3: little sister Michelle.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm going the full five two no reason not
Speaker 2: to write whatever pleasure to get to say that. No,
Speaker 2: it's this movie. I mean, we've talked it out, but
Speaker 2: just it is so beautiful. It just made me so
Speaker 2: excited to see more of Celene Song's work and to
Speaker 2: see someone just like put a thoughtful, effortless story on screen.
Speaker 2: The performances are wonderful, all the tactical elements are wonderful,
Speaker 2: but it doesn't work if Selene Song isn't an incredible
Speaker 2: and thoughtful filmmaker. And so that is why I'm giving
Speaker 2: all five nipples to well, Okay, I'm gonna split in half.
Speaker 2: Half of them go to Cilli and Sog and the
Speaker 2: other half go to the seagull on the SIMS four.
Speaker 3: Yes, of course, yes, Nancy, how about you.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna also do five nipples and five boners for
Speaker 1: the for the good men that have shown us how
Speaker 1: men can support women in a way that is healthy
Speaker 1: and certainly centered on her, and I appreciate that. I
Speaker 1: think that's why the the you know, we are drawn
Speaker 1: to these portraits of men because they are so supportive
Speaker 1: of her and they allow her to kind of have
Speaker 1: her full emotional journey and not getting her away. So
Speaker 1: you know, I think that's all we can ask of,
Speaker 1: you know, our our friends and family members and loved ones,
Speaker 1: is to be supportive of our emotional journey. So absolutely,
Speaker 1: so yeah, everything y'all said about the intersectional, it's in
Speaker 1: an authentic way, in a way that is that feels real,
Speaker 1: that hasn't been seen before, that isn't white centered, that
Speaker 1: isn't male centered. But it doesn't ignore them, right, it
Speaker 1: doesn't try to preach anything. It is just by being
Speaker 1: real and centered on real, you know, emotionally pretty healthy
Speaker 1: mature adults, it portrays something that is unfortunately lacking in cinema.
Speaker 1: So but at least it was nominated for Best Picture,
Speaker 1: so I hope more people see it. I remember giving
Speaker 1: a talk at at Belmont University in Nashville and saying
Speaker 1: that Past Lives was the best film that I had
Speaker 1: seen that year, and then I said, who else, who
Speaker 1: else has seen this? And then a white man, a
Speaker 1: white you know, student, raised his hand and I said,
Speaker 1: what did you think of the film? He's like, I
Speaker 1: thought it was the best film of the year. And
Speaker 1: I said, see, it's not just me an Asian woman
Speaker 1: that makes this. This white this fine white gentleman also
Speaker 1: believes the same. So I love that right that we
Speaker 1: shared the same opinion about this movie because it spoke
Speaker 1: to us, and maybe for him, he's like, I want
Speaker 1: to see, you know, role models that I can relate to,
Speaker 1: or men that cry because I cry, you know, whatever
Speaker 1: it is that he related to, or maybe just good storytelling,
Speaker 1: whatever it is, right, I think, Yeah, really great films
Speaker 1: can speak to everyone across different different groups, and hopefully again.
Speaker 1: Make our society, you know, better behaved and more supportive
Speaker 1: of one another in a community.
Speaker 3: We can only hope.
Speaker 2: God, I mean this. I know we're wrapping up, but yeah,
Speaker 2: you saying emotionally mature adults in a movie. I'm like, yeah,
Speaker 2: that is another very rare thing, because there I mean,
Speaker 2: I love messy characters. But yeah, so many movies are
Speaker 2: adults behaving like children, and this is adult's mature adult
Speaker 2: navigating messiness. Rare, a perfect movie. There you heard it.
Speaker 2: Everyone gave Past Lives five nipples. It's a perfect movie.
Speaker 2: If you haven't seen it, you have to. If you
Speaker 2: have seen it, turn this off and go watch it again.
Speaker 3: Yes, but before you do that, Nancy, thank you so
Speaker 3: much for joining us for this wonderful discussion.
Speaker 2: Yes, thank you so much.
Speaker 3: Come back anytime. And where can people find your work
Speaker 3: you're writing? Follow you on any social media, plug anything
Speaker 3: you'd like to plug.
Speaker 1: Oh my goodness, that's such a funny question. Now that
Speaker 1: social media has changed. I used to always say follow
Speaker 1: me on Twitter, and now it's like social media talk
Speaker 1: about some emotionally immature I feel like, behaving like children.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yes, the people that actually are in charge of social media,
Speaker 1: but you can find me on my website where you
Speaker 1: can download this article, the article we talked about on LLE,
Speaker 1: my interview with selling Song, as well as just links
Speaker 1: to my books and reports and all sorts of stuff.
Speaker 1: So it's Nancy whyutin dot com and I am Nancy
Speaker 1: why you eat in one? That's my handle for wherever
Speaker 1: you are so excellent. Oh, in my book Real Inequality. Sorry,
Speaker 1: my book is Real Inequality Hollywood actors and racism. It's
Speaker 1: about experiences, not just actors, but just Hollywood racism in general.
Speaker 1: I'm actually in the process of updating it so perhaps
Speaker 1: and hopefully for like a maybe a ten year follow
Speaker 1: up that will be coming out. I'm also writing a
Speaker 1: memoir based on the TV shows and films I watched
Speaker 1: growing up, as well as the Asian American films. I
Speaker 1: may be working past lives into my memoir actually, because
Speaker 1: it really did speak so much to my own understanding
Speaker 1: of immigration, and so many films like The Farewell and
Speaker 1: Minari and now this film really speaking too maybe helping
Speaker 1: me process my own immigration trauma so much. So just movies,
Speaker 1: you know, can help you do that. In their best
Speaker 1: they can be cathartic, they can be revelatory, So I
Speaker 1: think that's that's what films about are truly doing the work.
Speaker 1: And all the things that I listed all autobiographical.
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, and they all came out within the past
Speaker 3: like three years, which is roughly indicative of a like
Speaker 3: trend of there being far more stories like this and
Speaker 3: stories about underrepresented people and communities. So thank you again
Speaker 3: for joining us. I really appreciate it. Come back anytime,
Speaker 3: bring any movie.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much fun, so much fun. Well, I
Speaker 1: will talk about everything everywhere all at once if you want to,
Speaker 1: because there are so many similar things, right in terms
Speaker 1: of you know, not a supportive male figures and yeah.
Speaker 3: I know. And in the meantime, you can follow us
Speaker 3: on mostly Instagram these days. At Bechdel Cast, you can
Speaker 3: go to our Patreon aka Matreon. We have two bonus
Speaker 3: episodes that come out every month there on a fun
Speaker 3: little theme that we cook up and it's five dollars
Speaker 3: a month, and that's at patreon dot com slash Bechdel Cast,
Speaker 3: and our link tree is where you can find a
Speaker 3: lot of other goodies that we have going on.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and uh, with that, you can get our merch
Speaker 2: at tipable dot com slash v Bechdel Cast and we
Speaker 2: will be back, same time, same place next week. See
Speaker 2: you then, see you then bye bye.
Speaker 3: The Bechdel Cast is a production of iHeartMedia, hosted by
Speaker 3: Caitlin Dorante and Jamie Loftis, produced by Sophie Lichterman, edited
Speaker 3: by Mola Board. Our theme song was composed by Mike
Speaker 3: Kaplan with vocals by Katherine Volskrosenski. Our logo and merch
Speaker 3: is designed by Jamie Loftis and a special thanks to
Speaker 3: Aristotle Acevedo. For more information about the podcast, please visit
Speaker 3: linktree slash Bechdel Cast