WEBVTT - Inside the Mind of a Dictator 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:23.156 Pushkin from Pushkin Industries. This is Deep Background, the show 0:00:23.196 --> 0:00:26.156 where we explore the stories behind the stories in the news. 0:00:26.596 --> 0:00:30.156 I'm Noah Feldman. This week we're going to look at 0:00:30.156 --> 0:00:33.396 North Korea, and in particular the leader of North Korea, 0:00:33.596 --> 0:00:38.436 the fascinating and eccentric Kim Jong Lun. Who is Kim 0:00:38.516 --> 0:00:41.516 Jong Lun? We have this tendency to think of him 0:00:41.556 --> 0:00:46.556 as a kind of wild eyed, tyrant, ridiculous, pot bellied, 0:00:46.876 --> 0:00:49.876 more or less a child with an eccentric love of 0:00:49.916 --> 0:00:52.716 the Chicago Bulls, a love that's led him straight into 0:00:52.756 --> 0:00:56.476 the arms of the almost equally eccentric Dennis Rodman. At 0:00:56.476 --> 0:00:58.796 the same time, we also think of Kim Jong Lun 0:00:58.796 --> 0:01:02.596 as a dangerous guy. Tortures his own citizens, killed off 0:01:02.636 --> 0:01:06.116 his uncle, tortures Americans who happened to find their way 0:01:06.196 --> 0:01:10.636 into North Korea, and, perhaps most frighteningly, commands a nuclear 0:01:10.756 --> 0:01:14.756 arsenal and increasingly sophisticated missiles that have the range to 0:01:14.796 --> 0:01:18.796 attack Japan and maybe even someday the United States itself. 0:01:19.396 --> 0:01:22.116 Donald Trump is also interested in Kim Jong Lun, and 0:01:22.156 --> 0:01:24.156 in fact, it's hard to think of any other world 0:01:24.236 --> 0:01:27.916 leader except possibly Vladimir Putin who's gotten quite the amount 0:01:27.956 --> 0:01:31.516 of attention that Donald Trump has given to Kim Jong Un. 0:01:32.076 --> 0:01:35.196 On some level, Trump treats Kim Jong Un like a 0:01:35.276 --> 0:01:38.836 dangerous wild man. On the other hand, often it sounds 0:01:38.836 --> 0:01:41.076 like our present has a lot of love for Kim 0:01:41.156 --> 0:01:43.836 Jong Un. I just received a beautiful letter from Kim 0:01:43.916 --> 0:01:46.196 Jong Un. I can't tell you the letter, obviously, but 0:01:46.276 --> 0:01:49.156 it was a very her still, very warm, very nice letter. 0:01:49.196 --> 0:01:51.836 I appreciate it, and I'll say it again. I think 0:01:51.876 --> 0:01:56.956 that North Korea has tremendous potential. So is Kim Jong 0:01:57.076 --> 0:02:00.716 un genuinely crazy? Or is he crazy like a fox? 0:02:01.356 --> 0:02:04.356 Is he so clever that he's managed actually to play 0:02:04.436 --> 0:02:07.516 the president of the United States and to use rational 0:02:07.596 --> 0:02:11.076 strategy to gain control over his country, improve the condition 0:02:11.076 --> 0:02:14.836 of his citizens, and advance his interests on the world stage. 0:02:15.716 --> 0:02:18.596 These are questions that Anna Fifield from The Washington Post 0:02:18.636 --> 0:02:21.236 has been trying to make sense of in her new book, 0:02:21.756 --> 0:02:26.236 The Great Successor The Divinely Perfect Destiny of Brilliant Comrade 0:02:26.316 --> 0:02:29.916 Kim Jong Un. To understand the North Korean leader's rise 0:02:29.956 --> 0:02:32.996 to power, she started by looking at his childhood. When 0:02:33.036 --> 0:02:36.996 he was twelve years old, Kim Jong Un moved to Berne, 0:02:37.076 --> 0:02:40.036 the capital of Switzerland, where his older brother was already 0:02:40.036 --> 0:02:43.956 studying at a private English language school there. He joined 0:02:43.996 --> 0:02:47.196 him there. And you know, he had traveled in the 0:02:47.196 --> 0:02:50.716 outside world before. His mother had taken him to Disneyland 0:02:50.716 --> 0:02:53.476 in Paris and in Tokyo, you know, so he'd been 0:02:53.476 --> 0:02:56.036 out in the world. But this is as Disneyland as 0:02:56.076 --> 0:02:59.676 the world, true. Yeah, maybe just as fake as Pyongyang, 0:02:59.676 --> 0:03:03.676 but a different kind of fake. So he moved there 0:03:03.716 --> 0:03:07.836 to Switzerland, and this was a chance for him to 0:03:07.956 --> 0:03:10.276 experience a little bit of the world and kind of 0:03:10.596 --> 0:03:13.756 have more freedom because ironically, you know, even though he 0:03:13.916 --> 0:03:18.276 was this princeling in North Korea, he was very isolated there. 0:03:18.396 --> 0:03:23.556 He lived on these palatial compounds. He didn't even know 0:03:23.716 --> 0:03:27.396 his half siblings. He only had his older brother and 0:03:27.556 --> 0:03:30.996 old younger sister to play with. He didn't go to school. 0:03:31.076 --> 0:03:36.596 He had tutors exactly. He's like some you know, medici 0:03:36.876 --> 0:03:40.236 from Yeah. So he when he went to Switzerland, that 0:03:40.356 --> 0:03:41.916 was a chance for him to have a little bit 0:03:41.916 --> 0:03:46.516 of normality. So he went to school. He was said 0:03:46.556 --> 0:03:49.916 to be the son of North Korean diplomats. He went 0:03:49.956 --> 0:03:53.236 with his aunt and uncle who they were posed as 0:03:53.236 --> 0:03:57.196 his parents during that time. So, yeah, he played basketball 0:03:57.316 --> 0:04:00.876 every day after school, he sat through classes. You know, 0:04:00.916 --> 0:04:04.996 he struggled to learn German, but he did eventually become 0:04:04.996 --> 0:04:09.636 conversant in it and in English during that period, and 0:04:09.676 --> 0:04:12.436 he was able to have something of a normal life. 0:04:12.876 --> 0:04:15.596 And I actually managed to track down his aunt and 0:04:15.676 --> 0:04:19.676 uncle who looked after him during that period. They defected 0:04:19.716 --> 0:04:22.396 to the United States in nineteen ninety eight while they 0:04:22.396 --> 0:04:24.356 were looking after Kim Jong un. You have a great 0:04:24.556 --> 0:04:28.116 theory about why they did that. Tell us what that was. Yeah, 0:04:28.156 --> 0:04:31.556 so when I met them, they told me it was 0:04:31.836 --> 0:04:35.436 because partly because they wanted to be a bridge between 0:04:35.476 --> 0:04:38.636 North Korea and the United States, and partly because that 0:04:38.716 --> 0:04:41.356 sounds so an outside of that sounds absurd, and I 0:04:41.396 --> 0:04:43.796 take it you to me, it also sounded absurd, and 0:04:43.836 --> 0:04:47.836 I didn't believe it for a second. They also said 0:04:47.836 --> 0:04:50.036 they were trying to get medical assistance for Kim Jong 0:04:50.076 --> 0:04:53.276 UN's mother, who had been diagnosed with breast cancer, And 0:04:53.316 --> 0:04:55.916 I think that's really the truth. They saw that their 0:04:56.036 --> 0:04:58.796 linked to the regime, there the reason that they held 0:04:58.796 --> 0:05:01.836 this privileged status within the regime. You know, had a 0:05:01.916 --> 0:05:05.116 terminal illness, so mainly Kim Jong UN's mother. Kim Jong 0:05:05.156 --> 0:05:08.076 UN's mother was not formally speaking married to Kim Jong 0:05:08.156 --> 0:05:10.796 UN's father. No, she was a de facto First Lady 0:05:10.796 --> 0:05:14.156 of North Korea and very powerful within that regime. So 0:05:14.196 --> 0:05:17.036 I think they saw that their privileged status would not 0:05:17.156 --> 0:05:20.836 exist forever and they took the opportunity to escape. So 0:05:20.876 --> 0:05:22.956 they did, in the middle of the night, take a 0:05:22.996 --> 0:05:26.796 taxi to the American embassy and burn and ask for 0:05:26.876 --> 0:05:29.196 political asylum, and they were granted it. So they've been 0:05:29.196 --> 0:05:32.596 living here since nineteen ninety eight. Now in your book, 0:05:32.836 --> 0:05:36.916 you protect their identities, but you must do an amazing 0:05:36.996 --> 0:05:39.516 job of sleuthing to turn them up, and you do 0:05:39.596 --> 0:05:44.116 have some really fascinating detail about what they're doing with themselves. Yeah, 0:05:44.156 --> 0:05:46.636 that's right. So they arrived in the United States, was 0:05:46.756 --> 0:05:51.636 very limited English. They were obviously the CIA wanted to 0:05:51.636 --> 0:05:54.036 talk to them a lot at the beginning about what 0:05:54.076 --> 0:05:57.156 they knew about the family and the regime. But they 0:05:57.356 --> 0:06:01.756 quickly settled into life in America. By you know, they 0:06:01.756 --> 0:06:05.076 opened a dry cleaners, just like many Korean immigrants to 0:06:05.156 --> 0:06:09.076 the United States, and they quickly adapted to this life. 0:06:09.236 --> 0:06:13.156 They were working incredibly hard, their three children went into 0:06:13.236 --> 0:06:16.796 American schools and flourished. You know, they have all gone 0:06:16.796 --> 0:06:20.036 on and graduated from good colleges and are living normal 0:06:20.156 --> 0:06:24.316 kind of Korean immigrant to American dream lives. I mean, 0:06:24.356 --> 0:06:28.476 I can hardly imagine a better cover for people fleeing 0:06:28.916 --> 0:06:31.796 North Korea than mixing in with the community and opening 0:06:31.796 --> 0:06:34.996 a small business and working hard at it. Are they 0:06:35.036 --> 0:06:38.436 financially in need of doing that, do you think? I mean, 0:06:38.836 --> 0:06:41.076 they're working hard as part of their cover. They're working 0:06:41.076 --> 0:06:42.756 hard because they're broken. The only money they have is 0:06:42.796 --> 0:06:45.836 the money they're making from their drakening business. They're not broke, 0:06:45.996 --> 0:06:48.756 They are comfortable. They told me that they received two 0:06:48.836 --> 0:06:51.756 hundred thousand dollars from the CIA at the beginning to 0:06:51.796 --> 0:06:54.716 buy a house, and that they have not received any 0:06:54.716 --> 0:06:57.076 assistance since them. I mean, that's what they told me. 0:06:57.116 --> 0:06:59.676 That's all I have. But you know, that's incredible. I 0:06:59.716 --> 0:07:02.036 mean that could be the government's certainly a cheap yeah, 0:07:02.076 --> 0:07:04.356 well yeah, And but they have worked very hard and 0:07:04.396 --> 0:07:10.116 they have lived their own American dream. And presumably, although 0:07:10.156 --> 0:07:13.796 you're not disclosing their their identities, prisumably their identities are 0:07:13.876 --> 0:07:15.876 known to North Korean intelligence or do you think they're 0:07:15.916 --> 0:07:20.196 genuinely missed or skipped out by by North Korean intelligence. 0:07:20.636 --> 0:07:24.316 I imagine the North Koreans would know about them, but 0:07:24.396 --> 0:07:26.076 I don't know. I don't know if they know where 0:07:26.116 --> 0:07:28.396 they are. Yeah, I mean, and that was a big 0:07:28.396 --> 0:07:30.116 part of the reason that I went to great lengths 0:07:30.116 --> 0:07:33.676 to preserve their anonymity and not disclose exactly where they are, 0:07:34.036 --> 0:07:36.116 because yes, I do not want the North Koreans to 0:07:36.156 --> 0:07:38.756 find them the right and I hope you didn't even 0:07:38.916 --> 0:07:41.076 write it down in your notes on any electronic device. 0:07:41.236 --> 0:07:43.236 I did not in my brain all over which they 0:07:43.276 --> 0:07:47.236 can get into. So here's young Kim Jong un. You 0:07:47.316 --> 0:07:49.836 describe how he first went to the American school, and 0:07:49.836 --> 0:07:52.756 then after his aunt and uncle left, he actually switched 0:07:52.836 --> 0:07:57.316 to a public school, to a German speaking Swiss publics 0:07:57.436 --> 0:08:00.636 or state school. You say he had been isolated before 0:08:00.636 --> 0:08:02.316 and this was his chance to interact with other kids, 0:08:02.356 --> 0:08:04.796 But in your telling and from the people you spoke to, 0:08:04.876 --> 0:08:06.996 it sounds like he was actually a pretty lonely kid, 0:08:07.556 --> 0:08:11.076 even in Switzerland. Yeah. I think that he found it 0:08:11.156 --> 0:08:14.196 quite frustrating not to be able to communicate. So when 0:08:14.196 --> 0:08:17.556 he went into this German speaking school after his aunt 0:08:17.596 --> 0:08:20.076 and uncle had defected, and you know that was probably 0:08:20.316 --> 0:08:23.556 the coats. To avoid having to explain why his parents 0:08:23.996 --> 0:08:28.276 suddenly changed overnight. He went into a like a reception 0:08:28.476 --> 0:08:32.396 class where he was learning German, learning his lessons in 0:08:32.516 --> 0:08:34.876 very easy German at the beginning to adjust, and then 0:08:34.916 --> 0:08:39.036 he went into a normal classroom there, but he did 0:08:39.036 --> 0:08:43.756 seem to have some difficulties fitting in. Some former classmates 0:08:44.396 --> 0:08:46.996 described how he would lash out. He would kick their 0:08:46.996 --> 0:08:50.276 shins or spit at them and things in frustration. But 0:08:50.396 --> 0:08:53.116 then he did have a couple of good friends who 0:08:53.156 --> 0:08:55.876 he did invite back to his house, and one of them, 0:08:55.956 --> 0:08:59.636 who was the son of Portuguese immigrants, Kim Jong actually 0:08:59.716 --> 0:09:01.636 told him. He showed him a picture of Kim Jong 0:09:01.636 --> 0:09:04.076 il and said this is my father, and this kid 0:09:04.196 --> 0:09:06.276 laughed and said, yeah, right, your father as the leader 0:09:06.276 --> 0:09:08.836 of North Korea, and Kim Jong wan just let it go. 0:09:09.316 --> 0:09:13.436 And of course this classmate Frand discovered some years later 0:09:13.476 --> 0:09:16.996 that Kim Jong Gond really was telling the truth. So 0:09:17.036 --> 0:09:20.716 it's not a normal childhood by any measure, even though 0:09:20.796 --> 0:09:23.316 it may have been comparatively more normal than it was 0:09:23.556 --> 0:09:25.116 for Kim Jong Gond. Where he lived at home in 0:09:25.156 --> 0:09:28.956 North Korea. Yeah, nothing about his childhood was anywhere And 0:09:29.356 --> 0:09:32.116 what his aunt told me was that from that day, 0:09:32.196 --> 0:09:36.556 his eighth birthday, when he was unveiled as the future 0:09:36.636 --> 0:09:40.076 leader of North Korea, it had just become impossible for 0:09:40.196 --> 0:09:42.636 him to live a normal life. And some of the 0:09:42.716 --> 0:09:45.876 kids who knew him in Switzerland said they did find 0:09:45.916 --> 0:09:48.956 it kind of weird and surprising that when he was 0:09:48.996 --> 0:09:52.036 out on the basketball court after school there would often 0:09:52.116 --> 0:09:56.156 be this little lineup of Korean adults sitting in deck chairs, 0:09:56.716 --> 0:10:00.676 cheering and clapping excessively for him whenever he scored a 0:10:00.796 --> 0:10:03.156 point in the game. Can I actually ask about the 0:10:03.156 --> 0:10:05.196 basketball because that will turn out to be very important 0:10:05.516 --> 0:10:08.996 later on. His obsession with the Chicago Bulls in particular, 0:10:09.556 --> 0:10:12.076 who were the greatest team playing basketball at the time 0:10:12.116 --> 0:10:13.956 that he was a kid, turned out to be relevant 0:10:13.916 --> 0:10:16.796 to his later career and will come to that. But 0:10:16.996 --> 0:10:20.476 why basketball, first of all, any sense of why this 0:10:20.796 --> 0:10:24.596 archetypally American sport, which admittedly was globalizing very much in 0:10:24.596 --> 0:10:27.116 this period of time, in part through the avenue of 0:10:27.116 --> 0:10:30.236 the Bulls and their great star Michael Jordan. But he 0:10:30.516 --> 0:10:33.316 thought on why he became obsessed with basketball and the 0:10:33.396 --> 0:10:36.116 other question I'm dying to know is was he any 0:10:36.156 --> 0:10:38.756 good at it? It's not that easy to play basketball, 0:10:38.836 --> 0:10:42.316 especially if you're a short and slightly round child. I mean, 0:10:42.356 --> 0:10:43.996 there's loving it and then there's loving to play at 0:10:44.036 --> 0:10:46.516 Those aren't exactly the same thing. Yeah, right, So it's 0:10:46.516 --> 0:10:49.116 a funny story how he became interested and there. When 0:10:49.116 --> 0:10:52.316 he was a child, he was really obsessed with machines 0:10:52.436 --> 0:10:57.276 like planes and anything with an engine. Boys, Yeah, exactly. 0:10:57.276 --> 0:11:00.596 He loved to make model airplanes and fly them and 0:11:00.636 --> 0:11:03.396 things like that. But his mother became very concerned that 0:11:03.476 --> 0:11:06.516 he was so obsessive about this. You know, he would 0:11:06.596 --> 0:11:10.076 ring he's making a model ship. He would ring an 0:11:10.076 --> 0:11:13.956 actual naval engineer from the North Korean People's Army to 0:11:14.036 --> 0:11:16.476 ask a question at three o'clock in the morning. You know, 0:11:16.516 --> 0:11:20.596 this is his sense of entitlement, and the admiral would 0:11:20.596 --> 0:11:23.676 answer the phone. Can be hard to read those instructions. 0:11:24.396 --> 0:11:27.316 And so his mother was concerned that he was becoming 0:11:27.396 --> 0:11:29.876 too obsessive with this, and she wanted to get him 0:11:29.876 --> 0:11:33.436 into sport. And there is this Korean belief, you know, 0:11:33.556 --> 0:11:36.236 South Korean, North Korea, to this day that if you 0:11:36.316 --> 0:11:40.836 play basketball you'll grow taller, and so his mother channeled 0:11:40.916 --> 0:11:44.516 him into basketball. He actually is a few inches taller 0:11:44.516 --> 0:11:46.436 than his father was, so you know, who knows, maybe 0:11:46.436 --> 0:11:49.996 I worked a little, but so she encouraged this, and 0:11:50.156 --> 0:11:53.316 Kim Jong un just basically switched from one obsession to 0:11:53.356 --> 0:11:56.556 the other. So he you know, he had all the gear, 0:11:56.756 --> 0:12:00.596 all the spalleding, you know, official NBA balls. He used 0:12:00.636 --> 0:12:03.156 to sleep with his basketball also, like a lot of 0:12:03.196 --> 0:12:05.876 American kids, right, absolutely, I slap was mine, you know 0:12:05.916 --> 0:12:08.156 what I mean? You know that very characteristic of a 0:12:08.236 --> 0:12:10.556 kid who just really loved was a sport. Yeah, that's right. 0:12:10.596 --> 0:12:12.836 And so then he would go out at every opportunity 0:12:13.156 --> 0:12:17.076 he had a basketball hope at his apartment building where 0:12:17.116 --> 0:12:19.836 he was, he would go out to the nearby high 0:12:19.876 --> 0:12:22.756 school and play with other kids every single day after school. 0:12:22.836 --> 0:12:25.116 Joe may have been his only form of social interaction 0:12:25.196 --> 0:12:28.636 that wasn't mediated through language. Yeah, exactly, no lang. I 0:12:28.676 --> 0:12:31.316 mean he was trying. Yeah, but you don't really need 0:12:31.316 --> 0:12:34.076 to speak language. Pay basketball. It enables you to communicate 0:12:34.196 --> 0:12:35.716 in some way through that. That's what you know, the 0:12:35.796 --> 0:12:37.116 NBA would like us to think of that, and I 0:12:37.116 --> 0:12:38.916 think that is sort of true. Yeah, And so I 0:12:38.956 --> 0:12:41.756 think he was not exceptionally good or even very good 0:12:41.796 --> 0:12:44.156 at that time. He did love it, okay, I think 0:12:44.156 --> 0:12:46.996 he was Okay, he wasn't unspeakably bad. No, he put 0:12:47.036 --> 0:12:49.716 in a lot of practice at that time, and he 0:12:49.836 --> 0:12:53.116 really is a really serious fan, as we would come 0:12:53.156 --> 0:12:55.756 to see later. You know, the very first time that 0:12:55.836 --> 0:13:00.076 Dennis Rodman went to North Korea, he took three Harlem 0:13:00.116 --> 0:13:03.916 Globetrotters with him because his people thought, you know, the 0:13:04.076 --> 0:13:07.276 Harlem Globetrotters with all their on court antics would be 0:13:07.436 --> 0:13:11.356 very entertaining and very accessible for North Korean people. Kim 0:13:11.436 --> 0:13:15.116 Jongan hated it. He wanted a serious game. So the 0:13:15.276 --> 0:13:19.076 next time Dennis Rodman went, he took these retired all 0:13:19.116 --> 0:13:22.876 stars because Kim jong n wanted a real, proper game 0:13:22.956 --> 0:13:25.236 to play there. So he is really serious about this, 0:13:25.276 --> 0:13:28.636 and he does follow it very closely. Say something about 0:13:28.676 --> 0:13:31.956 the weird way by which Dennis Rodman, of all of 0:13:31.996 --> 0:13:35.676 the players of the Chicago Bulls from the era where 0:13:35.716 --> 0:13:38.156 Kim Jongan was a kid and a fan, ended up 0:13:38.236 --> 0:13:40.396 being the person you mentioned in the book that the 0:13:40.516 --> 0:13:44.756 CIA actually thought of sending Dennis Rodman in the first place. 0:13:45.156 --> 0:13:46.676 I don't know how you came across that that's a 0:13:46.676 --> 0:13:49.076 fascinating thing. I had never read that anywhere else before, 0:13:49.156 --> 0:13:51.796 but that it didn't work, and yet Rodman still ended 0:13:51.876 --> 0:13:54.516 up going. How did that happen? Yeah, that's right. So 0:13:54.676 --> 0:13:58.756 I think when Kim Jongan took over, American intelligence agents 0:13:58.796 --> 0:14:02.076 and you know, administration officials saw an opportunity to try 0:14:02.116 --> 0:14:06.636 to engage this new leader. So the first wink actually 0:14:06.676 --> 0:14:10.796 knew about it, though, was when Vice Media took Dennis Rodman. 0:14:10.876 --> 0:14:14.196 They had initially tried to convince Michael Jordan, but for 0:14:14.236 --> 0:14:16.316 some reason he was not so keen on going to 0:14:16.356 --> 0:14:19.596 North Korea. They got Dennis Rodman instead. But this was 0:14:20.436 --> 0:14:22.916 down on his luck and needed the money, exactly happy 0:14:22.956 --> 0:14:27.716 to go. But this idea did not originate with Vice. 0:14:28.436 --> 0:14:31.916 First of all, the CIA had talked about taking a 0:14:31.996 --> 0:14:34.916 Chicago ball or sending a Chicago bull to North Korea, 0:14:34.996 --> 0:14:37.156 and they had settled on Dennis Rodman as well, and 0:14:37.236 --> 0:14:39.756 for whatever reason, that didn't work out. But at the 0:14:39.836 --> 0:14:42.796 same time and the last years of the Obama in 0:14:42.836 --> 0:14:46.796 the middle years actually of the Obama administration, outside experts 0:14:46.796 --> 0:14:49.236 were going into the Oval office and one of them 0:14:49.236 --> 0:14:53.236 actually suggested that they take advantage of the Chicago Bull 0:14:53.436 --> 0:14:57.196 fascination and try to, you know, make a bridge that way. 0:14:57.236 --> 0:15:00.996 So it didn't go anywhere that Obama, very excellent basketball player, 0:15:01.596 --> 0:15:04.076 did not appeal to for a long time. Yeah, yeah, 0:15:04.116 --> 0:15:06.236 but it did not appeal to him at that time. 0:15:06.396 --> 0:15:09.076 It took Dennis Rodman and Vice to make that happen. 0:15:09.276 --> 0:15:11.996 Once you brought up Vice and Dennis Rodman, I just 0:15:11.996 --> 0:15:14.996 have to ask you about the surreal scenes that you 0:15:15.076 --> 0:15:18.796 describe in your book on the trip that Vice put 0:15:18.836 --> 0:15:22.836 together at which Rodman went. None of it sounds like 0:15:23.036 --> 0:15:26.436 ordinary journalism. None of it makes Kim Jong un sound 0:15:26.476 --> 0:15:30.836 like an ordinary head of state. Tell me about how 0:15:30.876 --> 0:15:35.676 that happened and about the weirdness that ensued. Yeah, so 0:15:36.076 --> 0:15:38.956 VISs did come up with this idea to take a 0:15:39.036 --> 0:15:43.236 Chicago Bull. They got Rodman, and the North Koreans responded 0:15:43.956 --> 0:15:47.916 without really knowing that Vice News wasn't your standard media 0:15:48.036 --> 0:15:51.356 organization at their time, but they had told their leader 0:15:51.396 --> 0:15:54.676 that Dennis Rodman wanted to go, and he accepted and 0:15:54.756 --> 0:15:58.556 off they went. And yes, there was the basketball side 0:15:58.556 --> 0:16:01.556 of things, but also there was a lot of partying 0:16:01.636 --> 0:16:04.716 that went on during these trips. So it sounds like 0:16:04.796 --> 0:16:07.836 everybody was drunk or drugged out of their minds. Yeah. 0:16:07.876 --> 0:16:10.716 In fact, you know, one stage during the course of 0:16:10.756 --> 0:16:14.316 the evening on that Vice trip, Dennis Rodman had to 0:16:14.356 --> 0:16:17.516 tell the Vice entourage, you know, the Vice team, to 0:16:17.516 --> 0:16:19.636 tone it down a little. They were so out of control. 0:16:19.676 --> 0:16:20.876 And one of them said to me, you know, we 0:16:20.996 --> 0:16:23.876 knew things were bad when Dennis Rodman was telling us 0:16:23.916 --> 0:16:26.796 to cool it. Yeah. There was a lot of drinking. 0:16:27.356 --> 0:16:31.396 There was karaoke. Apparently Kim Jong un sang some James 0:16:31.396 --> 0:16:35.636 Brown get on up during this evening. One of the 0:16:35.796 --> 0:16:38.796 people who was on the Vice team was playing the saxophone. 0:16:39.716 --> 0:16:43.116 Kim Jong UN's uncle, uncle Jong Song Tech, the one 0:16:43.196 --> 0:16:48.196 he would later have executed, was there that night, and 0:16:48.236 --> 0:16:51.356 there were a lot of quite brazen toasts. I mean, 0:16:51.436 --> 0:16:56.076 Dennis Rodman stood up and said something about how Kim 0:16:56.156 --> 0:17:00.596 Jong UN's father and grandfather had done some screwed up things. 0:17:00.596 --> 0:17:03.116 I'll paraphrase there. Can I see what says in your 0:17:03.116 --> 0:17:07.636 book your father and grandfather did some fucked up shit 0:17:07.956 --> 0:17:12.436 he did, and everybody was holding their breath. And to 0:17:12.476 --> 0:17:16.076 get away with saying that to the leader of North 0:17:16.156 --> 0:17:19.556 Korea and walk away cleanly, what I don't know is 0:17:19.596 --> 0:17:22.956 how the Korean translated translated that sentence you purely one 0:17:22.956 --> 0:17:25.436 would hope, I would hope. Yeah, although you were saying 0:17:25.436 --> 0:17:28.356 that Kim jonglen can speak English. Yeah, he seems to 0:17:28.356 --> 0:17:30.636 be able to understand some English. Who we've seen him 0:17:30.636 --> 0:17:32.156 when he was talking to Donald Trump. He seemed to 0:17:32.156 --> 0:17:34.236 be nodding and getting the jokes first. I don't know 0:17:34.276 --> 0:17:36.156 how his curse words are and whether he got that, 0:17:36.876 --> 0:17:40.516 but anyway, early in one's education to speak English on 0:17:40.516 --> 0:17:43.716 the basketball Yeah, yeah, you're right. But anyway, once it 0:17:43.836 --> 0:17:47.516 was translated, he laughed and everybody breathed aside of relief, 0:17:47.516 --> 0:17:50.716 and on they continued. So I think you know the 0:17:50.796 --> 0:17:53.156 story is of that trip, and as well the vice 0:17:53.196 --> 0:17:56.076 film that they made out of it contributed to a 0:17:56.156 --> 0:17:58.956 kind of deepening of the perception that Kim jongn was 0:17:58.996 --> 0:18:00.276 not the kind of person who was going to be 0:18:00.316 --> 0:18:06.356 able to consolidate power and then actually govern as essentially 0:18:06.596 --> 0:18:09.516 a monarch, because once you've got not one, not too 0:18:09.596 --> 0:18:13.156 but three rounds of succession, you can call it a dictatorship, 0:18:13.196 --> 0:18:16.236 but it has monarchic components. And you make a great 0:18:16.276 --> 0:18:19.796 point in the book that there's an imagined bloodline that 0:18:19.956 --> 0:18:24.276 takes all of the Kim Jong's family and takes them 0:18:24.276 --> 0:18:28.116 back to a mythical birth on Mount Pectu, which is 0:18:28.116 --> 0:18:31.516 a kind of site of kings. So it really really 0:18:31.596 --> 0:18:35.676 is monarchic, and I guess I want to turn now 0:18:35.796 --> 0:18:38.436 to this question of how he actually pulled it off 0:18:39.036 --> 0:18:43.036 and surprised everybody. So let me start by asking you 0:18:43.556 --> 0:18:47.396 whether you think that it's to do with Kim jongon's 0:18:47.476 --> 0:18:51.956 own personal qualities ultimately that have enabled him to consolidate power, 0:18:52.516 --> 0:18:55.916 or whether it's really a product of a recognition in 0:18:55.956 --> 0:18:59.236 the senior echelons of the regime, not so senior as 0:18:59.236 --> 0:19:02.796 to be executed or assassinated, but just below that that 0:19:03.516 --> 0:19:05.916 the monarchy works better with a figurehead at the top 0:19:05.956 --> 0:19:08.476 of it, and they're better off keeping him than they 0:19:08.476 --> 0:19:11.276 would be with the uncertainty and disorder that would follow 0:19:11.436 --> 0:19:16.116 his removal. Yeah, I think he has shown a natural 0:19:16.156 --> 0:19:18.716 aptitude for this. There is a reason why he was 0:19:18.796 --> 0:19:23.676 the son who was chosen as the successor. There weren't 0:19:23.716 --> 0:19:26.636 so many choices, no, but there were three, and the 0:19:26.636 --> 0:19:29.716 third son should have been the last choice, right, but 0:19:29.876 --> 0:19:34.196 he rose to the top. You know, he very shrewdly 0:19:34.996 --> 0:19:38.436 used that North Korean brains trust the people who had 0:19:38.516 --> 0:19:42.276 been supporting his grandfather and then his father. You know, 0:19:42.676 --> 0:19:45.316 if we look at the man who walked around the 0:19:45.396 --> 0:19:48.436 hearse at his father's funeral with Kim Jong On at 0:19:48.436 --> 0:19:52.716 the front of the car, those people had been propping 0:19:52.796 --> 0:19:56.956 up this regime forever they were They were the regime, 0:19:57.116 --> 0:20:00.956 and Kim Jong iarn had their support. They helped in 0:20:00.996 --> 0:20:05.556 the transition process. They made sure that power remained with him, 0:20:06.036 --> 0:20:08.916 and once they had served their purpose, he got rid 0:20:08.956 --> 0:20:12.996 of because these were the powerful people who had their 0:20:13.036 --> 0:20:18.196 own potential factions and power bases and could theoretically pose 0:20:18.236 --> 0:20:21.316 a challenge to him. So there was the head of 0:20:21.356 --> 0:20:25.396 the Korean People's Army had helped Kim Jong An, had 0:20:25.396 --> 0:20:29.276 helped his father. He was disappeared and never seen again. 0:20:30.076 --> 0:20:32.756 And then we had the propaganda chief, the guy who 0:20:32.796 --> 0:20:35.996 was in charge of perpetuating all of this mythology about 0:20:35.996 --> 0:20:39.636 the bloodline and the exceptional gun skills. At the age 0:20:39.636 --> 0:20:43.356 of five, he also disappeared from view, never seen again. 0:20:43.956 --> 0:20:47.316 Uncle Jong Song Tech, who was close to his older 0:20:47.676 --> 0:20:50.636 Kim Jongn's older half brother Kim Jong nam, and who 0:20:50.676 --> 0:20:54.076 had been very much in charge of economic relations with 0:20:54.196 --> 0:20:56.876 China and appears to have been kind of a reformist 0:20:56.916 --> 0:21:01.836 minded person, very charismatic, gregarious character. I've heard so many 0:21:01.876 --> 0:21:04.796 stories about his drinking and his karaoke skills and things. 0:21:05.236 --> 0:21:10.076 He had a really sizeable power base. He is. He 0:21:10.156 --> 0:21:13.996 doesn't just disappear from view. He is hauled out of 0:21:13.996 --> 0:21:18.636 a politbureau meeting very publicly. There's this long dire tribe 0:21:18.676 --> 0:21:23.356 against him of like Shakespearean kind of rhetoric, calling him 0:21:23.356 --> 0:21:27.956 a thrice cursed treacherous being, and then he has executed 0:21:28.316 --> 0:21:32.156 a few days later. If you are somebody powerful in 0:21:32.196 --> 0:21:34.956 that regime and you see all of these other people 0:21:36.036 --> 0:21:39.516 humiliated and executed in this way, you are going to 0:21:39.596 --> 0:21:42.676 think twice about questioning this guy and challenging this guy. 0:21:43.156 --> 0:21:47.956 So partly it's through this fear and Kim Jong uns 0:21:47.956 --> 0:21:51.156 showing that nobody is safe, not even his own family members, 0:21:51.476 --> 0:21:54.756 that he's been able to look after this regime. But 0:21:54.836 --> 0:21:57.116 the other part of it is that he has made 0:21:57.156 --> 0:22:00.556 sure that the people around him, the people who keep 0:22:00.596 --> 0:22:04.236 him in power, have become rich under him. They are 0:22:04.316 --> 0:22:08.756 living a life much better than ever before. They have 0:22:08.876 --> 0:22:12.036 been able to use their positions in a very corrupt 0:22:12.116 --> 0:22:14.396 way to earn a lot of money on the side 0:22:14.796 --> 0:22:19.396 through business dealings and you know, making money during their travels. 0:22:20.076 --> 0:22:24.116 So those people are living a better life than ever before. 0:22:24.436 --> 0:22:29.156 So through you, through loyalty, developing this loyalty and keeping 0:22:29.196 --> 0:22:32.676 everybody fearful, he's managed to keep it together. So you're 0:22:32.676 --> 0:22:35.476 describing what sounds to me like a two track strategy. 0:22:35.996 --> 0:22:40.196 The first track is rely on the people who think 0:22:40.196 --> 0:22:42.916 they need you to get into power and to consolidate 0:22:42.956 --> 0:22:45.876 your power, and then one by one knock them off. 0:22:46.156 --> 0:22:47.996 You call that the Richard the third strategy, as long 0:22:48.036 --> 0:22:51.396