1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:23,156 Speaker 1: Pushkin from Pushkin Industries. This is Deep Background, the show 2 00:00:23,196 --> 00:00:26,156 Speaker 1: where we explore the stories behind the stories in the news. 3 00:00:26,596 --> 00:00:30,156 Speaker 1: I'm Noah Feldman. This week we're going to look at 4 00:00:30,156 --> 00:00:33,396 Speaker 1: North Korea, and in particular the leader of North Korea, 5 00:00:33,596 --> 00:00:38,436 Speaker 1: the fascinating and eccentric Kim Jong Lun. Who is Kim 6 00:00:38,516 --> 00:00:41,516 Speaker 1: Jong Lun? We have this tendency to think of him 7 00:00:41,556 --> 00:00:46,556 Speaker 1: as a kind of wild eyed, tyrant, ridiculous, pot bellied, 8 00:00:46,876 --> 00:00:49,876 Speaker 1: more or less a child with an eccentric love of 9 00:00:49,916 --> 00:00:52,716 Speaker 1: the Chicago Bulls, a love that's led him straight into 10 00:00:52,756 --> 00:00:56,476 Speaker 1: the arms of the almost equally eccentric Dennis Rodman. At 11 00:00:56,476 --> 00:00:58,796 Speaker 1: the same time, we also think of Kim Jong Lun 12 00:00:58,796 --> 00:01:02,596 Speaker 1: as a dangerous guy. Tortures his own citizens, killed off 13 00:01:02,636 --> 00:01:06,116 Speaker 1: his uncle, tortures Americans who happened to find their way 14 00:01:06,196 --> 00:01:10,636 Speaker 1: into North Korea, and, perhaps most frighteningly, commands a nuclear 15 00:01:10,756 --> 00:01:14,756 Speaker 1: arsenal and increasingly sophisticated missiles that have the range to 16 00:01:14,796 --> 00:01:18,796 Speaker 1: attack Japan and maybe even someday the United States itself. 17 00:01:19,396 --> 00:01:22,116 Speaker 1: Donald Trump is also interested in Kim Jong Lun, and 18 00:01:22,156 --> 00:01:24,156 Speaker 1: in fact, it's hard to think of any other world 19 00:01:24,236 --> 00:01:27,916 Speaker 1: leader except possibly Vladimir Putin who's gotten quite the amount 20 00:01:27,956 --> 00:01:31,516 Speaker 1: of attention that Donald Trump has given to Kim Jong Un. 21 00:01:32,076 --> 00:01:35,196 Speaker 1: On some level, Trump treats Kim Jong Un like a 22 00:01:35,276 --> 00:01:38,836 Speaker 1: dangerous wild man. On the other hand, often it sounds 23 00:01:38,836 --> 00:01:41,076 Speaker 1: like our present has a lot of love for Kim 24 00:01:41,156 --> 00:01:43,836 Speaker 1: Jong Un. I just received a beautiful letter from Kim 25 00:01:43,916 --> 00:01:46,196 Speaker 1: Jong Un. I can't tell you the letter, obviously, but 26 00:01:46,276 --> 00:01:49,156 Speaker 1: it was a very her still, very warm, very nice letter. 27 00:01:49,196 --> 00:01:51,836 Speaker 1: I appreciate it, and I'll say it again. I think 28 00:01:51,876 --> 00:01:56,956 Speaker 1: that North Korea has tremendous potential. So is Kim Jong 29 00:01:57,076 --> 00:02:00,716 Speaker 1: un genuinely crazy? Or is he crazy like a fox? 30 00:02:01,356 --> 00:02:04,356 Speaker 1: Is he so clever that he's managed actually to play 31 00:02:04,436 --> 00:02:07,516 Speaker 1: the president of the United States and to use rational 32 00:02:07,596 --> 00:02:11,076 Speaker 1: strategy to gain control over his country, improve the condition 33 00:02:11,076 --> 00:02:14,836 Speaker 1: of his citizens, and advance his interests on the world stage. 34 00:02:15,716 --> 00:02:18,596 Speaker 1: These are questions that Anna Fifield from The Washington Post 35 00:02:18,636 --> 00:02:21,236 Speaker 1: has been trying to make sense of in her new book, 36 00:02:21,756 --> 00:02:26,236 Speaker 1: The Great Successor The Divinely Perfect Destiny of Brilliant Comrade 37 00:02:26,316 --> 00:02:29,916 Speaker 1: Kim Jong Un. To understand the North Korean leader's rise 38 00:02:29,956 --> 00:02:32,996 Speaker 1: to power, she started by looking at his childhood. When 39 00:02:33,036 --> 00:02:36,996 Speaker 1: he was twelve years old, Kim Jong Un moved to Berne, 40 00:02:37,076 --> 00:02:40,036 Speaker 1: the capital of Switzerland, where his older brother was already 41 00:02:40,036 --> 00:02:43,956 Speaker 1: studying at a private English language school there. He joined 42 00:02:43,996 --> 00:02:47,196 Speaker 1: him there. And you know, he had traveled in the 43 00:02:47,196 --> 00:02:50,716 Speaker 1: outside world before. His mother had taken him to Disneyland 44 00:02:50,716 --> 00:02:53,476 Speaker 1: in Paris and in Tokyo, you know, so he'd been 45 00:02:53,476 --> 00:02:56,036 Speaker 1: out in the world. But this is as Disneyland as 46 00:02:56,076 --> 00:02:59,676 Speaker 1: the world, true. Yeah, maybe just as fake as Pyongyang, 47 00:02:59,676 --> 00:03:03,676 Speaker 1: but a different kind of fake. So he moved there 48 00:03:03,716 --> 00:03:07,836 Speaker 1: to Switzerland, and this was a chance for him to 49 00:03:07,956 --> 00:03:10,276 Speaker 1: experience a little bit of the world and kind of 50 00:03:10,596 --> 00:03:13,756 Speaker 1: have more freedom because ironically, you know, even though he 51 00:03:13,916 --> 00:03:18,276 Speaker 1: was this princeling in North Korea, he was very isolated there. 52 00:03:18,396 --> 00:03:23,556 Speaker 1: He lived on these palatial compounds. He didn't even know 53 00:03:23,716 --> 00:03:27,396 Speaker 1: his half siblings. He only had his older brother and 54 00:03:27,556 --> 00:03:30,996 Speaker 1: old younger sister to play with. He didn't go to school. 55 00:03:31,076 --> 00:03:36,596 Speaker 1: He had tutors exactly. He's like some you know, medici 56 00:03:36,876 --> 00:03:40,236 Speaker 1: from Yeah. So he when he went to Switzerland, that 57 00:03:40,356 --> 00:03:41,916 Speaker 1: was a chance for him to have a little bit 58 00:03:41,916 --> 00:03:46,516 Speaker 1: of normality. So he went to school. He was said 59 00:03:46,556 --> 00:03:49,916 Speaker 1: to be the son of North Korean diplomats. He went 60 00:03:49,956 --> 00:03:53,236 Speaker 1: with his aunt and uncle who they were posed as 61 00:03:53,236 --> 00:03:57,196 Speaker 1: his parents during that time. So, yeah, he played basketball 62 00:03:57,316 --> 00:04:00,876 Speaker 1: every day after school, he sat through classes. You know, 63 00:04:00,916 --> 00:04:04,996 Speaker 1: he struggled to learn German, but he did eventually become 64 00:04:04,996 --> 00:04:09,636 Speaker 1: conversant in it and in English during that period, and 65 00:04:09,676 --> 00:04:12,436 Speaker 1: he was able to have something of a normal life. 66 00:04:12,876 --> 00:04:15,596 Speaker 1: And I actually managed to track down his aunt and 67 00:04:15,676 --> 00:04:19,676 Speaker 1: uncle who looked after him during that period. They defected 68 00:04:19,716 --> 00:04:22,396 Speaker 1: to the United States in nineteen ninety eight while they 69 00:04:22,396 --> 00:04:24,356 Speaker 1: were looking after Kim Jong un. You have a great 70 00:04:24,556 --> 00:04:28,116 Speaker 1: theory about why they did that. Tell us what that was. Yeah, 71 00:04:28,156 --> 00:04:31,556 Speaker 1: so when I met them, they told me it was 72 00:04:31,836 --> 00:04:35,436 Speaker 1: because partly because they wanted to be a bridge between 73 00:04:35,476 --> 00:04:38,636 Speaker 1: North Korea and the United States, and partly because that 74 00:04:38,716 --> 00:04:41,356 Speaker 1: sounds so an outside of that sounds absurd, and I 75 00:04:41,396 --> 00:04:43,796 Speaker 1: take it you to me, it also sounded absurd, and 76 00:04:43,836 --> 00:04:47,836 Speaker 1: I didn't believe it for a second. They also said 77 00:04:47,836 --> 00:04:50,036 Speaker 1: they were trying to get medical assistance for Kim Jong 78 00:04:50,076 --> 00:04:53,276 Speaker 1: UN's mother, who had been diagnosed with breast cancer, And 79 00:04:53,316 --> 00:04:55,916 Speaker 1: I think that's really the truth. They saw that their 80 00:04:56,036 --> 00:04:58,796 Speaker 1: linked to the regime, there the reason that they held 81 00:04:58,796 --> 00:05:01,836 Speaker 1: this privileged status within the regime. You know, had a 82 00:05:01,916 --> 00:05:05,116 Speaker 1: terminal illness, so mainly Kim Jong UN's mother. Kim Jong 83 00:05:05,156 --> 00:05:08,076 Speaker 1: UN's mother was not formally speaking married to Kim Jong 84 00:05:08,156 --> 00:05:10,796 Speaker 1: UN's father. No, she was a de facto First Lady 85 00:05:10,796 --> 00:05:14,156 Speaker 1: of North Korea and very powerful within that regime. So 86 00:05:14,196 --> 00:05:17,036 Speaker 1: I think they saw that their privileged status would not 87 00:05:17,156 --> 00:05:20,836 Speaker 1: exist forever and they took the opportunity to escape. So 88 00:05:20,876 --> 00:05:22,956 Speaker 1: they did, in the middle of the night, take a 89 00:05:22,996 --> 00:05:26,796 Speaker 1: taxi to the American embassy and burn and ask for 90 00:05:26,876 --> 00:05:29,196 Speaker 1: political asylum, and they were granted it. So they've been 91 00:05:29,196 --> 00:05:32,596 Speaker 1: living here since nineteen ninety eight. Now in your book, 92 00:05:32,836 --> 00:05:36,916 Speaker 1: you protect their identities, but you must do an amazing 93 00:05:36,996 --> 00:05:39,516 Speaker 1: job of sleuthing to turn them up, and you do 94 00:05:39,596 --> 00:05:44,116 Speaker 1: have some really fascinating detail about what they're doing with themselves. Yeah, 95 00:05:44,156 --> 00:05:46,636 Speaker 1: that's right. So they arrived in the United States, was 96 00:05:46,756 --> 00:05:51,636 Speaker 1: very limited English. They were obviously the CIA wanted to 97 00:05:51,636 --> 00:05:54,036 Speaker 1: talk to them a lot at the beginning about what 98 00:05:54,076 --> 00:05:57,156 Speaker 1: they knew about the family and the regime. But they 99 00:05:57,356 --> 00:06:01,756 Speaker 1: quickly settled into life in America. By you know, they 100 00:06:01,756 --> 00:06:05,076 Speaker 1: opened a dry cleaners, just like many Korean immigrants to 101 00:06:05,156 --> 00:06:09,076 Speaker 1: the United States, and they quickly adapted to this life. 102 00:06:09,236 --> 00:06:13,156 Speaker 1: They were working incredibly hard, their three children went into 103 00:06:13,236 --> 00:06:16,796 Speaker 1: American schools and flourished. You know, they have all gone 104 00:06:16,796 --> 00:06:20,036 Speaker 1: on and graduated from good colleges and are living normal 105 00:06:20,156 --> 00:06:24,316 Speaker 1: kind of Korean immigrant to American dream lives. I mean, 106 00:06:24,356 --> 00:06:28,476 Speaker 1: I can hardly imagine a better cover for people fleeing 107 00:06:28,916 --> 00:06:31,796 Speaker 1: North Korea than mixing in with the community and opening 108 00:06:31,796 --> 00:06:34,996 Speaker 1: a small business and working hard at it. Are they 109 00:06:35,036 --> 00:06:38,436 Speaker 1: financially in need of doing that, do you think? I mean, 110 00:06:38,836 --> 00:06:41,076 Speaker 1: they're working hard as part of their cover. They're working 111 00:06:41,076 --> 00:06:42,756 Speaker 1: hard because they're broken. The only money they have is 112 00:06:42,796 --> 00:06:45,836 Speaker 1: the money they're making from their drakening business. They're not broke, 113 00:06:45,996 --> 00:06:48,756 Speaker 1: They are comfortable. They told me that they received two 114 00:06:48,836 --> 00:06:51,756 Speaker 1: hundred thousand dollars from the CIA at the beginning to 115 00:06:51,796 --> 00:06:54,716 Speaker 1: buy a house, and that they have not received any 116 00:06:54,716 --> 00:06:57,076 Speaker 1: assistance since them. I mean, that's what they told me. 117 00:06:57,116 --> 00:06:59,676 Speaker 1: That's all I have. But you know, that's incredible. I 118 00:06:59,716 --> 00:07:02,036 Speaker 1: mean that could be the government's certainly a cheap yeah, 119 00:07:02,076 --> 00:07:04,356 Speaker 1: well yeah, And but they have worked very hard and 120 00:07:04,396 --> 00:07:10,116 Speaker 1: they have lived their own American dream. And presumably, although 121 00:07:10,156 --> 00:07:13,796 Speaker 1: you're not disclosing their their identities, prisumably their identities are 122 00:07:13,876 --> 00:07:15,876 Speaker 1: known to North Korean intelligence or do you think they're 123 00:07:15,916 --> 00:07:20,196 Speaker 1: genuinely missed or skipped out by by North Korean intelligence. 124 00:07:20,636 --> 00:07:24,316 Speaker 1: I imagine the North Koreans would know about them, but 125 00:07:24,396 --> 00:07:26,076 Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know if they know where 126 00:07:26,116 --> 00:07:28,396 Speaker 1: they are. Yeah, I mean, and that was a big 127 00:07:28,396 --> 00:07:30,116 Speaker 1: part of the reason that I went to great lengths 128 00:07:30,116 --> 00:07:33,676 Speaker 1: to preserve their anonymity and not disclose exactly where they are, 129 00:07:34,036 --> 00:07:36,116 Speaker 1: because yes, I do not want the North Koreans to 130 00:07:36,156 --> 00:07:38,756 Speaker 1: find them the right and I hope you didn't even 131 00:07:38,916 --> 00:07:41,076 Speaker 1: write it down in your notes on any electronic device. 132 00:07:41,236 --> 00:07:43,236 Speaker 1: I did not in my brain all over which they 133 00:07:43,276 --> 00:07:47,236 Speaker 1: can get into. So here's young Kim Jong un. You 134 00:07:47,316 --> 00:07:49,836 Speaker 1: describe how he first went to the American school, and 135 00:07:49,836 --> 00:07:52,756 Speaker 1: then after his aunt and uncle left, he actually switched 136 00:07:52,836 --> 00:07:57,316 Speaker 1: to a public school, to a German speaking Swiss publics 137 00:07:57,436 --> 00:08:00,636 Speaker 1: or state school. You say he had been isolated before 138 00:08:00,636 --> 00:08:02,316 Speaker 1: and this was his chance to interact with other kids, 139 00:08:02,356 --> 00:08:04,796 Speaker 1: But in your telling and from the people you spoke to, 140 00:08:04,876 --> 00:08:06,996 Speaker 1: it sounds like he was actually a pretty lonely kid, 141 00:08:07,556 --> 00:08:11,076 Speaker 1: even in Switzerland. Yeah. I think that he found it 142 00:08:11,156 --> 00:08:14,196 Speaker 1: quite frustrating not to be able to communicate. So when 143 00:08:14,196 --> 00:08:17,556 Speaker 1: he went into this German speaking school after his aunt 144 00:08:17,596 --> 00:08:20,076 Speaker 1: and uncle had defected, and you know that was probably 145 00:08:20,316 --> 00:08:23,556 Speaker 1: the coats. To avoid having to explain why his parents 146 00:08:23,996 --> 00:08:28,276 Speaker 1: suddenly changed overnight. He went into a like a reception 147 00:08:28,476 --> 00:08:32,396 Speaker 1: class where he was learning German, learning his lessons in 148 00:08:32,516 --> 00:08:34,876 Speaker 1: very easy German at the beginning to adjust, and then 149 00:08:34,916 --> 00:08:39,036 Speaker 1: he went into a normal classroom there, but he did 150 00:08:39,036 --> 00:08:43,756 Speaker 1: seem to have some difficulties fitting in. Some former classmates 151 00:08:44,396 --> 00:08:46,996 Speaker 1: described how he would lash out. He would kick their 152 00:08:46,996 --> 00:08:50,276 Speaker 1: shins or spit at them and things in frustration. But 153 00:08:50,396 --> 00:08:53,116 Speaker 1: then he did have a couple of good friends who 154 00:08:53,156 --> 00:08:55,876 Speaker 1: he did invite back to his house, and one of them, 155 00:08:55,956 --> 00:08:59,636 Speaker 1: who was the son of Portuguese immigrants, Kim Jong actually 156 00:08:59,716 --> 00:09:01,636 Speaker 1: told him. He showed him a picture of Kim Jong 157 00:09:01,636 --> 00:09:04,076 Speaker 1: il and said this is my father, and this kid 158 00:09:04,196 --> 00:09:06,276 Speaker 1: laughed and said, yeah, right, your father as the leader 159 00:09:06,276 --> 00:09:08,836 Speaker 1: of North Korea, and Kim Jong wan just let it go. 160 00:09:09,316 --> 00:09:13,436 Speaker 1: And of course this classmate Frand discovered some years later 161 00:09:13,476 --> 00:09:16,996 Speaker 1: that Kim Jong Gond really was telling the truth. So 162 00:09:17,036 --> 00:09:20,716 Speaker 1: it's not a normal childhood by any measure, even though 163 00:09:20,796 --> 00:09:23,316 Speaker 1: it may have been comparatively more normal than it was 164 00:09:23,556 --> 00:09:25,116 Speaker 1: for Kim Jong Gond. Where he lived at home in 165 00:09:25,156 --> 00:09:28,956 Speaker 1: North Korea. Yeah, nothing about his childhood was anywhere And 166 00:09:29,356 --> 00:09:32,116 Speaker 1: what his aunt told me was that from that day, 167 00:09:32,196 --> 00:09:36,556 Speaker 1: his eighth birthday, when he was unveiled as the future 168 00:09:36,636 --> 00:09:40,076 Speaker 1: leader of North Korea, it had just become impossible for 169 00:09:40,196 --> 00:09:42,636 Speaker 1: him to live a normal life. And some of the 170 00:09:42,716 --> 00:09:45,876 Speaker 1: kids who knew him in Switzerland said they did find 171 00:09:45,916 --> 00:09:48,956 Speaker 1: it kind of weird and surprising that when he was 172 00:09:48,996 --> 00:09:52,036 Speaker 1: out on the basketball court after school there would often 173 00:09:52,116 --> 00:09:56,156 Speaker 1: be this little lineup of Korean adults sitting in deck chairs, 174 00:09:56,716 --> 00:10:00,676 Speaker 1: cheering and clapping excessively for him whenever he scored a 175 00:10:00,796 --> 00:10:03,156 Speaker 1: point in the game. Can I actually ask about the 176 00:10:03,156 --> 00:10:05,196 Speaker 1: basketball because that will turn out to be very important 177 00:10:05,516 --> 00:10:08,996 Speaker 1: later on. His obsession with the Chicago Bulls in particular, 178 00:10:09,556 --> 00:10:12,076 Speaker 1: who were the greatest team playing basketball at the time 179 00:10:12,116 --> 00:10:13,956 Speaker 1: that he was a kid, turned out to be relevant 180 00:10:13,916 --> 00:10:16,796 Speaker 1: to his later career and will come to that. But 181 00:10:16,996 --> 00:10:20,476 Speaker 1: why basketball, first of all, any sense of why this 182 00:10:20,796 --> 00:10:24,596 Speaker 1: archetypally American sport, which admittedly was globalizing very much in 183 00:10:24,596 --> 00:10:27,116 Speaker 1: this period of time, in part through the avenue of 184 00:10:27,116 --> 00:10:30,236 Speaker 1: the Bulls and their great star Michael Jordan. But he 185 00:10:30,516 --> 00:10:33,316 Speaker 1: thought on why he became obsessed with basketball and the 186 00:10:33,396 --> 00:10:36,116 Speaker 1: other question I'm dying to know is was he any 187 00:10:36,156 --> 00:10:38,756 Speaker 1: good at it? It's not that easy to play basketball, 188 00:10:38,836 --> 00:10:42,316 Speaker 1: especially if you're a short and slightly round child. I mean, 189 00:10:42,356 --> 00:10:43,996 Speaker 1: there's loving it and then there's loving to play at 190 00:10:44,036 --> 00:10:46,516 Speaker 1: Those aren't exactly the same thing. Yeah, right, So it's 191 00:10:46,516 --> 00:10:49,116 Speaker 1: a funny story how he became interested and there. When 192 00:10:49,116 --> 00:10:52,316 Speaker 1: he was a child, he was really obsessed with machines 193 00:10:52,436 --> 00:10:57,276 Speaker 1: like planes and anything with an engine. Boys, Yeah, exactly. 194 00:10:57,276 --> 00:11:00,596 Speaker 1: He loved to make model airplanes and fly them and 195 00:11:00,636 --> 00:11:03,396 Speaker 1: things like that. But his mother became very concerned that 196 00:11:03,476 --> 00:11:06,516 Speaker 1: he was so obsessive about this. You know, he would 197 00:11:06,596 --> 00:11:10,076 Speaker 1: ring he's making a model ship. He would ring an 198 00:11:10,076 --> 00:11:13,956 Speaker 1: actual naval engineer from the North Korean People's Army to 199 00:11:14,036 --> 00:11:16,476 Speaker 1: ask a question at three o'clock in the morning. You know, 200 00:11:16,516 --> 00:11:20,596 Speaker 1: this is his sense of entitlement, and the admiral would 201 00:11:20,596 --> 00:11:23,676 Speaker 1: answer the phone. Can be hard to read those instructions. 202 00:11:24,396 --> 00:11:27,316 Speaker 1: And so his mother was concerned that he was becoming 203 00:11:27,396 --> 00:11:29,876 Speaker 1: too obsessive with this, and she wanted to get him 204 00:11:29,876 --> 00:11:33,436 Speaker 1: into sport. And there is this Korean belief, you know, 205 00:11:33,556 --> 00:11:36,236 Speaker 1: South Korean, North Korea, to this day that if you 206 00:11:36,316 --> 00:11:40,836 Speaker 1: play basketball you'll grow taller, and so his mother channeled 207 00:11:40,916 --> 00:11:44,516 Speaker 1: him into basketball. He actually is a few inches taller 208 00:11:44,516 --> 00:11:46,436 Speaker 1: than his father was, so you know, who knows, maybe 209 00:11:46,436 --> 00:11:49,996 Speaker 1: I worked a little, but so she encouraged this, and 210 00:11:50,156 --> 00:11:53,316 Speaker 1: Kim Jong un just basically switched from one obsession to 211 00:11:53,356 --> 00:11:56,556 Speaker 1: the other. So he you know, he had all the gear, 212 00:11:56,756 --> 00:12:00,596 Speaker 1: all the spalleding, you know, official NBA balls. He used 213 00:12:00,636 --> 00:12:03,156 Speaker 1: to sleep with his basketball also, like a lot of 214 00:12:03,196 --> 00:12:05,876 Speaker 1: American kids, right, absolutely, I slap was mine, you know 215 00:12:05,916 --> 00:12:08,156 Speaker 1: what I mean? You know that very characteristic of a 216 00:12:08,236 --> 00:12:10,556 Speaker 1: kid who just really loved was a sport. Yeah, that's right. 217 00:12:10,596 --> 00:12:12,836 Speaker 1: And so then he would go out at every opportunity 218 00:12:13,156 --> 00:12:17,076 Speaker 1: he had a basketball hope at his apartment building where 219 00:12:17,116 --> 00:12:19,836 Speaker 1: he was, he would go out to the nearby high 220 00:12:19,876 --> 00:12:22,756 Speaker 1: school and play with other kids every single day after school. 221 00:12:22,836 --> 00:12:25,116 Speaker 1: Joe may have been his only form of social interaction 222 00:12:25,196 --> 00:12:28,636 Speaker 1: that wasn't mediated through language. Yeah, exactly, no lang. I 223 00:12:28,676 --> 00:12:31,316 Speaker 1: mean he was trying. Yeah, but you don't really need 224 00:12:31,316 --> 00:12:34,076 Speaker 1: to speak language. Pay basketball. It enables you to communicate 225 00:12:34,196 --> 00:12:35,716 Speaker 1: in some way through that. That's what you know, the 226 00:12:35,796 --> 00:12:37,116 Speaker 1: NBA would like us to think of that, and I 227 00:12:37,116 --> 00:12:38,916 Speaker 1: think that is sort of true. Yeah, And so I 228 00:12:38,956 --> 00:12:41,756 Speaker 1: think he was not exceptionally good or even very good 229 00:12:41,796 --> 00:12:44,156 Speaker 1: at that time. He did love it, okay, I think 230 00:12:44,156 --> 00:12:46,996 Speaker 1: he was Okay, he wasn't unspeakably bad. No, he put 231 00:12:47,036 --> 00:12:49,716 Speaker 1: in a lot of practice at that time, and he 232 00:12:49,836 --> 00:12:53,116 Speaker 1: really is a really serious fan, as we would come 233 00:12:53,156 --> 00:12:55,756 Speaker 1: to see later. You know, the very first time that 234 00:12:55,836 --> 00:13:00,076 Speaker 1: Dennis Rodman went to North Korea, he took three Harlem 235 00:13:00,116 --> 00:13:03,916 Speaker 1: Globetrotters with him because his people thought, you know, the 236 00:13:04,076 --> 00:13:07,276 Speaker 1: Harlem Globetrotters with all their on court antics would be 237 00:13:07,436 --> 00:13:11,356 Speaker 1: very entertaining and very accessible for North Korean people. Kim 238 00:13:11,436 --> 00:13:15,116 Speaker 1: Jongan hated it. He wanted a serious game. So the 239 00:13:15,276 --> 00:13:19,076 Speaker 1: next time Dennis Rodman went, he took these retired all 240 00:13:19,116 --> 00:13:22,876 Speaker 1: stars because Kim jong n wanted a real, proper game 241 00:13:22,956 --> 00:13:25,236 Speaker 1: to play there. So he is really serious about this, 242 00:13:25,276 --> 00:13:28,636 Speaker 1: and he does follow it very closely. Say something about 243 00:13:28,676 --> 00:13:31,956 Speaker 1: the weird way by which Dennis Rodman, of all of 244 00:13:31,996 --> 00:13:35,676 Speaker 1: the players of the Chicago Bulls from the era where 245 00:13:35,716 --> 00:13:38,156 Speaker 1: Kim Jongan was a kid and a fan, ended up 246 00:13:38,236 --> 00:13:40,396 Speaker 1: being the person you mentioned in the book that the 247 00:13:40,516 --> 00:13:44,756 Speaker 1: CIA actually thought of sending Dennis Rodman in the first place. 248 00:13:45,156 --> 00:13:46,676 Speaker 1: I don't know how you came across that that's a 249 00:13:46,676 --> 00:13:49,076 Speaker 1: fascinating thing. I had never read that anywhere else before, 250 00:13:49,156 --> 00:13:51,796 Speaker 1: but that it didn't work, and yet Rodman still ended 251 00:13:51,876 --> 00:13:54,516 Speaker 1: up going. How did that happen? Yeah, that's right. So 252 00:13:54,676 --> 00:13:58,756 Speaker 1: I think when Kim Jongan took over, American intelligence agents 253 00:13:58,796 --> 00:14:02,076 Speaker 1: and you know, administration officials saw an opportunity to try 254 00:14:02,116 --> 00:14:06,636 Speaker 1: to engage this new leader. So the first wink actually 255 00:14:06,676 --> 00:14:10,796 Speaker 1: knew about it, though, was when Vice Media took Dennis Rodman. 256 00:14:10,876 --> 00:14:14,196 Speaker 1: They had initially tried to convince Michael Jordan, but for 257 00:14:14,236 --> 00:14:16,316 Speaker 1: some reason he was not so keen on going to 258 00:14:16,356 --> 00:14:19,596 Speaker 1: North Korea. They got Dennis Rodman instead. But this was 259 00:14:20,436 --> 00:14:22,916 Speaker 1: down on his luck and needed the money, exactly happy 260 00:14:22,956 --> 00:14:27,716 Speaker 1: to go. But this idea did not originate with Vice. 261 00:14:28,436 --> 00:14:31,916 Speaker 1: First of all, the CIA had talked about taking a 262 00:14:31,996 --> 00:14:34,916 Speaker 1: Chicago ball or sending a Chicago bull to North Korea, 263 00:14:34,996 --> 00:14:37,156 Speaker 1: and they had settled on Dennis Rodman as well, and 264 00:14:37,236 --> 00:14:39,756 Speaker 1: for whatever reason, that didn't work out. But at the 265 00:14:39,836 --> 00:14:42,796 Speaker 1: same time and the last years of the Obama in 266 00:14:42,836 --> 00:14:46,796 Speaker 1: the middle years actually of the Obama administration, outside experts 267 00:14:46,796 --> 00:14:49,236 Speaker 1: were going into the Oval office and one of them 268 00:14:49,236 --> 00:14:53,236 Speaker 1: actually suggested that they take advantage of the Chicago Bull 269 00:14:53,436 --> 00:14:57,196 Speaker 1: fascination and try to, you know, make a bridge that way. 270 00:14:57,236 --> 00:15:00,996 Speaker 1: So it didn't go anywhere that Obama, very excellent basketball player, 271 00:15:01,596 --> 00:15:04,076 Speaker 1: did not appeal to for a long time. Yeah, yeah, 272 00:15:04,116 --> 00:15:06,236 Speaker 1: but it did not appeal to him at that time. 273 00:15:06,396 --> 00:15:09,076 Speaker 1: It took Dennis Rodman and Vice to make that happen. 274 00:15:09,276 --> 00:15:11,996 Speaker 1: Once you brought up Vice and Dennis Rodman, I just 275 00:15:11,996 --> 00:15:14,996 Speaker 1: have to ask you about the surreal scenes that you 276 00:15:15,076 --> 00:15:18,796 Speaker 1: describe in your book on the trip that Vice put 277 00:15:18,836 --> 00:15:22,836 Speaker 1: together at which Rodman went. None of it sounds like 278 00:15:23,036 --> 00:15:26,436 Speaker 1: ordinary journalism. None of it makes Kim Jong un sound 279 00:15:26,476 --> 00:15:30,836 Speaker 1: like an ordinary head of state. Tell me about how 280 00:15:30,876 --> 00:15:35,676 Speaker 1: that happened and about the weirdness that ensued. Yeah, so 281 00:15:36,076 --> 00:15:38,956 Speaker 1: VISs did come up with this idea to take a 282 00:15:39,036 --> 00:15:43,236 Speaker 1: Chicago Bull. They got Rodman, and the North Koreans responded 283 00:15:43,956 --> 00:15:47,916 Speaker 1: without really knowing that Vice News wasn't your standard media 284 00:15:48,036 --> 00:15:51,356 Speaker 1: organization at their time, but they had told their leader 285 00:15:51,396 --> 00:15:54,676 Speaker 1: that Dennis Rodman wanted to go, and he accepted and 286 00:15:54,756 --> 00:15:58,556 Speaker 1: off they went. And yes, there was the basketball side 287 00:15:58,556 --> 00:16:01,556 Speaker 1: of things, but also there was a lot of partying 288 00:16:01,636 --> 00:16:04,716 Speaker 1: that went on during these trips. So it sounds like 289 00:16:04,796 --> 00:16:07,836 Speaker 1: everybody was drunk or drugged out of their minds. Yeah. 290 00:16:07,876 --> 00:16:10,716 Speaker 1: In fact, you know, one stage during the course of 291 00:16:10,756 --> 00:16:14,316 Speaker 1: the evening on that Vice trip, Dennis Rodman had to 292 00:16:14,356 --> 00:16:17,516 Speaker 1: tell the Vice entourage, you know, the Vice team, to 293 00:16:17,516 --> 00:16:19,636 Speaker 1: tone it down a little. They were so out of control. 294 00:16:19,676 --> 00:16:20,876 Speaker 1: And one of them said to me, you know, we 295 00:16:20,996 --> 00:16:23,876 Speaker 1: knew things were bad when Dennis Rodman was telling us 296 00:16:23,916 --> 00:16:26,796 Speaker 1: to cool it. Yeah. There was a lot of drinking. 297 00:16:27,356 --> 00:16:31,396 Speaker 1: There was karaoke. Apparently Kim Jong un sang some James 298 00:16:31,396 --> 00:16:35,636 Speaker 1: Brown get on up during this evening. One of the 299 00:16:35,796 --> 00:16:38,796 Speaker 1: people who was on the Vice team was playing the saxophone. 300 00:16:39,716 --> 00:16:43,116 Speaker 1: Kim Jong UN's uncle, uncle Jong Song Tech, the one 301 00:16:43,196 --> 00:16:48,196 Speaker 1: he would later have executed, was there that night, and 302 00:16:48,236 --> 00:16:51,356 Speaker 1: there were a lot of quite brazen toasts. I mean, 303 00:16:51,436 --> 00:16:56,076 Speaker 1: Dennis Rodman stood up and said something about how Kim 304 00:16:56,156 --> 00:17:00,596 Speaker 1: Jong UN's father and grandfather had done some screwed up things. 305 00:17:00,596 --> 00:17:03,116 Speaker 1: I'll paraphrase there. Can I see what says in your 306 00:17:03,116 --> 00:17:07,636 Speaker 1: book your father and grandfather did some fucked up shit 307 00:17:07,956 --> 00:17:12,436 Speaker 1: he did, and everybody was holding their breath. And to 308 00:17:12,476 --> 00:17:16,076 Speaker 1: get away with saying that to the leader of North 309 00:17:16,156 --> 00:17:19,556 Speaker 1: Korea and walk away cleanly, what I don't know is 310 00:17:19,596 --> 00:17:22,956 Speaker 1: how the Korean translated translated that sentence you purely one 311 00:17:22,956 --> 00:17:25,436 Speaker 1: would hope, I would hope. Yeah, although you were saying 312 00:17:25,436 --> 00:17:28,356 Speaker 1: that Kim jonglen can speak English. Yeah, he seems to 313 00:17:28,356 --> 00:17:30,636 Speaker 1: be able to understand some English. Who we've seen him 314 00:17:30,636 --> 00:17:32,156 Speaker 1: when he was talking to Donald Trump. He seemed to 315 00:17:32,156 --> 00:17:34,236 Speaker 1: be nodding and getting the jokes first. I don't know 316 00:17:34,276 --> 00:17:36,156 Speaker 1: how his curse words are and whether he got that, 317 00:17:36,876 --> 00:17:40,516 Speaker 1: but anyway, early in one's education to speak English on 318 00:17:40,516 --> 00:17:43,716 Speaker 1: the basketball Yeah, yeah, you're right. But anyway, once it 319 00:17:43,836 --> 00:17:47,516 Speaker 1: was translated, he laughed and everybody breathed aside of relief, 320 00:17:47,516 --> 00:17:50,716 Speaker 1: and on they continued. So I think you know the 321 00:17:50,796 --> 00:17:53,156 Speaker 1: story is of that trip, and as well the vice 322 00:17:53,196 --> 00:17:56,076 Speaker 1: film that they made out of it contributed to a 323 00:17:56,156 --> 00:17:58,956 Speaker 1: kind of deepening of the perception that Kim jongn was 324 00:17:58,996 --> 00:18:00,276 Speaker 1: not the kind of person who was going to be 325 00:18:00,316 --> 00:18:06,356 Speaker 1: able to consolidate power and then actually govern as essentially 326 00:18:06,596 --> 00:18:09,516 Speaker 1: a monarch, because once you've got not one, not too 327 00:18:09,596 --> 00:18:13,156 Speaker 1: but three rounds of succession, you can call it a dictatorship, 328 00:18:13,196 --> 00:18:16,236 Speaker 1: but it has monarchic components. And you make a great 329 00:18:16,276 --> 00:18:19,796 Speaker 1: point in the book that there's an imagined bloodline that 330 00:18:19,956 --> 00:18:24,276 Speaker 1: takes all of the Kim Jong's family and takes them 331 00:18:24,276 --> 00:18:28,116 Speaker 1: back to a mythical birth on Mount Pectu, which is 332 00:18:28,116 --> 00:18:31,516 Speaker 1: a kind of site of kings. So it really really 333 00:18:31,596 --> 00:18:35,676 Speaker 1: is monarchic, and I guess I want to turn now 334 00:18:35,796 --> 00:18:38,436 Speaker 1: to this question of how he actually pulled it off 335 00:18:39,036 --> 00:18:43,036 Speaker 1: and surprised everybody. So let me start by asking you 336 00:18:43,556 --> 00:18:47,396 Speaker 1: whether you think that it's to do with Kim jongon's 337 00:18:47,476 --> 00:18:51,956 Speaker 1: own personal qualities ultimately that have enabled him to consolidate power, 338 00:18:52,516 --> 00:18:55,916 Speaker 1: or whether it's really a product of a recognition in 339 00:18:55,956 --> 00:18:59,236 Speaker 1: the senior echelons of the regime, not so senior as 340 00:18:59,236 --> 00:19:02,796 Speaker 1: to be executed or assassinated, but just below that that 341 00:19:03,516 --> 00:19:05,916 Speaker 1: the monarchy works better with a figurehead at the top 342 00:19:05,956 --> 00:19:08,476 Speaker 1: of it, and they're better off keeping him than they 343 00:19:08,476 --> 00:19:11,276 Speaker 1: would be with the uncertainty and disorder that would follow 344 00:19:11,436 --> 00:19:16,116 Speaker 1: his removal. Yeah, I think he has shown a natural 345 00:19:16,156 --> 00:19:18,716 Speaker 1: aptitude for this. There is a reason why he was 346 00:19:18,796 --> 00:19:23,676 Speaker 1: the son who was chosen as the successor. There weren't 347 00:19:23,716 --> 00:19:26,636 Speaker 1: so many choices, no, but there were three, and the 348 00:19:26,636 --> 00:19:29,716 Speaker 1: third son should have been the last choice, right, but 349 00:19:29,876 --> 00:19:34,196 Speaker 1: he rose to the top. You know, he very shrewdly 350 00:19:34,996 --> 00:19:38,436 Speaker 1: used that North Korean brains trust the people who had 351 00:19:38,516 --> 00:19:42,276 Speaker 1: been supporting his grandfather and then his father. You know, 352 00:19:42,676 --> 00:19:45,316 Speaker 1: if we look at the man who walked around the 353 00:19:45,396 --> 00:19:48,436 Speaker 1: hearse at his father's funeral with Kim Jong On at 354 00:19:48,436 --> 00:19:52,716 Speaker 1: the front of the car, those people had been propping 355 00:19:52,796 --> 00:19:56,956 Speaker 1: up this regime forever they were They were the regime, 356 00:19:57,116 --> 00:20:00,956 Speaker 1: and Kim Jong iarn had their support. They helped in 357 00:20:00,996 --> 00:20:05,556 Speaker 1: the transition process. They made sure that power remained with him, 358 00:20:06,036 --> 00:20:08,916 Speaker 1: and once they had served their purpose, he got rid 359 00:20:08,956 --> 00:20:12,996 Speaker 1: of because these were the powerful people who had their 360 00:20:13,036 --> 00:20:18,196 Speaker 1: own potential factions and power bases and could theoretically pose 361 00:20:18,236 --> 00:20:21,316 Speaker 1: a challenge to him. So there was the head of 362 00:20:21,356 --> 00:20:25,396 Speaker 1: the Korean People's Army had helped Kim Jong An, had 363 00:20:25,396 --> 00:20:29,276 Speaker 1: helped his father. He was disappeared and never seen again. 364 00:20:30,076 --> 00:20:32,756 Speaker 1: And then we had the propaganda chief, the guy who 365 00:20:32,796 --> 00:20:35,996 Speaker 1: was in charge of perpetuating all of this mythology about 366 00:20:35,996 --> 00:20:39,636 Speaker 1: the bloodline and the exceptional gun skills. At the age 367 00:20:39,636 --> 00:20:43,356 Speaker 1: of five, he also disappeared from view, never seen again. 368 00:20:43,956 --> 00:20:47,316 Speaker 1: Uncle Jong Song Tech, who was close to his older 369 00:20:47,676 --> 00:20:50,636 Speaker 1: Kim Jongn's older half brother Kim Jong nam, and who 370 00:20:50,676 --> 00:20:54,076 Speaker 1: had been very much in charge of economic relations with 371 00:20:54,196 --> 00:20:56,876 Speaker 1: China and appears to have been kind of a reformist 372 00:20:56,916 --> 00:21:01,836 Speaker 1: minded person, very charismatic, gregarious character. I've heard so many 373 00:21:01,876 --> 00:21:04,796 Speaker 1: stories about his drinking and his karaoke skills and things. 374 00:21:05,236 --> 00:21:10,076 Speaker 1: He had a really sizeable power base. He is. He 375 00:21:10,156 --> 00:21:13,996 Speaker 1: doesn't just disappear from view. He is hauled out of 376 00:21:13,996 --> 00:21:18,636 Speaker 1: a politbureau meeting very publicly. There's this long dire tribe 377 00:21:18,676 --> 00:21:23,356 Speaker 1: against him of like Shakespearean kind of rhetoric, calling him 378 00:21:23,356 --> 00:21:27,956 Speaker 1: a thrice cursed treacherous being, and then he has executed 379 00:21:28,316 --> 00:21:32,156 Speaker 1: a few days later. If you are somebody powerful in 380 00:21:32,196 --> 00:21:34,956 Speaker 1: that regime and you see all of these other people 381 00:21:36,036 --> 00:21:39,516 Speaker 1: humiliated and executed in this way, you are going to 382 00:21:39,596 --> 00:21:42,676 Speaker 1: think twice about questioning this guy and challenging this guy. 383 00:21:43,156 --> 00:21:47,956 Speaker 1: So partly it's through this fear and Kim Jong uns 384 00:21:47,956 --> 00:21:51,156 Speaker 1: showing that nobody is safe, not even his own family members, 385 00:21:51,476 --> 00:21:54,756 Speaker 1: that he's been able to look after this regime. But 386 00:21:54,836 --> 00:21:57,116 Speaker 1: the other part of it is that he has made 387 00:21:57,156 --> 00:22:00,556 Speaker 1: sure that the people around him, the people who keep 388 00:22:00,596 --> 00:22:04,236 Speaker 1: him in power, have become rich under him. They are 389 00:22:04,316 --> 00:22:08,756 Speaker 1: living a life much better than ever before. They have 390 00:22:08,876 --> 00:22:12,036 Speaker 1: been able to use their positions in a very corrupt 391 00:22:12,116 --> 00:22:14,396 Speaker 1: way to earn a lot of money on the side 392 00:22:14,796 --> 00:22:19,396 Speaker 1: through business dealings and you know, making money during their travels. 393 00:22:20,076 --> 00:22:24,116 Speaker 1: So those people are living a better life than ever before. 394 00:22:24,436 --> 00:22:29,156 Speaker 1: So through you, through loyalty, developing this loyalty and keeping 395 00:22:29,196 --> 00:22:32,676 Speaker 1: everybody fearful, he's managed to keep it together. So you're 396 00:22:32,676 --> 00:22:35,476 Speaker 1: describing what sounds to me like a two track strategy. 397 00:22:35,996 --> 00:22:40,196 Speaker 1: The first track is rely on the people who think 398 00:22:40,196 --> 00:22:42,916 Speaker 1: they need you to get into power and to consolidate 399 00:22:42,956 --> 00:22:45,876 Speaker 1: your power, and then one by one knock them off. 400 00:22:46,156 --> 00:22:47,996 Speaker 1: You call that the Richard the third strategy, as long 401 00:22:48,036 --> 00:22:51,396 Speaker 1: as you're being Shakespearean, Yeah, and the good thing about 402 00:22:51,396 --> 00:22:54,276 Speaker 1: that strategy is you knock off your potential opponents. The 403 00:22:54,396 --> 00:22:56,956 Speaker 1: risky thing about that strategy, see Richard the third is 404 00:22:56,956 --> 00:23:00,116 Speaker 1: that you've knocked off your potential opponents, and there's the 405 00:23:00,236 --> 00:23:02,516 Speaker 1: danger that you won't have a base once you've done that. 406 00:23:02,956 --> 00:23:05,476 Speaker 1: And then that leads to the second strategy that you're describing, 407 00:23:05,716 --> 00:23:08,756 Speaker 1: which is actually to improve the status of the people 408 00:23:08,756 --> 00:23:11,716 Speaker 1: who you are relying the new people, as it were, 409 00:23:11,716 --> 00:23:14,356 Speaker 1: the ones who were rising by virtue of your position 410 00:23:14,356 --> 00:23:16,516 Speaker 1: and who therefore will owe what they have to you 411 00:23:16,636 --> 00:23:20,796 Speaker 1: in particular, and not to your father. How has Kim 412 00:23:20,836 --> 00:23:25,436 Speaker 1: Jong un gotten that new rising class of elites to 413 00:23:25,636 --> 00:23:29,076 Speaker 1: be so much better off than they were in the past. Yeah, 414 00:23:29,156 --> 00:23:31,836 Speaker 1: he's allowed a lot or tolerated a lot more kind 415 00:23:31,836 --> 00:23:35,476 Speaker 1: of market based activity. So there's now a lot of 416 00:23:35,516 --> 00:23:39,636 Speaker 1: trading that happens between China and North Korea. And if 417 00:23:39,676 --> 00:23:42,436 Speaker 1: you are senior in the regime and involved in any 418 00:23:42,516 --> 00:23:45,676 Speaker 1: kind of trade whatsoever, and so many people are, Like 419 00:23:45,756 --> 00:23:50,276 Speaker 1: all of these huge apartment towers in North Korea have 420 00:23:50,316 --> 00:23:53,756 Speaker 1: been built, a lot of it through military labor, but 421 00:23:53,956 --> 00:23:57,276 Speaker 1: Chinese money and Chinese investments, So they are selling these 422 00:23:57,596 --> 00:24:02,396 Speaker 1: contracts to Chinese investors and taking a cut on the side. 423 00:24:02,476 --> 00:24:06,436 Speaker 1: So these people have been able to earn a lot 424 00:24:06,476 --> 00:24:09,716 Speaker 1: of money. People who are sent to or to earn 425 00:24:09,796 --> 00:24:12,076 Speaker 1: money for Kim Jong earn, and he has a whole 426 00:24:12,516 --> 00:24:16,956 Speaker 1: special unit setting up just to filling his coffers. They 427 00:24:17,156 --> 00:24:20,676 Speaker 1: have also been able to enrich themselves on the side. 428 00:24:20,756 --> 00:24:24,676 Speaker 1: So because these people have been allowed to be corrupt 429 00:24:24,716 --> 00:24:28,956 Speaker 1: and making their money, yeah, they have more reason than 430 00:24:29,036 --> 00:24:31,076 Speaker 1: ever to be loyal to Kim Jong ear And they 431 00:24:31,076 --> 00:24:33,676 Speaker 1: had this new band of loyal people who would not 432 00:24:33,916 --> 00:24:37,636 Speaker 1: enjoy this privileged position. And these riches if they were 433 00:24:37,676 --> 00:24:40,396 Speaker 1: to defect to South Korea and drive a taxi. So 434 00:24:40,956 --> 00:24:43,516 Speaker 1: from what you're describing, it sounds like he's created a 435 00:24:43,596 --> 00:24:46,956 Speaker 1: one percent via corruption. And to do that, there has 436 00:24:46,996 --> 00:24:49,876 Speaker 1: to be a part from which you can steal, and 437 00:24:49,956 --> 00:24:53,636 Speaker 1: the part is trade. Increased economic activity and increased trade 438 00:24:53,676 --> 00:24:57,436 Speaker 1: more than existed previously. And in your account, by allowing 439 00:24:57,516 --> 00:25:01,276 Speaker 1: that relatively small tranche of people to get a bit 440 00:25:01,316 --> 00:25:03,116 Speaker 1: of the pie as it comes into him, I mean 441 00:25:03,116 --> 00:25:05,316 Speaker 1: he may get the line share of it, but allowing 442 00:25:05,356 --> 00:25:08,036 Speaker 1: them to scrape off a certain amount and make real money, 443 00:25:08,556 --> 00:25:12,556 Speaker 1: he's built an elite class that is loyal to him 444 00:25:13,356 --> 00:25:16,356 Speaker 1: in a way that looks a bit like the model 445 00:25:16,436 --> 00:25:19,476 Speaker 1: that the senior ranks of the Chinese Communist Party followed, 446 00:25:20,076 --> 00:25:22,636 Speaker 1: not in the last decade, but in two or three 447 00:25:22,636 --> 00:25:26,436 Speaker 1: decades before then, when China was just beginning its market opening, 448 00:25:26,916 --> 00:25:30,596 Speaker 1: when of course, party senior party officials became tremendously rich 449 00:25:31,116 --> 00:25:34,436 Speaker 1: and created an elite that then consolidated itself and supported 450 00:25:35,276 --> 00:25:38,196 Speaker 1: the government. Do you think he's copying China in that 451 00:25:38,316 --> 00:25:42,596 Speaker 1: regard In some respects, yes, but in some respects no. 452 00:25:42,836 --> 00:25:47,196 Speaker 1: I mean, I think he would like some economic development 453 00:25:47,516 --> 00:25:52,396 Speaker 1: and that sense that life is getting better, but he 454 00:25:52,476 --> 00:25:56,476 Speaker 1: can't have even Chinese style reform and opening like even 455 00:25:56,516 --> 00:26:00,236 Speaker 1: that is too risky for him because the difference there 456 00:26:00,556 --> 00:26:03,596 Speaker 1: is that there is a kind of jockeying for power 457 00:26:03,676 --> 00:26:07,876 Speaker 1: within the Chinese Communist Party. You know, they not every 458 00:26:07,956 --> 00:26:10,676 Speaker 1: leader has been called Mao in China, right, There is 459 00:26:12,076 --> 00:26:15,756 Speaker 1: a competition, and Kim Jong un cannot have that kind 460 00:26:15,796 --> 00:26:20,156 Speaker 1: of competition within the ranks of North Korea because it 461 00:26:20,156 --> 00:26:23,396 Speaker 1: would be very hard for him to say, or would 462 00:26:23,396 --> 00:26:25,356 Speaker 1: have been very hard for him to say that a 463 00:26:25,476 --> 00:26:28,036 Speaker 1: twenty seven year old marshall who's never spent a day 464 00:26:28,036 --> 00:26:31,156 Speaker 1: in the military and has no political experience is the 465 00:26:31,196 --> 00:26:33,636 Speaker 1: best guy for the job. But he could allow competition 466 00:26:33,676 --> 00:26:35,796 Speaker 1: for the second rank, as it were. I mean, if 467 00:26:35,836 --> 00:26:38,556 Speaker 1: he's treated more or less as a monarch, he could 468 00:26:38,556 --> 00:26:42,276 Speaker 1: allow among the elites some jockeying for power in his 469 00:26:42,356 --> 00:26:44,556 Speaker 1: regime by do you do a good job, do you 470 00:26:44,596 --> 00:26:46,916 Speaker 1: bring in money, do you show loyalty to me? I mean, 471 00:26:46,916 --> 00:26:49,596 Speaker 1: maybe he is and there has been some changes there people. 472 00:26:49,956 --> 00:26:52,436 Speaker 1: You know, in the Communist Party ranks, people do rise 473 00:26:52,476 --> 00:26:54,436 Speaker 1: and fall there, and so we have seen a number 474 00:26:54,476 --> 00:26:57,796 Speaker 1: of people disappear from the Politburo people rising, so he 475 00:26:57,916 --> 00:27:00,796 Speaker 1: has tried to make his own. Every place has politics, 476 00:27:00,796 --> 00:27:03,476 Speaker 1: I mean, even an authoritary and dictatorship has parted. North 477 00:27:03,556 --> 00:27:06,116 Speaker 1: Korea has hawks and doves, you know they do. There 478 00:27:06,236 --> 00:27:09,836 Speaker 1: is this, you know, he has to manage that. Let's 479 00:27:09,876 --> 00:27:14,116 Speaker 1: talk now about his expansion of market reforms more broadly, 480 00:27:14,156 --> 00:27:17,436 Speaker 1: to reach a larger and larger segment of the population 481 00:27:17,836 --> 00:27:22,116 Speaker 1: through gradual marketization. That seems to be in a way 482 00:27:22,156 --> 00:27:24,636 Speaker 1: both the most brilliant and also the most high risk 483 00:27:24,756 --> 00:27:27,876 Speaker 1: aspect of his policy, the attempt to sort of improve 484 00:27:27,916 --> 00:27:29,756 Speaker 1: the standards of living not just of a one percent 485 00:27:30,356 --> 00:27:33,876 Speaker 1: but of a growing entrepreneurial class. You're in a country 486 00:27:33,876 --> 00:27:38,636 Speaker 1: in North Korea where historically entrepreneurship was completely prohibited and punished, 487 00:27:38,676 --> 00:27:41,156 Speaker 1: and if people did it on the sly, they were 488 00:27:41,196 --> 00:27:43,676 Speaker 1: very limited in what they could get away with. And 489 00:27:43,756 --> 00:27:48,196 Speaker 1: now there's been a gradual but very meaningful opening of 490 00:27:48,356 --> 00:27:53,516 Speaker 1: entrepreneurial opportunities. Is it working, Yes, it is working to 491 00:27:53,676 --> 00:27:57,756 Speaker 1: an extent. This trend started after the famine at the 492 00:27:57,836 --> 00:28:00,836 Speaker 1: end of the nineteen nineties. Out of necessity, people were 493 00:28:01,076 --> 00:28:03,956 Speaker 1: like literally starving. Today, the whole generation was malnourished and 494 00:28:03,956 --> 00:28:08,436 Speaker 1: a shorter exactly exactly. He brand damaged. Yeah, so that 495 00:28:08,756 --> 00:28:11,516 Speaker 1: was lerated at the time out of necessity, but Kim 496 00:28:11,596 --> 00:28:16,436 Speaker 1: jongn has allowed that to expand under quite constrained circumstances though. 497 00:28:16,956 --> 00:28:19,236 Speaker 1: So now there are markets. There are more than four 498 00:28:19,356 --> 00:28:22,916 Speaker 1: hundred and fifty marketplaces around the country, more than double 499 00:28:22,996 --> 00:28:26,116 Speaker 1: the number than when he took over. Every major city 500 00:28:26,116 --> 00:28:28,956 Speaker 1: in town has one at least one, and this has 501 00:28:28,996 --> 00:28:31,476 Speaker 1: become the life. Kind of marketplaces are you describing, Well, 502 00:28:31,516 --> 00:28:35,396 Speaker 1: this is a thing that they've become, you know, quite institutionalized. 503 00:28:35,436 --> 00:28:37,996 Speaker 1: There are huge buildings built by the state. The state 504 00:28:38,076 --> 00:28:40,916 Speaker 1: rents out the stalls. They take may make money from 505 00:28:40,916 --> 00:28:43,596 Speaker 1: the rent. They tax the sales in there, so the 506 00:28:43,636 --> 00:28:47,996 Speaker 1: state is really enriching itself. And what's being sold everything, Yeah, everything. 507 00:28:47,996 --> 00:28:49,676 Speaker 1: Able to visit one, I have not been allowed to 508 00:28:49,756 --> 00:28:51,676 Speaker 1: visit one, but I've seen a lot of secret footage 509 00:28:51,716 --> 00:28:54,196 Speaker 1: from inside these markets and talk to people about them. 510 00:28:54,516 --> 00:28:57,596 Speaker 1: You know, there's the daily necessity, So a lot of 511 00:28:57,596 --> 00:29:00,996 Speaker 1: people are selling food. There's rice that's coming in. You 512 00:29:01,036 --> 00:29:04,916 Speaker 1: can buy electronics from China. You can buy rice cookers, 513 00:29:04,916 --> 00:29:07,636 Speaker 1: and you can buy glittery cell phone cases. You can 514 00:29:07,636 --> 00:29:09,436 Speaker 1: buy if you have the money and more and more 515 00:29:09,436 --> 00:29:12,316 Speaker 1: people do. You can buy everything, So this is a 516 00:29:12,396 --> 00:29:16,316 Speaker 1: way that people are able to earn their own living 517 00:29:16,356 --> 00:29:19,436 Speaker 1: independent of the state. This is a huge change in 518 00:29:19,516 --> 00:29:21,796 Speaker 1: North Korea. I mean, it's giving up on the core 519 00:29:21,996 --> 00:29:28,476 Speaker 1: notion of self reliance through radical Marxian and communism exactly exactly. 520 00:29:28,436 --> 00:29:30,796 Speaker 1: I mean, even though they stick to that in their propaganda, 521 00:29:30,876 --> 00:29:34,716 Speaker 1: it's not happening in effect anymore. But there are still 522 00:29:34,716 --> 00:29:36,636 Speaker 1: constraints and people do have to be kind of very 523 00:29:36,716 --> 00:29:39,556 Speaker 1: careful not to run a foul of the system, like 524 00:29:39,676 --> 00:29:42,196 Speaker 1: if you are seen to be living too large or 525 00:29:42,236 --> 00:29:45,516 Speaker 1: you know, it's not so much the authorities, you don't 526 00:29:45,516 --> 00:29:47,316 Speaker 1: have to worry about the authorities. But in a bigger 527 00:29:47,356 --> 00:29:50,756 Speaker 1: risk is that is jealousy. You know, where once people 528 00:29:50,756 --> 00:29:54,556 Speaker 1: in North Korea were equally poor, now there are more 529 00:29:54,596 --> 00:29:58,516 Speaker 1: and more middle class people. There's more conspicuous consumption, you know, 530 00:29:58,516 --> 00:30:01,316 Speaker 1: and if your neighbor sees you living too good at life, 531 00:30:01,316 --> 00:30:03,836 Speaker 1: they might rat on you and try and make up 532 00:30:03,876 --> 00:30:06,676 Speaker 1: something about you or tell people that you are corrupt 533 00:30:06,956 --> 00:30:12,836 Speaker 1: and then us necessary feature of all inequality. But inequality 534 00:30:12,876 --> 00:30:14,476 Speaker 1: has turned out to be, for a better or worse, 535 00:30:14,636 --> 00:30:18,516 Speaker 1: a necessary feature of all relatively marketized economies. Yeah, but 536 00:30:18,556 --> 00:30:20,276 Speaker 1: when you're told every day that you live in a 537 00:30:20,316 --> 00:30:22,956 Speaker 1: socialist paradise and that the leader is, you know, taking 538 00:30:22,996 --> 00:30:25,636 Speaker 1: great care of you, that can be even more hard 539 00:30:25,676 --> 00:30:28,236 Speaker 1: to stomach. I think I'm sure that's true. China pulled 540 00:30:28,236 --> 00:30:29,956 Speaker 1: it off, though. I mean, there in China you still 541 00:30:29,996 --> 00:30:33,276 Speaker 1: have the rhetoric of state socialism even as you've got 542 00:30:33,356 --> 00:30:38,156 Speaker 1: increasingly marketized economy, and you've got it vastly greater inequality 543 00:30:38,156 --> 00:30:40,196 Speaker 1: than previously existed. Yeah, I mean. And the reason I 544 00:30:40,236 --> 00:30:42,356 Speaker 1: say that it is working in North Korea and that 545 00:30:42,396 --> 00:30:46,556 Speaker 1: people are now much more entrepreneurial and aspirational is because 546 00:30:46,636 --> 00:30:49,596 Speaker 1: Kim Jong un hasn't really had to do anything to 547 00:30:49,636 --> 00:30:53,796 Speaker 1: allow this improvement. You know, people have been able to 548 00:30:53,796 --> 00:30:56,836 Speaker 1: trade and earn their way to a better standard of living. 549 00:30:57,236 --> 00:31:00,836 Speaker 1: You know, sometimes life is a little bit better, you know, 550 00:31:00,916 --> 00:31:04,356 Speaker 1: better than horrible, you know, slightly less horrible. Sometimes it's 551 00:31:04,356 --> 00:31:06,796 Speaker 1: a lot better, depending on how successful these people are. 552 00:31:07,276 --> 00:31:09,596 Speaker 1: But he has been able to take all of the 553 00:31:09,636 --> 00:31:11,996 Speaker 1: credit for this. He's been able to say that under 554 00:31:12,116 --> 00:31:15,556 Speaker 1: his great leadership, people's lives are improving without having to 555 00:31:15,556 --> 00:31:18,836 Speaker 1: do very much at all. The next challenge for him 556 00:31:18,996 --> 00:31:22,316 Speaker 1: is how he sustains that improvement. Because I mean, one 557 00:31:22,356 --> 00:31:24,756 Speaker 1: of the fascinating things I discovered when I went to 558 00:31:24,756 --> 00:31:29,436 Speaker 1: Switzerland and I leafed through the curriculum from the time 559 00:31:29,476 --> 00:31:32,076 Speaker 1: that Kim john Lund was at school and burn and 560 00:31:32,276 --> 00:31:36,156 Speaker 1: all students in Switzerland learn about the French Revolution. They 561 00:31:36,236 --> 00:31:40,716 Speaker 1: learn about rising expectations and how you know those expectations 562 00:31:40,756 --> 00:31:44,876 Speaker 1: going unmet can lead to revolution. And I wonder if 563 00:31:44,916 --> 00:31:48,876 Speaker 1: he remembers those lessons and now if he is thinking 564 00:31:48,916 --> 00:31:52,436 Speaker 1: about how he sustains the sense of things getting better. 565 00:31:52,756 --> 00:31:55,236 Speaker 1: And that is why I conclude that he needs to 566 00:31:55,276 --> 00:31:59,196 Speaker 1: press ahead with economic development. He needs to try to 567 00:31:59,236 --> 00:32:02,236 Speaker 1: attract foreign investment. He really needs to get rid of 568 00:32:02,236 --> 00:32:05,956 Speaker 1: those American led sanctions and allow trade and money to 569 00:32:05,996 --> 00:32:09,756 Speaker 1: flow unfettered, because you know it will run out of steam. 570 00:32:10,276 --> 00:32:13,796 Speaker 1: You're describing somebody who has the perfect training, as it were, 571 00:32:13,836 --> 00:32:16,396 Speaker 1: for his job. You know, maybe growing up part of 572 00:32:16,396 --> 00:32:19,556 Speaker 1: the time in Switzerland didn't teach him to eliminate his enemies. 573 00:32:19,556 --> 00:32:21,716 Speaker 1: Maybe he had to learn that by watching The Godfather 574 00:32:21,836 --> 00:32:23,316 Speaker 1: or just by watching his father do it. And he 575 00:32:23,396 --> 00:32:27,356 Speaker 1: managed to do that. But the marketized reforms, the gradual 576 00:32:27,476 --> 00:32:30,876 Speaker 1: marketized reforms, sound very much like what one would expect 577 00:32:31,156 --> 00:32:33,556 Speaker 1: from someone who grew up in the West, who saw 578 00:32:33,556 --> 00:32:38,156 Speaker 1: the capitalism was delivering much greater standard of living than 579 00:32:38,196 --> 00:32:41,996 Speaker 1: anyone in North Korea was experiencing, and when he came 580 00:32:41,996 --> 00:32:45,396 Speaker 1: to power, decided to open things up. Not politically by 581 00:32:45,396 --> 00:32:48,236 Speaker 1: any stretch of the imagination, but economically. I mean, is 582 00:32:48,236 --> 00:32:51,196 Speaker 1: that what you're saying, that's connecting the dots. No. I 583 00:32:51,236 --> 00:32:55,436 Speaker 1: think that his time in Switzerland taught him that if 584 00:32:55,476 --> 00:32:59,276 Speaker 1: he lived in a democracy, he'd be in nobody. He'd 585 00:32:59,316 --> 00:33:02,516 Speaker 1: just be another kid struggling to get by. He wouldn't 586 00:33:02,556 --> 00:33:07,396 Speaker 1: be loved and adored at every turn. You know that 587 00:33:07,516 --> 00:33:11,076 Speaker 1: the Swiss or the Western liberal democratic model was not 588 00:33:11,116 --> 00:33:14,436 Speaker 1: for him. I think it showed him that he needed 589 00:33:14,476 --> 00:33:18,516 Speaker 1: to keep his bizarre family personality cult intact if he 590 00:33:18,636 --> 00:33:22,396 Speaker 1: was going to continue to enjoy this very privileged position 591 00:33:22,436 --> 00:33:24,116 Speaker 1: at the top. But does it have to Can I 592 00:33:24,156 --> 00:33:27,156 Speaker 1: just push back a moment? I mean, someone is raised 593 00:33:27,156 --> 00:33:29,276 Speaker 1: to be a prince, he's told from an early age 594 00:33:29,276 --> 00:33:31,556 Speaker 1: that his destiny is to become a prince. He does 595 00:33:31,676 --> 00:33:34,956 Speaker 1: then does prince like things, you know, succeeding to power, 596 00:33:35,156 --> 00:33:37,636 Speaker 1: killing off his enemies. Eventually we haven't talked about it, 597 00:33:37,716 --> 00:33:42,916 Speaker 1: but killing off his own brother in this spectacular airport assassination. 598 00:33:43,756 --> 00:33:45,876 Speaker 1: These are all things that are in the script for 599 00:33:46,036 --> 00:33:48,876 Speaker 1: a prince. It doesn't require, I don't think, for us 600 00:33:48,916 --> 00:33:52,316 Speaker 1: to explain this behavior to think that, you know, he saw, 601 00:33:52,436 --> 00:33:54,476 Speaker 1: he saw that he couldn't have made it into democracy. 602 00:33:54,476 --> 00:33:56,756 Speaker 1: I mean, it's just natural. If this is your destiny, 603 00:33:57,156 --> 00:34:01,516 Speaker 1: you proceed along this destiny. Yeah, I mean, I think 604 00:34:01,516 --> 00:34:05,196 Speaker 1: the bottom line is that, especially since so many people, 605 00:34:05,556 --> 00:34:08,356 Speaker 1: including the President of the United States, since we're coming 606 00:34:08,396 --> 00:34:11,556 Speaker 1: to him, I said that he's a rational or crazy 607 00:34:11,636 --> 00:34:14,236 Speaker 1: in some way. I mean, the conclusion that I very 608 00:34:14,276 --> 00:34:16,396 Speaker 1: much draw is that he has not. He has acted 609 00:34:16,556 --> 00:34:22,076 Speaker 1: perfectly rationally and in a calculated manner. With all of this, 610 00:34:22,236 --> 00:34:26,676 Speaker 1: with the brutal executions, with the gradual opening on the 611 00:34:26,716 --> 00:34:29,996 Speaker 1: economic side, and the tolerance of markets, all of the 612 00:34:30,116 --> 00:34:34,036 Speaker 1: stuff exactly, It makes perfect sense if you are a 613 00:34:34,076 --> 00:34:39,116 Speaker 1: totalitarian leader whose primary goal is staying in power. So 614 00:34:40,116 --> 00:34:44,556 Speaker 1: your rationalist. Kim Jong un has his great interlocutor today 615 00:34:44,716 --> 00:34:47,476 Speaker 1: in Donald Trump, whom you just mentioned, and I want 616 00:34:47,476 --> 00:34:50,436 Speaker 1: to ask you about their dance. They're in some very 617 00:34:50,476 --> 00:34:53,236 Speaker 1: complex and intricate dance where they're close and they're far, 618 00:34:53,276 --> 00:34:56,876 Speaker 1: and they're close and they're far. How rationally do you 619 00:34:56,876 --> 00:35:00,476 Speaker 1: think Kim Jong un has acted in that engagement and 620 00:35:00,556 --> 00:35:03,076 Speaker 1: how successful do you read his efforts as having been, 621 00:35:03,756 --> 00:35:06,516 Speaker 1: I mean very successful. I think he's been in the 622 00:35:06,596 --> 00:35:09,636 Speaker 1: driver's seat the entire time, and he's really figured out 623 00:35:09,636 --> 00:35:11,836 Speaker 1: how to play Trump. I mean, he knows how to 624 00:35:11,876 --> 00:35:15,076 Speaker 1: push the president's buttons. You know, the North Koreans have 625 00:35:15,716 --> 00:35:17,836 Speaker 1: as you know, the Chinese and the Japanese, on the 626 00:35:17,876 --> 00:35:20,716 Speaker 1: South Koreens, everybody, they've devoted a lot of energy to 627 00:35:20,716 --> 00:35:23,396 Speaker 1: try to figure out Donald Trump. You know, they were 628 00:35:23,476 --> 00:35:26,476 Speaker 1: so mystified by all these tweets at the beginning and 629 00:35:26,516 --> 00:35:30,716 Speaker 1: what did this mean. But the North Koreans, the people 630 00:35:30,716 --> 00:35:32,916 Speaker 1: on the top of the regime, they have read the 631 00:35:33,076 --> 00:35:36,716 Speaker 1: Art of the Deal. I've heard about instances where North 632 00:35:36,796 --> 00:35:40,236 Speaker 1: Korean officials have quoted Donald Trump's tweets. They have an 633 00:35:40,276 --> 00:35:44,116 Speaker 1: encyclopedic knowledge of everything he said. They're officials who have 634 00:35:44,236 --> 00:35:47,436 Speaker 1: read Fire and Fury, Michael Wolf's account of inside the 635 00:35:47,436 --> 00:35:51,156 Speaker 1: White House. So they have really studied how to deal 636 00:35:51,196 --> 00:35:54,996 Speaker 1: with him and what he responds to. So after Kim 637 00:35:55,076 --> 00:35:58,156 Speaker 1: Jong n, you know, completed as he said, his nuclear 638 00:35:58,516 --> 00:36:03,596 Speaker 1: and missile program and was ready to turn to diplomacy. 639 00:36:04,556 --> 00:36:07,116 Speaker 1: He figured out how to flatter the president. You know, 640 00:36:07,196 --> 00:36:10,076 Speaker 1: all of these like beautiful love letters that Donald Trump 641 00:36:10,116 --> 00:36:13,756 Speaker 1: talks about, enormous physically enormous love letters, you point out right, 642 00:36:13,916 --> 00:36:17,836 Speaker 1: not just you know, flowery flattery, but physically enormous, like 643 00:36:17,916 --> 00:36:21,196 Speaker 1: comedic sized envelopes. He's sent a million dollar check from 644 00:36:21,196 --> 00:36:25,356 Speaker 1: publishers bearing exactly, but Donald Trump responds to it. He 645 00:36:25,396 --> 00:36:28,236 Speaker 1: shows everybody who goes into the Oval office these letters 646 00:36:28,276 --> 00:36:30,916 Speaker 1: because he's so proud of it, and it's enabled Kim 647 00:36:30,996 --> 00:36:33,356 Speaker 1: Jong on. You know, look at that first summit in Singapore, 648 00:36:33,876 --> 00:36:37,036 Speaker 1: they agreed to almost nothing. It was so vague, but 649 00:36:37,196 --> 00:36:41,636 Speaker 1: Donald Trump walked out explaining away the human rights abuses 650 00:36:41,636 --> 00:36:43,556 Speaker 1: of North Korea, saying that you know, there are a 651 00:36:43,556 --> 00:36:47,156 Speaker 1: lot of rough places out there, you know, dismissing what 652 00:36:47,196 --> 00:36:49,916 Speaker 1: happened to Otto Wambiera as a way. You know that 653 00:36:49,916 --> 00:36:52,276 Speaker 1: that's what how they got back to talks and things. 654 00:36:52,796 --> 00:36:55,516 Speaker 1: And that's the American who died after being in a 655 00:36:55,556 --> 00:36:58,556 Speaker 1: comma exactly, a healthy young man who left North Korea 656 00:36:58,916 --> 00:37:04,036 Speaker 1: brain dead. Through this flattery, Kim Jong n has managed 657 00:37:04,076 --> 00:37:07,356 Speaker 1: to win over Donald Trump, and you know, the style 658 00:37:07,756 --> 00:37:11,396 Speaker 1: worked without Jong Leon ever having to get to the substance. 659 00:37:11,596 --> 00:37:14,076 Speaker 1: Kim Jongon certainly seems to have captured a lot of 660 00:37:14,316 --> 00:37:17,996 Speaker 1: Trump mind share. I think immediately of something that you 661 00:37:18,036 --> 00:37:20,236 Speaker 1: reported for the first time in your book, namely that 662 00:37:20,756 --> 00:37:23,956 Speaker 1: Kim Jong Nam, his older brother who was assassinated, had 663 00:37:23,996 --> 00:37:28,356 Speaker 1: actually been in contact with the CIA, And shortly after 664 00:37:28,676 --> 00:37:32,796 Speaker 1: you reported that in your book, Donald Trump went public 665 00:37:32,836 --> 00:37:35,236 Speaker 1: with the statement that if it were under his auspices, 666 00:37:35,236 --> 00:37:38,196 Speaker 1: he would never have allowed this connection to take place. 667 00:37:38,796 --> 00:37:41,996 Speaker 1: I saw the information about the CIA with respect to 668 00:37:42,076 --> 00:37:46,276 Speaker 1: his brother or half brother, and I would tell him 669 00:37:46,276 --> 00:37:50,756 Speaker 1: that would not happen under my auspices. So there you 670 00:37:50,796 --> 00:37:54,836 Speaker 1: have the President United States responding to your book specifically 671 00:37:54,876 --> 00:37:57,716 Speaker 1: in reference to Kim Jong Leon. Why do you think 672 00:37:57,796 --> 00:38:00,956 Speaker 1: he's doing that? Is he trying to defend him his friendship, 673 00:38:00,996 --> 00:38:03,036 Speaker 1: as it were, from the idea that he would mess 674 00:38:03,076 --> 00:38:07,076 Speaker 1: with Kim Jongon's older brother by via the CIA. I 675 00:38:07,196 --> 00:38:11,156 Speaker 1: cannot explain Donald Trump's thanking on that. That may not 676 00:38:11,196 --> 00:38:12,956 Speaker 1: be part of your job, but if you fueled it, 677 00:38:13,036 --> 00:38:14,636 Speaker 1: so you have to say, oh, yeah, no, no, I 678 00:38:14,676 --> 00:38:17,596 Speaker 1: mean you could hear the Champagne corks popping in Pyongyang. Right, 679 00:38:17,676 --> 00:38:21,316 Speaker 1: The CIA agents call North Korea the hardest of the 680 00:38:21,476 --> 00:38:24,876 Speaker 1: hard tasks. Right. They true for journalists too, isn't it. 681 00:38:24,916 --> 00:38:28,476 Speaker 1: I mean, when you're North Korea correspond There is like 682 00:38:28,596 --> 00:38:32,316 Speaker 1: almost zero human intelligence on North Korea, like in vast 683 00:38:32,356 --> 00:38:35,476 Speaker 1: contrast to almost every other autocratic regime around. So the 684 00:38:35,556 --> 00:38:39,676 Speaker 1: fact that the CIA had managed to recruit Kim Jong Nam, 685 00:38:39,796 --> 00:38:43,556 Speaker 1: somebody who, though he didn't have contact with his brother, 686 00:38:44,236 --> 00:38:47,476 Speaker 1: still had good contacts at the top of the regime. 687 00:38:47,556 --> 00:38:51,316 Speaker 1: He was still in close contact with senior officials, that 688 00:38:51,436 --> 00:38:54,516 Speaker 1: was a real coup for them to have been able 689 00:38:54,556 --> 00:38:58,156 Speaker 1: to get any information from somebody so senior and so 690 00:38:58,196 --> 00:39:02,276 Speaker 1: well connected. So for Donald Trump then to say that 691 00:39:02,636 --> 00:39:04,796 Speaker 1: the US would not try to gather this kind of 692 00:39:04,836 --> 00:39:09,036 Speaker 1: intelligence about a man who's threatening to like send nuclear 693 00:39:09,116 --> 00:39:12,036 Speaker 1: tipped missiles to the Capitol or to the White House. 694 00:39:12,356 --> 00:39:16,796 Speaker 1: You know, can you imagine in your account, Kim Jonguan 695 00:39:16,956 --> 00:39:20,996 Speaker 1: is the dictator who has everything. He's rational, he's reforming, 696 00:39:21,116 --> 00:39:23,396 Speaker 1: he's improving the standard of living for his people. He 697 00:39:23,436 --> 00:39:25,476 Speaker 1: need to do it more, but he's doing it. And 698 00:39:25,516 --> 00:39:30,636 Speaker 1: he's played the President of the United States beautifully. What's 699 00:39:30,716 --> 00:39:34,436 Speaker 1: next for him, and what's the succession plan beyond him 700 00:39:34,476 --> 00:39:37,076 Speaker 1: if any Yeah, I mean, I think now he is 701 00:39:37,116 --> 00:39:42,476 Speaker 1: getting into quite tricky territory because the economic side of 702 00:39:42,516 --> 00:39:48,476 Speaker 1: it is challenging, you know, to try to allow more 703 00:39:48,476 --> 00:39:53,996 Speaker 1: economic development without allowing opening, without allowing more damaging information 704 00:39:54,076 --> 00:39:56,676 Speaker 1: coming into the country. That's something that's going to be 705 00:39:56,676 --> 00:40:00,396 Speaker 1: a real challenge for him because as these bags of 706 00:40:00,476 --> 00:40:03,716 Speaker 1: rice and you know, solar panels come across the border 707 00:40:03,756 --> 00:40:07,356 Speaker 1: from North Korea, so too do USB drives and SD 708 00:40:07,516 --> 00:40:11,756 Speaker 1: cards that contain movies and dramas and music from the 709 00:40:11,756 --> 00:40:15,156 Speaker 1: outside world. Some opening is happening. You show that convincingly, yes, 710 00:40:15,396 --> 00:40:18,076 Speaker 1: So he has to balance that. But he also has 711 00:40:18,116 --> 00:40:22,716 Speaker 1: to try to balance this diplomatic side. He's managed so 712 00:40:22,756 --> 00:40:26,876 Speaker 1: far to string along Donald Trump. He also has the 713 00:40:26,916 --> 00:40:30,556 Speaker 1: South Korean president playing a mediator role. But I think 714 00:40:30,556 --> 00:40:32,116 Speaker 1: you know, Kim Jong und does not want to go 715 00:40:32,276 --> 00:40:34,436 Speaker 1: up his nuclear weapons. There's no way he's going to 716 00:40:34,516 --> 00:40:38,076 Speaker 1: feel secure enough to do that anytime soon. Just to 717 00:40:38,116 --> 00:40:39,956 Speaker 1: push back on that, it would never be sensible for 718 00:40:39,996 --> 00:40:42,236 Speaker 1: him to give up his nuclear weapons. Giving them up 719 00:40:42,476 --> 00:40:45,236 Speaker 1: is an invitation to regime change. Keeping them is a 720 00:40:45,276 --> 00:40:49,076 Speaker 1: guaranteur of regime such it would seem to me as 721 00:40:49,076 --> 00:40:52,076 Speaker 1: close to a truth of political science as one could 722 00:40:52,116 --> 00:40:55,476 Speaker 1: imagine that if you've got nuclear weapons, you don't give 723 00:40:55,476 --> 00:40:57,956 Speaker 1: them up. Kim John was taking over in two thousand 724 00:40:58,036 --> 00:41:01,236 Speaker 1: and eleven as the Arab spring was exploding. You know, 725 00:41:01,316 --> 00:41:05,916 Speaker 1: he saw Mohamma Gadaffi, who gave up his nuclear capability 726 00:41:05,956 --> 00:41:08,636 Speaker 1: and a deal with the United States, dragged from a ditch, 727 00:41:08,716 --> 00:41:12,836 Speaker 1: and you know that must be burned in exactly, burned 728 00:41:12,876 --> 00:41:15,356 Speaker 1: in his brain. So now, I mean, I think he 729 00:41:15,436 --> 00:41:18,516 Speaker 1: does want to make it look like he is willing 730 00:41:18,556 --> 00:41:20,436 Speaker 1: to give up something, and maybe he is willing to 731 00:41:20,476 --> 00:41:24,156 Speaker 1: give up something, some hardware. You know, all of these 732 00:41:24,196 --> 00:41:27,796 Speaker 1: missile launches and nuclear tests have shown he has a 733 00:41:27,836 --> 00:41:31,316 Speaker 1: lot of capability. He's getting all the parts he needs. 734 00:41:31,316 --> 00:41:34,076 Speaker 1: He can retain the capability while looking like he's giving 735 00:41:34,196 --> 00:41:38,996 Speaker 1: up some ICBMs and things there. So the challenge for 736 00:41:39,076 --> 00:41:41,836 Speaker 1: him now is to sustain this, to make the US 737 00:41:41,956 --> 00:41:44,796 Speaker 1: look like they are getting something so that he can 738 00:41:44,796 --> 00:41:48,436 Speaker 1: get something in return. You know, he desperately needs sanctions 739 00:41:48,476 --> 00:41:52,076 Speaker 1: relief because these sanctions have been hurting North Korea like 740 00:41:52,196 --> 00:41:56,476 Speaker 1: never before. How's his health? His health is not great. 741 00:41:56,596 --> 00:41:58,436 Speaker 1: I mean look at him and the times he's been 742 00:41:58,476 --> 00:42:02,796 Speaker 1: coming out in Vladivostok in South Korea in the DMZ there, 743 00:42:03,356 --> 00:42:05,836 Speaker 1: he is not a healthy man. He's a chain smoker. 744 00:42:05,916 --> 00:42:08,716 Speaker 1: He's struggling for breath, and this is one of the 745 00:42:08,756 --> 00:42:11,236 Speaker 1: most puzzling things to me, like, if Kim Jong un 746 00:42:11,356 --> 00:42:14,436 Speaker 1: is concerned about leading for the rest of his natural life, 747 00:42:14,796 --> 00:42:18,036 Speaker 1: he's not doing much to take care of himself, because 748 00:42:18,036 --> 00:42:20,076 Speaker 1: if there's one thing that poses a risk to him, 749 00:42:20,236 --> 00:42:24,236 Speaker 1: it's his health. Thank you very much, enam really super fascinating. 750 00:42:24,396 --> 00:42:27,116 Speaker 1: Thank you for that avenue and window into the thought 751 00:42:27,156 --> 00:42:30,396 Speaker 1: process of somebody who comes across from your account as 752 00:42:31,156 --> 00:42:33,196 Speaker 1: hitting all the right notes. Thank you, No, it was 753 00:42:33,276 --> 00:42:42,036 Speaker 1: my great pleasure to be here. Talking to Anna Fifield 754 00:42:42,036 --> 00:42:45,436 Speaker 1: and reading her book really made me deeply reconsider my 755 00:42:45,556 --> 00:42:47,916 Speaker 1: instinct to think of Kim Jong un as a bit 756 00:42:47,956 --> 00:42:51,436 Speaker 1: of a buffoon. She's made a very convincing case to 757 00:42:51,476 --> 00:42:55,636 Speaker 1: me that he's actually deeply rational. That has major consequences 758 00:42:55,636 --> 00:42:57,796 Speaker 1: for how we think about our interactions with North Korea 759 00:42:57,996 --> 00:43:01,796 Speaker 1: going forward. A rational actor is not to be addressed 760 00:43:02,036 --> 00:43:07,396 Speaker 1: by silly symbols like basketball summits or oversized letters. The 761 00:43:07,476 --> 00:43:09,956 Speaker 1: fact that he uses those symbols doesn't mean he takes 762 00:43:09,956 --> 00:43:12,636 Speaker 1: them seriously. It just means that he thinks that our 763 00:43:12,716 --> 00:43:15,516 Speaker 1: president takes them seriously. What we need to do if 764 00:43:15,596 --> 00:43:19,236 Speaker 1: Kim Jong un is a very careful, thoughtful dictatorial leader 765 00:43:19,956 --> 00:43:23,396 Speaker 1: is meet him with the tools that influence the behavior 766 00:43:23,436 --> 00:43:28,476 Speaker 1: of dictators, that is strength and incentives. Perhaps we can 767 00:43:28,516 --> 00:43:31,516 Speaker 1: give him the right set of interests to encourage the 768 00:43:31,596 --> 00:43:36,796 Speaker 1: development of his own economy and gradually slowly and cautiously 769 00:43:37,476 --> 00:43:41,676 Speaker 1: lead him towards some opening so that the country that 770 00:43:41,716 --> 00:43:44,796 Speaker 1: he runs is no longer the brutal dictatorship that it 771 00:43:44,876 --> 00:43:48,036 Speaker 1: still remains to this day. Even as we do that, though, 772 00:43:48,236 --> 00:43:50,236 Speaker 1: we have to keep in mind that he will be 773 00:43:50,236 --> 00:43:53,396 Speaker 1: thinking about one thing, and one thing only, the interests 774 00:43:53,436 --> 00:44:00,276 Speaker 1: of Kim Jong un. Deep Background is brought to you 775 00:44:00,316 --> 00:44:03,996 Speaker 1: by Pushkin Industries. Our producer is Lydia Genecott, with engineering 776 00:44:03,996 --> 00:44:08,276 Speaker 1: by Jason Gambrell and Jason Rostkowski. Our showrunner is Sophie mckibbon. 777 00:44:08,556 --> 00:44:11,716 Speaker 1: Our k is composed by Luis GERA special thanks to 778 00:44:11,756 --> 00:44:15,276 Speaker 1: the Pushkin Brass Malcolm Gladwell, Jacob Weisberg and Mia Lobel. 779 00:44:15,756 --> 00:44:18,036 Speaker 1: I'm Noah Feldman. You can follow me on Twitter at 780 00:44:18,036 --> 00:44:20,996 Speaker 1: Noah R. Feldman. This is deep background