1 00:00:13,760 --> 00:00:16,040 Speaker 1: Welcome to tech stuff. I'mos Valoshan, and this is the 2 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:19,000 Speaker 1: story today. I want to start with a clip from 3 00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:21,800 Speaker 1: a recent interview with Elon Musk. Five years from now, 4 00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:26,360 Speaker 1: my prediction is we will launch and be operating every 5 00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:29,960 Speaker 1: year more AI in space then m stand a cumulative 6 00:00:29,960 --> 00:00:32,800 Speaker 1: total on Earth. Five years from now, we'll have more 7 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:37,200 Speaker 1: AI in space than on Earth. On the face of it, 8 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:41,400 Speaker 1: it seems insane, but I recently met someone who painted 9 00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:46,599 Speaker 1: a compelling vision of humans as a spacefaring race, Aerial Ekplow. 10 00:00:47,200 --> 00:00:51,599 Speaker 1: She founded MIT Space Exploration Land. She's an inventor and 11 00:00:51,680 --> 00:00:56,560 Speaker 1: a space venture capital investor. Her signature project is self 12 00:00:56,600 --> 00:01:02,080 Speaker 1: assembling structures in space, essentially mag netic prefabs that drag 13 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:06,880 Speaker 1: themselves into the correct configuration by magnetic attraction after they've 14 00:01:06,880 --> 00:01:10,480 Speaker 1: been shot into space. The videos of this actually working, 15 00:01:10,959 --> 00:01:15,360 Speaker 1: albeit at small scale, are quite mind blowing. An Aeriel 16 00:01:15,440 --> 00:01:18,800 Speaker 1: is planning to use this technology to build livable structures 17 00:01:18,840 --> 00:01:21,360 Speaker 1: for humans in space. But I wanted to start with 18 00:01:21,360 --> 00:01:24,919 Speaker 1: the story of the hour data centers in space, which 19 00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:29,040 Speaker 1: it turns out Aeriel is already working on. I wanted 20 00:01:29,080 --> 00:01:32,399 Speaker 1: to know whether AI and space to obsess billionaires could 21 00:01:32,440 --> 00:01:35,920 Speaker 1: have the right idea, the computation will be more efficient 22 00:01:36,160 --> 00:01:38,800 Speaker 1: outside our atmosphere. Take a listen. 23 00:01:41,760 --> 00:01:43,559 Speaker 2: The first thing I think we should cover for data 24 00:01:43,560 --> 00:01:47,440 Speaker 2: centers is space is not called in the way that 25 00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:50,800 Speaker 2: people think in the context of oh, therefore it must 26 00:01:50,800 --> 00:01:54,360 Speaker 2: be easy to cool data center electronics of space. Unfortunately, 27 00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:57,800 Speaker 2: it's not that easy. In space. You don't have convective cooling. 28 00:01:58,280 --> 00:02:00,120 Speaker 2: So if you think about how data centers are cool 29 00:02:00,200 --> 00:02:03,840 Speaker 2: on Earth, you literally you flow water through something that's 30 00:02:03,920 --> 00:02:06,640 Speaker 2: touching close to the data center, or you flow air 31 00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:09,600 Speaker 2: through them, and it cools them down because that fluid 32 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:12,200 Speaker 2: passing by helps. 33 00:02:12,080 --> 00:02:12,880 Speaker 3: Distribute the heat. 34 00:02:12,960 --> 00:02:14,040 Speaker 1: It basically soaks up with the heat. 35 00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:14,800 Speaker 3: The heat. 36 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:18,640 Speaker 2: In space, there's no fluid and there's no air mass, 37 00:02:19,120 --> 00:02:22,760 Speaker 2: so you don't have the same mechanism of just having 38 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:25,960 Speaker 2: passive air or even pushed air to go through. Your 39 00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:30,400 Speaker 2: electronics mostly depend on radiative cooling, and that's hard. 40 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:32,600 Speaker 3: So it's not that it's better to. 41 00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:34,720 Speaker 2: Put data centers in space because space is going to 42 00:02:34,760 --> 00:02:35,320 Speaker 2: keep them cold. 43 00:02:35,400 --> 00:02:36,160 Speaker 3: That's not the case. 44 00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:40,480 Speaker 2: It's actually that if you're facing permitting issues on Earth 45 00:02:40,600 --> 00:02:43,239 Speaker 2: because of townships, you know, struggling with the water burden 46 00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:45,600 Speaker 2: or the grid burden, or you want to get the 47 00:02:45,600 --> 00:02:48,519 Speaker 2: carbon footprint of all of this energy from the data 48 00:02:48,520 --> 00:02:51,680 Speaker 2: centers off of Earth and into space. Space offers one 49 00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:57,640 Speaker 2: massive advantage, which is raw, unfiltered sunlight above the atmosphere, 50 00:02:57,680 --> 00:02:59,440 Speaker 2: so a much more efficient way to get closer to 51 00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:01,760 Speaker 2: that energy. Is it the simplest place to put a 52 00:03:01,840 --> 00:03:02,320 Speaker 2: data center? 53 00:03:02,480 --> 00:03:02,519 Speaker 1: No? 54 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:06,560 Speaker 2: Is it necessarily the most engineering efficient way? You know, 55 00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:09,040 Speaker 2: we could have a little argument about whether it is 56 00:03:09,160 --> 00:03:11,240 Speaker 2: or isn't. I think Elon is really arguing that it is. 57 00:03:11,560 --> 00:03:14,160 Speaker 2: There are certain aspects like radiative heat transfer that make 58 00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:16,400 Speaker 2: it difficult but not insurmountable. 59 00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:17,480 Speaker 3: So that's kind of where we are. 60 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:20,040 Speaker 2: That's my overview take on AI data centers, and we 61 00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:23,200 Speaker 2: are excited for a Rendezvrou robotics one of the spinouts 62 00:03:23,240 --> 00:03:26,720 Speaker 2: that works within our ecosystem to be part of building 63 00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:31,640 Speaker 2: the self assembly capability that makes it possible to construct 64 00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:32,840 Speaker 2: something that big in or a bit. 65 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:35,760 Speaker 1: So you've actually been working on this problem of data 66 00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:38,400 Speaker 1: centers in space before it became yes. 67 00:03:38,640 --> 00:03:42,560 Speaker 2: Yes, because the challenge is you can't fold up something 68 00:03:42,600 --> 00:03:45,120 Speaker 2: as big as a football field and put it into 69 00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:45,640 Speaker 2: a rocket. 70 00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:47,440 Speaker 3: That's how we do things now in space. 71 00:03:47,520 --> 00:03:51,640 Speaker 2: Right, James Web Space telescope absolutely exquisite. We fold it 72 00:03:51,720 --> 00:03:54,080 Speaker 2: up like a little toy, We squeeze it in a rocket, 73 00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:57,560 Speaker 2: which is a tiny tube. Even Starship is still small 74 00:03:57,600 --> 00:03:59,800 Speaker 2: by the comparison of what a football field would look like. 75 00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:02,520 Speaker 2: And then we try to get it to space. We 76 00:04:02,600 --> 00:04:06,880 Speaker 2: need modular tiles more like legos, think space legos, or 77 00:04:06,880 --> 00:04:09,840 Speaker 2: if you have kids listening to this podcast, magnetiles right. 78 00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:11,320 Speaker 3: It's a very popular toy these days. 79 00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:14,640 Speaker 2: That's the kind of modular building block that can be 80 00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:18,440 Speaker 2: packed flat in a rocket, much simpler and then self 81 00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:22,560 Speaker 2: assemble build by connecting those modules in space. I love magnets. 82 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:25,279 Speaker 2: That's our particular approach is to use magnetic field to 83 00:04:25,279 --> 00:04:27,799 Speaker 2: do it. And so yes, we've been working even before 84 00:04:27,839 --> 00:04:31,760 Speaker 2: AI data centers were a big topical obsession. We were 85 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:34,279 Speaker 2: working on what could be the infrastructure to support them. 86 00:04:34,720 --> 00:04:36,640 Speaker 1: What was the moment that's happened in the last three 87 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:39,080 Speaker 1: or four months where this went from something that you 88 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:41,080 Speaker 1: were working on but most people hadn't heard of, to 89 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:42,839 Speaker 1: something that everyone has an opinion about. 90 00:04:43,080 --> 00:04:45,919 Speaker 2: I think it's the incredible drive of capital behind AI, 91 00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:49,520 Speaker 2: the need to power the hyperscalers, the ability to really 92 00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:54,240 Speaker 2: serve this growth in this incredible emerging technology domain, and 93 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:57,760 Speaker 2: that is leading people to search for creative solutions for 94 00:04:57,880 --> 00:05:03,000 Speaker 2: where to cite energy heavy consumption data centers, and space 95 00:05:03,080 --> 00:05:04,480 Speaker 2: is one opportunity. 96 00:05:04,560 --> 00:05:07,240 Speaker 1: And on the space technology side, the main breakthrough has 97 00:05:07,279 --> 00:05:10,840 Speaker 1: been driving down cost of getting stuff into space exactly right. 98 00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:12,800 Speaker 2: So that's a huge that's a great point in that 99 00:05:12,920 --> 00:05:15,640 Speaker 2: Why are we considering space at all for this AI 100 00:05:15,680 --> 00:05:18,680 Speaker 2: data center play. It's because in the last fifteen years, 101 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:22,159 Speaker 2: the cost to get to space has dropped dramatically from 102 00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:25,839 Speaker 2: about fifty thousand US dollars per kilogram in the NASA 103 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:29,320 Speaker 2: Shuttle era, sometimes quoted even higher, to now a starship 104 00:05:29,560 --> 00:05:32,880 Speaker 2: coming online south of two hundred dollars at kilogram, which 105 00:05:32,920 --> 00:05:33,600 Speaker 2: is remarkable. 106 00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:34,799 Speaker 3: That's like FedEx. 107 00:05:35,360 --> 00:05:38,160 Speaker 2: If you can ship something around the world, you can 108 00:05:38,160 --> 00:05:40,559 Speaker 2: ship it to space. Now it's basically like cargo cost. 109 00:05:40,839 --> 00:05:46,080 Speaker 2: So that enables massive amounts of equipment like what would 110 00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:48,599 Speaker 2: be required for an AI data center to be feasibly 111 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:50,599 Speaker 2: shipped to space with a reasonable cost. 112 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:52,680 Speaker 1: And this happened because of Elon. 113 00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:53,480 Speaker 3: In many ways. 114 00:05:53,520 --> 00:05:56,760 Speaker 2: Yes, I mean he's really an incredible he in SpaceX, 115 00:05:57,000 --> 00:06:00,760 Speaker 2: an incredible driving force of this reduction and launch cost 116 00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:04,600 Speaker 2: because of the invention of reusable rockets. So you can 117 00:06:04,640 --> 00:06:07,479 Speaker 2: imagine how crazy it would be if you flew in 118 00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:09,680 Speaker 2: a seven five to seven or an air bus to 119 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:14,839 Speaker 2: Europe taken away, right, and so Elon realized this really 120 00:06:14,880 --> 00:06:17,600 Speaker 2: early on along with other companies like Blue Origin also 121 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:20,880 Speaker 2: have developed a reusable rocket craft that is really the 122 00:06:20,920 --> 00:06:25,360 Speaker 2: innovation in the space industry that has achieved these remarkable 123 00:06:25,480 --> 00:06:26,240 Speaker 2: dropping costs. 124 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:29,240 Speaker 1: You wear a lot of hats. You founded that the 125 00:06:29,320 --> 00:06:33,240 Speaker 1: MIT Space Exploration Initiative, you run a nonprofit and correct 126 00:06:33,240 --> 00:06:34,560 Speaker 1: me if I ge any of these wrong. Book a 127 00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:38,480 Speaker 1: nonprofit space architecture lab called Aurelia Institute, which has an 128 00:06:38,480 --> 00:06:42,240 Speaker 1: associated VC fund called the Foundry. Yes, then you have 129 00:06:42,279 --> 00:06:46,159 Speaker 1: a for profit space for robotics company called Rendezvous Robotics. Yes, 130 00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:48,720 Speaker 1: that's the one that was working with the Nvidia back 131 00:06:48,760 --> 00:06:51,480 Speaker 1: company star Cloud on the data centersance space. Is that 132 00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:53,159 Speaker 1: comprehensive or the other has as well? 133 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:54,640 Speaker 3: Yes, that is comprehensive. 134 00:06:54,680 --> 00:06:57,640 Speaker 2: But I will say the MIT Space Exploration Initiative, I 135 00:06:57,720 --> 00:07:01,080 Speaker 2: founded it, but we've had an amazing team being taking 136 00:07:01,080 --> 00:07:03,719 Speaker 2: it forward for the last few years. So my focus 137 00:07:03,800 --> 00:07:07,960 Speaker 2: is really on the Aurelia ecosystem. And that's the intersection 138 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:12,320 Speaker 2: of the nonprofit doing space for the public good big 139 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:15,720 Speaker 2: scale infrastructure, and the VC Fund, where we invest in 140 00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:19,920 Speaker 2: stuff that we spend out ourselves internally incubated companies like 141 00:07:19,960 --> 00:07:24,080 Speaker 2: Rendezvous Robotics, but we also invest in best in class 142 00:07:24,120 --> 00:07:28,920 Speaker 2: companies across the space industry like Stoke and Northwood and 143 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:31,280 Speaker 2: Turing on Space and Lamb Division and others. 144 00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:33,840 Speaker 1: And how do you spend your time? I mean, you've 145 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:38,120 Speaker 1: got fundraising, You've got capital deployment, you've got pr podcasts. 146 00:07:38,120 --> 00:07:41,880 Speaker 1: Do you still do science as well? And I do, yeah, chitecture. 147 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:43,720 Speaker 2: I mean I try to make sure that I spend 148 00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:46,080 Speaker 2: some time with my team on a regular basis at 149 00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:50,120 Speaker 2: our fabrication facility where we are designing the prototypes of 150 00:07:50,160 --> 00:07:54,440 Speaker 2: things like self assembling tiles. So the idea behind tess Ray, 151 00:07:54,680 --> 00:07:58,320 Speaker 2: which is my mitphd thesis, is you can design a 152 00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:02,240 Speaker 2: modular tile in our their shape like hexagons and pentagons, 153 00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:06,000 Speaker 2: put powerful little magnets on their edges, toss them up 154 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:09,400 Speaker 2: into space. When they're floating, the magnets pull them together. 155 00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:13,480 Speaker 2: So we work on iterative prototype development of that system. 156 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:17,080 Speaker 2: It's now being taken forward by Rendezvous Robotics, but we 157 00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:20,960 Speaker 2: have a collaboration where we are supporting their most recent 158 00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:23,240 Speaker 2: mission with NASA that's going to fly in July of 159 00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:26,240 Speaker 2: this year. It's still my passion is to really do 160 00:08:26,440 --> 00:08:30,160 Speaker 2: the technical work for space hardware that's actually really going 161 00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:32,400 Speaker 2: to fly, that's going to go orbital. So I would 162 00:08:32,400 --> 00:08:34,800 Speaker 2: not want my career to take me away from that entirely. 163 00:08:34,960 --> 00:08:36,480 Speaker 1: We'll put a link in the show notes. But there's 164 00:08:36,480 --> 00:08:42,360 Speaker 1: an amazing video like these tiles, which are basically hexagonal tiles. Yeah, 165 00:08:42,840 --> 00:08:44,240 Speaker 1: go to the International. 166 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:45,880 Speaker 3: Space Station, right, Yeah, they've gone twice. 167 00:08:45,760 --> 00:08:48,240 Speaker 1: And they sort of thrown in the air and like 168 00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:49,679 Speaker 1: a magic tree, or not thrown in the air, but 169 00:08:49,679 --> 00:08:52,120 Speaker 1: they're released, yes, and like a magic tree, they find 170 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:53,200 Speaker 1: each other and click together. 171 00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:53,760 Speaker 3: They do. 172 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:55,920 Speaker 2: I know it looks really wild when you're watching it 173 00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:59,040 Speaker 2: because it's so counterintuitive from our sense of how gravity 174 00:08:59,080 --> 00:09:02,240 Speaker 2: works on Earth. But when you're in zero G, when 175 00:09:02,240 --> 00:09:05,200 Speaker 2: you're in microgravity, because you're in free fall around a planet, 176 00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:08,320 Speaker 2: when you're inside that International Space Station, Yeah, the tiles 177 00:09:08,440 --> 00:09:11,880 Speaker 2: pop together. You just release them. They fly towards each 178 00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:16,600 Speaker 2: other kind of gingerly. The tiles themselves start turning to 179 00:09:16,679 --> 00:09:18,880 Speaker 2: fit perfectly, and it's almost like a little ballet. It's 180 00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:22,959 Speaker 2: like someone's orchestrating them to come together, but it's autonomous. 181 00:09:22,520 --> 00:09:24,400 Speaker 1: So they have some propulsional it's just. 182 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:26,880 Speaker 2: The magnets that pull them together. But once they come together, 183 00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:29,760 Speaker 2: there are little sensors that determine Hey, was that a 184 00:09:29,760 --> 00:09:31,400 Speaker 2: good neighbor or a bad neighbor? 185 00:09:31,600 --> 00:09:33,000 Speaker 1: Was this all your idea? And how do you come 186 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:33,400 Speaker 1: up with this? 187 00:09:33,840 --> 00:09:39,120 Speaker 2: I was inspired by a presentation that Nary Oxman gave 188 00:09:39,160 --> 00:09:41,200 Speaker 2: when I was at MIT. So Nary Oxman is just 189 00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:46,440 Speaker 2: this absolutely stunning, inspiring architect and designer, and she gave 190 00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:50,840 Speaker 2: a class called Design Across Scales and invited Scular Tippets 191 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:53,720 Speaker 2: from MIT to come. Skular Tippets runs the Self Assembly 192 00:09:53,800 --> 00:09:56,640 Speaker 2: Lab at MIT, and they were talking about self assembly 193 00:09:56,679 --> 00:09:58,960 Speaker 2: on Earth, and I knew I was sitting in this 194 00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:01,280 Speaker 2: audience thinking we should be doing this in space. 195 00:10:01,920 --> 00:10:03,280 Speaker 3: It's so much harder to do it on the. 196 00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:05,439 Speaker 2: Ground, which is what Skyler's lab was exploring in a 197 00:10:05,480 --> 00:10:07,720 Speaker 2: bunch of really cool ways. So I was very inspired. 198 00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:10,760 Speaker 2: That was twenty sixteen, so ten years ago. It was 199 00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:12,560 Speaker 2: one of the first classes I took at MIT. 200 00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:16,079 Speaker 1: At fast forward ten years and you're now working on 201 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:19,960 Speaker 1: a commercial application of that for a company back by Nvidia, 202 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:22,920 Speaker 1: which is the largest company on the ustop market. I think, 203 00:10:23,480 --> 00:10:24,320 Speaker 1: did you imagine that? 204 00:10:24,679 --> 00:10:27,920 Speaker 3: No? Yeah, it's been incredible. 205 00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:30,640 Speaker 2: I mean we're so happy we started ten years ago 206 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:33,800 Speaker 2: because now it's really it's so advantageous to have this 207 00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:37,160 Speaker 2: technology ready now when the industry is ready for something 208 00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:39,440 Speaker 2: really big like this with AI data centers. 209 00:10:39,160 --> 00:10:41,640 Speaker 1: Do you think that will be the commercial application that 210 00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:43,280 Speaker 1: makes this all real for you? 211 00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:43,880 Speaker 3: Yes? 212 00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:47,560 Speaker 2: I think some combination of AI data centers and tennis 213 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:53,200 Speaker 2: really large aperture arrays in orbit to improve the type 214 00:10:53,200 --> 00:10:56,080 Speaker 2: of wavelengths that you can get down to the ground basically, 215 00:10:56,160 --> 00:11:03,000 Speaker 2: so communications telecommunications. But my long term passion is habitats. 216 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:05,120 Speaker 2: Goal is exactly It's like, I really want the long 217 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:08,000 Speaker 2: term commercial success to be we are self assembling these 218 00:11:08,160 --> 00:11:10,679 Speaker 2: massive space habitats and putting. 219 00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:12,679 Speaker 1: People in them, and what will they do when they 220 00:11:12,679 --> 00:11:13,040 Speaker 1: get there? 221 00:11:13,920 --> 00:11:16,679 Speaker 2: In the next five years This is aggressive timeline to 222 00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:19,160 Speaker 2: hold myself to, but I think in the next five years, 223 00:11:19,160 --> 00:11:22,120 Speaker 2: maybe seven macs, we will try to put in orbit 224 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:26,280 Speaker 2: a space orbital biolab. So the first thing it'll be 225 00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:28,920 Speaker 2: a habitat it'll be crude. But the first thing that 226 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:31,719 Speaker 2: these humans are going to do is be scientists who 227 00:11:31,760 --> 00:11:35,480 Speaker 2: are doing tissue engineering in orbit. And the reason that's 228 00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:38,959 Speaker 2: so special is coming back to biology being so different 229 00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:43,400 Speaker 2: when you're floating. It turns out that things like artificial retinas. 230 00:11:43,640 --> 00:11:45,560 Speaker 2: If you tried to make an artificial retina on the 231 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:49,160 Speaker 2: ground here where we are today, gravity will cause these 232 00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:52,320 Speaker 2: delicate little layers that you have to do to sag. 233 00:11:52,920 --> 00:11:55,880 Speaker 2: But if you're floating in space, you can get a 234 00:11:55,960 --> 00:11:59,559 Speaker 2: near perfect matrix of those protein layers that make the 235 00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:03,400 Speaker 2: artificial reta. So we actually are leading the investment round 236 00:12:03,400 --> 00:12:06,920 Speaker 2: in a company called Lamb Division that is making artificial 237 00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:11,120 Speaker 2: retinas in space, bringing them back down to Earth and 238 00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:14,600 Speaker 2: they would cure right now they're looking at retinitis pigmentosa, 239 00:12:14,640 --> 00:12:18,760 Speaker 2: but there's also potential for macular degeneration, so literally something 240 00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:22,560 Speaker 2: from space addressing blindness, which is I think such a 241 00:12:22,760 --> 00:12:26,720 Speaker 2: powerful application of space. So it's not just ten patients 242 00:12:26,760 --> 00:12:28,760 Speaker 2: who get to restore their site, but it's you know, 243 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:31,160 Speaker 2: hundreds of thousands or millions. So that's one of the 244 00:12:31,160 --> 00:12:32,560 Speaker 2: reasons we want in orbit to buy all that. 245 00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:38,320 Speaker 1: So as a VC investor, you're better able in theory 246 00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:43,920 Speaker 1: to take macro bets based on the development and acceleration 247 00:12:43,960 --> 00:12:45,599 Speaker 1: of the technology that would allow something that is to 248 00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:46,720 Speaker 1: actually be commercialized. 249 00:12:46,880 --> 00:12:47,200 Speaker 3: Yes. 250 00:12:47,480 --> 00:12:49,480 Speaker 2: But the way that I explain why I got into 251 00:12:49,559 --> 00:12:51,320 Speaker 2: VC because I am a scientist, Like, why did I 252 00:12:51,320 --> 00:12:54,559 Speaker 2: decide I wanted to do VC investing? There are things 253 00:12:54,640 --> 00:12:57,360 Speaker 2: I know about in the space industry. Because I've done 254 00:12:57,640 --> 00:13:01,720 Speaker 2: one hundred payloads either two space to the International Space Station, 255 00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:04,280 Speaker 2: to the Moon or on zero gravity flights. I know 256 00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:07,040 Speaker 2: what's missing. I really intimately know what the pain points are. 257 00:13:07,360 --> 00:13:09,679 Speaker 2: And the example that I usually give people is if 258 00:13:09,679 --> 00:13:12,560 Speaker 2: you think about ocean freight on Earth, right, it's slow, 259 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:15,079 Speaker 2: but it's cheap and it's effective. It just gets you 260 00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:18,400 Speaker 2: across the world inside of the harbor. Once you get 261 00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:21,360 Speaker 2: to Oakland, there's a tug that moves you around where 262 00:13:21,360 --> 00:13:22,719 Speaker 2: you're supposed to go, and then there's a bunch of 263 00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:27,080 Speaker 2: last mile infrastructure. In space, we have the rockets now, 264 00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:29,680 Speaker 2: which is the ocean freight, But where are the space 265 00:13:29,760 --> 00:13:33,160 Speaker 2: tugs that are moving us in between orbits and doing 266 00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:35,800 Speaker 2: a bunch of kind of finer tune delivery. That's in 267 00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:39,480 Speaker 2: the space industry what we call otvs orbital transit vehicles. 268 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:42,520 Speaker 2: Someone is going to make a shit ton of money 269 00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:46,480 Speaker 2: doing otvs and we all know that, and sometimes people 270 00:13:46,520 --> 00:13:48,920 Speaker 2: outside of the space industry wouldn't know that. So that's 271 00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:53,000 Speaker 2: a great example of I think unusual information like useful 272 00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:56,480 Speaker 2: knowledge from being so intimately integrated into the space industry 273 00:13:56,480 --> 00:13:59,120 Speaker 2: that helps advise our strategy as VC. 274 00:13:59,040 --> 00:14:01,880 Speaker 1: Investors love affair with space lookin for you. 275 00:14:02,280 --> 00:14:04,440 Speaker 2: When I was a kid, I was growing up with 276 00:14:04,520 --> 00:14:08,000 Speaker 2: two Air Force pilot parents. So my dad was an 277 00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:09,920 Speaker 2: a ten fighter pilot. My mom is one of the 278 00:14:09,920 --> 00:14:12,400 Speaker 2: first women to get to fly in the United States 279 00:14:12,440 --> 00:14:16,560 Speaker 2: Air Force as a female pilot, and they raised my 280 00:14:16,679 --> 00:14:20,640 Speaker 2: brother and I to love science fiction. So they have 281 00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:23,560 Speaker 2: this service model of leadership in their mind from having 282 00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:26,720 Speaker 2: served the country. They love exploration and aviation, and then 283 00:14:26,760 --> 00:14:28,920 Speaker 2: they had us read all of the things that would 284 00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:31,080 Speaker 2: be the next chapter after that. So the joke is, 285 00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:33,640 Speaker 2: how do you surpass double pilot parents? 286 00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:36,880 Speaker 3: You got to go to space. That's the only thing left. 287 00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:40,760 Speaker 1: No pressure. Yes, were there a particular science fiction book 288 00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:44,680 Speaker 1: or movie author, short story that really gets the heart 289 00:14:44,720 --> 00:14:46,200 Speaker 1: of who you are today as a builder? 290 00:14:46,640 --> 00:14:52,000 Speaker 2: Yes, there are two related One is Ringworld an oldie 291 00:14:52,040 --> 00:14:57,840 Speaker 2: but goody Larry Niven really stunning grand space architecture idea. 292 00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:01,040 Speaker 2: How do you build a ring world, something that is 293 00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:04,120 Speaker 2: a ring at the scale of a planet. This is 294 00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:07,560 Speaker 2: now something that is coming into the window with feasibility 295 00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:10,160 Speaker 2: because it's not really an open science question anymore. 296 00:15:10,600 --> 00:15:11,400 Speaker 3: It's a question of. 297 00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:15,720 Speaker 2: Engineering, willpower and funding, and the space industry is starting 298 00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:18,400 Speaker 2: to converge around and in space economy that can make 299 00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:22,440 Speaker 2: things like this feasible in the next few decades. That's 300 00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:25,280 Speaker 2: something that has just continued to inspire me profoundly. And 301 00:15:25,320 --> 00:15:27,920 Speaker 2: then the other one is much more modern, is Neil 302 00:15:27,960 --> 00:15:31,280 Speaker 2: Stevenson's Seven Eves, And one of the things I loved 303 00:15:31,280 --> 00:15:34,760 Speaker 2: in that book is that he envisions swarms of little 304 00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:39,680 Speaker 2: bio inspired robots that have various critical functionalities for the 305 00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:43,280 Speaker 2: space mission. So we built a swarm robot that we 306 00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:46,040 Speaker 2: call astra Ant, an adorable little car the size of 307 00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:49,080 Speaker 2: my thumb, and we sent it to the Moon last 308 00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:52,520 Speaker 2: spring on my team. So it has sensors all over 309 00:15:52,560 --> 00:15:55,640 Speaker 2: the car so it can pick up temperature, can do 310 00:15:55,800 --> 00:15:58,640 Speaker 2: a camera payload, and do imaging on the Moon for 311 00:15:58,680 --> 00:16:01,080 Speaker 2: future iterations. The first one we sent was very simple, 312 00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:03,680 Speaker 2: but we're super excited now that we've developed the Astra 313 00:16:03,760 --> 00:16:05,560 Speaker 2: and we know it made it safely to the Moon. 314 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:08,600 Speaker 2: Now we want to do a swarm deployment of these 315 00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:12,000 Speaker 2: little robots for inspection, diagnostic, and servicing. 316 00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:16,080 Speaker 1: Read out Brigotti, who writes the seven full newsletter about technology, 317 00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:18,960 Speaker 1: which I very much enjoy as do. I said something 318 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:24,960 Speaker 1: about the SpaceX XAI combo basically like, yes, it's about 319 00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:28,160 Speaker 1: driving down costs to get rockets into space. Yes, but 320 00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:30,480 Speaker 1: it's also very much about robots. And you can't understand 321 00:16:30,520 --> 00:16:31,920 Speaker 1: this story withou understanding robots. 322 00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:35,720 Speaker 2: Yes, that's so true, because I focus my life's work 323 00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:37,000 Speaker 2: around space architecture. 324 00:16:37,040 --> 00:16:39,880 Speaker 3: I really do deeply believe why humans need to go. 325 00:16:40,280 --> 00:16:42,160 Speaker 2: But that's not to say that they're not, you know, 326 00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:44,800 Speaker 2: profoundly supported by robots. 327 00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:46,960 Speaker 1: Why is it important for humans to go to space? 328 00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:49,600 Speaker 2: So I have kind of a three part answer to this. 329 00:16:50,280 --> 00:16:54,600 Speaker 2: The first is just tactical, which is we learn so 330 00:16:54,840 --> 00:16:58,040 Speaker 2: much by going into space as humans that helps us 331 00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:01,080 Speaker 2: do spinoff technologies for life on Earth. So there's a 332 00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:04,680 Speaker 2: huge history of NASA, you know, kevlar microwaves, some people say, 333 00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:07,280 Speaker 2: even laser Guy's surgery. In some part from the Shuttle program, 334 00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:11,760 Speaker 2: So that's very tactical. The second is more strategic. 335 00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:14,600 Speaker 1: So the first is a playback, use you learned something 336 00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:15,439 Speaker 1: along the way. 337 00:17:15,359 --> 00:17:17,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, you learned something along the way that you wouldn't 338 00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:19,040 Speaker 2: have learned if you didn't send a human right. The 339 00:17:19,080 --> 00:17:22,760 Speaker 2: second is strategic, which is, we need to go to space, 340 00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:25,879 Speaker 2: and we can absolutely use probes and you know, Mars 341 00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:29,119 Speaker 2: rovers and Venus flybys and things to do this. But 342 00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:31,879 Speaker 2: there's the more that we learn about, especially the near 343 00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:35,960 Speaker 2: neighborhood of our solar system, the more we understand about 344 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:39,680 Speaker 2: Earth's longevity and how to plan for planetary health as 345 00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:42,920 Speaker 2: a system. So a great example of this is when 346 00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:46,280 Speaker 2: Apollo eight in nineteen I think it was nineteen sixty eight, 347 00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:49,800 Speaker 2: on Christmas Eve, flew around the Moon for the first time, 348 00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:53,480 Speaker 2: took a photo of the Earth rising above the moon, 349 00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:56,240 Speaker 2: earth rise, the opposite of moon rise that we see 350 00:17:56,240 --> 00:18:00,520 Speaker 2: on the Earth, and that image called earth Rise the 351 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:04,560 Speaker 2: environmental movement in the United States. So that's an example 352 00:18:04,600 --> 00:18:09,919 Speaker 2: of space exploration when humans are involved expanding our concentric 353 00:18:10,040 --> 00:18:13,520 Speaker 2: circles of awareness as a species, and why it's kind 354 00:18:13,560 --> 00:18:16,040 Speaker 2: of so important for us as a civilization to push 355 00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:18,600 Speaker 2: out with human life in addition to to robots. I 356 00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:20,720 Speaker 2: don't think we'd be very satisfied as a species just 357 00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:25,760 Speaker 2: doing teleoperation and VR headset viewing of some robots. 358 00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:26,119 Speaker 3: Life on Mars. 359 00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:28,800 Speaker 2: Right, we are a species that loves knowledge. For the 360 00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:30,040 Speaker 2: sake of knowledge, we need to go. 361 00:18:30,320 --> 00:18:32,359 Speaker 1: That was in ninety sixty eight you mentioned, Yes, is 362 00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:34,040 Speaker 1: it called the overview effect? 363 00:18:34,080 --> 00:18:36,600 Speaker 2: Is it we now have so the image was called 364 00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:39,440 Speaker 2: earth Rise. But exactly what you're hitting on this notion 365 00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:42,440 Speaker 2: of seeing the Earth from space is that is known 366 00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:46,560 Speaker 2: as the overview effect, and it famously leads trained military 367 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:51,160 Speaker 2: men to cry when you're in the vacuum, void darkness 368 00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:54,720 Speaker 2: of space and you look down from your precarious position 369 00:18:55,359 --> 00:18:59,240 Speaker 2: onto this really delicate, beautiful blue marble of a planet. 370 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:02,640 Speaker 2: You know, Holy cow, this is really something worthy of protecting. 371 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:03,840 Speaker 3: And I think we. 372 00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:07,600 Speaker 2: Can use space exploration both in the science fiction notion 373 00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:10,320 Speaker 2: of let's go figure out how to live elsewhere, but 374 00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:12,720 Speaker 2: we can also use space exploration in the concept of 375 00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:16,080 Speaker 2: what we're doing at Aurelia Institute, which is space for 376 00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:19,600 Speaker 2: the public good. Do space infrastructure in lower th orbit, 377 00:19:19,920 --> 00:19:23,800 Speaker 2: like AI data centers, space based solar power, my current 378 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:27,040 Speaker 2: you know, kind of flagship project, which is our orbital biolab. 379 00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:30,679 Speaker 2: Do therapeutics and bioscience that you can only do when 380 00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:32,919 Speaker 2: you're floating that you can't do on the ground. Do 381 00:19:33,080 --> 00:19:35,439 Speaker 2: that kind of stuff in space for the good of 382 00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:36,120 Speaker 2: life on Earth. 383 00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:38,440 Speaker 1: What's the third one? That was the third one? 384 00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:40,080 Speaker 3: That's the third one? Yeah, that's orbital biolabs. 385 00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:43,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, things like AI data centers, space based solar power 386 00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:45,359 Speaker 2: and an orbital biolab. And that I think is what 387 00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:47,920 Speaker 2: I try to reflect in my own work, which is 388 00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:52,040 Speaker 2: think of it as really hard science science fiction. So 389 00:19:52,359 --> 00:19:56,040 Speaker 2: we are grounded in a bunch of pragmatic near term things. 390 00:19:56,480 --> 00:19:58,679 Speaker 2: I'm investing in a bunch of near term companies that 391 00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:02,480 Speaker 2: I've done my best to honestly credibly convinced my LPs 392 00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:05,560 Speaker 2: will give returns for an ROI focused venture fund in 393 00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:10,080 Speaker 2: the next seven years. But also what are we aimed at? 394 00:20:10,359 --> 00:20:12,560 Speaker 2: And I sometimes think that tech investing needs a little 395 00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:16,840 Speaker 2: bit more of a moral grounding or a grand aspirational grounding. 396 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:17,680 Speaker 3: What do you aimed at? 397 00:20:17,920 --> 00:20:20,520 Speaker 2: What's the big picture why of why you're putting all 398 00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:22,680 Speaker 2: this money into stuff? And for me, that is where 399 00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:26,919 Speaker 2: the dreamier large scale vision comes to which is the 400 00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:30,520 Speaker 2: benefit of humanity, expanding humanity horizons and making us a 401 00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:31,960 Speaker 2: space faring species. 402 00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:39,240 Speaker 1: After the break, the environmental costs of commercializing space and 403 00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:46,200 Speaker 1: how a space pac man might help stay with us. 404 00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:52,600 Speaker 1: How do you think about the cost? I mean, Elon 405 00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:55,840 Speaker 1: has talked about ten thousand launches a year, which I 406 00:20:55,840 --> 00:20:57,520 Speaker 1: think will be one an hour, and that's a lot 407 00:20:57,560 --> 00:21:00,800 Speaker 1: of a lot of gas and a lot of space. 408 00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:04,399 Speaker 1: Do all those ones come back at least is debris? Debris? 409 00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:07,960 Speaker 1: How do you think about the environmental cost of these dreams? 410 00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:10,280 Speaker 2: This I think is a critically important topic to try 411 00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:14,560 Speaker 2: to figure out now. So currently the space industry does 412 00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:17,400 Speaker 2: not have anywhere near the carbon footprint of say aviation, 413 00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:21,760 Speaker 2: but if we succeed in getting to that ten thousand number, 414 00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:25,280 Speaker 2: we absolutely would and maybe have even a more vast impact. 415 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:29,600 Speaker 2: So there are really important, interesting endeavors to get out 416 00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:33,520 Speaker 2: of this paradigm of chemical rocket propulsion as the only 417 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:35,800 Speaker 2: way to get mass to orbit. And I do think 418 00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:37,520 Speaker 2: that that's really important is we need to do that 419 00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:40,919 Speaker 2: research now so that we have a better base on 420 00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:43,600 Speaker 2: which to stand for this growth that's coming in the industry. 421 00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:46,119 Speaker 2: But I do think people who are saying, you know 422 00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:49,560 Speaker 2: right now, oh oh dear, what is the space industry doing. 423 00:21:49,560 --> 00:21:52,679 Speaker 2: Our carbon footprint is quite small compared to aviation, so 424 00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:55,399 Speaker 2: we have that responsibility to take it seriously and innovate 425 00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:56,360 Speaker 2: it around it now. 426 00:21:56,440 --> 00:22:00,159 Speaker 1: And does a debris pose a medium term risk? I mean, yeah, so. 427 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:02,719 Speaker 3: You're talking about the debris in orbit like space degree problem. 428 00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:03,760 Speaker 3: It certainly is. 429 00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:07,359 Speaker 2: The diagrams that people may have seen on the news 430 00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:10,680 Speaker 2: are a little bit misleading because space is so vast. 431 00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:13,000 Speaker 2: When you make adot the size of a period on 432 00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:15,560 Speaker 2: a picture to try to indicate where the debris is 433 00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:19,240 Speaker 2: in orbit, you are marking out so much space that 434 00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:21,840 Speaker 2: it's not like the It's not as crowded or as 435 00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:24,320 Speaker 2: fuzzy as it looks on these images that people see 436 00:22:24,359 --> 00:22:27,159 Speaker 2: online that are depicting the space debris. But it is 437 00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:30,120 Speaker 2: serious enough that sometimes the International Space Station has had 438 00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:33,760 Speaker 2: to boost itself to avoid space debris or launch timing 439 00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:36,560 Speaker 2: is changed. Because we're tracking the debris, we have a 440 00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:37,760 Speaker 2: pretty good sense of where it is. 441 00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:39,280 Speaker 3: But yeah, it's serious. 442 00:22:39,359 --> 00:22:41,600 Speaker 2: We sometimes see missions that have to plan around it, 443 00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:43,520 Speaker 2: and I think one of the best things that we 444 00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:45,399 Speaker 2: could do is active remediation. 445 00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:48,000 Speaker 3: So ESA is really motivated. 446 00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:51,200 Speaker 2: The European Space Agency has some great programs around debris 447 00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:56,159 Speaker 2: removal companies like Astroscale or planning interesting capability. One of 448 00:22:56,240 --> 00:22:58,600 Speaker 2: my favorite ideas is to basically have a space pac 449 00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:02,879 Speaker 2: Man that goes out and you know, metaphorically eats, but 450 00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:06,440 Speaker 2: really just collects a big ball of debris until there's 451 00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:10,480 Speaker 2: enough mass in that aggregate that it starts to be 452 00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:13,520 Speaker 2: dragged down in orbit a little bit lower in altitude, 453 00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:15,880 Speaker 2: and then it hits the atmosphere, hits drag and then 454 00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:18,720 Speaker 2: burns up on reentry. So it's like a trash collector 455 00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:21,560 Speaker 2: for space, little pac Man. So and not to end 456 00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:24,000 Speaker 2: on a lighthearted note for a very serious problem, but yes, 457 00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:26,159 Speaker 2: I do think that space debris is something to contend 458 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:29,000 Speaker 2: with and there are a lot of interesting endeavors that 459 00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:30,000 Speaker 2: are looking at that Right now. 460 00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:30,879 Speaker 3: To remediate I. 461 00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:33,040 Speaker 1: Want to understand a little bit more about your vision 462 00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:36,240 Speaker 1: for space habitats, and one of the things I was 463 00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:39,639 Speaker 1: very intrigued by is that you asked a lot of 464 00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:42,199 Speaker 1: astronauts what their experience of space was like and how 465 00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:44,600 Speaker 1: it could be better. Yes, what did you learn from 466 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:45,400 Speaker 1: those conversations? 467 00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:49,240 Speaker 2: So this is credit to my amazing co founder, Sana Sharma, 468 00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:51,159 Speaker 2: who was a friend of mine in undergrad at Yale 469 00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:55,040 Speaker 2: and then is an amazing designer. She has run this 470 00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:57,040 Speaker 2: astronaut ethnography program. 471 00:23:57,160 --> 00:23:57,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, three MD. 472 00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:00,480 Speaker 2: What an incredible privilege, we know, we have to be 473 00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:02,239 Speaker 2: an MIT and get the chance to talk to so 474 00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:06,560 Speaker 2: many astronauts. And she interviewed astronauts from around the world, 475 00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:10,720 Speaker 2: so not just NASA astronauts, but you know, from different nationalities, 476 00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:16,240 Speaker 2: from private spaceflight participants who are not government agency trained astronauts, 477 00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:20,080 Speaker 2: but as individuals who went and she asked them questions 478 00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:23,639 Speaker 2: that they either don't get asked by NASA when they're debriefed, 479 00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:26,120 Speaker 2: or they get asked by NASA but are never made public, 480 00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:29,200 Speaker 2: which are things like what is the most uncomfortable part 481 00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:32,440 Speaker 2: of living in space? What was the most disgusting experience 482 00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:36,080 Speaker 2: that you had, What was the most profound, beautiful, heart 483 00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:40,160 Speaker 2: you know, expanding experience that you had. And in particular, 484 00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:44,280 Speaker 2: she focused in on comfort and care, which is something 485 00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:47,439 Speaker 2: that is not a combination often considered in today's space 486 00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:54,440 Speaker 2: habitats because they're mostly occupied by unbelievably qualified, diligent, disciplined 487 00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:57,200 Speaker 2: individuals top you know, points zervisors or a one percent 488 00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:00,840 Speaker 2: of human talent. If we're going to start well more 489 00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:05,719 Speaker 2: people into the space industry, into our Aurelia Tessay space habitats, 490 00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:09,680 Speaker 2: we have to design the interiors so that they're delightful 491 00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:11,960 Speaker 2: and that they don't just look like a science lab. 492 00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:14,320 Speaker 2: One of Sauna's favorite quotes from her program is that 493 00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:17,480 Speaker 2: an astronaut said, life in space on the International Space 494 00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:19,680 Speaker 2: Station is like sleeping under your desk in the lab. 495 00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:22,920 Speaker 2: You know, like that, and it's amazing. Many people would 496 00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:24,600 Speaker 2: give up their whole career to get to go do that. 497 00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:27,399 Speaker 2: But it doesn't work for everybody, and we want space 498 00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:30,560 Speaker 2: to work for everybody as much as we can. Right 499 00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:32,560 Speaker 2: people often ask, oh, what if you have health issues, 500 00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:34,760 Speaker 2: can you still go to space? Actually, many more health 501 00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:36,919 Speaker 2: issues than you might think. You can absolutely still go 502 00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:39,000 Speaker 2: to space. We just wouldn't put you in a position 503 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:41,200 Speaker 2: where you're going to be there for six months or 504 00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:44,199 Speaker 2: a year. And Sauna's work, I think has really profoundly 505 00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:50,120 Speaker 2: inspired and informed how we think about interior design, architecture, 506 00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:53,240 Speaker 2: and comfort and care in those next generation habitats that 507 00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:53,840 Speaker 2: we're building. 508 00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:56,320 Speaker 1: It's pretty interesting because there was a New York Times 509 00:25:56,320 --> 00:26:00,359 Speaker 1: magazine story last year that I was fascinated by about 510 00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:06,320 Speaker 1: this fake Moon surface or no Mars surface called Mars Asterisk, 511 00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:09,159 Speaker 1: And basically they recruited all these people to go and 512 00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:12,200 Speaker 1: live on Mars in an analog in an analog for 513 00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:14,720 Speaker 1: like five hundred days. And the article was basically about 514 00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:18,520 Speaker 1: how the experiment was essentially designed to psychologically torture the 515 00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:20,600 Speaker 1: people and see how much they could withstand it. There 516 00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:23,119 Speaker 1: was no like, there's nothing beyond that really inherent in 517 00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:26,480 Speaker 1: the expedition, and I found it quite kind of depressing, 518 00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:29,399 Speaker 1: honestly to read. So it'sic. It's actually nice to hear 519 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:32,600 Speaker 1: an alternative vision that space could be fun than whimsical 520 00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:34,200 Speaker 1: and comfortable. 521 00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:35,879 Speaker 3: And comfortable and empowering. 522 00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:38,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, when you go again, we're standing on the shoulders 523 00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:40,679 Speaker 2: of giants here because we have to make it safe 524 00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:41,640 Speaker 2: first and foremost. 525 00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:43,560 Speaker 3: That unlocks the ability. 526 00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:45,480 Speaker 2: To then think about what if you didn't just have 527 00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:48,399 Speaker 2: to survive in space, but you could thrive in space. 528 00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:52,719 Speaker 2: And we've built a nearly thirty foot markup of our 529 00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:55,800 Speaker 2: Tessa Ray space habitat. We've exhibited it around a ted 530 00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:58,760 Speaker 2: To Seattle Museum of Flight. When you walk into it, 531 00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:02,120 Speaker 2: we have things like a zero gravity kitchen, What does 532 00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:06,160 Speaker 2: it mean to do fermentation like sour dough or kimchi bubbling? 533 00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:06,800 Speaker 3: In space? 534 00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:11,679 Speaker 2: We have an algae stained glass window. The algae is 535 00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:14,720 Speaker 2: inside of these panels where it gets some light from 536 00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:18,560 Speaker 2: the outside, so you can actually grow the algae like cyanobacteria, 537 00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:23,000 Speaker 2: and then have the algae, in partnership with the bacteria 538 00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:27,119 Speaker 2: produce something useful for the habitat, like oxygen, and that 539 00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:30,560 Speaker 2: would supplement the life support system. So it's both pragmatic 540 00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:35,160 Speaker 2: and functional, but also hopefully beautiful and stunning. 541 00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:39,720 Speaker 1: So take me from where we are today to people 542 00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:43,280 Speaker 1: being inside these environments in space. Well, maybe take me 543 00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:45,760 Speaker 1: back from people being in the environers in space to 544 00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:48,000 Speaker 1: where we are today, because here are some of the 545 00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:50,560 Speaker 1: problems that come to mind. Or I guess. Scale is 546 00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:56,120 Speaker 1: one thing, I guess, the reliability of the parts connecting 547 00:27:56,160 --> 00:28:00,760 Speaker 1: successfully is one thing. I guess, the maintenance is another yep. 548 00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:02,720 Speaker 1: And the challenge of getting people to and from that's 549 00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:05,159 Speaker 1: already been solved. Essentially is the same docking technology you've 550 00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:06,560 Speaker 1: used on the Percise. 551 00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:10,040 Speaker 2: Well, actually some combination of ISS and SpaceX. So we 552 00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:13,159 Speaker 2: will try to be as agnostic as possible. We are 553 00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:15,280 Speaker 2: going to have to pick a standard. But exactly to 554 00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:17,800 Speaker 2: your point, we are lucky in that we're not having 555 00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:20,880 Speaker 2: to be the rocket transportation. We're gonna, you know, leverage 556 00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:23,280 Speaker 2: the SpaceX delivery or other companies that'll be able to 557 00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:26,200 Speaker 2: come and dock. And I do think for that five 558 00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:28,440 Speaker 2: year timeframe that I gave you five to seven years 559 00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:31,439 Speaker 2: for an orbital bio lab, most likely that will be 560 00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:35,960 Speaker 2: us self assembling this module and attaching it to one 561 00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:39,640 Speaker 2: of the commercial space stations that are getting built that 562 00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:41,800 Speaker 2: not very many people know about. More people should know 563 00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:45,200 Speaker 2: about these that will be the replacement to the International 564 00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:48,280 Speaker 2: Space Station. So the ISS has been up since the 565 00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:50,440 Speaker 2: I think it was like maybe completed the design in 566 00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:53,680 Speaker 2: nineteen ninety eight, flew in early two thousand, so over 567 00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:54,480 Speaker 2: twenty years. 568 00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:55,280 Speaker 3: It's old. 569 00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:58,200 Speaker 2: It's like any home. It really desperately needs a reno. 570 00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:00,680 Speaker 2: And what NASA has decided is that we're going to 571 00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:05,200 Speaker 2: decommission the International Space Station. NASA has been incentivizing a 572 00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:09,160 Speaker 2: range of for profit companies to build their own commercial 573 00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:12,600 Speaker 2: space stations in orbit. They will be basically the follow 574 00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:14,960 Speaker 2: on to the ISS, and then we would like to 575 00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:19,800 Speaker 2: assemble and then attach our tests array self assembling module 576 00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:22,160 Speaker 2: if it's an normal to biolab attach it to one 577 00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:27,440 Speaker 2: of these providers like Axiom or Vast or Voyager star Lab, 578 00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:31,000 Speaker 2: who are going to be these next future commercial space stations. 579 00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:34,440 Speaker 1: Do you have absolute confidence that you will go to 580 00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:38,960 Speaker 1: space in one of your tessay assembled domes? 581 00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:42,680 Speaker 2: I better, Yes, I think I certainly have the courage 582 00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:45,440 Speaker 2: and the desire to go. I think there's nothing worse 583 00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:48,520 Speaker 2: than an architect that doesn't live and inhabit their own space. 584 00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:51,200 Speaker 2: So yes, I do think I'm bullish on the fact 585 00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:54,560 Speaker 2: that in my lifetime I will get a chance to 586 00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:58,240 Speaker 2: build one of these designs to human occupancy rating and 587 00:29:58,440 --> 00:29:59,480 Speaker 2: hopefully go myself. 588 00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:02,000 Speaker 1: Yes, just before we close. And I know this idea 589 00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:06,040 Speaker 1: of democratizing space is something which is motivating for you. 590 00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:06,480 Speaker 3: Yes. 591 00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:10,800 Speaker 1: On the other hand, many people feel like space is 592 00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:14,920 Speaker 1: becoming more of a colonial environment than a democratic environment, 593 00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:18,520 Speaker 1: whether it's you know, obviously US China space conflict, or 594 00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:23,000 Speaker 1: you know Elon and Jeff Bezos who are seen by 595 00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:26,280 Speaker 1: many as oligarchs who are trying to do a land 596 00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:30,160 Speaker 1: grab in space. And so those are people who you 597 00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:33,520 Speaker 1: work with, either directly or indirectly, whose platform technologies enabled 598 00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:36,240 Speaker 1: what you're doing, but his goals may not be the 599 00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:37,880 Speaker 1: same as yours. 600 00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:41,280 Speaker 2: Such a point, I would say, I'm actually really grateful 601 00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:44,120 Speaker 2: to SpaceX and Blue Origin for what they're doing. I 602 00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:46,080 Speaker 2: don't view it so much as oligarchs as I view 603 00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:50,320 Speaker 2: it as it's like the beginning of commercial air travel 604 00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:54,320 Speaker 2: in the nineteen forties and fifties, where initially it was 605 00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:58,920 Speaker 2: a very expensive only military activity. Then it became a 606 00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:01,840 Speaker 2: commercial activity, but it was a luxury activity, and then 607 00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:04,840 Speaker 2: over time the costs dropped and it became this incredibly 608 00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:09,160 Speaker 2: empowering opportunity where you and I as not particularly crazy 609 00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:11,200 Speaker 2: fancy people get to hop on a plane goal around 610 00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:11,560 Speaker 2: the world. 611 00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:15,560 Speaker 3: That is the progression that Elon and really. 612 00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:17,320 Speaker 2: To give credit to Gwen shot well as well at 613 00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:20,720 Speaker 2: SpaceX and Blue Origin and Bezos and many other companies. 614 00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:22,560 Speaker 3: That's what they're trying to achieve. 615 00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:25,680 Speaker 2: And I think the media has hit on this notion 616 00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:28,239 Speaker 2: of oh, it's just the high net worth individuals going 617 00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:31,240 Speaker 2: to space, because they cover Richard Branson going and Bezos going. 618 00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:35,479 Speaker 2: But these gentlemen and their companies, if their companies are 619 00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:39,040 Speaker 2: going to succeed, they have to scale to democratize access 620 00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:41,240 Speaker 2: to space. That's where the customers really come from. So 621 00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:44,320 Speaker 2: I think in the long term their incentives are aligned 622 00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:46,360 Speaker 2: with one of my goals, which is how do we 623 00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:50,200 Speaker 2: democratize access to space for my other mission elements in 624 00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:53,240 Speaker 2: the nonprofit where we want to think about are we 625 00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:56,320 Speaker 2: being good stewards of the space commons, How can we 626 00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:58,680 Speaker 2: make sure that we don't contribute to space debris, How 627 00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:01,400 Speaker 2: can we be a little thoughtful about precedent setting on 628 00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:05,560 Speaker 2: the Moon, maybe avoiding strict ownership and competition and potential 629 00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:08,600 Speaker 2: geopolitical conflict. I think that there is a role for 630 00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:11,920 Speaker 2: a nonprofit like us to do interesting thought leadership, to 631 00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:15,160 Speaker 2: try to shape the future of space, to be principled 632 00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:20,360 Speaker 2: and inclusive and exciting, so that more people like my dad. 633 00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:22,800 Speaker 2: My dad was born in the fifties. He when he 634 00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:25,520 Speaker 2: was a kid, saw the Moon landing and was convinced 635 00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:28,160 Speaker 2: than in his lifetime he would get to go. We 636 00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:30,640 Speaker 2: had this interregnum where because we lost funding with the 637 00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:33,480 Speaker 2: Cold War, we stopped investing in space as heavily. This 638 00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:36,360 Speaker 2: time I think will be profoundly different because we have 639 00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:39,680 Speaker 2: an economy that's fueled by these companies that you mentioned, 640 00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:43,360 Speaker 2: making it possible for truly like if there are people 641 00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:46,360 Speaker 2: listening to this podcast that have kids, for your kids 642 00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:50,400 Speaker 2: to commute to space for work in the next ten years. 643 00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:54,360 Speaker 1: Just to press you, there is also a darker potentiality, right, 644 00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:57,000 Speaker 1: And going back to our friend read Albergotti, he wrote 645 00:32:57,000 --> 00:33:00,160 Speaker 1: in his that news letter the nineteen sixty seven how 646 00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:03,240 Speaker 1: to Space Treaty make space subject international law, but in 647 00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:06,200 Speaker 1: more recent US law allows companies to keep what they mind. 648 00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:08,040 Speaker 3: Out there artmiss records, yep, and. 649 00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:10,160 Speaker 1: Will eventually it will mean a borderless internet and an 650 00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:12,640 Speaker 1: industrial supply chain that is beyond the reach or control 651 00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:16,520 Speaker 1: of any country. Science fiction has plenty of warnings for 652 00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:18,240 Speaker 1: what these companies might look like. 653 00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:19,680 Speaker 3: Yes, that's true. 654 00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:22,560 Speaker 2: One of the things we're we've thought about in the 655 00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:25,360 Speaker 2: context of policy for the Moon, for example, is how 656 00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:29,040 Speaker 2: do we avoid a mill town and the exploitativeness of 657 00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:31,040 Speaker 2: a mill town. So if you remember milltown's where the 658 00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:36,160 Speaker 2: company store basically owns all of the employees and they're exploitative, 659 00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:38,720 Speaker 2: it's hard for them to leave. You can imagine some 660 00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:42,360 Speaker 2: company operating on the Moon decides that they own your 661 00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:45,280 Speaker 2: air because they transported you there as an employee, and 662 00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:46,960 Speaker 2: you can't just walk outside and go home. 663 00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:48,640 Speaker 3: You'd have to be dependent on them to get back 664 00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:49,000 Speaker 3: to Earth. 665 00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:52,000 Speaker 2: There's all these different potentials that you know, the Summer 666 00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:55,320 Speaker 2: four article and comment hits on, and I think one 667 00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:58,760 Speaker 2: of the jobs of creators of this technology like us, 668 00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:04,920 Speaker 2: is to say, let's work on some combination of technological 669 00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:07,400 Speaker 2: solutions that mitigate some of the risks like space debris 670 00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:10,520 Speaker 2: or green propulsion for the carbon footprint. Let's also work 671 00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:15,800 Speaker 2: on policy frameworks and regulatory frameworks that seed in some 672 00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:17,840 Speaker 2: of the values that we care about in an open 673 00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:22,080 Speaker 2: and free society. We don't have to give up and say, 674 00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:23,839 Speaker 2: oh man, it's just going to be a gold rush 675 00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:25,520 Speaker 2: and we're going to let the Moon be chopped up 676 00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:29,040 Speaker 2: and be treated in a way that seeds these dystopian futures. 677 00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:32,480 Speaker 2: It really is a moment to say, this is our responsibility, 678 00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:36,320 Speaker 2: this is the time. Let's do some regulatory and policy 679 00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:39,680 Speaker 2: work to try to put a better future in place. 680 00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:41,759 Speaker 2: And I think that that is something we certainly work 681 00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:44,520 Speaker 2: on at Aurralia Institute. There are amazing groups like Open 682 00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:47,360 Speaker 2: Lunar Foundation that are also looking at this. We're certainly 683 00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:50,120 Speaker 2: not alone in it, but it is I think worthy 684 00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:52,799 Speaker 2: of you pressing me on because now is the time 685 00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:54,800 Speaker 2: to figure that out in a principled fashion and not 686 00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:56,840 Speaker 2: wait to see how it plays out and then try to. 687 00:34:56,920 --> 00:34:59,839 Speaker 1: Fix it later. Area con think of a better place 688 00:34:59,840 --> 00:35:00,480 Speaker 1: to and thank you. 689 00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:02,400 Speaker 3: Thank you so much. It is a pleasure. 690 00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:14,680 Speaker 1: That's it for tech Stuff this week. I'm Osvo Looshian. 691 00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:18,000 Speaker 1: This episode was produced by Elisa Dennis and Melissa Slaughter. 692 00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:22,040 Speaker 1: It was executive produced by me Karen Price, Julian Nutter, 693 00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:26,799 Speaker 1: and Kate Osborne for Kaleidoscope and Katrina norvelve iHeart Podcasts. 694 00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:31,320 Speaker 1: The engineer is Kathleen Conti and Jack Insley makes this episode. 695 00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:35,680 Speaker 1: Kyle Murdoch wrote our theme song. Please do rate, review, 696 00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:38,040 Speaker 1: and reach out to us at tech Stuff podcast at 697 00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:38,879 Speaker 1: gmail dot com.