WEBVTT - Snap's Layoffs and Zuckerberg's New Branding 0:00:02.200 --> 0:00:05.480 From the heart of where innovation, money and power colli 0:00:06.320 --> 0:00:10.880 in Silicon Valley and beyond. This is Bloomberg Technology with 0:00:10.920 --> 0:00:27.400 Emily Jay. I'm Emily checking San Francisco, and this is 0:00:27.400 --> 0:00:30.560 Bloomberg Technology. Coming up in the next hour. Add Snap 0:00:30.800 --> 0:00:34.040 to a list of big tech names laying off hundreds 0:00:34.040 --> 0:00:37.120 of workers. This is two top ad exacts leaves out 0:00:37.159 --> 0:00:40.560 for Netflix. The slowdown and revenue growth being felt across 0:00:40.600 --> 0:00:43.600 the tech industry, and some companies like Netflix are turning 0:00:43.640 --> 0:00:47.960 to ads as the answer. Plus Smark Zuckerberg's conversation with 0:00:48.080 --> 0:00:51.720 Joe Rogan offered a glimpse into his vision or meta, 0:00:51.880 --> 0:00:54.720 but the tough reality is that vision hasn't changed much 0:00:54.720 --> 0:00:59.240 since Facebook oculus back in and people just don't see 0:00:59.640 --> 0:01:02.800 that in to it. And we continue our ed tech 0:01:02.920 --> 0:01:06.080 series after new poll shows less than half of American 0:01:06.200 --> 0:01:09.440 support President Biden student at relief plan. We will also 0:01:09.520 --> 0:01:13.200 chat with the CEO of the text Bookmaker, person who 0:01:13.240 --> 0:01:17.200 thinks n f T S could be a new revenue stream. 0:01:17.240 --> 0:01:18.759 All of that in a moment, but first let's get 0:01:18.760 --> 0:01:21.560 a look at Snap slashing staff, scaling back on investments 0:01:21.560 --> 0:01:25.560 to rain in costs after a broader pullback on ad spending, 0:01:25.800 --> 0:01:29.240 snapping its sales growth this year, Snapchat's parent company, the 0:01:29.319 --> 0:01:31.800 latest in a wave of tech layoffs that has plunged 0:01:31.880 --> 0:01:34.520 the NASDAC into choppy waters. Let's get the latest now 0:01:34.560 --> 0:01:36.920 with Bloomberg's Alex Baringa. So, Alex, this is a pretty 0:01:36.920 --> 0:01:40.720 deep cut we're talking about, and they're cutting a lot 0:01:40.760 --> 0:01:43.399 of businesses that we're generating a lot of buzz What's 0:01:43.400 --> 0:01:45.959 happening here? That's right, It's a deep cut and it 0:01:45.959 --> 0:01:49.600 doesn't just stop at headcount numbers. So snap has its 0:01:49.600 --> 0:01:52.720 core Snapchat platform. They've also kind of rolled out a 0:01:52.800 --> 0:01:56.280 number of buzzy projects like the Pixie drone with which 0:01:56.320 --> 0:01:59.480 flies around and takes pictures, or like a mini games 0:01:59.520 --> 0:02:02.440 within the app. A lot of these projects are falling 0:02:02.480 --> 0:02:05.560 by the wayside. They're either being killed or scaled back 0:02:05.640 --> 0:02:09.000 in the case of something like snaps Spectacles. Now all 0:02:09.040 --> 0:02:11.080 of this has basically come to a head, as the 0:02:11.120 --> 0:02:14.720 company said. The CEO said in an internal memo that 0:02:14.919 --> 0:02:17.560 revenue growth for this quarter is basically going to hit 0:02:17.600 --> 0:02:19.679 single digits for the first time ever since they're a 0:02:19.720 --> 0:02:23.240 public company. Um, So they are looking at the company 0:02:23.520 --> 0:02:28.519 really refocusing on anything that is monetize able on their 0:02:28.600 --> 0:02:32.959 ad business and on any future potential UM places to 0:02:33.040 --> 0:02:38.160 make revenue and culling basically everything als simily, they're also 0:02:38.200 --> 0:02:42.120 losing their chief business officer, Jeremy Gorman going over to Netflix. 0:02:42.160 --> 0:02:45.440 We actually recently had Jeremy right here on the show. 0:02:45.960 --> 0:02:48.799 What do you make of this? Yeah, so this is 0:02:48.840 --> 0:02:50.959 part of this kind of restructure slash re org that 0:02:51.040 --> 0:02:54.880 Snap has. All of Jeremy Gorman's businesses are shifting over 0:02:54.919 --> 0:02:57.840 to a new chief operating officer UM that they have 0:02:58.040 --> 0:03:01.760 promoted from their engineering team him. Look, I think that 0:03:02.080 --> 0:03:04.720 an analyst over at j MP Security summed it up best. 0:03:04.760 --> 0:03:06.359 They said, we don't really know who's in charge of 0:03:06.400 --> 0:03:08.880 the AD business right now. Um. I think it will 0:03:08.919 --> 0:03:11.280 be another bit of this kind of proved me process 0:03:11.320 --> 0:03:14.560 to be sure that leadership there at Snap really can 0:03:15.360 --> 0:03:18.399 show that they can kind of lean into the role 0:03:18.440 --> 0:03:21.400 that Jeremy is exiting. She is a kind of seasoned 0:03:21.440 --> 0:03:24.480 ad executive. She is really strong on the AD sales 0:03:24.520 --> 0:03:27.320 side and has experienced at other big tech companies. So 0:03:27.600 --> 0:03:30.080 they definitely have a bit of a gap there to fill. 0:03:30.360 --> 0:03:32.840 UM and look, that whole business, which is the money 0:03:32.840 --> 0:03:36.760 making arm of Snap will now be reporting into a 0:03:36.800 --> 0:03:40.200 brand new executive new seat. So for investors, they're happy 0:03:40.240 --> 0:03:42.760 to see the cost cuts from the news today, but 0:03:43.040 --> 0:03:45.000 I would guarantee that that's going to be a place 0:03:45.000 --> 0:03:47.320 that they're watching because that is, you know, the bread 0:03:47.320 --> 0:03:50.160 and butter of snaps top line. Now, now there's been 0:03:50.160 --> 0:03:53.080 a lot of tumult in social media, but you know, 0:03:53.240 --> 0:03:58.240 for somewhat different reasons. Obviously meta we reported yesterday they're 0:03:58.280 --> 0:04:00.400 laying off a bunch of contractors, also doing this big 0:04:00.440 --> 0:04:03.040 pivot to the metaverse. Twitter is embroiled in this lawsuit 0:04:03.480 --> 0:04:08.120 with Elon Musk. You've got TikTok, you know, fighting these 0:04:08.200 --> 0:04:12.520 content moderation wars, but kind of winning on the engagement side. 0:04:12.520 --> 0:04:18.159 Can you compare snaps fortunes with these other competitive platforms. Yeah, 0:04:18.240 --> 0:04:21.400 I think it's really interesting, Emily. Snap has really kind 0:04:21.400 --> 0:04:25.920 of benefited from its reputation and its prowess with younger generations. Um, 0:04:26.000 --> 0:04:29.120 that is really when advotagers go there to spend money 0:04:29.200 --> 0:04:31.440 like that is one of the things that's top of mind. 0:04:31.480 --> 0:04:35.240 Snap owns the younger generations. Well, now you have TikTok 0:04:35.240 --> 0:04:39.359 on the scene, who has also really done well to 0:04:39.480 --> 0:04:44.360 win over the downloads and the business of those younger audiences. 0:04:44.400 --> 0:04:46.880 So you have TikTok kind of leaning in and pushing 0:04:46.920 --> 0:04:49.920 in on Snap um and and kind of threatening their 0:04:49.960 --> 0:04:53.000 core user base. And then you have places, as you mentioned, 0:04:53.000 --> 0:04:55.679 like Meta, and I would also throw Google its search 0:04:55.720 --> 0:04:58.240 and YouTube businesses in the mix there too, which are 0:04:58.279 --> 0:05:01.760 a bit more I would say to handable for advertisers. 0:05:01.800 --> 0:05:04.159 So if you're looking at a where is the money 0:05:04.200 --> 0:05:07.360 going basis, we've seen to the last a few earning cycles, 0:05:07.400 --> 0:05:10.520 it's not really going to Snap. TikTok's a private company, 0:05:10.600 --> 0:05:14.719 so we will see Meta and YouTube. Google seem to 0:05:14.760 --> 0:05:16.840 be continuing to kind of break in the cash. So 0:05:17.120 --> 0:05:19.840 it's definitely a fight out and I would toss Instagram 0:05:19.880 --> 0:05:22.279 there in the mix too as well. Um probably somewhere 0:05:22.279 --> 0:05:25.200 in the middle. It's definitely a battle that is raging 0:05:25.240 --> 0:05:26.800 that will we pay a lot of attention to. But 0:05:26.839 --> 0:05:29.560 when it comes to Snap again, like this kind of 0:05:29.800 --> 0:05:33.440 podium they've been on, of owning gen Z, of owning 0:05:33.480 --> 0:05:36.960 the teens and twentysomethings, I think that's really coming under 0:05:37.000 --> 0:05:39.920 threat in a way that perhaps they haven't seen before. 0:05:39.960 --> 0:05:43.320 From the likes of fakesbook Instagram or YouTube. All right, 0:05:43.600 --> 0:05:47.640 Alex Barenka, thank you cover social media for us. Appreciate 0:05:47.680 --> 0:05:50.880 it well. As we mentioned those two Snap executives going 0:05:50.960 --> 0:05:54.039 from snaps ad business to help Netflix launch their ad 0:05:54.080 --> 0:05:58.080 supported platform, Jeremy Gorman, as we mentioned, along with the 0:05:58.120 --> 0:06:02.359 president of ad Sales Peter Naylor, joining Netflix in September. 0:06:02.400 --> 0:06:06.320 Here to tell us more about this, Bloomberg's Lucashaw So Lucas, 0:06:06.360 --> 0:06:10.279 how big a coup is this for Netflix? I mean, look, 0:06:10.279 --> 0:06:13.039 they took two of the top executives in the digital 0:06:13.120 --> 0:06:16.680 ad business right now, Peter Naylor in particular, the Jeremy 0:06:16.680 --> 0:06:19.360 Gorman I believe more senior at Snap. Peter Naylor helped 0:06:19.360 --> 0:06:22.400 build the ad business at Hulu, which, other than YouTube, 0:06:22.440 --> 0:06:25.000 is really the biggest digital video ad business in the US. 0:06:25.440 --> 0:06:28.440 Netflix have spent the past couple of months, if not longer, 0:06:28.560 --> 0:06:31.240 looking for some executives to to lead the charge for 0:06:31.279 --> 0:06:33.240 them as they move into advertising, and now they have, 0:06:33.520 --> 0:06:36.760 you know, two really solid people. So at this point, 0:06:36.800 --> 0:06:39.719 what do we know about Netflix's ad supported to here, 0:06:39.839 --> 0:06:44.960 how it will compare it to Disney's add supported tier, etcetera. Uh, 0:06:45.000 --> 0:06:48.440 we know that it's going to debut either in the 0:06:48.480 --> 0:06:50.880 final three months of this year likely and in November, 0:06:50.880 --> 0:06:54.080 December or at the very beginning of next year. Uh. 0:06:54.120 --> 0:06:57.360 My reporting has suggested that it will be cost about 0:06:57.400 --> 0:06:59.960 half as much as the basic Netflix here, so think 0:07:00.120 --> 0:07:03.520 like eight bucks nine bucks. There will be advertising in 0:07:03.640 --> 0:07:06.880 some programming, but not all, not advertising and kids programming, 0:07:06.880 --> 0:07:10.080 at least not first not advertising in new movies. Uh 0:07:10.080 --> 0:07:12.680 And they'll be ads before and during some programs, but 0:07:12.760 --> 0:07:15.760 not after. And they're aiming for about four minutes of 0:07:15.800 --> 0:07:18.800 advertising per hour. You brought up Disney the four minute 0:07:19.120 --> 0:07:22.240 Netflix or like Disney and like HBO, Max is aiming 0:07:22.280 --> 0:07:25.160 for a low advertising load and they can charge a 0:07:25.160 --> 0:07:27.840 lot for those advertisements. They don't want to have much 0:07:27.840 --> 0:07:29.960 more than four minutes per hour. They don't want to 0:07:29.960 --> 0:07:32.640 make it uncomfortable for the viewers. That's much easier said 0:07:32.640 --> 0:07:34.240 than done. And we'll have a better sense of what 0:07:34.280 --> 0:07:36.840 this looks and feels like when these services come out 0:07:37.120 --> 0:07:39.840 at the end of the year. A couple interesting headlines 0:07:39.920 --> 0:07:43.600 out from Dow Jones, One that Disney is exploring an 0:07:43.600 --> 0:07:49.080 Amazon Prime like membership program to offer various discounts and perks. 0:07:49.120 --> 0:07:52.840 Another that Netflix is looking to charge brands premium pricing 0:07:53.160 --> 0:07:57.560 for this ad supported tier, which is not necessarily a surprise. 0:07:58.080 --> 0:08:00.280 What do you make of these? Yeah, I mean the 0:08:01.080 --> 0:08:04.680 Disney News I think makes a lot of sense. They 0:08:04.720 --> 0:08:07.920 already have a bundle for their three streaming services, and 0:08:07.960 --> 0:08:11.120 they also will charge fans of their parts for what's 0:08:11.120 --> 0:08:13.480 called an annual pass, where you can pay one set 0:08:13.520 --> 0:08:15.600 price and get to go again and again, with the 0:08:15.600 --> 0:08:18.280 exception of certain days. Like Disney is the one media 0:08:18.320 --> 0:08:21.200 company that has a truly loyal fan base. They love 0:08:21.280 --> 0:08:24.040 the brand, they love the characters. Uh, and so them 0:08:24.120 --> 0:08:27.400 trying to create one bundle for their super fan that 0:08:27.440 --> 0:08:29.800 people can pay and reduce churn or the number of 0:08:29.840 --> 0:08:33.400 cancelations for for some of their services makes all the 0:08:33.400 --> 0:08:36.200 sense in the world, you know. As for Netflix, I don't. 0:08:36.480 --> 0:08:38.920 I honestly don't think that's really news. Both the Journal 0:08:39.000 --> 0:08:41.280 and we have reported before that they're looking to charge 0:08:41.320 --> 0:08:45.360 medium prices. All right, that would make sense Bloomberg's look 0:08:45.400 --> 0:08:49.560 a shaw, thank you very much. Meantime, Twitter has subpoena 0:08:49.559 --> 0:08:52.600 at Stanford University as part of its legal battle with 0:08:52.840 --> 0:08:57.280 Elon Musk. Yes, the university. I'll tell you why. Next, 0:08:57.600 --> 0:09:10.360 this is Bloomberg. Let's get the latest now on the 0:09:10.440 --> 0:09:13.600 Musk Twitter trial. The billionaire asking for more time again, 0:09:13.800 --> 0:09:17.040 this time to dissect the claims of a whistle blower. 0:09:17.080 --> 0:09:21.000 And also Elon Musk wants to talk with his alma mater, 0:09:21.080 --> 0:09:24.960 and that is Stanford University here to explain Bloomberg's Jeff Feely. So, Jeff, 0:09:25.040 --> 0:09:26.880 let me get this straight. We thought it was Twitter 0:09:27.120 --> 0:09:31.680 subpoena NG Stanford, but actually it's Musk subpoena NG Stanford. 0:09:32.120 --> 0:09:36.240 Why would Musk? Why would Musk want information from Stanford 0:09:36.280 --> 0:09:40.520 University about the Twitter deal? Okay, so we don't know 0:09:40.640 --> 0:09:43.400 for sure, but one of the Twitter board members, a 0:09:43.600 --> 0:09:47.840 Dr Lee, works at Stanford and the is one of 0:09:47.880 --> 0:09:52.079 the AI experts at Stanford. So it could be that. Uh, 0:09:52.120 --> 0:09:54.400 it also could be wants to check and see who 0:09:54.480 --> 0:09:58.280 she had conversations with among her colleagues about, you know, 0:09:58.400 --> 0:10:04.680 problems with the deal. Uh, you know where exactly could 0:10:04.679 --> 0:10:08.680 this lead? Well, I mean, what's going on here is 0:10:08.720 --> 0:10:11.360 both sides are trying to put together their cases for 0:10:11.400 --> 0:10:16.520 the October seventeenth trial, and Mr Musk wants to know what, 0:10:16.640 --> 0:10:20.720 you know, what conversations the Twitter board members have had 0:10:20.760 --> 0:10:25.079 with people about this. Obviously, looking for material that would 0:10:25.840 --> 0:10:30.480 you help him justify walking away? Interesting? Okay, Well, you know, 0:10:30.520 --> 0:10:36.120 obviously this case is changing by the minute. Yesterday we 0:10:36.240 --> 0:10:38.280 learned Elon Musk wanted to try to get the trial 0:10:38.400 --> 0:10:42.240 pushed to November. Now he's potentially trying to get it 0:10:42.280 --> 0:10:46.720 pushed even further out to December. What exactly do we 0:10:46.800 --> 0:10:51.560 know about what Musk is asking for at this point. Well, 0:10:52.400 --> 0:10:55.360 they're asking to push the trial to late November early 0:10:55.440 --> 0:10:59.760 December to give themselves and the Twitter folks more time 0:11:00.320 --> 0:11:04.079 to dig into the allegations of the whistleblower that have emerged, 0:11:04.800 --> 0:11:09.319 and you know, people need to find out whether his 0:11:09.600 --> 0:11:14.360 allegations are substantial or sour grapes. This gentleman was fired 0:11:14.400 --> 0:11:18.319 from Twitter ashead of its computer security, uh for what 0:11:18.360 --> 0:11:22.280 the company says, we're performance issues. So it's gonna take 0:11:22.320 --> 0:11:26.000 some time to really dig into this, and they're running 0:11:26.040 --> 0:11:31.400 out of time in terms of discovery. Late November to 0:11:31.440 --> 0:11:34.520 state at the obvious is Thanksgiving in the United States, 0:11:34.679 --> 0:11:39.840 So that you know, leads me to potentially December. What's 0:11:39.880 --> 0:11:42.960 the likelihood in your view that this case, this child 0:11:43.000 --> 0:11:46.560 gets moved um and when when will it judge make 0:11:46.559 --> 0:11:49.160 a decision on this, Well, we don't know when Judge 0:11:49.240 --> 0:11:52.320 McCormick will rule, but most people believe she's going to 0:11:52.360 --> 0:11:57.240 grant more time because the emergence of this gentleman was 0:11:57.280 --> 0:11:59.760 a surprise, and there's some inkling there could be other 0:12:00.040 --> 0:12:02.800 so blowers coming down the plate, so there could be 0:12:02.840 --> 0:12:05.880 a need for, you know, to push it back in 0:12:05.960 --> 0:12:10.440 the interests of justice. So here's the question. Elon Musk, 0:12:11.120 --> 0:12:14.840 you know, said he was gonna buy Twitter with no diligence. 0:12:15.120 --> 0:12:17.680 That's on Elon Musk. Why is it all of the 0:12:17.760 --> 0:12:22.520 Why are these additional claims actually relevant? Well, the whistle 0:12:22.600 --> 0:12:28.680 blower raised issues about lacks computer security and privacy concerns. 0:12:29.640 --> 0:12:33.559 If Twitter did not disclose those things to Mr Musk 0:12:34.280 --> 0:12:36.560 as part of the deal, and even though he didn't 0:12:36.600 --> 0:12:41.400 do due diligence, they still have legal duties to disclose 0:12:41.559 --> 0:12:46.360 things like that. It's called representations and warranties. And if 0:12:46.360 --> 0:12:49.240 the judge finds that they should have disclosed those things 0:12:49.280 --> 0:12:54.600 that didn't, it can sink the deal. All right, Uh, 0:12:54.760 --> 0:12:57.600 lots going on here at Jeff, really appreciate you continuing 0:12:57.640 --> 0:12:59.679 to give us the play by play and help us 0:12:59.679 --> 0:13:03.079 make sound to all these moves, bloombergs Jeff Feely in Delaware, 0:13:03.640 --> 0:13:13.520 very busy guy for us. Thank you. You will be 0:13:13.559 --> 0:13:15.480 able to have this experience in the future where like 0:13:16.360 --> 0:13:19.640 you're sitting in a meeting, um, and you know your 0:13:19.679 --> 0:13:22.319 wife text too, and it pops up in the corner 0:13:22.320 --> 0:13:24.800 of your glasses and you want to respond, but you 0:13:24.800 --> 0:13:26.440 don't want to pull out your phone because that's kind 0:13:26.440 --> 0:13:29.480 of rude, right, UM, So you just kind of like 0:13:30.280 --> 0:13:32.160 don't twitch your wrist a little bit, maybe like this 0:13:32.320 --> 0:13:35.719 like some super discreet motion, um that no one even 0:13:35.760 --> 0:13:37.560 knows you're doing it, and you just like send a message. 0:13:38.280 --> 0:13:42.560 And that seems like a massive distraction. I mean people 0:13:42.559 --> 0:13:45.040 are already distracted by their phones, Like when people get 0:13:45.040 --> 0:13:47.079 a text messages and they're like, hang on a second, 0:13:47.080 --> 0:13:49.760 I just can't answer this real quick. And you're like okay, 0:13:49.880 --> 0:13:51.640 and you're sitting there having lunch with someone and they're 0:13:51.640 --> 0:13:53.439 not talking to you anymore because they looking at their phone. 0:13:53.640 --> 0:13:55.240 But now they're going to be looking at these a 0:13:55.480 --> 0:14:00.760 R glasses and just thinking out text messages. Just some 0:14:01.080 --> 0:14:04.560 of Mark Zuckerberg's very lengthy conversation on Joe Rogan's popular 0:14:04.600 --> 0:14:09.079 podcast last week, Three Hours The interview was an opportunity 0:14:09.120 --> 0:14:13.000 for Zuckerberg to defend Meta's pivot to virtual and augmented reality. 0:14:13.080 --> 0:14:16.520 But as you just heard with Rogan's rebuttal, Zuckerberg's vision 0:14:16.559 --> 0:14:20.040 is facing a tough reality here to discuss Max Chafkin. 0:14:20.280 --> 0:14:24.880 So there's a lot here, Max, But overall, what do 0:14:24.920 --> 0:14:29.000 you make of how Mark Zuckerberg portrayed his vision and 0:14:29.040 --> 0:14:34.040 how Joe Rogan reacted to it? Well, So, the thing 0:14:34.080 --> 0:14:36.640 that was just striking to me, as somebody's followed this 0:14:36.680 --> 0:14:40.200 for a long time, is how little Mark Zuckerberg's v R, 0:14:40.360 --> 0:14:43.080 a R metaverse, whatever you want to call it, how 0:14:43.200 --> 0:14:46.680 little that vision has changed. Um, you know, we've kind 0:14:46.680 --> 0:14:49.520 of over the last six months or so been talking 0:14:49.560 --> 0:14:52.440 about it as if it's this, you know, brand new thing. Yeah, 0:14:52.480 --> 0:14:55.040 they they're spending billions of dollars um and kind of 0:14:55.080 --> 0:14:58.200 forgetting that Facebook purchased Oculus, you know, the company that 0:14:58.320 --> 0:15:02.360 seeded the VR effort in it has spent you know, 0:15:02.600 --> 0:15:05.600 even before spending ten billion dollars one, it had spent 0:15:05.800 --> 0:15:10.080 billions and billions of dollars marketing several successive devices. Um, 0:15:10.520 --> 0:15:12.840 you know, they had a Super Bowl at in February 0:15:12.920 --> 0:15:15.680 and really has gotten not a whole lot of traction, 0:15:15.840 --> 0:15:18.440 all things considered, And I think part of the reason 0:15:18.520 --> 0:15:21.200 is what we just heard that this pitch, which is 0:15:21.280 --> 0:15:24.200 that you're gonna kind of want to put Facebook um 0:15:24.280 --> 0:15:27.520 inside of virtual reality, uh and and strap it to 0:15:27.560 --> 0:15:31.120 your face, is just not that compelling, and they and 0:15:31.160 --> 0:15:33.440 they really still haven't figured out a way to to 0:15:33.520 --> 0:15:36.400 sell it. And and for three hours with Joe Rogan, 0:15:36.520 --> 0:15:40.080 we saw Zuckerberg kind of working, you know, basically trying 0:15:40.080 --> 0:15:42.360 to his every trick he could think of to to 0:15:42.480 --> 0:15:45.000 sell it, and and you know, coming up short, I 0:15:45.040 --> 0:15:49.280 would say, now I've actually heard that texting example from 0:15:49.440 --> 0:15:52.520 Zuckerberg before about his wife setting in a text and 0:15:52.520 --> 0:15:55.840 how VR could be cool, uh to help him check 0:15:55.880 --> 0:15:59.400 that text without other people noticing. This one was new 0:15:59.560 --> 0:16:03.760 to me. Take a listen. There's something that's just so 0:16:05.160 --> 0:16:11.400 primal um about it that's I don't I don't know, 0:16:11.560 --> 0:16:14.120 it's it's and I've since then, I've just introduced a 0:16:14.120 --> 0:16:15.680 bunch of my friends to it, and that's been really 0:16:15.680 --> 0:16:17.880 fun because now it's like we're trained together and we 0:16:18.000 --> 0:16:19.920 just like wrestled together and just I don't know, there's 0:16:19.960 --> 0:16:23.080 like a certain intensity to it that I um that 0:16:23.200 --> 0:16:28.680 I I like h Now I understand maybe Zacherberg's trying 0:16:28.680 --> 0:16:31.640 to show a little bit more of his human side. Um, 0:16:31.680 --> 0:16:36.440 but there's a a sort of naivete there or or 0:16:36.680 --> 0:16:41.560 a falling flat I might say, Yeah, you know, one 0:16:41.600 --> 0:16:45.600 of the most successful tech people in the world bringing 0:16:45.640 --> 0:16:48.600 the cringe to Joe Rogan. Um. He maybe it wasn't 0:16:48.600 --> 0:16:50.760 clear if if people were just coming to it cold, 0:16:50.760 --> 0:16:53.560 but he's talking about jiu jitsu. Mark Zuckerberg has gotten 0:16:53.560 --> 0:16:57.640 into I guess, uh, combat sports. Um. And he was 0:16:57.680 --> 0:17:00.920 trying to bond with Joe Rogan and again I think, um, 0:17:00.960 --> 0:17:03.960 you know kind of jokes aside with this just chows 0:17:04.119 --> 0:17:08.040 like this company is trying everything they can to connect 0:17:08.080 --> 0:17:10.800 with people. So you know they they again, they tried 0:17:10.840 --> 0:17:14.320 Super Bowl ads, they tried you know, demos, and now 0:17:14.440 --> 0:17:17.320 Zuckerberg's you know, sort of trying on this like alpha male, 0:17:17.800 --> 0:17:20.600 you know, I'm into fighting sports thing to to convince 0:17:20.640 --> 0:17:23.800 Joe Rogan's audience, which is substantial. I mean, Joe Rogan 0:17:24.080 --> 0:17:26.320 has you know, the most successful podcast in the world 0:17:26.600 --> 0:17:30.040 to you know, give give the you know, Oculus or 0:17:30.160 --> 0:17:36.040 or or the Facebook b our Devices shop. Meantime, let's 0:17:36.040 --> 0:17:38.639 talk about what he had to say about sort of 0:17:38.680 --> 0:17:42.720 screens and television and how he imagines um, all of 0:17:42.760 --> 0:17:47.280 these different screens and interfaces working together. Take a listen 0:17:47.280 --> 0:17:49.879 to what he had to say. I just want the 0:17:49.880 --> 0:17:52.160 time that people spend with screens to be better, because 0:17:52.160 --> 0:17:54.400 I mean, today, so much of it just like you're 0:17:54.440 --> 0:17:58.480 just sitting around and in this like beta state consuming stuff. 0:17:58.480 --> 0:18:02.800 And I think that that's like, oh h so, I 0:18:02.800 --> 0:18:08.160 wonder what he means by beta state there, and if 0:18:08.200 --> 0:18:13.600 his vision of screens is actually what people want. Yeah, 0:18:13.640 --> 0:18:16.200 it's it's hard to understand if you're trying to kind 0:18:16.200 --> 0:18:18.800 of connect with the masses and convince them that this 0:18:18.840 --> 0:18:21.040 new product you have is great, um that you want 0:18:21.080 --> 0:18:24.400 to start out by sort of um, you know, dissing uh, 0:18:24.640 --> 0:18:27.080 what's basically the most popular entertainment medium in the world. 0:18:27.280 --> 0:18:29.639 I think what he was trying to say is that 0:18:29.720 --> 0:18:32.879 television is passive, and he was sort of using this 0:18:33.000 --> 0:18:37.320 kind of Joe Rogan verse alpha meaning active, strong manly, 0:18:37.400 --> 0:18:41.119 passive meaning uh, some beta meaning passive or almost effeminine 0:18:41.119 --> 0:18:43.639 to refer to television. But it really is kind of 0:18:43.680 --> 0:18:46.280 a head scratcher, and I just think it it just 0:18:46.320 --> 0:18:48.879 goes to show how kind of all over the place 0:18:48.960 --> 0:18:51.840 the marketing has been here and and it's it's worked 0:18:52.160 --> 0:18:55.920 in certain ways, right like the the these hardware devices 0:18:55.920 --> 0:18:59.280 have sold reasonably well as as kind of video game consoles. 0:18:59.280 --> 0:19:01.960 But in terms of trying to broaden this out, making 0:19:01.960 --> 0:19:04.440 this something that you know, regular people are going to 0:19:04.600 --> 0:19:07.960 use for meetings or or or for travel or something, 0:19:08.000 --> 0:19:12.840 I mean, really, we're not anywhere. All right, Well, if 0:19:12.840 --> 0:19:15.560 you have three hours, uh, that's just Mark Zuckerberg on 0:19:15.720 --> 0:19:17.640 Joe Rogan. If you want to hear more of Bloomberg's 0:19:17.640 --> 0:19:20.720 Max Chafkin, who also wrote about it Bloomberg Business Week. 0:19:20.840 --> 0:19:31.800 Appreciate your thoughts. Welcome back to Bloomberg Technology. I'm Emily 0:19:31.840 --> 0:19:34.760 Check in San Francisco. We are continuing our education tech 0:19:34.800 --> 0:19:38.760 coverage as we enter the school season. President Biden's unprecedented 0:19:38.760 --> 0:19:43.080 student loan cancelations getting some mixed reactions. A new warning 0:19:43.119 --> 0:19:47.360 consult Political surveys shows only forty eight percent of American 0:19:47.520 --> 0:19:51.400 support Biden's level of forgiveness. Who to discussed Sarah Leaving, 0:19:51.520 --> 0:19:55.639 CEO of the investing in financial planning platform Betterment, So 0:19:57.400 --> 0:20:02.840 not necessarily a popular plan um not everyone supporting this 0:20:03.000 --> 0:20:05.080 and a lot of debate. Sarah, where do you stand? 0:20:06.680 --> 0:20:09.560 So I think there are economists on both sides of 0:20:09.560 --> 0:20:13.240 this issue, and I think we can agree that student 0:20:13.320 --> 0:20:16.040 loans are a major problem for this country, and that 0:20:16.080 --> 0:20:20.040 there's one point seven trillion dollars in student loan debt outstanding, 0:20:20.480 --> 0:20:24.200 and also that this generation is more saddle the student 0:20:24.240 --> 0:20:26.720 loan debt than any of the generations that have come before. 0:20:27.480 --> 0:20:30.520 I think where the conversation gets trickier is what to 0:20:30.640 --> 0:20:33.760 do about it? And so I'm a believer personally that 0:20:34.040 --> 0:20:37.320 what to do about it lies in advice and technology, 0:20:37.400 --> 0:20:40.080 and that the federal government can play a part, but 0:20:40.200 --> 0:20:43.320 the business also needs to play a part. How so, well, 0:20:43.359 --> 0:20:45.440 you know, I think the first the first thing that 0:20:45.640 --> 0:20:48.040 is very true is that, you know, folks are are 0:20:48.040 --> 0:20:50.320 not good at saving and are not necessarily good at 0:20:50.359 --> 0:20:53.040 understanding if I have another disposable dollar, where should I 0:20:53.080 --> 0:20:55.119 put it? Right? And so I think there's sort of 0:20:55.160 --> 0:20:59.720 a regulatory and technology conversion here that's pretty exciting, where 0:20:59.760 --> 0:21:02.080 we now can develop tools, and we had betterment, are 0:21:02.119 --> 0:21:06.639 developing tools to really say to a student loan a 0:21:06.720 --> 0:21:09.800 student loan holder, look, what should you do with your 0:21:09.840 --> 0:21:12.520 next dollar instead of going to Starbucks this week. You know, 0:21:12.600 --> 0:21:15.840 what would five dollars a day do in terms of 0:21:16.080 --> 0:21:18.280 visually we can show you visually what would it do 0:21:18.320 --> 0:21:20.440 in terms of your debt pay down, both your timeline, 0:21:20.640 --> 0:21:22.399 your costs and how can we set you up for 0:21:22.400 --> 0:21:24.600 a better future. And so I think that's one thing 0:21:24.640 --> 0:21:27.840 we can do is offer technological solutions. And the other 0:21:27.880 --> 0:21:30.400 thing we can do is partner with employers, right because 0:21:30.480 --> 0:21:33.520 as with many other great issues of the day, like 0:21:33.720 --> 0:21:38.159 retirement savings, employers have a role to play in supporting 0:21:38.320 --> 0:21:41.760 their employees. How do you see businesses and employers playing 0:21:41.760 --> 0:21:46.560 a bigger role here and how could that also impact 0:21:46.600 --> 0:21:50.760 the choices that students are prospective students make about how 0:21:50.840 --> 0:21:54.760 to access education. Yeah, so I think it's a great question. 0:21:54.800 --> 0:21:56.320 I mean, I think this is you know, for those 0:21:56.359 --> 0:21:59.200 who aren't that excited about the current approach, I think 0:21:59.240 --> 0:22:01.159 the government is take ging. You know, one of the 0:22:01.240 --> 0:22:04.919 concerns is this moral hazard issue of our people going 0:22:04.960 --> 0:22:07.080 to make choices about their education that they're then going 0:22:07.119 --> 0:22:09.479 to expect to be forgiven by the government, and therefore, 0:22:09.520 --> 0:22:11.560 will they make choices that maybe aren't the best choices 0:22:11.600 --> 0:22:14.040 for them? And then similarly, will the costs go up 0:22:14.359 --> 0:22:18.080 because the schools know that they can access this incremental funding. 0:22:18.160 --> 0:22:20.560 So I think this is a real challenge that I 0:22:20.600 --> 0:22:23.600 think we're poised to help with in a couple of ways. 0:22:23.600 --> 0:22:26.719 I mean, number one, there's more legislation if you can 0:22:26.800 --> 0:22:30.120 imagine coming down the pike um in the Secure Act 0:22:30.160 --> 0:22:32.399 two point oh, you know, sort of on the table 0:22:32.480 --> 0:22:35.960 later this year. That's talking about tax incentives for businesses 0:22:36.280 --> 0:22:39.320 to help potentially even with a match where you link 0:22:39.560 --> 0:22:42.560 a four own K and student loan management. So imagine 0:22:42.600 --> 0:22:45.680 if I'm an employee and I can't access my company 0:22:45.720 --> 0:22:48.280 match for retirement because I'm paying down debt from my 0:22:48.359 --> 0:22:50.680 student loan and I just don't have an incremental dollar 0:22:50.800 --> 0:22:53.159 to save, Well, here's an opportunity for the government to 0:22:53.280 --> 0:22:56.040 step in and say, Okay, whether you save by paying 0:22:56.040 --> 0:22:57.600 down your debt or whether you save by putting a 0:22:57.600 --> 0:22:59.960 dollar in your four own k, either way your employer 0:23:00.119 --> 0:23:03.919 can met match that contribution. And that's a really powerful 0:23:03.960 --> 0:23:07.000 way for employers to be able to channel dollars where 0:23:07.000 --> 0:23:10.080