Speaker 1: The Lance Armstrong episode. I have been looking forward to
Speaker 1: this ever since we launched the podcast, and finally, deep
Speaker 1: in season three, we made it happen. And I've done
Speaker 1: a Lance for thirty four years, but we had never
Speaker 1: had this conversation. I'm gonna be totally honest with Chris.
Speaker 1: If we had this conversation, You're one of my best buds.
Speaker 1: If you had asked me these questions or ask any
Speaker 1: of these questions twelve years ago, I would have lie
Speaker 1: through my fucking teeth and one of my best friends. Now,
Speaker 1: how how messed up is that? I mean when I
Speaker 1: think of my story and I was powerful, I mean
Speaker 1: I could I could, you know, should I ask President
Speaker 1: Bush for a billion dollars for the n C? I
Speaker 1: you know, I mean, that's who does that. I didn't know.
Speaker 1: I mean the power that I had and abused. I
Speaker 1: didn't know it. And it's a shame. I'll never have
Speaker 1: that power again. UM. And I know that, I know
Speaker 1: that with certainty, and there is a part of me
Speaker 1: that that is extremely sad about out that, but I
Speaker 1: can't change it. Um. But but I know now the
Speaker 1: power that I had and and that I abused, and
Speaker 1: so UM, that's that's that's a shame. This was wide ranging, honest. Raw.
Speaker 1: The language is raw too, by the way, even a
Speaker 1: little emotional at times. Here it is my conversation with
Speaker 1: Lance Armstrong. That sounded that sounded like a good start.
Speaker 1: That's yeah. I won't tell you how I've started the
Speaker 1: interview without pushing the red button before. That's a little embarrassing,
Speaker 1: but it has happened. All right, man, here we go,
Speaker 1: Here we go. So we made about thirty four years ago,
Speaker 1: I'm doing Scholastic Sports America. Go down to visit this
Speaker 1: kid in plan Out, Texas. You don't even know that
Speaker 1: cycling is going to be your sport yet, but there
Speaker 1: was something about this kid and his mom. You had
Speaker 1: a drive, You had an edge, You had a belief
Speaker 1: in yourself. Your mom had a belief in you, and
Speaker 1: she was tough and resilient. I said, I don't know
Speaker 1: where this guy's going, but he's going somewhere, and it's
Speaker 1: gonna be interesting to see where. I don't have that
Speaker 1: sense that often. Did you have any sense that you
Speaker 1: were going somewhere interesting? I mean I didn't. God, maybe
Speaker 1: in in on some level, but I didn't know where
Speaker 1: in the world it would take me, and I certainly
Speaker 1: didn't know that I would, to your point, um, because
Speaker 1: you were there covering a young try athlete, right, I
Speaker 1: didn't know that that would lead me to the bike
Speaker 1: and the Olympic Games and onto a career professional cycling.
Speaker 1: But um, that's that belief them. I don't. No one
Speaker 1: knows specifically where we're headed. I mean, it's just unknowable.
Speaker 1: It's foolish to trying to think that here's where I'm
Speaker 1: headed specifically. But did you have a sense though Lance
Speaker 1: only child and raised by your mom, there were some
Speaker 1: tough moments in the household that you've written about. Did
Speaker 1: you have a sense that you were headed somewhere though,
Speaker 1: somewhere important to do something big? I mean, if you yeah,
Speaker 1: I would have. Uh, I think what what what you
Speaker 1: felt was probably, I mean nobody can say it with
Speaker 1: a confidence, but I was, Yeah, I was. I didn't
Speaker 1: know what scale or what level that would be on,
Speaker 1: but I was. I was pretty sure that that. I
Speaker 1: was sure, and I I never, um, you know, I
Speaker 1: saw myself going off to college and getting a job.
Speaker 1: I mean I was sure enough that I knew that
Speaker 1: that was gonna be my job you've written a little
Speaker 1: bit about it. Where do you think that that drive
Speaker 1: and that edge comes from that served you well to
Speaker 1: get to where you went. You know, it's it was
Speaker 1: this mix of um of anger as a young you know,
Speaker 1: as you alluded to it, you know, growing up with
Speaker 1: mom um um and I've never met my father had
Speaker 1: a stepfather that wasn't a good fit uh for her
Speaker 1: and I UM, and so there was there was this
Speaker 1: edge to it, um, but also I you know, at
Speaker 1: the end of the day, like you could be as
Speaker 1: mad as you want or as motivated or as is
Speaker 1: angry to to to um to prove people wrong, but
Speaker 1: at the end of the day, this is a hard game,
Speaker 1: right And you were you were covering a young tray
Speaker 1: athlete that that even at a young age fifteen sixteen
Speaker 1: years old, that was three or four hours a day
Speaker 1: of training, you know, between swim practice and track practice
Speaker 1: and riding your bike as much as you could. You know,
Speaker 1: it added up. So you gotta love it and I
Speaker 1: always did like that was um no part of me
Speaker 1: ever And and you know, maybe maybe a miserable day
Speaker 1: in the in the Alps when you got to get
Speaker 1: out there, but there's every day that it was time
Speaker 1: to go to work. I was like, fuck, yeah, let's
Speaker 1: go to work. This is this is this is fun.
Speaker 1: Like I would do this for free. Yeah. At the
Speaker 1: time me, you were trying to make a few bucks
Speaker 1: and and keep gas and whatever. Call was kind of
Speaker 1: a beat up but still pretty cool Alfa Romeo, which
Speaker 1: was an interesting car for Texas. But I mean I
Speaker 1: thought this, you know, it was very much hand to
Speaker 1: mouth man and you you earned every scrap of that.
Speaker 1: In those early days before I realized how much money
Speaker 1: cyclists made, well, I was. I was. I thought I
Speaker 1: was rich. You know, I'd go off to I had
Speaker 1: a little bit of sponsorship money, but I was you know,
Speaker 1: I was a sixteen year old kid. I'd fly off
Speaker 1: almost every weekend to compete, mostly domestically, but some trips
Speaker 1: twice to Venezuela, a couple of times to Bermuda, Mexico,
Speaker 1: um the Bahamas, and so you know, i'd come home
Speaker 1: with If I came home with in prize money, I
Speaker 1: was like, Oh, where's where's the yacht that I'm gonna buy?
Speaker 1: Like I was convinced, and I thought that was a
Speaker 1: lot of money. But the reality is I was just Uh.
Speaker 1: And my mom we lived very simply, um, and she
Speaker 1: worked and worked hard her whole life. Um, But it
Speaker 1: was just a little bit of relief for her, you know,
Speaker 1: if I needed a car or gas in the car,
Speaker 1: or haircut or go out, have you know, burgers with
Speaker 1: my buddies. Like you know, I have young kids. They're
Speaker 1: always asking me from a dad venmom, twenty bucks, forty bucks,
Speaker 1: you know, but you know, money, money, money, I'm like,
Speaker 1: so I didn't, you know, I didn't have obviously we
Speaker 1: didn't have venmo, but I didn't. It freed up that
Speaker 1: whole part of of her and eyes dynamic. Um, but
Speaker 1: it was my and my buddies thought I was rich, dude.
Speaker 1: That was the funny thing. You know. I was fourteen
Speaker 1: when my dad was diagnosed with cancer, and he died
Speaker 1: when I was sixteen, So some lessons were learned by that.
Speaker 1: Time is precious. We're guaranteed nothing. You always seemed from
Speaker 1: the time I met you, and you're about that same
Speaker 1: age that you were in a hurry. You didn't believe
Speaker 1: the time was there to be wasted. I wonder Lance
Speaker 1: if you had any kind of sense. It's pretty heavy question,
Speaker 1: but any sense deep down that that something was coming
Speaker 1: where you're gonna realize that you're guaranteed nothing. And the
Speaker 1: time could be pretty damn precious in this life because
Speaker 1: you were in a hurry from the time I met
Speaker 1: you back at that age, right, Uh, you're right and
Speaker 1: and and Chris, you you knew me during my cancer
Speaker 1: journey and at that point, so I didn't have that
Speaker 1: sense and I was in a hurry and the only
Speaker 1: time that life has really and this is the silver lining, uh,
Speaker 1: to to a diagnosis and to going through this whole
Speaker 1: process of of fighting for your life. You know, then yes,
Speaker 1: everything slows down and you everything smells different, everything looks different,
Speaker 1: friends seem different. Um. But by by golly, um, you
Speaker 1: get better, you get back, you get put back into
Speaker 1: the world, and and it's just inevitable. Life speeds up
Speaker 1: and and and even to this day, um Um, life
Speaker 1: moves fast. And that's and then now I'm fifty years old.
Speaker 1: You're gonna wait a minute, did I just make the
Speaker 1: turn and I'm the back nine? Or am I? Like?
Speaker 1: You know, just get into the cart girl, that's gonna
Speaker 1: serve me about ka Sota on fifteen? Like which which
Speaker 1: which part of the round? Am I on, and so
Speaker 1: it's it's it's a damn good point. And I don't
Speaker 1: think I don't I don't think anybody ever masters that.
Speaker 1: I mean maybe maybe, I don't know. You know, some
Speaker 1: of these elevated individuals have mastered it. But boy, life
Speaker 1: life moves quick and and um and yet I haven't
Speaker 1: figured out a way to balance it and slow it
Speaker 1: down and um and and truly cherished and look at
Speaker 1: five kids, been through a whole hell of a lot,
Speaker 1: tons of reflection, tons of mistakes that I've learned from
Speaker 1: and and um, it's it's a it's a it's not
Speaker 1: a I started saying it was struggle. It's really a journey,
Speaker 1: like just trying to figure out. And I love following
Speaker 1: actually follow a lot of your stuff on on Instagram,
Speaker 1: just whether it's through meditation, breathwork. I do think these
Speaker 1: things help. Um, I don't practice those regularly, but um, man,
Speaker 1: if you figure it out, especially at this point in
Speaker 1: my life, like I would love. I really feel like, um, yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, the story is what it is, and I'm
Speaker 1: sure we'll get into some of it or a lot
Speaker 1: of it. Um, but boy, I kind of I feel
Speaker 1: like I've got a stride again, and and that's the
Speaker 1: time where you're like, okay, man, you were at one
Speaker 1: point one of the biggest athletes in the world, and
Speaker 1: then everybody said, okay, you're done, you're canceled, and you
Speaker 1: hung in there and you were able to get that stride.
Speaker 1: That's the time when you want to say, wait a minutumue. Now,
Speaker 1: now's the time you need to slow the funk down
Speaker 1: and appreciate this because not only did you hang in there,
Speaker 1: but the world. Okay, the world gave you an opportunity
Speaker 1: to get that stride back. Like if I get to
Speaker 1: the end of my life and I look back and
Speaker 1: I think, what was that, Like again, I don't really remember,
Speaker 1: that would be a loss. Yeah, you covered a lot there,
Speaker 1: and as someone who's at the end of the decade
Speaker 1: you just began, I hope we get more than eighteen holes.
Speaker 1: I hope I get to replace sixteen or seventeen, because
Speaker 1: ships sixty we call those e holes. You know, I
Speaker 1: very often don't take the time to reflect when I
Speaker 1: feel when I'm busy it's not productive to do that.
Speaker 1: But when I sit back and reflect, I do enjoy it.
Speaker 1: A lot of the time you've had such a variety
Speaker 1: and then an intensity of experiences. Man, I mean, what
Speaker 1: role does reflection play in your life right now when
Speaker 1: you get a chance to slow down for a minute.
Speaker 1: Totally huge, huge, And you know where I when I
Speaker 1: think of reflection, you know, I'm really I really don't
Speaker 1: think of sport. I don't think of of the mistakes
Speaker 1: that that I made and and and many in my
Speaker 1: generation made. I don't. I don't think a lot about that.
Speaker 1: I think of of, yes, that happened, how did I
Speaker 1: handle it? How did I handle it as a champion,
Speaker 1: as a man, as as an idol um. I think
Speaker 1: a lot about that, And then I think about um,
Speaker 1: my children and and having And it's been interesting because
Speaker 1: I have two sets of kids. I've got of course
Speaker 1: Lucas twenty one, Grayson Isabelle at both nineteen, and then
Speaker 1: I've got Max and Olivia who are twelve and eleven.
Speaker 1: So I've had some sort of two chances to to
Speaker 1: be a father. Um. Tons of reflection on that, and
Speaker 1: I think, you know, and again to to the it
Speaker 1: is a benefit. It has been a benefit to have
Speaker 1: another chance at it. It's just a different go round, um,
Speaker 1: and not not that anything went wrong with the first one,
Speaker 1: but you know, at home more and more present. Um,
Speaker 1: just just a better dad. Uh. And then in my relationships,
Speaker 1: you know, whether it's with Anna, m friends, I think, look, relationships, marriages, partnership,
Speaker 1: what do you want to call him? Fucking complicated? And
Speaker 1: and I've not, Um, you know, Anna and I've been
Speaker 1: together for gosh, almost thirteen years now, and it's been
Speaker 1: a wild ride. You know, this woman came into we
Speaker 1: came into each other's lives at the peak and then
Speaker 1: we went straight to the bottom. And for us to
Speaker 1: to to navigate our way out of this and be
Speaker 1: closer than ever. Um, that that one I think is
Speaker 1: the most and not to minimize the others, but that
Speaker 1: piece and really honoring that is reflection has been hugely important. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's something to be tremendously proud of on both of
Speaker 1: your parts. It's right, it is sucking hard sometimes and
Speaker 1: it's not meant to be easy, and it isn't. But
Speaker 1: be proud of the fact that you guys have had
Speaker 1: those different chapters and or as strong as you are.
Speaker 1: You mentioned that's an interesting way to put it. I
Speaker 1: haven't thought about that, but almost two different fatherhoods, I mean,
Speaker 1: Luke is old enough to have been on the podium
Speaker 1: at the Tour of France in Paris. He writtnessed that
Speaker 1: kind of those chapters as a kid, Um, your daughter
Speaker 1: is not so much. And then now, um, your younger
Speaker 1: kids come along sort of after the fact. So everybody
Speaker 1: wants to know. I'm sure you get asked, what do
Speaker 1: you tell him? How do you reflect the lessons you've learned,
Speaker 1: the mistakes you've made, because that's what parenthood is about, right,
Speaker 1: teaching them the lessons you learn yourself. Complicated stuff though, right,
Speaker 1: very very very complicated in my older ones, Um live
Speaker 1: through it. I mean Luke was you know, Luke was
Speaker 1: fourteen years old. The girls were twelve, so that this
Speaker 1: was this was you know, fourteen year old kids, Uh,
Speaker 1: either see the newspaper that their parents just read or
Speaker 1: you know, watch over their parents shoulder while they're watching
Speaker 1: the Oprah or whatever. And so that was real time, right,
Speaker 1: So that was that was man all hands on deck,
Speaker 1: dealing with the school, dealing with school counselors, talking to
Speaker 1: other parents, talking to other kids, so real time, and
Speaker 1: and helping them navigate this fall from grace and it's
Speaker 1: and and I and I speak about this a lot actually,
Speaker 1: because it's my younger ones were alive. They were very
Speaker 1: very small, obviously, not seeing the newspaper, reading anything, or
Speaker 1: watching Oprah. But and this is what I speak to,
Speaker 1: is that we live in a generation where everything is forever.
Speaker 1: So while my my younger ones didn't live through it,
Speaker 1: they weren't in school. You know, nobody say anything in
Speaker 1: the hallways. Um, they're gonna grow into it. They're gonna
Speaker 1: grow up there that it's already happened. People say, oh, yeah, wait,
Speaker 1: your dad, your dad's that guy. And it's not a
Speaker 1: that's very very rare, thank god. Um. But I'd be
Speaker 1: a fool if I sat here and said Max Armstrong,
Speaker 1: who's twelve, is never gonna watch one of his dad's interviews.
Speaker 1: He's never gonna watch Oprah Winfrey. You know, they will
Speaker 1: grow into it. And so yeah, I've I've kept the
Speaker 1: same approach with all the kids. I think. You know,
Speaker 1: my older ones are are just absolutely flourishing. Um. But
Speaker 1: there will be a time where those the younger ones
Speaker 1: want to say, wait a minute, I was too young,
Speaker 1: but can we just go back there and what happened again?
Speaker 1: Are you ready for that? Totally. Absolutely. I've I've said
Speaker 1: from it'll be same policy I had with with Luke
Speaker 1: Rays and Isabel is that we're gonna have a conversation
Speaker 1: and it and it's not a one time conversation, it's
Speaker 1: an ongoing conversation. So you know, I'll answer any question
Speaker 1: and talk to you about this anytime forever. Right, there's
Speaker 1: an open door policy. And so um, it hasn't come
Speaker 1: up with the little ones. And maybe it's you know,
Speaker 1: as happens in society and and sort of in culture. Uh,
Speaker 1: not to diminish or erase the misdeeds that I have lived. Um,
Speaker 1: but things soften and and um, it'll it'll probably be
Speaker 1: a smaller story in the grand scheme for their lives,
Speaker 1: but it's still a story. And and and I think
Speaker 1: the most powerful and important thing I can do for
Speaker 1: them is just say, hey, anytime you want to talk
Speaker 1: about this, let's do it. You were bull of survivorship
Speaker 1: and you're a You're a magnet for so many people.
Speaker 1: I did witness this in some small degree, regular folks
Speaker 1: and also ultra famous, ultra accomplished legends who just wanted
Speaker 1: to meet you, wanted to know you wanted a piece
Speaker 1: of your time whenever started happening, and you realize you're right,
Speaker 1: I'm just had here raising a bike and these people
Speaker 1: I want to know me and they want to be
Speaker 1: in my presence. That kind of just feel what there is.
Speaker 1: Was there a light bulb moment we realize, oh my god,
Speaker 1: this is intense. No, now that's the sad thing. And
Speaker 1: that's when into your earlier pointer to our earlier discussion.
Speaker 1: When life is moving that fast, there is you yea.
Speaker 1: The memory can only capture so much and his life
Speaker 1: is moving and it is just hyperspeed, and you know,
Speaker 1: you're trying to do your job, You're trying to train,
Speaker 1: there's heads of state that want to hang. There's you know,
Speaker 1: rock stars, you name, it's for stars, fellow, all your
Speaker 1: peers doesn't matter. Um, the hard drive doesn't capture those moments.
Speaker 1: I mean I will have you know, my longtime manager,
Speaker 1: Mark Higgins, you know there were times he'd say, do
Speaker 1: remember that time you met so and so? Who's so
Speaker 1: and so? Give you an example? Well, I mean, you know,
Speaker 1: it's okay, it's okay, I know, and I should I
Speaker 1: didn't capture that moment either, but it's um, I'll remember it.
Speaker 1: But it and I'm not trying to protect anything, but
Speaker 1: you're just like, no, actually, I don't remember that. Okay,
Speaker 1: let me take it back to two thousand five, when
Speaker 1: you retire and there's some friends in the south of
Speaker 1: France and your phone rings and it's Bono says, hey,
Speaker 1: coming over for lunch. I've got some people. Bring all
Speaker 1: the people. I do remember that. I mean, now I'm
Speaker 1: driving like a minivan as a caravan. A car has
Speaker 1: headed down that you know, down along the Mediterranean the
Speaker 1: Bono's house, and there's like this incredible lunch and he's
Speaker 1: making speeches and toasting. I mean, and that's just a
Speaker 1: day in the summer for you, Like, I mean, well
Speaker 1: that was that come on, that was after the first retirement.
Speaker 1: That was that was That was a big deal. I okay,
Speaker 1: at least acknowledge it was a big deal. I think
Speaker 1: you're saying I've forgotten about Wait a minute. Those of
Speaker 1: us who are there think about that a lot. If
Speaker 1: you're a YouTube fan, and he's a wonderful friend and
Speaker 1: and and he is quite the orator. I mean, he
Speaker 1: you'll remember, and you know, the rose was flowing and
Speaker 1: so everybody was everybody was that was no, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: I'm not. I'm not forgetting that one. Good. I'm glad
Speaker 1: you know you're you're various to you see the look
Speaker 1: in people's eyes, you look into their eyes, you take
Speaker 1: their measure. You had to do that as an athlete,
Speaker 1: you do it and what you do for a living now.
Speaker 1: And the look you saw in other people's eyes when
Speaker 1: they check you out, I mean I saw some of it.
Speaker 1: It was beyond respected admiration. Some it was just awe sometimes.
Speaker 1: And you see that in people, and you saw it
Speaker 1: for years, maybe you're too busy to notice it, but
Speaker 1: now maybe you see different things. People's eyes, What what expressions?
Speaker 1: What what vibe do you get from people when you
Speaker 1: bump into them? Is it run the gamut? Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: it's um. It's evolved, you know, that's it's been. And
Speaker 1: I always use Oprah as although the downfall started before that,
Speaker 1: that was really the um sort of coming out party
Speaker 1: for the public, and that was that was January thirt
Speaker 1: It's been, you know, we're coming on nine years and
Speaker 1: so it has evolved and um it uh it um
Speaker 1: I've alway I've been no matter what, even early on,
Speaker 1: no matter what, I've only had one negative reaction, which
Speaker 1: was covered pretty well in the ESPN thirty for thirty.
Speaker 1: But you know, it didn't need to be a bunch
Speaker 1: of people standing up at a bar going fuck you. Right.
Speaker 1: We all know when you're sitting on a plane and
Speaker 1: the guy next to you his and instaid a word.
Speaker 1: You know, in his mind is going fuck this guy.
Speaker 1: We know so, but I have always been okay with that.
Speaker 1: I didn't you know, nobody's you know, votes for that.
Speaker 1: But look, I and it's it's more of an understanding
Speaker 1: that that so many people were along for this ride,
Speaker 1: in this journey, that um, there was bound to be
Speaker 1: some hurt feelings, a lot of hurt feelings and and
Speaker 1: a lot of um um anger. And so I was.
Speaker 1: I decided very early on that my world will change
Speaker 1: forever and and I better be a tough guy and
Speaker 1: a big all these things I've ever wanted to be
Speaker 1: a you know, tough and and and and resilient all
Speaker 1: this ship now is the time. And and I was,
Speaker 1: and and I accepted. How is that different? How is
Speaker 1: that toughness a resilient different than than having to bounce
Speaker 1: back after a long day in the bike or meet
Speaker 1: the attacks on the slopes about the west. How is
Speaker 1: it different or is it all that it's different? That
Speaker 1: was easy, and upon reflection, that was really those are
Speaker 1: physically hard days and you're tired. But and and I well,
Speaker 1: I mean we had rough days on the bike with
Speaker 1: the public. We were not certainly not the most popular.
Speaker 1: Um but I I just those are easy days compared
Speaker 1: to now sometimes uh yeah, yeah, and when but I
Speaker 1: should say it is evolved, you know. And I more
Speaker 1: and more as I walked through my day, I encounter
Speaker 1: a lot of folks that that will they'll they'll take
Speaker 1: you through the whole journey. Man. Let me tell you something.
Speaker 1: I was your biggest fan, and I fucking hated you.
Speaker 1: And then you know, I listened to a couple of
Speaker 1: your podcast. I see the stuff you're doing, and I
Speaker 1: see the way you act, I see the things you say.
Speaker 1: You know, I think I'm I think I'm okay. Now
Speaker 1: you know, it's just and by the way I mean
Speaker 1: it sounds to its course. Absolutely, that's the cool thing
Speaker 1: like that, because I do have more time, right those
Speaker 1: days which you experienced, some of you don't have any time.
Speaker 1: You know, somebody's trying to tell you some great story
Speaker 1: and you're like, hey, thanks, gotta go. Whereas now it's
Speaker 1: like tell me, walk me through it. And it's just
Speaker 1: a different look in a different connection with other people. Um,
Speaker 1: it's it's it's I wouldn't you know, I wouldn't trade it, man,
Speaker 1: It's it's been nartly. But I'm but I tell myself
Speaker 1: all the time, and I tell others when I wake up,
Speaker 1: I don't I don't want to wake up as anybody else.
Speaker 1: I kind of looked at myself and go, glad, I'm
Speaker 1: you weird. No, I mean that's the only way to be.
Speaker 1: But there there will be people imagining that you were
Speaker 1: sitting there saying something different, like can I just disappear? Man?
Speaker 1: And I just go somewhere where nobody knows my face,
Speaker 1: nobody's ever heard of me. They don't care about cycling
Speaker 1: and EPA and now that stuff. I mean, that's that's that's,
Speaker 1: that's the decision that that you're um faced with right
Speaker 1: to to just fade away and or even more um
Speaker 1: toxic or self damaging. Um. There are plenty of other
Speaker 1: things that folks can get into to numb that experience
Speaker 1: in that pain. I didn't do I chose uh to
Speaker 1: not do that. I chose to to triple down on
Speaker 1: my family, to double down on my health and wellness
Speaker 1: and just hang in there. And who knows man, And
Speaker 1: I was I joked, I was like, maybe somebody will
Speaker 1: throw me the ball again, because if they throw me
Speaker 1: the ball, I ain't dropping it and I'm running, I promise,
Speaker 1: And um, you know, I don't know where I am
Speaker 1: in that cycle. You know, there's a lot of good
Speaker 1: stuff going on. But I'm glad I hung in there.
Speaker 1: I mean, there was there was I will tell you this.
Speaker 1: There was probably a day because Anna and I are married,
Speaker 1: so she's got a different last name. There was a
Speaker 1: day I said, Honey, I said, I need to become
Speaker 1: Lance Handsome as soon as possible. And She's like, what
Speaker 1: the funk are you talking about? Like you were Lance
Speaker 1: Armstrong and so um. But that that was very you know,
Speaker 1: that was just a split second and it just just
Speaker 1: hand just hung in there. You got deep early here.
Speaker 1: I appreciate that. I wasn't sure we would go that
Speaker 1: deep or get there that quick. You mentioned. I mean
Speaker 1: there's others. There's simple stuff we could talk about. You know,
Speaker 1: there's you know stuff too. We could we could talk
Speaker 1: about how we both went to the same high school
Speaker 1: in Colorado Springs with other with other um you know,
Speaker 1: uh we did at different times. I don't know. My
Speaker 1: attendants is probably better than yours because you were just
Speaker 1: then the Olympic Training center in Colorado Springs. I don't
Speaker 1: want to you said a couple of times mistakes, misdeeds,
Speaker 1: and without me even bringing it up. So what were
Speaker 1: the mistakes if you were to list them in order,
Speaker 1: what were the mistakes you made? Well, the mistakes are
Speaker 1: it's you know, most folks want to hear. I mean,
Speaker 1: if you if it's any uh anything widely categorized as cheating,
Speaker 1: they want to they want you to address that mistake.
Speaker 1: It's a very very complicated time. And I you know,
Speaker 1: I I never give popular answers when it comes to this.
Speaker 1: We were we were in a cesspool and looked it
Speaker 1: was we all made mistakes, and that that doesn't make
Speaker 1: mind bigger or smaller news. But but the mistakes were made,
Speaker 1: and I became the best in our sport and became
Speaker 1: the biggest by far in our sport. I was the
Speaker 1: voice of the sport, the face of the sport, and
Speaker 1: so therefore and I in many ways brought this onto myself,
Speaker 1: which was also a mistake. You know, I'm the one
Speaker 1: who invited all the questions and invited all the scrutiny,
Speaker 1: and it was easy, right, There were plenty of things
Speaker 1: leading up this to naturally continue the scrutiny, and I
Speaker 1: just I just could not um. I couldn't differentiate between
Speaker 1: on the bike and off the bike, so to speak.
Speaker 1: As hard as I fought on the bike, as hard
Speaker 1: as I fought in training, and I get off the bike,
Speaker 1: I just wanted to fight. People ask me, que you know,
Speaker 1: fuck you and you just lie, lie, deny, deny, deny.
Speaker 1: And that's a very you know. And again this is
Speaker 1: if I had, just if if I could have stepped out,
Speaker 1: just whatever factor it is from there and and seeing
Speaker 1: me this guy, all the things that you've said, Chris,
Speaker 1: this person who all the words that that you just used,
Speaker 1: that people would stand in all that you were a hero,
Speaker 1: that you were carrying this entire cancer community, that you
Speaker 1: were carrying the entire sport. If I would have realized
Speaker 1: the importance of that role, it would it might have
Speaker 1: been different. I almost said it would have been because
Speaker 1: I can't guarantee that because I'm a hard headed, tough
Speaker 1: mofo and so, but it might have been a little different.
Speaker 1: And I just um, I had no appreciation for the
Speaker 1: position that I held, and so therefore I abused it.
Speaker 1: And so that's those to me. Yes, we have to
Speaker 1: acknowledge that the unfortunate time for all of us, we
Speaker 1: all made mistakes there, not to minimize it, but the
Speaker 1: bigger sin was just how I didn't understand and appreciate
Speaker 1: the position I was in, and and and as a man,
Speaker 1: I mean that that if you think about it, you know,
Speaker 1: there's there's no honor in that. There's no honor in
Speaker 1: line and denying, there's no honor in attacking other people.
Speaker 1: There's no honor and sort of perpetuating this myth um
Speaker 1: and so that that's you know, that's the stuff. Those
Speaker 1: are lessons boy you as a parent or as a
Speaker 1: friend or is just watching other people fall. You can't
Speaker 1: teach those lessons like that. This is you kind of
Speaker 1: you just have to live it. I know that contrition
Speaker 1: isn't easy for you. That sometimes apologies aren't easy for
Speaker 1: a lot of us. I mean, with a lot of
Speaker 1: us do work on ourselves to get better in the
Speaker 1: areas that we need to improve. Whether that is saying
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I fucked up, I should have done better
Speaker 1: in this. I mean you've worked on that, right, because
Speaker 1: it those things were challenging for you, yet a sobbeign
Speaker 1: streak that served you well as an athlete and maybe
Speaker 1: in a lot of other fields. But was it seems
Speaker 1: I'm hearing you say they kind of got in the
Speaker 1: way of stepping back and and and stepping up brilliant
Speaker 1: in those moments. Absolutely, I mean that's that's you know,
Speaker 1: I think there's there are the um the obvious in
Speaker 1: in the ark of this story, there are the obvious ones. Um.
Speaker 1: By the way, there's no way to make you know,
Speaker 1: this story as as big as it was, there's no
Speaker 1: way to make amends with everybody. Whether that's the handful
Speaker 1: of folks that many people think of, but there's really
Speaker 1: if you think about it, there's handful. They're a handful
Speaker 1: of maybe billions of people that that I'll never get
Speaker 1: to meet that we're affected, and we're upset and felt
Speaker 1: not just betrayed, but also felt complicit because they were
Speaker 1: a part of this story and they took so much
Speaker 1: to personal pride and invested so much that they felt
Speaker 1: complicit um. Those are the ones that I just ad man,
Speaker 1: I if you could just you know, people always situations
Speaker 1: like this is an apology tour, you know at the etceteration.
Speaker 1: You can't because the real community is out there, like
Speaker 1: you'll never The only way to do it, I think
Speaker 1: is to is to live a life of with as
Speaker 1: high as of honors as you can and and and look,
Speaker 1: boil it right down. I mean, we're having a conversation.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna be totally honest with Chris. If we'd have
Speaker 1: had this conversation, you're one of my best buds. If
Speaker 1: you'd asked me these questions or ask any of these
Speaker 1: questions twelve years ago, I would have light in my
Speaker 1: fucking teeth and one of my best friends. Now, how
Speaker 1: how messed up is that? So you just that's just
Speaker 1: been my commitment. I don't know. You know, if five
Speaker 1: new people will listen to this and go okay, that's different.
Speaker 1: I don't know, man. There's an evolution process that people
Speaker 1: who pay attention and haven't formed opinions and decided long
Speaker 1: ago which people do, they get in trenched and then
Speaker 1: your story is written in their head and they don't
Speaker 1: care what you say or what you do. Case closed.
Speaker 1: But it's pretty clear you've done work. Do you think
Speaker 1: you've done all you can do? Or is it an
Speaker 1: evolving process to say, hey, I'm sorry to those affected,
Speaker 1: or I should have been better, I should have stepped up.
Speaker 1: Is that in your view? Done? No? This story was
Speaker 1: too big. This this was too big. And I and
Speaker 1: I do now know, you know, I I am far
Speaker 1: enough to removed. And as you know, I follow enough sports,
Speaker 1: and I watch guys, and I watched the way they act,
Speaker 1: and and I see the way they treat their competitors,
Speaker 1: and they handle the press and they deal with fans.
Speaker 1: I'm far enough removed to now know how big and
Speaker 1: massive the story was. So with that knowledge, it will
Speaker 1: never be done right. This is again, I don't know
Speaker 1: what hole we're on here for the rest of my life.
Speaker 1: And it's funny. I hear I hear people, you know,
Speaker 1: I get people come up to me and say, you
Speaker 1: know what you've already said, You're sorry. Stop saying you're sorry.
Speaker 1: I don't buy that, and not that I have to
Speaker 1: sit here and say I'm sorry. But what I do
Speaker 1: have to do is sit here and have a very
Speaker 1: super honest dialogue with you that your fans are your
Speaker 1: listeners are gonna you know, take in and so no,
Speaker 1: it will it will never ever be done. And anybody
Speaker 1: that tells me to stop, I think they're wrong. The
Speaker 1: idea that people are telling you to stop apologizing and
Speaker 1: then you're list and you're weighing that off is interesting
Speaker 1: because for a while, just one apology was tough to
Speaker 1: come from. And I but that's evolution, man. I think
Speaker 1: it's I think people need to appreciate that you've done
Speaker 1: that work. You know, nine years since they officially you know,
Speaker 1: stripped those seven Tour de front titles and they quote
Speaker 1: never happened and they never named another winner. They're just
Speaker 1: kind of seven blank years in the overall classification. Um.
Speaker 1: And you know you were You deserve to be forgotten
Speaker 1: forever for cycling, said some of the officials you run
Speaker 1: those things. I mean, you're smiling now. But is that
Speaker 1: he to choose that bother you that people believe that
Speaker 1: should never happened. Well, I think if anybody believes that it,
Speaker 1: I don't I choose. I don't think people. I think
Speaker 1: people's memories are are their memory and they're pretty good,
Speaker 1: and they they've watched these races. And if you're beamed
Speaker 1: up enough, then you know that it was a fund
Speaker 1: up time. And but you're still you know, I think
Speaker 1: most people understand the best man one Um and Andre,
Speaker 1: certainly early days, you know, because what what who are
Speaker 1: the leaders of sports? Their politicians? Right? So they get
Speaker 1: up and again you know he deserves to be a
Speaker 1: raised off that. You know. Okay, that's fine, But guess
Speaker 1: what I've hung in there? You know what all you
Speaker 1: know what never lies, Chris, because it caught up to
Speaker 1: me at one point in my life. You know, it
Speaker 1: never lies. History never lies. History never lies. History always
Speaker 1: makes things right. And so I don't I don't need Um.
Speaker 1: I don't need the tour to call me back and say,
Speaker 1: you know what, we feel like history is gonna make
Speaker 1: this right. Let's give you if I could move my
Speaker 1: UM zoom camera and it might be fun. At the
Speaker 1: end of the interview, I'm in my office here and
Speaker 1: ask them. Down street from the house, there's seven yellow
Speaker 1: jerseys hanging on the wall. I haven't. I don't hang
Speaker 1: cycling stuff anywhere, but I hung I'm here in the office.
Speaker 1: Nobody came to get him. No organizer, no governing body,
Speaker 1: none of my peers came to pick them up. So
Speaker 1: I didn't race to go down in record books are
Speaker 1: on Wikipedia pages. I raced for myself because it was
Speaker 1: my job. I raced from my memories and I raised
Speaker 1: for my team, and nobody can take those from me,
Speaker 1: and so I I am. And I also don't want
Speaker 1: to get in the camp of you know, uh well
Speaker 1: there has to be a winner. Of course, you know,
Speaker 1: normally there does have to be a winner. It is
Speaker 1: what it is. And UM, I just trust because it
Speaker 1: caught up with me. I trust that ultimately, UM, the
Speaker 1: history will set the record straight. Yeah, I'll get personal
Speaker 1: for a second here. The day that that the postal
Speaker 1: service team rides into Paris of the shops, so they say,
Speaker 1: in front with you in yellow jersey the first year
Speaker 1: you wanted UM, no one more you've been UM knowing
Speaker 1: the part that cancer played in my life and and
Speaker 1: so many others that are around you. UM is an
Speaker 1: unforgettable experience. I mean, and that happened. It can't be erased.
Speaker 1: It was there, I felt it, and and for you
Speaker 1: when you think back of whether it's those moments with
Speaker 1: the team and the bus, the moments on the mountain,
Speaker 1: those moments in the shops. So they say, I mean,
Speaker 1: are those the same kind of powerful memories and just
Speaker 1: as sweet And there's no yeah, but attached to it, right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's no yeah, but yeah it was it was those
Speaker 1: are those are amazing memories and and an amazing friendships
Speaker 1: forged and and still you know, all of which very
Speaker 1: very strong except for two uh to today and so
Speaker 1: um yeah, those the guys you go to war with
Speaker 1: and and and and interestingly enough, because when I raised
Speaker 1: you know, I didn't know that. I I just sort
Speaker 1: of pretended that I hated my competitors, like I hate
Speaker 1: that guy, I go kick his ass, you know that
Speaker 1: pretend because I want to ask you. I'm gonna I
Speaker 1: want to get to the Jana story, your man rival,
Speaker 1: because those emotions are powerful. That's very recent. But you
Speaker 1: always fostered the idea that to bring the best out
Speaker 1: of yourself, you had to hate that son of a bit.
Speaker 1: Only at any athletes have done that. That was These
Speaker 1: guys were like a plus human beings, you know. They
Speaker 1: were like great sons and and and amazing fathers and
Speaker 1: kids and great neighbors, and and I was like, yeah,
Speaker 1: they suck, you know. I mean that was just I
Speaker 1: don't know, we were just getting them. It was all
Speaker 1: made up in my own head. And look it worked.
Speaker 1: But it's been fun and and and frankly just been
Speaker 1: incredible to get to know a lot of these guys
Speaker 1: as as just former competitors. And of course Joan Is
Speaker 1: is the greatest example, and Jean was also the one.
Speaker 1: I mean I didn't really truly want to hate John,
Speaker 1: like it was a part of he was like, man,
Speaker 1: if I love this guy because he wakes me up
Speaker 1: early and he makes me train hard and I'm scared
Speaker 1: to death as motherfucker. Um, I just uh, but mostly
Speaker 1: the others and I just kind of created it. Um,
Speaker 1: but great memories. Great. You know, I'm the an al
Speaker 1: rics story. Um. If you don't know cycling, it's a long,
Speaker 1: complicated one. Let's just say he was a legend. He
Speaker 1: on the tourt fronts before you came along. Uh, he
Speaker 1: was always your main rival. He came second a few times,
Speaker 1: and then he he ran into some very very difficult
Speaker 1: times and um, he had his own um doping situation
Speaker 1: to deal with. He wasn't able to deal with as
Speaker 1: well as as you did. Frankly, I'm just gonna step
Speaker 1: back and say that you know, he he had complicated problems,
Speaker 1: talked about his depression, his addiction. You recently had an
Speaker 1: encounter with him. The lance and emotions came out of
Speaker 1: you that people are not used to seeing. Maybe you're
Speaker 1: not used to feeling them. What was it that was
Speaker 1: so powerful about that reunion with the guy who was
Speaker 1: your main rival years later. Well, we had we've had
Speaker 1: a couple of we've kept in touch and um, you know,
Speaker 1: I think really before I get into the two specific
Speaker 1: um sort of rendezvous that we've had, you know, he
Speaker 1: I just said it. I mean he was This was
Speaker 1: a man who scared the living ship out of me.
Speaker 1: There was no other guy in the peloton that I said, Man,
Speaker 1: I think that guy can beat me. No, John Ulrich,
Speaker 1: I knew could beat me. Like he just pure pure talent.
Speaker 1: He he was a beast and so he scared me,
Speaker 1: and he motivated me, and I trained so hard. And
Speaker 1: he didn't have that that d NA like he knew
Speaker 1: he had talent, but he also knew he liked to
Speaker 1: have fun. And you know, he could fall back on
Speaker 1: the talent. I had talent, but I was like, man,
Speaker 1: I better I better triple down on this talent here,
Speaker 1: because this guy is coming for me, and this guy
Speaker 1: can easily beat me. And so it was just a
Speaker 1: reverend and a respect for him as as competitors that
Speaker 1: I had. And then, you know, we both had very
Speaker 1: similar downfalls. He of course had some doping issues and
Speaker 1: and he could not that we and then we both
Speaker 1: had this fall from grace Johan and and I don't
Speaker 1: think I'm speaking out of turn here, Jan would agree
Speaker 1: with us. He could not handle that and it led
Speaker 1: him down a path that was so dark. And when
Speaker 1: I say dark, I mean very very dark. Um and
Speaker 1: Jan lost everything. And and you know that my first
Speaker 1: to reconnection was with him was when I a few
Speaker 1: of his friends. I mean we were getting and now
Speaker 1: looking back on it, I think we know more. We
Speaker 1: were truly getting to the end of his life and
Speaker 1: something had to happen. There had to be some intervention.
Speaker 1: And so some of his best buddies that were normal guys.
Speaker 1: You know, I finally had some normal dudes in his life,
Speaker 1: like guys that didn't want him for his money or
Speaker 1: his fame is whatever. They just called me the Baldinger
Speaker 1: brothers um Um from Amerdic in Germany. They called me
Speaker 1: to said Lance, you gotta come m hm. And you
Speaker 1: were the one they felt could could pull them out
Speaker 1: of it, even though it had been kind of an
Speaker 1: interesting relationship. You you kept in touch from Afar, but
Speaker 1: they you were the one they felt we could come
Speaker 1: rescue this guy. We didn't keep in touch at all.
Speaker 1: We when I went to see him at a at
Speaker 1: a so called rehab facility. Um, we hadn't seen each other,
Speaker 1: and I think it would be an interesting I mean,
Speaker 1: you know what they would what they told me, and
Speaker 1: maybe this is the story. They had tried everything. I
Speaker 1: tried old teammates, they had tried old sponsors, they had
Speaker 1: tried old friends, and Jehan just pushed them away, pushed
Speaker 1: them away, push them away in their minds. Um. You
Speaker 1: know that reverence and that fear and that respect I
Speaker 1: had for him he also had for me, And so
Speaker 1: they wanted to use that card. They said, you're the
Speaker 1: only guy that can scare him, You're the only you.
Speaker 1: You have to And I said I'll be there to Mark.
Speaker 1: I got on airplane, flew over there and we surprised
Speaker 1: him and it was just and and you know, I
Speaker 1: give a ton of credit to the ball Nikker brothers
Speaker 1: and the and the true friends that he finally had
Speaker 1: around him. But we got him on this path. And man,
Speaker 1: he's been sober two or three years now. He is training,
Speaker 1: he's back in his kids lives and and it's just
Speaker 1: been and you know, it got covered and you're asking
Speaker 1: me about it. It got covered. I don't need to
Speaker 1: talk about that. I mean, I I would have I
Speaker 1: would have done that if if nobody ever knew. He
Speaker 1: was so special to me. And and to now hear
Speaker 1: him and I just saw him gosh a month ago
Speaker 1: in my Orca when I was over there and we
Speaker 1: had him on our podcast to hear him talk about
Speaker 1: how close he was to death and and and and frankly,
Speaker 1: he looked like he was close to death when I
Speaker 1: went over there years ago, two or three years ago.
Speaker 1: I've never seen a human being like that, Right, We
Speaker 1: all like to go out and have some cocktails and
Speaker 1: some guys get sucked up like, well, he's sucked up. No, no, no,
Speaker 1: You've never seen a human This is like an alien.
Speaker 1: It's scared the living ship out of me. Chris and Uh.
Speaker 1: I left thinking, man, I don't know, and boy, it
Speaker 1: shows you as strong he is. I mean, he pulled
Speaker 1: out of it and he is rocking. I listened to the
Speaker 1: the man. You guys are hanging out. He's talking about
Speaker 1: how healthy he is, how he's he's sober, he's riding
Speaker 1: the bike, he's doing well. I mean, it's a it's
Speaker 1: a pretty miraculous comeback. And to think that you had
Speaker 1: a role in that, I mean, he had to do
Speaker 1: it himself, but you had a role in that, providing
Speaker 1: the spark in an impetus. Um. A movie should be
Speaker 1: done about this, and it probably will be down the line,
Speaker 1: but what what kind of feelings are that bringing you
Speaker 1: to see where he is now? And and it's it's
Speaker 1: it's um, it's it's the it's the greatest comeback I've
Speaker 1: ever seen. And then we've seen and you know, and
Speaker 1: not so much in the sports comeback just didn't light
Speaker 1: like this. You're counting yourself on that, well, I Chris,
Speaker 1: I saw the man I saw three years ago, and
Speaker 1: Yahn confirmed it just when we were with him. He said,
Speaker 1: you know, he referenced another one of our great competitors
Speaker 1: are great Piers Marco Pantani. He said, I was on
Speaker 1: the path of Pontani. The next stop was death and
Speaker 1: and unfortunately for Marco. You know, nobody could could have
Speaker 1: you know, could could have stepped in there for him,
Speaker 1: and he died. Um. But uh, yeah, it's it's it's
Speaker 1: part of the I don't want to go too deep
Speaker 1: and project here of his part of it because you
Speaker 1: saw him, and there were parallels in your story and
Speaker 1: and and you were both canceled in in your own ways,
Speaker 1: and yet you found the strength and you had the support,
Speaker 1: you said, the loving family to not go down that path.
Speaker 1: It was part of what you were feeling and seeing. Jeez,
Speaker 1: you know that could have been me. Of course it
Speaker 1: was different. Yeah, and and and also um, a fair
Speaker 1: amount of of of just frustration with because so many
Speaker 1: of our generation were um lived through the same situation
Speaker 1: that he and I lived. We made those choices on
Speaker 1: the bike. We were caught. And as as I suppose,
Speaker 1: as is the case in society, they get the top
Speaker 1: guy and and cancel him, destroy him, try to intentionally
Speaker 1: destroy him, shame him, embarrass him, totally fuck him, and
Speaker 1: everybody else gets covered. And this is the thing in
Speaker 1: in in Baigali is the same thing happened with Pantani.
Speaker 1: It's the same thing to have with Vanderberg. It's the
Speaker 1: same thing to happen with him. And as you can
Speaker 1: go across the country's every country has one. And it's
Speaker 1: just it's just I get so frustrated, because yes, if
Speaker 1: people Lyne and I get caught, you gotta pay the consequences.
Speaker 1: But when you see the real effect ian you can
Speaker 1: ban somebody, you can do whatever you want to do,
Speaker 1: but when they're on death door, fuck it, man, we've
Speaker 1: gone too far. And that happened to Marco, and it
Speaker 1: happened to him, and it and having a bandever, and
Speaker 1: it almost happened to on the one guy that I
Speaker 1: that that I held higher than anybody else. They almost
Speaker 1: killed him. Because now there's a lot of ways to
Speaker 1: look at this. He was not equipped to handle the downfall.
Speaker 1: But but the double standard and the hypocrisy and all
Speaker 1: of it, it just makes me so you know, I
Speaker 1: still get mad. You can hear it in my voice.
Speaker 1: And we're dealing with we're dealing with human beings and
Speaker 1: you're in some of them are not equipped and so
Speaker 1: but god, dang, you know, he made it out. It's
Speaker 1: a happy ending, you know it. But it's a happy
Speaker 1: chapter right now anyway, Yes, yeah, And I think Jahan's committed,
Speaker 1: and he sends me literally there are days I wake
Speaker 1: up on WhatsApp. I have forty five messages, four or
Speaker 1: five four five messages. He's just the happiest guys like, Hey,
Speaker 1: I'm on a ride, Hey my kids, Hey I'm in
Speaker 1: the swimp. Hey I'm the gym. Guys sending me pictures
Speaker 1: of him in the gym without his shirt on. I'm
Speaker 1: fifty years old. I don't give a shirt about raising y'all. Olrick.
Speaker 1: I see him in the gym with his shirt off,
Speaker 1: I'm like, fuck, I gotta get in the gym, like
Speaker 1: it's still the fire is still there? What I do?
Speaker 1: Hear anger in your voice. I know that anger doesn't
Speaker 1: dominate your life. But what brings you joy these days?
Speaker 1: What gets you up and meets in the most joy?
Speaker 1: I mean, I know you have the five kids, so
Speaker 1: that's kind of a given, but what else they're They're amazing.
Speaker 1: I love working. I'm i um. I don't like zoom,
Speaker 1: although I love I love chatting with an old body
Speaker 1: like you over zoom. But this whole zoom quote. You know,
Speaker 1: so I work a lot. You know, I started in
Speaker 1: early days venture fund when of my partners know when
Speaker 1: he's strong with Julian Eisen, we're out investing in health
Speaker 1: and wellness. I create content like that podcast all over
Speaker 1: the place. Um it, I love you and I and
Speaker 1: I referenced it earlier. But and I stopped short of
Speaker 1: even saying it's enough. People have granted me permission to
Speaker 1: move forward. And I'm not saying it's a thousand people
Speaker 1: or a billion people. I don't know, it doesn't matter.
Speaker 1: But and I'm I'm super humble and so damn appreciative
Speaker 1: of this that I have been given the opportunity to
Speaker 1: move forward. And it's incredible. And and that's fun. I
Speaker 1: mean that is has a hell of a lot more fun.
Speaker 1: You know. People love to think about retiring and I'm
Speaker 1: gonna go play golf all the time my buddies, and
Speaker 1: I'm gonna take it. They get back that I did
Speaker 1: that when I was in time out. It ain't that fun.
Speaker 1: Playing offense and hustling and moving forward. Now that's fun. Yes,
Speaker 1: you can still go do all those little fun things,
Speaker 1: but on no way, that's not for me, you still
Speaker 1: have fun while you're doing it. And your podcast, The
Speaker 1: Move cover cycling races, you're right back in at you
Speaker 1: guys who previews, you do, wrap ups, you do during
Speaker 1: the event reports. I mean you seem you seem to
Speaker 1: love it, whereas a lot of people when they were
Speaker 1: done with the sport, and it was a sport that
Speaker 1: was that intense and that consuming and ended in its
Speaker 1: one ugly way, the last thing you want to do
Speaker 1: is watch a bike race. I'm talking about the bike racers.
Speaker 1: But we but we have we did we did it
Speaker 1: in a different way. I mean, if if the format
Speaker 1: of the show was Okay, Chris a kilometer thirty two,
Speaker 1: Chris Room got a flat tire and a kilometer, Uh,
Speaker 1: you know, so and so went off the fuck that
Speaker 1: we're we're way more bar stool. It's like, well, you know,
Speaker 1: it's myself and my old side kicked the greatest teammate
Speaker 1: of all time Georgine Cappy and our co host JB. Hagar,
Speaker 1: and we just take an air reverend view. It's a suit.
Speaker 1: We are not that because one of the by products
Speaker 1: of the whole meltdown was I don't work for anybody.
Speaker 1: I work for myself and we thank god we live
Speaker 1: in a generation where you can actually create content on
Speaker 1: your own. Well, look, we have you and I have
Speaker 1: a couple of bikes. You're gonna put this up on
Speaker 1: iTunes and Spotify or whatever. YouTube. Hello, that wasn't very hard.
Speaker 1: So we can really do whatever we want to do
Speaker 1: and we have fun with it. And it's just that
Speaker 1: part's easy. And this is uh played on out for
Speaker 1: a couple more decades. This is what you You're doing
Speaker 1: what you want to do? Are there other chapters I've
Speaker 1: thought of? I thought about it because you know, at
Speaker 1: fifty year, like right on the right on the border,
Speaker 1: you're like, yes, you're starting to be an old man,
Speaker 1: but you still feel like is it that entertaining when
Speaker 1: I'm seventy? Like if you if you see you spit
Speaker 1: out seventy like I mean, as someone who's gonna turn
Speaker 1: sixty next August, don't you know? Don't don't act like
Speaker 1: fifty is like the beginning of the end. No, it's
Speaker 1: but I have Can I ask you one question because
Speaker 1: I've I've been thinking a lot about this. Yeah, is
Speaker 1: it me or in broadcast? You know, I'm talking about
Speaker 1: the big sports primarily football, college football? Or are they
Speaker 1: just hiring guys that either sound like you collins Worth
Speaker 1: and Nance or something all of these I'm like, every
Speaker 1: time I hear a guy, I'm like, is that that's
Speaker 1: not valor they're all trying to say. I think they don't.
Speaker 1: I don't know it. They're hiring you should just be yourself, right,
Speaker 1: no matter what. They send these guys home and they
Speaker 1: go listen to Fouler and just sound like him. Right, Well,
Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, did you ride a bike
Speaker 1: like somebody else when you get into this, whatever your
Speaker 1: field is. I always telling young people we're seeing you
Speaker 1: just how to imitate and it's normal to pick up
Speaker 1: on stuff like that and you queue it subconsciously, but
Speaker 1: you don't go out and try to imitate somebody. And
Speaker 1: that's just what I tell young people who want to
Speaker 1: do whatever for a living. So I worked out for
Speaker 1: you and now they're yeah, I just it's an observation.
Speaker 1: I've head, lady, I want the listeners. Next time you're watching,
Speaker 1: just just close your eyes and one is enough. My
Speaker 1: wife would say, um, you know that that that sixteen
Speaker 1: year old kid that that was in plain Now, I
Speaker 1: mean we talked about having a sense that maybe something
Speaker 1: was gonna happen, but you didn't know what. Now that
Speaker 1: all this has happened, I asked this question everybody because
Speaker 1: it's something I think about myself. What would you tell
Speaker 1: him to get ready for? What would you tell him, Hey,
Speaker 1: have skill ready, do this, don't do that? And and
Speaker 1: me telling them knowing knowing how to play as you
Speaker 1: said that right now, Um, we've covered a lot of it.
Speaker 1: I mean, if you could just and this is just,
Speaker 1: if I could reflect on my me reflecting on my
Speaker 1: life and what I wish I could have appreciated or
Speaker 1: or learned or gleaned, that's the same thing as what
Speaker 1: you would tell this kid. Um, you try to slow
Speaker 1: it down. Um, UM understand you know, whatever whatever stage
Speaker 1: you get to, right you could be the star high
Speaker 1: school quarterback. When you know what that's like. When you're
Speaker 1: the you're a five star quarterback and every little kid
Speaker 1: in that town is looking at you. They're all looking
Speaker 1: at you. Understand what that means. Understand the way to that,
Speaker 1: the responsibility of that, and in everything you do, whether
Speaker 1: it's what you think, say or do. UM, never lose
Speaker 1: sight of that. And I lost sight of it. Um
Speaker 1: and um, you know, I think you know, the one
Speaker 1: thing I did um perhaps not failing. I mean I
Speaker 1: was very as you know, I was very, very close
Speaker 1: to my mother and I'm still very close to her.
Speaker 1: And I've had those consistent themes in my life. I
Speaker 1: think for any young kid that is, especially if you're
Speaker 1: gonna get big, because man that all these pretenders, imposers
Speaker 1: and phonies are gonna come. They're there And and Jana
Speaker 1: is a great example. Right at the end of the day,
Speaker 1: at the end of what was almost the end of
Speaker 1: his life, he had his true, true friends. And we
Speaker 1: see it all the time in Sport. And so UM,
Speaker 1: I think to me, is if and I'm still looking
Speaker 1: for that holy grail of slowing things down and appreciating things,
Speaker 1: but slow it down, capture the moment, and fully understand
Speaker 1: just how powerful you are. I mean when I think
Speaker 1: of my story, and I was powerful, I mean I
Speaker 1: could I could, you know, should I ask President Bush
Speaker 1: for a billion dollars for the n C I you know,
Speaker 1: I mean, that's who does that. I didn't know. I
Speaker 1: mean the power that I had and abused, I didn't
Speaker 1: know it. And it's a shame I'll never have that
Speaker 1: power again. UM. And I know that. I know that
Speaker 1: with certainty, and there is a part of me that
Speaker 1: that is extremely sad about that. But I can't change it. Um.
Speaker 1: But but I know now the power that I had
Speaker 1: and and that I abused, and so UM, that's that's
Speaker 1: that's a shame. You talked about all the people that
Speaker 1: come into your orbit and and that you've been lucky
Speaker 1: enough to to observe and get to know and and
Speaker 1: learn from. I mean, just the amount of wisdom, amount
Speaker 1: of talent, the amount of um kind of loo men
Speaker 1: as people that that kind of came through your orbit
Speaker 1: and that and that sometimes it was a blur or
Speaker 1: sometimes you didn't appreciate it. But do you sit back now,
Speaker 1: I mean, you've got a pretty impressive group of people
Speaker 1: that you can draw upon, that you continue to say,
Speaker 1: in touch with because of those days on the bike,
Speaker 1: in those days, UM as a symbol of cancer survivorship,
Speaker 1: I tell you, I And it's a great it's just
Speaker 1: great timing. Actually it's a great question. But it's also
Speaker 1: impeccable timing. I don't know. I was reading an article
Speaker 1: the other day about Steve Jobs and there was some mention,
Speaker 1: and I had spent time. I had shared space with
Speaker 1: Steve Jobs as he was not well, and I supposed
Speaker 1: he wanted to be with me because I was the
Speaker 1: cancer guy and he had his affinity for a second,
Speaker 1: but we we I shared space with this man, and
Speaker 1: it was it was super intense. I was super nervous,
Speaker 1: as you would be at Apple HQ and and and
Speaker 1: and I look back on that and I think, man,
Speaker 1: that was so. I I'm reading this article just last week,
Speaker 1: and there was something they had alluded to, a documentary
Speaker 1: called The Lost Interview. Have you have you seen? I
Speaker 1: heard of the Lost in so that it's from the interview,
Speaker 1: and and snippets of it were used more broadly, so
Speaker 1: some of the very small snippets. It's about an hour
Speaker 1: and fifteen minutes long. And after the stuff was that
Speaker 1: they lost the master tape and I want everybody listening
Speaker 1: to tonight to watch this documentary. So and he dies
Speaker 1: in two thousand eleven, and they find the tape in
Speaker 1: two thousand twelve, and they release it in its entirety
Speaker 1: now and I watched it three days ago. In two
Speaker 1: thousand twenty one, Steve Jobs did the interview heat perfectly
Speaker 1: predicts the future. You have to everybody listening must watch.
Speaker 1: It's on Apple TV and Amazon. I think he predicts Amazon,
Speaker 1: he predicts Facebook, he predicts Apple. Every thing it is
Speaker 1: one And so as I watched it, I was like,
Speaker 1: and it was. And then he talks a lot about
Speaker 1: the bike. He's clearly one of the smartest human beings
Speaker 1: that ever lived. It's called the Steve Jobs The Lost Interview.
Speaker 1: It's an hour and fifteen minutes long. It is so
Speaker 1: special and just watching this and going, man, I shared
Speaker 1: space with this guy, like I had no fucking idea,
Speaker 1: and and well you see stuff like that and you're
Speaker 1: just like, God, if you can't go back, and you can't.
Speaker 1: We can't bring him back to life. But hard, hard,
Speaker 1: very very hard for me to watch, but but also
Speaker 1: so incredible. Hard for me to watch because I knew
Speaker 1: the man and I and I don't get more time
Speaker 1: with him, and I perhaps didn't cherish it the way
Speaker 1: that I should have. But it it's it's it's one
Speaker 1: of the best things I've seen maybe forever. That's a
Speaker 1: strong endorsement. Will I will check it out. No, it's
Speaker 1: it's I'm not saying you're seeing jobs. But there might
Speaker 1: be people who say, hey, us and I shared space,
Speaker 1: really and so I'm strong. I got a chance to
Speaker 1: talk to him, I gained strength from him, and regardless
Speaker 1: of whatever happened and canceled or not, in their minds,
Speaker 1: you played a role in that. And there's there's plenty
Speaker 1: of people. Do you do you view that as an
Speaker 1: important part of your legacy, something palpable that that maybe
Speaker 1: you provided hope, strength belief in a moment for someone
Speaker 1: that that might have made a difference. Totally, yeah, I don't.
Speaker 1: I don't minimize that at all. I don't. UM. I'm
Speaker 1: aware of the stats. I'm aware of, you know, what
Speaker 1: lives Strong did. I'm aware of the amount of money
Speaker 1: we raised, the amount of lives we impacted. That's not
Speaker 1: lost on me. I I I think that stays in
Speaker 1: my chest, like that's I'm not giving that up. UM.
Speaker 1: I do a lot less of it now. UM, but
Speaker 1: I but I but to think the reality is I
Speaker 1: do it, and so I do virtually almost everything I'm
Speaker 1: asked to do. UM, It's on a much smaller level.
Speaker 1: But that's okay. You know, I when I look at
Speaker 1: you know, my score board up there, it's pretty good.
Speaker 1: And and if it's just a personal reach out once
Speaker 1: a day or once a week, hey, that's great. That's
Speaker 1: a win and and and um, and it still makes
Speaker 1: me feel special and and and hopefully it's uh it
Speaker 1: makes others feel special. But uh, it's just it's a
Speaker 1: different view, right, is what we've been talking about for
Speaker 1: an hour, Like it's just really understanding. Like I send
Speaker 1: somebody a letter in two thousand and five, Hey, get
Speaker 1: well soon, buddy. Yeah, I mean they loved it. Um,
Speaker 1: but when I and I did you a great thing
Speaker 1: is now you live in the society. You just you
Speaker 1: don't write them letters anymore. Grab your grab your phone.
Speaker 1: You make them a video. They're gonna lose the letter.
Speaker 1: They're gonna the video. Hey, they show all their buddies. Hey,
Speaker 1: look who sent me this, and they have it forever.
Speaker 1: And so I love just staring in the lens of that. Um.
Speaker 1: And just you know, I wish for my best Well,
Speaker 1: thanks for sharing on this lens. Uh for a last hour.
Speaker 1: It's been You've been generous, man. I you know, I
Speaker 1: when you know somebody really well and you've known him
Speaker 1: through all the chapters. Um, sometimes it doesn't flow. Sometimes
Speaker 1: you're not sure where this is going to go. Sometimes
Speaker 1: it could be a discomfort about taking into place. And
Speaker 1: and thanks for being so freaking honest and and and
Speaker 1: so generous. The only way to do it now, let's
Speaker 1: do it in person. Let's forget the lens and I'll
Speaker 1: I'll find each other in the mountains one of these years. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I just want to say to anybody listening, this
Speaker 1: man on the other end, your your host has been
Speaker 1: a one of the most amazing friends to me. And uh,
Speaker 1: you know it, Uh, it's sort of one of the
Speaker 1: greatest gifts. Ship goes down, people lean out, people leaning
Speaker 1: it breaks your heart when they lean out, the when
Speaker 1: they lean in, it's the greatest gift of all time.
Speaker 1: And this man, Chris Fowler, is one of those guys.
Speaker 1: And so there's and there's many many others. But it's
Speaker 1: also just such an educational journey and such just such
Speaker 1: a lesson And so Chris for that, thank you. Sorry
Speaker 1: to get emotional, um, but man, you've you've been there
Speaker 1: through thick and thin um and then by the way
Speaker 1: two times. And I haven't just put you through one
Speaker 1: ship show. I put you through too, because you were
Speaker 1: there when I was sick and then I had. Then
Speaker 1: I just doubled down and give you another one. But
Speaker 1: shows are always worth it. Loyal loyalty is the most
Speaker 1: powerful thing there is. We're both gonna get choked up
Speaker 1: an emotional the end of this. Oh my god, people
Speaker 1: listening there. I appreciate that. Powerful means a lot. Yeah,
Speaker 1: thanks pretty well for me. That was a conversation worth
Speaker 1: waiting for. I hope you enjoyed it. Landskips very few
Speaker 1: media interviews, has very few podcasts these days, so I'm
Speaker 1: grateful for his time, his candor, and his French It.
Speaker 1: Check out both of Lance's own podcasts, The Forward and
Speaker 1: The Move, which is a must for cycling fans. As always,
Speaker 1: appreciation to my co executive producer Jennifer Dempster and Jason
Speaker 1: Whitehell for his edny skills. All of us appreciate your feedback.
Speaker 1: Chris follower dot com is the website at Chris Foler
Speaker 1: on Instagram. If you have any comments, write you to
Speaker 1: subscribe and I'll talk to you soon.