1 00:00:01,080 --> 00:00:05,280 Speaker 1: Trust me? Do you trust me? Right? Ever lead you astray? 2 00:00:05,519 --> 00:00:08,879 Speaker 2: Tr us This is the truth, the only truth. 3 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:11,920 Speaker 1: If anybody ever tells you to just trust them, don't 4 00:00:12,960 --> 00:00:16,560 Speaker 1: welcome to trust me. The podcast about cults, extreme belief 5 00:00:16,760 --> 00:00:20,319 Speaker 1: and manipulation from two cult hoppers who've actually experienced it. 6 00:00:20,400 --> 00:00:23,840 Speaker 1: I Am low lablanc and I Am Megan Elizabeth and 7 00:00:23,880 --> 00:00:27,400 Speaker 1: today is once again Matthew Remsky, Part two with him. 8 00:00:27,480 --> 00:00:29,360 Speaker 1: He is an author, and he is one of the 9 00:00:29,400 --> 00:00:32,400 Speaker 1: hosts of the Conspiratuality podcast. And Matthew is going to 10 00:00:32,440 --> 00:00:34,559 Speaker 1: talk to us about how he cult hopped from his 11 00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:38,080 Speaker 1: first guru to his second, the moment that disillusioned him 12 00:00:38,080 --> 00:00:40,960 Speaker 1: with the second one, and the cultural patterns, including a 13 00:00:41,040 --> 00:00:43,920 Speaker 1: resurgence of the Satanic panic, that are most alarming to 14 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:46,360 Speaker 1: him as he follows conspiracies and spirituality. 15 00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:49,760 Speaker 3: On the podcast, he'll also talk about how his interests 16 00:00:49,800 --> 00:00:53,400 Speaker 3: now lie and addressing the root economic causes of why 17 00:00:53,479 --> 00:00:57,400 Speaker 3: so many people are looking to snake oil salesmen for answers. 18 00:00:57,440 --> 00:01:01,720 Speaker 3: Some pointers from his upcoming book, Anti Fascist Dad about 19 00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:05,720 Speaker 3: how to navigate the information landscape and why it's important 20 00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:09,640 Speaker 3: to create healthy organizing spaces since all sides of the 21 00:01:09,640 --> 00:01:12,400 Speaker 3: political spectrum are susceptible to cultish behavior. 22 00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:17,080 Speaker 1: Amen's sweetie, Amen, sweetie. I don't know why that was 23 00:01:17,120 --> 00:01:20,119 Speaker 1: the right thing to say. Megan, what before we get 24 00:01:20,120 --> 00:01:22,000 Speaker 1: into it with Matthew, can you tell me you're cult 25 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:24,880 Speaker 1: using up this week? Yeah, mine's suppressing. Are you ready? 26 00:01:25,319 --> 00:01:26,320 Speaker 1: I'm ready? All right. 27 00:01:26,760 --> 00:01:30,479 Speaker 3: We've talked on here before about the online cultish group 28 00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:34,280 Speaker 3: seven sixty four that's now being investigated by the FBI. 29 00:01:35,319 --> 00:01:39,800 Speaker 3: It is a group that's targeting mostly kids online through 30 00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:42,360 Speaker 3: video games. 31 00:01:42,600 --> 00:01:45,440 Speaker 1: What have you? Online spaces, online spaces. 32 00:01:45,560 --> 00:01:50,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, and I went home last weekend and my friend's 33 00:01:51,160 --> 00:01:56,000 Speaker 3: son got targeted by them. Oh no, So my friend 34 00:01:56,040 --> 00:02:00,240 Speaker 3: was calling me and she was like, he is well 35 00:02:00,320 --> 00:02:04,360 Speaker 3: number one. Their entire household was getting swatted. So these 36 00:02:04,520 --> 00:02:08,080 Speaker 3: people got nudes from this child. So now they're in 37 00:02:08,200 --> 00:02:10,600 Speaker 3: possession of child pornography. 38 00:02:10,040 --> 00:02:13,000 Speaker 1: Because they were claiming to be a girl, Like yeah, yeah, 39 00:02:13,040 --> 00:02:14,320 Speaker 1: that's what they do. Okay. 40 00:02:14,480 --> 00:02:18,120 Speaker 3: So then they said that he had a bomb and 41 00:02:18,240 --> 00:02:19,720 Speaker 3: swatted his house. 42 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:22,640 Speaker 1: Like they called in to the like they called nine 43 00:02:22,639 --> 00:02:24,520 Speaker 1: one one, being like there's a bomb that this kid's has. 44 00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:27,960 Speaker 1: Oh my god, So do we know, like, is there 45 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:31,239 Speaker 1: a goal here other than just straight sadism. 46 00:02:32,040 --> 00:02:36,320 Speaker 3: Well, if you can get a kid to kill themselves, yeah, 47 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:39,080 Speaker 3: that seems to be the main goal because then you 48 00:02:39,160 --> 00:02:44,600 Speaker 3: get kind of the like horrible person's Reddit star. 49 00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:47,640 Speaker 1: You know, oh ing, yeah yeah yeah, like the goal 50 00:02:47,880 --> 00:02:50,520 Speaker 1: is yeah, oh my god, that's like the final level. 51 00:02:50,639 --> 00:02:54,720 Speaker 1: That's so fucking crazy. That's so fucking crazy. Yeah, because 52 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:58,880 Speaker 1: like I feel like normally, like I've seen it happen 53 00:02:58,919 --> 00:03:02,560 Speaker 1: where someone online tries to solicit a nude and then 54 00:03:02,639 --> 00:03:05,080 Speaker 1: tries to use it as a blackmail to get money, right, 55 00:03:05,160 --> 00:03:07,600 Speaker 1: and like money is a goal that like makes sense 56 00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:10,120 Speaker 1: at least if you're going to be scamming people that way. 57 00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:16,359 Speaker 1: But for this stuff, it's just straight yes, cruelty, evil sadism. 58 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:20,160 Speaker 1: Like I just like I can't and with children, like can't. 59 00:03:20,320 --> 00:03:24,480 Speaker 1: This is like multiple people that I know now really yeah, 60 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:27,480 Speaker 1: so I thought it was like this like rare thing. 61 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:31,959 Speaker 3: No, oh my god, I don't know. It's just it's 62 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:34,920 Speaker 3: really bad, so awful. Make sure to check on your 63 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:38,120 Speaker 3: kids when they're online. And I don't know, and maybe 64 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:39,600 Speaker 3: we can cut this out or maybe we can figure 65 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:41,960 Speaker 3: out how to say this correctly, because like there is 66 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:44,840 Speaker 3: that fine line of normalizing. 67 00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:45,760 Speaker 1: Like hey, it's no big deal. 68 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:47,920 Speaker 3: It's just your body, Like you don't have to kill yourself, 69 00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:50,360 Speaker 3: because that's kind of what pedophiles do, like you know, 70 00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:52,600 Speaker 3: like just show me your your body is no big deal. 71 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:56,240 Speaker 3: But also being like, hey, if you send a picture 72 00:03:56,280 --> 00:03:57,920 Speaker 3: of your body. 73 00:03:58,120 --> 00:04:00,640 Speaker 1: It is still worth living. You're like, go on, it 74 00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:01,240 Speaker 1: will be okay. 75 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:06,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, find that mental ground up me. I'm trying to 76 00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:12,360 Speaker 3: find it for for the FBI, for them to tell kids. 77 00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:15,840 Speaker 1: No, it's true. It's like obviously no one wants to 78 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:18,279 Speaker 1: normalize any of that, but also like if that happens, 79 00:04:18,320 --> 00:04:21,280 Speaker 1: it's it's like my friend and I were talking. She's like, 80 00:04:21,320 --> 00:04:23,440 Speaker 1: I've seen them naked since it was a baby. 81 00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:26,040 Speaker 3: Like, yeah, you don't have to kill Oh that's so 82 00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:29,080 Speaker 3: say what I guess what I was trying to say 83 00:04:29,080 --> 00:04:30,600 Speaker 3: is that you know, the FBI had to come to 84 00:04:30,640 --> 00:04:33,320 Speaker 3: her house talk to her about it. They're like, they're 85 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:38,080 Speaker 3: just very advanced. They have dead people's phone numbers. They're like, yeah, 86 00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:38,880 Speaker 3: we track the number. 87 00:04:38,960 --> 00:04:41,560 Speaker 1: It's like a so they don't know how to catch them, 88 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:46,760 Speaker 1: so they're evading justice. Yes, Wow, they're like hackers, dude, 89 00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:48,919 Speaker 1: And it's not even hard to be a hacker. Anymore. 90 00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:52,960 Speaker 1: Can we get vigilante hackers to take down those hackers? 91 00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:56,120 Speaker 1: Like there's anonymous when you need them. It's so evil 92 00:04:56,240 --> 00:04:59,000 Speaker 1: that there's so many, there's so many need But they're 93 00:04:59,120 --> 00:05:02,520 Speaker 1: obviously operat within a community. Yes, it's not. These aren't 94 00:05:02,560 --> 00:05:04,680 Speaker 1: just random like it's because they can go back to 95 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:06,640 Speaker 1: their friends and their community and be like, look at 96 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:10,200 Speaker 1: this thing. I did. So like obviously whoever's leading those communities, 97 00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:12,440 Speaker 1: which I know they've taken down a couple of them. 98 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:16,640 Speaker 3: But yeah, it's just interesting that the FBI has now 99 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:17,839 Speaker 3: started calling this a cult. 100 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:20,640 Speaker 1: I mean it makes sense, Yeah, absolutely makes sense. What 101 00:05:20,760 --> 00:05:24,680 Speaker 1: it's the most modern horror horror show. Yeah, like the 102 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:27,680 Speaker 1: most modern version of of like The Manson Family or 103 00:05:27,680 --> 00:05:31,159 Speaker 1: something like. It's yeah, very twenty twenty six. 104 00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:33,680 Speaker 3: The cool thing about my friend is that she was 105 00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:36,400 Speaker 3: able to convey to him like these images, don't send 106 00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:41,400 Speaker 3: them anymore, and like stop, but it's okay. By the 107 00:05:41,440 --> 00:05:43,520 Speaker 3: time I left, I was only there for a few days. 108 00:05:43,520 --> 00:05:45,880 Speaker 3: They were like going to baseball games and oh good, 109 00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:50,520 Speaker 3: you know, so the sun is seemingly handling it well. 110 00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:52,520 Speaker 1: But I'm going to check back in with them, of course. 111 00:05:52,880 --> 00:05:56,279 Speaker 3: Yeah, but thank god, Yeah, yeah, yeah, and thank god 112 00:05:56,320 --> 00:05:59,240 Speaker 3: he wasn't like isolating with it and hiding it and 113 00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:05,040 Speaker 3: oh my gosh, you know, so yeah, few few so 114 00:06:05,279 --> 00:06:08,400 Speaker 3: rumor has it you have a lighter cultius thing. 115 00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:13,479 Speaker 1: Today it's opposite cultius thing. I think that's that's really stupid. Okay, 116 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:16,040 Speaker 1: all right. I went to see a movie the other night. 117 00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:20,320 Speaker 1: It's called Exit eight. Cool. It's a Japanese horror film, 118 00:06:20,400 --> 00:06:22,160 Speaker 1: I guess is the genre kind of thriller, kind of 119 00:06:22,160 --> 00:06:25,280 Speaker 1: horror based on a video game called Exit eight. None 120 00:06:25,320 --> 00:06:26,960 Speaker 1: of this is relevant to what I'm about to say. 121 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:28,279 Speaker 1: I think I know what you're gonna say, and I 122 00:06:28,279 --> 00:06:30,760 Speaker 1: don't know how it's not relevant. But it's like it's 123 00:06:30,760 --> 00:06:33,159 Speaker 1: a very tense movie. There was a moment in the 124 00:06:33,240 --> 00:06:36,560 Speaker 1: movie where like things kind of were really quiet, and 125 00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:40,440 Speaker 1: the whole theater was really quiet, and someone started cracking 126 00:06:40,480 --> 00:06:44,800 Speaker 1: their knuckles really loudly, and I kind of like reacted 127 00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:48,400 Speaker 1: verbally because I was like ew right, And then another 128 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:54,400 Speaker 1: person started cracking their knuckles really loudly, and I'm like gasping, 129 00:06:54,880 --> 00:06:55,640 Speaker 1: and then. 130 00:06:55,960 --> 00:07:00,240 Speaker 4: Like three other people were like group things, Well I'm 131 00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:02,159 Speaker 4: gonna start cracking, and then the person next to me 132 00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:04,599 Speaker 4: starts cracking their neck and their back, and I cannot 133 00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:07,680 Speaker 4: tell you in a horror movie where it's silent other 134 00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:10,160 Speaker 4: than like I can't do it. 135 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:12,280 Speaker 1: And I just don't crack. You don't like that sound? 136 00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:15,280 Speaker 1: Ew No, it's disgusting. I like it. What will you 137 00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:17,240 Speaker 1: do one for us? Right now? I think you got 138 00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:21,840 Speaker 1: them all out? No, you got them. But I was 139 00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:24,720 Speaker 1: just like, amazing. I have never witnessed anything like that 140 00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:29,520 Speaker 1: where uh, something spreads in an audience like that. That's something. 141 00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:32,520 Speaker 1: This is obviously like kind of gross and weird. But 142 00:07:32,600 --> 00:07:36,440 Speaker 1: everyone's like, I'm gonna make the squeamish people uncomfortable by 143 00:07:36,480 --> 00:07:37,920 Speaker 1: also cracking my body. 144 00:07:38,080 --> 00:07:41,720 Speaker 3: That definitely wasn't conscious, for sure. They just were cracking 145 00:07:41,760 --> 00:07:42,240 Speaker 3: their No. 146 00:07:42,320 --> 00:07:49,960 Speaker 1: I I mean I was audibly gasping okay and going. 147 00:07:49,840 --> 00:07:53,720 Speaker 3: No, no, oh no, you're just making me need to 148 00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:54,880 Speaker 3: crack my back so bad. 149 00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:57,840 Speaker 1: It was a small enough theater that like everybody could hear, 150 00:07:58,000 --> 00:08:03,480 Speaker 1: like everybody knew. It wasn't like there's just no way, wait, 151 00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:04,520 Speaker 1: what is what am I thinking of? 152 00:08:04,560 --> 00:08:04,720 Speaker 4: Oh? 153 00:08:04,760 --> 00:08:06,600 Speaker 1: Like a yawn. It wasn't like a yawn like it 154 00:08:06,680 --> 00:08:10,480 Speaker 1: was like a chorus of cracking all at the same time. Okay, 155 00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:16,440 Speaker 1: really horrifying sounds Okay, okay, yeah, anyway, I was like, wow, 156 00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:20,160 Speaker 1: the instinct. If those people are all like, hey, they're 157 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:23,440 Speaker 1: being gross and it's making people feel weird, I'm gonna 158 00:08:23,440 --> 00:08:26,360 Speaker 1: do it too. I think I think a crack is 159 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:28,520 Speaker 1: a yawn. You think a crack is a yawn. 160 00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:31,680 Speaker 3: And honestly, I think I missed my calling to be 161 00:08:31,720 --> 00:08:34,959 Speaker 3: a chiropractor because I can crack people's necks. 162 00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:36,480 Speaker 1: Oh my dogs, like. 163 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:39,240 Speaker 3: You've never like I just look at somebody and be like, 164 00:08:39,760 --> 00:08:41,800 Speaker 3: take their her like head in my hands and just 165 00:08:41,920 --> 00:08:43,480 Speaker 3: crack the shit out of their neck. 166 00:08:43,920 --> 00:08:45,680 Speaker 1: And are you scared of like hurting something? 167 00:08:45,760 --> 00:08:48,560 Speaker 3: No? And I used to do it when I was 168 00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:54,200 Speaker 3: a drinker. Oh drunk megan cracking your neck? Note think 169 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:56,720 Speaker 3: you it's a story about me leaving the Black Cat 170 00:08:56,800 --> 00:08:59,720 Speaker 3: and silver like I'd taken an ambient. While I was 171 00:08:59,760 --> 00:09:03,480 Speaker 3: out drinking, there was eight men sitting on barstools outside. 172 00:09:03,520 --> 00:09:04,520 Speaker 1: I cracked all of. 173 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:09,000 Speaker 3: Their necks, gotten an uber and drove away and my 174 00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:11,360 Speaker 3: friends were like, are you guys okay? 175 00:09:11,440 --> 00:09:16,280 Speaker 1: And They're like, honestly, it felt good, amazing, So I'm lucky. 176 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:20,960 Speaker 1: That's the weirdest. Yeah. Interest and skill, Yeah yeah, I 177 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:23,960 Speaker 1: have no interest in that, nor do I have skill. 178 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:28,720 Speaker 3: Well, we can't all be chiropractors, DL chiropractors. 179 00:09:28,960 --> 00:09:29,880 Speaker 1: That's so true. 180 00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:34,280 Speaker 3: Well, do you know who else's I. 181 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:37,800 Speaker 1: Can't wait to hear where the sentence is going. Do 182 00:09:37,880 --> 00:09:40,640 Speaker 1: you know who else spreads news? 183 00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:41,640 Speaker 4: Wow? 184 00:09:42,720 --> 00:09:47,160 Speaker 1: Pretty good? Oh Megan not the ol Wow, maybe we 185 00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:48,640 Speaker 1: should talk to him. Let's do it. 186 00:10:01,280 --> 00:10:05,600 Speaker 2: When I arrived at Endeavor Academy talk about cult jumping, 187 00:10:06,280 --> 00:10:10,719 Speaker 2: I would say that probably half of the you know, participants, 188 00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:14,760 Speaker 2: half of the members had come from other places. I 189 00:10:14,920 --> 00:10:18,679 Speaker 2: was with Oshow, like I was in Iskan that didn't 190 00:10:18,679 --> 00:10:21,200 Speaker 2: work out. I was in this place. 191 00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:23,640 Speaker 1: So they all had come from other and. 192 00:10:23,679 --> 00:10:26,199 Speaker 2: Not all of them, but enough of them had. And 193 00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:30,280 Speaker 2: that the weirdest part was that that lent Endeavor Academy 194 00:10:30,320 --> 00:10:32,600 Speaker 2: a certain kind of status, like this is the cult 195 00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:35,760 Speaker 2: at the end of the cult roads, right, Like we've 196 00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:37,880 Speaker 2: seen the other places and how they fuck up, but 197 00:10:37,960 --> 00:10:40,560 Speaker 2: like this one totally free. You know, we can't do 198 00:10:40,559 --> 00:10:43,000 Speaker 2: what we want. We're just you know, so funny and 199 00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:50,800 Speaker 2: to be honest, While Charles Anderson, I believe commanded everybody's 200 00:10:50,960 --> 00:10:55,920 Speaker 2: time in ways that wasted a lot of labor hours 201 00:10:56,640 --> 00:11:00,360 Speaker 2: and that he might have been personality disordered in terms 202 00:11:00,400 --> 00:11:05,640 Speaker 2: of his narcissistic needs. I can't really say that this 203 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:09,800 Speaker 2: group was you know, well, it wasn't a violent group, 204 00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:13,160 Speaker 2: as I've said before, but there were a lot of 205 00:11:13,840 --> 00:11:19,520 Speaker 2: benefits to participating in it. And you know, it started 206 00:11:19,559 --> 00:11:23,800 Speaker 2: when I was able to get over the resentment of 207 00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:28,880 Speaker 2: the lost time and the endless demand for money and 208 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:34,199 Speaker 2: labor and resources, and all of the disruptions to one's 209 00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:37,520 Speaker 2: social life and to parenting and you know, all kinds 210 00:11:37,559 --> 00:11:38,280 Speaker 2: of things. 211 00:11:38,520 --> 00:11:39,120 Speaker 1: I was able. 212 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:41,080 Speaker 2: It was really from that experience that I was able 213 00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:44,440 Speaker 2: to understand that one of the things that cults will 214 00:11:44,480 --> 00:11:50,840 Speaker 2: offer is a kind of ersatz socialism that is so 215 00:11:51,679 --> 00:11:57,640 Speaker 2: attractive within our political economy. And they set themselves apart 216 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:00,679 Speaker 2: from the regular world in a way that seems to 217 00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:04,839 Speaker 2: be generous, that seems to be based on mutual aid, 218 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:08,480 Speaker 2: that seems to be based on the notion of the 219 00:12:08,520 --> 00:12:13,400 Speaker 2: fraudulence of private property. And I think that's incredible. That's 220 00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:16,200 Speaker 2: not how it actually works out, that's not what's actually 221 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:19,240 Speaker 2: going on. But when I was able to reflect on that, 222 00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:22,280 Speaker 2: I started to develop a political perspective on why I 223 00:12:22,360 --> 00:12:25,439 Speaker 2: ended up there and what cults actually are and what 224 00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:26,960 Speaker 2: kind of cultural work they perform. 225 00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:32,120 Speaker 1: Right, they're presenting as we share everything, But it's just 226 00:12:32,200 --> 00:12:35,400 Speaker 1: the same as capitalism in that it's just serving the 227 00:12:35,559 --> 00:12:38,760 Speaker 1: people at the top who are in control of everything 228 00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:39,360 Speaker 1: to begin with. 229 00:12:39,800 --> 00:12:45,840 Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, but the recruitment process tells you otherwise in 230 00:12:45,880 --> 00:12:50,400 Speaker 2: a very forceful way, you are free and the world 231 00:12:50,640 --> 00:12:55,280 Speaker 2: and your needs will be provided for. And the number 232 00:12:55,320 --> 00:13:00,160 Speaker 2: of people who came into those groups who were in 233 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:05,119 Speaker 2: deep financial distress, or you know, who had been alienated 234 00:13:05,160 --> 00:13:07,719 Speaker 2: from their families, or who were situationally vulnerable in a 235 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:09,960 Speaker 2: bunch of different ways, there was a lot. 236 00:13:10,280 --> 00:13:10,480 Speaker 1: Right. 237 00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:14,839 Speaker 2: The thing about Michael Roach is that he wasn't that 238 00:13:14,960 --> 00:13:19,840 Speaker 2: interested in those folks, right, He was much more interested 239 00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:21,800 Speaker 2: in sort of high value clients. 240 00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:24,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, Russian and all our exactly exactly. 241 00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:26,959 Speaker 2: I mean he made a big deal of like, you know, 242 00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:30,160 Speaker 2: we're doing dharma in Hell's kitchen, but like you know, 243 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:34,880 Speaker 2: he wanted he wanted nice hotel rooms in Singapore more 244 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:35,520 Speaker 2: than anything else. 245 00:13:35,640 --> 00:13:39,920 Speaker 1: Right, So what was your like final disillusionment with this 246 00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:43,040 Speaker 1: type of community. I mean, you you end up practicing 247 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:46,560 Speaker 1: yoga very seriously, for it's not like you left spirituality altogether. 248 00:13:47,160 --> 00:13:52,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, I think I left Endeavor Academy at the 249 00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:57,800 Speaker 2: same time that yoga was becoming a gig work phenomenon 250 00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:01,840 Speaker 2: that was ideal for mark gally employed and partially educated 251 00:14:01,840 --> 00:14:05,800 Speaker 2: people like myself. So basically it was like I had 252 00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:11,760 Speaker 2: I had a bunch of you know, new age spiritual 253 00:14:12,440 --> 00:14:16,880 Speaker 2: orientalist language and concepts on board that I could pretty 254 00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:23,960 Speaker 2: easily inject into this physical practice in a performative way. 255 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:26,360 Speaker 2: And not that I didn't actually mean it, but I 256 00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:28,680 Speaker 2: was actually good at you know, I was good at 257 00:14:28,680 --> 00:14:32,720 Speaker 2: presenting it. I was pretty successful as a teacher. But 258 00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:35,640 Speaker 2: it was a very natural like, oh, I can do 259 00:14:35,760 --> 00:14:41,320 Speaker 2: this for work, and it is actually a bridge back 260 00:14:41,440 --> 00:14:45,520 Speaker 2: into the quote unquote normal world through the precariot. You know, 261 00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:49,480 Speaker 2: it's not like having a profession that has institutional support 262 00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:51,840 Speaker 2: and benefits and whatever, but it's a place to become 263 00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:53,920 Speaker 2: part of society again, like you could actually work at 264 00:14:53,960 --> 00:14:55,120 Speaker 2: a fitness club. 265 00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:58,160 Speaker 3: Or you could right what prompted you to want to 266 00:14:58,200 --> 00:14:59,720 Speaker 3: go back to normal society. 267 00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:04,840 Speaker 2: I think that I had reached a point where I 268 00:15:04,920 --> 00:15:10,720 Speaker 2: could see that the utopianism of Endeavor Academy was hollow, 269 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:15,280 Speaker 2: that I had enough objective material distance from it to 270 00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:18,720 Speaker 2: be able to say, most of you who are here, 271 00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:24,040 Speaker 2: and this includes me as well, are very broken people 272 00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:27,800 Speaker 2: at the end of their rope with nothing else to do, 273 00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:33,600 Speaker 2: and you are trying to survive on who gets the 274 00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:39,280 Speaker 2: next set of credit cards. This is not sustainable, and 275 00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:43,480 Speaker 2: when Charles Anderson dies, there's not going to be anything here. 276 00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:48,800 Speaker 2: So I could see that it was a failing kind 277 00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:52,680 Speaker 2: of dream. And I think the moment, which just haunts 278 00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:55,280 Speaker 2: me to this day, that I realized that this was 279 00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:57,600 Speaker 2: true for him, And I think you actually kind of 280 00:15:57,640 --> 00:15:59,680 Speaker 2: unconsciously gave me a gift by showing me this. 281 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:00,840 Speaker 1: Is that. 282 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:05,680 Speaker 2: Every day after he gave his sermons, he would go 283 00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:09,000 Speaker 2: up to his sort of green room in this old 284 00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:12,720 Speaker 2: resort that we were using, and he would take private 285 00:16:13,040 --> 00:16:16,320 Speaker 2: meetings and if you got up there, you could get 286 00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:18,760 Speaker 2: in line. Usually it was packed, but for whatever reason, 287 00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:20,320 Speaker 2: one day I went up because I wanted to ask 288 00:16:20,400 --> 00:16:24,560 Speaker 2: him a question, and there was nobody there. He was 289 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:28,200 Speaker 2: in his room and it's in this old resort, so 290 00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:30,000 Speaker 2: they're all hotel rooms, and so you come in the 291 00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:33,800 Speaker 2: door and very poetic too, right, like almost like a 292 00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:36,720 Speaker 2: there's a movie about some weird hotel that's like this. 293 00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:40,240 Speaker 2: It's a Cohen Brothers movie. Do you know the one that. 294 00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:42,600 Speaker 1: I'm talking about, Oh, Barton Fink. Yes. 295 00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:45,680 Speaker 2: Anyway, it was abandoned. It was probably used by the 296 00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:48,800 Speaker 2: mob in the nineteen thirties or whatever. But you come 297 00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:50,680 Speaker 2: in the door and you turn to the right and 298 00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:54,040 Speaker 2: there's the en suite bathroom and he's in the bathroom 299 00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:58,720 Speaker 2: and I said, I said, master teacher, there and he 300 00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:02,080 Speaker 2: says nothing. Turn around the corner and I look and 301 00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:06,600 Speaker 2: he's standing at the mirror looking at himself with this 302 00:17:06,720 --> 00:17:13,840 Speaker 2: expression of utter self loathing, this expression of complete depression. 303 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:17,560 Speaker 2: Like if his internal monologue was audible, it would be like, 304 00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:20,159 Speaker 2: what the hell am I doing here? What am I 305 00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:23,520 Speaker 2: doing with my life? Why am I doing this? Why 306 00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:26,920 Speaker 2: am I doing this? He's looking at himself, and I said, 307 00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:30,280 Speaker 2: master teacher, can I talk with you? And then I 308 00:17:30,359 --> 00:17:35,359 Speaker 2: watched him put his face back on, so he turned 309 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:40,640 Speaker 2: to me and he it's like he crusty, the clowned makeup, 310 00:17:41,359 --> 00:17:46,520 Speaker 2: like googly eyes, like it was a crusty is good 311 00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:49,199 Speaker 2: like because you know how he can like be collapsed 312 00:17:49,240 --> 00:17:52,280 Speaker 2: and you know, have a cigarette hanging out of his mouth. 313 00:17:52,280 --> 00:17:54,840 Speaker 2: But then like when he's on the TV lights are on, 314 00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:55,919 Speaker 2: he sort of brightens up. 315 00:17:55,960 --> 00:17:56,760 Speaker 1: That's what it was like. 316 00:17:56,800 --> 00:18:00,199 Speaker 2: It was that sharp, and I was like, Oh, you 317 00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:04,640 Speaker 2: don't believe what you're doing. You're pretending, You're pretending this 318 00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:07,160 Speaker 2: is not true, this is not a thing. 319 00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:21,919 Speaker 3: I mean, what does that feel like that? Were you 320 00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:24,199 Speaker 3: just shattered on the spot or did you try to? 321 00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:29,280 Speaker 3: I was relieved, I think really I was relieved. Yeah, 322 00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:34,280 Speaker 3: so I can't say that in either circumstance. The disillusionment 323 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:37,760 Speaker 3: was was really shattering. 324 00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:38,720 Speaker 1: Yeah. 325 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:43,440 Speaker 2: I was filled with resentments, but it wasn't like and 326 00:18:43,520 --> 00:18:46,120 Speaker 2: shame because like, oh I spent this much time doing this, 327 00:18:47,080 --> 00:18:50,520 Speaker 2: but it's not like there wasn't a lot of relief 328 00:18:50,560 --> 00:18:50,960 Speaker 2: as well. 329 00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:54,240 Speaker 1: That makes sense. Yeah, and then you went on to 330 00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:58,040 Speaker 1: construct an entire career out of talking about gurus. 331 00:18:58,760 --> 00:18:59,680 Speaker 2: Yeah. 332 00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:05,600 Speaker 1: Power dynamics within communities bring us to your podcast? Do 333 00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:11,760 Speaker 1: you guys cover so many people, groups, topics, conspiracies, like 334 00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:15,320 Speaker 1: such a wide range of stuff on the podcast. Yeah, 335 00:19:15,359 --> 00:19:18,720 Speaker 1: what patterns do you see emerging culturally right now? What 336 00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:21,240 Speaker 1: are you finding alarming? Tell me your perspective as a 337 00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:24,840 Speaker 1: fellow cult podcaster who's you know, a slightly different perspective. 338 00:19:25,359 --> 00:19:29,399 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I think that in the first like 339 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:33,920 Speaker 2: I've been doing conspiratuality for about six years with Derek 340 00:19:33,960 --> 00:19:39,320 Speaker 2: and Julian my colleagues, and I think that in the 341 00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:47,280 Speaker 2: beginning we were similarly focused on the incredibly disruptive effect 342 00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:53,959 Speaker 2: that this kind of wave of spiritual influencers and guru 343 00:19:54,040 --> 00:19:57,920 Speaker 2: types we're having on just the basics of public health 344 00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:02,199 Speaker 2: communication during the first part of the pandem and so 345 00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:05,280 Speaker 2: I think our first couple of within our first couple 346 00:20:05,320 --> 00:20:09,920 Speaker 2: of episodes, we were talking about the kind of conspirituality 347 00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:15,920 Speaker 2: overtones within Mickey Willis's plandemic. We were talking about, you know, 348 00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:22,800 Speaker 2: Kelly Brogan and her kind of Kundalini mysticism explaining, you know, 349 00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:27,640 Speaker 2: why you shouldn't take vaccines. And we saw very clearly 350 00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:34,480 Speaker 2: this intersection between alternative and high demand group based spirituality 351 00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:42,359 Speaker 2: and a kind of political transgression that was very interesting, 352 00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:45,800 Speaker 2: and we could see that it was also tracking towards 353 00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:49,280 Speaker 2: the political right. We could also see that, you know, 354 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:53,720 Speaker 2: QAnon was infiltrating a lot of yoga and wellness spaces 355 00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:58,800 Speaker 2: and becoming very current and very sort of monetizable as content. 356 00:20:59,280 --> 00:20:59,440 Speaker 1: Well. 357 00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:01,720 Speaker 3: It was very surreal because these were the kind of 358 00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:03,800 Speaker 3: people that I was good friends with, and it was 359 00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:08,680 Speaker 3: like the pipeline from you know, Kundalini yoga to suddenly 360 00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:13,040 Speaker 3: not trusting the government at all was a very quick 361 00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:17,560 Speaker 3: slide for people, and it was quite jarring. 362 00:21:18,119 --> 00:21:20,720 Speaker 2: I think we had enough background between the three of 363 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:22,800 Speaker 2: us that we had a pretty good instinct about why 364 00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:27,640 Speaker 2: that was happening, and that when we came across Charlotte 365 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:32,880 Speaker 2: Ward and David Voss's article from twenty eleven called Conspiratuality, 366 00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:37,400 Speaker 2: when Ward pointed out, in particular, because Ward did most 367 00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:39,680 Speaker 2: of the work on that paper, the backstory on her 368 00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:42,320 Speaker 2: is that, like she was actually a believer in this stuff. 369 00:21:42,359 --> 00:21:44,600 Speaker 2: So that's a whole other thing. But wow, yeah, it 370 00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:48,400 Speaker 2: was very strange. But she pointed out that the sort 371 00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:53,840 Speaker 2: of three pillars that Michael Barkin identifies as being central 372 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:58,200 Speaker 2: to conspiratorial thinking, that you know, nothing is what it seems, 373 00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:02,400 Speaker 2: everything has a purpose, everything is connect did are actually 374 00:22:03,359 --> 00:22:07,560 Speaker 2: axioms of New Age spirituality and thought and a lot 375 00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:13,439 Speaker 2: of Eastern philosophy as well. So there's this sort of 376 00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:18,000 Speaker 2: parallel if you're if you've built into your spiritual expectations 377 00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:23,240 Speaker 2: these three axioms around, like you know, illusion and karma 378 00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:29,879 Speaker 2: and you know, interconnectedness, then it would be very easy 379 00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:34,400 Speaker 2: for those under circumstances of political stress to just curdle 380 00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:37,720 Speaker 2: into a kind of paranoia. And that's what we that's 381 00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:41,000 Speaker 2: what we saw happen. But your question was, like, having 382 00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:45,240 Speaker 2: looked at that for so long, like what patterns are 383 00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:49,439 Speaker 2: you most interested in or or or alarmed by? Is 384 00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:51,359 Speaker 2: that is that on? Right? Is that correct? 385 00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:52,360 Speaker 1: Yeah? 386 00:22:52,440 --> 00:23:01,800 Speaker 2: I mean we have covered so many strange, irritating, corrosive, 387 00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:06,840 Speaker 2: you know, grifting personalities, but you know, and I have 388 00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:12,520 Speaker 2: a lot of sort of personal, visceral reactions to many 389 00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:16,679 Speaker 2: of them. My pain points in particular, I have to 390 00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:21,760 Speaker 2: do with you know, spiritual influencers who you know, monetize 391 00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:26,280 Speaker 2: children's issues or maybe even their own children, or they 392 00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:30,800 Speaker 2: turn their you know, super fertility free birth stuff into 393 00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:35,359 Speaker 2: content that is I don't know, resonating with with trad 394 00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:39,280 Speaker 2: wife ideals or whatever. So I have personal things. I 395 00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:46,760 Speaker 2: also personally can't stand the satanic ritual abuse copy paste, 396 00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:53,040 Speaker 2: you know, process that gets transferred onto each new difficult 397 00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:56,320 Speaker 2: to understand things. So like, you know, this is not 398 00:23:56,480 --> 00:24:00,720 Speaker 2: an appropriate literature to use when you're trying to understand 399 00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:03,960 Speaker 2: the Epstein files. Right, Like, that's not going to help 400 00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:07,520 Speaker 2: the victims of sex trafficking. This is just not an 401 00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:11,679 Speaker 2: appropriate thing. So I do have these sort of personal 402 00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:15,919 Speaker 2: alarm points. But I think at this point, and maybe 403 00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:18,720 Speaker 2: this is I don't know if this is me like 404 00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:21,359 Speaker 2: moving beyond the material or just giving up or something. 405 00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:26,800 Speaker 2: I think that it's really more interesting to me to 406 00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:31,720 Speaker 2: look at the overall systems in which this material emerges, 407 00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:38,640 Speaker 2: and in that case, the real sort of villains are 408 00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:44,359 Speaker 2: the tech bros who wind up creating these ecosystems of 409 00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:49,919 Speaker 2: you know, gamified outrage and performativity in which you know, 410 00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:57,680 Speaker 2: misinformation is specifically made or it is incentivized and made sticky. 411 00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:00,320 Speaker 2: And then there are these principles of like audience sure 412 00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:04,440 Speaker 2: and value capture that make a whole bunch of the 413 00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:09,720 Speaker 2: worst aspects of charismatic bullshit just totally frictionless and easy 414 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:10,800 Speaker 2: to profit from. 415 00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:13,280 Speaker 1: So I would. 416 00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:16,000 Speaker 2: Say that the weirdos that I've spent a lot of 417 00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:20,560 Speaker 2: time covering are fringe and minoritarian, and that there's no 418 00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:25,439 Speaker 2: bottom to where they go. I remember having you know, 419 00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:28,359 Speaker 2: about four years in this distinct feeling of like do 420 00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:31,600 Speaker 2: I really need to know what the next you know? 421 00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:34,919 Speaker 2: Piece of bullshit Christian Northrip is putting out is about like, 422 00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:38,600 Speaker 2: do I like it? Is there anything? At a certain point, 423 00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:44,720 Speaker 2: I can feel like I am kind of parasitizing a 424 00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:46,600 Speaker 2: kind of outrage. 425 00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:49,640 Speaker 1: At a kind of at like the symptom. 426 00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:52,399 Speaker 2: Yeah, at the symptom. And it's and that's that's the 427 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:58,040 Speaker 2: best word, is that there's something that it's all coming 428 00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:02,840 Speaker 2: out of U. And you know, that's where I just 429 00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:04,880 Speaker 2: sort of step back and I have a much more 430 00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:09,959 Speaker 2: political analysis with regard to individual figures. Though I'm a 431 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:13,919 Speaker 2: lot more interested in the less weird people now. Like 432 00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:20,439 Speaker 2: you know, there are large scale borderline grifter personalities, like 433 00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:27,399 Speaker 2: for instance, Scott Galloway, who is extremely successful because he 434 00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:33,680 Speaker 2: has many hallmarks of legitimacy and if you look more carefully, though, 435 00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:38,480 Speaker 2: he is really offering a kind of content that is 436 00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:43,520 Speaker 2: manisphere light and gender essentializing, and it continues to be misogynistic, 437 00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:47,000 Speaker 2: and he does it while convincing liberal parents that he 438 00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:49,840 Speaker 2: has a vision for their wayward sons. And I think 439 00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:54,240 Speaker 2: that type of stuff that has enormous reach, that gets 440 00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:58,600 Speaker 2: onto CNN and that gets you know, backslapped in major reviews, 441 00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:03,199 Speaker 2: that's a lot more I would say culturally dangerous than 442 00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:04,080 Speaker 2: the fringe material. 443 00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:06,359 Speaker 1: At this point, I feel like that I have like 444 00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:08,359 Speaker 1: five questions at the same time. Let me try to 445 00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:13,040 Speaker 1: pick one. Okay, So, like the three of you on 446 00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:15,639 Speaker 1: the podcast, I think are doing a really excellent job 447 00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:20,680 Speaker 1: at navigating some very amorphous cultural moments that are hard 448 00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:23,040 Speaker 1: to parse, like what's real and what isn't, and like 449 00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:26,600 Speaker 1: promoting a really healthy kind of critical thinking. You have 450 00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:30,440 Speaker 1: a book coming out about being a father, anti fascist dad, right, 451 00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:33,000 Speaker 1: that's coming out soon, which is obviously like a slightly 452 00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:35,840 Speaker 1: different topic. But I guess I just wonder, like, do 453 00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:39,879 Speaker 1: you have thoughts for like on like a framework for 454 00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:44,800 Speaker 1: how to navigate this what's the answer information landscape? I 455 00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:48,560 Speaker 1: mean yet, like, honestly, like it's so difficult. Incredibly intelligent 456 00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:51,000 Speaker 1: people are just finding it impossible to figure out what's 457 00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:53,520 Speaker 1: true and what isn't, which is making us all more 458 00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:56,800 Speaker 1: vulnerable to people like this who are I believe you're correct, 459 00:27:56,800 --> 00:27:58,720 Speaker 1: symptoms of this greater thing. But like, what the fuck 460 00:27:58,760 --> 00:27:59,200 Speaker 1: do we do? 461 00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:01,240 Speaker 4: Yeah? 462 00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:03,240 Speaker 2: Okay, Well, first of all, I'll say that I've taken 463 00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:09,840 Speaker 2: on a second project because I think that for me 464 00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:15,760 Speaker 2: anyway to spend enough time recording symptoms had to bring 465 00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:19,800 Speaker 2: me to some kind of diagnostic point. Yes, And I 466 00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:25,960 Speaker 2: can't see any of these dynamics evolving or developing or 467 00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:30,639 Speaker 2: accelerating or becoming as impactful as they are without the 468 00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:35,480 Speaker 2: sort of baseline crises of capitalism at play. Like my 469 00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:39,880 Speaker 2: sense now is that, as kind of mentioned before, cults 470 00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:44,480 Speaker 2: are hyper concentrated forms of capitalism that disguise themselves as 471 00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:48,160 Speaker 2: socialist projects. And that tells us something about who's attracted 472 00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:50,880 Speaker 2: to them. It tells us something about why they persist. 473 00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:54,200 Speaker 2: It tells us something about why it's so difficult to leave, 474 00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:57,200 Speaker 2: Because if you have some kind of experience for six 475 00:28:57,240 --> 00:28:59,440 Speaker 2: months that your needs are provided for, and you're actually 476 00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:02,160 Speaker 2: in a community that supported and you know, believes in 477 00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:04,960 Speaker 2: things like mutual aid, then you've never felt that before 478 00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:10,960 Speaker 2: that you know that can be extremely attractive. And I 479 00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:16,640 Speaker 2: also have really come to the conclusion that you know, 480 00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:21,480 Speaker 2: was first iterated by Marxists in the nineteen thirties that 481 00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:26,080 Speaker 2: anti Semitism or forms of any form of conspiracism that 482 00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:28,920 Speaker 2: we can point to, is a kind of socialism of 483 00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:34,960 Speaker 2: fools that when people have to create a story for 484 00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:40,880 Speaker 2: why they are immiserated, why their world is burning. Why 485 00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:43,720 Speaker 2: there's a genocide going on and they can't do anything 486 00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:46,920 Speaker 2: about it, Why they don't seem to have any voting power, 487 00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:52,960 Speaker 2: Why nothing seems to change, and you know, your actions 488 00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:57,280 Speaker 2: politically seem to be meaningless. When people realize that that 489 00:29:57,440 --> 00:30:01,720 Speaker 2: is their condition, they are very vulnerable to being offered 490 00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:03,120 Speaker 2: scapegoat answers. 491 00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:05,880 Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, exactly one. 492 00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:11,040 Speaker 2: And the conspiracy theory that scapegoats Jews or trans people 493 00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:15,960 Speaker 2: or Muslims or people of color or queer people or 494 00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:20,480 Speaker 2: whatever these come to the foregrounds or socialists, yeah, yeah, 495 00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:24,560 Speaker 2: or socialists or communists. Right, So I think, you know, 496 00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:28,600 Speaker 2: just anti semitism is the socialism of fools is the 497 00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:32,280 Speaker 2: is kind of like a guiding light for me that 498 00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:38,480 Speaker 2: when I look at the content that we review for conspiratuality, 499 00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:39,240 Speaker 2: that's my lens. 500 00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:39,440 Speaker 3: Now. 501 00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:44,760 Speaker 2: It's like, this weirdo is offering something, but what is 502 00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:48,800 Speaker 2: it the wrong answer for? Because there's probably something about 503 00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:53,160 Speaker 2: what they're saying about for profit medicine or you know, 504 00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:59,560 Speaker 2: surveillance capitalism or border control that makes some kind of 505 00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:02,959 Speaker 2: sense with regard to being a working person who is 506 00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:06,760 Speaker 2: just trying to make a living. And so yeah, I 507 00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:09,600 Speaker 2: try to I just try to take that analytical frame, 508 00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:14,640 Speaker 2: and that's what brought me to Okay. Also, I think 509 00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:20,680 Speaker 2: we've crossed over through Trump's second election into a fully 510 00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:26,960 Speaker 2: fascist era, and I don't think that sort of for 511 00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:33,400 Speaker 2: me tracking the I think tracking the daily devolution of 512 00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:38,040 Speaker 2: institutions is very important. I think tracking how that's being 513 00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:42,800 Speaker 2: carried out by fascist schools is really important. But that 514 00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:46,479 Speaker 2: takes a lot of time. Yeah, And I felt that, 515 00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:48,880 Speaker 2: especially because I'm a parent, I need to put my 516 00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:52,600 Speaker 2: time into what is the history of anti fascism and 517 00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:55,280 Speaker 2: what does it have to offer to this particular moment. 518 00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:58,600 Speaker 2: So that's how I started, And so you know, to 519 00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:03,760 Speaker 2: speak to your question, I really tried to begin from 520 00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:07,320 Speaker 2: what would I tell my now thirteen year old and 521 00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:11,080 Speaker 2: now nine year old about what it will mean to 522 00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:15,120 Speaker 2: grow up in a fascist era and what it will 523 00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:19,760 Speaker 2: mean to grow up in the conditions of continuing and 524 00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:25,040 Speaker 2: heightened capitalist crisis that even once you know Trump implodes 525 00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:28,880 Speaker 2: and you know Gavin Newsom becomes president, are not really 526 00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:32,160 Speaker 2: going to change that much? Right, Like what am I 527 00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:36,360 Speaker 2: going to say? And I think you're absolutely right that 528 00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:41,160 Speaker 2: it begins with epistemology. And so the way I laid 529 00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:43,440 Speaker 2: out this upcoming book is that, you know, the first 530 00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:47,160 Speaker 2: thing I said was, you know, all of the things 531 00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:51,400 Speaker 2: that I learned in these cults around self regulation and coregulation, 532 00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:55,080 Speaker 2: around you know, being able to do breathing practices, or 533 00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:57,600 Speaker 2: being able to find some sort of emotional piece, or 534 00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:00,760 Speaker 2: being able to meditate in some way, that those are 535 00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:04,880 Speaker 2: really actually important starting points, you know. So I can't 536 00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:11,560 Speaker 2: I can't actually say that I regret anything, because I 537 00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:15,640 Speaker 2: feel like I got boot camp experience in a number 538 00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:19,160 Speaker 2: of spiritual environments, you know, and a couple of them 539 00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:21,960 Speaker 2: were really, really toxic. But that gave me the kind 540 00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:24,240 Speaker 2: of starting point of what I would say to the 541 00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:26,520 Speaker 2: to the twelve year old, which is which is, Okay, 542 00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:29,480 Speaker 2: you're not going to be able to think about this 543 00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:33,920 Speaker 2: unless you can touch grass. And you're not going to 544 00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:36,880 Speaker 2: be able to think about this unless you touch grass, 545 00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:39,280 Speaker 2: and unless you figure out who you can trust with 546 00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:42,560 Speaker 2: regard to how you're looking at the world. And so 547 00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:45,479 Speaker 2: what was cool was I was able to take kind 548 00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:51,360 Speaker 2: of the media studies aspect of conspirituality and how misinformation 549 00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:57,920 Speaker 2: is spread through sort of charismatic methods that are not guardrailed, 550 00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:01,560 Speaker 2: that are not fact checked, that are driven by the 551 00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:04,520 Speaker 2: personalities of the presenters and to say, you know, these 552 00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:07,440 Speaker 2: are the clear signs of bullshit that you can look for. 553 00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:10,600 Speaker 2: And then there's a discussion of, well, how is actual 554 00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:14,440 Speaker 2: knowledge created, you know, in a sort of horizontal and 555 00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:20,960 Speaker 2: communal network. And from there, because my diagnosis for conspiratuality 556 00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:25,160 Speaker 2: is basically Marxist, the rest of the book is, well, 557 00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:27,920 Speaker 2: the middle part of the book is, let's figure out 558 00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:33,319 Speaker 2: what is baking everybody's minds in this capitalist world and 559 00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:38,279 Speaker 2: why it is so easy for people to feel exploited 560 00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:42,359 Speaker 2: and not just feel exploited, but actually be exploited, and 561 00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:44,719 Speaker 2: for that to be the governing logic of the way 562 00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:47,640 Speaker 2: we're organizing our lives. And then from there there's like 563 00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:53,800 Speaker 2: stuff on friendship. There's stuff on you know, scapegoating various 564 00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:58,000 Speaker 2: groups and why that happens. There's stuff on gender relations 565 00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:01,239 Speaker 2: and you know, what it means to actually navigate your 566 00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:05,879 Speaker 2: way through a hyper objectified and sexualized world. And yeah, 567 00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:07,879 Speaker 2: and then there's stuff on spirituality in there as well. 568 00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:12,160 Speaker 1: Well, that sounds awesome. I'm not a parent, but I 569 00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:14,120 Speaker 1: hope to be at some point, and I will read 570 00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:20,239 Speaker 1: your book about being a dead either way, there's so 571 00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:23,200 Speaker 1: much of what you just said. First of all, Like, yes, 572 00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:26,600 Speaker 1: it frustrates me so much sometimes when I'm like, we 573 00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:30,200 Speaker 1: are identifying that there is a problem correctly, we are 574 00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:35,000 Speaker 1: misattributing the source of the problem. Because when we attribute 575 00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:39,160 Speaker 1: it to these like nefarious amorphous forces that have this 576 00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:44,239 Speaker 1: you know power over yea, then there's nothing we can 577 00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:46,799 Speaker 1: do at all. But when we actually like look at 578 00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:49,920 Speaker 1: the structures and look at the symptoms and assess like 579 00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:53,400 Speaker 1: where those oppressions are coming from, where that inequality is 580 00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:56,799 Speaker 1: coming from, who who is actually exploiting us, Like there 581 00:35:56,840 --> 00:35:59,080 Speaker 1: are steps that we can take, you know, there are 582 00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:02,520 Speaker 1: ways that we can politically and resist and whatever. And 583 00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:05,920 Speaker 1: like obviously the conspiracy theory stuff comes with so much 584 00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:10,439 Speaker 1: hate and so much escapegoating and blaming whatever. But also 585 00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:15,239 Speaker 1: it's like it's not actionable. It renders people to like 586 00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:19,759 Speaker 1: feeling powerless alone in their rooms, just like scrolling on 587 00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:21,960 Speaker 1: their phone, when there are actually like things that we 588 00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:25,279 Speaker 1: could do together to build power. Well, I think it's 589 00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:26,240 Speaker 1: scary for people. 590 00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:29,680 Speaker 3: I see a lot of people online being like Epstein 591 00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:32,839 Speaker 3: was a vampire, and it's like easier to think that 592 00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:37,400 Speaker 3: then he's a man who's not that different from a 593 00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:41,640 Speaker 3: lot of people, like it's easier to say you're a vampire, and. 594 00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:44,399 Speaker 2: If it wasn't him, it would be somebody else exactly. Yeah, yeah, 595 00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:46,279 Speaker 2: that we actually live in a system that selects for 596 00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:49,600 Speaker 2: apex predators and why and why not? Yeahright, Like it's 597 00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:52,080 Speaker 2: one of a number of scenarios that can emerge. And 598 00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:54,080 Speaker 2: is there going to be any accountability? 599 00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:54,480 Speaker 3: No? 600 00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:57,880 Speaker 2: Is there going to be full reporting? No, are we 601 00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:00,520 Speaker 2: going to are the victims going to be compensated or 602 00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:03,000 Speaker 2: or even known or found? 603 00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:04,239 Speaker 3: No? 604 00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:12,799 Speaker 2: That is that that is symbolic of peak capitalism. And 605 00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:16,560 Speaker 2: it's not unique, right, it's uh, it's it's not out 606 00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:20,080 Speaker 2: of the ordinary. And and in a way, it's like 607 00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:27,000 Speaker 2: the fascination with metaphysical explanations. Not only as you say, 608 00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:29,719 Speaker 2: both of yours are saying this, I think you're you're 609 00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:33,320 Speaker 2: quite right that when you turn to metaphysics you actually 610 00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:37,360 Speaker 2: create an answer that you can't do anything about. But 611 00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:43,200 Speaker 2: but also like you don't, I think you lose contact 612 00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:48,080 Speaker 2: with the building blocks of where Epstein gets to where 613 00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:52,360 Speaker 2: he is. And you know that's in your everyday politics, 614 00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:56,120 Speaker 2: it's on your city council, it's on the media that 615 00:37:56,200 --> 00:37:57,520 Speaker 2: you put into the world. Yeah. 616 00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:02,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, so when we let politicians be put into obvious 617 00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:05,640 Speaker 1: by billionaires, it creates a system where billionaires of all 618 00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:10,480 Speaker 1: the part and not the people. Yeah. Yeah, we're almost 619 00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:12,279 Speaker 1: out of time. I feel like I could I could 620 00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:13,880 Speaker 1: talk to you about so much. I wondered if we 621 00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:17,000 Speaker 1: could quickly touch on Again, we're just kind of going 622 00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:19,239 Speaker 1: all over the place here, but you did go viral 623 00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:24,200 Speaker 1: recently for your explainers on Caesar Chavez's ties to Synanon, 624 00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:27,080 Speaker 1: and I would like to just briefly touch on that 625 00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:29,800 Speaker 1: if we can, for folks who don't know. Caesars Chavez 626 00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:33,799 Speaker 1: was a very revered historical labor leader, really an icon 627 00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:36,000 Speaker 1: of the left, and it has now come out that 628 00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:40,399 Speaker 1: Dolores Suerta and other women were very severely abused by him, 629 00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:42,400 Speaker 1: and it's been this, you know, a big blow to 630 00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:45,520 Speaker 1: the left, and obviously, I mean what I'm seeing on 631 00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:48,879 Speaker 1: my end is complete denunciation of him. But you talk 632 00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:51,279 Speaker 1: in your videos about the lessons that we can learn 633 00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:53,120 Speaker 1: from this, and I wondered if you could talk about 634 00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:53,600 Speaker 1: that quickly. 635 00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:56,680 Speaker 2: Well, first of all, I kind of made a white 636 00:38:56,760 --> 00:39:02,759 Speaker 2: guy intervention into a very deep Mexican American cultural phenomenon 637 00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:05,040 Speaker 2: that I'm not that familiar with and I just wanted 638 00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:08,040 Speaker 2: to acknowledge that, and I got some feedback, I got 639 00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:11,400 Speaker 2: some criticism on that. I went forward with it because 640 00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:15,879 Speaker 2: the New York Times article sort of had these three 641 00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:19,760 Speaker 2: or four waving red flags that before the news cycle 642 00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:22,120 Speaker 2: was going to close off on them, I wanted to 643 00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:26,280 Speaker 2: point out to say, these are things that anybody doing 644 00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:29,759 Speaker 2: social movement organizing can look out for. These are the 645 00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:34,799 Speaker 2: clear sort of aspects of Chavez's charismatic authority. Here are 646 00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:39,880 Speaker 2: the clear aspects of his usage of disorganized attachment to 647 00:39:40,239 --> 00:39:42,480 Speaker 2: push and pull people towards him and away from him 648 00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:44,440 Speaker 2: and punish them but love them at the same time. 649 00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:48,440 Speaker 2: And then there's this stunning moment in which it looks 650 00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:52,400 Speaker 2: like he's applying kind of new age body work healing 651 00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:56,319 Speaker 2: stuff to a thirteen year old girl who he then 652 00:39:56,360 --> 00:40:01,640 Speaker 2: goes on to assault criminally. So I wanted to flag 653 00:40:01,719 --> 00:40:07,640 Speaker 2: these things because cult dynamics are just not about ideological content. 654 00:40:08,239 --> 00:40:11,680 Speaker 2: They arise in all contexts. We have cults on the 655 00:40:11,760 --> 00:40:15,120 Speaker 2: right wing of the political sphere, there's left wing political cults, 656 00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:18,640 Speaker 2: there's psychotherapy cults. There's cults based on you know, essential 657 00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:24,280 Speaker 2: oils and I just wanted the sort of the very obvious, 658 00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:31,279 Speaker 2: generalizable details to be clear. Now, Chavez is also very complicated, 659 00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:35,200 Speaker 2: because you know, he was actually had a number of 660 00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:41,520 Speaker 2: racist ideas about immigrants coming over the border. He was 661 00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:48,480 Speaker 2: viciously anti communist. He appropriated really the work of the 662 00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:52,720 Speaker 2: Filipino workers who instituted the Great Boycott, which was actually 663 00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:57,040 Speaker 2: his sort of first rise to prominence. Very complicated figure 664 00:40:57,080 --> 00:40:59,440 Speaker 2: that people have complained about for and criticized for a 665 00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:03,960 Speaker 2: long time. But nonetheless, in general terms, he was identified 666 00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:07,320 Speaker 2: as a leftist icon, and I thought it was important 667 00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:12,200 Speaker 2: to show that it's really really good for people who 668 00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:14,680 Speaker 2: want to do any kind of social movement work to 669 00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:18,000 Speaker 2: be able to identify and start to learn about cultic dynamics, 670 00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:21,200 Speaker 2: because they show up, you know, and they show up 671 00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:23,400 Speaker 2: in soft ways, they show up in hard ways. I 672 00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:26,560 Speaker 2: would say, like on the soft left or white feminist 673 00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:30,960 Speaker 2: progressive side, there's a lot of kind of emotional coercion 674 00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:36,360 Speaker 2: and you know, a kind of intensive lucrative workshop economy 675 00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:40,359 Speaker 2: that builds up around people like Robin DiAngelo. On the 676 00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:44,760 Speaker 2: hard left side, there are groups of you know, legit 677 00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:50,120 Speaker 2: Marxist Leninists who they idealize the notion of the intellectual 678 00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:56,440 Speaker 2: vanguard who will lead the workers towards revolutionary consciousness. But 679 00:41:57,200 --> 00:42:00,520 Speaker 2: that really relies on this notion that a couple of 680 00:42:00,520 --> 00:42:03,040 Speaker 2: people or maybe even one person would have some kind 681 00:42:03,080 --> 00:42:06,920 Speaker 2: of mastery of Marxist theory, when Marxism is actually really diverse. 682 00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:12,120 Speaker 2: And then because it's also a utopian ideal that really 683 00:42:12,280 --> 00:42:16,239 Speaker 2: if you're going to be in a tendency like that, 684 00:42:16,320 --> 00:42:21,879 Speaker 2: you really have to be careful because you know, we're 685 00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:25,360 Speaker 2: talking about a group that believes in a kind of 686 00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:28,960 Speaker 2: utopianism that's going to be precipitated by a crisis, and 687 00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:32,840 Speaker 2: the structure there is similar to apocalypticism, right, just full stop. 688 00:42:33,120 --> 00:42:36,480 Speaker 2: Even though even though and this is to say nothing 689 00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:40,560 Speaker 2: of the logic or the sensibility of Marxism, Leninism like 690 00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:42,480 Speaker 2: to just to leave that to the side, because I 691 00:42:42,520 --> 00:42:45,320 Speaker 2: think they might actually technically be right about a number 692 00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:49,160 Speaker 2: of things. But there's a lot of pressures there that 693 00:42:49,239 --> 00:42:51,600 Speaker 2: have to be dealt with really carefully, and I have 694 00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:56,800 Speaker 2: not seen many people use the tools of cult theory 695 00:42:56,880 --> 00:43:02,799 Speaker 2: to look at that material clearly. So one good thing 696 00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:07,560 Speaker 2: about cultic dynamics as they emerge on the left is 697 00:43:07,560 --> 00:43:12,560 Speaker 2: that at least sometimes to a fault. Leftists can be 698 00:43:12,719 --> 00:43:18,160 Speaker 2: obsessive about self criticism and the notion of charismatic control 699 00:43:18,280 --> 00:43:22,920 Speaker 2: and coercion has been an open struggle, well documented by 700 00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:27,960 Speaker 2: Black feminists for example, well documented within you know, struggles 701 00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:31,240 Speaker 2: within the Black Panther Party. You know, there's a number 702 00:43:31,239 --> 00:43:34,920 Speaker 2: of communities that have dealt with this quite directly, and 703 00:43:34,960 --> 00:43:36,960 Speaker 2: it's not like anybody's come up with an answer, but 704 00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:39,759 Speaker 2: at least it's not sort of taken as part of 705 00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:43,000 Speaker 2: human nature and you know, swept under the rug. But 706 00:43:43,040 --> 00:43:45,800 Speaker 2: I would just say that, like the world is on fire, 707 00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:52,239 Speaker 2: and we need people to be in social movements and 708 00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:58,759 Speaker 2: movements for economic and environmental renewal that are robust, that 709 00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:04,800 Speaker 2: are horizontally organized, that are democratic, and we can't afford 710 00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:08,520 Speaker 2: for the problems that arise when we treat each other 711 00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:11,520 Speaker 2: like shit. And so if we have some tools to 712 00:44:11,560 --> 00:44:13,600 Speaker 2: figure out how to prevent that from happening, then we 713 00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:17,040 Speaker 2: really have to take advantage of them, because you know, 714 00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:22,359 Speaker 2: otherwise the glue that fascists have is a lot stronger, 715 00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:27,040 Speaker 2: you know, then the left's ability to survive its own 716 00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:28,600 Speaker 2: cultic problems. 717 00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:31,480 Speaker 1: Right right, It comes back to something that we've been 718 00:44:31,480 --> 00:44:33,640 Speaker 1: saying from the very beginning, which is that all people 719 00:44:33,719 --> 00:44:40,120 Speaker 1: are susceptible to cults. Yeah, all ideology, all religion, all frameworks, like, 720 00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:43,640 Speaker 1: all of these things can become cultic, and it is 721 00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:47,359 Speaker 1: our responsibility to be mindful about those dynamics when we 722 00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:50,880 Speaker 1: do enter community spaces, so that if it starts happening, 723 00:44:50,880 --> 00:44:54,000 Speaker 1: we catch it instead of letting it run rampant and 724 00:44:54,760 --> 00:45:00,480 Speaker 1: evolve into twelve other offshoot cults tends to happen. I 725 00:45:00,520 --> 00:45:02,319 Speaker 1: wish we had more time. Maybe we can have you 726 00:45:02,360 --> 00:45:05,480 Speaker 1: on again anytime. Is there anything you would like to 727 00:45:05,719 --> 00:45:09,160 Speaker 1: conclude with or anything we didn't hit on that seems important. 728 00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:11,400 Speaker 2: I would just say that, just going back to the 729 00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:16,439 Speaker 2: beginning of the conversation, that I believe that people who 730 00:45:16,520 --> 00:45:23,600 Speaker 2: have had intense but perhaps conflictual experiences in religions and 731 00:45:23,880 --> 00:45:31,840 Speaker 2: spiritual communities, everybody will heal and find recovery resources in 732 00:45:31,880 --> 00:45:34,480 Speaker 2: their own ways. There's a lot of luck and chance 733 00:45:34,520 --> 00:45:38,440 Speaker 2: involved with that. But I want people to be aware 734 00:45:38,719 --> 00:45:47,000 Speaker 2: that within religious traditions there is always a radical flank. 735 00:45:48,800 --> 00:45:54,080 Speaker 2: You know, we have plenty of examples of Christians who 736 00:45:54,520 --> 00:45:57,520 Speaker 2: have aided and embedded fascism, or they've been you know, 737 00:45:57,600 --> 00:46:01,120 Speaker 2: squishy liberals. But then we have lots of Christian traditions 738 00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:05,680 Speaker 2: that are anti fascist or revolutionary or that have been 739 00:46:05,920 --> 00:46:08,799 Speaker 2: central to, you know, the attainment of civil rights. We 740 00:46:08,920 --> 00:46:13,920 Speaker 2: have the same thing happening in Judaism. We have, you know, 741 00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:19,400 Speaker 2: an Islamic socialist tradition. I would just say that because 742 00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:21,960 Speaker 2: of the work that I've done over the last six years, 743 00:46:22,160 --> 00:46:30,200 Speaker 2: I think that I have contributed, unfortunately to a general 744 00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:37,680 Speaker 2: perception that religion and spirituality is kind of hopelessly conflicted 745 00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:42,520 Speaker 2: and dysfunctional or it will lead, it will generally lead 746 00:46:42,560 --> 00:46:46,360 Speaker 2: towards bad places. And I want to say that that's 747 00:46:46,480 --> 00:46:52,760 Speaker 2: just not necessarily so that what I've come to study 748 00:46:52,840 --> 00:46:55,800 Speaker 2: and believe and understand, even though I've had so many 749 00:46:56,040 --> 00:47:00,759 Speaker 2: negative experiences in spirituality, is that spiritual and religion are 750 00:47:00,840 --> 00:47:05,279 Speaker 2: downstream of material conditions. And so that means it's just 751 00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:08,920 Speaker 2: like politics. Whatever the material conditions are, you're going to 752 00:47:08,960 --> 00:47:12,920 Speaker 2: have people who worship in ways that support power, worship 753 00:47:13,080 --> 00:47:16,920 Speaker 2: in ways that make apologies for power, and worship in 754 00:47:16,960 --> 00:47:20,360 Speaker 2: ways that resist power. And you can find people in 755 00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:24,120 Speaker 2: that third group. So, if you feel like you have 756 00:47:24,680 --> 00:47:29,760 Speaker 2: been cut off from some sort of religious impulse or intuition, 757 00:47:29,880 --> 00:47:33,520 Speaker 2: if you're missing something, if you feel that you have 758 00:47:33,719 --> 00:47:38,040 Speaker 2: lost some sort of connection that you mourn, you might 759 00:47:38,120 --> 00:47:42,080 Speaker 2: find it again, right. And the example from my life 760 00:47:42,239 --> 00:47:46,960 Speaker 2: is that, you know, the Catholic Church is a shit 761 00:47:47,040 --> 00:47:54,359 Speaker 2: show of imperialism, colonialism, fascist apologies, fascist enablement, and it's 762 00:47:54,400 --> 00:47:58,080 Speaker 2: also the home of liberation theology. And it's kind of 763 00:47:58,080 --> 00:48:01,200 Speaker 2: like the Democratic Party that way, right. It is Gavin 764 00:48:01,239 --> 00:48:05,200 Speaker 2: Newsome to the intern in AOC's office is doing the 765 00:48:05,200 --> 00:48:08,160 Speaker 2: most radical thing in the party right right. And so 766 00:48:09,040 --> 00:48:11,520 Speaker 2: just don't pay everything with the same brush, especially if 767 00:48:11,520 --> 00:48:13,200 Speaker 2: you feel that locks you out of a part of 768 00:48:13,239 --> 00:48:14,799 Speaker 2: yourself that you want to get back. 769 00:48:15,080 --> 00:48:17,360 Speaker 1: I love that so much. It gave me chills. Thank you. 770 00:48:18,960 --> 00:48:21,640 Speaker 1: I guess I tend to get black and white about 771 00:48:21,640 --> 00:48:23,880 Speaker 1: these things as well, and it is nice to remember 772 00:48:23,920 --> 00:48:25,719 Speaker 1: that there is room, there is a place for you 773 00:48:25,800 --> 00:48:28,400 Speaker 1: to still have connection to your spiritual life without it 774 00:48:28,440 --> 00:48:33,719 Speaker 1: becoming some abusive situation. So thank you, Arieh. You're welcome. Yeah, exactly, 775 00:48:33,840 --> 00:48:36,080 Speaker 1: and thanks for joining us. This has been so awesome. 776 00:48:36,320 --> 00:48:39,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, where do people find you? I am on a 777 00:48:39,960 --> 00:48:43,719 Speaker 2: blue sky under my name. I'm under my name at Instagram, 778 00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:46,560 Speaker 2: where I try to do a reel every day. I'm 779 00:48:46,680 --> 00:48:50,480 Speaker 2: on TikTok at Anti Fascist Dad. I'm on YouTube at 780 00:48:50,480 --> 00:48:53,560 Speaker 2: Anti Fascist Dad. If you just google my name, you'll 781 00:48:53,600 --> 00:48:55,799 Speaker 2: come up with like a sub stack, you know, and 782 00:48:55,840 --> 00:48:57,960 Speaker 2: the books that I've done and stuff like that. My 783 00:48:58,040 --> 00:49:01,600 Speaker 2: book is coming out on April twenty sixth, that's called 784 00:49:01,600 --> 00:49:05,920 Speaker 2: Anti Fascist Dad, Urgent Conversations with young people in Chaotic Times. 785 00:49:06,480 --> 00:49:09,160 Speaker 2: And I'm really grateful to my publishers at North Atlantic 786 00:49:09,160 --> 00:49:13,640 Speaker 2: Books for supporting that. And yeah, I'm around. I try 787 00:49:13,640 --> 00:49:15,440 Speaker 2: to answer all of my communications. 788 00:49:15,719 --> 00:49:21,279 Speaker 1: Awesome, perfect, thank you. All right. That is all we 789 00:49:21,320 --> 00:49:24,400 Speaker 1: have with Matthew Rimsky. And I did already ask Megan 790 00:49:24,840 --> 00:49:27,560 Speaker 1: the question last week, so I think I think, yes, 791 00:49:27,840 --> 00:49:30,719 Speaker 1: we all know what I joined. Michael's cull was last 792 00:49:30,719 --> 00:49:34,479 Speaker 1: week's question, and there was a second Guru this would 793 00:49:34,480 --> 00:49:38,320 Speaker 1: you also join the second guruz coll? Probably? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, 794 00:49:38,600 --> 00:49:43,080 Speaker 1: all right, Well, everybody listened to Matthew's podcast Conspiratuality, Go 795 00:49:43,160 --> 00:49:47,439 Speaker 1: get his new book, Anti Fascist Dad, and absolutely and 796 00:49:48,080 --> 00:49:48,759 Speaker 1: listen to us. 797 00:49:48,800 --> 00:49:53,040 Speaker 3: We'll ours come back next week and as always, remember 798 00:49:53,080 --> 00:49:56,720 Speaker 3: to follow your gut, watch out for rad flags. 799 00:49:56,480 --> 00:50:02,799 Speaker 1: And never ever trust me. Ye bye, This has been 800 00:50:02,800 --> 00:50:04,880 Speaker 1: an Exactly Right production hosted by. 801 00:50:04,719 --> 00:50:08,440 Speaker 3: Me Lola Blanc and Me Megan Elizabeth. Our senior producer 802 00:50:08,520 --> 00:50:08,719 Speaker 3: is G. 803 00:50:08,880 --> 00:50:11,320 Speaker 1: Holly. This episode was mixed by John Bradley. 804 00:50:11,480 --> 00:50:14,800 Speaker 3: Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain, and our guest booker 805 00:50:14,920 --> 00:50:15,960 Speaker 3: is Patrick Kottner. 806 00:50:16,280 --> 00:50:18,600 Speaker 1: Our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church. 807 00:50:18,920 --> 00:50:22,960 Speaker 3: Trust Me as executive produced by Karen Kilgareth Georgia Hardstark 808 00:50:23,040 --> 00:50:24,000 Speaker 3: and Danielle Kramer. 809 00:50:24,200 --> 00:50:26,520 Speaker 1: You can find us on Instagram at trust Me podcast 810 00:50:26,640 --> 00:50:28,800 Speaker 1: or on TikTok at trust Me coult podcast. 811 00:50:29,120 --> 00:50:32,200 Speaker 3: Got your own story about cults, extreme belief, our manipulation. 812 00:50:32,560 --> 00:50:35,560 Speaker 3: Shoot us an email at trustmepod at gmail dot com. 813 00:50:35,600 --> 00:50:38,520 Speaker 1: Listen to trust Me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 814 00:50:38,640 --> 00:50:40,200 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts