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Speaker 1: Foll Zone Media.

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Speaker 2: Hey everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let

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Speaker 2: you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode

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Speaker 2: of the week that just happened is here in one

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Speaker 2: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to

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Speaker 2: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If

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Speaker 2: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

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Speaker 2: there's got to be nothing new here for you, but

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Speaker 2: you can make your own decisions. Oh man, welcome back

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Speaker 2: to it could happen here a podcast about it meaning

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Speaker 2: bad things happening here, meaning you know here. Obviously, here

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Speaker 2: at cool Zone, we have a little bit of a

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Speaker 2: habit of talking about colts. Some of you who have

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Speaker 2: been listening to Behind the Bastard since the beginning will

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Speaker 2: remember how we kind of started that series with several

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Speaker 2: long episodes about a guy named Keith Ranieri. And today

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Speaker 2: we're here to talk with a wonderful author and journalist,

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Speaker 2: Sarah Berman, who has written both about the next sim

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Speaker 2: cult and about a new cult that some of you

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Speaker 2: are probably familiar with if you if you caught the

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Speaker 2: recent Netflix documentary Prime has a documentary out too on

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Speaker 2: the Twin Flames cult, and so we're going to introduce

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Speaker 2: why this is such an interesting cult, why it's kind

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Speaker 2: of groundbreaking. But first, Sarah, welcome so much to the show. Graham, Hey, hey.

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Speaker 1: So good to be here. Thank you for inviting me.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Sarah, your book is called don't call it a cult,

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Speaker 2: wonderful book about the next sim cult. And yeah, you were.

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Speaker 2: You are kind of the person who first I'm not

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Speaker 2: sure if you're the very first person to ever report

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Speaker 2: on twin Flames, but you're certainly the person who broke

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Speaker 2: the story in a in a meaningful and detailed way.

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Speaker 2: How did you well? First off, we shul probably start

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Speaker 2: with how would you describe twin Flames to people?

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Speaker 1: Right?

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Speaker 3: So, twin Flames Universe began as sort of a YouTube

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Speaker 3: channel and a Facebook group that was all about finding

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Speaker 3: true love. So this group promises not only that you

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Speaker 3: find your true love, but also that you will find

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Speaker 3: career fulfillment and enlightenment and basically everything good will happen

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Speaker 3: to you. Miracles will happen only if you spend thousands

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Speaker 3: of dollars on their coursework and keep up with their

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Speaker 3: sort of spiritual homework, which is a never ending treadmill.

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Speaker 3: And eventually it sort of becomes, you know, an all

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Speaker 3: powerful control over people's lives, where they go, who they

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Speaker 3: interact with, even their life partner, even their gender identity.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, lots of people calling it a matchmaking cult.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a matchmaking I mean. One of the things

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Speaker 2: that I think is interesting to me about the kind

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Speaker 2: of like rhetoric of the cult leaders, and this is

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Speaker 2: one that there do seem to be kind of two

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Speaker 2: people heading it up a couple, is the idea that

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Speaker 2: like they have the ability to see who someone's soulmate is,

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Speaker 2: and like that's a that's kind of a it both

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Speaker 2: sort of. I think the Appeals has speaks to, among

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Speaker 2: other things, kind of the deep loneliness that a lot

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Speaker 2: of younger people feel, you know, as we're dealing with

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Speaker 2: this kind of increasingly closed off, isolated nature of society,

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Speaker 2: especially since COVID, as well as kind of mixing that

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Speaker 2: with some of these you know, much longer standing older

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Speaker 2: cult traditions in a way that felt really really interesting

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Speaker 2: to me and also like something that could only exist now.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, totally, Yeah, there's so much to impact there. So

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Speaker 3: in their early days in twenty fourteen, this couple Jeff

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Speaker 3: and Shelia. I mean Shellly is actually a Megan, but

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Speaker 3: Shellia is the name she arrived at through some conscious journeying. Sure,

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Speaker 3: they have these videos where they just met and they

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Speaker 3: are in love and they are making eyes at each other,

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Speaker 3: and this is something to attain. It was sort of

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Speaker 3: started as this, you know, romantic YouTuber content, and then

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Speaker 3: they start selling Yes, you can have this too. All

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Speaker 3: you have to do is buy our you know, coursework

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Speaker 3: and whatnot. And I think it does speak to, especially

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Speaker 3: during the pandemic, a sort of deep dark loneliness in

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Speaker 3: isolation that's happening where people are enticed by this couple

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Speaker 3: who they're just regular, you know, Michigan white people.

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Speaker 1: They're making eyes at each other.

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Speaker 3: Doesn't look like anything special to an outsider, but clearly,

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Speaker 3: you know, thousands of people have sort of.

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Speaker 1: Lashed on to it.

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Speaker 3: Have have, you know, hoped that this secret knowledge that

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Speaker 3: this group is giving them, you know, will bring them happiness.

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Speaker 3: And because it's sort of an all encompassing ideology where

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Speaker 3: if you even question the group, well then you are

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Speaker 3: definitely never going to see your life partner and we'll

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Speaker 3: probably see hell at some point.

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Speaker 1: In your life.

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Speaker 4: You know.

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Speaker 3: It just creates this perverse incentive to just keep pouring

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Speaker 3: time and effort into this group in a way that yeah,

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Speaker 3: I don't think could exist in any other timeframe, especially

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Speaker 3: not through Zoom.

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Speaker 1: Right, So most of these.

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Speaker 3: Classes that they sell are happening on Zoom, just like

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Speaker 3: you and I are on today, So that you know,

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Speaker 3: Naxium could never achieve, right, this group has achieved a

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Speaker 3: level of you know, connection and I don't know, just

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Speaker 3: getting into people's brain stems through a laptop screen, which

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Speaker 3: is incredible for our time.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's very I mean again, this is part of

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Speaker 2: what's so modern about it is that it appears to work

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Speaker 2: entirely like cults, and particularly cult leaders tend to be

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Speaker 2: such social phenomena. This is nearly always a thing that

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Speaker 2: involves person to person contact, and in fact, one of

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Speaker 2: the things any cult expert will tell you is a

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Speaker 2: hallmark of a cult is it's the focus it puts

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Speaker 2: on isolating members and perspective, members away from their friends

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Speaker 2: and their family and keeping them under the power of

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Speaker 2: the cult leader at all times. And this is very

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Speaker 2: People are not all together, they're not all living in

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Speaker 2: one area, They're geographically isolated. The dynamics that this reproduces

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Speaker 2: itself with our parasocial dynamics, the same dynamics podcast listeners

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Speaker 2: have with like like like you know, it's a more

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Speaker 2: extreme version of that, but it's part of this thing

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Speaker 2: we see with twitch streamers, we see it with like YouTubers,

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Speaker 2: this kind of And it solves one of the mysteries

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Speaker 2: because I've watched this stop with a couple of friends

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Speaker 2: who kept being like, well, these people don't seem charismatic,

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Speaker 2: they don't seem this doesn't seem like, it doesn't seem

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Speaker 2: like they could be attaining this.

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Speaker 4: Degree of control over people.

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Speaker 2: And I think part of what explains that is just like, well,

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Speaker 2: someone may not seem charismatic when you're watching little clips

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Speaker 2: of them in a documentary, but when they're in your

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Speaker 2: ears and you know, on calls with you and stuff

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Speaker 2: all day every day, your body builds up like they

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Speaker 2: get through your defenses that way. Like that's how parasocial

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Speaker 2: relationships kind of work.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, Yeah, you just have the binging quality of how

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Speaker 3: people consume media these days. And it's the same for

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Speaker 3: you know, YouTube rabbit holes that radicalize sort of right

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Speaker 3: wing white men. So it's the same process these folks

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Speaker 3: who I was speaking to, they were consuming up to

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Speaker 3: ten even fifteen hours of this content per day, and

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Speaker 3: they were feeling like they had to keep up with

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Speaker 3: that just to maintain their coaching title or what have you. So, yes,

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Speaker 3: they have Jeff inside their head at all times.

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Speaker 1: They start speaking like him.

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Speaker 3: You know, you can kind of tell when an still

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Speaker 3: involved member emails you that it sounds just like the leaders.

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Speaker 3: It is a yeah, fully saturating, indoctrinating process, and I guess, yeah,

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Speaker 3: you don't have to be particularly charismatic in person to

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Speaker 3: achieve that kind of saturation when you have the YouTube algorithm.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 3: Unfortunately, my YouTube algorithm is also ruined, so up on

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Speaker 3: YouTube is looking pretty.

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Speaker 1: It's yikes these days.

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Speaker 2: No, I actually discovered a really effective method of for

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Speaker 2: my own research in various cults, which is I just

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Speaker 2: used my roommate's YouTube premium account, So I have ruined

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Speaker 2: his life. But it's not a problem for me. So

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Speaker 2: it's it's worked out really well, is what I'm saying.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I might try that solution, but I live

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Speaker 3: with my you know, partners, so.

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Speaker 1: You might not appreciate that. We'll see how it goes, though.

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Speaker 2: I'm kind of curious, how did you get on this story,

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Speaker 2: Like what was what was your backstory there?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so I was in the depths still of reporting

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Speaker 3: on Nexium. I don't believe the sentencing for Keith Ranieri

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Speaker 3: had happened yet at that point. So this was late

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Speaker 3: twenty nineteen early twenty twenty. One of the mothers was

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Speaker 3: the first to reach out to me, and she had

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Speaker 3: two daughters who are featured in the Netflix series in

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Speaker 3: the group, and she had told me that she was

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Speaker 3: cut off from all contact, that the only contact she

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Speaker 3: did have with one of her daughters was when she

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Speaker 3: sent thousands of dollars. And so that to me right away,

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Speaker 3: like you said, you know, isolating people from their family

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Speaker 3: members who might you know, raise questions or you know,

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Speaker 3: want to know more about what's happening, asking for money

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Speaker 3: so blatantly, you know, in denying contact based on an

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Speaker 3: amount of money sent, that all sounded pretty bad to me,

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Speaker 3: and so I started looking into it. That mom pointed

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Speaker 3: me towards Elle, who is also featured in the Netflix series.

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Speaker 3: She's also Katie in the A Vanity Fair piece that

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Speaker 3: later came out after our reporting, and it just sort

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Speaker 3: of snowballed from there. I'll put me in touch with

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Speaker 3: I would say half a dozen ex members. At that point,

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Speaker 3: some different mothers started contacting me because they all were

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Speaker 3: sort of in a group chat trying to figure out

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Speaker 3: how they could re establish content contact with their mostly daughters.

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Speaker 3: That was my origin story. We put out a piece

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Speaker 3: fairly quickly. I tried to get it out within a

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Speaker 3: month or two of that first contact.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well that makes a lot of sense, and I

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Speaker 2: want to continue talking about this. We'll get into a

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Speaker 2: lot more, but first it's time for an ad break.

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Speaker 2: So here we go, ah, and we're back Mia. Did

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Speaker 2: you have anything you wanted to move into next?

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: So there are some parts of this that are very

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Speaker 5: familiar in the sense of the combination of Christianity and

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Speaker 5: weird New Age spiritualism stuff I think is a pretty

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Speaker 5: old combination. I mean, the mood is very famously sort

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Speaker 5: of pioneered this thing, and you know, you can go

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Speaker 5: back to eight hundreds and find versions of it. The

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Speaker 5: thing that I think is interesting about it is the

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Speaker 5: way that they've effectively been doing conversion therapy on people,

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Speaker 5: and I don't know, this is something I haven't really

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Speaker 5: seen before. From a cult, and I guess, I guess

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Speaker 5: I think the way into this is talking about the

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Speaker 5: sort of divine masculine, divine feminine stuff.

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Speaker 4: For sure.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I agree that this seemed new and you know,

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Speaker 3: sort of bizarre to me. And certainly I've already seen

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Speaker 3: on Twitter some right wing takes on it that give

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Speaker 3: me a lot of uncomfortable feelings because they're obviously taking

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Speaker 3: the wrong opposite lesson. You know, when I guess, when

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Speaker 3: I watched this, I see, see you can't tell someone

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Speaker 3: what their gender is. You know, it doesn't work, It

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Speaker 3: falls apart, it doesn't make sense. But I think, yeah,

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Speaker 3: something that's been taken away in some smaller circles is that,

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Speaker 3: oh see, you can coach someone to change their gender,

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Speaker 3: and that's you know, blame teachers, blame whoever for doing that.

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Speaker 1: So this particular group does have.

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Speaker 3: A divine masculine and divine feminine teaching that used to.

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Speaker 1: Be a little more flimsy.

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Speaker 3: So in the early days, they just said, if you're

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Speaker 3: in a queer couple, it just means one of you

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Speaker 3: has the more wearing pants vibe. You know, it wasn't

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Speaker 3: supposed to literally translate to a gender expression.

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Speaker 1: Or gender identity.

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Speaker 3: But later on, when you know, you had this growing

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Speaker 3: amount of you know, sis women who are.

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Speaker 1: I mean, they're interested in finding.

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Speaker 3: Their man, and that's not happening because, you know, the

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Speaker 3: group makes it very hard to actually meet outside people.

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Speaker 3: If you're on this constant treadmill of doing spiritual homework,

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Speaker 3: you don't have time to meet you.

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Speaker 1: People, and maybe when you talk about it, it's pushing

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Speaker 1: people away.

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Speaker 3: So eventually, in late twenty nineteen they started actually making

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Speaker 3: pairings and to get around the fact that you know,

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Speaker 3: folks said, well, that's not my you know, orientation, I'm

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Speaker 3: not attracted to women, they started actually telling people, well

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Speaker 3: that you're the divine masculine and actually, you know, you,

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Speaker 3: going back your whole life, probably knew this all along,

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Speaker 3: and we're just revealing something to you.

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Speaker 1: And that sat the wrong way in.

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Speaker 3: A lot of cases, and a lot of people left

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Speaker 3: around that time, but they successfully paired up I think

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Speaker 3: more than a dozen people around that time, and they

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Speaker 3: continued to do pairings into twenty twenty, and some folks

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Speaker 3: did come along on the journey.

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Speaker 1: They did in.

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Speaker 3: Some cases pursue top surgery and hormones and have changed

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Speaker 3: their names changed their pronouns.

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Speaker 1: It's yeah, it's not.

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Speaker 3: Obviously, there are moms who are just barely coming to

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Speaker 3: terms with this, and you know, they're not always using

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Speaker 3: the right language, and they're a little confused, you know,

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Speaker 3: and that confusion was often used as a reason to

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Speaker 3: cut off all contact, you know, say hey, mom, you're transphobic,

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Speaker 3: you know, and push them aside. And so I think

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Speaker 3: it is new in some sense, but it's also very

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Speaker 3: old in the sense that cults often create a brand

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Speaker 3: new identity for people, right, Like new names when you

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Speaker 3: join a cult is not a new thing. That that's

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Speaker 3: something that a lot of you know, and changing hair, right.

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Speaker 4: Shaving your heads, that's like one of the things exactly.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So I mean this is I guess an updated

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Speaker 3: version where I mean it's kind of smart in a

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Speaker 3: way that like people might be afraid to question it, right,

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Speaker 3: Like you're hiding behind something that sounds very progressive and

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Speaker 3: very inclusive, and that's what a lot of cults do,

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Speaker 3: is they hide in very progressive spaces. But yeah, it's

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Speaker 3: a lot. It's a lot to take in, and I

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Speaker 3: definitely like to bring experts up to speed on this

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Speaker 3: and get their perspectives because I don't know everything, you know,

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Speaker 3: I can't possibly pretend to know what's in someone someone's

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Speaker 3: heart and mind and body, you know, at any time.

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Speaker 3: So everyone is just working through it. Like one of

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Speaker 3: the experts in the documentary says, you know, some of

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Speaker 3: these folks could have been transmit all along, but the

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Speaker 3: way that they're being told to do it is concerning

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Speaker 3: to say the least.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, And I mean, I think there's some interesting stuff

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Speaker 5: with how they were able to do this, which is

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Speaker 5: even before they started force to be transitioning people, there

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Speaker 5: was this is I think the most trans people I've

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Speaker 5: ever seen in a cult like this, Like the number

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Speaker 5: of people who were trans going in was really high,

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Speaker 5: and I suspect that was how they were able to

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Speaker 5: sort of like like, you know, like one of the

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Speaker 5: people in the documentary was talking about how she was

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Speaker 5: like a transphoman. She was being basically like tokenized by

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Speaker 5: the group as this like hey, we're like trans inclusive thing.

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Speaker 5: And I wonder how much of the way they were

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Speaker 5: able to do this is from basically taking the firsthand

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Speaker 5: experience of like actual trans people and then like using

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Speaker 5: that to try to convince people of this really weird

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Speaker 5: sort of essentialist, like we've decided that you're the divide

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Speaker 5: and masculine, so you have to transition to be a

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Speaker 5: man now.

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Speaker 4: Stuff.

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Speaker 3: The origin story of it is you're right in reaching

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Speaker 3: out to LGBTQ type communities. So folks like our Celia

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Speaker 3: who you see in the documentary, and also Jesse who

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Speaker 3: you see in the Netflix documentary, they were sent out

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Speaker 3: recruiting in queer spaces, so any type of queer Facebook group, Twitter.

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Speaker 1: User, you know, YouTuber.

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Speaker 3: They were in the comments there talking about their twin

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Speaker 3: Flame journey and talking about how queer.

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Speaker 1: Inclusive it was.

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Speaker 3: So they were actively doing that and it's fascinating to see.

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Speaker 3: You know, you can go back through Twitter history and find,

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Speaker 3: you know, how they were phrasing these things. You know,

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Speaker 3: like that was their job basically to do outreach for

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Speaker 3: the group in queer space is they also did lots

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Speaker 3: of PTSD spaces, former military spaces. You know, they really

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Speaker 3: like tried to find any slice of a person who

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Speaker 3: might need a community, who might be lonely and sort

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Speaker 3: of feed them into the group. And you're right, I

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Speaker 3: think if you have a bunch of queer, open minded

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Speaker 3: people in a space, there's a lot you can do

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Speaker 3: with you know, suggestion, There's a lot you can do

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Speaker 3: with a deck of tarot cards. It seems a lot

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Speaker 3: of these, you know, gender conversions started with a tarot

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Speaker 3: reading where they would just hold up a card that

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Speaker 3: represented them or their supposed partner and you know, sort

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Speaker 3: of building off of that. So it is it's new

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Speaker 3: and old in so many ways because yeah, you're just

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Speaker 3: using the divine to basically just dictate any aspect of

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Speaker 3: someone's life. You know, what they eat, what they wear,

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Speaker 3: they go everything.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I mean it's also we're talking about like

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Speaker 2: how how much of this kind of plays on loneliness,

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Speaker 2: the fact that people are desperate for companionship, that particularly

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Speaker 2: younger people are like dating less or more socially isolated,

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Speaker 2: and like, if you want to push that up to

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Speaker 2: the nth degree, you take a group of people who

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Speaker 2: is under siege right now and so particularly having trouble

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Speaker 2: like being safely out and around people right like, you

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Speaker 2: give them what looks like it's a safe, welcoming community

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Speaker 2: that's supportive of them, and if especially they have not

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Speaker 2: had that, Yeah, it's it's I mean, it's deeply insidious

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Speaker 2: and evil.

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Speaker 3: I would say it's powerful stuff. I would say when

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Speaker 3: I go on the Facebook group. You know, I'm block now,

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Speaker 3: but when I could, it would you know, show folks

340
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Speaker 3: really deep into a fantasy, you know, like they want

341
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Speaker 3: a perfect life for themselves where they are openly welcomed

342
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Speaker 3: with open arms, where the people that they care about

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00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:11,800
Speaker 3: care about them back, you know, and that's often not

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Speaker 3: actually the case in their home life, but it seems

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Speaker 3: to be real on this Facebook page, and they think,

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Speaker 3: you know, if I just put in the work, this

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Speaker 3: will happen for me. That straight guy who I'm into

348
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Speaker 3: is going to come around and see that we're twin flames.

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Speaker 3: And so yeah, it definitely also feeds into a bit

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Speaker 3: of fantasy and delusion. That's you know, I think maybe

351
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Speaker 3: a symptom of us being so isolated in our you know,

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Speaker 3: pandemic brain spaces.

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Speaker 2: Speaking of isolated shit, well, it's an AD, it's an

354
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Speaker 2: AD break. I don't I don't know how anything it

355
00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:55,639
Speaker 2: goes with that, But here's some ads. Ah, and we're back. Sorry,

356
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Speaker 2: you've you've just encountered some of our classic incombatant AD transitions.

357
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Speaker 2: But what's not incompetent is your reporting on this subject

358
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Speaker 2: and I'm I'm curious as you realize how potentially a

359
00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:14,439
Speaker 2: lot of what's going on in this cult, with this

360
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Speaker 2: divine masculine divide feminine stuff, could, if not handled carefully,

361
00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:23,000
Speaker 2: play into some really pernicious culture war stuff that's going

362
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Speaker 2: on in the country right now. How do you kind of, like,

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Speaker 2: how consciously did you sort of work to avoid that?

364
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Speaker 3: Yeah, that is definitely something I'm worried about, is that

365
00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:40,360
Speaker 3: this could feed into some sort of culture war talking point.

366
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Speaker 3: And you know, you're seeing the seeds of that. If

367
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Speaker 3: you search Twitter very deeply, you can find it. I

368
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Speaker 3: guess X, I'm calling it Twitter. It's still Twitter to me.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's still Twitter.

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Speaker 4: It's only acceptable dead naming.

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Speaker 1: Speaking of dead naming.

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Speaker 4: Yes, So.

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Speaker 3: I definitely wanted to be as careful as possible, listen

374
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Speaker 3: to trans people as much as possible, you know.

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Speaker 1: So that's why our Celia was one of.

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Speaker 3: The first folks that I talked to, And you know,

377
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Speaker 3: she had just such an interesting understanding of this because she,

378
00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:18,240
Speaker 3: you know, had transitioned before she came into this group,

379
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Speaker 3: and she was able to witness so much of the

380
00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:24,879
Speaker 3: coaching that was happening. And I'm just so grateful for

381
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Speaker 3: someone who goes through that ringer and still is able

382
00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:32,880
Speaker 3: to articulate what happened afterwards, because you know, not everybody

383
00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:36,800
Speaker 3: comes around to understanding it as deeply as she did.

384
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Speaker 3: So that was my main, you know thing, was I

385
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Speaker 3: was going to listen to trans people and then yeah,

386
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Speaker 3: I guess just trying to sort out what was the

387
00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:51,840
Speaker 3: ideology of the group, how that was being you know,

388
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Speaker 3: I guess executed, and yeah, just trying to come from

389
00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:04,199
Speaker 3: this perspective that, yeah, nobody can tell you what your

390
00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:06,800
Speaker 3: gender is and this is actually an example of that.

391
00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:09,320
Speaker 3: It was hard to wrap my head around, and I

392
00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:11,879
Speaker 3: still worry about it. I'm still worrying about my words

393
00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:12,720
Speaker 3: kind of right now.

394
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Speaker 5: Yeah, that was something in the documentary that like you

395
00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:21,600
Speaker 5: could see the filmmakers kind of like you can you

396
00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:26,080
Speaker 5: can see them kind of going back and forth between

397
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Speaker 5: wanting to use people getting top surgery as this kind

398
00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:35,320
Speaker 5: of like shock factor thing, but then also like at

399
00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:39,520
Speaker 5: the same time being like wait, hold on, like this

400
00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:41,080
Speaker 5: is you know, this is something that you can very

401
00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:45,080
Speaker 5: very easily like be a right wing transphobe and just

402
00:23:45,119 --> 00:23:47,639
Speaker 5: like take a clip of and put on the internet

403
00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:49,480
Speaker 5: and be like hey, like we need to stop gender

404
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Speaker 5: clinics from being able to do this.

405
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Speaker 4: And I don't know. I think I.

406
00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:58,560
Speaker 5: Think you've handled it pretty well, but I don't know,

407
00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:04,520
Speaker 5: like this is this is something that is like I

408
00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:06,639
Speaker 5: think like one of the important things is like this

409
00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:10,879
Speaker 5: cult is ran by SIS people and this is you

410
00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:13,760
Speaker 5: know what. I think it was a good decision for

411
00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:16,560
Speaker 5: you to talk about it in terms of conversion therapy,

412
00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:22,240
Speaker 5: because that's a lot closer to what's happening than people transitioning.

413
00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:25,320
Speaker 5: And you know, I mean like it's I don't know,

414
00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:28,760
Speaker 5: like I would say. The thing that's complicated about it,

415
00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:32,120
Speaker 5: right is you know you it's you can't talk. It's

416
00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:34,919
Speaker 5: really really it's almost impossible to like talk to the

417
00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:38,600
Speaker 5: people who are going through this and get an understanding

418
00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:40,920
Speaker 5: of what their sense of their gender is. I mean,

419
00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:43,040
Speaker 5: like I've I watched a couple of the videos that

420
00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:49,080
Speaker 5: they made and like, I don't know, it's it's it's

421
00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:54,760
Speaker 5: really difficult to like it's it's it's easy to play

422
00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:56,800
Speaker 5: arm tre psychologist with it, and I don't want to

423
00:24:56,800 --> 00:24:59,600
Speaker 5: do that. And so yeah, I think I think you've

424
00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:02,560
Speaker 5: been watch a difficult line, and yeah, I keep.

425
00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:03,600
Speaker 1: My hands off that too.

426
00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:06,520
Speaker 3: You know, like, I am not going to tell any

427
00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:10,520
Speaker 3: one of those folks, you know, Gabe Ray, what's going

428
00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:13,399
Speaker 3: on in their brains and bodies. I just do happen

429
00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:18,520
Speaker 3: to know about the systematic sort of coaching that they.

430
00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:20,119
Speaker 1: Were, you know, exposed to.

431
00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:23,360
Speaker 3: So you know, for in the case of Jesse Hersey,

432
00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:27,600
Speaker 3: she had months and months of coaching around letting go

433
00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:32,199
Speaker 3: of her entire life, her entire identity starting over, let

434
00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:34,440
Speaker 3: go of any image of what you think your twin

435
00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:38,040
Speaker 3: flame could be, right, and so if you're doing that,

436
00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:42,600
Speaker 3: you know, and eventually folks do sort of acquiesque. I

437
00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:46,480
Speaker 3: think it's similar in a gender conversion coaching situation. Some

438
00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:49,840
Speaker 3: people acquiesque, you know, they they get into a high

439
00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:53,399
Speaker 3: pressure situation, they're being told who they are, They're being

440
00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:56,840
Speaker 3: told there will be consequences if they.

441
00:25:56,800 --> 00:26:00,640
Speaker 1: You know, go back to their normal queer selves.

442
00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:04,439
Speaker 3: So that actually does get somebody to change, but in

443
00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:07,040
Speaker 3: a beer based situation, so.

444
00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:08,840
Speaker 1: I can speak to the coaching.

445
00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:12,000
Speaker 3: But yes, I'm never going to be a person telling

446
00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:14,120
Speaker 3: anyone what their gender.

447
00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:15,600
Speaker 1: Is because we don't know.

448
00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:20,679
Speaker 3: Hopefully, you know, they can break free of what I

449
00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:24,600
Speaker 3: think is you know, pretty manipulative coercive practices and then

450
00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:26,720
Speaker 3: they can tell us more about who they are.

451
00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:29,720
Speaker 5: Yeah, And I mean I think the other thing I'll

452
00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:32,320
Speaker 5: say about that is like, well, I mean we know

453
00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:34,760
Speaker 5: just on a societal level, that it's possible to force

454
00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:37,480
Speaker 5: people to live as a gender that they're not and

455
00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:41,679
Speaker 5: to identify themselves as that gender by systematic social pressure.

456
00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:43,280
Speaker 5: And we know this because this is the story of

457
00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:47,320
Speaker 5: like every transperson who's ever lived, right and totally you know,

458
00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:52,399
Speaker 5: and like it sucks, like it really fucking sucks, like

459
00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:55,720
Speaker 5: having someone force a gender on you. And I really

460
00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:59,760
Speaker 5: hope that these people, like I hope these people.

461
00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:00,240
Speaker 4: Find and.

462
00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:06,280
Speaker 5: Find who they are and you know, whatever form that takes,

463
00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:10,520
Speaker 5: that they're not being coerced into it, because like, yeah,

464
00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:13,040
Speaker 5: and this is something I think that was in I

465
00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:15,520
Speaker 5: think it was in the Netflix documentary that people were

466
00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:18,600
Speaker 5: talking about. This is like, you know, in terms of

467
00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:20,480
Speaker 5: people who could understand what this is like, like I

468
00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:25,280
Speaker 5: think other trans people are probably some of the only

469
00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:28,960
Speaker 5: people in the world who actually do, like even sort

470
00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:30,679
Speaker 5: of understand what it's like to be forced to be

471
00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:34,200
Speaker 5: a gender if that you're not. And so yeah, I'm

472
00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:38,159
Speaker 5: hoping that this develops in a way like of solidarity

473
00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:41,440
Speaker 5: and not of weaponization by right wingers.

474
00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:44,240
Speaker 2: But I mean, I think you guys have done all

475
00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:48,000
Speaker 2: you could reasonably do to avoid that, like the culture

476
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:49,879
Speaker 2: war is going to do with the culture war does.

477
00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:55,320
Speaker 2: I wanted to get into Keith Ranieri a little bit

478
00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:59,400
Speaker 2: and kind of how what went on with the Nexium cult,

479
00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:01,800
Speaker 2: because he's a friend of the pod over here. We've

480
00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:04,600
Speaker 2: talked a lot about the details of what he got

481
00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:11,000
Speaker 2: up to. He's obviously probably the biggest recent cult in

482
00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:14,600
Speaker 2: the US, and like US popular culture at least, you know,

483
00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:16,960
Speaker 2: there's a couple other a little bit of other competition

484
00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:20,240
Speaker 2: for that title, but not a ton And yeah, I

485
00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:21,639
Speaker 2: wanted to talk to you a little bit about how

486
00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:25,320
Speaker 2: some of how people's awareness of that because like, obviously,

487
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:27,959
Speaker 2: given the media environment, all the people getting pulled in

488
00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:33,080
Speaker 2: by the Twin Flames cult were aware to some extent

489
00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:35,679
Speaker 2: of cult dynamics and probably of this story of this

490
00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:38,040
Speaker 2: cult that is not unrelated.

491
00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:39,800
Speaker 1: Definitely.

492
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:43,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, So there is a bit of stories colliding. When

493
00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:45,600
Speaker 3: you write about cults, there's only so many of them.

494
00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:51,800
Speaker 3: Inevitably stories start to cross over. So I was still, yeah,

495
00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:56,600
Speaker 3: covering Vnexium trial, and you know, folloout sentencings when this

496
00:28:56,720 --> 00:29:00,120
Speaker 3: story came across my desk, you know, and even the

497
00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:02,360
Speaker 3: first person who talked to me about it was like,

498
00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:05,520
Speaker 3: I think it's similar, you know, I think their practices

499
00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:08,280
Speaker 3: are similar. And sure enough, I go and look at

500
00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:12,320
Speaker 3: this mind alignment process and you're right, it's it's kind

501
00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:15,400
Speaker 3: of similar to auditing, and scientology is kind of similar

502
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:17,040
Speaker 3: to you know, what Nexium was doing.

503
00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:18,760
Speaker 1: So it's.

504
00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:24,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, the tools of manipulation are common across many of

505
00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:28,720
Speaker 3: these groups. And I would say, you know, not just

506
00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:32,840
Speaker 3: ex members of Twin Flames, but even potentially the leaders

507
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:37,160
Speaker 3: of Twin Flames have studied other groups, including Nexium. There

508
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:42,280
Speaker 3: is the detail in the documentary that Jeff actually made folks.

509
00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:45,160
Speaker 1: In the group write an essay about why Keith R.

510
00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:47,560
Speaker 3: Nieri was a cult leader but why he was not one,

511
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:51,720
Speaker 3: based on watching the vow inseduced. So that's just, yeah,

512
00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:56,640
Speaker 3: a world's colliding for me. But yeah, I think Nexium

513
00:29:56,760 --> 00:30:00,840
Speaker 3: has in some ways brought a certain underst standing. So

514
00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:05,000
Speaker 3: some of the sources I was talking to, yeah, had

515
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:08,640
Speaker 3: an understanding of how that worked. And you know what

516
00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:13,640
Speaker 3: made that wrong, what made that coercion? Twin Flames doesn't

517
00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:17,560
Speaker 3: have as many of the aspects as nexiums, so they

518
00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:21,880
Speaker 3: don't have a blackmail program, right, there's no branding in

519
00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:26,280
Speaker 3: twin Flames Universe. And you know their diet plan was actually,

520
00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:29,560
Speaker 3: you know, load up on calories, right, So there's some.

521
00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:33,520
Speaker 1: Various differences that.

522
00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:37,760
Speaker 3: You know, maybe Jeff studied and thought he could fly

523
00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:39,280
Speaker 3: under the radar with that.

524
00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:40,160
Speaker 1: I don't know.

525
00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:43,320
Speaker 3: I don't know Jeff's motivations. He has only sent me long,

526
00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:44,440
Speaker 3: rambling emails.

527
00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:46,240
Speaker 1: He has never agreed to an interview.

528
00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:54,200
Speaker 3: But yes, there's so much commonality, including the lawsuits that

529
00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:56,479
Speaker 3: came out of this. So when I reported on this

530
00:30:56,560 --> 00:31:03,120
Speaker 3: in twenty twenty, immediately after our first story, twin Flames

531
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:06,600
Speaker 3: Universe sent a bunch of threatening letters to all of

532
00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:11,680
Speaker 3: who they suspected was cooperating with my reporting.

533
00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:14,200
Speaker 1: So this was a group of some thirty five people.

534
00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:18,360
Speaker 3: I definitely didn't interview all of them, but they were

535
00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:22,360
Speaker 3: suspected collaborators. And it basically said, if you do not

536
00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:26,760
Speaker 3: retract your story within twenty four hours and write a

537
00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:31,560
Speaker 3: public apology, we are going to publish very damning information

538
00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:36,720
Speaker 3: about you, and we might pursue a lawsuit. And this

539
00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:43,680
Speaker 3: letter was not signed by a lawyer, you know, sign legit. Yeah,

540
00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:47,920
Speaker 3: in reporting on it, which we did, and of course

541
00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:52,120
Speaker 3: nobody retracted. But sure enough, a couple months after that,

542
00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:57,000
Speaker 3: they did file a defamation suit against I want to say,

543
00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:02,200
Speaker 3: seven or eight members and one mom, and of course

544
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:04,840
Speaker 3: that got thrown out. But that's the next you and

545
00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:08,360
Speaker 3: playbook is sue, sue folks until they don't speak to

546
00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:14,240
Speaker 3: anyone anymore. Right, So it's a silencing tactic and it worked.

547
00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:17,760
Speaker 3: It really shook people up. I definitely wanted to give

548
00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:22,400
Speaker 3: people space after that. Yeah, it was definitely deja vus.

549
00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:26,320
Speaker 3: I guess to see that many lawsuits because there were

550
00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:28,440
Speaker 3: two separate ones booth thrown out.

551
00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:33,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, and that's like something I've had to

552
00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:36,120
Speaker 2: like coach some some younger journalists and stuff through too,

553
00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:39,240
Speaker 2: because it's a favorite tactic of a lot of terrible people,

554
00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:42,360
Speaker 2: like send out legal threats and like, this is not

555
00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:45,040
Speaker 2: legal advice. You should always consult a lawyer. But the

556
00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:47,680
Speaker 2: vast majority of threats like that that are sent out

557
00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:51,720
Speaker 2: cannot be backed up to any realistic extent. Again, don't

558
00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:54,520
Speaker 2: ever assume that always consult a lawyer about this sort

559
00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:57,120
Speaker 2: of thing. But like the fact that somebody sends you

560
00:32:57,200 --> 00:33:00,200
Speaker 2: a we're going to sue you or like a ease

561
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:03,360
Speaker 2: and desist. Does not mean they can actually hurt you, right,

562
00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:05,760
Speaker 2: It just means like for a lot of people, that's

563
00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:07,560
Speaker 2: like a go to sort of thing.

564
00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:13,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, but it does evoke emotions in the.

565
00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:15,000
Speaker 2: Netflix stuff, and it does mean you've got to reach

566
00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:16,760
Speaker 2: out to a lawyer, which is scary, you know.

567
00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:22,200
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, thankfully we had vice lawyers that on that one.

568
00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:24,360
Speaker 1: But I don't know.

569
00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:29,000
Speaker 3: In the Netflix documentary, Jeff actually names me, you know,

570
00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:32,680
Speaker 3: and tries to intimidate me by name. And that was

571
00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:36,480
Speaker 3: actually cut from a much longer video, And I have

572
00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:39,240
Speaker 3: to say, when it first came out, it did make

573
00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:39,960
Speaker 3: me want a cuke.

574
00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:42,880
Speaker 1: Now when I see it in the series, it makes

575
00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:43,320
Speaker 1: me laugh.

576
00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:47,280
Speaker 3: But it Yeah, you can really intimidate someone with that stuff.

577
00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:50,360
Speaker 2: Sure, I think we should probably end on kind of

578
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:53,360
Speaker 2: talking about where things are now, because again, if you've

579
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:56,400
Speaker 2: watched the documentary, I think the thing that was brought

580
00:33:56,440 --> 00:33:57,920
Speaker 2: up to me by a couple of people I know

581
00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:00,200
Speaker 2: who watched it was like, so, wait, there's so just

582
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:02,600
Speaker 2: out there doing it. You know, we're used to when

583
00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:05,360
Speaker 2: stuff like this gets covered, they're being some sort of

584
00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:08,960
Speaker 2: satisfying narrative arc. They've been charged, they're in you know, prison,

585
00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:12,960
Speaker 2: they're on the run, but this like they're just continuing

586
00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:15,399
Speaker 2: to do cult stuff. And I think part of like

587
00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:18,319
Speaker 2: one of the things that is unfortunate. It's just I'm

588
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:20,839
Speaker 2: not a law expert, again, but just from what I'm

589
00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:23,600
Speaker 2: looked at, it's not clear to me that they've broken

590
00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:25,160
Speaker 2: a law in a way that's going to be easy

591
00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:26,000
Speaker 2: to come after them for.

592
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:28,280
Speaker 4: Yeah.

593
00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:31,880
Speaker 3: So this is the interesting thing about Twin Flames Universe

594
00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:35,160
Speaker 3: is it does sort of straddle this line between you know,

595
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:36,640
Speaker 3: it's not nexium.

596
00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:39,200
Speaker 1: They weren't clear up, they.

597
00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:42,840
Speaker 4: Haven't abducted people, Yes, exactly.

598
00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:47,760
Speaker 3: They haven't risen to that level. Although there are folks

599
00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:50,799
Speaker 3: who are in this group who believe they were trafficked,

600
00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:54,279
Speaker 3: which is an interesting perspective because they weren't able to

601
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:58,200
Speaker 3: choose the person that they were having sexual contact.

602
00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:00,040
Speaker 1: With, that they didn't even get.

603
00:34:59,840 --> 00:35:04,600
Speaker 3: To control when or how that sexual contact happened. It

604
00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:08,439
Speaker 3: would take I think, you know, a very ambitious prosecutor

605
00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:12,200
Speaker 3: to take on that kind of case. But back in

606
00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:16,160
Speaker 3: twenty twenty, some of these moms were already calling you know,

607
00:35:16,239 --> 00:35:20,080
Speaker 3: the FBI and the local Farmington Hills Police Farmington Hills

608
00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:23,759
Speaker 3: has been like, this is not our jurisdiction. If anything, like,

609
00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:28,440
Speaker 3: go to the FBI. We haven't heard any particular updates

610
00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:33,160
Speaker 3: from that, you know case. Certainly folks have said things

611
00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:35,600
Speaker 3: to me that sound a bit like fraud. You know,

612
00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:38,840
Speaker 3: wire fraud is a very broad concept. I don't know

613
00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:41,200
Speaker 3: if that's actually the case. I am not a lawyer,

614
00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:46,000
Speaker 3: I'm not a prosecutor, but definitely I think the filmmakers

615
00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:51,360
Speaker 3: behind the Netflix documentary in particular, think that this is

616
00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:54,759
Speaker 3: up to the FBI. They should be taking action, and

617
00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:57,160
Speaker 3: they want their documentary to spur that action.

618
00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:01,880
Speaker 1: So yeah, we'll see what happens.

619
00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:06,240
Speaker 3: I you know, am as I said, not an expert,

620
00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:09,359
Speaker 3: not a lawyer, but certainly a lot of the things

621
00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:12,440
Speaker 3: that I've heard about sound very concerning and very similar.

622
00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:16,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean and I yeah, it's tough because like

623
00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:20,360
Speaker 2: I mean, I do I will say I would be

624
00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:24,160
Speaker 2: shocked if there's not an active FBI investigation, purely based

625
00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:28,239
Speaker 2: on how how popular the documentaries have been. Right like,

626
00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:31,719
Speaker 2: that doesn't mean anything will actually happen, but at this

627
00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:34,839
Speaker 2: point I would be shocked if they were not seriously

628
00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:38,560
Speaker 2: looking into it. Just because it's like they're probably getting

629
00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:39,800
Speaker 2: hassled by a bunch of people.

630
00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:45,640
Speaker 3: Yes, and I mean it is a very culty thing

631
00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:49,320
Speaker 3: that they also collect everything, you know, video of everything

632
00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:49,839
Speaker 3: they've done.

633
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:52,840
Speaker 4: There's a lot to look into. Yeah.

634
00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:57,120
Speaker 3: The Yes, the hard drive that one of the folks

635
00:36:57,120 --> 00:37:00,680
Speaker 3: in the documentary named Keeley collected was really called the

636
00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:02,520
Speaker 3: Holy Grail, right.

637
00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:05,120
Speaker 1: Rynexium.

638
00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:09,719
Speaker 3: For Keith Ranieri, his you know, damning evidence was called Studies.

639
00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:12,719
Speaker 1: So I feel like this is the Studies hard drive.

640
00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:19,040
Speaker 2: Yeah. In that case, Well, we'll continue to all look

641
00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:23,560
Speaker 2: into this and excited to kind of see hopefully eventually

642
00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:27,200
Speaker 2: some sort of justice being done, although that's always a

643
00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:32,680
Speaker 2: lot to ask for out of the world. Yeah. Well, Mia,

644
00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:34,520
Speaker 2: did you have anything else you wanted to get into.

645
00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:37,320
Speaker 4: I think that's basically everything.

646
00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:40,760
Speaker 2: Okay, And Sarah, did you have anything else you wanted

647
00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:42,600
Speaker 2: to make sure to mention?

648
00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:45,920
Speaker 3: Well, I would just like to mention that, you know,

649
00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:49,600
Speaker 3: having a belief about something like a soulmate is not

650
00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:52,640
Speaker 3: necessarily a bad thing. I don't want people to feel

651
00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:56,480
Speaker 3: stupid for having weird beliefs. If you open your third

652
00:37:56,520 --> 00:38:00,239
Speaker 3: eye and you know, believe your partner has been you know,

653
00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:02,160
Speaker 3: in your dreams since birth.

654
00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:03,520
Speaker 1: That's fine to me.

655
00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:07,759
Speaker 3: I don't want to disparage that kind of persons. It's

656
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:12,439
Speaker 3: the systematic coersion that, you know, I'm particularly concerned about

657
00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:13,200
Speaker 3: in my reporting.

658
00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:15,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, but yeah.

659
00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:18,040
Speaker 3: Maybe you could check out my book it's called Don't

660
00:38:18,080 --> 00:38:22,200
Speaker 3: Call It a Cult about the Nexium Case. You can

661
00:38:22,239 --> 00:38:25,440
Speaker 3: follow me on Twitter Sarah Burns b e r MS

662
00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:32,919
Speaker 3: not X I'm dead naming Twitter again. Yeah, yeah, that's

663
00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:33,319
Speaker 3: about it.

664
00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:36,360
Speaker 2: All right, Well, everyone, that's been another episode of It

665
00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:40,360
Speaker 2: Could Happen Here? Until next time. Why don't you go

666
00:38:40,520 --> 00:38:42,360
Speaker 2: happen somewhere else?

667
00:38:58,080 --> 00:39:00,600
Speaker 6: Welcome to It Could Happen Here? A podcast asked about

668
00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:03,200
Speaker 6: stuff falling apart and how it can maybe come back together.

669
00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:07,720
Speaker 6: I'm Garrison Davis. Joining me today is Mia Wong.

670
00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:12,719
Speaker 4: Hello. Hello. So I don't know what this episode is about.

671
00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:15,879
Speaker 4: I have been told the words David Graeber, and that's

672
00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:17,040
Speaker 4: that's that's all I know.

673
00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:23,839
Speaker 6: Gra Graber will will come up. So we've we've been

674
00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:27,439
Speaker 6: we've had a lot of you know, upsetting stuff that

675
00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:30,000
Speaker 6: that's been covered on the pod recently. It's it's it's

676
00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:31,560
Speaker 6: not a it's not it's not a great time in

677
00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:34,440
Speaker 6: the world. It's a lot of upsetting things happening, but

678
00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:39,000
Speaker 6: I thought we we might get a small reprieve from

679
00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:42,799
Speaker 6: all of the all of the uh real real world

680
00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:46,160
Speaker 6: chaos and mayhem to talk about some fake world chaos

681
00:39:46,160 --> 00:39:50,319
Speaker 6: and mayhem. And it's also the it's also you know,

682
00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:54,080
Speaker 6: it's we are We are vastly approaching the holiday season,

683
00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:58,640
Speaker 6: which means that I, I think next week am doing

684
00:39:58,719 --> 00:40:02,399
Speaker 6: my yearly bat Man Returns watch party, which I am

685
00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:05,600
Speaker 6: extremely excited about. Is it's gonna it's gonna be a

686
00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:09,040
Speaker 6: fun time, which is it's probably it's probably the best

687
00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:13,680
Speaker 6: Batman movie. Oh no, it's just the aesthetics. The aesthetics

688
00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:14,760
Speaker 6: are unparalleled.

689
00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:17,920
Speaker 4: But I'm discovering what this episode is about.

690
00:40:18,239 --> 00:40:22,479
Speaker 6: But there is another Batman movie that's also set during

691
00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:26,120
Speaker 6: winter time, which is also also very political, because Batman

692
00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:30,120
Speaker 6: Returns is weirdly political. We have the Penguin running for mayor.

693
00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:35,960
Speaker 6: It exposes the the corrupt core of our political system.

694
00:40:36,120 --> 00:40:38,840
Speaker 6: And there is another Batman movie, also set during winter

695
00:40:39,239 --> 00:40:43,520
Speaker 6: that tries to expose the corrupt core of the political system,

696
00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:47,400
Speaker 6: which is Christopher Nolans twenty twelves and Dark Knight Rises,

697
00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:51,719
Speaker 6: a not very good movie which which.

698
00:40:51,520 --> 00:40:52,120
Speaker 4: I think we have.

699
00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:55,319
Speaker 6: We have referenced before because there's this one essay by

700
00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:59,600
Speaker 6: one David Graber which really gets into the film which

701
00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:02,560
Speaker 6: we're gonna which we're gonna get to. But the reason

702
00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:04,960
Speaker 6: why I actually put together this episode, or I wanted

703
00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:06,799
Speaker 6: to do this, is because when I was at the

704
00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:10,719
Speaker 6: Ghost Conference earlier this year in Seaside, Oregon, as you

705
00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:13,280
Speaker 6: can listen to that two parter which came out last Halloween,

706
00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:18,480
Speaker 6: I got a whole bunch of old magazines from this

707
00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:23,320
Speaker 6: conspiracy talk radio host. Now I love collecting old magazines.

708
00:41:23,680 --> 00:41:27,120
Speaker 6: I find them endlessly fascinating. We have this one from

709
00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:34,320
Speaker 6: two thousand and three called Mkzine oh No. On the cover,

710
00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:39,960
Speaker 6: we have a mind control, ritual abuse and political implications,

711
00:41:40,239 --> 00:41:43,880
Speaker 6: the cult of National Insecurity. I've not flipped through this

712
00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:47,200
Speaker 6: one super in depth before because I'm more taken aback

713
00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:50,919
Speaker 6: by the other magazine I got from twenty twelve called

714
00:41:51,080 --> 00:41:56,200
Speaker 6: Paranoia the Conspiracy Reader. On this cover we have beyond

715
00:41:56,480 --> 00:42:02,280
Speaker 6: MK Ultra Satellite Terrorism in America, science fiction or space Faction,

716
00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:09,240
Speaker 6: oh No, And Dark Knight Kill Programming, which is obviously

717
00:42:09,280 --> 00:42:11,400
Speaker 6: the one we're going to be talking about here today.

718
00:42:11,640 --> 00:42:13,359
Speaker 4: No is this the Sandy thing.

719
00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:16,759
Speaker 6: No, no, this is this is this will briefly get

720
00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:20,279
Speaker 6: into the Aurora mass shooting because this comes up in

721
00:42:20,360 --> 00:42:22,200
Speaker 6: this in this article, I'm not going to get too

722
00:42:22,239 --> 00:42:24,040
Speaker 6: into that's actually not the focus.

723
00:42:24,719 --> 00:42:25,400
Speaker 4: I think I'm realizing.

724
00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:29,160
Speaker 6: I'm confusing my, I'm confusing your There's actually no twelve

725
00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:29,960
Speaker 6: mass shootings.

726
00:42:30,120 --> 00:42:33,320
Speaker 4: No, there's that because there there is actually a Alex

727
00:42:33,400 --> 00:42:37,520
Speaker 4: Jones conspiracy that there was predictive programming in the Dark

728
00:42:37,560 --> 00:42:39,440
Speaker 4: Knight returns or the Dark Knight Rises.

729
00:42:39,680 --> 00:42:42,719
Speaker 6: That's what this is going to be about. Oh okay, okay, okay, Yes,

730
00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:46,279
Speaker 6: this is by discount Alex Jones, Clyde Lewis, who lives

731
00:42:46,280 --> 00:42:46,560
Speaker 6: in power.

732
00:42:46,719 --> 00:42:47,400
Speaker 4: God damn it.

733
00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:52,160
Speaker 6: Uh. There's there's some pretty fun stuff in this issue,

734
00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:54,640
Speaker 6: which we might get too later at the end to

735
00:42:54,719 --> 00:42:57,359
Speaker 6: kind of close out all of our political mamba jomba

736
00:42:57,400 --> 00:42:59,759
Speaker 6: that we will actually get into as well. But I

737
00:42:59,880 --> 00:43:03,879
Speaker 6: I want to first look at how conspiracy theorists read

738
00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:06,560
Speaker 6: this movie and how they read the political aspects of

739
00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:09,120
Speaker 6: this movie, because this movie is obviously very political if

740
00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:11,359
Speaker 6: you've seen it. We will we will get into some

741
00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:13,880
Speaker 6: of some of the stuff, but I want to I

742
00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:17,319
Speaker 6: want to talk about how these conspiracy theorists saw this

743
00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:20,160
Speaker 6: movie because the way that they do political analysis of

744
00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:25,080
Speaker 6: media is very different from the way actual academics and

745
00:43:25,160 --> 00:43:28,520
Speaker 6: people who take this stuff seriously do political analysis of media.

746
00:43:28,560 --> 00:43:31,399
Speaker 6: And I think there's an interesting juxtaposition there. So this

747
00:43:31,480 --> 00:43:34,760
Speaker 6: is this is the cover page for this story.

748
00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:41,320
Speaker 4: The storm is coming. Oh no, no, says one already

749
00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:42,400
Speaker 4: off from bands start.

750
00:43:42,719 --> 00:43:44,959
Speaker 6: Yes, yes, all right, so I will read a little

751
00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:46,400
Speaker 6: bit from this magazine and then we can kind of

752
00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:49,880
Speaker 6: talk about it and then compare to uh. To our

753
00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:53,720
Speaker 6: our colleague David Graeber, As I was watching Christopher Nolans

754
00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:56,760
Speaker 6: The Dark Knight Rises, I didn't know the political substance

755
00:43:56,880 --> 00:43:59,480
Speaker 6: right away, which is a great way to start this

756
00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:02,480
Speaker 6: because the film is so obviously political.

757
00:44:02,600 --> 00:44:06,680
Speaker 4: This this movie like real whoever? Like this movie like

758
00:44:06,840 --> 00:44:10,279
Speaker 4: starts with Bain literally saying he's going to occupy Wall

759
00:44:10,280 --> 00:44:10,799
Speaker 4: Street and.

760
00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:15,040
Speaker 6: Like seizing below see this is Wall Street. This, this

761
00:44:15,120 --> 00:44:18,160
Speaker 6: is this is what we will soon be debated. But anyway,

762
00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:22,279
Speaker 6: I only saw it as a bit of predictive programming

763
00:44:22,600 --> 00:44:25,520
Speaker 6: and a believable scenario as to how it might all begin.

764
00:44:26,200 --> 00:44:29,279
Speaker 6: In The Dark Knight Rises, Catwoman as Slida Kyle and

765
00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:32,800
Speaker 6: Batman as Bruce Wayne, are dancing at a socialight gathering

766
00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:35,800
Speaker 6: when Selena purs in his ear. There's a storm coming,

767
00:44:35,880 --> 00:44:40,080
Speaker 6: mister Wayne. As it turns out, The Dark Knight Rises

768
00:44:40,160 --> 00:44:43,440
Speaker 6: is a damning indictment of the anti corporate movement and

769
00:44:43,480 --> 00:44:47,240
Speaker 6: the threat of social chaos it poses. Despite rallying people

770
00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:50,040
Speaker 6: around their deceased hero Harvey Dent, the rich are losing

771
00:44:50,040 --> 00:44:53,560
Speaker 6: their grip on Gotham City. Antagonist Baine played by Tom Hardy,

772
00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:56,800
Speaker 6: and his League of Shadows rise up against the bankers

773
00:44:56,840 --> 00:45:00,400
Speaker 6: and the elite billionaires like Bruce Wayne, and attack Walsh Street,

774
00:45:00,719 --> 00:45:03,520
Speaker 6: savagely beating the rich while promising the good people of

775
00:45:03,560 --> 00:45:09,000
Speaker 6: Gotham that tomorrow you claim what is rightfully yours. Bain's

776
00:45:09,120 --> 00:45:13,120
Speaker 6: organized violence against the wealthy evokes the reality of Occupy

777
00:45:13,239 --> 00:45:16,200
Speaker 6: Wall Street, but Bain is no Robin Hood. He is

778
00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:19,680
Speaker 6: plotting a massive transfer of wealth through stock exchange after

779
00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:23,400
Speaker 6: inciting civil unrest and taking control of cutting age weapons

780
00:45:23,400 --> 00:45:26,520
Speaker 6: technologies whose algorithm can be directly traced to Bruce Wayne,

781
00:45:26,840 --> 00:45:29,279
Speaker 6: software which will avail them from the fortunes of the rich.

782
00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:32,040
Speaker 6: As the war between the people and the police in

783
00:45:32,080 --> 00:45:35,640
Speaker 6: the Dark Knight rises indicates the predictive programming of statistical

784
00:45:35,719 --> 00:45:38,839
Speaker 6: data could very well undermine the one percent and send

785
00:45:38,840 --> 00:45:41,520
Speaker 6: them into the streets where the disgruntled will eat them.

786
00:45:41,719 --> 00:45:45,239
Speaker 6: Fraudulent practices will be exposed, identity theft, credit card fraud,

787
00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:48,200
Speaker 6: securities fraud, and a number of other practices that the

788
00:45:48,280 --> 00:45:51,080
Speaker 6: elite do in order to bilk the poor out of

789
00:45:51,120 --> 00:45:53,960
Speaker 6: their money. This is one interesting thing about these sorts

790
00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:57,600
Speaker 6: of kind of conspiracy radio guys, how they're both against

791
00:45:57,640 --> 00:46:01,600
Speaker 6: the elite but also fundamental also for the elite. Like

792
00:46:01,920 --> 00:46:04,560
Speaker 6: this film is celebrated as being you know, like it's

793
00:46:04,600 --> 00:46:08,800
Speaker 6: deriding the anti corporate occupy movement, which they hate because

794
00:46:08,840 --> 00:46:11,080
Speaker 6: they hate they would dislike, you know, a left wing

795
00:46:11,080 --> 00:46:11,960
Speaker 6: popular uprising.

796
00:46:12,239 --> 00:46:13,520
Speaker 4: But in the end they.

797
00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:19,160
Speaker 6: Actually prefer this corporate like illuminati to the actual alternative.

798
00:46:19,600 --> 00:46:22,160
Speaker 4: Well, and it's it's it's interesting too, like the ways

799
00:46:22,200 --> 00:46:25,839
Speaker 4: that they think that like rich people exploit people is

800
00:46:25,880 --> 00:46:29,759
Speaker 4: through like credit card fraud is like that that's how

801
00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:31,160
Speaker 4: you think rich people get rich.

802
00:46:31,280 --> 00:46:34,520
Speaker 6: Like really, like all right, we are almost at the

803
00:46:34,600 --> 00:46:38,359
Speaker 6: end here. Christopher Nolan's epic sounds the alarm of the

804
00:46:38,440 --> 00:46:42,200
Speaker 6: advent of an organized puppet master anarchy that plans to

805
00:46:42,200 --> 00:46:45,640
Speaker 6: topple the government by exposing and gutting the fortunes of

806
00:46:45,719 --> 00:46:48,480
Speaker 6: the elite. In real life, it might look like an

807
00:46:48,520 --> 00:46:52,360
Speaker 6: occupy in the streets, sands and evil drums soundtrack pounding

808
00:46:52,400 --> 00:46:56,320
Speaker 6: out the perennial battle between the haves and the have nots,

809
00:46:57,000 --> 00:47:00,560
Speaker 6: while the Dark Knight rises acknowledges the systemic inequality and justice.

810
00:47:00,800 --> 00:47:03,399
Speaker 6: It is not the rich, but anarchy that is the

811
00:47:03,440 --> 00:47:05,160
Speaker 6: bane of Gotham's existence.

812
00:47:05,480 --> 00:47:05,960
Speaker 4: It get it.

813
00:47:07,560 --> 00:47:11,279
Speaker 6: Nolan portrays the occupy anti hero Bane as a demagogue,

814
00:47:11,360 --> 00:47:15,440
Speaker 6: ultimately seeking to speculate on legitimate grievances. And when Baine

815
00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:17,720
Speaker 6: or hands the reigns of power over to the people,

816
00:47:18,160 --> 00:47:20,640
Speaker 6: they really won't know what to do with it, which

817
00:47:20,680 --> 00:47:22,600
Speaker 6: is something that never happens in the movie.

818
00:47:22,640 --> 00:47:23,080
Speaker 4: By the way.

819
00:47:23,200 --> 00:47:27,880
Speaker 6: Oh now this is at this point Clyde Lewis stops

820
00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:31,480
Speaker 6: talking to the movie and instead talks about this bit

821
00:47:31,560 --> 00:47:36,040
Speaker 6: of predictive programming in the movie, which has a few

822
00:47:36,160 --> 00:47:39,600
Speaker 6: kind of aspects. Then there is the intriguing subplot that

823
00:47:39,760 --> 00:47:42,399
Speaker 6: seemingly seeped into reality on the eve of The Dark

824
00:47:42,480 --> 00:47:46,000
Speaker 6: Knight Rice's release, that a software company takes its findings

825
00:47:46,040 --> 00:47:48,800
Speaker 6: to the Supreme court and exposes so called political heroes

826
00:47:49,080 --> 00:47:53,480
Speaker 6: which would lead to riots and marauding shooters creating mass casualties.

827
00:47:54,120 --> 00:47:56,800
Speaker 6: Imagine that intelligence is aware of the threat and issues

828
00:47:56,880 --> 00:47:59,560
Speaker 6: a declassified memo from the Department of Homeland Security warning

829
00:47:59,640 --> 00:48:03,200
Speaker 6: lawn Hosement that terrorists could be killing people in movie theaters.

830
00:48:03,719 --> 00:48:06,640
Speaker 6: All that is needed is the catalyzing event and immediately

831
00:48:06,880 --> 00:48:10,600
Speaker 6: the police estate is activated. Flash riots take place in cities,

832
00:48:10,880 --> 00:48:14,560
Speaker 6: civil unrest, bruise under the radar. Truth becomes stranger than

833
00:48:14,560 --> 00:48:17,359
Speaker 6: fiction as we examined the media stories surrounding the main

834
00:48:17,480 --> 00:48:21,240
Speaker 6: story of the so called brainwashed low nut James Holmes

835
00:48:21,400 --> 00:48:23,759
Speaker 6: opening fire in a movie theater in Aurora, Colorado, on

836
00:48:23,840 --> 00:48:28,480
Speaker 6: July twentieth, twenty twelve, an allegedly killing twelve and injuring

837
00:48:28,680 --> 00:48:33,279
Speaker 6: fifty nine others. Interesting use of the word allegedly there

838
00:48:33,920 --> 00:48:37,120
Speaker 6: in regarding regarding the people that were killed.

839
00:48:37,360 --> 00:48:37,839
Speaker 4: Oh boy.

840
00:48:38,080 --> 00:48:41,080
Speaker 6: And then the next sentence is really where things pick up.

841
00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:45,280
Speaker 6: Not only is James Holmes connected to the neuroscience super

842
00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:50,000
Speaker 6: Soldier Peak Soldier performance experiments, but his father works for

843
00:48:50,040 --> 00:48:53,279
Speaker 6: a software company that analyzes fraud. So I'm not going

844
00:48:53,360 --> 00:48:55,200
Speaker 6: to actually read the next bit because it is just

845
00:48:55,560 --> 00:49:01,640
Speaker 6: the ramblings of conspiracy brained lunatic who think that because

846
00:49:01,920 --> 00:49:06,040
Speaker 6: the shooter's dad was a neuroscientist, that therefore his son

847
00:49:06,160 --> 00:49:09,480
Speaker 6: must have been this victim of a super soldier program

848
00:49:09,520 --> 00:49:13,080
Speaker 6: to brainwash you to activate the police state. Once you

849
00:49:13,560 --> 00:49:16,000
Speaker 6: receive a bit of predictive programming.

850
00:49:15,880 --> 00:49:19,520
Speaker 4: And the other I will I will get to.

851
00:49:19,600 --> 00:49:23,240
Speaker 6: One other paragraph and then will be done with this article,

852
00:49:23,239 --> 00:49:27,200
Speaker 6: because there's really not much more substance quote. The chilling

853
00:49:27,239 --> 00:49:30,760
Speaker 6: predictive programming looming behind the dark Knight Rises does not escape,

854
00:49:30,800 --> 00:49:34,840
Speaker 6: at least the unconscious of those watching. Bain, the leader

855
00:49:34,880 --> 00:49:39,640
Speaker 6: of the fictional anarchist mob, decides to plant bombs in

856
00:49:39,680 --> 00:49:43,759
Speaker 6: the Gotham underground, the final target being a stadium where

857
00:49:43,800 --> 00:49:47,120
Speaker 6: the Mayor of Gotham attends a sports event. A young

858
00:49:47,200 --> 00:49:50,359
Speaker 6: boy sings the national anthem with a British accent. Bain

859
00:49:50,520 --> 00:49:53,920
Speaker 6: pauses to listen to the distinct voice, then says, Nott

860
00:49:54,040 --> 00:49:57,840
Speaker 6: the Gerbers brigand after which the stadium is bombed and

861
00:49:57,880 --> 00:50:03,160
Speaker 6: the mayor is killed in his reserved viewing box. Now,

862
00:50:04,840 --> 00:50:07,400
Speaker 6: Clyde Lewis believes that this was a bit of predictive

863
00:50:07,440 --> 00:50:11,520
Speaker 6: programming in order to prepare people for a mash casualty

864
00:50:11,520 --> 00:50:15,160
Speaker 6: event at the London twenty twelve Olympics, which you might

865
00:50:15,400 --> 00:50:20,040
Speaker 6: you might know did not happen, was not was.

866
00:50:20,040 --> 00:50:20,520
Speaker 4: Not a thing.

867
00:50:20,880 --> 00:50:23,359
Speaker 6: But he is convinced that this is part of some

868
00:50:23,400 --> 00:50:25,880
Speaker 6: predictive programming to either trigger this event, or cover up

869
00:50:25,920 --> 00:50:28,840
Speaker 6: this event, or allude to this event again, an event

870
00:50:28,880 --> 00:50:32,799
Speaker 6: that did not happen. So that's, you know, as as

871
00:50:32,840 --> 00:50:34,840
Speaker 6: as we're going to be talking about, you know, how

872
00:50:34,960 --> 00:50:39,040
Speaker 6: people view mass uprising and political movements in media for

873
00:50:39,040 --> 00:50:41,120
Speaker 6: the for the rest of this episode, this is how

874
00:50:41,120 --> 00:50:46,400
Speaker 6: a certain sect of conservative does their own media analysis,

875
00:50:46,440 --> 00:50:48,360
Speaker 6: which I think is a really is a really fun,

876
00:50:49,080 --> 00:50:52,279
Speaker 6: really fun look into how their brains operate, sorting a

877
00:50:52,360 --> 00:50:56,920
Speaker 6: very political film into these into these predictive programming boxes.

878
00:50:57,400 --> 00:51:00,560
Speaker 6: But we will we will return to talk about the

879
00:51:00,680 --> 00:51:03,160
Speaker 6: Virgin David Graber and the chad Mark Fisher.

880
00:51:05,080 --> 00:51:09,720
Speaker 4: After this ad break, we are back.

881
00:51:09,880 --> 00:51:12,600
Speaker 6: I am I am waiting watching for the rich to be

882
00:51:12,680 --> 00:51:16,359
Speaker 6: thrown from their balconies as wealth as redistributed and a

883
00:51:16,400 --> 00:51:19,400
Speaker 6: man in a very fancy coat takes over a sporting event.

884
00:51:19,880 --> 00:51:25,200
Speaker 6: So I read almost every serious political analysis of the

885
00:51:25,719 --> 00:51:28,960
Speaker 6: Darknight Races that I could find from fascists, from conservatives,

886
00:51:29,000 --> 00:51:31,879
Speaker 6: from liberals, and from leftists and anarchists.

887
00:51:32,840 --> 00:51:33,759
Speaker 4: Everyone agrees that.

888
00:51:33,719 --> 00:51:39,520
Speaker 6: This film has some very very obvious occupy parallels. We're

889
00:51:39,520 --> 00:51:41,400
Speaker 6: going to get into how much of those are actually

890
00:51:41,520 --> 00:51:43,640
Speaker 6: kind of built into the film's production versus how much

891
00:51:43,680 --> 00:51:49,040
Speaker 6: of those are more or less coincidental. Now, unfortunately for me,

892
00:51:50,080 --> 00:51:53,879
Speaker 6: not actually unfortunately, because I actually do like Graber a lot,

893
00:51:53,960 --> 00:51:57,439
Speaker 6: but his analysis was by far the best out of

894
00:51:57,480 --> 00:52:04,279
Speaker 6: anybody else's in regards to this film, And unfortunately the schizoid,

895
00:52:04,280 --> 00:52:07,440
Speaker 6: acid fueled chaos magic of Mark Fisher kind of paled

896
00:52:07,440 --> 00:52:11,080
Speaker 6: in comparison to the precision of the anthropologist David Graeber

897
00:52:11,320 --> 00:52:13,839
Speaker 6: in terms of their analysis of this film, but both

898
00:52:13,880 --> 00:52:16,279
Speaker 6: of them had roughly the same opinion. Graber has just

899
00:52:16,320 --> 00:52:18,360
Speaker 6: went into a lot more depth about how kind of

900
00:52:18,360 --> 00:52:22,280
Speaker 6: this film actually politically operates. So I'll be mostly talking

901
00:52:22,280 --> 00:52:25,080
Speaker 6: about in quoting from Graber, with a few things from

902
00:52:25,120 --> 00:52:27,640
Speaker 6: Fisher kind of mixed in, and then we'll compare it

903
00:52:27,719 --> 00:52:30,600
Speaker 6: to some stuff in Breitbart and The Daily Caller and

904
00:52:31,040 --> 00:52:35,080
Speaker 6: a few other reactions from liberals who enjoyed the film

905
00:52:35,120 --> 00:52:39,680
Speaker 6: too much and are are unwilling to kind of seed

906
00:52:39,840 --> 00:52:43,600
Speaker 6: this conservative ground to Nolan's twenty twelve film, and I

907
00:52:43,640 --> 00:52:45,279
Speaker 6: think this is actually really interesting to talk about this

908
00:52:45,280 --> 00:52:47,920
Speaker 6: film this year after the release of Oppenheimer, which I

909
00:52:47,920 --> 00:52:50,800
Speaker 6: think is Nolan's probably most politically mature work.

910
00:52:51,360 --> 00:52:53,319
Speaker 4: And he has definitely grown a.

911
00:52:53,239 --> 00:52:55,600
Speaker 6: Lot in the past ten years as a filmmaker, at

912
00:52:55,680 --> 00:52:58,879
Speaker 6: least in terms of his his ability to get into

913
00:52:58,920 --> 00:53:03,200
Speaker 6: politics in a way that is not just purely reactionary,

914
00:53:03,239 --> 00:53:05,600
Speaker 6: where I think a lot of his early films are

915
00:53:05,640 --> 00:53:09,600
Speaker 6: kind of absorbed by this reactionariness. And I think I

916
00:53:09,640 --> 00:53:11,799
Speaker 6: think he has matured a decent bit, at least as

917
00:53:11,840 --> 00:53:16,040
Speaker 6: a as a political filmmaker. So we will start with

918
00:53:16,360 --> 00:53:21,640
Speaker 6: a paragraph from Graber quote Christopher Nolan's Batman, The Dark

919
00:53:21,719 --> 00:53:24,720
Speaker 6: Knight Rises Not the title of the film is really

920
00:53:24,760 --> 00:53:28,800
Speaker 6: a piece of anti occupy propaganda. Christopher Nolan, the director,

921
00:53:28,840 --> 00:53:31,400
Speaker 6: claims that the script was written before the movement even started,

922
00:53:31,640 --> 00:53:34,080
Speaker 6: and that the famous scenes of the occupation of New

923
00:53:34,160 --> 00:53:37,640
Speaker 6: York Gotham City were really inspired by Dickens's account of

924
00:53:37,640 --> 00:53:41,440
Speaker 6: the French Revolution. This is probably true, but it's disingenuous.

925
00:53:41,560 --> 00:53:44,799
Speaker 6: Everyone knows Hollywood scripts are continually rewritten while movies are

926
00:53:44,880 --> 00:53:47,880
Speaker 6: in production. And when it comes to messaging, even details

927
00:53:47,880 --> 00:53:49,960
Speaker 6: like precise wording or where a scene a shot can

928
00:53:50,000 --> 00:53:52,640
Speaker 6: make all the difference. Then there's the fact that the

929
00:53:52,719 --> 00:53:56,280
Speaker 6: villains actually do attack the stock exchange. Still, it's precisely

930
00:53:56,320 --> 00:53:59,600
Speaker 6: this ambition, the filmmaker's willingness to take on the great

931
00:53:59,640 --> 00:54:04,680
Speaker 6: issues of the day, that ruins the movie. So the

932
00:54:04,880 --> 00:54:08,799
Speaker 6: script was written well before Occupy started. Shooting for Dark

933
00:54:08,880 --> 00:54:12,280
Speaker 6: Knight rices ended two months after the start of Occupy.

934
00:54:12,800 --> 00:54:15,840
Speaker 6: Most of the shooting for the film took place before

935
00:54:15,920 --> 00:54:19,200
Speaker 6: Occupy even happened. And now in twenty eleven, it was

936
00:54:19,200 --> 00:54:21,920
Speaker 6: widely misreported that the movie was going to be filming

937
00:54:22,040 --> 00:54:26,280
Speaker 6: at Occupy itself, which started from like I think something

938
00:54:26,280 --> 00:54:30,520
Speaker 6: in the La Times which just got blown blown out

939
00:54:30,520 --> 00:54:30,920
Speaker 6: of proportion.

940
00:54:31,120 --> 00:54:31,720
Speaker 4: Was not true.

941
00:54:31,840 --> 00:54:33,680
Speaker 6: They did shoot in New York, but they did not

942
00:54:33,719 --> 00:54:35,040
Speaker 6: shoot at Occupy.

943
00:54:34,920 --> 00:54:36,359
Speaker 4: Yap boblcause would have got run out.

944
00:54:37,560 --> 00:54:43,480
Speaker 6: Probably now, leading up to twenty eleven, both Nolan and

945
00:54:43,600 --> 00:54:47,839
Speaker 6: what became Occupy were on very similar conceptual roads. They

946
00:54:47,840 --> 00:54:50,359
Speaker 6: were just leading to two very different places. The Dark

947
00:54:50,440 --> 00:54:51,880
Speaker 6: Knight released in the middle of the two thousand and

948
00:54:51,880 --> 00:54:54,359
Speaker 6: eight financial crisis, right after the two thousand and eight

949
00:54:54,360 --> 00:54:57,040
Speaker 6: writers strike, ended, So there were a lot of class

950
00:54:57,080 --> 00:54:59,960
Speaker 6: issues circling around in Nolan's bubble, so it made sense

951
00:55:00,239 --> 00:55:03,480
Speaker 6: that Nolan's next Batman flick would tackle these things that

952
00:55:03,600 --> 00:55:06,520
Speaker 6: rose to cultural prominence by the time he finished The

953
00:55:06,560 --> 00:55:10,040
Speaker 6: More Patriot Act inspired at The Dark Knight Now, Nolan

954
00:55:10,120 --> 00:55:14,440
Speaker 6: and other writers obviously saw economic inequality and corruption seating

955
00:55:14,480 --> 00:55:17,840
Speaker 6: people's anger and the rising possibility of civil unrest, and

956
00:55:17,880 --> 00:55:19,640
Speaker 6: that was put into the script and then it just

957
00:55:19,800 --> 00:55:23,839
Speaker 6: happened two months before they finished shooting Now. Nolan also

958
00:55:23,920 --> 00:55:26,840
Speaker 6: took a lot from the Tale of Two Cities. This

959
00:55:27,080 --> 00:55:29,040
Speaker 6: probably more than anything else. The Dark Knight Rises is

960
00:55:29,040 --> 00:55:31,560
Speaker 6: actually based on the Tale of Two Cities, a passage

961
00:55:31,560 --> 00:55:33,320
Speaker 6: of which is read at the end of the film,

962
00:55:33,640 --> 00:55:37,400
Speaker 6: and there's plenty of parallels to the French Revolution, including

963
00:55:37,440 --> 00:55:40,840
Speaker 6: the storming of Bastille. There's actually two prison breaks inside

964
00:55:41,480 --> 00:55:43,839
Speaker 6: The Dark Knight Rises. There is the release of Black Eight,

965
00:55:43,880 --> 00:55:47,600
Speaker 6: and then there's of course when Bruce Wayne escapes the

966
00:55:47,680 --> 00:55:50,240
Speaker 6: Giant Hole in the ground and frees the other prisoners

967
00:55:50,280 --> 00:55:54,560
Speaker 6: as well. So still, throughout all of these kind of

968
00:55:55,000 --> 00:55:57,760
Speaker 6: class issues that Nolan is talking about in this film,

969
00:55:58,280 --> 00:56:02,120
Speaker 6: he still shows a deep trust of populism or at

970
00:56:02,120 --> 00:56:04,480
Speaker 6: the very least feared how easily it could be subverted

971
00:56:04,520 --> 00:56:07,600
Speaker 6: in a charged financial climate. I'm going to read one

972
00:56:07,800 --> 00:56:11,320
Speaker 6: one quote from Fisher here. Quote when Nolan revived the

973
00:56:11,360 --> 00:56:14,440
Speaker 6: Batman franchise in two thousand and five, the setting Gotham

974
00:56:14,440 --> 00:56:17,080
Speaker 6: in the midst of an economic depression seemed like an

975
00:56:17,160 --> 00:56:20,320
Speaker 6: achronistic reference to the superheroes origins in the nineteen thirties.

976
00:56:20,719 --> 00:56:22,399
Speaker 6: Two thousand and eight to The Dark Knight was too

977
00:56:22,480 --> 00:56:25,360
Speaker 6: early to register the impact of the financial crisis. But

978
00:56:25,400 --> 00:56:27,719
Speaker 6: The Dark Knight Rises clearly attempts to respond to the

979
00:56:27,719 --> 00:56:30,800
Speaker 6: two thousand and eight situation. The film isn't this simple

980
00:56:30,880 --> 00:56:33,920
Speaker 6: conservative parable that the right wingers would like, but in

981
00:56:33,960 --> 00:56:37,279
Speaker 6: the end it is a reactionary vision, which I think

982
00:56:37,400 --> 00:56:40,120
Speaker 6: is the fairest way to look at this film. But

983
00:56:40,520 --> 00:56:43,560
Speaker 6: now we're going to go deep into Graver's analysis, which

984
00:56:43,600 --> 00:56:46,439
Speaker 6: is by far, probably one of the best write ups

985
00:56:46,480 --> 00:56:49,560
Speaker 6: on twentieth century superheroes and their role in American culture.

986
00:56:50,120 --> 00:56:51,640
Speaker 5: It's my favorite by far. This is the one that

987
00:56:51,640 --> 00:56:54,359
Speaker 5: I always like push on people when people talk about Marvel.

988
00:56:54,120 --> 00:56:56,960
Speaker 6: Because yes, no, absolutely, I mean this is this is

989
00:56:57,239 --> 00:56:59,720
Speaker 6: I say that you've referenced a lot on this show.

990
00:57:00,400 --> 00:57:02,360
Speaker 6: I've been I've been going into a bit of a

991
00:57:02,360 --> 00:57:06,880
Speaker 6: graver resurgence lately. I deeply enjoyed his essay on Puppets,

992
00:57:07,160 --> 00:57:09,440
Speaker 6: which I'm going to respond to by writing an essay

993
00:57:09,480 --> 00:57:13,200
Speaker 6: on why nihilists hate puppets and except the U and

994
00:57:13,520 --> 00:57:16,760
Speaker 6: except the adversarial framing of the police. But that is

995
00:57:16,800 --> 00:57:19,320
Speaker 6: a digression. Now we will we will get back to

996
00:57:19,400 --> 00:57:22,920
Speaker 6: Graber's essay in the New Inquiry titled superposition.

997
00:57:23,600 --> 00:57:25,480
Speaker 5: Oh the thing, the thing I want to mention here

998
00:57:25,480 --> 00:57:28,920
Speaker 5: about this essays he wanted to Oh God, what was that?

999
00:57:29,280 --> 00:57:32,080
Speaker 5: He wanted to call it on Batman and the problem

1000
00:57:32,120 --> 00:57:33,240
Speaker 5: of constituent power.

1001
00:57:33,040 --> 00:57:35,320
Speaker 4: But they wouldn't let him do it. So it's well

1002
00:57:35,480 --> 00:57:36,600
Speaker 4: superposition instead.

1003
00:57:36,680 --> 00:57:39,120
Speaker 6: This is that is certainly what it's actually about, is

1004
00:57:39,120 --> 00:57:43,120
Speaker 6: constituent power. Will we will get to that very shortly.

1005
00:57:43,400 --> 00:57:44,960
Speaker 4: So quote.

1006
00:57:45,280 --> 00:57:48,600
Speaker 6: Superheroes are a product of their historical origins. Superman is

1007
00:57:48,640 --> 00:57:51,920
Speaker 6: a Depression era displaced to Iowa farm boy. Peter Parker,

1008
00:57:51,960 --> 00:57:54,280
Speaker 6: a product of the sixties, is a smart ass, working

1009
00:57:54,280 --> 00:57:57,600
Speaker 6: class kid from Queen's Batman. The billionaire play Boy is

1010
00:57:57,640 --> 00:58:00,480
Speaker 6: the scion of the military industrial complex that was created

1011
00:58:00,760 --> 00:58:03,320
Speaker 6: just as he was at the beginning of World War Two.

1012
00:58:04,440 --> 00:58:07,440
Speaker 6: I will say the early origins of Batman are far

1013
00:58:07,520 --> 00:58:09,440
Speaker 6: divorced from that, but that is certainly what Batman has

1014
00:58:09,440 --> 00:58:10,120
Speaker 6: evolved into.

1015
00:58:11,440 --> 00:58:11,800
Speaker 4: Quote.

1016
00:58:12,120 --> 00:58:15,320
Speaker 6: These heroes are purely reactionary in a literal sense. They

1017
00:58:15,320 --> 00:58:17,440
Speaker 6: have no projects of their own, at least not in

1018
00:58:17,480 --> 00:58:20,800
Speaker 6: their roles as heroes. Almost never do superheroes make, create,

1019
00:58:20,920 --> 00:58:24,640
Speaker 6: or build anything. The villains, in contrast, are endlessly creative.

1020
00:58:24,960 --> 00:58:27,920
Speaker 6: They are full of plans and projects and ideas. Clearly,

1021
00:58:27,920 --> 00:58:30,920
Speaker 6: we are supposed to, at first, without constently realizing it,

1022
00:58:31,160 --> 00:58:34,320
Speaker 6: identify with the villains, after all, they're the ones having

1023
00:58:34,320 --> 00:58:37,280
Speaker 6: all the fun. Then, of course we feel guilty about it,

1024
00:58:37,440 --> 00:58:40,160
Speaker 6: re identify with the hero and have even more fun

1025
00:58:40,240 --> 00:58:45,040
Speaker 6: watching the super ego clubbing the errant id back into submission.

1026
00:58:45,800 --> 00:58:50,480
Speaker 6: This essay that Graber wrote is very Freudian. Craper makes

1027
00:58:50,520 --> 00:58:53,160
Speaker 6: a lot of freud references in this. I am not

1028
00:58:53,200 --> 00:58:56,080
Speaker 6: going to be getting into as much, but superheroes are

1029
00:58:56,160 --> 00:58:57,840
Speaker 6: also very very Freudian.

1030
00:58:58,680 --> 00:59:01,600
Speaker 5: Yeah, I want to say, thinking about this specific passage,

1031
00:59:01,680 --> 00:59:04,600
Speaker 5: or specifically the way that you're encouraged identify with the

1032
00:59:04,640 --> 00:59:07,840
Speaker 5: hero and then like that gets like that gets subverted.

1033
00:59:07,840 --> 00:59:09,120
Speaker 4: You're supposed to come back to the hero.

1034
00:59:09,760 --> 00:59:11,800
Speaker 6: So this used to be a kind of so to

1035
00:59:11,840 --> 00:59:14,120
Speaker 6: identify with the villain and then yeah, and then come

1036
00:59:14,160 --> 00:59:17,120
Speaker 6: back back to the Yeah. So and this is this

1037
00:59:17,240 --> 00:59:19,640
Speaker 6: works as like a conserv ave project of conservative ideology,

1038
00:59:19,640 --> 00:59:22,800
Speaker 6: and this used to be like an implicit thing in

1039
00:59:22,840 --> 00:59:25,720
Speaker 6: these movies. And then you get to Black Panther, which

1040
00:59:25,760 --> 00:59:29,040
Speaker 6: is literally well literally they just like that. That is

1041
00:59:29,120 --> 00:59:32,240
Speaker 6: just the like they stopped being subtle and we're like, hey,

1042
00:59:32,240 --> 00:59:34,160
Speaker 6: here's a guy who's an anti imperial list and then

1043
00:59:34,200 --> 00:59:36,200
Speaker 6: the ending reveal is, oh my god, he's actually evil.

1044
00:59:36,800 --> 00:59:39,439
Speaker 6: In terms of Marvel, I would say yes, I would.

1045
00:59:39,480 --> 00:59:43,480
Speaker 6: I think my two favorite superhero movies, which would be

1046
00:59:43,560 --> 00:59:46,920
Speaker 6: Tim Burton's Batman and Batman Returns, do the reverse of

1047
00:59:46,920 --> 00:59:49,960
Speaker 6: this where very obviously the villain is the main characters

1048
00:59:50,000 --> 00:59:52,120
Speaker 6: of both of those and Batman is really just a

1049
00:59:52,160 --> 00:59:54,640
Speaker 6: side character. And I think that was actually work better

1050
00:59:54,640 --> 00:59:57,360
Speaker 6: for this medium so much more. Oh yeah, but when

1051
00:59:57,400 --> 01:00:00,680
Speaker 6: it comes to Marvel, absolutely yeah, they're just like openly

1052
01:00:00,720 --> 01:00:03,280
Speaker 6: doing this now. It's really sort of like, yeah, this

1053
01:00:03,400 --> 01:00:04,720
Speaker 6: was what the second one's about.

1054
01:00:04,720 --> 01:00:06,840
Speaker 4: Two yes, yes, now.

1055
01:00:06,960 --> 01:00:10,360
Speaker 6: Grayber then talks about kind of what the project of

1056
01:00:10,440 --> 01:00:12,840
Speaker 6: these comic books were originally supposed to be, and how

1057
01:00:12,880 --> 01:00:16,160
Speaker 6: that kind of continues on today into pop culture.

1058
01:00:16,680 --> 01:00:16,919
Speaker 4: Quote.

1059
01:00:17,080 --> 01:00:20,400
Speaker 6: Politically speaking, superhero comic books can seem pretty innocuous. If

1060
01:00:20,440 --> 01:00:21,840
Speaker 6: all a comic is trying to do is tell a

1061
01:00:21,840 --> 01:00:24,320
Speaker 6: bunch of adolescent boys that everyone has a certain desire

1062
01:00:24,360 --> 01:00:26,840
Speaker 6: for chaos and mayhem, but ultimately such desires need to

1063
01:00:26,880 --> 01:00:30,560
Speaker 6: be controlled, the implications would not seem especially dire, especially

1064
01:00:30,600 --> 01:00:33,560
Speaker 6: because the message still does carry a healthy dose of ambivalence.

1065
01:00:34,120 --> 01:00:36,640
Speaker 6: After all, the heroes of even the most right leaning

1066
01:00:36,680 --> 01:00:39,320
Speaker 6: action movies seem to spend much of their time smashing

1067
01:00:39,400 --> 01:00:41,720
Speaker 6: up suburban shopping malls, something that many of us would

1068
01:00:41,760 --> 01:00:44,080
Speaker 6: like to do at some point in our lives. In

1069
01:00:44,120 --> 01:00:46,960
Speaker 6: the case of most comic book superheroes, however, the mayhem

1070
01:00:47,040 --> 01:00:51,320
Speaker 6: has an extremely conservative political implication. This is where we

1071
01:00:51,320 --> 01:00:55,480
Speaker 6: could start getting into God versus the people and using

1072
01:00:55,520 --> 01:00:57,840
Speaker 6: both of these things as constructs. Right, neither of these

1073
01:00:57,840 --> 01:01:00,959
Speaker 6: things really fully exist in a super material way. Both

1074
01:01:00,960 --> 01:01:03,520
Speaker 6: of these things are constructs quote unquote God, quote unquote

1075
01:01:03,560 --> 01:01:07,000
Speaker 6: the people. They both occupy a very similar ontological rule,

1076
01:01:07,600 --> 01:01:10,959
Speaker 6: and this is something that Graper gets into quote any

1077
01:01:11,000 --> 01:01:13,720
Speaker 6: power capable of creating a system of law cannot itself

1078
01:01:13,760 --> 01:01:16,360
Speaker 6: be bound by them. In the Middle Ages, the solution

1079
01:01:16,520 --> 01:01:19,360
Speaker 6: was simple. The legal order was created either directly or

1080
01:01:19,400 --> 01:01:24,280
Speaker 6: indirectly by God. The English, American and French revolutions changed

1081
01:01:24,440 --> 01:01:28,440
Speaker 6: all that when they created the notion of popular sovereignty,

1082
01:01:28,760 --> 01:01:32,120
Speaker 6: declaring that the power once held by kings and by extension, God,

1083
01:01:32,640 --> 01:01:37,320
Speaker 6: is now held by an entity called the people. The people, however,

1084
01:01:37,480 --> 01:01:40,080
Speaker 6: are bound by the laws. They are able to create

1085
01:01:40,120 --> 01:01:44,440
Speaker 6: the laws through those revolutions themselves. But of course revolutions

1086
01:01:44,480 --> 01:01:48,880
Speaker 6: are acts of law breaking, so laws emerge from illegal activity.

1087
01:01:49,480 --> 01:01:52,360
Speaker 6: This creates a fundamental incoherence and the very idea of

1088
01:01:52,440 --> 01:01:55,760
Speaker 6: modern government, which assumes that the state has a monopoly

1089
01:01:55,800 --> 01:01:58,320
Speaker 6: on the legitimate use of violence. It's okay for police

1090
01:01:58,320 --> 01:02:01,120
Speaker 6: to use violence because they are enforcing a law. The

1091
01:02:01,200 --> 01:02:04,360
Speaker 6: law is legitimate because it's rooted in the constitution. The

1092
01:02:04,360 --> 01:02:06,560
Speaker 6: constitution is legitimate because it comes from the people. That

1093
01:02:06,600 --> 01:02:08,920
Speaker 6: people create the constitution by acts of illegal violence. It

1094
01:02:08,960 --> 01:02:10,320
Speaker 6: all circles back on itself.

1095
01:02:10,840 --> 01:02:11,240
Speaker 4: Quote.

1096
01:02:11,640 --> 01:02:14,120
Speaker 6: The obvious question, then, is how does one tell the

1097
01:02:14,160 --> 01:02:18,919
Speaker 6: difference between the people and a mere rampaging mob, Which

1098
01:02:19,000 --> 01:02:21,520
Speaker 6: is a question that comes up all the time across

1099
01:02:21,520 --> 01:02:26,320
Speaker 6: the political spectrum from anarchists to fascists to liberals. This

1100
01:02:26,360 --> 01:02:29,360
Speaker 6: is a debate that still goes on. Is without the law,

1101
01:02:29,560 --> 01:02:31,280
Speaker 6: what is the difference between the people and just a

1102
01:02:31,360 --> 01:02:35,760
Speaker 6: lynch mob. Now Graber doesn't really give an answer to this,

1103
01:02:35,800 --> 01:02:39,120
Speaker 6: because this doesn't really have an answer. This is a

1104
01:02:39,240 --> 01:02:42,360
Speaker 6: very vague question, and kind of, as Graber points out,

1105
01:02:42,560 --> 01:02:43,640
Speaker 6: it's vague by design.

1106
01:02:43,760 --> 01:02:44,160
Speaker 4: Quote.

1107
01:02:44,520 --> 01:02:47,880
Speaker 6: The response by mainstream, respectable opinion is to push this

1108
01:02:48,000 --> 01:02:51,000
Speaker 6: problem as far away as possible. The usual line is

1109
01:02:51,000 --> 01:02:53,040
Speaker 6: that the age of revolutions is over. Now we can

1110
01:02:53,160 --> 01:02:56,920
Speaker 6: change the constitution or legal standards by legal means, this

1111
01:02:57,000 --> 01:02:59,560
Speaker 6: of course means that the basic structures will never change.

1112
01:03:00,080 --> 01:03:00,520
Speaker 4: Quote.

1113
01:03:00,720 --> 01:03:04,760
Speaker 6: And this is where kind of Graver talks about how

1114
01:03:05,560 --> 01:03:09,960
Speaker 6: the role of tradition has totally taken over the legal

1115
01:03:10,000 --> 01:03:14,120
Speaker 6: implications of our system. Here, how the US, which was

1116
01:03:14,160 --> 01:03:18,080
Speaker 6: you know, at once progressive in its electoral college and

1117
01:03:18,080 --> 01:03:21,800
Speaker 6: two party system, is now quite old fashioned compared to

1118
01:03:21,840 --> 01:03:25,360
Speaker 6: a lot of other you know, popular democratic countries. There's

1119
01:03:25,680 --> 01:03:28,240
Speaker 6: a good line quote we base the legitimacy of the

1120
01:03:28,280 --> 01:03:30,760
Speaker 6: whole system on the consent of the people, despite the

1121
01:03:30,760 --> 01:03:32,920
Speaker 6: fact that the only people who were ever really consulted

1122
01:03:32,920 --> 01:03:35,560
Speaker 6: on the matter lived over two hundred years ago in

1123
01:03:35,600 --> 01:03:39,720
Speaker 6: America at least, quote unquote, the people are long since dead.

1124
01:03:40,560 --> 01:03:44,160
Speaker 6: So now we have this situation that we have this

1125
01:03:44,320 --> 01:03:47,160
Speaker 6: idea of the legal order which comes from God, which

1126
01:03:47,240 --> 01:03:50,240
Speaker 6: then came from armed revolution, and now it just comes

1127
01:03:50,240 --> 01:03:53,800
Speaker 6: from this idea of sheer tradition. Now, there's obviously a

1128
01:03:53,800 --> 01:03:57,120
Speaker 6: lot of American politicians who would want to give this

1129
01:03:57,200 --> 01:03:58,200
Speaker 6: power back to God.

1130
01:04:01,320 --> 01:04:05,400
Speaker 5: But even then, I was like, it's really hard to

1131
01:04:05,840 --> 01:04:08,440
Speaker 5: actually do that.

1132
01:04:08,960 --> 01:04:11,520
Speaker 4: Like, even even governments that are.

1133
01:04:11,440 --> 01:04:14,880
Speaker 5: Very explicitly theocratic, like for example, like Oron, it's like, well,

1134
01:04:15,000 --> 01:04:17,960
Speaker 5: they still have elections and they still have this like

1135
01:04:18,320 --> 01:04:22,480
Speaker 5: the the notion of popular sovereignty belonging to the people

1136
01:04:23,160 --> 01:04:26,120
Speaker 5: is very hard to dislodge unless you're going to straight

1137
01:04:26,160 --> 01:04:27,840
Speaker 5: up impose a monarchy. And even a lot of the

1138
01:04:27,880 --> 01:04:31,920
Speaker 5: monarchies now are like, you know, they follow the European

1139
01:04:31,960 --> 01:04:34,440
Speaker 5: thing of like claiming to like derive the authority from

1140
01:04:34,480 --> 01:04:35,080
Speaker 5: the people or something.

1141
01:04:35,400 --> 01:04:39,080
Speaker 6: But we also we also have people like like Walsh

1142
01:04:39,120 --> 01:04:46,120
Speaker 6: and Michael Knowles who are like Catholic monarchists. Yeah, a

1143
01:04:46,120 --> 01:04:47,760
Speaker 6: lot of prominence in American culture.

1144
01:04:48,400 --> 01:04:51,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's it's it's a like. I don't know. I

1145
01:04:51,680 --> 01:04:57,800
Speaker 4: wish them bad luck. Yes, that is, that's a little moderate.

1146
01:04:57,520 --> 01:05:03,680
Speaker 6: Thing I wish upon them. Back to Graber, quote for

1147
01:05:03,720 --> 01:05:06,440
Speaker 6: the radical left and the authoritarian right, the problem of

1148
01:05:06,480 --> 01:05:10,720
Speaker 6: constituent power is very much alive, but each takes dimetrically

1149
01:05:10,760 --> 01:05:15,080
Speaker 6: opposite approaches to the fundamental question of violence unquote. Now,

1150
01:05:15,080 --> 01:05:17,800
Speaker 6: I think this is something that has I'd be interested

1151
01:05:17,800 --> 01:05:19,400
Speaker 6: to see Graber revisit this idea.

1152
01:05:19,440 --> 01:05:19,600
Speaker 3: Now.

1153
01:05:19,680 --> 01:05:22,840
Speaker 6: Unfortunately that cannot be the case, because this question of

1154
01:05:22,880 --> 01:05:25,400
Speaker 6: violence has certainly evolved a lot in the ten years

1155
01:05:25,400 --> 01:05:28,360
Speaker 6: in which he wrote this, both in terms of how

1156
01:05:28,400 --> 01:05:30,600
Speaker 6: the alt right operates, but also in terms of how

1157
01:05:30,680 --> 01:05:33,840
Speaker 6: the quote unquote left views violence as a necessary political tool.

1158
01:05:34,280 --> 01:05:36,960
Speaker 6: But getting into his analysis of the twentieth century, I

1159
01:05:37,000 --> 01:05:38,160
Speaker 6: think it is still fairly accurate.

1160
01:05:38,240 --> 01:05:39,479
Speaker 4: Quote.

1161
01:05:39,640 --> 01:05:42,560
Speaker 6: The left, chastised by the disasters of the twentieth century,

1162
01:05:42,760 --> 01:05:46,280
Speaker 6: has largely moved away from its older celebration of revolutionary violence,

1163
01:05:46,440 --> 01:05:49,800
Speaker 6: preferring non violent forms of resistance. Those who act in

1164
01:05:49,840 --> 01:05:51,800
Speaker 6: the name of something higher than the law can do

1165
01:05:51,840 --> 01:05:54,919
Speaker 6: so precisely because they don't act like a rampaging mob.

1166
01:05:55,480 --> 01:05:57,200
Speaker 6: For the right, on the other hand, and this has

1167
01:05:57,240 --> 01:05:59,360
Speaker 6: been true since the rise of fascism in the twenties.

1168
01:06:00,000 --> 01:06:03,280
Speaker 6: The very idea that there is something special about revolutionary violence,

1169
01:06:03,480 --> 01:06:06,480
Speaker 6: anything that makes it different from mere criminal violence, is

1170
01:06:06,680 --> 01:06:10,920
Speaker 6: so much self righteous twaddle. Violence is violence, but that

1171
01:06:11,000 --> 01:06:15,240
Speaker 6: doesn't mean a rampaging mob can't be the people, because

1172
01:06:15,320 --> 01:06:18,560
Speaker 6: violence is the real source of law and political order.

1173
01:06:19,840 --> 01:06:22,240
Speaker 6: This is why, as Walter Benjamin noted, we cannot help

1174
01:06:22,240 --> 01:06:25,800
Speaker 6: but admire the great criminal, because, as so many movie

1175
01:06:25,800 --> 01:06:29,120
Speaker 6: posters have put it, he makes his own law. After all,

1176
01:06:29,200 --> 01:06:33,400
Speaker 6: any criminal organization does inevitably begin developing its own, often

1177
01:06:33,480 --> 01:06:36,720
Speaker 6: quite elaborate set of internal laws. They have to as

1178
01:06:36,760 --> 01:06:40,240
Speaker 6: a way of controlling what would otherwise be completely random violence.

1179
01:06:40,600 --> 01:06:43,560
Speaker 6: From the right wing perspective, that's all law, ever is.

1180
01:06:43,880 --> 01:06:46,000
Speaker 6: It is a means of controlling the very violence that

1181
01:06:46,040 --> 01:06:50,680
Speaker 6: it brings into being and through which it is ultimately enforced. Now,

1182
01:06:50,720 --> 01:06:53,000
Speaker 6: I think this is also true of even certain aspects

1183
01:06:53,000 --> 01:06:55,080
Speaker 6: of the left, where we have we don't call them laws,

1184
01:06:55,120 --> 01:06:57,720
Speaker 6: we might call them like community guidelines or something, but

1185
01:06:57,800 --> 01:07:01,400
Speaker 6: we often actually do this same process, especially in the

1186
01:07:01,440 --> 01:07:05,160
Speaker 6: anarchist kind of formations that try to replicate gang formations

1187
01:07:05,200 --> 01:07:10,640
Speaker 6: like purposefully, we get this same essence that is developed

1188
01:07:10,640 --> 01:07:13,680
Speaker 6: in order to people might you know, reject these to

1189
01:07:13,720 --> 01:07:16,560
Speaker 6: the word police, but at least, you know, make some

1190
01:07:16,680 --> 01:07:20,160
Speaker 6: kind of structure that deems which violence is acceptable and

1191
01:07:20,160 --> 01:07:23,280
Speaker 6: which violence isn't. But back to Graber quote. This makes

1192
01:07:23,320 --> 01:07:26,600
Speaker 6: it easier to understand the often surprising affinity between criminals,

1193
01:07:26,680 --> 01:07:30,520
Speaker 6: criminal gangs, right wing political movements, and the armed representatives

1194
01:07:30,520 --> 01:07:33,560
Speaker 6: of the state. Ultimately, they speak the same language, they

1195
01:07:33,560 --> 01:07:35,560
Speaker 6: create their own rules on the basis of force. As

1196
01:07:35,560 --> 01:07:38,560
Speaker 6: a result, they typically share the same broad political sensibilities.

1197
01:07:39,080 --> 01:07:42,120
Speaker 6: In Athens nowadays, there's an active collaboration between the crime

1198
01:07:42,120 --> 01:07:45,400
Speaker 6: bosses in poor immigrant neighborhoods, fascist gangs, and the police.

1199
01:07:45,720 --> 01:07:48,720
Speaker 6: In fact, in this case, it was clearly a political

1200
01:07:48,760 --> 01:07:52,040
Speaker 6: strategy face with the prospect of popular uprisings against a

1201
01:07:52,120 --> 01:07:55,960
Speaker 6: right wing government. The police first withdrew protection from neighborhoods

1202
01:07:55,960 --> 01:07:59,240
Speaker 6: near the immigrant gangs, then started giving tacit support to

1203
01:07:59,280 --> 01:08:02,120
Speaker 6: the fascists for the far right. Then it is in

1204
01:08:02,160 --> 01:08:05,840
Speaker 6: that space where different violent forces operating outside of the

1205
01:08:05,880 --> 01:08:09,320
Speaker 6: legal order interact that new forms of power and hence

1206
01:08:09,400 --> 01:08:12,400
Speaker 6: of order can emerge. What does this have to do

1207
01:08:12,440 --> 01:08:16,040
Speaker 6: with costume superheroes. Well, everything, because this is exactly the

1208
01:08:16,040 --> 01:08:20,839
Speaker 6: space that superheroes and supervillains also inhabit. An inherently fascist

1209
01:08:20,880 --> 01:08:25,080
Speaker 6: space inhabited only by gangsters would be dictators, police and thugs,

1210
01:08:25,479 --> 01:08:29,679
Speaker 6: with endlessly blurring lines between them. Sometimes the cops are legalistic,

1211
01:08:29,760 --> 01:08:33,640
Speaker 6: sometimes they're corrupt. Sometimes the police themselves slip into vigilanteism.

1212
01:08:34,120 --> 01:08:36,760
Speaker 6: Sometimes they pursue the superheroes, sometimes they look the other way.

1213
01:08:36,800 --> 01:08:40,040
Speaker 6: Sometimes they help. Villains and heroes occasionally team up. The

1214
01:08:40,080 --> 01:08:43,559
Speaker 6: lines of force are always shifting. If anything new where

1215
01:08:43,560 --> 01:08:46,559
Speaker 6: to emerge, it could only be through such shifting forces.

1216
01:08:46,760 --> 01:08:49,840
Speaker 6: There's nothing else, since in the DC and Marvel universes,

1217
01:08:50,040 --> 01:08:55,000
Speaker 6: neither God nor the people really exist. Now, I think

1218
01:08:55,080 --> 01:08:57,559
Speaker 6: this is greater hitting on something that really actually does

1219
01:08:57,640 --> 01:09:00,720
Speaker 6: hit at the core of this whole genre is that

1220
01:09:01,240 --> 01:09:04,040
Speaker 6: this is the genre which is really only inhabited by

1221
01:09:04,200 --> 01:09:06,639
Speaker 6: the uber manch as this like governing body. Right, There's

1222
01:09:06,960 --> 01:09:09,920
Speaker 6: there really isn't the god in any kind of meaningful way.

1223
01:09:10,040 --> 01:09:12,320
Speaker 6: There isn't the people in any kind of meaningful way.

1224
01:09:12,479 --> 01:09:15,400
Speaker 6: There is just the super individual. The uber manch himself

1225
01:09:15,680 --> 01:09:18,799
Speaker 6: is what inspired Joe Schuster and Jerry Siegel to create Superman.

1226
01:09:18,920 --> 01:09:19,080
Speaker 4: Like that.

1227
01:09:19,160 --> 01:09:22,400
Speaker 6: This is this is the origin of this entire genre.

1228
01:09:22,800 --> 01:09:24,240
Speaker 5: By the way, I want to I want to mention

1229
01:09:24,320 --> 01:09:26,320
Speaker 5: some some comic book nerds are gonna get very angry

1230
01:09:26,320 --> 01:09:28,000
Speaker 5: here and be like, Wow, there's some one above all.

1231
01:09:28,040 --> 01:09:31,599
Speaker 5: It's like okay, like God, like there there are there

1232
01:09:31,760 --> 01:09:34,360
Speaker 5: is technically God in this right, but like God is

1233
01:09:34,360 --> 01:09:35,840
Speaker 5: the thing that you can beat the crap out of,

1234
01:09:36,240 --> 01:09:38,799
Speaker 5: Like it's not God in the sense of like God.

1235
01:09:38,680 --> 01:09:40,840
Speaker 4: Ordained authority is blah blah blah blah. Like no, it's not.

1236
01:09:40,920 --> 01:09:42,200
Speaker 5: It's not the same thing this is. That's not what

1237
01:09:42,200 --> 01:09:44,760
Speaker 5: we were talking about. Please don't be pedanic in the

1238
01:09:44,760 --> 01:09:45,320
Speaker 5: comic cult.

1239
01:09:45,680 --> 01:09:50,080
Speaker 6: And I'm talking like as like a literary tradition. God

1240
01:09:50,120 --> 01:09:54,200
Speaker 6: does not operate as a significant role in these pieces

1241
01:09:54,200 --> 01:09:55,640
Speaker 6: of art like that that like that, like if you're

1242
01:09:55,640 --> 01:09:58,200
Speaker 6: gonna be looking at the genre as art for twelve

1243
01:09:58,240 --> 01:10:02,160
Speaker 6: year old boys, God does not operate specific crucial role

1244
01:10:02,439 --> 01:10:04,320
Speaker 6: in in this world's ontology.

1245
01:10:04,600 --> 01:10:06,360
Speaker 5: And it's funny too, because one of the things that

1246
01:10:06,360 --> 01:10:09,400
Speaker 5: happens after this is there's there's a thing called there's

1247
01:10:09,400 --> 01:10:12,040
Speaker 5: a thing called Occupy Avengers, and they make this attempt

1248
01:10:12,080 --> 01:10:13,000
Speaker 5: to bring the people.

1249
01:10:13,439 --> 01:10:17,519
Speaker 4: It's it's a shit show. It is awful it's so bad,

1250
01:10:17,920 --> 01:10:20,479
Speaker 4: Like it's well, and it's interesting to you because like

1251
01:10:20,520 --> 01:10:22,880
Speaker 4: anytime they try to so that, that was an attempt

1252
01:10:22,920 --> 01:10:25,000
Speaker 4: to bring in like sort of the people as like

1253
01:10:25,000 --> 01:10:28,160
Speaker 4: a left wing constitutive body, and that was a disaster.

1254
01:10:28,880 --> 01:10:30,880
Speaker 5: They tried to do it, Like they've tried to do

1255
01:10:30,920 --> 01:10:34,439
Speaker 5: it again. But the people exist as this sort of

1256
01:10:34,520 --> 01:10:39,320
Speaker 5: like very right wing like forced it is like they

1257
01:10:39,680 --> 01:10:41,840
Speaker 5: as like this bob that's constantly on the edge of

1258
01:10:41,840 --> 01:10:44,519
Speaker 5: sort of like destroying society whatever. And that's been like

1259
01:10:44,520 --> 01:10:46,400
Speaker 5: the most attempts to do it.

1260
01:10:47,360 --> 01:10:50,280
Speaker 6: No, there're certainly attempts to bring in like the American

1261
01:10:50,320 --> 01:10:53,000
Speaker 6: political system into various aspects of comics, whether that's like

1262
01:10:53,080 --> 01:10:56,559
Speaker 6: Lex Luthor being president, whether it's stuff like the.

1263
01:10:58,360 --> 01:10:59,920
Speaker 4: I know this stuff and I think it's called the.

1264
01:11:00,040 --> 01:11:02,800
Speaker 6: Mortal Hulk has has has a lot of politics.

1265
01:11:03,080 --> 01:11:05,040
Speaker 4: But that one's Wilde's.

1266
01:11:05,600 --> 01:11:08,080
Speaker 6: I do think Raber's kind of point here is still

1267
01:11:08,439 --> 01:11:09,920
Speaker 6: still still accurate.

1268
01:11:09,600 --> 01:11:11,080
Speaker 4: And rings true.

1269
01:11:11,200 --> 01:11:13,640
Speaker 6: I have one other paragraph from Graper then we'll kind

1270
01:11:13,680 --> 01:11:16,640
Speaker 6: of get into a little bit more more discussion.

1271
01:11:17,240 --> 01:11:17,559
Speaker 4: Quote.

1272
01:11:17,640 --> 01:11:20,280
Speaker 6: Insofar as there is a potential for constituent power, then

1273
01:11:20,640 --> 01:11:23,760
Speaker 6: it can only come from purveyors of violence. The super

1274
01:11:23,800 --> 01:11:26,839
Speaker 6: villains and evil masterminds, when they are not merely indulging

1275
01:11:26,840 --> 01:11:30,240
Speaker 6: in random acts of terror, are always scheming of imposing

1276
01:11:30,240 --> 01:11:33,000
Speaker 6: a new world order of some kind or another. Surely,

1277
01:11:33,040 --> 01:11:36,040
Speaker 6: if Red Skull King the Conqueror or Doctor Doom did

1278
01:11:36,040 --> 01:11:38,479
Speaker 6: ever succeed in taking over the planet, there'd be lots

1279
01:11:38,479 --> 01:11:40,080
Speaker 6: of new laws created very quickly.

1280
01:11:40,360 --> 01:11:41,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, and there was.

1281
01:11:41,320 --> 01:11:43,760
Speaker 5: Actually after he wrote this, there was an arc where

1282
01:11:43,840 --> 01:11:46,519
Speaker 5: Doctor dun successfully conquered the entire universe, and he did

1283
01:11:46,600 --> 01:11:50,760
Speaker 5: in fact do exactly that, which also one another w

1284
01:11:51,000 --> 01:11:55,599
Speaker 5: for common David Graber w.

1285
01:11:53,960 --> 01:11:56,680
Speaker 6: Which also does not last very long, because if if

1286
01:11:56,720 --> 01:11:58,360
Speaker 6: that happened for a while, it would make the story

1287
01:11:58,400 --> 01:12:02,560
Speaker 6: incredibly boring. Yeah, things doing things always return to the

1288
01:12:02,600 --> 01:12:06,639
Speaker 6: status quo. Which is also another crucial aspect of this genre,

1289
01:12:06,800 --> 01:12:08,760
Speaker 6: that things have to return to the status quo, which

1290
01:12:08,800 --> 01:12:11,080
Speaker 6: is something I will get to very shortly. Back to

1291
01:12:11,120 --> 01:12:14,840
Speaker 6: Grabor quote, although their creator would doubtless not himself feel

1292
01:12:14,840 --> 01:12:18,439
Speaker 6: bounded by them, superheroes resist this logic. They do not

1293
01:12:18,520 --> 01:12:21,680
Speaker 6: wish to conquer the world. Now, this is where I'm

1294
01:12:21,680 --> 01:12:24,680
Speaker 6: going to actually disagree slightly with Graber. He writes that

1295
01:12:24,720 --> 01:12:29,120
Speaker 6: superheroes quote remain parasitical off the villains in the same

1296
01:12:29,160 --> 01:12:33,360
Speaker 6: way that police remain parasitical off criminals. Without them, they'd

1297
01:12:33,400 --> 01:12:37,200
Speaker 6: have no reason to exist. Now, I'd argue that the

1298
01:12:37,200 --> 01:12:40,280
Speaker 6: police actually create the spectral category of criminals to justify

1299
01:12:40,280 --> 01:12:43,000
Speaker 6: their own existence. Yeah, criminals didn't create the police. It's

1300
01:12:43,040 --> 01:12:46,920
Speaker 6: the other way around, right, you can look at you

1301
01:12:46,960 --> 01:12:48,760
Speaker 6: can look at like the way even the past few years,

1302
01:12:48,840 --> 01:12:51,519
Speaker 6: police have been lying about inflated crime rates to justify

1303
01:12:51,560 --> 01:12:55,559
Speaker 6: their own increased funding. And now, obviously people always broke

1304
01:12:55,800 --> 01:12:58,640
Speaker 6: social norms, but if you're looking at the actual, like

1305
01:12:59,040 --> 01:13:02,479
Speaker 6: the actual like political class of criminal and the political

1306
01:13:02,520 --> 01:13:06,000
Speaker 6: class of police, this is like it's like everyone has

1307
01:13:06,000 --> 01:13:08,720
Speaker 6: done a crime, right, Like police commit more crimes than

1308
01:13:08,760 --> 01:13:12,160
Speaker 6: the average person, but they do not often get called

1309
01:13:12,200 --> 01:13:14,920
Speaker 6: a criminal. I'm talking about like a very political class

1310
01:13:15,080 --> 01:13:17,640
Speaker 6: that we call criminal, and this is something that the

1311
01:13:17,680 --> 01:13:23,439
Speaker 6: police create. And curiously, in the same way, most superheroes

1312
01:13:23,560 --> 01:13:27,040
Speaker 6: also pre date their respective supervillains, as it is the

1313
01:13:27,040 --> 01:13:30,880
Speaker 6: presence of the superhero that often births the adversarial supervillain.

1314
01:13:31,000 --> 01:13:35,160
Speaker 6: We see this across tons of superhero medias where they

1315
01:13:35,240 --> 01:13:39,400
Speaker 6: use example of how the superhero predated the arrival of

1316
01:13:39,400 --> 01:13:42,400
Speaker 6: these theatrical villains, and this is actually the superhero's fault, right.

1317
01:13:42,560 --> 01:13:44,840
Speaker 6: Is this happens in Batman, this happens in Spider Man.

1318
01:13:45,760 --> 01:13:48,559
Speaker 6: This is very, very common. We even see this in

1319
01:13:48,600 --> 01:13:51,680
Speaker 6: something like The Boys or The Watchmen, both of which

1320
01:13:51,720 --> 01:13:55,439
Speaker 6: target superheroes as a reactionary right wing tendency, which are

1321
01:13:55,479 --> 01:13:58,760
Speaker 6: aligned with the police and military. We literally have Homelander

1322
01:13:58,920 --> 01:14:03,519
Speaker 6: creating supervillain to justify his own existence, or super terrorists

1323
01:14:03,560 --> 01:14:07,240
Speaker 6: in The Watchman, the actual team predates the arrival of

1324
01:14:07,280 --> 01:14:10,679
Speaker 6: many super villains. So this, this is this is one

1325
01:14:10,880 --> 01:14:14,799
Speaker 6: one small nitpick I might I might say with this article,

1326
01:14:15,560 --> 01:14:18,240
Speaker 6: at least in terms of the like the the causality

1327
01:14:18,240 --> 01:14:21,880
Speaker 6: loop between superheroes and villains and criminals and police. Do

1328
01:14:21,920 --> 01:14:25,080
Speaker 6: you know what also pre dates all all of us,

1329
01:14:25,760 --> 01:14:27,160
Speaker 6: every every single person listening.

1330
01:14:27,920 --> 01:14:29,680
Speaker 4: We're gonna have like someone who's one hundred and.

1331
01:14:30,080 --> 01:14:34,160
Speaker 6: The advertising industrial complex predates every single one of you fuckers.

1332
01:14:35,000 --> 01:14:40,479
Speaker 6: The surrealists burst this hell hole of advertising, which tricks

1333
01:14:40,520 --> 01:14:43,360
Speaker 6: your mind via predictive programming, the witch to buy this

1334
01:14:43,439 --> 01:14:47,120
Speaker 6: fucking food box. Okay, we are we are back. We

1335
01:14:47,160 --> 01:14:50,559
Speaker 6: have returned to the status quo of our podcast, speaking

1336
01:14:50,720 --> 01:14:54,080
Speaker 6: speaking of which we're going to talk about returning to

1337
01:14:54,080 --> 01:14:59,120
Speaker 6: the status quo. So what what superheroes and the police,

1338
01:14:59,200 --> 01:15:02,439
Speaker 6: which are very ontologically similar roles in a lot of cases,

1339
01:15:02,840 --> 01:15:06,040
Speaker 6: what their end project is is that they seek to

1340
01:15:06,200 --> 01:15:10,519
Speaker 6: maintain what is and then seek out and destroy anything

1341
01:15:10,760 --> 01:15:14,960
Speaker 6: that threatens to alter our civilizational fabric. They they fundamentally

1342
01:15:15,360 --> 01:15:18,280
Speaker 6: are defenders of the status quo. That is, that is

1343
01:15:18,320 --> 01:15:21,400
Speaker 6: the that is the role of the superhero across almost

1344
01:15:21,439 --> 01:15:25,000
Speaker 6: all media. This is why if you had the powers

1345
01:15:25,000 --> 01:15:27,639
Speaker 6: of Superman, why are you just saving cats from trees

1346
01:15:27,680 --> 01:15:31,080
Speaker 6: and instead not fundamentally reshaping the world in something that

1347
01:15:31,160 --> 01:15:33,160
Speaker 6: is better. Now, this is a question that gets tackled

1348
01:15:33,439 --> 01:15:35,680
Speaker 6: by people like Grant Morrison and Alan Moore is to

1349
01:15:35,960 --> 01:15:38,559
Speaker 6: they often give reasons for why someone shouldn't do that,

1350
01:15:38,880 --> 01:15:41,439
Speaker 6: But still, this is this is a fundamental aspect of

1351
01:15:41,479 --> 01:15:44,120
Speaker 6: this genre is that these guys never really have any

1352
01:15:44,360 --> 01:15:47,599
Speaker 6: generative political project. They they are purely reactionary, and they

1353
01:15:47,600 --> 01:15:51,519
Speaker 6: purely are are are made to to hold up the

1354
01:15:51,560 --> 01:15:54,880
Speaker 6: status quo and always return to this single point from

1355
01:15:54,920 --> 01:15:59,680
Speaker 6: which they emerged, Back to grayber quote, they remain defenders

1356
01:15:59,720 --> 01:16:02,200
Speaker 6: of a legal and political system which itself seems to

1357
01:16:02,200 --> 01:16:05,759
Speaker 6: have come out of nowhere, and which, however faulty or degraded,

1358
01:16:06,040 --> 01:16:10,439
Speaker 6: must be defended because the only alternative is so much worse.

1359
01:16:11,000 --> 01:16:14,880
Speaker 6: They aren't fascists, They're just ordinary, decent, super powerful people

1360
01:16:14,960 --> 01:16:17,639
Speaker 6: who inhabit a world in which fascism is the only

1361
01:16:17,680 --> 01:16:21,519
Speaker 6: political possibility. Why might we ask what a form of

1362
01:16:21,640 --> 01:16:25,640
Speaker 6: entertainment premised on such a peculiar notion of politics emerge

1363
01:16:25,760 --> 01:16:29,200
Speaker 6: in the early to mid twentieth century America at just

1364
01:16:29,280 --> 01:16:31,760
Speaker 6: around the time that actual fascism was on the rise

1365
01:16:31,800 --> 01:16:35,360
Speaker 6: in Europe? Was it some kind of fantasy American equivalent.

1366
01:16:35,920 --> 01:16:39,160
Speaker 6: Not exactly. It's more that both fascism and superheroes were

1367
01:16:39,160 --> 01:16:43,400
Speaker 6: products of a similar historical predicament. What is the foundation

1368
01:16:43,600 --> 01:16:47,240
Speaker 6: of social order when one has exercised the very idea

1369
01:16:47,320 --> 01:16:51,680
Speaker 6: of revolution, and above all, what happens to the political imagination?

1370
01:16:53,040 --> 01:16:55,960
Speaker 6: So at this point Graver starts talking about how basically

1371
01:16:56,640 --> 01:16:59,479
Speaker 6: all power goes to the individual, but the individual who

1372
01:16:59,520 --> 01:17:02,840
Speaker 6: is embedded within a system. He discusses how the core

1373
01:17:02,880 --> 01:17:05,840
Speaker 6: audience for superhero comics are adolescent or pre adolescent to

1374
01:17:05,840 --> 01:17:09,160
Speaker 6: white boys. At least that was in the nineteen twenties

1375
01:17:09,280 --> 01:17:12,599
Speaker 6: or thirties, and forties, and roughly is still the case.

1376
01:17:13,120 --> 01:17:15,800
Speaker 6: It's that these comic books and now Marvel films, although

1377
01:17:15,840 --> 01:17:20,280
Speaker 6: unfortunately Marvel films have a much broader audience, but they

1378
01:17:20,320 --> 01:17:22,360
Speaker 6: are targeted to people who are at a point in

1379
01:17:22,439 --> 01:17:24,400
Speaker 6: their lives where they're like where they're likely to be

1380
01:17:24,720 --> 01:17:28,680
Speaker 6: both like the most imaginative and a little bit rebellious. Right,

1381
01:17:28,720 --> 01:17:30,759
Speaker 6: this is like, this is the twelve year old white

1382
01:17:31,080 --> 01:17:35,200
Speaker 6: boy is the thing that that this is targeting. So

1383
01:17:35,280 --> 01:17:37,880
Speaker 6: they're both very imaginative, they're a little bit rebellious, but

1384
01:17:37,920 --> 01:17:41,280
Speaker 6: they're also being groomed to take on positions of power

1385
01:17:41,280 --> 01:17:44,160
Speaker 6: and authority in the world. Right, They're about to transition

1386
01:17:44,560 --> 01:17:48,320
Speaker 6: to being fathers, share of small business owners, middle management.

1387
01:17:48,400 --> 01:17:48,559
Speaker 3: Right.

1388
01:17:48,960 --> 01:17:53,360
Speaker 6: So this is what this genre is targeted towards. So

1389
01:17:53,439 --> 01:17:55,040
Speaker 6: what are they supposed to learn from these kind of

1390
01:17:55,160 --> 01:17:59,679
Speaker 6: endlessly repeating stories that are all very much the same story.

1391
01:18:00,160 --> 01:18:03,600
Speaker 6: One aspect is that imagination and rebellion will inevitably just

1392
01:18:03,720 --> 01:18:08,280
Speaker 6: lead to violence, right, And then second is like imagination

1393
01:18:08,320 --> 01:18:10,479
Speaker 6: and rebellion violence can actually be a lot of fun,

1394
01:18:11,240 --> 01:18:15,240
Speaker 6: but ultimately violence must be directed back against any overflow

1395
01:18:15,280 --> 01:18:18,479
Speaker 6: of imagination and rebellion, or else everything will kind of

1396
01:18:18,520 --> 01:18:21,600
Speaker 6: go into chaos. These things have to be contained. So

1397
01:18:21,680 --> 01:18:24,880
Speaker 6: this is why superheroes are only allowed. I'm gonna I'm

1398
01:18:24,880 --> 01:18:27,559
Speaker 6: gonna quote from grayper again quote their imagination can only

1399
01:18:27,600 --> 01:18:30,040
Speaker 6: be extended to the design of their clothes, their cars,

1400
01:18:30,080 --> 01:18:34,040
Speaker 6: maybe their homes, and their very successories unquote. Basically all

1401
01:18:34,080 --> 01:18:37,760
Speaker 6: of their imagination for the superhero is limited to commodities. Right,

1402
01:18:37,840 --> 01:18:41,000
Speaker 6: This is this is the fundamental aspect where that's the

1403
01:18:41,040 --> 01:18:46,120
Speaker 6: only acceptable outlet for your imagination. It's it's it's just

1404
01:18:46,360 --> 01:18:48,800
Speaker 6: with these it's just with commodity fetishism like that. That's

1405
01:18:48,840 --> 01:18:52,720
Speaker 6: that's the only possible way back to Graper quote. It's

1406
01:18:52,720 --> 01:18:54,920
Speaker 6: in this sense that the logic of the superhero plot

1407
01:18:54,960 --> 01:18:58,560
Speaker 6: is profoundly, deeply conservative. Ultimately, the division between left and

1408
01:18:58,640 --> 01:19:02,160
Speaker 6: right sensibilities turns on one's attitude towards the imagination. For

1409
01:19:02,240 --> 01:19:05,759
Speaker 6: the left, imagination, creativity and by extension, production, the power

1410
01:19:05,800 --> 01:19:08,679
Speaker 6: to bring new things and new social arrangements into being

1411
01:19:08,960 --> 01:19:11,759
Speaker 6: is always celebrated. It's the source of all real value

1412
01:19:11,760 --> 01:19:14,679
Speaker 6: in the world. For the right, it's dangerous and ultimately evil.

1413
01:19:15,040 --> 01:19:18,120
Speaker 6: The urge to create is also a destructive urge. But

1414
01:19:18,240 --> 01:19:22,120
Speaker 6: this is also what separates conservatives from fascists. Both agree

1415
01:19:22,120 --> 01:19:24,879
Speaker 6: that the imagination unleashed can only lead to violence and destruction.

1416
01:19:25,280 --> 01:19:29,040
Speaker 6: Conservatives wish to defend us against this possibility. Fascists wish

1417
01:19:29,120 --> 01:19:31,719
Speaker 6: to unleash it anyway they aspire to be, as Hitler

1418
01:19:31,720 --> 01:19:36,240
Speaker 6: imagine himself, great artists painting with the minds, bloods, and

1419
01:19:36,400 --> 01:19:39,680
Speaker 6: sinews of humanity. I think this is a really good

1420
01:19:39,680 --> 01:19:43,320
Speaker 6: distinction between conservatives and fascists in terms of how they

1421
01:19:43,439 --> 01:19:46,880
Speaker 6: view creative violence. And to get back to superheroes, I

1422
01:19:46,880 --> 01:19:50,599
Speaker 6: think this medium, as Graver points out, has this kind

1423
01:19:50,640 --> 01:19:55,080
Speaker 6: of built in essence of a guilty pleasure. It revels

1424
01:19:55,120 --> 01:19:57,920
Speaker 6: in the absurdity of both the costumed heroes and villains,

1425
01:19:58,439 --> 01:20:01,440
Speaker 6: all while still targeting and imagine which is too expansive

1426
01:20:01,479 --> 01:20:05,080
Speaker 6: to outside the norm as being the ultimate crime. This

1427
01:20:05,120 --> 01:20:08,800
Speaker 6: guilty pleasure aspect even applies to the great superhero satires

1428
01:20:08,840 --> 01:20:12,040
Speaker 6: like The Watchmen and the Boys, which we applaud for

1429
01:20:12,160 --> 01:20:15,559
Speaker 6: poking and prodding at the conservative superhero all while still

1430
01:20:15,560 --> 01:20:19,160
Speaker 6: reveling and watching the outlandish antics on screen or on

1431
01:20:19,240 --> 01:20:23,879
Speaker 6: the page. Now, Graver even applies this guilty pleasure aspect

1432
01:20:24,120 --> 01:20:28,200
Speaker 6: into explaining the kind of the conservative backlash to superheroes

1433
01:20:28,200 --> 01:20:31,679
Speaker 6: in the forties and fifties, particularly with the book Seduction

1434
01:20:31,760 --> 01:20:34,320
Speaker 6: of the Innocent, which kind of viewed superheroes as this

1435
01:20:34,439 --> 01:20:39,160
Speaker 6: weirdly fetishistic, kind of naughty impulse, which resulted in superheroes

1436
01:20:39,160 --> 01:20:44,080
Speaker 6: getting very sanitized and much more much more silly, much

1437
01:20:44,080 --> 01:20:48,080
Speaker 6: more campy, which which resulted in the fantastic nineteen sixty

1438
01:20:48,120 --> 01:20:51,320
Speaker 6: six Batman Show. But still it kind of it kind

1439
01:20:51,320 --> 01:20:53,840
Speaker 6: of points at this this this guilty pleasure aspect. There's

1440
01:20:53,880 --> 01:20:58,240
Speaker 6: there's something inherently kind of naughty about about viewing this material.

1441
01:20:58,960 --> 01:21:00,920
Speaker 6: All right, we are we are nearing the end of

1442
01:21:01,000 --> 01:21:05,400
Speaker 6: Graber's analysis here. Quote if the message was that rebellious

1443
01:21:05,400 --> 01:21:07,880
Speaker 6: imagination was okay as long as it was kept out

1444
01:21:07,920 --> 01:21:11,840
Speaker 6: of politics and simply confined to consumer choices like clothes, cars,

1445
01:21:11,840 --> 01:21:15,240
Speaker 6: and accessories, this had become the message that even executive

1446
01:21:15,280 --> 01:21:18,080
Speaker 6: Hollywood producers could easily get behind, which results in stuff

1447
01:21:18,120 --> 01:21:20,760
Speaker 6: like the nineteen sixty six Batman Show. And now leading

1448
01:21:20,840 --> 01:21:25,160
Speaker 6: us back into Christopher Nolan, we get this really good,

1449
01:21:25,240 --> 01:21:28,719
Speaker 6: really good paragraph from grab quote if the classic comic

1450
01:21:28,760 --> 01:21:31,360
Speaker 6: book is intensively political about Madaman trying to take over

1451
01:21:31,400 --> 01:21:35,400
Speaker 6: the world, but really psychological and personal about overcoming the

1452
01:21:35,520 --> 01:21:40,479
Speaker 6: dangers of rebellious adolescents, but then ultimately political. After all,

1453
01:21:41,439 --> 01:21:44,960
Speaker 6: then the new superhero movies are precisely the reverse. They

1454
01:21:44,960 --> 01:21:50,040
Speaker 6: are sensibly psychological and personal, but really political, but ultimately

1455
01:21:50,320 --> 01:21:54,400
Speaker 6: they go back to being psychological and personal. So this

1456
01:21:54,439 --> 01:21:56,680
Speaker 6: is me just ripping. Now let's take Batman begins right.

1457
01:21:57,360 --> 01:21:59,960
Speaker 6: We have Racial Gul who operates in this psychological role

1458
01:22:00,120 --> 01:22:04,840
Speaker 6: of a second father for Bruce right after Bruce's training

1459
01:22:04,840 --> 01:22:08,040
Speaker 6: initiation to the League of Shadows. Only then does Race

1460
01:22:08,160 --> 01:22:10,880
Speaker 6: reveal his political goals to destroy Gotham and rid the

1461
01:22:10,880 --> 01:22:15,240
Speaker 6: world of corruption. So this is like the psychological is

1462
01:22:15,280 --> 01:22:18,519
Speaker 6: the first bit, then it's actually political, and then by

1463
01:22:18,560 --> 01:22:20,639
Speaker 6: the end it actually it goes all the way back

1464
01:22:20,680 --> 01:22:24,800
Speaker 6: into being truly psychological. Now I'm gonna I'm gonna read

1465
01:22:24,840 --> 01:22:28,880
Speaker 6: one paragraph from Graver, which is only because it has

1466
01:22:28,920 --> 01:22:36,200
Speaker 6: a very funny oh two word combination. In the ritual Kobis,

1467
01:22:36,240 --> 01:22:38,960
Speaker 6: we learned that rayshal Ghoul, a character introduced telling Lee

1468
01:22:39,000 --> 01:22:42,400
Speaker 6: In in nineteen seventy one, is in fact a zerzen

1469
01:22:42,560 --> 01:22:47,160
Speaker 6: Esque primitivist and terrorist determined to restore the balance of

1470
01:22:47,240 --> 01:22:50,200
Speaker 6: nature by reducing the earth's human population by roughly ninety

1471
01:22:50,280 --> 01:22:52,479
Speaker 6: nine percent. None of the villains in any of the

1472
01:22:52,520 --> 01:22:55,519
Speaker 6: three movies want to rule the world. They don't wish

1473
01:22:55,560 --> 01:22:58,360
Speaker 6: to have power over others or to create new rules

1474
01:22:58,400 --> 01:23:01,760
Speaker 6: of any sort, unquote. And I just really like the

1475
01:23:01,840 --> 01:23:07,559
Speaker 6: term deservesi esque to describe the seventies racial ghoul, which

1476
01:23:07,600 --> 01:23:12,599
Speaker 6: is a deeply, a deeply brain poisoned way to.

1477
01:23:12,600 --> 01:23:14,000
Speaker 4: Describe a comic book.

1478
01:23:15,439 --> 01:23:21,799
Speaker 6: Likeliar. John Zergen is an eco anarchist writer who certain

1479
01:23:22,320 --> 01:23:25,240
Speaker 6: sects of kind of social anarchist theorists liked to make

1480
01:23:25,280 --> 01:23:25,680
Speaker 6: fun of.

1481
01:23:27,160 --> 01:23:27,320
Speaker 1: Think.

1482
01:23:27,400 --> 01:23:30,960
Speaker 4: I think Great Graver's most devastating thing about the Primitivest

1483
01:23:31,080 --> 01:23:33,639
Speaker 4: was calling them all Marxists, because they're the only people

1484
01:23:33,640 --> 01:23:35,879
Speaker 4: on earth who say it's a program, not a critique.

1485
01:23:37,600 --> 01:23:38,599
Speaker 4: It's very funny.

1486
01:23:38,760 --> 01:23:39,960
Speaker 5: I think like one of the things that's kind of

1487
01:23:40,000 --> 01:23:42,639
Speaker 5: going on here is like everyone who's writing about superhero

1488
01:23:42,760 --> 01:23:44,960
Speaker 5: movies is also trying to settle their own grudges a

1489
01:23:44,960 --> 01:23:45,360
Speaker 5: little bit.

1490
01:23:45,800 --> 01:23:49,519
Speaker 4: And oh absolutely grudges in this is like one of

1491
01:23:49,520 --> 01:23:52,880
Speaker 4: Graverer's grudges that he was like like he was tear gassed,

1492
01:23:53,320 --> 01:23:55,840
Speaker 4: like very very close to a lot of where these

1493
01:23:55,880 --> 01:23:58,920
Speaker 4: things were shot, like a month before, and his second

1494
01:23:59,000 --> 01:24:00,719
Speaker 4: grudge is that he had to spend the whole fucking

1495
01:24:00,800 --> 01:24:04,040
Speaker 4: nineties arguing with a bunch of primitivists. He's very annoying

1496
01:24:04,120 --> 01:24:10,400
Speaker 4: it because yeah, so that those are his grudges going

1497
01:24:10,439 --> 01:24:11,960
Speaker 4: into And.

1498
01:24:12,360 --> 01:24:15,280
Speaker 6: I do believe his his kind of framing of the

1499
01:24:15,360 --> 01:24:19,240
Speaker 6: Nolan supervillains of not really having any desire to rule

1500
01:24:19,280 --> 01:24:22,760
Speaker 6: the world as ringing true. They they really only want

1501
01:24:22,760 --> 01:24:25,280
Speaker 6: to like wipe the slate clean. I think Graber correctly

1502
01:24:25,320 --> 01:24:29,360
Speaker 6: identifies Nolan's supervillains as being primarily some form of anarchist,

1503
01:24:29,880 --> 01:24:33,599
Speaker 6: just a very peculiar type that really only exists in

1504
01:24:33,680 --> 01:24:38,320
Speaker 6: Nolan's imagination. Graber describes them as, quote, they are the

1505
01:24:38,360 --> 01:24:41,160
Speaker 6: anarchists who believe that human nature is fundamentally evil and

1506
01:24:41,240 --> 01:24:43,920
Speaker 6: corrupt unquote. I think this has taken to its most

1507
01:24:43,960 --> 01:24:47,160
Speaker 6: obvious extent in The Dark Knight, with the Joker, who

1508
01:24:47,200 --> 01:24:52,240
Speaker 6: openly claims affiliation with anarchy and fetishizes destruction. His sick

1509
01:24:52,320 --> 01:24:56,640
Speaker 6: and twisted imagination is the real villain, even with the

1510
01:24:56,680 --> 01:25:01,840
Speaker 6: backdrop of the film's kind of deceptive war on terror frame. Now,

1511
01:25:01,880 --> 01:25:03,599
Speaker 6: between the production of The Dark Knight and The Dark

1512
01:25:03,640 --> 01:25:04,480
Speaker 6: Knight rises.

1513
01:25:04,439 --> 01:25:05,759
Speaker 4: The funniest thing happened.

1514
01:25:06,320 --> 01:25:08,479
Speaker 6: The economy completely collapsed in two thousand and eight, and

1515
01:25:08,520 --> 01:25:10,880
Speaker 6: it wasn't due to an eco terrorist cult or a

1516
01:25:10,880 --> 01:25:14,519
Speaker 6: clown set on a total negation. Instead, it was bankers

1517
01:25:14,520 --> 01:25:17,120
Speaker 6: and finance managers in Wall Street Bros. Who became the

1518
01:25:17,200 --> 01:25:20,360
Speaker 6: obvious villains in their quest to maintain the lie of

1519
01:25:20,479 --> 01:25:23,400
Speaker 6: endless growth. Millions of people lost their homes and source

1520
01:25:23,479 --> 01:25:27,080
Speaker 6: of income. So in response, there was a whole bunch

1521
01:25:27,120 --> 01:25:29,599
Speaker 6: of popular uprisings that took place all around the world.

1522
01:25:30,040 --> 01:25:33,080
Speaker 6: Graver lists regimes being toppled in the Middle East and

1523
01:25:33,120 --> 01:25:37,800
Speaker 6: people occupying squares everywhere from Cleveland to Karachi trying to

1524
01:25:37,840 --> 01:25:41,439
Speaker 6: create new forms of democracy. So there's this resurgence of

1525
01:25:41,479 --> 01:25:46,400
Speaker 6: constituent power, right, and this imagination driven kind of radical

1526
01:25:46,680 --> 01:25:49,320
Speaker 6: and largely non violent form of resistance, at least here

1527
01:25:49,360 --> 01:25:52,000
Speaker 6: in the States. And this is the sort of political

1528
01:25:52,040 --> 01:25:56,920
Speaker 6: situation which superhero universes can never really fully tackle because

1529
01:25:57,160 --> 01:26:01,280
Speaker 6: it can't exist within their own weird ptology. To quote

1530
01:26:01,280 --> 01:26:03,920
Speaker 6: Graver or quote in Nolan's world, something like occupy could

1531
01:26:03,960 --> 01:26:05,960
Speaker 6: only have been the product of some tiny group of

1532
01:26:06,080 --> 01:26:09,760
Speaker 6: ingenious manipulators who are really pursuing some secret agenda. Why

1533
01:26:09,760 --> 01:26:11,400
Speaker 6: does Bain wish to lead the people in a social

1534
01:26:11,439 --> 01:26:13,120
Speaker 6: revolution if he's just gonna nukee them all in a

1535
01:26:13,120 --> 01:26:16,559
Speaker 6: few weeks anyway, it's anyone's guess. He claims that before

1536
01:26:16,560 --> 01:26:18,920
Speaker 6: you destroy someone first, he must give them hope. So

1537
01:26:19,120 --> 01:26:21,280
Speaker 6: is the message that utopian dreams can only lead to

1538
01:26:21,320 --> 01:26:26,160
Speaker 6: nihilistic violence. Presumably it's something like that, but it's singularly unconvincing,

1539
01:26:26,200 --> 01:26:28,000
Speaker 6: since the plan to kill everyone came first and the

1540
01:26:28,040 --> 01:26:31,519
Speaker 6: revolution was a decorative afterthought. In fact, what happens to

1541
01:26:31,520 --> 01:26:34,439
Speaker 6: the city can only possibly make sense as a material

1542
01:26:34,439 --> 01:26:37,880
Speaker 6: echo of what's been most important, what's happening in Bruce

1543
01:26:37,920 --> 01:26:39,160
Speaker 6: Wayne's tortured brain.

1544
01:26:42,000 --> 01:26:44,360
Speaker 4: Yeah it's a good line, which.

1545
01:26:44,320 --> 01:26:47,839
Speaker 6: Yes, yeah, because in the end, Batman and the police

1546
01:26:48,320 --> 01:26:51,080
Speaker 6: rise from the abyss. Literally in both cases, both of

1547
01:26:51,080 --> 01:26:54,880
Speaker 6: them are trapped underground. They both rise from underground join

1548
01:26:54,960 --> 01:27:00,000
Speaker 6: forces to battle the people occupying outside of the Gotham

1549
01:27:00,120 --> 01:27:03,320
Speaker 6: City stock Exchange. Batman fix his own death by disposing

1550
01:27:03,360 --> 01:27:06,479
Speaker 6: of this nuclear bomb, and Bruce Wayne gets to live

1551
01:27:06,520 --> 01:27:10,920
Speaker 6: happily in Florence with the criminal Selina Kyle. And then

1552
01:27:11,040 --> 01:27:14,760
Speaker 6: a new new phony martyr legend is born in the

1553
01:27:14,840 --> 01:27:17,519
Speaker 6: role of Batman and people of Gotham are returned once

1554
01:27:17,560 --> 01:27:20,880
Speaker 6: again to the status quo. I'm gonna read kind of

1555
01:27:20,880 --> 01:27:26,160
Speaker 6: Graver's final kind of overview of the entirety of this message,

1556
01:27:26,200 --> 01:27:28,479
Speaker 6: right like, of what this thing is really trying to convey,

1557
01:27:28,600 --> 01:27:30,800
Speaker 6: right quote. If they're supposed to be a take home

1558
01:27:30,800 --> 01:27:33,880
Speaker 6: message from all of this, it must run something like, yes,

1559
01:27:33,960 --> 01:27:36,639
Speaker 6: the system is corrupt, but it's all we have anyway.

1560
01:27:36,840 --> 01:27:39,320
Speaker 6: Figures of authority can be trusted if they've first been

1561
01:27:39,439 --> 01:27:44,000
Speaker 6: chastised and endued terrible suffering. Normal police might let children

1562
01:27:44,040 --> 01:27:46,439
Speaker 6: die on the bridges, but the police who've been buried

1563
01:27:46,439 --> 01:27:50,320
Speaker 6: alive for weeks can employ violence. Legitimately, charity is much

1564
01:27:50,320 --> 01:27:53,439
Speaker 6: better than addressing structural problems. Any attempts to address to

1565
01:27:53,439 --> 01:27:57,320
Speaker 6: such structural problems, even through nonviolent civil disobedience, really is

1566
01:27:57,320 --> 01:27:59,720
Speaker 6: a form of violence, because that's all it could possibly be.

1567
01:28:00,320 --> 01:28:04,520
Speaker 6: Imaginative politics are inherently violent, and therefore there's nothing inappropriate

1568
01:28:04,560 --> 01:28:08,200
Speaker 6: If police respond by smashing protesters' heads repeatedly against the

1569
01:28:08,280 --> 01:28:11,880
Speaker 6: concrete as a response to occupy, this is nothing short

1570
01:28:11,880 --> 01:28:13,720
Speaker 6: of pathetic. When The Dark Knight came out to this

1571
01:28:13,760 --> 01:28:15,439
Speaker 6: in eight there was much discussion over whether the whole

1572
01:28:15,439 --> 01:28:17,080
Speaker 6: thing was really just a vast metaphor for the War

1573
01:28:17,120 --> 01:28:19,280
Speaker 6: on Terror? How far is it okay for the good

1574
01:28:19,280 --> 01:28:22,600
Speaker 6: guys America? Obviously to adapt the bad guy's methods. The

1575
01:28:22,600 --> 01:28:24,880
Speaker 6: filmmakers managed to respond to these issues and still produce

1576
01:28:24,920 --> 01:28:27,200
Speaker 6: a good movie. This is because the War on Terror

1577
01:28:27,479 --> 01:28:30,440
Speaker 6: actually was a battle of secret networks and manipulative spectacles.

1578
01:28:30,680 --> 01:28:32,800
Speaker 6: It began with a bomb and ended with an assassination.

1579
01:28:33,520 --> 01:28:35,559
Speaker 6: One can almost think of it as an attempt on

1580
01:28:35,600 --> 01:28:38,680
Speaker 6: both sides to actually enact a comic book version of

1581
01:28:38,720 --> 01:28:43,400
Speaker 6: the universe. Once real constituent power appeared on the scene,

1582
01:28:43,560 --> 01:28:47,920
Speaker 6: the universe shriveled into incoherence. Revolutions were sweeping the Middle East,

1583
01:28:48,080 --> 01:28:50,640
Speaker 6: and the US was still spending hundreds of billions of

1584
01:28:50,640 --> 01:28:55,560
Speaker 6: dollars fighting a ragtag bunch of seminary students in Afghanistan. Unfortunately,

1585
01:28:55,560 --> 01:28:58,840
Speaker 6: for Nolan, for all of his manipulative powers, the same

1586
01:28:58,880 --> 01:29:01,439
Speaker 6: thing happened to his world when even the hint of

1587
01:29:01,520 --> 01:29:05,120
Speaker 6: real popular power arrived in New York. So that that

1588
01:29:05,200 --> 01:29:08,639
Speaker 6: is kind of the essence of Graber's view of this movie.

1589
01:29:08,760 --> 01:29:10,920
Speaker 6: I think it's pretty good. This is a This is

1590
01:29:11,160 --> 01:29:15,080
Speaker 6: a pretty a pretty solid take on this now there's

1591
01:29:15,160 --> 01:29:18,880
Speaker 6: obviously people who have opinions that are less good than this.

1592
01:29:20,800 --> 01:29:21,439
Speaker 4: I'm gonna read.

1593
01:29:21,479 --> 01:29:25,280
Speaker 6: I'm gonna read this this right up from from these

1594
01:29:25,320 --> 01:29:30,320
Speaker 6: two guys, Jeff Sprosse and Zach Buchamp, who argue that

1595
01:29:30,360 --> 01:29:35,439
Speaker 6: Batman represents this symbolic defense of liberal democracy, which I

1596
01:29:35,439 --> 01:29:38,040
Speaker 6: think is true. But the way that they go about

1597
01:29:38,040 --> 01:29:41,439
Speaker 6: their analysis I think is heavily flawed, Because yes, I

1598
01:29:41,479 --> 01:29:44,200
Speaker 6: do think he represents a defensive liberal democracy, I just

1599
01:29:44,200 --> 01:29:45,680
Speaker 6: don't think that's necessarily.

1600
01:29:45,200 --> 01:29:47,759
Speaker 4: A good thing. Yeah.

1601
01:29:47,960 --> 01:29:51,680
Speaker 6: So they talk about how fear is the kind of

1602
01:29:51,720 --> 01:29:55,400
Speaker 6: the core emotion across all of Nolan's Batman films. Right,

1603
01:29:55,600 --> 01:29:59,880
Speaker 6: we have in Batman begins fear and as it takes

1604
01:30:00,080 --> 01:30:02,599
Speaker 6: the form of Scarecrows, you know, one of the main villains.

1605
01:30:02,760 --> 01:30:05,080
Speaker 6: But we also have this terror of there being a

1606
01:30:05,200 --> 01:30:09,120
Speaker 6: powerful criminal underworld which overwhelms the power of political and

1607
01:30:09,160 --> 01:30:13,960
Speaker 6: social intitutions that are meant to address such criminal underworlds.

1608
01:30:14,720 --> 01:30:18,480
Speaker 6: We have Batman, in his role is to fight injustice

1609
01:30:18,479 --> 01:30:21,200
Speaker 6: by turning quote fear against those who prey on the

1610
01:30:21,280 --> 01:30:24,800
Speaker 6: fearful right Batman is this is this terrifying symbol meant

1611
01:30:24,840 --> 01:30:27,799
Speaker 6: to restore the balance of fear between the anarchic private

1612
01:30:28,240 --> 01:30:32,559
Speaker 6: underworld and the gutless public spear to quote Jeffinzax right

1613
01:30:32,680 --> 01:30:36,000
Speaker 6: up quote. In The Dark Knight, Nolan continues his examination

1614
01:30:36,160 --> 01:30:39,160
Speaker 6: of the terror of anarchy, as well as the potential

1615
01:30:39,200 --> 01:30:42,400
Speaker 6: for the state and allied institutions to abuse their enormous power.

1616
01:30:43,200 --> 01:30:46,000
Speaker 6: Bain and each of Nolan's other villains attempt to exploit

1617
01:30:46,040 --> 01:30:50,160
Speaker 6: fear for ideological projects, revenge or simple fun. Batman aims

1618
01:30:50,200 --> 01:30:53,439
Speaker 6: to channel it to make his opponents legitimate grievances subjects

1619
01:30:53,439 --> 01:30:57,400
Speaker 6: for debate in an orderly system, rather than through violent resolution,

1620
01:30:59,040 --> 01:31:02,639
Speaker 6: which is not what Batman does. That man punches people.

1621
01:31:05,360 --> 01:31:09,719
Speaker 6: Were we watching the same movies quote to entrust Gotham

1622
01:31:10,160 --> 01:31:12,120
Speaker 6: to heroes with a face, as he says in The

1623
01:31:12,160 --> 01:31:15,240
Speaker 6: Dark Knight, and to democratize Batman as a symbol that

1624
01:31:15,280 --> 01:31:18,799
Speaker 6: can be embodied by anyone. That it's not that Christopher

1625
01:31:18,840 --> 01:31:21,200
Speaker 6: Nolan is taking a side in our political debates. He's

1626
01:31:21,200 --> 01:31:26,360
Speaker 6: simply defending a particular system through which we address them,

1627
01:31:26,600 --> 01:31:30,800
Speaker 6: which is nonsense of A writer from Forbes said that

1628
01:31:30,840 --> 01:31:34,000
Speaker 6: this analysis is quote a beautiful rebuttal to those critics

1629
01:31:34,040 --> 01:31:37,240
Speaker 6: who viewed the film as fascistic or as a critique

1630
01:31:37,280 --> 01:31:41,000
Speaker 6: of left wing populism, Batman as the defender of liberal democracy,

1631
01:31:41,200 --> 01:31:45,559
Speaker 6: not of conservatism or liberalism, but the system itself from

1632
01:31:45,600 --> 01:31:48,680
Speaker 6: the forces of fear and chaos. Gotham as an examination

1633
01:31:48,720 --> 01:31:50,960
Speaker 6: of the frailties and pressure points that make this system

1634
01:31:51,000 --> 01:31:54,479
Speaker 6: weak in the face of the unexpected and uncontrollable. While

1635
01:31:54,560 --> 01:31:56,800
Speaker 6: there is indeed both praise for the role of civil

1636
01:31:56,800 --> 01:31:59,719
Speaker 6: society in these films, there's also a portrait of economic

1637
01:31:59,760 --> 01:32:03,640
Speaker 6: inn quality that provides the brittleness needed for men like

1638
01:32:03,720 --> 01:32:06,240
Speaker 6: Baying to truly succeed. This is not a critique of

1639
01:32:06,280 --> 01:32:08,120
Speaker 6: the government or private sector as so much as it

1640
01:32:08,160 --> 01:32:10,559
Speaker 6: is a critique of the frailty and fragility of our

1641
01:32:10,600 --> 01:32:14,160
Speaker 6: system and its institutions, and the power of symbols to

1642
01:32:14,320 --> 01:32:20,080
Speaker 6: combat this fragility, which is a deeply a deeply liberal analysis.

1643
01:32:20,080 --> 01:32:22,400
Speaker 5: It's not even good, Like I mean, this is the thing,

1644
01:32:22,439 --> 01:32:24,160
Speaker 5: this is the thing that really pisses me off about this.

1645
01:32:24,200 --> 01:32:28,320
Speaker 5: So the cadre of liberal intellectuals that we've gotten in

1646
01:32:28,360 --> 01:32:32,880
Speaker 5: the last like twenty years, it's like, look, you don't

1647
01:32:33,520 --> 01:32:38,600
Speaker 5: have to be like unable to form coherent and that

1648
01:32:38,800 --> 01:32:41,479
Speaker 5: like it is it is not a precept of liberal

1649
01:32:41,720 --> 01:32:45,040
Speaker 5: like of like liberal intellectualism, that you are unable to

1650
01:32:45,040 --> 01:32:47,400
Speaker 5: form a coherent argument or do any piece of analizable

1651
01:32:47,800 --> 01:32:49,720
Speaker 5: like they used to be able to do this, and

1652
01:32:49,720 --> 01:32:52,639
Speaker 5: then at some point, like after the War on Terror,

1653
01:32:52,840 --> 01:32:54,800
Speaker 5: they just stopped. Yea, Now all we have is like

1654
01:32:54,840 --> 01:32:56,720
Speaker 5: matt Iglesias and it's like these I.

1655
01:32:56,720 --> 01:32:58,760
Speaker 6: Think, well, like this is what Greaver talks about when

1656
01:32:58,800 --> 01:33:02,559
Speaker 6: there's like a fundamental incoherhearrance, And I think this is

1657
01:33:02,600 --> 01:33:05,120
Speaker 6: really exemplified by like the structure of The Dark Knight.

1658
01:33:05,160 --> 01:33:07,800
Speaker 6: Rices It's a very messy film. The pacing is bad,

1659
01:33:08,160 --> 01:33:11,920
Speaker 6: the plot is very convoluted. It's it's so it's so plotting,

1660
01:33:11,920 --> 01:33:14,240
Speaker 6: which is often Nolan's kind of biggest failure as a

1661
01:33:14,240 --> 01:33:17,479
Speaker 6: as a filmmaker in my opinion, it's it's it's very

1662
01:33:17,520 --> 01:33:22,360
Speaker 6: structurally just confusing, whereas The Dark Knight is actually pretty clear.

1663
01:33:23,040 --> 01:33:24,640
Speaker 6: It still has a few of those weird plot like

1664
01:33:24,760 --> 01:33:28,000
Speaker 6: super plotty elements, but overall it's it's it's it's much clearer.

1665
01:33:28,120 --> 01:33:30,439
Speaker 6: But in the wake of the War on Terror and

1666
01:33:30,479 --> 01:33:33,599
Speaker 6: then the financial crash, there's this fundamental incoherence that kind

1667
01:33:33,600 --> 01:33:37,280
Speaker 6: of seeps into everything. I have two final takes to

1668
01:33:37,600 --> 01:33:39,880
Speaker 6: read say. I know, I know we are getting along here,

1669
01:33:40,120 --> 01:33:42,240
Speaker 6: but I think it's important to look at what the

1670
01:33:42,280 --> 01:33:45,639
Speaker 6: conservatives and the fascist rite actually said about this movie,

1671
01:33:46,000 --> 01:33:49,200
Speaker 6: beyond just the conspiracy rattled ramblings that we started this

1672
01:33:49,240 --> 01:33:53,759
Speaker 6: episode with. This is from The Daily Caller twenty twelve.

1673
01:33:55,000 --> 01:33:57,240
Speaker 6: The film is sympathetic to the concerns of the poor

1674
01:33:57,680 --> 01:34:00,760
Speaker 6: and points out that some who achieve well don't earn

1675
01:34:00,800 --> 01:34:04,160
Speaker 6: it legitimately. But these themes disappear as soon as the

1676
01:34:04,240 --> 01:34:08,599
Speaker 6: hulking terrorist Baine takes over Gotham City. All that criminals

1677
01:34:08,600 --> 01:34:11,559
Speaker 6: are released, rich people are executed in sham trials headed

1678
01:34:11,600 --> 01:34:14,839
Speaker 6: up by Baines's lunatic friends, government officials and police officers

1679
01:34:14,880 --> 01:34:17,960
Speaker 6: are killed or captured. Bain claims that he is solving

1680
01:34:18,000 --> 01:34:20,840
Speaker 6: inequality by leveling the playing field, but his true plan

1681
01:34:20,920 --> 01:34:23,599
Speaker 6: is to perpetuate mass murder by setting off a nuclear bomb.

1682
01:34:24,840 --> 01:34:29,840
Speaker 6: In this way, viewers see a familiar story unfold, one

1683
01:34:29,880 --> 01:34:34,920
Speaker 6: that's reminiscent of communist and fascist revolutions in Russia, Germany, Cambodia,

1684
01:34:34,960 --> 01:34:38,559
Speaker 6: and North Korea. No matter how legitimate criticisms of the economic, political,

1685
01:34:38,560 --> 01:34:41,559
Speaker 6: and social order may be, any revolution that shatters the

1686
01:34:41,640 --> 01:34:46,080
Speaker 6: rule of law or eliminates the market entirely will necessarily

1687
01:34:46,120 --> 01:34:48,800
Speaker 6: results in greater inequality, suffering, and death.

1688
01:34:49,680 --> 01:34:52,160
Speaker 5: It's so funny you can tell how on the defensive

1689
01:34:52,200 --> 01:34:54,400
Speaker 5: they are, like in the way you've occupied because yes,

1690
01:34:54,439 --> 01:34:54,720
Speaker 5: you have.

1691
01:34:54,720 --> 01:34:57,519
Speaker 4: These people going like wait, social inequality is real, but

1692
01:34:57,720 --> 01:34:58,960
Speaker 4: if you try to do anything to.

1693
01:34:58,960 --> 01:35:00,920
Speaker 5: It, it's also so f This is this is the

1694
01:35:00,960 --> 01:35:03,680
Speaker 5: interesting thing about like I think I think the fundamentally

1695
01:35:03,680 --> 01:35:06,400
Speaker 5: incoherence of it politically is that they've tried to graft

1696
01:35:06,400 --> 01:35:09,000
Speaker 5: the French Revolution onto Occupy because like, yes, yes, the

1697
01:35:09,000 --> 01:35:11,800
Speaker 5: two things that Occupy resolutely refused to do was one

1698
01:35:12,080 --> 01:35:15,519
Speaker 5: have a leader and two like do any kind of

1699
01:35:15,560 --> 01:35:19,040
Speaker 5: mass violence, like arguably outside of Oakland, but that wasn't

1700
01:35:19,080 --> 01:35:20,719
Speaker 5: even like but that was like ok, in Oakland.

1701
01:35:20,800 --> 01:35:24,000
Speaker 4: Sometimes they fought the cops, like in New York, Like now,

1702
01:35:24,040 --> 01:35:24,639
Speaker 4: the only.

1703
01:35:24,439 --> 01:35:26,920
Speaker 5: Bank window in New York that was broken the entire

1704
01:35:26,960 --> 01:35:29,719
Speaker 5: time was I think it was a Bank of America

1705
01:35:29,760 --> 01:35:31,639
Speaker 5: window that was broken when a cop smash of protest

1706
01:35:31,720 --> 01:35:32,280
Speaker 5: just head through it.

1707
01:35:32,760 --> 01:35:35,680
Speaker 6: Like that's it's that's why, that's why I really don't

1708
01:35:35,720 --> 01:35:39,160
Speaker 6: think the darknet rices isn't about Occupy it just like

1709
01:35:39,360 --> 01:35:42,799
Speaker 6: it just isn't It arose from similar conditions that Occupy

1710
01:35:42,840 --> 01:35:45,120
Speaker 6: arose from. And then in its final two months of

1711
01:35:45,120 --> 01:35:48,439
Speaker 6: filming they did some parallels to Occupy, but it is

1712
01:35:48,600 --> 01:35:51,200
Speaker 6: much more about the French Revolution, especially in like beans

1713
01:35:51,240 --> 01:35:53,400
Speaker 6: like a vanguard, like he is a leader of this

1714
01:35:54,080 --> 01:35:56,479
Speaker 6: there is there's no but there's no such role in Occupy.

1715
01:35:56,760 --> 01:35:56,920
Speaker 4: Now.

1716
01:35:57,080 --> 01:35:59,439
Speaker 6: During during the editing and final production of the film,

1717
01:35:59,560 --> 01:36:02,519
Speaker 6: obviously they realize that there is some obvious parallels here,

1718
01:36:02,680 --> 01:36:05,400
Speaker 6: which they do, which they did indulge in. But I

1719
01:36:05,400 --> 01:36:07,000
Speaker 6: mean most of the writing and the filming of this

1720
01:36:07,160 --> 01:36:09,920
Speaker 6: took place before Occupy. I think it just came from

1721
01:36:09,920 --> 01:36:11,920
Speaker 6: a very similar social place.

1722
01:36:13,000 --> 01:36:13,200
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1723
01:36:13,200 --> 01:36:16,040
Speaker 5: Also, though even as a French Revolution thing, it's incoherent because.

1724
01:36:15,760 --> 01:36:19,240
Speaker 6: It's like it's not like rose Beer got in there

1725
01:36:19,280 --> 01:36:23,600
Speaker 6: and was like this is all a secret plot executing beggars,

1726
01:36:23,640 --> 01:36:26,720
Speaker 6: Like it doesn't make any sense. It's like that's why

1727
01:36:26,800 --> 01:36:30,519
Speaker 6: it has that fundamental incoherence, right. Yeah, there's one other

1728
01:36:30,560 --> 01:36:32,559
Speaker 6: paragraph from the from the Daily Caller. Then we will

1729
01:36:32,600 --> 01:36:37,559
Speaker 6: read something from Breitbart, like the communist parties of real

1730
01:36:37,600 --> 01:36:41,479
Speaker 6: authoritarian states, Baine and his Cohurtz represent a new ruling

1731
01:36:41,520 --> 01:36:44,200
Speaker 6: class that pretends to care about equality and liberation, but

1732
01:36:44,240 --> 01:36:48,479
Speaker 6: in practice resorts to oppression and extreme violence. The film's

1733
01:36:48,520 --> 01:36:51,639
Speaker 6: good guys are Batman and the police officers of Gotham

1734
01:36:51,800 --> 01:36:55,200
Speaker 6: who bravely go to war to prevent Baine's genocide.

1735
01:37:00,040 --> 01:37:02,200
Speaker 4: These guys have, These guys have never had more than

1736
01:37:02,240 --> 01:37:05,800
Speaker 4: two thoughts like consecutively. It's purely impressive.

1737
01:37:06,520 --> 01:37:09,240
Speaker 6: If the political message of The Dark Knight Risis seems muddled,

1738
01:37:09,400 --> 01:37:13,360
Speaker 6: which it does, it's because real life problems can't be

1739
01:37:13,479 --> 01:37:17,000
Speaker 6: solved with Batman. There is no well funded superhero with

1740
01:37:17,040 --> 01:37:21,479
Speaker 6: a glut of fancy gadgets and moral incruptibility. No, A

1741
01:37:21,560 --> 01:37:24,280
Speaker 6: core part of these films is that Batman is morally corrupt.

1742
01:37:24,320 --> 01:37:24,840
Speaker 4: This is sorry.

1743
01:37:26,280 --> 01:37:30,560
Speaker 6: Nor are there villains in America as damning and transparently

1744
01:37:30,680 --> 01:37:36,679
Speaker 6: evil as Bane. The film doesn't offer much. The film

1745
01:37:36,720 --> 01:37:41,000
Speaker 6: doesn't offer much of a practical answer for what. The

1746
01:37:41,000 --> 01:37:43,599
Speaker 6: film doesn't offer much of a practical answer for what

1747
01:37:43,640 --> 01:37:47,479
Speaker 6: to do about inequality, social unrest or terrorism.

1748
01:37:47,760 --> 01:37:52,439
Speaker 4: Great great work, daily collar God. Now where do they

1749
01:37:52,479 --> 01:37:54,280
Speaker 4: find these guys? I guess I find these guys from

1750
01:37:54,320 --> 01:37:56,759
Speaker 4: failed actors. So makes sense.

1751
01:37:57,280 --> 01:38:00,759
Speaker 6: So you mentioned Bush as being an obvious villain well

1752
01:38:01,439 --> 01:38:06,760
Speaker 6: Breight part disagrees, obviously bright part disagrees. Here is here's

1753
01:38:06,800 --> 01:38:11,479
Speaker 6: our final take on The Dark Knight Rises. Quote Bain,

1754
01:38:11,960 --> 01:38:14,519
Speaker 6: a hulk of a man burning with resentment against a

1755
01:38:14,560 --> 01:38:19,880
Speaker 6: society whose only provocation is being prosperous, generous, welcoming, and

1756
01:38:19,960 --> 01:38:27,040
Speaker 6: content instead of miserable like him. That's not Bain's gripes,

1757
01:38:27,120 --> 01:38:31,919
Speaker 6: but anyway, in Gotham sewers, Bain recruits those like himself,

1758
01:38:32,200 --> 01:38:38,040
Speaker 6: the insecure thumbsuckers, raging with a sense of entitlement, desperate

1759
01:38:38,040 --> 01:38:42,360
Speaker 6: to justify their own laziness and failure, and to flaunt

1760
01:38:42,400 --> 01:38:46,760
Speaker 6: a false sense of superiority through oppression, violence, terror, and

1761
01:38:46,880 --> 01:38:53,800
Speaker 6: ultimately total and complete destruction. As expected, The Dark Knight

1762
01:38:53,920 --> 01:38:57,280
Speaker 6: Rises is a love letter to Gotham City. It's flawed

1763
01:38:57,320 --> 01:39:02,080
Speaker 6: but ultimately decent people. It's industry and generosity, all of

1764
01:39:02,120 --> 01:39:06,120
Speaker 6: which are by products of liberty, free markets, and capitalism.

1765
01:39:06,360 --> 01:39:09,160
Speaker 4: In other words, watch this movie in other words.

1766
01:39:09,960 --> 01:39:13,120
Speaker 6: In other words, just as The Dark Knight was a

1767
01:39:13,160 --> 01:39:17,599
Speaker 6: touching tribute to an embattled George W. Bush, who chose

1768
01:39:17,640 --> 01:39:20,600
Speaker 6: to be seen as a villain in order to be

1769
01:39:20,680 --> 01:39:25,080
Speaker 6: the hero, Rises is a love letter to an imperfect America,

1770
01:39:25,160 --> 01:39:28,479
Speaker 6: that in the end always does the right thing. And

1771
01:39:28,520 --> 01:39:32,120
Speaker 6: Nolan loves the American people, the wealthy producers who are

1772
01:39:32,160 --> 01:39:35,519
Speaker 6: more often than not trickled down their hard earned winnings,

1773
01:39:35,840 --> 01:39:38,960
Speaker 6: the workaday folks who keep our world turning a financial

1774
01:39:39,000 --> 01:39:42,160
Speaker 6: system worth saving because it benefits it's all, and those

1775
01:39:42,280 --> 01:39:45,519
Speaker 6: everyday warriors who offered their lives for the greater good

1776
01:39:45,760 --> 01:39:49,200
Speaker 6: with every punch of a clock. Nolan's love for this

1777
01:39:49,280 --> 01:39:52,760
Speaker 6: country is without qualifiers, and is symbolized in all of

1778
01:39:52,760 --> 01:39:56,679
Speaker 6: its unqualified sincerity, in the form of a beautiful young

1779
01:39:56,800 --> 01:40:00,880
Speaker 6: child sweetly singing a complete version of the Star Spangled Banner,

1780
01:40:01,479 --> 01:40:05,479
Speaker 6: just before Occupy attempts to fulfill its horrific vision of

1781
01:40:05,479 --> 01:40:09,839
Speaker 6: what equality really means. Nolan, Sorry, I can't.

1782
01:40:11,680 --> 01:40:12,240
Speaker 4: Like this.

1783
01:40:12,360 --> 01:40:16,040
Speaker 5: Is this one passage, this whole thing is. It's such

1784
01:40:16,080 --> 01:40:19,800
Speaker 5: a great explanation if you weren't around for for how

1785
01:40:19,880 --> 01:40:22,760
Speaker 5: the Trump guys just completely blew aside all of the

1786
01:40:22,760 --> 01:40:25,759
Speaker 5: old George Bush coalition because all of the George Bush

1787
01:40:25,800 --> 01:40:28,479
Speaker 5: guys were fucking like this. They all talked like this.

1788
01:40:28,640 --> 01:40:34,600
Speaker 5: It was this like absolutely insufferable, like since it's completely

1789
01:40:34,640 --> 01:40:38,800
Speaker 5: completely sincere nonsense, it's crazy. It's still all this ship

1790
01:40:38,920 --> 01:40:44,040
Speaker 5: because it fundamentally misunderstands Nolan's a filmmaker. He's purposely juxtaposing

1791
01:40:44,320 --> 01:40:47,719
Speaker 5: a British child that's singing the star spangled banner at

1792
01:40:47,720 --> 01:40:51,679
Speaker 5: a sporting event with this destruction inherent to America. He's he's,

1793
01:40:51,760 --> 01:40:54,639
Speaker 5: he is, He's making these things kind of combat each

1794
01:40:54,640 --> 01:40:57,040
Speaker 5: other like this is this is actually pretty good framing

1795
01:40:57,560 --> 01:41:02,280
Speaker 5: and this guy fundamentally must understands this. Nolan's genius is

1796
01:41:02,280 --> 01:41:05,719
Speaker 5: a filmmakers well, Nolan's genius as a filmmaker is, without question,

1797
01:41:06,080 --> 01:41:09,880
Speaker 5: the pacing, the editing, the performances, the humanity of the

1798
01:41:09,920 --> 01:41:13,320
Speaker 5: duc Knight Rises will be talked about for decades, which

1799
01:41:13,360 --> 01:41:15,960
Speaker 5: it doesn't. This is by far one of his worst films.

1800
01:41:16,360 --> 01:41:18,640
Speaker 5: This is widely seen as one of one of his

1801
01:41:18,680 --> 01:41:22,880
Speaker 5: worst films. The editing, pacing, performances are all heavily criticized.

1802
01:41:22,920 --> 01:41:26,439
Speaker 5: This is actually like a bad movie. I do like

1803
01:41:26,479 --> 01:41:29,200
Speaker 5: the juxtaposition of the star spangle banner at the sporting

1804
01:41:29,240 --> 01:41:31,720
Speaker 5: event with this like spectacle of destruction. I think that

1805
01:41:31,720 --> 01:41:32,360
Speaker 5: plays very.

1806
01:41:32,280 --> 01:41:37,160
Speaker 4: Well, but like that is this is come on, come on,

1807
01:41:37,360 --> 01:41:38,400
Speaker 4: like these are.

1808
01:41:38,280 --> 01:41:40,280
Speaker 5: The people who and this is this is the thing,

1809
01:41:40,280 --> 01:41:42,400
Speaker 5: this is this, this is why the sort of trumpest

1810
01:41:43,360 --> 01:41:46,719
Speaker 5: like the sort of sort of like ironic detachment stuff

1811
01:41:47,280 --> 01:41:50,519
Speaker 5: became so popular because these are the people who listen

1812
01:41:50,560 --> 01:41:53,120
Speaker 5: to Born in the USA and are like this rules

1813
01:41:53,240 --> 01:41:55,000
Speaker 5: this rue like this is this is this is about

1814
01:41:55,000 --> 01:41:58,840
Speaker 5: how America is good. And it's just like like these people.

1815
01:41:58,760 --> 01:42:01,240
Speaker 4: They have nothing. There's nothing going on with them. There's

1816
01:42:01,240 --> 01:42:03,120
Speaker 4: just just like there's nothing going on in their heads.

1817
01:42:03,280 --> 01:42:05,880
Speaker 5: They don't have any ideas whatsoever. They just have that

1818
01:42:06,040 --> 01:42:08,639
Speaker 5: like they just have this like reflexive flag warship stuff

1819
01:42:08,640 --> 01:42:13,280
Speaker 5: and that it's awful. It's it's like the whole fucking

1820
01:42:13,280 --> 01:42:17,919
Speaker 5: American right was like this. It's just like, yeah, Soland.

1821
01:42:17,680 --> 01:42:18,840
Speaker 4: Trumpy has just destroyed them.

1822
01:42:18,840 --> 01:42:21,720
Speaker 6: Because this is a really good example of nothing of

1823
01:42:21,760 --> 01:42:25,680
Speaker 6: the conservative political conditions that led to populace to takeover right.

1824
01:42:25,680 --> 01:42:28,520
Speaker 6: We have all of these guys who are lampooning populism

1825
01:42:29,320 --> 01:42:33,120
Speaker 6: and had this very like deeply sincere neo conservative outlook,

1826
01:42:33,240 --> 01:42:36,840
Speaker 6: which then got all got decimated in three years by

1827
01:42:36,920 --> 01:42:40,360
Speaker 6: Trump's very kind of basic childish rhetoric just just blew

1828
01:42:40,400 --> 01:42:43,320
Speaker 6: this stuff out of out of the water. I think

1829
01:42:43,479 --> 01:42:45,679
Speaker 6: this is all this stuff is a very fascinating snapshot

1830
01:42:45,720 --> 01:42:48,120
Speaker 6: into the politics of ten years ago. I know there's

1831
01:42:48,160 --> 01:42:49,640
Speaker 6: a lot of zoomers who listened to this who may not.

1832
01:42:49,680 --> 01:42:52,040
Speaker 6: It's been this politically kind of engaged in twenty twelve.

1833
01:42:52,240 --> 01:42:54,280
Speaker 6: All this stuff is a very good look at that.

1834
01:42:55,439 --> 01:42:58,679
Speaker 6: And I know this is too long, but the final

1835
01:42:58,720 --> 01:43:01,799
Speaker 6: final thing to just like that. We will return, as

1836
01:43:02,040 --> 01:43:05,040
Speaker 6: as all good superhero stories do, return to the status

1837
01:43:05,120 --> 01:43:10,639
Speaker 6: quo of my paranoia. Conspiracy Reader magazine, which also had

1838
01:43:10,680 --> 01:43:13,760
Speaker 6: a review for The Cabin in the Woods movie Uh,

1839
01:43:14,080 --> 01:43:17,280
Speaker 6: which it thinks is a secret Illuminati message about how

1840
01:43:17,439 --> 01:43:20,920
Speaker 6: there's secretly control rooms that are that are like navigating

1841
01:43:20,960 --> 01:43:22,960
Speaker 6: your entire life. There's like people in control rooms who

1842
01:43:23,000 --> 01:43:26,200
Speaker 6: are like controlling every every spect of your life. The

1843
01:43:26,479 --> 01:43:30,000
Speaker 6: Cabin in Woods was an ironic admission of this pretty good,

1844
01:43:30,080 --> 01:43:33,679
Speaker 6: Pretty good. Our technic credit controllers and manipulators are crass

1845
01:43:33,680 --> 01:43:36,920
Speaker 6: and evil pretenders, able to get off only spectacles of

1846
01:43:36,960 --> 01:43:39,760
Speaker 6: pain and torture. Pretty funny. There's some quite racist stuff

1847
01:43:39,760 --> 01:43:41,479
Speaker 6: in the middle, which is not not even gonna mention.

1848
01:43:42,680 --> 01:43:44,599
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, that's the everything. It was like people were

1849
01:43:44,640 --> 01:43:47,040
Speaker 4: really racist. People are still really racist. People are still

1850
01:43:47,080 --> 01:43:47,639
Speaker 4: quite racist.

1851
01:43:47,720 --> 01:43:50,799
Speaker 5: Shit that like like you could say, ship back, like

1852
01:43:50,800 --> 01:43:53,599
Speaker 5: like people who are ostensibly liberals, would say shit back

1853
01:43:53,600 --> 01:43:56,719
Speaker 5: then that like would get you like thrown off a building.

1854
01:43:56,760 --> 01:43:59,559
Speaker 6: Today we have an article by someone who says, quote,

1855
01:43:59,680 --> 01:44:03,000
Speaker 6: my author worked with Jimmy Carter on the submarine one

1856
01:44:03,080 --> 01:44:07,160
Speaker 6: Killer and chased flying saucers for Project Blue Book, which

1857
01:44:07,240 --> 01:44:08,880
Speaker 6: is a fascinating article.

1858
01:44:11,320 --> 01:44:13,360
Speaker 4: Then it talks it also talks.

1859
01:44:13,160 --> 01:44:16,400
Speaker 6: About here that a cern is building a matrix, like

1860
01:44:16,439 --> 01:44:18,040
Speaker 6: you know, like the movie The Matrix.

1861
01:44:18,400 --> 01:44:22,880
Speaker 5: Fucking god we have when you do an episode about

1862
01:44:23,120 --> 01:44:26,479
Speaker 5: about the should what's the silliest thing we really should

1863
01:44:26,520 --> 01:44:29,960
Speaker 5: do an episode about certain conspiracies, because yeah, they are

1864
01:44:30,000 --> 01:44:31,559
Speaker 5: they are certainly quite amusing.

1865
01:44:31,640 --> 01:44:34,719
Speaker 6: There's one other aspect in this article that I wanted

1866
01:44:34,720 --> 01:44:35,120
Speaker 6: to mention.

1867
01:44:35,640 --> 01:44:37,240
Speaker 7: Here's the serns to Oh here it is here?

1868
01:44:37,280 --> 01:44:37,680
Speaker 2: What it is?

1869
01:44:38,040 --> 01:44:38,160
Speaker 8: This?

1870
01:44:38,160 --> 01:44:42,479
Speaker 6: It is in the Alister Crowley section of the article. No, no,

1871
01:44:44,360 --> 01:44:47,560
Speaker 6: you know, I I think we've actually suffered enough. I

1872
01:44:47,640 --> 01:44:51,120
Speaker 6: will I will let you imagine what this guy what

1873
01:44:51,240 --> 01:44:54,679
Speaker 6: this guy says about Alister Crowley, Hitler and beef Vendetta.

1874
01:44:56,120 --> 01:44:59,559
Speaker 6: Oh no, so I'll let you imagine what that says.

1875
01:44:59,560 --> 01:45:02,240
Speaker 6: Because we we've gone on too long. I'm happy you

1876
01:45:02,240 --> 01:45:05,280
Speaker 6: were able to join us in our deep dive into

1877
01:45:05,760 --> 01:45:08,600
Speaker 6: the twenty twelve disaster. The Dark Knight Rise is not

1878
01:45:08,720 --> 01:45:11,320
Speaker 6: very good movie. And instead, if you want to watch

1879
01:45:11,320 --> 01:45:15,719
Speaker 6: a Batman film about politics and Christmas, just watch Batman Returns.

1880
01:45:15,840 --> 01:45:18,360
Speaker 6: That's what I'm doing this week, So get your friends together.

1881
01:45:18,600 --> 01:45:21,240
Speaker 6: Watch Danny DeVito vomit black goo for two hours watching

1882
01:45:21,280 --> 01:45:24,800
Speaker 6: Michelle Feifer's Catwoman in a latex suit. It is much

1883
01:45:24,960 --> 01:45:28,000
Speaker 6: much better. So that does it for us today here

1884
01:45:28,200 --> 01:45:31,840
Speaker 6: it could happen here. I hope we lead a little

1885
01:45:31,840 --> 01:45:37,759
Speaker 6: bit something about constituent power police superheroes and how CERN

1886
01:45:37,840 --> 01:45:41,280
Speaker 6: is building a matrix and this predictive programming targeting the

1887
01:45:41,320 --> 01:45:52,240
Speaker 6: next Winter Olympics.

1888
01:45:58,000 --> 01:46:01,520
Speaker 9: Hello everyone, and welcome to it could have here podcasts

1889
01:46:01,560 --> 01:46:04,839
Speaker 9: about the world falling apart and people putting it back together.

1890
01:46:05,000 --> 01:46:08,120
Speaker 9: Today I'm lucky to be joined by Margaret Kildury. She

1891
01:46:08,240 --> 01:46:10,080
Speaker 9: is the host of Live Up The World Is Dying,

1892
01:46:10,680 --> 01:46:13,640
Speaker 9: a podcast what feels like the end Times? And we

1893
01:46:13,720 --> 01:46:16,600
Speaker 9: are going to talk about bug out bags, don't me, Margaret.

1894
01:46:16,520 --> 01:46:19,920
Speaker 4: Woo bug out bags or bill bags? Yes? Or I

1895
01:46:19,920 --> 01:46:22,120
Speaker 4: bet they have other names. Okay, wait, can I tell

1896
01:46:22,120 --> 01:46:25,439
Speaker 4: you my favorite? Yeah? I hate me? Okay, the First Preppers.

1897
01:46:25,479 --> 01:46:28,719
Speaker 4: I ever met were these like weird cool anarchists twenty

1898
01:46:28,840 --> 01:46:33,160
Speaker 4: years ago they had oh shit gear or OSG in

1899
01:46:33,200 --> 01:46:35,639
Speaker 4: their basement. I love that. But yeah, that's great.

1900
01:46:35,840 --> 01:46:38,400
Speaker 9: It's basically what you're talking about, Like, it's the it's

1901
01:46:38,439 --> 01:46:40,320
Speaker 9: the thing that you go for when things are going

1902
01:46:40,320 --> 01:46:40,639
Speaker 9: to shit.

1903
01:46:41,280 --> 01:46:42,000
Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah.

1904
01:46:42,040 --> 01:46:44,960
Speaker 9: And I think the reason we're talking about this right

1905
01:46:45,280 --> 01:46:48,000
Speaker 9: is A because it's entertaining. It's always fun to engage

1906
01:46:48,000 --> 01:46:51,280
Speaker 9: in hypotheticals. B Because we've got Margaret here, because she's

1907
01:46:51,360 --> 01:46:53,320
Speaker 9: very knowledgeable on this stuff, and that's what she covers

1908
01:46:53,320 --> 01:46:55,040
Speaker 9: on If the World is Dying. If you haven't listened

1909
01:46:55,040 --> 01:46:56,000
Speaker 9: to that podcast, you should.

1910
01:46:56,439 --> 01:46:57,000
Speaker 4: It's very good.

1911
01:46:57,000 --> 01:47:01,719
Speaker 9: It's got lots of like sensible preparedness focused content.

1912
01:47:02,479 --> 01:47:05,639
Speaker 4: It's a fair, fair summary. Muggret, I hope.

1913
01:47:05,680 --> 01:47:05,760
Speaker 8: So.

1914
01:47:06,280 --> 01:47:06,479
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1915
01:47:06,520 --> 01:47:08,479
Speaker 4: Our whole thing is that we're basically trying to talk

1916
01:47:08,479 --> 01:47:10,400
Speaker 4: about community prep I'm not the only host in one

1917
01:47:10,439 --> 01:47:12,959
Speaker 4: of three hosts. Yes, we try to talk about community

1918
01:47:12,960 --> 01:47:16,200
Speaker 4: preparedness rather than individual preparedness, or rather how the two

1919
01:47:16,280 --> 01:47:19,280
Speaker 4: are not at odds with each other, like how what's

1920
01:47:19,320 --> 01:47:21,200
Speaker 4: best for the individual is to be part of a

1921
01:47:21,200 --> 01:47:24,519
Speaker 4: functioning community, and how like the bunker mentality will get

1922
01:47:24,520 --> 01:47:26,720
Speaker 4: you killed. So one of my favorite things in the

1923
01:47:26,760 --> 01:47:31,120
Speaker 4: world is talking shit on preparedness done wrong. And since

1924
01:47:31,240 --> 01:47:36,559
Speaker 4: most of the preparedness space skews at best center right,

1925
01:47:37,080 --> 01:47:40,400
Speaker 4: but also far right, there's lots of it done wrong

1926
01:47:40,439 --> 01:47:43,960
Speaker 4: that we can talk shit on. Like, for example, this

1927
01:47:44,040 --> 01:47:44,920
Speaker 4: is me setting you up for.

1928
01:47:44,960 --> 01:47:47,880
Speaker 9: Yeah, yeah, bug out bags there it is. Yeah, that's

1929
01:47:47,880 --> 01:47:51,519
Speaker 9: like a layup and a dunk basketball, understand it.

1930
01:47:51,880 --> 01:47:52,800
Speaker 4: We're really good at it.

1931
01:47:53,120 --> 01:47:55,440
Speaker 9: Yeah, there's nothing that we like more than sportsball.

1932
01:47:56,080 --> 01:47:56,679
Speaker 4: Yeah, okay.

1933
01:47:56,960 --> 01:47:59,360
Speaker 9: So the reason we talk about this today is because

1934
01:47:59,439 --> 01:48:01,400
Speaker 9: I have done a lot of time recently in refugee

1935
01:48:01,400 --> 01:48:04,880
Speaker 9: camps helping out, helping people, feeding people, giving them blankets,

1936
01:48:05,520 --> 01:48:08,719
Speaker 9: playing with their children, doing all the things. And obviously

1937
01:48:08,720 --> 01:48:11,360
Speaker 9: everyone who who enters these camps comes with a bag, right,

1938
01:48:11,400 --> 01:48:13,160
Speaker 9: They bring a bag with them. They can generally have

1939
01:48:13,200 --> 01:48:15,639
Speaker 9: one sort of carry on size bag when they enter custody,

1940
01:48:16,640 --> 01:48:18,719
Speaker 9: and that's generally all you can carry when you're moving

1941
01:48:18,720 --> 01:48:24,560
Speaker 9: across the desert mountain ranges of Baja California and Serthern, California.

1942
01:48:24,880 --> 01:48:27,679
Speaker 9: And I was spend the day there and it was cold,

1943
01:48:27,720 --> 01:48:29,240
Speaker 9: and it was wet, it was miserable, and I was

1944
01:48:29,280 --> 01:48:30,720
Speaker 9: trying to keep people warm, and I was trying to

1945
01:48:30,720 --> 01:48:34,280
Speaker 9: build shelters all day, and I was trying to just

1946
01:48:34,400 --> 01:48:36,600
Speaker 9: do things along with my friends. Obviously, this is by

1947
01:48:36,640 --> 01:48:38,559
Speaker 9: no means a solo effort. It's a great group of

1948
01:48:38,560 --> 01:48:40,720
Speaker 9: people who you've all heard about if you listen to

1949
01:48:40,760 --> 01:48:41,280
Speaker 9: this podcast.

1950
01:48:42,240 --> 01:48:43,920
Speaker 4: We've been out there all day. And then I got

1951
01:48:43,920 --> 01:48:44,879
Speaker 4: back and.

1952
01:48:45,080 --> 01:48:47,760
Speaker 9: Just because I hadn't you know, had a difficult enough day,

1953
01:48:47,800 --> 01:48:49,040
Speaker 9: I lugged onto Twitter dot.

1954
01:48:48,840 --> 01:48:53,080
Speaker 4: Com at dot com day to get worse.

1955
01:48:53,280 --> 01:48:55,320
Speaker 9: Yeah, exactly, I thought, what can I do? Let's be

1956
01:48:55,400 --> 01:48:57,680
Speaker 9: pissed off at a fucking stranger on the internet you

1957
01:48:57,720 --> 01:48:59,479
Speaker 9: don't care about and you've never met, but you let

1958
01:48:59,479 --> 01:49:00,719
Speaker 9: them make you angry anyway.

1959
01:49:01,240 --> 01:49:02,479
Speaker 4: That's why that's what I did.

1960
01:49:03,040 --> 01:49:06,120
Speaker 9: I loved on, and I loved on promptly to be

1961
01:49:06,120 --> 01:49:08,479
Speaker 9: greeted by some prick with I guess not your fault.

1962
01:49:08,479 --> 01:49:10,479
Speaker 9: I supposedly didn't be a prick whatever. Someone someone who

1963
01:49:10,479 --> 01:49:15,679
Speaker 9: hadn't quite like, someone whose idea of preparedness was heavily

1964
01:49:15,680 --> 01:49:18,439
Speaker 9: influenced by the film Red Dawn and not by reality,

1965
01:49:20,479 --> 01:49:23,080
Speaker 9: which is like ninety percent of the people in that space.

1966
01:49:24,439 --> 01:49:26,479
Speaker 9: But this person had, you know, this this kit with

1967
01:49:26,520 --> 01:49:31,160
Speaker 9: a with a gas mask with a folding AR fifteen right,

1968
01:49:31,200 --> 01:49:33,400
Speaker 9: with one of those law tactical folding things, so you

1969
01:49:33,400 --> 01:49:37,639
Speaker 9: can like break the buffer tube with seven or eight

1970
01:49:37,720 --> 01:49:43,120
Speaker 9: magazines of ammunition. Like just like it just the sort

1971
01:49:43,120 --> 01:49:45,840
Speaker 9: of stuff that, yeah, sure you would need to do

1972
01:49:46,120 --> 01:49:49,760
Speaker 9: like one sustained firefight and then then what are you

1973
01:49:49,800 --> 01:49:52,640
Speaker 9: going to do? But like it just really struck me

1974
01:49:52,680 --> 01:49:56,479
Speaker 9: that the the juxtaposition between these two things that I

1975
01:49:56,560 --> 01:49:58,960
Speaker 9: have seen people have to quote unquote bug out or

1976
01:49:59,000 --> 01:50:02,160
Speaker 9: oh shit or whatever. I myself have had to leave

1977
01:50:02,200 --> 01:50:04,559
Speaker 9: a place where I was go to a refuge camp

1978
01:50:04,560 --> 01:50:08,360
Speaker 9: for a few days a few years ago, and I've

1979
01:50:08,520 --> 01:50:13,200
Speaker 9: never seen a situation where a folding assault right for

1980
01:50:13,400 --> 01:50:15,679
Speaker 9: would be that useful to me. And I have seen

1981
01:50:15,720 --> 01:50:17,560
Speaker 9: a lot of people who could really fucking use a

1982
01:50:17,600 --> 01:50:22,439
Speaker 9: sleeping bag or coat or a toy for their child

1983
01:50:22,439 --> 01:50:24,800
Speaker 9: because their child is crying, and bring any toys, you know,

1984
01:50:24,960 --> 01:50:28,280
Speaker 9: and lots of people don't have any preparedness stuff at all.

1985
01:50:28,479 --> 01:50:30,760
Speaker 9: That's fine, you know, we'll start somewhere, but like, if

1986
01:50:30,800 --> 01:50:33,280
Speaker 9: you're going to do this, I want you to do

1987
01:50:33,280 --> 01:50:34,680
Speaker 9: it in a way that might be useful to you.

1988
01:50:34,880 --> 01:50:37,759
Speaker 9: And so that is why I have asked Margaret Kiljoy

1989
01:50:37,840 --> 01:50:38,639
Speaker 9: to come and help me.

1990
01:50:39,640 --> 01:50:42,120
Speaker 4: And the right and the problem of course with the

1991
01:50:42,160 --> 01:50:44,479
Speaker 4: scenario that we discussed is that instead of having a

1992
01:50:44,520 --> 01:50:47,719
Speaker 4: folding ar, they should have a folding AK forty seven

1993
01:50:47,800 --> 01:50:49,759
Speaker 4: because then there's no need to break a buffert.

1994
01:50:50,479 --> 01:50:53,080
Speaker 9: Yeah that's okay, Yeah, yeah no, and you can scavenge

1995
01:50:53,120 --> 01:50:56,519
Speaker 9: ammunition from the Cubans. Yeah, I see what you're doing. Great, Yeah,

1996
01:50:56,600 --> 01:50:57,200
Speaker 9: yeah no.

1997
01:50:57,400 --> 01:51:00,920
Speaker 4: And although actually, if I was gonna deep into gun

1998
01:51:00,960 --> 01:51:02,759
Speaker 4: stuff and talk about how like people who are obsessed

1999
01:51:02,760 --> 01:51:04,599
Speaker 4: with AK forty sevens while living in the United States

2000
01:51:04,640 --> 01:51:07,920
Speaker 4: are also not doing preparedness right because anyway.

2001
01:51:07,840 --> 01:51:09,920
Speaker 9: Yeah yeah, and actually ak's break all the time. I

2002
01:51:09,920 --> 01:51:12,080
Speaker 9: have personally seen that happen, and you cannot, in fact,

2003
01:51:12,360 --> 01:51:13,360
Speaker 9: not maintain them at all.

2004
01:51:13,720 --> 01:51:16,599
Speaker 4: Yeah, and there's more parts available for a hares. But

2005
01:51:16,680 --> 01:51:19,200
Speaker 4: the point is that most of the time you don't

2006
01:51:19,240 --> 01:51:23,559
Speaker 4: need firearms for most crises. Many crises are made worse

2007
01:51:23,600 --> 01:51:25,760
Speaker 4: by having a firearm. And Okay, so, like a lot

2008
01:51:25,760 --> 01:51:28,240
Speaker 4: of your background is with refugee stuff, and you've had to,

2009
01:51:28,479 --> 01:51:31,000
Speaker 4: you know, escape to a refugee center, and you work

2010
01:51:31,040 --> 01:51:33,639
Speaker 4: in refugee situations all the time. One of my main

2011
01:51:33,680 --> 01:51:35,640
Speaker 4: backgrounds is that I lived out of a backpack for

2012
01:51:35,680 --> 01:51:38,040
Speaker 4: a long time when I was a crosspunk, right, I

2013
01:51:38,080 --> 01:51:41,160
Speaker 4: was a homeless hitchhiker who you know, hopped freight trains

2014
01:51:41,320 --> 01:51:43,880
Speaker 4: and slept under bridges and things like that. And I

2015
01:51:43,920 --> 01:51:45,600
Speaker 4: come from more of a position of privilege than a

2016
01:51:45,600 --> 01:51:47,040
Speaker 4: lot of people who do that. I chose to do

2017
01:51:47,080 --> 01:51:50,080
Speaker 4: it as part of an activism lifestyle and stuff, you know.

2018
01:51:50,560 --> 01:51:52,920
Speaker 4: And so I'm not trying to like get stolen valor here,

2019
01:51:52,920 --> 01:51:55,920
Speaker 4: but I spent a very long time living outside. And

2020
01:51:55,960 --> 01:51:58,800
Speaker 4: the people who live outside all the time, who have

2021
01:51:58,880 --> 01:52:02,599
Speaker 4: only a backpack know what goes in the backpack really well.

2022
01:52:03,080 --> 01:52:07,720
Speaker 4: And you don't see homeless people with guns, and it's

2023
01:52:07,720 --> 01:52:10,519
Speaker 4: not because they're not legally allowed to have them. People.

2024
01:52:10,600 --> 01:52:13,080
Speaker 4: I mean, well that's part of it in some situations, right,

2025
01:52:13,120 --> 01:52:14,960
Speaker 4: it's you know, you don't have a safe place of

2026
01:52:15,000 --> 01:52:18,000
Speaker 4: story and something. It is a lot more complicated, but

2027
01:52:18,160 --> 01:52:21,240
Speaker 4: like you're even talking about a group of people who

2028
01:52:21,280 --> 01:52:24,680
Speaker 4: often have to resort to violence to defend themselves and

2029
01:52:25,800 --> 01:52:28,639
Speaker 4: largely not using firearms to do it, because in most

2030
01:52:28,720 --> 01:52:33,240
Speaker 4: situations they're more trouble than they're worth. Because someone who's

2031
01:52:33,280 --> 01:52:35,240
Speaker 4: living outside is going to have to deal with cops

2032
01:52:35,240 --> 01:52:37,200
Speaker 4: all the time. Someone, And this is what you were

2033
01:52:37,240 --> 01:52:39,360
Speaker 4: talking about when when we were talking about getting ready

2034
01:52:39,360 --> 01:52:42,040
Speaker 4: for this episode. It's like, well, let's say you have

2035
01:52:42,160 --> 01:52:45,040
Speaker 4: your ear ar and you approach the border.

2036
01:52:45,840 --> 01:52:48,880
Speaker 9: Yeah, you're getting engaged really fast by like seventy five

2037
01:52:48,880 --> 01:52:51,080
Speaker 9: Border patrol guys who have been training their whole life

2038
01:52:51,120 --> 01:52:53,519
Speaker 9: for this. Not saying that they're particularly like a well

2039
01:52:53,560 --> 01:52:56,519
Speaker 9: trained or efficient, but they have been waiting for the

2040
01:52:56,600 --> 01:52:59,519
Speaker 9: one person with an assault rifle who they can fire

2041
01:52:59,600 --> 01:53:01,439
Speaker 9: at a very long time.

2042
01:53:01,760 --> 01:53:04,760
Speaker 4: Yeah. And the only purpose of having a firearm is

2043
01:53:04,800 --> 01:53:06,720
Speaker 4: if it makes you and the people that you care

2044
01:53:06,760 --> 01:53:08,639
Speaker 4: about more likely to survive.

2045
01:53:09,640 --> 01:53:12,639
Speaker 9: Yes, which is doesn't happen if the entire Border patrol

2046
01:53:12,680 --> 01:53:16,080
Speaker 9: is shooting at you, Right, that's bad.

2047
01:53:16,439 --> 01:53:18,960
Speaker 4: That's a worse time. Yeah. No, It's like it's like

2048
01:53:19,000 --> 01:53:23,040
Speaker 4: I always carried a legal knife, you know. Yeah, Like

2049
01:53:23,320 --> 01:53:26,200
Speaker 4: wherever I was, I have a legal length knife and

2050
01:53:26,240 --> 01:53:29,519
Speaker 4: that was fine. Yeah EF fishing.

2051
01:53:29,960 --> 01:53:32,760
Speaker 9: Yeah, look into knife flaws though before you before, like

2052
01:53:32,800 --> 01:53:35,479
Speaker 9: a knife flows in America almost as complicated as gun laws.

2053
01:53:35,560 --> 01:53:39,040
Speaker 4: And we live in California. You can have a cane sword, yeah.

2054
01:53:38,960 --> 01:53:41,120
Speaker 9: That's right, but I can open carry a large machete

2055
01:53:41,160 --> 01:53:42,519
Speaker 9: on my belt as long as I don't attempt to

2056
01:53:42,520 --> 01:53:43,000
Speaker 9: conceal it.

2057
01:53:43,600 --> 01:53:47,360
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, regularly. I used to hitchhike with a machete.

2058
01:53:47,400 --> 01:53:50,400
Speaker 9: So yeah, yeah, yeah, I like there were times that

2059
01:53:50,439 --> 01:53:52,080
Speaker 9: I've been doing stuff with a machete.

2060
01:53:52,200 --> 01:53:54,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly, I needed. I was kind of a campaign

2061
01:53:54,439 --> 01:53:55,760
Speaker 4: I did actually once get a.

2062
01:53:56,000 --> 01:53:58,000
Speaker 9: I think it's a part ranger of someone like I

2063
01:53:58,080 --> 01:54:00,000
Speaker 9: was coming in from free diving and when you freedom

2064
01:54:00,080 --> 01:54:00,760
Speaker 9: if you always have a.

2065
01:54:00,800 --> 01:54:02,680
Speaker 4: Knife, because I've experienced this.

2066
01:54:02,760 --> 01:54:05,000
Speaker 9: Actually when you dive and you get tangled in fishing

2067
01:54:05,040 --> 01:54:07,920
Speaker 9: nets and your breathold diving.

2068
01:54:08,280 --> 01:54:09,720
Speaker 4: You need to get out so you don't die.

2069
01:54:09,800 --> 01:54:11,960
Speaker 9: Yeah, you have a knife and you cut yourself out.

2070
01:54:12,640 --> 01:54:14,760
Speaker 9: You're supposed to have that knife. So yes, yes, I'm

2071
01:54:14,760 --> 01:54:17,880
Speaker 9: supposed to have that knife. So yeah, you can open

2072
01:54:17,960 --> 01:54:20,120
Speaker 9: carry a knife. It just depends on the county. You're

2073
01:54:20,120 --> 01:54:22,599
Speaker 9: in a California, but in San Diego County, Okay.

2074
01:54:22,640 --> 01:54:25,000
Speaker 4: So to talk about bugout bags though, yes, what we

2075
01:54:25,120 --> 01:54:27,479
Speaker 4: do want them for is going to be different person

2076
01:54:27,520 --> 01:54:31,559
Speaker 4: a person. And what I recommend that any preparedness minded

2077
01:54:31,600 --> 01:54:35,320
Speaker 4: person or any person I hope more people become preparedness minded,

2078
01:54:35,960 --> 01:54:38,640
Speaker 4: is to think about the crises that could happen that

2079
01:54:38,680 --> 01:54:41,080
Speaker 4: are likely, and think about what you would want and

2080
01:54:41,080 --> 01:54:43,480
Speaker 4: how you would deal with them. And my argument up

2081
01:54:43,480 --> 01:54:46,840
Speaker 4: front is that this can reduce anxiety if you do

2082
01:54:46,880 --> 01:54:50,200
Speaker 4: it right, if you fixate on these things forever. Like

2083
01:54:50,240 --> 01:54:52,200
Speaker 4: a lot of people don't engage withparedness because they don't

2084
01:54:52,200 --> 01:54:53,560
Speaker 4: want to be anxious about it. They don't want to

2085
01:54:53,560 --> 01:54:54,640
Speaker 4: think about a forest fire.

2086
01:54:54,920 --> 01:54:55,160
Speaker 2: Right.

2087
01:54:56,560 --> 01:54:58,680
Speaker 4: But if you I've said this before, maybe even on

2088
01:54:58,720 --> 01:55:00,280
Speaker 4: this show, I'm not sure. It was like when I

2089
01:55:00,360 --> 01:55:02,600
Speaker 4: lived in a cabin really in the woods, like I

2090
01:55:02,600 --> 01:55:04,240
Speaker 4: currently live in a house in the woods, but there's

2091
01:55:04,240 --> 01:55:06,600
Speaker 4: like a little bit of buffer. But I, you know,

2092
01:55:06,680 --> 01:55:09,040
Speaker 4: built a twelve by twelve cabin and like in that,

2093
01:55:09,240 --> 01:55:11,440
Speaker 4: I cut down two small trees and built a cabin, right,

2094
01:55:11,880 --> 01:55:14,840
Speaker 4: And so I worried about forest fire, and so I

2095
01:55:15,720 --> 01:55:19,400
Speaker 4: thought about what to do, which was make sure that

2096
01:55:19,440 --> 01:55:21,560
Speaker 4: I always had like you know, some sort of radio

2097
01:55:21,680 --> 01:55:25,880
Speaker 4: and or sell communication available to me, keep a bag

2098
01:55:26,000 --> 01:55:28,400
Speaker 4: ready with all the stuff I need, keep make sure

2099
01:55:28,400 --> 01:55:30,520
Speaker 4: that my car is half a tank of gas. And

2100
01:55:30,560 --> 01:55:33,000
Speaker 4: that's it. That's all I was going to do to prepare.

2101
01:55:33,080 --> 01:55:35,880
Speaker 4: There's more you can do. That's all I was going

2102
01:55:35,920 --> 01:55:39,320
Speaker 4: to do, so I stopped worrying about forest fire, and

2103
01:55:40,560 --> 01:55:43,400
Speaker 4: so I think, done right, a go bag or a

2104
01:55:43,400 --> 01:55:46,560
Speaker 4: bug out bag or preparedness in general can reduce our anxiety.

2105
01:55:46,880 --> 01:55:49,040
Speaker 4: And the thing that I think people get wrong is

2106
01:55:49,080 --> 01:55:54,080
Speaker 4: that for most people, moving over land by yourself and

2107
01:55:54,120 --> 01:56:01,800
Speaker 4: surviving in nature is not a likely reci response to crisis. Yes,

2108
01:56:02,560 --> 01:56:04,880
Speaker 4: there are some times where that will be true, and

2109
01:56:04,960 --> 01:56:06,960
Speaker 4: even like you're talking about, like working at you know,

2110
01:56:06,960 --> 01:56:08,400
Speaker 4: in the border, where people are having to like build

2111
01:56:08,440 --> 01:56:10,880
Speaker 4: shelters and things like that. But for most people, I

2112
01:56:10,880 --> 01:56:13,080
Speaker 4: don't even say put a sleeping bag in your go

2113
01:56:13,120 --> 01:56:16,440
Speaker 4: bag because size might be more important than that. Yeah,

2114
01:56:16,720 --> 01:56:19,480
Speaker 4: having other warm stuff and emergency blankets and things like that,

2115
01:56:19,520 --> 01:56:24,680
Speaker 4: I do absolutely advocate, you know, But then again, I

2116
01:56:24,800 --> 01:56:26,760
Speaker 4: often make sure that I have a sleeping bag around

2117
01:56:26,760 --> 01:56:28,280
Speaker 4: because I do live in the middle of the woods,

2118
01:56:28,320 --> 01:56:29,880
Speaker 4: and if my cars were broken and there was a

2119
01:56:29,880 --> 01:56:33,240
Speaker 4: bad thing, I would have to go over land ten

2120
01:56:33,320 --> 01:56:34,400
Speaker 4: miles to get anywhere.

2121
01:56:34,560 --> 01:56:37,080
Speaker 9: You know, Yeah, because RS situation is not the same

2122
01:56:37,120 --> 01:56:38,640
Speaker 9: as everything, and I think that's right.

2123
01:56:38,720 --> 01:56:42,160
Speaker 4: But for most people, I advocate that you think about

2124
01:56:42,160 --> 01:56:45,200
Speaker 4: your bug out bag as your get out of town

2125
01:56:45,240 --> 01:56:47,640
Speaker 4: for a weekend bag. It is the you live in

2126
01:56:47,640 --> 01:56:51,040
Speaker 4: a hurricane area. It is a blizzard's coming. It is

2127
01:56:51,120 --> 01:56:53,640
Speaker 4: your stalker X is in town and you don't want

2128
01:56:53,680 --> 01:56:56,840
Speaker 4: to be around. It is a I decided all of

2129
01:56:56,840 --> 01:56:58,760
Speaker 4: a sudden, I'm going to go visit my family and

2130
01:56:58,800 --> 01:57:02,680
Speaker 4: I don't want to pack. You know, it is just

2131
01:57:02,760 --> 01:57:07,720
Speaker 4: a it's you're more likely to spend a night in

2132
01:57:07,760 --> 01:57:10,959
Speaker 4: your car on the road somewhere, like in a blizzard.

2133
01:57:11,040 --> 01:57:14,160
Speaker 4: Let's say, you know, so, what do you need to

2134
01:57:14,320 --> 01:57:16,880
Speaker 4: spend the night in the car in your car in

2135
01:57:16,920 --> 01:57:19,800
Speaker 4: the snow, And the answer is not that much. You

2136
01:57:19,840 --> 01:57:23,840
Speaker 4: need water and you need warmth. Food is like great, right,

2137
01:57:24,280 --> 01:57:26,000
Speaker 4: yeah we can kind of. I mean, you should have

2138
01:57:26,040 --> 01:57:28,200
Speaker 4: a little bit of snacks to so you why not

2139
01:57:28,280 --> 01:57:29,160
Speaker 4: have snacks around?

2140
01:57:29,480 --> 01:57:32,040
Speaker 9: Yeah, it's in a stressful situation, having something to eat,

2141
01:57:32,080 --> 01:57:33,720
Speaker 9: it helps, it calms you down, It helps you deal

2142
01:57:33,800 --> 01:57:34,720
Speaker 9: with that stress.

2143
01:57:35,160 --> 01:57:38,840
Speaker 4: Yeah. And one of the other things that we were

2144
01:57:38,840 --> 01:57:42,000
Speaker 4: talking about is we're talking about how you know, Okay,

2145
01:57:42,000 --> 01:57:46,400
Speaker 4: so like the basic level that I advocate, I advocate

2146
01:57:46,440 --> 01:57:48,720
Speaker 4: actually even more than having like your your bug out

2147
01:57:48,720 --> 01:57:52,400
Speaker 4: bag is having a smaller pouch that is your emergency bag,

2148
01:57:52,920 --> 01:57:55,440
Speaker 4: and that goes into whatever other backpack or purse or

2149
01:57:55,480 --> 01:57:57,600
Speaker 4: anything else you're carrying around. And I actually like make

2150
01:57:57,640 --> 01:58:01,400
Speaker 4: these and distribute them to my friends and stuff. Oh

2151
01:58:01,400 --> 01:58:04,000
Speaker 4: here's a fun tip. If you're the prepper in your

2152
01:58:04,040 --> 01:58:07,120
Speaker 4: family or friend group when it comes time to holiday presence,

2153
01:58:07,600 --> 01:58:10,440
Speaker 4: if you give them preparedness stuff that has to be

2154
01:58:10,480 --> 01:58:13,880
Speaker 4: on top of whatever else you give them. I guess

2155
01:58:13,960 --> 01:58:17,720
Speaker 4: you can't just give them your weird niche stuff. Yeah,

2156
01:58:17,760 --> 01:58:19,680
Speaker 4: like you have to give them what they want, as

2157
01:58:19,720 --> 01:58:21,480
Speaker 4: well as the wind up radio, you know.

2158
01:58:21,680 --> 01:58:25,600
Speaker 9: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's fair if sad and you can't

2159
01:58:25,640 --> 01:58:29,160
Speaker 9: just recycle gear that you wanted to, try to just

2160
01:58:29,200 --> 01:58:30,600
Speaker 9: give it to your aunt till sent thing.

2161
01:58:31,160 --> 01:58:33,520
Speaker 4: I mean you can you just also give other stuff.

2162
01:58:33,520 --> 01:58:37,880
Speaker 9: You can just each a bad nissoor nephew or whatever. Yeah,

2163
01:58:38,160 --> 01:58:41,120
Speaker 9: non binary, try sibling.

2164
01:58:41,680 --> 01:58:45,560
Speaker 4: So. I say that these emergency kits are three different things.

2165
01:58:45,640 --> 01:58:48,520
Speaker 4: They are a hygiene kit, because like the thing that

2166
01:58:48,560 --> 01:58:51,120
Speaker 4: I need the most often when I'm suddenly didn't prepare

2167
01:58:51,120 --> 01:58:53,480
Speaker 4: and I'm suddenly somewhere and I'm staying out late is

2168
01:58:53,520 --> 01:58:57,040
Speaker 4: like a folding toothbrush, right, or like some wet wipes

2169
01:58:57,080 --> 01:59:00,840
Speaker 4: in a packet, or you know, I don't know, like

2170
01:59:01,240 --> 01:59:02,400
Speaker 4: nail clippers or something.

2171
01:59:02,840 --> 01:59:05,760
Speaker 9: Yeah, like if you I'm a person who used insulin, right,

2172
01:59:05,800 --> 01:59:07,760
Speaker 9: So like I have a lot of bags insulin in

2173
01:59:07,800 --> 01:59:10,440
Speaker 9: and there it's in most of my bags because I'm

2174
01:59:10,480 --> 01:59:11,640
Speaker 9: up Shake Creek without it.

2175
01:59:11,960 --> 01:59:13,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, it is better to have it, you know. Yeah,

2176
01:59:13,960 --> 01:59:15,800
Speaker 4: And I'm very lucky.

2177
01:59:15,520 --> 01:59:17,400
Speaker 9: To have access to inculin and even have some spend

2178
01:59:17,440 --> 01:59:20,320
Speaker 9: what everyone does, because pharmaceutical industry is terrible.

2179
01:59:20,760 --> 01:59:22,640
Speaker 4: It is. Yeah, that's actually one of the hardest things

2180
01:59:22,760 --> 01:59:26,400
Speaker 4: when talking to people about preparedness is like getting more

2181
01:59:26,560 --> 01:59:29,440
Speaker 4: of your medication is very complicated, and a lot of

2182
01:59:29,440 --> 01:59:33,680
Speaker 4: the methods that people should consider are not legal, and

2183
01:59:33,720 --> 01:59:34,960
Speaker 4: I'm not going to advocate them.

2184
01:59:35,200 --> 01:59:36,720
Speaker 9: It is legal to buy medicine, I think for your

2185
01:59:36,720 --> 01:59:38,960
Speaker 9: own personal usage in countries that are not the United

2186
01:59:39,000 --> 01:59:40,480
Speaker 9: States when you're traveling there anyway.

2187
01:59:40,800 --> 01:59:44,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, that makes sense. Okay, So you want hygiene, you

2188
01:59:44,440 --> 01:59:46,480
Speaker 4: want a basic first aid kit, like kind of on

2189
01:59:46,520 --> 01:59:49,640
Speaker 4: the like booboo kit level, right, which is as if

2190
01:59:49,640 --> 01:59:52,120
Speaker 4: it's like not important, but actually, like you just don't

2191
01:59:52,120 --> 01:59:54,360
Speaker 4: want Infections can get real bad. So you just want

2192
01:59:54,400 --> 01:59:56,480
Speaker 4: to make sure that you have the ability to clean

2193
01:59:56,520 --> 02:00:00,440
Speaker 4: a small wound and treat it right and uh, what

2194
02:00:00,640 --> 02:00:04,240
Speaker 4: is it. It's hygiene, it's medical, and then it's survival stuff.

2195
02:00:04,520 --> 02:00:07,320
Speaker 4: And for me, this is just like tiniest amounts of

2196
02:00:08,160 --> 02:00:10,440
Speaker 4: One of the cool things about preparedness is that the

2197
02:00:10,480 --> 02:00:13,080
Speaker 4: little first things you do are so much more likely

2198
02:00:13,080 --> 02:00:16,280
Speaker 4: to be useful than the complicated things later. Right, Like

2199
02:00:17,080 --> 02:00:21,920
Speaker 4: having a big lighter is so much more likely to

2200
02:00:21,920 --> 02:00:25,680
Speaker 4: be useful than flint and steel and fire starter and

2201
02:00:25,720 --> 02:00:27,160
Speaker 4: all of the bells and whistles.

2202
02:00:27,240 --> 02:00:29,000
Speaker 9: Yeah, do you left my flint steel? But you're right,

2203
02:00:29,040 --> 02:00:32,760
Speaker 9: it is, Oh, I exponentially more useful. Like I've been

2204
02:00:33,120 --> 02:00:35,040
Speaker 9: so like I've been at the border a week, right,

2205
02:00:35,080 --> 02:00:38,040
Speaker 9: people are called it's very windy. I have a flint

2206
02:00:38,080 --> 02:00:40,240
Speaker 9: steel in my truck. I have used that zero times.

2207
02:00:40,480 --> 02:00:42,800
Speaker 9: I have gone through an entire eight pack of big lighters.

2208
02:00:42,840 --> 02:00:47,960
Speaker 9: I've refilled my Zippo twice, given away all my lighters. Yeah,

2209
02:00:48,080 --> 02:00:51,880
Speaker 9: because yeah, when your code in fact, you're not inclined

2210
02:00:51,960 --> 02:00:54,240
Speaker 9: to start shaving little pieces off a large metal rod.

2211
02:00:54,600 --> 02:00:58,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly, And like I keep little bits of fire

2212
02:00:58,600 --> 02:01:01,240
Speaker 4: starter and things like that in the emergency kits. Basically,

2213
02:01:01,320 --> 02:01:04,040
Speaker 4: anything that is like light and cheap and useful goes

2214
02:01:04,080 --> 02:01:06,760
Speaker 4: into these kids. For me, you know, but the stuff

2215
02:01:06,760 --> 02:01:09,560
Speaker 4: that I prioritize is stuff like the first lighter is

2216
02:01:09,600 --> 02:01:13,480
Speaker 4: more useful than the second one, you know. Yeah, yeah, Margaret.

2217
02:01:13,520 --> 02:01:16,080
Speaker 9: Do you know what's probably not light, certainly not cheap

2218
02:01:16,200 --> 02:01:19,600
Speaker 9: and rarely useful gold?

2219
02:01:19,880 --> 02:01:20,080
Speaker 4: Gold.

2220
02:01:20,160 --> 02:01:23,080
Speaker 9: That's right yet gold, you've known it. But let's hear

2221
02:01:23,720 --> 02:01:28,839
Speaker 9: about gold. All right, we're back. That was an apercentth

2222
02:01:28,880 --> 02:01:31,120
Speaker 9: that you don't need. But Margaret was about to pivot,

2223
02:01:31,120 --> 02:01:32,840
Speaker 9: I think, to telling you some more things that you

2224
02:01:32,880 --> 02:01:35,360
Speaker 9: do need, right, So.

2225
02:01:35,320 --> 02:01:38,840
Speaker 4: Go ahead, Margaret. Okay, So tiny little emergency kit. You

2226
02:01:38,880 --> 02:01:41,480
Speaker 4: just put it in everything, and it's just like it's

2227
02:01:41,520 --> 02:01:43,640
Speaker 4: always useful, and it's like everyone I give these two

2228
02:01:43,760 --> 02:01:45,560
Speaker 4: is always a little bit like, oh thanks, And then

2229
02:01:45,560 --> 02:01:47,840
Speaker 4: about a year later they're like, oh I was at

2230
02:01:47,880 --> 02:01:51,960
Speaker 4: this protest and someone cut themselves or just some really minor,

2231
02:01:52,040 --> 02:01:54,280
Speaker 4: strange random thing. They're like, it always comes up that

2232
02:01:54,280 --> 02:01:56,800
Speaker 4: it's really useful that I have this tiny little flashlight

2233
02:01:56,880 --> 02:02:02,160
Speaker 4: in a bag always all right, yeah, your and and okay,

2234
02:02:02,200 --> 02:02:05,800
Speaker 4: so there's that. And then if you want, you could

2235
02:02:05,880 --> 02:02:08,560
Speaker 4: have a designated bug out bag and you keep it

2236
02:02:08,600 --> 02:02:10,640
Speaker 4: in the front closet or you keep it under your bed,

2237
02:02:10,760 --> 02:02:12,760
Speaker 4: or you keep it wherever is like kind of useful

2238
02:02:12,760 --> 02:02:14,720
Speaker 4: to you. Some people might keep them in their vehicles.

2239
02:02:14,720 --> 02:02:16,839
Speaker 4: That really depends on where you live. I wouldn't necessarily

2240
02:02:16,840 --> 02:02:18,800
Speaker 4: advocate it in a lot of places because vehicles are

2241
02:02:18,840 --> 02:02:22,160
Speaker 4: more broken into and also have more temperature fluctuations, and

2242
02:02:22,200 --> 02:02:25,080
Speaker 4: things like advil and like over the counter medications aren't

2243
02:02:25,120 --> 02:02:30,480
Speaker 4: like they don't do so great with like wild temperature fluctuations. Okay,

2244
02:02:30,560 --> 02:02:33,560
Speaker 4: so you get yourself a bag, and what kind of

2245
02:02:33,600 --> 02:02:36,160
Speaker 4: bag really depends on what you're talking about. Like we

2246
02:02:36,280 --> 02:02:38,960
Speaker 4: were showing each other our bags before it.

2247
02:02:39,480 --> 02:02:43,120
Speaker 9: Yeah, that's what a little insight into our interactions off mic.

2248
02:02:43,640 --> 02:02:47,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, and uh, and I'll describe mine, then you describe yours.

2249
02:02:47,080 --> 02:02:50,240
Speaker 4: I'll and I'll describe mine. You describe yours, and then

2250
02:02:50,280 --> 02:02:51,560
Speaker 4: say why you have it, and then I'll say why

2251
02:02:51,560 --> 02:02:54,640
Speaker 4: I have mine? Okay, you got this. I basically have

2252
02:02:54,800 --> 02:02:58,760
Speaker 4: like a regular day pack computer bag. It just a

2253
02:02:58,920 --> 02:03:02,160
Speaker 4: there's no waste bell, it's just it's designed hole the laptop.

2254
02:03:02,480 --> 02:03:06,200
Speaker 4: That's my bug out bag. What I have is a mystery.

2255
02:03:07,200 --> 02:03:08,640
Speaker 4: It's a thirty two liter bag.

2256
02:03:09,360 --> 02:03:11,680
Speaker 9: It's called a scree thirty two For those of you

2257
02:03:11,680 --> 02:03:14,600
Speaker 9: who want to be just like me, and I have

2258
02:03:14,640 --> 02:03:17,920
Speaker 9: it because I really like the carriage system. Mystery round

2259
02:03:18,040 --> 02:03:20,840
Speaker 9: Us is just like a yoke, so it carries like

2260
02:03:20,880 --> 02:03:22,560
Speaker 9: a frame backpack, but it isn't big and bulky.

2261
02:03:22,920 --> 02:03:24,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, and that's cool.

2262
02:03:24,640 --> 02:03:26,400
Speaker 9: I've used it, Like I think I've used this bag

2263
02:03:26,440 --> 02:03:28,280
Speaker 9: on every continent in the world apart from the Antarctic.

2264
02:03:28,360 --> 02:03:29,360
Speaker 4: Like, it's just a.

2265
02:03:29,240 --> 02:03:31,520
Speaker 9: Bag that I can put stuff in that is a

2266
02:03:31,600 --> 02:03:35,000
Speaker 9: size that it's not obnoxious, and it works for me

2267
02:03:35,200 --> 02:03:37,920
Speaker 9: for almost everything. I day hike with it, I go

2268
02:03:38,040 --> 02:03:39,640
Speaker 9: on urban nights with it. I use it as my

2269
02:03:39,680 --> 02:03:43,280
Speaker 9: carry on on the plane. Yeah, it's just a useful

2270
02:03:43,320 --> 02:03:47,080
Speaker 9: bag that is not covered in molly and multi caam

2271
02:03:47,200 --> 02:03:50,520
Speaker 9: and such things. Yeah, and I know it works for me,

2272
02:03:50,640 --> 02:03:53,040
Speaker 9: Like I've used it for a long time, and I

2273
02:03:53,080 --> 02:03:55,360
Speaker 9: know that it's suitable for my body with heavyweights.

2274
02:03:55,680 --> 02:03:59,280
Speaker 4: Yeah no, And like I love I love bags, and

2275
02:03:59,320 --> 02:04:01,360
Speaker 4: I will happily geek out about bags, and like that

2276
02:04:01,360 --> 02:04:03,680
Speaker 4: bag is a me too. It's pretty nice. And this

2277
02:04:03,760 --> 02:04:06,360
Speaker 4: is like my least favorite backpack, right, I have like

2278
02:04:06,400 --> 02:04:08,800
Speaker 4: other backpacks, Like my day hiking bag is like a

2279
02:04:08,800 --> 02:04:12,600
Speaker 4: twenty five leter you know, actually has a waste strap.

2280
02:04:12,600 --> 02:04:15,080
Speaker 4: And I like really like it, but I keep it

2281
02:04:15,160 --> 02:04:18,440
Speaker 4: packed with my day hiking stuff, you know, And so

2282
02:04:19,360 --> 02:04:24,200
Speaker 4: you do a lot of outdoor sports, yes, yeah, yeah,

2283
02:04:24,240 --> 02:04:27,640
Speaker 4: and so it really easily doubles as all of that, right.

2284
02:04:28,040 --> 02:04:31,880
Speaker 9: Yeah, exactly, Like I'm you know, most weekends, you know,

2285
02:04:32,080 --> 02:04:33,640
Speaker 9: I try and sleep outside at least.

2286
02:04:33,440 --> 02:04:34,040
Speaker 4: Once a month.

2287
02:04:34,520 --> 02:04:36,880
Speaker 9: So yeah, you know, I just sort of have that

2288
02:04:36,960 --> 02:04:39,280
Speaker 9: stuff anyway, because it's part of my day to day.

2289
02:04:39,160 --> 02:04:43,520
Speaker 4: Life and mine is designed from the period of my

2290
02:04:43,600 --> 02:04:47,680
Speaker 4: life where I basically would go to whatever anarchist coffee

2291
02:04:47,680 --> 02:04:49,520
Speaker 4: shop was in whatever town and just hang out there

2292
02:04:49,520 --> 02:04:52,600
Speaker 4: and work all day, right yeah, and so like and

2293
02:04:52,680 --> 02:04:54,200
Speaker 4: I was like, and I used to have a bug

2294
02:04:54,200 --> 02:04:56,360
Speaker 4: out bag that was like a little bit bigger. It

2295
02:04:56,440 --> 02:04:58,280
Speaker 4: was like a tactical bag. It was a three day

2296
02:04:58,280 --> 02:05:01,040
Speaker 4: assault pack, you know, and I like perfect, And to

2297
02:05:01,040 --> 02:05:02,560
Speaker 4: be fair, I lived in a cabin in the woods

2298
02:05:02,600 --> 02:05:05,480
Speaker 4: and it was twenty twenty in the odds of major

2299
02:05:05,920 --> 02:05:10,800
Speaker 4: military crisis were much higher, and you know, but like,

2300
02:05:10,880 --> 02:05:12,960
Speaker 4: but right now, I'm just like, this is my bag

2301
02:05:13,160 --> 02:05:16,080
Speaker 4: that comes with me when I go to my friend's

2302
02:05:16,120 --> 02:05:18,920
Speaker 4: house or when I go see my family. And because

2303
02:05:18,960 --> 02:05:21,800
Speaker 4: it's the important thing is that you have the bag

2304
02:05:21,840 --> 02:05:25,480
Speaker 4: that is available, like it. The piece of gear that

2305
02:05:25,560 --> 02:05:27,640
Speaker 4: you have is always better than the piece of gear

2306
02:05:27,680 --> 02:05:28,160
Speaker 4: you don't have.

2307
02:05:28,320 --> 02:05:30,400
Speaker 9: Yeah, yeah, yeah, you don't have to save up two

2308
02:05:30,480 --> 02:05:32,760
Speaker 9: hundred bucks for you know, a mystery round you and

2309
02:05:32,760 --> 02:05:33,320
Speaker 9: I'll spray bag.

2310
02:05:33,720 --> 02:05:36,840
Speaker 4: Right, But if your thing is being outside all the time,

2311
02:05:37,360 --> 02:05:42,640
Speaker 4: like you know, you should have those things, right yeah,

2312
02:05:42,920 --> 02:05:47,080
Speaker 4: And okay, so what I put in my the Everyone's

2313
02:05:47,120 --> 02:05:49,520
Speaker 4: gonna have really different stuff in their bug out bag.

2314
02:05:49,640 --> 02:05:51,840
Speaker 4: But some of the lists that I have as my

2315
02:05:52,000 --> 02:05:55,000
Speaker 4: like kind of like core of it that I would

2316
02:05:55,080 --> 02:05:58,640
Speaker 4: recommend that most people would want to have some version of.

2317
02:05:59,160 --> 02:06:00,800
Speaker 4: And you should add things and we could talk about

2318
02:06:00,800 --> 02:06:04,760
Speaker 4: these things. Your passport and print copies of any essential

2319
02:06:04,840 --> 02:06:08,720
Speaker 4: records such as your animal's rabies vaccine card and medication

2320
02:06:09,360 --> 02:06:12,120
Speaker 4: and things like that. This is the stuff to help

2321
02:06:12,160 --> 02:06:15,320
Speaker 4: you ease bureaucracy as you move through the world. This

2322
02:06:15,520 --> 02:06:17,120
Speaker 4: is actually a thing you need to be careful with

2323
02:06:17,240 --> 02:06:19,280
Speaker 4: because then sometimes you don't want to bring your passport

2324
02:06:19,320 --> 02:06:21,200
Speaker 4: everywhere you go, right, you don't want to lose.

2325
02:06:21,040 --> 02:06:21,680
Speaker 3: It, you know.

2326
02:06:22,920 --> 02:06:24,840
Speaker 4: But if it's your bug out bag that's waiting for

2327
02:06:24,920 --> 02:06:27,200
Speaker 4: you in case of an emergency, I think that's a

2328
02:06:27,280 --> 02:06:30,080
Speaker 4: decent place to keep it. Yes, I agree. You want

2329
02:06:30,120 --> 02:06:33,280
Speaker 4: an encrypted USB stick with copies of all these important

2330
02:06:33,320 --> 02:06:36,560
Speaker 4: documents such as your driver's license, your passport, house and

2331
02:06:36,680 --> 02:06:40,160
Speaker 4: vehicle titles or rental agreements, insurance information, contact information for

2332
02:06:40,240 --> 02:06:43,800
Speaker 4: family and friends, vaccination records for your animals, and the like.

2333
02:06:43,880 --> 02:06:47,400
Speaker 4: It clearly shows that I have an animal and not kids.

2334
02:06:47,440 --> 02:06:49,840
Speaker 4: I'm sure there's other stuff that you would Yeah.

2335
02:06:49,960 --> 02:06:52,400
Speaker 9: I mean, this is just making me think of I

2336
02:06:52,880 --> 02:06:55,600
Speaker 9: ran into a guy the other day who had come

2337
02:06:55,640 --> 02:06:58,400
Speaker 9: to the US with his dog or a patrol wouldn't

2338
02:06:58,400 --> 02:07:02,520
Speaker 9: process him along his dog, so volunteers kind of looked

2339
02:07:02,560 --> 02:07:04,720
Speaker 9: after his dog while he was protested and then returned

2340
02:07:04,760 --> 02:07:07,040
Speaker 9: to his dog to him. Yeah, but now he's going

2341
02:07:07,120 --> 02:07:10,240
Speaker 9: to have to go through the process of certifying the

2342
02:07:10,360 --> 02:07:11,520
Speaker 9: dog's vaccinations.

2343
02:07:11,600 --> 02:07:13,200
Speaker 4: Maybe the dog will have to get them again.

2344
02:07:13,800 --> 02:07:15,640
Speaker 9: Luckily, he and the dog are on a road trip

2345
02:07:15,720 --> 02:07:18,160
Speaker 9: to their final home with the place where they want

2346
02:07:18,160 --> 02:07:20,040
Speaker 9: to live, where they're meeting up with friends and families,

2347
02:07:20,040 --> 02:07:22,320
Speaker 9: so that they're having a great trip across the country

2348
02:07:22,400 --> 02:07:26,920
Speaker 9: right now. Like, yeah, that just having easing that transition

2349
02:07:27,000 --> 02:07:29,400
Speaker 9: through bureaucracy by having those documents to hand, I'm sure

2350
02:07:29,440 --> 02:07:30,120
Speaker 9: would have been great.

2351
02:07:30,640 --> 02:07:33,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, and like, Honestly, the more I read about people

2352
02:07:33,200 --> 02:07:35,880
Speaker 4: dealing with refugee crisis and like, oh, I don't know

2353
02:07:36,040 --> 02:07:40,560
Speaker 4: the right to return various places, the more you can

2354
02:07:40,680 --> 02:07:43,080
Speaker 4: prove like the ownership of the stuff you own and

2355
02:07:43,160 --> 02:07:47,320
Speaker 4: things like that. Yes, yeah, it can be very easy

2356
02:07:47,520 --> 02:07:50,520
Speaker 4: to become like.

2357
02:07:51,440 --> 02:07:53,720
Speaker 9: I understand that lots of this bureocracy exists to make

2358
02:07:53,760 --> 02:07:56,680
Speaker 9: people legible and therefore taxable by the state. Right, if

2359
02:07:56,680 --> 02:07:59,440
Speaker 9: we're talking from an anarchist perspective, I understand why it exists,

2360
02:08:00,160 --> 02:08:02,880
Speaker 9: James Scott a lot recently. If that fair enough there,

2361
02:08:03,520 --> 02:08:08,600
Speaker 9: but I in a scenario where the state exists, which

2362
02:08:08,640 --> 02:08:11,320
Speaker 9: is the one we are in, then there are advantages

2363
02:08:11,400 --> 02:08:14,720
Speaker 9: to being legible and understendable by the state, and certain

2364
02:08:14,760 --> 02:08:17,480
Speaker 9: disadvantages to being eligible to the state when you're trying

2365
02:08:17,520 --> 02:08:18,440
Speaker 9: to get your house back.

2366
02:08:19,240 --> 02:08:21,840
Speaker 4: And even like again my time as a as a

2367
02:08:21,920 --> 02:08:26,840
Speaker 4: krusty traveler my twenties and into my thirties, the single

2368
02:08:27,000 --> 02:08:30,720
Speaker 4: most useful thing that I carried was my driver's license

2369
02:08:30,760 --> 02:08:33,320
Speaker 4: without warrants, because I used to have my ID run

2370
02:08:33,360 --> 02:08:36,840
Speaker 4: every single day. Because actually it's actually part of the

2371
02:08:36,920 --> 02:08:39,480
Speaker 4: reason I have a stranger version to carrying a hiking

2372
02:08:39,560 --> 02:08:44,480
Speaker 4: style backpack around often is because I learned when you

2373
02:08:45,000 --> 02:08:47,800
Speaker 4: look like a punk and you have a travel like

2374
02:08:47,880 --> 02:08:53,920
Speaker 4: a hiking backpack, you are now the cops main target. Yes, yeah,

2375
02:08:54,040 --> 02:08:56,680
Speaker 4: yeah yeah, and so like whereas when I have like

2376
02:08:56,760 --> 02:08:59,320
Speaker 4: a computer bag, I'm not the cops main target, and

2377
02:08:59,360 --> 02:09:04,240
Speaker 4: that makes my life fasier, you know. Okay, small amounts

2378
02:09:04,240 --> 02:09:06,680
Speaker 4: of emergency food, such as protein bars that you want

2379
02:09:06,680 --> 02:09:09,120
Speaker 4: to like, swap out every couple of months. I recommend

2380
02:09:09,440 --> 02:09:12,200
Speaker 4: putting in the ones that you don't like because otherwise

2381
02:09:12,200 --> 02:09:14,720
Speaker 4: you'll eat them, because otherwise you'll be like, oh, I

2382
02:09:14,760 --> 02:09:16,720
Speaker 4: could go tasty snack.

2383
02:09:17,040 --> 02:09:19,880
Speaker 9: Yeah, yeah, this is sorry. Just before we recorded a

2384
02:09:20,120 --> 02:09:22,120
Speaker 9: bar from this bag that I've been showing you.

2385
02:09:22,680 --> 02:09:23,760
Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah.

2386
02:09:24,440 --> 02:09:27,120
Speaker 9: There's a product called a Humanitarian Daily Ration, which is

2387
02:09:27,800 --> 02:09:28,920
Speaker 9: a vegan emory.

2388
02:09:28,680 --> 02:09:31,880
Speaker 4: That they give to refugees. Oh wow, yeah, there's great.

2389
02:09:32,200 --> 02:09:33,080
Speaker 4: Everyone can eat them.

2390
02:09:33,480 --> 02:09:35,080
Speaker 9: Yeah, They're very good to have, and I have those

2391
02:09:35,120 --> 02:09:37,560
Speaker 9: for emergency food because if one can eat them, ready,

2392
02:09:37,600 --> 02:09:38,920
Speaker 9: do I feel like I want to eat them?

2393
02:09:39,280 --> 02:09:43,240
Speaker 4: So yeah, I've been recently keeping I haven't eaten one yet.

2394
02:09:43,240 --> 02:09:46,640
Speaker 4: I've been keeping these flavorless emergency ration bars, like the

2395
02:09:46,840 --> 02:09:50,160
Speaker 4: lifeboat rations. Yeah, they're just like I think like oil

2396
02:09:50,360 --> 02:09:55,200
Speaker 4: and sugar and flour or something. Oh sounds yeah, and

2397
02:09:55,320 --> 02:09:57,200
Speaker 4: it's like, you know what, it's three days worth of

2398
02:09:57,280 --> 02:10:02,080
Speaker 4: food at twelve hundred calories a day, barely three but whatever. Yeah, okay,

2399
02:10:02,120 --> 02:10:05,600
Speaker 4: So I recommend having that and you know, making sure

2400
02:10:05,640 --> 02:10:10,560
Speaker 4: to swap that out. Overall, I advocate not putting in

2401
02:10:10,760 --> 02:10:12,840
Speaker 4: things that will go bad, because you are going to

2402
02:10:12,880 --> 02:10:15,240
Speaker 4: forget about this until it becomes a habit for you

2403
02:10:15,360 --> 02:10:18,480
Speaker 4: to check it every month or so. Yeah. Okay. A

2404
02:10:18,600 --> 02:10:22,000
Speaker 4: travel hygiene kit with toothbrush, floss, toothpaste, moist tallets, foam

2405
02:10:22,080 --> 02:10:24,440
Speaker 4: ear plugs for sleeping in noisy environments. That one is

2406
02:10:24,560 --> 02:10:28,800
Speaker 4: like way more. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I am.

2407
02:10:29,840 --> 02:10:31,600
Speaker 9: And it's a time in my life when I was

2408
02:10:32,040 --> 02:10:34,640
Speaker 9: mostly living in my car, traveling around France racing bicycles.

2409
02:10:35,080 --> 02:10:38,000
Speaker 9: I got caught in a snowstorm along with a number

2410
02:10:38,000 --> 02:10:40,720
Speaker 9: of other people who were traveling in various vehicles, and

2411
02:10:41,280 --> 02:10:43,600
Speaker 9: some of them were traveling in order to make an

2412
02:10:43,600 --> 02:10:47,440
Speaker 9: asylum claim, and we all got to this refugee camp

2413
02:10:47,440 --> 02:10:49,640
Speaker 9: where basically we're sleeping on the floor of a large building.

2414
02:10:49,680 --> 02:10:50,920
Speaker 4: And I did not sleep for.

2415
02:10:51,120 --> 02:10:54,480
Speaker 9: Days because people had children and you know, it's loud,

2416
02:10:54,520 --> 02:10:56,040
Speaker 9: and like, yeah, those air plugs would have been the

2417
02:10:56,120 --> 02:10:56,960
Speaker 9: most important thing.

2418
02:10:57,280 --> 02:10:59,680
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah. And it was like I actually started carrying

2419
02:10:59,720 --> 02:11:01,280
Speaker 4: them just because of going to shows when I used

2420
02:11:01,320 --> 02:11:03,680
Speaker 4: to do that more. And then I was like, oh,

2421
02:11:03,760 --> 02:11:06,120
Speaker 4: these are really useful in all kinds of situations. They

2422
02:11:06,280 --> 02:11:11,440
Speaker 4: cost like nothing and they save your hearing. The bang

2423
02:11:11,520 --> 02:11:14,240
Speaker 4: for your buck, the non bang for your buck is

2424
02:11:14,720 --> 02:11:19,680
Speaker 4: very good. Yeah, the buck is great. Uh, nail clippers,

2425
02:11:19,760 --> 02:11:22,240
Speaker 4: your daily wear, makeup, and anything else you might need

2426
02:11:22,280 --> 02:11:24,880
Speaker 4: to goes in your hygiene kid, any prescription or over

2427
02:11:24,920 --> 02:11:28,200
Speaker 4: the counter medications that you rely on. And one thing

2428
02:11:28,280 --> 02:11:31,520
Speaker 4: that came up from a doctor friend of mine recommended.

2429
02:11:31,640 --> 02:11:33,600
Speaker 4: When I was first started making these kids for my friends,

2430
02:11:33,640 --> 02:11:36,200
Speaker 4: I was like buying bulk aspirin and putting it into

2431
02:11:36,240 --> 02:11:40,240
Speaker 4: little drug baggies you know, yeah, smut. And my friend

2432
02:11:40,360 --> 02:11:43,520
Speaker 4: was like, you need to put blister packs in instead

2433
02:11:44,160 --> 02:11:51,720
Speaker 4: blister packs being the like little yeah, individually individually labeled ones. Yeah. Yeah,

2434
02:11:51,800 --> 02:11:57,080
Speaker 4: to explain this thing, yeah, yeah, we're professionals. Yeah, because

2435
02:11:57,120 --> 02:11:59,680
Speaker 4: the police have less cause for suspicion if you were

2436
02:11:59,760 --> 02:12:03,840
Speaker 4: certain and this is clearly advil, it says, so it

2437
02:12:04,000 --> 02:12:06,840
Speaker 4: is packaged in a way that is not convenient for

2438
02:12:06,880 --> 02:12:10,560
Speaker 4: people to make their own packages. Yeah, and so and

2439
02:12:10,640 --> 02:12:12,400
Speaker 4: actually it's funny is that of all the ones that

2440
02:12:12,480 --> 02:12:14,560
Speaker 4: I put into people's things, the only thing I haven't

2441
02:12:14,560 --> 02:12:17,960
Speaker 4: been able to get blister packed is caffeine. Because I

2442
02:12:18,040 --> 02:12:20,400
Speaker 4: put caffeine into these things because a lot of people

2443
02:12:20,400 --> 02:12:22,240
Speaker 4: are addicted to it, and also because it's useful to

2444
02:12:22,280 --> 02:12:24,400
Speaker 4: be able to stay awake in certain environments. And so

2445
02:12:24,480 --> 02:12:29,120
Speaker 4: I actually put in like different like caffeine powder drinks

2446
02:12:29,480 --> 02:12:32,840
Speaker 4: or caffeine gum or other things. Yes, yeah, it's going

2447
02:12:32,920 --> 02:12:36,320
Speaker 4: to say, get MRI caffeine gum. Yeah. And then also

2448
02:12:36,720 --> 02:12:38,200
Speaker 4: and I give them to my friends who are about

2449
02:12:38,200 --> 02:12:41,400
Speaker 4: to drive sleepy. Is like yes, And that's the main

2450
02:12:41,600 --> 02:12:44,040
Speaker 4: use that I have had. It's amazing. I don't drink caffeine.

2451
02:12:44,080 --> 02:12:45,800
Speaker 4: It's amazing how much caffeine I have on me at

2452
02:12:45,840 --> 02:12:51,280
Speaker 4: any given time. Yeah, A change of socks and underwear,

2453
02:12:51,400 --> 02:12:53,920
Speaker 4: and these should be like climate appropriate, especially like wool

2454
02:12:54,000 --> 02:12:56,680
Speaker 4: socks are like the most useful thing in the world.

2455
02:12:56,800 --> 02:12:59,560
Speaker 4: Just as a general rule, I think that a packable

2456
02:12:59,680 --> 02:13:03,960
Speaker 4: range jacket and or poncho is incredibly useful here. A

2457
02:13:04,040 --> 02:13:05,960
Speaker 4: lot of people like the ponchos that are sort of

2458
02:13:06,000 --> 02:13:07,960
Speaker 4: a slightly more military style because you can use them

2459
02:13:07,960 --> 02:13:09,600
Speaker 4: as a tarp and make a shelter if you need.

2460
02:13:10,560 --> 02:13:14,440
Speaker 4: That might be overkill for your particular environment. You might

2461
02:13:14,480 --> 02:13:17,000
Speaker 4: also just have, like your hiking rain jacket that goes

2462
02:13:17,040 --> 02:13:21,160
Speaker 4: in there. A puffy packable warm top is a little

2463
02:13:21,200 --> 02:13:24,560
Speaker 4: bit of a like bonus item. It's I think having

2464
02:13:24,600 --> 02:13:27,440
Speaker 4: a warm upper layer is really important for a lot

2465
02:13:27,480 --> 02:13:31,600
Speaker 4: of it's until you've slept outside without a sleeping bag,

2466
02:13:31,760 --> 02:13:33,640
Speaker 4: you have no idea how cold it is in the

2467
02:13:33,720 --> 02:13:37,920
Speaker 4: summer to sleep outside. Yeah, on the ground. Especially whenever

2468
02:13:37,960 --> 02:13:39,840
Speaker 4: I'm watching movies or reading books and like the kid

2469
02:13:39,920 --> 02:13:41,560
Speaker 4: runs away from home or they're like on the and

2470
02:13:41,640 --> 02:13:43,160
Speaker 4: they go and they sleep in the woods, I'm like,

2471
02:13:43,240 --> 02:13:46,400
Speaker 4: the fuck they did? They did not sleep that night? Yeah?

2472
02:13:46,640 --> 02:13:49,600
Speaker 9: Yeah, you lie on your side, holding yourself, wondering while

2473
02:13:49,600 --> 02:13:50,800
Speaker 9: you made these choices in life.

2474
02:13:51,200 --> 02:13:51,400
Speaker 4: Yeah.

2475
02:13:52,120 --> 02:13:53,920
Speaker 9: Yeah, I might add that if you're going to have

2476
02:13:54,080 --> 02:13:56,720
Speaker 9: a specific like a puffy jacket for this, and you

2477
02:13:56,760 --> 02:13:58,800
Speaker 9: don't own a puffy jacket yet. A couple of things

2478
02:13:58,840 --> 02:14:03,560
Speaker 9: to consider that generally, compressing down will help make it

2479
02:14:03,640 --> 02:14:06,240
Speaker 9: lose some of its loft, so it will be less lofty. Yeah,

2480
02:14:06,960 --> 02:14:08,600
Speaker 9: so you don't want to keep that stuff compressed for

2481
02:14:08,640 --> 02:14:11,520
Speaker 9: a very long time or super compressed, right, don't cram

2482
02:14:11,560 --> 02:14:15,200
Speaker 9: it into the smallest ball. Remember that when you buy

2483
02:14:15,280 --> 02:14:17,720
Speaker 9: down jackets or the baffles which are the sewing lines

2484
02:14:17,760 --> 02:14:20,880
Speaker 9: across it, like, those are areas that are not insulated, right,

2485
02:14:20,920 --> 02:14:22,920
Speaker 9: So you don't actually want the ones with the with

2486
02:14:23,040 --> 02:14:24,920
Speaker 9: one hundred little baffles going down them.

2487
02:14:25,000 --> 02:14:26,200
Speaker 4: Oh interesting, that makes sense.

2488
02:14:26,760 --> 02:14:31,360
Speaker 9: Yeah uh. And then synthetic insulation does a lot better

2489
02:14:31,640 --> 02:14:37,160
Speaker 9: with with with with wetness. It retains some of its

2490
02:14:37,360 --> 02:14:40,960
Speaker 9: insulating properties. And my final thing with down jackets, I

2491
02:14:41,000 --> 02:14:43,880
Speaker 9: think a lot about down jackets. I'm sorry, is get

2492
02:14:43,960 --> 02:14:46,320
Speaker 9: one that is a size bigger than you would normally

2493
02:14:46,440 --> 02:14:50,200
Speaker 9: get for like, oh yeah, because you don't really want

2494
02:14:50,200 --> 02:14:51,960
Speaker 9: to be taking stuff off when you're cold.

2495
02:14:52,120 --> 02:14:53,040
Speaker 4: You want a jacket that you.

2496
02:14:53,080 --> 02:14:56,000
Speaker 9: Can just put on over all your stuff. We call

2497
02:14:56,040 --> 02:14:58,160
Speaker 9: it a ballet Parker in the in the in the

2498
02:14:58,240 --> 02:15:01,720
Speaker 9: sort of mountaineering community. But it's like a static thing. Right,

2499
02:15:01,760 --> 02:15:04,040
Speaker 9: So you're hiking your mount to climbing, you stop, you

2500
02:15:04,160 --> 02:15:07,120
Speaker 9: immediately check that thing on over everything that keeps you

2501
02:15:07,240 --> 02:15:08,840
Speaker 9: warm until you start moving again.

2502
02:15:09,320 --> 02:15:13,200
Speaker 4: That makes sense to me, I advocate personally, I advocate

2503
02:15:13,240 --> 02:15:16,440
Speaker 4: for synthetic. I advocate because it's cheaper, you can leave

2504
02:15:16,520 --> 02:15:20,280
Speaker 4: it compressed, and because it insulates better in the wet

2505
02:15:20,520 --> 02:15:24,160
Speaker 4: and it is much heavier for its and larger for

2506
02:15:24,320 --> 02:15:29,080
Speaker 4: its insulating value. But for me, like having spent a

2507
02:15:29,160 --> 02:15:31,520
Speaker 4: lot of my life like sleeping and sleeping bags with

2508
02:15:31,600 --> 02:15:33,320
Speaker 4: no tarp or whatever and just being like, I'll just

2509
02:15:33,360 --> 02:15:36,640
Speaker 4: fucking deal whether it's not raining that hard, you know, like.

2510
02:15:36,720 --> 02:15:39,680
Speaker 9: Yeah, yeah, totally, Like I have fucked some really expensive

2511
02:15:39,760 --> 02:15:42,720
Speaker 9: down sleeping bags, even the oil on your skin, and

2512
02:15:42,760 --> 02:15:46,400
Speaker 9: will actually eventually closet that down to Yeah, like that

2513
02:15:46,600 --> 02:15:49,880
Speaker 9: you really have to baby some ultra light down stuff,

2514
02:15:49,880 --> 02:15:50,520
Speaker 9: which is fine.

2515
02:15:50,600 --> 02:15:51,680
Speaker 4: Like if I'm mountaineering.

2516
02:15:51,720 --> 02:15:53,960
Speaker 9: If I'm not that I will baby my bag because

2517
02:15:54,000 --> 02:15:55,200
Speaker 9: I don't want to carry extra shit.

2518
02:15:55,680 --> 02:15:58,920
Speaker 4: But this is not that exactly, Like if you are

2519
02:15:59,040 --> 02:16:00,960
Speaker 4: trying to do a through hike, you might look at

2520
02:16:00,960 --> 02:16:03,360
Speaker 4: this very differently. And there's a version of the world

2521
02:16:03,400 --> 02:16:06,200
Speaker 4: where your crisis might involve moving over the mountains in

2522
02:16:06,280 --> 02:16:09,720
Speaker 4: winter to get out of a country that has just

2523
02:16:09,800 --> 02:16:12,400
Speaker 4: elected a fascist who says that he wants to kill

2524
02:16:12,440 --> 02:16:16,880
Speaker 4: all the communists or whatever. Yeah, I've spoken to those people. Yeah. Yeah,

2525
02:16:17,160 --> 02:16:21,240
Speaker 4: and so like in that situation, get the mountaineer and shit,

2526
02:16:21,520 --> 02:16:24,200
Speaker 4: you know. Yeah yeah, okay, other stuff to have in

2527
02:16:24,320 --> 02:16:27,760
Speaker 4: this bag a heavy duty trash bag. You can put

2528
02:16:27,800 --> 02:16:30,040
Speaker 4: all your stuff in it to keep it dry. Yeah. Yeah,

2529
02:16:30,280 --> 02:16:32,360
Speaker 4: there's like all these like arguments about how to keep

2530
02:16:32,360 --> 02:16:34,360
Speaker 4: your bag dry and overall. And I'm curious if this

2531
02:16:34,440 --> 02:16:38,160
Speaker 4: has been your experience. People have been moving away from

2532
02:16:38,240 --> 02:16:41,000
Speaker 4: like pack covers where you cover the pack and instead

2533
02:16:41,080 --> 02:16:43,800
Speaker 4: just put everything inside the pack into something that's waterproof.

2534
02:16:44,440 --> 02:16:46,640
Speaker 9: Yeah, that's what I've done for a very long time.

2535
02:16:47,200 --> 02:16:48,879
Speaker 9: You can spend a lot of money on stuff sacks

2536
02:16:49,840 --> 02:16:52,080
Speaker 9: like the event ones that see. To some it make

2537
02:16:52,120 --> 02:16:54,360
Speaker 9: it cool because they have a one way breathable fabric,

2538
02:16:54,480 --> 02:16:56,760
Speaker 9: so you squeeze them and the egg goes rules, it

2539
02:16:57,000 --> 02:16:57,680
Speaker 9: doesn't go back in.

2540
02:16:57,800 --> 02:16:58,400
Speaker 4: It's pretty cool.

2541
02:16:58,640 --> 02:17:00,800
Speaker 9: Yeah, But then you end up with these really hard

2542
02:17:00,959 --> 02:17:04,000
Speaker 9: bricks of clothing or whatever that like you can't kind

2543
02:17:04,040 --> 02:17:05,760
Speaker 9: of make them fill the space, right, They just end

2544
02:17:05,840 --> 02:17:07,800
Speaker 9: up being like solid, so sometimes they don't pack as well.

2545
02:17:08,040 --> 02:17:08,240
Speaker 3: Yeah.

2546
02:17:08,320 --> 02:17:13,039
Speaker 9: I have used three milimeter contract great bin bags for years.

2547
02:17:13,840 --> 02:17:16,600
Speaker 9: The amountain into the deserts. You can sleep in them,

2548
02:17:16,640 --> 02:17:18,720
Speaker 9: you can make them into a poncho. You can fill

2549
02:17:18,800 --> 02:17:20,760
Speaker 9: them with brush and make them into a sleeping pad.

2550
02:17:22,240 --> 02:17:22,440
Speaker 8: Yeah.

2551
02:17:22,640 --> 02:17:25,480
Speaker 4: Great items, And it's sketchy, but a lot of people

2552
02:17:26,440 --> 02:17:29,760
Speaker 4: who are stuck living outside in very cold environments will

2553
02:17:29,760 --> 02:17:32,440
Speaker 4: wear them close to their skin for like a really

2554
02:17:32,560 --> 02:17:36,720
Speaker 4: intensely heating insulating layer. But it's sketchy because then you

2555
02:17:36,800 --> 02:17:38,280
Speaker 4: sweat like hell, and you can freeze to death if

2556
02:17:38,280 --> 02:17:42,920
Speaker 4: you really careful. Yeah, that's some like that's some life

2557
02:17:42,959 --> 02:17:46,440
Speaker 4: or death shit. Yeah exactly. I'm not telling you how

2558
02:17:46,520 --> 02:17:49,720
Speaker 4: to do that on air here, you know, yeah.

2559
02:17:49,600 --> 02:17:51,360
Speaker 9: Google, But yeah, they have a lot of usage. You

2560
02:17:51,360 --> 02:17:53,600
Speaker 9: get them to gather water too, I've done that before.

2561
02:17:53,840 --> 02:17:57,400
Speaker 4: Oh that makes sense. Cash. Cash is really useful. The

2562
02:17:57,480 --> 02:17:59,320
Speaker 4: amount of cash you want to carry has to do

2563
02:17:59,400 --> 02:18:01,080
Speaker 4: with the amount of actually you're willing to put into

2564
02:18:01,120 --> 02:18:03,720
Speaker 4: a bag that just sits there if it does nothing. Yeah,

2565
02:18:04,520 --> 02:18:09,960
Speaker 4: gold of course, Yeah, totally have so many thoughts about

2566
02:18:10,680 --> 02:18:14,920
Speaker 4: Golden air. Yeah yeah, yeah. Anyway, that's beside the point.

2567
02:18:14,920 --> 02:18:17,640
Speaker 4: That's where home prepping. Okay, you want to spare USB

2568
02:18:17,760 --> 02:18:22,000
Speaker 4: battery and charging cables. I would advocate an octopus cable

2569
02:18:22,080 --> 02:18:24,560
Speaker 4: that has like mini USBC and lightning charger all on

2570
02:18:24,640 --> 02:18:26,160
Speaker 4: one cable so you don't have to keep track of

2571
02:18:26,240 --> 02:18:27,840
Speaker 4: multiple cables for multiple devices.

2572
02:18:28,080 --> 02:18:32,040
Speaker 9: Yeah, right right here, I'm trying to look what the

2573
02:18:32,080 --> 02:18:35,760
Speaker 9: brand is of mine, because I got one recently. When

2574
02:18:35,800 --> 02:18:39,280
Speaker 9: I'm working in places that are conflict zones, especially places

2575
02:18:39,280 --> 02:18:40,879
Speaker 9: where I think I might have to go like peace

2576
02:18:40,920 --> 02:18:43,560
Speaker 9: out to a bomb shelter for a few hours, days whatever,

2577
02:18:44,920 --> 02:18:47,360
Speaker 9: I like to have a little pouch with all my

2578
02:18:47,480 --> 02:18:49,720
Speaker 9: charging and medical and essential stuff.

2579
02:18:50,080 --> 02:18:50,280
Speaker 4: Yeah.

2580
02:18:50,520 --> 02:18:52,520
Speaker 9: This is called a leave a cable and I found

2581
02:18:52,520 --> 02:18:55,080
Speaker 9: it to be very handy because it's like stiff and

2582
02:18:55,200 --> 02:18:59,360
Speaker 9: it doesn't cables get twisted and frayed a lot. Okay,

2583
02:18:59,480 --> 02:19:02,560
Speaker 9: doesn't do that. Yeah, Yeah, a little buzz marketing for

2584
02:19:02,680 --> 02:19:02,920
Speaker 9: you there.

2585
02:19:03,040 --> 02:19:05,920
Speaker 4: Yeah. Now, I'm gonna look into those later because I

2586
02:19:06,480 --> 02:19:08,080
Speaker 4: as much as I'm like, oh fuck all the gadgets,

2587
02:19:08,120 --> 02:19:09,400
Speaker 4: know what I'm trying to say, You don't need all

2588
02:19:09,440 --> 02:19:11,880
Speaker 4: the gadgets, but they're kind of cool and like and

2589
02:19:11,959 --> 02:19:14,240
Speaker 4: the size of extra battery you have is depending on

2590
02:19:14,320 --> 02:19:17,800
Speaker 4: what you're doing. You know, like, if you're reasonably sure

2591
02:19:17,840 --> 02:19:19,720
Speaker 4: you're gonna be around power, just have a little one

2592
02:19:19,840 --> 02:19:21,680
Speaker 4: and because like you know what, you're gonna be the

2593
02:19:21,720 --> 02:19:24,520
Speaker 4: one who saves the night. When everyone's drunk at the

2594
02:19:24,600 --> 02:19:27,440
Speaker 4: bar and someone's phone is dead and they're the only

2595
02:19:27,520 --> 02:19:31,520
Speaker 4: person who has uber set up right, and you know, yeah,

2596
02:19:32,160 --> 02:19:34,520
Speaker 4: Like I've been trying to advocate that per snacks are

2597
02:19:34,520 --> 02:19:36,480
Speaker 4: the best example of prepping and that everything that like

2598
02:19:36,640 --> 02:19:38,960
Speaker 4: men are trying to do is like catching up with

2599
02:19:39,120 --> 02:19:42,640
Speaker 4: the fact that like women are actually culturally in our

2600
02:19:42,720 --> 02:19:47,920
Speaker 4: society like better at prepping. Yeah, but okay, uh, I

2601
02:19:48,000 --> 02:19:50,880
Speaker 4: put a milar emergency blanket in. These are these like

2602
02:19:51,879 --> 02:19:55,280
Speaker 4: you know, they seem almost gimmicky. They're these incredibly light

2603
02:19:55,840 --> 02:19:57,520
Speaker 4: little plastic tarps.

2604
02:19:57,600 --> 02:19:57,720
Speaker 3: Right.

2605
02:19:58,160 --> 02:20:01,600
Speaker 4: Uh. One probably my life when I was thirty, like

2606
02:20:01,760 --> 02:20:03,800
Speaker 4: on my like twelfth or thirteenth birthday, when I like

2607
02:20:03,879 --> 02:20:07,600
Speaker 4: woke up getting hypothermia five miles from the road in

2608
02:20:07,720 --> 02:20:10,640
Speaker 4: a wet tent. So I'm just like, yeah, no, eyes

2609
02:20:10,640 --> 02:20:12,600
Speaker 4: are great, Like, yeah, they're great.

2610
02:20:12,920 --> 02:20:15,640
Speaker 9: They that you can do a hypothermia wrap with them,

2611
02:20:16,360 --> 02:20:18,160
Speaker 9: use them for signing if you're in a different kind

2612
02:20:18,200 --> 02:20:22,440
Speaker 9: of situation. We can't use them in the refuge count

2613
02:20:22,600 --> 02:20:24,760
Speaker 9: and working because one of them floated into a transformer

2614
02:20:25,560 --> 02:20:28,240
Speaker 9: and that oh wow that yeah, so yeah, that's your

2615
02:20:28,480 --> 02:20:31,240
Speaker 9: that's your caveat there doing get some around high voltage power.

2616
02:20:31,320 --> 02:20:33,400
Speaker 9: But yeah, there's things you're not going to get anything

2617
02:20:33,440 --> 02:20:35,360
Speaker 9: warmer for that size. It's the size of a couple

2618
02:20:35,360 --> 02:20:36,840
Speaker 9: of credit cards stacked on top of each other.

2619
02:20:37,080 --> 02:20:39,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, totally, And like in mind I have like a

2620
02:20:40,040 --> 02:20:42,440
Speaker 4: slightly nicer one because I don't have a sleeping bag.

2621
02:20:42,480 --> 02:20:45,080
Speaker 4: In mind, I have like an emergency bag. Sleeping bag.

2622
02:20:45,120 --> 02:20:46,720
Speaker 4: I've never used it, I don't.

2623
02:20:46,920 --> 02:20:50,320
Speaker 9: Oh yeah, the there's a company called Survive Outdoors. Fuck,

2624
02:20:50,320 --> 02:20:52,200
Speaker 9: I'm saying a little companies today by autu you have

2625
02:20:52,240 --> 02:20:54,320
Speaker 9: a shit you want, don't care. There's company go Survive

2626
02:20:54,360 --> 02:20:56,600
Speaker 9: Outdoors Longer that makes one that's like about the size

2627
02:20:56,640 --> 02:20:57,800
Speaker 9: of a beer can.

2628
02:20:58,200 --> 02:21:01,480
Speaker 4: Yeah that's that's yeah, I think, Yeah those are great. Yeah,

2629
02:21:01,560 --> 02:21:02,360
Speaker 4: I've sucked up.

2630
02:21:02,400 --> 02:21:04,520
Speaker 9: It's at night one of those when I was doing

2631
02:21:04,680 --> 02:21:07,280
Speaker 9: like the like look how ultra light I could be stuff.

2632
02:21:07,440 --> 02:21:11,240
Speaker 4: It's not great, but like but here you are recording here.

2633
02:21:11,280 --> 02:21:13,920
Speaker 9: I am not defintely with my full set of digits,

2634
02:21:14,040 --> 02:21:16,760
Speaker 9: so like I got really complain, you know, yeah exactly.

2635
02:21:17,520 --> 02:21:19,640
Speaker 9: And those things won't float off into a power transform.

2636
02:21:19,680 --> 02:21:20,400
Speaker 9: They're a bit heavier.

2637
02:21:20,879 --> 02:21:23,960
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, yeah, no, that would be yeah, it would

2638
02:21:23,959 --> 02:21:27,240
Speaker 4: be an advantage of it. Uh yeah, and the other side.

2639
02:21:27,240 --> 02:21:30,279
Speaker 9: So again people will see you, right, which a contrary

2640
02:21:30,360 --> 02:21:33,000
Speaker 9: to what you might have seen on YouTube. You want

2641
02:21:33,080 --> 02:21:35,600
Speaker 9: people to see you most of the time. Most crises

2642
02:21:35,600 --> 02:21:37,400
Speaker 9: you're going to encounter, you're not going to be hiding.

2643
02:21:37,760 --> 02:21:40,360
Speaker 4: Right. Sometimes when you're like hitchhiking and shit, you do

2644
02:21:40,480 --> 02:21:41,760
Speaker 4: have to not be seen. And then I get really

2645
02:21:41,879 --> 02:21:43,560
Speaker 4: nice houp, right, all the tents are and so I

2646
02:21:43,680 --> 02:21:46,600
Speaker 4: kind of want one of the like new bullshit Camo

2647
02:21:46,920 --> 02:21:51,080
Speaker 4: ultra light tents. But yeah, that's I don't hitchhike. I

2648
02:21:51,120 --> 02:21:54,840
Speaker 4: have a fucking truck. It's bullshit. I'm fine. A full

2649
02:21:54,920 --> 02:21:57,160
Speaker 4: water bottle. I think it's always worth having a full

2650
02:21:57,200 --> 02:21:59,360
Speaker 4: water bottle in your in your bag. This is the

2651
02:21:59,440 --> 02:22:04,160
Speaker 4: heaviest thing in your bag. Water is just fucking wonderful

2652
02:22:04,320 --> 02:22:06,119
Speaker 4: and you need way more of it than you think

2653
02:22:06,200 --> 02:22:10,320
Speaker 4: you do when you're exerting yourself. I have been historically

2654
02:22:10,400 --> 02:22:13,120
Speaker 4: advocating a single wall steel canteen so that the water

2655
02:22:13,200 --> 02:22:16,760
Speaker 4: can be boiled in an emergency directly in it. But

2656
02:22:16,920 --> 02:22:18,800
Speaker 4: a lot of people have a preference for lighter weight

2657
02:22:18,840 --> 02:22:20,360
Speaker 4: and that makes a lot of sense, and also even

2658
02:22:20,400 --> 02:22:22,600
Speaker 4: having something that just looks a little bit more civilian

2659
02:22:23,200 --> 02:22:25,200
Speaker 4: also makes a lot of sense. The ultra light. I

2660
02:22:25,320 --> 02:22:27,440
Speaker 4: actually think the ultra Lighters might be right on this one.

2661
02:22:27,480 --> 02:22:29,600
Speaker 4: And they use the to use a brand name. They

2662
02:22:29,640 --> 02:22:31,880
Speaker 4: all get those smart waters, but then they don't keep

2663
02:22:32,120 --> 02:22:35,400
Speaker 4: drinking smart water. They drink one and then they clean

2664
02:22:35,480 --> 02:22:38,320
Speaker 4: it and refill the bottle of tap water. Yeah, or

2665
02:22:38,400 --> 02:22:40,400
Speaker 4: with the soil of filter fits on top of it,

2666
02:22:40,560 --> 02:22:42,520
Speaker 4: which is very handy. Right. Yeah.

2667
02:22:42,640 --> 02:22:44,760
Speaker 9: The thing I do like about a single waves change

2668
02:22:44,920 --> 02:22:48,120
Speaker 9: bottle a the smart water bottles. You fill them up

2669
02:22:48,120 --> 02:22:51,200
Speaker 9: and then they freeze. They can break right and b

2670
02:22:51,840 --> 02:22:53,960
Speaker 9: I like to do like the analogeen baby, you know

2671
02:22:54,040 --> 02:22:56,800
Speaker 9: where you boil some water, put it in that thing

2672
02:22:57,280 --> 02:23:00,360
Speaker 9: and then you are cold. That comes into bed with you. Yeah,

2673
02:23:00,600 --> 02:23:02,240
Speaker 9: it's very pleasant experience.

2674
02:23:02,600 --> 02:23:04,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, no, that that makes sense to me.

2675
02:23:06,560 --> 02:23:09,000
Speaker 9: I don't know what happened to full water full full

2676
02:23:09,040 --> 02:23:12,680
Speaker 9: steel water ball, that's true. Someone on the head with it. Yeah,

2677
02:23:12,879 --> 02:23:14,840
Speaker 9: they're coming back from that. Even the guy with the

2678
02:23:14,879 --> 02:23:16,640
Speaker 9: folding ar, he's not getting up. You give him a

2679
02:23:16,640 --> 02:23:17,800
Speaker 9: couple with the well.

2680
02:23:17,800 --> 02:23:19,960
Speaker 4: And if we're going for cross punk, I also recommend

2681
02:23:20,000 --> 02:23:24,720
Speaker 4: a lock attached to a chain. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, Well,

2682
02:23:25,440 --> 02:23:29,760
Speaker 4: if you have a bicycle. True, that's true. Yeah, yeah,

2683
02:23:29,800 --> 02:23:33,880
Speaker 4: areas of our interest. Yeah, okay, a buttane lighter, a

2684
02:23:33,959 --> 02:23:37,240
Speaker 4: bit lighter, an emergency whistle. This is the most. Like

2685
02:23:37,840 --> 02:23:39,760
Speaker 4: I was at a firearms training and we were talking

2686
02:23:39,760 --> 02:23:41,520
Speaker 4: about a bunch of stuff and people were like, all right,

2687
02:23:41,520 --> 02:23:43,720
Speaker 4: and this is how you like signal the following, you know,

2688
02:23:43,879 --> 02:23:45,879
Speaker 4: like like range clear kind of stuff, like use a whistle,

2689
02:23:45,879 --> 02:23:48,920
Speaker 4: bah blah blah blah. And everyone's like, I didn't bring

2690
02:23:49,000 --> 02:23:51,879
Speaker 4: a whistle. I'm like I got three in my bag,

2691
02:23:52,040 --> 02:23:53,000
Speaker 4: Like what are you doing?

2692
02:23:53,640 --> 02:23:57,680
Speaker 8: Yeah, amateurs, Yeah, if they're light and cheap and useful,

2693
02:23:57,920 --> 02:24:00,280
Speaker 8: like the number of people who wouldn't have done in

2694
02:24:00,320 --> 02:24:03,680
Speaker 8: the woods because if they had a whistle, like more

2695
02:24:03,720 --> 02:24:04,480
Speaker 8: than anything else.

2696
02:24:04,680 --> 02:24:08,240
Speaker 4: Because people think that the solution to our problems is

2697
02:24:08,360 --> 02:24:11,680
Speaker 4: fix it yourself. Usually the solution to problems is get help.

2698
02:24:12,600 --> 02:24:14,800
Speaker 9: Yes, yeah, yeah, And that's a great like you're going

2699
02:24:14,879 --> 02:24:16,840
Speaker 9: to use a lot less energy whistlingly shouting.

2700
02:24:17,200 --> 02:24:21,120
Speaker 4: Yeah. Most if hiking backpacks.

2701
02:24:20,959 --> 02:24:23,920
Speaker 9: Will have a chest buckle that is also a whistle,

2702
02:24:24,000 --> 02:24:25,520
Speaker 9: and if they don't, you can probably change it.

2703
02:24:25,800 --> 02:24:27,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, and that rules. That's the kind of shit I

2704
02:24:27,920 --> 02:24:30,760
Speaker 4: like to see. Yeah, it's well thought out. It's cover. Yeah,

2705
02:24:30,800 --> 02:24:32,560
Speaker 4: we love it. And when I when I lived on

2706
02:24:32,600 --> 02:24:34,840
Speaker 4: a lab project, I made everyone put the hurricane whistles

2707
02:24:34,879 --> 02:24:37,320
Speaker 4: by their door so that like we didn't always have

2708
02:24:37,520 --> 02:24:40,000
Speaker 4: a good cell reception or whatever, and so that there's

2709
02:24:40,000 --> 02:24:42,640
Speaker 4: an emergency, we can everyone has a whistle loud enough

2710
02:24:42,680 --> 02:24:45,320
Speaker 4: to be heard by everyone else on the large products.

2711
02:24:45,320 --> 02:24:47,800
Speaker 9: Oh yeah, you know spot. Yeah, it's a lot less

2712
02:24:47,840 --> 02:24:50,039
Speaker 9: money than a ham radio, which is something I've been.

2713
02:24:50,320 --> 02:24:52,360
Speaker 4: Right and like I'm not anti having like you know,

2714
02:24:52,680 --> 02:24:55,880
Speaker 4: Miwaukie talkies and stuff, but yeah, yeah, sometimes you're just like, no,

2715
02:24:56,000 --> 02:24:57,640
Speaker 4: I have a hurricane whistle, or even I just have

2716
02:24:57,680 --> 02:25:01,480
Speaker 4: a regular whistle. Okay, a folding knife to print them?

2717
02:25:01,640 --> 02:25:01,880
Speaker 4: What's that?

2718
02:25:02,440 --> 02:25:04,320
Speaker 9: You could three D print them pretty good ones. Oh

2719
02:25:04,360 --> 02:25:06,560
Speaker 9: that's cool, like three to printing me give them out, now,

2720
02:25:06,800 --> 02:25:07,240
Speaker 9: that's cool.

2721
02:25:07,720 --> 02:25:12,560
Speaker 4: That's awesome. I keep a folding knife in these bags.

2722
02:25:12,600 --> 02:25:14,440
Speaker 4: I also usually just have one on me. But and

2723
02:25:15,480 --> 02:25:18,480
Speaker 4: you know, the least weapon looking knife you can get

2724
02:25:19,160 --> 02:25:20,360
Speaker 4: is going to be a bang for your buck in

2725
02:25:20,440 --> 02:25:22,680
Speaker 4: terms of like being able to go with you lots

2726
02:25:22,720 --> 02:25:26,960
Speaker 4: of places. Obviously, this isn't going to your carry on luggage. Yeah,

2727
02:25:27,240 --> 02:25:31,520
Speaker 4: A rechargeable headlamp or flashlight, and then a basic first

2728
02:25:31,560 --> 02:25:35,560
Speaker 4: aid kit. That's my you know, there's there's all kinds

2729
02:25:35,600 --> 02:25:40,160
Speaker 4: of other stuff. If you're going to be hiking, if

2730
02:25:40,200 --> 02:25:41,960
Speaker 4: you're and if I know I'm going to be like

2731
02:25:42,120 --> 02:25:44,320
Speaker 4: in a lot of situations, one of the first things

2732
02:25:44,360 --> 02:25:46,000
Speaker 4: I would add as a tarp and a sleeping bag.

2733
02:25:46,200 --> 02:25:48,440
Speaker 4: That would be like, yeah, the next things to go

2734
02:25:48,600 --> 02:25:50,200
Speaker 4: in sleeping bags are pretty big.

2735
02:25:51,680 --> 02:25:56,720
Speaker 9: Yeah, I definitely have that stuff in a general sense,

2736
02:25:56,760 --> 02:26:00,120
Speaker 9: both for doing this and for Germany enjoying out all

2737
02:26:00,120 --> 02:26:02,440
Speaker 9: this stuff. It really helps if you can have your

2738
02:26:02,480 --> 02:26:06,280
Speaker 9: shit organized in stuff sacks and labeled so that you

2739
02:26:06,360 --> 02:26:08,320
Speaker 9: know if if you should you need to leave your

2740
02:26:08,360 --> 02:26:10,359
Speaker 9: house in an emergency, right, it's going to be more comfortable.

2741
02:26:10,360 --> 02:26:12,440
Speaker 9: If you have a sleeping bag and inflightable pillow and

2742
02:26:12,560 --> 02:26:15,080
Speaker 9: a top, you can grab them in ten seconds if

2743
02:26:15,120 --> 02:26:18,560
Speaker 9: you've got them labeled right, and it's this will also

2744
02:26:18,640 --> 02:26:20,920
Speaker 9: help you. Like I like to camp, the worst part

2745
02:26:20,920 --> 02:26:24,200
Speaker 9: about camping is packing. So if I have all my stuff,

2746
02:26:24,200 --> 02:26:25,920
Speaker 9: I can just be like, Okay, I've got a sleep system,

2747
02:26:25,959 --> 02:26:29,000
Speaker 9: I got to cooking system. Yeah, twenty four hours of food,

2748
02:26:29,040 --> 02:26:29,920
Speaker 9: I'm ready to rumble.

2749
02:26:30,160 --> 02:26:30,360
Speaker 3: Yeah.

2750
02:26:31,240 --> 02:26:33,320
Speaker 4: No, it makes sense. But you know what, who else

2751
02:26:33,440 --> 02:26:40,199
Speaker 4: is ready to rumble? Oh yeah, yeah, Reagan, they're ready

2752
02:26:40,240 --> 02:26:45,280
Speaker 4: to fight at all times. Yep, here's an ad for fighting.

2753
02:26:46,480 --> 02:26:49,800
Speaker 9: We're back and we've now learned to fight thanks to

2754
02:26:50,240 --> 02:26:50,800
Speaker 9: the adverts.

2755
02:26:50,959 --> 02:26:56,920
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, so moy tyejj. Actually that's what's fun. Yeah yeah,

2756
02:26:56,959 --> 02:27:01,920
Speaker 4: that's it's cool. Kraft Magar Yeah yeah, yeah, the the

2757
02:27:02,040 --> 02:27:06,760
Speaker 4: Rag and Gold of martial arts. Yeah, okay, so what

2758
02:27:06,879 --> 02:27:08,920
Speaker 4: do you Okay, so I have other stuff that I

2759
02:27:09,040 --> 02:27:11,560
Speaker 4: keep in my ad my bag that is like more

2760
02:27:11,640 --> 02:27:14,480
Speaker 4: fun or I think incredibly useful, but not in the

2761
02:27:14,600 --> 02:27:18,280
Speaker 4: like dead basics that I keep. But what else do

2762
02:27:18,360 --> 02:27:20,160
Speaker 4: you keep? Do you have any like fun stuff or

2763
02:27:20,360 --> 02:27:23,320
Speaker 4: other stuff that I didn't mention? Yeah, a couple of

2764
02:27:23,320 --> 02:27:24,039
Speaker 4: other things. I think.

2765
02:27:25,480 --> 02:27:27,240
Speaker 9: One of the things I use the most this is

2766
02:27:27,280 --> 02:27:29,080
Speaker 9: my little bag that I have that if I have

2767
02:27:29,200 --> 02:27:31,080
Speaker 9: to go to area, shelter or certain thing. It's very

2768
02:27:31,200 --> 02:27:35,040
Speaker 9: very small. It's like, I don't know, it's the size

2769
02:27:35,040 --> 02:27:37,360
Speaker 9: of a small paper book is would go into a

2770
02:27:37,400 --> 02:27:39,560
Speaker 9: bigger bag. But one of the things that I use

2771
02:27:39,760 --> 02:27:41,720
Speaker 9: I take on trips with me and I use everywhere

2772
02:27:41,760 --> 02:27:44,119
Speaker 9: I go. This is like a quarter inch bit driver.

2773
02:27:45,000 --> 02:27:48,200
Speaker 9: Oh nice, Yeah, and it spins, It spins, and it's

2774
02:27:48,480 --> 02:27:50,440
Speaker 9: just a tiny screw driver with where you can change

2775
02:27:50,480 --> 02:27:50,840
Speaker 9: the bits.

2776
02:27:51,280 --> 02:27:53,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, and then I have a set of bits. Yeah.

2777
02:27:54,280 --> 02:27:57,560
Speaker 9: So like I use this bad boy all the time, right,

2778
02:27:57,680 --> 02:27:59,959
Speaker 9: I use it when I get water in my podcast equipment,

2779
02:28:00,000 --> 02:28:01,640
Speaker 9: which is a thing that I am wont to do.

2780
02:28:02,400 --> 02:28:05,160
Speaker 3: Uh, you have to.

2781
02:28:05,840 --> 02:28:08,880
Speaker 9: This is my this is my this is my laddism. Right,

2782
02:28:10,280 --> 02:28:11,960
Speaker 9: I'm breaking the frame of big podcast.

2783
02:28:12,840 --> 02:28:17,640
Speaker 4: Keep a sledgehammer specifically for breaking frames. Yeah, machine frames

2784
02:28:17,680 --> 02:28:21,000
Speaker 4: if you run out. Yes, yeah, there's one thing I

2785
02:28:21,080 --> 02:28:24,160
Speaker 4: fucking hate. It's a weaving machine. And I take them

2786
02:28:24,160 --> 02:28:24,880
Speaker 4: down whenever I can.

2787
02:28:25,360 --> 02:28:27,560
Speaker 9: But this this guy is really useful, right, Like you know,

2788
02:28:27,640 --> 02:28:30,120
Speaker 9: you could be staying with you could be There are

2789
02:28:30,120 --> 02:28:32,880
Speaker 9: a million things right there. Your bed in your hotel

2790
02:28:33,040 --> 02:28:34,840
Speaker 9: is loose and you need to tighten it. You need

2791
02:28:34,920 --> 02:28:37,840
Speaker 9: to take a part of your podcasting machine. There is

2792
02:28:38,400 --> 02:28:40,360
Speaker 9: you know that there's something wrong with your phone.

2793
02:28:40,400 --> 02:28:40,879
Speaker 4: Whatever.

2794
02:28:40,879 --> 02:28:43,000
Speaker 9: It is like a screwdriver and a few little bits,

2795
02:28:43,640 --> 02:28:46,200
Speaker 9: super handy. You want to help your friend put together

2796
02:28:46,280 --> 02:28:50,120
Speaker 9: to my kea furniture not a problem. So it's very

2797
02:28:50,200 --> 02:28:52,880
Speaker 9: very small. It's you know the size of pretty the

2798
02:28:52,959 --> 02:28:54,640
Speaker 9: size of a cigarette and then the sort of bits

2799
02:28:54,720 --> 02:28:58,480
Speaker 9: and the size of another cigarette. Very easy to carry

2800
02:28:58,480 --> 02:29:02,279
Speaker 9: around with you everywhere. I am an appreciator of sporks.

2801
02:29:02,720 --> 02:29:04,480
Speaker 4: Oh that's on my that was on my follow up

2802
02:29:04,520 --> 02:29:06,280
Speaker 4: list too. Oh excellent. Good.

2803
02:29:06,440 --> 02:29:08,120
Speaker 9: Yeah, I'm a person who thinks about sporks a lot.

2804
02:29:08,400 --> 02:29:11,040
Speaker 9: You guys can read my sport reviews at backpacking dot

2805
02:29:11,120 --> 02:29:15,320
Speaker 9: com if you want to. Yeah, that's that's not a joke.

2806
02:29:16,080 --> 02:29:18,240
Speaker 9: It's just a reflection on the sad person I am

2807
02:29:19,480 --> 02:29:21,000
Speaker 9: so yeah a Okay, are.

2808
02:29:20,920 --> 02:29:24,039
Speaker 4: You a long handled spork or regular spork? See?

2809
02:29:24,120 --> 02:29:26,520
Speaker 9: The long handled spook is nice for when you're going

2810
02:29:26,560 --> 02:29:29,119
Speaker 9: into an MRI type meal. How often you're going into

2811
02:29:29,120 --> 02:29:32,480
Speaker 9: an MRI type meal compared to like the pocketability.

2812
02:29:31,959 --> 02:29:32,879
Speaker 4: Of a normal spork.

2813
02:29:33,120 --> 02:29:36,280
Speaker 9: Right now, that makes sense to me. Yeah, the mr

2814
02:29:36,440 --> 02:29:40,320
Speaker 9: spoon is the best bargain eating device. It weighs six grams,

2815
02:29:40,360 --> 02:29:42,959
Speaker 9: which is less than a titanium spork. You can dip

2816
02:29:43,040 --> 02:29:45,680
Speaker 9: into hot water. It doesn't melt, it doesn't break like

2817
02:29:45,760 --> 02:29:48,040
Speaker 9: a like a traditional plastic like. It's not like a

2818
02:29:48,080 --> 02:29:51,280
Speaker 9: fast food plastic spoon. It's its best bang feed back

2819
02:29:51,320 --> 02:29:54,440
Speaker 9: when it comes to spoons. Okay, when I a shape,

2820
02:29:55,120 --> 02:29:57,280
Speaker 9: when I was when I was more of a crosspunk.

2821
02:29:58,120 --> 02:30:02,840
Speaker 4: Yeah. Always on my waist belt was a titanium spork

2822
02:30:03,000 --> 02:30:06,119
Speaker 4: with a P thirty eight can opener keychain to it. Yes,

2823
02:30:06,560 --> 02:30:08,920
Speaker 4: because no matter what, I could get into a can

2824
02:30:09,080 --> 02:30:10,000
Speaker 4: of Amy's chili.

2825
02:30:13,200 --> 02:30:16,360
Speaker 9: The amount of people I've seen I took camping lots.

2826
02:30:16,360 --> 02:30:18,240
Speaker 9: Sometimes I'll go with my trucks. Sometimes I go by

2827
02:30:18,280 --> 02:30:21,480
Speaker 9: myself on my feet. The amount of humans I've seen

2828
02:30:21,600 --> 02:30:25,080
Speaker 9: with very expensive overlanding setups trying to open a can

2829
02:30:25,160 --> 02:30:29,320
Speaker 9: of food on a rock. It's a lot of humans. Like, Yeah,

2830
02:30:29,480 --> 02:30:31,160
Speaker 9: a can opener is a very handy thing.

2831
02:30:31,280 --> 02:30:31,320
Speaker 6: No.

2832
02:30:31,440 --> 02:30:33,880
Speaker 4: And the P thirty eight or P fifty ones, these

2833
02:30:33,879 --> 02:30:37,120
Speaker 4: are the tiny military ones. They weigh nothing. They're like

2834
02:30:38,400 --> 02:30:40,800
Speaker 4: ten of them would fit on a credit card, you know.

2835
02:30:41,120 --> 02:30:43,800
Speaker 9: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I have pretty six my truck. But yeah,

2836
02:30:44,840 --> 02:30:49,120
Speaker 9: they're very small. In terms of other things I do,

2837
02:30:49,280 --> 02:30:52,160
Speaker 9: like zip ties, zip tize, very small, very handy. Yeah,

2838
02:30:52,360 --> 02:30:54,760
Speaker 9: you know, always fix it with zip ties. I'm just

2839
02:30:55,120 --> 02:30:56,640
Speaker 9: looking at this bag in front of me and thinking

2840
02:30:56,680 --> 02:30:57,240
Speaker 9: what else I have.

2841
02:30:57,400 --> 02:31:01,280
Speaker 4: That's remarkable. I save the day with zyptized when when

2842
02:31:01,320 --> 02:31:03,800
Speaker 4: I was driving in the woods with my friend when

2843
02:31:05,200 --> 02:31:07,280
Speaker 4: some part of her exhaust system fell off of her

2844
02:31:07,360 --> 02:31:09,760
Speaker 4: van and oh yeah, and I was like dragging on

2845
02:31:09,840 --> 02:31:12,200
Speaker 4: the ground. And I didn't normally carry ziptize, but my

2846
02:31:12,360 --> 02:31:14,880
Speaker 4: dad had always been like, ziptize they're amazing, and I

2847
02:31:14,959 --> 02:31:17,400
Speaker 4: was like, sure, dad, whatever, So like I had some

2848
02:31:17,560 --> 02:31:18,039
Speaker 4: in my truck.

2849
02:31:19,560 --> 02:31:22,199
Speaker 9: Yeah, very hand Gyptized and duct tape certainly in your vehicle.

2850
02:31:22,360 --> 02:31:26,879
Speaker 9: You can fix most stuff that wants fixing with ziptized

2851
02:31:26,920 --> 02:31:29,200
Speaker 9: and duct tape. I just like to wrap the handles

2852
02:31:29,240 --> 02:31:31,119
Speaker 9: of my stuff, Like I have a little bit lighter here,

2853
02:31:32,120 --> 02:31:33,720
Speaker 9: and I just wrap that induct tape and then I

2854
02:31:33,760 --> 02:31:34,480
Speaker 9: have the duct tape.

2855
02:31:34,560 --> 02:31:36,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I have the big lighter.

2856
02:31:36,480 --> 02:31:38,560
Speaker 9: Duct tape also is great tinder. You can start fire

2857
02:31:38,640 --> 02:31:43,080
Speaker 9: with it, so okay, really has many many uses.

2858
02:31:43,280 --> 02:31:45,080
Speaker 4: You can use one lighter to light the other lighter

2859
02:31:45,160 --> 02:31:47,959
Speaker 4: on fire. Yeah. Yeah. You could also take the tape

2860
02:31:47,959 --> 02:31:50,400
Speaker 4: off your lighter if you wanted to avoid lighting your lighter.

2861
02:31:50,480 --> 02:31:50,760
Speaker 4: All right.

2862
02:31:50,800 --> 02:31:52,280
Speaker 9: If you did light your lighter, you'll get a moment

2863
02:31:52,320 --> 02:31:55,560
Speaker 9: of excitement when it goes poof, yeah, unless you're holding it,

2864
02:31:55,600 --> 02:31:57,240
Speaker 9: which case you'll get a moment of pain.

2865
02:31:58,800 --> 02:31:59,720
Speaker 4: Which could be exciting.

2866
02:32:00,360 --> 02:32:03,320
Speaker 9: Yeah, it could be exciting. Hopefully you're close to a hospital. Yeah,

2867
02:32:04,000 --> 02:32:06,000
Speaker 9: and yeah, I like to carry it like a little

2868
02:32:06,000 --> 02:32:07,840
Speaker 9: pre made there's a I like to.

2869
02:32:08,320 --> 02:32:08,440
Speaker 8: I do.

2870
02:32:08,680 --> 02:32:11,320
Speaker 9: Like to vacuum seal stuff. It's the thing that I enjoy.

2871
02:32:11,959 --> 02:32:14,240
Speaker 9: I recently got a vacuum sealer, been getting really into it,

2872
02:32:15,120 --> 02:32:17,600
Speaker 9: so like I'll vacuum see your little packets of pills,

2873
02:32:17,720 --> 02:32:23,000
Speaker 9: little little plasters, band aids for American listeners, yeah, inter

2874
02:32:23,080 --> 02:32:25,400
Speaker 9: little packs and give them to people or keep them places.

2875
02:32:25,520 --> 02:32:28,080
Speaker 9: It maybe helps them with aging a little bit. But

2876
02:32:28,520 --> 02:32:30,440
Speaker 9: having a having a bag at that you could just

2877
02:32:30,520 --> 02:32:35,160
Speaker 9: open in an emergency. It's super handy. The other thing

2878
02:32:35,280 --> 02:32:39,240
Speaker 9: that I like, and largely this is just because I

2879
02:32:39,400 --> 02:32:42,480
Speaker 9: go to places and I have these tiny little fishing

2880
02:32:42,600 --> 02:32:46,840
Speaker 9: chem lights, like they're designed for certain fishing floats. They're

2881
02:32:46,879 --> 02:32:48,920
Speaker 9: very good if you need to like see something and

2882
02:32:49,000 --> 02:32:53,400
Speaker 9: so that's closed sticks for for the non tactical crowd yeah, yeah, yeah,

2883
02:32:53,560 --> 02:32:56,199
Speaker 9: or silooms for the British tactical crowd.

2884
02:32:57,360 --> 02:32:58,000
Speaker 4: They're very handy.

2885
02:32:58,040 --> 02:33:01,000
Speaker 9: You need to mark something at night, right, They're not

2886
02:33:01,120 --> 02:33:03,200
Speaker 9: going to be great for like I have flares in

2887
02:33:03,280 --> 02:33:05,160
Speaker 9: my car. My car breaks down in the dark grown

2888
02:33:05,160 --> 02:33:06,560
Speaker 9: and I don't want people to pile into the back

2889
02:33:06,560 --> 02:33:08,800
Speaker 9: of it. But for smaller things. You're going around a

2890
02:33:08,840 --> 02:33:11,320
Speaker 9: campsite and you want to be like, oh, like, you know,

2891
02:33:11,400 --> 02:33:16,480
Speaker 9: there's a a piece of rebar sticking out the ground here, right,

2892
02:33:16,520 --> 02:33:18,840
Speaker 9: you can crack one of those bad boys and light

2893
02:33:18,959 --> 02:33:19,200
Speaker 9: it up.

2894
02:33:19,560 --> 02:33:22,320
Speaker 4: No, that makes sense. They're also just a way to

2895
02:33:22,440 --> 02:33:23,840
Speaker 4: bamboozle young children.

2896
02:33:24,680 --> 02:33:26,680
Speaker 9: If you are around kids at night and you can

2897
02:33:27,040 --> 02:33:29,960
Speaker 9: suddenly make light appear, just make sure they don't eat them.

2898
02:33:30,080 --> 02:33:31,680
Speaker 4: Okay, But see, this actually gets to something that you

2899
02:33:31,800 --> 02:33:37,040
Speaker 4: brought up earlier. A lot of crisy situations, an awful

2900
02:33:37,120 --> 02:33:39,800
Speaker 4: lot of them you're not alone, and then an awful

2901
02:33:39,840 --> 02:33:44,320
Speaker 4: lot of them. Things like being able to entertain kids

2902
02:33:44,520 --> 02:33:48,119
Speaker 4: and things like that is like, yeah, a genuine need,

2903
02:33:48,520 --> 02:33:51,800
Speaker 4: like a very useful thing. And so like I know

2904
02:33:51,920 --> 02:33:54,160
Speaker 4: people who keep you know, like I mean usually people

2905
02:33:54,160 --> 02:33:56,040
Speaker 4: who have kids, but they keep a stuffed animal or

2906
02:33:56,080 --> 02:33:57,200
Speaker 4: something like that in their bag.

2907
02:33:58,520 --> 02:34:00,920
Speaker 9: Yeah, Like I was, so there are a load of

2908
02:34:00,959 --> 02:34:02,800
Speaker 9: children in these camps down the border, and that's very

2909
02:34:02,840 --> 02:34:05,760
Speaker 9: fucked up. But like I realized didn't have any toys,

2910
02:34:05,800 --> 02:34:08,199
Speaker 9: so I got loads of these tiny little stuffed animals

2911
02:34:08,240 --> 02:34:10,640
Speaker 9: that someone had donated. Like they're about the size of

2912
02:34:10,680 --> 02:34:13,560
Speaker 9: a golf ball. And it gave each child an animal right,

2913
02:34:13,640 --> 02:34:15,800
Speaker 9: so they could play with the little animals, and animals

2914
02:34:15,879 --> 02:34:17,160
Speaker 9: could be in community with each other.

2915
02:34:17,560 --> 02:34:18,480
Speaker 4: That's amazing. Yeah.

2916
02:34:18,879 --> 02:34:21,080
Speaker 9: Yeah, they were so pumped. And it wasn't just that

2917
02:34:21,120 --> 02:34:22,360
Speaker 9: the kids were like, yeah, I got a toy. The

2918
02:34:22,480 --> 02:34:26,920
Speaker 9: parents were like thank fuck, like they are so bored, right,

2919
02:34:27,040 --> 02:34:28,720
Speaker 9: or like I have a small finger puppet that I

2920
02:34:28,760 --> 02:34:31,400
Speaker 9: was using the other day to entertain them. I didn't

2921
02:34:31,400 --> 02:34:32,560
Speaker 9: where I found it. I found it in one of

2922
02:34:32,600 --> 02:34:34,600
Speaker 9: the vans we were using. Yeah, it's like a seal

2923
02:34:35,320 --> 02:34:38,520
Speaker 9: and something like that makes all the difference when you

2924
02:34:38,600 --> 02:34:41,720
Speaker 9: have nothing to do with your kids. And I guess,

2925
02:34:41,840 --> 02:34:44,400
Speaker 9: like along those lines, when I am bored, I have

2926
02:34:44,520 --> 02:34:46,280
Speaker 9: a kind lap on my phone. I think it works

2927
02:34:46,320 --> 02:34:49,080
Speaker 9: with all the phones obviously. Jeff Bezos is a bell end.

2928
02:34:49,200 --> 02:34:51,640
Speaker 9: But like that's age.

2929
02:34:51,959 --> 02:34:54,320
Speaker 4: It's a British word. Yeah, yes, it's a British word.

2930
02:34:54,440 --> 02:34:56,840
Speaker 4: We don't like beis. Yeah. It was the end of

2931
02:34:56,879 --> 02:34:58,080
Speaker 4: a dick the Tumescent Park.

2932
02:34:58,200 --> 02:35:02,320
Speaker 9: Yeah yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, for those who weren't clear

2933
02:35:02,400 --> 02:35:05,640
Speaker 9: in the audience, but yeah, Jeff bases a dick. But

2934
02:35:05,800 --> 02:35:08,680
Speaker 9: the kindlap is nice. You can also have PDFs of

2935
02:35:08,720 --> 02:35:13,280
Speaker 9: books on your phone. But it's again like I'm telling

2936
02:35:13,320 --> 02:35:15,720
Speaker 9: you from personal experience, when you're sitting in a giant

2937
02:35:15,800 --> 02:35:18,560
Speaker 9: warehouse with nothing to do for a few days. Somewhere,

2938
02:35:18,600 --> 02:35:20,400
Speaker 9: I have a picture of building a fort with this

2939
02:35:20,560 --> 02:35:23,520
Speaker 9: little you know, she's like three or four, you know,

2940
02:35:23,600 --> 02:35:26,240
Speaker 9: and have folks who had come, folks were refugees and

2941
02:35:26,280 --> 02:35:28,280
Speaker 9: we were just bored. We built a four out of

2942
02:35:28,360 --> 02:35:33,440
Speaker 9: miler blankets. But someone had an inflatable ball which we

2943
02:35:33,600 --> 02:35:36,199
Speaker 9: just played with for hours because you're so bored.

2944
02:35:36,360 --> 02:35:36,560
Speaker 2: Yeah.

2945
02:35:36,840 --> 02:35:38,800
Speaker 4: So yeah, just having like.

2946
02:35:39,200 --> 02:35:41,160
Speaker 9: An app on your phone where you can read books,

2947
02:35:41,520 --> 02:35:43,880
Speaker 9: it's probably going to be more useful to you than

2948
02:35:44,040 --> 02:35:45,879
Speaker 9: that shore barrowed rifle that you had to pay two

2949
02:35:45,920 --> 02:35:47,760
Speaker 9: hundred dollars tax stamp and that effects come into your

2950
02:35:47,800 --> 02:35:48,160
Speaker 9: house for.

2951
02:35:48,400 --> 02:35:52,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, every every crosspunk, I know, you always carry what

2952
02:35:52,160 --> 02:35:54,879
Speaker 4: you need, and then you carry something and you almost

2953
02:35:54,959 --> 02:35:58,040
Speaker 4: like set your personality around this. Like like I knew

2954
02:35:58,040 --> 02:36:00,040
Speaker 4: a guy who was not an ultra lighter and his

2955
02:36:00,160 --> 02:36:05,480
Speaker 4: name was Pogo Dave and a fucking stick, Yeah, an

2956
02:36:05,600 --> 02:36:10,760
Speaker 4: old metal like rusted pogo stick and I almost broke

2957
02:36:10,840 --> 02:36:13,840
Speaker 4: my knee with that thing. Oh yeah, in the middle

2958
02:36:13,840 --> 02:36:14,320
Speaker 4: of nowhere.

2959
02:36:15,000 --> 02:36:17,360
Speaker 9: Yeah, I don't know if younger listeners will be familiar

2960
02:36:17,400 --> 02:36:20,240
Speaker 9: with the pogos. I think that's like, do you think

2961
02:36:20,280 --> 02:36:21,320
Speaker 9: the zoom is in the audio?

2962
02:36:21,400 --> 02:36:25,200
Speaker 4: I have no idea there. They're probably looking up yeah

2963
02:36:25,720 --> 02:36:28,640
Speaker 4: and yeah and so having something. And it's funny too,

2964
02:36:28,640 --> 02:36:30,800
Speaker 4: because every like prepper manuals, like and a deck of

2965
02:36:30,959 --> 02:36:34,000
Speaker 4: cards and this is like technically true, but I'll tell

2966
02:36:34,000 --> 02:36:36,640
Speaker 4: you what. People actually plays hot dice, having some like

2967
02:36:36,760 --> 02:36:39,640
Speaker 4: six sided dice to play this really annoying game called

2968
02:36:39,680 --> 02:36:44,199
Speaker 4: hot dice, or like bring some D and D dice

2969
02:36:44,360 --> 02:36:46,760
Speaker 4: and just start playing like role playing games with people.

2970
02:36:47,200 --> 02:36:50,640
Speaker 4: You know, Like there's like having the entertainment things and

2971
02:36:50,680 --> 02:36:53,840
Speaker 4: then the other thing. I think it's really worth considering

2972
02:36:53,920 --> 02:36:57,680
Speaker 4: having a small musical instrument. I find that, like there's

2973
02:36:57,720 --> 02:37:02,720
Speaker 4: a reason that cross punks play music everywhere they go. Yeah,

2974
02:37:02,959 --> 02:37:04,480
Speaker 4: are you about to pull out harmonica?

2975
02:37:04,879 --> 02:37:07,600
Speaker 9: I have a harmonica in a pistol magazine pouch that

2976
02:37:07,680 --> 02:37:09,400
Speaker 9: I take on the side of my bag when I

2977
02:37:09,480 --> 02:37:12,480
Speaker 9: go to places. Hell yeah, yeah, we took me so

2978
02:37:12,840 --> 02:37:14,360
Speaker 9: when rub It I did on the Amo Trape, but

2979
02:37:14,360 --> 02:37:17,039
Speaker 9: I left my harmonica with the people who you're going

2980
02:37:17,120 --> 02:37:18,800
Speaker 9: to hit singing at the start of our show. They

2981
02:37:18,840 --> 02:37:20,959
Speaker 9: played their guitars and sung for us cool. I left

2982
02:37:21,000 --> 02:37:24,320
Speaker 9: them the harmonica and they play it now, yes, harmonica,

2983
02:37:24,800 --> 02:37:26,000
Speaker 9: and then go harmonica.

2984
02:37:26,280 --> 02:37:28,400
Speaker 4: The one thing that I have in my bug up

2985
02:37:28,400 --> 02:37:30,560
Speaker 4: bag that's a little bit extra, but I swear by

2986
02:37:31,440 --> 02:37:35,560
Speaker 4: I have a Nintendo Switch and a bunch of physical

2987
02:37:35,800 --> 02:37:40,240
Speaker 4: game cartridges for it. Because when twenty twenty hit, I

2988
02:37:40,320 --> 02:37:41,840
Speaker 4: lived in the cabin in the middle of nowhere. I

2989
02:37:41,920 --> 02:37:44,280
Speaker 4: was off grid, I barely had any electricity. I basically

2990
02:37:44,360 --> 02:37:45,840
Speaker 4: had to walk half a mile to my car and

2991
02:37:46,000 --> 02:37:48,000
Speaker 4: like charge things in my car for a while until

2992
02:37:48,000 --> 02:37:51,360
Speaker 4: I got together enough money to get some solar panels

2993
02:37:51,400 --> 02:37:53,280
Speaker 4: and some batteries and stuff, right, because I had not

2994
02:37:53,440 --> 02:37:55,720
Speaker 4: planned on having my cabin be suddenly where I lived

2995
02:37:57,040 --> 02:38:00,600
Speaker 4: well like full time, not going anywhere else lived. And

2996
02:38:01,720 --> 02:38:04,959
Speaker 4: the first thing I got was a little tiny it's

2997
02:38:05,000 --> 02:38:08,480
Speaker 4: called a bit boy, and it is a like tiny

2998
02:38:08,720 --> 02:38:13,080
Speaker 4: game boy that has every single Nintendo and Super Nintendo

2999
02:38:13,120 --> 02:38:18,120
Speaker 4: and Psychogenesis game pirated onto it. Oh wow, and immediately

3000
02:38:18,240 --> 02:38:21,400
Speaker 4: ordering that off to the podcast and it costs like

3001
02:38:21,760 --> 02:38:23,520
Speaker 4: forty I don't know much they cost now, but they're

3002
02:38:23,560 --> 02:38:26,240
Speaker 4: not expensive because they're little weird three D printed pirated

3003
02:38:26,320 --> 02:38:32,720
Speaker 4: things and they like use almost no electricity and so

3004
02:38:33,120 --> 02:38:35,880
Speaker 4: it uses way less electricity in a cell phone and

3005
02:38:36,000 --> 02:38:39,320
Speaker 4: that saved my sanity. And then when I finally got

3006
02:38:39,360 --> 02:38:41,400
Speaker 4: my shit together enough to get a Nintendo switch and

3007
02:38:41,480 --> 02:38:44,360
Speaker 4: I could play Skyrim, like and it's not that I

3008
02:38:44,560 --> 02:38:46,240
Speaker 4: had nothing to do. People are like, oh, you don't

3009
02:38:46,240 --> 02:38:49,480
Speaker 4: need to entertain yourself in crisis because you're busy. It's like, look,

3010
02:38:49,520 --> 02:38:53,920
Speaker 4: you can probably only physically work on building your house

3011
02:38:54,120 --> 02:38:56,280
Speaker 4: to get it ready for the apocalypse. You think you're

3012
02:38:56,320 --> 02:39:00,320
Speaker 4: living in for maybe fourteen hours a day, you know,

3013
02:39:00,760 --> 02:39:02,680
Speaker 4: maybe ten to fourteen hours.

3014
02:39:03,480 --> 02:39:05,520
Speaker 9: Yeah, and if you don't do manual labor right now,

3015
02:39:05,640 --> 02:39:06,800
Speaker 9: then it might be a little lesson.

3016
02:39:06,959 --> 02:39:13,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, Like you have downtime, not always in every situation,

3017
02:39:13,560 --> 02:39:17,560
Speaker 4: but like injured need to sit around and do something

3018
02:39:17,720 --> 02:39:21,800
Speaker 4: or you'll you know, like like entertainment is like actually

3019
02:39:21,959 --> 02:39:26,480
Speaker 4: really useful. Yes, And if you bring a paperback, and

3020
02:39:26,520 --> 02:39:31,920
Speaker 4: I recommend it, bring one that you've already read because

3021
02:39:31,920 --> 02:39:34,640
Speaker 4: you know you like it. I like, normally don't reread

3022
02:39:34,680 --> 02:39:37,320
Speaker 4: books all that much, but when I need to turn

3023
02:39:37,400 --> 02:39:40,440
Speaker 4: my brain off, a book that you've already read, for

3024
02:39:40,520 --> 02:39:43,240
Speaker 4: a lot of people is going to do better. And

3025
02:39:43,320 --> 02:39:45,600
Speaker 4: if you haven't, So you should get a jump start

3026
02:39:45,680 --> 02:39:46,560
Speaker 4: on this by reading.

3027
02:39:46,680 --> 02:39:46,880
Speaker 2: Eh.

3028
02:39:47,480 --> 02:39:50,720
Speaker 4: My book is Stay There in ceul Island a magnificent

3029
02:39:50,959 --> 02:39:52,200
Speaker 4: All right, thanks? Yeah?

3030
02:39:52,240 --> 02:39:54,480
Speaker 9: Yeah, so so you can do the table tip roleplaying

3031
02:39:54,520 --> 02:39:55,119
Speaker 9: game that we did.

3032
02:39:55,720 --> 02:39:58,279
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, there's an Escape from Insul Island tabletop roleplaying

3033
02:39:58,280 --> 02:40:00,240
Speaker 4: game that's coming out next year. Well, there's this little

3034
02:40:00,280 --> 02:40:02,080
Speaker 4: zen version of it that I think you can download now,

3035
02:40:02,120 --> 02:40:04,920
Speaker 4: but it's going to be slightly better. Yeah, I could

3036
02:40:05,000 --> 02:40:06,160
Speaker 4: keep that in your bag.

3037
02:40:06,240 --> 02:40:07,560
Speaker 9: The other thing I was going to plug that I

3038
02:40:07,600 --> 02:40:10,480
Speaker 9: forgot about was download the Google Maps onto your phone

3039
02:40:11,560 --> 02:40:15,560
Speaker 9: or whatever brand apps you want, maps you want, and

3040
02:40:16,000 --> 02:40:20,880
Speaker 9: have a watch that that doesn't need a battery. I

3041
02:40:20,920 --> 02:40:23,520
Speaker 9: think that's super handy. You can use the watch to

3042
02:40:23,600 --> 02:40:26,480
Speaker 9: tell the direction of south, which what I'll seek if

3043
02:40:26,480 --> 02:40:28,480
Speaker 9: you other compass directions if you really need to.

3044
02:40:28,600 --> 02:40:29,840
Speaker 4: But you can tell the time.

3045
02:40:30,280 --> 02:40:32,920
Speaker 9: You would again be surprised, how like people might imagine

3046
02:40:32,959 --> 02:40:35,320
Speaker 9: that after X happens, say it needs to tell the times.

3047
02:40:35,400 --> 02:40:37,280
Speaker 9: It won't matter. You probably will need to tell the

3048
02:40:37,360 --> 02:40:40,480
Speaker 9: time in most of your crises, you know, even to

3049
02:40:40,560 --> 02:40:42,680
Speaker 9: know if something has happened or it's not happened, right,

3050
02:40:42,879 --> 02:40:45,840
Speaker 9: And so being able to do that is very handy,

3051
02:40:46,000 --> 02:40:48,400
Speaker 9: and having a watch that powers itself is a way

3052
02:40:48,440 --> 02:40:48,680
Speaker 9: to do that.

3053
02:40:49,000 --> 02:40:52,560
Speaker 4: No, that makes sense. I use one that doesn't power itself,

3054
02:40:52,600 --> 02:40:54,960
Speaker 4: but it like lasts three weeks or so on. I'll

3055
02:40:55,080 --> 02:40:58,640
Speaker 4: charge and like vaguely charges itself from the sun, but

3056
02:40:58,720 --> 02:41:02,280
Speaker 4: not very efficiently. There's also and I know there's like

3057
02:41:03,080 --> 02:41:05,000
Speaker 4: now we're getting into the weeds. Okay, here's the other pitch.

3058
02:41:06,000 --> 02:41:10,800
Speaker 4: It's fun when besides doing the basics, you can nerd

3059
02:41:10,840 --> 02:41:13,560
Speaker 4: out about it, and you can do it cheaply. Because

3060
02:41:13,640 --> 02:41:16,760
Speaker 4: nerding out about it is free. You can find your

3061
02:41:16,800 --> 02:41:18,600
Speaker 4: other friends that want to talk about this bullshit and

3062
02:41:18,680 --> 02:41:20,800
Speaker 4: talk about with this bullshit. You don't have to go

3063
02:41:20,920 --> 02:41:24,280
Speaker 4: out and buy fancy crazy shit. Sometimes you want the

3064
02:41:24,320 --> 02:41:26,920
Speaker 4: fancy crazy shit, but most of the stuff we're talking

3065
02:41:26,959 --> 02:41:30,800
Speaker 4: about is super cheap, and then you can have the

3066
02:41:30,959 --> 02:41:33,080
Speaker 4: joy of talking about the shit and getting into the

3067
02:41:33,120 --> 02:41:36,560
Speaker 4: weeds with it. But there's a there's an app I

3068
02:41:36,600 --> 02:41:39,760
Speaker 4: think it's called Keywix, and it lets you download Wikipedia

3069
02:41:40,840 --> 02:41:44,400
Speaker 4: and read it on your phone offline. Yeah, that would

3070
02:41:44,400 --> 02:41:44,640
Speaker 4: be good.

3071
02:41:45,280 --> 02:41:47,080
Speaker 9: I've just remembered one more thing that Marker and I

3072
02:41:47,200 --> 02:41:49,760
Speaker 9: talked about off Michael a while ago, because this is

3073
02:41:49,800 --> 02:41:50,720
Speaker 9: the kind of people we are.

3074
02:41:50,879 --> 02:41:52,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's called bank line.

3075
02:41:53,840 --> 02:41:56,720
Speaker 9: Oh yeah, yeah, so the tactical crowd of very enter

3076
02:41:56,760 --> 02:41:59,880
Speaker 9: power cord because it's a little bit stronger and you

3077
02:42:00,120 --> 02:42:02,040
Speaker 9: pick out the inside lines and stuff. It's also very

3078
02:42:02,080 --> 02:42:05,480
Speaker 9: shiny and could be annoying to not sometimes if you

3079
02:42:05,600 --> 02:42:08,680
Speaker 9: get some bank line and you need to construct a shelter,

3080
02:42:08,760 --> 02:42:12,280
Speaker 9: which is relatively unlikely, you can. If you need to

3081
02:42:12,360 --> 02:42:14,280
Speaker 9: repair your clothes and you have a needle, you can

3082
02:42:14,360 --> 02:42:16,760
Speaker 9: pick it apart and use it for that. But if

3083
02:42:16,800 --> 02:42:21,400
Speaker 9: you're bored, like everyone should know a few knots, you know,

3084
02:42:21,560 --> 02:42:23,920
Speaker 9: if you know how to do like a I guess

3085
02:42:24,160 --> 02:42:26,240
Speaker 9: figure eight, not if you know how to do a

3086
02:42:26,360 --> 02:42:30,119
Speaker 9: truck has hitched a bowl and knot and you're probably

3087
02:42:30,160 --> 02:42:31,800
Speaker 9: pretty good if you could do those, honestly, Like, you

3088
02:42:31,840 --> 02:42:34,680
Speaker 9: can do a lot of stuff to a justice prussic,

3089
02:42:34,879 --> 02:42:36,240
Speaker 9: maybe another friction hitch.

3090
02:42:36,520 --> 02:42:38,360
Speaker 4: You can practice those when you're bought. It's fun.

3091
02:42:38,560 --> 02:42:40,440
Speaker 9: It's okay. It may not be as fun for you

3092
02:42:40,520 --> 02:42:42,480
Speaker 9: as it is for me because I'm that kind of person.

3093
02:42:43,240 --> 02:42:46,920
Speaker 9: But if you like to learn stuff and then you

3094
02:42:46,959 --> 02:42:49,080
Speaker 9: can share that with someone else, right, it's fun to

3095
02:42:49,120 --> 02:42:50,960
Speaker 9: teach people and then they can teach you a couple

3096
02:42:51,600 --> 02:42:54,840
Speaker 9: I have taught and learned not from people from half

3097
02:42:54,840 --> 02:42:56,520
Speaker 9: a dozen nationalities in the last month.

3098
02:42:56,680 --> 02:42:58,560
Speaker 4: And it's fun anyway. It's cool to share.

3099
02:42:58,600 --> 02:43:01,240
Speaker 9: It's also like when you're in a situation being like, huh,

3100
02:43:01,640 --> 02:43:03,400
Speaker 9: having a moment where you're not thinking about the ship

3101
02:43:03,440 --> 02:43:05,080
Speaker 9: situation instead of thinking about that's cool.

3102
02:43:05,120 --> 02:43:05,680
Speaker 4: I learned that not.

3103
02:43:06,080 --> 02:43:09,480
Speaker 9: Yeah, it's very nice actually and so yeah, like a

3104
02:43:09,560 --> 02:43:12,840
Speaker 9: Brazilian rodeo guy taught me a couple of knots that's cool.

3105
02:43:12,920 --> 02:43:15,199
Speaker 9: The other day, Yeah, it was sweet. We were helping

3106
02:43:15,560 --> 02:43:19,039
Speaker 9: We had dumpster dive some tents that Susan g coheman

3107
02:43:19,160 --> 02:43:22,440
Speaker 9: was throwing away, and so we were helping put those

3108
02:43:22,560 --> 02:43:25,240
Speaker 9: up and in one case we had their fly sheet

3109
02:43:25,240 --> 02:43:27,320
Speaker 9: but not the tent, so we were trying to work

3110
02:43:27,360 --> 02:43:29,360
Speaker 9: out how to make them to the top. Did some

3111
02:43:29,400 --> 02:43:30,000
Speaker 9: different knots.

3112
02:43:30,280 --> 02:43:30,840
Speaker 4: It was fun.

3113
02:43:31,520 --> 02:43:34,240
Speaker 9: And bank line is cheaper than para cord. Probably don't

3114
02:43:34,280 --> 02:43:37,080
Speaker 9: need the paracord with a fishing line inside. In ninety

3115
02:43:37,200 --> 02:43:40,800
Speaker 9: nine percent of circumstances to get some bank line number

3116
02:43:40,840 --> 02:43:42,119
Speaker 9: thirty six bank line.

3117
02:43:42,080 --> 02:43:45,760
Speaker 4: Okay, and then the other the cross punk challenges. You

3118
02:43:45,879 --> 02:43:49,200
Speaker 4: just start fixing your clothes at dental floss. Oh yeah,

3119
02:43:49,440 --> 02:43:51,160
Speaker 4: the gloss is great for that. Yeah, yeah, yea.

3120
02:43:51,160 --> 02:43:53,119
Speaker 9: I get a sale needle and dental floss and you'll

3121
02:43:53,120 --> 02:43:53,920
Speaker 9: smell minty fresh.

3122
02:43:55,120 --> 02:43:57,400
Speaker 4: Yeah. And when I make my emergency kits, I take

3123
02:43:57,520 --> 02:44:01,520
Speaker 4: little they're sort of sewing new needle vials. I like

3124
02:44:01,600 --> 02:44:04,000
Speaker 4: them better than the little slidey kits where everything gets

3125
02:44:04,040 --> 02:44:07,440
Speaker 4: lost all the time. Yeah, And I just get these

3126
02:44:07,520 --> 02:44:10,080
Speaker 4: little tiny vials. They're clear so everyone knows what's in it.

3127
02:44:10,320 --> 02:44:13,120
Speaker 4: And I put safety pins, regular sewing needles, and leather

3128
02:44:13,200 --> 02:44:16,040
Speaker 4: sewing needles into them. And then when you're sewing with leather.

3129
02:44:16,360 --> 02:44:19,200
Speaker 4: The other thing that I recommend people carry it Okay,

3130
02:44:19,280 --> 02:44:22,039
Speaker 4: Like in two thousand and three, if you are a crustpunk,

3131
02:44:22,160 --> 02:44:24,680
Speaker 4: the things you need to have on you are at

3132
02:44:24,720 --> 02:44:27,920
Speaker 4: all times. You need a folding knife, you need a headlamp,

3133
02:44:28,320 --> 02:44:31,600
Speaker 4: you need a multi tool with pliers, and you need

3134
02:44:31,640 --> 02:44:34,680
Speaker 4: a sleeping bag and like and a spork and a

3135
02:44:34,760 --> 02:44:38,320
Speaker 4: can opener. Yeah, and that's kind of it in a

3136
02:44:38,400 --> 02:44:38,920
Speaker 4: lot of ways.

3137
02:44:39,680 --> 02:44:42,520
Speaker 9: Yeah, don't combine those things, do it. Be the person

3138
02:44:42,640 --> 02:44:44,920
Speaker 9: with the spark multi tool now, because you'll get beans

3139
02:44:44,959 --> 02:44:46,400
Speaker 9: in your knife and fucking.

3140
02:44:46,280 --> 02:44:48,720
Speaker 4: Well, actually that's called a hobo tool. There actually are

3141
02:44:48,840 --> 02:44:53,040
Speaker 4: multi tools that are but oh sorry, spork then it's

3142
02:44:53,040 --> 02:44:54,800
Speaker 4: a spoon and a night it's a spoon and on

3143
02:44:54,879 --> 02:44:58,120
Speaker 4: one side and for yeah, yeah, yeah, those suck. Don't

3144
02:44:58,400 --> 02:45:02,000
Speaker 4: anything that folds. Anything that folds, you should keep it

3145
02:45:02,000 --> 02:45:05,680
Speaker 4: away from food. Your folding knife is going to get

3146
02:45:05,760 --> 02:45:09,240
Speaker 4: so gross. I mean, you'll do it anyway, but I

3147
02:45:09,320 --> 02:45:11,000
Speaker 4: think we're kind of probably at time.

3148
02:45:12,080 --> 02:45:14,560
Speaker 9: Yeah, yeah, I could keep going. That's going to get tweezs.

3149
02:45:14,600 --> 02:45:16,520
Speaker 9: But okay, yeah, this is enough stuff.

3150
02:45:16,680 --> 02:45:19,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, if you want to hear more of this kind

3151
02:45:19,840 --> 02:45:24,120
Speaker 4: of content, yeah, Margot, just a whole other podcast. Oh

3152
02:45:24,160 --> 02:45:25,400
Speaker 4: I was going to say to you that I'd trick

3153
02:45:25,480 --> 02:45:27,360
Speaker 4: them into having me on to talk about this stuff more.

3154
02:45:27,400 --> 02:45:29,360
Speaker 9: But yeah, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, we'll have you back.

3155
02:45:29,440 --> 02:45:31,800
Speaker 9: We'll do a whole other one film. But Margaret also

3156
02:45:31,840 --> 02:45:33,840
Speaker 9: has a whole other podcast which you should listen to.

3157
02:45:33,959 --> 02:45:35,440
Speaker 9: What's it cool and where can people find it?

3158
02:45:35,520 --> 02:45:37,240
Speaker 4: Margaret? Well, okay, so the Prepper one is called Live

3159
02:45:37,320 --> 02:45:40,360
Speaker 4: Like the World Is Dying. Your podcast whar it Feels

3160
02:45:40,400 --> 02:45:42,520
Speaker 4: Like the End Times? It comes out every Friday. And

3161
02:45:43,080 --> 02:45:45,320
Speaker 4: I also have a cool Zone Media podcast called cool

3162
02:45:45,320 --> 02:45:48,320
Speaker 4: People It's Cool stuff where I talk about history and

3163
02:45:48,920 --> 02:45:52,760
Speaker 4: about cool people who did cool stuff. And James has

3164
02:45:52,800 --> 02:45:55,280
Speaker 4: been on both of these podcasts. So if you want

3165
02:45:55,320 --> 02:45:57,680
Speaker 4: to hear us continue to banter about things, there's so

3166
02:45:57,800 --> 02:45:59,680
Speaker 4: many more available options available to you.

3167
02:46:01,080 --> 02:46:05,040
Speaker 9: Yeah, maybe download them for those terrible times when you

3168
02:46:05,160 --> 02:46:07,000
Speaker 9: when you just need the calming voice of Ma and

3169
02:46:07,080 --> 02:46:08,160
Speaker 9: Margaret talking about bags.

3170
02:46:08,240 --> 02:46:12,000
Speaker 4: That's right, well, just to like just to like, it's okay,

3171
02:46:12,760 --> 02:46:15,440
Speaker 4: you're going to get through this. I know that things

3172
02:46:15,440 --> 02:46:20,280
Speaker 4: seem bad right now, and they are bad, but it's okay.

3173
02:46:22,080 --> 02:46:24,640
Speaker 4: We'll just still an hour of that. Yeah, yeah, to

3174
02:46:24,680 --> 02:46:26,200
Speaker 4: an hour of that. I'm proud of you.

3175
02:46:26,640 --> 02:46:32,000
Speaker 9: Yeah totally yeah, yeah yeah, we will be your anarchist affirmations.

3176
02:46:32,080 --> 02:46:32,280
Speaker 3: Yeah.

3177
02:46:33,320 --> 02:46:36,280
Speaker 9: That's another podcast. This has been it could happen here.

3178
02:46:36,360 --> 02:46:36,960
Speaker 9: Thank you, Margaret.

3179
02:46:37,120 --> 02:46:37,640
Speaker 4: That was wonderful.

3180
02:46:54,240 --> 02:46:59,480
Speaker 7: Hello, it's Sharene. Welcome to the pod. I'm back to

3181
02:46:59,520 --> 02:47:03,280
Speaker 7: talk about you guessed it Palestine because we need to

3182
02:47:03,360 --> 02:47:07,240
Speaker 7: keep talking about it. There is still a ongoing genocide

3183
02:47:07,320 --> 02:47:11,320
Speaker 7: happening in Gaza, and if you ask me, a slower

3184
02:47:11,400 --> 02:47:13,920
Speaker 7: genocide that's been happening for the last seventy five years

3185
02:47:14,080 --> 02:47:19,720
Speaker 7: in Palestine. And there are so many aspects of history

3186
02:47:20,160 --> 02:47:24,199
Speaker 7: and of what's currently happening that are worth delving into. Today,

3187
02:47:24,320 --> 02:47:27,680
Speaker 7: I wanted to focus on a new investigation by plus

3188
02:47:27,959 --> 02:47:31,480
Speaker 7: nine seven to two magazine, and this is an investigation

3189
02:47:31,560 --> 02:47:34,680
Speaker 7: that was confirmed by the Guardian, and it reveals that

3190
02:47:34,840 --> 02:47:39,920
Speaker 7: Israel is deliberately killing large numbers of Palestinian civilians in Gaza.

3191
02:47:40,920 --> 02:47:43,480
Speaker 7: Nita remind you that the Palestinian population in Gaza is

3192
02:47:43,600 --> 02:47:47,760
Speaker 7: mostly women and children. Does it mean that palestine men

3193
02:47:47,800 --> 02:47:50,560
Speaker 7: are disposable because they are not. That is something I

3194
02:47:50,640 --> 02:47:54,640
Speaker 7: do reject about constantly saying women and children. It's only

3195
02:47:54,680 --> 02:47:57,560
Speaker 7: because I think it reinforces the idea that every Palestinian

3196
02:47:57,640 --> 02:48:01,800
Speaker 7: man could potentially be a terrorist. Really, they are the

3197
02:48:01,879 --> 02:48:04,840
Speaker 7: ones pulling people out of the rubble and treating them

3198
02:48:04,879 --> 02:48:10,039
Speaker 7: in the hospitals, and Palestinian men are incredible, so their

3199
02:48:10,160 --> 02:48:14,560
Speaker 7: loss is just as tragic. My point is, though, that

3200
02:48:16,000 --> 02:48:19,680
Speaker 7: I keep seeing Israeli officials on news outlets and everything

3201
02:48:20,520 --> 02:48:24,320
Speaker 7: spewing lies and bullshit about how the IOF is trying

3202
02:48:24,400 --> 02:48:27,320
Speaker 7: everything they can to avoid civilian death, and that is

3203
02:48:27,440 --> 02:48:30,600
Speaker 7: just simply not true. And now there is definitive proof

3204
02:48:30,760 --> 02:48:34,720
Speaker 7: that it's not true with this investigation. As of it's recording,

3205
02:48:34,879 --> 02:48:37,600
Speaker 7: the death toll in Gaza has risen to over twenty

3206
02:48:37,640 --> 02:48:42,000
Speaker 7: one thousand people. This number includes those who are presumed

3207
02:48:42,040 --> 02:48:45,520
Speaker 7: to be dead underneath the rubble. At this point, the

3208
02:48:45,600 --> 02:48:49,000
Speaker 7: number of killed and displaced Palestinians as higher than the

3209
02:48:49,080 --> 02:48:52,240
Speaker 7: number of killed and displaced Palestinians during the Nekaba of

3210
02:48:52,360 --> 02:48:58,279
Speaker 7: nineteen forty eight. Right now, almost one point nine million Palestinians,

3211
02:48:58,520 --> 02:49:02,160
Speaker 7: which makes up about eighty of Gaza's entire population, have

3212
02:49:02,400 --> 02:49:06,960
Speaker 7: been displaced. I really want you guys to absorb what

3213
02:49:07,120 --> 02:49:11,720
Speaker 7: that means to eclipse the numbers of the Nekba in

3214
02:49:11,800 --> 02:49:16,040
Speaker 7: nineteen forty eight, which is the catastrophe that coincides with

3215
02:49:16,120 --> 02:49:19,000
Speaker 7: the establishment of the State of Israel, which up till

3216
02:49:19,040 --> 02:49:23,199
Speaker 7: this point was the greatest act of terrorism against Palestinian people.

3217
02:49:24,080 --> 02:49:26,480
Speaker 7: So the fact that we have eclipsed the numbers of

3218
02:49:26,520 --> 02:49:30,200
Speaker 7: the Nekba, which amounts to about seven hundred and fifty

3219
02:49:30,280 --> 02:49:33,920
Speaker 7: thousand Palestinians being displaced and about fifteen thousand people dead.

3220
02:49:34,440 --> 02:49:37,800
Speaker 7: To have eclipsed those numbers in about two months is

3221
02:49:38,000 --> 02:49:42,280
Speaker 7: truly horrific, and I hope that comes across when you

3222
02:49:42,400 --> 02:49:46,560
Speaker 7: hear these numbers. Humanitarian organizations that once warned the world

3223
02:49:46,680 --> 02:49:50,320
Speaker 7: of an impending catastrophe in Gaza, are now describing an apocalypse.

3224
02:49:50,760 --> 02:49:54,680
Speaker 7: The UN Humanitarian Chief said the situation in Gaza is apocalyptic.

3225
02:49:55,560 --> 02:49:59,320
Speaker 7: Israel's relentless bombing of Palestinian society has taken it past

3226
02:49:59,400 --> 02:50:03,360
Speaker 7: the point of collapse. Bombs are still falling as winter

3227
02:50:03,560 --> 02:50:08,360
Speaker 7: draws near, and millions of Palestinians are starving, dehydrated, sick,

3228
02:50:08,720 --> 02:50:13,600
Speaker 7: and living in unsuitable and unsustainable conditions and shelters. In

3229
02:50:13,680 --> 02:50:17,000
Speaker 7: addition to this, all cell service in northern Gaza is down.

3230
02:50:17,480 --> 02:50:20,560
Speaker 7: Palestinians can't contact their loved ones and they can't share

3231
02:50:20,640 --> 02:50:22,800
Speaker 7: the reality of what is going on on the ground.

3232
02:50:23,800 --> 02:50:27,320
Speaker 7: Cutting internet access and service is a very deliberate act

3233
02:50:27,400 --> 02:50:30,960
Speaker 7: on Israel's part to silence people the same way they've

3234
02:50:31,000 --> 02:50:34,600
Speaker 7: been targeting and killing journalists. Israel does not want the

3235
02:50:34,680 --> 02:50:38,000
Speaker 7: world to see the truth, and cutting internet access is

3236
02:50:38,040 --> 02:50:41,120
Speaker 7: a great way for them to avoid this. Keep in

3237
02:50:41,240 --> 02:50:44,600
Speaker 7: mind that news outlets are not allowed in Gaza, so

3238
02:50:44,840 --> 02:50:47,680
Speaker 7: the Palestinian journalists on the ground, most of whom are

3239
02:50:47,879 --> 02:50:51,320
Speaker 7: very young in their early twenties, they are the ones

3240
02:50:51,360 --> 02:50:54,160
Speaker 7: being targeted because they're the ones showing the truth with

3241
02:50:54,280 --> 02:50:57,920
Speaker 7: their photos and videos and activism and news. So I

3242
02:50:58,000 --> 02:51:00,600
Speaker 7: want you guys to keep in mind how deliberate everything

3243
02:51:00,720 --> 02:51:04,480
Speaker 7: Israel does is when it comes to cutting internet, food,

3244
02:51:05,320 --> 02:51:08,520
Speaker 7: water from Gaza, it is deliberately starving and cutting off

3245
02:51:08,600 --> 02:51:14,120
Speaker 7: these people. Nowhere in Gaza is safe. Israel is bombing everywhere,

3246
02:51:14,440 --> 02:51:17,280
Speaker 7: including the areas they tell Palestinians to go to to

3247
02:51:17,360 --> 02:51:20,959
Speaker 7: find safety from the bombs. So there are no safe zones.

3248
02:51:21,000 --> 02:51:25,400
Speaker 7: Regardless of what Israeli officials are telling us. Everywhere is

3249
02:51:25,600 --> 02:51:30,320
Speaker 7: unsafe because Israel is bombing everything, including the areas they're

3250
02:51:30,320 --> 02:51:33,640
Speaker 7: supposed to go to for safety. Israel is not trying

3251
02:51:33,840 --> 02:51:37,480
Speaker 7: in the slightest to avoid civilian casualties. And that's what

3252
02:51:37,520 --> 02:51:41,240
Speaker 7: we're going to talk about today. So this investigation is

3253
02:51:41,320 --> 02:51:44,240
Speaker 7: based on conversations with current and former members of the

3254
02:51:44,320 --> 02:51:47,960
Speaker 7: Israeli intelligence community, as well as reports from Palestinians and

3255
02:51:48,080 --> 02:51:53,320
Speaker 7: independent data. It explains how destroying Palestinian homes and society

3256
02:51:53,400 --> 02:51:56,840
Speaker 7: and the process of killing Palaestinian civilians is very deliberate

3257
02:51:56,920 --> 02:52:00,400
Speaker 7: as well. It explains the tactics Israel has used to

3258
02:52:00,520 --> 02:52:03,760
Speaker 7: kill Palestinians at an accelerated rate during the past two months,

3259
02:52:04,080 --> 02:52:08,280
Speaker 7: which amounts to a clear cutcase of genocide as well

3260
02:52:08,320 --> 02:52:12,120
Speaker 7: as genocidal intent. I truly can't believe there are still

3261
02:52:12,320 --> 02:52:15,280
Speaker 7: so many people in denial that what is going on

3262
02:52:15,400 --> 02:52:19,000
Speaker 7: in Palestine is in fact a genocide, because I've heard

3263
02:52:19,080 --> 02:52:22,560
Speaker 7: truly the most inane arguments as if to prove their

3264
02:52:22,600 --> 02:52:25,880
Speaker 7: point this isn't a genocide, whether it's about population growth

3265
02:52:26,320 --> 02:52:29,560
Speaker 7: or the fact that Israel hasn't killed enough people. But

3266
02:52:30,200 --> 02:52:32,640
Speaker 7: I'll have to get into that later, only because I

3267
02:52:32,800 --> 02:52:36,000
Speaker 7: will go on forever and just start ranting. But if

3268
02:52:36,040 --> 02:52:39,120
Speaker 7: every genocidal scholar and Israeli historian I can think of

3269
02:52:40,080 --> 02:52:43,400
Speaker 7: agrees this is a genocide, if humanitarian organizations are also

3270
02:52:43,440 --> 02:52:46,560
Speaker 7: telling you this is in fact, the genocide is a genocide.

3271
02:52:47,240 --> 02:52:49,800
Speaker 7: Genocide is about intent on the part of the person

3272
02:52:49,879 --> 02:52:52,640
Speaker 7: committing the genocide or the entity commuting the genocide. It's

3273
02:52:52,640 --> 02:52:57,520
Speaker 7: about intent and about the actions. It is not about

3274
02:52:58,280 --> 02:53:01,240
Speaker 7: birth rate or whatever the as Ionists will try to

3275
02:53:01,320 --> 02:53:04,359
Speaker 7: argue about. It's not about that, and what's happening is genocide,

3276
02:53:04,480 --> 02:53:07,320
Speaker 7: whether you want to hear that or not. This investigation

3277
02:53:07,440 --> 02:53:10,199
Speaker 7: also explains how Israel seeks out what it calls quote

3278
02:53:10,240 --> 02:53:14,600
Speaker 7: unquote power targets to bomb power targets are non military

3279
02:53:14,680 --> 02:53:18,199
Speaker 7: targets like homes and public buildings like schools and hospitals,

3280
02:53:18,680 --> 02:53:22,000
Speaker 7: and Israel targets and bombs these for the direct purpose

3281
02:53:22,040 --> 02:53:27,120
Speaker 7: of terrorizing Palestinian civilians and harming their society. Israel's deliberate

3282
02:53:27,160 --> 02:53:31,279
Speaker 7: attacks on Palestinians and their society are illegal and inhumane,

3283
02:53:31,680 --> 02:53:35,160
Speaker 7: to say the very least. Then again, something being illegal

3284
02:53:35,400 --> 02:53:38,720
Speaker 7: truly means nothing at this point, because Israel has violated

3285
02:53:38,800 --> 02:53:43,959
Speaker 7: international law for decades without any repercussions whatsoever. Something being

3286
02:53:44,200 --> 02:53:49,360
Speaker 7: illegal means nothing, and the un feels useless because nothing

3287
02:53:49,480 --> 02:53:52,119
Speaker 7: ever happens. This is not the first time Israel has

3288
02:53:52,480 --> 02:53:55,200
Speaker 7: murdered Palestinians indiscriminately. It's not the first time they have

3289
02:53:55,360 --> 02:53:58,680
Speaker 7: violated international law or committed war crimes. But nothing ever

3290
02:53:58,720 --> 02:54:02,920
Speaker 7: happened before, so why would it happen now. Permissive air

3291
02:54:02,959 --> 02:54:05,440
Speaker 7: strikes on non military targets and the use of an

3292
02:54:05,560 --> 02:54:09,360
Speaker 7: artificial intelligence system have enabled the Israeli Army to carry

3293
02:54:09,400 --> 02:54:13,680
Speaker 7: out the deadliest attack on Gaza. Ever, so, the Israeli

3294
02:54:13,800 --> 02:54:17,680
Speaker 7: Army's expanded authorization for bombing non military targets, the loosening

3295
02:54:17,800 --> 02:54:21,680
Speaker 7: of constraints regarding expected civilian casualties and the use of

3296
02:54:21,720 --> 02:54:25,240
Speaker 7: an artificial intelligence system to generate more potential targets than

3297
02:54:25,240 --> 02:54:29,080
Speaker 7: ever before. All of this has contributed to the destructive

3298
02:54:29,200 --> 02:54:33,600
Speaker 7: nature in the deadliest military campaign against Palestinians since the

3299
02:54:33,720 --> 02:54:38,000
Speaker 7: Nekpa of nineteen forty eight. As I mentioned. This investigation

3300
02:54:38,120 --> 02:54:40,560
Speaker 7: by plus nine seven to two magazine and local call

3301
02:54:41,160 --> 02:54:44,760
Speaker 7: is based on conversations with seven current and former members

3302
02:54:44,840 --> 02:54:49,520
Speaker 7: of Israel's intelligence community, including military intelligence and air force personnel,

3303
02:54:49,760 --> 02:54:53,400
Speaker 7: who were involved in Israeli operations in the besieged Gaza Strip.

3304
02:54:54,120 --> 02:54:58,200
Speaker 7: In addition to this includes Palestinian testimonies, data and documentation

3305
02:54:58,280 --> 02:55:01,120
Speaker 7: from the Gaza Strip, as well as official statements by

3306
02:55:01,200 --> 02:55:06,000
Speaker 7: IOWS spokespeople and other Israeli state institutions. Compared to the

3307
02:55:06,120 --> 02:55:10,440
Speaker 7: previous Israeli assaults on Gaza, the current attack, I will

3308
02:55:10,480 --> 02:55:12,360
Speaker 7: never call it a war. This is not a war.

3309
02:55:13,360 --> 02:55:16,279
Speaker 7: I have said this before. A war indicates both sides

3310
02:55:16,520 --> 02:55:18,920
Speaker 7: are equal and have an army, but you literally can't

3311
02:55:19,959 --> 02:55:23,640
Speaker 7: go to war with an entity you are occupying. Regardless,

3312
02:55:24,080 --> 02:55:28,160
Speaker 7: compared to previous assaults on Gaza, what's happening now is unprecedented.

3313
02:55:28,959 --> 02:55:31,480
Speaker 7: Israel has named the current attack on Gaza that is

3314
02:55:31,520 --> 02:55:35,480
Speaker 7: happening now, the current genocide. It has named its actions

3315
02:55:35,520 --> 02:55:37,880
Speaker 7: that have started in the wake of October seventh, after

3316
02:55:37,920 --> 02:55:42,200
Speaker 7: the Hamas attack, Operation Iron Swords, and we've seen the

3317
02:55:42,320 --> 02:55:46,160
Speaker 7: Israeli armies significantly expand its bombing of targets that are

3318
02:55:46,240 --> 02:55:50,760
Speaker 7: not distinctly military in nature. This includes private residences as

3319
02:55:50,800 --> 02:55:54,480
Speaker 7: well as public buildings, infrastructure, and high rise blocks, which

3320
02:55:54,720 --> 02:55:59,040
Speaker 7: sources say the army defines as these power targets. Israel

3321
02:55:59,080 --> 02:56:02,360
Speaker 7: seeks out these power targets to bomb. Power targets again,

3322
02:56:02,520 --> 02:56:05,920
Speaker 7: are non military targets like homes in public buildings, and

3323
02:56:06,080 --> 02:56:09,320
Speaker 7: Israel again targets and bombs these for the purpose of

3324
02:56:09,480 --> 02:56:13,360
Speaker 7: terrorizing Palestinian civilians and harming their society. And this is

3325
02:56:13,400 --> 02:56:16,560
Speaker 7: according to intelligence sources who had first hand experience with

3326
02:56:16,640 --> 02:56:19,680
Speaker 7: this application in Gaza in the past, who confirmed that

3327
02:56:19,800 --> 02:56:23,160
Speaker 7: not only is it mainly intended to harm Palestinian civil society,

3328
02:56:23,520 --> 02:56:26,400
Speaker 7: but it's also meant to quote create a shock that,

3329
02:56:26,560 --> 02:56:30,200
Speaker 7: among other things, will reverberate powerfully and lead civilians to

3330
02:56:30,280 --> 02:56:34,199
Speaker 7: put pressure on Hamas, as one source put it. Several

3331
02:56:34,280 --> 02:56:37,600
Speaker 7: sources spoke on the condition of anonymity, and they confirmed

3332
02:56:37,640 --> 02:56:40,440
Speaker 7: that the Israeli Army has files of the vast majority

3333
02:56:40,480 --> 02:56:44,240
Speaker 7: of potential targets in Gaza, including homes, which stipulate the

3334
02:56:44,320 --> 02:56:46,520
Speaker 7: number of civilians who are likely to be killed in

3335
02:56:46,600 --> 02:56:50,119
Speaker 7: an attack on a particular target. This number of casualties

3336
02:56:50,280 --> 02:56:53,880
Speaker 7: is calculated and known in advance to the army's intelligence units,

3337
02:56:54,120 --> 02:56:57,480
Speaker 7: who also know shortly before carrying out an attack roughly

3338
02:56:57,560 --> 02:57:01,320
Speaker 7: how many civilians are certain to be killed. So the

3339
02:57:01,440 --> 02:57:04,840
Speaker 7: Israeli Army knows just how many Palestinian civilians they'll kill

3340
02:57:04,920 --> 02:57:09,040
Speaker 7: with each strike, and Israel kills them anyway, fully aware

3341
02:57:09,080 --> 02:57:12,440
Speaker 7: of the number of civilian death that will ensue. In

3342
02:57:12,560 --> 02:57:15,920
Speaker 7: one case discussed by these sources, the Israeli military command

3343
02:57:16,120 --> 02:57:19,920
Speaker 7: knowingly approved the killing of hundreds of Palestinian civilians in

3344
02:57:20,040 --> 02:57:25,199
Speaker 7: an attempt to assassinate a single top hamass military commander. Allegedly.

3345
02:57:26,000 --> 02:57:29,400
Speaker 7: One source said the numbers increased from dozens of civilian

3346
02:57:29,480 --> 02:57:32,720
Speaker 7: deaths permitted as collateral damage as part of an attack

3347
02:57:32,800 --> 02:57:35,800
Speaker 7: on a senior official in previous operations two hundreds of

3348
02:57:35,879 --> 02:57:40,560
Speaker 7: civilian deaths as collateral damage. Another source said nothing happens

3349
02:57:40,600 --> 02:57:43,600
Speaker 7: by accident when a three year old girl is killed

3350
02:57:43,640 --> 02:57:45,880
Speaker 7: in a home in Gaza. It's because someone in the

3351
02:57:46,000 --> 02:57:48,040
Speaker 7: army decided it wasn't a big deal for her to

3352
02:57:48,120 --> 02:57:50,960
Speaker 7: be killed, that it was a price worth paying in

3353
02:57:51,120 --> 02:57:54,760
Speaker 7: order to hit another target. We are not Hamas. These

3354
02:57:54,800 --> 02:57:59,160
Speaker 7: are not random rockets. Everything is intentional. We know exactly

3355
02:57:59,280 --> 02:58:03,560
Speaker 7: how much collect damage there is in every home. The

3356
02:58:03,640 --> 02:58:07,840
Speaker 7: investigation revealed that another reason for the overwhelming civilian death toll,

3357
02:58:07,959 --> 02:58:10,320
Speaker 7: as well as a number of targets in Gaza, is

3358
02:58:10,400 --> 02:58:14,400
Speaker 7: the widespread use of an AI system called Habsaora aka

3359
02:58:14,720 --> 02:58:18,840
Speaker 7: the Gospel. The Gospel is largely built on artificial intelligence

3360
02:58:18,920 --> 02:58:22,600
Speaker 7: and can generate targets almost automatically, at a rate that

3361
02:58:22,840 --> 02:58:26,840
Speaker 7: far exceeds what was previously possible. This AI system, as

3362
02:58:26,920 --> 02:58:31,680
Speaker 7: described by a former intelligence officer, essentially facilitates, in his words,

3363
02:58:32,160 --> 02:58:37,680
Speaker 7: a mass assassination factory. Israeli sources said that the increasing

3364
02:58:37,800 --> 02:58:41,240
Speaker 7: use of AI based systems like Habsora allow the army

3365
02:58:41,320 --> 02:58:44,000
Speaker 7: to carry out strikes on residential homes where a single

3366
02:58:44,040 --> 02:58:47,640
Speaker 7: Hamas member lives on a massive scale, But testimonies of

3367
02:58:47,680 --> 02:58:51,560
Speaker 7: Palestinians argue that the army attacked many private residences where

3368
02:58:51,560 --> 02:58:54,680
Speaker 7: there was no known or apparent member of Hamas anywhere

3369
02:58:54,760 --> 02:58:58,720
Speaker 7: inside or any other militant group residing such strikes can

3370
02:58:58,800 --> 02:59:01,720
Speaker 7: knowingly kill entire families in the process, and that is

3371
02:59:01,800 --> 02:59:04,920
Speaker 7: exactly what has happened and keeps happening. In the majority

3372
02:59:04,959 --> 02:59:08,400
Speaker 7: of cases, the sources said, military activity is not conducted

3373
02:59:08,480 --> 02:59:11,720
Speaker 7: from these targeted homes. One of them said, I remember

3374
02:59:11,800 --> 02:59:14,720
Speaker 7: thinking that it was like if Palestinian militants would bomb

3375
02:59:14,760 --> 02:59:18,279
Speaker 7: all the private residences of our families when Israeli soldiers

3376
02:59:18,360 --> 02:59:21,240
Speaker 7: go back to sleep at home on the weekend. The

3377
02:59:21,360 --> 02:59:24,600
Speaker 7: source was apparently critical of this practice. He's still a

3378
02:59:24,640 --> 02:59:27,640
Speaker 7: fucking soldier, so I don't give a shit. Another source

3379
02:59:27,760 --> 02:59:30,959
Speaker 7: said that a senior intelligence officer told his officers after

3380
02:59:31,040 --> 02:59:35,120
Speaker 7: October seventh that the criteria around harming Palestinian civilians were

3381
02:59:35,160 --> 02:59:39,600
Speaker 7: significantly relaxed. As such, there are quote cases in which

3382
02:59:39,640 --> 02:59:42,920
Speaker 7: we shall based on a wide cellular pinpointing of where

3383
02:59:42,920 --> 02:59:46,400
Speaker 7: the target is killing civilians. This is done to save

3384
02:59:46,560 --> 02:59:49,160
Speaker 7: time instead of doing a little more work to get

3385
02:59:49,280 --> 02:59:53,640
Speaker 7: more accurate pinpointing, said the source. The result of these

3386
02:59:53,720 --> 02:59:57,400
Speaker 7: policies is the staggering loss of human life in Gaza.

3387
02:59:57,520 --> 03:00:01,880
Speaker 7: Since October seventh, over three hundred families have lost ten

3388
03:00:02,120 --> 03:00:04,760
Speaker 7: or more family members in the Israeli bombings over the

3389
03:00:04,840 --> 03:00:09,120
Speaker 7: past two months. That number is fifteen times higher the

3390
03:00:09,200 --> 03:00:12,080
Speaker 7: figure from what was previously Israel's dead las war on

3391
03:00:12,160 --> 03:00:16,440
Speaker 7: Gaza in twenty fourteen. One source said there is a

3392
03:00:16,560 --> 03:00:19,120
Speaker 7: feeling that senior officials in the army are aware of

3393
03:00:19,200 --> 03:00:22,000
Speaker 7: their failure on October seventh and are busy with the

3394
03:00:22,120 --> 03:00:24,600
Speaker 7: question of how to provide the Israeli public with an

3395
03:00:24,680 --> 03:00:28,640
Speaker 7: image of victory that will salvage the reputation. I just

3396
03:00:28,680 --> 03:00:35,000
Speaker 7: think it's really pathetic that an entire army will bomb

3397
03:00:35,200 --> 03:00:39,400
Speaker 7: and obliterate a piece of land with millions of people

3398
03:00:39,480 --> 03:00:43,280
Speaker 7: on it because they're essentially embarrassed that they failed. It

3399
03:00:43,400 --> 03:00:47,279
Speaker 7: really just makes you realize that humans are small, silly

3400
03:00:47,360 --> 03:00:51,400
Speaker 7: creatures that are just too powerful for their own good.

3401
03:00:52,280 --> 03:00:54,880
Speaker 7: Getting your ego slighted is not an excuse for committing

3402
03:00:54,879 --> 03:00:57,520
Speaker 7: a genocide, and there's nothing you can say to make

3403
03:00:57,600 --> 03:01:01,000
Speaker 7: me think otherwise. From the first moment after the October

3404
03:01:01,040 --> 03:01:04,760
Speaker 7: seventh attack, politicians in Israel openly declared that the response

3405
03:01:04,800 --> 03:01:08,320
Speaker 7: would be of a completely different magnitude to previous military

3406
03:01:08,360 --> 03:01:14,520
Speaker 7: operations in Gaza. Idspokesperson Danielle Hagari on October ninth, said,

3407
03:01:14,959 --> 03:01:19,040
Speaker 7: the emphasis is on damage and not on accuracy, and

3408
03:01:19,240 --> 03:01:24,720
Speaker 7: the army swiftly translated these declarations into actions. Israeli intelligence

3409
03:01:24,800 --> 03:01:28,320
Speaker 7: divides its targets in Gaza into four categories. The first

3410
03:01:28,560 --> 03:01:32,840
Speaker 7: is tactical targets, which include standard military targets like armed

3411
03:01:32,920 --> 03:01:38,199
Speaker 7: militant cells, weapon warehouses, rocket launchers, anti tank missile launchers,

3412
03:01:38,320 --> 03:01:41,960
Speaker 7: launch pits, mortar bombs, military headquarters, observation posts, and so on.

3413
03:01:43,080 --> 03:01:47,120
Speaker 7: The second is underground targets, mainly tunnels that Hamas has

3414
03:01:47,200 --> 03:01:52,120
Speaker 7: dug under Gaza's neighborhoods, including under civilian homes. Aerial strikes

3415
03:01:52,160 --> 03:01:54,320
Speaker 7: on these targets could lead to the collapse of the

3416
03:01:54,400 --> 03:01:58,400
Speaker 7: homes above or near the tunnels. The third is what

3417
03:01:58,520 --> 03:02:02,320
Speaker 7: we're talking about earlier power targets, which includes the high

3418
03:02:02,400 --> 03:02:05,560
Speaker 7: rises and residential towers and the heart of cities, as

3419
03:02:05,600 --> 03:02:09,320
Speaker 7: well as public buildings like universities, banks, and government offices.

3420
03:02:09,959 --> 03:02:13,840
Speaker 7: The idea behind hitting such targets, say three intelligence sources

3421
03:02:13,879 --> 03:02:16,800
Speaker 7: who were involved in planning or conducting strikes on power

3422
03:02:16,879 --> 03:02:20,800
Speaker 7: targets in the past, say that a deliberate attack, devastation

3423
03:02:21,040 --> 03:02:26,200
Speaker 7: and destruction of Palestinian society will exert civil pressure on Hamas.

3424
03:02:26,800 --> 03:02:30,720
Speaker 7: The final category of targets are family homes. The stated

3425
03:02:30,800 --> 03:02:33,800
Speaker 7: purpose of these attacks is to destroy private residences in

3426
03:02:33,959 --> 03:02:36,960
Speaker 7: order to assassinate a single resident suspected of being a

3427
03:02:37,000 --> 03:02:41,800
Speaker 7: Hamas member or an Islamic Jahad operative, but Palestinian testimonies

3428
03:02:41,800 --> 03:02:44,280
Speaker 7: explained that most of the families that were killed did

3429
03:02:44,320 --> 03:02:48,600
Speaker 7: not include any operatives from any organization. In the early

3430
03:02:48,680 --> 03:02:51,720
Speaker 7: stages of the current genocide, the Israeli army appear to

3431
03:02:51,800 --> 03:02:55,160
Speaker 7: have given particular attention to the third and fourth categories.

3432
03:02:55,959 --> 03:02:59,279
Speaker 7: According to statements on October eleventh by the IOF spokesperson,

3433
03:02:59,600 --> 03:03:02,680
Speaker 7: during the first five days of fighting, half the targets bombed,

3434
03:03:02,920 --> 03:03:05,520
Speaker 7: which amounts to one thousand, three hundred and twenty nine

3435
03:03:05,680 --> 03:03:07,720
Speaker 7: out of a total of two than six hundred and

3436
03:03:07,760 --> 03:03:11,440
Speaker 7: eighty seven or deemed power targets. Just to loop in

3437
03:03:11,520 --> 03:03:14,520
Speaker 7: the people that maybe don't know. But IOF is used

3438
03:03:14,560 --> 03:03:18,080
Speaker 7: instead of IDF by a lot of Palacini activists because

3439
03:03:18,120 --> 03:03:20,920
Speaker 7: they define it, and I define it as Israeli occupation

3440
03:03:21,080 --> 03:03:23,920
Speaker 7: forces and not defense forces, because what they're doing has

3441
03:03:24,000 --> 03:03:26,960
Speaker 7: never been defense. So you might see many people call

3442
03:03:27,000 --> 03:03:30,240
Speaker 7: it IOF because that is what they're referring to. Israeli

3443
03:03:30,280 --> 03:03:34,560
Speaker 7: occupation forces. One source said, we are asked to look

3444
03:03:34,640 --> 03:03:37,120
Speaker 7: for high rise building with half a floor that can

3445
03:03:37,160 --> 03:03:40,800
Speaker 7: be attributed to hamas. Sometimes it is a militant group's

3446
03:03:40,879 --> 03:03:45,440
Speaker 7: spokesperson's office or a point where operatives meet. I understood

3447
03:03:45,560 --> 03:03:48,320
Speaker 7: that the floor is an excuse that allows the army

3448
03:03:48,400 --> 03:03:50,920
Speaker 7: to cause a lot of destruction in Gaza. That is

3449
03:03:50,959 --> 03:03:53,440
Speaker 7: what they told us. If they would tell the whole

3450
03:03:53,520 --> 03:03:55,959
Speaker 7: world that the Islamic stuh Hot offices on the tenth

3451
03:03:56,040 --> 03:03:59,000
Speaker 7: floor are not important as a target, but that its

3452
03:03:59,080 --> 03:04:02,800
Speaker 7: existence is justification to bring down the entire high rise

3453
03:04:02,879 --> 03:04:06,040
Speaker 7: with the aim of pressuring civilian families who live in

3454
03:04:06,120 --> 03:04:09,680
Speaker 7: it in order to put pressure on terrorist organizations. This

3455
03:04:09,879 --> 03:04:13,440
Speaker 7: itself would be seen as terrorism, so they do not

3456
03:04:13,560 --> 03:04:18,599
Speaker 7: say that. As expected. Testimonies and videos from Gaza, unsurprisingly

3457
03:04:18,840 --> 03:04:20,920
Speaker 7: show that some of these targets that have been attacked

3458
03:04:21,000 --> 03:04:24,040
Speaker 7: have been attacked without warning and without prior notice given

3459
03:04:24,120 --> 03:04:27,720
Speaker 7: to their occupants, thus killing entire families as a result.

3460
03:04:28,640 --> 03:04:31,960
Speaker 7: Let's take our first break here, because that's what we do,

3461
03:04:33,480 --> 03:04:36,680
Speaker 7: and we are back you and data for the period

3462
03:04:36,800 --> 03:04:40,080
Speaker 7: up until November eleventh, by which time Israel had killed

3463
03:04:40,160 --> 03:04:43,880
Speaker 7: eleven thousand and seventy eight Palestinians in Gaza stated that

3464
03:04:43,959 --> 03:04:46,800
Speaker 7: at least three hundred and twelve families have lost ten

3465
03:04:46,959 --> 03:04:50,720
Speaker 7: or more people in Gaza. For the sake of comparison,

3466
03:04:51,280 --> 03:04:56,000
Speaker 7: Operation Protective Edge in twenty fourteen, twenty families in Gaza

3467
03:04:56,120 --> 03:05:00,320
Speaker 7: lost ten or more people twenty in comparison to over

3468
03:05:00,440 --> 03:05:04,560
Speaker 7: three hundred now. In addition, according to the UN, at

3469
03:05:04,640 --> 03:05:07,360
Speaker 7: least one hundred and eighty nine families have lost between

3470
03:05:07,440 --> 03:05:10,640
Speaker 7: six and nine people, while five hundred and forty nine

3471
03:05:10,680 --> 03:05:14,480
Speaker 7: families have lost between two and five people. According to

3472
03:05:14,560 --> 03:05:17,560
Speaker 7: the UN, and this number is changing and unfortunately rising

3473
03:05:17,680 --> 03:05:21,200
Speaker 7: even as we speak. One point nine million Palestinians, which

3474
03:05:21,240 --> 03:05:23,960
Speaker 7: is the vast majority of the Strip's population, have been

3475
03:05:24,000 --> 03:05:28,040
Speaker 7: displaced within Gaza since October seventh. The IOF claims that

3476
03:05:28,160 --> 03:05:31,040
Speaker 7: the demand to evacuate the strips north was intended to

3477
03:05:31,080 --> 03:05:35,440
Speaker 7: protect civilian lives. However, Palestinians and most of the world

3478
03:05:35,560 --> 03:05:38,560
Speaker 7: see this for what it is that this mass displacement

3479
03:05:38,720 --> 03:05:41,760
Speaker 7: is part of a new Nekba, an attempt to ethnically

3480
03:05:41,840 --> 03:05:45,280
Speaker 7: cleanse part or all of the territory. And I'm not

3481
03:05:45,480 --> 03:05:49,439
Speaker 7: just making up the phrase new Nekba because Israeli politicians

3482
03:05:49,480 --> 03:05:52,720
Speaker 7: and officials have described what is happening right now as

3483
03:05:52,800 --> 03:05:56,760
Speaker 7: a nekba, as well as stating genocidal intent in many

3484
03:05:56,840 --> 03:06:00,960
Speaker 7: other ways. So Duve Waxman, the Directtion euro of UCLA's

3485
03:06:01,160 --> 03:06:04,400
Speaker 7: Y and S. Nazarin Center for Israel Studies, talked a

3486
03:06:04,400 --> 03:06:07,200
Speaker 7: little bit about this in a phone interview with NBC News.

3487
03:06:08,320 --> 03:06:11,200
Speaker 7: Some of that rhetoric can be seen as potentially genocidal

3488
03:06:11,280 --> 03:06:15,080
Speaker 7: from the way it dehumanizes Palestinian civilians. He noted that

3489
03:06:15,240 --> 03:06:17,880
Speaker 7: the right wing ministers who made comments like this are

3490
03:06:17,959 --> 03:06:20,600
Speaker 7: quote not in the war cabinet, so their awards can

3491
03:06:20,680 --> 03:06:24,240
Speaker 7: only have so much impact on Israeli policy. But still,

3492
03:06:24,800 --> 03:06:28,640
Speaker 7: hearing ministers of any kind in public, officials with millions

3493
03:06:28,680 --> 03:06:32,279
Speaker 7: of followers and eyes on them, make suggestions like flattening

3494
03:06:32,360 --> 03:06:37,840
Speaker 7: Gaza with a nuclear bomb should be concerning. Nonetheless, Agriculture

3495
03:06:37,920 --> 03:06:41,560
Speaker 7: Minister Avi Dickter, a member of the right wing Lecud party,

3496
03:06:41,680 --> 03:06:45,000
Speaker 7: told Israeli Channel twelve that the quote unquote war would

3497
03:06:45,040 --> 03:06:49,480
Speaker 7: be Gaza's nekba, using this Arabic word for catastrophe that

3498
03:06:49,840 --> 03:06:52,680
Speaker 7: we all use to describe the nineteen forty eight displacement

3499
03:06:53,000 --> 03:06:57,440
Speaker 7: of Palestinians as well as their genocide. He said, from

3500
03:06:57,440 --> 03:06:59,800
Speaker 7: an operational point of view, there is no way to

3501
03:06:59,840 --> 03:07:02,520
Speaker 7: wage a war as the Israeli army seeks to do

3502
03:07:02,640 --> 03:07:05,880
Speaker 7: in Gaza with masses between the tanks and the soldiers.

3503
03:07:06,760 --> 03:07:09,199
Speaker 7: When Dictor was pressed on his use of the word

3504
03:07:09,360 --> 03:07:12,840
Speaker 7: nekba to describe the situation in Gaza, he said again,

3505
03:07:13,240 --> 03:07:18,160
Speaker 7: doubling down, Gaza nekba twenty twenty three, that's how it'll end.

3506
03:07:19,360 --> 03:07:22,480
Speaker 7: A week before these comments were made, Israeli Heritage Minister

3507
03:07:22,720 --> 03:07:26,600
Speaker 7: Amahai Iliyahu apologies from his pronouncing it, but also not

3508
03:07:26,760 --> 03:07:31,520
Speaker 7: really sparked outcry after he suggested that dropping a nuclear

3509
03:07:31,640 --> 03:07:34,200
Speaker 7: bomb on the Gaza strip was quote one of the

3510
03:07:34,280 --> 03:07:38,920
Speaker 7: possibilities in the current conflict. Also, it's important to remember

3511
03:07:39,040 --> 03:07:42,040
Speaker 7: that the increasingly hostile rhetoric from Israel's far right cabinet

3512
03:07:42,080 --> 03:07:45,760
Speaker 7: ministers has not only centered on Gaza, but also the

3513
03:07:45,840 --> 03:07:50,000
Speaker 7: occupied West Bank. An example of this is when Israeli

3514
03:07:50,120 --> 03:07:54,480
Speaker 7: Finance Minister Bezialel Simotrik, who was a prominent settler advocist,

3515
03:07:54,959 --> 03:07:57,760
Speaker 7: called for the creation of quote sterile zones in the

3516
03:07:57,800 --> 03:08:00,240
Speaker 7: West Bank in a letter that he sent Anya who

3517
03:08:00,440 --> 03:08:04,160
Speaker 7: and Yoov Galant, the Defense Minister, and this letter was

3518
03:08:04,240 --> 03:08:08,200
Speaker 7: shared with Israeli media. Such sterile zones, he said, with

3519
03:08:08,320 --> 03:08:11,680
Speaker 7: block Palestinians from entering certain areas and bar them from

3520
03:08:11,760 --> 03:08:15,920
Speaker 7: harvesting olives close to Israeli settlements in the enclave. This

3521
03:08:16,120 --> 03:08:19,280
Speaker 7: letter also came during the annual olive harvest, with ol

3522
03:08:19,360 --> 03:08:22,320
Speaker 7: of farming being a primary source of income for many

3523
03:08:22,360 --> 03:08:25,720
Speaker 7: Palestinian farmers in the West Bank. It also came during

3524
03:08:25,760 --> 03:08:28,560
Speaker 7: a surge of settler violence against Palestinians in the area,

3525
03:08:28,680 --> 03:08:31,640
Speaker 7: which has only increased since then. There was a law

3526
03:08:31,720 --> 03:08:33,480
Speaker 7: that was passed a couple of years ago. I believe

3527
03:08:33,640 --> 03:08:38,640
Speaker 7: that essentially allows Israeli soldiers to shoot unarmed Palestinians without

3528
03:08:38,680 --> 03:08:41,920
Speaker 7: any legal repercussions, and we're seeing that happen in real

3529
03:08:41,959 --> 03:08:45,000
Speaker 7: time in the West Bank. So as this genocide is

3530
03:08:45,080 --> 03:08:48,160
Speaker 7: unfold Gangaza, keep in mind there's no Hamas in the

3531
03:08:48,200 --> 03:08:51,600
Speaker 7: West Bank and they are still committing acts of terror.

3532
03:08:51,640 --> 03:08:54,120
Speaker 7: There also a side note, if you guys want to

3533
03:08:54,160 --> 03:08:58,439
Speaker 7: learn about the significance of olives and olive trees for Palestine,

3534
03:08:58,520 --> 03:09:01,000
Speaker 7: I did an episode about that. You can look it up.

3535
03:09:01,520 --> 03:09:03,960
Speaker 7: But the olive harvest and olives and olive trees in

3536
03:09:04,040 --> 03:09:07,760
Speaker 7: particular are very significant part of Palestinian life. One such

3537
03:09:07,840 --> 03:09:12,120
Speaker 7: case of both increasing settler violence and targeting olives and

3538
03:09:12,240 --> 03:09:15,959
Speaker 7: all of farmers in particular is in Balal Saleh, who

3539
03:09:16,080 --> 03:09:19,039
Speaker 7: was killed while tending to his olive trees earlier this month.

3540
03:09:19,800 --> 03:09:22,959
Speaker 7: An elderly couple were also attacked by settlers last month

3541
03:09:23,080 --> 03:09:27,320
Speaker 7: without provocation while collecting olives in the West Bank. Comments

3542
03:09:27,400 --> 03:09:30,280
Speaker 7: like those made by Simotrik only in bolden settlers to

3543
03:09:30,400 --> 03:09:34,240
Speaker 7: attack Palestinians again. I want to mention here that it

3544
03:09:34,360 --> 03:09:37,200
Speaker 7: is not against Israeli law for soldiers to shoot at

3545
03:09:37,320 --> 03:09:41,199
Speaker 7: unarmed Palestinians. It is permissible and done all the time.

3546
03:09:41,600 --> 03:09:44,560
Speaker 7: When that is the norm. Of course, you're going to

3547
03:09:44,680 --> 03:09:49,840
Speaker 7: have hateful settlers adopting the same strategy when they're armed

3548
03:09:49,959 --> 03:09:54,000
Speaker 7: with no repercussions. According to the Israeli Army, during the

3549
03:09:54,040 --> 03:09:57,560
Speaker 7: first five days of fighting, it dropped six thousand bombs

3550
03:09:57,640 --> 03:09:59,840
Speaker 7: on the Gaza Strip with a total weight of a

3551
03:10:00,280 --> 03:10:04,120
Speaker 7: four thousand tons. Media outlets reported that the army had

3552
03:10:04,160 --> 03:10:08,160
Speaker 7: wiped out entire neighborhoods. According to the Gaza based Elmizan

3553
03:10:08,320 --> 03:10:11,720
Speaker 7: Center for Human Rights, these attacks led to the complete

3554
03:10:11,760 --> 03:10:15,880
Speaker 7: destruction of residential neighborhoods, the destruction of infrastructure, and the

3555
03:10:15,959 --> 03:10:20,600
Speaker 7: mass killing of residents, as documented by Ademizan and numerous

3556
03:10:20,600 --> 03:10:23,879
Speaker 7: images coming out of Gaza. Israel bombed the Islamic University

3557
03:10:23,959 --> 03:10:27,040
Speaker 7: of Gaza, as well as the palastinan Bar Association, a

3558
03:10:27,200 --> 03:10:30,960
Speaker 7: un building for educational programs for outstanding students, a building

3559
03:10:31,080 --> 03:10:35,560
Speaker 7: belonging to the Palestine Telecommunications Company, the Ministry of National Economy,

3560
03:10:35,720 --> 03:10:38,920
Speaker 7: the Ministry of Culture, roads, and dozens of high rise

3561
03:10:38,959 --> 03:10:44,200
Speaker 7: buildings and homes, especially in Gaza's northern neighborhoods, again striking

3562
03:10:44,280 --> 03:10:47,560
Speaker 7: targets like these functions primarily as a means that allow

3563
03:10:47,720 --> 03:10:51,360
Speaker 7: damage to civil society. That is a direct quote from

3564
03:10:51,440 --> 03:10:55,519
Speaker 7: a source, and the sources understood, some explicitly and some implicitly,

3565
03:10:55,959 --> 03:10:59,320
Speaker 7: that damage to civilians is the real purpose of these attacks.

3566
03:11:00,440 --> 03:11:03,400
Speaker 7: In May twenty twenty one, Israel was heavily criticized for

3567
03:11:03,480 --> 03:11:07,160
Speaker 7: bombing the El Jallah Tower, which housed prominent international media

3568
03:11:07,200 --> 03:11:11,360
Speaker 7: outlets like Al Jazeera, AP and AFP. A source said,

3569
03:11:11,720 --> 03:11:14,280
Speaker 7: the perception is that it really hurts Hamas when high

3570
03:11:14,320 --> 03:11:16,840
Speaker 7: rise buildings are taken down because it creates a public

3571
03:11:16,920 --> 03:11:20,120
Speaker 7: reaction in the Gaza Strip and scares the population. They

3572
03:11:20,200 --> 03:11:22,400
Speaker 7: wanted to give the citizens of Gaza the feeling that

3573
03:11:22,480 --> 03:11:25,720
Speaker 7: Hamas is not in control of the situation. Sometimes they

3574
03:11:25,800 --> 03:11:30,640
Speaker 7: toppled buildings and sometimes postal service and government buildings. The

3575
03:11:30,760 --> 03:11:34,240
Speaker 7: idea of causing mass devastation to civilian areas for strategic

3576
03:11:34,320 --> 03:11:39,040
Speaker 7: purposes was formulated in previous military operations in Gaza, honed

3577
03:11:39,120 --> 03:11:41,720
Speaker 7: in by the so called Dahiya doctrine from the Second

3578
03:11:41,800 --> 03:11:44,920
Speaker 7: Lebanon War of two thousand and six. According to the

3579
03:11:45,000 --> 03:11:49,439
Speaker 7: Dahiya doctrine developed by former iof's Chief of Staff Gadi Zenkot,

3580
03:11:49,720 --> 03:11:51,640
Speaker 7: who was now a kanescant member and part of the

3581
03:11:51,720 --> 03:11:55,640
Speaker 7: current war cabinet. According to him and this doctrine, in

3582
03:11:55,720 --> 03:11:58,920
Speaker 7: a war against guerrilla groups such as Hamas or Husbandlah,

3583
03:11:59,440 --> 03:12:04,520
Speaker 7: Israel thus use disproportionate and overwhelming force while targeting civilian

3584
03:12:04,560 --> 03:12:08,960
Speaker 7: and government infrastructure in order to establish deterrence and force

3585
03:12:09,040 --> 03:12:12,320
Speaker 7: a civilian population to pressure the groups to end their attacks.

3586
03:12:12,879 --> 03:12:15,920
Speaker 7: The concept of power targets also seems to have been

3587
03:12:16,000 --> 03:12:19,800
Speaker 7: emanated from this same logic. The first time the Israeli

3588
03:12:19,920 --> 03:12:22,800
Speaker 7: Army publicly defined power targets in Gaza was at the

3589
03:12:22,959 --> 03:12:26,800
Speaker 7: end of Operation Protective Edge in twenty fourteen, the army

3590
03:12:26,879 --> 03:12:29,720
Speaker 7: bombed four buildings during the last four days of the war,

3591
03:12:30,160 --> 03:12:33,080
Speaker 7: three residential multi story buildings in Gaza City and a

3592
03:12:33,200 --> 03:12:37,360
Speaker 7: high rise in Rafa. The security establishment explained at the

3593
03:12:37,400 --> 03:12:39,720
Speaker 7: time that the attacks were intended to convey to the

3594
03:12:39,800 --> 03:12:44,040
Speaker 7: Palestinians in Gaza that quote, nothing is immune anymore, and

3595
03:12:44,160 --> 03:12:46,640
Speaker 7: to put pressure on Hamas to agree to a cease fire.

3596
03:12:47,480 --> 03:12:51,160
Speaker 7: An Amnesty report in late twenty fourteen stated, the evidence

3597
03:12:51,200 --> 03:12:54,240
Speaker 7: we collected shows that a massive destruction of the buildings

3598
03:12:54,360 --> 03:13:00,400
Speaker 7: was carried out deliberately without any military justification. Previous operations

3599
03:13:00,440 --> 03:13:03,200
Speaker 7: have also shown how striking these targets is meant not

3600
03:13:03,360 --> 03:13:06,959
Speaker 7: to only harm Palestinian morale, but also raised the morale

3601
03:13:07,160 --> 03:13:11,360
Speaker 7: inside Israel. Herods revealed that during Operation Guardian of the

3602
03:13:11,440 --> 03:13:15,040
Speaker 7: Walls in twenty twenty one, the IOF Spokesperson's unit conducted

3603
03:13:15,080 --> 03:13:17,880
Speaker 7: a si off against Israeli citizens in order to boost

3604
03:13:17,879 --> 03:13:20,959
Speaker 7: awareness of the iof's operation in Gaza and the damage

3605
03:13:21,000 --> 03:13:25,279
Speaker 7: they caused to Palestinians. Soldiers using fake social media accounts

3606
03:13:25,320 --> 03:13:29,080
Speaker 7: to conceal the campaign's origin, uploaded images and clips of

3607
03:13:29,160 --> 03:13:32,520
Speaker 7: the army's strikes in Gaza to Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and

3608
03:13:32,600 --> 03:13:35,600
Speaker 7: TikTok in order to demonstrate the army's prowess to the

3609
03:13:35,760 --> 03:13:40,640
Speaker 7: Israeli public, which is, in my opinion, pathetic. During the

3610
03:13:40,680 --> 03:13:43,840
Speaker 7: twenty twenty one assault, Israel struck nine targets that were

3611
03:13:43,879 --> 03:13:47,359
Speaker 7: defined as power targets, all of them high rise buildings.

3612
03:13:48,000 --> 03:13:51,320
Speaker 7: One security source said the goal was to collapse the

3613
03:13:51,440 --> 03:13:54,360
Speaker 7: high rises so that the Israeli public would see a

3614
03:13:54,520 --> 03:13:58,200
Speaker 7: victory image. The bottom line is that they knocked down

3615
03:13:58,240 --> 03:14:00,760
Speaker 7: a high rise for the sake of knocking down a

3616
03:14:00,840 --> 03:14:03,960
Speaker 7: high rise. Let's take our second break and we'll be

3617
03:14:04,080 --> 03:14:09,280
Speaker 7: right back. We're back, okay. So not only are we

3618
03:14:09,360 --> 03:14:13,039
Speaker 7: seeing Israel attack an unprecedented number of power targets, we're

3619
03:14:13,040 --> 03:14:16,199
Speaker 7: also getting testimonies from Palestinian residents in Gaza that indicate

3620
03:14:16,320 --> 03:14:19,840
Speaker 7: that since October seventh, Israel has attacked high rises with

3621
03:14:19,920 --> 03:14:23,960
Speaker 7: their residents still inside without prior warning, which leads to

3622
03:14:24,080 --> 03:14:28,880
Speaker 7: many civilian deaths. Such attacks obviously result in the killing

3623
03:14:28,959 --> 03:14:32,680
Speaker 7: of entire families, and this was experienced in previous offenses.

3624
03:14:33,320 --> 03:14:36,640
Speaker 7: According to an investigation by AP conducted after the twenty

3625
03:14:36,720 --> 03:14:40,280
Speaker 7: fourteen war, about eighty nine percent of those killed in

3626
03:14:40,360 --> 03:14:43,960
Speaker 7: the aerial bombings of family homes were unarmed residents, and

3627
03:14:44,120 --> 03:14:48,960
Speaker 7: most of them were women and children. Sound familiar. Just

3628
03:14:49,160 --> 03:14:50,800
Speaker 7: goes to show you that Israel has been doing this

3629
03:14:50,920 --> 03:14:55,360
Speaker 7: for a long time without anything happening because international law

3630
03:14:55,920 --> 03:14:59,920
Speaker 7: is bullshit. But really, think about that, eighty nine percent

3631
03:15:00,840 --> 03:15:03,160
Speaker 7: of those killed in the aerial bombings in the twenty

3632
03:15:03,240 --> 03:15:08,199
Speaker 7: fourteen war sasgenocide were innocent people who were unarmed, most

3633
03:15:08,240 --> 03:15:11,000
Speaker 7: of them women and children. The exact same thing is

3634
03:15:11,080 --> 03:15:16,440
Speaker 7: happening right now. Some examples of the current indiscriminate bombing

3635
03:15:16,520 --> 03:15:20,480
Speaker 7: of residential buildings are the following. On October tenth, Israel

3636
03:15:20,600 --> 03:15:23,440
Speaker 7: bombed the Babbel building in Gaza, and this is according

3637
03:15:23,480 --> 03:15:27,040
Speaker 7: to the testimony of Belal Abuhatzira, who rescued bodies from

3638
03:15:27,080 --> 03:15:30,200
Speaker 7: the ruins that night. Ten people were killed in the

3639
03:15:30,240 --> 03:15:34,360
Speaker 7: attack on the building, including three journalists. On October twenty fifth,

3640
03:15:34,640 --> 03:15:38,000
Speaker 7: the twelve story Eltage residential building in Gaza City was

3641
03:15:38,080 --> 03:15:41,080
Speaker 7: bombed to the ground, killing the families living inside it

3642
03:15:41,200 --> 03:15:45,000
Speaker 7: without warning. About one hundred and twenty people were buried

3643
03:15:45,080 --> 03:15:47,800
Speaker 7: under the ruins of their apartments. According to the testimonies

3644
03:15:47,800 --> 03:15:51,959
Speaker 7: of the residents, yusuf ahmud Shadaf, a resident of Eltaje,

3645
03:15:52,080 --> 03:15:55,119
Speaker 7: wrote that thirty seven of his family members who lived

3646
03:15:55,120 --> 03:15:58,000
Speaker 7: in the building were killed in the attack. He said,

3647
03:15:58,879 --> 03:16:02,640
Speaker 7: my dear father and mother, my beloved wife, my sons,

3648
03:16:02,800 --> 03:16:05,840
Speaker 7: and most of my brothers and their families were killed.

3649
03:16:06,640 --> 03:16:09,040
Speaker 7: Residents stated that a lot of bombs were dropped that

3650
03:16:09,160 --> 03:16:12,840
Speaker 7: resulted in damaging and destroying apartments in nearby buildings as well.

3651
03:16:14,040 --> 03:16:17,040
Speaker 7: Six days later after this, on October thirty first, an

3652
03:16:17,080 --> 03:16:21,160
Speaker 7: eight story building the Elmu had seen was bombed without warning.

3653
03:16:21,720 --> 03:16:24,840
Speaker 7: Between thirty and forty five bodies were reportedly covered from

3654
03:16:24,840 --> 03:16:28,000
Speaker 7: the ruins. On the first day. One baby was found

3655
03:16:28,080 --> 03:16:31,000
Speaker 7: alive without his parents. I'm not sure if I mentioned

3656
03:16:31,000 --> 03:16:32,800
Speaker 7: this in a previous episode, but I think it bears

3657
03:16:32,840 --> 03:16:36,320
Speaker 7: repeating that children in Gaza are being admitted to hospitals

3658
03:16:36,360 --> 03:16:39,960
Speaker 7: completely alone and with no surviving family members, and this

3659
03:16:40,080 --> 03:16:43,600
Speaker 7: is happening so often that hospitals now have an abbreviation

3660
03:16:44,000 --> 03:16:50,160
Speaker 7: for these children WCNSF Wounded child with no surviving family.

3661
03:16:51,080 --> 03:16:55,520
Speaker 7: The ones that can't speak are marked as unknown. There

3662
03:16:55,560 --> 03:17:00,200
Speaker 7: are many children and babies like this. Journalists estimated that

3663
03:17:00,320 --> 03:17:03,400
Speaker 7: the attack killed over one hundred and fifty people, and

3664
03:17:03,560 --> 03:17:07,280
Speaker 7: many are buried and remain under the rubble. The building

3665
03:17:07,440 --> 03:17:11,200
Speaker 7: used to stand in Uzurat refugee camp south of Wadi Gaza,

3666
03:17:11,680 --> 03:17:15,279
Speaker 7: in the supposed safe zone which Israel directed the Palestinians

3667
03:17:15,320 --> 03:17:19,160
Speaker 7: who fled their homes in northern and central Gaza. It

3668
03:17:19,360 --> 03:17:23,000
Speaker 7: therefore served as a temporary shelter for the displaced before

3669
03:17:23,120 --> 03:17:27,119
Speaker 7: getting obliterated into smithereens and bombed to the ground, killing

3670
03:17:27,240 --> 03:17:31,720
Speaker 7: hundreds of people. According to an investigation by Amnesty International,

3671
03:17:31,879 --> 03:17:36,520
Speaker 7: on October ninth, Israel shelled at least three multi story buildings,

3672
03:17:36,680 --> 03:17:39,279
Speaker 7: as well as an open flea market on a crowded

3673
03:17:39,320 --> 03:17:42,800
Speaker 7: street in the Jebelier refugee camp, killing at least sixty

3674
03:17:42,920 --> 03:17:46,520
Speaker 7: nine people. The father of a child who was killed said,

3675
03:17:47,200 --> 03:17:50,000
Speaker 7: the bodies were burned. I didn't want to look. I

3676
03:17:50,160 --> 03:17:54,080
Speaker 7: was scared of looking at Yamad's face. The bodies were

3677
03:17:54,120 --> 03:17:57,240
Speaker 7: scattered on the floor. Everyone was looking for their children

3678
03:17:57,320 --> 03:18:01,120
Speaker 7: in these piles. I recognized my son only by his trousers.

3679
03:18:01,720 --> 03:18:04,480
Speaker 7: I wanted to bury him immediately, so I carried my

3680
03:18:04,600 --> 03:18:09,880
Speaker 7: son and got him out. According to intelligence sources, Habsorah

3681
03:18:10,040 --> 03:18:13,960
Speaker 7: aka the Gospel the Ai system we mentioned earlier. This

3682
03:18:14,120 --> 03:18:18,640
Speaker 7: AI system generates, among other things, automatic recommendations for attacking

3683
03:18:18,800 --> 03:18:24,440
Speaker 7: private residences where people suspected in bold suspected of being

3684
03:18:24,520 --> 03:18:29,240
Speaker 7: Hamas or Islamic s Jahat operatives live. Israel then carries

3685
03:18:29,280 --> 03:18:33,000
Speaker 7: out large scale assassination operations through the heavy shelling of

3686
03:18:33,080 --> 03:18:37,800
Speaker 7: these residential homes. Haabsorah explained one of the sources processes

3687
03:18:37,959 --> 03:18:41,000
Speaker 7: enormous amounts of data that quote tens of thousands of

3688
03:18:41,080 --> 03:18:45,240
Speaker 7: intelligence officers could not process, as well as recommending bombing

3689
03:18:45,360 --> 03:18:49,359
Speaker 7: sites in real time. I wanted to put in bolds

3690
03:18:49,400 --> 03:18:52,959
Speaker 7: suspected because that is a crazy thing to do when

3691
03:18:53,000 --> 03:18:54,760
Speaker 7: you don't know for sure what the fuck you're doing

3692
03:18:54,800 --> 03:18:57,480
Speaker 7: and who the fuck you're killing. Just putting it out

3693
03:18:57,520 --> 03:19:00,840
Speaker 7: there that it's at this point can't be any clearer

3694
03:19:00,920 --> 03:19:04,240
Speaker 7: that it's not about Hamas. It's about the eradication of

3695
03:19:04,360 --> 03:19:06,800
Speaker 7: the Palestinian people, which has been slowly happening for the

3696
03:19:06,800 --> 03:19:10,039
Speaker 7: past seventy five years, and now it has accelerated. It's

3697
03:19:10,040 --> 03:19:12,040
Speaker 7: not about Hamas because that is a crazy thing to

3698
03:19:12,120 --> 03:19:16,320
Speaker 7: do if you're only targeting Hamas. One former intelligence officer

3699
03:19:16,440 --> 03:19:19,320
Speaker 7: explained that the Hubsori system enables the army to run

3700
03:19:19,400 --> 03:19:23,320
Speaker 7: a quote mass assassination factory, in which the quote emphasis

3701
03:19:23,440 --> 03:19:28,039
Speaker 7: is on the quantity and not quality. A human eye

3702
03:19:28,240 --> 03:19:31,160
Speaker 7: will quote go over the targets before each attack, but

3703
03:19:31,320 --> 03:19:33,560
Speaker 7: it need not spend a lot of time on them.

3704
03:19:34,320 --> 03:19:37,279
Speaker 7: In twenty nineteen, the Israeli Army created a new center

3705
03:19:37,360 --> 03:19:41,439
Speaker 7: aimed at using AI to accelerate target generation. The Target's

3706
03:19:41,440 --> 03:19:45,240
Speaker 7: Administrative Division is a unit that includes hundreds of officers

3707
03:19:45,320 --> 03:19:48,840
Speaker 7: and soldiers and is based on AI capabilities. This is

3708
03:19:48,879 --> 03:19:52,680
Speaker 7: according to the former IOF Chief of Staff, Aviv Coochavi,

3709
03:19:53,160 --> 03:19:55,760
Speaker 7: and he gave an in depth interview about this earlier

3710
03:19:55,840 --> 03:19:59,520
Speaker 7: this year. He said, this is a machine that, with

3711
03:19:59,640 --> 03:20:03,000
Speaker 7: the help AI, processes a lot of data better and

3712
03:20:03,120 --> 03:20:07,720
Speaker 7: faster than any human and translates it into targets for attack.

3713
03:20:08,480 --> 03:20:11,440
Speaker 7: The result was that an operation Guardian of the Walls

3714
03:20:11,480 --> 03:20:14,760
Speaker 7: in twenty twenty one, from the moment this machine was activated,

3715
03:20:14,879 --> 03:20:18,400
Speaker 7: it generated one hundred new targets every day. You see

3716
03:20:18,920 --> 03:20:21,240
Speaker 7: in the past there were times in Gaza when we

3717
03:20:21,280 --> 03:20:25,640
Speaker 7: would create fifty targets per year, and here the machine

3718
03:20:25,720 --> 03:20:29,200
Speaker 7: produced one hundred targets in one day. One of the

3719
03:20:29,280 --> 03:20:32,040
Speaker 7: sources of the investigation by plus nine to seventy two

3720
03:20:32,120 --> 03:20:36,200
Speaker 7: magazine said, we prepare the targets automatically and work according

3721
03:20:36,280 --> 03:20:39,680
Speaker 7: to a checklist. This source also worked in the new

3722
03:20:39,800 --> 03:20:44,440
Speaker 7: target's administrative division. They said, it really is like a factory.

3723
03:20:44,959 --> 03:20:47,560
Speaker 7: We work quickly and there is no time to delve

3724
03:20:47,640 --> 03:20:50,520
Speaker 7: deep into the target. The view is that we are

3725
03:20:50,640 --> 03:20:53,879
Speaker 7: judged according to how many targets we managed to generate.

3726
03:20:54,600 --> 03:20:57,440
Speaker 7: A senior military official in charge of the target bank

3727
03:20:57,640 --> 03:21:00,680
Speaker 7: told Jerusalem Post earlier this year that thanks to the

3728
03:21:00,800 --> 03:21:03,960
Speaker 7: army's AI systems, for the first time, the military can

3729
03:21:04,040 --> 03:21:07,199
Speaker 7: generate new targets at a faster rate than it attacks.

3730
03:21:08,000 --> 03:21:10,880
Speaker 7: One more time for emphasis, for the first time ever,

3731
03:21:11,240 --> 03:21:15,680
Speaker 7: thanks to AI systems, the military generates new targets faster

3732
03:21:15,920 --> 03:21:19,680
Speaker 7: than it can attack them. Another source said the drive

3733
03:21:19,800 --> 03:21:23,760
Speaker 7: to automatically generate large numbers of targets is a realization

3734
03:21:24,360 --> 03:21:28,440
Speaker 7: of the Dahia doctrine. The Dahia doctrine, as mentioned earlier,

3735
03:21:28,800 --> 03:21:32,320
Speaker 7: is when Israel uses this proportionate and overwhelming force when

3736
03:21:32,400 --> 03:21:37,000
Speaker 7: targeting civilian and government infrastructure in order to establish deterrence

3737
03:21:37,360 --> 03:21:41,440
Speaker 7: and make the palasinging people cower and fear and admit

3738
03:21:41,520 --> 03:21:46,680
Speaker 7: defeat essentially, and so this AI system is really helping

3739
03:21:47,000 --> 03:21:51,520
Speaker 7: achieve this Dahia doctrine. In the process. Automated systems like

3740
03:21:51,600 --> 03:21:55,439
Speaker 7: HPSURA have thus greatly facilitated the work of Israeli intelligence

3741
03:21:55,480 --> 03:22:01,040
Speaker 7: officers and making decisions during military operations, including calculating potential casualties.

3742
03:22:01,800 --> 03:22:05,160
Speaker 7: Five different sources confirmed that the number of civilians who

3743
03:22:05,200 --> 03:22:08,640
Speaker 7: may be killed in attacks on private residences is known

3744
03:22:08,800 --> 03:22:12,520
Speaker 7: in advance to Israeli intelligence and appears clearly in the

3745
03:22:12,600 --> 03:22:17,680
Speaker 7: target file under the category quote collateral damage. According to

3746
03:22:17,760 --> 03:22:21,120
Speaker 7: these sources, there are degrees of collateral damage according to

3747
03:22:21,200 --> 03:22:24,000
Speaker 7: which the army determines whether it is possible to attack

3748
03:22:24,040 --> 03:22:27,959
Speaker 7: a target inside of private residence. One of the sources said,

3749
03:22:28,200 --> 03:22:32,600
Speaker 7: when the general directive becomes quote collateral damage five, that

3750
03:22:32,760 --> 03:22:35,600
Speaker 7: means we are authorized to strike all targets that will

3751
03:22:35,720 --> 03:22:39,320
Speaker 7: kill five or less civilians. We can act on all

3752
03:22:39,400 --> 03:22:43,280
Speaker 7: target files that are five or less. A security official

3753
03:22:43,280 --> 03:22:47,880
Speaker 7: who participated in attacking targets during previous operations said, in

3754
03:22:48,000 --> 03:22:50,600
Speaker 7: the past, we did not regularly mark the homes of

3755
03:22:50,720 --> 03:22:54,000
Speaker 7: junior Hamas members for bombing. In my time, if the

3756
03:22:54,080 --> 03:22:57,000
Speaker 7: house I was working on was marked collateral damage five,

3757
03:22:57,520 --> 03:23:00,840
Speaker 7: it would not always be approved for attack. Such approval,

3758
03:23:00,959 --> 03:23:04,160
Speaker 7: he said, would only be received if a senior Hammas

3759
03:23:04,240 --> 03:23:07,320
Speaker 7: commander was known to be living in the home. To

3760
03:23:07,440 --> 03:23:10,720
Speaker 7: my understanding, today they can mark all the houses of

3761
03:23:10,800 --> 03:23:15,200
Speaker 7: any Hammas military operative, regardless of rank or confirmation of membership.

3762
03:23:15,879 --> 03:23:19,200
Speaker 7: The source added that is a lot of houses. Hamas

3763
03:23:19,280 --> 03:23:22,520
Speaker 7: members who don't really matter for anything live in homes

3764
03:23:22,680 --> 03:23:26,040
Speaker 7: all across Gaza, so they mark the home and bomb

3765
03:23:26,160 --> 03:23:30,120
Speaker 7: the house and kill everyone there. On October twenty second,

3766
03:23:30,240 --> 03:23:33,400
Speaker 7: the Israeli Air Force bombed the home of Palestinian journalist

3767
03:23:33,520 --> 03:23:36,440
Speaker 7: Ahmad al Nahouch in the city of Der El Badach.

3768
03:23:37,280 --> 03:23:40,720
Speaker 7: The strike on October twenty second collapsed blocks of concrete

3769
03:23:40,800 --> 03:23:45,800
Speaker 7: onto Ahmed's entire family, killing his father, brothers, sisters, and

3770
03:23:45,959 --> 03:23:50,080
Speaker 7: all of their children, including babies. Only his twelve year

3771
03:23:50,120 --> 03:23:54,080
Speaker 7: old niece, Manak survived and remained in critical condition, her

3772
03:23:54,160 --> 03:23:58,280
Speaker 7: body covered in burns. A few days later, Malak died.

3773
03:23:59,160 --> 03:24:02,360
Speaker 7: Twenty one members of Ahmed's family were killed in total,

3774
03:24:02,680 --> 03:24:07,160
Speaker 7: buried under their home. None of them were militants. The

3775
03:24:07,320 --> 03:24:10,920
Speaker 7: youngest was two years old, the oldest his father, was

3776
03:24:11,000 --> 03:24:15,080
Speaker 7: seventy five. Ahmed, who was now currently living in the UK,

3777
03:24:16,120 --> 03:24:21,800
Speaker 7: is alone without his entire family. This part particularly gutted me.

3778
03:24:22,600 --> 03:24:27,640
Speaker 7: But Ahmed's family WhatsApp group the group text thread that

3779
03:24:27,720 --> 03:24:31,080
Speaker 7: he had with his family. It was titled better Together.

3780
03:24:32,280 --> 03:24:35,000
Speaker 7: The last message that appears in this group was sent

3781
03:24:35,120 --> 03:24:37,800
Speaker 7: by him a little after midnight on the night that

3782
03:24:37,840 --> 03:24:42,280
Speaker 7: he lost his family. He sent this message someone let

3783
03:24:42,360 --> 03:24:46,360
Speaker 7: me know that everything is fine. No one answered. He

3784
03:24:46,480 --> 03:24:49,119
Speaker 7: fell asleep and woke up in a panic at four am,

3785
03:24:49,560 --> 03:24:53,080
Speaker 7: drenched and swept, and he checked his phone again nothing,

3786
03:24:53,800 --> 03:24:56,200
Speaker 7: and then he received a message from a friend with

3787
03:24:56,320 --> 03:25:01,360
Speaker 7: the terrible news. Unfortunately Ahmed's. The case is very common

3788
03:25:01,400 --> 03:25:05,040
Speaker 7: in Gaza these days. In interviews to the press, heads

3789
03:25:05,080 --> 03:25:09,120
Speaker 7: of Gaza hospitals have been echoing the same description. Families

3790
03:25:09,320 --> 03:25:13,920
Speaker 7: enter hospitals as a succession of corpses. A child, followed

3791
03:25:14,000 --> 03:25:17,920
Speaker 7: by his father, followed by his grandfather. The bodies are

3792
03:25:17,959 --> 03:25:21,480
Speaker 7: all covered in dirt and blood. The report does not

3793
03:25:21,640 --> 03:25:24,480
Speaker 7: have data regarding the number of military operatives who were

3794
03:25:24,560 --> 03:25:27,800
Speaker 7: indeed killed or wounded in aerial strikes on private residences

3795
03:25:27,879 --> 03:25:31,160
Speaker 7: in the current genocide, but there is ample evidence that

3796
03:25:31,600 --> 03:25:35,760
Speaker 7: in many, many cases, if not most, vast majority of

3797
03:25:36,760 --> 03:25:39,760
Speaker 7: none of the people killed or military or political operatives

3798
03:25:39,879 --> 03:25:44,360
Speaker 7: belonging to Hamas or Islamic Jihad, the bombing of family

3799
03:25:44,480 --> 03:25:49,600
Speaker 7: homes where Hamas and Islamic Jihad operatives supposedly live. It

3800
03:25:49,800 --> 03:25:53,600
Speaker 7: likely became a more concerted IOF policy during Operation Protective

3801
03:25:53,680 --> 03:25:56,920
Speaker 7: Edge in twenty fourteen, and this is when Israel began

3802
03:25:57,040 --> 03:26:01,000
Speaker 7: to systematically strike family homes from the air. Human rights

3803
03:26:01,080 --> 03:26:05,240
Speaker 7: groups like Betstellem collected testimonies from Palestinians who survived these attacks.

3804
03:26:05,840 --> 03:26:09,879
Speaker 7: The survivors said the homes collapsed in on themselves, glass

3805
03:26:10,000 --> 03:26:13,440
Speaker 7: shards cut through the bodies of those inside, the debris

3806
03:26:13,520 --> 03:26:17,640
Speaker 7: smelled of blood, and people were buried alive. A UN

3807
03:26:17,720 --> 03:26:21,320
Speaker 7: report defined this in twenty fifteen as both a potential

3808
03:26:21,400 --> 03:26:24,840
Speaker 7: war crime and a new pattern of action that led

3809
03:26:24,879 --> 03:26:28,960
Speaker 7: to the death of entire families. And we're seeing this

3810
03:26:29,080 --> 03:26:34,280
Speaker 7: pattern repeat in real time right now. In twenty fourteen,

3811
03:26:34,640 --> 03:26:37,680
Speaker 7: ninety three babies were killed as a result of Israeli

3812
03:26:37,760 --> 03:26:42,000
Speaker 7: bombings on family homes, of which thirteen were under one

3813
03:26:42,120 --> 03:26:46,240
Speaker 7: year old. As of a month ago, two hundred and

3814
03:26:46,280 --> 03:26:50,440
Speaker 7: eighty six babies aged one year under were identified as

3815
03:26:50,520 --> 03:26:54,000
Speaker 7: having been killed in Gaza. And this is according to

3816
03:26:54,120 --> 03:26:57,320
Speaker 7: a detailed idealist with the ages of victims published by

3817
03:26:57,360 --> 03:27:00,760
Speaker 7: the Gaza Ministry of Health on October twenty six. This

3818
03:27:01,000 --> 03:27:05,360
Speaker 7: number has likely doubled and tripled, if not more, at

3819
03:27:05,400 --> 03:27:09,960
Speaker 7: this point. So in many cases, especially during the current

3820
03:27:10,000 --> 03:27:13,840
Speaker 7: attacks on Gaza, the Israeli Army carries out attacks that

3821
03:27:14,000 --> 03:27:17,080
Speaker 7: strike private residences even when there is no known or

3822
03:27:17,240 --> 03:27:22,000
Speaker 7: clear military target. For example, according to the Committee to

3823
03:27:22,080 --> 03:27:26,720
Speaker 7: Protect Journalists, by November twenty ninth, Israel had killed fifty

3824
03:27:26,840 --> 03:27:30,520
Speaker 7: Palestinian journalists in Gaza, some of them in their homes

3825
03:27:30,680 --> 03:27:34,680
Speaker 7: with their families. The murdering of these journalists, again, may

3826
03:27:34,720 --> 03:27:37,840
Speaker 7: I remind you, is very deliberate as far as silencing

3827
03:27:37,920 --> 03:27:41,000
Speaker 7: Palestine and people in Gaza from sharing the truth about

3828
03:27:41,000 --> 03:27:44,440
Speaker 7: what's going on. Rosti Charage is one of these journalists

3829
03:27:44,440 --> 03:27:47,359
Speaker 7: who was killed, who was thirty one, and a journalist

3830
03:27:47,440 --> 03:27:49,920
Speaker 7: in Gaza who was born in Britain who founded a

3831
03:27:50,040 --> 03:27:54,199
Speaker 7: media outlet in Gaza called Almidia. On October twenty second,

3832
03:27:54,280 --> 03:27:57,400
Speaker 7: an Israeli bomb struck his parents' house where he was sleeping,

3833
03:27:57,840 --> 03:28:03,000
Speaker 7: killing him. There's also journalists Salam Memma who similarly died

3834
03:28:03,080 --> 03:28:05,520
Speaker 7: under the ruins of her home after it was bombed,

3835
03:28:06,480 --> 03:28:10,480
Speaker 7: of her three young children. Hadi seven died while sham

3836
03:28:11,200 --> 03:28:14,199
Speaker 7: Aged three has not been yet found. Under the rebel,

3837
03:28:15,120 --> 03:28:19,279
Speaker 7: two other journalists, Dua Shutaff and Sema Makimad were killed

3838
03:28:19,400 --> 03:28:23,600
Speaker 7: together with their children in their homes. As of this recording,

3839
03:28:24,120 --> 03:28:28,920
Speaker 7: Israel has killed over sixty journalists since October seventh. That's

3840
03:28:28,959 --> 03:28:32,720
Speaker 7: going to be the episode for today because that was

3841
03:28:32,720 --> 03:28:36,800
Speaker 7: a lot, and I hope it was helpful. This investigative

3842
03:28:36,840 --> 03:28:40,120
Speaker 7: report is extremely important, especially now that we're seeing these

3843
03:28:40,200 --> 03:28:44,240
Speaker 7: Israeli officials and officers shamelessly saying that they're trying their

3844
03:28:44,280 --> 03:28:48,039
Speaker 7: best to avoid civilian casualties, when here we have proof

3845
03:28:48,600 --> 03:28:51,240
Speaker 7: that that is in fact a lie. So I want

3846
03:28:51,280 --> 03:28:56,600
Speaker 7: to do this episode to counteract the argument that this

3847
03:28:56,760 --> 03:29:02,360
Speaker 7: is about Hamas. It's not about Hamas, isn't Nothing can

3848
03:29:02,560 --> 03:29:08,760
Speaker 7: justify this amount of murder and death of people, point blank.

3849
03:29:09,520 --> 03:29:16,600
Speaker 7: Absolutely nothing justifies a genocide. Nothing. So I hope you

3850
03:29:16,640 --> 03:29:20,160
Speaker 7: guys keep learning about Palestine and raising awareness about the

3851
03:29:20,200 --> 03:29:24,920
Speaker 7: genocide and staying active in your communities and following Palestinian

3852
03:29:25,000 --> 03:29:28,200
Speaker 7: journalists that are still alive and risking their lives to

3853
03:29:28,240 --> 03:29:32,560
Speaker 7: share information. Motaz Azaiza is one of these journalists that

3854
03:29:33,280 --> 03:29:37,560
Speaker 7: is consistently posting on his stories There's also Bisan who

3855
03:29:38,080 --> 03:29:42,600
Speaker 7: is at Wizard Underscore Bisan one on Instagram. She's been

3856
03:29:42,920 --> 03:29:48,200
Speaker 7: an incredible source and really just being so vulnerable and

3857
03:29:48,280 --> 03:29:51,200
Speaker 7: sharing exactly what's going on. And I have no idea,

3858
03:29:52,120 --> 03:29:54,480
Speaker 7: and I hope I never do. How hard it is

3859
03:29:54,800 --> 03:29:58,760
Speaker 7: to not have time for grief. Palestinians do not have

3860
03:29:58,920 --> 03:30:02,600
Speaker 7: time to grieve their day. They're too busy photographing them

3861
03:30:02,640 --> 03:30:05,760
Speaker 7: and videoing them, so the world will even believe that

3862
03:30:05,920 --> 03:30:09,360
Speaker 7: they're going through a genocide. Something I wanted to bring

3863
03:30:09,480 --> 03:30:12,640
Speaker 7: up is that these journalists in Gaza are the ones

3864
03:30:12,720 --> 03:30:17,120
Speaker 7: that are left. They've been posting these heartbreaking last messages

3865
03:30:17,320 --> 03:30:21,920
Speaker 7: on social media. Be SAand posted on December second, I

3866
03:30:22,040 --> 03:30:24,560
Speaker 7: no longer have any hope of survival like I had

3867
03:30:24,640 --> 03:30:27,199
Speaker 7: at the beginning of this genocide, and I am certain

3868
03:30:27,280 --> 03:30:29,200
Speaker 7: that I will die in the next few weeks or

3869
03:30:29,240 --> 03:30:32,800
Speaker 7: maybe days. My message to the world, you are not

3870
03:30:32,959 --> 03:30:36,199
Speaker 7: innocent of what is happening to us. You, as governments

3871
03:30:36,360 --> 03:30:40,520
Speaker 7: or peoples that support Israel's annihilation of my people, we

3872
03:30:40,600 --> 03:30:44,320
Speaker 7: will not forgive you. Humanity will not forgive you. Even

3873
03:30:44,440 --> 03:30:49,320
Speaker 7: if we die. The history will never forget Motaz, also

3874
03:30:49,440 --> 03:30:53,200
Speaker 7: on December second, said it's about life or death. Now

3875
03:30:54,000 --> 03:30:57,400
Speaker 7: I did what I could. We are surrounded by Israeli tanks.

3876
03:30:57,840 --> 03:31:01,280
Speaker 7: Gaza's strip is getting divided into three parts, the North

3877
03:31:01,360 --> 03:31:03,800
Speaker 7: of Gaza, the Middle area and De La Baah and

3878
03:31:03,920 --> 03:31:08,320
Speaker 7: Han Yunis and the Dafa. The movement is becoming nearly impossible,

3879
03:31:08,800 --> 03:31:11,800
Speaker 7: and of course there is no safe place and people

3880
03:31:12,080 --> 03:31:15,040
Speaker 7: just don't know where to go. It is hard to

3881
03:31:15,160 --> 03:31:17,600
Speaker 7: keep up and watch, but it's truly the least you

3882
03:31:17,680 --> 03:31:22,640
Speaker 7: can do. We are so privileged in one me making

3883
03:31:22,680 --> 03:31:26,120
Speaker 7: a podcast and you listening to it, So the very

3884
03:31:26,240 --> 03:31:28,560
Speaker 7: least we can do is use our privilege to help

3885
03:31:28,680 --> 03:31:32,280
Speaker 7: those in need and be the mouthpiece that they so

3886
03:31:32,480 --> 03:31:36,720
Speaker 7: desperately want and are begging for, and not letting their

3887
03:31:36,760 --> 03:31:39,840
Speaker 7: stories be buried under the rubble with them just because

3888
03:31:39,959 --> 03:31:43,880
Speaker 7: Israel is trying to cover it up. So with that,

3889
03:31:44,640 --> 03:32:04,880
Speaker 7: I'll see you next time. Hello, This is Shreen and

3890
03:32:04,959 --> 03:32:07,440
Speaker 7: I'm joined by James. There's no preamble here, We're just

3891
03:32:07,520 --> 03:32:09,240
Speaker 7: gonna introduce ourselves.

3892
03:32:10,240 --> 03:32:12,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, we know fucking around here, serious business.

3893
03:32:13,160 --> 03:32:16,080
Speaker 7: I actually like every time I start recording, I genuinely

3894
03:32:16,120 --> 03:32:19,160
Speaker 7: don't know how to start a podcast. I don't know

3895
03:32:19,240 --> 03:32:21,360
Speaker 7: any like at any time this happens, I feel like

3896
03:32:21,480 --> 03:32:22,760
Speaker 7: I am doing it for the first time.

3897
03:32:24,040 --> 03:32:24,280
Speaker 9: Me too.

3898
03:32:24,600 --> 03:32:26,080
Speaker 4: We could just do a thing like robot what we

3899
03:32:26,280 --> 03:32:28,280
Speaker 4: just kind of making gay?

3900
03:32:29,720 --> 03:32:32,480
Speaker 7: Yeah exactly. Yeah, maybe next time I'll have to practice

3901
03:32:32,520 --> 03:32:35,480
Speaker 7: that in the mirror a few times. But thank you

3902
03:32:35,560 --> 03:32:38,560
Speaker 7: for joining me today. Essentially, today we're going to talk

3903
03:32:38,560 --> 03:32:43,160
Speaker 7: about the rise in Islamophobia and how the demonization and

3904
03:32:43,240 --> 03:32:47,879
Speaker 7: dehumanization of Muslims and Arabs leads people to be scared

3905
03:32:47,959 --> 03:32:52,640
Speaker 7: of something like a scarf. The kaffeia is the black

3906
03:32:52,720 --> 03:32:55,880
Speaker 7: and white checkered scarf you might have seen that's worn

3907
03:32:55,920 --> 03:32:59,800
Speaker 7: by Palestinians and their supporters, and it's really symbolic and

3908
03:33:00,040 --> 03:33:03,720
Speaker 7: corn to Palestinians, and especially after those three students in

3909
03:33:03,840 --> 03:33:06,800
Speaker 7: Vermont were targeted because of the kafia, I thought it

3910
03:33:06,959 --> 03:33:09,959
Speaker 7: was worth discussing what it is. If you hear noise

3911
03:33:09,959 --> 03:33:12,280
Speaker 7: in the background, that is my cat and I apologize.

3912
03:33:12,360 --> 03:33:13,680
Speaker 7: That's just texture for POD.

3913
03:33:14,160 --> 03:33:16,760
Speaker 4: So texture for pod, you know, that's what we give

3914
03:33:16,840 --> 03:33:17,040
Speaker 4: you it.

3915
03:33:17,640 --> 03:33:22,080
Speaker 9: Yes, but yeah, we're going to talk about kafa, where

3916
03:33:22,120 --> 03:33:24,280
Speaker 9: it comes from, what it means, why people do it.

3917
03:33:26,160 --> 03:33:28,600
Speaker 9: The time that United Airlines and Rachel Ray joined the

3918
03:33:28,680 --> 03:33:33,039
Speaker 9: forces of International jihad. It's going to be an interesting podcast.

3919
03:33:33,440 --> 03:33:35,200
Speaker 7: Yeah, I didn't know about that part, so I'm excited

3920
03:33:35,240 --> 03:33:36,040
Speaker 7: for you to tell me about it.

3921
03:33:36,879 --> 03:33:37,080
Speaker 4: Yeah.

3922
03:33:37,360 --> 03:33:41,160
Speaker 9: I'm excited to talk about United Airlines like great, long

3923
03:33:41,240 --> 03:33:42,840
Speaker 9: time supported to the Palestinian course.

3924
03:33:44,800 --> 03:33:46,920
Speaker 7: So first, before we start to talk about the Kaffia,

3925
03:33:46,959 --> 03:33:51,160
Speaker 7: I want to talk about this uptick in anti Muslim,

3926
03:33:51,200 --> 03:33:54,160
Speaker 7: anti Arab, anti Palestinian hate, because we've been seeing a

3927
03:33:54,200 --> 03:33:57,520
Speaker 7: lot of supporters of Palestine lose their jobs. An agent

3928
03:33:57,560 --> 03:34:01,440
Speaker 7: in CIA, a lawyer in England, numerous journalists and news anchors.

3929
03:34:01,959 --> 03:34:04,360
Speaker 7: And this is an element of solomophobia that I don't

3930
03:34:04,360 --> 03:34:09,360
Speaker 7: think we take seriously enough, because liking or sharing a

3931
03:34:09,440 --> 03:34:13,160
Speaker 7: social media post denouncing genocide should only be seen as that,

3932
03:34:13,520 --> 03:34:16,600
Speaker 7: just a post denouncing genocide. I think the meanings that

3933
03:34:16,680 --> 03:34:21,760
Speaker 7: people push onto these things is really dangerous, and discussions

3934
03:34:21,959 --> 03:34:24,360
Speaker 7: and meetings on the issue have been barred. People who

3935
03:34:24,440 --> 03:34:27,320
Speaker 7: express any kind of sympathy for Palestine, even in old

3936
03:34:27,400 --> 03:34:30,160
Speaker 7: social media posts, have been dismissed from their job. We're

3937
03:34:30,160 --> 03:34:33,119
Speaker 7: seeing counter campaigns by pro Israel groups in the US

3938
03:34:33,240 --> 03:34:35,960
Speaker 7: trying to globally shut down the voices of pro Palestinian

3939
03:34:36,040 --> 03:34:41,400
Speaker 7: activists and to criminalize elements of Palestinian identity itself, for example,

3940
03:34:41,600 --> 03:34:45,080
Speaker 7: like displaying the Palestinian flag or wearing the Caffea headdress

3941
03:34:45,120 --> 03:34:48,320
Speaker 7: slash scarf. And this week, I think it's worth mentioning

3942
03:34:48,400 --> 03:34:52,480
Speaker 7: that the House passed Resolution eight ninety four, which equates

3943
03:34:52,560 --> 03:34:57,680
Speaker 7: criticizing Israel with being anti Semitic. Ninety five Democrats helped

3944
03:34:57,720 --> 03:35:01,520
Speaker 7: the House GOP pass this extremely ingenuous and dangerous resolution,

3945
03:35:02,560 --> 03:35:06,080
Speaker 7: and in their words, it's against anti Semitism, but it

3946
03:35:06,200 --> 03:35:09,040
Speaker 7: is extremely dangerous for the Jewish community in and of

3947
03:35:09,120 --> 03:35:14,560
Speaker 7: itself because condemning any criticism of the Israeli state should

3948
03:35:14,600 --> 03:35:16,760
Speaker 7: only be taken for that. That's the thing that I understand.

3949
03:35:16,760 --> 03:35:18,320
Speaker 7: People people project onto things.

3950
03:35:18,840 --> 03:35:22,199
Speaker 9: Yeah, anti signism. I wanted to like, when I'm studying

3951
03:35:22,200 --> 03:35:24,840
Speaker 9: at UCSD, one of the professors who I was very

3952
03:35:24,879 --> 03:35:28,040
Speaker 9: fond of, who was very informative from academic opinions and

3953
03:35:28,080 --> 03:35:30,320
Speaker 9: the way I teach, especially with someone called Debrah Hurtz,

3954
03:35:30,320 --> 03:35:33,440
Speaker 9: who's head of the Jewish Studies Department at UCSD. She

3955
03:35:33,640 --> 03:35:36,680
Speaker 9: is one of dozens, it's not maybe maybe hundreds of

3956
03:35:36,720 --> 03:35:41,040
Speaker 9: academics who signed something called the Jerusalem Declaration, which, like

3957
03:35:41,720 --> 03:35:44,160
Speaker 9: I believe most of them are involved in Jewish studies

3958
03:35:44,320 --> 03:35:45,320
Speaker 9: or Holocaust studies.

3959
03:35:45,560 --> 03:35:47,160
Speaker 4: It's throughout Palatini Middleat studies.

3960
03:35:46,959 --> 03:35:49,760
Speaker 9: Something like that, right, And like, I think it's useful

3961
03:35:49,800 --> 03:35:53,320
Speaker 9: to have some clarity around these topics because, like, right now,

3962
03:35:53,360 --> 03:35:56,680
Speaker 9: there are people who gave zero fucks about antisemitism when

3963
03:35:56,720 --> 03:36:01,520
Speaker 9: there were literal mobs carrying tortures through the streets screaming

3964
03:36:01,560 --> 03:36:05,119
Speaker 9: about Jewish people, right when when some of the people

3965
03:36:06,120 --> 03:36:08,200
Speaker 9: listening to this podcast, and people are on this podcast

3966
03:36:08,280 --> 03:36:10,520
Speaker 9: made every effort to call out what it was, when

3967
03:36:11,000 --> 03:36:14,280
Speaker 9: large numbers of people in Congress didn't give a fuck,

3968
03:36:14,480 --> 03:36:18,360
Speaker 9: weren't ready to call like literal genocidal fascism, genocidal fascism

3969
03:36:18,800 --> 03:36:21,240
Speaker 9: in case it got some votes or money. Now now

3970
03:36:21,280 --> 03:36:23,920
Speaker 9: they're ready to. Now they're ready to go hard as

3971
03:36:24,000 --> 03:36:28,240
Speaker 9: fuck against Palestinian people. Which it does seem like there's

3972
03:36:28,240 --> 03:36:29,920
Speaker 9: a whole lot of people in Congress who weren't given

3973
03:36:29,959 --> 03:36:32,280
Speaker 9: a cudgel to beat Muslim people. Won't think about it

3974
03:36:32,320 --> 03:36:35,120
Speaker 9: for more than five seconds, but I do want to.

3975
03:36:35,120 --> 03:36:38,199
Speaker 9: I just want to read this part from the Jeruisdom Declaration,

3976
03:36:38,320 --> 03:36:39,800
Speaker 9: the Jeruisom Declaration dot org.

3977
03:36:39,879 --> 03:36:41,119
Speaker 4: You can find yourself.

3978
03:36:41,400 --> 03:36:45,360
Speaker 9: Criticizing or opposing Zionism as the form of nationalism, or

3979
03:36:45,520 --> 03:36:48,720
Speaker 9: arguing for a variety of constitutional arrangements for Jewish or

3980
03:36:48,760 --> 03:36:51,760
Speaker 9: Palestinian people in the area between the Jordan River and

3981
03:36:51,800 --> 03:36:54,360
Speaker 9: the Mediterranean. That's listed under things which are not on

3982
03:36:54,440 --> 03:36:57,000
Speaker 9: the face of anti semitic. Right, it goes on, it

3983
03:36:57,160 --> 03:36:59,800
Speaker 9: is not anti semitic to support arrangement so called full

3984
03:36:59,840 --> 03:37:02,360
Speaker 9: of quality to all inhabitants between the river and the sea,

3985
03:37:02,680 --> 03:37:05,240
Speaker 9: whether in two states are by national state, a unitary

3986
03:37:05,320 --> 03:37:09,320
Speaker 9: democratic state, a federal state, or in whatever form. I

3987
03:37:09,360 --> 03:37:12,280
Speaker 9: think that's pretty clear, right, Like obviously the variety of

3988
03:37:12,360 --> 03:37:16,880
Speaker 9: options there, all of which are neither genocidal nor in

3989
03:37:16,959 --> 03:37:19,560
Speaker 9: the face of it anti semitic. It's just like this

3990
03:37:19,680 --> 03:37:23,039
Speaker 9: is just a canard, like I saw Scott Peters, who

3991
03:37:23,160 --> 03:37:26,520
Speaker 9: is the congress person for Poway. Scott Peters, I think

3992
03:37:26,560 --> 03:37:28,880
Speaker 9: it's pretty uncontroversial to say it's a giant piece of shit.

3993
03:37:29,360 --> 03:37:31,520
Speaker 9: Scott Peters is the reason why my incidence still costs

3994
03:37:31,560 --> 03:37:34,800
Speaker 9: lots of money. Fuck Scott Peters. But he was in

3995
03:37:34,879 --> 03:37:37,960
Speaker 9: this case accusing UCSD students of being anti Semitic for

3996
03:37:38,080 --> 03:37:42,520
Speaker 9: passing a BDS resolution. Another thing that Jewishalem Declaration which

3997
03:37:42,560 --> 03:37:44,960
Speaker 9: again was signed by Deborah Hurtz, the head of Jewish

3998
03:37:44,959 --> 03:37:49,120
Speaker 9: Studies at UCSD, specifically calls out as not being on

3999
03:37:49,160 --> 03:37:52,039
Speaker 9: the face of anti Semitic right, like these people aren't

4000
03:37:52,720 --> 03:37:57,360
Speaker 9: in some cases listening to what Jewish Studies scholars are saying,

4001
03:37:57,800 --> 03:38:01,879
Speaker 9: And I think we need to be careful when obviously

4002
03:38:02,480 --> 03:38:05,560
Speaker 9: all of us will call it anti semitism right. I've

4003
03:38:05,640 --> 03:38:09,360
Speaker 9: been personally at the forefront of calling anti semitism in

4004
03:38:09,360 --> 03:38:11,959
Speaker 9: the law enforcement apparatus in San Diego when our DA

4005
03:38:12,959 --> 03:38:16,600
Speaker 9: used anti Semitic tropes in her twenty eighteen campaign that

4006
03:38:16,720 --> 03:38:20,000
Speaker 9: seems to have been memory hold. But because this I

4007
03:38:20,080 --> 03:38:23,360
Speaker 9: think is often simply being weaponized as another way to

4008
03:38:23,360 --> 03:38:29,640
Speaker 9: suppress protest movements and specifically to justify Islamophobia, which we

4009
03:38:29,720 --> 03:38:32,800
Speaker 9: should all stand against, like regardless of where we stand

4010
03:38:32,840 --> 03:38:37,600
Speaker 9: on two states, one state, whatever, Like I think if

4011
03:38:38,480 --> 03:38:40,840
Speaker 9: we can see people using something to the cudgel against

4012
03:38:40,840 --> 03:38:43,400
Speaker 9: a group of people who have been victimized by this

4013
03:38:43,520 --> 03:38:46,480
Speaker 9: state for a very long time, and they're continuing to

4014
03:38:46,560 --> 03:38:49,680
Speaker 9: do it like this shit got us twenty years of war,

4015
03:38:50,400 --> 03:38:53,840
Speaker 9: fucking tens of thousands of lives right ruined or last,

4016
03:38:54,240 --> 03:38:57,080
Speaker 9: and we're going right back to it and like, if

4017
03:38:57,080 --> 03:38:58,760
Speaker 9: you can't see why it's a problem, I don't know

4018
03:38:58,800 --> 03:38:59,920
Speaker 9: if I have much more to say.

4019
03:39:01,160 --> 03:39:02,039
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's not great.

4020
03:39:02,720 --> 03:39:06,240
Speaker 7: Yeah, I think that's a big reason why I wanted

4021
03:39:06,240 --> 03:39:10,560
Speaker 7: to bring up the resolution, because when you have pundits

4022
03:39:10,600 --> 03:39:13,520
Speaker 7: and politicians pointing at a pro Palestinian protest and being like,

4023
03:39:13,640 --> 03:39:17,760
Speaker 7: this is pro Hamas, and when the resolution specifically calls

4024
03:39:17,800 --> 03:39:20,720
Speaker 7: out the from the River to the Sea chant, which

4025
03:39:21,040 --> 03:39:23,280
Speaker 7: in theory should be protected by the First Amendment, but

4026
03:39:23,879 --> 03:39:27,800
Speaker 7: that's not real. That's what really troubles me, because it's

4027
03:39:28,200 --> 03:39:32,760
Speaker 7: vilifying the entire idea of supporting Palestine, and that includes

4028
03:39:32,920 --> 03:39:37,920
Speaker 7: any kind of display of supporting Palestine. And you're right,

4029
03:39:38,160 --> 03:39:42,160
Speaker 7: it almost cheapens the meaning of anti Semitism because it

4030
03:39:42,280 --> 03:39:46,320
Speaker 7: almost makes us overlook true danger to the Jewish people.

4031
03:39:46,360 --> 03:39:49,000
Speaker 7: And it also completely raises the identity of anti Zionist

4032
03:39:49,080 --> 03:39:53,080
Speaker 7: Jewish people, which makes up a big part of the

4033
03:39:53,160 --> 03:39:55,520
Speaker 7: Jewish community in my opinion, even though they want to

4034
03:39:55,680 --> 03:39:59,279
Speaker 7: make it seem like they're the minority, but the majority

4035
03:39:59,320 --> 03:40:03,640
Speaker 7: of Dinas country are actually even Jewish, So Zionism is yeah,

4036
03:40:03,800 --> 03:40:06,680
Speaker 7: equated to Jewishness in the slightest I.

4037
03:40:06,720 --> 03:40:09,320
Speaker 9: Didn't think like we need to see to Congress a

4038
03:40:09,400 --> 03:40:11,200
Speaker 9: group of people who, like I said, who have been

4039
03:40:12,240 --> 03:40:15,640
Speaker 9: justifying or in the Middle East for twenty years when

4040
03:40:15,720 --> 03:40:19,040
Speaker 9: it comes to defining what bigotry is, right, Like, we

4041
03:40:19,879 --> 03:40:22,960
Speaker 9: a group of people who are like ruining over a

4042
03:40:23,000 --> 03:40:24,960
Speaker 9: country that's built on stolen land by stolen people, Like,

4043
03:40:25,040 --> 03:40:26,480
Speaker 9: we don't have to listen to them. They don't get

4044
03:40:26,480 --> 03:40:28,440
Speaker 9: to tell us what it is and it's not these things,

4045
03:40:28,560 --> 03:40:31,120
Speaker 9: and like, yeah, you fucking do not get to talk

4046
03:40:31,240 --> 03:40:35,560
Speaker 9: about anti semitism when you said shit about Charlottesville, right, Like,

4047
03:40:36,200 --> 03:40:39,000
Speaker 9: it's clearly two phased, it's bullshit, and it's just a

4048
03:40:39,080 --> 03:40:41,400
Speaker 9: cultural with which to be a protest movement that they

4049
03:40:41,480 --> 03:40:45,800
Speaker 9: see as woke or leftist or comprised of Muslims who

4050
03:40:45,840 --> 03:40:49,879
Speaker 9: they think are less than and like it's obviously despicable

4051
03:40:49,920 --> 03:40:52,080
Speaker 9: the people who did say shit about Charlottesville will make

4052
03:40:52,080 --> 03:40:54,360
Speaker 9: common cause with these people who are very clearly doing

4053
03:40:54,400 --> 03:40:58,640
Speaker 9: this in bad faith. Yeah, it's we can oppose anti Semitism,

4054
03:40:58,680 --> 03:41:01,279
Speaker 9: and we should, and we can oppose Dlamophobia and we should.

4055
03:41:01,360 --> 03:41:03,680
Speaker 7: But opposing them goes hand in hand in my opinion,

4056
03:41:03,800 --> 03:41:07,880
Speaker 7: because we are essentially the same people Like I don't

4057
03:41:07,959 --> 03:41:11,160
Speaker 7: see a big separation. Obviously the hate is different, but

4058
03:41:11,280 --> 03:41:15,080
Speaker 7: I think fighting both Islamophobia and anti Semitism it goes

4059
03:41:15,120 --> 03:41:15,680
Speaker 7: hand in hand.

4060
03:41:16,240 --> 03:41:19,200
Speaker 9: Yeah, with that, we should mention also that like consistently

4061
03:41:19,240 --> 03:41:21,560
Speaker 9: missing an American discourse to seek sick people.

4062
03:41:21,840 --> 03:41:23,560
Speaker 7: There's something I want to get into in a little bit.

4063
03:41:23,959 --> 03:41:25,920
Speaker 7: I want to get into how there's a huge rise

4064
03:41:26,000 --> 03:41:29,840
Speaker 7: in Islamophobic attacks and specifically there was a Sikh person

4065
03:41:29,879 --> 03:41:33,400
Speaker 7: who was attacked because he was presumed to be Muslim.

4066
03:41:33,920 --> 03:41:39,840
Speaker 7: Because the anti Arab dehumanizing language that we hear in

4067
03:41:39,959 --> 03:41:43,840
Speaker 7: the media, it emboldens like hateful terrorists to commit hate

4068
03:41:43,920 --> 03:41:46,600
Speaker 7: crimes against Arab Muslim people or people who are just

4069
03:41:46,720 --> 03:41:49,600
Speaker 7: perceived to be Arab and Muslim. And I remember this

4070
03:41:49,879 --> 03:41:53,320
Speaker 7: the tweet that Biden tweeted a couple of weeks ago

4071
03:41:53,520 --> 03:41:55,400
Speaker 7: when he was trying to cover his ass and be like,

4072
03:41:55,480 --> 03:41:59,800
Speaker 7: we hate Slamophobia too, but he said people perceied to

4073
03:41:59,840 --> 03:42:03,200
Speaker 7: be Muslim and wrongfully, no, wrongfully perceived to be Muslim

4074
03:42:03,320 --> 03:42:07,040
Speaker 7: was the wording, as if it was like a bad

4075
03:42:07,120 --> 03:42:09,960
Speaker 7: thing to be perceived Muslim. So you do you ever

4076
03:42:10,080 --> 03:42:11,240
Speaker 7: that tweet at all?

4077
03:42:11,680 --> 03:42:12,480
Speaker 4: Yeah? I didn't know.

4078
03:42:12,560 --> 03:42:14,840
Speaker 9: I try not to look at President Biden's sweets, because

4079
03:42:14,840 --> 03:42:16,440
Speaker 9: it's really a source of joy in my life.

4080
03:42:16,600 --> 03:42:17,800
Speaker 4: But that's great.

4081
03:42:18,280 --> 03:42:20,960
Speaker 9: Look the dude sitting here while little children and pregnant

4082
03:42:21,040 --> 03:42:23,640
Speaker 9: ladies and old folks are sleeping out in the dirt

4083
03:42:23,680 --> 03:42:24,960
Speaker 9: in the board of a third nine in a row,

4084
03:42:25,040 --> 03:42:27,240
Speaker 9: like I give a fuck about what he thinks. He again, right,

4085
03:42:27,320 --> 03:42:29,960
Speaker 9: that guy doesn't get to legislate morality for me because

4086
03:42:30,000 --> 03:42:33,600
Speaker 9: he has none. And word, I simply don't give a

4087
03:42:33,640 --> 03:42:34,440
Speaker 9: fuck what he says.

4088
03:42:34,840 --> 03:42:38,920
Speaker 7: Word. I like that approach. I like that approach. But

4089
03:42:40,040 --> 03:42:43,199
Speaker 7: Muslims and Arabs did pay attention to that word wrongfully,

4090
03:42:43,280 --> 03:42:46,240
Speaker 7: and it just kind of reinforced the sentiment in the

4091
03:42:46,360 --> 03:42:49,120
Speaker 7: country when it comes to Arab and Muslim people or

4092
03:42:49,200 --> 03:42:51,920
Speaker 7: those perceived to be Arab and Muslim and The Council

4093
03:42:52,040 --> 03:42:56,000
Speaker 7: on American Islamic Relations said it received seven hundred and

4094
03:42:56,080 --> 03:42:59,760
Speaker 7: seventy four requests for help and reports of bias incidents

4095
03:42:59,760 --> 03:43:03,080
Speaker 7: from Muslims in the US between the sixteen days of

4096
03:43:03,240 --> 03:43:06,400
Speaker 7: October seventh to October twenty fourth, which is a one

4097
03:43:06,520 --> 03:43:10,400
Speaker 7: hundred and eighty two percent jump from any given sixteen

4098
03:43:10,480 --> 03:43:14,120
Speaker 7: days stretch last year. Because on average of twenty twenty two,

4099
03:43:14,520 --> 03:43:18,320
Speaker 7: that number was two hundred and seventy four complaints, and

4100
03:43:19,000 --> 03:43:22,760
Speaker 7: Corey Saylor, the research and advocacy director, said, we're working

4101
03:43:22,879 --> 03:43:26,080
Speaker 7: seven days a week around the clock fielding incoming complaints.

4102
03:43:26,440 --> 03:43:28,959
Speaker 7: I have only ever seen that twice in my career,

4103
03:43:29,440 --> 03:43:32,200
Speaker 7: right after nine to eleven and in December twenty fifteen,

4104
03:43:32,680 --> 03:43:35,760
Speaker 7: after that announcement by Trump of his plan to ban

4105
03:43:35,920 --> 03:43:37,680
Speaker 7: Muslims from the country.

4106
03:43:38,400 --> 03:43:41,720
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, yeah, that was a good time in history.

4107
03:43:42,000 --> 03:43:44,600
Speaker 9: Yeah, that the attacks and sek people are like a

4108
03:43:44,720 --> 03:43:50,000
Speaker 9: classic post nine to eleven, absolute like islamophobic mania. Yeah, right,

4109
03:43:50,560 --> 03:43:54,960
Speaker 9: Like it's something that like I'm consistently afraid of now,

4110
03:43:55,120 --> 03:43:56,920
Speaker 9: right when I'm at the border, when there are Muslim

4111
03:43:56,959 --> 03:44:01,240
Speaker 9: people there every day, and there is people there every day,

4112
03:44:01,600 --> 03:44:04,440
Speaker 9: and there are also Jewish people there, right because literally

4113
03:44:04,520 --> 03:44:07,000
Speaker 9: someone yesterday we were trying to get some candles for

4114
03:44:07,040 --> 03:44:10,560
Speaker 9: a hannaka minora, Right, But it doesn't matter. People who

4115
03:44:10,600 --> 03:44:13,000
Speaker 9: are hateful have access to hurt those people. And that's

4116
03:44:13,000 --> 03:44:17,920
Speaker 9: something I've become extremely concerned with recently, like and with

4117
03:44:18,280 --> 03:44:22,440
Speaker 9: half of Congress or more whipping up this kind of hysteria, right,

4118
03:44:22,480 --> 03:44:26,520
Speaker 9: which obviously you know, like George W. Bush benefited very

4119
03:44:26,560 --> 03:44:29,880
Speaker 9: greatly from although if you look at the stuff George W.

4120
03:44:30,000 --> 03:44:32,000
Speaker 9: Bush says, and this is not like yas George W.

4121
03:44:32,200 --> 03:44:36,000
Speaker 9: Bush like he is outflanked large number of the Democrat

4122
03:44:36,080 --> 03:44:38,480
Speaker 9: Party and his to the left in his acceptance, like

4123
03:44:39,000 --> 03:44:43,000
Speaker 9: Islam is a fabric of America's speech, Like it's wild

4124
03:44:43,040 --> 03:44:46,320
Speaker 9: how far we've come in a bad direction. But San,

4125
03:44:46,520 --> 03:44:48,640
Speaker 9: do you know what else is leading our listeners in

4126
03:44:48,680 --> 03:44:49,320
Speaker 9: a bad direction?

4127
03:44:50,640 --> 03:44:52,920
Speaker 4: Please exactly more?

4128
03:44:53,760 --> 03:44:57,400
Speaker 9: Yeah, it's this advert for Ronald Reagan memorabilia. Hopefully we

4129
03:44:57,480 --> 03:45:00,640
Speaker 9: get a Kissinger one soon. In Challa, we will get

4130
03:45:00,640 --> 03:45:04,160
Speaker 9: a Henry kissingcher gold coin advert in this episode.

4131
03:45:05,760 --> 03:45:08,960
Speaker 7: We're back. I think it's worth mentioning some incidents that

4132
03:45:09,000 --> 03:45:12,600
Speaker 7: have happened when it comes to harassment and physical violence

4133
03:45:12,680 --> 03:45:16,640
Speaker 7: against Muslims and Arabs. On October fifteenth, he probably heard

4134
03:45:16,720 --> 03:45:18,440
Speaker 7: that a six year old was stabbed to death with

4135
03:45:18,600 --> 03:45:22,360
Speaker 7: Dia l Fueimi. He was stabbed twenty six times and

4136
03:45:22,480 --> 03:45:24,880
Speaker 7: his mother was also attacked and was in critical condition.

4137
03:45:25,400 --> 03:45:29,560
Speaker 7: He was killed by his landlord who was spouting anti

4138
03:45:29,680 --> 03:45:33,200
Speaker 7: Muslim rhetoric. There's also a man in Illinois who was

4139
03:45:33,280 --> 03:45:35,760
Speaker 7: charged with a hate crime after he demanded two Muslim

4140
03:45:35,800 --> 03:45:38,240
Speaker 7: men to get out of the country and threaten to

4141
03:45:38,320 --> 03:45:41,560
Speaker 7: shoot them. And as we said, actual Muslims aren't the

4142
03:45:41,640 --> 03:45:45,000
Speaker 7: only ones at risk from Islamophobia, anyone perceived to be Muslim,

4143
03:45:45,040 --> 03:45:47,640
Speaker 7: including Arabs who belong to other faith groups and seeks.

4144
03:45:47,680 --> 03:45:51,720
Speaker 7: For example, our target. On October fifteenth, a nineteen year

4145
03:45:51,720 --> 03:45:54,520
Speaker 7: old sixteen was attacked on a New York City bus

4146
03:45:54,840 --> 03:45:57,840
Speaker 7: by an assailant who tried to remove his turban. And

4147
03:45:57,879 --> 03:46:00,360
Speaker 7: I think we should all remember that for palace Onions

4148
03:46:00,400 --> 03:46:03,960
Speaker 7: and more generally Arabs and brown people, this isn't a

4149
03:46:04,040 --> 03:46:06,800
Speaker 7: new thing. We've always been demonized and using the humanizing

4150
03:46:06,879 --> 03:46:11,120
Speaker 7: language has deadly consequences, often not only for Palestinians here,

4151
03:46:11,240 --> 03:46:13,680
Speaker 7: but those in Gaza and any person of color around

4152
03:46:13,680 --> 03:46:16,440
Speaker 7: the world. I want to also point out that he

4153
03:46:16,520 --> 03:46:20,120
Speaker 7: Jabbi women are easily identifiable as Muslim and they're particularly

4154
03:46:20,280 --> 03:46:23,800
Speaker 7: easy targets for people that are terrorist and filled with hate.

4155
03:46:24,480 --> 03:46:27,760
Speaker 7: A Muslim pediatrician, a Hijabi woman was killed after being

4156
03:46:27,840 --> 03:46:32,560
Speaker 7: stabbed multiple times while sitting outside her apartment complex last month.

4157
03:46:33,240 --> 03:46:36,000
Speaker 9: Yeah, and to tell the community that's just been bereaved

4158
03:46:36,080 --> 03:46:40,440
Speaker 9: to not you know, like be afraid, it's like again,

4159
03:46:41,120 --> 03:46:42,320
Speaker 9: it's a great time to say nothing.

4160
03:46:42,360 --> 03:46:43,240
Speaker 4: If that's your opinion.

4161
03:46:43,920 --> 03:46:47,039
Speaker 7: Yeah, I think it's we're not really considering how afraid

4162
03:46:47,120 --> 03:46:48,480
Speaker 7: the community is and they're.

4163
03:46:49,720 --> 03:46:53,160
Speaker 9: I don't want to minimize, like Jewish people feel afraid

4164
03:46:53,200 --> 03:46:57,480
Speaker 9: to Like there are realist in se anti Semitism, Like

4165
03:46:57,959 --> 03:47:00,760
Speaker 9: there are definitely right wing shit bags anti Semitic who

4166
03:47:00,760 --> 03:47:04,440
Speaker 9: are trying to hijack the Palestinia Liberation movement for their

4167
03:47:04,480 --> 03:47:06,960
Speaker 9: own ends, and they suck and they are terrible, and

4168
03:47:07,040 --> 03:47:09,840
Speaker 9: we should all denounce that. The same force to do

4169
03:47:09,959 --> 03:47:13,640
Speaker 9: with almophobia, Like that's not a controversial statement, I think

4170
03:47:13,680 --> 03:47:15,199
Speaker 9: for anyone who's not a complete herd.

4171
03:47:15,720 --> 03:47:20,360
Speaker 7: Yeah, both communities are rightfully fearful, and that fear is

4172
03:47:20,440 --> 03:47:23,560
Speaker 7: valid for both communities. The last thing I want to

4173
03:47:23,600 --> 03:47:27,800
Speaker 7: say about this rise in Salmophobia is that ex Obama

4174
03:47:27,840 --> 03:47:33,080
Speaker 7: advisor Stuart Seldowitz who was harassing and saying the most

4175
03:47:33,280 --> 03:47:36,600
Speaker 7: heinous things to this uh oh yeah, calal cart Vendor

4176
03:47:36,760 --> 03:47:40,320
Speaker 7: in New York. He was at one point the US

4177
03:47:40,360 --> 03:47:44,600
Speaker 7: State Department's director of the Office of Israel and Palestinian Affairs,

4178
03:47:44,720 --> 03:47:46,320
Speaker 7: which I think should tell you all you need to

4179
03:47:46,400 --> 03:47:49,640
Speaker 7: know about how our country feels about Palestine. Because he

4180
03:47:49,760 --> 03:47:53,120
Speaker 7: was saying truly abhorrent things like not enough children have

4181
03:47:53,280 --> 03:47:53,879
Speaker 7: died yet.

4182
03:47:54,280 --> 03:47:57,760
Speaker 9: You know, to be fair, that guy represents the shit bag. No,

4183
03:47:57,879 --> 03:48:00,320
Speaker 9: I'm not again, this is not a like pro state

4184
03:48:00,400 --> 03:48:03,280
Speaker 9: Department statement like that. There are definitely people within the

4185
03:48:03,360 --> 03:48:06,920
Speaker 9: State Department who are upset, Like people have left the

4186
03:48:07,000 --> 03:48:09,879
Speaker 9: State Department because of the way that and obviously those

4187
03:48:09,920 --> 03:48:12,119
Speaker 9: people have felt that their voices are being marginalized because

4188
03:48:12,120 --> 03:48:14,200
Speaker 9: they've chosen to leave, right that they haven't been listened to.

4189
03:48:14,400 --> 03:48:16,480
Speaker 7: But I guess I wanted to bring that up because

4190
03:48:17,000 --> 03:48:20,440
Speaker 7: someone with that much hate was in charge of some

4191
03:48:20,600 --> 03:48:24,040
Speaker 7: decisions that affected Palestine, and he has so much and

4192
03:48:24,200 --> 03:48:26,320
Speaker 7: when you watch these videos that are taken on multiple days,

4193
03:48:26,360 --> 03:48:29,560
Speaker 7: which indicates that he was stalking this person, you see

4194
03:48:29,600 --> 03:48:33,320
Speaker 7: this man smiling and like almost hannibal lectory, and he's

4195
03:48:33,480 --> 03:48:36,560
Speaker 7: filled with so much hate it is like spewing out

4196
03:48:36,600 --> 03:48:36,879
Speaker 7: of him.

4197
03:48:37,200 --> 03:48:38,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's genuinely disturbing.

4198
03:48:38,879 --> 03:48:39,760
Speaker 7: Yeah, it's disturbing.

4199
03:48:40,320 --> 03:48:42,880
Speaker 9: Yeah, it's disturbing. Like I kept saying that for weeks

4200
03:48:42,879 --> 03:48:43,960
Speaker 9: to no one punched him in the face.

4201
03:48:44,040 --> 03:48:44,560
Speaker 3: But it's.

4202
03:48:45,920 --> 03:48:49,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, a better world, yeah, one day.

4203
03:48:49,760 --> 03:48:53,000
Speaker 7: But essentially I wanted to just go over that really quickly.

4204
03:48:53,040 --> 03:48:56,600
Speaker 7: About how the rise in Slamophobia and anti Palestinian, anti

4205
03:48:56,640 --> 03:48:59,760
Speaker 7: Arab sentiment makes it even more important to continue to

4206
03:48:59,800 --> 03:49:02,560
Speaker 7: say end up for Palestine and their people and their

4207
03:49:02,600 --> 03:49:05,800
Speaker 7: fight for liberation, and wearing the kaffia itself has been

4208
03:49:05,840 --> 03:49:09,360
Speaker 7: a symbol of this struggle for Palestine liberation and so

4209
03:49:09,480 --> 03:49:12,720
Speaker 7: we wanted to tell you guys about its history. James

4210
03:49:12,760 --> 03:49:14,040
Speaker 7: is wearing one right now. Good job.

4211
03:49:14,480 --> 03:49:15,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, because he's cold.

4212
03:49:18,240 --> 03:49:19,880
Speaker 7: Visual prop for a podcast.

4213
03:49:20,720 --> 03:49:22,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, I love to do it.

4214
03:49:22,120 --> 03:49:24,760
Speaker 9: It's a it's a little secret between us.

4215
03:49:24,960 --> 03:49:28,800
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, well not anymore. Sorry, no name, no thanks, Serene.

4216
03:49:30,000 --> 03:49:33,240
Speaker 7: But what is the kaffia? Just go over the basics.

4217
03:49:33,360 --> 03:49:37,480
Speaker 7: It's a cotton square shaped headdress with a distinctive checkered

4218
03:49:37,560 --> 03:49:40,000
Speaker 7: pattern that is worn in many parts of the Arab world.

4219
03:49:40,360 --> 03:49:42,480
Speaker 7: The black and white one is known to be worn

4220
03:49:42,520 --> 03:49:45,720
Speaker 7: in Palestine. And I didn't know this to be completely honest,

4221
03:49:45,760 --> 03:49:49,000
Speaker 7: but apparently it dates back to Sumerians and Babylonians and

4222
03:49:49,040 --> 03:49:53,040
Speaker 7: Mesopotamia and thirty one hundred BC. It's been called other

4223
03:49:53,360 --> 03:49:55,360
Speaker 7: words as well. I think the most common one other

4224
03:49:55,480 --> 03:49:58,840
Speaker 7: than kaffia is the hata. It's also said that the

4225
03:49:59,000 --> 03:50:01,920
Speaker 7: prophet Muhammad war One as well, so it has a

4226
03:50:01,960 --> 03:50:04,440
Speaker 7: long history and it was used as the symbol of

4227
03:50:04,560 --> 03:50:08,160
Speaker 7: high rank and honor among priests. When you move forward

4228
03:50:08,200 --> 03:50:11,000
Speaker 7: in history, the kaffea was adopted by peasants who wore

4229
03:50:11,080 --> 03:50:13,240
Speaker 7: it while they were working on the land to protect

4230
03:50:13,280 --> 03:50:15,480
Speaker 7: them from the sun and the sand, that seems obvious.

4231
03:50:15,920 --> 03:50:18,600
Speaker 7: And it was in the winter to protect them from

4232
03:50:18,640 --> 03:50:21,280
Speaker 7: the cold. A very multifunctional piece of clothing.

4233
03:50:21,800 --> 03:50:25,520
Speaker 9: Yeah, you see, like everyone in this region has some

4234
03:50:25,760 --> 03:50:28,800
Speaker 9: kind of thing, Like Kuldish people have their own different versions, right,

4235
03:50:29,520 --> 03:50:32,080
Speaker 9: everyone behind me, the Kurdish refuge gave to me the

4236
03:50:32,120 --> 03:50:35,080
Speaker 9: other day, which is very kind. But like even when

4237
03:50:35,120 --> 03:50:38,400
Speaker 9: you saw the United States troops fighting in the Middle East, right,

4238
03:50:38,440 --> 03:50:41,200
Speaker 9: they adopted like their like tactical version that was like

4239
03:50:41,800 --> 03:50:44,720
Speaker 9: a green bass. But like it's a very practical garment

4240
03:50:44,800 --> 03:50:46,440
Speaker 9: that people in this part of the world have worn

4241
03:50:46,520 --> 03:50:50,080
Speaker 9: full Like even before Islamic people wore these things so

4242
03:50:50,320 --> 03:50:52,160
Speaker 9: like cover their faces.

4243
03:50:51,960 --> 03:50:55,080
Speaker 4: And because it made sense practically, like it's just yeah,

4244
03:50:55,280 --> 03:50:59,320
Speaker 4: for the climate, very handy. Yeah yeah, And this.

4245
03:50:59,480 --> 03:51:01,600
Speaker 7: Is not very commonly known, but the patterns on the

4246
03:51:01,680 --> 03:51:05,080
Speaker 7: kaffia is known to symbolize different aspects of Palestinian life.

4247
03:51:05,440 --> 03:51:07,960
Speaker 7: So there are some bold black stripes on the edges

4248
03:51:08,040 --> 03:51:10,560
Speaker 7: that are meant to symbolize the historical trade routes that

4249
03:51:10,640 --> 03:51:14,080
Speaker 7: used to go through Palestine. There's a fishnet like design

4250
03:51:14,200 --> 03:51:17,840
Speaker 7: that represents Palestinian fishermen and the Palestine connection to the

4251
03:51:17,920 --> 03:51:21,040
Speaker 7: Mediterranean Sea. And then there are some curvy lines that

4252
03:51:21,160 --> 03:51:24,520
Speaker 7: resemble olive trees, which are a major point of pride

4253
03:51:24,560 --> 03:51:30,440
Speaker 7: for Palestinians, with the pattern representing perseverance, strength and resilience.

4254
03:51:30,760 --> 03:51:35,120
Speaker 7: So it's an extremely symbolic, important symbol for Palestine. It

4255
03:51:35,160 --> 03:51:36,760
Speaker 7: hasn't always been, and that's what we're going to be

4256
03:51:36,800 --> 03:51:39,480
Speaker 7: going through because at this point, Palestinians view it as

4257
03:51:39,520 --> 03:51:43,120
Speaker 7: a symbol of their cultural and national identity, and unfortunately

4258
03:51:43,200 --> 03:51:45,520
Speaker 7: others view it as a threat because, as I mentioned,

4259
03:51:45,600 --> 03:51:48,760
Speaker 7: those students that got shot in Vermont, where two of

4260
03:51:48,800 --> 03:51:50,400
Speaker 7: them are wearing a caffea, it's said that they were

4261
03:51:50,400 --> 03:51:52,760
Speaker 7: speaking in Arabic and one of these students is now

4262
03:51:52,880 --> 03:51:56,760
Speaker 7: paralyzed from the chest down. So it really is important

4263
03:51:56,960 --> 03:52:00,280
Speaker 7: to deconstruct what the scarf is and why on earth

4264
03:52:00,360 --> 03:52:02,760
Speaker 7: it would spark that kind of fear and anybody, because

4265
03:52:02,920 --> 03:52:08,480
Speaker 7: it's not about fear or hate, it's about Palestinian pride

4266
03:52:08,880 --> 03:52:12,760
Speaker 7: and culture and history. As long as Palestinians are oppressed,

4267
03:52:12,840 --> 03:52:15,960
Speaker 7: then even something as simple as a traditional scarf can

4268
03:52:16,040 --> 03:52:19,800
Speaker 7: turn into something bigger than just cultural pride, because now

4269
03:52:19,880 --> 03:52:23,600
Speaker 7: it's a political statement, and I want everyone to realize

4270
03:52:23,640 --> 03:52:26,240
Speaker 7: that it's not something to be feared or something to

4271
03:52:26,280 --> 03:52:28,800
Speaker 7: get nervous around if you see it out in the open.

4272
03:52:29,400 --> 03:52:31,160
Speaker 7: So let's go back in history. Are you ready to

4273
03:52:31,200 --> 03:52:31,880
Speaker 7: go back in history?

4274
03:52:31,960 --> 03:52:32,240
Speaker 3: James?

4275
03:52:33,040 --> 03:52:35,440
Speaker 9: I am, yeah, that's an We can we do a

4276
03:52:35,520 --> 03:52:38,200
Speaker 9: sound machine, Daniel, like, like a try and Travel sound.

4277
03:52:40,520 --> 03:52:42,640
Speaker 7: Do you guys ever play Mario's Time Machine? I was

4278
03:52:42,640 --> 03:52:44,120
Speaker 7: obsessed with that game PC.

4279
03:52:44,400 --> 03:52:44,960
Speaker 4: It did help.

4280
03:52:45,600 --> 03:52:49,320
Speaker 7: Maybe you don't find that sound. So the kaffea evolved

4281
03:52:49,360 --> 03:52:51,880
Speaker 7: out of the common headdress, as we're saying that men

4282
03:52:52,000 --> 03:52:55,440
Speaker 7: in the Middle East war to protect themselves from the elements.

4283
03:52:56,240 --> 03:53:00,720
Speaker 7: It was specifically worn by nomadic and Bedouin community, from

4284
03:53:00,840 --> 03:53:04,680
Speaker 7: villagers to city people and townspeople. And while the kaffea

4285
03:53:04,800 --> 03:53:08,320
Speaker 7: was often associated with peasants, the bus or the red

4286
03:53:08,440 --> 03:53:10,400
Speaker 7: felt hat that is like a cylinder shape that you

4287
03:53:10,480 --> 03:53:13,520
Speaker 7: might see people wear that was often worn by more urban,

4288
03:53:13,760 --> 03:53:16,880
Speaker 7: middle and upper class Palestinians. I wanted to point out

4289
03:53:16,920 --> 03:53:18,800
Speaker 7: here that the word like peasants is a little bit

4290
03:53:18,840 --> 03:53:22,160
Speaker 7: extreme because the word in Arabic is pH lahin and

4291
03:53:22,240 --> 03:53:25,880
Speaker 7: fe laheen. I guess is more villager type, but it's

4292
03:53:25,920 --> 03:53:28,880
Speaker 7: not really used in a very condescending way because a

4293
03:53:28,960 --> 03:53:31,800
Speaker 7: lot of things are considered for lahi, Like the one

4294
03:53:31,800 --> 03:53:34,320
Speaker 7: of my favorite dishes in the Middle East is judada,

4295
03:53:34,320 --> 03:53:36,720
Speaker 7: which is just lentils and rice, and that's considered a

4296
03:53:36,800 --> 03:53:39,440
Speaker 7: falahei dish. So I just wanted to put that out

4297
03:53:39,440 --> 03:53:42,880
Speaker 7: there that it's not like a dis per se in

4298
03:53:43,000 --> 03:53:46,280
Speaker 7: Arabic to say, to call them peasants, it is like

4299
03:53:46,360 --> 03:53:49,400
Speaker 7: an indication that they are of lower class because jud

4300
03:53:49,480 --> 03:53:51,840
Speaker 7: dada is cheap to make, for example. But it's not

4301
03:53:51,960 --> 03:53:55,040
Speaker 7: exactly this like surf word. Does that make sense?

4302
03:53:55,240 --> 03:54:01,160
Speaker 9: Yeah, yeah, like humble, not like yeah yeah, like I said, yes, exactly.

4303
03:54:02,240 --> 03:54:02,280
Speaker 1: So.

4304
03:54:02,560 --> 03:54:05,800
Speaker 7: In nineteen thirty six, though, things started to change in

4305
03:54:05,880 --> 03:54:09,320
Speaker 7: the Arab Revolt when there was an uprising against British

4306
03:54:09,400 --> 03:54:12,880
Speaker 7: rule and occupation of Palestine, and this included demands for

4307
03:54:12,920 --> 03:54:17,040
Speaker 7: independence and an end to Jewish immigration. The armed Palestinian

4308
03:54:17,120 --> 03:54:20,400
Speaker 7: rebel groups were largely made up of poorer men, so

4309
03:54:20,560 --> 03:54:22,440
Speaker 7: in this way, whether it was intentional or not. In

4310
03:54:22,480 --> 03:54:25,960
Speaker 7: the beginning, the kaffia basically was their uniform because these

4311
03:54:26,000 --> 03:54:28,240
Speaker 7: rebel groups were made up of poorer men and that

4312
03:54:28,400 --> 03:54:31,400
Speaker 7: was what they wore, and that made it easier for

4313
03:54:31,440 --> 03:54:34,040
Speaker 7: the British to target them when they were in urban areas.

4314
03:54:34,360 --> 03:54:38,760
Speaker 7: So as the fighting escalated, rebel leaders urged Palestinian men,

4315
03:54:38,920 --> 03:54:42,240
Speaker 7: all Palestinian men to ditch the tarbush and don the

4316
03:54:42,320 --> 03:54:45,920
Speaker 7: kaffia instead, and so when Palestinians did this, it allowed

4317
03:54:46,000 --> 03:54:49,880
Speaker 7: fighters to blend in and evade British troops. At that time,

4318
03:54:50,120 --> 03:54:52,440
Speaker 7: the majority of the armed resistance was taking place in

4319
03:54:52,480 --> 03:54:55,920
Speaker 7: the villages, and the fighters used kafia to hide their features,

4320
03:54:56,440 --> 03:54:59,680
Speaker 7: helping it to become associated with the revolution. So it

4321
03:54:59,760 --> 03:55:02,560
Speaker 7: was only a strategic success to do this on the

4322
03:55:02,640 --> 03:55:04,800
Speaker 7: rebels part, but it was a breakthrough for the lower

4323
03:55:04,840 --> 03:55:09,720
Speaker 7: class as well, who basically forced their clothing onto the elites,

4324
03:55:10,040 --> 03:55:13,120
Speaker 7: and this catapulted the kafa as something that crossed classes

4325
03:55:13,600 --> 03:55:16,120
Speaker 7: and became a prominent national symbol.

4326
03:55:16,960 --> 03:55:20,760
Speaker 9: This is like perfectly timed as well to coincide with

4327
03:55:20,880 --> 03:55:23,880
Speaker 9: like the rise of nations to nationalism in the early

4328
03:55:24,000 --> 03:55:27,160
Speaker 9: nineteenth and like a late nineteenth thirty twentieth century, right

4329
03:55:27,240 --> 03:55:31,120
Speaker 9: like the Yeah, when religion and religion stops having this

4330
03:55:31,240 --> 03:55:33,800
Speaker 9: universal claim on truth and we see the client and

4331
03:55:33,840 --> 03:55:37,520
Speaker 9: monarchy at the same time, the rise in more like

4332
03:55:37,680 --> 03:55:40,800
Speaker 9: at first like middle class democracies, right got them Sometimes

4333
03:55:40,840 --> 03:55:43,960
Speaker 9: bosche Our revolutions like the nation came to be the

4334
03:55:44,040 --> 03:55:46,800
Speaker 9: way one could argue that the working class were kind

4335
03:55:46,840 --> 03:55:50,240
Speaker 9: of being tricked into supporting this bolshour project or however

4336
03:55:50,240 --> 03:55:53,520
Speaker 9: you want to see it. But yeah, nations arose well

4337
03:55:53,520 --> 03:55:55,640
Speaker 9: around the world this time, and they all took on symbols,

4338
03:55:55,640 --> 03:55:59,360
Speaker 9: so like this was perfectly timed to sort of slide

4339
03:55:59,440 --> 03:56:00,960
Speaker 9: into that pos totally.

4340
03:56:01,120 --> 03:56:04,800
Speaker 7: That's a really good point. So as the revolt came

4341
03:56:04,960 --> 03:56:09,120
Speaker 7: to an end, some elites, Palestinian elites, discarded the kaffia

4342
03:56:09,200 --> 03:56:11,680
Speaker 7: and they turned back to the tabus. But at that

4343
03:56:11,800 --> 03:56:13,720
Speaker 7: point it was already too late because the cafe had

4344
03:56:13,720 --> 03:56:17,160
Speaker 7: already been established as this emblem for Palestinian resistance, and

4345
03:56:18,320 --> 03:56:21,120
Speaker 7: this made Palestinine men also just start wearing it for

4346
03:56:21,760 --> 03:56:25,600
Speaker 7: an expression of their national identity. In the nineteen sixties,

4347
03:56:25,760 --> 03:56:29,680
Speaker 7: we saw it become even more unifying because women started

4348
03:56:29,680 --> 03:56:32,680
Speaker 7: to get included into the picture. Leila Khalid is a

4349
03:56:32,760 --> 03:56:36,280
Speaker 7: Palestine activist and a former militant who, fun fact, was

4350
03:56:36,320 --> 03:56:41,800
Speaker 7: the first woman to ever hijack a plane. Yeah feminism,

4351
03:56:42,640 --> 03:56:45,400
Speaker 7: after she took part in hijacking a plane flying from

4352
03:56:45,520 --> 03:56:48,320
Speaker 7: Rome to Tel Aviv in nineteen sixty nine. Just to

4353
03:56:48,720 --> 03:56:50,960
Speaker 7: a disclaimer that no one was injured in this hijacking,

4354
03:56:51,280 --> 03:56:53,400
Speaker 7: that wasn't the point of it. But a journal was

4355
03:56:53,520 --> 03:56:57,120
Speaker 7: captured a photo of Khalid holding her rifle while styling

4356
03:56:57,160 --> 03:57:00,360
Speaker 7: a kafia like a woman's head scarf, and this image

4357
03:57:00,400 --> 03:57:04,080
Speaker 7: became so popular it helped cement Leila Kylote's status as

4358
03:57:04,080 --> 03:57:08,200
Speaker 7: an icon in the Palestine resistance movement. I think Leilah

4359
03:57:08,200 --> 03:57:10,120
Speaker 7: Skala deserves an episode all on her own because she's

4360
03:57:10,120 --> 03:57:12,880
Speaker 7: an extremely fascinating woman and she's still alive, so maybe

4361
03:57:12,920 --> 03:57:15,800
Speaker 7: one day. But her choice to wear the kaffia was

4362
03:57:15,920 --> 03:57:18,520
Speaker 7: viewed as a feminist move on her part, and it

4363
03:57:18,640 --> 03:57:21,720
Speaker 7: ushered in this idea that Palestinian women were part of

4364
03:57:21,760 --> 03:57:24,680
Speaker 7: the Palestinian rebellion and a part of activism, part of

4365
03:57:24,720 --> 03:57:28,280
Speaker 7: the resistance, and because they had largely been excluded in

4366
03:57:28,400 --> 03:57:31,560
Speaker 7: some way or regulated to other roles in the resistance,

4367
03:57:31,800 --> 03:57:34,640
Speaker 7: and so by making the statement and putting the kaffea

4368
03:57:34,720 --> 03:57:38,440
Speaker 7: over her head. She was also acknowledging cultural norms of

4369
03:57:38,480 --> 03:57:42,960
Speaker 7: Palestinians and using a men's scarf to do it. But

4370
03:57:43,440 --> 03:57:46,040
Speaker 7: at the time I think it was really revolutionary. And

4371
03:57:47,320 --> 03:57:50,080
Speaker 7: first when you see the kaffia break classes, now you

4372
03:57:50,160 --> 03:57:52,520
Speaker 7: see it break genders. And now it's becoming even more

4373
03:57:52,680 --> 03:57:55,640
Speaker 7: acceptable for more people to wear it. And so she

4374
03:57:55,760 --> 03:57:58,480
Speaker 7: continued to wear the caffea, often around her neck, and

4375
03:57:58,600 --> 03:58:01,560
Speaker 7: it inspired many Palatine way to do the same. But

4376
03:58:02,160 --> 03:58:04,720
Speaker 7: at the same time that hijacking she took part in

4377
03:58:04,960 --> 03:58:08,320
Speaker 7: drew international attention and many people in the West started

4378
03:58:08,320 --> 03:58:12,800
Speaker 7: associating Palestine resistance with terrorism, and unfortunately this meant the

4379
03:58:12,880 --> 03:58:16,360
Speaker 7: caffee would also come to mean something else in the

4380
03:58:16,400 --> 03:58:20,880
Speaker 7: Western world. The Alstar Arafat almost did not go anywhere

4381
03:58:21,000 --> 03:58:23,880
Speaker 7: without a caffee. He was the chairman of the PLO

4382
03:58:24,080 --> 03:58:26,680
Speaker 7: from nineteen sixty nine to two thousand and four, and

4383
03:58:26,800 --> 03:58:29,680
Speaker 7: he helped popularize the image of wearing a caffea around

4384
03:58:29,720 --> 03:58:32,640
Speaker 7: the world by again almost always wearing one in public,

4385
03:58:33,200 --> 03:58:37,040
Speaker 7: and many non Palestine activists at this time, especially those

4386
03:58:37,080 --> 03:58:40,360
Speaker 7: who participated in anti colonial, anti war, and other social

4387
03:58:40,560 --> 03:58:43,440
Speaker 7: justice protests, they began to recognize the scarf as a

4388
03:58:43,520 --> 03:58:46,720
Speaker 7: symbol of resistance and wear it to express the solidarity

4389
03:58:46,800 --> 03:58:51,280
Speaker 7: with Palestinians. But at this point Israel had labeled Arafat

4390
03:58:51,320 --> 03:58:54,400
Speaker 7: to terrorist and the United States designated the PLO as

4391
03:58:54,440 --> 03:58:58,640
Speaker 7: a terrorist organization. And so again. While some people identified

4392
03:58:59,000 --> 03:59:02,240
Speaker 7: this scarf with the Palestinian struggle, others viewed it as

4393
03:59:02,280 --> 03:59:07,600
Speaker 7: controversial and even a violent symbol. Many other global leaders

4394
03:59:07,640 --> 03:59:10,520
Speaker 7: around the world started wearing the kaffea as well. Even

4395
03:59:10,560 --> 03:59:14,560
Speaker 7: Nelson Mandela at one point was photographed wearing one. I

4396
03:59:14,640 --> 03:59:18,960
Speaker 7: think something especially humorous in modern times is how the

4397
03:59:19,040 --> 03:59:23,760
Speaker 7: kaffia has entered the fashion world, and its meaning is

4398
03:59:23,840 --> 03:59:28,440
Speaker 7: kind of completely erased when this happens. Some clothing brands

4399
03:59:28,520 --> 03:59:31,840
Speaker 7: took the scarf's widespread appeal and co opted it, and

4400
03:59:31,920 --> 03:59:35,000
Speaker 7: it sanitized its meaning, and it erased its relationship with

4401
03:59:35,040 --> 03:59:37,600
Speaker 7: the Palestinian cause. I think it's important to bring up

4402
03:59:37,640 --> 03:59:43,600
Speaker 7: here that Palestinians and supporters of Palestine encourage everyone to

4403
03:59:43,680 --> 03:59:46,240
Speaker 7: wear the scarf. It's not appropriating it when you wear

4404
03:59:46,320 --> 03:59:49,520
Speaker 7: it in solidarity. It's appropriating it if you co opt

4405
03:59:49,600 --> 03:59:52,680
Speaker 7: it and make it into something. It's not like a

4406
03:59:52,800 --> 03:59:55,640
Speaker 7: skirt or I saw a version of one that had

4407
03:59:55,720 --> 03:59:58,240
Speaker 7: like intricate stars of David in there to be worn

4408
03:59:58,280 --> 04:00:02,120
Speaker 7: by Israelis. I think that's appropriation. But when it comes

4409
04:00:02,200 --> 04:00:05,680
Speaker 7: to solidarity and being in protests and showing that you

4410
04:00:05,800 --> 04:00:08,560
Speaker 7: care about the Palestinian cause, it's encouraged to wear it.

4411
04:00:08,720 --> 04:00:10,040
Speaker 7: And so I feel like a lot of people are

4412
04:00:10,080 --> 04:00:13,200
Speaker 7: afraid of cultural appropriation.

4413
04:00:13,000 --> 04:00:13,520
Speaker 4: But it's not.

4414
04:00:15,640 --> 04:00:17,320
Speaker 7: When it comes to the Kaffea, it's not about that.

4415
04:00:17,560 --> 04:00:20,640
Speaker 7: It's about solidarity more so than the act of wearing

4416
04:00:20,760 --> 04:00:22,360
Speaker 7: something that is from Palestine.

4417
04:00:23,640 --> 04:00:27,440
Speaker 9: Yeah, it's not the same as wearing a plane Sdian

4418
04:00:27,440 --> 04:00:32,280
Speaker 9: headdress for example, or known sink for child. Very abbrupritive.

4419
04:00:32,400 --> 04:00:35,480
Speaker 9: And you should listen to the people who'se things you're

4420
04:00:35,560 --> 04:00:37,040
Speaker 9: wearing before you wear them.

4421
04:00:37,600 --> 04:00:40,000
Speaker 4: That's a rule. Oh yeah, before you make them into

4422
04:00:40,080 --> 04:00:41,840
Speaker 4: your mini skirt line. Yeah.

4423
04:00:42,760 --> 04:00:46,280
Speaker 7: And when capitalism enters the picture, that's when we cross

4424
04:00:46,400 --> 04:00:50,200
Speaker 7: into appropriation territory usually and the symbolic meaning goes away.

4425
04:00:51,480 --> 04:00:55,040
Speaker 7: In twenty sixteen, for example, an Israeli fashion designer Dodo

4426
04:00:55,240 --> 04:00:59,000
Speaker 7: Baro use the kaffia to create a range of dresses

4427
04:00:59,200 --> 04:01:02,680
Speaker 7: and miniskirts and she receives a lot of backlash for this.

4428
04:01:03,600 --> 04:01:07,120
Speaker 7: I think Israel. Doing this is especially ironic only because

4429
04:01:07,240 --> 04:01:11,520
Speaker 7: what haven't they stolen is my question? Land the food

4430
04:01:11,760 --> 04:01:15,080
Speaker 7: and now the clothing. I think it's pretty yeah sad.

4431
04:01:15,480 --> 04:01:17,920
Speaker 9: Yeah, that's right up there with like the Washington football

4432
04:01:17,960 --> 04:01:21,320
Speaker 9: team having a racist sass name or like, yes, exactly,

4433
04:01:21,440 --> 04:01:27,960
Speaker 9: it's very appropriate and almost genocidal right to like suggest that,

4434
04:01:28,120 --> 04:01:29,880
Speaker 9: like these people have a long history here kind of

4435
04:01:30,000 --> 04:01:32,200
Speaker 9: like that's actually your history, and like take it and make.

4436
04:01:32,160 --> 04:01:38,720
Speaker 7: Exactly it's like really insiduous. It's it's like a cruel

4437
04:01:38,920 --> 04:01:41,400
Speaker 7: to co opt a struggle that people are just like

4438
04:01:41,520 --> 04:01:44,280
Speaker 7: trying to their people are having tried to survive for

4439
04:01:44,360 --> 04:01:48,280
Speaker 7: so long, and to make it into something silly, to

4440
04:01:48,360 --> 04:01:50,560
Speaker 7: make it into something that it's not, is really hurtful

4441
04:01:50,640 --> 04:01:51,880
Speaker 7: and really pathetic.

4442
04:01:52,000 --> 04:01:53,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's not respectful.

4443
04:01:53,120 --> 04:01:55,080
Speaker 9: It's not like it doesn't show a good faith effort

4444
04:01:55,160 --> 04:01:57,960
Speaker 9: to come to a solution in which both people are respected.

4445
04:01:57,600 --> 04:01:58,200
Speaker 4: Right exactly.

4446
04:01:59,080 --> 04:02:01,600
Speaker 7: The last example to make, as far as fashion quoe

4447
04:02:01,640 --> 04:02:04,320
Speaker 7: unquote goes, is that in two thousand and seven, Urban

4448
04:02:04,400 --> 04:02:08,480
Speaker 7: Outfitters sold a coffea that came in many different colors,

4449
04:02:08,800 --> 04:02:11,960
Speaker 7: but they simply promoted it as a anti war scarf,

4450
04:02:12,720 --> 04:02:17,080
Speaker 7: and unsurprisingly controversy ensued and they eventually pulled the item

4451
04:02:17,120 --> 04:02:20,760
Speaker 7: from its shelves. But I do remember this really brief

4452
04:02:20,840 --> 04:02:23,320
Speaker 7: moment in time where this happened, and it was so

4453
04:02:23,560 --> 04:02:27,280
Speaker 7: bizarre I just had to mention it. But let's take

4454
04:02:27,280 --> 04:02:28,240
Speaker 7: for a second break.

4455
04:02:29,360 --> 04:02:33,360
Speaker 9: And then we'll come back with a story about that scarff. Yeah,

4456
04:02:33,440 --> 04:02:35,640
Speaker 9: this is hopefully does not have for United Airlines famous

4457
04:02:35,720 --> 04:02:40,720
Speaker 9: kafia enjoys. All right, we're back, and we're back to

4458
04:02:40,800 --> 04:02:46,040
Speaker 9: discuss famous supporter of the palatini caused Rachel Ray Because

4459
04:02:47,160 --> 04:02:49,240
Speaker 9: for those of you who are blessed to be thus

4460
04:02:49,280 --> 04:02:53,280
Speaker 9: far unaware of this. In two thousand and eight, Rachel

4461
04:02:53,400 --> 04:02:56,640
Speaker 9: Ray wore a kaffia, or as she actually wore the

4462
04:02:56,760 --> 04:02:59,920
Speaker 9: Urban Outfitters model, which is like a silk scarf.

4463
04:03:00,040 --> 04:03:00,800
Speaker 4: It's a little different.

4464
04:03:01,560 --> 04:03:05,000
Speaker 9: Kafirs are normally like a thick kind of cotton. She

4465
04:03:05,160 --> 04:03:08,560
Speaker 9: wore it in a Dunkin Donuts dunkin Donuts is no

4466
04:03:08,680 --> 04:03:14,640
Speaker 9: g dunkin Donuts advert and Michelle Malkin, who's one in

4467
04:03:14,640 --> 04:03:18,480
Speaker 9: along line of crazy right wing people, accused her of

4468
04:03:19,000 --> 04:03:22,480
Speaker 9: wearing quote worrying the symbol of murderous palestin jin Jahad,

4469
04:03:23,200 --> 04:03:25,480
Speaker 9: which is which is a real insight into where we

4470
04:03:25,560 --> 04:03:28,480
Speaker 9: were there at the end of the of the Bush

4471
04:03:28,560 --> 04:03:33,280
Speaker 9: presidency as a nation. Absolutely batch it insane. That was

4472
04:03:33,320 --> 04:03:34,280
Speaker 9: when I moved to America.

4473
04:03:34,360 --> 04:03:34,720
Speaker 4: Good times.

4474
04:03:34,720 --> 04:03:36,800
Speaker 9: Actually, that was when I moved to America wearing a

4475
04:03:36,920 --> 04:03:40,280
Speaker 9: kafir on the plane because it was idea it's my

4476
04:03:40,360 --> 04:03:42,120
Speaker 9: thing that I worried a gift from someone who are

4477
04:03:42,800 --> 04:03:46,240
Speaker 9: very close with and we used to weard more the

4478
04:03:46,320 --> 04:03:48,920
Speaker 9: time at protests. That was a time when its Lamophobia

4479
04:03:49,080 --> 04:03:52,160
Speaker 9: was like very present in the UK and so like

4480
04:03:52,280 --> 04:03:54,280
Speaker 9: it was kind of a way a way I guess

4481
04:03:54,360 --> 04:03:58,120
Speaker 9: to show sort of arity or invite confrontation, depending on

4482
04:03:58,200 --> 04:03:59,560
Speaker 9: if it was me or not. I think I was

4483
04:03:59,600 --> 04:04:03,160
Speaker 9: probably Column B as well as Column MAY. But it

4484
04:04:03,320 --> 04:04:04,840
Speaker 9: was just the thing that I wore, you know. And

4485
04:04:04,960 --> 04:04:07,840
Speaker 9: it was at that point the movement for a free

4486
04:04:07,880 --> 04:04:09,840
Speaker 9: Palestine with I think, much more established in the UK

4487
04:04:09,960 --> 04:04:13,400
Speaker 9: than it was in the US and among obviously like

4488
04:04:13,920 --> 04:04:17,000
Speaker 9: white folks such to himself. I immediately got sent to

4489
04:04:17,480 --> 04:04:20,240
Speaker 9: like a secondary inspection when I arrived in the United States.

4490
04:04:21,160 --> 04:04:22,920
Speaker 9: I got off the plane, I had my little badge

4491
04:04:22,920 --> 04:04:24,960
Speaker 9: with the Palestinian flag, I have my little cafea and

4492
04:04:25,040 --> 04:04:27,200
Speaker 9: the guy was just like go in the room, and

4493
04:04:27,320 --> 04:04:29,400
Speaker 9: then yeah, we had a great talk about the stuff

4494
04:04:29,400 --> 04:04:33,040
Speaker 9: I had from Cuba, which at the time was obviously

4495
04:04:33,160 --> 04:04:35,160
Speaker 9: not a place that Americans were able to go. I

4496
04:04:35,200 --> 04:04:37,200
Speaker 9: think I still can't. So yeah, it was great, It's good.

4497
04:04:37,240 --> 04:04:39,040
Speaker 9: It was a wonderful start. They asked me what I

4498
04:04:39,120 --> 04:04:40,520
Speaker 9: was doing for my PhD. I told them I was

4499
04:04:40,560 --> 04:04:43,240
Speaker 9: studying anarchism. That went down like a sack of shit,

4500
04:04:43,680 --> 04:04:48,960
Speaker 9: and you know, from there it began along and enjoyable

4501
04:04:49,040 --> 04:04:52,000
Speaker 9: relationship with our friends who keep us safe at our borders.

4502
04:04:52,720 --> 04:04:56,400
Speaker 7: Wow, still has an orgin story. I suppose.

4503
04:04:58,080 --> 04:05:04,800
Speaker 4: Before that I was just a lib not true. Any

4504
04:05:05,640 --> 04:05:06,840
Speaker 4: interesting Saturday nights.

4505
04:05:07,280 --> 04:05:09,040
Speaker 7: No, thank you for sharing that. I didn't know about

4506
04:05:09,040 --> 04:05:11,320
Speaker 7: the Racheal raything until you told me about it, because

4507
04:05:11,800 --> 04:05:15,800
Speaker 7: I mean, way to go dunkin Donuts, I guess it's like.

4508
04:05:15,920 --> 04:05:18,920
Speaker 9: Yeah, Unfortunately they pulled the advert like still it's a

4509
04:05:18,960 --> 04:05:22,640
Speaker 9: shame in theory. Yeah still yeah, yeah, Dunky donut stands

4510
04:05:22,640 --> 04:05:25,640
Speaker 9: with Palestine. It's okay, it's okay to put a donut

4511
04:05:25,680 --> 04:05:29,080
Speaker 9: on your kaffir because donuts are a friend of the

4512
04:05:29,120 --> 04:05:29,960
Speaker 9: Palestinian people.

4513
04:05:30,640 --> 04:05:32,040
Speaker 7: That's the takeaway. Correct.

4514
04:05:33,000 --> 04:05:35,320
Speaker 9: Throughout we had donuts the I was, I was covering

4515
04:05:35,320 --> 04:05:37,960
Speaker 9: a protest the other day outside of your own manifacturing facility.

4516
04:05:38,040 --> 04:05:41,400
Speaker 9: Someone bought donuts. Doughnuts can continue to stand alongside the

4517
04:05:41,440 --> 04:05:42,280
Speaker 9: Palestinian people.

4518
04:05:42,440 --> 04:05:47,800
Speaker 7: Well powerful. Yeah, I wanted to mention really quick, how

4519
04:05:48,360 --> 04:05:51,600
Speaker 7: I mean, in addition to capitalism, just like being a disease,

4520
04:05:52,280 --> 04:05:54,840
Speaker 7: A lot of kaffeas nowadays are being sold, like in

4521
04:05:55,080 --> 04:05:58,200
Speaker 7: mass because the Palestinian cause is getting more popular. But

4522
04:05:58,320 --> 04:06:01,480
Speaker 7: there's only one fact three left in Palestine that actually

4523
04:06:01,560 --> 04:06:05,560
Speaker 7: makes them more than five decades ago, there were about

4524
04:06:05,680 --> 04:06:09,680
Speaker 7: thirty across Palestine, and now there is one in Hebron, Hitterbowie.

4525
04:06:10,360 --> 04:06:14,600
Speaker 7: It's the only caffe manufacturer left and it's been seeing

4526
04:06:14,680 --> 04:06:17,800
Speaker 7: a huge uptick that is, in their words, unparalleled ever

4527
04:06:17,880 --> 04:06:21,720
Speaker 7: before in their sales. Apparently they sold eighteen thousand of

4528
04:06:21,760 --> 04:06:24,600
Speaker 7: them in October and now they're in high demand all

4529
04:06:24,640 --> 04:06:27,840
Speaker 7: the like. It's sold out everywhere. And this is the

4530
04:06:27,920 --> 04:06:32,000
Speaker 7: authentic coffe. So one I have, Yeah, you have one

4531
04:06:32,000 --> 04:06:33,200
Speaker 7: from Putter Wawi, which is great.

4532
04:06:33,240 --> 04:06:33,960
Speaker 4: It's very nice.

4533
04:06:34,040 --> 04:06:37,080
Speaker 9: Actually, yeah, don't be buying like an Abby Express one

4534
04:06:37,240 --> 04:06:40,160
Speaker 9: because they're thinner and like it's when it's very nice.

4535
04:06:40,400 --> 04:06:42,560
Speaker 7: You can tell when it's authentic because it's good quality,

4536
04:06:42,640 --> 04:06:45,640
Speaker 7: has a weight to it. And just aside from that,

4537
04:06:45,960 --> 04:06:49,800
Speaker 7: supporting Palestine companies is important. And they're not the only

4538
04:06:49,880 --> 04:06:53,600
Speaker 7: ones that sell Palestine coffeas they have some websites that

4539
04:06:53,640 --> 04:06:56,680
Speaker 7: they that they share on their website that you can

4540
04:06:56,720 --> 04:06:58,760
Speaker 7: get their kaffeas through. But I think it's important to

4541
04:06:58,800 --> 04:07:01,400
Speaker 7: realize that there's only one place left in all of

4542
04:07:01,480 --> 04:07:03,640
Speaker 7: Palestine that still makes the kaffita.

4543
04:07:03,960 --> 04:07:07,560
Speaker 9: Yeah, it's a good gift in the holiday season by one.

4544
04:07:08,240 --> 04:07:11,960
Speaker 7: Yeah, go add yourself to their email lissigns and they

4545
04:07:12,040 --> 04:07:15,160
Speaker 7: notify you when it's available for pre order. So I

4546
04:07:15,200 --> 04:07:19,960
Speaker 7: think supporting that factory is really important, especially now. And

4547
04:07:20,120 --> 04:07:21,920
Speaker 7: it's heartbreaking that it's the last one.

4548
04:07:22,880 --> 04:07:26,480
Speaker 9: But makes a great slink too. One time I broke

4549
04:07:26,560 --> 04:07:28,480
Speaker 9: my arm and used his guy to tie it off.

4550
04:07:28,560 --> 04:07:31,360
Speaker 9: It was works like a chap nice. So it's got

4551
04:07:31,440 --> 04:07:32,000
Speaker 9: my endorsement.

4552
04:07:32,120 --> 04:07:34,640
Speaker 7: Yeah, multiple functions still to this day.

4553
04:07:35,520 --> 04:07:35,720
Speaker 4: Yep.

4554
04:07:35,840 --> 04:07:37,480
Speaker 9: Now you can do all kinds of things. The blankets

4555
04:07:37,560 --> 04:07:39,800
Speaker 9: a sling. You can filter water through it because it's

4556
04:07:39,880 --> 04:07:43,320
Speaker 9: like a cotton fabric. You have some turbid water. So yeah,

4557
04:07:43,440 --> 04:07:50,360
Speaker 9: many uses exactly are you familiar with Dick hebdigger. No, no, no, okay,

4558
04:07:50,400 --> 04:07:53,880
Speaker 9: head Big is academic right about punk. But in his

4559
04:07:54,040 --> 04:07:57,440
Speaker 9: work on punk, he talked about how subcultures become commodified

4560
04:07:57,440 --> 04:08:02,000
Speaker 9: and then they just become aesthetics. And that's like the

4561
04:08:02,160 --> 04:08:03,920
Speaker 9: point in which happens to punk is when you can

4562
04:08:03,960 --> 04:08:06,480
Speaker 9: buy like a battle jacket, or look that jacket with

4563
04:08:06,480 --> 04:08:08,920
Speaker 9: safety pinsil down the arms a gap right like that,

4564
04:08:09,080 --> 04:08:10,600
Speaker 9: It's no longer punk, is it if you got it

4565
04:08:10,600 --> 04:08:12,560
Speaker 9: from fucking gap? Like the whole point of punk is

4566
04:08:12,600 --> 04:08:14,760
Speaker 9: to do it yourself. And I think this is in

4567
04:08:14,960 --> 04:08:17,440
Speaker 9: danger of happening again, as it kind of did in

4568
04:08:17,520 --> 04:08:19,840
Speaker 9: the early two thousands. So it just becomes an aesthetic.

4569
04:08:20,720 --> 04:08:24,240
Speaker 7: I don't want it to undermine the Palestinian narrative for liberation,

4570
04:08:24,400 --> 04:08:25,920
Speaker 7: you know what I mean. That's the thing that I

4571
04:08:25,960 --> 04:08:29,080
Speaker 7: hope does not happen. I don't think it is right now.

4572
04:08:29,240 --> 04:08:31,800
Speaker 7: I think so far people are wearing it in solidarity,

4573
04:08:31,840 --> 04:08:34,240
Speaker 7: and I personally really like when I see someone wearing

4574
04:08:34,280 --> 04:08:37,440
Speaker 7: it because I don't want I want it to be normalized.

4575
04:08:37,440 --> 04:08:39,080
Speaker 7: I don't want it to be something that people look

4576
04:08:39,120 --> 04:08:41,760
Speaker 7: at and are afraid of or are afraid of wearing.

4577
04:08:41,840 --> 04:08:43,840
Speaker 7: Because after the shooting, that happened in Vermont. A lot

4578
04:08:43,880 --> 04:08:47,120
Speaker 7: of people were afraid of even wearing a kafir of course.

4579
04:08:47,600 --> 04:08:50,400
Speaker 9: Yeah, I think it's the solidarity thing you can do, right, Like,

4580
04:08:51,600 --> 04:08:54,280
Speaker 9: you know, you can wear this, You're not only showing

4581
04:08:54,320 --> 04:08:57,880
Speaker 9: your solidarity. Maybe you can invite conversations, you know, Yeah, exactly,

4582
04:08:58,480 --> 04:09:02,080
Speaker 9: you can educate folks and like also, yeah, if people

4583
04:09:02,120 --> 04:09:05,680
Speaker 9: are being targeted, like you can choose to stand with

4584
04:09:05,800 --> 04:09:08,320
Speaker 9: them or not right and by doing that, you know,

4585
04:09:08,760 --> 04:09:11,600
Speaker 9: hopefully they can't shoot all of us. One would help,

4586
04:09:11,640 --> 04:09:15,200
Speaker 9: you know America, they fucking they've been trying. So, yeah,

4587
04:09:15,880 --> 04:09:19,120
Speaker 9: you can do it in the sense of solidarity. And yeah,

4588
04:09:19,160 --> 04:09:22,320
Speaker 9: maybe maybe you can spark some conversations which can be beneficial.

4589
04:09:22,360 --> 04:09:23,440
Speaker 4: You can educate some people.

4590
04:09:24,440 --> 04:09:27,040
Speaker 9: Yeah, if they call you, if they call it the

4591
04:09:27,080 --> 04:09:30,520
Speaker 9: scarff of Islamic murderists you had or whatever that Michelle

4592
04:09:30,560 --> 04:09:33,440
Speaker 9: Malkin called it, and probably know the conversation that will end. Well,

4593
04:09:33,800 --> 04:09:35,560
Speaker 9: then you can destroy a donut at that person.

4594
04:09:36,360 --> 04:09:40,480
Speaker 7: Yeah, it's up to us to take actions that change

4595
04:09:40,640 --> 04:09:41,760
Speaker 7: how people perceive.

4596
04:09:41,520 --> 04:09:42,160
Speaker 4: Things in the world.

4597
04:09:42,240 --> 04:09:43,800
Speaker 7: And that's just a great example.

4598
04:09:43,560 --> 04:09:44,160
Speaker 4: Of one thing.

4599
04:09:44,800 --> 04:09:48,440
Speaker 7: But I guess we've talked about in this episode how

4600
04:09:48,600 --> 04:09:52,880
Speaker 7: the coffea is part of the Palestinian past, present, and future.

4601
04:09:53,240 --> 04:09:56,320
Speaker 7: It's a historical artifact that documents the history of a people,

4602
04:09:56,760 --> 04:10:00,840
Speaker 7: and it's a living symbol that inspires hope. And it's

4603
04:10:00,920 --> 04:10:04,520
Speaker 7: interesting that a piece of cloth can have such strong

4604
04:10:04,640 --> 04:10:08,880
Speaker 7: emotions tied to it, but it's really inspiring that it's

4605
04:10:08,920 --> 04:10:13,760
Speaker 7: a prevailing symbol of freedom. And yeah, I love it.

4606
04:10:14,480 --> 04:10:18,000
Speaker 7: I feel pride wearing it. The Caffeia has become a

4607
04:10:18,080 --> 04:10:21,960
Speaker 7: way for Palestinians to visualize their land, visualize their home,

4608
04:10:22,400 --> 04:10:26,400
Speaker 7: and visualize Palestine as an entity that can exist in

4609
04:10:26,560 --> 04:10:31,160
Speaker 7: themselves as well as outside on their clothed bodies. So

4610
04:10:32,000 --> 04:10:38,800
Speaker 7: that's the episode. Uh Free Palestine. Bye Hey.

4611
04:10:38,960 --> 04:10:42,040
Speaker 2: We'll be back Monday, with more episodes every week from

4612
04:10:42,080 --> 04:10:43,760
Speaker 2: now until the heat death of the universe.

4613
04:10:44,400 --> 04:10:46,720
Speaker 7: It Could Happen Here as a production of cool Zone Media.

4614
04:10:46,960 --> 04:10:49,600
Speaker 7: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

4615
04:10:49,680 --> 04:10:51,840
Speaker 7: cool zonemedia dot com or check us out on the

4616
04:10:51,920 --> 04:10:55,280
Speaker 7: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

4617
04:10:55,760 --> 04:10:57,840
Speaker 7: You can find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated

4618
04:10:57,920 --> 04:11:01,960
Speaker 7: monthly at cool zonemedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening,